Dating feminists or dating in this age?


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Frederic J. Brown/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

Has anyone else been following the Aziz Ansari story? I haven’t watched his show (though lots of friends recommend it), and so I have no knowledge of his work. We’re in the #MeToo era, so I wasn’t surprised that he got “exposed.” What I did find surprising is what he got “exposed” for doing…or allegedly doing. You can read the original source here. I tend to agree more with this opinion piece in the New York Times.

I read through both articles twice. If it’s true that Aziz Ansari claims that he’s a feminist, then maybe he should have done the feminist thing by letting his date initiate everything, arrange everything, pay for everything, ask permission for everything, etc. But outside of failing to live up to his feminist ideals, I can’t see why he’s such a bad person. He never physically restrained her. She’s not professionally involved with him, so he has no power over her career. She could have left at any time, which she eventually did. There was no coercion or foul play. No laws were broken. Other than perhaps the fact that she was star-struck and that he’s much older than she is–which both people knew well before their date–there were no power imbalances here.

I think Sartre wrote something about this, but when a man asks out a woman, both parties know–or should know–what the man’s intentions are. When a man asks out a woman, his end goal isn’t to find a good drinking buddy or to chill out with her brother. The end goal for the man always involves some form of sex. For experienced people, there is always a question over whether the sex is temporary or permanent. Men and women (rightfully, in my opinion) see some dating partners as marriage material, while others they see as just temporary flings. I’m not trying to lecture people on common sense here, but if you’re a young woman who is asked out by an older, famous, so-far-more-accomplished man, it usually skews towards the latter. But there should be never be a question over whether the end goal involves some form of sex. It does. Always.

Now I don’t know if there has been some sort of cultural change where men have to ask permission for everything they do. I know some colleges require this as part of their dating guidelines, but I wonder if people really follow that. On a purely practical level, I don’t see how it’s feasible to have such strict rules in place. I think people need to step back and think about the world they really want.

46 thoughts on “Dating feminists or dating in this age?

  1. Aziz Ansari’s acts as related by the sole un-refuted witness are the hallmark of the inexperienced male trying to initiate “pornstar” sex because that’s what he thinks works.

    Men and boys who don’t have much experience with women will have very little to go on to guide and inform them. In older times there would at least be a baseline of stability provided by sexual and cultural norms but today, fantasies and narratives permeate the consciousness so much that it is hard to know what is even real, just because of how many others believe in the fantasies.

    Note that in the account at no time does he do anything that she objects to. But he is incapable of picking up on her cues nor seducing her properly. What year did it happen? At that point of time, he had not received proper “instruction” on how to bed strangers, lol. He had to improvise and take risks in a culture and society where the man makes all the moves and bears all the consequences for failure. He had to make guesses in a place where women still dare not voice and affirm what they really want.

    I enjoy much schadenfreude in seeing how a man who accepts the title of “woke bae” (vomit) is then crucified and burnt alive by his very own fans and movement because I know were the shoes reversed he would have no insight nor empathy. Even now, he begs for mercy.

    “But there should be never be a question over whether the end goal involves some form of sex. It does. Always.”

    Aziz Ansari would have said this is the problem. The feminists and identity liberals have built an entire doctrine around it called “entitlement”. The concepts they tried to sell in the nineties didn’t really catch on, so they needed to make it more sophisticated, to appeal to more “woke bae’s”, lmao

  2. Sengge,

    I don’t think the normal rules of courtship ever apply to celebrities or rich people. Who is going to teach him? The rules are different for him no matter what. He’s probably gotten away with what he does more than once. As long as there was no crime involved, there really isn’t much else to say.

    But then again, I know this. He knows this. She should have known this. I think we just need more education here, not more rules.

  3. I don’t think Aziz Ansari is a predator. The pattern speaks more of “clumsy” to me, but that’s just my personal guess. I think famous or not experience will tell you if a girl is not into it and being a cold fish, or needing a lot of energy to coax, maybe it’s just better to do only what she’s comfortable with.

    Maybe it’s better to telegraph that you are VERY interested in sex instead of surprising the woman after a night of “connecting” on interests and “woke bae” ideologies, ROFLMAO

    Yes, I think we need more education here instead of rules. I think the men need the education, not the women. The odds are stacked against them now. The environment has changed but they’re still stuck in old paradigms. They need to be able to understand what’s up in order to evolve. It doesn’t mean they need to follow all these new rules crafted by the neuters. It does mean they need to know what’s going on and how to adapt to a new environment where women no longer “trade” for sex as much as they seek it to achieve some kind of self-fulfilment.

  4. All I see is talk about “cues” , and not a single time did she say “NO.” She even complied when he told her to suck his dick. SMH.

  5. Notty,

    I was thinking the exact same thing. She went that far without any complaint, refusal, or debate. What cues? Aziz said he thought it was consensual, and I haven’t read anyone say anything that would indicate that it wasn’t.

    Sengge,

    That “education” is kind of what we’ve been doing for the past few years. But I think there needs to be a push to educate women as well. If you really don’t want it, say you don’t want it and don’t do it. This “expose” reads like a farce.

  6. LOL! You want to educate the women? That is impossible. That would be “mansplaining”. Feminists will ask why is the burden always on the woman to change her behavior, and not the man? This is misogyny and a hatred of women.

    Why must the woman say “no”? Why can’t the man – Aziz Ansari – instead be trained to “seek consent”? Aziz Ansari did not seek affirmative consent all the way through the encounter. According to the feminists, because he did not get verbal, affirmative consent, that is by definition rape. Asking women to say no therefore absolves men of rape. You would be a rape apologist. You would be defending all rapists all over the world.

    No, they cannot be educated. They have already been “educated” in the victims studies Americans have agreed to let take root in their colleges and universities.

    They must be left to their own fate.

    Of course, if you have a daughter, close female family, a wife or girlfriend you may wish to educate her and also ensure she has the support she needs to handle contingencies that may arise. But “educating” the women in general? You will not even make a dent against the indoctrination that has continued and evolved for decades to reach where it has now.

  7. Men need education and so do women. One thing victim minded women need to be educated on is telling the truth, a lot of the allegations are nothing more than exaggerations, LIEberals, false accusations, slanders and defame. Like that case in Britain where it was overturned, the young man got falsely charged and prisoned for rape, lost years of his life.

  8. Personally, I find the amount of attention (and ink) that some supposedly grown men devote to other men’s private sex lives bizarre. This was one of those stories where I simply rolled my eyes and moved on to the next item in the news. I think most people did the same.

  9. That’s too bad because then you missed what the victims liberals were suggesting he should have done.

    “May I take off my clothes and masturbate in front of you?”
    “May I put my fingers in your mouth like a “V” in order to wet them with your drool?”
    “May I corkscrew those same fingers in and out of your vagina?”

    Fuck’s sake ROFLMAO!

  10. Kiwi, these topics are quite boring to be honest. But millions of women want their voices to be heard, so from the males’ perspective, some guys who are knowledgeable about these topics have the responsibility to speak up to educate others and to provide a counterbalance voice. Not mansplaining, but more of impartiality.

    Thousands take to streets in Women’s March on anniversary of Trump’s 1st year
    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/thousands-streets-womens-march-anniversary-trumps-1st-year/story?id=52483721

  11. Yeah, I’m not sure why Kiwi and NightTown think this topic is boring or irrelevant. It’s the most dominant topic in American social issues at the moment. A solution needs to be found.

  12. LOL you guys haven’t figured it out?
    do you notice men like Brad Pitt or Mark Walberg or Ryan Reynolds have never EVER been accused of sexual “misconduct”? In fact, women drool looking at them naked. The “victims” are always better looking than the “pervs”, but not the other way around, hm…..
    Feminism for men is simply peer pressure, like social smoking. It’s as discriminatory as affirmative action. Men support feminism so they seem cool and women will sleep with them. Women support feminism because they want free passes.
    This is why Trump is the president.

  13. That’s not figuring it out Kyrie. Women are more complex than just simply pretty boys vs. ugly boys.

    What’s important to them is they want equal access to power, and the power players they accused have mostly been men holding power positions, not just simply pretty lead actors. James Franco, Steven Seagal, and Sylvester Stallone were actually eye-candies to the ladies too, but they held important power positions.

    James Franco Filmmaker
    Film producer Adam Fields
    Director-producer Gary Goddard
    Dustin Hoffman
    Showrunner Andrew Kreisberg
    Pixar and Disney Animation chief John Lasseter
    Filmmaker Brett Ratner
    Producer Chris Savino
    Steven Seagal
    Sylvester Stallone
    Kevin Spacey
    Producer Harvey Weinstein
    PBS and CBS host Charlie Rose
    Anchor Matt Lauer
    Gymnastics team doctor Larry Nassar

  14. @ bigWOWO

    It’s the most dominant topic in American social issues at the moment.

    And you know what? That’s a damn shame.

  15. Men and women setting standards in this country on how they want to interact.

    I’m not sure why you think something so important is a shame.

  16. This is yet another one of many reading comprehension failures I’ve had to deal with that I’m expecting this to be a recurrent pattern.

    For me, the fact that the media chose to make a big deal out of a man’s private sex life is already a shame but that’s to be expected these days. The bigger shame is that people are eating it up. In this case, no one was hurt and no laws were broken so beyond that I and likely, most people simply don’t care enough to know what people do in private.

    If there’s a social issue, it’s not how men and women interact. It’s the rise of the victimhood culture you love to blog about. If Ansari’s date felt aggrieved, she could have confronted him directly or she could have shrugged it off. But no, she had to tell the media. She wanted to play the victim and let the world know. Maybe she was hoping to gain something out of this but it definitely wasn’t learning about social norms regarding male-female interaction. Once upon a time, this story would not get this kind of undeserved attention.

    I know women who deal with catcalling. If they wanted, they could confront those men. But they shrug it off because they’re too dignified to let it get to them and they’ve got better things to do. But if we take victimhood culture seriously, women who get catcalled will start to claim they are rape victims before you know it and bring the media into it.

    Like I said, I doubt any of this even applies to most people but given the amount of media attention, this means there is a growing segment of society that cares and they really need to get a clue.

  17. It’s not just ‘private sexual life’ of someone when they’re basically being accused of non consensual sexual activity in a ‘listen and believe’ environment where the mere accusation of sexual misconduct has led to people’s careers being destroyed without any due process.

    It’s also noteworthy and disturbing to see how widespread these accusations are, because if they are true, then there is indeed a widespread problem with harassment that needs to be addressed.

  18. Kiwi,

    There’s no reading comprehension problem. What you just wrote confirms that we accurately understand your position. You think it’s a private issue because you’re only looking at Aziz. You’re questioning society without examining society. You’re not looking at the trends and the history of what led up to now.

    As for your statement that some women are okay with or should have to talk back to a group of men on the street cat-calling them…I’ll just let you think about that yourself for a while.

    Notty,

    Agreed.

    One thing that I found disturbing is that “Grace” is allowed to make these accusations anonymously, while Aziz is left to figure out how to deal with the accusations on his own. He could find a way to surreptitiously leak her identity, but he doesn’t. He’s been a gentleman on that front, which is admirable, given that he is accused of something that really isn’t much of anything.

    On the other hand, many of these #metoo accusations, are met by men who simply say, “I’m sorry, I did something wrong.” John Lasseter? Kevin Spacey? So yes, there is indeed a problem.

  19. I can’t sympathize, because this has been the state of the industry forever. And I do mean FOREVER. Entertainment media is about reaping profits from a mass market ranging from tens of millions, to HUNDREDS within a year. Moguls control access to the market. They also determine what stories are propagated, and who becomes “stars”.

    In places like Korea, Hong Kong, Japan, and other parts of the world, access to becoming a “star”, access to popularity and the market have been closely tied with fulfilling the demands of gatekeepers and moguls. The moguls and the gatekeepers have the power, but the stars and wannabe stars also engage wilfully in sex for favors. I cannot empathise with people like “Asia” Argento who capitalized on this kind of image and reputation to open doors, when others decided to say “No!” and cut ties entirely with the industry.

    When I look at Korea, I think that the power of the fat cats must be broken and all of these executives should be sentenced to suffer jail like the Samsung heir. But it will not be done by American style victims activism. American victims ideals apply only to white people. If it happens to yellow faces that is on the “Asian patriarchy” – which is propped up by American military alliances themselves.

    Look at Park Geun-Hye, the liberal American favorite -the “female leader” who signed legislation to throw Korean women under the bus.

    This “metoo” awareness is only going to benefit people like Ellen Pao – serial white daters – but for you, you will be asked to “give up your privilege” – even if that came from DECADES OF SACRIFICES from yourself and those before you.

    FUCK ‘EM. Don’t dupe yourself into thinking you have any stake in this fight.

  20. I was about to post and saw Sengge’s new post saying something similar in different words, oh well I’ll post mine anyway. lol

    As for your statement that some women are okay with or should have to talk back to a group of men on the street cat-calling them…I’ll just let you think about that yourself for a while.

    I agree with BigWowo on this, that’s way too dangerous.

    When it comes to acquaintance interactions however, they should confront their predators right away to prevent further repeated offenders such as Harvey Weinstein. They had evidence this douche touched a girl’s breasts and the popo let it slide, so he had plenty more years to commit more crimes after crimes.

    I don’t believe the weak and meek excuse that “Oh, Harvey is such a powerful man, too scared to confront him to call him out”, that’s a bogus lie and bs. Some of those girls had agendas and wanted something out of guys like Harvey, some type of tradeoff, a role or something, at the time of the incidents. But years later, they felt they didn’t get what they wanted, what they were after, they felt duped, so they came out of their closets and fingerpointing with exaggerations to spread the #MeToo movement.

  21. There is a dynamic that protects men like Harvey Weinstein and Larry Nassar, and it’s going to turn out that a LOT of people, including #Metoo’ers, were complicit in the silence. It’s not just men. Everybody had their careers on the line.

    It’s typical for the Anglo-liberals to make this about “sex” and “gender” because they don’t want to make it about power and accountability. Accountability is the sole purview of the shareholders, and the people who run the systems that bring in the gold medals that prove American “exceptionalism”.

    People in media, covering Hollywood knew all the sordid details for decades. They preferred to cover tabloid banalities on the stars, because they knew that this shit reduces the humanity of the icons. This was how the stars were “balanced” against people like Harvey, Nassar and other “professional” managers.

    It’s not enough to take down Hollywood. Your liberal press must also go down.

  22. Perverts break rules, for medical clinics the practice of not allowing male doctors or nurses alone in the exam room with female patients have been around since the 90’s. Not only Nassar ignored the rules, MSU knew he did as well. They gave him a warning about it, eventually gave him a pass and still put him on the “honor’ system.

  23. The little shit is definitely guilty. “Intra-vaginal” but without wearing gloves or informing the patient? I bet that son of a bitch never recorded it in his own medical logs as well.

    This kind of abuse thrives in environments where these people can operate with impunity. The national gymnastics team is just such an environment. We have parent sending their CHILDREN to participate in sports that leave them with SEVERE orthopedic injuries in order to achieve some kind of glory. Why wouldn’t they look the other way in the face of sexual abuse allegations? THE GLORY is very important. The achievement, the status, the potential money.

    Please run more articles about the medal mills in China because it helps people at home feel superior. It will help people forget and believe everything has returned to normal.

  24. Back to Aziz, this is an interesting conversation in NPR:

    https://www.npr.org/2018/01/16/578422491/the-fine-line-between-a-bad-date-and-sexual-assault-two-views-on-aziz-ansari

    I’m trying to gather up some sympathy for this view that women are incapable of asserting themselves because of social programming, but come on, this is #2018. Most women, especially ‘woke’ ones, are probably more than up to date on the concept of the Nice Guy (TM), and how women are not required to coddle their feelings, etc, etc.

    Yet now those who want to hang Aziz by the balls are falling back again on that cliche of women as delicate flowers who can’t assert themselves or fear hurting a guy’s feelings (ha! As if men are supposed to believe that). It’s bullshit.

    There’s likely a more complicated reason for her not putting a stop to things more firmly, and I suspect it has to do with the fact that she wanted something out of him, so she was afraid of alienating him perhaps.

    Part of me feels a certain scachenfreude towards Aziz because he positioned himself as a woke feminist, and I suspect he’s more like Hugo Schwyzer than someone who is an honest ally.

  25. I have a few hypotheses and some conclusions:

    1. “Grace” may be sexually inexperienced/repressed and was neither able to assert herself on what she would find pleasurable and wants to happen, nor clear on what her boundaries were because she has seldom or never been in such a situation. She then depended entirely on Aziz to steer the encounter. When the encounter went worse and worse for her, she blamed him.

    2. Ineptitude like Aziz demonstrated is actually very common in young and sexually inexperienced men. If society asks men to take the lead because the woman shouldn’t, why should men be penalized if they lead the interaction to sex, because that is what they want?

    3. Frustrated or unhappy women running a smear on men because of bad sexual interactions which are not rape is common behavior. Usually it is confined to gossip among social circles. Occasionally it spreads to one of those “lists” that supposed sisterhoods keep for each other’s reference. But IDEOLOGY is what allows Identity Marxist media to launch this nuclear attack on Aziz Ansari.

    4. The Aziz Ansari story is their way of activating sleeper code words among the population that Aziz himself had a hand in planting – unquestionable dogma attached to words and phrases like “entitlement”, “rape culture”, “toxic masculinity”, “give up your privilege” ROFLMAO

    5. We should really enjoy watching these jackals and hyenas kill each other. But nothing that has happened in this story is new. Young men must be educated on how to protect themselves from smear campaigns in ways other than living like a monk, which is what the Millennial Feminist wants. Young women must be educated on how to spot and assess dangerous social or dating situations and how to handle emergencies, instead of living in a bubble of oblivious learned helplessness. When I say young men and young women, this excludes the ones already indoctrinated with Victims Liberalism. These are lost causes and their dishonesty will motivate them to twist whatever can be taught because power over people’s minds is what they value, and not empowering others.

  26. Wow, these people sure are cunning. Make her a target of vitriolic attack so that she can become a victim of “toxic masculinity”. Leftist media will get a sure win everybody can walk away happy from this, just like what happened to the outrage over media manipulation that led to “gamergate”.

    Can’t tell if these “millennial” chumps are predictable, puppet on strings or evil masterminds.

    Either way, prognosis is not good: Identity Liberalism will harden and become the new world dogma.

  27. I think I agree that there is an emerging pattern here. It does not bode well for the future.
    – Notty

    Well on the bright side, at least some women feminists are willing to speak out to keep the extremists more grounded.

    Compare the Ansari incident to this hit job delivered by an Asian American feminist against her Korean ex-boyfriend.
    https://medium.com/@Juliet_Shen/work-in-progress-42e9a7b8ade7

    Basically,
    – She admitted cheating on him
    – The couple started having arguments which escalated over time and climaxed with him having a furniture breaking incident (he never so much as made a gesture at her)
    – She broke up and blamed him for making her feel unsafe

    To support her argument she
    – referenced studies that show that in general, domestic violence tend to escalate (suggesting violence against her will eventually be likely due to the breaking of furniture)
    – referenced stats of the high level of AAPI domestic violence
    – noted “that’s just how Korean guys are”
    – noted “aspects of Asian culture that normalise misogyny and abuse”
    – noted the high volume of negative tweets during the 18 Million Rising Twitter about toxic masculinity and misogyny in AAPI communities.

    To top it all off, she was actually confused why all mutual friends sided with him…… Will there ever be a time when a fellow Asian American feminist explain to her that her interpretation of events might be a bit one-sided?

  28. “https://medium.com/@Juliet_Shen/work-in-progress-42e9a7b8ade7”

    What Juliet described in her article has all the signs of a severe escalation into the precursors of physical violence. The yelling and screaming may have been mutual escalation, or it might not have been. But verbal and emotional escalation is a sign of an abusive relationship. The other things cited – the throwing of furniture in attempts to break it – could be attempts at intimidation or are at best unrestrained demonstrations of anger. It doesn’t matter if they were not physically “directed” at her. It was definitely done with the objective of having her as an audience, and these are huge warning signs, because what if the demonstrations and the intimidation no longer work? The natural instinct is to either escalate even further, or dial it down and start it back up again. None of this is good for well-being.

    Textbook cases of emotional and verbal threatening and blackmail are also cited in Juliet’s account. Granted, the boyfriend is not here to defend his account of the relationship, so we will not get the full story.

    Juliet’s article concentrates mainly on being a target of “cis”gender “heteronormative” males. But men can also be victims and targets for abuse in relationships.

    They can already be victims before they enter relationships. They may have been brought up in physically and psychologically abusive households and societies where things like these are the norm and are meted out to partners, male or female, and children. They may internalize the need to CONTROL or this figment that they have exclusive rights to their partner, a fiction given full play in not just mass media but the entirety of society’s messaging in its ideal of the lifetime monogamic partnership. They may be scarred psychologically in unknown ways, because the language and the enquiry is wholly into the male as the aggressor and the view that masculinity is inherently malign and can therefore only be controlled, restrained or neutered.

    When we concentrate only on how men should treat women, the message that is being sent out is that men do not matter. Men can also be victims of abuse and domestic violence. The abuse can come from a partner, a date, your own family, or even the society and the social circles around you. Because men tend to be physically stronger or will soon be, the abuse will be psychological because its payoff in terms of the CONTROL will be stronger and more lasting. But how often can you talk about what you suspect is happening? Young men will be mocked and laughed off for being somehow weak or defective, but the truth is, the mind games surround our existence. They don’t want us to know so that they can have a free rein in programming us. They will shift you from one mode of programming to another once you become aware of the previous one.

    Young men must be given the knowledge and the tools they need to protect themselves first and foremost, before you can even talk about how they should treat others.

    How do you protect yourself from a “cheating” partner? Is it possible that what you wanted from her is not something she promised or wanted to give in the first place? Did she break your trust? Do you have any limits and deal-breakers? What about WALKING AWAY and ending the relationship when your boundaries are broken?

    What about teaching and demonstrating to young men that they do not CONTROL or OWN another person’s personhood under any circumstances, short of war and slavery?

    What about teaching men that their happiness and self-worth is not tied up to your infatuations loving you back, because the infatuations are mirrors of your own needs and not a reflection of who interacts with you?

    If young men can be taught and demonstrated these lessons about who they are and their place in this world, it will be easier for them to relate to the personhood of another.

    Violence in relationships can be ended, but it will not be done through mere indoctrination.

  29. @ bigWOWO

    You’re not looking at the trends and the history of what led up to now.

    If you don’t think the rise of victimhood culture is a trend or has any historical importance in the attention given to this news story, you are being disingenuous.

    You think it’s a private issue because you’re only looking at Aziz.

    Um, duh. The news was looking only at Aziz. That’s why you blogged about him when the media made it a big deal. This social issue has been going on for decades. It took you till now to blog about it. Speaking of paying attention to trends and history…

    As for your statement that some women are okay with or should have to talk back to a group of men on the street cat-calling them

    Except I never said women should have to talk back to groups of men. This is what I meant by reading comprehension failure. Please think before you speak.

  30. Kiwi,

    Everyone else saw what you wrote and correctly interpreted your words, despite your attempts at backtracking and sidestepping and then repeating the exact same thing you originally said. Step back, and read what you wrote with fresh eyes. You’ll see why EVERYONE is reacting to your dismissive comments the way they are. It’s not a reading comprehension problem on our end. Nor is it a miscommunication problem on your end. You really do believe what you’re writing, and you’re way off.

    Like I said, this is an issue that goes beyond this blog. There’s the reason I brought it up. It’s an important issue that needed to be raised.

  31. @ bigWOWO

    Interesting how your statement:

    I’m not sure why Kiwi and NightTown think this topic is boring or irrelevant.

    shifted into:

    You’ll see why EVERYONE is reacting to your dismissive comments the way they are.

    ..and then I get accused of backtracking. That you still haven’t owned the fact that you totally misread my comment on catcalling by “groups” of men or that women “should” respond to them, both words that you put in my mouth, tells me the kind of honesty I can expect on your end.

    There’s the reason I brought it up. It’s an important issue that needed to be raised.

    You’re right. It’s SO important that you only raised the issue when it involved Aziz Ansari. Nothing to do with him.

    Look, I understand you want to talk about setting standards between men and women, which is ironic because your blog post has failed to generate a single female response, but I couldn’t care less about Aziz Ansari’s sexual escapades. I already said the only issue at stake here is the rise of victimhood culture. That’s what I think you need to deal with. For most people, male/female standards are already common sense and they couldn’t care less what Ansari is doing in private, either.

  32. About NightTown…read what he wrote in response. It’s completely different from what you’re saying right now. He read you correctly. He read me correctly as well. He also had some interesting insights to share about the topic.

    Anyway, I’ve got no personal beef with you. I just happen to disagree with you on this point. Victimhood culture is bad, but there are some genuine legitimate complaints that are coming out of #MeToo from both women and men, which is why I think this is an important conversation to have. I posted about Ansari because I thought it was a good example of overreach, while at the same time, I can’t think it’s possible to punish Larry Nassar enough. Many women have been emboldened by #MeToo, which is a good thing. Many of the issues of overreach are also coming out, which is also good.

    Anyway, that’s just my opinion.

  33. I remember a pinboard next to a tray of needles with colorful ribbons attached on public display at my university. Above the setup was a display saying “Stick a Pin if You Know a Rape Victim”. There were very many in the board that it was quite shocking. Obviously, there was no way to prove that every pin represented an actual rape or that a random passerby had placed those pins to give the illusion of rape being commonplace. But I admit that just the act of putting that out there got me thinking, even if it raised suspicions of underhanded tactics. In any case, the implications are unsettling.

  34. At Fox News, where the conservative icons Roger E. Ailes and Bill O’Reilly were accused of harassment, women have received payouts well into the millions of dollars.

    But most of the women involved in the Weinstein agreements collected between roughly $80,000 and $150,000, according to people familiar with the negotiations.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/us/harvey-weinstein-harassment-allegations.html

    These sleezy manifestations happened to both parties from conservatives to liberals, by taking hush money like that where were the concerns for preventing future innocent victims? By them taking hush money is evident enough to be persecuted as complicit to the perpetrators’ crime activities, by allowing serial/repeat offenders free-rein to continue their destruction. There are tons of excuses and alibis from the women’s comments, but I’m not buying it, were the women thinking of prolonged innocent victims other than themselves by accepting predators’ hush money?

    Those perverted men were obviously guilty, but the women aren’t exactly innocent victims as the #metoo movement proclaimed & fighting so hard to deceive people to believe.

    When the money and power stop the harassment suits start.
    – Money, Fame, Power
    – Dignity
    – then Truth. In that order. Those women didn’t care about the innocent victims until the time of mental fortitude is convenient for them.

    Here are some questions for the feminists:
    When women get robbed, do they wait years later to report due to the danger? Or do they confront right away?

    The obvious answer is right away for most women despite the danger when they faced with any crimes, they don’t wait 20 years later to report crimes, so why are sexual assault cases any different?

    By waiting years later, they’ve destroyed pivotal corroboration crucial to the cases (destruction of evidence).

  35. This attack on the motives and purity of the victims – even if one wishes to consider them “alleged” victims – is unnecessary and fallacious.

    Justice is an outcome, and people with less power will accept any outcome available to them.

    Women in show business in such a situation have to assess their own options and the strength of the material support behind them. Many women are in show business for the money in the first place. They have to assess the desirability of sticking to their guns and being shut out by cartels and successive layers of gatekeepers. They have to assess the likelihood of having no further future income in a very competitive industry for taking action. They have to assess if taking prolonged, costly legal action is even an action, and how much they will get out of it even if they get a positive judgement or settlement. Against a person like Harvey Weinstein who has a very large formal and informal network of people to shield him, many of his targets had very little material or social power to challenge his actions.

    Because people assume they know what is justice until the moment they actually have to fight for it, they do not understand what outcome or end goal they have in mind or how they are to make it happen. In the light of that people almost universally settle for what justice they can actually get.

  36. It wasn’t to question their motives or purity, it was to question their honesty to the public. So anyone can question and degrade the BLM movement, anyone can question and degrade the Alt-Right movements, but no one is allowed to sincerely question the #MeToo movement for counterbalance? This is the type of playing the victim card to achieve solace and public guilt, it’s disingenuous for the movement to deceive the public.

    If they were about all those reasons listed then they need to be honest to the public and admit those reasons. Selfish reasons are just that, selfish reasons, like I said I’ve read tons of alibis already and I didn’t buy any of it. Meryl Streep was attacked by the extremist Rose Mcgowan accused Meryl of being complicit to Harvey Weinstein, eventhough Meryl admitted she didn’t know anything. So how does it make Rose look for accepting a known rapist’s bribery hush money, it makes her a complicit, same rationale she accused Meryl of.

    If they’re not about justice for the further subsequent victims, but for cash payments and fame, they need to be honest to the public about it.

    I’ve read that one of the reasons they delayed coming out forward was feeling “slut shame”, this is a legit reason for most rape victims, this would be a legit reason if they didn’t take payout bribery money from known rapists to hush hush. This is not only complicit, but it’s selling their soul and dignity. Which in a way is worse than hookers, hookers sell their souls and bodies, but they are consented. Keep in mind, hookers also have to assess the likelihood of having no further future income because at any moment they can be arrested and imprisoned for a long time without being able to take care of their children. But for the gals in Ho-wood, they can work in other industries too such as dancing, modeling, or even a youtube career.

    Because people assume they know what is justice until the moment they actually have to fight for it, they do not understand what outcome or end goal they have in mind or how they are to make it happen.

    This is why I brought up the “what if women get robbed” scenario, it’s the same difference. Would they go to the popo right away to prevent thiefs from stealing someone else, that’s justice. These women don’t wait 20 years to report robberies.

    Justice is an outcome, and people with less power will accept any outcome available to them.

    In the light of that people almost universally settle for what justice they can actually get.

    The entire #MeToo movement is about justice and victimology, no one knows what the exact outcome of justice is and no one is expecting what the exact outcome is. The movement is about educating and preventing future innocent victims to be more brave to come forward sooner. So they need to be honest to the public and honest in how they’re educating younger women to not partake in bribery, not only it’s complicit but also goes against what the movement stands for.

  37. Families of victims killed by Taliban or American forces routinely accept the cash and aid offered to them by the Taliban or the Americans. There is no case where they refuse the settlement or try to “get justice” for the wrongful killings

    For starters, they need the money. They really do, more so now that the tragedy has occurred to them. But to hash it out further, they are at risk of reprisals and punishment if they don’t take the hush money. Furthermore the families of wrongful killing victims are civilians, not combatants.

    A moral absolutist may insist that they not take the money and that doing so sells out their soul and dignity in some way, makes it mean that the lives of their loved ones can be bought, and that they are mercenaries who would rather accept cash than restitution, bla bla bla.

    This is terribly out of touch with reality.

    The reality is: the terms of justice are dictated by the ones with power. Justice is not dictated by what the victims ask for and what they can get. It is dictated, advanced, negotiated or regressed by the people in control of society, and this is where you decide what kind of justice you want played out in your world. This is not an endorsement of “metoo” by the way. Justice is a hell of a lot more than chest thumping virtue signalling and mob outrage. Justice hinges on truth and stakeholders must demonstrate they have the capacity to find it.

  38. The full context was about “slut shame”, taking bribery money is the opposite of that, shameless, much uniform to streetwalkers that shamelessly sell their bodies.

    My entire first post was not about “justice”, it was about the #MeToo movement’s agenda. Their goal was to advice and educate younger victims to be more brave to come forward sooner. I never mentioned the word justice in my 1st post, I don’t know how you misinterpret my post to turn out about justice.

  39. Hmm, ok. Thank you for the explanation. This clarifies many things to me and I should like to return to it at the soonest.

    For now I would just like to interject that I do not think we should stigmatize prostitutes.

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