Can We Have an Honest Conversation on Black-on-Asian Violence?

I’m writing this blog post for a number of reasons. First, it behooves me to mention some of the issues that more recent Asian American immigrants and immigrant human rights organizations have been dealing with. If you look at 4:46 of the video above, that’s a news story that has not been passed around by most of the Asian American blogosphere. If you read the typical Asian American blogs, it’s like it never happened. They only want to talk about how Peter Liang shot Akai Gurley.

Second, I wanted to take on Snoopy’s statement that

“a double standard where criminality with Asian American victims is ignored by Asian American activists, in favor of Black crime victims (especially when the police are perpetrators) is not reasonable.”

It (the double standard) is certainly not “reasonable,” but it obviously exists. It obviously exists on Snoopy’s wife’s site, where I’ve never seen a single discussion of Black-on-Asian crime. But truth be told, it also exists here on bigWOWO. I don’t think I’ve ever posted on the topic of Black-on-Asian violence, although I’ve posted on the usual Peter Liang stuff. I wanted to step up to Snoopy’s challenge because it’s clear that we all have to do a better job. I hope Snoopy will do the same. Let’s create the “dialogue” that the Left is always talking about.

Third, we need to have a discussion about culture, past, present, and future. Honest dialogue. Isn’t that what the Far Left is always saying they want?

So let’s first narrow the field on what we’re discussing. We’ve got both Asian and Black commentators on this blog, so let’s begin by saying it has nothing to do with us personally. The Black commentators on this blog are all either middle-class and above, and they’re not the ones attacking Asian people. The Asian people on this blog don’t work in restaurants or live in poor areas (at least not anymore), so they’re not the ones being attacked by Black people (although there is a case currently going on in my area with Black gangs targeting East Indian families, violently tying up these Indian families in their own homes, and stealing their money and jewelry.). But although we’re not talking about the people posting on this blog, there’s a war going on out there. This war has been going on for generations, and it’s the war on Asian immigrants by certain segments of the Black population (the people who Chris Rock says are fighting against Black People).

I don’t think we should wasted time arguing over whether this trend exists. I expect that Snoopy will act reflexively by denying it, and I don’t blame him. But it certainly exists. Chinese immigrants are being attacked, and they’re being targeted. We commenters can change the topic whenever it comes up, but our silence aids and abets these violent, horrific attacks on innocent Chinese immigrants. Hey, you all know that I’ve been against identifying these attacks as part of “Black culture.” I don’t believe there is a single Black culture, nor do I believe that most Black people commit these horrific acts. But I do think that it helps no one to pretend that there isn’t a trend here, and that this trend is resulting in lots of Asian people’s lives being destroyed. The trend exists. The trend is a certain demographic of Black people attacking Asian people. We need to call it what it is.

There’s this case, posted by Aardvark, in which a Black man attacked, choked, and raped a 51-year-old female immigrant from China. The violent rapist said something to her in a Chinese dialect after having his way with her. She was clearly targeted by this damaged Black male, much the same way the damaged Tyrelle Shaw did the same thing.

And there’s this one, where three Black men broke into a Chinese woman’s home. See Oshay’s commentary below:

There’s also this one, where a Black woman destroys property and assaults an Asian storeowner:

Or we have this from just last week, when Black criminals lured, beat, and robbed a 52-year-old Chinese deliveryman.

I personally know immigrants who have gone through this kind of violence. Hell, two Black men once mistook me for an immigrant and tried to do the broken glasses scam on me, which is almost always a Black-on-Asian crime. Asian lives matter but because so few of us speak out about it, there’s no movement to get people to acknowledge Asian lives. Ironically, it’s often the Far Left Liberal Asian American activists who most strongly object to the idea that Asian lives should matter. This is the double standard.

I could go on and on, but there’s no reason to do so. The Black people on bigWOWO are not from those communities, nor are the Asian people, so I think we can afford to remove ourselves personally. What we can’t afford to do is to change the subject whenever the issue comes up. People are literally dying, getting beaten, getting robbed, and getting raped. Black lives DO matter, but so do Asian lives. When you watch these brave immigrants standing up for themselves and their loved ones, one can’t help but to applaud them. Many of them don’t come from democratic countries, and yet they’re already standing up to make their voices heard.

As for the complaints about the YG video (which looks like it has been taken down)…I don’t think that that one video is responsible for these attacks. They’ve been going on for a very long time. It even happened back in the day when my grandfather owned a laundry. He had Black customers whom he loved, but he was also targeted by others. I think it’s good to fight the symbolism by protesting the YG video, but let’s also point out what this Black-on-Asian crime wave is–it’s become part of a culture in certain Black neighborhoods.
What we need is acknowledgment. We need to acknowledge that a trend exists, and that that trend is cultural. Nothing less will suffice. We need to fix the culture. Black people in the inner city need to fix the culture. They need to stop raising their children to violently attack, beat, rob, and rape innocent people. When you’re rapping about targeting Chinese people for robbery and celebrating violence that your community has perpetrated against immigrants in real life, that’s a problem.

You may ask–why make a race issue out of this at all? Why not just say that it happens in poor areas? The answer is that if we’re trying to stop the violence and bleeding, that’s not effective. Truth is that this kind of violence does not happen often in poor White areas like Appalachia, nor does it happen in working-class White neighborhoods in places like Brooklyn and Queens. Certainly violent White people exist, and in my younger years I had the pleasure of tangling with some of them in bars and on the street, but rarely do they specifically target us, except for the Rice Chasers, which we already complain about and which is already very well-documented. Brave souls like Michael Nutter have already touched on cultural pathologies and have in fact discussed it in the context of race. Even Obama has stepped into the waters by talking about black fatherhood. But there has been silence from us on the Black-on-Asian issue. There has been silence on the games and targeting from that demographic, such as the broken eyeglasses scam or the targeted rapes of Asian women or the targeted beatings and robbings of Chinese deliverymen or the targeted looting of Asian-owned convenience stores. We need to call it what it is. Otherwise it’s never going to stop.

280 thoughts on “Can We Have an Honest Conversation on Black-on-Asian Violence?

  1. Thanks for being brave enough to post this on your blog, bigWOWO.

    I think you’ve neglected to mention a major contributor to the mentality of “certain demographics” (not just black youths) seeing Asians as easy targets. Specifically, the white mainstream media establishment that promotes racial hatred against Asians/Asian Americans and the current anti-China bashing on hyper-drive. The white mainstream blames Asians/Chinese as scapegoats and the Fangs’ protected URMs get brainwashed by it easily.

    For example, the USC slayings of foreign Chinese students is another example: whereby the white establishment deflects attention away from their own greed: University of Spoiled Chinese kids giving them money and not giving anything to the neighborhood that’s slowly being gentrified and driving out the poor in the South Figueroa corridor. So the media and establishment find it much easier to blame the least empowered group in USofA and that sub-textually makes it “open season” on Asian immigrants.

    The next point I want to make is that while the perpetrators are mostly poor kids, the victims might not be. While it’s true in those neighborhoods poor people have more interactions and the infamous Korean liquor stores are being targeted because of the aforementioned resentment, let’s not forget lots of the home invasions and robberies are against middle-class Asian families. There’ve been robberies and EXECUTIONS of families in the past and anyone can become victimized.

    Lastly, there are also Asian gangs that target Asians/American Americans and sometimes the language barriers and shame don’t get reported. Which is why it’s imperative that these organizations that supposedly looked out for Asian/Asian American interests actually do what they claim they’re about and not toe the SJW party line.

  2. I don’t know what you guys have been doing, but the solution is simple enough. FIGHT BACK.
    You, especially the asian men, got to be aggressive, combat ready at all times. You don’t let any white, black, hispanic, banana get away with anything. Any aggression from those troublemakers shall be retaliated with greater force. Every asian should own guns to protect themselves. Asians only have themselves to rely on, we got to stick together, no other races will come to your rescue. Think about the asian community every time you hesitate to fight back, if you let it go, the culprits will keep doing it with greater confidence, meaning the next asian will get it worse than you, and then they get more people to do it, the next next asian will get it even worse,…….
    Stop the infighting among yourselves, and unite against discriminatory social injustice. Go out and protest, be an inconvenience to other people to raise awareness. People will notice us.

  3. Aardvark,

    Thanks, man. It was a hard post to write, and it took me over two days. You have to walk a fine line between stereotypes and the hard reality of racial targeting that is taking place in these communities.

    And yes, I agree with everything you say. The mainstream media definitely doesn’t help.

    As for the fact that not all victims are poor, there’s a lot of truth to that. I guess I didn’t emphasize it because it doesn’t happen as often, but yes, it happens, and it arguably happens often enough. We had a crime spree here where Black youth were targeting East Indian families. In one case, they attacked when the family was home. They tied them up and pistol whipped them before taking all their money. What kind of thugs beat up families? They’ve already got the money, so why get violent? The answer is that their culture teaches them that that’s acceptable, and that Asians (and Whites) deserve no humanity.

    Again, it’s not a condemnation of Black culture. It’s a condemnation of a certain kind of culture that takes place in some Black communities. If we don’t fix this at the cultural level, these poor Chinese immigrants will continue to be targeted for murder, beatings, and rapes.

    Kyrie,

    It doesn’t work. For example, this woman “defended” herself from the same game:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/02/21/video-shows-washington-state-store-clerk-in-shootout-with-armed-robber.html

    (I put “defended” in quotes because she took a bullet. The robber actually got the best of her.)

    But then two months later, her husband was involved in a shooting while defending the same store. It sounds like he was a bit too trigger-eager, which is understandable given what his wife went through, but now he’s on trial for murder:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3520520/Min-Sik-Kim-clerk-Spanaway-Washington-gets-charged-second-degree-murder-shoplifter-Jakeel-Rashon-Mason-two-months-wife-Seul-Lim-pulled-gun-armed-robber.html

    I don’t know if you’re being facetious, Kyrie, but violence doesn’t solve a problem with violence. The answer to Black-on-Asian violence is not Asian-on-Black retaliation. That only ends up in more lives being destroyed–both Black and Asian lives. The answer is for the Black-on-Asian violence to stop. And I think the first step is to recognize that despite what the SJW’s are saying, it’s a real problem with the culture in certain communities.

  4. Byron,
    That thug deserved to die. He knew that the owner had a gun, he probably knew his wife was shot by his homies a few months ago, he knew the man was very angry at him, did I mention he knew the owner had a gun in his waistband ? YET he still grabbed the cigarettes on the way out ? It’s very evident that the thug wasn’t afraid of anything and nothing would stop him from committing a crime. He was a danger to civilized society, and Mr Kim did the world a favor by eliminating him from the gene pool (hopefully the thug didn’t have any children that he might or might not know of)
    Mr.Kim is a real hero. He stood up for what is right, for justice. Unfortunately, he is not the first nor the last hero who goes to jail for life for doing the right thing. We should seriously protest if the man is convicted.
    I know you advocate using common sense and not irrational emotions to solve the problem, but look around you, how many people nowadays use common sense ? Can you really apply common sense in a world driven by irrational emotions ? Would thugs and racists listen to your logical persuasion ?
    I know this is a long fight for justice, but you gotta protect yourself, your family, your fellow asians first. I’m not advocating for violence, I’m advocating for survival. We don’t look for troubles, we stay away from troubles as much as we can, but with us asians troubles sometimes keep following us cuz we’re asian, they think we are easy preys. At some point this nonsense gotta stop, we ain’t gonna lay down and let racism walk all over us, we ain’t no second class sub human. We do what every other living humans do, we protect ourselves from harm.

  5. Speaking as someone who has existed within Black communities all my life, Id say that I’ve bumped into very little outright hatred of Asians, by and large. There is resentment at times, particularly when Whites have used Asians as their Model Minorities, in order to emphasize Black inferiority and White Supremacy. Of course, some members of ALL races hate people of other races (Racism) just because of who they are. And that is ugly no matter who is doing it. And yes, some Black people do it too!

    But if you look at the numbers, the primary recipients of Black criminal violence are other Black people by a VERY large margin. So when you hear about an Asian person being mugged or beaten by Black hoodlums, you can be sure that about 90% of the time those same hoodlums are mugging Black people. If Black hoodlums rob an Asian store or home, you can be sure that about 90% of the time, those guys are robbing Black stores or homes. This does not make the crimes any less heinous, but it does contextualize who is being targeted.

    Asians often conclude that they are being specifically targeted, when what’s really happening is that they are simply being exposed to the same game of crime roulette as everyone else is who lives or does business in certain neighborhoods. Often Asian immigrants find themselves beginning life in America living in close proximity to ghettos or barrios. They often have shops or small businesses within poor ethnic communities. People go into these shops all day long spending money. It doesn’t take long for local criminals to figure out that hey, “That Chinese guy MUST have a lot of money… What time does he leave the store at night?”

    But the reality is that Black shop owners (where they still exist) are robbed as often or more often. So are Black criminals racist? YES they often are! But they are no more racist to Asians than they are to Blacks. Count the number of time a Black thug shouts the word “nigger” at another Black person when he’s holding them at gunpoint and demanding their wallet. And believe me… it’s NOT a term of endearment. If the person they’re robbing looks to be Gay, they are going to be called a “#@!&$ faggot!” If it’s a woman, she is going the be called a “bitch.” So, Black criminals (like most criminals) are racist, sexists, classists, and homophobes. That should not be a big surprise, but they are all of these things fairly equally to every group.

    There is no excuse for this, as nobody should be a racist, but the point is that the racism isn’t specifically targeted to Asians. Neither is it predicated upon the platform of Blacks being superior and Asians being inferior. It’s just the kind of false bravado and intimidation tactics that criminals use to cow their victims and buoy their own daring to show who is in control.

  6. What about the level of violence meted out by black perpetrators to non-black victims, when compared to black victims in robberies?

  7. It (the double standard) is certainly not “reasonable,” but it obviously exists. It obviously exists on Snoopy’s wife’s site, where I’ve never seen a single discussion of Black-on-Asian crime. — BigWOWO

    Obviously, this means you aren’t paying attention.

    Suspect Arrested in Brutal Beating of 83-year-old Man in Santa Ana

    NYC Assailant Appears to Be Targeting Asian American Women in Attacks

    Suspect Identified in NYC’s Serial Assaults Targeting Asian American Women

    Sunday’s attack means last 3 victims killed in NYC by being pushed into subway tracks were all Asian American men

    But more than that, Reappropriate discusses crimes committed against Asians by other groups as well.

    Man Charged with Hate Crimes in Robberies Targeting Chinese American Women | #ModelMinorityMisogyny

    Hmong American man brutally beaten by hunter following trespassing dispute

    So you’re clearly mistaken, BigWOWO. You took over two days to complete this post, but in your rush to racialize criminality, in your fury against progressives, you make incorrect statements that fail basic fact checking after less than two seconds on Google.

    Want to have a real dialogue on crime? Let’s do that. But to characterize the discussion around Black perpetrators and Asian victims is observer bias. You’re cherry-picking criminal cases to make this claim BigWOWO. This should concern you, since accuracy isn’t exactly your strong suit.

  8. @bigWOWO

    Again, it’s not a condemnation of Black culture. It’s a condemnation of a certain kind of culture that takes place in some Black communities. If we don’t fix this at the cultural level, these poor Chinese immigrants will continue to be targeted for murder, beatings, and rapes.

    I think this type of ChineseMom rhetoric is really walking on eggshells. While it is true and I definitely agree that most of the types of black-against-Asian crimes we’re talking about here (robberies, rapes and homicides) are due to the perception that Asians are easy targets, I think it’s a bit too far fetched and prejudiced to think “culture” has anything to do with it rather than deranged individuals.

    Don’t forget there are tons of Asians that also prey upon Asians, especially low income immigrants. The ethnic media reports it a little bit, but of course the white mainstream media completely ignores it. I would say it’s more indentured servitude and sweatshop type of abuse, but nonetheless there is exploitation.

    I think the main point I’m trying to make is that these SJW types never really cared about Asian/Asian American interests and only latch unto the mainstream media sanctified issues in order to profit for themselves.

  9. @King,

    If Black hoodlums rob an Asian store or home, you can be sure that about 90% of the time, those guys are robbing Black stores or homes. This does not make the crimes any less heinous, but it does contextualize who is being targeted.

    Asians often conclude that they are being specifically targeted, when what’s really happening is that they are simply being exposed to the same game of crime roulette as everyone else is who lives or does business in certain neighborhoods.

    I can understand the outrage in early rap and hip-hop about the popo and economic problems and fight the injustice. And there are unfortunately so much issues this sick country refuses to fix because of greed. However, how can anyone (especially the SJWs) ignore Rapper YG’s “Meet The Flockers” where the message is so blatant?

  10. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    Want to have a real dialogue on crime? Let’s do that. But to characterize the discussion around Black perpetrators and Asian victims is observer bias. You’re cherry-picking criminal cases to make this claim BigWOWO. This should concern you, since accuracy isn’t exactly your strong suit.

    Notice that except for the 1st article where no such BS hyperbole like “toxic AM misogylinity” is applied to the perpetrator, all the other ones are about AF victimhood and race has nothing to do with your racist lies.

    This is exact double standard that everybody calls you out for, you scream “cherry picking” but then you do the exact same thing on far worse levels than anybody else.

    Hypocrisy is “James (Hypocrite) Lamb-Fang’s” middle name!

  11. YG’s “Meet The Flockers” lyrics:

    First, you find a house and scope it out
    Find a Chinese neighborhood, cause they don’t believe in bank accounts
    Second, you find a crew and a driver, someone ring the doorbell
    And someone that ain’t scared to do what it do
    Third, you pull up at the spot
    Park, watch, ring the doorbell and knock
    Four, make sure nobody is home
    They gone, okay it’s on
    Don’t be scared, nigga, you’re in now
    If the police come you gonna find out who your friends now
    That ain’t them talking, that’s your mind playing tricks on you
    You’re conscious cause you know you got nines with two clips on you
    But fuck that, motherfuck that plasma
    And fuck that laptop, go and get that jewelry box
    You tryna get paid?
    Go take that jewelry box to the Slauson they’ll give you cash back

    Meet the motherfucking flockers
    Make some noise if you’ve ever stole something in your life
    Don’t be ashamed, it’s okay, baby
    Make some noise if you’ve ever stole a dollar out your mama’s purse

    Niggas don’t know the history ’bout the fly
    Put the flathead in the door, pull it, make it go fly
    Hit the first drawer, grab a nigga some socks
    That nigga in the car better be listening to that box
    Ay, I ain’t staking out shit, nigga
    Eeny, meeny, miny, moe and ding dong ditch
    Ain’t a safe I can’t crack, nigga, that’s on Crip
    I’m with my Pirus from Compton, we gon’ pass and get rich
    50 racks, three niggas, 65 a split
    Let some weeks go by, we at the dealership
    I never took notes nigga, I need the pinkslip
    Hit Icy, Mac and Ave for my bullshit
    Spent about ten cash
    Jumped in the whip and did the whole dash
    D-Loc my nigga my nigga, hit my first lick
    Passed with my niggas at!

  12. “How can anyone (especially the SJWs) ignore Rapper YG’s “Meet The Flockers” where the message is so blatant?”

    Well, up to now, I have ignored him (I’m assuming a male) because I have never heard of him before. I doubt if most Blacks have ever heard of him before. He’s one racist rapper who evidently get much radio play and doesn’t get on the charts. He’s clearly not very popular, and will be a forgotton nobody in 3 years time.

    But I agree that if SJS are aware of him, THEY SHOULD SPEAK OUT ON IT and condemn the fool.

    “What about the level of violence meted out by black perpetrators to non-black victims, when compared to black victims in robberies?”

    You can quote any news story about violence meted out by black perpetrators to non-black victims, and I will go and find you many more examples of the exact same or greater violence being meted out to black victims including women and children.

    BELIEVE ME these guys care NOTHING about both of you sharing the same skin tone. They will beat someone within an inch of their life even if they were an old black grandma on her way to church… AFTER they have already taken her purse! Luckily this is not a very large percentage of black people, or even black criminals, but they are the kind of things that make the papers and the internet.

    I’ll say it again. By the numbers, the people who black criminals are targeting is other black people. sometimes other people get it too, but to a much lower degree tan fellow blacks.

  13. @King,

    No offense, since you’re much more level headed and respectful commenter here than James Lamb-Fang, but some of your comments seem more like deflection rather than addressing the issues.

    True, while the overwhelming victims of black criminals are other black people and the media ignores the plight of African American struggles, it does seem off topic to this debate and also you can make the argument that the media sensationalism about “#BlackLivesMatter” then ignores the alt-right tactic of black-on-black violence as more “problematic” (at the social aggregate) than popo corruption.

    There are thugs, criminals and lowlifes in every community/population, including Asians. But the crux of this thread topic is the SJWs ignoring the black-on-Asian violence issues but go to crazy lengths to highlight and spew against “toxic Asian misogylinity anti-blackness” at every chance they get all the while ignoring Asian American victims.

    Ben Efsaneyim has wrote several great blog posts about this and the SJW focus on some imagined Asian anti-blackness racism. I particularly like to point out the one he wrote about the Chinese QiaoBi laundry detergent ad: while it’s offense, it’s nothing like the news story of the rape of the 51year old Chinese lady, which has no crocodile tears indignant outrage in the SJW hashtagtivism circle whatsoever.

  14. King wrote:

    I doubt if most Blacks have ever heard of him before. He’s one racist rapper who evidently get much radio play and doesn’t get on the charts. He’s clearly not very popular, and will be a forgotton nobody in 3 years time.

    But I agree that if SJS are aware of him, THEY SHOULD SPEAK OUT ON IT and condemn the fool.

    It’s hard to imagine that these SJW who use the same social media outlets to push their agendas don’t also monitor the same social media outlets for reactions and trending conversations:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/10/21/a-2-year-old-rap-song-has-drawn-criticism-from-asian-americans-whats-behind-the-push-to-ban-it/

  15. “No offense, since you’re much more level headed and respectful commenter here than James Lamb-Fang, but some of your comments seem more like deflection rather than addressing the issues”

    In what way am I deflecting?

  16. This article was just posted in my news feed and it’s completely abhorrent that the corrupt NYPD isn’t going to look into it.

    Instead of castigating Liang over and over again and constantly blaming “toxic Asian misogylinity anti-black racism” against Asians, why aren’t the SJWs calling for blood against white mainstream popo?

    Why doesn’t the NYPD use non-lethal means for these melee confrontations?

    http://nypost.com/2016/10/20/ag-will-not-probe-fatal-nypd-shooting-of-mentally-ill-woman/

  17. I don’t think that’s what my argument is doing.

    What I’m saying is that by my own limited observation and experience, I’ve never been around a bunch of Blacks that have been down on Asians. The biggest prejudice that I have experienced in the Black community against Asians is the prejudice of assuming that Asians are prejudiced. That doesn’t mean that no deeper prejudice exists, I’m just saying that it has not shown itself to me beyond my reading news articles about certain individuals.

    So what I was pointing out is that interracial violence (Black on Asian) does not appear to be driven by widespread Black prejudice towards Asians, but rather by proximity to bad Black neighborhoods where EVERYBODY gets robbed or beat up by the criminal element, especially Blacks. This demonstrates that Asians are not SPECIFICALLY targeted but are instead caught up in a crime pattern that includes other races as well.

    Please demonstrate my illogic.

  18. Mainstream places like nytimes always seem to focus on the most (relatively speaking) “trivial” shit when it comes to racism against AAs and it annoys the shit outta me.

    Wake me up when they talk about historical enemy imaging and it’s impact on AA’s today (including the gender dynamics ppl here complain about,) unconstitutional surveillance and harassment of AA scientists like Xiaozing Xi, my dad, etc

    if you think “where are you really from?” is the most serious racism you’ve experienced, well, I don’t know what to say

  19. Focusing on the most bullshit “micro aggression” does nothing for the realities of government / police state violence and mob violence against Asian Americans today.

    People forget that Asians are also attacked by the police state just like Blacks… the FBI targeting a scientist is materially like a city trooper targeting a teenager.

    And that just like the police ignored the KKK in the South, the police ignore when Asians are attacked by mob violence especially mob violence from other POC which is conveniently constructed as not racist because allegedly poc can’t be racist.

    It’s still important because even everyday racism against blacks, Latinos, and even Muslims are frowned upon far more but this kind of thing is still shocking widespread. Issues like simmering Sinophobia that will eventually replace Islamophobia or the Asian quota in many universities are still big problems but this is the kind of thing that underlies those larger ones.

  20. There’s another side of this that’s worth address. Asian Americans do not deserve to be crime victims. No one does, sure, but this debate begins with crime victims, and no one should take that lightly. I certainly do not.

    I disagree with the idea that anti-racism activists on the Left overlook Asian American crime victims; certainly articles found on Angry Asian Man and Reappropriate do not. That being said, this nation has allowed criminal elements to metastasize in particular low income communities of color, largely through housing discrimination. Before integration, upwardly mobile Black Americans couldn’t move away from criminal elements in their communities, because we were barred from housing opportunities in safer neighborhoods.

    Consequently, mostly Black residential enclaves abound, especially, but not exclusively, in lower income urban settings. In contrast, many Asian Americans today live in racially mixed settings, where they constitute numerical minorities locally. When Asian Americans live in stable, upper class neighborhoods, they live among White families, and when thy live in poorer, lower income neighborhoods, they deal with lower income Blacks and Latinos.

    Given this, when Asian Americans are robbed, or beaten, or worse, it’s likely to come from assailants who do not share their race. When Black Americans are robbed, beaten, or worse, those violations are likely to happen because of the actions of other Black people.

    The point here is that crime statistics often illustrate the social separation caused by housing discrimination, nothing more. Most criminals, without regard to race, victimize those closest in proximity to them. Certainly no one wishes harm on Asian immigrants, but the crime that affects their number results from their inclusion in high crime, low income neighborhoods, by and large.

    There’s no evidence of a cultural predilection toward assaulting and robbing Asian immigrants. That’s observer bias. What does happen is urban blight caused by housing discrimination and high urban unemployment, coupled with excessive militarism from law enforcement agencies tasked more with containing criminality within low income neighborhoods than preventing or eliminating criminal activity within those neighborhoods.

    BigWOWO, I respect your honest interest in this issue. I think that the way to combat the criminal activity none of us wish to find in low income neighborhoods is to first grapple with the history that created these low income neighborhoods.

  21. I think that Snoopy brings up some good information about the root of the problem. Black ghettos were essentially created by White society. They simply made it impossible for Blacks to live and open businesses anywhere else but in the poorest and least desirable sections of the city. For a century they kept Blacks penned up in often overcrowded, undesirable area with rampant prejudice-induced unemployment and unfair legal systems. These were bad conditions that bred resentment, contempt for authority, and anger in many. But even so, Black ghettos were tempered by the presence of the trapped upwardly mobile, the educated, and the righteous Blacks of the day. However, after the Civil Rights Movement, many who could do so poured out of the ghettos to claimed their place in American Society in neighborhoods previously barred from them.

    But that left the ghettos without the lawyers, the doctors, the businessmen, the dentists, the preacher’s, the undertakers and as much of the working class as could afford it. The result of the Civil Rights Movement on the ghettos was to leave them to those who were least successful and adaptive to the mainstream of American society. Therefore, the ghettos became known for high crime, dysfunction, and pathology. To be sure, most of the people still living there were just stuck. But they were subject to the violent, the indolent, the dishonest, and the corrupt.

    I’m not exactly sure why, but for some reason, Asian immigrants often ended up landing with businesses in Black ghettos. So they too are subject to the same violence and dysfunction as everybody else who lives in these neighborhoods. Is it right? No, it’s not right FOR ANYBODY living or working in the ghetto. But that has become the reality of what has happened there, following over a century of their formation by White social policy.

    In most cases, what happens there is not the result of Blacks (by and large) hating Asians and going after them with angry violence. It is the result of Asians ending up in a bad area that even successful Blacks have long abandon. If you live or work in a high crime area with a high Black population, then you may at some point be exposed to crime from a Black criminal. This is only logical. BUT that doesn’t mean that your race is being specifically targeted in the vast majority of the cases.

  22. The key word is “target”.

    As targeted the victims of Black crimes, criminals, we Asian immigrants are still supposed to support BLM, otherwise we are anti-black racists. The victimhood culture in this country only teach Black people to be the victim, but conveniently forget to teach them about empathy or anything else. That is one of the major reasons that this culture produces so many violence black criminals in such a wealthy and advanced country.

    http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/nevius/article/Dirty-secret-of-black-on-Asian-violence-is-out-3265760.php

    In this report (http://www.dailybreeze.com/general-news/20160826/gang-members-suspected-of-5000-burglaries-arrested-in-torrance-led-police-raids), the race of victims— “Asians”, were buried in the middle in a three-line paragraph:

    “Asians were targeted by the burglary crews. Gang members would check for Asian names on targeted streets and look for shoes left on porches, a sign that an Asian family might live there. Gang members, police said, believed Asians kept money in their homes and “had the best gold.”

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/07/03/asians-bleed-a-lot-racial-violence-in-rochester/

    http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Philadelphia-Robbery-Businesses-Home-Invasion–389553181.html

    http://www.abc10.com/news/crime/asian-community-in-south-sacramento-say-theyre-being-targeted-by-robbers/311463129

  23. chinesemom, as I have carefully said above “MOST of the time” it has nothing to do with race.

    Notice I did not say ALL of the time? Sure, anyone can find examples of individuals of any race TARGETING members of another race.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1448727/Pakistani-gangs-are-targeting-us-say-fearful-black-youths.html

    But that means nothing unless you can establish that the pattern is widespread and consistent. For example, Blacks are targeted by Latinos a LOT more than Asians are targeted by Blacks.

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2007/latino-gang-members-southern-california-are-terrorizing-and-killing-blacks

    But it’s still a relatively small group of Latinos and does not represent the ‘Race.” We don’t go the the Mexican consulate and say, “Why are you people targeting us?”

  24. Uuuh no, we don’t have to keep asserting that Asians aren’t being targeted for crime or violence.

    That is counter-intuitive, when you consider that ALL over the world, populations and individuals that are seen as outsiders, who are seen as vulnerable and isolated, IMMEDIATELY become favored targets for criminal elements.

    Let’s get a few things out of the way though. The idea of black people as a whole targeting Asian people as a whole for crime would be false.

    But what does the occurrence of Black on Asian crime tell us? Is it something that is merely a matter of no significance because black criminals by and large, statistically even, victimize other blacks more? What about Latin gangs targeting and TERRORIZING black people? Is this also a matter of no significance?

    The stupid conclusion would be to conclude that the actions of a criminal class represents an entire racial demographic. But it would not be true to say that race has nothing to do with victimization by criminals. It does, it is a factor, every textbook on crime will mention this.

    What I want to know is why is it taboo to talk about this is mainstream discourse?

    Let me throw out a question.

    How do you determine if something that occurred is a hate crime? What are the criteria that must be met for it to have that classification?

  25. Aardvark:

    I think this type of ChineseMom rhetoric is really walking on eggshells. While it is true and I definitely agree that most of the types of black-against-Asian crimes we’re talking about here (robberies, rapes and homicides) are due to the perception that Asians are easy targets, I think it’s a bit too far fetched and prejudiced to think “culture” has anything to do with it rather than deranged individuals.

    If it happens once or twice or even ten times, you can write it off as “deranged individuals.” But when you see multiple…hundreds…thousands of instances that follow racial trends–the targeted rape of Chinese women, the beatings/robberies of Chinese deliverymen, the broken glasses scam–it’s not reasonable to assume that these deranged individuals would invent these games themselves and happen to follow the same trends as individuals. When you see movies being made about killing Koreans and songs being written and performed in front of audiences that glorify invading Asian homes, it’s not just deranged individuals. It’s a culture.

    King,

    I agree that Black-on-Asian crime is less than Black-on-Black crime. I also agree that MOST Black criminals do not target Asians. But I do think there is significant targeting of Asians. The whole deliveryman thing, or the rape thing–even Jenn documented those (although, as usual, from the Leftist perspective, it’s a race thing from the victim’s end by not the perpetrator’s end). “You broke my glasses” is a Black-on-Asian scam; it doesn’t seem to happen with any other combination. So yes, while I agree that Black-on-Black far outnumbers Black-on-Asian crime, I don’t think targeted Black-on-Asian crime is an insignificant number. Couple that with the fact that there are movies and songs made about this racial violence, and it seems that there are some pockets of sub-culture that do focus on taking from Asians.

    Snoopy:

    Both Jenn and I have posted the stories that you linked, but up until now, NEITHER of us had posted “a single discussion of Black-on-Asian crime.” I had pretty much avoided the discussion of race until now, while Jenn has avoided the same discussion. Actually, if memory serves me correctly, Jenn actually banned people for bringing up the subject. Yes, we’ve BOTH posted on news items that discuss instances of Black-on-Asian violence, but neither of us had discussed the trend of Black-on-Asian violence itself. So my original point still stands.

    I’ll answer the geography question below. Also, please see what I said above to King and Aardvark about culture.

  26. King (and Snoopy),

    Asians were often subjected to similar housing discrimination prior to the Fair Housing laws. Even in a place like Portland, a Chinese American friend’s mother had to knock on doors and ask permission before she was allowed to buy a house in her neighborhood. Granted, it wasn’t as bad as what Blacks faced since Whites were more likely to give their permission, but people still said no.

    As I mentioned, poverty doesn’t necessarily result in high crime. We’ve got poor White areas AND poor Black areas where I live, but the poor Black areas are more dangerous. Even though Portland is the Whitest city in American, the criminals beating and robbing East Indian families aren’t White people; they’re Black people. Remember that most of these East Indian families are here on H1B visas; they make good money and live in good areas. So from the perspective of proximity, they don’t live anywhere near the ghetto. As Aardvark mentioned, it’s not just Portland either.

    Even Chinatowns have been historically poor, and they go through the same flight that poor Black areas go through. Children become professionals and move out. The lawyers, accountants, doctors, and other powerful people move out. But even then, you don’t see the same level of crime in Chinatown, nor do many of the children in those communities target and violently attack people from outside those communities (although other scams are common). I’d like to say it’s partially culture, but I think it’s all culture.

    Keep in mind that I’m looking at this from the perspective of what can be done. I think King is right to point out that Black victims of Black crime are much greater in number than non-Black victims of Black crime. But the numbers of those non-Black victims are still HUGE. The questions in my mind is:

    a) Can we acknowledge this? and
    b) What can we do about it?

    I think (a) is probably the harder question for most people to answer. I know it was harder for me.

  27. Let me add one more thing about the rapper YG. I don’t know who he is.

    Nothing he wrote in that song was an original idea. He didn’t create a brand new thing or a groundbreaking concept. He’s a rapper, rappers think they are “artists”. They create art, they sing about life, they sing about the things that influence their life and their work and their art.

    What influences did he draw on for his song “Meet the flockers?” What inspiration? What zeitgeist?

    Considering it deals with the commission of crime, and a specific targeting of victim based on ethnicity, is this a trivial matter?

  28. Do I think that Asians are ever targeted by Blacks? Yes.
    Do I think they are routinely targeted by Blacks? No.

    Do I think that the incidents of targeting are not discussed? I would say that they are as discussed about as often are Latinos targeting Blacks. They are brought up, but certainly not in the mainstream or racial discussion.

    How do you determine whether something that occurs is a hate crime? Well, there are State hate crime and Federal hate crime statutes. They all differ. Of course they tend basically to follow tis guideline: A hate crime is committed on the basis of a person’s race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, and disability. I’m not sure if it matters if it is opportunistic rather than aggravated.

    To me, all hate crime laws should be discharged equally against perpetrators of all races. If not than we should not have special hate crime laws at all.

  29. ChineseMom posted some interesting links.

    Sengge brings in a very interesting perspective. He lives in a part of the world where racial discrimination takes place on a government level (Yes, it also happens in the U.S. with Affirmative Action, but it’s much worse where he’s from).

    King,

    I know I’m posting a whole lot at the same time, but check out what I just posted about the numbers. I’m still of the belief that people like you and me have no control over what other subcultures who share our race do, but I also think that we have to acknowledge the targeting that takes place too often.

    Think about the broken glasses scam. First, you’ve gotta strategize and talk to people to find out what has worked and not worked. Then you’ve gotta go out and buy the equipment (glasses). You need to break them. Then you need to bulk up and work out so that you’re large and scary enough to get Asian immigrants to pay up. THEN…you gotta put the work in by walking around the city and trying to scope out your marks. That’s a lot of work to invest in a job that only targets one group of people. I don’t know that these scammers would even have enough time after all that to go after other Black people!

    Of course I’m just joking by portraying this as a legitimate business plan, but in terms of planning and execution, it’s similar to legitimate business plans. My point is that it happens so often and takes so much investment that we’d be crazy in cases like this to portray it as an equal-opportunity crime. They go after Asian people like Siggy in Chinatown.

  30. Hate crime laws exist, but the problem is, I think at least in the Anglosphere, people are not clear why they are needed at all.

    We have a few disconnects and gaps in our understanding of hate crimes.

    You can have a law, but what about the fine details and the implementation? What does an investigating officer look for to determine if a hate crime has occurred? How does the prosecutor build a case? How does the judge decide? King is right: these laws and their enforcement should at least be uniform and consistent.

    The second disconnect is: people obviously know that hate crimes exist. We acknowledge that it exists. The media at least brings it up every now and then and “educates” people on the bare basics of what a hate crime is.

    Does the public know when a hate crime has occurred? Can they differentiate between crime that is not based on hate, versus one that is?

    On the one hand, there are reasons why a special category of crime has been created in more legal jurisdictions than merely the Anglosphere: a problem and type of criminality has been detected; the categorization of this new type of crime should help society deal with the problem. But does the society understand the problem and why it matters to them, even if they are not the targets?

  31. Byron, I think the difference historically between poor White neighborhoods and poor Black neighborhoods is that Blacks were actually trapped in poor Black neighborhoods. A White family or individual could simply move somewhere else and recreate themselves. They could get educated, or start a business, or join the military and advance socially. There were always examples of White people leaving those places and finding success elsewhere.

    For Blacks, there was not some American city where Black people were considered equal that they could go to. There were not mainstream colleges that they could attend. There were not businesses where they could go an make an equal living. The ingredient that made Black ghettos worse was a level of hopelessness that was always much deeper than in poor White neighborhoods.

    As for other ethnic neighborhoods, they were smaller and younger than Black neighborhoods. The exception would be Native American reservation which were even more hopeless, more given to crime, poverty and dysfunction than Black neighborhoods. The pattern seems to be that longer a group was subject to grinding hatred and discrimination, the worse off they fared.

    You make a good point that these acts of violence against Asians don’t always happen in the ghetto, but they do MOST of the time. And most of the time that is where the perpetrators come from. I venture to say that if you checked the rap sheets of criminals who have harmed Asians, you would not find that their crimes were exclusively against Asians. It is my guess that you would find many, many more Blacks and Whites as previous victims.

    All of this is not to, in any way, excuse the actions or to make the case that Asians are never targeted by Blacks. In the statements above both Snoopy and I have both said MANY TIMES that we disagree with ANY violence or crime, that it is wrong, and that it should not be tolerated. My statements are just to say that in many cases, proximity or bad luck puts Asians in crime’s way, just like everybody else. Occasionally Asians are targeted by Black criminals, and when it happens, of course, it is wrong and should be punished.

  32. “My statements are just to say that in many cases, proximity or bad luck puts Asians in crime’s way, just like everybody else. ”

    Except that is not true, therefore everything you and Snoopy have written about housing discrimination is not relevant.

    Everywhere else in the world, minorities or outsiders that live or work in close proximity to criminal gangs and populations, IMMEDIATELY become favored targets for said criminals and gangs.

    It is the victim typing and the way that criminals choose their targets: minorities and outsiders are more likely to not know anybody in the area, they are likely to lack resources and the numbers to fight back or defend themselves, they are likely not to know the language well and so cannot communicate or report a crime, and they likely do not understand the law or legal system so they cannot work to get redress.

    To assert that the minorities and outsiders face the same threat profile and risks of non-minorities in a high crime area is simply not correct. Everywhere else in the world, they would be targeted for criminals and singled out for crime.

    Claiming that minorities and outsiders face no special risk profile or no special targeting by CRIMINALS flies in the face of everything known about crime.

  33. “Everywhere else in the world, minorities or outsiders that live or work in close proximity to criminal gangs and populations, IMMEDIATELY become favored targets for said criminals and gangs.”

    Are you saying (for example) if I and a small group of Blacks immigrated to Indonesia, and settled near criminal gangs that we would probably be targeted by said gangs?

  34. “Sengge brings in a very interesting perspective. He lives in a part of the world where racial discrimination takes place on a government level.”
    Where does he live ?

  35. “Are you saying (for example) if I and a small group of Blacks immigrated to Indonesia, and settled near criminal gangs that we would probably be targeted by said gangs?”

    Absolutely. You would be marked immediately. They may even seek you out across half a city if they know about your presence. Ideally you should have something worth taking, but even if you did not, you would be a good selection for criminals that need something to prove. The pre-teens wanting to be a full member for example, or the lone burglars that just need an easy mark to get away with the crime with.

    Depending on their hatred for black people, and this kind of hatred might have to be built up by propaganda turning into ingrained attitudes, they may also single you out for exceptional violence in the commission of the crime.

    You would also be singled out for all sorts of scams and schemes because they assume you don’t know how things work in Indonesia, with the right amount of pressure on you, playing on your greed, or just plain suggestibility they can get you to part with your money.

  36. Hmm… Ok, perhaps I haven’t taken that aspect into account.

    But in the U.S. Asians are moving very often into a much more racially mixed environment. They are essentially moving into a majority White country with pockets of racially homogenous neighborhoods here and there. They still stick out in the ghetto, but it may be a bit different nevertheless, I’m not sure.

    Second question. In my afore-mentioned scenario, if I moved into a neighborhood with Asian criminal gangs nearby, night I also fall prey, not because of race, but because criminal gangs do criminal acts and I just happen to be there? Or would it always be a result of racial targeting?

  37. “Second question. In my afore-mentioned scenario, if I moved into a neighborhood with Asian criminal gangs nearby, night I also fall prey, not because of race, but because criminal gangs do criminal acts and I just happen to be there? Or would it always be a result of racial targeting?”

    I can’t speak in absolutes, so to say “always” would not be correct.

    Crime doesn’t just happen, individuals and groups actually have to act on criminal intent and employ methodologies to commit crime. Although environment and proximity to criminals will explain an aspect of crime, it cannot be used to explain all of it. Blanket assertions about motive cannot be made, but neither can they be simply dismissed out of hand because that would be tantamount to denying the criminal agency required in the commission of crime.

    Some things will stick out if you’re an incidental victim versus one who has been specifically targeted because of race or outsider profile. Is the nature of the crime different from that suffered by a typical victim? What is the level of violence employed, what is the level of vindictiveness, sadism, humiliation or torture employed by the perpetrator(s)? What is the rate of criminal victimisation of your community (or profile) per capita compared to that of other communities or profiles? Has your community or profile been specifically targeted for any specific types of crimes or scams? (Things like these makes a specific type of targeting stand out. A crime motivated by hate and racial/targeting will tend to be more serious and devastating to the victim/ victim communities.)

    One more thing to observe to see if a crime is “incidental” versus targeted… is there an existing, latent or manufactured body of hate propaganda directed against you?

  38. “Some things will stick out if you’re an incidental victim versus one who has been specifically targeted because of race or outsider profile. Is the nature of the crime different from that suffered by a typical victim?”

    I agree. This kind of information would be hard to ascertain. Because all levels of violence occur with all manner of victims. In fact, the MOST violent acts occur between people who know each other, particularly if they have been in a relationship. The emotions are higher and thus the violence is more intense.

    What would be necessary to find out if these incidents were purely racial rather than proximal would be a large database categorizing all the crimes that have been committed by race and with an accompanying metric for levels of violence. But to my knowledge, no such database exists. And the propaganda point is also relevant and makes sense.

    Of course, there could also be a racial component to a crime not necessarily based on “hate.” For example, if I know that Hassidic Jews own diamond cutting businesses in New York, and I also know that on Saturday mornings they will be at temple, I may begin burglarizing the homes of Jews in NY on saturday morning… Not because I hate Jews, but because I love money and have no scruples about how I acquire it.

  39. On an individual level, if a criminal consistently burglarizes the homes of Jews above other available options, it can be surmised that at the minimum that individual has a preference. On a little bit of a higher macro level, if the homes of Jews are being burglarized at a level where they have become some kind of preferred target for neighborhood criminals, then it could be assumed the Jewish community has become a de facto target.

    What influences the selection of Jewish homes as a target? I don’t know why someone would burglarize a diamond maker’s home? Is it possible that diamond cutting equipment and its spare parts are more valuable and resalable than the actual diamonds themselves, which would probably be kept in heavy vaults under armed guard?? Is it possible that Jews in New York would keep cash in the bank, so one would be left trying to fence rather expensive looking but bulky items for 20% of the resale price instead of acquiring cold hard cash???

    The idea that Jews are rich because some of them cut diamonds would be a stereotype. The idea would have come from somewhere, and it would be propagated in spite of the facts, in some way. At a surface level the commission of the crime would appear to be motivated entirely by greed and ignorance.

    On another level, when crimes go wrong, and criminals are desperate and frustrated, when they torture, rape or kill their victims because of resentment or rage over a perceived racial rich/poor disparity, or some other reason involving a perception of race, then another side of crimes like these would be displayed.

    I would call a crime targeting Jewish homes as it is. The assumption that Jews would be a choice target is racial selection and targeting. When the victims are subjected to torture, rape, humiliation and murder, above and beyond the “norm”, it will be necessary to investigate to what extent racial hate plays in such serious crimes… and then decisive measures must be taken to STOP such crimes from occurring again.

  40. But is there a difference between these two lines or reasoning? And does it matter?

    Line 1: Hassidic Jews are more wealthy, on average, than many other identifiable groups. If they are diamond cutters, then we might assume that their wives have a reasonable collection of diamonds given them over the years in their jewelry boxes. Hassidic Jews also keep the Sabbath strictly, so they are not likely to be at home on Saturday morning. Therefore, the burglary of the homes of Hassidic Jews is probably going to be more profitable to me than random selection.

    Line 2: I hate Jews. They are always taking advantage of everybody and they own the media and run the world. These filthy Zionists deserve to pay for thinking that they are better than everyone else! I will enjoy breaking into their houses because it hurts and terrifies them! And besides, all Jews are thieves, so I’m really just taking back stuff that they have stolen from others. Screw Jews!

  41. Also a little note about the value of statistics: well collected and accurate statistics would be extremely valuable. But if we can’t get them, it would be a mistake to conclude that nothing can be demonstrated or proven without them.

    If it comes to something as serious as hate crime, or racially motivated ones, it would be a severe cop out.

    To be honest I don’t even know what is a hate crime law. I was hoping that someone who lives in a country with such a law could enlighten me how it is enforced in practice, as well as what the purpose of such a law is.

  42. “Line 1: Hassidic Jews are more wealthy, on average, than many other identifiable groups. If they are diamond cutters, then we might assume that their wives have a reasonable collection of diamonds given them over the years in their jewelry boxes. Hassidic Jews also keep the Sabbath strictly, so they are not likely to be at home on Saturday morning. Therefore, the burglary of the homes of Hassidic Jews is probably going to be more profitable to me than random selection.”

    Diamonds have almost zero resale value. They sell for like…. 10% of the resale price? Which means you end up selling the diamonds back to the Jews who distribute and sell them at retail prices in the first place?? This seems to me like terrible economic sense… of course I don’t know what fences actually buy diamonds for, nor do I know what other attractive options for burglary exists, so I cannot be certain of the value of this line of thinking… maybe the Jews living in this neighborhood will get burgled again and again by single-burglary robbers, and their diamonds will be given back gratis by another cousin in the trade.

    “Line 2: I hate Jews. They are always taking advantage of everybody and they own the media and run the world. These filthy Zionists deserve to pay for thinking that they are better than everyone else! I will enjoy breaking into their houses because it hurts and terrifies them! And besides, all Jews are thieves, so I’m really just taking back stuff that they have stolen from others. Screw Jews!”

    Well, I have heard some rhetoric where non-black minorities setting up shop in black neighborhoods are accused of appropriating and extracting the wealth of black people.

  43. My scenarios were not so an inquiry into the favorability of diamond thievery as to explore the idea of racial motives versus racist motives. Suffice to say that people steal diamonds, (see Kim Kardashian) they do have some value. So I’m just using that as an example.

    But when it comes to motives I think there is some difference between racial motives and racist motives. Certainly in both cases the diamonds are still gone when the families return home from temple. But in one case the criminal is operating on opportunity, when in the other case the criminal is operating hate. The difference is that if the opportunity were removed (Say they kept all their jewelry in a safe deposit box) then the criminal simply moves on to another opportunity elsewhere. But if the crime is based on hate, then the criminal desperately seeks to find some other way to harm his victim which he hates. There is no moving on because the crime is not opportunistic but personal.

  44. It’s about time Bryon took my advice and turn to a more relevant topic. It’s not the white people doing these things to Asians. It’s the black people inflecting untold violence on Asians. Asians should start an Asian Lives Matter protest against the black community. Don’t forget about the rape of Asian females by Black males. Say what you want you simply don’t hear about whites doing this type of shit to Asians or any other races like Hispanic and Indian people. It’s time to address this problem head on. Good job Byron. I commend you.

  45. @ bigWOWO

    Even in a place like Portland, a Chinese American friend’s mother had to knock on doors and ask permission before she was allowed to buy a house in her neighborhood. Granted, it wasn’t as bad as what Blacks faced since Whites were more likely to give their permission, but people still said no.

    How do you know that? Housing discrimination against Asians is almost identical to that against Blacks, only Asians are trending worse over time whereas the situation for Blacks is improving.

    http://www.huduser.gov/portal/Publications/pdf/HUD-514_HDS2012.pdf

    http://www.nationalcapacd.org/press-room/asian-americans-face-significant-housing-discrimination-according-study-us-department-hou

  46. Yes, Asian Americans do live in more racially integrated neighborhoods than Blacks, but that is a function of their smaller population size and higher income levels. So by sheer demographics and economics, Asians will inevitably be less segregated, even though they face the same racial barriers in housing as Blacks. In fact, Asian neighborhoods are becoming more segregated with time whereas Blacks are becoming less segregated, in large part due to Asian immigration.

    So I do not buy this (false) notion that Asians have it any better than Blacks in housing opportunities.

  47. Thank you for explaining King, it makes sense. I shall ruminate on the distinction even further.

    *Ruminates*

  48. Kiwi, the point behind the housing discrimination concern in this debate is not the state of housing discrimination today faced by Black and Asian Americans, but the state of housing discrimination over time, and how that discrimination designed the low-income, high crime areas within inner-city minority communities.

    The ghetto, is essence, emerges from public policy decisions, not some cultural reason.

    Further, exposure to those low-income, high crime neighborhoods places all small business owners and citizens at risk. Racial affiliation does not matter here; poverty and geography does. As King has discussed, Asian Americans who live and/or work in low-income, high crime areas have greater risk of being victimized by criminal who live in those areas.

    But none of that dynamic should lead anyone to the false notion that Asian Americans are being targeted by Black criminals. It’s simply not borne out by the facts. What’s happening is that criminals within low-income, high crime neighborhoods target local citizens, without regard for race. This will include a small percentage of Asian Americans in those spaces, and include a massive percentage of Black citizens in those spaces.

    There’s no special Black-on-Asian crime problem. There’s a low-income neighborhood crime problem, and that concern disproportionately affects Black people.

  49. BigWOWO et al.,

    This debate revolves around the perceptions of some Asian Americans that Black Americans target them when committing crimes. In reality, this perception is neither real, nor provable. So those who disagree with this perception like King and I must show that, by and large, Blacks do not target Asians as crime victims.

    To do this, it’s instructive to recall the points raised about housing discrimination, concentrated urban poverty, and Asian American neighborhood distribution discussed earlier. Recall that the point is not only that Blacks were concentrated into low-income, high crime areas that they could not leave before integration, but also that racial enclaves that most Black Americans lived in fifty years also house most Black Americans today.

    In contrast, many Asian Americans today, generally speaking, trace their families’ emigration to the United States from the mid-1960’s or later, and more specifically the 1980’s or later if we’re speaking mainly of Chinese Americans. Notice that these Asian American population increases occur post-integration, after housing barriers in suburban White neighborhoods were relaxed. Obviously, there are massive historical caveats with these generalizations, but the point here is that many Asian Americans today have little to no experience living in the sort of racially concentrated ethnic enclaves Blacks experienced for generations, especially in families with high income levels. Those families diversify White neighborhoods.

    Further, most criminals victimize those closest to them. Low-income urban Blacks do not rob in gated suburban communities anymore than rural White drug dealers sell crystal meth to inner-city crackheads. It’s just not happening. Call it a proximity theory, but everything we know about criminal sociology leads us to believe that criminals hurt those within their communities.

    Given this, it’s no surprise that Asian Americans have the lowest rate of violent victimization among all racial or ethnic groups, the lowest rate of property victimization among households of all racial or ethnic groups, and are the least likely to experience serious violence among all racial or ethnic groups, from 2002 through 2006. While finding statistics on criminal offender race can be difficult, some ‘race realists’ have compiled that material, using government statistics.

    In a report from American Renaissance that mostly highlights the disproportionate number of criminal offenses committed by Black people, criminal victimization by population is compared against the race of the criminal offender, using data from the U.S. Justice Department’s National Crime Victimization Survey. The listed races/ ethnicity are White, Black, Hispanic, and Other, which aggregates Asian Americans, Pacific Islanders, and Native groups. Now, if the fears about Black-on-Asian crime targeting are correct, the statistics should reflect that phenomena.

    What do we find? Between 2012 and 2013 there are 440,741 annual victimizations of persons in the Other category, mainly Asian Americans. Of that number, Blacks account for 19.3% of those crimes, Hispanics account for 10.6%, and people in the Other category account for 20.3%. Whites are responsible for 40.3% of the crimes inflicted against Asians, according to this analysis.

    Now, these aren’t my numbers, and the report as a whole argues that Black Americans are responsible for much of the crime in this country. But in this debate, the claim has been made that Blacks target Asians to commit crimes against them. However, this data suggests that most of the crime that Asians endure comes from Whites, followed by other Asians. This makes sense, since many Asian Americans live in closer proximity to Whites than members of other racial groups.

    The perception that Blacks harm Asians with criminal activity will continue to persist. But this claim lacks any statistical basis. It’s simple fantasy. Meanwhile Whites violate Asian Americans and their property with impunity. They are, lest we forget, your friends and neighbors.

  50. @ Sengge

    …As I am also ruminating on your point—Immigrants and outsiders are always targeted. That too makes a lot of sense.

    I would not say that Black criminals don’t target Asians. I would say that in many cases (not all) their motives are opportunistic. I think there is difference between that kind of violence, and kind inspired by hate and racial supremacy. It is still abhorrent, disgusting, and inexcusable. It just lacks the kind of longer-term philosophical motivation that supremacy and hate bring to the table.

  51. …As I am also ruminating on your point—Immigrants and outsiders are always targeted. That too makes a lot of sense.

    This maybe true in Sengge’s Singapore, but definitely not in mainland China. One clear example is Black immigrants in Guangzhou, China, they are not targeted by anybody. In every big cities in China, there are a lot of migrant workers from rural countryside or other small cities, none are targeted by the locals. Actually, crime rate in China has been extremely low, even when we were all very poor, usually migrant workers commit more crimes than locals.

    In essence, traditional Chinese culture extremely against aggression and violence, I think 2000 years of Confucianism flush out those genes from our blood.

  52. In essence, traditional Chinese culture extremely against aggression and violence, I think 2000 years of Confucianism flush out those genes from our blood. — ChineseMom

    An exceptionally ignorant and ethnocentric statement.

  53. @King,

    Against better judgement I am going to say the following two things.

    (1) You can make your argument stronger by providing some evidence that the criminals (same ones) targeting Asian homes are also targeting Black homes in numbers reflecting the respective population.

    I think its ingenious to compare with the overall crimes against the general Black population. I hope this much is clear. You cannot argue Hitler was not anti-Jew by looking at killing of White Christians by some other White Christian people unrelated to Hitler. And say look White Christians killed everyone not just jews.

    Lets focus only on the Black criminals targeting Asian, and try to answer if they selectively target Asians or not.

    (2) Your dichotomy into motivation is problematic. You present it as simply Black criminals targeting Asians because they might be led to believe that Asians keep cash and jewelry at home.

    What if I as an employer pass over Black for Asian American applicants for IT jobs because I am led to believe you know Blacks. I mean no harm. I am only looking for opportunity to get some good hire.

    There is news about Blacks targeting Asian homes in North Carolina now … where are the Asian thugs robbing Black lawyers and doctors when you need them.

  54. I do not know how it is possible to disprove the claim that Black criminals target Asian Americans by disaggregating Black criminals who target Asian Americans from the larger set of Black criminals. The assumption that certain criminals exclusively target individuals from particular races has not been proven; in essence, that’s what we debate.

    Further, I think it’s telling that White supremacists like the fol at American Renaissance find Black criminality a scourge upon the nation, but do not find Black criminals to be the main antagonists against Asian Americans. If people who unabashed bias against Black people cannot locate the statistical basis for the claim that Black criminals target Asians, then isn’t it further likely that such evidence does not exist?

    Anyone who believes that Black criminals target Asian Americans needs to provide more than cherry-picked news stories and anecdotal prejudice to support this claim. Otherwise the ‘honest conversation’ dies before it begins.

  55. “I do not know how it is possible to disprove the claim that Black criminals target Asian Americans by disaggregating Black criminals who target Asian Americans from the larger set of Black criminals. ”

    I suppose it will require some thinking. How about investigation of the criminals targeting Asian homes that are already in police custody? It would be telling to know how many Asian homes they have targeted vs Black homes. Just a random thought.

    In any event, bringing in ALL the crimes faced by Blacks from ALL the Black criminals hijacks the discussion just as whining about who has it worst. Because thats not what is being discussed. Otherwise, I will have to wait to hear from that one person on planet Earth who has it worst, first.

    Try again. Think some.

  56. Two problems with that idea John Doe: presumed innocence and sample size. Many people in police custody have not been charged with crimes. Further, once charged, tried, convicted, and sentenced, felons still do not have an incentive to offer a candid assessment of their crimes, as they could still be charged with further crimes should they confess to other felonies.

    Given this, even a widespread study would likely yield few interviewees. Next, corroborating their stories would prove massively difficult. Whatever interviews you’d conduct would still be words from criminals, with low assumed veracity without extensive fact-checking, draining resources from your study, all to establish accuracy from a self-selected sample of felons willing to speak with researchers, truthfully.

    Further, there’s no control group, given what you suggest. No, it’s much more sensible to take existing statistics to determine how often Asian Americans who are victims of crime interact with Black perpetrators. The scant evidence we have of this suggests that White and Asian criminals are more likely to victimize Asian Americans than Black criminals. This casts strong doubt on the claim that Black criminals target Asian Americans, John.

    Think about it.

  57. Black people in the inner city need to fix the culture. They need to stop raising their children to violently attack, beat, rob, and rape innocent people. — BigWOWO

    BigWOWO, how exactly do you imagine this occurs? In what ways would any parent raise a child to harm anyone? Given this rendition, you imagine multigenerational acceptance of criminal behavior from young people among a particular racial population. What evidence do you have for this?

    Because we do find violent criminal behavior in Appalachia, just as it proved common in working class White neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens; late nineteenth century NYC tenements were filled with closely-packed Irish and Italian immigrants who endured rampant criminal activity among their population for decades. Movies like Gangs of New York and The Godfather cast this criminal element as heroic protagonists, but the narcotic sales, numbers rackets, and gang warfare on which these films are based terrorized White urban populations for decades.

    But when Black criminals thrive in low-income urban settings, suddenly certain observers rush to cultural judgments to characterize the urban Black family as dysfunctional and broken, willing to teach criminal behavior to its young people to harm the so-called innocent immigrant.

    Again, I very much doubt anyone in this debate who believes that Black criminals target Asian Americans will discard that belief after engaging this debate. But that idea is fatally flawed. There’s no evidence that Black criminals target Asian Americans; there’s plenty evidence that all criminals target those nearby as victims, and that the public policy that created low-income urban settings also concentrated and contained high crime rates within those settings.

    Asians are not being targeted by Black criminals. Isolated incidents over decades, cherry picked along with errant lyrics performed by D-list rappers with anemic fanbases, have been highlighted to foster interracial disdain and paranoid fear of criminal Blacks.

    This is a lie is service of prejudice, nothing more. Black criminals aren’t targeting Asian Americans. Frankly, Black people simply do not think about Asian Americans that much, as most Black people live in areas with very low concentrations of Asian Americans.

    White criminals, on the other hand, present a real danger to Asian Americans, given the statistics, but the only time White people are challenged on this site is when they date Asian American women. Priorities.

  58. King,

    No, it is the opposite. If those Chinese immigrants were really aggressive and violent, and carried out attacks on other racial groups for no good reasons, those two reports would tell more details about those attacks instead talking mostly about irrelevant sweatshops and other things.

    From limited information provided by the two reports, my educated guess is those Chinese immigrants lack of aggression and violence genes, they once again fall victim to thefts, burglaries and possibly rapes committed by those racial groups (if you know crime statistics in Europe, you will know what I’m talking about). Those Chinese immigrants don’t speak Italian language, don’t know the local laws and politics, and they don’t know how to get help from local law enforcement agencies, so they took things in their own hand. I guess things were really bad that they had to organise vigilante patrols in their neighborhood. It is really out of Chinese character.

  59. Kiwi:

    I’m pretty sure if you talked to White people during that era, you’d find that most would rather live next to an Asian family than a Black family. If you’re asking me for numbers, no, I don’t have them, and I don’t know if they exist. But if you look at the general trends, I think it’s somewhat safe to guess that housing discrimination was worse for Black families.

    Take for example my grandparents. They bought a house in what used to be a working class neighborhood that was mostly Italian. There were regular Italian people there, but there were also Mafia people there. The Mafia were fine with Chinese people moving in next door. They felt that Chinese people took care of their homes and would mind their own business. They were not okay living next to Black people.

    I have no numbers, but let’s just say I heard stories of how the Mafia persuaded Black people to live elsewhere.

  60. King,

    I think you and I are in agreement. The targeting happens, and yes, it’s most likely more opportunistic than anything else. But in a community that isn’t used to such violence, the repercussions can be devastating.

    I also know that most victims of Black crime are Black. That’s undisputable. But even if Asians endure a small percentage of all Black-perpetrator crime, and even if an even smaller percentage comes from Asians that are targeted because of their race, it’s still got a huge impact on people who aren’t used to that. The hurtful thing is of course the crime itself, but I think what’s even more hurtful to our community is that people can’t discuss it. Nobody wants to feel like they’re racist, but without discussing it, it feels like we’re basically dooming that community to live in constant fear of rape, violence, and robbery.

  61. @Snoopy,

    Inability to do good science is not a license for doing bad science. Yes, science is hard. Sorry.

    So, lets not talk about ALL the crimes against Blacks by ALL the Blacks as a first baby step. Lets keep the focus on criminals targeting Asians. From what I have read, seems like they are targeting Asians like those Blacks looking for and killing a Chinese businessman in his car.

    The following makes sense to only you, and perhaps King. Is that what they call deflection. Please tell us more how life sucks to be Black.

    “Further, there’s no control group, given what you suggest. No, it’s much more sensible to take existing statistics to determine how often Asian Americans who are victims of crime interact with Black perpetrators. The scant evidence we have of this suggests that White and Asian criminals are more likely to victimize Asian Americans than Black criminals. This casts strong doubt on the claim that Black criminals target Asian Americans, John”

    Remember: Good science.

  62. Snoopy:

    BigWOWO, how exactly do you imagine this occurs? In what ways would any parent raise a child to harm anyone?

    What a fantastic opportunity to learn about inner city black culture, Snoopy. Check out Oshay Duke Jackson’s YouTube channel. Learn from a guy who actually lived it.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCueWAuV35HS-pkoKt0rmhbA/search?query=mothers

    Anyone who believes that Black criminals target Asian Americans needs to provide more than cherry-picked news stories and anecdotal prejudice to support this claim.

    I’m not sure if you saw my notes on the Broken Glasses Scam or the targeted rapes of Chinese immigrant women, but if you didn’t, it’s up there (in both the OP and the subsequent comments). Even your own wife identified Tyrelle Shaw as someone who was “targeting” Asian American women. Targeting happens. It happens A LOT. There’s no reason to say that it doesn’t exist. This is one of the few times when I’d refer someone to reappropriate for the facts, but if you need a link to Tyrelle Shaw, I’ll send you there.

    You and I can’t really do much with those numbers you posted since there’s no “Asian” category. I mean, really. If I posted something that listed “Other” and made the argument that they meant “Black,” you wouldn’t accept that. So we shouldn’t either. I…sorry…choking on a peanut. If I posted that White people and “Other” have a discrepancy in test scores, therefore affirmative action shouldn’t discriminate between Asian and Black, you’d be up in arms because Chang would be taking your seats. But because it helps your “argument” here, you’re willing to Otherize us. That makes no sense.

    I also think you need to keep in mind that there’s probably also a psychological difference between stranger violence and acquaintance violence. Let’s take rape, for example. I read a statistic that most rape is intra-racial, except for Native women and Asian women, who are more often raped by White guys (yes–more than Black guys.). The reason that White-on-Asian rape is high is that most rape is date rape or some form of that, and Asian women often date White men.

    But more importantly, pay attention to the news. Like John said, there doesn’t seem to be much violence going the other way, so I’m not sure what your point is in denying that it’s happening. Certainly most Black crime has Black victims, but that doesn’t negate the TONS of Asian victims of Black crimes. Just use Google and you’ll see:

    https://www.google.com/#q=asian+homes+targeted

    Check out the first one.

    http://www.abc10.com/news/crime/asian-community-in-south-sacramento-say-theyre-being-targeted-by-robbers/311463129

    According to the report, there are perhaps HUNDREDS of such incidences of people targeting Asian homes. If you look at the video, you’ll see that once again it’s Black-on-Asian.

    Right now, I’m not trying to get you to fix the problem. I’m trying to get you to acknowledge the problem.

  63. @ King

    I would not say that Black criminals don’t target Asians. I would say that in many cases (not all) their motives are opportunistic. I think there is difference between that kind of violence, and kind inspired by hate and racial supremacy. It is still abhorrent, disgusting, and inexcusable. It just lacks the kind of longer-term philosophical motivation that supremacy and hate bring to the table.

    Arguably, the vast majority of Germans who perpetrated the Holocaust did so for opportunistic reasons, not ideological reasons. That still doesn’t change its long-term ramifications on Jewish history in Europe.

    In the same vein, the looting and burning of Korean shops by Blacks during the 1992 Rodney King riots shows that even though the racial targeting was mostly opportunistic, the long-term impact on Korean American history in Los Angeles was nevertheless profound. The same thing happened again to Chinese and Arab shops during last year’s riots in Baltimore.

    Even during the Japanese American internment, there were Blacks within the NAACP and the National Negro Business League who supported the mass incarceration of their fellow citizens because they saw it as an opportunity to steal the Japanese-owned farms in California that the government was clearing off.

    I would say the two things go hand in hand. Opportunity merely sets into motion what ideology had already set in place.

  64. What problem, BigWOWO?

    You’ve no statistics to suggest that Black-on-Asian crime targeting even exists. Your only evidence involve randomly selected minor news stories. There’s no systemic thinking in your article above, and none here in this conversation from your side of the argument.

    Put another way, I do not agree with the assertion that Black criminals target Asians. Before we can have a conversation about what to do about this concern you raise, we both have to believe the concern exists.

    I do not, because no one’s shown any hard evidence that this is a real problem. Certainly, some Asian Americans believe Black criminals target their homes, businesses, and families. I agree that the perception exists among some Asian Americans that Black criminals seek to harm them.

    But that perception has not been systemically observed in reality to my knowledge. You need the numbers you do not have, BigWOWO. Until then, much of this is just paranoia, like conservative Whites who convince themselves that voter fraud occurs at epidemic proportions within Black communities on election day. Those conservative Whites haven’t yet realized that demographic changes threaten their continued hold on American politics, and have a difficult time adapting to the new normal.

    Likewise, you and other Asian Americans metastasize isolated incidents of criminal activity that victimizes Asian Americans — still the group with the lowest likelihood of being victimized by criminal activity — into a full-blown epidemic of anti-Asian American Black criminality. None of that is really happening, but it’s easier to believe yourselves beleaguered by low-income, culturally deficient Black people than to admit that Asian American population increases suggest that incidences of victimization will increase, and that there’s more of you in America today than twenty years ago.

    Overall, crime is down significantly in America today. The relevant question for your purposes asks the race of the perpetrators who harm Asian Americans, and you’ve shown nothing to suggest that those people are Black in any significant proportion.

    They are likely White, given sheer Asian American population distribution and geography. But somehow when White people harm Asian Americans, that’s not a problem for you, BigWOWO. Wonder why?

  65. As I mentioned before, Davon Neverdon, a Black man, murdered Joel Lee, a Korean man, because he hated Koreans. The Black jury acquitted Neverdon even though they believed he was guilty. If this doesn’t demonstrate the Black community’s complicity in committing violence against Asians with impunity, nothing does.

    From what I’ve read, when Javier Bolden and Bryan Barnes were prosecuted for the murders of Ming Qu and Ying Wu, Blacks protested the trial outside the courthouse, as if to demand the right to murder Asians. I have not confirmed if this is true so others can verify for me.

    In any case, both events predated the Peter Liang protests. And yet all we hear from the New Left, including Asian progressivists, is that Asians are complicit in anti-Black racism.

  66. “You’ve no statistics to suggest that Black-on-Asian crime targeting even exists. ”

    The best laugh I had the whole day. Baby sitting computers all day gets tiring.

    First, obfuscate the issue. Talk about all the crimes when all you want to discuss is if the Black criminals are specifically targeting Asians or not.

    Second, start discussing who has it worst. Let me know when you find out the person who has it worst. I have a cookie waiting.

    Third, claim its too hard to think straight.

    Fourth, do bad science.

    Fifth, claim its all anecdotal.

    Finally, just deny it. Deny even the anecdotal.

    Now why is it okay to pass over Black applicants in IT? Oh yeah. Because you know Blacks.

  67. @ Kiwi

    “Arguably, the vast majority of Germans who perpetrated the Holocaust did so for opportunistic reasons, not ideological reasons.”

    I disagree. Those who actually violently carried out the Holocaust were true believers. Not the clerks, not the people who ran the train stations, not the soldiers who were sent to war, but the actual people who killed and tortured Jews were not ‘opportunistic killers.’

    “In the same vein, the looting and burning of Korean shops by Blacks during the 1992 Rodney King riots shows that even though the racial targeting was mostly opportunistic, the long-term impact on Korean American history in Los Angeles was nevertheless profound.”

    Actually, I don’t consider any of that violence to have been opportunistic. I consider it to be racist. Now, some of the looting that followed may have been opportunistic, but people recklessly burning down businesses and killing people? To me that can only be categorized as hate-inspired racism.

    Yes, the effects of any attack will be the same regardless of motivation. See my quote from above:

    “But when it comes to motives I think there is some difference between racial motives and racist motives. Certainly in both cases the diamonds are still gone when the families return home from temple. But in one case the criminal is operating on opportunity, when in the other case the criminal is operating hate. “

  68. @ bigWOWO

    Yes, I agree that the impact of any violence is egregious. To the people who are effected by it, none of this atom spitting will make much difference. There are always going to be members of all groups who are violent and who are racist. I think that is not the issue. After all, it doesn’t matter to the victim if the person attacking them is Black, White or Yellow. Their main issue is that they are being attacked.

    Now historically, I think the reason that we hold a magnifying glass to White racism is because it had been encoded into law in this country. The entire White population had to VOTE on racist policies and they passed by majority vote again and again. Additionally, White juries let off Klansmen, Hooligans, Nightriders and Neo Nazi’s for decades over and over again. I’m not talking MOST of the time, I’m talking EVERY SINGLE TIME. And it didn’t matter if the victim was Black, Native American, Mexican or Asian.

    For that reason, I think we have rightfully been a little more sensitive to White Supremacist racism, although certain members all races do display racism.

  69. The alleged Black-on-Asian crime wave BigWOWO writes about is a sad fiction. BigWOWO can’t produce statistical evidence of this supposed crime wave. All this side of the argument can do is make unsubstantiated claims about Black criminals and fail to convince anyone who doesn’t already agree with this premise.

    The sad truth here is that Asian Americans, to protect themselves against whatever crime they actually face, will require efforts to support law enforcement supported by all citizens. That’s not possible when some Asian Americans issue fantastic, unproven claims about a cultural propensity toward violent crime among other groups. Worse than simply being incorrect, those claims erode the interracial cooperation required to reduce crime in this cosmopolitan country.

    Anyone who does not agree with my point of view on this, feel free crunch the Department of Justice crime statistics yourself. You’ll learn that Whites and Asians are responsible for the lion’s share of crimes committed against Asian Americans. Then, maybe you’ll see all this concern and angst about urban Black culture(s) for what it actually is: prejudice.

    But probably not. This is your safe space, after all.

  70. Snoopy, I don’t think BigWOWO is necessarily alleging a ‘crime wave.’ I think that he realizes that the occurrences are statistically rare, he’s just challenging whether they are being intentionally ignored by the left.

    As a centrist myself, I cannot answer that question.

  71. @Snoopy,

    I am sorry that your Black sensibilities are hurt.
    http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article109555532.html

    “ That’s not possible when some Asian Americans issue fantastic, unproven claims about a cultural propensity toward violent crime among other groups. Worse than simply being incorrect, those claims erode the interracial cooperation required to reduce crime in this cosmopolitan country.”

    What goes around comes around … I have to get back to work, sorting IT job applicants.

  72. Snoopy,

    John Doe already said it all. Your “call to numbers” is ridiculous. I could just as easily pull a “call to numbers” on White racism. “But there are no numbers that showed Dylann Roof shot up that church for racist reasons! No numbers for George Zimmerman!” When we talk about racism, we don’t try to enumerate what can’t be enumerated. What can be enumerated here is that there are hundreds of such instances of Black-on-Asian violence–targeted violence. You’re not a mathematician–and it shows. John is a mathematician–and it shows. Let’s stop playing the “call to numbers” game. Let’s just deal with the TONS of evidence I’ve produced, including the song, including the Black-on-Asian targeting going on in Sacramento, North Carolina, Portland, etc., the rapes, the murders, the assaults that Reappropriate posted….man, we’re already hitting up some big numbers here, aren’t we?

    In addition to following Oshay Duke Jackson, you should also subscribe to Colin Flaherty’s channel. Here he talks about the “numbahs” (and coincidentally, it shows another Asian “shopkeeper” murdered–I put shopkeeper in quotes because it was really just a 15-year-old helping his aunt and uncle at their restaurant, shot dead by a Black guy who may or may not have targeted his family):

    Colin Flaherty also talks a lot about deflection. You’ve produced no numbers, and yet you’re asking for numbers. You don’t understand the numbers (at least not according to what you’re writing), but you spew them out anyway. When the issue comes up, you try to blame it once again on…

    You’ll learn that Whites and Asians are responsible for the lion’s share of crimes committed…

    Whitey and Chang.

    Sheesh. Let me paraphrase Oshay. The predictability is at an all-time high.

  73. King,

    I’m in agreement with you.

    As Snoopy unintentionally demonstrated (and as John Doe helped him demonstrate by pointing out his mistakes), numbers are hard to come by. As you said to Snoopy, I’m not saying there’s a crime wave. Most of us Asians still live without being victimized. But yes, they’re being intentionally ignored by the left (demonstrated by Mr. Snoopy once again). And they do happen to exist in high enough quantities that they shouldn’t be ignored. There’s plenty of reasons to talk about them, not least of which the fact that we live in the same society. We KNOW that we are being targeted, which is another reason to discuss it–the Broken Glasses scam rarely if ever happens with any other combination. Snoopy’s own wife blogs about Asians being targeted, but because it doesn’t fit the liberal narrative, he’s turned it into a numbahs game.

    I think part of the way we fear crime is the depravity of the crimes. I’m not Black, but I remember being a kid and seeing a TV show with the Ku Klux Klan burning homes and dragging black people out of their homes. You could die by getting run over by a robber fleeing the cops, but dying by Klan is 1000 times worse. I knew that even as a kid. There’s something sinister about dying because of your race and having your entire family murdered because of it. Statistically, getting killed by a drunk asshole in a bar fight is the same as getting shot by Dylann Roof–it still counts as a single violent crime–but getting shot by Roof is much worse because of the symbolism and the effect it has on the rest of the country.

    That’s kind of where I’m coming from with this. Although Asian-on-Asian crime exists, the viciousness of much Black-on-Asian crime tends to be a lot worse than that which we see with typical Asian-on-Asian crime. I remember reading the stories about the home invasion specialists in Portland pistol-whipping elderly Indian people. We see in the news stories of women being raped and then shot dead (this happened against one of the cousins of a frequent poster on the old modelminority.com. The Black gang raped the woman in front of her boyfriend and then shot her dead.). Plus, being racially targeted makes it a lot worse. With the Broken Glasses game, for example, we Asians had a game created entirely for the purpose of robbing us and intimidating us. For the targeted rapes of Chinese women by Black men, we’ve had stereotypes become a call to violence. And now rappers are singing about it, glorifying it.

    There is no doubt in my mind that lots of these guys are criminals of convenience, and I think you and I both agree that if we lowered the crime rate in the inner city, Black people would benefit the most, since most victims of Black crime are Black. But I don’t think there’s any constructive way to address Black-on-Asian crime without discussing it out in the open. Denying it, as Snoopy has, is pointless. Forcing people to discuss it behind closed doors also doesn’t work. People are rightfully scared, and I think the Black criminals want it that way. If we Asians don’t talk about it, it’s going to continue to take place. If Black people from the communities spawning this violence don’t talk about it, it’s going to continue to take place. But of course the first step is for people to acknowledge it. I have a feeling this acknowledgment HAS to take place in the mainstream media.

  74. Don’t got no time for this discussion over the weekend. lol

    But “interesting” news that was just posted.

    http://www.asamnews.com/2016/10/23/asian-women-targeted-in-robberies-in-seattle

    They don’t even have the chutzpah to name the “protected URMs” whereby this made news over other robberies in Seattle. But you can easily google robberies in Seattle and notice these cases stand out the most. Media bias? Probably, but irrefutable Asians are targeted for obvious reasons except to the deniers of reality with their own racial politics and agendas.

    http://q13fox.com/2016/05/04/two-seattle-home-invasion-robberies-in-past-week-targeted-elderly-asian-women/

  75. I think the easiest way to see if a racial double standard is being applied is to simply swap the races. What if a Chinese American artist made a music video promoting crime against Blacks? You’d see a media uproar (rightly) condemning it as anti-Black racism and to top it off, the Asian progressivists would pitch in that it proves the complicity and privilege of all Asians in White supremacy.

  76. Not to play the Oppression Olympics (since everybody is a loser), but it’s the “anniversary” of the largest mass lynching in America:

    http://www.scpr.org/programs/offramp/2016/10/21/52801/commemorating-la-s-chinese-massacre-possibly-the-w/

    Meanwhile, one of the largest mass murders in US history is completely ignored and intentionally forgotten so that the current racist overtones of the Yellow Peril can be resurrected to achieve geo-political ends:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Springs_massacre

  77. One of the greatest ironies of the racial progress made at the height of the Civil Rights Movement is that as a result of the push for Black/White equality and integration in the US military during the Vietnam War, Black and White soldiers bonded together as brothers to kill the “gooks”. Of note, many abandoned Vietnamese Amerasians have Black fathers, not just White ones.

    Part of me believes that this pattern of Blacks striving for equal status with Whites while simultaneously exhibiting racist behaviors towards Asians has carried on to the present day.

  78. Are black or white people monolithic groups? If we’re going to talk about patterns of crime and criminality, maybe we should leave behind the leftist indoctrination.

  79. Agreed Sengge.

    @ Kiwi

    The Vietnam War is probably a bad example to try and make that particular point. The war was a conscript war, where most of the grunts who went to fight where the poor and powerless. They were drafted, dragged into bootcamp, brainwashed, and sent to a war where the enemy was not recognizable. Secondly the war was started with a lie about the Gulf of Tonkin incident and many more lies followed. What it really ended up being was a chess game between two powerful superpowers trying to expand their influence and Black the influence of the other. The soldiers on the ground were not being being informed honestly and with good faith.

    The guys who were drafted were told that the enemy was evil and trying to threaten their way of life and that they were doing their county a great service by fighting and killing them. The entire U.S, government was pushing this line of reasoning. Once the bullets started flying and their comrades started dying, as in all wars, the worst of human nature emerged on BOTH sides. That is what war is.

    But why single out the Blacks that were drafted? How about the Korean, Chinese and Japanese Americans who were over there “killing gooks” as well? Where they also ironically striving to be equal with Whites? Were their actions racist too? And how about most of the Black population who did not go to war? And how about those who openly objected objected to it?

    http://www.cinema.indiana.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/no_vietnamese_ever_called_me_whoa_nelly.jpg

    http://history.sffs.org/i/films/1968/No_Vietnamese_Ever_Called_M.jpg

    http://cdn.quotesgram.com/small/11/94/862142816-i-got-nothing-against-no-viet-cong-no-vietnamese-ever-called-me-a-nigger-quote-1.jpg

  80. Snoopy, I don’t think BigWOWO is necessarily alleging a ‘crime wave.’ I think that he realizes that the occurrences are statistically rare, he’s just challenging whether they are being intentionally ignored by the left. — King

    As you said to Snoopy, I’m not saying there’s a crime wave. Most of us Asians still live without being victimized. — BigWOWO

    But in the original post, BigWOWO wrote …

    I think it’s good to fight the symbolism by protesting the YG video, but let’s also point out what this Black-on-Asian crime wave is–it’s become part of a culture in certain Black neighborhoods. — BigWOWO

    Consistency does not appear to be BigWOWO’s strong suit.

  81. “In certain Black neighborhoods.” Maybe I should have said “in certain black subcultures.” This way I could have avoided yet another denial.

    Deny deny deny.

    I get it, Snoopy. You don’t think it’s a problem. I guess you are consistent; I haven’t seen a word from you speaking out against Black-on-Black violence either. You only speak out when the violence comes from Whitey or Chang…or, in our case, Whitey or Liang. I think we’ll have to just agree to disagree.

  82. It’s all about money in America. It’s not really a race dang. Certain groups have more capital than others, no group singles out another group, because of skin color, but of resentment.

    Asians make good scapegoats because of this.

    Asian America doesn’t exist and if it does, it does a terrible job at it.

    Furthermore, Asians in America are wasting their time in a country, in which they do not fully take advantage of the system. The nice guy finish last syndrome doesn’t fare well in America.

  83. Fair enough, BigWOWO. We can agree to disagree. You care about the race of various criminal offenders, I care about crime from a system perspective. Incidentally, crime has dropped in America precipitously since the 1990’s and Asian Americans today are least likely from all racial groups to endure criminal offenses that threaten their lives and/ or property.

    Given this, yes, we must agree to disagree with your interest in using isolated cases of Black criminals and Asian victims to concoct assumptions about Black culture(s). You say you are not speaking about my culture, but you are using anecdotal evidence to make claims about other people’s sociology, and I disagree with the merits of those claims.

    Your “call to numbers” is ridiculous. I could just as easily pull a “call to numbers” on White racism. “But there are no numbers that showed Dylann Roof shot up that church for racist reasons! No numbers for George Zimmerman!” When we talk about racism, we don’t try to enumerate what can’t be enumerated. — BigWOWO

    This is patently false. We have hate crimes statistics that enumerate the violent attacks people endure today based on racial animosity. Race isn’t something about which we must guess its impact on individual life choices.

    We can track individual officer bias complaints, and compare redlined urban housing maps from the mid-twentieth century against ghetto enclaves today. We can discuss race disparities in housing, education, employment, health insurance, literacy, and voting patterns to bolster claims about systemic prejudice. BigWOWO, you’ve done none of this work in service of your Black-vs.-Asian crime wave theory, and without the evidence from that work, your claim is unsalvageably unpersuasive.

    In short BigWOWO, feel free to continue this discussion without me. If it helps even one Asian American to avoid being victimized by a criminal, than this discussion will be a net positive. But debates lie this only serve to convince people like me that racial conservatism refuses to view people like me as anything other than criminal.

    Black people aren’t targeting Asian Americans. But paranoia about criminal Blacks doesn’t allow you to recognize that fact at all. So you knowingly engage a debate on your perceptions of being targeted without any proof that any of this targeting is real. Hip hop is entertainment, not journalism. If a rapper talks about selling drugs, pimping women, or robbing Chinese, these statements exist for entertainment value only. Incidentally, Johnny Cash didn’t shoot a man in Reno just to watch him die.

    If some Asian Americans choose to avoid that fact to indulge baseless fears about dangerous Black people, they only serve to isolate themselves. Blacks do not target Asians to commit crimes. Disagree all you want, BigWOWO; the facts are the facts. Just do yourself a favor and watch out for the White guy around the corner, OK? He may not have your best interests at heart.

  84. Muhammad Ali is still the greatest! lol

    I also agree that the Vietnam war is a bad example in terms of the social upheaval and ambiguity of morality of the times. Indeed, South Korea was #2 in terms of the atrocities committed against the Vietnamese people. And of course, we should never generalize to entire populations.

    HOWEVER, what King is describing about black (and white) soldiers make them look like they’re involuntary “puppets” of fate rather than complicit in the atrocity of 3rd world people who cannot invade the US soil. What King described about the soldiers borderlines on apologist and ignores the continued racist media images that still pervades in the VAST MAJORITY of white and black soldiers that fought in Vietnam.

    I was called a “gook” and “chink” more than a few times from both whites and blacks growing up in red states, and it’s not from a vacuum that the racist mentality still exist in SOME baby boomers white and black in this sick country. And if the premise is true that they’re “brainwashed” then we ought to look at the common element: media and the elites trying to promote such hatred.

    Clinton will only continue that racist rhetoric of “Chinese stealing our jobs” like the Rock Spring Massacre.

  85. @King,

    So what I was pointing out is that interracial violence (Black on Asian) does not appear to be driven by widespread Black prejudice towards Asians, but rather by proximity to bad Black neighborhoods where EVERYBODY gets robbed or beat up by the criminal element, especially Blacks. This demonstrates that Asians are not SPECIFICALLY targeted but are instead caught up in a crime pattern that includes other races as well.

    Please demonstrate my illogic.

    I’m catching up so to backtrack previously. And like I’ve already acknowledged about the stereotype of the Korea liquor store owner, there are SOME incidents what you’ve described.

    HOWEVER, what you’re failing to acknowledge is that lots of these news occur in CHINATOWNS, where it’s predominantly Chinese/Chinese Americans and Asian Americans.

    Thus, the YG Flockers and other RACIALLY MOTIVATED targeting Asians because of the racist notions of being easy targets to prey on and justified by “Chinese are stealing our jobs and taking government money” as voiced by James Lamb-Fang before in the affirmative action/discrimination debates.

  86. There’s no need to pander to Snoopy Fang’s feigned outrage. He doesn’t understand statistics, mathematics or even logic and would not be able to detect a crime wave even if a gust of wind blew the reports onto his face. Maybe he would splutter in outrage at the weather.

    I’ll give you an example. That article that King posted about Latin crime gangs conducting ethnic cleansing of blacks to the point of murder.

    Would it do if the media reported the race of the victims and acknowledged they were being racially targeted, but left out the race and affiliations of the perpetrators?

    Would it do if a genius brought up national crime statistics for a continent of 300 million people to “disprove” that racist, ETHNIC CLEANSING is occurring in one neighborhood?

    Would it do if this Pointdexter argued to the prevalence of crime saying just because one or two black people have been murdered – well maybe DOZENS – that’s nothing compared to the Latin on Latin national murder rate so this ethnic cleansing is of no significance?

    Would it do if this savant said that we “meta-stasized” this single alarming report because it’s just happened in one neighborhood instead of across the entire country?

    Of course he wouldn’t. If he did maybe the next black lady he passes by on the street would clock him in the face because his karma made her do it.

  87. James Fang, I see you provided a link to the FBI’s hate crime statistics.

    You must know in detail the process of investigating a crime as a potential hate crime.

    Could you enlighten me what are the criteria that must be met for something to qualify as a hate crime?

    You’re not going to tell me, are you? You ARE going to dodge the question, aren’t you? Especially when I ask you in detail how a BLACK criminal would be investigated for a hate crime.

    “Hip hop is entertainment, not journalism. If a rapper talks about selling drugs, pimping women, or robbing Chinese, these statements exist for entertainment value only.”

    LMAO! Oh yes? And what if a rapper talks about your favourite subject of “chattel slavery”, of raping Niggers to breed the black out of them, and of how black people are genetically inferior, less intelligent, and more “emotional” beings? These statements exist for entertainment value only too? Is it really just entertainment?

    Denial much Snoopy James Fang? 😀

  88. I’ve quickly glanced over some of the previous comments and once again have to come back to the racist lies, distortions and spin doctoring by James Lamb-Fang.

    As I just stated: in case Snoopy Jenkins can’t read or willfully ignores the anti-Asian racism by some of these criminals: the attacks happened in CHINATOWNS.

    Also to highlight his racial agendas, in all the previous school admissions and jobs threads, he kept on insisting that East Asians are well off and live in rich neighborhoods and aspire to become whites as per the racist US social propaganda. But now all of a sudden deflects and tries to pin the fact that it’s because Asians live in close proximity to poor neighborhoods and are also subjected to the same housing and income discrimination? Which is it?

    While it’s certainly true for SOME demographics of Asians in low income neighborhoods, the vast majority of these NYC and the Philadelphia, Oakland and Seattle attacks occurred in CHINATOWNS.

  89. Since James Lamb-Fang and King keeps on bringing up black-on-black violence, which unfortunately is true but also completely ignores the issues of Asian Americans and Snoopy Jenkins yet again trolls this forum by hijacking the conversation to black victimhood:

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Not_as_bad_as

    It’s a total irrelevant and logic fallacy to steer the conversation off topic and focus on James Lamb-Fang racist agendas.

  90. Oh by the way Snoopy Fang, I couldn’t resist the urge to remind you:

    “Incidentally, Johnny Cash didn’t shoot a man in Reno just to watch him die.”

    On the contrary, according to your husband’s logic and your own strident defense of it, Johnny Cash admitted to murder.

    Can you explain why you and your husband have one set of standards for one scenario, and then break your own rule for the next instance of it occurring?? 😀

    It seems to possess neither rhyme nor reason to me James Fang. 😀

  91. “It’s a total irrelevant and logic fallacy to steer the conversation off topic and focus on James Lamb-Fang racist agendas.”

    It’s totally pathetic how he once again becomes the greatest source of trenchant stupidity in a new debate, even for one discussing terrible portents as serious as hate crimes and ethnic cleansing.

    This must be the neo-leftist agenda: to drown everything in a sea of stupid so that there can be no change or improvement.

  92. @ aardvark

    “HOWEVER, what King is describing about black (and white) soldiers make them look like they’re involuntary “puppets” of fate rather than complicit in the atrocity of 3rd world people who cannot invade the US soil. “

    Not at all. Giving the context in which a situation occurs does not require the dissolution of culpability? But, if you take some 18-year-old off the streets of Cleveland, tell him he will be thrown in jail if he does not go to war, then brainwash him with a lot of lies and politics that are over his head, I would say that this would have an effect… no? IN the same way, I realize that some poor kid who was raised by KKK parents never had much of a chance to grow up anything but racist. I’m not saying he shares no culpability at all, I’m just saying that hIs moral compass was set for him by elements outside of his control or choosing.

  93. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    Black people aren’t targeting Asian Americans. But paranoia about criminal Blacks doesn’t allow you to recognize that fact at all. So you knowingly engage a debate on your perceptions of being targeted without any proof that any of this targeting is real.

    Over-generalizing much about “black people” as reference to “all black people” or “all Asian Americans?” And who made you the spokesman for “all black people” given SOME segments of the gangs’ culture and lifestyle definitely

    Hip hop is entertainment, not journalism. If a rapper talks about selling drugs, pimping women, or robbing Chinese, these statements exist for entertainment value only.

    I mainly wanted to highlight this point because it stands in stark contrast to Jenn Fang and James Lamb-Fang’s statement about Choe: where it’s all toxic Asian misogylinity sexists if you don’t agree with Reappropriate’s vitriol against ALL AMs. It’s the exact DOUBLE STANDARDS that James Lamb-Fang and Jenn Fang are known for!

  94. @King,

    if you take some 18-year-old off the streets of Cleveland, tell him he will be thrown in jail if he does not go to war, then brainwash him with a lot of lies and politics that are over his head, I would say that this would have an effect… no? IN the same way, I realize that some poor kid who was raised by KKK parents never had much of a chance to grow up anything but racist. I’m not saying he shares no culpability at all, I’m just saying that hIs moral compass was set for him by elements outside of his control or choosing.

    But it’s not the entire population of drafted soldiers nor is it all rednecks. There are many cases of draft dodging and refusal to carry out illegal orders to maim and kill.

    And similarly, I’d bet many kids of KKK got out of their community. If we’re boiling it down to environment alone, then you’d have to apply the same argument in the future for other issues to be consistent.

  95. Without question, there exist particular localities where inter-ethnic tension has been expressed with extreme violence. The point, Sengge, is that those tensions are and will remain local. So there’s no reason to use those local examples to draw cultural deterministic conclusions about groups involved based on that local conflict.

    To do so requires people to take isolated local problems out-of-scope, and draw unreasonable conclusions about entire groups based on those problems. That’s the faulty reasoning that many people here support in reference to the nonexistent Black-on-Asian crime wave BigWOWO wrote about, and this crime wave is still unsubstantiated and unproven to even exist.

    Further, local problems may be difficult for the people involved, but we haven’t too my knowledge noticed a sharp uptick in murders of Black Americans by Latinos, given national crime statistics, so it’s not clear that these local concerns have any meaningful impact on relations between these minority communities, politically or otherwise, outside of the local level where they occur.

    I get that this may be difficult for some people here, who use BigWOWO.com as their safe space to gripe about the Asian American experience, but before a communities’ concerns can be accepted as reasonable by people from other groups, they must be independently verified. That simply has not happened with this alleged Black-on-Asian crime wave.

    I suggest we lack any independent verification of the existence of a so-called Black on Asian crime wave because it does not exist. Perhaps Sengge, we too should agree to disagree.

  96. @Sengge Rinchen,

    This must be the neo-leftist agenda: to drown everything in a sea of stupid so that there can be no change or improvement.

    The James Lamb-Fang empty rhetoric and deflection and hijacking the conversation to always be about black community issues on an APIA forum is what pisses me off the most. There are tons of relevant forums for black community issues and the heinous social injustices against black lives.

    However, bigWOWO and a few Facebook and Reddit groups are the only ones that allow UNCENSORED speech just has to be hijacked by the Snoops troll and cannot talk honestly about Asian American issues without him playing the race card to call everybody else racist who don’t agree with his politics. As if Reappropriate, Yomyomf, AngryAsianMan, CAAAV and the other SJW organizations don’t already bash on AMs already, James Lamb-Fang have to be a broken record and spin doctors out of reality on everything related to Asian American issues.

    Also, I think your attempts to “emasculate” James and “defeminize” Jenn kind of offends the real LGBT people. True that I’ve encountered racist LGBT people before, but they’re far more empathetic and concerned about Asian American civil rights than the Fangs will ever be and should be treated as allies.

  97. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    To do so requires people to take isolated local problems out-of-scope, and draw unreasonable conclusions about entire groups based on those problems.

    Let’s all keep this quote in mind next time there’s any sort of “toxic Asian misogylinity” and other ISOLATED local problems occur and call out the Fangs with their racist vitriol out on.

    To not apply the same commentary against themselves is known as a DOUBLE STANDARD.

  98. There are plenty of Asian American issues worth discussion, Aardvark. Nonexistent targeting of Asian Americans by Black criminals is not one of them. No one here has unearthed any evidence to suggest that the examples of Black-on-Asian crime raised in this present deliberate targeting by multiple assailants, as opposed to the happenstance criminal opportunism likely within low-income, high crime urban areas.

    Without such evidence, it’s not possible to differentiate Asian Americans caught up in the regular street crime likely in a given area from the deliberate targeting BigWOWO claims. Given this, I conclude that no Black-on-Asian criminal targeting happens, certainly not from the culturally supported motivation BigWOWO suggests.

    Obviously crimes happen in America with Black perpetrators and Asian victims. But the claim BigWOWO makes here involves deliberate targeting of Asian Americans by Black criminals, and there’s simply no evidence to conclude this happens, or that it has ever happened on any meaningful scale. It’s just not real, and to believe otherwise is racial paranoia.

    Speaking of racial paranoia, YG’s weak rhymes operate under the same literary license as Johnny Cash’s country twang or Eminem’s nihilistic hip hop. David Choe’s storytelling proved closer to the needless boasts of Donald Trump, where he offers an unprompted story, supposedly about his personal life, that probably won’t cause him legal trouble given statutes of limitations, but confesses to sexual assault nonetheless.

    If you’re willing to see all of this as examples of criminality, that is not reasonable, but if you’re not willing to see unprompted and recorded boasts of unwanted sexual contact outside of literary license or fiction writing as inappropriate and worthy of investigation, well, that makes it’s own statement about you, doesn’t it Aardvark?

  99. @King,

    We don’t go the the Mexican consulate and say, “Why are you people targeting us?”

    This comment is wrong on so many levels in terms of almost Trump like rhetoric against Chicanos. lol

    FYI, cholo culture is distinctly a US sub-culture because I’ve never seen anything like it in Mexico when I worked there on some gigs (NAFTA is bringing jobs back to America, the North America continent).

  100. @bigWOWO,

    it’s not reasonable to assume that these deranged individuals would invent these games themselves and happen to follow the same trends as individuals. When you see movies being made about killing Koreans and songs being written and performed in front of audiences that glorify invading Asian homes, it’s not just deranged individuals. It’s a culture.

    I would agree with “sub-culture” as you have Asian Americans who don’t even speak the same language can’t be considered “a culture” except in the USofA social hierarchy.

    Indeed, how do you reconcile the hip-hop gangsters with the black intelligentsia that actually do help Asian American causes sometimes, albeit in very limited capacities?

    And there are Asian gangsters that also target Asian households because of the very same racial stereotypes.

  101. @bigWOWO,

    Even though Portland is the Whitest city in American, the criminals beating and robbing East Indian families aren’t White people; they’re Black people.

    Which “begs the question” that are white Portlandians often living in well-to-do neighborhoods and thus not likely to commit crimes like the “rednecks” in poor areas of the South?

    And then what are the socio-economics of these black youths that commit the crimes? There’s no doubt drastic differences between the groups. And that’s the ongoing USofA hypocrisy towards African Americans.

    However, I definitely do agree that East Asian kids are far less likely to be involved due to not only cultural differences, but also a family structure that sadly this sick country has denied black kids for the ongoing oppression of African Americans.

  102. @ aardvark

    Again it comes down to a numbers game. How many Black soldiers were drafted to fight in Vietnam? How many were in combat, rather than in support roles? And of those, how many actually committed atrocities? Does anyone know?

    And if so, is that number really a large enough percentage for it to represent anything about the U.S. Black population?

  103. @ King

    Blacks volunteered for the military in droves during the Vietnam War, probably more than any other race. At the begininning of the war, support among the Black community for the war was high due to wanting to prove their loyalty to the president, who they saw as championing their civil rights. Also, Asian American participation in the war was minuscule compared to that of Blacks. On top of that, the military was indoctrinated to be racist against Asians during the conflict, not against Blacks. Any brotherly interracial bonding that occurred on the front lines was mostly Black/White, not Asian/White. In fact, both White soldiers and Black soldiers exhibited racism towards their own Asian brothers in arms, as well as towards their Amerasian children. Among Blacks who protested the war, their outrage was not so much a result of the racist motivations of the war but the huge casualties among Black soldiers. Blacks pushed for promotions and greater status within the military and it can be argued that it in large part helped to improve the standing of Black Americans vis-a-vis White Americans at the expense of Asian Americans. To boot, Blacks re-enlisted in high numbers, showing that the military was a plus for them. The fact that this occcured during the Civil Rights Movement is significant because it ipermanently influenced White/Black/Asian relations, which continues to this day.

    Given the immense scrutiny applied to the police by race activism, it behooves us to apply just as much, if not more scrutiny to the military, an even bigger arm of America’s security forces.

  104. King and Kiwi comments on the Vietnam War need data but it’s also off topic from this discussion of contemporary society problems and the SJWs refusing to acknowledge Asian Americans as victims but to go to crazy lengths to promote their racist agendas against Asian Americans.

  105. @ King

    Even well before America’s wars in Asia, Black Americans fought in wars of empire against Natives and Latinos, in large part in order to up their standing among White folks. To their credit, their participation was controversial among the Black community. This isn’t to prove that Blacks are any better or worse than other races in complicity with White supremacy. I’m showing that like all people, Blacks are not helpless victims of the racist system without any agency. They do have agency. And they have used it for evil, including against Asians.

  106. @ aardvark

    That’s precisely what my comments are about. The SJWs you talk about popped up as a result of the Civil Rights Movement, which occurred against the backdrop of the Vietnam War. Black lives mattered but Asian lives didn’t. That mentality among the New Left (1960s-) has stuck with us ever since.

  107. kiwi, King has already outlined the social pathologies afflicting the Black community. It has gotten worse with Obama in office. If this gives you any consolation…or the fact that Asians have the highest median household incomes, only falling short to the most elite of Whites. And Whites of any left-right paradigm aren’t too keen on this subject matter. In Manhattan, with the exception of Chinatown, why do Asians mostly live in the best neighborhoods not afforded to other minorities?

    I missed the interracial disparity discussions of the good old days.

  108. HOUSEHOLD incomes means Asians are more likely to be living multi-generational domiciles and does not mean economic equality for averaging Asian Americans. The exception of some parts of the Bay Area is simply the demand for high tech workers, but when it comes to parity comparisons of pay, I’m willing to bet Asians are still paid less than whites.

  109. Kiwi wrote:

    I’m showing that like all people, Blacks are not helpless victims of the racist system without any agency. They do have agency.

    Completely off topic: the stories about Buffalo Soldiers and the “pacification” of plains Native Americans are mostly “forgotten” by mainstream media outlets and even US history courses at the college level. Is this what humanity comes down to? T_T

  110. King wrote:

    To me, all hate crime laws should be discharged equally against perpetrators of all races. If not than we should not have special hate crime laws at all.

    There’s been studies done that show people of color are more disproportionately charged with hate crimes and not white criminals. It’s another means by which the system keeps people of color down.

    Now that the federal government finally abolished the for-profit-prison-system, hopefully there’s less cash incentives to lock up people of color.

    And here again we go off tangents…

  111. If Asians, Hispanics, European-Americans, Blacks, or other groups are afraid of being victimized, the obvious solution is to either 1) arm yourself with guns so you can protect your family, home, and yourself, or 2), move to another community. I realize poor people can’t afford option 2, but guns can be bought for under $200 bucks, which any poor person should be able to afford, especially considering most poor have TV’s, DVD players, etc.

    For those interested in interracial crime statistics as tracked by the government, see this link for it laid out in detail:

    http://2kpcwh2r7phz1nq4jj237m22.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/2005-Color-of-Crime-Report.pdf

  112. King wrote:

    As for other ethnic neighborhoods, they were smaller and younger than Black neighborhoods.

    You realize that lots of barrios are several hundreds of years old, pre-dating the English and USofA slave trade?

    Also, lots of West Coast Chinatowns date back to late 1800s and have a history of not just modern day “perpetual foreigners” FOB immigrants. Visit Lodi, CA.

    My statements are just to say that in many cases, proximity or bad luck puts Asians in crime’s way, just like everybody else.

    And yet, James Lamb-Fang was screaming for blood for the case of Peter Liang and Akai Gurley. Where does the consistency start and his brand of lying racist tribalism stop?

  113. King wrote:

    if I moved into a neighborhood with Asian criminal gangs nearby, night I also fall prey, not because of race, but because criminal gangs do criminal acts and I just happen to be there? Or would it always be a result of racial targeting?

    Has this been documented or even James Lamb-Fang’s scouring of google brought up anything that Asian gangsters are targeting black neighborhoods?

    This is the #1 USofA sick Strawman racist propaganda: to create fake narratives not unlike the Gulf of Tonkin to justify “preemptive strikes” against target demographics.

    Indeed, from what I’ve heard of the Asian gangs, they also target Asians because of the same exact USofA stereotypes.

  114. King wrote:

    Hassidic Jews also keep the Sabbath strictly, so they are not likely to be at home on Saturday morning. Therefore, the burglary of the homes of Hassidic Jews is probably going to be more profitable to me than random selection.

    I question your criminal enterprise ambitions if you think it’s a good idea to burglarize somebody in broad daylight on a Saturday morning. ^_~

  115. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    In contrast, many Asian Americans today, generally speaking, trace their families’ emigration to the United States from the mid-1960’s or later, and more specifically the 1980’s or later if we’re speaking mainly of Chinese Americans.

    Way to perpetuate the perpetual foreigner stereotypes and ignoring the fact that Oakland has one of the oldest historic Chinatowns in USofA.

    there are massive historical caveats with these generalizations, but the point here is that many Asian Americans today have little to no experience living in the sort of racially concentrated ethnic enclaves Blacks experienced for generations
    .
    .
    .
    many Asian Americans live in closer proximity to Whites than members of other racial groups.

    See, this directly contradicts your following paragraph and previous statements whereby you say that Asians living close to “low income, high crime rate” neighborhoods? Which is it?

    You’re saying one thing when it suits your empty rhetoric, but then immediately negates/denies your argument with direct contradictions. This is why I constantly apply DOUBLE STANDARDS and HYPOCRISY to your statements.

    For instance:

    In a report from American Renaissance that mostly highlights the disproportionate number of criminal offenses committed by Black people

    Now according to the Southern Poverty Law Center – of which you should be supporting since they’re much more pro-black issues than the American Renaissance:

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/american-renaissance

    Founded by Jared Taylor in 1990, the New Century Foundation is a self-styled think tank that promotes pseudo-scientific studies and research that purport to show the inferiority of blacks to whites. It is best known for its American Renaissance magazine and website.

    You’ve kept screaming that Byron and others here a conservative tools, but when it suits your weaksauce arguments you have no problems to quote data from a racist publication against blacks?

    You’re laughable at best and a lying anti-Asian racist at worst.

  116. King wrote:

    I would not say that Black criminals don’t target Asians. I would say that in many cases (not all) their motives are opportunistic. I think there is difference between that kind of violence, and kind inspired by hate and racial supremacy.

    I just have to repeat again, this debate isn’t about the fuzzy numbers and how data is aggregated into what categories to win internet flame wars.

    I’m saying that real lives have been ruined by racist crimes that the SJWs refuse to acknowledge but go to crazy lengths to create Strawmans against toxic Asian misogylinity anti-black racism. All the while they’re ignoring the reality of these heinous crimes against their racial politics.

  117. King wrote:

    Do the genes reappear when Chinese move to other countries?

    While there are plenty of violent crimes in China (even against children), and there are issues of racism against Africans living there.

    Let’s just have you generalize to other communities of Chinese because they’re Chinese genes, right? Not to mention Italians are known for racism and “alleged” means nothing in USofA “innocent before proven guilty” because Italy have the same criminal justice system…

    What’s the definition of racism again?

  118. 1) The SPLC is a well-known hate outfit which has been discredited.

    2) FBI statistics are a legitimate source for crime data.

  119. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    I do not know how it is possible to disprove the claim that Black criminals target Asian Americans by disaggregating Black criminals who target Asian Americans from the larger set of Black criminals. The assumption that certain criminals exclusively target individuals from particular races has not been proven; in essence, that’s what we debate.

    It’s called READ COMPREHENSION, whereby the articles specifically state that the criminal was TARGETING Asian victims. All those articles specifically stated the criminal were looking for Asian women/houses. What’s harder for you: lack of reading comprehension or actively living in your own fantasy in denial of reality?

    If people who unabashed bias against Black people cannot locate the statistical basis for the claim that Black criminals target Asians, then isn’t it further likely that such evidence does not exist?

    LOLZ!!! So you figured it out after you posted the racist American Renaissance article and is trying to backpaddle? Too late for your lack of reading comprehension and arbitrarily ignoring data and content for supporting your arguments – which is totally obvious to anyone familiar with your lies and empty rhetorics on here.

    The focus of the racists on black criminality DOES NOT imply the absence of black-on-Asian crimes. You’re talking about racists who only want to rag on African Americans, but at the same time their lack of interest to include Asian Americans DOES NOT make their publication reputable as to black-on-Asian crimes.

    This is basic logic 101 course that Cornell sadly just fails at every level with your protected URM admissions.

    And ANECDOTAL to everything you write and post about “toxic hyper-AM misogynilinity” since you’re cherry picking articles online!

  120. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    No, it’s much more sensible to take existing statistics to determine how often Asian Americans who are victims of crime interact with Black perpetrators. The scant evidence we have of this suggests that White and Asian criminals are more likely to victimize Asian Americans than Black criminals.

    Show me the data! Otherwise, cherrypicking and anecdotal!

  121. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    Black people simply do not think about Asian Americans that much

    So what’s your excuse for trolling an Asian American website and condescend towards everybody and tell them they’re conservative racists when you have your own much popular website?

    Nothing short of James Lamb-Fang level of distortions and spin doctoring out of this statement here.

  122. @bigWOWO,

    The Mafia were fine with Chinese people moving in next door. They felt that Chinese people took care of their homes and would mind their own business.

    Maybe they also felt indebted to the Chinese for the Italian Renaissance? lol

  123. @bigWOWO,

    According to the report, there are perhaps HUNDREDS of such incidences of people targeting Asian homes. If you look at the video, you’ll see that once again it’s Black-on-Asian.

    One worthy note is that how much is it the media intentionally pushing forward these news rather than other news?

    For instance, there are tons of issues around the world and in USofA that the news outlets refuse to comment on for obvious reasons, so when they do actively publish stories, you’d have to question the agendas behind it…

    It’s always related to perpetuating the model minority myth for Asians and set us up as scapegoats.

  124. @Kiwi:

    From what I’ve read, when Javier Bolden and Bryan Barnes were prosecuted for the murders of Ming Qu and Ying Wu, Blacks protested the trial outside the courthouse, as if to demand the right to murder Asians. I have not confirmed if this is true so others can verify for me.

    I’ve not heard of anything here in the LA area nor from online publications. My cursory reading of the LA Times was it’s criminal justice system grinding away and “justice” was meted out “fairly.”

  125. King wrote:

    I’m talking EVERY SINGLE TIME. And it didn’t matter if the victim was Black, Native American, Mexican or Asian.

    For that reason, I think we have rightfully been a little more sensitive to White Supremacist racism, although certain members all races do display racism.

    Which is why it’s imperative that people of color recognize and understand how it works lest we all get played by the man and fight each other instead of the system.

    It’s important to see that Asian Americans are also as much victims of racism and scapegoating as any other “protected URMs” and that James Lamb-Fang’s racist rhetoric should not be tolerated, and neither should the borderline ChineseMom spiel that castigates entire groups of people without recognizing the good. There are good and bad in every population and neither skin color nor eye shape should be used as basis to judge others.

  126. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    Anyone who does not agree with my point of view on this, feel free crunch the Department of Justice crime statistics yourself. You’ll learn that Whites and Asians are responsible for the lion’s share of crimes committed against Asian Americans.

    That’s disingenuous to call for others to crunch the numbers when yourself is the one that’s trying to push for a prejudiced statement in the first place.

    Release those numbers on “hate crimes” and let’s get to it. Otherwise, quoting from anti-black racist publications like American Renaissance just means you go to any lengths to spin doctor and lie!

  127. @King,

    Snoopy, I don’t think BigWOWO is necessarily alleging a ‘crime wave.’ I think that he realizes that the occurrences are statistically rare, he’s just challenging whether they are being intentionally ignored by the left.

    The usual James Lamb-Fang Strawmans and hyperboles and LIES, what else is new?

    This is normal MO for him: to make exaggerated lies and pin it on others and dismiss everything as anecdotal. It’s boring, really.

  128. I just saw this article from my news feed that I though is interesting and relevant to the discussion:

    http://www.gq.com/story/a-former-cop-explains-how-the-police-get-away-with-killing-people

    Notice that yet again James Lamb-Fang has hijacked this forum for his own racial politics and brand of racism. He keeps screaming tantrums that Byron has some sort of “malaise of judgement over black culture” but at the same time has no qualms about being the hypocrite and make blanket statements against Asians.

    I’ll be back for more either later tonight or early in the morning. I’m still obsessing over Walking Dead’s Glenn episode. ^_~ lol

  129. Aardvark,

    In my opinion, the Broken Glasses Scam is a form of robbery. Only very large Black men do it to Asian men, and in my case, there were two very large Black men. Without that intimidation factor, it doesn’t work.

  130. Snoopy wrote:

    But debates lie this only serve to convince people like me that racial conservatism refuses to view people like me as anything other than criminal.

    What you talking about, Snoopy? First of all, no one here is conservative except Kiwi. Everyone else is centrist. I went to great lengths to say that we aren’t talking about your culture or mine. You come from a middle-class background, maybe even a wealthy background. You have no idea how the poor really live. Talking to you about the poor is like asking a bricklayer about mutual funds.

    Nobody here has accused you of anything related to violent crimes in the inner city and from the inner city. We accuse you of being ignorant of inner city life, which only illustrates the extent to which we see you existing outside of that life. For you to claim that people are viewing you as a criminal…well, that’s just Victimology. Again.

    Hip hop is entertainment, not journalism.

    It’s culture.

    James and Everyone else,

    First, I agree with King. If King brings up the even bigger number of African American victims of African American violence, I’m all for it. I do think we need to empathize with Asian American victims since the world is silent on their plight, but let’s stop the violence. If we can save Black lives while getting around Snoopy’s obstructionism, I say let’s do it.

    Now I’d like to summarize James’s position here. Y’all might not get the logic, but because I get it, I would be remiss not to share it with you.

    1. When Black crime happens, Black criminals are the ones doing the raping, murdering, or violence. They’re the ones pulling the trigger, forcing their penises into unwilling sex partners, raping and then pissing on unconscious White girls while shouting “that’s for 400 years of slavery”, or pistol-whipping old Indian grandfathers. In virtually all cases, they’re the ones planning these crimes, buying the guns beforehand and planning the getaway. Snoopy can’t deny this. But still he belives…

    2. …that it’s ALL Whitey’s fault.

    I mean, Snoopy, that is what it comes down to, right? I notice, for example, you talk about “economic uplift,” but in all cases, you never focus on Black entrepreneurship or training. You never focus on Black people making decisions, good or bad. It’s all about what Whitey can give Black people, whether it’s reparations, affirmative action jobs, affirmative action college seats, money, scholarships, etc. Similarly, it’s not about Black people refraining from crime. For you, it’s all about finding new ways to pin the blame on Whitey.

    I’m sorry, but that just ain’t gonna work. Seriously, Snoopy, isn’t this outlook of yours a little embarrassing? Do Black criminals have even the slightest responsibility for the crimes they plan and execute?

  131. I just want to say that if Snoopy believes that criminals have no responsibility for their own crimes, then there’s not much else to discuss. Obviously in his view, the onus is on us to appease these criminals, rather than for these criminals to change their lifestyles.

    Again, no offense intended to anyone here. I just don’t know where the conversation can go if Whitey and Chang are responsible for bad actions taken by people who aren’t Whitey or Chang.

  132. Bryon and I can finally agree on something. There is a lot of denial going on here. Most of these cases never make it on most news channel. But have a cop shooting a Black man than it’s reported on daily. If an Asian is attacked shot or rape by Blacks, there’s not even so much as a word from the media. Shame! Not only that, Whites, Hispanic and others suffer from from violence crime inflected on them from street thugs.
    I believed that rap music and the thug culture dominate the Black community.
    Even in some places in China they don’t welcome them. If you don’t believe me, look go on Youtube. Remember the Rodney King riot. Many Korean shops and homes was burnt down. Just like in New Orleans in the Hurricane Katerina storm aftermath lootings and ect. Asians, Hispanics or any other race don’t burn or loot people home. If you complain that racism is the cause, how can you explain the fact Native Americans don’t go around doing criminals acts upon others races. I not talking about the 18th or 19th century either. I’m talking about the 21 century.

  133. Yeah blame ole Whitey for your troubles so that you don’t have to take your own responsibilities

  134. Jesus Christ, I don’t often pray. I think you’re about as real as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. But please save me from the internet. The more Snoopy denies, the more I search, and the more disappointed I am. I just saw this:

    http://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2016/10/24/parent-punches-child-charter-school-pkg.wjla

    That Black parent punched a 7-year-old Black child in the stomach, and this is at a KIPP institute, known for their success in educating young African American children. He assaulted a boy whose parents are doing the right thing. May God grant the judge the wisdom to prosecute this child abuser and not to put the blame for his violent actions on Racist Whitey or Diabolical Chang. May we get a judge who believes in personal responsibility, regardless of the skin color of the defendant.

    Amen.

  135. Willing to bet Asians are paid less than Whites?

    Which is what I said, and this is the same old trope of not being in the executive suite or the upper echelons of White elitism, while doing very well for a minority group that doesn’t push the envelope in anything.

    How does more Asians becoming executives in White America and students enrolling at the Ivy Leagues translate to any Asian empowerment or an asset to the community?

    The director for a Museum about Chinese Americans, is an AF who’s married to a White guy, with a finance background, previously working for Goldman Sachs in a managerial position. Most likely she has a limited knowledge of museum curating, let alone, a background in anything cultural.

  136. Chr must be made to keep to the topic. Otherwise his random rants should be made invisible.

  137. @ bigWOWO

    Interesting that you see me as conservative since I view myself as being to the left of you, since I don’t attribute Black criminality to cultural pathology.

  138. The culture argument is a tough sell since Koreans in Japan suffer the same problems (crime, poverty, dropouts etc.) as Black Americans, yet do fine in China and the US. Obviously, since they came from the same culture, that doesn’t explain the differences. The difference is historical. Koreans immigrated to China and the US voluntarily but were forcibly brought to Japan as slaves. For the same reason, Black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean also do fine in the US whereas Black Americans, as descendants of slaves, don’t do as well.

  139. Do Koreans in Japan have the same culture as Koreans in Korea?

    If Koreans in Korea value education, consumerism and plastic surgery and Koreans in Japan do not, do they share the same culture?

  140. Koreans in Japan, Blacks in America, and Dalits in India suffer the same social problems (crime, poverty, dropouts etc.) but they don’t have anything in common culturally. Nigerians, Chinese, and Venezuelans in America do well socioeconomically but they don’t have anything in common culturally.

    The former were forced into minority status. The latter chose to become minorities by immigrating.

  141. I don’t think you know what social problems Dalits in India are suffering from. If you knew, I don’t think you would rush to lump them together with Koreans in Japan and Blacks in America. This would be like categorizing the plight of Blacks in America to be at the same level as Bengali migrants in the military ruled nation of Burma, where people are actually forced to live in concentration camps, and where the military holds checkpoints to corral victims in and allow armed mobs to chop unarmed villagers to pieces every now and then.

    Please don’t talk about the Dalits if you don’t know anything about them.

  142. @ Sengge Rinchen

    I didn’t say Koreans in Japan and Korea have the same culture, retard. I said they came from the same culture. There’s a big difference between arriving in Imperial Japan during World War II as a forced laborer vs. arriving in LA during the 80s to open a shop and send your kids to school, regardless of cultural background.

  143. By the way, is this your interesting theory about “willing” and “unwilling” minorities?

    “The former were forced into minority status. The latter chose to become minorities by immigrating.”

    Really? How many migrants did you interview where they expressly said they migrated in order to become a minority?

  144. @ Sengge Rinchen

    Then please don’t talk about Zainichi or Black Americans if you don’t know anything about them.

  145. @ Sengge Rinchen

    By the way, is this your interesting theory about “willing” and “unwilling” minorities?

    No, retard. It’s John Ogbu’s theory, which I shared with bigWOWO, and which he thought was interesting.

  146. “I didn’t say Koreans in Japan and Korea have the same culture, retard. I said they came from the same culture. There’s a big difference between arriving in Imperial Japan during World War II as a forced laborer vs. arriving in LA during the 80s to open a shop and send your kids to school, regardless of cultural background.”

    But I don’t think I am a retard. Implicit in your argument about Koreans coming from the same culture is that Koreans in China, Japan and America have the same culture.

    If that was not implicit in your argument, you would not have argued that people of the same cultural origin facing different circumstances and prospects debunks the argument that culture makes a difference, unless you’re a retard and don’t even know your own arguments. Because obviously, they only came from the same culture but the culture they are living and practicing now would be materially different.

    Your arguments to the role of culture is of a static, historically defined thing, and not about how people actually live their lives and what they strive for.

    I agree with you that you are a Leftist. You talk like one and you believe the same things.

  147. “No, retard. It’s John Ogbu’s theory, which I shared with bigWOWO, and which he thought was interesting.”

    Since you’re using it to explain something that means you adopted it, so now it’s your theory too isn’t it? At least in here.

    “Then please don’t talk about Zainichi or Black Americans if you don’t know anything about them.”

    I didn’t lump them in together with Dalits as if to say their experiences were even remotely similar.

  148. @ Sengge Rinchen

    But I don’t think I am a retard.

    I don’t care, you still are.

    Implicit in your argument about Koreans coming from the same culture is that Koreans in China, Japan and America have the same culture.

    No it isn’t. That’s why you’re retarded.

    I agree with you that you are a Leftist.

    I didn’t say I was a Leftist, retard.

  149. @ Sengge Rinchen

    I didn’t lump them in together with Dalits as if to say their experiences were even remotely similar.

    I didn’t say their experiences were similar, retard. I said they were involuntary minorities.

    This is why nobody here can ever have a reasoned conversation with you. You’re just a hotheaded moron who hasn’t made it past grade school maturity and it really drags down the blog.

  150. In order for there to be “involuntary” minorities, then there must have been voluntary ones. Can you point me to a singled person who has been interviewed who has said “YES! I came here not for the better economic prospects, or to flee war, but to BECOME A MINORITY”?

    Can you point me to a single person who has testified to this?

  151. @ Sengge Rinchen

    Now you’re grasping at straws. That’s not even the definition of voluntary minority. That’s how I know you’re retarded.

  152. Kiwi, do you see where this is going?

    S.R: Implicit in your argument about Koreans coming from the same culture is that Koreans in China, Japan and America have the same culture.

    Kiwi: No it isn’t. That’s why you’re retarded.

    If Koreans in Japan do not live the same culture as Koreans in China, then how does it disprove the idea that culture makes a difference in outcomes? You used Koreans in China and Japan specifically to debunk the idea.

    Now if you don’t actually believe they live the same culture then it’s only because I pointed it out to you.

    You don’t understand your own arguments. Maybe you understand the Leftist theories, but I think you have been misled. They have very little to do with actual reality.

  153. “Now you’re grasping at straws. That’s not even the definition of voluntary minority. That’s how I know you’re retarded.”

    So we’re in the business of creating definitions for new words and phrases now?

    Where does it stop? “Voluntary minority” is just a cool little Leftist theory you ascribe to people, just like Trotsky would before he pumps people up to massacre the new category of people.

    No migrant in the history of the human race has ever said they traveled across an ocean because they love the idea of being a minority so much.

    I don’t think pointing out this idiocy makes me a retard.

  154. @ Sengge Rinchen

    Kiwi, do you see where this is going?

    Sure. Why stop at culture? You can always go the ChineseMom route and argue that Black genetics explains inferior outcomes. You two are not that different.

    You can start by actually reading the paper I shared with bigWOWO, but I already know you won’t, even after your next 30 posts. At least he will read it.

  155. @ Sengge Rinchen

    So we’re in the business of creating definitions for new words and phrases now?

    No, I’m using a term coined by a self-described moderate, whose works you’ve never read, let alone understood.

    The fact you write it off as Leftist without even reading it just goes to show that you’re a retard. Fancy that.

  156. Kiwi,

    Oh I see. So you object to debating culture and outcomes because of your distaste for genetic determinism? Never mind that it’s two completely different arguments?

    Does this objection come from an emotional basis, or an ideological one? I know for sure it doesn’t stem from any logical place because you can’t even differentiate between two separate and distinctly different types of arguments.

    And the next thing about your new idea is that I don’t need to read John Ogbu’s article. I only need to read how you use it to explain “social phenomena”, because that’s what’s going on here: your adoption of someone else’s thesis to explain something but coming out sounding completely nonsensical in the process.

    I don’t know if Ogbu is a Leftist, but I know for sure you are one. You talk and write like one. You will never abandon treating blacks and whites as monolithic groups, and you do the same for Asian minorities as long as you can get to fit them within the Leftist “narratives” special victims and eternal bogeymen. This doesn’t fit with reality. I have to call you out on that.

  157. BigWOWO,

    I thought you wanted us to agree to disagree? That’s what people say when they’ve given up on engaging someone in a debate, yes? Given your request, I left your writing alone in this thread. If you choose to promote this erroneous belief that a supposed “Black-on-Asian” crime wave exists, in any form, you are more than welcome to promote that thoroughly unsupported view. It’s not real, it’s not happening, but if it’s easier for you to maintain your paranoia about Black criminality, have fun. I just disagree with you.

    And yes, when people agree with your view about inner-city Black culture’s inherent criminality, that does affect me personally. Everyone isn’t able to differentiate between people like me and King and the criminals you fear. That’s not your fault, but it is true.

    I don’t know if most people have experience with police officers who question one’s whereabouts in search of robbers and rapists; it’s not fun, and at every moment during the encounter one knows that if the officers who question you are having a bad day, or if they’re just indifferent to your humanity, that bodily harm, arrest, or worse may result. Just for ‘fitting the description’.

    A Black man need not be poor to fit other people’s assumptions about Black criminals. Further, you have no idea about my knowledge of inner-city life, BigWOWO. Besides, the guy who claims that inner-city Black culture encourages young people to harm Asians clearly has not spent much time in Black neighborhoods.

    Frankly, this entire thread features scared, ignorant people who pretend that their main antagonists are poor Black citizens. It’s a stupid lie. Not even the ‘race realists’ believe that stupid lie, which illustrates just how far past sanity this whole “Black-on-Asian crime wave” dogma really is. Folk like Jared Taylor hate Black people, and blame Black criminals for America’s problems. No one denies this. But even his work argues that Asian Americans have more to fear from White and Asian criminals than Black criminals. Not even Whitey supports you on this one, BigWOWO.

    Obviously, I think everyone bears responsibility for their own actions. Individually. That’s why I’ve always rejected the cultural determinism you apply selectively to Black Americans, BigWOWO. Criminals deserve to be prosecuted; it doesn’t matter the difficulties they endured from childhood, their countries of origin, nothing. Criminals deserve to be prosecuted. Individually. Based on their own actions. But you prefer to explain crime that affects Asian Americans as finding origin in group practices and group beliefs, and that insults the majority of law-abiding Black Americans who live in high crime, low income neighborhoods and are victimized by street crime far more than the Asian Americans who constitute your main focus.

    BigWOWO, you remind me of the Republican politicians who suddenly care so deeply about today’s opioid epidemic, and wish to respond to the high drug use and overdose rates in the Rustbelt and Appalachia with public compassion and increased money for drug treatment centers. These conservative Republicans express sympathy for White drug addicts, even though many of them built careers responding to Black drug abuse with excessive prison sentences, three strikes laws, and private prison construction.

    Given what’s you’ve written in this thread BigWOWO, it’s almost as if you’d rather elide and ignore the vast majority of Black crime victims to express special concern for Asian ones. BigWOWO, the race of a crime victim should not render her an afterthought to you or anyone else. If you care about reducing the crime that affects Asian Americans, and you believe that crime to emanate from low income, high crime urban settings, than you should have far more consideration for Black crime victims than you’ve displayed in this thread.

    But you won’t do that, BigWOWO, because just like the police that I must navigate every day, you have difficulty telling Black people apart. To suggest that inner city Black culture endorses criminal activity is absurd and prejudiced, and gives cover to other folk in this thread who can’t have a discussion about interracial crime without relying on contemptible anti-Black stereotypes.

    You’re saying, in essence, that inner-city Black culture leads poor parents who live in the projects as a direct result of their poverty to raise delinquent, law-breaking children who exhibit contempt for innocent people by design. That’s insane. I know this tiny Internet corner is where certain beleaguered Asian American men hang out, a safe space for the sad and ignored, but no one can have a meaningful discussion about crime in America if they exhibit paranoid suspicion and race prejudice.

    And yet, that’s the discussion you’ve sparked, BigWOWO. There is no “Black-on-Asian crime wave”. There’s just your fear. But maybe for your sake we should agree to disagree.

  158. What the heck happened to the thread?

    Just look at the latest news from Sacramento, Cary, Durham, Philly … its says Asians are targeted by Black thugs. The news doesn’t say criminals are robbing victims that happen to be Asians and Blacks.

    And we have two, yes TWO race apologists King and Snoopy, who wants to argue by pointing to ALL the crimes against Blacks by unrelated criminals that has nothing to do with these particular incidences. They want to talk about WHO has it worst. AND they want to distinguish the racial targeting into a category of attacking Asians because they are Asians vs attacking Asians because they believe certain stereotypes about Asians (cash, etc).

    Really? Is it okay to talk about cops harassing Black men because they are Blacks vs harassing Blacks believing they might have a criminal record (you know prison stint).

    The Chinese immigrants should make use of the 1st and 2nd amendments.

    For me, how come I didn’t find any half decent Black IT applicant to hire, yet again? I guess what goes around comes around. Lets ruminate that.

  159. Kiwi,

    Sorry, I got you mixed up with someone else. Someone here recently claimed to be a conservative. I don’t remember who that was.

    I don’t know whether it’s fair to compare Black Americans with Koreans in Japan. For one thing, the crime rate is much lower in Japan among any group. It might just be that Koreans in Japan seem to have a high crime rate because almost all groups have high crime rates compared with Japanese. If you looked at, say, the murder rate among any subgroup of Koreans in Japan and compared it to the murder rate in Chicago, it wouldn’t even come close.

    Second, there is legal discrimination against Koreans in Japan. There is no legal discrimination against African Americans here. In general, Koreans in Japan have to give up their names for citizenship. Becoming citizens is not an easy process, so many are not citizens. If you’re not a citizen, you have to deal with all kinds of small hassles. It’s harder to find a place to live, you can’t vote, you can’t get most jobs, etc. Read about it here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan#Integration_into_Japanese_society

    Legally anyway, it’s FAR worse than what Black people go through here. When I was in Japan, even English-speaking White people were complaining about the laws. But this is even worse.

    On the other hand, third, Koreans never underwent multigenerational slavery. They were never, in the words of Snoopy (which he found somewhere else), “human chattel.” Even though we laugh at Snoopy’s fine art of making excuses, multigenerational slavery does have a big impact on people (even though Snoopy is now arguing that it didn’t). Plus, there’s the racial aspect and the one-drop rule.

    But I think the main thing is that the crime rate really isn’t so high, even in cultural subgroups among Koreans. If we were to look at Korean test scores, they might be (or might not be) lower than the Japanese test scores, given the crap they have to go through, but I’d be surprised if they were all that low.

    In other words, I agree that there probably are residual problems created by being an involuntary minority. But the Snoopy approach of “It’s all someone else’s fault” seems to me to be ridiculous, counterproductive, and morally misguided. Individuals need to take responsibility for individual actions, and when the culture needs fixing, the culture needs fixing.

  160. Kiwi,

    The culture argument is a tough sell since Koreans in Japan suffer the same problems (crime, poverty, dropouts etc.) as Black Americans, yet do fine in China and the US. Obviously, since they came from the same culture, that doesn’t explain the differences. The difference is historical. Koreans immigrated to China and the US voluntarily but were forcibly brought to Japan as slaves. For the same reason, Black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean also do fine in the US whereas Black Americans, as descendants of slaves, don’t do as well

    Where did you get these ideas? I think your facts and comparisons are totally wrong.

  161. Everyone,

    I don’t think King is being an apologist. He’s simply pointing out that most Black crime is Black-on-Black. He is correct. He is also saying that most Black criminals don’t target Asians, which is also correct. And if you look above, he acknowledges that there is targeting going on.

    Snoopy, on the other hand…

    Snoopy,

    I’m in a pickle here. I agreed to disagree, but then you just went off on a tangent that…well honestly, I think it’s harmful to YOU. You KNOW that Asians are being targeted. I even referred you to reappropriate, which talks about how Asians are being targeted. But you deny it. Deny deny deny. It’s easy for you to do because YOU are not the one being targeted. Almost all Black-on-Black crime is crime of convenience. YOU are not the one who has to worry about criminals targeting you because of your race, as is the case with the trends in Sacramento, North Carolina, and all the other places that people here are mentioned. I’m glad you have that privilege. We don’t.

    And yes, when people agree with your view about inner-city Black culture’s inherent criminality, that does affect me personally. Everyone isn’t able to differentiate between people like me and King and the criminals you fear. That’s not your fault, but it is true.

    I think we finally agree on something. I agree that not everyone is able to differentiate. Maybe lots of people are not able to differentiate.

    But I completely disagree on your response to our rare agreement on a fact. Your response seems to be: well, some people can’t differentiate, so let’s not talk about it. Let’s pretend it doesn’t exist. Let’s deny deny deny, and maybe these stereotypes will go away. Even though Black-on-Asian and Black-on-White crime is high, if we don’t acknowledge it, people will just fugeddaboutit. We can intellectually resist by continuing to ask for the numbahs, and we’ll somehow convince Whitey and Chang that the inner city is all their fault. Meanwhile, we’ll also convince them that there is no problem with crime.

    My approach is exactly the opposite. Let’s talk about it. Let’s get it out in the open. If we talk about it, maybe we can fix it. Then, if we fix it, Whitey and Chang really don’t have anything to worry about. Nor do the millions of Black victims who you also always refuse to acknowledge. Fix it, and solve the problem. That’s my approach. But in order to fix it, you have to acknowledge it first.

    You’re saying, in essence, that inner-city Black culture leads poor parents who live in the projects as a direct result of their poverty to raise delinquent, law-breaking children who exhibit contempt for innocent people by design.

    That’s not my opinion. I never said it was poverty. In the OP, I’ve even mentioned that Appalachia looks nothing like some of the inner cities we’re discussing.

    To suggest that inner city Black culture endorses criminal activity is absurd and prejudiced, and gives cover to other folk in this thread who can’t have a discussion about interracial crime without relying on contemptible anti-Black stereotypes.

    Look, Snoopy, when people tell me that Asians test high, I don’t reflexively stand up and say, “That’s the model minority myth!” If you react emotionally, you’re not going to be able to discuss and focus on the facts.

    I understand that we’re having a difficult discussion here. It’s been somewhat emotional for me too, researching this shit and seeing how bad it really is. It’s been emotional reading how people who look like me are being targeted for home invasion, rape, an violence. But again, we should discuss it rather than run from it. You can feel free to be hurt by what you view as stereotypes, but almost everything that has been said here has been documented with actual stories, lots of stories. I don’t want to compare, but while I acknowledge that it may make you uncomfortable, it’s far less comfortable for the Asian people being robbed, raped, beaten, and murdered. I think you can afford to put up with a little discomfort if it saves one life.

  162. Kiwi,

    Also, Black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean are both self-selected and institution-selected. In general, you have to be really smart to immigrate from a country like Nigeria. First, you have to graduate with a degree, and you have to learn English. Then you have to get hired and sponsored, and then you have to have your visa approved. If you’re here on a student visa, you have to be a top student. Of course they do well. These are people who would do well anywhere.

  163. Completely going off topic…

    Do Koreans in Japan have the same culture as Koreans in Korea?

    Japanese can be pretty racist, so I don’t know how true it is but I’ve met lots of them who said that the Yakuza are Koreans.

    And don’t forget some Koreans in Korea were collaborators with Japan during the height of Japanese colonialism on the peninsula and had to leave after WW2 and weren’t accepted in Japan, and then resorted to organized crime.

  164. @bigWOWO,

    Obviously in his view, the onus is on us to appease these criminals, rather than for these criminals to change their lifestyles.

    I’m just trying to keep it honest here and call it when I see it. I will actually say that this is a Strawman against James Lamb-Fang.

    He didn’t make the case that Asians should appease black criminals but rather that black criminals should be seen in more empathetic and human terms that USofA tends to stereotype African Americans as.

    Yet, he never affords the same courtesy and empathy towards Asians and constantly blames Asians for social malaise against blacks. Your “blame whitey and Chang” comment is spot on about him.

  165. @Siegfried the racist troll:

    I believed that rap music and the thug culture dominate the Black community.

    Be more specific! Which “Black community” are you talking about? There are tons of black nerds on youtube and sadly they’re part of the mainstream media propagandizing of the studios and networks by giving them disposable income rather than helping other black communities which are in dire need of cash infusions.

    This is the #1 thing I’ll actually challenge “nerds” like James Lamb-Fang on: stop giving the racist media your money and give that to food banks and after-school programs in the inner cities.

  166. “I’m just trying to keep it honest here and call it when I see it. I will actually say that this is a Strawman against James Lamb-Fang.

    He didn’t make the case that Asians should appease black criminals but rather that black criminals should be seen in more empathetic and human terms that USofA tends to stereotype African Americans as.”

    I’m afraid that is not correct. That is what you wished James Fang was saying. That’s not what he’s saying.

    You will not be able to quote a single sentence or passage where James Fang made such a case, so what gives with this level of apologism?

  167. John Doe wrote:

    Really? Is it okay to talk about cops harassing Black men because they are Blacks vs harassing Blacks believing they might have a criminal record (you know prison stint).

    This is an interesting point, because more than likely James Lamb-Fang and King won’t go into the fact that cops shoot and kill more white people than black people in USofA. HOWEVER, the main issue of #BlackLivesMatter is about the unjust and racist profiling of black youths and other brown people by the popo.

    Similarly, while it’s true what they say about the black-on-black crimes, this discussion is about the specific targeting and profiling of Asian victims. It’s about being consistent, which James Lamb-Fang refuses to do out of his racist tribalism agendas.

  168. John Doe wrote:

    For me, how come I didn’t find any half decent Black IT applicant to hire, yet again?

    Is there a selection bias going on or do you have “objective” interview tests you apply to all candidates?

    Also, there’s a severe lack of STEM graduates in the US, not just URMs but all backgrounds. 2nd+ generation of Asian Americans rather go into law, financing, and medicine rather than generate wealth in the STEM and manufacturing sectors.

  169. @bigWOWO,

    there is legal discrimination against Koreans in Japan. There is no legal discrimination against African Americans here.

    What about ILLEGAL discrimination that’s even more rampant and dastardly? Just because the black ink on paper reads good and gives people the feels for “equality and justice for all” doesn’t mean reality is even close.

    There’s much racism and discrimination still in USofA and against other minorities, including supposedly no overt legal discrimination in school admissions either.

  170. Illegal discrimination more rampant and dastardly? Gee, then why fight the Jim Crow laws at all? Isn’t this a great step back? Now there’s more ILLEGAL discrimination that is more rampant and dastardly than the LEGAL ONE.

    I think all of you Asian American leftists have one thing in common. You have never stepped foot for any appreciable amount of time out of the USA

  171. @Sengge Rinchen,

    You will not be able to quote a single sentence or passage where James Fang made such a case, so what gives with this level of apologism?

    Apologism? I’ve not even began to respond to James Lamb-Fang today, having to compile his empty rhetoric thus far.

    I’m simply making the case that he never wrote (which means I can’t find a quote) whereby he said Asians should appease black criminals. And he hasn’t because at the very least he understands enough common sense to condemn violence and criminality.

    However, I’ve pointed out that he constantly trolls this forum to detract the attention away from APIA issues and always, always amp up the black victimhood angle. It’s been super boring for many moons.

  172. Illegal discrimination more rampant and dastardly? Gee, then why fight the Jim Crow laws at all? Isn’t this a great step back? Now there’s more ILLEGAL discrimination that is more rampant and dastardly than the LEGAL ONE.

    Context, my dear Pb blockhead dense reader. Jim Crow was about segregation, but while lynching was ILLEGAL it still went on outside of the legal purview.

    And what of it I’m leftist and living in the USofA? There are laws in the Philippines against vigilante justice, but look how well it’s working out right now with the ILLEGAL system of rampant violence there against anyone and everyone who gets labeled “drug dealer” without a court of trial.

    Suharto got nothing on you!

  173. And yet he never said what you said he did either.

    Are you some kind of Dungeons and Dragons druid whose sole purpose is to “restore the balance”?

    James Fang’s arguments in this entire thread has no redeeming values. Don’t go step in to save him just because you feel the need to convert him back to “true” leftist values. You’re no leftist messiah or savior.

  174. “And what of it I’m leftist and living in the USofA? There are laws in the Philippines against vigilante justice, but look how well it’s working out right now with the ILLEGAL system of rampant violence there against anyone and everyone who gets labeled “drug dealer” without a court of trial.”

    Was vigilante justice in the Philippines ever legal? In order to have a true comparison with your moronic statement you’d have to quote a time when illegal vigilante justice reaped a greater toll than when vigilante justice was legal.

    As far as I know…. that has never happened anywhere on Earth.

    You are arguing to the beliefs. But it fails because your beliefs are leftist indoctrination that has zero bearing on reality.

  175. Aardvark,

    I stand by what I said. Every “solution” that James has proposed involves Asian or White people making changes. That’s without exception, as far back as I remember. He’s never demanded or even suggested any change of behavior from people actually doing the crimes. To me, that’s appeasement. We’re the ones being racially targeted for rape and home invasion, but we’re the ones who need to make changes. In other words, if I change my behavior to make these criminals happy, then maybe they’ll stop raping and invading homes.

    Keep in mind, once again, that I’m not pinning any blame on him for the crimes. He’s not been around that. He’s not responsible for it. BUT…he still sees what’s happening.

    It seems to me that James and everyone else should all be on the same side. He doesn’t want to be stereotyped, and we don’t want to be beaten, robbed, raped, or murdered. So why not try to stop the beatings, robbings, rapes, and murders and give less of a reason for people to be stereotyped? It’s probably no easy to execute, but it’s easy to start. It’s driving me crazy. I’m not even asking anyone to fix it. But we’ve got only one person here who won’t even acknowledge it.

    Here’s Colin Flaherty less than an hour ago:

  176. BigWOWO, I’m not saying that Asian Americans lack a problem with crime. I’m saying that the idea that Black criminals expressly target Asians is not accurate. I further claim that the Black criminals who have victimized Asian Americans have done so without any direction from or consideration for their cultural practices.

    In short, I disagree with your original post. I do not deny that crime affects Asian Americans, though it is clear given Department of Justice reports cited earlier that Asian Americans face less crime than all other racial groups. I simply have not found compelling evidence for the conclusion that Black criminals specifically target Asian Americans.

    None of this is to say that a particular, individual criminal would not target Asian Americans; we’ve both found examples of that. But the idea that such targeting is a culturally approved and widespread tactic practiced among Black inner city communities is to my mind preposterous. For example, Chinese food deliverymen are not attacked because they are Asian, they are attacked because they carry cash within low-income neighborhoods.

    But the crime itself is not authorized or applauded. When deliverymen are attacked in communities of color those deliveries cease. The population itself finds its services reduced by such activity, and those people rightly express anger at the crime that leads to the service loss.

    BigWOWO, the major point here is that Black people live with the crime you lament when it affects Asian Americans every day. Asian Americans present a fraction of the victims of this needless street crime, and your focus on them as justification for more attacks on inner city Black culture disrespects those Black communities who watch their property values sink as law enforcement contains criminality within their neighborhood’s borders. Suburbs and exurbs too expensive for working class residents to afford enjoy serenity with manicured lawns and safe streets, and the ghetto, created through racist public policy devised without Black or Asian input, treats its residents to a Manichean world of poverty and want and crime.

    And yet BigWOWO, you only seem to care about this when Chang gets mugged. To my mind, you lack the moral authority to harangue low income Blacks about their culture when you only ever consider them threats to your community’s survival.

    I think you can afford to put up with a little discomfort if it saves one life. — BigWOWO

    That’s the problem, isn’t it. People like me are also told to accept unreasonable searches and seizures to prevent catastrophe for others. People like me are asked to endure stop and frisk, driving while Black, and a unceasing list of YouTube snuff films where a compliant Black man is shot dead by a frantic police officer who’s so afraid of dark skin that his gun speaks before he can.

    Clearly, Black men cannot afford to put up with discomfort to soothe other people’s fears. When we say we can’t breathe, you say it’s our fault. When we protest overzealous law enforcement, you say blue lives matter. When we say crime is down, you vote for law and order candidates.

    No. A little discomfort can get me killed. That little discomfort threatens my life. I’m under no obligation to prize any reasoning that requires me to undergo unnecessary, sometimes fatal police encounters so that other people may feel better about the safety they already enjoy.

  177. Sure you did not “say” Asian Americans lack a problem with crime. True to your nature you merely trivialized it, and then went on a spree of denial. Then you went on to blame The Man because in your mind that would justify the criminal victimization that Asian Americans are enduring. The process is to blame The Man for the crime rate, and then because the crime rate is a norm you then claim what is happening to Asians is run of the mill nothing special. That’s what you’ve been doing.

    You obfuscate, trivialize and deflect at every opportunity. Nobody credible here is saying blacks as a whole are targeting Asians. But it has become clear that a criminal class of black people are in fact doing so. True to nature, you do everything you can to deny this. You even go so far as to break your own novel rules, indicating that whatever you or your husband has ever said to argue your own points was something you never truly believed in. When things don’t go the way you want them to, you will find exceptions to your own rule.

    I don’t want to hear your nonsense about being the victim. You are playing the Oppression Olympics with a zeal that indicates you think that you are the only deserving gold medal winner.

    I think that leftists like you share much in common with the people who fence goods or who spread hate propaganda. You are ENABLERS of crime.

    Snoopy Fang, you enable crime by denying and trivializing its effects on communities. Your talk about its effects on black neighborhoods and people is just lip service. If you really knew what these criminals do to black life, you would not make any excuses for them.

  178. Sengge, you have to stay on the lookout for criminals. King has to stay on the lookout for criminals and the police. Now, no one’s playing ‘Oppression Olympics’ by stating reasonable inferences based on available facts. No one suggests that you have it worse than King, or that King has it worse than you. But while you can expect reasonable treatment more often than not from the police, King cannot.

    No one should expect a conversation about Black and Asian crime experiences to forget the relationship between the Black community, modern militarized law enforcement, and the carceral state. Many South Asians recognize the overzealous policing that Black folk discuss as similar to their own struggles. I’m not here to remain silent about people of color’s experiences with police so you, BigWOWO, and others may indulge Black criminality fictions to justify a cultural determinism BigWOWO only applies to Black people.

    Black criminals do not engage any systematic targeting of Asian American citizens to my knowledge, and I’ve seen no reputable evidence to suggest otherwise. Stay safe out there.

  179. Of yes? Doesn’t your own husband document cases where law enforcement has victimized and failed South and East Asians?

    Once again you trivialize their experiences so that you can win the Oppression Olympics.

    I don’t think you’ve ever met a criminal, James, or even come close. If you did, you wouldn’t trivialize what they do. You wouldn’t say King and I have to watch out for criminals as if that were a normal thing, because if King and I became prey, you would know how much it would cost us.

    Many black citizens have decided to join law enforcement exactly because of this. But you Snoopy, you just keep making the excuses. The Man is your enemy, but you don’t have the space in your heart to acknowledge the kind of toll that crime takes from people.

    Your cowardice in the face of evil makes you an ENABLER of crime, James.

    You know I really wished we could have discussed this topic properly but once again you have made it all about you. I have to call you out on your fictions; that’s the least that I owe you.

  180. Snoopy:

    Black criminals do not engage any systematic targeting of Asian American citizens to my knowledge, and I’ve seen no reputable evidence to suggest otherwise.

    You all realize that the primary sources of all the links we’ve posted come from places like ABC News, the New York Times, the Sac Bee, the Oregonian, etc. I’m not sure what your definition of “reputable” is, but these sources are extremely reputable. You’ve quoted them yourself before. I’m not sure why you stopped finding them “reputable.” That seems a bit emotional to me.

    And yet BigWOWO, you only seem to care about this when Chang gets mugged.

    Well, to be fair, I’ve brought up lots of instances where Black people get mugged too. I’ve always said that that’s the real story. In fact, in this very thread, I posted a story about a 7-year-old Black boy getting punched in the stomach by a grown man. But you always brush these stories aside, instead focusing on cases like Michael Brown, who was shot by a cop while trying to murder a cop.

    THIS is my first time posting a discussion questioning on why Chang got mugged. But as with our previous discussions, you only seem to care when Whitey or Chang is the one doing the shooting.

    That’s the problem, isn’t it. People like me are also told to accept unreasonable searches and seizures to prevent catastrophe for others. People like me are asked to endure stop and frisk, driving while Black, and a unceasing list of YouTube snuff films where a compliant Black man is shot dead by a frantic police officer who’s so afraid of dark skin that his gun speaks before he can.

    In most of these cases, that’s not what’s happening. If you look at the numbahs, Black people are less likely to get shot by cops (though more likely to get hassled or roughed up). In most of these cases, the cops aren’t afraid of Black skin; they’re afraid of black guns that hold lead bullets.

    I’ve never asked you to endure unreasonable searches. But I am asking you to open your mind to REASONABLE discourse. Put up with it, and maybe you can save some lives. Most importantly, stop the denial.

  181. @Aardvark
    I’m not a racist troll. You guys criticize White people and category them all as being racist. You call us Whitey. Whose racist now. I was referring to the Blacks who are running around with their pants below their asses and are thugs. You know what I’m talking about don’t play stupid. Maybe you just are stupid. Some rappers talk about shooting cops and being disrespectful to the American society. You see them at the suburban malls and on the trains, busses ect. I’m of course not talking about middle age people and successful blacks. I’m talking about thugs from 13 and up.

  182. bigWOWO wrote:

    You all realize that the primary sources of all the links we’ve posted come from places like ABC News, the New York Times, the Sac Bee, the Oregonian, etc. I’m not sure what your definition of “reputable” is, but these sources are extremely reputable. You’ve quoted them yourself before. I’m not sure why you stopped finding them “reputable.” That seems a bit emotional to me.

    LOLZ! Snoopy would rather quote the anti-black racist American Renaissance for data when it suits his agendas.

    It’s being dishonest and petulant and egotistical in debate and just typical of James Lamb-Fang’s usual MO.

  183. Sengge Rinchen wrote:

    Are you some kind of Dungeons and Dragons druid whose sole purpose is to “restore the balance”?

    I have honor and believe in truth, justice and the scientific way. Something you might not understand with your read comprehension problems and spin doctoring.

    Was vigilante justice in the Philippines ever legal? In order to have a true comparison with your moronic statement you’d have to quote a time when illegal vigilante justice reaped a greater toll than when vigilante justice was legal.

    As far as I know…. that has never happened anywhere on Earth.

    You obviously got issues with reading at the college level. My point is that it’s exactly vigilante justice is ILLEGAL that your statement is false that legalized discrimination is worse than illegal discrimination cases in SOME instances of history.

    Now go take some actual logic 101 courses and school James Lamb-Fang afterwards.

  184. Siegfried wrote:

    I’m not a racist troll. You guys criticize White people and category them all as being racist. You call us Whitey.

    Nobody said “all” anybody of demographics, not even Snoopy here. If you’re checking for grammar and being petulant, then just imagine there’s a “some segment of” that population.

    And I’d agree that SOME Asians are racist, but there’s good and bad in every population and that’s been stated here many times before by me and others.

    You know what I’m talking about don’t play stupid. Maybe you just are stupid. Some rappers talk about shooting cops and being disrespectful to the American society.

    There’s a sickening trend of the popo shooting black youths in this country and you know what I’m talking about don’t play stupid. Maybe you just are stupid. Some popo talk about EXECUTING black kids and being disrespectful to the American public.

    Anger on both sides isn’t going to solve the problem and for what it’s worth, the US government definitely has to step up the aid to its own citizens instead of sending Billions overseas in “aid” to prop up fascist regimes. Rather than jailing and disposing large populations of people, create infrastructure to generate and develop human capital in USofA.

  185. BigWOWO, those sources always inform about particular incidents. If you want to prove the evidence of systemic targeting, you’ll have to find a larger survey of crime statistics that argues your point.

    For example, when did the targeting of Asian Americans by Black criminals start? Where does this targeting take place? Do Black criminals target East Asians specifically? Are first and second generation Asian Americans more or less likely to be targeted than later generation Asians? Are we more likely to find this targeting in West Coast cities and towns or on East Coast?

    Are suburban Asians in Northern Virginia or in Texan urban areas also at risk? What about Asian American college students — many selective colleges and universities reside in downtown urban areas — do they experience this targeting? For how long? Does Asian American victim gender place someone at higher risk?

    BigWOWO, if you’re right, all these questions would be easy to answer, and they would provide a geographic and demographic profile that law enforcement officials could use to combat crime. You’ve discussed none of this. That tells me you aren’t interested in this topic except as a means to berate low income Black culture. You always lack interests in specifics, because that takes work.

    Seriously, were I you, and I faced someone who continually denied that a “Black on Asian crime wave” existed, I would find the specific evidence of the crime wave, rendered through systematic observation. Random news stories wouldn’t cut it for me; the evidentiary bar is and should be higher than an isolated report of a pedestrian street crime. I would do the work, so naysayers couldn’t reasonably doubt me.

    Do the work, and I’ll listen. Until then, I simply have not found compelling evidence for the conclusion that Black criminals specifically target Asian Americans.

  186. I am not sure how many people are on to this, but Siegfried is likely an Asian guy pretending to be a White guy. LOL! It’s obvious that English first language.

  187. @The Blah
    I am a honorary Asian. I wish I were Asian. I could surround myself around the most beautiful Asian women all the time. I showed part of myself on the Fighting 44. I’m White whatever believe it or not.

  188. @Snoopy,

    1st amendment, and the one after that is what we need to build a bridge to the Black community.

  189. I don’t have time right now to rip apart the Snoop lies, distortions, and spins right now but I’ll get to it tomorrow probably.

    In the meantime two things crossed my mind Andre “the black nerd” is a frequent youtube celebrity on pop-culture, so what sorts of “black culture” does he fall under? Certainly not the YG type and certainly not the James Lamb-Fang black victimhood blame whitey and Chang type either. There are tons of sub-cultures and saying “it’s the culture” discounts lots of diversity within a population that has nothing in common except skin color.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/BlackNerdComedy/videos

    For what it’s worth, I think it’s simply sad that Andre’s collection of useless over-priced plastic trinkets meant he sent most of his money to the man rather than helping inner-city school kids to get ahead…

    Also, the documentary “13th” just came out on Netflix, but I think it’s worthy to just post “the alternative free link” since Netflix doesn’t care about password sharing and it’s important enough of a documentary to be aware of the very real injustice system in USofA:

    http://bit.ly/2f64Mg2

  190. I wanted to comment on Sengge’s quote:

    I don’t think you’ve ever met a criminal, James, or even come close. If you did, you wouldn’t trivialize what they do. You wouldn’t say King and I have to watch out for criminals as if that were a normal thing, because if King and I became prey, you would know how much it would cost us.

    This is exactly right.

    For people like us who have actually dealt with violent criminals, the stakes are rather high. There’s nothing laughable about it. It’s often truly life or death. There’s also no fun in being targeted. But if you’ve never had the experience of violent crime, it’s just another talking point.

    Snoopy,

    So now they’re “random news stories” (of crimes and targeting, um, that happen to number in the hundreds.) Just a single comment ago, they were stories that weren’t “reputable evidence.” You just don’t like the outcome. As always, you try to use the logic and facts to match your desired outcome, rather than trying to use logic and facts to come to a reasonable outcome.

    Which is why your desired outcomes are usually unreasonable.

  191. Snoopy, do you really need to turn every discussion into all about you, just so that we get yet another example of how flexible you are with your own rules?

    Your husband at your safe space Reappropriate pulled up ZERO statistics when she tried to get Misolinsanity added to the dictionary. I did not see you putting up a fuss back then.

    Your husband relied on NOTHING BUT A STORY, a “narrative”, but at least in our case, we are referencing reports from reputable news organisations.

    We didn’t pull up statistics from disreputable and suspect organisations, like you did when you first entered this thread.

    There’s a reason why you don’t hold yourself up to your own husband’s standards. The reason is that you don’t believe in anything you’ve actually said. Everything you’ve said to argue your cases in here and in Reappropriate has been just desperate spin because you’re invested in only ONE outcome and you don’t care about anything else.

    You are preaching the religion of the Special Victims. In your religion the people you deem Special Victims must have a monopoly on victimhood so that their saviors such as yourself can jockey for more and more Special Treatment and Privileges.

  192. None of you have any idea what experience I’ve had with violent crime, just as you have no ability to convince anyone who doesn’t agree with you from the outset that the so-called “Black-on-Asian crime wave” even exists.

    You guys aren’t mad with me because I’m somehow not debating in good faith, or because of any lapse in evidentiary standards. You guys are mad because I don’t agree with you. That’s it. I’m not hijacking your debate, I simply disagree with your conclusions.

    King allows for the possibility that Asian Americans may be targeted by criminals. I allow for the possibility that this targeting has occurred in isolated incidences from various individuals. It may even be possible on a small group basis, though I find it highly unlikely.

    Where we disagree is on the question of some vast, widespread, culturally approved interracial targeting for criminal victimization among low income urban Blacks. On that point, none of you have any evidence whatsoever, and you know it. All you have are paranoid suspicions, because you have not engaged the difficult work required to specify the breadth and depth of this problem you identify.

    The only outcome I desire in this debate is a pathway to reduce crime. I don’t think crime reduction happens when one group argues that another group exhibits cultural deficiencies that harm people. I think crime reduction happens when people apply reasonable analysis to reputable data from multiple sources. The best argument in favor of a so-called “Black-on-Asian crime wave” is that within highly localized urban contexts scattered reports of criminal offenses that involve Black perpetrators and Asian American victims persist.

    Do those reports indicate that Black on Asian crime persists out-of-proportion with both groups’ incidence within a given local population? Not according to any analysis of any locality that I’ve seen, and certainly not on a national level. That being said, Asian Americans, at lower rates than any other racial group, do sometimes fall victim to crime, and that’s regrettable.

    To draw larger conclusions than that is to my mind overtly irresponsible and inflammatory. I get that this position is not good enough for those among you who prefer to characterize various Black culture(s) as overtly dysfunctional and dangerous, but it’s the most compassionate position I think one can hold reasonably, given the available facts.

    Anti-Black cultural determinism doesn’t help Chinese American grocery owners run businesses without repeated thefts, just like calling violence “radical Islamic terrorism” doesn’t prevent Wahhabists from attacking American nightclubs. If you’re actually concerned about real crime victims, you have to know that hyperbole does not help.

  193. No, actually I do have an idea what kind of experience you had with violent crime. You have absolutely none whatsoever. You have lived a very safe life. You know James Lamb of Cornell details about your life are really not that hard to come by, but we don’t even have to go that far. Usually the things that people say and do are enough to reveal how much life experience they’ve had, and when it comes to crime, you’ve had a very safe life. That’s why you’re cavalier.

    The next thing is we have no intention of “persuading” someone who persists in sticking their head in the sand. That’s what you’re doing. We’re not persuading you. We’re calling you out and mocking you on it. Please don’t mistake this as “persuading”.

    We do indeed have evidence of vast, widespread, culturally approved racial targeting among black criminals.

    YOU are proof of it. Your vehement and base denials function as ENABLERS to allow them to continue what they’re doing. You’re like the guy who says he didn’t see anything even though you were drinking some juice right next to the van where some gangbangers dragged a passerby in and drove away even as she screamed for help. YOU and your DENIALISM in the face of unmistakeable and credible reporting of crime is evidence of cultural approval of racial crime.

    I’m not going to bother jumping through your hoops and loops when you change and shift the goalposts around while crying “Persuade me, convince me LALALALA” while sticking your fingers in your ears and jumping up and down so you can’t get pinned down in one spot.

    A) First of all decide what standards you want to use when deciding whether said Black on Asian crime wave exists or not….

    B) The next thing is explain why you and your husband BREAK YOUR OWN STANDARDS whenever you create your “narratives” that have so little bearing on reality. 😀

  194. Snoopy,

    Did you see above what GuitarDude just posted? 35 arrests. I’ll spell that out for you: thirty-five arrests. That’s only in Sacramento. We haven’t even begun talking about the other places, such as Portland, Seattle, North Carolina, New York, etc. (I’m sure you’ll find more info if you subscribe to Colin Flaherty’s channel.)

    Check out the video:

    It’s not that you don’t agree. It’s the double standard. David Choe by himself proves misolinsanity in your world, but 35 suspects–let’s not even talk about the number of victims–35 suspects means nothing. Again, we’re not even talking about the other cities around the country that are experiencing similar targeting.

    King allows for the possibility that Asian Americans may be targeted by criminals. I allow for the possibility that this targeting has occurred in isolated incidences from various individuals. It may even be possible on a small group basis, though I find it highly unlikely.

    You clearly have no experience with violent robbery. If these were isolated incidents, Colin Flaherty wouldn’t have enough material to keep his channel going. All those reputable news sources wouldn’t be reporting it.

    Your “show me the numbahs!” strategy isn’t working, Snoopy.

    I get that this position is not good enough for those among you who prefer to characterize various Black culture(s) as overtly dysfunctional and dangerous, but it’s the most compassionate position I think one can hold reasonably, given the available facts.

    Certain Black subcultures are dysfunctional. Targeting innocent men, women, and children is sick. Invading homes, and targeting women for rape is sick. That’s what they do, but you give them a pass because they’re Black. You think they’re part of your tribe and are therefore deserving of your tribalism, but if you had any interaction with them, they’d take your money too. Snoopy, but you’re part of the problem. You think your unwillingness to ask them to change and break their dysfunctional patterns is pro-Black, but it your strategy is allowing the killing of more Black people (and more Asian people too, but you don’t seem to care about those damn Asians, so let’s just stick with Black victimhood).

  195. Certain Black subcultures are dysfunctional. — BigWOWO

    This is a false and unreasonable statement.

    Further, your insistence on a cultural reason behind criminal activity tells Black people like me who both do not support criminal activity and possess self-respect that the real goal of all this is to argue that some Black people prove incompatible with modern American life on a fundamental level.

    I cannot, and do not, support this idiocy. BigWOWO, start small: in what American location would this so-called “Black-on-Asian crime wave” prove most prevalent? Can you truthfully answer that simple question with any specificity and/ or supporting evidence?

  196. “This is a false and unreasonable statement.

    Further, your insistence on a cultural reason behind criminal activity tells Black people like me who both do not support criminal activity and possess self-respect that the real goal of all this is to argue that some Black people prove incompatible with modern American life on a fundamental level.”

    Oh, so it’s false and unreasonable when it comes to black people, but when it comes to Asian people, it’s perfectly okay for you to categorize Chinese immigrants as incompatible with democracy.

    Why the double standards James? Are black people special flowers and snowflakes in America?

  197. Sengge,

    Right on. Snoopy will condemn Chang for “anti-Blackness,” but if it’s Black racism or Black violence, he’ll say, “Show me the numbahs!” If he sees that one Charleston shooting, he’ll be up in arms, all while ignoring the HUNDREDS of Asian homes being targeted for home invasions.

    Snoopy:

    Further, your insistence on a cultural reason behind criminal activity tells Black people like me who both do not support criminal activity and possess self-respect that the real goal of all this is to argue that some Black people prove incompatible with modern American life on a fundamental level.

    Well, at least you’re interpreting me correctly. If you target Chinese women for rape, if you target Indian families for violent home invasion, if you use physical intimidation to rob and steal from innocent Chinese immigrants, then you are incompatible with modern American life on a fundamental level. Black people like you, that is liberal ivory tower Black people, do not commit crime, nor are you exposed to it. But you enable it by refusing to condemn the murder, theft, and rape that you clearly know is going on.

    BigWOWO, start small: in what American location would this so-called “Black-on-Asian crime wave” prove most prevalent? Can you truthfully answer that simple question with any specificity and/ or supporting evidence?

    Why do I care, Snoopy? You can pick any of these places to focus on. Sacramento. Portland. Seattle. Why do you care to waste time identifying where it’s most “prevalent.” (which, again, is a “numbahs” question.) Just pick a city…any city. It’s happening. Fix it in whichever city you can. It’s what you’d do if the victims were Black and the perps were non-Black.

  198. But you enable it by refusing to condemn the murder, theft, and rape that you clearly know is going on. — BigWOWO

    Why is it SO important that I, and/or people like me, “condemn the murder, theft, and rape that you clearly know is going on”?

    If you are correct, and I represent “liberal ivory tower Black people” who “do not commit crime, nor are you exposed to it”, then what does all this have to do with me? If your description of me is accurate, I’m neither part of the crime problem nor exposed to its effects. How do I enable a so-called “Black-on-Asian crime wave” when I don’t agree that it exists and have nothing to do with it on any level?

    My only concern in this debate involves moving past the needless cultural determinism to examine how crime affects real people. I contend that the cultural determinism you espouse makes it more difficult to deal with the root causes of crime in America, which is one of many reasons why such cultural determinism has no place in academic literature on the subject.

  199. I’m finding myself having less time and more impatience dredging thru James Lamb-Fang’s empty rhetorics of lies, deceit and treachery…

    However, what’s Colin Flaherty angle? What does it concern him about black-on-Asian violence? Or is it more of just trying to drive the wedge between communities and play the scapegoating political games?

    There needs to be more news stories and moving forward to address the inner city poverty as well as media racism against both sides, but something about Colin Flaherty seems shady to me.

  200. “Why is it SO important that I, and/or people like me, “condemn the murder, theft, and rape that you clearly know is going on”?”

    Why is it so important for Asian American men to dogpile on John Cho just because he challenged your monopoly on Special Victims?

    Why is it so important for Chinese migrants to throw common sense out of the window in order to support Affirmative Action enrollments into useless “Liberal Arts” degrees instead of high performing STEM degrees?

    Why should David Choe be attacked for publishing a sleazy sex fantasy when you give black people a pass when they write about racial targeting and sing about committing robberies?

    Do you mean that you refuse the accountability you shrilly demand of others?

    LMAO! 😀

  201. “However, what’s Colin Flaherty angle?”

    Colin Flaherty’s angle is simple. He’s giving leftist apologism and ideology a slap in the face by pointing out their hypocrisies and double standards.

  202. @Sengge Rinchen,

    At this point it is extremely absurdist and comedic to laugh at James Lamb-Fang’s willful denigration of facts and reality to suit his own racial and political agendas. Thanks for outlining it.

    Colin Flaherty’s angle is simple. He’s giving leftist apologism and ideology a slap in the face by pointing out their hypocrisies and double standards.

    As if the right-wing don’t have their own hypocrisies and double standards? There’s not much info on Colin Flaherty, but seems like he’s right leaning. And that’s what I hate to see and find disgusting: using Asian Americans as pawns and scapegoats for their racial and political agendas without any input by Asian Americans ourselves.

    Don’t forget the model minority myth was created to absolve the elites out of responsibility to enact social policies that can benefit all people of color, instead of creating a false narrative to point fingers and say “if Asians can’t make it then why can’t you” excuses for failing to fix the issues.

    “Liberals” are also abhorrent at this: enact affirmative discrimination policies in accordance to population percentages and take away from Asians, but never whites, in order to pander and appease James Lamb-Fang’s protected URMs.

  203. Aardvark,

    “Willful denigration of facts and reality”? How?

    I agree that crime victimizes Asian Americans, that Black people are sometimes the perpetrators, and that even though crime affects Asian Americans less than any other group, this still means that heinous acts are committed against their number that shatter lives and traumatize families.

    I just do not agree that the acts raised in this thread are linked through an amorphous cultural acceptance from low income urban Black communities. That last claim is still unproven. I’ve certainly never denied that any of the crimes raised in this thread are real. I suggest they are not linked in the manner BigWOWO suggests.

    Don’t pretend that I’ve denigrated reality or denied facts when I’ve simply disagreed with the analyses other people present.

  204. Snoopy, Snoopy, Snoopy,

    “ your insistence on a cultural reason behind criminal activity tells Black people like me who both do not support criminal activity and possess self-respect that the real goal of all this is to argue that some Black people prove incompatible with modern American life on a fundamental level.”

    You discount culture, and environment obviously … Don’t hear about Chinese men from predominantly Black neighborhood (or any neighborhood) targeting Black women for rape and Black home invasion in any large numbers like 35. Not culture, not environment. You paint Blacks into a very unpleasant corner.

    Yes, Blacks targeting Asians because of the their race (despite King’s attempt at separating racist and racialist, whatever dichotomy) are not compatible with a multi-racial cosmopolitan society. Question is what do we do with these Black thugs? Any suggestion from you?

  205. You can pick any of these places to focus on. Sacramento. Portland. Seattle. Why do you care to waste time identifying where it’s most “prevalent.” — BigWOWO

    One reason to focus on the geography of the problem you raise is to determine whether your cultural determination claim has merit. If most of these cases happen in cities on Black America’s frontier, it’s harder to make a claim about low income urban Black cultural acceptance of this illegality.

    The vast majority of Black Americans still reside in the American South. Significant populations exist today in Northern cities as well, but cross the Mississippi westward, and Black Americans become scarce. Population shifts in the Northwest still do not boast a massive influx from the darker nation. In short, while cities like Sacramento, Portland, and Seattle have Black populations, those spaces have never set cultural mores for Black America as a whole.

    Certainly, we all recognize that there are multiple Black cultures. I claim that it is difficult to argue that low income urban Blacks authorize or condone criminal acts that target Asian Americans, in part because the vast majority of low income urban Blacks do not live or work around Asian Americans. Asian Americans basically live in Western states, Hawaii, the NYC metropolitan area, and the District. Outside of those population centers and scattered college towns, Asian American population density wanes considerably.

    So your claim about low income urban Black targeting of Asian Americans assumes a cultural support for criminal actions against a population with whom the vast majority of people within the set of low income urban Blacks do not interact. Poor Black folk in Charlotte, NC aren’t paying their Sprint bills from the ill-gotten bounty found in Asian American homes.

    BigWOWO, the question is this: can a culture be condemned for actions that the vast majority of its adherents have not committed, lack the opportunity to even attempt, and have not considered given moral and geographic barriers?

  206. I just love this topic. I feel its been long over due. I know many of you have chosen to ignore my post. That’s too bad because they are packed full of wisdom. When I type fast, I make common grammar mistakes.
    That being said, I wonder why Black leaders don’t speak out against violence from their communities?
    Black Lives Matter can’t be found when there’s crime from inside or outside the Black community.
    This is why there’s racism against Blacks. They don’t care at all. They can blame Whites, Asians or Hispanics but they should look in the mirror at themselves.

  207. Siggy,

    Are you schizophrenic? It was just a year ago that every other sentence of yours had grammatical mistakes. I’m wondering if you forgot to make those mistakes, or if you’re two people. If so, does one of your personalities not like Asian women?

    Aardvark:

    However, what’s Colin Flaherty angle? What does it concern him about black-on-Asian violence? Or is it more of just trying to drive the wedge between communities and play the scapegoating political games?

    I think he’s just fascinated by culture. He talks a lot about Black-on-White violence too. I think he’s fascinated not only by culture in the inner city, but also the way media reacts. It’s a form of cultural attraction.

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2016/08/cultural-attraction/

  208. Snoopy:

    If you are correct, and I represent “liberal ivory tower Black people” who “do not commit crime, nor are you exposed to it”, then what does all this have to do with me? If your description of me is accurate, I’m neither part of the crime problem nor exposed to its effects. How do I enable a so-called “Black-on-Asian crime wave” when I don’t agree that it exists and have nothing to do with it on any level?

    That’s actually a really good question.

    If you see above, Aardvark asked what Colin Flaherty’s deal is. My guess is that he’s fascinated by culture; inner city Black culture, of course, but also media culture and how media react to these cultural clashes.

    So why do I care what you think? I think it’s similar to why Colin Flaherty cares, but perhaps a bit more. You’re similar to media culture, but you’re much more than that. You’re in the Ivory Tower set, and so you’ve got a voice that may matter when it comes to the discussions. But even more, you’re a Black guy who has made it. Cornell-educated, second gen college grad, living in a college town, wife runs a blog that’s influential among liberals. You could really be among the most influential voices in helping your people. You could really start to turn it around.

    But if you don’t try to turn it around, you’re enabling it. The fact is that there aren’t many people who’ve got the combination of race, street cred, and connections that you have. If you use your influence to continue to peddle the idea that people aren’t responsible for their own actions, they’ll continue to shirk responsibility for their own conduct.

    BigWOWO, the question is this: can a culture be condemned for actions that the vast majority of its adherents have not committed, lack the opportunity to even attempt, and have not considered given moral and geographic barriers?

    I think “condemned” is not the right word, Snoopy. I’m not looking to condemn anyone. I have no reason to condemn anyone. But let’s turn around PARTS of a culture that are negatively affecting people.

  209. @bigWOWO,

    I think he’s just fascinated by culture. He talks a lot about Black-on-White violence too. I think he’s fascinated not only by culture in the inner city, but also the way media reacts. It’s a form of cultural attraction.

    Meaning, what? He’s an Asiaphile? lol

    Or like your other statement about Colin Flaherty how he comments on black-on-white violence that he’s simply a conservative racist trying to perpetuate negative stereotypes of black people?

    Like I wrote above: leave Asians out of it. We’re not pawns in their racist propaganda wars where he doesn’t care about the lives of Asian Americans whatsoever, except as a means to drive wedges between people to further Flaherty’s own racial and political agendas.

    wife runs a blog that’s influential among [racist] liberals…. let’s turn around PARTS of a culture that are negatively affecting people.

    I think you meant it in the way that Jenn Fang is a racist against AMs and those who aren’t sheeples that blindly promulgate their SJW racist narratives.

    What pissed me off the most about the Fangs is that they’ll go to crazy lengths to diss on “toxic Asian hyper-masigolinity” with the flimsiest associate with regular AMs and make all sorts of lies and fabricated data on how there’s a TREND of anti-black racism with Asians.

    However, when reality shows there’s all kinds of anti-Asian violence from both whites and blacks, no word is said whatsoever unless it’s outrageously heinous crimes. Even then, Jenn Fang and James Lamb-Fang won’t say it’s the race or culture that enables it.

    That’s why I’m offended Jenn Fang is such a racist against Asians with her blog.

  210. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    even though crime affects Asian Americans less than any other group

    Show me the NUMBAHS! You have no data, none. Full stop.

    I just do not agree that the acts raised in this thread are linked through an amorphous cultural acceptance from low income urban Black communities.

    Byron needs to better define the language. While I’d agree overall there’s no cultural propagation of anti-Asian violence from “low income urban Black communities” you can’t deny there’s a SEGMENT of hip-hop stereotyped gangsters that do target Asians in CHINATOWN.

    Don’t pretend that I’ve denigrated reality or denied facts when I’ve simply disagreed with the analyses other people present.

    NO! The charges against you still stands for your history of lies, deceit and treachery of facts and data to push your political and racial agendas: to promote policies that only benefits your affiliated BM breeder population only.

    it’s harder to make a claim about low income urban Black cultural acceptance of this illegality.

    You and Sengge Rinchen have this in common: not recognizing that nobody will own up to something that’s illegal publicly, not unless you’re the president of the Philippines. :p

    while cities like Sacramento, Portland, and Seattle have Black populations, those spaces have never set cultural mores for Black America as a whole.

    See, you admit to being a black nerd and you obviously know of mass media and youtube. So what makes you think others also do not have the same access to technology and the stereotypes about Asians get perpetuated in hip-hop gangster rap if not for mass media?

    Certainly, we all recognize that there are multiple Black cultures. I claim that it is difficult to argue that low income urban Blacks authorize or condone criminal acts that target Asian Americans

    Your statement contradicts itself. So what makes you not recognize there are certain segments of low income urban Blacks who are part of the hip-hop gang culture?

    in part because the vast majority of low income urban Blacks do not live or work around Asian Americans. Asian Americans basically live in Western states, Hawaii, the NYC metropolitan area, and the District. Outside of those population centers and scattered college towns, Asian American population density wanes considerably.

    So your claim about low income urban Black targeting of Asian Americans assumes a cultural support for criminal actions against a population with whom the vast majority of people within the set of low income urban Blacks do not interact.

    See, this is quite a change from your previous statement that the violence occurs around low income neighborhoods where it’s because of direct interaction between blacks and Asians in low income neighborhoods. This is a prime example of your lies, distortions and spin doctoring.

    FYI, in case you haven’t noticed (or is simply denigrating reality and facts again) the vast majority of these crimes occur in NYC and other predominant Asian communities like Chinatowns.

    BigWOWO, the question is this: can a culture be condemned for actions that the vast majority of its adherents have not committed, lack the opportunity to even attempt, and have not considered given moral and geographic barriers?

    This is an extremely disingenuous use of language. Where has Byron used “vast majority” to refer to “culture” and whereby “culture” is seen as the hip-hop gangster types?

    You’re trying to play the race card by saying the Strawman of “black culture” of which yourself don’t associated to all black people either in terms of other sub-cultures like the castigated LGBT black community.

  211. You’re right. I know when I’m not wanted. I’m in love with hot Asian and Hispanic women. As long as the focus is taken off Asian female and White males, I’m happy. Keep talking about hating Blacks, it helps me in the long run. I took two classes with hot Asian women in it. I’m talking to one. And the other I stare at her hot legs and ass. 😁
    I’m no posting on this topic anymore.

  212. BigWOWO, thank you for answering my query. I appreciate the response, in large measure because it dovetails rather nicely with traditional Black uplift expectations. The whole ‘lifting as we climb’ mantra expects Black people with any measure of economic stability and intellectual capacity to devote their energies toward race uplift, broadly defined. Your perspective makes a similar claim, that personal success coupled with the ability to slide between multiple cultural spheres (the university, the campaign rally, the boardroom, the street) and racial identification morally obliges people like myself to focus on the plight of the Black underclass.

    Because, as you state, if I “don’t try to turn it around, you’re enabling it”. Though I strongly disagree with the idea that I’ve suggested somehow that people are not responsible for their own actions (I believe the opposite, as I’ve stated previously) the argument you make says that not working to reduce low income urban Black criminality creates conditions where it may thrive. Notice the Manichean logic at work: either I work to combat a low income urban Black criminality that I do not commit and is not exposed to me (paraphrasing you), or I support it through a costly inaction.

    This framework does not allow for the possibility that I can be a disinterested third party toward this issue, even though most would reasonably assume that any other person who shares my vantage point, but not my race/ education/ employment background would lack any moral obligation toward finding a solution. Your argument claims that by virtue of my success and immutable characteristics I’m constrained to focus on a particular urban crime problem, even to view that problem in a culturally deterministic light.

    This amounts to an ethical application of the one-drop rule. The success you notice in me does not, by your estimation, allow for greater freedom and opportunity; rather, like generations of Black educators and race leaders, you suggest that my personal success morally obligates me to specific political and social activity, namely the reduction of criminal activity by low income urban Blacks. My own interests are not the point.

    As stated previously, I believe people are responsible for their own actions. BigWOWO, when you say …

    If you use your influence to continue to peddle the idea that people aren’t responsible for their own actions, they’ll continue to shirk responsibility for their own conduct. — BigWOWO

    … you deny the low income urban Black citizens in question personal agency. Anyone who shirks responsibility for their own conduct makes their own decisions to do so, having nothing at all to do with me. Role models are not necessary to deal with crime, and I reject the idea that personal academic or professional success while being Black personally obligates anyone to any specific social or political project. Change nothing about me but my race, and it would not be considered reasonable to expect that resulting person to devote energy and time to reducing low income urban Black crime, even if non-Black social activism on this issue proved decisive in low income urban Black crime reduction.

    Crime is down across America today, in comparison to the early 1990’s. Further, Asian Americans confront crime less than any other group. I do not agree with the idea that a “Black-on-Asian crime wave” exists, but also I disagree that Blacks with economic and/or social success owe the ghetto anything. Racial solidarity might hope that ‘lifting as we climb’ continues to enjoy resonance. I disagree. If anything, identity solidarity may encourage/ suggest that the successful within a particular identity group vote to prevent attacks/ reduction of the rights and privileges group members enjoy, to ensure that group members may retain all the economic and social abilities members of other groups possess within a multicultural state.

    But the idea that the Talented Tenth are morally obligated or required to work on specific social projects, like crime reduction within low income, urban Black communities, does not persuade me. It suggests that people like me have less freedom, based on our identity, than folk from other communities would with similar credentials.

  213. Aardvark, if you wish to learn more about Asian American crime victims, check out this report I linked to earlier, written by Erika Harrell, PhD., a statistician with the Bureau of Justice Statistics at the U.S. Department of Justice. Here’s a quote:

    From 2002 through 2006, comparative nonfatal violent and property victimizations showed—

    • Asians had the lowest rate of violent victimization among all racial or ethnic groups. …
    • Asian households had the lowest rate of property victimization among households of all racial or ethnic groups.

    This is me showing you the numbers. Enjoy your reading.

  214. Snoopy Jenkins,

    Why did you purposely skip this sentence in your citation:

    • Among victims, Asians were more likely than non-Asians
    to be violently victimized by a stranger.

    And do you know who were those strangers who victimized Asians? The black criminals that targeting us. This is what we have been talking about here.

  215. “Asians had the lowest rate of violent victimization” because Asians committed least violent crime against anybody, not because other races committed less violence against us.

    As for property victimization, that data is too old. Black criminals targeting Asian homes to invade started in recent year.

  216. “Why did you purposely skip this sentence in your citation:”

    Thats easy. Snoopy believes in democracy so he wants Asians to be victimized at the same rate as Blacks kinda like how people quote Asian kids are punished at a rate much lower than their population in schools. More Asians need to be victimized to fill the racial quotas.

    Snoopy, you have a death grip on logic. I understand you man.

  217. LOLZ! James Lamb-Fang got schooled yet again!

    At least he’s not quoting from a racist publication this time to try to spin doctor and distortions. It’s completely laughable how he uses the anti-black American Renaissance to quote the numbahs but then immediately back-peddled to BS some empty rhetorics.

  218. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    This framework does not allow for the possibility that I can be a disinterested third party toward this issue, even though most would reasonably assume that any other person who shares my vantage point, but not my race/ education/ employment background would lack any moral obligation toward finding a solution.

    Using $5 words to wax on philosophic empty rhetoric as to why James Lamb-Fang refuses to do anything to help his tribalist tendencies. But then goes on crazy rants about how Asians are stealing jobs and school seats from poor inner-city kids. Sounds about like any maligned self-interest politician out there: not his personal problem, except when he can blame others – especially the easy scapegoats.

    Racial solidarity might hope that ‘lifting as we climb’ continues to enjoy resonance. I disagree….

    But the idea that the Talented Tenth are morally obligated or required to work on specific social projects, like crime reduction within low income, urban Black communities, does not persuade me.

    But, but, but, you’ve previously stated that this country needs to poor more resources into low-income inner cities and give special treatment to those kids. Now it’s the opposite when you’re trying to win online arguments.

    This is why I call you out as a liar and hypocrite: no consistent values and beliefs.

  219. Also, I just want to reiterate yet again James Lamb-Fang hijacked this conversation from where it’s about the LACK of acknowledgement by Reappropriate and other SJW outlets, whereas Jenn Fang go to crazy lengths to “pin the tail on the AM” with her racist lies of toxic hyper-Asian misogilinity and anti-black racism.

  220. Snoopy,

    Thank you also for your well-thought out response. Your ideas about moral obligation are something I’ve thought about a lot–especially as an Asian American.

    Now here’s the thing. You say you have a right to be a disinterested third party. And that’s fine. If, Snoopy, you studied medicine and wanted to devote 100% of your time thinking about the human body and how to heal it and NOT think about Black issues, that would be cool. If you wanted to go to France and study Francophone literature and not think about Black issues, that would be cool. If you wanted to live among White people, ignore Black people, and just live beyond race, that would be cool. If you had no interest in Black people, I think we’d all be fine with that. Hell, even if you were all of these three and had views about Black people that you sometimes or even often discussed, that would be fine.

    But that’s not you. You’ve already chosen to be involved. You’ve got a blog about race. Your wife has a blog about race. You spend a good portion of your day talking about race. You’ve invoked the trope of the underprivileged, poor, oppressed Black Man so many times in our discussions about race. You’ve talked about your own views about the inner city. You’ve called for more Affirmative Action because of the idea that Black people have less money and live in ghettoes, even though you personally don’t, even if most beneficiaries of Affirmative Action don’t, even if poorer Asian Americans lose out to racial discrimination in college admissions. You’ve become a race activist. You can’t claim to want to be a disinterested party when you’ve already chosen not to be, when you’ve already taken a side, especially when you invoke the poor Black Man idea all the time.

    So yes, I do believe you’ve got a moral obligation here. You’ve used that poor Black man thing so many times in order to draw emotion out of the people you’re talking to. If you’re really bothered by it and expect us to feel pity, AND if you have the power to stop it, then you have to stop it.

    Does this make sense?

    Again, if you just happened to be an Ivy-educated Black man, I wouldn’t assume or assign any responsibility here. But you’re an Ivy-educated Black man, successful by your own admission, who happens to invest a lot of time, energy, and commitment into racial issues. If you can fix it, or even if you can help people take one step in the right direction, then you have to.

  221. I’d also have to chime in that if James Lamb-Fang quote the FBI/DOJ statistics for Asians, then he has to accept the same statistics for Blacks. That leads to a very slippery slope of criminality which he probably would rather avoid…

  222. “Asians were targeted by the burglary crews. Gang members would check for Asian names on targeted streets and look for shoes left on porches, a sign that an Asian family might live there. Gang members, police said, believed Asians kept money in their homes and “had the best gold.””

    http://www.dailybreeze.com/general-news/20160826/gang-members-suspected-of-5000-burglaries-arrested-in-torrance-led-police-raids

    Unreal how this black apologist Jimmy Lame-o constantly tries to deny that black criminals specifically target Asian Americans…

  223. Btw, title of the above article is:
    “Gang members suspected of 5,000 burglaries arrested in Torrance-led police raids”

    “East Coast Crips is a primarily black gang made up of various factions located in neighborhoods east of the 110 Freeway in South Los Angeles.”

  224. Forget it. Its completely anecdotal. Just 5000 burglaries. Blacks are targeting Black families much more than they are targeting Asians. Black problems are much worse so Asians have nothing to complain about.

  225. @ Sengge Rinchen

    I don’t need to read John Ogbu’s article.

    Exactly! That’s why you’re retarded. Glad we agree on something.

  226. @ bigWOWO

    If you haven’t already, please read the Ogbu paper I shared. If you have, I request that you do a post on it and share your viewpoints, including where you agree or disagree.

    Black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean are both self-selected and institution-selected.

    Yes, but Black immigrants from the Caribbean tend to be poor yet most join the middle-class in less than a generation through hard work and education. They face the same exact racism as Black Americans, on top of xenophobia due to being foreigners, so we know Blacks in America can succeed in spite of racial and economic barriers.

    Ogbu attributes the reason why they get so far ahead compared to Black Americans to a lack of oppositional identity due to being voluntary minorities, which is not quite the same as culture, depending how you define it. But if by “culture” you simply mean the beliefs and behaviors of a group, then that’s probably different than the definition Ogbu had in mind.

    Based on the followup link I sent you, the conservatives argue that there’s no racial discrimination or systemic barriers, period. All outcomes are based on individual choice and circumstances play no part. The liberals argue that all outcomes are the result of systemic barriers, regardless of individual choice, as if to say people have no agency. Ogbu’s view is centrist, in that there is a combination of both systemic barriers and community choices on the part of minorities.

    Until you confirm you’ve read his paper, I can’t be sure if a meaningful conversation on this topic can be sustained.

  227. It’s pretty telling when some of the most influential Black politicians like Obama, Colin Powell, and Marcus Garvey were or had parents who came to the US as voluntary immigrants. Even those among Black immigrant communities and Black American communities agree that there is a large rift in how they perceive the US and strive within it.

    What interests me is how the members of the voluntary group assimilate within the involuntary group and become leaders within it, like with politicians or with media, like in the 2015 movie Dope, whose director and cast were almost all from the voluntary crowd but talked about issues mainly related to the involuntary crowd.

  228. For all the Fangs’ waxing philosophic about “dis-aggregation of data” to exclude East Asians from data, I’m not surprised of their hypocrisy and double standards when it comes to issues that adversely affect Asian Americans in lieu of their protected URMs:

    http://www.rafu.com/2016/10/hate-crimes-in-l-a-county-increase-24-largest-number-since-2011

    When they lump all the groups together, then of course there’s no such thing as James Lamb Fang’s perverse sentiment of “proportional to population” for everything.

  229. Kiwi,

    I read Ogbu’s paper. But to be honest, I didn’t see anything that stood out for me. I didn’t see anything original. To me, he was just saying what people have always said–those who are forced to immigrate don’t do as well as those who aren’t forced. That seems obvious to me.

    Also, as we discussed above, there’s a huge difference between Koreans in Japan and African Americans. Koreans face legal discrimination; African Americans don’t. African Americans were slaves; Koreans weren’t. Koreans in Japan haven’t formed ghettos, nor (as far as I know) were they forced to live in ghettos. Not to mention the biggest glaring error, which is that lots of Koreans are voluntary. I didn’t see Ogbu mentioning any of this.

    So yes, while I think Ogbu probably has some points, I think we may be best just discussing the main idea, which is that voluntary immigrants have an advantage, which is basically something (in my opinion) that every grade school student in America has learned since the 1970’s.

  230. So? I’ve seen Chinese gangs suckered punch their own people in NYC’s Chinatown during the 1980s. These cowards only prey on their own. During the 1990s, there was an incident where a few Black youths assaulted a few pedestrians in NYC’s Chinatown, and people just stood there to watch the spectacle.

  231. I think the mistake is to accept the narrow identity concept of Asian American as a subgroup of People Of Color. Obviously many Chinese Americans, Japanese Americans and Indian Americans are far better of than Korean and Vietnamese Americans. We have internal traitors among us with Jenny Fang who is married to a black man. Her idea to disaggregate data about API voters is an obvious move to weaken the swing vote power of the API voting bloc.

    In my opinion our task is to pull the Koreans and Southeast Asian Americans out of the black neighborhoods and settle them into white neighborhoods to maximize API swing vote power in mixed neighborhoods. That means that we should adapt Cohousing concepts and deliver interest-free credit and equity capital. We need lawyers in Nevada to establish franchise chains and provide the poor Asian Americans with jobs. Nevada has no franchise tax. In order to provide SME credit with low interest rate we need SME Securization to circumvent banks. A treaty with Asian Diasporas in the EU will deliver us assets for securization. We need a broker in the Offshore Finance isles near the US coast to do the transactions with Asian Diasporas in the EU. You as US citizen cannot buy European bonds, but Asian Diasporas in the EU can do it for you. Alternatively you need real estate assets to secure SME credit – that means you need real estate agent in every important metropolitan region.

    It is also a very good idea to establish boarding schools in continental Europe to get your kids into college and university. You use to much family capital for a university degree. Engineering degrees in Germany are cheap. You only need 5 000 EUR for study fees. Scandinawia is a cheap place to get a degree. The Netherland and Austria is also moderate. Many medicine students from Germany move to Austria to get an medicine degree. More expensive is Swiss. A degree in finance is also possible in Ireland. It is very likely that after the Brexit the finance industry in Ireland will skyrock.

    Further you should select a trustworthy person to act as dealer for DragonFly – a provider for DIY security cameras. Alerts are send with email and SMS. You can create virtual neighborhoods with familiy, friends and neighbors who decide the actions if an alert occurs.

    Maybe it is a good idea to include Native Americans in your voting bloc, because they have some economic rights that you can bargain with your skills, contacts and capital.

    You also definitely need firearm training for old people and women to make the risk for attackers bigger. Men should also know how to work together in a fire brigade.

  232. @ bigWOWO

    But I think the main thing is that the crime rate really isn’t so high, even in cultural subgroups among Koreans.

    From what I read, the largest Yakuza syndicate in Japan was estimated to be about 70% Korean and Burakumin (also involuntary minorities). What aardvark was saying starts to make sense in that context.

    Also, the perception that Koreans are criminals does seem to be prevalent among Japanese, which the following Youtube channel is an example of. Read the video description.

    Zainichi Korean crime – Taxi theft
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVrjvJuw4Oo

    Tokyo’s former governor, Shintaro Ishihara, claimed Koreans and Chinese (also involuntary minorities) would riot during social unrest, so we know these attitudes are common at every level of Japanese society.

    If we were to look at Korean test scores, they might be (or might not be) lower than the Japanese test scores, given the crap they have to go through, but I’d be surprised if they were all that low.

    Koreans in Japan score 16 points lower than Japanese on IQ tests, which is similar to the 15 point gap often cited between Blacks and Whites in the US. That’s a whole standard deviation.

    Koreans face legal discrimination; African Americans don’t.

    Depends on your definition. History shows plenty of case studies where laws that were racially neutral on the surface were applied discriminately. It was the basis for Yick Wo v. Hopkins, which was later used in Brown v. Board to strike down “separate but equal” as discriminatory. Executive Order 9066 makes no mention of race or ethnicity whatsoever but it’s widely accepted as the cause of the Japanese American internment. I consider it legal discrimination.

    Koreans in Japan haven’t formed ghettos, nor (as far as I know) were they forced to live in ghettos.

    Koreans do live in ghettos in Japan. Some of the poorest neighborhoods in Tokyo and Osaka are Korean. Koreans were forced to live in separate neighborhoods in Imperial Japan when they were brought over as forced laborers. The Japanese far-right organizes hundreds of marches to intimidate Korean neighborhoods every year.

    Paper about a book written by a Zainichi who grew up in a Korean neighborhood in Japan:

    Zainichi Recognitions: Japan’s Korean Residents’ Ideology and Its Discontents
    http://apjjf.org/-John-Lie/2939/article.html

    What interested me is how Kaneshiro described his own ethnicity as a “problem” minority that has a propensity towards violence and gangs, similar to Blacks in the US.

    Discrimination Against Koreans in Japan: Japan’s Violation of the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination
    http://tbinternet.ohchr.org/Treaties/CERD/Shared%20Documents/JPN/INT_CERD_NGO_JPN_17768_E.pdf

    Not to mention the biggest glaring error, which is that lots of Koreans are voluntary.

    At least among non-citizen Koreans in Japan, about 85% are involuntary. I’m sure the voluntary group is better off, just as Ogbu said voluntary immigrant Blacks in the US are better off than slave-descendent Blacks.

    Look, I’m not saying the Korean experience in Japan is identical or even similar to the Black experience in America. I just think it’s helpful to compare different countries’ experiences with minorities because that’s the most effective way to study and understand social patterns like oppositional cultures that tend to develop among involuntary minorities.

    I think we may be best just discussing the main idea, which is that voluntary immigrants have an advantage, which is basically something (in my opinion) that every grade school student in America has learned since the 1970’s.

    You’d be amazed (or maybe not) by the immense disservice US schools do by teaching that racism and discrimination are the cause of all inequalities and how oppositional cultures play no role in perpetuating them. I’ve listened to Asian American far-left liberals argue that Asians face little to no racism and are “privileged” in order to explain Asians’ higher socioeconomic condition relative to Blacks. Even when you present fact that upend their theories, they don’t listen.

    What makes it so damning is that in California, where the vast majority of Asian Americans lived during the early 1900s, Asians faced greater racial discrimination than Blacks. (Eg: Asians were forced by law to go to segregated schools while Blacks were not. Blacks could vote while Asians could not. Asians were paid like Blacks but had more qualifications. etc) And yet, Asians regularly come out of the UCs thinking Blacks had it worst because none of them actually learned real history.

    UPWARD MOBILITY AND DISCRIMINATION: THE CASE OF ASIAN AMERICANS
    http://papers.nber.org/tmp/55364-w22748.pdf

    The study makes the solid case that Asians faced worse racial barriers than Blacks in California but ended up better off than Blacks in spite of that due to their voluntary immigrant status. That’s something the likes of Snoopy won’t admit to.

  233. Really insightful links and comments by Kiwi. I’d also like to add that Asian and other immigrants have strong “family values” and units whereby generationally everybody helps one another and that gives a leg up on the US sick system of breaking up Black families thru criminalizing Black men.

    While in some ways it is about respecting the law, but given the over-zealous popo in this country there’s something to be said about institutional racism that still persists today. T_T

    On that note, have a great weekend!

  234. Kiwi,

    Can you document any of that? Specifically, can you document your statements about IQ, ghettos, and violence? If you could, please also document that 85% are involuntary.

    I’m not doubting that these numbers and stats were published somewhere, but I do think it’s possible that they may have been published by a Ramakrishnan-type who may have been more concerned with ideology than facts. When I was there, we were told that there were no dangerous ghettos, and for the most part, none of us ever faced problems with crime, no matter where we walked. I know for a fact that lots of successful “Japanese” people are actually ethnically Korean; the wealthiest man in Japan right now (Masayoshi Son) is ethnically Korean. The 15 point IQ gap seems VERY hard to believe, especially as that data would be quite hard to gather: if a person has a Japanese last name and citizenship but happened to be ethnically Korean, how is she labelled? What about people who are half-Korean?

    If you could find a report that was published by the Japanese, that would be more helpful than one by Americans who’ve never set foot in Japan. I’m just doubtful of many of the reports coming from American academics looking to make a point.

    If you’re saying that Koreans (and Chinese) have a reputation for petty crime in Japan, that would be correct. But from what I saw, it was mostly because Koreans and Chinese worked in either menial work or in seedy industries. The Japanese identify them by their accents, which would indicate that they’re voluntary immigrants.

  235. @bigWOWO,

    it was mostly because Koreans and Chinese worked in either menial work or in seedy industries. The Japanese identify them by their accents, which would indicate that they’re voluntary immigrants.

    I’m just trying to keep things honest around here, and I would have to pull a comparison in the US and Caribbean Islands’ history. In the US, because of cultural isolation, for the most part, Black communities have developed their own internal lexicons (ebonics) and it’s because of resistance by the ruling class to “assimilate” freed slaves. And in the Caribbean, lots of former sugar plantation countries have slaves who developed their own pidgin languages (Haitian Creole), whereby the UK didn’t have direct interactions like the US.

    So I’m saying that accents is not necessarily “voluntary” immigrants.

    And as far the “menial work or in seedy industries,” it reminds me of the US history with Chinese, Japanese, Filipinos, Mexicans, etc, at al. Are there any other forms of “dignified” work that’s available to them that the mainstream power establishment allows, or it’s a case like the US whereby these are the only types of jobs that the ruling class allows them?

    the wealthiest man in Japan right now (Masayoshi Son) is ethnically Korean.

    This is like making a statement in the US where at one point Will Smith is the highest paid movie star, and Tiger Woods is the highest paid (biracial) sports celebrity, and Obama (biracial) is the highest position of power in the “free world” and therefore there’s no discrimination in the US and the cops shooting innocent Black men can be ignored or that movies like the 13th can’t point out the US incarceration rates for Black men is questionable.

    I’m making a slight exaggeration here and bordering James Lamb-Fang, but I think the point I’m trying to make is clear where because of a few exceptions, doesn’t mean the vast majority of America’s people of color aren’t discriminated against.

    I’m not doubting that these numbers and stats were published somewhere, but I do think it’s possible that they may have been published by a Ramakrishnan-type who may have been more concerned with ideology than facts.

    I think there should definitely be reliable data out there that’s academically rigorous with their methodology. However, I’d also caution against papers coming out of Japan, where they have a vested interest to show themselves in the best light as possible and ignore social problems and historical problems (WW2 atrocities).

    The US is very guilty of this on the international stage also, so reliable data and facts are needed before prejudice gets in the way of the truth.

    Also, it appears that other ethnic Asians are very small minority and the fact “you really can’t tell them apart” (T_T), and that 2nd generation children can pick up language without any accents, it’s hard to distinguish ethnic Koreans/Chinese if they don’t want to be known as “gaijin” and try to blend in as much as possible to reap social benefits.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans_in_Japan

  236. @ bigWOWO

    Can you document any of that? Specifically, can you document your statements about IQ, ghettos, and violence?

    Aw crap. I made a mistake. The IQ gap was for Burakumin, not Koreans.

    I haven’t seen my source in a while but I think this is it:
    https://unsafeharbour.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/burakumin-and-koreans-in-japan/

    The data shows Koreans are even worse off than Burakumin in terms of education, so I suspect their IQ gap is even bigger. Not surprising, considering the immense legal and social barriers they face.

    The following describes Koreans forming ghettos and engaging in crime:
    http://spice.fsi.stanford.edu/docs/koreans_in_japan

    No specific reference to violent crime, but given their representation in the Yakuza, I have little reason to doubt it. Anyway, there at least has to be a reason the Japanese would complain about Korean crime.

    If you could, please also document that 85% are involuntary.

    The 85% is calculated from the numbers provided in the “Discrimination Against Koreans in Japan” study I linked:

    “It is estimated that there are approximately one million Korean residents living in Japan on a permanent basis, including those holding Japanese nationality (there is no official statistics by the Japanese government on the total number of Koreans with Japanese nationality) as of 2014. Among them, 430,000 Koreans are living in Japan as foreign nationals with permanent residency as of December 2013. Approximately 370,000 of these 430,000 Koreans are individuals who had been forced to live in Japan in the first half of the twentieth century, when Korea was under Japanese colonial rule, and their descendants. They have been given special permanent residency status, a category separate from general permanent residency status.”

    if a person has a Japanese last name and citizenship but happened to be ethnically Korean, how is she labelled? What about people who are half-Korean?

    As you mentioned, Koreans in Japan have the option of assimilating whereas Black Americans don’t. Ogbu described Jews as autonomous minorities: Whites who are distinct by markers like religion or ethnicity. I think it’s similar for Koreans who opt to Japanize. Like Jews, Koreans escape total oppression by assimilating but still face discrimination if they are revealed.

    100 years ago, Jews in America scored lower than Whites on IQ tests, lived in ghettos, formed their own mafia, and were poor, but now that they’ve passed into Whiteness and were voluntary immigrants to begin with, they excel on all counts. That could happen for Koreans in Japan, too, regardless of voluntary/involuntary status. The Irish were involuntary immigrants but left the city slums long ago.

    As for mixed Koreans, I suppose it’s like for Black/White biracials, who have IQs similar to Whites. Because of the one-drop rule, this leads me to think parenting, rather than discrimination, plays in a bigger role in cognitive outcomes.

  237. @ bigWOWO

    I know for a fact that lots of successful “Japanese” people are actually ethnically Korean

    No doubt. Like aardvark pointed out, a lot of successful Americans are Black.

    Here’s a list of famous Zainichi:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Koreans_in_Japan

    Notice how it comes up short on academia, science, and technology, which are usually the realm of voluntary minorities, like Asians in the US, but it’s quite heavy on sports, music, and entertainment, like Blacks in the US. Ogbu compared how Black parents hoped their kids would go into sports or music whereas Chinese parents hoped their kids would go into science or academia. I have a feeling this pattern holds for every country’s minorities.

  238. Kiwi,

    With all due respect, your numbers are all over the place. First you said that Koreans had a lower IQ, but now you and the blog post (not article) you link says there were no IQ tests done on Koreans but were instead done on Burakumin (a demographic that I know almost nothing about). Then you say that they’re stuck in ghettoes, but the one Stanford study you link only talks about ghettoes formed by FIRST GENERATION IMMIGRANTS during the 1930’s which was PRIOR to any forced migration, which means that this whole ghetto discussion is irrelevant to the “involuntary minority” thing.

    The 85% is calculated from the numbers provided in the “Discrimination Against Koreans in Japan” study I linked:

    “It is estimated that there are approximately one million Korean residents living in Japan on a permanent basis, including those holding Japanese nationality (there is no official statistics by the Japanese government on the total number of Koreans with Japanese nationality) as of 2014. Among them, 430,000 Koreans are living in Japan as foreign nationals with permanent residency as of December 2013. Approximately 370,000 of these 430,000 Koreans are individuals who had been forced to live in Japan in the first half of the twentieth century, when Korea was under Japanese colonial rule, and their descendants. They have been given special permanent residency status, a category separate from general permanent residency status.”

    Kiwi, something is very off with this too. WWII was 70 years ago. People who lived there after WWII had the option of either leaving (which many did) or becoming Japanese. So even though 85% of non-citizen Koreans in Japan may be “involuntary” (and yes, I guess that sounds reasonable if you’re only talking about the non-citizens who reside in the country), the numbers don’t account for the “involuntary” people who “voluntarily” became citizens. If you look here, it looks like the Japanese government wants them to become citizens:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/02/news/japanborn-koreans-live-in-limbo.html?_r=0

    It begs the question of why they didn’t apply and whether non-applicants may be self-selected towards those not looking to climb a corporate ladder.

    But more to the point, I just don’t see the achievement gap that you’re describing.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Koreans_in_Japan

    According to wiki (which is probably about right), there are around 856,000 people in Japan of Korean ethnicity, and there is a population of about 127.3 million people in Japan. If these numbers are right, Koreans, citizens and non-citizens, only comprise 0.67% of the population (which is a FRACTION of the percentage of Jews in the U.S.), and only about HALF of these people have Japanese citizenship and the rights that come with citizenship. Using the 470,000 non-citizen number, we’ve got 386,000 Koreans with Japanese citizenship and full legal status. At only 0.3% of the population, Koreans in Japan with full legal status have done so well that their numbers include the richest man in the entire country, as well as lots of celebrities and thinkers and probably thousands of other similarly successful individuals who are not as well known.

    I think you’d have to say that they’re doing quite well.

    Yeah, I know I’m harping on this, but I know lots of Koreans in Japan who’ve done well. I just don’t see the parallel. Plus, of course, I don’t want Snoopy to use this as a crutch for his victim narrative. It’s not good for his health.

  239. @ bigWOWO

    First you said that Koreans had a lower IQ, but now you and the blog post (not article) you link says there were no IQ tests done on Koreans but were instead done on Burakumin (a demographic that I know almost nothing about).

    The graphs in the blog post cite their literature sources. Whether you want to buy and read them I leave up to you. The fact stands that Koreans in Japan underperform academically compared to Burakumin, who have a 16 point IQ gap.

    ghettoes formed by FIRST GENERATION IMMIGRANTS during the 1930’s which was PRIOR to any forced migration

    Korea was a Japanese colony at the time, not an independent nation. Korean “immigrants” were involuntary minorities in the same way Puerto Rican “immigrants” who move to the US mainland are involuntary.

    this whole ghetto discussion is irrelevant to the “involuntary minority” thing.

    Voluntary minorities can often start out in ghettos, but due to their assimilative behaviors, they eventually move on to better conditions and join the middle class, as Chinese and Jews did in the US. They don’t remain trapped in ghettos or reservations as a permanent underclass like involuntary minorities, eg: Black and Natives in the US.

    People who lived there after WWII had the option of either leaving (which many did) or becoming Japanese.

    So did Black Americans (minus the option of becoming White). That’s what the Back-to-Africa movement was about. Even today, Blacks have the option of traveling to other countries and becoming voluntary minorities. In France, Black Americans are seen as a model minority while Black Americans who colonized Liberia ended up becoming the oppressors.

    the numbers don’t account for the “involuntary” people who “voluntarily” became citizens.

    Black Americans are “voluntarily” citizens but they’re still involuntary minorities with an oppositional culture. However, like you said, Koreans in Japan have the option of becoming Japanese. Blacks don’t have the option of becoming White whereas Jews did.

    Koreans in Japan with full legal status have done so well that their numbers include the richest man in the entire country, as well as lots of celebrities and thinkers and probably thousands of other similarly successful individuals who are not as well known.

    Like aardvark pointed out, we can say much the same about Blacks in the US.

    I know lots of Koreans in Japan who’ve done well.

    I believe you. There are also people who know lots of Blacks in the US who do well. I believe them, too. But as a binational in Japan, do you think your social circles were a truly random, representative sample of the general population? As a successful professional, chances were you were going to hang around and make friends with people with similar socioeconomic backgrounds as you.

  240. Kiwi,

    I’m not convinced about the achievement gap, especially because of the questions with how they label Koreans. My guess is that they only looked at the non-residents (it’s not evident from the blog how they came up with their data). How do they tell them apart? There would be no way to do so. Even a Japanese person can’t tell a second-generation Korean from a Japanese.

    Aside from the problems with labeling, there is the issue of 0.3% of the population achieving all that success. Take a look at all those names. I’ve heard of many of them, and I don’t even live there! And these Koreans with Japanese citizenship number fewer than 400,000? That’s fewer than the total number of Finnish Americans. We Asian Americans are 5.6% of the U.S. population, and you don’t see us rockin’ that kind of influence. The “miracle exception” theory wouldn’t be enough to explain this either.

    Seriously, it’s just really hard to make this story work. Now if we are in fact just talking about non-citizens, then yes, it probably makes sense. Even then, I’d think we’d need a fuller picture before trying to explain it. It’s hard for us who are removed from that experience to see all the reasons why inequalities might exist.

    Korea was a Japanese colony at the time, not an independent nation. Korean “immigrants” were involuntary minorities in the same way Puerto Rican “immigrants” who move to the US mainland are involuntary.

    By this reasoning, a Hong Konger who moved to Britain before the 1990’s would be an involuntary immigrant. I can see where you’re coming from, but personally, I would call that “voluntary.” I think most such immigrants who made that journey would also call that voluntary. In fact, I know people who made that journey and call it voluntary. I imagine there are people who are screaming, “We didn’t land on Big Ben; Big Ben landed on us!” But that’s not typically the attitude of people who voluntarily move to a different area to start a new life. That’s usually the attitude of people analyzing after the fact.

    Keep in mind that it’s often a matter of mindset. We had to jump all the way back to the 1930’s for “proof” of these Korean ghettoes–but you now see that they didn’t exist for long, which defeats the common notion of what it ghetto is supposed to be. My grandparents lived in Chinatown when they first came to this country. They would never refer to it as a ghetto, though I wouldn’t be surprised if some Leftist writing about them were to label it as such.

    Above, you wrote:

    Kiwi on October 25, 2016 at 12:44 am said:
    The culture argument is a tough sell since Koreans in Japan suffer the same problems (crime, poverty, dropouts etc.) as Black Americans, yet do fine in China and the US.

    So maybe we should get specific. I don’t see Koreans in Japan playing the Knockout Game, assaulting teachers, having a seemingly intractable problem with single motherhood, abusing drugs, or having a Korean Lives Matter movement where they take a violent criminal and turn him into a martyr. I don’t see intergenerational crime, poverty, ghettoes, or any of that.

    I hope you agree that the subject matter in the OP is still interesting. Maybe we should just talk about Black Americans and Asian Americans. I hope you agree: there’s really no need for a parallel example since it looks like this problem is quite unique to the U.S.

  241. @ bigWOWO

    How do they tell them apart?

    I guess they asked the people they studied.

    Aside from the problems with labeling, there is the issue of 0.3% of the population achieving all that success.

    You mean in sports, music, and entertainment? Again, that also applies to US Blacks.

    We Asian Americans are 5.6% of the U.S. population, and you don’t see us rockin’ that kind of influence.

    I agree that we don’t have a lot of entertainers, sports stars, or musicians, especially compared to Blacks. But on the other hand, we have a massive presence at high tech companies in Silicon Valley and top universities across the country.

    We had to jump all the way back to the 1930’s for “proof” of these Korean ghettoes–but you now see that they didn’t exist for long, which defeats the common notion of what it ghetto is supposed to be.

    I think the situation has gotten a lot better over time, but that has mostly to do with Koreans assimilating and becoming Japanese, which we seem to agree on.

    Japan’s Invisible Minority: Better Off Than in Past, but StillOutcasts
    http://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/30/world/japan-s-invisible-minority-better-off-than-in-past-but-stilloutcasts.html?pagewanted=all

    The article was from over 20 years ago, so I assume the situation has improved even more since, which may explain why you didn’t really see it when you were in Japan. But they do mention historical social pathologies afflicting Burakumin (and presumably Koreans since they’re more easily identifiable) like slums, poverty, unemployment, welfare, alcoholism, single parents, low IQ, truancy, low college attendance, crime, gangs, and arrests.

    I hope you agree: there’s really no need for a parallel example since it looks like this problem is quite unique to the U.S.

    Let’s agree to disagree. China has plenty of involuntary minorities, like Uyghurs, whom the Han Chinese view as violent criminals. I had family members in Urumqi during the 2009 riots, when Uyghurs went on a rampage killing hundreds of Han Chinese. I see this social behavior as a consequence of their oppositional culture, which was developed in response to being invaded and conquered by China. Uyghurs do worse academically and some join terrorist groups (which are not really different than gangs); all these traits are the domain of involuntary minorities.

  242. Kiwi,

    Have you ever confirmed your theory with a Japanese?

    I found an article about Koreans in Japan on a Chinese website (http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_4221485_1.html), written by a Chinese who has lived in Japan for many years. The article talked about Korean immigrants history, their special status, their accomplishment, the Yakuza and the discrimination they faced. It is more consistent with what Byron said. Also, your number that 70% Yakuza are Korean is totally wrong. Those Korean immigrants have nothing can be compared with Black people in this country besides being discriminated.

    China has plenty of involuntary minorities, like Uyghurs, whom the Han Chinese view as violent criminals. I had family members in Urumqi during the 2009 riots, when Uyghurs went on a rampage killing hundreds of Han Chinese. I see this social behavior as a consequence of their oppositional culture, which was developed in response to being invaded and conquered by China. Uyghurs do worse academically and some join terrorist groups (which are not really different than gangs); all these traits are the domain of involuntary minorities.

    Han Chinese don’t view Uyghurs as violent criminals. There are few Uyghurs in other part of China besides XinJiang, Han Chinese hardly form any opinion of their own about Uyghurs besides what they saw on TV and newspaper which were all positive in the past.

    Since Deng’s reform, China become more mobile, there are more Uyghurs go to other part of China to do business. So in big cities like Beijing where there are a lot of Uyghurs migrant workers, they do have the reputation of being more aggressive and higher crime rate. But this kind of thing has nothing to do with involuntary minorities. Han Chinese from northeast China are also viewed as more violent, hot tempered and aggressive, the migrant workers in Beijing from northeastern China also have higher crime rate. There are 56 ethnic minorities in China, most of them don’t have this reputation.

    It is true that any ethnic minorities in China do worse academically, but many do well too. Academic performance in China is more area related rather than ethnicity. People from historically more cultured and more developed area like south eastern region do better academically, north and west do worse, regardless if Han or not.

  243. Kiwi,

    Take a look at that list again (glad I donated to Wiki again this year). It’s not just “sports, music, and entertainment.” Like you said, I knew Koreans in Japan, and not many of them were in sports, music, or entertainment. Most were in normal fields like the rest of us. I wouldn’t say that there is a “massive presence” of Koreans in Japanese tech, but we’ve gotta remember: they’re only 0.3% of the population!

    I’m thinking the reputation of Koreans in Japan is probably similar to how ChineseMom describes Chinese attitudes towards Uyghurs. Most probably don’t think of them much, but when they some see Koreans handing out leaflets for girlie bars, they might think, “Oh, a Korean. Again!” It’s there, but it’s very subtle and not necessarily transferable to other areas–just because they notice Koreans in sketchy industries doesn’t mean that they’re going to discriminate against a Korean docctor or X-ray technician. It’s not the same kind of outright discrimination that we see in America like, for example, when an Asian dude tries to apply to college and runs into legal prejudice. I’m also thinking that the problems you’re describing have more to do with citizenship than anything else. See that article above that I posted about the nurse.

    Anyway, let’s agree to disagree on this one.

  244. @Byron,

    Your list is a historical pool of prominent Koreans in Japan as well, so let’s keep the discussion to the limits you were specifying in terms of contemporary 21st century discrimination issues.

    So given that 0.3% number that identifies as ethnic Koreans, what’s the percentage that doesn’t and “assimilated” into Japanese society? And what’s the percentage of that 0.3% that “made it” in the mainstream?

    Even as wikipedia pointed out, there is overt discrimination against ethnic minorities in Japan – except for the “westerners” obviously. T_T I think we can get into the numbers a bit, but it detracts from the overall discussion of whether the dominant society allows the minorities to prosper or not.

    I think some of the cultural comparisons between African Americans in the US and Koreans in Japan fall apart in terms of

    I don’t see Koreans in Japan playing the Knockout Game, assaulting teachers, having a seemingly intractable problem with single motherhood, abusing drugs, or having a Korean Lives Matter movement where they take a violent criminal and turn him into a martyr. I don’t see intergenerational crime, poverty, ghettoes, or any of that.

    How much of this is just cursory glance and buying into the media propaganda of “social harmony” vs actually knowing the culture living from a minority perspective there?

    ChineseMom goes onto great lengths to propagandize “China’s harmonious society” when the reality is somewhere between the CCP propaganda and racist US/UK propaganda.

    @kiwi,

    Voluntary minorities can often start out in ghettos, but due to their assimilative behaviors, they eventually move on to better conditions and join the middle class, as Chinese and Jews did in the US. They don’t remain trapped in ghettos or reservations as a permanent underclass like involuntary minorities, eg: Black and Natives in the US.

    Other than Native Americans, I take issue with this statement. Chinatowns are still ethnic enclaves of poverty as enforced by the dominant society. African-American communities are also similar, except for Black dominant areas like Atlanta.

    Asian Americans have a little upwards mobility due to the high-tech industries, but that’s just because the playing field is so biased towards higher-incomes all over the world and the US knows it needs these brains and has to compete. Otherwise, lots of Chinatowns have people living in poverty who work menial labor jobs:

    http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Families-live-jammed-into-Chinatown-rooms-with-6663902.php

    http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Chinatown-family-life-what-tourists-don-t-see-3277393.php

  245. Asian Americans have a little upwards mobility due to the high-tech industries, but that’s just because the playing field is so biased towards higher-incomes all over the world and the US knows it needs these brains and has to compete. -aardvark

    Is there a reason why more Blacks and Latinos don’t try their hands in computer engineering/programming? It’s one of the few fields where more brains and talent begets more jobs and that’s why there is relatively little resentment that there are so many asians in these fields; ie the asians are stealing their (white) jobs — at least not the ones living in North America. It’s also an area where a bachelor degree isn’t absolutely mandatory as long as you can demonstrate your knowledge through online “portfolios”. If you can write kickass apps, then you should do alright.

  246. @ bigWOWO

    I agree, citizenship for Zainichi does seem to make a big difference in so much that it’s a path to assimilation and escaping minority status.

    See that article above that I posted about the nurse.

    Whether or not we agree that Koreans in Japan are involuntary, the article confirmed that among non-citizens at least, there is an oppositional culture. The fact that Chung refused to naturalize as a form of resistance to assimilation, even sacrificing a job opportunity to do so, is indicative of maladaptive behaviors often exhibited by involuntary minorities. It was also telling that her father was a Korean nationalist who actively resisted Japanese rule, even though he chose to “immigrate” to Japan. Korean ethnic nationalism in the early 1900s was constructed in opposition to Japanese ethnic identity, so I see adopting that ideology as a fast track to involuntary status. It also explains why so many Koreans refuse to naturalize, so I see your point about Koreans voluntarily becoming citizens. They stopped resisting.

    @ chinesemom

    your number that 70% Yakuza are Korean is totally wrong.

    That’s because I don’t have a number claiming 70% of Yakuza are Korean. I have a number claiming 75% of the biggest Yakuza syndicate during the 1990s was Korean and Burakumin.

    It is true that any ethnic minorities in China do worse academically, but many do well too.

    All ethnic minorities in China have significant IQ gaps except those who technically count as autonomous minorities, like Hui people.

    https://openpsych.net/forum/attachment.php?aid=616

    I suspect Hakka people have higher IQs than Han Chinese, as they have a reputation as the “Jews of Asia”, and thus are autonomous as well.

    Academic performance in China is more area related rather than ethnicity.

    False. Ethnic minorities score worse on IQ tests than Han Chinese who live in the same place, or even attend the same schools. Even in the absence of discrimination, oppositional culture leads to academic disengagement.

  247. Kiwi,

    All ethnic minorities in China have significant IQ gaps except those who technically count as autonomous minorities, like Hui people.

    I think some autonomous ethnic minorities in China (like Tibetans, Mongols, Uyghurs, and etc.) probably have lower average IQ score than Han Chinese, even compare with Hans living in the same area. Hui people should have about the same IQ as Hans.

    I suspect Hakka people have higher IQs than Han Chinese, as they have a reputation as the “Jews of Asia”, and thus are autonomous as well.

    Hakka people are part of Han, not considered as an ethnic minority and not autonomous.

    That IQ paper is very misleading for non-Chinese and those who are not trained in this kind of study. It only showed IQ studies on 28 of 55 ethnic minorities, all from less developed areas of China. Ethnic Koreans and Manchus, two highly intelligent and accomplished minorities, were not included. Their claim that “IQs of all the 28 ethnic minorities have lower average Greenwich IQs than the Han IQ of 105.9” is meaningless, because they compared minorities from less developed areas with average IQ of Han Chinese.

    False. Ethnic minorities score worse on IQ tests than Han Chinese who live in the same place, or even attend the same schools.

    I don’t believe you have data on this. It is only true for some minorities as I said earlier. In general, I believe academic performance in China is more area related rather than ethnicity.

  248. aardvark,

    ChineseMom goes onto great lengths to propagandize “China’s harmonious society” when the reality is somewhere between the CCP propaganda and racist US/UK propaganda.

    Do you have a brain?Or you just automatically classify anything that is not completely negative about China as CCP propaganda? I’d like to know what CCP or racist US/UK propaganda on Han Chinese view on Uyghurs, or what they said about academic performance of ethnic minorities compare to Han Chinese.

  249. I’m having a good Sunday evening catching up on my own projects so I’m not gonna get bogged down into online flame wars.

    However, I just saw this segment and have to say Trevor Noah is the most sensible talk show host there is.

    https://youtu.be/kXi3dKUgRy0?t=255

  250. @ chinesemom

    I think some autonomous ethnic minorities in China (like Tibetans, Mongols, Uyghurs, and etc.) probably have lower average IQ score than Han Chinese

    Tibetans, Mongols, and Uyghurs don’t count as autonomous minorities because they’re not considered Han Chinese and have cognitive deficits. They fit the involuntary category.

    Hakka people are part of Han, not considered as an ethnic minority and not autonomous.

    I’m guessing you didn’t bother reading the earlier exchanges. Minorities can be split up into autonomous, voluntary, or involuntary. If Hakka people are considered Han, that means they’re autonomous, especially as they likely don’t have cognitive deficits.

    Ethnic Koreans and Manchus, two highly intelligent and accomplished minorities, were not included.

    Like I said earlier, Koreans in China are voluntary. Manchu are seen as basically Han, and so are autonomous. So neither should have deficits.

    I believe academic performance in China is more area related rather than ethnicity.

    There may be studies out there that say which is more significant. Black Americans in the North have higher IQs than White Americans in the South. That doesn’t change the fact that race/ethnicity is an important factor. I don’t doubt that if you adjust for region, some achievement gaps may narrow, but I doubt they’d close completely.

  251. @mmjames,

    Is there a reason why more Blacks and Latinos don’t try their hands in computer engineering/programming? It’s one of the few fields where more brains and talent begets more jobs and that’s why there is relatively little resentment that there are so many asians in these fields

    I’ve seen some Blacks and Latinos in engineering fields. Unfortunately not enough, because of the amount of education involved and how the US system fails most of its students and how it’s just cheaper to import the coding brains from other countries.

    the asians are stealing their (white) jobs — at least not the ones living in North America.

    Unfortunately, this is one of those industries where nobody talks about much, the outsourcing of programming and design jobs to China and India. In my industry, the only thing that’s left are “defense” related.

    Also, no matter how the Trumpkins throw temper tantrums, White folks aren’t going to be picking lettuce and cleaning bathrooms for minimum wage, let alone under the table type $5/hr like most farm workers.

  252. ChineseMom the temper tantrum provocateur wrote,

    Do you have a brain?Or you just automatically classify anything that is not completely negative about China as CCP propaganda? I’d like to know what CCP or racist US/UK propaganda on Han Chinese view on Uyghurs, or what they said about academic performance of ethnic minorities compare to Han Chinese.

    How’s having a brain related to pointing out your racist rhetoric? I’ve called out the anti-China rhetoric plenty of times here, but I’m not a tool for the CPP propaganda either.

    The truth is there are tons of problems in China and it behooves you to recognize them and start talking about solutions. You have no qualms about whatever perceived malaise for African Americans, but your racism stops at China’s territorial waters? James Hypocrite Lamb-Fang’s in good company there.

    As far Uyghurs go, like I said: the truth is somewhere between the CCP propaganda vs the US/UK propaganda. I have no doubts the CIA is financing separatist groups to cause violent uprisings, but at the same time I also agree that China isn’t doing everything possible to help them get out of poverty and exploit the people/region for Beijing’s profit.

    I also believe that IQ tests only measure IQ test taking ability, and that inherently there’s nothing less intelligent about people from anywhere in the world.

  253. Re: Latinos & Blacks in computer science or coding

    Can’t speak for everyone, and there haven’t been any polls that I know of. In my experience, the most cited reason those who i have talked to are not into it is that it’s boring.

    In college, what I saw was that the math and programming courses tended to act as filters. I’ve never been great at math, but I managed, and I don’t need it for most of the stuff I do or am interested in. The programming classes were a lot easier for me, but if you take one, you can very easily see why it’s not for everyone. It requires concentration, and methodical thinking. And the classes are full of nerds (some of whom are hygiene challenged too).

    A bit of an aside: many of the same people have no problems doing complicated crap in Excel, which is pretty much a 4th generation programming language and environment. Go figure!

    A lot of the people from my HighSchool ended up doing well in business administration, marketing, accounting and even medicine. One of them, a woman, has some sort of marketing position for Microsoft and she’s doing great.

    Re: IT pay

    It still pays relatively well, but not as well as they have always led people to believe– specially considering the abuse of the exempt salary classification, the 80+ hours that many people end up putting under that classification, and the unpaid on-call crap that many companies love to pull on IT workers. If I could go back in time, I’d probably pick a different major– maybe something more geared towards being entrepreneurial, or something related to people care (though nurses are the other field where a lot of jobs are being outsourced).

  254. I have to agree with Notty. Computer science and coding are not easy, and most of the guys you have to hang with are what many consider nerdy. I know some typical Asian geeks from college who couldn’t deal with staring at a screen for hours. It’s brutally boring at times. You don’t get normal amounts of person-to-person interaction, and when you do, it’s usually because someone is yelling at you (or you’re yelling at someone else) for not getting something done within a short time-frame. Anyone who has ever spent hours looking for an off-by-one problem knows how annoying it can get. Sure, you don’t need a degree…but arguably it’s easier to just get a degree than to spend time building up a programming portfolio.

    There was a well-known racist that once recommended that black guys go into sales, since it’s all about talking quickly, requires relatively minimal studying, and since the jobs pay well. I actually think this is a fine idea if you can do it–I can speak from personal experience to say that sales can be very rewarding–but I don’t think everyone is cut out to be a salesman either. Nursing, elder care, marketing, paralegal work, and government work are probably the most secure tickets out there. Teaching is actually a great profession with great pay for less work than most jobs require.

    In the end, people have to do what makes them happy. The main thing to realize though is that almost all jobs require lots of hard work, and a good part of that work is often not fun. Almost all jobs require going through quite a bit of crap just to do the fun stuff.

    I was watching a video of a prison psychologist who was talking about a difference that he often sees between White violent criminals and Black violent criminals. He said that lots of the White violent criminals are less likely to get re-arrested because they usually have trades–they’re construction workers, mechanics, welders, or whatever. There’s something to go back to. If you’ve got nothing to go back to, you’re more likely to do more bad stuff.

    Personally speaking, this “honest conversation” is one that I probably would have preferred not to have. That’s why I put so much of an emphasis on role models. It’s easier to imagine yourself doing something if you see someone else doing it.

  255. In my day job experience I’ve encountered “managers” of all kinds who are incompetent and sycophants who can’t do the actual programming but make unrealistic deadlines and make excuses for themselves and scapegoating others (me, since Asians seen as easy targets). This also includes Asian “managers” who are douchebags.

    Bottom line is people are people and incompetency has no bounds. I just joked with my Asian co-worker about being named “Patsy” and how the blame game works. I get it, in the animal kingdom it’s all about minimizing expenditure and maximizing returns, but at some point this doesn’t apply to 21st century automation processes.

    I’m just rambling now. Cheers! ^_^

  256. Let’s make Asian Americans “involuntary” minorities, then perhaps the racial targeting will stop.

    LMAO!

  257. ^^^

    That hypothetical does carry some truth to it. The fact of being a voluntary minority (ie: immigrants) and thus being perceived as having money and not speaking English well are some of the main reasons Asians are targeted.

  258. @Kiwi,

    While Asians are something like 70% foreign because of the recent waves of immigration, I would argue that it’s mostly the racist media to blame for those stereotypes.

    In fact, right-wingnuts often cite “liberal Haolewood” as the cause of anti-Asian racism. I’d agree to some extent, but there’s nothing “liberal” about it because it’s squarely in the pockets of the militainment industrial complex to brainwash children.

  259. Holy shit. Those fuckers know how to take advantage of our cultural weakness–namely the Asian American feminist attacks that have left Asian men lonely and desperate. That is absolutely sick. I want more info on this. And yes, I’d like the SJWs to say something.

  260. I’m torn between admiring the intelligence of these murderous thugs and being angry at their SJW enablers. On the intelligence front, they would have to do some cultural research to find our cultural weakness. They found it.

  261. Be careful out there. There were a few craigslist murders as well. Meet in a populated public area that’s well lit for anything with anonymous internet people.

  262. Why do you guys sound like you’re talking to ghosts? Who are these SJW representatives that are supposed to answer your inquiries?

    And how do you know they vouched and enabled those murderers of Asian men?

    I hate SJW’s as much as you guys, but it just sounds weird to me that somehow by calling out and cry for help to those SJW as if that’s supposed to resolve issues and stop the killings of Asian men. Sounds like some ghosts with no heads of representative spokesperson.

    Are the SJW cronies the resolutions we’re looking for?

    I hate idiots, Reappropriate, CAAAV/OCA/JACL/AAJA/AALDEF/ , theLLAG , SJW Cronies, et al . Why did the SJW cronies vouch and enable those murderers of Asian men? That sounds like some sick chit.

    My theory on why there’s an upwave in killings of Asian men recently from young Black thugs, my guess is the movie “Gook” that was just released must have boiled their blood, so they went out with a vengence to kill more Asian men.

    Just last Sunday, 2 young Black or dark Hispanic thugs shot and killed a Viet dude after using the ATM at a BofA in Westminster.

    Suspects are still on the loose, people are feeling uneasy with eyes on the lookout.

    https://patch.com/california/fountainvalley/victim-withdrew-cash-looked-happy-being-gunned-down-atm-cops

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