“My body is separate from my politics,” interracial marriage, and where the environmentalists all drive Hummers

Once again, IR crept into the discussion. This time it’s the same discussion that has happened many, many times over the years. Asian American feminists and their non-Asian boyfriends are using the same argument that they’ve always used to dismiss the IR disparity: “This is my body! You have no right to question whom I date! To do so is sexist and patriarchal! How dare you! Ethan (or Biff or Whitey) is an individual, and that has nothing to do with my activism.” It’s the “my body is separate from my politics” argument. It’s an argument that has been made ad nauseum since the 1970’s. I don’t think I’ve ever had a post dedicated to the argument, so here it is.

First, I’m cool with anyone dating anyone, and everyone else should be cool with it too. An Asian woman can fall in love with a White guy because he’s a great individual, and I’m cool with it. An Asian woman can fall in love with a White guy because she loves the White race and thinks that the White race is superior to all other races, and I’m cool with that too. As individuals, we have to go for what makes us happy. None of us controls what turns us on or makes us feel fulfilled, and no one has a right to criticize another person’s choices, especially not when it comes to marriage. Whom you marry is a very personal choice, and in our individualistic society, you get to choose your own partner.

But given the current world where Asian men are often denigrated and assigned lower values in American (and Asian) society, if an Asian American woman marries a non-Asian (usually White) man and then claims to be an advocate for all Asian Americans, the question of public image and personal understanding become important. That’s not to say that Asian women who date or prefer White can’t be leaders, but the public has a right to ask questions. It’s no different from any other area of politics or activism. If you’re a person who is pushing an agenda or asking for the public’s trust, the public will question whether they trust you. To respond with “You don’t have the right to question my personal choices” is not an argument that most people will accept. This argument fails both logically and emotionally. Logically, it fails because normal people need a reason to trust you. Emotionally, it fails because so many people, both men and women, are hurting from the affects of the IR imbalance. They’re asking lots of questions about the cause of their pain.

A useful analogy is the environmentalist who owns a second home or drives a Hummer. Both second homes and Hummers are bad for the environment. Both are also very personal choices. If one of the leaders of Greenpeace drove a Hummer, owned multiple homes, and owned an oil refinery, people would naturally question his personal choices. He could respond with, “It’s my personal life, so stay out. You have no right to ask.” I think most people would agree that he has a right to a personal life, but does he have a good reason to get angry at the public for asking? After all, he was the one who asked for the public to trust him on his agenda or leadership. The conversation has to go both ways. Now imagine what the world would be like if almost all environmentalists drove Hummers while preaching the evil of greenhouse gases. Imagine a world where it was rare to find an environmentalist who drove anything other than a Hummer. That’s similar to the world of Asian American feminism, where finding an Asian American feminist married to an Asian man is like finding a unicorn with an egg allergy.

For me, the main question is one of understanding. Certainly there are Asian women married to White men who get it. Karen Ma, for example, is one of my favorite writers on The Issue. But more often than not, activists who don’t date Asian, including the vast majority of Asian American feminists, are incredibly ignorant on the topic of Asian men. Many harbor terrible prejudices against Asian men, prejudices and biases that come out in their writing and speeches. People have a right to ask why they hate Asian men so much. If they don’t have Asian men in their personal lives, people have a right to suggest that they try to be more inclusive. It’s not sexism; it’s common sense.

Nobody likes a witch hunt. Everyone wants people to have their own private lives. But if one’s outward personal life contradicts one’s political message, one should not be surprised if one faces a backlash, especially with an issue like the IR discrepancy, which has been the most significant issue in Asian American culture for years. Yes, it’s uncomfortable, but if you’re asking for the public’s trust, the public has a right to question whether they trust you.

My advice to Asian American feminists married to non-Asians is just to own it. Be proud of it. Say exactly what happened, and make no apology. You can still earn people’s trust. But at the same time, if you happen to be one of these Asian American feminists who is completely ignorant on the topic of Asian men, own that too. Fix the gaps in your knowledge, and then you can move forward.

211 thoughts on ““My body is separate from my politics,” interracial marriage, and where the environmentalists all drive Hummers

  1. So I wanted to answer Skeet’s question about “direct correlation” from here:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/03/akira-looking-for-white-guys-to-play-asian-guys/#comment-324006

    Honestly, I don’t think it matters. I can be SPECIFICALLY anti-pesticides because pesticides harm the environment, but if I drive a Hummer, my message can still fall flat because people question my commitment to fixing the environment. I’ve seen politicians lose their careers for hitting pedestrians with their car, something that might seem irrelevant to their jobs as lawmakers. If a preacher fools around with prostitutes and says, “I have sinned, and technically God forgives sinners,” people tune out, even though it’s technically true, according to the Bible. It’s the same deal here.

    In the case of Constance Wu, there’s overlapping correlation. If you say that Asian men are worthy and interesting and capable, but you only hang out with White men, then there’s some overlap. I’m not saying that this is what Constance does (I don’t know much about her), but for people who follow Constance and watch her show/read her tweets, THEY have the right to ask, don’t they?

    Anyway, I think I answered more of this question above.

  2. Again I already debunked your environmentalist driving a hummer theory, there’s a direct correlation there. There’s no direct correlation in Constance Wu’s message.

    As for politicians losing their careers for hitting pedestrians with their car, can you post a link? Which politician did this happen to?

    The preacher fools around with prostitutes is directly correlates to the moral values of what he preaches, therefore, there’s a direct link between the message and the messenger’s action.

    In the case of Constance Wu, there’s overlapping correlation. If you say that Asian men are worthy and interesting and capable, but you only hang out with White men, then there’s some overlap. I’m not saying that this is what Constance does (I don’t know much about her), but for people who follow Constance and watch her show/read her tweets, THEY have the right to ask, don’t they?

    Two issues here. 1) how did you know Constance did not date Asian men prior to this current relationship with a WM? She probably loved her ex Asian boyfriend, but they brokeup, you never know.

    2) “If you say that Asian men are worthy and interesting and capable, but you only hang out with White men,” she was talking about Hollywood protagonist leading roles for Asian men, what she said was not correlated to Asian men in dating.

    By the way, what do you think of this question.
    If an Asian female became President of the U.S. and she’s married to a white man. She enacted and overturned policies that favors Asian Americans, she enacted to rid and demolish college admission affirmative action, she enacted to get more Asian men & women into leading roles in Hollywood, she enacted to better dating prospects for Asian men. Would you guys become hypocrites and endorse to support her?

  3. Skeet,

    With all due respect, I don’t think you debunked anything about Constance Wu. In fact, I think you missed the main point. The main point is about trust. “Can we trust you?” is ALWAYS the first question that people ask of activists. It’s not about only moral trust, it’s about trust in knowledge and competency too. Do I trust that you know what you’re talking about? Do I trust that you can get things done?

    The politician who lost his career for hitting a pedestrian…you asked me for a link? Why? Do you not trust me, or do you not trust the idea that a politician’s career is built on trust? I don’t mind the first possibility since we’re just getting to know each other, but the second seems irrefutable. I’m just curious as to why you’re asking. If you need to know, his name is Bill Janklow, although I’m not sure why you’re asking.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Janklow

    The preacher fools around with prostitutes is directly correlates to the moral values of what he preaches, therefore, there’s a direct link between the message and the messenger’s action.

    Again, I think you’re missing the main point, this time over Christianity. The main point of Christianity is forgiveness and mercy; it’s what separates the Christian God from the Jewish God. Jesus died for your sins, and therefore the wages of sin are no longer death. So the main VALUE of Christianity is forgiveness. By fooling around with prostitutes and asking for forgiveness, that preacher would be living according to Christian values because we all have sinned.

    So then why is it that preachers who fool around often get kicked out of the pulpit?

    It’s for the exact same reason that I mentioned in the OP: Trust. It’s that simple. A preacher who falls that far is harder to trust, regardless of how well he follows the values.

    1. I don’t know anything about Constance Wu other than she is the star of a sit-com and is dating a White guy. I even said as much in the quote (“I’m not saying that this is what Constance does (I don’t know much about her))” that you yourself quoted.
    2. Again, it’s a matter of trust.

    If an Asian female became President of the U.S. and she’s married to a white man. She enacted and overturned policies that favors Asian Americans, she enacted to rid and demolish college admission affirmative action, she enacted to get more Asian men & women into leading roles in Hollywood, she enacted to better dating prospects for Asian men. Would you guys become hypocrites and endorse to support her?

    Please explain. From what you’re saying, I would probably endorse and support her (although I might change my mind if she were an environmentalist who owned a Hummer dealership). Why would that make us hypocrites?

  4. What is this obsession with ‘direct’ correlation? This weird concept has no basis in statistics, and is a blatant attempt to derail the discussion.

    (1) The environmentalist may need to drive hummers due to where he lives, you never know.
    (2) Also, the environmentalist may think that the real problem is not with climate change but with pollution.

  5. Skeete, I think that you are overthinking what has been said. I think Byron, has made it pretty clear above and I will do so now.

    I don’t have a problem with individuals falling in love. There is no way that I can walk down the street and identify which couples are engaged in “Racist Love” as opposed to genuine love that is built on respect rather than stereotypes. So I refrain from pointing to Constance Wu or anyone else and saying “This woman has no right to do THAT!”

    However, I am not naive enough to believe that it has NO bearing on how seriously she will be taken as an advocate. That’s all.

    – I happen to agree with what Constance said about The Great Wall of China film.
    – I also am not calling her out personally on her current choice of boyfriend

    All I’m saying is that it will incite reaction from an old wound that has been fodder for conflict and conversation within the AA community since the early 2000s and beyond—namely, “The I/R Disparity.”

  6. Let’s say that Black athletes had a habit of moving out of Black neighborhoods and into completely White neighborhoods, once they had earned enough money. And let’s further suppose that this had been noticed and became something of an issue within the Black community.

    Now on one hand, a person has a right to fall in love with whatever house he likes. And hey, it’s not his fault that it just happens to be in a White neighborhood rather than a Hispanic, Asian, Middle-Eastern, or Black neighborhood. There is certainly no way for me to know if any particular athlete has selected his home for any particular reason.

    HOWEVER, if a larger than usual minority seem to be choosing to dwell in White neighborhoods, I might surmise that this choice trend is affected by White supremacist ideas that have influenced the thinking of the Black athletes making those choices (perhaps even without their realizing it).

    Like I said, I can’t say which athletes are simply buying a house that they like, and which ones feel that “a White neighborhood is a right neighborhood,” based on what they have assimilated through TV, book, movies, and people’s attitudes. But it does follow that *a percentage of them* are probably influenced by these things to some degree, and are thus causing the Black athlete housing disparaity

  7. Skeet the intentional ignoramus wrote:

    there’s a direct correlation there. There’s no direct correlation in Constance Wu’s message.

    We need to go lawyerese on this: define “correlation” or you’re making it up with semantics.

    As for politicians losing their careers for hitting pedestrians with their car, can you post a link? Which politician did this happen to?

    It’s called GOOGLE. FYI, Ted Kennedy lost lots of credibility if you ever read up on that family’s history and how sad it is they took them down…

    Two issues here. 1) how did you know Constance did not date Asian men prior to this current relationship with a WM? She probably loved her ex Asian boyfriend, but they brokeup, you never know.

    Again, with your LIES and hypotheticals that has no bearing in reality!

    What if unicorns showered her with rainbows and love and she descended from Amazonian queens? You never know!

    Get real!

    2) “If you say that Asian men are worthy and interesting and capable, but you only hang out with White men,” she was talking about Hollywood protagonist leading roles for Asian men, what she said was not correlated to Asian men in dating.

    I agree partly that she didn’t say anything about AM in dating, but the fact she spoke “on behalf” of APIAs in the media and INDIRECTLY the larger society that has smaller chi squares than WM savior issues.

    But if you’re talking statistics and correlations, there are other types of cause-effects.

    While it’s not direct, indirect evidence points to other root causes.

    If an Asian female became President of the U.S. and she’s married to a white man. She enacted and overturned policies that favors Asian Americans, she enacted to rid and demolish college admission affirmative action, she enacted to get more Asian men & women into leading roles in Hollywood, she enacted to better dating prospects for Asian men. Would you guys become hypocrites and endorse to support her?

    Once again: can you read what you wrote in terms of “enacte and OVERTURNED policies” is in direct contradiction with the rest of your statements?

    Again with your lies and hypotheticals.

    What if unicorns gave rainbow ice cream shavings to everybody, would that make UFOs our thetan overlords?

    Get REAL!

  8. cjh the deflector wrote:

    (1) The environmentalist may need to drive hummers due to where he lives, you never know.
    (2) Also, the environmentalist may think that the real problem is not with climate change but with pollution.

    1. the environmentalist would never live somewhere where hummers would cause environmental problems. an activist would ACTIVELY seek ways to mitigate issues of concern

    2. that environmentalist is an idiot and should not be called “environmentalist” if they’re climate change deniers. and pollution does contribute to climate change by its very definition, just not “global warming” as the climate change.

    this is YOU derailing and deflecting the topic

  9. I think a better analogy would be the doctor who tells his patients to eat healthy and exercise. However, his lunch preference is always Big Macs, chicken nuggets, large fries and diet cokes.

    The message is good and everybody can agree with it, but the doctor will get second takes from everybody. That’s SJW feminism in a nutshell.

  10. Aardvark,

    I actually agree with CJH. There are lots of people who participate in some parts of the movement but not others. I consider myself an environmentalist, for example, but I don’t do much when it comes to banning plastic bags. I actually use them as liners for my trash cans. I know they’re bad for the environment, but I figure I’d have to buy them anyway if my supermarket banned them. I don’t see any way around them, at least not for me. Every plastic bag that I personally use gets recycled in this way.

    In any case, I’m not really a leader of the environmental movement. I’m more of a selective follower.

    As for doctors who eat bad food, I know a LOT of these. I do NOT consider them hypocrites because they all know that it’s killing them, but they do it anyway, sometimes because they’re too busy. I think a lot of professions are similar to this though. When I was doing mortgages, I myself did not get the lowest rate (my timing just wasn’t so good!). 🙂 I know financial advisers who don’t get the best returns for themselves personally.

    But it is a lot different if you’re looking to be a leader. Most of these doctors don’t see themselves as leaders or role models, more of just a service to help others. It’s quite different if you’re pushing a moral standpoint or a different worldview. In that case, you almost have to live your professed lifestyle.

  11. Let me clarify. I don’t think an environmentalist EVER has to drive a Hummer. Even if he lives in an area where he needs a 4wd, there are more efficient options.

    BUT…at the very least, people should be allowed to ask why he drives a Hummer. It shouldn’t be off limits.

  12. BigWowo’s link:

    House rules do not allow congressmen who are convicted of felonies to vote or participate in committee work until the House Ethics Committee conducts an nvestigation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Janklow

    High ranking political offices have many ethics rules, written rules that may have no correlation with the politicians’ political views.

    However, lower seated politicians and political activists have less issues with dating scandals. Some NAACP civil rights members had cheating scandals but that never affected their leaderships and activism skillsets.

    Bill Clinton’s scandal with ‎Monica Lewinsky was well controversial, but he still remained in office.

    Again note, there’s never been politicians getting the boot for their dating choices. Unless their dating choices are morally wrong, like dating prostitutes.

    The trust issue is still directly correlates with his character as a preacher, therefore he got the boot. As for Constance, I think you guys are getting way too far ahead by expecting too much of her and then you guys can’t wrap around to trust her. She never mentioned specifically speaking for AMs, she’s an activist who speaks out any instances of whitewashness. Instances such as Ghost in the Shells and Dortor Strange, neither of these instances were about AMs. She’s just sick of Hollywood’s whitewashness. Notice she didn’t even mention East AMs’ hero when she talked about Gandhi and the other two PoC Heroes. She’s just speaking about anti-whitewashness in general.

    Please explain. From what you’re saying, I would probably endorse and support her (although I might change my mind if she were an environmentalist who owned a Hummer dealership). Why would that make us hypocrites?

    So you’re saying you guys are not against all potitical AF activists who married whites and white males who married Asians (aka Nicholas Cage)? If you guys are anti every WMAF unions then yes it’s hypocritical.

    The Esther Ku’s of the world are the ones we should be vehemently against, not the Constance Wu’s.

    cjh

    You obviously don’t understand. Tha’s ok.

    King

    So I refrain from pointing to Constance Wu or anyone else and saying “This woman has no right to do THAT!”

    I happen to agree with what Constance said about The Great Wall of China film.
    – I also am not calling her out personally on her current choice of boyfriend

    Good, that’s all we’re asking.

    King

    “The I/R Disparity.”

    Intersectionality is the problem, so let’s keep 2 issues apart. We can’t expect to fix everything in one shot, let’s take it one step at a time.

    dementia sir_humps, I meant aardvark wrote:

    I think a better analogy would be the doctor who tells his patients to eat healthy and exercise. However, his lunch preference is always Big Macs, chicken nuggets, large fries and diet cokes.

    Again, there’s a direct correlation here. His message is about eating healthy and exercise, but he doesn’t practice it himself.

    Constance’s message is about AMs in Haolewood, not about AMs in dating, therefore does not correlate with her dating lifestyle/choices.

    define “correlation” or you’re making it up with semantics.

    How about you try Googling.

    It’s called GOOGLE. FYI, Ted Kennedy lost lots of credibility if you ever read up on that family’s history and how sad it is they took them down…

    Look up my answer to BigWowo.

    aardvark doctor spinner wrote:

    Again, with your LIES and hypotheticals that has no bearing in reality!

    What if unicorns showered her with rainbows and love and she descended from Amazonian queens? You never know!

    So you LIE and pretend like you know her past history?

    Likewise, you assume she never liked nor dated AMs is just your lies in character assinations.

    I agree partly that she didn’t say anything about AM in dating, but the fact she spoke “on behalf” of APIAs in the media and INDIRECTLY the larger society that has smaller chi squares than WM savior issues.

    She has the right to speak up for APIAs, just not the specific AM issues.

    Once again: can you read what you wrote in terms of “enacte and OVERTURNED policies” is in direct contradiction with the rest of your statements?

    I already explained this, go re-read it if you’re too inept to comprehend.

  13. Can those black men who married white women still be credible advocates for the black community?

  14. @ chinesemom

    Not as effectively no. It’s the same issue. It doesn’t make their truths less true, but it very often does get in the way of their activism.

  15. @bigWOWO,

    But it is a lot different if you’re looking to be a leader. Most of these doctors don’t see themselves as leaders or role models, more of just a service to help others. It’s quite different if you’re pushing a moral standpoint or a different worldview. In that case, you almost have to live your professed lifestyle.

    I think there’s also a fine distinction between people actively seeking out the egomania spotlight and “reluctant leader” who have to lead simply because of circumstance.

    With that said, the mantra “practice what you preach” certainly comes to mind when people make public statements to the world and actively promote such viewpoints.

    You’re in the financial industry, so having a stockbroker who advocates a certain mutual fund, but then only buys a specific finance product with their own money certainly brings up questions…

  16. It’s summer and constant triple digits and I’m cranky with other things this summer cuz it’s racism to the max in this country with China bashing and overflows to the day job…

    For example, another US propaganda article that doesn’t mention the FBI agent who made the arrest is a Chinese American dude:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/fbi-employee-accused-being-chinese-agent-plead-guilty-160213392.html

    And of course, right on cue Jenn Fang segways from a WM murder against AF in Seattle to Asian domestic abuse and blames the AM. How’s a murder case related to domestic abuse is beyond my limited imagination…

    Also, the latest Independence Day: Resurgence is undoubtedly James Lamb and Sengge Rinchen, Chr, Kyrie and Skeet Durian’s wetdreams. Everything we’ve talked about with Haolewood racism is on full display… >.<

  17. Skeet wrote:

    Bill Clinton’s scandal with ‎Monica Lewinsky was well controversial, but he still remained in office.
    Again note, there’s never been politicians getting the boot for their dating choices. Unless their dating choices are morally wrong, like dating prostitutes.

    Only controversial to right wing-nuts who wasted hundreds of millions of tax dollars on a domestic issue. And why you make a judgement that dating prostitutes is morally wrong? Who made you the arbiter of morality?

    Are you better than them based on what criteria?

    As for Constance, I think you guys are getting way too far ahead by expecting too much of her and then you guys can’t wrap around to trust her.

    This is YOUR opinion and STRAWMAN. Nobody here ever said “expecting too much of her” except that her words now (Great Wall) are OVER-REACHING as it pertains to AM issues when she always only been concerned with pro-AF issues.

    she’s an activist who speaks out any instances of whitewashness. Instances such as Ghost in the Shells and Dortor Strange, neither of these instances were about AMs.

    This is the only statement I can say you’re correct on. Even a bad clock tells the correct time twice a day, I suppose. Constance Wu only focused on AF racebending because it benefits her and AF in Haolewood. But Great Wall debacle is just too blatant to not speak out also.

    While it’s not about AM, when she OVER-REACHES away from AF issues to include APIA topics, then it’s going to get response from the AMs. Deal with it, it’s reality.

    Also, when you write “she didn’t even mention East AMs’ hero” that gives a good insight as to the shallow nature of the response of widely known NON-AMERICANS and bias against AMs when there are plenty of APIA heroes…

    If you guys are anti every WMAF unions then yes it’s hypocritical.

    This once again is your overlord James Lamb level of spin doctoring and STRAWMAN to create LIES against people when yourself disingenuously attempt to put words when nobody has ever said anything of the sort.

    Maybe you can grovel to Jenn Fang and get away with it, but bigWOWO requires logical statements that you liars cannot get away with.

    Intersectionality is the problem, so let’s keep 2 issues apart. We can’t expect to fix everything in one shot, let’s take it one step at a time.

    So the SJWs only have issues and talking points and everybody else get in the back of line… Interesting…

    Constance’s message is about AMs in Haolewood, not about AMs in dating, therefore does not correlate with her dating lifestyle/choices.

    Again with your spin doctoring and lies. Yourself admitted that Constance Wu has not said anything about AM directly, but now is changing the stance here? Keep your stories/lies straight!

    While her private life has nothing to do with Haolewood racism and calling out the racebending, as somebody who’s a proponent of “all APIAs” it certainly calls to suspicion the CONSISTENCY of her position and motivation.

    Also, if you’re only capable of “direct correlation” and only that type of conversation then I’ll be holding your comments to that standard in everything you write, else you’re just a James Lamb type hypocrite: such as your fantasies of fake fiction scenarios…

    How about you try Googling.

    How about you stop your LIES and FABRICATIONS against reality and semantics games.

    So you LIE and pretend like you know her past history?

    Prime example of YOUR LIES and PRETENSE reflected back unto you.

    She has the right to speak up for APIAs, just not the specific AM issues.

    Yet another example of your DISTORTION of facts. If she has the “right” to speak up for APIAs then that encompasses AMs and not just her usual pro-AF tweets. This would then question the validity of the PERSONAL IS THE POLITICAL REALITY that everybody except you and your overlords live in…

    I already explained this, go re-read it if you’re too inept to comprehend.

    No! Your statement is self-contradictory and a FABRICATION of LIES that has no basis in reality!

  18. In a nutshell, it’s brainwashing on an industrial scale by…the same group who did the same against Native Indian men and women; and Black men and women. Our leaders are co-opted.

    Asian women don’t hate who Asian men are.

    Asian women hate who white men SAY Asian men are.

    The racial myths that glorify white masculinity and denigrate Asian masculinity can dissuade Asian American women, and women of all racial groups, from regarding Asian American men as desirable romantic partners, and encourage them to turn their gaze toward white men.

    An Intersectional Approach to Resistance and Complicity – The Case of Racialised Desire among Asian American Women http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/07256860903477704

    Respondents commonly juxtaposed images of despotic, unloving Asian men against those of white men as romantic liberators in constructing two different forms of racialized masculinity. Respondents, including many who do not prefer to date white men, regularly invoke stereotypes in constructing Asian American men as the inferior inverse of white men. They describe Asian American men as ‘‘dominant’’, ‘‘mean’’, ‘‘dictators’’, ‘‘not liking a girl who has too many opinions’’, ‘‘treating women like property’’ and ‘‘wife beaters’’. They depict white men, on the other hand, as attractive, romantic, loving, sensitive, communicative and gender egalitarian traits they claim are lacking in Asian American men.

    An Intersectional Approach to Resistance and Complicity – The Case of Racialised Desire among Asian American Women http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/07256860903477704

    White hegemonic ideologies of masculinity and femininity determine who gets to have sex with whom …We do not make choices of attraction in a vacuum…Hegemonic ideology becomes our commonsense notions. Women were painted as perpetually sexually available to white men while Asian American men were constructed as castrated or impotent…

    Asian American Sexual Politics: The Construction of Race, Gender, and Sexuality: Rosalind S. Chou http://www.amazon.com/Asian-American-Sexual-Politics-Construction/dp/1442209240

    An Asian American woman told me, “I would especially treat the Asian American boys badly when I was in school because I wanted nothing to do with them, I didn’t want to be associated with them. I was ashamed of [Asianness].” She wanted to avoid things that made her look bad, and to her it was Asian American boys. I think that that happens a lot. And it’s not a coincidence that that is precisely what historically and in the present a lot of what white men prefer.

    Asian American Sexual Politics: The Construction of Race, Gender, and Sexuality: Rosalind S. Chou http://www.amazon.com/Asian-American-Sexual-Politics-Construction/dp/1442209240

    And, it seems to really work quite well as all the bad traits are applied to all our brothers while all that is good is applied to white men.

    In fact, respondents do not generalise the male dominance of their fathers to all males, but only to Asian males.

    Meanwhile, in the case of white men, the positive traits of egalitarianism and chivalry associated with one white boyfriend are generalised to the entire group. This illustrates the power of white racial domination in winning the consent of the oppressed through the perpetuation and inculcation of racist images. It is not a matter of ‘seeing is believing’, but rather, the racialised assumptions the dominant society teaches the oppressed shape how and what they see (Pyke and Johnson).

    An Intersectional Approach to Resistance and Complicity – The Case of Racialised Desire among Asian American Women http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/07256860903477704

    It seems self hate caused by a system of white male racism hurt many of our sisters since childhood and coincided with white worship.

    Most of my respondents struggled through their childhood and teenage years with an strong sense of racial ethnic cultural difference, including being “embarrassed” or “self conscious” about their culture, which produced powerful desires to “whiten.” Development of powerful assimilative yearning, which seemed to be a common denominator among men and women of this study who eventually chose to marry interracially. Indeed, although every one of my respondents reported being a target of racist slurs and bullying when growing up—some endured these as a family unit—those who weathered these challenges most effectively were those who practiced as much distancing from the Asian “stereotypes” as possible. Relating that none of the second generation Chinese kids she knew of “wanted to be Chinese,” Such desires for “white identification” to avoid racism seemed to have been typically accompanied by attraction to Caucasian boys from a young age.

    Children and the Shifting Engagement with Racial Ethnic Identity among Second Generation Interracially Married Asian Americans https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/bitstream/handle/1808/14641/Chong_2013.pdf

    individual inculcation of the racist stereotypes, values, images, and ideologies perpetuated by the White dominant society about one’s racial group, leading to feelings of self doubt, disgust, and disrespect for one’s race and or oneself.

    What is Internalized Racial Oppression and Why Don’t We Study it – Acknowledging Racism’s Hidden Injuries http://irows.ucr.edu/cd/courses/232/pyke/intracopp.pdf

    An analysis of interviews with 128 second-generation Korean and Vietnamese American women finds those who express a desire for white men invoke racialisedracialized gender stereotypes of masculinity that idealiseidealize white Western men as romantic ‘egalitarian knights’ and denigrate Asian American men as inferior, domineering partners. Those respondents who prefer white men see it as a strategy for resisting Asian American men’s gender oppression; however, they overlook white men’s gender oppression and some Asian American men’s commitment to gender egalitarianism. The analysis finds respondents commonly draw on four widely circulating ideologies promoting white men’s racial and gender domination in explaining their romantic preferences These assumptions reveal two additional ways that some respondents have internalisedinternalized a discourse of white domination: (1) They reiterate Orientalist assumptions of the West that dichotomisedichotomize the East as monolithically backward, gender traditional and impervious to change, and the West as modern and gender progressive (2) By presenting ethnic pride and a strong ethnic identity as inherently detrimental, respondents fashion an implicitly pro assimilation narrative.

    An Intersectional Approach to Resistance and Complicity – The Case of Racialised Desire among Asian American Women http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/07256860903477704

    The danger is that some of us are so blinded by mass media that we won’t realize the danger until it’s too late.

    racialized images can cause Asian American women to believe they will find greater gender equality with white men and can cause white men to believe they will find greater subservience with Asian women. This dynamic promotes Asian American women’s availability to white men and makes them particularly vulnerable to mistreatment.

    Asian American Women And Racialized Femininities ‘Doing’ Gender across Cultural Worlds http://www.irows.ucr.edu/cd/courses/232/pyke/femininities.pdf

    Asian Americans, especially girls and women, are disturbingly overrepresented with rates of depression and suicide. As recently as spring of 2011, The National Alliance on Mental lllness released a report that Asian American girls have the highest rates of depressive symptoms of any racial/ethnic or gender group.

    Asian American Sexual Politics: The Construction of Race, Gender, and Sexuality: Rosalind S. Chou http://www.amazon.com/Asian-American-Sexual-Politics-Construction/dp/1442209240

  19. Skeet:

    With or without house rules, Janklow was done. He had had several public issues with driving in the past; it wasn’t his first. He was known for being a fast driver who would get caught, and to make it worse, he would brag about it. His traffic history and unwillingness to stop speeding probably helped with the manslaughter conviction. But as I said, he was done. He had lost the faith of the people, with or without house rules. People will get annoyed if a powerful person unapologetically breaks the rules. If he breaks the rules and ends up killing someone…that’s usually enough to end a career.

    I think you have to understand what King and I and everyone else mean by “trust.” Clinton getting caught fooling around with Lewinsky had ZERO effect on people’s faith in his ability to govern. Interview after interview had people saying that he was doing a good job as president. We all knew Clinton was incorrigible before we elected him. It’s the same deal with a lot of civil rights leaders. As long as people still trust you, you’ll have your job.

    So you’re saying you guys are not against all potitical AF activists who married whites and white males who married Asians (aka Nicholas Cage)? If you guys are anti every WMAF unions then yes it’s hypocritical.

    The Esther Ku’s of the world are the ones we should be vehemently against, not the Constance Wu’s.

    I’m not sure what has been said about me or the people here. I’ve never been against political AF’s who married White people, which is why I expressed my admiration for Karen Ma in the OP above. I’m only against bad ideas, which seem to be common among Asian American feminists and the Asian American far left in general. Whatever has been said about me (I seem to remember a Bill O’Reilly reference on Reappropriate, even though, to this day, I’ve never even seen his show.) Please forget whatever you’ve read about us from other sources because clearly, from your comments, what you read is not true.

    Maybe check out some of my older IR posts and comments.

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/06/asian-femal-celebrity-unio/
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/05/asian-women-and-the-invisible-chain/
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/05/the-asian-rake-and-jamie-yeo-in-singapore/

    Oh, and while we’re on it, check out two of the most popular podcasts on this blog, the first with me and urb4n, the second with me and King:
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/05/podcast-urb4n-talks-about-ir/
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2013/09/inside-the-mind-of-a-rice-chaser-robin-hood-in-reverse-activism-podcast/

    I’m not against Constance Wu. I’m not against Esther Ku either. I’m just making the point again (and I apologize for repeating myself so many times) that leadership is all about trust, and one’s choice of spouse can affect whether people trust you, especially if you’re attempting to lead a group of people who have been damaged by racial trends in dating. When people demand trust from their leaders, it’s not a sickness. It’s not sexist. It’s just human.

  20. Aardvark:

    You’re in the financial industry, so having a stockbroker who advocates a certain mutual fund, but then only buys a specific finance product with their own money certainly brings up questions…

    That I’d agree with. If my stockbroker won’t buy ABC Corp, then it’s not right of him to push it on me.

    But most of these services providers that we’re discussing miss out because of time. A stockbroker might start calling his clients when a stock is undervalued, and then by the time he gets to doing his own portfolio, the stock has already gone up. It’s the same with some doctors. They spend so much time with their patients and run out of time, so they head to the Golden Arches just to save time.

    It’s a bit different when we’re talking about Asian American activists who don’t date Asian. In most cases, they’re not providing a service. It’s not as if they’re spending all their time introducing their friends to Asian men and then, doh, ran out of Asian men!

  21. King,

    You raise an interesting example with the black athletes buying housing.

    What would make the example more similar is if these athletes bought houses in White neighborhoods, refused to volunteer their time in black neighborhoods, and then suddenly stepped up and claimed to understand how black people live. I think you and I are not saying that they don’t have knowledge, but that anyone should have the right to ask where their knowledge comes from, especially if the words out of their mouths were offensive or ignorant.

  22. @bigWOWO,

    I’m just making the point again (and I apologize for repeating myself so many times) that leadership is all about trust, and one’s choice of spouse can affect whether people trust you, especially if you’re attempting to lead a group of people who have been damaged by racial trends in dating. When people demand trust from their leaders, it’s not a sickness. It’s not sexist. It’s just human.

    I wish I can put down this blog, but it’s like sriracha and I’m an addict. lol

    Judy Chu, Grace Meng, Tammy Duckworth are leaders and actively seeks leadership roles. I can say I’m 100% support these great AF leaders because they fight for and champion issues that not only give voice to APIA concerns, but also issues that all Americans.

    Tammy Duckworth has done so many things for APIAs that Jenn Fang can never hope to achieve.

    Constance Wu (why are we fixated on her lately?) might fall under the “reluctant leader” category despite her seeking out the limelight. While other AF “leaders” of APIA media organizations haven’t even said anything public or noticeable about the recent spate of Haolewood racebending, Constance Wu by default falls into the category whether she wants it or not because of her status as the most prominent and vocal AF actress right now.

    I think she’s doing a great job bringing awareness and calling it out for what it is, but the fact remains she’s been consistently about pro-AF rather than pro-APIA and that’s something tough to sort out, especially given the “social media influence leadership” nature of what she’s engaging makes her personal life relevant to the discussion.

    G’nite and fight more against Snoopy Jenkins in the morning! lol

  23. Demented nutjob sir_humps wrote:

    why you make a judgement that dating prostitutes is morally wrong? Who made you the arbiter of morality?

    Why do you care about my opinion of them, it’s fine, my point was (of course crazy MMer missed it) to the politicians it could be a scandalous talking point for the oppositions.

    This is YOUR opinion and STRAWMAN. Nobody here ever said “expecting too much of her” except that her words now (Great Wall) are OVER-REACHING as it pertains to AM issues when she always only been concerned with pro-AF issues.

    Your inept logic is confusing you, she has free speech rights to speak about whitewashness in general, this one instance happens to be about AMs, get over it.

    Demented nutjob sir_humps wrote:
    While it’s not about AM, when she OVER-REACHES away from AF issues to include APIA topics, then it’s going to get response from the AMs. Deal with it, it’s reality.

    You can, but it doesn’t make you right. Her talking about AMs in Haolewood isn’t a crime against AMs, get over it and don’t get your panties into a knot.

    This once again is your overlord James Lamb level of spin doctoring and STRAWMAN to create LIES against people when yourself disingenuously attempt to put words when nobody has ever said anything of the sort.

    Notice the word “If” LYING numbnut, it means “IF” they’re not anti every WMAF unions then they’re NOT hypocritical.

    So the SJWs only have issues and talking points and everybody else get in the back of line… Interesting…

    LIEs again, I never said you guys shouldn’t talk about issues, I said to address the Haolewood issue it’s better to keep the IR issue on the back burner to keep things light and not intertwine things. Why would you want Constance to talk about IR disparity for, that’s why I said to just keep it to about Haolewood.

    Demented nutjob sir_humps wrote:
    Yourself admitted that Constance Wu has not said anything about AM directly, but now is changing the stance here? Keep your stories/lies straight!

    Again with your LIES and idiotic spinning. I never said Constance did not speak about AMs in Haolewood.

    She was talking about “Whitewashness” in general, but in this instance it happened to be about AMs because it’s a movie in China (the Great wall). That’s why I made this statement “she was talking about Hollywood protagonist leading roles for Asian men”.

    THAT’s IT. She’s not a speaker for AM issues, not about dating nor any other issues, so that’s why I said “DON’T EXPECT TOO MUCH FROM HER”. Capisce? Man you’re slow.

    Demented nutjob sir_humps wrote:
    While her private life has nothing to do with Haolewood racism and calling out the racebending, as somebody who’s a proponent of “all APIAs” it certainly calls to suspicion the CONSISTENCY of her position and motivation.

    Bullshit, why would it be suspicious and inconsistent? What did she do to shame herself from her APIA community? Oh you’re right, the “suspicious and inconsistent” part is about YOU.

    Demented nutjob sir_humps wrote:
    Yet another example of your DISTORTION of facts. If she has the “right” to speak up for APIAs then that encompasses AMs and not just her usual pro-AF tweets. This would then question the validity of the PERSONAL IS THE POLITICAL REALITY that everybody except you and your overlords live in…

    Look in the mirror, your LIES, STRAWMAN, OBTUSE minded, MISOGYNIST/SEXIST bully, MILITANT EXTREMIST.

    So what? Are you going to attack every feminist who talks about AMs, even in a positive light?
    That’s severe delusional syndrome behavior.

    You need to GROW UP KID.

  24. BigWowo wrote:

    With or without house rules, Janklow was done. He had had several public issues with driving in the past; it wasn’t his first. He was known for being a fast driver who would get caught, and to make it worse, he would brag about it. His traffic history and unwillingness to stop speeding probably helped with the manslaughter conviction. But as I said, he was done. He had lost the faith of the people, with or without house rules. People will get annoyed if a powerful person unapologetically breaks the rules. If he breaks the rules and ends up killing someone…that’s usually enough to end a career.

    The Janklow’s conviction does prove there was no correlation between his political views and his actions. However, let’s keep in mind, we’re talking about dating choices, it’s not as serious as law-breaking convictions.

    I think you have to understand what King and I and everyone else mean by “trust.” Clinton getting caught fooling around with Lewinsky had ZERO effect on people’s faith in his ability to govern. Interview after interview had people saying that he was doing a good job as president. We all knew Clinton was incorrigible before we elected him. It’s the same deal with a lot of civil rights leaders. As long as people still trust you, you’ll have your job.

    This should apply to AF activists like Constance as well, dating white men shouldn’t lose their credibility nor lose people’s faith or trust. Unless an activist broke some kind of law.

    I’ve never been against political AF’s who married White people, which is why I expressed my admiration for Karen Ma in the OP above. I’m only against bad ideas, which seem to be common among Asian American feminists and the Asian American far left in general.

    If that’s the case, why are you guys rejecting and condemning Constance, what exactly are the bad ideas that she committed?

    I’m not sure what has been said about me or the people here.
    Whatever has been said about me (I seem to remember a Bill O’Reilly reference on Reappropriate, even though, to this day, I’ve never even seen his show.) Please forget whatever you’ve read about us from other sources because clearly, from your comments, what you read is not true.

    Bro, I have a lot of respect for you, sorry if something I said made you misunderstood.

    I’m not against Constance Wu.

    So what’s all these talking points regarding Constance about? Thanks for changing your mind, if you did.

    What about Nicholas Cage?

    I’m just making the point again (and I apologize for repeating myself so many times) that leadership is all about trust, and one’s choice of spouse can affect whether people trust you, especially if you’re attempting to lead a group of people who have been damaged by racial trends in dating. When people demand trust from their leaders, it’s not a sickness. It’s not sexist. It’s just human.

    I understand, I’m an AM too. To establish TRUST, the activist’s dating choices shouldn’t be the focal point, their message IS. She could be an AF who dates and AM, but IF her messages are hateful toward AMs like Esther Ku, then that’s where it’s hard to trust someone like that as a leader.

    The issue of racial trends in dating is damaged, and this is a huge issue required to be addressed for any APIA activist leader. Then I can see your point on why it’s paramount. Otherwise, if the issues are about Haolewood, affirmative action, employment, bamboo ceiling, immigration, etc. then WMAF activists shouldn’t be rejected just because of their personal dating preferences.

  25. @aadvark, who has too much time,
    You don’t get my point.

    @Skeet,
    This concept of direct correlation just doesn’t matter. Analogies are rhetorical devices, and are not mathematical models of human behavior. So the mechanics of the analogical relationship doesn’t have to be exactly the same. Maybe you should come up with you own analogy if you find it to be so effective.

  26. First, I’m cool with anyone dating anyone, and everyone else should be cool with it too. … But given the current world where Asian men are often denigrated and assigned lower values in American (and Asian) society, if an Asian American woman marries a non-Asian (usually White) man and then claims to be an advocate for all Asian Americans, the question of public image and personal understanding become important. That’s not to say that Asian women who date or prefer White can’t be leaders, but the public has a right to ask questions. — BigWOWO

    Can those black men who married white women still be credible advocates for the black community? — ChineseMom

    @ chinesemom

    Not as effectively no. It’s the same issue. It doesn’t make their truths less true, but it very often does get in the way of their activism.King

    Sexism remains the problem with these arguments. This conflict isn’t about environmentalists or preachers or salesmen. It’s about sexism. Repeatedly, some people here suggest that they take no issue with interracial dating, but they clearly oppose said dating when women in their community — some of the same people who assert that patriarchy and misogyny within communities of color harms women of color — speak about their experiences in public.

    This is not an interracial relationship debate. This is a sexism debate. Some undervalued, irate men of color who experience racism every day of their lives have difficulty with the notion that they benefit from societal and cultural advantages both within and outside their communities based on their gender, and recoil at having that truth pointed out. So they attack the speakers, and claim that the speaker’s personal lives negate their messages.

    It’s complete horseshit, but this happens by and large because these guys reject the sexism critique from women of color, not because the personal lives of women of color speak to moral deficiencies that compromise their feminist messages.

    Constance Wu publicly suggests that Matt Damon has no place in a film on ancient China. We have no idea how this will affect her career long term, but she spoke out against this Hollywood desire to force-feed audiences White male protagonists in stories about people of color. I’ve asked repeatedly in this space, and no one’s plausibly described the mechanism by which Constance Wu’s personal relationship to her significant other has tainted her message on Hollywood whitewashing.

    Logically, if there’s nothing wrong with her message, and their’s nothing wrong with interracial relationships in general, then Constance Wu’s fine. So what we are really talking about is the inappropriate and illogical rejection of political positions from women like Constance Wu by certain Asian American men, over their own sexual angst. Women like Constance Wu remind certain Asian American men that some Asian American women date and marry outside the race, and these Asian American men reject these interracial relationships because, let’s face it, they don’t confirm Asian male patriarchy.

    Black people who reject certain Black leaders because of those leaders personal dating choices are completely ridiculous. But let’s be clear: in 1954 most Black people lived and worked and suffered and died in segregated communities, where they only interacted with racial difference in workplaces where to be Black was to exude subservience. The social mixing we find so commonplace today in urban America did not exist for the vast majority of Black people during the Civil Rights Movement heyday.

    This means that it was quite possible to be Black, even a Black leader, and never find the opportunity to engage romance with someone outside your race, generally speaking. I suspect much the same dynamic affected Asian American dating choices in 1954. The argument promoted on this site by many suggests that even though interracial social interactions have increased exponentially since the segregated 1950’s, internal minority expectations about social and political leaders from these communities should remain untouched by the passage of time. If this makes sense, the relevant question abounds. Who benefits?

    The actor Jesse Williams excited many Black Americans with his stirring support for Black Lives Matter and his open dismissal of cultural appropriation at a recent awards show. His mixed race heritage is not an issue. Who he chooses to date is not an issue. What he said gained prominence. Marilyn Mosby’s antagonism toward the Baltimore Police Department in the wake of the Freddie Gray case earned her support from many, many liberal Blacks; no one’s combing through her private life to learn how many non-Black men or women she’s dated. What she says gains prominence.

    Asian Americans who dismiss the perspectives of women within their communities because of who those women choose to date and marry are sexist. This is sexist thinking, designed to preserve Asian male patriarchy, pure and simple. No one rejects Arthur Chu’s perspectives because of who he married. People are free to disagree with his ideas, but no one says that Chu’s writing represents “fruit from the poisoned tree”, and then fails to explain how the poison operates.

    BigWOWO, you’ve penned a regressive, sexist argument. As I’ve said before to you and King, Constance Wu’s take on Matt Damon’s new role places her squarely in line with other Asian Americans on this issue. According to your thinking, her perspective should be different, because you connect her politics to her sexual choices (a sexist argument to be sure, but that’s you). Clearly, Wu’s White significant other has no impact on her race activism here.

    The political message Wu espoused argues that people of color should be centralized in their own stories. None of that has anything to do with anyone’s private lives, and only sexism and misogyny tells some of you otherwise. This isn’t about public trust, it’s about patriarchy, specifically the angst some Asian American men feel in a world where they cannot expect the same social and cultural fealty from women in their community that their fathers and grandfathers enjoyed. At some point, folk should realize, your angst is your problem. Constance Wu and women like her will not muzzle themselves so that Asian American men can feel special.

    If the Black community offers any parallels, that’s the one to heed. With all the public deaths of Black men in police custody, Black women and Black LGBT people started Black Lives Matter. The women didn’t wait for the men to approve their activism; they acted. Women don’t need to wait for your approval to be political, BigWOWO. Remember, this isn’t 1954.

  27. “Also, the latest Independence Day: Resurgence is undoubtedly James Lamb and Sengge Rinchen, Chr, Kyrie and Skeet Durian’s wetdreams. Everything we’ve talked about with Haolewood racism is on full display… >.<"

    What does Independence Day movie have to do with meee….

    "It’s summer and constant triple digits and I’m cranky with other things this summer cuz it’s racism to the max in this country with China bashing and overflows to the day job…"

    If you're bothered by the heat, then maybe you should play more sports in the sun. You can acclimatize your body to hardship… and then maybe your mind will follow.

    LOL

  28. Some guy up there said it is “morally wrong” to DATE a prostitute.

    I genuinely want to know, so can you explain how it is “morally wrong” to DATE a prostitute?

  29. If someone says that i will advocate for the men only and not the woman, then that person is a partisan, and cannot represent humankind. Can men exist without women? Are their destinies separate?

    It’s a tragedy that many “liberal” extremists don’t believe the same common sense logic applies as long as they claim they do it for women.

    For them, the male viewpoint and perspective must be made subservient to doctrine, even as they cry about people “invalidating” their “lived realities” by pointing out their delusions such as their “rape” being actually NOT rape and their “sexual assault” being the actual factual legal and moral COMPLETE OPPOSITE of sexual assault. They are hypocrites and I think that if we’re at the stage where we are begging for crumbs, having ANYBODY to represent us apart from a writer that screams Crazy Woman from the words on her blog is already an improvement.

    We have to face reality though. If the only advocates are partisan and they are backed by powerful forces, if nobody speaks for you and nobody gives a shit, then to fight for what you deserve makes you a bona fide partisan.

    Therefore some of us can embrace this truth unlike the shills claiming to represent a bigger picture while regaling us with shocking brainfarts.

    We will quell them. We will defeat them. How long will people endure longer their lies without their structures of brainwashing? Their writing is like that of a dealer addicted to their owb crack.

  30. Some of you don’t see the discriminatory Racist Love preferences of a number of Asian Women and White Men. Even King recognizes it. I will call out the blatant racist bigoted reasons of their fetish attraction.

    Racist Hollywood whose producers and writers only promote white men romancing Asian women onscreen back in Asia and in the US. This has been going on film and TV for the past 10 to 50 years. They like to portray the white man as handsome, suave and debonair to romance the quiet, sweet attractive Asian female. This has been going on because of the US military involvement in Japan, Korea and Vietnam. Hundreds and thousands of American serviceman take their Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese and of course Filipina brides and it multiplies like wildfire.
    The US has bases and has been involved in wars with Iraq and Afghanistan, but do you see many white men romancing Iraqi or Afghan women? Hell no Racist double standard.
    Racist fetish white men have the porn industry to thank for promoting white men f*cking Asian women on video. The Asian porn stars just love the money from the white producers. White fetisher men just love the porn that caters to them and internally think every Asian women they encounter in public desires them. With few exception the porn industry promotes this and will keep producing this type of porn.
    This leads to the white fetisher man who will only date and sex Asian women. They inherently believe many Asian women as submissive and hyper-sexual only to white men. They will disparage their own white women as bossy, feminine and independent; And exclude black, latin , Indian and Arab women. This is damn Racist 
    This prevalence of AF/WM couple in public seeps into the brain of other single Asian women on the fence of whom to date. There are a lot of Asian women who sees this and inherently think a white man is the better mate than a Asian man. So they only date, f*ck and marry white men while disparage Asian men in the process. Damn hell racist.
    The tide is turning as in 2016 as I see in my area (DC/MD/VA) there are many AF/WM couples as compared to AF/AM couples. These women don’t care about their culture, language and heritage and only prefers another man outside her race for the long term and they want white looking babies. A number of the half-breed Asians turn out like that CA college mass killer or the convicted rapist ex-Oklahoma City policeman. Really Hardcore Racist.
    Last note. I don’t hold back on an Asian man who does this and only has the same feeling as a racist bigoted Asian women white fetisher. A lot of you regulars talk in abstract and offer no solutions. There is no big Asian community in America because a lot of Asian women and some men want to assimilate and marry into white families and forget about their heritage. Sad and sickening at the same time.

  31. @snoopy the whole issue is moot, because whether or not constance wu advocates openly or not isnt going to change or make a damn difference in hollywood. The studios are seeing how far they can push and get away with white washing primarily for profit in catering to white audiences that outwardly show that they disagree with it on principle but readily accept it with glee or indifference. The controversy also has the affect of creating free PR for the said movie in the news so that is factored in to the decision making process.

  32. Aardvark,

    It depends on what they’re leading. To be president or to run for Congress, people need to trust you on national issues. Who cares who they date or marry? I certainly don’t. It has nothing to do with the typical causes of national leadership (trade, international relations, the economy, etc.). Unless we’re facing a race-specific crisis, any specific talk on Asian American issues from national leaders is, as it should be, a bonus, not a requirement.

  33. Skeet,

    Thank you for being open and willing to debate. It seems (I think) we agree that at least some personal decisions, such as being a Hummer-driving environmentalist (which you called “direct correlation”), should influence one’s decisions. At least you’re not taking the Outrageous Snoopy approach.

    So let’s get Constance Wu out of the way. People on this blog rarely agree on everything–you can see in the last 24 hours that Aardvark and I disagreed on something. But to my knowledge, NO ONE here has said anything bad about Constance Wu. No one has condemned her, criticized her, or anything like that. I haven’t been “changing my mind” on her because there was never anything to change–I never had an opinion on her to begin with. To paraphrase from that 90’s saying, I haven’t been talking about the player, I’ve been talking about the game.

    I also don’t have anything to say about Nicholas Cage. I don’t know enough about him to comment. If he’s saying there should be more AM representation in film, then I agree with him. I certainly don’t have any reason to condemn or criticize him.

    This should apply to AF activists like Constance as well, dating white men shouldn’t lose their credibility nor lose people’s faith or trust. Unless an activist broke some kind of law.

    Well, I’ll say the same thing that I said to Jenn–I don’t make the rules. They will lose people’s trust, but that’s a human thing, not a legal thing. People want their leaders to look like the world they desire.

    Let’s go back to an example that Aardvark brought up upthread. He said something about doctors who eat McD’s. I absolutely disagreed with him above because doctors are service providers, not leaders. BUT…in the world of health, such leaders exist.

    Tony Horton created and runs the P90x empire. He’s in phenomenal shape. I think (and I hope I’m not getting him mixed up with someone else) he said that he occasionally eats a Big Mac, and that it was his one and only health-vice. I don’t want to create rumors, so let’s just accept this as a hypothetical–let’s say he occasionally downed a Big Mac and shake. Does it matter? No. Because in the grand scheme of things, rational people realize that it’s possible to eat a Big Mac once in a while and still be in phenomenal shape.

    But what if it was a habit? What if he ate a Big Mac and shake every day, had low energy, and started to get fat. What if he were to go on air and say, “Hey guys, here’s what a burpee looks like. Do 50 of them. I can’t do it because I’m fat and out of shape, but don’t look at me; just listen to the MESSAGE.”

    It wouldn’t fly.

    And that’s the same thing with Asian American activism. If you talk Asian but only date White, there’s a gap between words and actions. Perhaps even more importantly, there’s a gap between words and knowledge. How can an Asian American activist talk about Asian Americans if she doesn’t associate with other Asian Americans? How would Tony Horton be able to talk about the healthy lifestyle if he didn’t live it himself?

  34. Snoopy,

    Sexism remains the problem with these arguments.

    You’re getting your victimology mixed up. Re-read what you quoted above. If people listen less to black men who marry white women, are you saying black men are victims of sexism? That’s against liberal dogma, but in this case, that’s also against common sense. When it comes to interracial dating/marriage, black men have a HUGE social advantage over black women. If you can’t see your privilege, Snoopy, then I think you’re the one whose eyes are clouded by sexism–against black women.

    This is not an interracial relationship debate. This is a sexism debate.

    Well, this is half-correct. What happened was this…John Cho raised questions about gender, and you and Jenn accused him of sexism. It was never a “debate” because you accused him of sexism and patriarchy without even considering why he said what he did. Now you’re correct that this isn’t an interracial dating debate. The main issue we’re discussing, as I said to Skeet above, is leadership and trust. Interracial marriage is only the example that we’re using since it’s the biggest issue in Asian American culture.

    So yeah, back on topic–if you’re trying to lead a movement or contribute to a movement, your personal choices are up for debate. Can we at least agree on this? It’s not to say that one’s personal choices will disqualify one from certain leadership roles, but they should be up for debate, especially if they are related to one’s activism.

    Can we agree on this?

  35. Skeet the lying obfuscator wrote:

    Why do you care about my opinion of them, it’s fine, my point was (of course crazy MMer missed it) to the politicians it could be a scandalous talking point for the oppositions.

    WHO MADE YOU THE ARBITER OF MORALITY? You wrote “Unless their dating choices are morally wrong, like dating prostitutes.” How are you better than them? Maybe the prostitutes dating choice are morally wrong like dating politicians and self-righteous liars like Skeet Durian.

    Also, who are you referring to as “demented nutjob sir_humps” here? You can even get the commenter correct with all your LIES and HYPOCRISY!

    Your inept logic is confusing you, she has free speech rights to speak about whitewashness in general, this one instance happens to be about AMs, get over it.

    Your inept comprehension of language in any form is your downfall. You can’t even categorize topics correctly no wonder your overlord Jenn Fang goes on racist rants against WM murders and then wag the dog on Asian domestic violence to CONFLATE the issues.

    Notice the word “If” LYING numbnut, it means “IF” they’re not anti every WMAF unions then they’re NOT hypocritical.

    Just like your overlord James Lamb: you’re a Sith because only Sith deal in absolutes. That explains your racist LIES which you perpetuate against AMs.

    LIEs again, I never said you guys shouldn’t talk about issues, I said to address the Haolewood issue it’s better to keep the IR issue on the back burner to keep things light and not intertwine things. Why would you want Constance to talk about IR disparity for, that’s why I said to just keep it to about Haolewood.

    STRAWMAN ARUGMENTS again! You’re putting words where there have been none. Nobody here EVER said Constance Wu shouldn’t talk about whatever hashtags she’s into. But you’re the one who’s making up LIES and STRAWMANS and attributing to people here. It might work on your mental overlords on Reappropriate, but here there’s decency and logic at work instead of James Lamb’s brand of crazy.

    You’re advocating a raical hierarchy by your very statement of who should be first in line. Typical of racists like you in the 1950s.

    She was talking about “Whitewashness” in general, but in this instance it happened to be about AMs because it’s a movie in China (the Great wall). That’s why I made this statement “she was talking about Hollywood protagonist leading roles for Asian men”.

    THAT’s IT. She’s not a speaker for AM issues, not about dating nor any other issues, so that’s why I said “DON’T EXPECT TOO MUCH FROM HER”. Capisce? Man you’re slow.

    You’re a racist spin doctor. WHERE has Constance Wu even wrote/said she’s speaking for AMs at all? Her insipid tweets were all about “Asians and Chinese” as a general population, which INCLUDES AMs and doesn’t make AM exclusive like all her previous statements of pro-AF only.

    Get your facts straight or you’re just James Lamb lackey with your spin doctoring and distortions.

    Bullshit, why would it be suspicious and inconsistent? What did she do to shame herself from her APIA community? Oh you’re right, the “suspicious and inconsistent” part is about YOU.

    I’ve made my statements clear from the get go and peole here know my stance. On the other hand, your onlines have always been about propping up Jenn Fang and James Lamb lies. The treacherous liar here is YOU.

    Look in the mirror, your LIES, STRAWMAN, OBTUSE minded, MISOGYNIST/SEXIST bully, MILITANT EXTREMIST.

    Yeah, isn’t that just verbatim the words of your overlord RACIST, STRAWMAN, OBTUSE minded, SEXISM-SHAMING/SEXIST BULLY that’s known as Skeet, Jenn Fang and James Lamb.

    You project unto others what your self examplifies to deflect attention. Typical of you liars.

    So what? Are you going to attack every feminist who talks about AMs, even in a positive light?
    That’s severe delusional syndrome behavior.

    PRIME EXAMPLE of your LIES and STRAWMANS as usual.

    we’re talking about dating choices, it’s not as serious as law-breaking convictions.

    You’re the one who brought up all kinds of tangents, but then making separate case statements but disregard the PRINCIPLE of the conversation which you dragged up? Typical.

    This should apply to AF activists like Constance as well, dating white men shouldn’t lose their credibility nor lose people’s faith or trust. Unless an activist broke some kind of law.

    Faith or trust in what? You have your opinions about politics all the time and you can’t tell others how to feel simply based on YOUR OPINIONS of candidates.

    And why aren’t you going after the WM racists who have denigrated Constance Wu in explicit racist terms? Because you’re an enabler of the WM racial hierarchy and ignore it?

    So what’s all these talking points regarding Constance about? Thanks for changing your mind, if you did.

    SPIN DOCTORING! Nobody ever changed their minds on Constance Wu, she’s doing a great job but at the same time nobody can fully get behind her statements because nobody really know what’s she about or is simply just LAMBASTING the establishment out of the same pro-AF sentiments from before…

    I understand, I’m an AM too. To establish TRUST, the activist’s dating choices shouldn’t be the focal point, their message IS. She could be an AF who dates and AM, but IF her messages are hateful toward AMs like Esther Ku, then that’s where it’s hard to trust someone like that as a leader.

    See, more of your LIES. When has Esther Ku EVER dated AMs? Your grammar needs serious work.

    And it’s also questionable you claim to be AM when anybody can be anybody online. Are you even aware of the general racism in USofA, or just supporting the establishment because you think like Michelle Malkin’s Stockholm Syndrome?

  36. @bigWOWO,

    lol I’m gonna slay James Lamb lies later, but not another IR discussion from some of the Reddit links of this conversation… >.<

    It depends on what they’re leading. To be president or to run for Congress, people need to trust you on national issues. Who cares who they date or marry? I certainly don’t. It has nothing to do with the typical causes of national leadership (trade, international relations, the economy, etc.). Unless we’re facing a race-specific crisis, any specific talk on Asian American issues from national leaders is, as it should be, a bonus, not a requirement.

    Actually, those AF politicians I mentioned have done lots of pro-Asian specific issues like getting apologies for the 1882 Chinese Exclusion act and programs to benefit APIA services.

    Of course it’s separate issues and “non-controversial” on some levels than young people online arguments, but nonetheless they’ve done significant good for Asian Americans.

  37. @bigWOWO,

    So yeah, back on topic–if you’re trying to lead a movement or contribute to a movement, your personal choices are up for debate. Can we at least agree on this? It’s not to say that one’s personal choices will disqualify one from certain leadership roles, but they should be up for debate, especially if they are related to one’s activism.

    I think some aspects of social media might be taking things too far. Yeah, while it’s true that several cases of people having got fired for posting some racially maligned comments (mostly has to do with “the n word”), most people aren’t truly malicious like James Lamb and Jenn Fang.

    While the personal is the political and that’s just real life, unless somebody is really trying to pull a fast one and hoodwink others for personal monetary gain or ruin lives, personal choices shouldn’t really be subject to scrutiny in ways that are malicious and damaging to their livelihoods.

    Let’s just not use the “CW” name in these conversations lest the Reappropriate rabid schizos go on sexism shaming yet again as default finger pointers…

  38. If people listen less to black men who marry white women, are you saying black men are victims of sexism? – BigWOWO

    Here’s the thing: it doesn’t really happen. No one listens to Black men less when they date/ marry outside the race, and yes, this is a privilege. When Black men date and marry outside the race, it’s not as if the community abandons them in their times of need, especially if the community perceives their difficulties as racially motivated. The most famous example of this phenomenon is O.J. Simpson. No matter how many White women he dated or married, no matter his Brentwood mansion or his rich White friends, no matter how far Simpson ran from his racial community, as soon as he ran afoul of the law, many, many Black people supported him, and viewed his difficulties as similar to their own.

    No one confused Simpson for some Black leader, but his trial galvanized the politics of a great many people of color, who through his experiences found the LAPD a racist institution hellbent on destroying the lives and fortunes of all Black people, no matter how wealthy or privileged. With leadership, what I can say with certainty is that dating/ marrying outside the race does not sacrifice political support from Black Americans generally. Kevin Johnson, former NBA star and current mayor of Sacramento, CA didn’t sacrifice political support from Black Americans when he married Michelle Rhee, the former Chancellor of the Washington, D.C. School System.

    Hell, Wesley Snipes didn’t even lose Black fans after he married Nikki Park. This entire idea that interracial relationships force the participants to expect a loss in popular support for their views is, on the whole, preposterous — except when it comes to certain women. In the Asian American community, women who date/ marry outside the race can expect a vocal Asian American male minority to shun their ideas and denigrate their perspectives. Those men are sexist.

    Arthur Chu is simply not treated like a pariah among Asian Americans because of his marriage. But literally any Asian American female who’s photographed with a non-Asian partner is viewed as suspect and ‘poisoned’. Constance Wu promotes the exact Asian American party line on Matt Damon’s new role, and she’s seen as a problem because of a private relationship that clearly exerts no discernible effect on her identity politics. That’s sexism, plain and simple.

    Sure, in the 1980’s and 1990’s, it was vogue to expose concerns with interracial relationships some Black women possessed. Spike Lee’s Jungle Fever, among other films, examined these concerns. But this intra-racial angst has not, to my knowledge, affected electoral politics and/or activist standing among Black people, ever. I can’t point to a Black leader of any notoriety who lost his or her position after their interracial relationship became public knowledge.

    Black men don’t receive less public support when they date or marry White women. Nowhere in Dreams from My Father does President Obama share anecdotes in which his relationships with White women cost him support as a community organizer on Chicago’s South Side. None of his past interracial relationships cost him support among Black Americans after he became a national political figure. No, the only group for whom interracial relationships cost anyone public support is your own, BigWOWO, and even that is gender-biased. Knowing all this, it’s clear that the disdain you and those like you display for actresses like Constance Wu and bloggers like Jenn Reappropriate is just sexist. Guys like you simply do not wish to listen to women, especially women you perceive as having rejected the patriarchy imposed by your demographic.

    One of the hardest lessons for some men of color to grasp is that a person can be harmed by White supremacy and injure others through sexism and misogyny simultaneously.

    Again, this is not a interracial relationship conversation, it’s a sexism conversation. You need to recognize the sexism you promote in the world, BigWOWO. Once that happens, maybe then you can reach guys like John Cho, who wax philosophical about the relative plights of genders within the Asian American community without any consideration of Asian American women or any knowledge of their particular histories.

    And to answer your question, if a person tries to lead or contribute to a movement, their personal choices are NOT automatically up for debate. Plenty of libertarians make the personal decision each year to pay taxes that funnel into social safety net programs those libertarians do not support, and no one sane calls these guys insufficiently libertarian.

    To force Asian American women to account for their personal relationships before you are willing to heed their perspectives is just sexist, BigWOWO. Time to let that stuff go.

  39. I dont care about who Constance Wu dates. I think “thank you” for sayibg what she did about the great wall, but I also have a suspicion that unqualified support for her will backfire on Asian men in some way. I have this suspicion that she’ll turn on us at a blink the same way other “liberals” and “activists” have.

    I noticed that she did not say anything new and that the white savior trope is an old complaint. If she says “women” first, that means irregardless of facts and other inconveniences. How long before she pulls a Jeff Yang on us and throws her influence behind something absolutely unforgiveable?

    The personal choices can tell us: is this person congruent with their own message, or are they liars, or deluded with fantasies, are they just brainwashed people made to function like a botnet?

    In practical terms most people will not be able to PERSONALLY effect change. Nevertheless, they may still recognise who will have the quality and what type of collective effort is required to achieve it. This is when their discerning nature will be a decisive factor. Therefore the questions asked are a groundwork. Take note of the obfuscations being peddled.

  40. Mr. Fang,

    No where in your treatise do you actually address how the demographic relevant to the discussion, specifically African American WOMEN, react to African American male activists who marry outside their race. You conveniently use “black people”, “black americans” and “[black] community” in a transparent attempt to dodge the question. The relevant question is do black WOMEN specifically throw less support behind black male activists who outmarry? Do they?

  41. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    people here suggest that they take no issue with interracial dating, but they clearly oppose said dating when women in their community — some of the same people who assert that patriarchy and misogyny within communities of color harms women of color — speak about their experiences in public.

    The usual spin doctoring and STRAWMAN LIES. People here claim that “certain CW” personal life runs COUNTER to their public image given the current neo-colonial social attitudes against Asian Americans.

    You’re making up a STRAWMAN when nobody has anyone of the sort!

    This is not an interracial relationship debate. This is a sexism debate. Some undervalued, irate men of color who experience racism every day of their lives have difficulty with the notion that they benefit from societal and cultural advantages both within and outside their communities based on their gender, and recoil at having that truth pointed out. So they attack the speakers, and claim that the speaker’s personal lives negate their messages.

    No! You’re anti-Asian racist, plain and simple. You keep going on with your sexism shaming, but the fact remains you can’t form coherent pargraphs that expands your core idea, but resorts to self-contradictory statements.

    How’s somebody experience racism benefit from advantages? You claim AM benefit within and otuside our communities, WHERE’S YOUR EVIDENCE AND DATA?

    It’s complete horseshit, but this happens by and large because these guys reject the sexism critique from women of color, not because the personal lives of women of color speak to moral deficiencies that compromise their feminist messages.

    You mean your Reappropriate SJW lunatics who completely rewrite your article once it gets out you’re nothing more than racist finger point against AMs as usual form a WM murder case?

    You’re complete horseshit, James Lamb.

    I’ve asked repeatedly in this space, and no one’s plausibly described the mechanism by which Constance Wu’s personal relationship to her significant other has tainted her message on Hollywood whitewashing.

    People have written it many times, but the fact remains you reject reality and have your lackey Skeet creat FANTASIES of FAKE NARRATIVES on how you create reality against AMs with your racist agendas.

    these Asian American men reject these interracial relationships because, let’s face it, they don’t confirm Asian male patriarchy.

    So you indirectly confirm the WM patriarchy then?

    NOtice it’s you, as a hypocrite, who keeps wag the dog about the IR quagmire…

    Black people who reject certain Black leaders

    Yes, the default everything is about James Lamb and black community issues, but never about LGBT black people because of James Lamb’s heternormative homophobia. What else is new?

    No one rejects Arthur Chu’s perspectives because of who he married. People are free to disagree with his ideas, but no one says that Chu’s writing represents “fruit from the poisoned tree”, and then fails to explain how the poison operates.

    Has Arthur Chu stated anything about Great Wall or any racebending issues at all? In fact, he’s squarely in your SJW camp and doesn’t get the media attention Haolewood is trying to push. No controversy. Boring.

    Also, there’s been plenty of criticism on bigWOWO, Facebook and Reddit against certain AM media personalities, marriage partner is irrelevant in those discussions.

    Yet another James Lamb STRAWMAN.

    According to your thinking, her perspective should be different, because you connect her politics to her sexual choices (a sexist argument to be sure, but that’s you).

    QUOTE anybody who made this statement. Or stop your LIES!

    Everybody agrees with the content of “CW” tweets, but find it dubious where she really stands because she was always pro-AF only in the past.

    The political message Wu espoused argues that people of color should be centralized in their own stories. None of that has anything to do with anyone’s private lives, and only sexism and misogyny tells some of you otherwise. This isn’t about public trust, it’s about patriarchy, specifically the angst some Asian American men feel in a world where they cannot expect the same social and cultural fealty from women in their community that their fathers and grandfathers enjoyed. At some point, folk should realize, your angst is your problem. Constance Wu and women like her will not muzzle themselves so that Asian American men can feel special.

    Yet again more of the James Lamb LIES and STRAWMAN. “CW” has said she’s only interested in AF issues, so then leave the AMs out of it. Go read Byron’s other article.

    But you, James Lamb, practice your racist and anit-AM sexist propaganda to spin doctor your brand of vicious LIES.

    The most famous example of this phenomenon is O.J. Simpson.

    Great show! So what’s a black man’s life worth and a blonde WF life worth, according to you?

    No one confused Simpson for some Black leader, but his trial galvanized the politics of a great many people of color, who through his experiences found the LAPD a racist institution hellbent on destroying the lives and fortunes of all Black people

    Completely missing the point of the 1992 riots and Rodney King…

    In the Asian American community, women who date/ marry outside the race can expect a vocal Asian American male minority to shun their ideas and denigrate their perspectives. Those men are sexist.

    Again, where’s your DATA? You’re racist.

    Arthur Chu is simply not treated like a pariah among Asian Americans because of his marriage.

    Arthur Chu is your secret crush or what? Nobody even pays him any attention and the US mainstream media ignores him. He’s irrelevant to this Great Wall debacle and haven’t said anything. Stay on topic with your own accusations!

    Nowhere in Dreams from My Father does President Obama share anecdotes in which his relationships with White women cost him support as a community organizer on Chicago’s South Side. None of his past interracial relationships cost him support among Black Americans after he became a national political figure.

    You got your timelines mixed up there about Obama, or probably just making up LIES as usual.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2163468/Barack-Obama-The-white-girlfriends-US-President-erased-past.html

    One of the hardest lessons for some men of color to grasp is that a person can be harmed by White supremacy and injure others through sexism and misogyny simultaneously.

    Practice what you preach! You’re anti-AM racist benefiting from the neo-colonial paradigms.

    Again, this is not a interracial relationship conversation, it’s a sexism conversation.

    The only sexist is YOU, James Lamb, who’s staunch anti-AM racist.

    And you’re a hypocrite to keep bringing back the IR debacle.

  42. Snoopy,

    You are all over the place, arguing against positions that no one here ever had. There’s no point in me arguing against your accusations because you and I both know that I never held these positions. We have “disdain” for Constance Wu and Jenn Fang? No one here has any disdain for Constance Wu OR Jenn Fang. Jenn’s opinions are often (in my opinion) ignorant, but that’s entirely different from “disdain” for the person. I argue against her positions and advise her on where to seek truth. That’s not “disdain.” That’s education.

    And to answer your question, if a person tries to lead or contribute to a movement, their personal choices are NOT automatically up for debate.

    Well, can we at least admit that you don’t live by this creed? You and me and 99.999% of the people on this earth do not live by this creed. I’ve seen countless accusations of issues on your site where you and/or Jenn have rightfully excoriated Republicans for not practicing what they preached. It’s only human. I don’t agree with your new stance of “only pay attention to the message.” To me that just seems silly.

  43. I don’t care for Jenn Fang nor James Lamb as people or what they’re about in private life. It’s the height of hubris and arrogance and insecurity complex to think people actually are obsessed about their sad lives.

    However, I do disdain their lies, treachery and hypocrisy to espouse racism and sexism against Asian men. Since the current cultural revolution tactic du jour is sexism shaming, I just find this youtube commentary interesting for the SJW bandwagon.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWROBiX1eSc

  44. All of this began because I pointed out an unfortunate “pattern”
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/06/asian-femal-celebrity-unio/

    James responds that “there is no pattern”… SERIOUSLY? There is no I/R disparity pattern within the Asian American community? Well what the HELL had everybody from Fighting 44s, Yellow World, Model Minority, 8 Asians, Angry Asian Man, been talking about these past 15 years? Was it a gigantic group illusion???

    Secondly, White men have been, and still are, the most powerful demographic in the world. They control most of the power levers not only in American society, but in global society. Now, if the playing field was level and always had been, then maybe nobody would ever marry into a power demographic in order to leverage that power for themselves. Nobody would even think of it. But unfortunately, that is not reality.

    So YES, in a world where marrying a White man certainly can buy you some acceptance and social capital, I’m afraid that such choices cannot be completely “off the table” when it comes to considering possible motive and therefore credibility. It’s not an indictment, it’s not proof of anything wrong, of itself. But to say that it must NEVER EVER even be brought up as a possibility is either shockingly naive or willfully ignorant of human psychology.

  45. Byron, I applaud you for letting Mr Fang post his drivel here with no censorship. He and Jenn Fang, on the other hand, willfully delete and ban people who even respectfully challenge their misperceptions on their own website. Talk about hypocrisy.

  46. Stop dodging, BigWOWO. Your position, that women in your community who engage interracial relationships cannot expect public support for their race activism, because others within their communities take umbrage at their personal relationships, expresses a sexist disdain for these women’s activism. The only reason to reference Constance Wu’s personal life is to highlight how her personal choices apparently do not flatter Asian men.

    In truth, it simply does not matter who Constance Wu or any other Asian American woman dates or marries. What matters is the content of their messages, and in Constance Wu’s instance, she’s said and/ or written nothing that could possibly be misconstrued as antagonistic to Asian Americans generally.

    Quite the contrary. She endangers her career to speak out against Hollywood whitewashing. To recall her personal life at all when discussing her is to promote sexism; no one qualifies all of Bruce Lee’s accomplishments with references to his White wife.

    BigWOWO, if you don’t want to own up to your sexism, fine. You wouldn’t be the first man of color to avoid answering a feminist critique, and you won’t be the last. But you and those who agree with you have offered no mechanism to describe how her significant other affects her politics. If, as King described, statements from Asian American women in interracial relationships represent ‘fruit from the poisoned tree’, you should understand how the poison operates.

    By what mechanism does an Asian American woman find her race activism tainted by her personal relationship to a non-Asian partner? Do you even know? Until you can reasonably describe this, BigWOWO, your argument is fatally flawed.

  47. James responds that “there is no pattern”… SERIOUSLY? There is no I/R disparity pattern within the Asian American community? Well what the HELL had everybody from Fighting 44s, Yellow World, Model Minority, 8 Asians, Angry Asian Man, been talking about these past 15 years? Was it a gigantic group illusion??? — King

    What has everyone been fighting about for the past fifteen years? Feminism. Specifically, the Asian American female ability to engage both free choice in dating and marriage without sacrificing group standing within the Asian American community. King, this isn’t a interracial relationship conversation, this is a sexism conversation.

    The question at issue is this: can people of color pursue romance wherever they like, and still promote their perspectives on political issues while maintaining community standing? Any reasonable observer would suggest that in the Asian American community, the biggest hurdle to that is gender — men can do what they like, women are attacked for dating outside the race.

    That’s sexist.

    In the Black community, for a time, a few disgruntled Black nationalist wannabes argued that Black men who dated outside the race worked against the best interests of the race, but that Jill Scott angst never translated into a serious challenge to anyone, ever. Frankly, patriarchy within the Black community makes the very notion laughable. I know of zero examples where disgruntled Black people — women included — looked askance at a Black male leader who dated or married a non-Black partner in a manner about which the Black male leader actually had to care.

    So the real fault line here is less race than gender. Sexism and misogyny within the Asian American community is the problem, and the only reason anyone at all has cared about other people’s interracial relationships over the past fifteen years. No one here can even describe the mechanism by which an interracial relationship affects a person’s race activism, so it’s not a interracial relationship debate, King. It’s a sexism debate, and to be clear, you are on the wrong side.

    We aren’t talking about acceptance or social capital; Asian American sexists attack women who have never dated White men, just because their partners aren’t Asian. It has nothing to do with anything outside of patriarchal attempts to control Asian American women. It’s just sexism, King.

    The only reason for you to call out Constance Wu’s personal life, as you did in another thread here a few days ago, is to consider her perspectives problematic because of who she dates. That’s sexist. Seriously. If she were a guy by the name of Charles Wu, it’s likely you would not have cared about who he dated.

  48. Mr. Fang – for the record, I could give two shits who Constance Wu dates and although I don’t think she particularly advocates for Asian American men (and that’s fine), I applaud her taking a stand because a rising tide lifts all boats.

    That said, I still find it curious that you feel like you have the authority to lecture Asian American men about whether that what they feel is discriminatory is legitimate or not. For one, you are a black male and have no idea what it’s like to be an Asian American male (if we tried to undermine the discrimination you’ve experienced as a black male or continued to label black males as patriarchal, misogynistic, violent and sexist towards women, I’m sure you’d have something to say about it). Secondly, you accuse Asian American men of not being able to identify or empathize with Asian American women’s experiences and yet in the same holier than thou breath you do just that to Asian American men. That is textbook hypocrisy and a double standard, do as I say not as I do bs.

    You have a nasty habit of deflecting and not addessing direct questions made towards you but instead writing long and repetitive posts that people get lost in (or just quit reading quite frankly l) while really saying nothing relevant to the questions posed of you at all.

  49. Snoopy the champion of Joy Luck Feminism.

    So here are some facts:

    Many of the same women who complain about yellow fever will scrutinize the dating history of every non-asian guy and if he is found to have dated mostly Asian women, that somehow is a problem. Yet, question the fact that many of these women exclusively date White men and then somehow that is a sexist thing to do? What a load of bullshit. At the very least, those women should be consistent and either drop their pontificating on Yellow Fever or apply the same criticism to their own preferences. That’s the definition of hypocrisy.

  50. James, that is an artful dodge, but a dodge none-the-less.

    What you said was that there ‘WAS NO PATTERN.’

    What you are arguing now is that complaining about the pattern (the well-documented Interracial disparity) is sexist, which is a new and different argument altogether.
    The FACT is that the disparity did and does still exist. Nobody was imagining it. The pattern exists.

    So we are not simply talking about proximity and a natural cross attraction between members of differing cultures and ethnicities. What we have is ONE GENDER being exotified and hyper sexualized while the other gender within the same ethnicity is being emasculated and othered. I can guide you to blog post after blog post of Asian women complaining about being exotified, stereotyped, and fantasized, rather than being amorously pursued as a real person flesh-and-blood person. I can also point you to many more blog posts, articles, and tweets of Asian men complaining about being perceived as unattractive and unsuitable by the very same group of White people! Even White women have complained about this strange trend in which certain White men will wish to serially date Asian females to the exclusion of White women, and all other ethnicities.

    So no… this isn’t JUST about sexism. That is a gross oversimplification and quite frankly, is astoundingly tone deaf. If you simply look at how the media has portrayed Asian men, and then look at how the same media has portrayed Asian women, you will see that this is not all just in the heads of Asian men. Asian men are reacting to a form of prejudice.

    Now, can Asian men go overboard and get sexist in their reaction? Of course. But that is not the heart of the matter. The reality is that there has been a systematic effort to portray and to socialize Asian males and females differently in Western societies. So given that reality it is disingenuous to pretend that hypergamy as a possible motive for marrying White should be blindly ignored as a possibility. YES Asian women sometimes play into the White supremacist system of socialization and mindset and should be called on it when it becomes clear that they do.

    I’m not saying that this is necessarily the case with Constance Wu, but neither will I accept that the possibility cannot even be entertained out loud without it being shouted down as ‘sexism.’

  51. Sexism, no matter who here wishes to admit it, presents a serious problem within communities of color. Men of color like us should be willing to examine how our own behavior contributes to sexism and misogyny in our communities.

    Some feminist critiques are valid; some are not. But the knee-jerk indifference here to even admitting the possibility of a gender-bias problem within communities of color troubles. Black men do not have this luxury of indifference; we men of the darker nation often model sexism and misogyny for American society; from hip hop to post-Civil Rights Movement leadership; from parenting stereotypes to violent crime statistics Black men are often viewed by others as the nation’s most damaging sexists. Much of this critique lacks validity. Not all. Maturity involves a conscious recognition of the ill one promotes in the world.

    For example, it is true that Black men protest killings of their number by police officers, in hashtags and street confrontations. We do not tend to find the same national outpouring of grief and rage when Black women are killed by police. That difference in response speaks to a gender bias that should trouble everyone, and groups like Say Her Name exist to combat that gender imbalance. Because of their work, among others, it is no longer acceptable in anti-racist spaces to speak about Alton Sterling and Philando Castile without discussion of Rekia Boyd or Shantel Davis.

    The point is that confronting men of color on their sexism is positive and necessary work. So even though it may be uncomfortable for some of you, it is positive that someone points out the virulent sexism popular on this site. Arthur Chu’s relationship doesn’t negate his race activism on behalf of Asian Americans. Constance Wu’s relationship doesn’t negate her race activism on behalf of Asian Americans. Jenn Reappropriate’s relationship doesn’t negate her race activism on behalf of Asian Americans.

    It’s time to let the sexism go, people.

  52. Nice dodge, Snoopy. How about confronting these women on their hypocrisy? Is that positive and necessary work?

  53. King, I’ve never believed there exists some massive disparity between Asian American men and women who date and/or marry outside the race. Further, I don’t believe that massive disparities exist between Black men and women who date and/ or marry outside the race. The statistics, such as they exist, make clear that most people of color date and/ or marry partners within their racial background.

    So yes, there’s no pattern, because there’s no relevant disparity. None. What we observe instead, are a bunch of Asian Americans, mostly men, who castigate Asian American women for interracial relationships to further patriarchy.

    Hypersexualization and exoticism abounds; certainly Black men and women deal with that excessively, as do all people of color. But to pretend that a reasonable response to anti-Asian male stereotypes in American culture is the angry antagonism some Asian men indulge against Asian American women involved with non-Asian partners ignores the unabashed Asian male sexism on display, in this space and others.

    You justify the attack of people who did not and have not worked to create a system where Asian males are emasculated and Asian women hypersexualized. No Asian American female has anything to do with popular stereotypes that work against Asian Americans generally, but you think it valid when Asian men attack fellow victims of that system. King — this is sexism. If Asian men wish to fight emasculation stereotypes, attacking Asian American feminists for speaking about their experiences is simply not the way.

    Nor is bringing up Constance Wu’s relationship to a White man in an effort to discredit her position on White male visibility in Hollywood movies about the stories of non-White people. As I recall, that was you King. You were being sexist. You may wish to examine that.

  54. Old Yeller,

    You can see what happens when an extremist’s ability to censor disappears. It’s like jumping into the deep end after a lifetime of using floaties! With Snoopy, he’s persistent, so he’ll keep posting things that have nothing to do with the topic, accusing people of the usual. But everyone here can see the tricks. That’s what happens when there’s uncensored conversation.

    You also see the Extremist Toolkit in full force. No one here attacked Constance Wu. But yet that comes up again and again as one of his primary talking points. It’s intended to put us on the defensive, and it probably works within his social justice warrior social circles. But for us, there’s nothing to get defensive about, since we clearly NEVER attacked Constance Wu. Even the people here who usually disagree with me didn’t attack her. It never happened.

    Personally, I do wish he’d admit it when he’s wrong. He’s clearly wrong, both on the facts and the obvious contradictions. But he’s persistent.

    James,

    As King pointed out, you said there’s NO PATTERN. You certainly didn’t get that information (“NO PATTERN!”) from actual numbers, as King also pointed out. But what’s even scarier is that you didn’t get that information from observation either. If you can’t see what’s right in front of your face, it’s going to be hard for you to understand what’s going on in real life. And if you can’t understand what’s going on in real life, then how do you expect us to have a conversation with you?

    You’re off on in all different areas of this conversation. “Message only” is one of your new arguments, and it’s ridiculous. As I mentioned (just before and throughout this entire conversation), when it comes to “message only,” you don’t live what you preach, nor SHOULD you live what you preach. “Message only” is so silly that the English language even has an expression for it: “Do as I say not as I do.” You don’t live it, Jenn doesn’t live it, I don’t live it, and everyone we know doesn’t live it. Exactly why you’re preaching it here is something that none of us understand. It kinda makes it seem like you have a, cough, cough, ulterior motive. It seems like you’re deflection coaching.

    King, Notty, Old Yeller, and I have all pointed out the contradictions in your stances. Will you address them? Can you address them?

  55. To remind everyone of Constance Wu’s personal relationship with a non-Asian partner when discussing her stance against Matt Damon’s new movie role as an example of Hollywood whitewashing on this site is an attack against her, as it serves only to discredit her in the estimation of most commenters here, people who generally take a dim view of political Asian American women in interracial relationships.

    King did that, and as I said before, it was a sexist move. But as I said before, there is no pattern. There’s no massive gender imbalance in interracial dating/ marriage in the Asian American community or African American community. Among both groups, most people date and marry members of that group. So no, there’s no pattern.

    All there is, as I stated before, is sexism from men of color who try desperately to preserve the benefits of whatever patriarchy they have left. That’s what you do BigWOWO. You believe that Asian American women involved with non-Asian partners can make no reasonable claim to race activism or leadership because of their personal relationship. That is a sexist position, designed only to control women in your community.

    So now you know. What you do with this knowledge is up to you.

  56. You cant engage with a person who dodges questions that undermine their argument and who tries to tell you blue is red despite all the evidence to the contrary. Snoopy isn’t arguing in good faith so this conversation will remain a waste of time until he decides to be intellectually honest.

  57. Byron – I may have to take back my comment from before – perhaps you should censor this idiot. The denial and stubbornness is so strong in Mr. Fang that he more or less constitutes a troll at this point. Don’t give him another platform to spread his willful and deceitful agenda. I’ll be sure never to click on his wife’s blog again (which I see he plugged in one of his posts – shameless).

  58. bigWOWO wrote:

    “Message only” is one of your new arguments, and it’s ridiculous.

    My previous “question” to Mr. Fang got lost or he’s probably just ignoring me as usual, but my challenge was: does James Lamb wholeheartedly support the “Founding Fathers of the USofA” and especially Thomas Jefferson simply based on their ideas/message and not their personal lives?

    Does Sally Hemings not matter to Mr. Fang that the writer of the constitution of the ideals “equality, liberty and justice for all” also owned slaves? And is Mr. Fang going off the BLM playbook for slavery reparations when he says that only the message matters and not the personal lives of political activist people?

  59. I may or may not have time later to slay the lies and hypocrisy by Mr. Fang. But in addition to King’s comments about blog articles of (“fringe”) AF writers complaining about not being able to find WM with yellow fever fetishes with asking about the WM dating history but never examining their own history only dating WMs, I think the US Census does a pretty good job of the data and actually breaks it down by “race” for ethnicity and with APIAs the trend is like 3:1 AF:AM hypergamy.

    Also, since Mr. Fang cares so much about AF rights and issues, maybe he should look into helping AF to not get STDs. The last time they had it was 4:1 AF:AM STD rates conducted by an AF professor married to a WM.

    http://hyphenmagazine.com/blog/2010/05/study-finds-disturbing-std-rates-among-asian-americans

    I’m sure there are “obvious reasons” why no followup was done to everybody except for Mr. Fang, but the CDC compiled some statistics earlier in 2016 about the STD/HIV rates and it’s comparable:

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/racialethnic/asians

    James Lamb, why don’t you help to save AFs from evil AM sexism and how the government is lying about STD transmission rates from the fringe online evil AM sexists?

  60. I certainly haven’t dodged any relevant questions here. I state simply that the sexism inherent in the “no-interracial relationships for race activists” stance adopted by BigWOWO and many other commenters here undermines communities of color.

    Further, it’s clear that intellectual honesty requires the acknowledgement that most people of color date and marry people who share their racial backgrounds. This is true of African Americans and Asian Americans. So no pattern of overt outmarriage, and King and others describe, really exists.

    What clearly exists, is a desire to end stereotypes that negatively affect Asian American men, along with a strong drive to reassert patriarchy over Asian American women. Emasculation stereotypes harm people, obviously. Just as obvious, however, is the fact that sexism and misogyny harm people.

    So I ask you all to examine the ways in which you may contribute to sexism and misogyny within your groups. Certainly antagonism toward Asian American feminists who do nothing but speak and write about gender and race activism from their own perspectives does not help anyone reconsider the emasculation stereotypes upon which so many of you fixate.

  61. Mr. Fang – you seem to know a whole lot about what Asian American men apparently think and out motivations. So much so that you paint us with a pretty broad dismissive brush. I’m curious, as a black man, how did you acquire such experience and expertise about the minds, motivations and intentions of Asian American men?

  62. Ok, if Mr. Fang doesn’t answer the “slaves” question, I’ll answer it for you guys.

    Delusional wackjob 12-year old Sir_Humps wrote:

    Does Sally Hemings not matter to Mr. Fang that the writer of the constitution of the ideals “equality, liberty and justice for all” also owned slaves?

    Here’s something new for you guys go learn. ENEMY OF YOUR ENEMIES IS YOUR FRIEND.
    Two sides who don’t see eye to eye, but when faced with a COMMON ENEMY, two sides become solidary friends to battle the common enemy.

    The Northern Union States had a lot of slave owners, after beating the Confederate States of the South in the Civil War to free all the slaves, many slave owners from the North were forgiven. Blacks gave credits to the Northern Union States for freeing the slaves and forgave the fact that many Union States also owned slaves in the past. It’s the positives changes that outweighed the negatives.

    It’s the same deal, with the coalition alliance between the United States and Japan today. Both sides are able to forget past differences and past sins such as Pearl Harbor, Japanese Internment Camps, Nukes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Now, past enemies Japan and the U.S. are able to ally, joined forces to defend and fight against common enemies from China and North Korea.

    Both AF feminists (such as Constance and Jenn Fang) and Asian American masculinity men don’t see eye to eye on many issues, but both sides can rise above their differences and join forces to combat common enemies such as Haolewood whitewashing Asian characters, cultural appropriations, many other common racism the white establishment brings.

  63. Snoopy Jenkins,

    “So no pattern of overt outmarriage, and King and others describe, really exists.”

    What the fuck are you talking about, mate?

    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2010/10/755-marrying-out.pdf

    “Among Asians, the gender pattern runs the other way. Some 40% of Asian female newlyweds married outside their race in 2008, compared with just 20% of Asian male newlyweds.”

    And this is only looking at percentages of marriages. The disparity in co-habitation rates are worse. The disparity in casual dating even worse still.

    I can’t believe I’m seeing a black dude coming in to deny and handwave away another minority group’s internal social problems. Are you fucking serious? I’ve seen a lot of bullshit on the internet but this is right up there with the most mindblowing.

    “What clearly exists, is a desire to end stereotypes that negatively affect Asian American men, along with a strong drive to reassert patriarchy over Asian American women. Emasculation stereotypes harm people, obviously. Just as obvious, however, is the fact that sexism and misogyny harm people.”

    Are you claiming that there is a problem with Asian-American culture? That specifically there is a problem with sexism and misogyny in Asian-American culture? Because if you are then let there be open season on critiquing the cultures of minority groups. I’m ready.

  64. Emasculation? How about a lack of passion, drive, or assertiveness? Or perhaps these are the symptoms of what emasculation does to men?

    Most Asian dudes I come across still depend on the White man for his paycheck.

    I agree with Snoopy sometimes that Asian men whine about their “much ado about nothing” shortcomings.

  65. Kevin,

    The statistics you cite verify my point: if 40% of Asian female newlyweds married outside their race in 2008, the majority married within their race. If a fifth of Asian male newlyweds married outside their race in 2008, four-fifths married within their race. No pattern of overt outmarriage exists, given those statistics.

    As for the rest, no. I don’t think that Asian Americans have a cultural problem, and never suggested otherwise. I think certain Asian American men have a sexism problem. It’s pretty common among men of color generally; certainly African American men have concerns on this issue, as I outlined above.

    But it’s not about culture, it’s about people. No one’s culture asks anyone to ignore or undercut free expression and free association from an entire gender within a racial group. That’s something else. The important question asks what people plan to do about this problem. Denying sexism, as many people here have in this conversation, is a poor start.

  66. Denying the subliminal effects of White privilege and the White Beauty Standards is a better start.

  67. Most Asian women like White men simply because of physical attraction and the benefits that come with a White mate.

    It isn’t rocket science, the idea of Asian men being sexist have nothing to do with it. It’s all about attraction and White privilege, plain and simple.

  68. And one can make a similar argument for Asian men with White women, but the relationship seems to require the man to hold a higher standard in relation to his career, income and assets. Basically, White women who date/marry Asian men aren’t into averages, hence the lopsided disparity that many Asian men like to complain about.

  69. Aardvark/King:

    Yes, great question, Aardvark. I think you remember exactly that it was Snoopy who was going off on Thomas Jefferson because he felt that the message didn’t match the lifestyle. If anyone else wants to reread that, it’s here. 217 comments were spent on Snoopy arguing the exact opposite position of what he’s now saying. I guess it depends on who we’re talking about. It’s “message only” if it helps with the Blame Whitey and Chang movement; “normal common sense” for everything else. That’s the definition of emotional reasoning.

    Kevin and Notty and Old Yeller,

    I agree with you. Snoopy is not arguing in good faith. So I’m going to claim my victory and make my exit. The good part about this is that we had never had a post about the common “My body and politics are separate” excuse. Now we have such a post, so that whenever we hear that silly excuse from the Asian American feminists, we can just refer people here.

    Snoopy,

    I’m claiming my victory and will move on. Cheers.

  70. @Snoopy Jenkins,

    You concept of ‘overt patterns’ requiring a majority is laughable.
    Why don’t you expand your convenient logic to other areas?,

    (1) There’s no problem with policing in the US, since the majority do not kill black men.
    (2) There’s no problem with slavery in the US, since the majority of whites did not own slaves.
    (3) There’s no problem with black incarceration in the US, since the majority are not in jail.
    (4) There’s no problem with guns in the US, since most don’t get shot.
    (5) There’s no problem with sexism with AM or any other race, since the majority aren’t.

  71. Byron, the part about Asian men being denigrated in society is full stop BS. If Asian dudes are willing to compete ruthlessly for the best schools, then why don’t they applied the same mindset on other things?

    Inequality in any form is never good, but that’s life. Many Asians are happy to know that they are the more privileged racial minority when comparing to Blacks and Hispanics, and want to preserve that privilege.

    I don’t see Asians taking full advantage of what America has to offer. It’s like I’m living in New York City, and my entire life is centered around Chinatown and Chinese food. And many White people are in fact mediocre, most in fact. But somehow Asians don’t want to best them.

  72. Oh, and just to be clear, my exit just means my exit. Nobody has been banned or censored, especially not those who are entertaining and funny. 🙂

  73. Can pretty much said what I was going to ask.

    And you have to compare the 40% with other ethnicities out dating numbers to truly appreciate how high it is.

  74. It pleases me to see James Lamb’s mendacity highlighted so thoroughly.

    This is the James Lamb clown act: flip pancake batter (or burgers) ineptly in public, and when it falls on his face, just carry on as usual as if it belongs there.

    LMAO

  75. While I agree with your overall premise that overall Constance Wu’s outspokenness is at the end of the day good for all Asian Americans, I don’t think you used the best analogies. Also, I would caution against using Japanese American internment as a concern of Japan. It should’ve been and should be a concern and a lesson for us Americans.

  76. The intermarriage rate for Jews with non-Jews is at 50% or above. That’s very high. And many Jewish men in particular intermarry with Asian women. Where as studies have shown that Jewish women show very little interest for Asian men and also Black men, when it comes to outdating and outmarriages. So there’s a gender disparity with that. I was reading somewhere that a Jewish woman who is married to an Asian dude, he happened to be a waiter at a Chinese restaurant, and we’re talking about the 1980s, made this unsavory remark that she was very lucky to snag a rare find, a handsome Asian guy, because most Asian men she thought were unattractive.

  77. My comment was directed towards Skeet’s earlier conclusion for the record.

    As for Mr. Fang, you seem to not understand the difference between a pattern and a static statistic. Assuming your 40% outmarriage statistic is correct, that doesn’t septal at all to a dynamic pattern. And before you quote the article from a few years ago stating that that percentage has stabilized, I would point out that it is unquestionable from mostlt ANYBODY that there is a higher incidence of XMWF outmarriage than the opposite. Like I said before, I don’t really give two shits about that but to deny that is absurd at best and willfully deceitful at worst. Let me ask you this, what is the comparative statistic like in the black community? As usual, I fully expect you not to respond or address this question.

  78. The emasculation theme with Asian men in America is really about women not appreciating Asian men, simply because out of physical attractiveness issues or lack of it. It’s not a Hollywood thing per se.

  79. Chr – if you truly believe Holywood and the mass media has nothing to do with it, I have a bridge to sell you

  80. OldYeller wrote:

    While I agree with your overall premise that overall Constance Wu’s outspokenness is at the end of the day good for all Asian Americans, I don’t think you used the best analogies. Also, I would caution against using Japanese American internment as a concern of Japan. It should’ve been and should be a concern and a lesson for us Americans.

    My comment was directed towards Skeet’s earlier conclusion for the record.

    Japanese people still remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Americans still remember Pearl Harbor, but both were able to put aside their differences from the past and moved on to form a united coalition to defend against NK, China, & Russia, their common threats.

    Japanese American Internment Camps are Asian Americans and Japanese American’s concerns, but Japanese Americans still have many relatives back home in Japan, so they still can remind their relatives what happened to them in America. Still an indirect involvements of past history, Japanese Americans were in between two sides, still part of that particular history but didn’t become a clutch to their alliance.

    BigWowo wrote:

    They will lose people’s trust, but that’s a human thing, not a legal thing. People want their leaders to look like the world they desire.

    Let’s go back to an example that Aardvark brought up upthread. He said something about doctors who eat McD’s. I absolutely disagreed with him above because doctors are service providers, not leaders. BUT…in the world of health, such leaders exist.

    Tony Horton created and runs the P90x empire. He’s in phenomenal shape. I think (and I hope I’m not getting him mixed up with someone else) he said that he occasionally eats a Big Mac, and that it was his one and only health-vice.

    And that’s the same thing with Asian American activism. If you talk Asian but only date White, there’s a gap between words and actions. Perhaps even more importantly, there’s a gap between words and knowledge. How can an Asian American activist talk about Asian Americans if she doesn’t associate with other Asian Americans? How would Tony Horton be able to talk about the healthy lifestyle if he didn’t live it himself?

    So your anguish over TRUST is because you want to be able to TRUST your APIA LEADER. I can definitely solace that notion.

    However Byron, how many AF feminists or activists are you expecting to become LEADERS of the APIA community? In the past 30 years we’ve had zero APIA leader, so why are you expecting so much out of these activists. Let’s say there are 30 AF feminists/activists, there’s ONLY ONE that’s potentially going to be leader of the APIA community, white the other 29 will not be leaders. So there’s absolutely no reasons for you to apply the word “TRUST” onto all the AF feminists/activists when 95% of them will never going to be leaders of the APIA community.

    Once again you are expecting TOO MUCH out of these activist sisters that you cannot wrap around the idea to trust them. There’s ONLY ONE LEADER, the rest are just regular vocal activists, so you don’t need to apply the TRUST label when they’re not even leaders.

    I brought up the topic of “Enemy of your enemies is your Friend”, AF feminists/activists and Asian American males don’t agree on many issues especially about masculinity, but that doesn’t mean both sides cannot work together for the common goal, or in this case against a common opponent Haolewood.

    Look at the history between the United States and Vietnam, these two countries were former enemies, but now they’re working together to defend against a common threat. The U.S. just lifted the arms sales embargo to Vietnam so they can defend against a common threat in the South China Sea. The U.S. and VN still have a lot of issues they haven’t worked out, they still don’t see eye to eye on issues like human rights and free-press rights. They’re still able to rise above and overlooked those differences, unified to become allies against a common threat in the South China Sea. Does VN and the USA TRUST each other? Probably not, but even without trust, does not stop both sides from being an alliance.

    Another scenario are pro sports. Many pro teams acquire through trades to get a star player/leader from the opposing team. So should the team TRUST this new star player/leader? You bet they do, reason being they only care about one thing and that is to win a championship, that is their primary focus. The Cleveland Cavs and Miami Heat were former opposing teams, but when Lebron James was traded to the Heat, they became an instant contender and trusted each other to win 2 championships. Currently, it’s the same thing happening in Golden State Warriors when they acquired Kevin Durant from the enemy team Oklahoma City, they don’t know if they can trust KD, but the Warriors sure want to work with their new teammate to achieve a common goal, that is to win another championship. Did the Denver Broncos TRUST Peyton Manning when they acquired him from the enemy team the Colts? Not only Peyton became leader of the Broncos but together with his new teammates they were able to rise above their differences of the past and worked toward a common goal resulted in the Broncos won a championship.

    You see Byron, just because AF feminists/activists and AM masculinity don’t get along together real well doesn’t mean they can’t work together for the common goal, that goal is to tackle Haolewood whitewashing of Asian characters, cultural appropriations, and many other common racism from the white establishment.

  81. Skeet,

    What you say makes sense. So let me touch on two issues:

    1. First, when you talk about a LEADER, you’re talking about Asian Americans in the 21st century. Charismatic leadership doesn’t exist the same way it did during the 60’s, so you can’t expect a Malcolm or Martin to emerge (Obama and Bill Clinton are rare individuals who’ve managed to break that rule.). In any case, Asian Americans never appreciated charismatic leadership in the same way; we’re more like the Jews who have committees. So our “leadership” tends to be less top-down. Put this way, a leader is simply someone that people follow. If you think about it this way, those feminists we’re discussing already have committees and groups. They are already leaders. You become a leader just by putting yourself out there and having a fan who listens to you. You’re a leader too, as am I.

    Look at this picture over here:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2012/07/asian-american-writers-workshop-launch-party/

    That was created by leaders. You’ll note that a certain Asian gender is all but left out of this fine “Asian American” event, but it was still created by leaders–local, 21st century-style committee leaders. That’s what we need to work on. We’re not waiting for a big leader; we need to work with our local leaders.

    2. You’re talking about the U.S. working with Vietnam, or members of the Mavs and Heat working together. In other words, you see us as two teams. Ironically, your advice is exactly what I proposed in my last foray onto Reappropriate. We cheer each other on, get out of each others way when we need to, and share when appropriate. Read it here:

    http://reappropriate.co/2016/07/dear-john-feministjohncho/#comment-2799682032

    It isn’t working because…well, one team isn’t cooperating…and it’s not us.

    Pretend Asian men are Vietnam and Asian feminists are the U.S. We Vietnamese approach the more powerful U.S., and we ask to work together. The U.S. says, “Sure! But first thing first…we need to kick out your president and put our own representative in. After that, we also want to install our own finance minister and general of the army. While we’re at it, let’s purge your entire parliament/congress of all heterosexual men. We’ve got enough of those in the world.”

    We Vietnamese say, “What??? You have no idea what it’s like in our part of the world.”

    The U.S. screams, “What are you? Sexist? Patriarchical? We know what’s best.”

    We say, “But we want…”

    “Shut up or you’ll be banned.”

    “But…”

    “Hey, if you want to partner with us, you’ll do so on our terms.”

    “Have you heard of the IR disparity.”

    “Nope. Doesn’t exist. Less than 40%, my Asian brother. If you mention that again, you’ll be sorry. Now hand over the keys to your weapons arsenal…before you make me really mad.”

    You get the picture. I agree with you, Skeet. There are certain things that Asian American feminists have going for them that Asian men in general don’t have–which is exactly what John Cho was talking about. They’re in the spotlight more. They tend to be better at getting paid for their work. They’ve got more friends in high places. Their husbands and boyfriends often run things. It would be great to work with them. But not if it means denying reality and simply following orders. Life is too short to do that.

  82. I’m surprised there aren’t more hate crimes and stigmatization against Asian males because Hollywood is so adamant in portraying Asian men in such a negative light.

    Many Asian dudes in America just can’t adapt successfully with what is around them, and blame their shortcomings on racism. Worse, I don’t find many of them demonstrating any unique talent or creating unique situations, where others are impressed. Or maybe we just suck with it comes to marketing ourselves.

    Then there’s the other problem. If Asian men would prevail with great intensity and success, we would expect a very unpleasant black lash from White, Black and Hispanic guys.

    Here’s the real issue, American success doesn’t come from being nice and polite, which conflicts with Asian values.

    Just look at Gary Locke’s demise as a politician.

  83. I first started reading Asian American sites in late 2003. I think I participated/lurked goldsea and asiafinest mostly. I only found the Fighting44s a while later although it might have existed already at the time.
    Back then, a lot folks were also new and they shared some misc info about themselves. Some of the tidbits several posters (mostly female) brought up were that they started participation in Asian American Forums just AFTER they had met their current white boyfriend. Unfortunately no one offered an opinion as to why this might be happening and I have never seen this come up again anywhere since. At the time, I thought this linkage of joining Asian American sites and recently finding a white boyfriend was somewhat counter-intuitive. I’m not stating that this is related to the observation that the majority of Asian American feminists/progressives marry/date non-asian but it does strike me as being similarly counter-intuitive.

  84. Goldsea, AFinest etc…the same old recycled AM empowerment BS, especially GS, encourages the pandering of the White power structure, with their articles on the best business schools for a MBA program, by providing sound advice, so Asian dudes can get a fat paycheck from the White MAN, while at the same time complaining about him, because he’s a racist with the glass ceiling.

  85. Chr – I don’t understand your last comment at all. Nothing wrong with going to business school and trying to get a fat paycheck. Also nothing wrong with pointing out that there does indeed seem to be a bamboo ceiling.

  86. How about getting a fat paycheck from an Asian boss?

    When I was growing up, I was taught to work for White people, because they were nicer, more professional and their jobs pay better. You were loser if you work for your own kind. Now, I did have a stint with an Asian boss, and yes, he paid me with paltry wages, and try to exploit me to the fullest.

    The entire AA equality movement is a fucking sham and is hypocritical.

  87. Chr – you seem bitter about something. I don’t know in what field you work so I can’t comment on your work situation. As for your comment on Asian (or Asian American?) bosses, Im not sure I understand the relevance – sounds like you had a shitty Asian boss that took advantage of you. Not sure how that equates to the AA equality movement being “a sham and hypocritical”

  88. Asians LOVE to PANDER to White people. This is the gist of the problem and the only problem.

    What field, why does it fucking matter? You have Asians in Hollywood complaining about racism, the same goes for the cubicle Asian chump, who has an Ivy League degree working for Corporate USA.

    Hypocritical — Can’t even get your own house in order and you tell others what to do.

    I would like to know how many AAs out there had great Asian bosses who treated them well with good pay. I’ll take them any day over a White owned company full of White people because of cultural familiarity and ease.

  89. MMJames:

    Some of the tidbits several posters (mostly female) brought up were that they started participation in Asian American Forums just AFTER they had met their current white boyfriend. Unfortunately no one offered an opinion as to why this might be happening and I have never seen this come up again anywhere since.

    That’s a great point.

    I think it does make a lot of sense, although, as you mention, it’s counterintuitive. If you’ve dated Asian women who have only dated White guys (with the exception of you, of course!), you probably know that many of them are very aware of cultural differences. They also question how they can feel pride in their culture while being primarily attracted to White guys. There’s a big question that they’re looking to answer. I think this is why they go to those sites. Also, in general, Asian American activism tends to be friendlier to women who date White. There may be more freedom for them to speak on the issue since they’re more accepted.

    Keep in mind that I think these women, many of whom are NOT Asian American feminists, have a lot of insight, sometimes in interesting ways. I have a good friend, for example, who noticed that her Caucasian boyfriends have a different notion of space. In many ways, one’s eyes do open to different cultures when one dates non-Asian. Doing so brings one’s own culture into contrast, and one becomes aware of things that were once taken for granted. In this sense, they might have a lot more to say.

    The women at the 44’s were primarily attracted to Asian guys. But I think the 44’s was an exception. Most of the women were also from overseas, so they weren’t Asian American. Plus, the mods made certain that the place was friendly towards Asian-attracted Asian women.

  90. I can’t believe I’m seeing a black dude coming in to deny and handwave away another minority group’s internal social problems. — Kevin Kyaw

    It must be frustrating for you to have someone like me, with zero prior knowledge or interest in the Asian American community, with no meaningful connection to the Asian American community, and with dark skin analyze and discuss what I do not consider a meaningful internal social problem within your community in your presence. I can understand your frustration, because that dynamic plays out with African Americans all the time.

    It’s popular in this space, where non-Blacks wax philosophical about what’s awry in the Black community, and why Black people should heed Asian American examples to remake their culture into something more palatable to White and Asian interests. Much of the earlier debate on Thomas Jefferson to which some people here alluded earlier in this conversation began as a lament from the blog owner and others about Black collegians who protest their institutions’ continued fealty to historic White supremacists like Woodrow Wilson, John C. Calhoun, and Thomas Jefferson.

    Incidentally, the previous debate did not concern public moralizing that did not jibe with a speaker’s private life. It concerned child rape. Thomas Jefferson, without violating any law under which he was subject at the time, raped Sally Hemings with impunity from her early teenage years until well into late adulthood. In parallel, this current conversation is not about differences in public messages versus a speaker’s private living. It’s about sexism. Constance Wu exhibits no hypocrisy in any sense when she excoriates Hollywood for casting Matt Damon in a fantasy movie on ancient China while she dates a White man. Hollywood relates stories about the human condition in the global public square; Ms. Wu’s private life is her business.

    The point of all this background Kevin, is to reiterate that none of us suffer from cultural failings. There is nothing wrong with Asian American culture; there is nothing wrong with African American culture. The problem lies with the actions individuals take that injure others. Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner and rapist who crafted and maintained a White supremacist system that oppressed people of African descent for generations. Today, men of color who deny feminist critiques of their actions, even within communities of color, perpetuate patriarchy, and harm women of color who have every right to write what they wish, protest what they wish, and date whom they wish, without any loss of standing within their communities.

    None of us have to agree with another person’s message. But when we agree with an individual’s perspective it makes no sense to consider that person’s statement ‘fruit from the poisoned tree’ simply because they engage a private, non-criminal relationship between consenting adults. Too many men of color express anger over outmarriage statistics that simply do not matter. All these statistics suggest is that the majority of people of color date and marry partners within their own communities. That’s it.

    Women of color should not endure endless vitriol from their brothers and uncles and fathers and friends over their personal relationships. There’s no way to police sexuality in a manner that respects women’s rights in our society, and communities of color thrive when we engage robust political debates among ourselves, tempered by political unity. Women can’t join those debates when men castigate them for marrying men outside their communities.

    Black America still has a long journey ahead to blend anti-racist advocacy with feminism, but the #BlackLivesMatter movement began with conscious interest in advocating for the entire community, without allowing gender and orientation hierarchies to take center stage. It’s the first anti-racist mass movement to excite Black America in my experience that overtly disdains sexism and homophobia, and governs itself with that premise in mind. It’s a very positive step, an example that we all should note, in my view.

  91. Chr – I still don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Who doesn’t have their “own house in order” and is “telling you what to do”? You sound a little imbalanced, I hate to say.

  92. There is nothing wrong with Asian American Culture?

    First off, what is Asian American Culture? What is it?

    Second, the entire Asian American equality movement is a sham. It was never about equality, but finding privilege and acceptance among the White Status Quo.

    Third, there is no such thing as an Asian America. Asians of one ethnic group rarely “intermarry” with Asians of a different ethnic group. White Americans are now for the most part an amalgamation of the different European groups, that have settled in America.

  93. Wait Mr. Fang, so you admit it’s “frustrating” when a person of one color tries to lecture people of another color on what issues the latter faces and how to fix them and then you turn around and continually do just that on this blog? Hahaha – well at least you’re open about your blatant hypocrisy. You should know then that also makes you lack any credibility.

  94. Chr said : Third, there is no such thing as an Asian America. Asians of one ethnic group rarely “intermarry” with Asians of a different ethnic group

    I don’t necessarily agree with this statement. Up here in Toronto, Chinese and Koreans intermarry a lot when we look at generation 2 or above (so much so that I wonder sometimes if this might not be the preferred coupling over purely Chinese or Korean). This mixing doesn’t seem to exist at all for first Gens.

  95. Toronto is up in Canada. And Canada has always been a more conducive place for Asians to thrive, unlike the spiteful USA. Is it not? There’s plenty of Chinese Canadians who are high profile bureaucrats. You’re living in a different world.

  96. Chr is a Haole troll and should be treated as such. Don’t waste your time.

    I find schooling Mr. Fang and his lackey Skeet entertaining when I’m not swamped with projects, so maybe or maybe not I’ll school them some more on Friday if it’s not crazy again at the cubicle world of bamboo ceilings.

  97. Troll? You and others are in denial of your own shortcomings that have nothing to do with anyone else, but yourself.

    Stop blaming the media and White men.

    I make my living by having a White clientele.

  98. @Chr.

    Even if what you say is correct (that the emasculation of Asian men is their own fault, and not due to the media or society), it does not refute BigWOWO’s argument that Asian males will have their interests better represented if Asian American activism splits and go their separate ways. As feminists do not want men to “mansplain” their issues, I can see why not having AFWM couples represent AM can be a good idea.

  99. Chr the albino wrote:

    I make my living by having a White clientele.

    Own it! Instead of using your Haolewood brainwashing machine and make Asian actors gay when white gay actors can’t even be themselves in summer blockbusters, just own your sexuality. Be proud of your sexual orientation, Chr!

  100. @OldYeller,

    Because Byron is an awesome human being and a true believer of the American ideal of freedom of speech. lol

    Some of the censorship issues on Reddit’s Asian American forum, Reappropriate, etc. is outrageous given their kowtowing operators wanting to desperately acknowledged as Americans but not even respecting the fundamental rules of what this country is about. >.<

  101. Aardvark – I agree that Byron is very tolerant and that censorship in general is wrong. It’s great to hear everyone’s perspective but when it’s clear that certain posters are not acting in good faith, then I think censorship is more acceptable. The asianamerican subreddit and Mr/Mrs Fang’s blog that I shall not even give the benefit of naming takes censorship to North Korea level, deleting posts and banning posters simply for disagreeing with them or calling out their double standards, even without profanity or name calling. They create a false reality and control the message on their boards so strictly that it borders on propaganda. I don’t think they should be given a platform to speead their lies here as well.

  102. Kyrie – go suck your brother’s dick with mayonnaise, you inbred mouth breather.

  103. “Asian men idolize blackness to be cool and to get laid lol. Check out these wannabe asian dudes.”

    It’s probably more accurate to say that ‘Hip Hop’ is a “culture,” much like other music-based cultures like Punk and Rockabilly. Can you find Asian guys who are into the Hip Hop culture? Of course. But you can also find guys of almost every race who are into it. Just like you can find all shades of people who are into a lot of different things. No big deal.

  104. Again, Hollywood elites don’t care about Asian issues for a number of reasons, one being driven by profit, and another of condescension. They look down on Asians.

    Constance Wu is just another idiot among other Asian idiots to prove their point.

  105. And for those Angry Asian Men who are upset about Hollywood, nothing will change, until strong arm exertion from Asians come about. That’s it. No circle jerk will change anything.

  106. Old Yeller, you’ve given Kyrie ideas. Now he’s going to think “Mayonnaise DOES go well with cheese”

  107. Chr is a typical closeted WM parents’ basement dwelling loser: ragging on AM genitals while fantasizing about BMs.

  108. Byron, it’s good to see you keeping up this blog. At times I feared you would stop blogging and the one corner of inter-space where its safe to talk subversive stuff would cease to be.

    It’s been a long while I’ve last been here. I see some things have not changed. But I’ve changed. I’ve learned to let a lot of this shit go. A lot of psychic damage still remains, but I’m trying to channel it toward positive ends.

    I want to talk about kids too. Not in the least because I’m a father also and my 3 year old son is the most important thing in the world to me.

    There’s a lot of shit that I cannot even share with my wife. But you all would know and get it. Because we talk and rant and agonize over it all the time.

    I’m the kind of person who wants nay needs to believe that stuff happens for a reason, that there could be a meaning behind it all. Why did I (and the rest of us) as a young man have go through what I went through and experience the things that we did? Stuff that stills lingers, hurts even as we try to evolve and put it behind us, shit that just might plain haunt us for the rest of our lives? For myself, I look at my son and see the reason. I want to raise my son in such a way that he will not endure what we went through. I believe my past experiences has made me into a better father that I would have been otherwise and especially more so because it is a boy. I will have to raise my son and teach him what it means to be an Asian man in America and how to overcome the adversity. I don’t want him to necessarily obsess over race but I want him to understand that he gets no advantages, privilege or any kind of breaks whatsoever, that anything worthwhile will be solely from his own merit and hard work, and I want to somehow equip him with the emotional, intellectual and spiritual wherewithal to be that kind of man. And I would never have this kind of perspective, commitment, and understanding if I did not go through what I went through.

    Let us cease talking about Asian-American feminist activists and their questionable choices. Because they are dinosaurs. Let us discuss how we will raise the next generation. I don’t know about you, Byron but in my circle of Asian-American married couples who have children, majority of them have boys it seems. I’m dying for like-minded souls with whom I can discuss fatherhood, how to raise sons, what it means to be an Asian man in America, what it means to be a man period, how to raise them to be confident and comfortable in their own skins….and politics and philosophy and all the rest of it.

  109. Hey Kobu,

    Awesome to see you here! I was wondering if you’d ever come back. It’s really awesome that you’re here. Yes, I think every so often I think about saving my dollars by shutting this place down, but then something always happens that reminds me that it’s worth it. There aren’t many places like this on the net.

    I’m somewhat in the same boat as you. I had maybe a two year period where I had nothing new to say about IR and extreme liberalism and the damage they’ve caused Asian men (King probably remembers more than me). I think I’ve recently come back though because of Black Lives Matter and Donald Trump. Watching and following those two extremes has raised some questions in my head about what attracts people to the two different cultures.

    So two things I want to say:

    First, don’t go away just yet. I’ve got a post coming up early next week about cultural attraction. I’d like to at least hear your views on it. I don’t want to post it right now because my weekend will be busy, and I may not have time to see the conversation.

    Second, let’s definitely talk about kids! You’re the one who set the tone on masculinity a long time ago.

    Let’s talk about it in the next week or so, but I’ll share this: I think I’ve got a decent handle on Asian American masculinity, but my son (10 years old) doesn’t listen to me. Part of me is wondering why I bothered getting all this knowledge when I’m somehow unable to successfully share it! I mean, seriously, I thought we had this shit all mapped out! Maybe I have to talk about it too.

    Also, just FYI….yeah. Most of the Asian American guys I know have sons. I have no idea why that is.

  110. Your son is just ten years old… he hasn’t even reached puberty, and it is unknown if he is attracted to girls yet… I think you should just let him enjoy his childhood and innocence.

  111. asian feminists have gone from taking on white feminists causes to fighting for the right to date white/shun asian men without prejudice. Now asian feminist like Jenn is actively persuading the rest to outright hate on asian men. Your sons will be dealing with them and their converts in the future, they are not really dinosaurs.

  112. It’s not about boys and girls. It’s about masculinity. Fighting. Battle. Responsibility. The other stuff that boys need to learn to become men. I’ve never even spoken to him about girls.

  113. SHAF,

    While I agree that Asian American feminism (the movement, not the theory) foment hate, the more I think about it, the more I think that maybe it’s not the fault of the Asian American feminists. They’re a different culture. We as humans tend to gravitate towards the culture whose values we find most attractive. It’s much like the Trump movement and Black Lives Matter–they appeal to our worst instincts as human beings.

    And I while I think that Asian American feminism has continued to spread its warped message, I think they are dinosaurs in that they can’t evolve beyond the lowest form of emotion–rage. I’m more hopeful than I’ve been in a long time.

  114. “It’s not about boys and girls. It’s about masculinity. Fighting. Battle. Responsibility. The other stuff that boys need to learn to become men. I’ve never even spoken to him about girls.”

    Can masculinity be separated from sex? Not saying you should start talking to him about birds and bees. Anyway, from my readings of anthropology and culture most tribes require the boys to go into puberty first before even inducting them into adult masculinity. I think children need space to grow up.

    Much of what your son will learn about masculinity will already be learned from you, in your role as a father who’s present in his life. This really isn’t so much about theories and indoctrination I feel.

  115. This place makes me hate Chinese people. What the hell is wrong with you people?

  116. Question: For Asian American Male actors and advocates like Bruce Lee, Daniel Wu, Brian Tee, and many other men who are or were married outside of their race, would they be less credible to represent Asian Americans in Entertainment? Should we not trust them?

  117. @TrustIssues,

    Have any of your aforementioned AM actors actually spoken out about APIA media representation issues in racist ‘Murica?

    (While Bruce Lee called it out, he made his career and fortune in Hong Kong and became famous worldwide because of the Hong Kong media industry.)

    Also, why don’t you ask Philip why he censors dissenting opinions?

    http://www.yomyomf.com/yes-constance-wu-can-have-a-white-boyfriend-still-advocate-for-asian-americans/

  118. Wow. Did you seriously compare having a white boyfriend to buying a second home or a Hummer? Seriously?

    This is such a clear example of a “false equivalency.” It’s embarrassing that you don’t see that.

    When you are an environmentalist and you directly contribute to the degradation of the environment — for example, with the excessive smog emissions of a Hummer– that is quite hypocritical. It’s like if I were an animal rights advocate, and in my free time I ran a puppy mill. In both examples, your actions DIRECTLY contradict your political values. It is hypocritical.

    But, being a female Asian-American activist, and dating a white male, is NOT contradictory. Dating a white male does NOT mean that I, or any other Asian female in the same kind of relationship, harbor some secret deep seated resentment or hatred of Asian men. It does not somehow mean that I see Asian men as inferior than white men. It simply means one thing: that I fell in love with a white man. I have dated Asian men before. They were, mostly, kind to me and were good boyfriends and lovers. But ultimately, I fell in love with and married a white man.

    Your analogy comparing Asian female/white male relationships, to an environmentalist buying a Hummer, is so ludicrous it simply crosses the line into “moronic.”

  119. Yes. Eddie Huang, David Henry Hwang, Aziz Ansari, Kumail Nanjiani, and many others have called out the injustices for Asian Americans in media – men and women… and they’re all with non-Asians.

  120. coincidentally and ultimately, 90% of us asian female activists just happen to trip and fall on to the white cock.

  121. TrustIssues wrote:

    Yes. Eddie Huang, David Henry Hwang, Aziz Ansari, Kumail Nanjiani, and many others have called out the injustices for Asian Americans in media – men and women… and they’re all with non-Asians.

    When, where, how was this? The online Asian American media ought to do a better job at reporting these people then and not focus solely on Constance Wu! ^_^

    Also, just at a quick glance, their twitter accounts don’t seem to have the passion that Constance Wu is showing against racist ‘Murica media!

  122. Genie,

    But ultimately, I fell in love with and married a white man.

    Why do we hear this story again…and again…and again…and again? I’m sure you’ve heard this story too…many times. Why is it always this Asian female/White male combination? That’s what I was talking about when I said, “the environmentalists all drive Hummers.” It’s the norm, not the exception, in certain communities. There’s no use in pretending that these patterns don’t happen within a cultural context and history. That’s not how human civilizations work.

    So let’s get past the standard talking points: there’s nothing inherently wrong with driving a Hummer, even if you’re an environmentalist. Sure, it degrades the environment, but so does breathing. What if you drive a Hummer, but you only drive it once a week for a five minute commute that’s goes up a 60% incline which your average sedan might not be able to climb? If so, it might be a better option, AND you’d be emitting far less than your average Toyota Corolla driver who did an hour a day of driving.

    But if you drove a Hummer to your job at Greenpeace, and you were a leader at Greenpeace, you still might have trouble with your image, regardless of the reasons for your Hummer. Driving a Hummer just doesn’t fit the lifestyle of what an environmentalist preaches. If listeners can’t buy into your brand, you have a branding issue. You can’t blame them for your branding issue. The salesman can’t be blaming the prospects when the salesman can’t make sales because of what the salesman does in his personal life.

    I had a long conversation about this today with an Asian American feminist, and I think part of what people are missing is that these are not my rules. I personally don’t think it’s “moronic” for people to expect leaders to live the lifestyle that they’re preaching about, but my views on this are irrelevant. People want what people want. They used to say, “Don’t hate the playah, hate the game.” In this case, I’m not even the playah; I’m just telling you how the game works.

  123. Somehow, these ‘aren’t your rules’, and yet you are the one who articulates them as you disagree with the public activism of Asian American feminists BigWOWO.

    It’s more accurate to suggest that you, and many, many others (regardless of race) support the view that community accepted race activism requires intraracial coupling. It’s amazing how popular this view remains among usually quiet elements within the Black community; I often undercut its support among certain disgruntled demographics.

    All this being said, the real disconnect is that your position that community accepted race activism requires intraracial coupling is not, nor has it ever been, law. It’s in no sense a rule under which activists of color are judged. It’s just one of many opinions on the subject; the controversy that the never-ending IR debate generates within Asian American political circles suggests that this perspective simply doesn’t govern everyone’s behavior today.

    You’re more than welcome to reject any political perspectives you do not support, BigWOWO. Everyone is. But to dismiss Asian American feminists out of hand simply because some of them engage personal relationships you find incompatible with their activism simply leaves you marginalized. If you believe your views are correct, existing on the margins as a lone voice in exile is not helpful.

  124. Eddie Huang wrote a book about growing up Chinese and traveling to Asia and the racism that affects Asian Americans – men and women. He also described falling in love with his girlfriend in the book. He also did a panel discussion with Constance Wu about it.

    David Henry Hwang wrote screenplays displaying Asian men and women. This is his contribution to Asians in the arts. He does a lot of stories for the Asian male and female.

    Aziz Ansari produced his show which showcases the problems for Asians in the media. He openly talks about the problem with the sexualization of women and lack of roles for Asians. His show is up for several Emmys.

    Kumail Nanjiani was part of the #MyAsianStory and openly defends Asians in the media for men and women on his Twitter. His tweets have gained traction and were openly appreciated.

    Media advertised it, but no one actively cared because in society and for many Asian men, the main problem seems to focus on the relationship for Asian women rather than Asian men. No one bothers to find out who the Asian men who protest for Asian men and women, but when it comes to Asian women, it suddenly matters.

  125. Media advertised it, but no one actively cared because in society and for many Asian men, the main problem seems to focus on the relationship for Asian women rather than Asian men. No one bothers to find out who the Asian men who protest for Asian men and women, but when it comes to Asian women, it suddenly matters.

    I agree, in general Asian women get more attention from mainstream media and audience than Asian men are. Add to the fact that Constance is a celebrity, her celebrity status simply draws more attention from people, any Asian man cannot do that even if he cried out at the top of his lungs or tweeted thousands of messages, still no one listens to him.

    Any activism should always thrive to include celebrities, it would reach out to a wider audience. Like that Yulin dog eating festival in China where Matt Damon, Kate Mara, Joaquin Phoenix, and Alicia Silverstone came out to protest that reached worldwide attention.

    Using famous people is the best way for activism to be effective. Our lone voices will never be heard, no matter how loud we scream.

  126. TrustIssues wrote:

    Media advertised it, but no one actively cared because in society and for many Asian men, the main problem seems to focus on the relationship for Asian women rather than Asian men. No one bothers to find out who the Asian men who protest for Asian men and women, but when it comes to Asian women, it suddenly matters.

    Thank you! You fell for the trap right on cue. Exactly what you wrote and you don’t recognize the self-contradiction of what you wrote in terms of the media giving more attention to the AF celebrities and only the AF celebrities when there are ostensibly no AM ones given attention/credit? Aziz Ansari is up for Emmys and the white media establishment gives him no mention, let alone who he’s dating that you’re not mentioning either.

    It’s precisely the racist US media machine goes out of its way to promote AF voices and AF/WM relationships that your own loaded “question” should answer itself as to why AM hypergamy is not as “frowned upon” much.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/aznidentity/comments/4z4doz/shower_thought_why_asianamerican_sub_kinda_does/

    The other reddit is like Jenn Fang and Mr. James Lamb-Fang’s happy meals “safe place” where censorship and banishment runs rampant. For these SJWs clamoring to be seen as Americans, they sure love to go against the most basic idea of Americanism: freedom of speech.

    http://www.yomyomf.com/yes-constance-wu-can-have-a-white-boyfriend-still-advocate-for-asian-americans/

    But this whole “debate” is stale and insipid and pointless altogether and feels like we’re stuck in the same old tired time-loop from 2000 over and over…

  127. @NightTown,

    Any activism should always thrive to include celebrities, it would reach out to a wider audience. Like that Yulin dog eating festival in China where Matt Damon, Kate Mara, Joaquin Phoenix, and Alicia Silverstone came out to protest that reached worldwide attention.

    You do realize that in Switzerland and other EU countries (and in the US in colonial days), they ate cats and dogs, right? And they still eat horses in France and whale and dolphins in Norway and Finland.

    Is your news source only limited to the US media propaganda that if there are no white celebrities complaining about barbaric EU meat eating practices you won’t condemn them and only against Asians?

  128. You’re going off track, I wasn’t talking about the dog eating stance because my stance is on the same side as yours. It’s definitely BS that they only targeted the Chinese and Asians.

    I brought up the Yulin protest to prove that using celebrities in activism is the most effective way to get results, reaching out to a wider audience.

    I want to bring up another scenario, most people hate Donald Trump’s politics, but he’s the most effective candidate to win the GOP party because of his celebrity status. He was popular even before he ran for the GOP nomination.

    In the future, I hope Jeremy Lin will be an activist representing Asian Americans and Asian men. His celebrity status is a big plus, most people listen to him, doesn’t matter if he marries outside of race.

  129. If it doesn’t matter if Jeremy Lin dates/ marries outside the race, then it shouldn’t matter if Constance Wu or any Asian American woman does as well. That’s just equality.

  130. foucault says none of us are truly “free.” it’s an illusion. so why is a relationship based on “respect” versus “stereotypes” the defining point between “progressive” and “regressive.” both are are as progressive or regressive as the other in that both possess some agency on the part of the practitioners (i.e., the members of the couple). none are ENTIRELY free from SOME freedom in a system/structure that largely shapes how they will lead their lives – not unlike a maze that a mouse finds itself in. it can move wherever it wants but the maze is there. so just because asian women and white men (or even the opposite: asian men/white women) “choose” each other based on “good” (not bad, i.e,. “racist”) reasons… we still fall into the trap that we have more “freedom” than we think. we’re still in the maze of white, heterosexist neocolonial patriarchy. some might disagree with my characterization of the “maze,” but most “progressives” wouldn’t. can we at least agree on this? the goal should be to recognize and critique the structure as well as how UNfree we really are, regardless of our good intentions. AFWM is merely an EFFECT of this current maze: http://rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/product/Racing-Romance,3694.aspx

  131. NightTown wrote:

    I want to bring up another scenario, most people hate Donald Trump’s politics, but he’s the most effective candidate to win the GOP party because of his celebrity status. He was popular even before he ran for the GOP nomination.

    See, this is where I question “certain people’s” critical reading/writing/comprehension skillz…

    Obviously “most people” doesn’t include the GOP or else he wouldn’t been nominated. The fact the media likes to hype up the controversy for viewer-ship numbers and ad dollars should be obvious.

    This Constance Wu thing is just riding on the Oscars and Ghost in the Shell/Dr.Strange/Aloha/etc “coattails” because obviously Asian Americans are really active online because of the dearth of offline mainstream publicity…

  132. Snoopy Jenkins the equivocator wrote:

    That’s just equality.

    Yet you have no problems going to crazy lengths to justify why there should be “affirmative discrimination” practices for your URM because you constantly complain there’s no such thing as “equality” for school admissions.

    But now it’s against your racist politics you make the laughable statement of “equality” when you know for fact that reality in USofA is anything BUT equal for AMs against AFs. Tons of studies have already shown this and I’m not about to get into another “anecdotal” discussion where you distort reality and spin doctor the facts.

    Hypocrisy is your other middle name!

  133. Pingback: Hearts, not minds | bigWOWO

  134. aardvark

    “Most people” voted for celebrities like Ronald Reagan, Jesse Ventura of Minnesota, and Arnold Schwarzenegger. There’s a famous Asian guy who’s going into politics after his professional athletic days are over, his name is Manny Pacquiao.

    The fact that the media loves to hype up controversies for viewership numbers and ad dollars is exactly why famous people like Manny Pacquiao, Jeremy Lin, Arthur Chu, Eddie Huang, and Bruce Lee became politicians and activists. They know the game and they took full advantage of it. I’m not saying the game is right, it’s actually shaddy, but to win the game we have to play by the game.

    The Oscars did not address whitewashing of Asian characters, they only addressed the White/Black paradigm of the Awards not being diversified. They made reforms for next year, the voters will be diversified, but the award itself will still based on MERIT, which means the best movies and the best actors will still be awarded to whites. It’s going to take a very long time for an Asian descent to win the Best Actor/Actress award.

    As for Ghost in the Shell/Dr.Strange/Aloha/etc, it was mostly Asian SJWs including Asian females who were very vocal and voiced out their indignation to disavow. Constance took it to another level where people never heard of the whitewash issue before, she reached a wider audience, the mainstream level.

    The point being, the celebrity status brings in extra votes, 10% to 15% more extra supportive votes due to the wider audience reach.

  135. Regular people who watch Constance Wu on television don’t automatically know or think she’s with a white guy. They see Jessica Huang on television. When Constance Wu tweets about the injustices in Asian Americans in entertainment, there is no mention of her boyfriend or sexual preference. It’s only the people who sought it out that truly care about who she is with.

    When the Asian men like Aziz Ansari and Eddie Huang who flaunt their partners, no one cares. Because then Asian men are recognized for the work they have done… and not who they are with.

    And that is the problem.

  136. TrustIssues wrote:

    When the Asian men like Aziz Ansari and Eddie Huang who flaunt their partners, no one cares. Because then Asian men are recognized for the work they have done… and not who they are with.

    And that is the problem.

    See, you wrote above that AM get no media attention and no respect (as much) comparatively to the AF celebrities, so now it’s sliding towards James Lamb turf that you’re saying everything is equal?

    Like what I wrote to Snoopy Jenkins above: you’re not looking at even playing fields to start with. The racist US media constantly churns out AF/WM media images and promotes it.

    And while it should be the case that nobody cares who “the leaders” are dating/mating with in their private lives in an IDEAL world, the fact remains in this post-colonial world there are gender issues that you’re flat outright ignoring and is using hypothetical level playing fields that don’t exist.

    And I agree that who Constance Wu is dating should have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on her message, but keep in mind that she only wanted to speak out for AFs initially, but Great Wall was just too controversial to ignore and she lumped “Asians” together. Therefore, in that sense you can’t deny that the personal isn’t political because even in global politics the private lives of politicians are up for examination…

  137. NightTown wrote:

    They made reforms for next year, the voters will be diversified, but the award itself will still based on MERIT, which means the best movies and the best actors will still be awarded to whites. It’s going to take a very long time for an Asian descent to win the Best Actor/Actress award.

    You think the Oscars is anything even remotely about “merit” then I got several bridges in Dubai to sell you! ^_^

    An Le won the best director, but he doesn’t seem to be very interested in pro-Asian American movies anymore…

    As for Ghost in the Shell/Dr.Strange/Aloha/etc, it was mostly Asian SJWs including Asian females who were very vocal and voiced out their indignation to disavow. Constance took it to another level where people never heard of the whitewash issue before, she reached a wider audience, the mainstream level.

    You need to back this up with EVIDENCE. I think the outrage was pretty much equal from all quarters online. Maybe only yourself is shielded within the SJW bubble and want to give them sole credit, but the outrage was pretty much universal.

    Which “begs the question:” why aren’t your SJWs going after #ToxicWhiteHyperMasculinity that creates such racist portrayals in the first place?

    And as far celebrity endorsements go: precisely because Constance Wu is the one in the limelight that there’s more “criticism” against her personal life that’s unwarranted. But that’s what she gets for constantly trying to stay in the limelight – this is no different than ANY celebrity of ANY ethnic background.

  138. Let’s be honest… Aziz is huge. They get lots of attention for their shows and their message. They get the GOOD kind of media attention for their shows and their efforts in entertainment… they don’t get the media attention regarding their love lives.

    When it comes to Constance Wu. She isn’t even in the tabloids with her boyfriend. She isn’t flaunting her personal life. But, there are people – mainly people who care about her love life – who will sought it out and call it out versus the media that never showcases her relationship at all – no People, no US Weekly… only stories about her are showcased. It’s only the audiences here who look for it and argue about it. I haven’t seen any negative posts or long messages about Aziz or Eddie Huang about them advocating for Asian Americans and yet dating a white person. It’s only because people sought this information out regarding Constance. And it’s not even from the media who are promoting WMAF… it’s regular people who just wanted to know and criticize her for her life choices.

    We all know the playing field for the tiring conversation about interracial dating is tiring, but also unfair for Asian men because of media exposure and stereotypes. Yes, images and leading man material in Hollywood and media needs to change asap… but criticizing and rejecting an Asian woman who has some clout in the media is not going to help.

    People seem to think Constance’s message is focused on Asian MEN (or lack of), but it’s for Asians in the entertainment industry because she is an Asian actress in the entertainment industry. She’s not advocating civil duties change, personal change, etc.She’s calling out the racism from The Great Wall. She’s calling the movie out for having another white guy save China and promoting POCs – which include Asians – not needing a white savior in another movie. If she had started a movement about “Only Dating Asian Men”, then yes, I’d agree she’d be a hypocrite if she’s never dated one before or never wanted to. But her movement is to call out racism and to advocate more Asians in media – including her project about the Chinese Exclusion Act.

  139. TrustIssues If she had started a movement about “Only Dating Asian Men”, then yes, I’d agree she’d be a hypocrite if she’s never dated one before or never wanted to.

    You know what? When I first read her rant, I mistakenly visualized her complaining about hollywood making up too many scenes where the nerdy white boy gets the asian girl — that was before I became aware of her only going out with white guys.

    Here is the manually written snippet (typing errors possible):
    Well excuse me for caring about images that little girls see, and what that implies to them about their limitations or possibilities. If you know a kid, you should care too. Because we WERE those kids. Why do you think it was so nice to see a nerdy white kid have a girl fall in love with him? Because you WERE that nerdy white kid who felt unloved. And seeing pictures of it in Hollywood’s stories made it feel possible.

  140. aardvark

    Evidence is that “Ghost in the Shell/Dr.Strange/Aloha/etc” are social justice issues, any racism issues are social justice issues. Asian Americans outraged about these issues are SJWs, of course you don’t like the “SJWs” label so you redefined it and rejected it. You and I talked about the same people, the same Asian Americans who outraged about social justice, the difference between you and I is you don’t like the “SJW” label.

    Ang Lee won 2 Oscars for Best Director. He was one of the 25 Asian American celebrities who sent a letter to the academy leaders objecting the jokes mocking Asians. The letter criticized the “tasteless and offensive skits” during the ceremony which forced the academy leaders to apologize and appointed many Asian American celebs into the voting panel for next year.

    I’m not sure if Ang Lee was one of the Asian members invited, but among the new PoC invited to the voting panel for next year is Latina Michelle Rodriguez. Michelle said she and the panel will continue to keep the awards merit based, so you know what that means, MERIT = WHITES. I’m just the messenger stating facts, so don’t slay me. lol

  141. Snoopy,

    Sorry for not seeing your post. I was too busy defending myself on social media yesterday and today. I’m sure you must know about that.

    It’s more accurate to suggest that you, and many, many others (regardless of race) support the view that community accepted race activism requires intraracial coupling.

    BINGO. Yes, it requires intraracial coupling. Absolutely. It doesn’t mean that everyone needs to marry intraracially, but if no one marries intraracially, then Houston, we have a problem. Actually, that’s the problem we have right now. It hovers somewhere around 0% among “activists.”

    I said more about it in my new thread. The point is the messaging. It’s just very hard to say Asian is just as good as white or black if it isn’t good enough for you personally. If you’re a hardcore extremist, you can overlook the contradiction. If you’re not an extremist, it’s hard to get on board.

  142. Mild/moderate liberals overlook the contradictions. The hardcore extremist liberals have a harder time with interracial relationships. They are the polar opposite of the white nationalists, right wing extremists are against interracial relationships too.

  143. I’ve realized something in the past couple of days. Whereas normal people try to buy into the story, hardcore extremist SJW’s are in it for the fight. SJW’s might even prefer that their female celebrities date White guys exclusively–it gives them more to fight over (“sexism!”) They don’t seem to care about the image, the story, or the aesthetics of whatever they’re seeing. Instead, their minds focus on how they can crybully, intimidate, and threaten people into submission. I’m willing to bet that if we ever had a Asian female celebrity who wasn’t part of the Asian Female Celebrity Club, we might even get the SJW’s complaining about how the celebrity was getting more “buy-in” because men were being “sexist” over her dating choices.

  144. Snoopy wrote:

    If it doesn’t matter if Jeremy Lin dates/ marries outside the race, then it shouldn’t matter if Constance Wu or any Asian American woman does as well. That’s just equality.

    So…all lives matter?

  145. Byron,

    I’m in complete agreement with you on almost everything regarding Asian American feminists. But I have to say that this IR issue is a losing argument for Asian American men. I understand your points and sympathize with AMs. But as a woman and a spectator, I don’t think it is a good strategy for AMs to attack AFs for their dating choice no matter what. It’s a low and lose-lose argument.

  146. Oh, I agree, ChineseMom. I don’t believe in attacking either. I think everyone should date whomever they want for whatever reason. Maybe I’m just not articulating it in a proper way.

    My point was just to point out the “why” of the question. Over the past couple of days, my liberal sphere has been in a tizzy over why people are discussing Constance Wu’s race or dating preferences. There have been cries of “sexist” and “you don’t control my body” and “I can date whomever I want” and “what can we do to fight this sexism?”

    I agree with not attacking people. I’m just saying that almost everything in life makes sense. If virtually 100% of Asian American feminists and celebrities date White, there’s going to be a limit on how much excitement the movement can build among regular Asian American people. I’m not hating the player; I’m just talking about the game.

    Maybe I should sit back and listen. I think society will take care of itself (it already has), but how do you think one should respond to the social justice warriors on a topic like this?

  147. I guess there’s a bit more here. I’m tired of getting slammed for “sexism” when the male response to this news is exactly how these same Asian women would also react, were the roles reversed.

    Case in point, Tokyo Japan. Because of akogare, it’s hard to get male attention if you’re a White woman in Tokyo. All the White dudes go after Japanese women, and all the Japanese dudes do the same. White women in Tokyo often are not happy people because of the social imbalance. I can’t see these Asian feminists and social justice warriors being above that. Even right now, every little slight makes them go crazy. What would happen if their problems were real (or at least more real than what they usually complain about)?

  148. ChineseMom,

    Just to be clear–I wasn’t saying that you were slamming me for sexism. It’s the SJW’s. Again. As always.

  149. Byron,

    I think it is okay to use IR disparity to argue that Asian men suffer more than Asian women in this country, to make people understand the challenges that Asian men have to face and refute Jenn’s points. But strategy-wise, I think it is a losing argument to discredit Constance Wu or any other AF who dates WM, even though I agree with your point.

  150. Black women are in a similar situation as Asian men in this country. They suffer more, but do better than Black men. We don’t see their activists openly criticize Black men much for this. Would you view Black women or Black race the same if their leaders or activists make the dating disparity an issue?

  151. Thanks, ChineseMom. I think this discussion just happened to catch me at an awkward time, right after I began to question the idea of falling in love with or hating cultures.

    I think the difference with black social activism is that very few black men in leadership positions marry white women. Sure, I think Frederick Douglas may have done so. But then you have Martin, Malcolm, Farakhan, Muhammed, Jackson, Garvey, Abernathy, etc. It’s not that common. For Asians, it’s exactly the opposite. Actually, it’s more than opposite–it’s hard to see the Community Club represented at all.

    So I agree with you. Strategy-wise, it’s probably better to focus on something else. It’s just vexing that the people in charge, i.e. the Far Left, can’t see what’s obvious to everyone else, that people have trouble following something which poses too much of a contradiction.

  152. Byron,

    I don’t think there is a recognized leader in Asian Americans community, even in sense of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, not to mention Martin and Malcolm. There may be some leaders in individual Asian immigrant communities, few of them are out married.

    I don’t consider actors, actress or athletes are leaders no matter how famous they are, they are just the entertainers, unless they lead on something. Asian American Activists on the far left like Jenn aren’t leaders, they are in charge of nothing. They have no roots or bases. In my opinion, they are just the puppy dogs for the White liberal media. When White liberal media needs Asian faces for their agenda, people like Jenn provide it. On the other hand, the Asian activists have to go to extreme to be picked as puppy dogs. People like you or Ben will never be accepted.

    I understand your frustration. I was very frustrated when we Chinese immigrants were misrepresented in the media by people like Jenn during our fighting against SCA5 or our supporting for officer Liang, and I have got used to the Western media’s misrepresentation and demonization of China and Chinese government. This is the consequence when we don’t have any power in the media or when we are not good at “propaganda”. I don’t blame them much, this is our fault.

  153. @chinesemom
    I agree with everything you said. I would like to add that IMO, Jenn and her blog doesn’t really bother me that much – it has the look and feel of a personal blog. Those tools at 18MillionRising (of which Jenn is a member) on the other hand are really beginning to annoy the hell out of me. They use the number 18 million but it is pretty obvious to me none of them have any connections to normal everyday asian-americans in real life. They have no feel for the recent immigrants that organized on behalf of Liang and obviously they have no feel for the average asian-american of the professional class who were against SCA-5. For a group that claims to represent all asian americans, they don’t seem to have a clue. Period. From my POV they are just a bunch of wannabe white-liberals.

  154. ChineseMom,

    Good point. I was thinking more of the “media leaders,” the people who write articles and report the news. But I think that’s probably different too. Someone who just shares an opinion, I think, may not really be a leader in that they’re not strongly advocating for a position. David Brooks, for example, is in my opinion America’s best columnist, but I don’t know that I’d call him a leader.

    Speaking of the “media leaders” who misrepresented you, see my comment to you here. I think one thing I might add is that Chinese America is really not all one culture. As you saw during that SCA5 debate, there are Chinese Americans who look down on you for being an immigrant and will do everything in their power to take away your voice. These people often don’t speak Chinese because they see it as a sexist language–after all, that’s what they were taught while they were reading The Woman Warrior. That is not my culture; I have always been interested in where I came from. But that’s not the case with everyone, as you saw from the treatment you got.

    mmjames:

    Haha! You nailed it. That 18 Million Rising thing was always off–although it sounds like a really big impressive number. Most Asian Americans–actually, most normal, everyday people–are not as liberal as 18 Million Rising, which is far far left. If all Asian Americans were that far left, we’d be dead in less than a generation. They’ve coopted the number.

  155. mmjames,

    That is why I don’t think people at 18MillionRising will accomplish anything besides being the tools. On the other hand, if we normal Asian Americans can’t be organized and make our voice be heard, then we have to accept the consequence of letting them to represent us in mainstream English media.

  156. So there’s lots of erroneous information throughout this thread, but on 18MR: to consider this organization problematic because you disagree with their politics is completely justified. But they aren’t anyone’s tools. They are a left-of-center nonprofit that advocates for a left-of-center population.

    Lest we forget, most Asian Americans generally and most Chinese Americans specifically live on the coasts, in and around urban centers in California and New York. Plenty live and thrive in other western and eastern states (Virginia, Oregon, and Washington come to mind.) The point is that Asian Americans reside in the bluest states in the Union, more often than not. To assume that this has no impact on their politics, to consider this population geography mere coincidence, and to suggest that groups like 18MR are too leftist to represent an Asian American mainstream is not accurate.

    As I’ve said for a while now, no politically active minority group enforces a rule that community accepted race activism requires intraracial coupling. When BigWOWO lists famous Black male social activists, he should recall that during most of Black history, legal and social obstacles prevented Black men from engaging sexual relationships with non-Black people. It’s not as if those Black men married Black women during eras where other marital choices were commonplace.

    The argument bandied about by BigWOWO and others suggests that something about the race activism of members of interracial relationships becomes suspect or tainted or unusable in the eyes of the minority group by the relationship itself. Yet that taint is never directly defined. It’s ethereal; we never need directly suggest what foul element has been introduced into the race activists’ constitution to make her activism newly problematized by her relationship, just that ‘people won’t accept it’.

    Well, no one has to. No one is under any obligation to read Reappropriate, to support 18MR, or to stop supporting alt-right culture arguments. But make no mistake: the race conservatism popular in this space cannot claim identification with an Asian American mainstream. So when you shun those with whom you disagree, when you label them SJW’s and liberals, please understand that while you’re hating, they win the argument with millions of your fellow travelers. The conservatism you preach just isn’t relevant to the daily lives and struggles of most Asian Americans.

    People didn’t respond to Constance Wu with skeptical side eye, they applauded her speaking out. Only the Asian American alt-right (mainly disgruntled redditors, outside of this space) did anyone dismiss Ms. Wu as a problem because of her relationship. For everyone else, that argument is bizarre. For all those other Asian Americans, blogs like Reappropriate emerge as where people go for insightful arguments about what it means to be Asian American, without reference to White people.

    So believe what you want. No one is stopping you. But the argument against interracial relationships for community accepted race activists is neither reasonable nor persuasive. It’s certainly not mainstream.

  157. Snoopy,

    You seem forget that 70% Asian Americans are immigrants. With Jenn and 18MR’s anti- Asian-immigrants mentality and attitude, you really believe that they can have any impact beside being used as tools?

  158. ChineseMom, no one has forgotten the heavy immigrant presence among Asian Americans. But to suggest that blogs like Reappropriate or nonprofits like 18MR express any anti-immigrant perspectives stand at odds with the facts. It’s an absurdity you present without any supporting evidence whatsoever.

  159. Id argue, both messages by any agent will have little to no political impact on mainstream discourse and little influence where it counts. While i dont agree with 18m etc.. I dont see any point in wasting time and energy to oppose them perhaps it may accomplish something and a better understanding will come down the line at some point in time but even that is an overly optimistic projection.

    Activism isnt so much the key imo as much as breaking down the bamboo ceiling and having Asian Americans in power with an iota of social awareness and integrity. The former and latter unfortunately only exist in an ideal world.

  160. Snoopy: to suggest that groups like 18MR are too leftist to represent an Asian American mainstream is not accurate.

    18MR got their heads handed to them in California (bluest of blue states) during SCA-5 and now AB1726 (by almost an order of magnitude petition-wise). Doesn’t look like they are doing such a good job repping mainstream asian americans.

  161. 18MR got their heads handed to them in California (bluest of blue states) during SCA-5 and now AB1726 (by almost an order of magnitude petition-wise). Doesn’t look like they are doing such a good job repping mainstream asian americans. — Mmjames

    Without question, 18MR’s faced challenges from the Chinese American right in California. But that conservative faction, typified by the Silicon Valley Chinese Association, only proved effective in convincing Californian lawmakers that they could expect boisterous crowds in public against sensible legislation, a tactic borrowed from the Tea Party. In no sense did these people convince anyone that wasn’t already first or second generation Chinese American that their positions where just, virtuous, sensible, or sound.

    In contrast, 18MR and like groups have the challenge of exciting a mostly non-political Asian American majority on issues like data disaggregation, a difficult process issue in the best of times.

    So no mmjames, your charge that 18MR somehow doesn’t represent the Asian American mainstream appears at odds with the facts. If anything, the dynamic is similar to how gun control advocates represent the vast majority of Americans who support moderate gun control legislation (like background checks and child safety locks and straw purchase bans) and still lose political battles against the single-issue voters represented by the well-financed National Rifle Association.

  162. In no sense did these people convince anyone that wasn’t already first or second generation Chinese American that their positions where just, virtuous, sensible, or sound.

    Umm Snoopy, the first gens account for 70-75% of the AA population. Of the remaining 25-30%, I would guess that the bulk would be 2nd gen as opposed to 3rd gen or higher. The only 3rd gens that I’ve talked to are just entering university. Regardless, 18MR is only fighting for the hearts and minds of 20% of the population at best. The vast majority under gen3 has already spoken and gave 18MR the big thumbs down (who are already left of center BTW). THERE IS NO SILENT MAJORITY. Face it!

  163. What the fuck…. akogare makes white chicks feel ignored??? Why did I not learn this? Why am I not in Japan right now???

    I’d fill all their orifices with sperm til it blurts out their nostrils

    (This was a joke referencing sicko Japanese porn)

  164. mmjames:

    Byron is 4th gen. You stole a generation from me! 🙂 Snoopy goes back even further, which makes me wonder why he feels people like him need bonus points in the college admissions against people who just got off the plane. But I digress.

    By the way, I’ll respond to you about the 18m rising thing. James can read my response to you. You see these far lefties always talk about how the community is so apathetic. They never consider that maybe we’re “apathetic” because we’re just not buying what they’re sellin’.

    SJW: “Hey, let me make it harder for your kids to get into college, even though your kids are living on your waitress and busboy salary in a one bedroom apartment with three other families. We gotta do this…for diversity.”

    Chinese guy: “What the fuck?”

    SJW (to his friend): “This Chinaman doesn’t speak English. Damn immigrants! They must be cheatin’ on those SATs! Affirmative action!”

  165. Snoopy,

    “Challenges?” You lost SCA-5 because Asian Americans don’t support it, conservative OR liberal. People are shrugging over Constance Wu because they can’t get behind it. People are ignoring your culture’s vitriol against John Cho because they know he’s got a point. Lots of people, immigrants with little political power, gave the finger to Karthick Ramakrishnan and his bogus survey. How many times do you have to lose before you acknowledge that you’re losing? The people just ain’t drinking the Kool-Aid. They’re not buying what you’re selling.

    Not sure if you saw the America’s Next Top Model clip, but if not, you should check it out:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2016/08/hearts-not-minds/

    Tyra went off on that Asian American feminist (or at least I think she’s an Asian American feminist). Tyra and Jay Manuel set this girl straight, and there was no blowback from America. Why? It’s because that’s how normal people think. You can’t promote Burger King and only eat McDonald’s, even if Coke really does taste better. People might not protest or call you out on your McDonald’s diet, but they’re not going to get excited about Burger King while you’re scarfing down a Big Mac.

  166. Byron is 4th gen. You stole a generation from me! 🙂

    Sorry Byron, didn’t mean to sell you short. But with my wonky memory, it’s very likely that I would have made up for this mistake with another inaccurate generational quote in the future 🙂

    While we are on the general topic of Jenn’s blog and 18MR, I’d like to point out that I added one one more comment in Jenn’s blog that discusses the Liang/Ghurley accident. I pointed out that I believe that Jenn and organizations such as 18MR have an obligation to publicly apologize for maligning the folks who organized on behalf of Liang and who were right all along. We now know that Ilardi has totally escaped punishment for his accidental killing of an asian student and yet the asian progressives have stayed silent on this decision even though they have railed away at how ALL cops should be held accountable for their actions, intentional or otherwise. Though the progressive attacks were directed at Liang it is not obvious to me at all why Ilardi was concurrently spared. When the chinese immigrants defended Liang, the asian progressives attacked them. The overall picture from all this is that the desired outcome for asian progressives is for Liang to rot in jail while Ilardi should be freed unpunished, even though they F’ed up similarly. Unless the progressives apologize how could we mainstream asian americans see it any other way? Why shouldn’t we suspect that the next time push comes to shove when there is a racial incident involving asian americans (especially men) that the progressives wouldn’t eagerly back-stab us again? That is why those progressives should apologize or they will never be accepted as communities that represent us.

  167. I really had wanted to put the Liang case behind me but that one last post in Jenn’s blog on the topic kept eating away at me.

  168. It’ll be great if you get that apology. It’ll really help to make the message consistent. I think they should apologize, but only AFTER they thank you for helping them to eliminate what looks an awful lot like racial tribalism and Pin-The-Tail-on-the-Asian-Male.

  169. what looks an awful lot like racial tribalism and Pin-The-Tail-on-the-Asian-Male.
    Byron, as sad as that sounds, I’ll have to agree with you. Before I thought that this was only applicable to issues concerning dating/marriage but it looks more like these progresses really DO HATE asian men. Just the eagerness exhibited by the progressives when pummeling Liang contrasted to the hush,hush attitude adopted for Ilardi says it all. Gimme a break, if Liang were a woman or black, you know all this would have come down differently. With all these progressives marrying non-asian it really does look like that “the personal is the political” has truth and conflicts of interest is not always just appearance.

  170. I guess it’s technically not hate, although at some point it’s all the same. It’s not that they wish that Asian men were dead. But they don’t value our humanity. That’s what makes it so convenient. Need to push a feminist message? Asian men can take the fall! Too many police shootings? Hey, there’s Peter Liang! Need more “underrepresented minorities” in college? Let’s kick out Chang!

    I think if there were more Asian activists were married to Asian dudes, the problem would likely be less severe. This dehumanization comes out pretty easily since most don’t have close day-to-day contact with Asian men. I’m not saying that Asian feminists should go against their inclinations–people ought to date whom they date for whatever reason–but it also seems a bit naive to think that there’s no net effect from the trend.

  171. But they don’t value our humanity. That’s what makes it so convenient. Need to push a feminist message? Asian men can take the fall! Too many police shootings? Hey, there’s Peter Liang! Need more “underrepresented minorities” in college? Let’s kick out Chang!

    I think if there were more Asian activists were married to Asian dudes, the problem would likely be less severe. This dehumanization comes out pretty easily since most don’t have close day-to-day contact with Asian men. I’m not saying that Asian feminists should go against their inclinations–people ought to date whom they date for whatever reason–but it also seems a bit naive to think that there’s no net effect from the trend.

    The GAME IS EXTREME, most of us Asian guys are too moderate and we refuse to play the game so we lose. How is the GAME played?

    #1) By attention grabbing headlines through the media, politics, and activism

    #2) Non-Asian minority men are promoted in headline grabbing via victimology

    #3) Black & White men are heavily promoted in headline grabbing heroism, through movies and sports

    According to you, the severity of the problem stems from Asian activists not married to Asian dudes. Well, the answer is because AF activists play the game #1 of activism, so obviously they’re attracted to #2 victimization.

    Most females in general who are not in politics or activism are attracted to #3 heroism.

    Most Asian men don’t fight hard enough to play the extreme game to compete with Non-Asian men, Asian men prefer to stay within the moderate subcultures, therefore Asian men lose.

    To win Affirmative Action, it requires a lot of votes and supports, that can only be achieved by playing the extreme game of #1. Since Asian men are small in numbers and lack of support, they lose. AF activists don’t support Asian men because they’re attracted to #2 victimization, and Asian men are not victims.

    That’s the reality of the GAME, the Non-Asians play the game at an extreme level and they fight hard for everything they’ve got. That’s why nothing’s going to be given to Asian men for free, everything has to be fought for at an extreme level of the game. If Asian men choose to stay moderate and not fight hard for anything, Asian men lose.

    On a personal note I’m a moderate, I hate the game as much as you guys. Acting as a messenger, I stated facts to show the reality the game and described it in simplistic form.

  172. You know how you can beat the game? All you have to do is mobilize Asian Americans to swing to the Refuglicans, and also ensure that they enter university with enough knowledge to despise Leftists and Affirmative Action.

  173. I didn’t mention right wing or left wing partisan because Republicans play the same GAME too. GOP plays the headline grabbing game to their advantage just as much, they even utilize the racism card to their advantage, Trump is the biggest culprit of this, next is Ann Coulter, for AF activist from the right you got Michelle Malkin. Go read on any message boards or articles’ comment sections, you’ll notice that white republican supporters are always out in full force. Too often times, they’ll spin and utilize the victim card to White’s advantage. Their victim cards usually reject the white privilege card, their soliloquy include whites are victims of terrorism, whites are victims of immigration, they’re victims of genocide, whites are victims of college admissions affirmative action, etc, etc.

    America is the land of survival of the fittest, it’s a constant battle to atop the food chain, those that refuse to fight will remain at the bottom rung and wondering why girls don’t date them or losing out on AffirmAct. It’s very competitive to the Extreme and the game never had an even playing field, folks need to face this reality.

    I’m just reporting the facts here folks, so it’s pointless to knock on me. Hate the game, don’t hate the messengers.

  174. Hey NightTown,

    Thanks for your comment. I just linked your comment in my own comment to ChineseMom in the other thread.

    My problem with the activists’ “attention grabbing” thing is that whoever says the most outlandish thing gets the most attention. Like you said, it’s Trump. But people also grab attention when they say things that make no logical sense, such as the “math just don’t matter” claims that the Far Left makes on affirmative action. It’s easier to grab attention when there’s no substance in your debate. And that’s bad–when you’re divorced from reality, it’s incredibly hard to come up with practical solutions to any problem.

    I’m hoping that people eventually get tired of all the shenanigans. Then hopefully we can return to a world where things make sense.

  175. You are right and I agree, the extreme far left are not about substance. Like I said, it’s about who gets the most votes and supports that are winning and shaping reality, unfortunately. So for us “hoping” for the best is just a fantasy that will get no results, that’s why Asian men are losing. How Asian men need to face reality and deal with these shenanigans and misolinsanity is the practical solution.

  176. I just offered a practical solution: politically mobilize Asian Americans to swing to the Republicans.

    I know what some people would advocate though, after they’ve enlightened us about “the game”. They’d say we need to play it too. But that’s a fool’s errand. Do you think people like Jenn Fang and Phil Yu write that much tripe and drivel as a hobby? They’re making money from it. There is a flow of cash that makes all that effort worthwhile.

    So for someone to advocate that Asian American men “play” the same “game” would be utterly moronic, because there is no pool or political demographic to provide the support you would need to engage in what is essentially a propaganda war.

    Moreover that said advocate would be missing the forest for the trees: the propaganda is there to elicit unquestioning and unthinking support for bigger picture power plays and policy matters. I.e. who gets voted into office, who gets choice political appointments in high ranking public office.

    By bypassing these precious (lol) wars of symbolism altogether and concentrating entirely on swing mobilization, you will force the “progressives” to take your demands seriously. You can play a spoilers game for everything the Democrats want to achieve until they take you seriously.

    Now just another note: when was the last time Refuglican Guard mouthpieces singled out Asian American men for attack? You have noticed that for the last few years it has mostly come from the Left’s radical allies, haven’t you?

    Asian Americans can force the Republicans to take them seriously by continuously advocating for sound policies based on the center. The manipulators will attempt to force cleavages in such a relationship if you are successful, but the long game is that you must be politically credible in order to undercut the support base of the nitwits and the demagogues. Since the Left is the biggest source of griefing for Asian Americans now, since Leftist Asian Americans are just muppets who support Affirmative Action with no conscious thought, they should be the first and the prime target.

    Unless you show that you can take down morons and choose leadership that represents you, Asian Americans will never be taken seriously.

  177. I wasn’t specifically rejecting your proposed practical solution, I was showing the reality of the far right, they can be manipulatives and also play the same extreme game of shenanigans as the far left.

    When you proposed for Asian Americans to concentrate entirely on swing mobilization to the Republicans, that is what I was proposing as well just not in exact words and I didn’t specifically pinpoint to which party. Your “mobilization” is somewhat similar to what I was saying about Asian Americans need to get “the most votes and supports”. Without mobilization for the most votes and supports, no matter how sound-logical-sensible and full of substance your argument is, it will go unnoticed and get no results.

    Asian Americans can force the Republicans to take them seriously by continuously advocating for sound policies based on the center. The manipulators will attempt to force cleavages in such a relationship if you are successful, but the long game is that you must be politically credible in order to undercut the support base of the nitwits and the demagogues. Since the Left is the biggest source of griefing for Asian Americans now, since Leftist Asian Americans are just muppets who support Affirmative Action with no conscious thought, they should be the first and the prime target.

    This sounds interesting, can you elaborate some more? What exactly are the “sound policies” that you’re advocating? And how would you go about getting the prime target Leftist Asian Americans to get onboard to support our issues and interests?

    Now just another note: when was the last time Refuglican Guard mouthpieces singled out Asian American men for attack? You have noticed that for the last few years it has mostly come from the Left’s radical allies, haven’t you?

    Not exactly Asian American men, but they have repeatedly attacked Asian immigrants, specifically Asian women and Filipinos.

  178. The “Far Right” isn’t the Far Right. They are the Right using a hardcore following that cannot be persuaded, reasoned, threatened or bargained with in order to strengthen the bargaining power and position of the people whose interests they serve. Ditto the Left. So when you say the Far Right can be just as manipulative, what you really mean is that the Right can be “just as manipulative”, and extrapolating from that, they are just participating in a system that the “progressives” have adopted just as readily, perhaps because the progressives really have been infiltrated by communists and cultural marxists after all.

    You didn’t specify which party, because it did not occur to you that Asian American vote mobilisation must exert pressure on the highest and most elite levels of the political leadership, well beyond your numbers alone can achieve. Therefore the targets, be they for de-legitimization or for policy objectives, must be sustained and consistent. Asian Americans cannot vote based on conscience. They have to vote based on a Machiavellian application of pressure if that’s what it takes for Asian Americans to be taken seriously, instead of being the Left’s bait and sacrificial lambs like Peter Liang, Wing Chau and others were made to be. The current presidential elections are foregone, but smaller elections in the future will have ripple effects. For example, if you find out changes to electoral boundaries in one area will increase the Asian American voice that place, but this voice is dominated by Affirmative Action supporters and oppression Olympicians, then do everything you can to make sure their efforts are defeated. You must do everything you can to make the 25-45 yrs old age group of white “Liberals” and their lackeys that they can no longer take Asian Americans for granted as a captive polity. Everywhere that Far Left supporters and enablers campaign, they must lose and be hindered.

    The sound policies are for Asian Americans to decide, but I recommend actual frameworks for change instead of soundbyte and emotional campaigning that leads to no result such as “99%”, “Black Lives Matter” and “No justice no peace” which leads to psychos targeting police officers for murder. It’s big enough to be a separate topic of discussion.

    The political demographics of America will shift to “the Left” inevitably, and the Right knows this. They must look on in trepidation as they realise their own emotional and identity campaigns will become less effective than the Left’s, except that the Left’s moronic campaigns and propaganda will end up destroying American society and lives just as how British exceptionalism and Euro-contempt lay the groundwork for Brexit.

    By presenting the Right with broad cohesive organisation and a credible face, you will give them the opportunity to abandon the likes of Michelle Malkin and Sarah Palin, you will break the Left’s perceived stranglehold on racial inclusion thereby allowing the Right to reclaim the high road, you can select the leadership amongst them that you will back and make it clear you want things like an end to Affirmative Action and other race based and “privilege” based dogma legislation. Demand the same things from the Left and do everything you can to make sure the Far Left and their integrated media networks lose readership. They will attack you, but if you survive they will have to take your demands seriously.

  179. Voting for right wingers is like playing Russian Roulette with 50-50 loaded chambers. Sure, you might “win” but why would any sane person want to play in the first place?

    This election cycle is a total joke for rational moderates. And they say the elections in 3rd world countries are rigged.

  180. No, who said anything about voting for right wingers?

    We’re talking about policy: who’s locking Asian Americans in on emotional issues and identity politics, versus who’s actually giving them a fighting chance with policy that rewards common sense, community building and hard work.

    Do you think a victim complex alone achieves this? Does simpering about the white man like small leftist males do achieve this? Or maybe playing up threat and grievance? You’re a little shit, aardvark. As small in stature as your comments.

    Jenn Fang has been trying a wedge strategy of her own, talking about South East Asians being under-represented in higher education.

    I could talk to a thousand Hmong communities and get them to back the repeal of affirmative action, because I know who they are and what they fucking value.

    Only a fucking brainwashed fucking COMMIE Asian American will do what you’re doing and be satisfied with crumbs.

    It’s not a surprise James Lamb doesn’t even respond to your harangues. You are of no consequence. Everything you do advances his cause despite your own intentions.

    You are the perfect Asian cuckold, LMAO! You don’t even want it you’re not aware of it!

  181. Sengge Rinchen, is your mommy’s basement leaking stopped and you’re back online finally?

    Take your own advice about your and James Lamb’s stupidity: you can’t even form coherent topics like that racist Mr. Fang and yet you expect me to respond to your inane ramblings? Get a life!

    Jenn Fang has been trying a wedge strategy of her own, talking about South East Asians being under-represented in higher education.

    I find this point interesting, because nowhere has Ramakrishnan and the Fangs ever mentioned anything about South Asians (Indians) being “over-represented” on campuses, because that’s what the numbers would show.

    Yet, somehow it’s always the East Asians (especially Toxic Hyper-masculine ones) who are stealing seats from their URMs. And yet, how are ostensible nerds hyper-masculine needs some Fang-xplaining in another laughable racist rambling on reappropriate! ^_^

  182. Constance Wu just did a podcast where she talks about IR. She compares Asian men to hairy armpits. Fascinating. (Appropriately named) “So many White guys,” episode 9:

    http://www.wnyc.org/shows/whiteguys

    IR part starts at around 20 minutes.

    Two thoughts:

    1. Hairy armpits? It’s surprising what Asian women can say and not lose Asian feminist support. That said,

    2. I appreciate her honesty. Too often people will react with “But I love Asian men!” She didn’t do that, so for that she gets my respect.

  183. By the way, I hope people who practice common sense in their daily lives can hear the podcast and see that my original point still holds. If you think of the men of your race as being like hairy armpits, it makes SENSE that the men of your race (or the women of your race who love them) will be looking for a different champion of your cause. It’s not her fault–the media determined the race of men she’s attracted to–but at the same time, those environmentalists don’t want to be following someone who prefers Hummers.

  184. …Well excuse me for caring about images that little girls see, and what that implies to them about their limitations or possibilities. If you know a kid, you should care too. Because we WERE those kids. Why do you think it was so nice to see a nerdy white kid have a girl fall in love with him? Because you WERE that nerdy white kid who felt unloved. And seeing pictures of it in Hollywood’s stories made it feel possible. – Constance Wu (manually copied from her rant which was only an image file)

    I thought Constance made such as strong and “personal” statement when she include the above in her “The Great Wall” rant. But when she reflected on how the negative portrayal of asian man in the media may have impacted her present IR relationship, it was more of a — well it’s possible but it’s hard to know. IMO a definite softening on the stance when applied personally to herself.

  185. I passed out a few times listening to how inane the podcast interview is. So now that she made it public what her dating history/tastes are, is it open season on Constance Wu? lol

    Like I’ve said many times before and numerous other sensible people here have: her private life had no bearing on her position of pro-AF media images because it’s consistent with her message. But after Great Wall’s trailer came out and her twitter manifesto against Haolewood racism (which is awesome BTW) and her now unabashedly pro-Asian stance of both genders, her private dating life does come up when people have to ask: why does she fit into the countless patterns of neo-colonialism WM patriarchy of AF/WM that’s so prevalent in Haolewood propaganda and also general US society?

    I think I can also create miso-naming of things: “Fang-xplaining” – whereby Mr. James Lamb-Fang spins and distorts reality and ignore facts by labeling “inconvenient truths” anecdotal and play the race card and scream “you’re anti-black racist conservatives” and sexism and homophobia shaming in order to throw tantrums to achieve his own racial and political agendas.

    According to their SJW camp, Asiaphilia is seen as cutesy and not dangerous. They’ll promote this as progressive ‘Murican personal freedoms to free association:

    http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/films/

    But ignore these types of stories:

    http://www.king5.com/news/local/uw-community-grieves-mukilteo-shooting-victims/285601975
    http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/06/nyc-man-attacked-asian-women-for-rejecting-him.html
    http://bbczeitgeist.blogspot.com/2011/04/asian-fetish-asiaphilia.html

    According to the Fang-xplaining: it’s because of toxic hashtags that toxic hyper-masculine Asians included all sorts of domestic violence (that’s a leap of Fang-xplaining to wanton homicide and murders) whereby AMs are guilty because of Elliot Rodgers and Daniel Holtzclaw.

    The Ivy League schools must be proud that Ph.D’s spousing SJW positions where no data backed “social science” is spewing all over the internet.

  186. I listened. Didn’t hear her say anything insulting. She said she understood why Asian men felt this way about her relationship because the media emasculates them. She admits they have it hard not unlike what John Cho said.

    The hairy armpit thing was comparing to how Asian men are looked upon as bad like hairy armpits by society due to how they are shown. I got the feeling she admits that maybe that’s why she’s dating a white guy.

    Can you explain to me how she’s hating on Asian men in this podcast? I didn’t catch it.

  187. Talisdon the Fang-xplaining lackey wrote:

    Can you explain to me how she’s hating on Asian men in this podcast?

    A prime example of the James Lamb-Fang level of Strawman argument that there is. Quote anyone above that wrote Constance Wu hates on Asian men?

    Yourself admits she is adverse to AMs because of racist medias, and the perpetuating of stereotypes; so why is your overlord the Fangs keep denying there’s an over-representation and PERPETUATION of AF/WM neo-colonial brainwashing?

  188. Talisdon:
    Aight, so I’m a bit less angry than Aardvark, but let me jump in.

    NO ONE, from what I’ve read, is accusing Constance of hating on Asian men. In fact, I think I said that her honesty was admirable. What I did say was that it’s clear she finds Asian men less attractive–which is fine.

    But what that signifies does not change my original point, which is that people aren’t going to get excited when the rhetoric doesn’t match the lifestyle. Do you see the difference? Lots of people keep talking about Constance and her right to personal choice. I’m talking only about people and how they view it. It’s not about Constance, or at least it shouldn’t be about Constance. It’s about the people who follow Constance and why they’re reacting the way they are.

  189. CW can date whoever she wants. Just because she has a White™ boyfriend and just because she thinks demeaning AF’s w/ Mail-Order Bride TV show is OK as long as actress gets first billing and gets paid, DOESN’T DIMINISH her ability to be an activist and advocate for Asian interests. Her body is separate from her politics, and so is her Twitter.

  190. lol BRILLIANT! #StarringConstanceWu my Twitter is not my body is not my politics. #ToxicHyperMasculineAsiansForTruth

  191. Haha. Asian woman married to White man throws Asian American feminists under the bus for chasing White men.
    https://aestheticdistance.com/blog//dear-asian-women-im-calling-you-out-on-this-one

    Sure, distance yourself away from the most vulnerable WMAW pairings. You know, the ones with the Asian American feminist who claims to fight White supremacy but somehow almost always end up bedding Whites. I wonder how they would react? Throw others under the bus or double-down and claim the political is not the personal and that there is too much ” Misogylinity” within the Asian community.

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