Cultural attraction

Up until my twenties, I had known only two Asian American men who married black women. One was my granduncle who was half-black himself. He was my grand-uncle not by blood, but by the fact that he and my grandmother and granduncles had grown up together. Wayne Boc spoke Cantonese fluently and knew everything about Chinese culture. I’m too young to remember, but I think he may have kicked my ass in Chinese chess. The story was that his father had opened a laundry in the middle of a majority black area in New York and had fallen in love with a local African American woman. Think about that–Wayne Boc’s was my grandfather’s age, and my grandfather was born in 1924. His father married a black woman around the time my grandfather was born, and then Wayne Boc himself, who was my grandfather’s age, married a black woman. How revolutionary is that?

The other was an educator in the New York public schools who oversaw mostly majority-black schools. This man (I can’t remember his name) was my father’s generation. He grew up in Chinatown but had always been interested in African American culture. After getting his masters, he became a schoolteacher and a school principle, mostly in predominantly black areas. He mostly dated black women, and eventually he married a black woman.

When I learned several years back that some Asian American men wrote and performed hip hop music, I learned that many of these performers were also dating or married to black women.

Which makes sense. When we talk about IR and other interracial relations, we often understate the role of culture and instead see things as purely racial. Certainly racial prejudices, perpetuated by media and stereotypes, can help to encourage or discourage interracial relationships. If, for example, Asian women are seen as having an attraction to White guys, and if there is a community of Asian women that advocates for this attraction, it stands to reason that more White men will approach Asian women. Or if black men are seen as having large schlongs and an unquenchable addiction to white women, it might embolden white women who are into black guys.

But there’s a deeper issue that we don’t discuss enough, and it’s this: we don’t just fall in love with individuals; we fall in love with cultures. We fall in love with everything that comes with culture–a lifestyle, a way of seeing the world, a style of personal interaction, a history that goes way back beyond any one individual, possibly a different language. We instinctively (and correctly) assess a future where a spouse from that culture will bring more of that culture. In that context, we shouldn’t be surprised when Asian male hip hop artists fall in love with black women or when students of Arabic falls in love with people from the Middle East. We shouldn’t be surprised when American judo fighters fall in love with Japanese women or when American actors in China fall in love with Chinese women. We shouldn’t be surprised when upwardly mobile people of color who want to be a part of the Northeastern elite marry into The Club. If we recognize that people fall in love with cultures, it makes sense that they marry into cultures so that they can experience more of that culture. There are cultures we find attractive, as well as cultures we find less attractive. A lot of this depends on individual temperament. Not everyone likes Chinese culture, the same way not everyone likes hip hop.

Within cultures there are also subcultures: an extreme liberal black person comes from a radically different culture than, say, Herman Cain or Ben Carson. Among Asian Americans, Korean American culture is radically different from, say, Hong Kong American culture. Yes, Korean Americans were born into a different culture than Hong Kong Americans, but the way they interact within that culture is very different. When a Hong Kong American marries a Korean American, for example, both often experience some culture shock. Amy Tan, Maxine Hong Kingston, and David Henry Hwang belong to Asian American college liberal culture. Their views and lifestyles are different from the culture of, say, your average Chinese American stockbroker. Most Chinese American male stockbrokers probably hang out with Chinese American men in finance. Most of them are conservative. These cultures form on their own.

Even among people of similar ethnic backgrounds, new cultures form. Recently, someone suggested that I read a nonfiction book by a certain Asian male author. I had read essays by the author, essays in which he talks about how he never dated Asian women and or hung out with Asian people until later in life, and how he made these decisions by choice. In these essays, he spouted some incredibly (in my opinion) ignorant pronouncements about Asian American identity, which is unsurprising, given that he hasn’t spent much time with Asian Americans. For me, the lifestyle in which Asian Americans shun other Asian Americans, though I know of many who live it, is completely unattractive to me. Although I’m sure this author’s different perspective would have shown me a different way to view our culture, I decided to pass on the book. I have no doubt that this author’s success has come about in part because of his attraction to the culture that is most influential in the American publishing industry, as well as the industry’s attraction to him. The truth is that love goes both ways. People who are part of the culture that runs the publishing industry needs Asian Americans who love the “high” culture which exists outside of Asian America, and these Asian Americans need the culture that runs the publishing industry. There needs to be some reciprocal love to allow communication to go both ways.

So what is the point of this blog post?

The point of this post is that we can view ourselves as being individuals, but it makes sense to also view ourselves as being parts of a culture or cultures. Just as we have relationships with other individuals, we also have relationships with other cultures, and it helps to know where we come from. Sometimes we like cultures, sometimes we love them, sometimes we have only a passing acquaintance with them. We love cultures because we love the values they espouse or the worldview they perpetuate. They often become a part of who we are and how we feel about the world. Like a living person, they teach us. They change in relation to the actions of the individuals who comprise it, like living people, they evolve. It might even make sense to name those cultures. Perhaps by naming subcultures, we can have a better idea of where people stand in terms of values and views.

One more thing: We often see the excuse from people from different subcultures saying stuff like, “I don’t date Asian because I had bad experiences with my Asian girlfriend/boyfriend.” Critics point out that White mainstream people often have lots of problems with their White mainstream girlfriends/boyfriends and never turn against the culture. Many say that it’s because White-centric mainstream people may not see race when they’re dating within their race. This is correct, but it’s also correct among Asians who are part of an Asian-centric culture–they don’t see or blame race either. People who love a certain culture will rarely turn against that culture, no matter how bad an individual experience they have.

223 thoughts on “Cultural attraction

  1. Some people may fall in love with cultures; many do not. It’s clear the dynamic described above would ring true for many people. Not for me.

    Universalizing the experience of falling in love with a particular culture along with a person undercuts the strength of this argument. Clearly, everyone doesn’t experience that perspective. Culture very rarely explains individual action, and while those who appreciate particular cultures abound, it is also very common to have radically different experiences with particular cultures and specific communities.

  2. Snoopy,

    It’s true of you too.

    Think about your conversations here. Most of the people here do not share your…er…sympathy for certain causes. Check out Oshay Duke Jackson’s YouTube channel:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPXDoi-HrEE

    As you can see from his many videos, there are lots of people who share his views. Not surprisingly, given that your views are exactly the opposite of his, you did not fall in love with a woman who is from his sub-culture. Instead, you fell in love with an extreme liberal who posts stuff like this, and who has lots of friends who agree with this kind of racial tribalism.

    You fell in love with culture. It wouldn’t make sense if you hadn’t.

  3. Mr Fang the equivocator wrote:

    It’s clear the dynamic described above would ring true for many people. Not for me.

    LOL!!! No truer words have been spoken by your brand of racist agendas.

    At least you can be honest now.

  4. @bigWOWO,

    I think your latest IR “click bait” article is simply too ideological. You didn’t include anything about hypergamy and it’s very real effect in every culture too.

    As a counter-example, the 20th century had many US GIs who brought home their war brides from Asia. While poverty and hypergamy are the primary motivations for the women, the US GIs didn’t really care about the culture of the wives.

    Even Jenn Fang wrote one about the Korean woman who faced abduction charges because the US white husband couldn’t care less about Korean culture.

  5. And before we’re quick to dismiss Snoopy, it’s worth pointing out that his “culture,” i.e. liberal multiculturalism as practiced on college campuses, is quick to claim race-blindness and cultural equality. But it’s just not the case. If it were really race-blind, we’d also see Asian American feminists married to Asian dudes. Hey, we’d also see liberal Black women and White women married to Asian dudes. We’d also see them giving equal airtime to the plights of Asian dudes. But that’s not a part of that culture. It’s not Asian-dude centric or even Asian-dude equal.

    Once again, numbers are the extreme liberal’s greatest enemies.

    Aardark,

    I sided with the White husband in that case, as did the courts. It was clear that she was at fault, culture or not.

    These days, is it necessarily hypergamy? I agree that in the grand scheme of things, White cultures tend to be the most powerful in the U.S. But it’s arguable that even dating Asian men can bring advantages when we’re dealing with different subcultures. Marrying Black can bring one advantages too, depending on which subcultures we’re describing.

    Let’s take publishing for example. Certainly, if you’re Asian, it helps to marry White, whether you’re a man or woman. But while a White partner may open some doors, it probably closes others. Certainly if you’re an upwardly mobile writer, it probably opens the doors that are more important to you, but I think it’s undeniable that it closes other doors.

  6. Actually, no. It’s hard to argue that people fall in love with culture universally. It’s just not accurate, BigWOWO. Many, many people may find partners who share a particular culture they enjoy, but to suggest that everyone’s relationships can be defined in this manner ignores the particular circumstances and proclivities of the individuals involved.

    Further, what is to be gained from this sort of relationship analysis anyway? This voyeurism strikes me as odd. Lots of people enter relationships with people who are vastly different from themselves; that’s completely acceptable, and in no way comments on anyone’s culture at all.

    Lest we forget, no one is obligated to date people from the community or culture from which they matured. Vastly different people fall in love all the time. Or they don’t. Whatever. It’s really not important. So writing a whole blog post to suggest that everyone forms relationships with people from various cultures or subcultures they support does not persuade. I don’t deny that some people have this rich cultural experience, but I have not. Everyone’s backgrounds do not conform to this analysis, BigWOWO, so such broad claims fail.

    Further, this line of inquiry puts you in the needlessly offensive position of defining other people’s cultures for them, thye sort of old-school anthropological exercise designed only to obscure and silence people not invited to the conversation. You’ve no evidence to claim that ‘liberal multiculturalism as practiced on college campuses’ as my culture. Exactly who are you to tell me what my culture is? You don’t know me well at all should you believe such crazy.

    And that’s the point: you can’t possibly argue such a claim without extensive and specific evidence about the people you judge as a starting point, and you lack that heavy detail.You’re just wrong on this one. And as I’m sure you know, writing a sensible blog post to lament ill treatment of Black people by police does not make anyone a race tribalist, BigWOWO. If anything, they’re just paying attention.

  7. If it were really race-blind, we’d also see Asian American feminists married to Asian dudes. Hey, we’d also see liberal Black women and White women married to Asian dudes. We’d also see them giving equal airtime to the plights of Asian dudes. But that’s not a part of that culture. It’s not Asian-dude centric or even Asian-dude equal. — BigWOWO

    Who’s to say that we don’t view all these couples all the time? Further, since when has the meaningful barometer of liberal multiculturalism’s integrity been its impact on the dating choices of Asian American men?

    Why does everything always come back to the dating choices of Asian American men? Seriously, this must be the most over-discussed non-issue in modern identity politics.

  8. Snoopy:

    Everyone is part of a culture. Everyone. 100%. That’s one of my pet peeves about college liberalism. It has a double standard when it comes to culture. Y’all are fine pointing your fingers at “mainstream” culture while crying “racism” or “sexism” or any other isms, but you refuse to look at your own culture. College liberals will analyze White mainstream culture (or cultures) to death, but the minute anyone tries to talk about your own culture, you pretend that culture doesn’t exist.

    What gives, Snoopy?

    Further, what is to be gained from this sort of relationship analysis anyway? This voyeurism strikes me as odd. Lots of people enter relationships with people who are vastly different from themselves; that’s completely acceptable, and in no way comments on anyone’s culture at all.

    To me, this reeks of privilege, Snoopy. In your culture, you are the king of the world because of the fact that you are a Black man. A Black man like Michael Brown can commit a crime, and your culture will excuse it. Oshay Jackson’s culture won’t, but yours will.

    Why does everything always come back to the dating choices of Asian American men? Seriously, this must be the most over-discussed non-issue in modern identity politics.

    It’s a “non-issue” because the issues of Asian American men in general are a non-issue…in YOUR culture. I blogged about that here. Seriously, look at the facts around you. Do you see John Cho participating in forums like this? No. He’s not a part of the blogging or activism culture. But even then, he sees what’s obvious. We Asian men are “non-issues” in your culture, but that’s because of your prejudice that dismisses Asian male concerns, not because we’re unimportant.

    Or let me rephrase that–we’re unimportant in your culture, but not everyone subscribes to your culture.

    Further, this line of inquiry puts you in the needlessly offensive position of defining other people’s cultures for them, thye sort of old-school anthropological exercise designed only to obscure and silence people not invited to the conversation.

    Again, Snoopy, you yourself constantly point at and criticize mainstream culture. Here, we haven’t really even arrived at a place where we’re criticizing your culture; you’re getting riled up by the thought that your culture even exists. Isn’t that a bit strange? Why is it that other people’s culture exists for your critique, while you feel yourself above the same kind of critique? Riddle us this.

  9. I’ve dated a fairly broad swath of ethnic females over the years and while I am still thinking about what Byron wrote, I can say that I always became much more interested in the culture of a person whom I was dating.

    But just like personalities and personal habits, people tend to show you the best sides of their culture first. That is part of the reason it’s easy to become infatuated by it. But like most things, familiarity will soon wear off the novelty. I assume that even Snoopy and Jenn were taken in at first by each other’s cultures (at least to some degree). But by now, they would probably just see each other as people, not as new or “different.”

  10. BigWOWO, no one’s suggested that culture doesn’t exist. I suggest that you do not know with any specificity another person’s interactions with a particular culture. When you assert that I represent “liberal multiculturalism as practiced on college campuses”, you make a guess rooted in nothing. You’ve zero evidence to support that claim, and your argument suffers as a result.

    Plus, you have no reason nor any right to tell me what my culture is. You’re both wrong and offensive when you do so. It is not the sort of behavior you would tolerate from someone in return.

    Now, I have no clue what experiences you endured that convinced you that certain cultures care nothing for Asian male concerns. I won’t guess. What I will say is that I personally find the endless discussions about Asian American male dating choices useless. There’s no reason I’ve found to believe that Asian American men experience major dating obstacles, anywhere. So this is much ado about nothing, again.

  11. Good post Byron. Quite thought provoking. I never thought of this angle before.

  12. King,

    I agree. At a certain point, we all become just human to each other. It’s true in just about all relationships.

    My point though, as you said, is that culture plays a role in how we interact. By dating these women, you became more interested in their culture. By talking to Asian men on this site, you became more interested in our culture. It’s the same with me–by talking to you, I become more interested in YOUR African American culture. I’m even interested in Snoopy’s African American culture, even if I disagree with the values within his culture. Culture plays a role in all of our interactions. Even now in the presidential election, we’re seeing chasms opening up because of cultural differences. Certain people focus on culture…only when it’s not their own. That’s a big mistake. There’s no point in trying to understand only another person’s culture. These people miss out on learning about themselves.

    Sengge,

    Thanks!

    I think it helps to see this. For example, I don’t speak Cantonese well, but I feel more warmth when I hear it spoken since it’s closer to my ancestral language. The culture is completely different from many of the newer immigrants. So yeah, there’s a little bit of affinity there.

    I also notice that I also have some affinity for some Japanese cultures, although not all–I don’t watch anime at all.

    It occurred to me that within lit, we say, “That’s an Asian American novel,” but often I feel that many of these novels don’t represent my culture. And they don’t–they’re Asian American, but they’re a completely different kind of Asian American than me.

    It would be good to someday get some equal airtime.

    Snoopy,

    How long have we known each other online? WOWO started in 2008, and we had to have known each other a couple years before that. So…10 years? Plus, I know someone who actually lives with you. I’m not sure why you think I have no idea where you come from.

    This reminds me a bit about the Asian of Reason, who used to come here to post long essays about how black intellect was inferior. Before he left, he said something like, “But I’ve got lots of black friends in real life!”

    I didn’t believe it then, and I don’t believe it now. What we say online is who we are in real life. Do you disagree? Am I wrong?

    Now, I have no clue what experiences you endured that convinced you that certain cultures care nothing for Asian male concerns. I won’t guess. What I will say is that I personally find the endless discussions about Asian American male dating choices useless. There’s no reason I’ve found to believe that Asian American men experience major dating obstacles, anywhere. So this is much ado about nothing, again.

    How long have we known each other again? You say that you don’t think that certain cultures dismiss Asian male concerns. And then you dismiss Asian male concerns. It’s YOUR culture, Snoopy, that I’m talking about!

  13. Sengge/King,

    Speaking of which, I really don’t come from Frank Chin’s culture. I think his culture STARTED mine, but it’s a different generation, but his culture didn’t give birth to mine, not in a literal sense. But yes, his culture was one of the greatest influences on mine.

  14. It’s a fascinating topic for me. I really haven’t thought much about it in depth when it comes to attraction before. For sure, I have heard about sub-cultures and “lifestyles”. But “culture” is more about what people do or what they wear or what they’re pre-occupied with, isn’t it? It’s about “why” they do the things they do, what motivates them, what needs are being filled.

    Right now, when I assess someone I do it in bits and pieces. From observation, I can sometimes tell why individuals do the things they do, what things they value, and other assorted matters. But I can’t really place them on a “map” of any kind beyond the most obvious generalities, i.e. “conservative” or “liberal”, “knowledge avoidant” or “knowledge intrigued”, “closed” or “open” minded.

    It would be tremendously useful to have a well constructed cultural “map” to place them on. The map places and links the individual to the society and history of the times the individual lives in. This understanding must surely be useful.

  15. “But “culture” is more about what people do or what they wear or what they’re pre-occupied with, isn’t it?”

    Meant to say, “but “culture” is more than just about about what people do or what they wear or what they’re pre-occupied with, isn’t it?”

  16. Just on the sub-topic of why people do what they do, it’s clear that James Lamb comes from a culture of “It’s all about me!”

    He just hijacked another conversation into one that’s all about him. We began with exploring the idea that people can be attracted to the culture a person comes from as part of attraction. Then he stepped in and said “Not me! I represent the whole world so that invalidates your idea!”

    Why must every topic in this blog be hijacked by James Lamb in such a manner? This thread is perhaps the best demonstration of the abject nature of James Lamb’s inner drives and motives.

  17. How long have we known each other again? You say that you don’t think that certain cultures dismiss Asian male concerns. And then you dismiss Asian male concerns. It’s YOUR culture, Snoopy, that I’m talking about! — BigWOWO

    BigWOWO, my culture has dismissed Asian male concerns. I have. Personally. I, Snoopy Jenkins, find the interracial relationships debate among Asian Americans completely useless and meaningless and boring. It’s just old. Obsolete.

    But to assert that my perspective on this tired non-issue displays any evidence of a cultural stance on anything makes no sense. I’m an individual. I don’t speak for my culture, and my culture does not speak for me.

    To assert that ‘culture plays a role in all our interactions’ as you have above ignores individual free will to an extreme degree. Not everyone serves as a carbon copied stand-in for their cultural background.

    Now we have known each other a number of years, but you routinely fail to predict my perspectives on most everything.You don’t understand my interactions with Black culture; you know nothing of Black culture’s values, mores, or inherent contradictions. You misunderstand its history and fail to grasp its politics. You don’t really know Black culture with any depth, and you routinely misinterpret Black political and social perspectives because of this ignorance.

    Cultural comprehension to an intense degree is required before one issues cultural comparisons or pronouncements worth analysis. Like I said before, my problem with this blog post of yours above is it’s universality. Many people become enamored with other cultures not their own: certainly much of the Asiaphilia many condemn is rooted in this. But lots of people find interest in other individuals without concern for or in spite of their cultures. This too is pretty common, and complicates your argument considerably.

  18. Should read above:

    “BigWOWO, my culture has NOT dismissed Asian male concerns.”

    But in a very real sense, that’s not entirely true, is it? It’s hard to find a cultural take on Asian male concerns from a generally accepted Black perspective. I don’t think one exists, and this certainly leads to what may reasonably be termed indifference from Black America on Asian male concerns.

    But to recap, as an individual, the endless IR debates some Asian Americans enjoy do not compute. To Sengge’s point, it’s clear that some people really want the space here to examine their IR angst without someone who disagrees with their position around to spoil the griping.

    Be Sengge misunderstands. I do not represent the whole world, only myself. I don’t represent my culture, just me. And I disagree with this blog post. I know too many people who found partners and forged lasting relationships without any concern for cultural ties or social affinity. They were just individual people, different in most conceivable ways, who found they made better sense together. To assert that cultural ties matter so much obscures their experiences. It’s armchair anthropology — and it erases their experiences from discussion.

  19. You address YOURSELF as “Snoopy Jenkins”?

    Are we to recognize this as “the name you took for yourself” as opposed to James Lamb which is “the name you were given”?

    Where does Snoopy come from? A cartoon character? And Jenkins? Another comic personality? Was he supposed to be some kind of butler?

    Can you enlighten us on the intersection between your cartoon doggie butler personality and the “Melanin Manson” modeled after a crazed white cult leader who murdered a pregnant woman and her unborn child, amongst other heinous murders of innocent men and women who merely happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time?

  20. “Be Sengge misunderstands. I do not represent the whole world, only myself. I don’t represent my culture, just me.”

    If that were the case, why do you use your own example to disprove Byron’s hypothesis? LMAO!

    “And I disagree with this blog post. I know too many people who found partners and forged lasting relationships without any concern for cultural ties or social affinity. They were just individual people, different in most conceivable ways, who found they made better sense together.”

    Awww shit… in the words of Jenn Fang and James Lamb, this is “anecdotal” and proves nothing. At least until you cry that it “invalidates your lived reality”. ROFL!

    “To assert that cultural ties matter so much obscures their experiences. It’s armchair anthropology — and it erases their experiences from discussion.”

    LMAO! I will do everything I can to have your child seized from you by protective services, before you have the chance to fuck him or her up with your selfish contempt of any “lived reality” that is not your own. 😀

  21. Chinese are the worst Asians, which is saying quite a lot, since you also have Japanese, Koreans, and Vietnamese.

  22. BigWowo is a huge fan of censorship and a hater of free speech. That’s why he constantly deletes my posts. Anti-Americanism at its finest.

  23. There’s no reason I’ve found to believe that Asian American men experience major dating obstacles, anywhere.

    People say the exact same thing about Black men and police brutality. I suppose they must be right.

  24. Peter, BigWOWO’s a strident defender of free speech. That being said, anti-Asian hatespeech should be deleted.

    Sengge, if there’s a point somewhere amid the gobbledygook you write, I can’t find it. Suffice it to say that if you are interested in a conversation on cultural affinity, it would help to determine if the actions of individual people are at all governed or influenced by their cultures. BigWOWO suggests a cultural determinism approach; I think rugged individualism more likely influences human action.

    That being said, it is true that Black American culture does not often (or ever, really) grapple with Asian male concerns. It just doesn’t really come up. I would assume that a similar dynamic most often plays in reverse. Individuals are a different matter entirely. King, for example, expresses much more sympathy toward the never-ending IR debates here than I ever would.

    I expect that neither of our stances on Asian male dating concerns reflect anything at all about Black culture. Neither of us can or should claim some overbearing cultural authenticity that informs our position on the subject. Rather, it’s clear that two individual Black people can disagree on an issue, and that’s totally fine. Because of disagreements like this between individuals within a particular demographic, I find BigWOWO’s cultural determinism argument flawed.

  25. I think the biggest flaw with the culture argument is the assumption that culture reliably correlates with race. Race is not the same as culture. It is for this reason that asking an Asian American if they eat dogs is often racist.

    The post also assumes that Korean adoptees should identify with Asian American culture (or its subsets) when in reality, most Korean adoptees grow up immersed in White American culture and have little reason to identify culturally with other Asian Americans other than the fact that they experience the same racism.

    In my experience, the culture argument is usually used as just a proxy to disguise or excuse one’s racism. If an Asian woman says she prefers not to date Asian men because she thinks “Asian culture” is misogynist, chances are she’s not so much upset about dating sexist men as she is upset about the prospect of dating a man of her own race.

  26. Peter:

    If you throw around racist epithets, I’m going to delete your messages. If you can’t play by the rules, there are plenty of other sites that will take your comments.

    Sengge,

    Yes. It’s about the why and the lifestyle they’re trying to achieve. I would say that they also often overlap—you can be part of several cultures at once, although your home base probably doesn’t change so much. Think about politics. Is there any reason conservatives both believe in gun control and anti-abortion? The two don’t logically go hand-in-hand, but because of the way culture works—i.e. lots of church people own guns—they become part of a cultural belief.

    I don’t know if my culture has a name, although it would probably be useful to give it one. It’s Asian American culture, but it’s not the same one as Amy Tan and Maxine Kingston, not the same one as Frank Chin either.

    Snoopy,

    BigWOWO, my culture has dismissed Asian male concerns. I have. Personally. I, Snoopy Jenkins, find the interracial relationships debate among Asian Americans completely useless and meaningless and boring. It’s just old. Obsolete.
    But to assert that my perspective on this tired non-issue displays any evidence of a cultural stance on anything makes no sense. I’m an individual. I don’t speak for my culture, and my culture does not speak for me.

    That’s not how culture works. Culture isn’t a closed entity like a nation-state or a company. You either work at Google or you don’t, the same way you’re either an American or you aren’t. But culture is more porous, less rigidly defined. It’s a set of values and a lifestyle. It’s history. You do not speak FOR your culture, but the values you espouse come from your culture. I know, because I’ve experienced people from your culture downplaying Asian male concerns many times.

    It’s hard to find a cultural take on Asian male concerns from a generally accepted Black perspective. I don’t think one exists, and this certainly leads to what may reasonably be termed indifference from Black America on Asian male concerns.

    I don’t consider you and King to be of the same culture, the same way you and Oshay are not part of the same culture, the same way Jenn and ChineseMom are not of the same culture. King is not part of your movement, even if he’s Black. Yes, you overlap, and I think you and him could have beers (with me too), but I think your values are completely different. That’s not to say that you’re always wrong, but the values are different.

    Now if we were to say, “Extreme Liberal College Culture,” I think our powers of prediction go up considerably. If I asked someone from a liberal college organization about Asian male issues, I would expect that person to dismiss me. I’m familiar with the culture, and I know how it goes down in that community.

    I know too many people who found partners and forged lasting relationships without any concern for cultural ties or social affinity. They were just individual people, different in most conceivable ways, who found they made better sense together. To assert that cultural ties matter so much obscures their experiences.

    I flat out disagree with this. You’re a product of your history and culture, which is why you like to quote Ta-Nehisi Coates and repeat extremist (and unfounded) accusations against Thomas Jefferson when we talk. I’m exactly the same way—there’s a reason why I like to talk about Frank Chin and Malcolm X.

    I guess where I have the biggest problems is the unequal treatment here. You’re okay talking about White culture when it comes to racism. You’re okay with Jenn talking about “anti-Blackness” in the Asian American community. But you refuse to place yourself in a cultural context. What gives?

  27. Kiwi:

    See the OP, where I talk about the difference between Herman Cain vs. an extreme liberal black person. I said from the get-go that race and culture didn’t correlate exactly. It’s the same reason why I think King and Snoopy are culturally different.

    But at the same time, I do think that race, at least in America, ALWAYS plays a role. For example:

    The post also assumes that Korean adoptees should identify with Asian American culture (or its subsets) when in reality, most Korean adoptees grow up immersed in White American culture and have little reason to identify culturally with other Asian Americans other than the fact that they experience the same racism.

    I live in Oregon, which is where Holt is (was?) located, so there are tons of Korean adoptees here. I can say from experience that the vast majority do not identify with White, even though their parents are White. It’s not just the racism either; like most people, they want to know where they come from, and it’s evident every time that they look in the mirror that they’re from Asia.

    Do you remember Koream Magazine? Lots of the writers were adoptees. I don’t think that was any coincidence. It’s natural to question where you come from, just as it’s natural to question your own culture.

    In my experience, the culture argument is usually used as just a proxy to disguise or excuse one’s racism. If an Asian woman says she prefers not to date Asian men because she thinks “Asian culture” is misogynist, chances are she’s not so much upset about dating sexist men as she is upset about the prospect of dating a man of her own race.

    Okay, so here’s another possibility: do you think “misogynist” could be a proxy for something else that’s cultural? Maybe she enjoys bringing her White boyfriend to places where people compliment her for being open-minded, something which rarely happens with AF/AM relationships, although the numbers are around the same among the native-born. Within Asian American feminist circles, having a White or Black boyfriend is a status symbol, so maybe she wants that. I think attraction definitely plays a role, as I’ve heard many Asian women say they won’t date Asian, but I can’t say that that’s everything. Think about it–the entire culture dynamic changes depending on whether you go interracial or intraracial. It has to be more complicated than just pure attraction, even among men.

  28. BigWOWO, if you take my commentary to indicate cultural positions — like when you assume that my indifference to the pointless IR debate indicates something about Black cultural indifference to Asian male concerns — you in effect suggest that I speak for my culture. This is not sensible.

    Now sure you and I and King could probably go out for beers (or you guys can order beers while I enjoy pineapple juice) but we’d probably find in that conversation that any association between my perspectives and liberal college culture does not make sense. I’m simply not attached to the elementary tolerance commonly associated with those spaces. Again, cultural commentary is only as useful as it is accurate, and you’ve been getting your facts wrong.

    I guess where I have the biggest problems is the unequal treatment here. You’re okay talking about White culture when it comes to racism. You’re okay with Jenn talking about “anti-Blackness” in the Asian American community. But you refuse to place yourself in a cultural context. What gives? — BigWOWO

    The difference is cultural specificity. People of color, especially the descendants of chattel slaves, have long and storied experience with White culture. We’ve analyzed it up close for generations. We’ve picked their cotton, tended their horses, nursed their children and buried their dead. Many of us can speak with authority on White privilege and systemic racism because we’ve put in the time to understand the reality as it is lived.

    Asian Americans who observe strains of anti-Black prejudice in their communities enjoy an immersive connection to Asian American cultures; they know Asian Americans as well as you do, and apply what they know of anti-Black prejudice to that cultural knowledge. Be not surprised that the conclusions they sometimes draw from that intra-communal analysis do not often flatter Asian American communities, but do not deny that the Asian American observers who claim anti-Blackness among Asian Americans speak about cultures and communities they know intimately.

    As an individual, I recognize that I hold cultural ties, however strained. I have not denied this. But you have yet to identify those ties with any specificity or accuracy, and you incorrectly assume that my individual perspective reflects cultural values alone. Again, your argument suffers because of this routine inaccuracy, BigWOWO. Further, you should acknowledge that for many of us, one’s exercise of independent free will is not determined by one’s culture.

    Certainly the decisions that lead to lasting relationships need not revolve around cultural attraction or cultural affinity. To suggest that couples bond over shared cultural ties is just not universally accurate.

    Within Asian American feminist circles, having a White or Black boyfriend is a status symbol, so maybe she wants that. — BigWOWO

    Completely untrue. Totally false. Simply wrong.

    This dynamic you describe just doesn’t happen. Interracial dating isn’t treated as some status symbol in feminist circles. Think about what you’re suggesting BigWOWO: you say that feminist women are going to give other feminist women added adoration and respect for the men they choose to date.

    I can’t think of a more anti-feminist response to someone’s private life than this. Treating interracial dating as a method to increase status would directly contradict feminist perspectives, BigWOWO. This dynamic you describe simply does not happen.

  29. Snoopy,

    I’m not sure if you realize it, but you completely fall in line behind the other college liberals. Jenn does too. Affirmative action? Yup. Black Lives Matter? Yup. Believe Asian men have no social problems. Yup. This says nothing about your sense of individualism. I’m sure you came to these ideas on your own, but they were influenced heavily by your culture. Do you think it’s a coincidence that your views are in lockstep with those around you? If you think you aren’t influenced by the people around you, I would say that you don’t understand yourself. We’re ALL influenced by the people we hang out with.

    Now as to your ideas about “chattel slavery”…I hope you remember that you yourself once argued (against ChineseMom) that Black America was not a cultural monolith. I’ve always agreed with this, but it seems you’re going back on that now. King and Oshay are both also descendents of slaves, but their views are noticeably different from yours–and from one another as well.

    Be not surprised that the conclusions they sometimes draw from that intra-communal analysis do not often flatter Asian American communities, but do not deny that the Asian American observers who claim anti-Blackness among Asian Americans speak about cultures and communities they know intimately.

    Yes and no. I think you probably remember that issue with Jenn commenting on the foreign-born community without being able to speak or read Chinese. She was recounting what she had read in the English-language media. You can’t really understand people if you can’t understand their language, ESPECIALLY when we’re talking about something as complex as racial prejudice.

    So I don’t believe it’s an issue, but for the sake of argument, let’s assume that some groups of Asian Americans are anti-Black.

    Why are you allowed to criticize their culture, while they aren’t even allowed to identify yours? Snoopy, I’m not even addressing the content of your opinions. I’m questioning the entire framework. Feel free to analyze my culture (which you have in the past), but shouldn’t we be treating every culture equally here?

    Think about what you’re suggesting BigWOWO: you say that feminist women are going to give other feminist women added adoration and respect for the men they choose to date.

    I wasn’t talking about feminism; I was talking about Asian American feminism. It’s never made sense. At least not to me.

    But yes, I was once intimately familiar with this group, and I continue to watch from the wings.

  30. BigWOWO, I have never suggested that Asian men have no social problems, nor has any credible liberal suggested such crazy. I have suggested that lack of dating opportunities do not present social problems for any recognized American demographic, including Asian American men. Further, the available statistics we have on the subject support my claim.

    Also, my views have never been in lockstep with those around me. You’d know that if you knew me better, but this dialogue continually exposes the knowledge gap in your cultural determinism arguments.

    Black America is quite diverse, ideologically, social, even ethnically. I’ve written nothing to reverse that position. It is because of the extreme diversity within Black America that I can suggest with confidence that you know too little about Black folk to make cultural claims about Black individuals, including me.

    As for commenting on the foreign-born community with nonnative speaker language skills: no one’s stopping anyone from commenting on a particular culture. The question is, do those comments have merit? Are they worth parsing? For example, when some Asian Americans assert that anti-Black prejudice persists in certain first and second generation Asian American spaces, they speak from their experiences with those spaces. My experience with first and second generation Asian Americans supports some of those claims, though I tend to believe that Asian Americans really don’t think about Black people all that much.

    The point is that anyone can criticize anything, including another culture. Whether any of those criticisms hold weight depends in larger measure on the specific knowledge base leveraged to support the criticism. Usually, cultural critics lack specificity, and their arguments suffer as a result. That’s what’s happening here.

    For example, it is simply not accurate to suggest that Asian Americans like the author of Reappropriate don’t speak Mandarin Chinese. Many of the Asian Americans who argue that anti-Blackness exists within Asian American circles have the language skills to parse the racist vitriol they find in immigrant spaces.

    If you choose not to believe their claims, you’ve made a judgment on the claim’s veracity based on your knowledge base, which is totally fine. In essence, cultural arguments impose relativity in review and rely on specificity in execution, and as such are often too unwieldy to be of much use.

    For example, your claims about Asian American feminism never find basis in fact. They are consistently baseless and inflammatory, and reflect your biases and emotional pain over being an Asian American man in a country where you believe it more difficult to date White women than Asian females endure when dating White men. The easy fix for you would be to read Asian American feminist writers, and to include a working knowledge of their perspectives in your critiques.

    But it takes work to learn something, and you never wish to put in the time. That’s why I can consistently come to this blog and point out the overt superficiality of your perspectives. They are rooted in nothing. Again, no one’s stopping you from critiquing Asian American feminists, leftist Black men, or anything else. But your criticisms appear uniformed at best, BigWOWO, and that’s more than a beer summit can fix.

  31. Snoopy. Snoopy. It’s the same deal as in the last thread. You start tripping over your contradictions, and you refuse to admit that you’re wrong. Again, we don’t actually get to address your actual opinions because you stubbornly cling to opinions that crumble under the weight of logic. Just above, for example, you were talking about Black culture. Now we’re going back to the idea that there’s no such thing as Black culture. Which is it? And there is no way you don’t remember the way ChineseMom posted links that the blogger at Reappropriate coudn’t read, even with Google Translate. And that’s fine. The blogger understands her own culture, which is the same culture as yours.

    I think you think that it’s a weakness to admit that you’re wrong. I don’t see it that way.

    The truth is that there’s no shame in the fact that I’ve accurately predicted your views based on my knowledge of your culture (I gave several examples above). We all have culture, and we all belong to different subcultures. It’s not a weakness, nor is it a poor reflection on you as an individual. It’s just human.

    You too fall in love with culture. It can’t be coincidence that you surround yourself with people whose culture compliments yours. And there’s nothing wrong with that. I’m not sure why pointing this out is offensive. You and I both do it when it comes to mainstream culture. Why shouldn’t we do it with ourselves? I think you think you’re special–and I think you are too–but special doesn’t mean superhuman. We’re all human.

  32. Jenn Snoopy Fang James Jenkins .Lamb

    What are you still doing here?

    Did you need a break from deleting all those inconvenient comments at reappropriate.co, the foremost Asian activism site that throws Asians under the bus and ignores Black on Asian violence?

  33. I really like your idea, and it resonates with me. I see it play out with myself, and a number of other people both male and female. One of the problems is that the affinity usually is not symmetric. My wife gets something out of the exchange, but she doesn’t have the same affinity. If you have a cross cultural marriage you loss somethings and you gain other things.

    This idea of cultural affinity in a marriage reminds me of the economist Gary Becker’s work on the marriage market. I don’t think he used this as a variable, but it works as another factor. I would also point out, these theories are simplifications, and its not the way it works in real life. They are simplifications, because humans are too messy. They are not deterministic, but they are useful in trying to figure out patterns.

  34. Jman,

    I think this idea is my singular greatest personal breakthrough in the last year or two. It’s kinda like modeling the atom–it’s not perfectly deterministic since we all belong to several different subcultures, but it’s the best model for discussing who we are.

    Here’s a great article from the NY Times today that illustrates what I’m talking about:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/milwaukee-segregation-wealthy-black-families.html?_r=0

    There’s an affinity towards culture that pulls people in, even if people can see that a different home could be a better financial investment.

    Fascinating, really. It explains who we are.

  35. Ah, yes… the old discussion. Hey BigWow, doesn’t this give you flashbacks to the good ‘ol days of The Fighting 44s?

    9 years later and people still understand what we’re sayin’. Just thought I’d leave a comment and temporarily exit lurker mode.

    Hope you and the whole fam are well.

    -g.

  36. Snp, there is a saying “actions speak louder than words”. How would you feel if there was an asian man married to a black woman going into a black community forum for black men and telling black men to get their shit together?

    Do you understand, that you yourself are complicit and have unconsciously internalized racist views of asian men yourself? No amount of rationalizing will get around the fact that you simply just dont give a shit and cant muster an ounce of empathy unless the asian man were a hot and sexy asian woman in need of ‘saving’ or a black brother or sister.

    All these words are simply lipservice to an ideal that doesn’t exist in the real world. This is about ego, your ego. Look in the mirror look carefully, and let it go. Thats my advice to you.

  37. Snoopy,

    Asian Americans who observe strains of anti-Black prejudice in their communities enjoy an immersive connection to Asian American cultures; they know Asian Americans as well as you do, and apply what they know of anti-Black prejudice to that cultural knowledge. Be not surprised that the conclusions they sometimes draw from that intra-communal analysis do not often flatter Asian American communities, but do not deny that the Asian American observers who claim anti-Blackness among Asian Americans speak about cultures and communities they know intimately.

    Could you explain in detail what is this “anti-Black prejudice” in Asian American communities and how black people are victimized by this prejudice? How about anti-Asian prejudice in Black community? So many Asian Americans have become the targets and victims of Black violence, and quite a few black celebrities ridiculed Asians in the media without much consequence (like Jeremy Lin and recent Oscar Asian jokes), do you really believe that so called anti-Blackness in AA communities is more of a problem than the anti-Asian prejudice in Black community?

  38. We Asian immigrants are ingrained with Asian values which are the opposite from Black American culture in my observations: we extremely anti-violence, anti-single motherhood, we value academic and hard-working, we don’t have any entitlement, we are eager to improve ourselves and taking responsibility for ourselves instead of blaming everything on others. If this lead to anti-blackness impressions, so be it.

  39. Most importantly, we don’t have this victimhood mentality and don’t see everything through race lens. We don’t have double standards, don’t ask people of other races to be better or more tolerant than us.

    I think our only guilt is that we weren’t instill with this extremely sense of equality like native born Americans, because most of us came from developing countries where this kind of equality can not be afforded. We are also guilty of not being able to express ourselves in more articulate and politically correct ways, because we were not trained like native born Americans. We are not good at “propaganda” or expressing ourselves in the best possible light as I said in the other thread. These are our culture weaknesses.

  40. ChineseMom,

    There’s no one “Black American Culture,” the same way there’s no one “Chinese American Culture.” Let’s take victimhood for example. I have never seen or heard King say anything about him being a victim. That’s part of some black people’s culture–shrieking girl, for example, or most of the people behind Black Lives Matter. But it’s not part of King’s culture, nor is it a part of John Dabiri’s culture or Oshay Duke Jackson‘s culture. I don’t even think it’s the culture of most of the inner city. I think it’s more of the extreme liberal people in college or the media; they’re the ones who hate personal responsibility for black people. And it’s not just Black people who support this–there are also lots of White people and Asian people who are also against personal responsibility for Protected Minorities. So instead of saying, “Black American Culture,” maybe it makes sense to name it. You could call it, “Social Justice Warrior Culture” or “Extreme College Liberal Culture.”

    Think of it this way. You and I are of the same heritage, and yet your culture is different from mine. You spend time on WeChat and other Chinese message boards; I don’t. You actually spent a large part of your time in China, going through the school system, knowing and living the culture. You know all the Chinese sayings. My Chinese is conversational; I can ask people’s opinions, so I’m somewhat conversant. But I don’t live it like you. I live my own culture, which is probably similar to the culture that your kids live. (Let’s just say that I HOPE they’re living my culture. If either of your children comes back from college with a Black Lives Matter boyfriend or girlfriend and expects the government to support them for life as reparations for some imagined transgression, I hope you don’t blame me.)

    So you couldn’t just call our culture “Chinese American culture” because it’s different; we belong to two very different subcultures, even though we sometimes overlap. You could call yours “First Generation Chinese Immigrant Culture.” You could call mine “Fed Up With Nonsense Culture.” It’s the same thing with “Black American Culture.” I think you have to identify the subgroup, otherwise you run the risk of saying something that may not always be true.

  41. Culture:

    b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group;

  42. If you try to apply that definition, it actually proves my point. They don’t have the same “customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits.” Even though they’re both Black, King and Snoopy are far apart, the same way DeRay McKesson and Ben Carson are far apart. They may be the same race, but they’re not from the same culture. If I were to speak to you in Japanese or Korean, you wouldn’t understand. You wouldn’t understand the language or the customs because you’re not from the same culture, even if you physically resemble them.

    What would you say if I accused your people of committing violence in Nanjing? What if I said, “Black American culture is incompatible with Asian culture. You people sliced upon pregnant women and decapitated babies. Your society is murderous! How could I ever associate with people like you?” You’d say, “But I’m not Japanese! I’m Chinese!” And I could respond, “How can I tell the difference? You’ve got black hair and eyes shaped like that, and you’re living here. There is one Asian American culture!”

  43. The key word is “customary”.

    “Black American Culture” doesn’t mean every Black people share the same beliefs, social forms, and material traits, but there is a distinguishable set of that is shared by majority Black people, this is part of “Black American Culture”.

    Although King isn’t a typical Black American, there are still something in him that I found only belong to “Black American culture”. It is almost impossible for a person growing up in a culture without ingrained with that culture mark.

    I don’t think you and I have the same culture heritage. I come from Chinese culture, you, King and Snoopy belong to American culture, the two cultures are very different. Culturally, you three have more in common than with me even though you all belong to different sub-culture. That is why you understand each other much better.

  44. But doesn’t that also prove the point too? I actually somewhat agree with you–I have more in common with King than I do with you, even though I’m racially closer to you. (I’m half-half on whether I have more in common with Snoopy or you.) So does that mean I’m Black? Or King is Asian?

    My point is that you talked about victimhood, single mothers, and violence, and you linked them to Black American culture. Two of those three have NOTHING to do with either King or Snoopy, the same way you had nothing to do with the rape of Nanjing.

    Some people are against putting labels on cultures. I’m not. I’m totally fine with that. But I think the labels need to be accurate. You can say that there are Black American cultureS, but I don’t see how you can say there is one. You yourself said that you and I don’t come from the same culture, which I agree with. So if you and I have two different labels (at least!), why can’t we do the same for Black America?

  45. So for example, here is how I would label King’s culture. I could say something like “California African American second generation professional interested in Asian American issues.” He’s the son of immigrants. That plays a big party in his culture because he inherited an immigrant’s mentality.

    For Snoopy, I could say something like, “Ivy Educated Liberal Arts multi-generational African American focused on social justice.”

    The customary beliefs are different. The traditions are different. Everything is different.

  46. Byron,

    What would you say if I accused your people of committing violence in Nanjing? What if I said, “Black American culture is incompatible with Asian culture. You people sliced upon pregnant women and decapitated babies. Your society is murderous! How could I ever associate with people like you?” You’d say, “But I’m not Japanese! I’m Chinese!” And I could respond, “How can I tell the difference? You’ve got black hair and eyes shaped like that, and you’re living here. There is one Asian American culture!”

    I think this is typical American mentality, American arguments and American liberal culture.

    If “sliced upon pregnant women and decapitated babies” were common practices in China, then that would be part of Chinese culture, our society indeed would be murderous. I wouldn’t blame you too much if you despise me or not want to associate with me even though I’m not like that. Because I accept who I am and take full responsibility for my culture, good or bad. I wouldn’t expect people be able to know me inside out without much contact with me and be able to distinguish me from my culture, nor would I expect everybody to be an angel all the time and accept me.

  47. Byron,

    I think in term of beliefs and values, you have more in common with me than with Snoopy. But “culture” is a big word, there are a lot of other things belong to it besides beliefs and values.

    I have more in common with King than I do with you, even though I’m racially closer to you. (I’m half-half on whether I have more in common with Snoopy or you.) So does that mean I’m Black? Or King is Asian?

    This means you and King are both Americans.

    My point is that you talked about victimhood, single mothers, and violence, and you linked them to Black American culture. Two of those three have NOTHING to do with either King or Snoopy

    Actually, those three have everything to do with Snoopy and partly with King. Snoopy clearly have that victimhood mentality, is very tolerant to crimes, criminals and single-motherhood by my standards (or Asian standards). We Asian immigrants are completely in opposite.

    So for example, here is how I would label King’s culture. I could say something like “California African American second generation professional interested in Asian American issues.” He’s the son of immigrants.

    Black American culture is sub-culture of American culture, your definition of King’s culture is sub-sub…sub- Black American culture, still part of Black American culture. If he denies that he belongs to Black American culture, that means he hasn’t fully embrace his Black identity yet.

  48. Actually, those three have everything to do with Snoopy and partly with King. Snoopy clearly have that victimhood mentality, is very tolerant to crimes, criminals and single-motherhood by my standards (or Asian standards). We Asian immigrants are completely in opposite. — ChineseMom

    This is ridiculous.

  49. ChineseMom,

    On the China vs. Japan thing:

    If “sliced upon pregnant women and decapitated babies” were common practices in China, then that would be part of Chinese culture, our society indeed would be murderous. I wouldn’t blame you too much if you despise me or not want to associate with me even though I’m not like that. Because I accept who I am and take full responsibility for my culture, good or bad.

    But what if they were common practices in Japan? As a Chinese person, would you take responsibility for that? If someone said, “You Asians slice pregnant women and decaptitate babies and that’s part of Asian culture,” would you take responsibility for that? I think that’s the question.

    Actually, those three have everything to do with Snoopy and partly with King. Snoopy clearly have that victimhood mentality, is very tolerant to crimes, criminals and single-motherhood by my standards (or Asian standards). We Asian immigrants are completely in opposite.

    I thought none of the three had anything to do with King. Or at least they have as much to do with King as with me.

    For Snoopy, yes, I’d agree that he’s got a victim mentality. He and I have argued over this many times. But this is a cultural trait of college liberals of all colors, NOT Black college people, and especially not Black people in general. If you went into the middle of Bed Stuy and started talking to Black people, you’d find that the victim mentality is a lot less common there than, say, among Shrieking Girl’s circle.

    As for pregnant single moms and violent crime, Snoopy has as much experience with that as you do. Actually he has less, since it was clear from that other exchange that he never volunteered. He defends it as a lifestyle, but that’s only because he sees Black people as victims, not because he has any experience with it. Again, this is college liberalism, not Black culture.

    As for the culture in the inner cities, you’d be correct in saying that single motherhood and violence are higher. But that’s only the culture of the inner cities, NOT black culture in general. Snoopy and King are both great examples of this. Neither has this going on as a cultural trait.

    If he denies that he belongs to Black American culture, that means he hasn’t fully embrace his Black identity yet.

    Or maybe he doesn’t think it exists as a single entity.

    It’s like me. If you said, “Hey Byron, I know your culture because I read Amy Tan and Angry Asian Man and Reappropriate,” I would acknowledge that those other three are also Asian, but I’d have trouble accepting that we’re all part of the same culture. As an umbrella term, a person could accurately link me to the other three by race, but it wouldn’t be an accurate reflection of my actual culture. I probably have more in common with Ben Carson than any of these Asian people. I wouldn’t take responsibility for it because I didn’t do it. And yes, this is an American way of seeing things, but it also makes sense. Should I be apologizing for Reappropriate’s attack on you and other Chinese immigrants? Or should I take responsibility for Amy Tan’s demonization of Asian men or Angry Asian Man’s attack on Lela Lee, stuff that happens all the time in their respective cultures? Why would I do that? None of those things happen with me or those around me. It’s not part of my culture.

    Now if Ben attacked Chinese immigrants like Reappropriate did, and then Frank Chin (not the same culture as me, but overlaps) did the same thing, and then I started noticing that Asian American parents around me were lying about affirmative action and trying to pull down their own children’s college aspirations in the name of “diversity,” THEN I would say that my culture has a problem. Because it would be all around me and I wouldn’t want my kids pulled in that direction. But for me to take responsibility for every pocket of culture where Asian Americans play–it doesn’t make sense for me to do that.

  50. Umm…clarification above. Reappropriate didn’t lie about affirmative action. But she quoted Karthick, who lied, and then she passed on some other news articles that were also not telling the truth, though we’re not sure if it was ignorance or intention. When you tried to correct this by showing some Chinese language sites, Reappropriate banned you. So she didn’t actually lie. I just want to make sure this is clear.

    But my point stands. If that kind of behavior were rampant among the people around me, then I’d say my culture had a problem.

    Edit: “Ignorance or intention” by the article writers, not by Reappropriate. It’s very early in the morning.

  51. ChineseMom,

    Actually, that parent thing is a great example. Let’s say I went to scholastic chess tournaments (one of my cultures), and the parents were starting to say stuff like, “My son Gavin has his heart set on going to Harvard, but man, I feel bad to say this, but I hope he doesn’t get in. There are just too many damn Chinamen at that school. That’s why we need Affirmative Action. I keep telling him that he should be just as happy going somewhere else.”

    At this point I’d say, “Dude, we’ve got a serious cultural problem.”

  52. Byron,

    But what if they were common practices in Japan? As a Chinese person, would you take responsibility for that? If someone said, “You Asians slice pregnant women and decaptitate babies and that’s part of Asian culture,” would you take responsibility for that? I think that’s the question.

    I wouldn’t take responsibility for Japanese culture, but neither would I blame other for not being able to tell the difference and treat me as if I were a Japanese. I don’t the sense of entitlement. It is my responsibility to explain to others that I’m not a Japanese.
    —-
    Here is my understanding of the word “culture”:

    Culture: b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group;

    By this definition, “culture” is associated with group of people, not individuals . “Black culture is associated with Black people, “Chinese culture” is associated with Chinese. By racial or ethnic category, Black culture is King’s culture, Chinese culture is mine. We don’t have choice on this, we were born into it. As an individual , however, we can choose to accept or reject customary beliefs, values, way of thinking and etc. that are the norms of our culture. I think this is probably the reason that Kings won’t accept that there is one “Black culture”, because he rejected many things in main stream Black American culture. But King doesn’t form a culture by himself and no matter what culture that he consider he belongs to, there is no way that people in that culture are the same as him.

    In any culture, there are sub-cultures in it if you divide people into different groups. I consider the sub-culture of the elite group is the most crucial part of the whole culture. Because they are in power, what they promote determines where the whole culture will go. That is why I’m have more problem with elite black culture than with inner city culture, I’m critical of elite-Chinese culture than rural peasant culture.

  53. So she didn’t actually lie. I just want to make sure this is clear.

    Jenn lied. She might not have lied in her original blog post, just spread the lies by others, but when I confronted her and asked her to show the proof for her allegations, she couldn’t provide, then lied, many times.

  54. enkins

    It’s interesting that you said the following in a discussion regarding culture:

    “I have suggested that lack of dating opportunities do not present social problems for any recognized American demographic, including Asian American men. Further, the available statistics we have on the subject support my claim.”

    Let’s say (for the sake of argument) that you are correct, and the reality is that lack of dating opportunities do not present social problems for AA men. However, the commenters on this website, and on many other AA men’s forum, shows that there is a PERCEPTION among numerous AA men, that lack of dating opportunities do present social problems. As somebody who works in marketing, I can tell you firsthand that quite often, PERCEPTION trumps reality. And in this case, the AA men who PERCEIVE that a lack of dating opportunity presents social problems, are numerous enough to form a “culture”, as BigWOWO would describe it.

    In fact, my experience has been that the culture of AA men who feel a lack of dating opportunities (henceforth abbreivated AAMLDO), has become so large that it has splintered into various subcultures. There is now a subculture of AAMLDO who lift weights quite often to make themselves more attractive as compensation for their lack of dating opportunities. There is also a subculture of AAMLDO who feel that economic empowerment of Asians (and economic failure of whites) is the best way to make Asian men more competitive in the dating market, and are committed to helping themselves (and Asian countries) build financial wealth while discussing ways to undercut white American wealth. And there is a subculture of unfortunate AAMLDO who drown their woes in online complaining while not accomplishing much at all. The dating issues are a common point of discussion in all of these subcultures.

    At this point, even if you do believe that AA men do not have problems from lack of dating opportunities, you would have to agree that many AA men PERCEIVE a problem as such, enough AA men to form a culture that believes this. To that extent, given your apparent distaste for this sort of debate and this sort of culture, perhaps the question you should be contemplating, is why do many AA men perceive this to be a problem? And what actions could be undertaken to change their perception?

  55. No, she didn’t. No one’s lying about affirmative action, or anything else.

    You really need to stop.

    James, I hate “Chinesemom’s” lack of reasoning and logic as much as you do.

    But I do promise you, whatever you do personally or by proxy, I will escalate.

    I am familiar with your type. I lived under your heel.

    Whatever you do, I will escalate. You cannot go around slandering people and then crying victim when turnaround should be fair play.

    I have PERSONALLY suffered from the actions of people of the likes of you.

    Whatever you do, I will make it my mission to ensure you pay that one price more. There is no time limit on this James. I know what you are. I will make sure you are done for.

  56. ChineseMom,

    Think about what you just wrote. If you won’t take responsibility for Japanese culture, why should King or Snoopy take responsibility for inner city black culture? You said that it’s your responsibility to explain that you’re not Japanese. That’s what’s happened here–King and Snoopy both explained to you that they’re not from that culture. King’s family wasn’t even here 1.5 generations ago. Snoopy’s family has been here for years, but he’s a rich dude with two college educated parents.

    By this definition, “culture” is associated with group of people, not individuals . “Black culture is associated with Black people, “Chinese culture” is associated with Chinese. By racial or ethnic category, Black culture is King’s culture, Chinese culture is mine. We don’t have choice on this, we were born into it. As an individual , however, we can choose to accept or reject customary beliefs, values, way of thinking and etc. that are the norms of our culture. I think this is probably the reason that Kings won’t accept that there is one “Black culture”, because he rejected many things in main stream Black American culture.

    What’s there for King to reject? His dad has a post-grad degree. He’s basically lived with his parents’ values, which have nothing to do with the country to which he immigrated. Did you reject Japanese imperial values? Or Korean Han values? No, because they’re not your culture!

    I consider the sub-culture of the elite group is the most crucial part of the whole culture. Because they are in power, what they promote determines where the whole culture will go. That is why I’m have more problem with elite black culture than with inner city culture, I’m critical of elite-Chinese culture than rural peasant culture.

    Well, you kind of have a point here, but I think that also supports my argument. The crap that you read about immigrants in the U.S. media is often written by our elites. But as you’ve seen many times, often these elites just don’t get it. It’s not that they’re misrepresenting your culture; it’s that they have no understanding of it.

    She might not have lied in her original blog post, just spread the lies by others, but when I confronted her and asked her to show the proof for her allegations, she couldn’t provide, then lied, many times.

    Okay, so this is complicated.

    Snoopy, I know Jenn doesn’t like being talked about, but I need to talk about her in order to defend her. It’s not a simple defense though because if it were, I’d probably have to support ChineseMom. I don’t defend out of loyalty to Jenn or ChineseMom; I just defend because I think there’s a misunderstanding here. During the confrontation, I sided more with ChineseMom because ChineseMom had the facts supporting her, but I actually wanted to defend Jenn because I know how angry she gets. It just wasn’t easy given the fact that ChineseMom had knowledge on her side. Please apologize to her, but I have to set the record straight for ChineseMom, Jenn, and all the people who were reading. I would ask you to have Jenn read this, but I have a feeling it would just make her angrier, and fuck, I’m totally at my wits end on how to deal with it.

    I don’t think Jenn lied. I agree with Snoopy. But it’s complicated. I think you, ChineseMom, hammered her with your knowledge of Chinese, and because she doesn’t speak or read Chinese, she felt threatened and lashed out at you without answering the question. She doesn’t like being corrected, so her first reaction is to just repeat what she said (the “lies”), even if it’s not true. Her next reaction is to ban. So you left with the impression that she lied. In actuality, she repeated something that was untrue many times, but it wasn’t that she was deliberately misleading you; it was that she was angry and didn’t have a better way to react. This happens often. She’ll publish a blog post to explain the law, but if a lawyer with actual knowledge of the law comes onto her site to challenge her, buh-ban. She’ll post about Asian men, but if Asian men point stuff out about the Asian male experience…buh-ban. Your knowledge of Chinese culture and Chinese language was just too much of a threat, so…buh-ban.

    By the way, this is probably cultural too. Buh-ban is a cultural trait of the Far Left, of course, and most Asian Americans wouldn’t do that. But I’ll admit that many of us do sometimes feel threatened in the face of greater cultural and historical knowledge. Some of us get over it, but others fight back by claiming knowledge that we just don’t have. You’re in the right here, ChineseMom. But Jenn wasn’t deliberately trying to lie to you. She was just reflexively allowing her anger to direct her actions.

    It’s very difficult, but I think Jenn is actually a good person offline. It’s just that she’s a bit like the Incredible Hulk. “Mr. McGee, you won’t like me when I’m angry.” You and I just have the misfortune of constantly making her angry! 🙂

  57. @Coolao — Without question the perception exists. No one’s denying that. My point is that the perception is not the reality, and when people of color pretend otherwise, problems arise.

    If some men wish to lift weights to improve their condition, I’m all for that, and would consider such activity generally positive. But there are other ways to cope with the perception that Asian American men lack dating opportunity, and not all of them are positive.

    So the solution involves increasing opportunity for Asian American men, while cautioning everyone to shun sexism and misogyny. Muscular guys from every background have a decent social advantage; wealthy guys also do fine. But I think we can both agree that there’s nothing positive about sitting at one’s laptop to type hatespeech against Asian American feminists on Reddit because a blogger once wrote about sexism within the Asian American community.

    That response should be shunned and openly condemned by more people, without anyone endorsing the views of the feminists. Again, no one has to agree with them. But they do not deserved to be doxxed or to have their personal lives dissected because of that disagreement. After years of observing this behavior, all in the name of supporting Asian American male dating opportunities, I lack empathy.

  58. @BigWOWO — You don’t really make her angry. It’s not like that. She wouldn’t have tried so often to include you in her Asian American blog groups if you made her angry. There are no gamma rays here.

    The concern actually mirrors what I said to Coolao. If one reads Dr. King’s Letter from Birmingham Jail, we find that King’s most direct rhetorical assault focused not on staunch segregationists like Bull Connor, but on the White moderate, the reasonable White voter concerned more with social unrest than social justice. If anything, this is the parallel to the problem Asian American feminists like Reappropriate face.

    Most Asian American men are decent guys who recoil at the extreme hatespeech directed toward Asian American women in interracial relationships. Most have no patience for calling someone an ‘Anna Lu’ when they disagree with a blog post, or searching for a woman’s wedding pictures to tally all the Asian men in attendance. But they say nothing.

    Worse, when Asian American feminists describe the constant hatespeech, the rape and death threats, the doxxing, the public insults against their looks, the assumptions about their childhood, personal life, and mental state, the accusations of lying, the total dismissal of their perspectives, and the insinuations that they hate their own people, these decent men respond with a shrug. Women are told to ignore these difficulties as if wishing away hate was ever an effective strategy.

    Women who support affirmative action, oppose sexism, and marry outside the race are no one’s enemy. Most Asian American men, in massive proportion, realize this. But their silence against those in their demographic who do not empower the difficulties feminists like Reappropriate face. It shouldn’t take the response to a minor celebrity like Constance Wu to illustrate the problem with misogyny within your community, BigWOWO.

    Further, none of the other political disagreements change when the moderate Asian American guy opposes misogyny. He may still oppose affirmative action, data disaggregation, and any other progressive idea. He may still deride Asian American feminism. People can disagree with Maxine Hong Kingston and defend David Choe all they like. Actually, it would be easier for men and women both to engage the debate, because women would feel more comfortable speaking directly to those with whom they disagree.

    Case in point: if someone thinks Eliot Roger’s writing has no parallel in Asian American male discourse, that’s worthy of debate with someone like Reappropriate, who found parallels in his manifesto with much of the hatespeech directed her way by disgruntled Asian American men over the years. But that debate can’t happen with people who call her a sellout whore.

    Reappropriate doesn’t exist to curry favor with White people. The blog isn’t there to attack Asian American men. The blog exists to offer perspectives on politics and culture from an Asian American feminist perspective. No one has to agree with it, or support it in any way. But the silence that allows personal, gendered attacks on her life and privacy damns everyone.

    The moderate, reasonable Asian American men who fail to police their number contribute to the obnoxious sexism and misogyny that Reappropriate must confront. If you want to describe Asian American feminists, BigWOWO, you have to discuss this dynamic too.

  59. Byron

    It’s like me. If you said, “Hey Byron, I know your culture because I read Amy Tan and Angry Asian Man and Reappropriate,” I would acknowledge that those other three are also Asian, but I’d have trouble accepting that we’re all part of the same culture. As an umbrella term, a person could accurately link me to the other three by race, but it wouldn’t be an accurate reflection of my actual culture. I probably have more in common with Ben Carson than any of these Asian people. I wouldn’t take responsibility for it because I didn’t do it. And yes, this is an American way of seeing things, but it also makes sense. Should I be apologizing for Reappropriate’s attack on you and other Chinese immigrants? Or should I take responsibility for Amy Tan’s demonization of Asian men or Angry Asian Man’s attack on Lela Lee, stuff that happens all the time in their respective cultures? Why would I do that? None of those things happen with me or those around me. It’s not part of my culture.

    This is good stuff, I love it, preach on brah.

    It’s not that they’re misrepresenting your culture; it’s that they have no understanding of it.

    what’s wrong with Constance or any other feminists speaking for Asian American culture, when you Byron don’t consider yourself as a part of that elite Asian American culture, you consider yourself as your own subculture. Why would you care about what happens to the main Asian Americans culture? Constance or any other feminists are not misrepresenting your culture because they are not trying to speak on behalf of your sub-culture.

    liberal multiculturalism as practiced on college campuses, is quick to claim race-blindness and cultural equality.

    Now if we were to say, “Extreme Liberal College Culture,” I think our powers of prediction go up considerably. You could call it, “Social Justice Warrior Culture” or “Extreme College Liberal Culture.

    yes, I’d agree that he’s got a victim mentality. He and I have argued over this many times. But this is a cultural trait of college liberals of all colors,

    I agree with your views about the far left college liberalism and their victim mentality, it’s toxic.

    But we cannot afford to ignore this problem, Asian American college students fall into this sub-culture too. Asian American college students love online social media platforms to meet many international friends, so their circles are very diversed. Asian American college students are far more Liberals than their parents. They are our children of the future, if we dismiss them as extreme far left SJWs, then we dismiss our Asian American children of the future. That’s not going to help anything.

    What’s the point of doing activism now, if we can’t even help our children. By dismissing them as SJWs, we’re building walls to separate our own sub-cultures from them, not care about our children and dismiss them all as far left SJWs. I don’t see that as an appropriate approach to take in activism for Asian Americans, what’s there to install for our future children? I can’t take the approach of only care for my own children, then what’s the point of activism, I care about the future of Asian American children and it starts with AAPI college students.

    We may not agree with the Asian American college students’ far left liberal views and they maybe SJWs, but we shouldn’t disavow and dismiss all of them. That’s what activism and politics is, it’s to find common solutions to help our people for better AAPI community and its subcultures. Segregations to dismiss, shun, reject and disavow are not practical long term solutions for the future of AAPI community.

    I think Jenn is actually a good person offline. It’s just that she’s a bit like the Incredible Hulk. “Mr. McGee, you won’t like me when I’m angry.” You and I just have the misfortune of constantly making her angry!

    You are right, by not calming down, it’s a trait of an on-and-off angry person or Hulk as you said. And as we’ve determined that anger is a trait of extremism of SJWs.
    Here’s a quote from her:

    Jenn said: “(And for what it’s worth, I don’t think you or any feminist needs to “calm down”. Fuck that condescending shit.)”
    http://reappropriate.co/2016/06/misguided-protesters-target-nycs-chinatown-over-dog-meat-festival-in-china/#comment-2843304844

  60. @snoopy jackson

    You agree that such a perception exists. Care to comment on why you think such a perception might exist? After all, perceptions don’t exist in a vacuum – what forces might be driving AA men to have such perceptions?

    You also state that ” the solution involves increasing opportunity for Asian American men”. What, specifically, do you mean by “increased opportunities for AA men”? What would these increased opportunities involve? In your opinion, what kind of actions would increase opportunities for AA men?

    Lastly, let me make it clear that I don’t particularly care for reddit, don’t spend time there, so I’m not 100% clear what you’re talking about when you refer to AA men who are writing “hatespeech about feminists”. In my opinion, the woes of AA men stem predominantly from white men and their implementations of white supremacy. To that extent, I’m only interested in associating with other AA men (and other people of color) who are interested in antagonizing (or even undermining) whites/ white supremacy / “whiteness”.

  61. Snoopy,

    It’s good to know that Jenn’s not angry. I hope it’s okay if I take all that stuff she said and just write it off as posturing.

    You’ll have to elaborate on the reasons for your concern. Too often the far left takes something minor and blows it way out of proportion. Take, for example, this whole thing over Constance Wu. The only actual evidence I was given was the hapa reddit forum, which can be found here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/hapas/comments/4nlt58/constance_wu_and_her_average_white_boyfriend/?st=is3jbb8o&sh=f55f0dd4

    I heard talk about harassment and rape threats and all sorts of really bad things and how this is supposedly a problem in our community. But does any of this have anything to do with Constance Wu? Did she get harassed? Did anyone send her rape threats? It seems to me that people are using the very human dissatisfaction that humans feel about being excluded because of race and turning this into an Asian feminist Asian-male-bashing party.

    Even now, Snoopy, you’re talking about “hatespeech.” I even had to google “Anna Lu;” I’d never heard of the term before, never seen it before. Does this have anything to do with Constance? Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but it seems like the Far Left will decry anything as “hatespeech” in order to get political advantage. That’s wrong. Counterproductive, yes; but more importantly, wrong.

    Nightown,

    Thanks for the kind words.

    I see it this way: every culture–like every human–does its job. We need the Hollywood Constance Wu types. Somebody has to do that job, and fortunately there are people who love doing that job. I don’t think I could do it. I hope I’m not being too proud by saying that every culture also needs its Ben Efsaneyims and bigWOWOs.

    What Constance does has an effect on your children because her role is visible. Right now, as I think I’ve said before, I think she’s doing everything right. She can’t help what she’s attracted to–and neither can we–but in terms of the message and image, she’s doing everything right.

    As for college extreme liberals, I don’t think the problem is as bad as we think. Extremists like to inflate their numbers, but if I remember my college days, it was a philosophy that was run by a small minority of students who made a disproportionate amount of noise. I know several young people today, and very few of them are as corrupt and morally compromised as the people who are grabbing the headlines these days. But those Shrieking Girls and the BLM people really know how to grab the headlines and crybully and intimidate others, so they look like they’re more common than they really are.

    By the way, the Hulk analogy is good. I’ve noticed that when some people get mad, they’ll lash out at everything. Remember how the Hulk got calm when seeing children? “Fuck that condescending bullshit,” these warriors will calm down for two seconds upon seeing another feminist, but then they’ll go Hulk again until everyone’s in the hospital.

  62. Oh ok, glad we agreed on a couple of issues.

    I was confused about your college students perspective. I thought you overblown it to mean college students culture of all races, when you labelled them as “Extreme College Liberal SJW Culture” and you said “this is a cultural trait of college liberals of all colors”.

    Yeah, the Shrieking Girls and safe spaces kinda reminded me of the countervail polar extremity of the fraternities and sororities.

  63. Geez what’d I miss!!!?!?

    Byron is right. There is no one “Black American Culture” just like there is no one “White American Culture.” The culture of a rich White Wall Street broker is so different from the culture of a White motorcycle gang, or a group of surfers from Newport Beach that you might as well not even try to call them the same “culture.”

    And the other thing is that each individual is the product of a kaleidoscope of cultures. You may certainly be influenced by some kind of ethnic culture, but you will also be influenced by the geographical cultures within the U.S. (East Coast? West Coast? Southern Culture?) You will also be influenced by age cultures and generational cultures. You will be influenced by economic culture, religious culture…

    In the end, there are so many possible combinations of culture that can effect you that pointing to any one of them as THE ONE CULTURE that governs your outcome is, at the same time, naive and myopic. I can understand the need to have a culture to blame, and I’m sorry that it doesn’t exist for you … but it just doesn’t.

    It would be wonderful to be able to say that “Asians do this,” and “Blacks do that,” but they don’t. And even when they do, it’s a complicated melange culture, sub-cultures and circumstances that make the difference possible and apparent. Things are much more complicated than matching one race per one culture and the extrapolating group behaviors (always with a few notable exceptions).

  64. I’ll give a personal example. Chess dad culture. There are a bunch of chess dads whose sons play chess. We all deal with similar issues–questions about academics (which almost all chess dads take seriously), culture (since it’s mostly Chinese, Indians, and Jews), and time (since that’s the one thing we don’t seem to have much of). This really wasn’t part of my culture before a few years back, but when you spend a lot of time together, which we do since the tournaments take all day, you begin to talk and share stuff. As an interesting aside, there are an equal number of Koreans in our area, but they usually don’t encourage their kids to play chess, the same way Chinese usually don’t care about spelling bees and Indians don’t care about Western classical music. Many of these new cultures form because of past legacies–there must be a reason we don’t care about spelling bees–but they’re not the same as the past cultures. I may look more like Kim or Park, but through chess culture I may share a lot more in common with Patel and Cohen. On the other hand, if my kid were as serious about classical Western music as some of the other Chinese kids, we might be more like Kim.

  65. James Lamb and Jenn Fang have no grounds to cry victim.

    The both of them have built up a modus operandi of SLANDERING PEOPLE ON IDEOLOGICAL BASES.

    We see this practice: slandering people based on ideological basis, NOT FACTS, in practice in all the worst moments of human history:

    During the mass murder and persecution of Jews, the slavery of the African captives and their descendents, the Communist pogroms, even the McCarthy trials.

    What happens is that James Lamb and Jenn Fang picks up on something someone or some person did, and then meticulously acts to “shape perception” of that trivia based on emotional “trigger points” or points of doctrine the suggestible have been indoctrinated with in order to create outrage. They target “class” or ideological enemies. They never target individuals unless that said individual is unable to meaningfully defend his or herself.

    All of this is done via elaborate “narratives” or claimed “perspectives” that do not disguise the fact that they are FICTIONS designed solely and only for the feeble-minded to believe.

    What was Jenn Fang’s BASIS for claiming that David Choe was guilty of rape?

    What was Jenn Fang’s BASIS for claiming that Elliot Rodgers – a mixed race adult male who SELF-IDENTIFIED AS WHITE – reflected “Asian misogyny” or “misoglynity”? (What’s up with these stupid new words? Is this the comics, when you can bring to life anything no matter how juvenile and implausible?)

    She depends on the reader to be suggestible.

    We also see a trend here: the headlined and full articles based on ideological slander are written only by Jenn Fang. James Lamb avoids writing any articles of his own. He acts only as the muscle and the enforcer. If anything goes down, even to the terminal end, he can always act as the protester and the defender even as we all know he full well facilitates and enables the things that his wife will go down for.

    This is your appeal, isn’t it, James? You get people into trouble by acting as if you get them out of it. The ends do not matter as long as you get to be the leader of the lemmings, because that’s all you think of people: they are lemmings who all have to choose a camp of what to “believe”… because you place no importance on actual facts and reality.

    Not everything is about you, and for most aspects of life you have no insights to contribute. Depart of your own free will and your passage will be unremembered and unmolested.

  66. Byron,

    What does your “my culture” mean? Who is in your culture besides yourself?

    King,

    It seems in academic and intellectual community, people consider there is ONE Black American (or African-American) culture. https://www.google.com/?ion=1&espv=2#q=black%20american%20culture

    If there were no one Black American culture, then by the same logic, there wouldn’t be one “rich White Wall Street broker” culture, “White motorcycle gang” culture, east coast culture, west coast culture, and etc.

  67. @ chinesemom

    Who is this “academic and intellectual community” that you speak of? If you mean that people often talk in general about “African-American” culture as a blanket term, then yes, that is true. But that doesn’t mean that under that blanket it is all one culture that believes the same, looks the same, or acts the same.

    Yes, in general, one could say that Black people introduced “soul food” to the American menu. But in the very same breath, you could also say that many Black Americans NEVER eat soul food and don’t know how to cook it. You could say that Black Americans invented Jazz music, but you could also say that there are very few jazz clubs that can survive on Black patronage.

    The label of “African-American Culture” is one of convenience, in the same way that we use “American Culture” to describe people who look, believe, and think nothing alike. Surely there are some universals and shibboleths, but in the main, we are wholly separate in our practice of culture across the country. The difference between a country music singer in Tennessee and a cab driver in New Jersey might as well be a whole different country.

    So it doesn’t make sense to say to one person with dark skin, “why don’t you get control of those other dark-skinned people over there who are doing crime of having too many children. You see, having dark skin HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING ABLE TO CONTROL OTHER DARK-SKINNED PEOPLE. Neither are all dark-skinned people responsible for the actions of the others.

    I realize that I have said this to you many times, and that you have not been able to comprehend it in as many times. But let us try again… I have no power over the behavior of other people with dark skin. I can’t control dark-skinned people in India, or Australia, or New Guinea, of even in the United States. My skin tone gives me absolutely NO POWER to over them to change their behavior. Therefore, talking to me (or any other dark-skinned person) as if I can somehow be responsible for them is a fool’s errand. I can only be responsible for myself. Forget about that idea,

  68. ChineseMom,

    What King said.

    There are lots of people in my culture, but it depends on what culture you’re talking about. If you’re talking about my online culture, that would include people like you, Ben, Sengge, King, and Kobu. Even though he doesn’t believe in logic or concrete fact, it would also include Snoopy (although maybe it’s more accurate to say that he’s part of my counterculture since he argues with whatever I say, no matter how much logic supports me). If you’re talking about my day to day culture, it would be primarily Chinese, Vietnamese, and Indian American elementary school parents who live in ethnoburbs. If you’re talking about chess, it would be chess dads. There are lots of us not only in Portland but across the country. If you’re talking about my ethnic cultural lineage, it’s Southern Chinese New York culture.

    But race isn’t what determines my culture. I have lots of Asian American Facebook friends who are public school teachers and liberal academics, and that’s not my culture. The values and vision are not the same, even if we’re Facebook friends and cordial acquaintances. Many of the people in thesei cultures have never been 100 feet from poverty and look down on the private sector. I don’t blame them; I’d be the same if I were part of their culture, but it’s not me. First gen Chinese immigrants isn’t really my culture, since I don’t participate in the WeChat or 1st gen organizations. Plus, most of my business is conducted in English. So I don’t really buy the idea that there’s one Asian American culture, the same way I don’t believe there’s one African American culture.

  69. King and Byron,

    I think our understanding of the word “culture” is quite different, this resulted the other differences.
    Culture: b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group;
    My understanding of this dictionary definition is that “culture” is associated with group of people, it’s not for the convenience, it is by the definition. Because of this , when there is a category of people, then there is a culture is associated with is. That is why we have “Chinese culture”, “American culture”, Google culture, and etc.
    I can’t believe that I need to come back to this definition again and again.

    King,
    .

    You see, having dark skin HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING ABLE TO CONTROL OTHER DARK-SKINNED PEOPLE. Neither are all dark-skinned people responsible for the actions of the others.

    I don’t know where did you get this idea, I have never said any thing close to this.

    Byron,

    I think If you’re talking about my online culture, that would include people like you, Ben, Sengge, King, and Kobu.

    If there were no ONE Black American culture, then by the same logic, there wouldn’t be ONE “bigwowo online culture”. I’m quite different from you, Sengge, King and others, remember that I called Sengge the “barking dog”?:)

  70. So before we talk about the culture, we have to identify the group of people first, like Southern Chinese New York, Chess dad, “rich White Wall Street broker”, “White motorcycle gang”, east coast, west coast culture, for example. There is no such thing as ChineseMom culture, Byron culture or King culture, because we are individuals, we don’t form a culture just by ourselves.

    But as an individual, a person could be very different from the culture that he/she is supposed to be part of. Remember I once said that I don’t think Jenn isn’t Chinese culturally?

  71. I accept who I am and take full responsibility for my culture, good or bad. It is my responsibility to explain to others that I’m not a Japanese

    we are eager to improve ourselves and taking responsibility for ourselves instead of blaming everything on others. If this lead to anti-blackness impressions, so be it.

    I wouldn’t take responsibility for Japanese culture, but neither would I blame other for not being able to tell the difference and treat me as if I were a Japanese. I don’t have the sense of entitlement. It is my responsibility to explain to others that I’m not a Japanese.

    The above texts are all I said about “responsibility”. I don’t understand how people can interpret what I said as I think a dark-skinned person should “get control of those other dark-skinned people over there who are doing crime of having too many children”, having dark skin has anything “TO DO WITH BEING ABLE TO CONTROL OTHER DARK-SKINNED PEOPLE” or “all dark-skinned people responsible for the actions of the others”. But I found minorities in this country who are influenced by the victimhood culture tend to interpret things this way.

  72. “Significantly, individuals within communities create their own culture,” said Cristina De Rossi, an anthropologist at Barnet and Southgate College in London. Culture includes religion, food, style, language, marriage, music, morals and many other things that make up how a group acts and interacts.
    http://www.livescience.com/28823-chinese-culture.html

    Because “individuals within communities create their own culture”, I reached the conclusion several years ago that I should take the responsibility to improve my culture (which is Chinese) no matter how powerless I am. I also fully aware that my action as an individual will influence other people’s view of Chinese and Chinese culture, even though this influence is very limited. This is what I meant when I said that “I take full responsibility for my culture”. This way of thinking maybe very hard to be understand and accepted by people bathed in victimhood culture but is prevalent among Chinese from China.

  73. I think I see where Chinesemom is coming from. Personally, I think if cultures are diced up too finely, then I don’t really think of these “subcultures” as cultures anymore. I think generally, you can acquire a culture by up bringing (assuming your family lives life and preaches a life philosophy more or less consistence with their heritage) or you live (and breathe) a lifestyle that is uniquely different than say the average middle-class smuck. Examples are celebrity entertainers, professional athletes, politicians, hardcore environmentalists and monks Within those cultures I would imagine there are many, many life issues, nuiances and philosophies that are unique tho them and that the average person would find difficult to grasp without tons and tons explanation.

    As for race, of course that is a very poor indicator of common culture. The blacks here in Toronto pretty well act like fellow POC. They tend to be humble and tend not to draw too much attention to themselves. I can’t say I understand american inner-city black culture but the blacks in Toronto are majority immigrants from the Caribbean and don’t behave anything like those portrayed in hollywood anyways.

  74. All of this hoopla over how people can logically define other cultures illustrates the absurdity of using culture to describe people in the first place. The cultural determinism arguments often used on this site have little use if consistent cultural definitions cannot be agreed upon.

  75. ChineseMom,

    If there were no ONE Black American culture, then by the same logic, there wouldn’t be ONE “bigwowo online culture”. I’m quite different from you, Sengge, King and others, remember that I called Sengge the “barking dog”?:)

    No, because one divides by activity and interest, and the other divides by race. Believe it or not, there are Asians who couldn’t care less about sites like this one. There are Asians who don’t read literature, including Asians who run other online blogs. There are Black people who don’t care about DeRay McKesson or Jesse Jackson.

    I think most of the objection comes from this statement:

    We Asian immigrants are ingrained with Asian values which are the opposite from Black American culture in my observations: we extremely anti-violence, anti-single motherhood, we value academic and hard-working, we don’t have any entitlement, we are eager to improve ourselves and taking responsibility for ourselves instead of blaming everything on others. If this lead to anti-blackness impressions, so be it.

    While it’s true that most Asian immigrants probably do come from cultures that stress academics and look down on victimology, how can you say that it’s the “opposite” of Black American culture if Black American culture doesn’t share a common behavioral or even historical thread? There are lots of Black people who don’t practice victimology. Lots of them. But you’re taking Snoopy’s culture (victimology, affirmative action, and safe spaces for the rich and entitled) and inner city culture (violence and single-motherhood) and applying it to “Black Culture.” It’s just not accurate.

  76. ChineseMom,

    Because “individuals within communities create their own culture”, I reached the conclusion several years ago that I should take the responsibility to improve my culture (which is Chinese) no matter how powerless I am. I also fully aware that my action as an individual will influence other people’s view of Chinese and Chinese culture, even though this influence is very limited. This is what I meant when I said that “I take full responsibility for my culture”. This way of thinking maybe very hard to be understand and accepted by people bathed in victimhood culture but is prevalent among Chinese from China.

    I totally understand this. I think I somewhat feel the same when it comes to Chinese culture.

    I think it’s one thing to say what you just said. I think people can understand stereotypes and how they don’t want to make their people look bad (with the exception of Snoopy, who decries “respectability politics” whenever the subject comes up.).

    But that’s entirely different from saying that you’re part of the same culture. You wrote:

    But as an individual, a person could be very different from the culture that he/she is supposed to be part of. Remember I once said that I don’t think Jenn isn’t Chinese culturally?

    Well, why do you think you’re part of the same culture? You may both be Chinese, but your values AND ways of life are completely different. It’s not just the difference in how you view Peter Liang or affirmative racism; it’s everything. You speak Chinese. You read Chinese. You talk to lots of other Chinese people. Your people are probably more numerous than hers. You have knowledge of the motherland that she doesn’t have. But that’s not to say that her numbers aren’t big either, nor is it to say that you know everything that she knows. She has lots of contacts in the college community and in the media. She knows how to organize speaking engagements and other outreach programs. She has an American liberal arts education, which is something you don’t have. As you saw from the affirmative action thing, she knows how to get the message out, even if the message is completely inaccurate.

    You may come from the same origin, but you’re COMPLETELY different.

    So if I said something like, “Look, Asian Americans are not honest. I don’t come from that culture. Look at this Ramakrishnan character.” I could say that, and I could point to any of several extreme liberal Asian American publications as backup where they clearly lied, even after being confronted.

    Would you then say that it’s part of Asian American or Chinese American culture to LIE? You can “take responsibility” for that, but I don’t think you would say that lying is in fact part of your culture–because it’s NOT. You could say that there are some Asian people who lie, but you wouldn’t say that that was part of your culture.

  77. I think maybe a better question is this: What would an honest person from that extreme liberal culture say when confronted with Ramakrishnan’s “survey?”

    Most likely they would acknowledge that it’s a problem, that it was, in fact, a lie. If you showed them more examples, they might point out that maybe lying is a problem. maybe more widespread than it should be. They’d do what Michael Nutter said about inner city culture or what Ben Carson says. But they’d call it a problem, something that needs to be fixed, and then they’d work on fixing it. They wouldn’t call it a part of their culture.

  78. Let’s put this another way: there’s a difference between a stereotype and a culture.

    Going back to the OP, it’s possible to fall in love with a culture. It’s possible to hate a culture. But it’s also possible to mistake a stereotype for a culture.

  79. Byron,

    As I said before, our understanding of the word “culture” is quite different, this resulted other differences.
    how can you say that it’s the “opposite” of Black American culture if Black American culture doesn’t share a common behavioral or even historical thread?
    In my view, majority Black-Americans do share certain common behavioral and historical thread. If majority of a group have something in common, then that something becomes the group’s cultural trait. For example, probably overwhelming majority Black people in this country don’t consider Mike Brown as a “thug” and feel nothing wrong with Obama sending three delegates to his funeral, while most people from Chinese culture probably will think the opposite. This is the cultural differences.

  80. Can you tell me which one is really biology, ecology or microbiology? One can look at culture on different levels. They are all valid, and more relativistic than deterministic. Over time groups and issues changes, and individuals shift focus. By looking at different levels, it can help one see a bigger picture and context within a given situation.

    Also it really isn’t a big surprise that an immigrant would tend to place emphasis on contrasts on macroscopic levels, while those that aren’t see contrasts on smaller group levels.

  81. The blockquote thing messed up, I have to repost the above post.

    Byron,

    As I said before, our understanding of the word “culture” is quite different, this resulted other differences.

    how can you say that it’s the “opposite” of Black American culture if Black American culture doesn’t share a common behavioral or even historical thread?

    In my view, majority Black-Americans do share certain common behavioral and historical thread. If majority of a group have something in common, then that something becomes the group’s cultural trait. For example, probably overwhelming majority Black people in this country don’t consider Mike Brown as a “thug” and feel nothing wrong with Obama sending three delegates to his funeral, while most people from Chinese culture probably will think the opposite. This is the cultural differences.

  82. A few questions:

    1. How do you know the majority of Black Americans support Mike Brown? Seriously…I know there are bad “surveys” (like Rama’s survey), but I don’t even think anyone did a survey on this one. You saw lots of black people in the streets protesting, but again, just because the louder people make more noise, doesn’t necessarily mean that’s a majority.

    2. So do the majority of Black Americans commit violence? Do a majority believe in victimization? These were the specifics that were brought up previously.

    Again, I think you’re going by a stereotype here. Do you see what I’m saying?

  83. Jman raises a good point. If you volunteered in the inner city, you probably saw some pretty bad stuff. But there’s more to see outside the inner city.

  84. Also, for something to be part of a culture, I think it has to be much greater than just a simple majority. For example, in the U.S., from the stats I’ve seen, most people are Democrats. But you can’t say that the democratic platform or being a democrat is part of American culture–there are just too many people who aren’t. Most people are White in the U.S., but I don’t think you can say that being White is a part of American culture either. It needs to be overwhelming in order to be a cultural trait. For example, in Japanese culture, people take off their shoes before going into their homes. It’s far more than 50% of them!

  85. @ chinesemom

    “In my view, majority Black-Americans do share certain common behavioral and historical thread. If majority of a group have something in common, then that something becomes the group’s cultural trait.”

    I would echo Byron’s question. How can you figure out what the majority of African-Americans think or do? I can’t do that myself, and I’m African-American. And I’m not saying that there are NO ties between Blacks in the U.S. For instance, the majority of us vote Democrat. I’m aware there are other things as well, but none of those things formulate to make a single culture.

  86. Byron and King,

    There is a method called “statistical sampling”,if used correctly, we can draw conclusions about a large population just by surveying of a few sample of that population. Those public opinion polls all use this kind of method. I have my way of taking samples and to reach my conclusions.

    Byron,

    How do you know the majority of Black Americans support Mike Brown?

    I have never said “majority of Black Americans support Mike Brown”. I’m not sure what your “support” means here. Don’t consider MB as a “thug” is different from supporting him or his behavior.

    So do the majority of Black Americans commit violence?

    Again, I’ve never said that and it is not my opinion.

    Do a majority believe in victimization?

    I would say this is probably true, at least among educated Blacks. Well, your definition of “victimization” is probably different from mine though.

  87. Byron,

    Also, for something to be part of a culture, I think it has to be much greater than just a simple majority. For example, in the U.S., from the stats I’ve seen, most people are Democrats. But you can’t say that the democratic platform or being a democrat is part of American culture–there are just too many people who aren’t. Most people are White in the U.S., but I don’t think you can say that being White is a part of American culture either. It needs to be overwhelming in order to be a cultural trait.

    Again, this comes to the definition of the word “culture”. I think your two examples are bad. Democrat is a political organization, Even if 100% of American people are Democrats, you still can’t say being a democrat is part of American culture. “White” is a race. Being White isn’t something people can choose, so it can’t be part of a culture.

  88. Saying “I have my way of taking samples and to reach my conclusions,” sounds like there is a lack of objectivity. If that is the way it appears to you that is fine, however, it doesn’t sound like you really have a great idea what it means in the context of the group your making conclusions about. Since they seem so superficial, I don’t know if those conclusions are very useful.

  89. ChineseMom displays the inherent problems that arise when some people use cultural determinism to discuss other groups. She clearly does not intend ill will toward African Americans, but cannot discuss them without using foul stereotypes. Her only frames of reference for what she associates with cultural Blackness involve single parenting, violence, and ‘victimhood’. This is tragic and mistaken, but common when people rely on stereotypes as anthropology.

    But you’re taking Snoopy’s culture (victimology, affirmative action, and safe spaces for the rich and entitled) and inner city culture (violence and single-motherhood) and applying it to “Black Culture.” It’s just not accurate. — BigWOWO

    You must be trolling me.

    In no sense is your quote accurate, BigWOWO. None. You’ve no evidence at all for it, and it’s needlessly combative to boot. Support for affirmative action and recognition of the historical and current injuries imposed on people of color through institutional racism and systemic bias is not victimology. Further, I’ve never asked for safe spaces for anyone. Hell, I take you on here.

    So no, what’s clear here is that people here can’t have a discussion about ‘culture’ without describing cultures in broad and unwieldy terms. This presents ripe opportunity for stereotypes, as ChineseMom’s contributions to this conversation illustrate.

    She refuses to accept the patient rebukes of Black stereotypes you and King offer; she clearly cannot conceive of Black people as anything other than violent, promiscuous criminals. That hate was taught to her, and cultural determinism justifies, in her mind, further propagation of that hate. You should reevaluate your support for cultural determinism, BigWOWO. It obviously does not help.

  90. If we can’t even understand or accept the dictionary definition of the word “culture”, of course this kind discussion won’t go anywhere and can only be superficial. And what is the point for me to explain the statistical method I used if people have difficulties to understand the word “culture”?

  91. And I kind of understand why people can’t accept the dictionary definition of the word “culture”. Once you accept, you have to give up a lot of the liberal brainwashing, to think deep and sort things through. Otherwise, you will sound like a “racist” to those bathed in victimhood culture.

  92. @snoopy jenkins

    Would like to hear your response as to why the perception exists among AA men. Your prior response indicated that you believe such a perception does exist, but you never answered my original question: why would such a perception exist?

  93. Racists Jenn Fang and her partner in crime hate it when someone like Chinesemom laced the Black culture with stereotypes. However, they had no qualms with lacing Asian American men with stereotypes like Misogylinity and Sexism, eventhough in reality most Asian American males (including myself) do not practice such disdain for AFs and feminists dating out of race. There is a small segment of AM masculinity men online who practice this and they have some problems with AFs who date out. Those small segment of AMs by no means represent all of Asian American males, not even close.

    Of course those two at reappropriate.co are hypocrites and don’t practice what they preach, they spin their hardliner titles and articles to pin the tails on the Asian men to lump garbage sexists like Elliot Rodger to represent us, that’s lowest of the low denominator, they are low-key racists.

  94. ChineseMom,

    Why do you think we’re not accepting the dictionary definition? The dictionary says “Culture: b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group.” It doesn’t say that different races necessarily share beliefs, social forms, or material traits. Sometimes they do. But not in the U.S.

    “Again, this comes to the definition of the word “culture”. I think your two examples are bad. Democrat is a political organization, Even if 100% of American people are Democrats, you still can’t say being a democrat is part of American culture. “White” is a race. Being White isn’t something people can choose, so it can’t be part of a culture.”

    I think both examples are good. If 100% of American people register Democrat, then why wouldn’t that be a “material trait?” Race sometimes is linked to culture. For example, it’s hard to say that you’re culturally Japanese unless you’re also racially Japanese. It’s arguable that the same is true among the Chinese. This is also a “material trait” and due to a “social form” that sees race as culture, in no small part because nearly all Japanese are racially Japanese and over 90% of Chinese are racially Chinese.

    So yes, if this were Japan, we could probably make some statements linking race and culture. Nearly everyone in Japan got to Japan the same way, and they nearly all have black hair and say “itadakimasu” before they eat. But here, that’s not the case. Black culture is just way too diverse in this country to be categorized within a single term like “Black Culture.

  95. Snoopy,

    You must be trolling me.

    Aight, you’re right. I was trolling you when I was talking about affirmative action and entitlements. Those are more opinions than culture. But I don’t think I’m entirely inaccurate when accusing you of victimology. You very rarely post anything about solutions that Black people can do themselves, nor do you post anything about actual solutions that White people can help with. I think this is a mindset that you have, and I think it’s shared among many.

    See what I wrote above to ChineseMom. I never thought ChineseMom was a cultural determinist, nor am I one myself. But I do think that cultures are REAL, which is why I wrote the OP. I think you and I and everyone else on this planet reacts to culture. No one is free from the influence of culture. I think ChineseMom believes that cultures are real too; it’s just that the Far Left is so loud in perpetuating THEIR worldview which are steeped in stereotype that she hasn’t seen enough of the other side. She probably doesn’t realize how many Kings and Oshays are out there, mostly because the Far Left has been so effective in drowning out those voices.

    Also, the more I think about it, many cultures probably have a significant link between race and culture. I think it might even be true in most national cultures. It’s basically just the Americas, France, and Britain. I think most of the others have some kind of link. So in many ways, our categorization might be the exception rather than the rule.

  96. Actually, that’s kind of profound if you think about it. A Japanese can become American, but an American cannot become Japanese unless that American is already racially Japanese (and just being Asian doesn’t count).

    That’s an interesting asymmetry. A Japanese person can fall in love with American culture and want to become an American. If an American falls in love with Japanese culture, he does so knowing that he will never become Japanese.

  97. Byron,

    I don’t think race and democratic party can be classified as material trait of a culture.

    Material and Non‐Material Culture

    Sociologists describe two interrelated aspects of human culture: the physical objects of the culture and the ideas associated with these objects.

    Material culture refers to the physical objects, resources, and spaces that people use to define their culture. These include homes, neighborhoods, cities, schools, churches, synagogues, temples, mosques, offices, factories and plants, tools, means of production, goods and products, stores, and so forth. All of these physical aspects of a culture help to define its members’ behaviors and perceptions. For example, technology is a vital aspect of material culture in today’s United States. American students must learn to use computers to survive in college and business, in contrast to young adults in the Yanomamo society in the Amazon who must learn to build weapons and hunt.

    Non‐material culture refers to the nonphysical ideas that people
    https://www.cliffsnotes.com/study-guides/sociology/culture-and-societies/material-and-nonmaterial-culture

  98. Culture is created by people in that culture. Japanese people did not create Japanese race.

  99. Also, I think perhaps that there is some misunderstanding upthread of how “The Black Culture” sees Michael Brown. In most of the conversations that I have participated in or witnessed (both in person and online) Black people see what Michael Brown did as wrong. I really haven’t heard anybody saying that there was no problem with Michael Brown’s stealing cigars from the convenience store. The BIG ISSUE among Black people was the belief that he was later shot while unarmed. As it turned out, he was struggling for the officer’s weapon when he was shot.

    As for not calling Michael Brown a “thug” I think the disconnect with many Blacks is that this term seems to only apply to one race. For example, Ryan Lochte may be disliked for vandalizing a gas station in Rio (and then lying about it). But nobody has called him a “thug.” In fact, a few weeks later he is being cast on Dancing With The Stars –
    https://www.yahoo.com/gma/dwts-2016-celebrity-cast-revealed-ryan-lochte-amber-123029354–abc-news-tv.html

    I think the problem that many Blacks had with calling Michael Brown a thug, based on his stealing cigars, is that it is inconsistent with what is done when White people do similar and even worse things.

    http://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-library/justin-bieber/

    It’s not because Blacks think that stealing cigars is excusable. They just believe that the label is selective and inconsistently applied almost exclusively to Black people.

  100. ChineseMom,

    I think you’re right about the Democratic Party thing. It’s not a material trait, nor is it really part of culture, since it’s part of a legal process. I was thinking about how just about 100% of American men register for the draft. That’s not culture; that’s the law. So yes, I think you’re right.

    I think that for what you’ve said about Black Culture (violence, Michael Brown, single motherhood), you’re talking about values, so you’re actually referencing part c of the definition rather than part b:

    a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations
    b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time
    c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization
    d : the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic

    So maybe we’re both using it wrong. Chinese culture isn’t an “institution or organization,” nor is there a Black Man’s Organization that votes on whether or not they should reduce the crime rate or raise it in the inner city. If we were to say of Chinese culture that filial piety is a part of Chinese culture, that would be a value more than a belief or social form, but I might be using it wrong. Actually, I think I am using it wrong. It might be more accurate to say that it’s a “traditional Chinese value” rather than it’s part of culture. Arguably, these values are disappearing.

    I would still say that race has something to do with Japanese culture; maybe it’s included in this: “the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life) shared by people in a place or time.” The race is part of the homogeneity that the Japanese respect, although the Japanese are by no means homogeneous. Maybe it too is a value, and maybe values are not part of culture. It seems to me now that we’re both using it wrong when we’re talking about values or political positions rather than beliefs, although I think my points in the OP still stand–if it’s something like talking endlessly about victimology, then it’s gone beyond a mere value and has crossed into the realm of a feature of everyday existence.

    Let’s think about this more.

  101. King,

    Here are some dictionaries definition of the word “thug”:
    Full Definition of thug: a brutal ruffian or assassin
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thug
    1.a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/thug
    a man who acts violently, esp. a criminal:
    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/thug

    To me, the way Mike Brown robbed that convenience store is cruel and violent, fits the definition of the word “thug”. Did Ryan Lochte or Justin Bieber act violently while committing the wrong doing?

    I don’t think that term only applied to one race. Here is a white man being call the thug:
    https://www.google.com/?ion=1&espv=2#q=Corey+Lewandowski+thug

  102. And King’s explanation prove once more that my views on Black culture is correct.

  103. Here is what I’ve said about Black culture regarding violence and single motherhood:
    We Asian immigrants are ingrained with Asian values which are the opposite from Black American culture in my observations: we extremely anti-violence, anti-single motherhood, we value academic and hard-working, we don’t have any entitlement, we are eager to improve ourselves and taking responsibility for ourselves instead of blaming everything on others. If this lead to anti-blackness impressions, so be it.
    ——–
    Actually, those three have everything to do with Snoopy and partly with King. Snoopy clearly have that victimhood mentality, is very tolerant to crimes, criminals and single-motherhood by my standards (or Asian standards). We Asian immigrants are completely in opposite.

    What I meant here is that from my observation of Black culture, people’s attitudes toward violence and teen single-motherhood are much more laxer and tolerant compare to Chinese culture. I found this through several shocking personal experiences in the first year that I landed in this country. These first impressions were reinforced and proved numerous times over the year though many other personal experienced and the media. These observations, impressions and conclusions weren’t from stereotypes or my volunteering in inner-city schools, but from Black leaders and middle class Black people like Snoopy.

    Snoopy’s anger over my calling Mike Brown a “thug” is the proof, Jenn’s defending of MB’s robbery and call me a racist is the proof, Obama’s delegates and many Black dignitary’s present at MB’s funeral is the proof, the status that MB’s parent’s got in Black community is the proof,…, and news like this is the proof too:

    Mayor de Blasio has “full faith” in his wife’s chief of staff — even though the top aide is dating a convicted killer who slammed police as “pigs” on social media.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mayor-de-blasio-full-faith-wife-aide-rachel-noerdlinger-ex-con-boyfriend-article-1.1954614

    Rachel Noerdlinger, the former aide to First Lady Chirlane McCray, kept her ex-con boyfriend in the loop as City Hall crafted its response to the firestorm that erupted when it was revealed she was dating a convicted killer.
    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rachel-noerdlinger-ex-con-boyfriend-updated-troubles-article-1.2133232

    In contrast, White people called Corey Lewandowski a thug. I think it is safe to say that this lax attitude toward crimes and criminals is unique to Black culture.

    Please remember, this is only my observations and impressions, and is only relative to other cultures. I have never said anything about my judgement here. We can’t even past the definition of the simple words or accept the simple facts, it is hard for these kind of discussions to go anywhere.

  104. Did Ryan Lochte or Justin Bieber act violently while committing the wrong doing? — ChineseMom

    You’re kidding, right?

    The entire point of the recent Ryan Lochte controversy, was that he engaged in boorish behavior that resulted in property damage, and then lied about that behavior in such manner as to elicit mainstream American sympathy. Lochte’s White privilege taught him that he could rip up other people’s property, tearing doors off hinges and urinating in gas station aisles, without fear of prosecution or damaged reputation, so long as he told American media that Rio’s criminal element threatened his body. He’s the present-day poster child for the colloquialism ‘ugly American’.

    ChineseMom, the simple fact that an thirty-two year old adult like Ryan Lochte is not automatically considered a thug in your estimation while Michael Brown, a teenager three months past his eighteenth birthday must be a thug — as you insist — displays the overt prejudice with which you interpret other people. This is the double standard justice to which King alluded above.

    Look, no one here enjoys any obligation to respect Black people, or even maintain impartiality and open-mindedness when debating Black people. But the overt lack of consistency with which some here dismiss Black people as overtly criminal, promiscuous and morally difficult is absurd and tragic. Black stereotypes say nothing about Black cultures; they speak only to the prejudice within those who believe the stereotypes accurate.

  105. Snoopy,

    Do you have trouble to understand dictionary’s definition of the word “thug”?

  106. Snoopy,

    Here is something for your delicate self-esteem, hope it can make you feel good about Black American culture.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vRcHrI3wj8

    I posted it in my Wechat group to show my friends in China that Green is the product of Black American culture, he is much better and smarter than that stupid Chinese reporter who is the product of Chinese culture.

  107. ChineseMom,

    You were the one who just corrected me. Opinion, values, and political positions are not culture. Even if 100% of Black people believe that Michael Brown isn’t a thug (and that’s not the case–check out Oshay’s videos), that’s not culture. That’s an opinion.

    Green may be the product of his own culture (whether it’s “Black” is what we’re debating), but I can’t see how his opinion on a subject is anything other than his own opinion. Do all people in his neighborhood speak like he does and express the exact same opinion using the exact same words?

    I happen to agree with you, ChineseMom, on Lochte vs. Brown. It’s the nature of the crime–no one calls Jon Jones a “thug” because all his crimes outside of the Octagon are non-violent, while they do call Lewandowski a thug because he assaulted a reporter. But your opinion, my opinion, King’s opinion, and Snoopy’s opinion are just that–they’re just opinions of individuals. You’ll find people of all colors on both sides of the debate. You can’t link it to culture, not unless you apply the dictionary definition to an institution or organization, which is what we’re doing when we talk about college liberalism. But you can’t apply it to an entire race. Neither the dictionary nor our common usage supports that.

  108. Byron,

    I think value-system definitely is part of a culture. Christianity isn’t just a religious belief, but also a value- or moral- system. Confucianism isn’t a religious belief, but is a value-system which is the most important part of traditional Chinese culture.

    Here is Cambridge’s definition of the word “culture”:
    the way of life of a particular people, esp. as shown in their ordinary behavior and habits, their attitudes toward each other, and their moral and religious beliefs:
    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/culture

  109. @ chinesemom

    I dunno… Would you consider damaging a gas station with your bare hands violent?

    iIn August 2014 Bieber was charged with reckless driving and resisting arrest, that sounds violent to me. BIeber ordered his body guard to get a photo that a photographer took of him. THis resulted in the photographer being put in a chokehold. Sounds violent to me. August 29 20014 Bieber was arrested for and charged with dangerous driving ants assault after he collided his car into a minivan full of people in Stratford Ontario. BIeber was charged with attacking his limousine driver while in Toronto December 30th 2007…

    If you were hoping for some way out, forget about it.
    It is exactly what it looks like—whites do not get called thugs and there is NO DIFFERECE in behavior.

  110. Lochte, Bieber = entitled assholes, ugly americans (even though Bieber is Canadian)
    Brown, Lewandowski = thugs

  111. Opinion and political positions are not culture, but they reflect the underline value- or moral-system of the culture. From a person’s opinion, I can tell his/her underline value set.

    I used Green as an example to show my friend in China the weakness of current Chinese culture compare to the West. Green reflects American culture(good at communication and public relations, caring for public good, etc.) and the abilities of a Black athlete. Top Chinese athletes can’t talk like him.

  112. @King
    Unfortunately the perception of physical power counts as well. We’ve all come to think of Bieber as a little weenie who most male adults can beat up. Doesn’t matter if this is actually true or not. Unless he attacked a little girl or someone physically handicapped the thug imagery just doesn’t come up for me. It would be the same thing had Michael Jackson attacked his driver, it would be similarly difficult to think of him as a thug. I would assume that they were showing off there celebrity privilege and power.

  113. ChineseMom, this is not about feelings. This conversation revolves around the just usage of cultural explanations for individual behavior.

    I have long maintained that observers cannot find explanation for individual behavior in culture. Many here disagree. Amid this disagreement ChineseMom, your repeated associations between Blacks and single motherhood, criminality, and victimhood prove as false and misleading and racist as your usual insistence that Chinese people prove to be hard-working, academic, non-entitled people, “eager to improve ourselves and taking responsibility for ourselves instead of blaming everything on others” as you put it.

    These are all clearly stereotypes, model minority mythology used to further establish Blacks as fundamentally deficient and Chinese and fundamentally preferable in an American context. ChineseMom, you paint Blacks as thugs and Chinese as scholars. This prejudiced thinking on your part illustrates the inherent difficulty posed when people follow BigWOWO’s lead and explain individual behavior through cultural explanations. Your arguments clearly differ from BigWOWO’s position, but both display tacit acceptance of cultural determinism.

    To my mind, culture arguments require a belief in unexplainable phenomena to justify human action. I find this reliance suspect. There is no reason to lean on the evidence of things not seen when that which we can measure proves so compelling. Culture arguments suppose that the material conditions faced by individuals and/ or groups prove less important than the cultures that emerge among people, even when those persons respond to the material conditions they face with behavior outsiders view as cultural attributes.

    A perfect example of this is the practice of sagging pants in urban communities. When I was a child, sagging pants was touted in mainstream circles as overt disrespect for basic propriety, a visual indication of Black ignorance and criminality. We were told that the practice emerged from prison culture, where men sagged their pants and exposed their posteriors to signify homosexuality. In truth, the answer is poverty. Poor women could not afford new jeans from their male children regularly, so they purchased pants two and three sizes too large to allow growth in their children.

    This, of course, led to children in oversized, and often sagging pants in low income urban areas. Now, cultural determinists often responded to poverty stricken Black boys with wagging fingers and stern tones. “Look at these uncultured youth, sagging their pants,” they would say. “Notice how Black culture has failed these children.” But Black culture has nothing to do with those pants. Loss of manufacturing jobs and other low educational attainment manual labor positions in urban centers (and therefore, the loss of the family income that accompanies such employment) did affect urban fashion.

    The point? Culture fails to explain what material observation can. Culture arguments are a poor substitute for sociology, and in the hands of bigots like ChineseMom, they are no more than a license to offend.

  114. King,

    Would you consider damaging a gas station with your bare hands violent?

    In August 2014 Bieber was charged with reckless driving and resisting arrest, that sounds violent to me.

    Clearly, our understanding of the word “thug” is quite different. I consider somebody who act violently or brutally toward their innocent victim(s) is a thug, no matter what race he is. I believe this is the meaning of those dictionaries definition of the word “thug”.

    I didn’t follow Lochte news closely and have never cared about Bieber. Why did Lochte damage the gas station? Was he trying to intimidate or beating up some innocent person? I didn’t see anything mentioned on the site that you provided. If he did, then he is a thug.

    For Bieber, was he ever convicted for those alleged assaults? From what you described, It is not clear to me that his act fit the definition of “thug”.

  115. @ chinesemom.

    – Attacking your limo driver is an innocent victim.
    – Hurting people by smashing into them with their your car which is being driven above the speed limit and recklessly are also innocent victims.

    There is no difference in our definitions.

  116. Haha king,

    You got me there. I don’t follow the dude and he looked nothing like that in his younger days.

  117. mmjames,

    I agree. Also, it only fits certain crimes and victims have to be innocent and powerless. So, violently resisting police arrest doesn’t necessarily make somebody a thug.

  118. Oh BTW King,

    Not sure why the picture of Snoop-dogg was added but the dude is 6’4. Bieber is a still a little shit and wouldn’t last 10 sec against Snoop-dog in a fight.

  119. King,

    – Attacking your limo driver is an innocent victim.
    – Hurting people by smashing into them with their your car which is being driven above the speed limit and recklessly are also innocent victims.

    As I said before, just by these description, I can’t tell. Was he convicted any of these? Was the limo driver completely innocent and physically powerless relative to him? Driving above the speed limit and recklessly does not necessarily make a person a thug.

  120. @ chinesemom

    I think you are confusing the terms “thug” and “bully.” there is no requirement that the person whom you use violence against be helpless in order to be defined as a thug.

    FIrst you said the threshold was violence. SO when I demonstrate the Lochte and BIeber were violent, then you say the violence must be against an innocent victim. So then when I point out that Beiber attacked his limousine driver now we have to know exactly how much the driver weighed and what he looked like. THis is the very definition of “moving the goalposts” in order to hang on the a precious though thoroughly discredited theory.

  121. I think “thug” usually applies to people doing the actual physical violence. And it has to be intentional. Someone who orders a hit isn’t a thug; the people who do the hit are thugs, as in, “That mob boss sent his thugs to do the dirty work!”. I don’t think most people know about Bieber and the limousine driver. If they knew about that, maybe they’d see him as a thug. Jon Jones did the same thing with his car–he smashed into the car of a pregnant woman. People don’t call Jones a thug because they don’t see it as intentional.

    ChineseMom:

    Opinion and political positions are not culture, but they reflect the underline value- or moral-system of the culture. From a person’s opinion, I can tell his/her underline value set.

    I used Green as an example to show my friend in China the weakness of current Chinese culture compare to the West. Green reflects American culture(good at communication and public relations, caring for public good, etc.) and the abilities of a Black athlete. Top Chinese athletes can’t talk like him.

    A culture doesn’t have moral systems or values. You can say that within a culture people teach a value system, i.e. Jews and Christians study the Ten Commandments, but that doesn’t say anything about what people actually think or value. It’s just what they do. That’s the definition that you corrected me on, and I like it.

    I don’t think Americans are good at public relations. I think famous athletes are sometimes (not always) good at public relations. The life that Green lives is very different from the people Snoopy was talking about, you know, the guys who show everyone their underwear.

    Snoopy:

    This prejudiced thinking on your part illustrates the inherent difficulty posed when people follow BigWOWO’s lead and explain individual behavior through cultural explanations. Your arguments clearly differ from BigWOWO’s position, but both display tacit acceptance of cultural determinism.

    Yes, but culture also explains a lot, which you yourself just did when you were talking about oversized pants (which could be seen as a “material trait”). Of course your explanation is an internet legend, much like the idea that we speak English instead of German because of a vote or that Winston Churchill’s dad rescued Alexander Fleming. It doesn’t happen the way that you described it because that’s not how the poor really live, especially not guys who are already full grown! Again, Snoopy, while values aren’t part of culture, beating the same ‘ol victimology drum is. Instead of making excuses for these people, why not ask them just to pull up their pants?

    You do raise a good point though about material culture. I’ve seen some suburban white dudes who wear their pants low, and they often do so because of what they feel it symbolizes. Here we see some sort of “culture” that is based somewhat on race, although I still think that’s far from saying that there is a one-and-only Black culture.

  122. Actually, I might be wrong about that. Maybe you can order a hit and be a thug. I’m not sure. If you look at the old Mafia guys, lots of them got their hands dirty too.

  123. King,

    FIrst you said the threshold was violence. SO when I demonstrate the Lochte and BIeber were violent, then you say the violence must be against an innocent victim.

    No. Please go back to read my post again. I first gave several dictionaries definitions, them emphasized violent part of those definitions. What I said isn’t important. What counts is those dictionaries definitions. So far, you haven’t proved your two examples fit the definitions. This tells me our understanding of the word “thug” is different.

  124. Actually, I might be wrong about that. Maybe you can order a hit and be a thug. I’m not sure. If you look at the old Mafia guys, lots of them got their hands dirty too. – bigwowo

    I consider the above thuggery.

    BTW I see thugs as people who have no qualms about using violence to get something. They may or may not enjoy the process of intimidation or inflicting pain. I see bullies as people who enjoy inflicting pain or the act of intimidating. Anything else that they receive is icing on the cake.

  125. King,

    I think “thug” is definitely a bully, but bully is not necessarily a thug.

    From two dictionaries:

    THUG:
    Full Definition of thug: a brutal ruffian or assassin
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thug
    1.a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/thug

    ruffian:
    1. a tough, lawless person; roughneck; bully.
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ruffian?s=t

    Simple Definition of ruffian
    : a strong and violent person (especially a man) who threatens and hurts other
    Full Definition of ruffian
    : a brutal person : bully
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ruffian

  126. @ chinesemom

    Your definitions:

    THUG:
    Full Definition of thug: a brutal ruffian or assassin
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thug
    1.a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/thug

    ruffian:
    1. a tough, lawless person; roughneck; bully.
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/ruffian?s=t

    Simple Definition of ruffian
    : a strong and violent person (especially a man) who threatens and hurts other
    Full Definition of ruffian
    : a brutal person : bully
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ruffian

    Now where in any of your definitions that you provided does it say:

    1) That the victims must be “innocent?” (as you assert in the paragraph below)

    “Clearly, our understanding of the word “thug” is quite different. I consider somebody who act violently or brutally toward their innocent victim(s) is a thug, no matter what race he is. I believe this is the meaning of those dictionaries definition of the word “thug”.”

    And where in your definitions does it state:

    2) That the victim must be physically powerless compared to the thug?

    “Was the limo driver completely innocent and physically powerless relative to him?

    I have provided your definition above in order for you to quote from in explaining exactly where in the dictionary you got those ideas from.

  127. @ chinesemom

    The answer to my question is that despite your insistence NONE of the things you keep insisting on are ANYWHERE in the dictionary definitions you cut and pasted above, NONE OF THEM!

    What you did in fact, was start to MAKE UP definitions in order to de-thugify the actions of Bieber which I described. And clearly by the definitions you give, people like Nicholas Cage should be known as a “thug” (but he is not)

    http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/nicolas-cage-arrested-for-domestic-abuse-2011164

    Charlie Sheen should be known as a “thug” (but he is not)

    http://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/charlie-sheen-accused-of-domestic-abuse-strangling-and-choking-ex-fiancee-report-55152

    And MANY MANY others! (who are also not)

    Now lets go back to Michael Brown. What did he actually do? He grabbed the store owner, pushed him back and when followed took 2 intimidating steps toward him and then left the store.

    http://www.msnbc.com/sites/msnbc/files/140815-surveilance-videostills-mn-1100.jpg

    WHAT HE DID WAS 100% WRONG and he was a thief.

    – But no bones where broken
    – No Blood was drawn
    – No property was damaged
    – No punched were thrown
    – No weapon was pulled
    – No club, cudgel or blunt object was used
    – There was no prolonged beating or attack

    So now back to the dictionary definitions of a thug:

    Dictionary .com

    1. a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.
    2. one of a former group of professional robbers and murderers in India who strangled their victims.

    Webster’s Online (Full Definition)
    1. a brutal ruffian or assassin

    Now, I will give you that Michael Brown was a criminal. And I have already said that Michael Brown was completely wrong. But is the “violence” that describes a “thug” really shoving a store clerk while stealing cigars? Is that the level of brutality that they are really describing? Or do they probably mean more than just a shove when they define “violence?”

    So, what I have been endeavoring to demonstrate to you is that when some Blacks people object to Michael Brown being called a “thug” it is not necessarily baseless. There actually IS an argument to be made that the definition may not actually fit Brown quite as snugly as you imagine that it does.

    I’m not saying 100% that Brown is not a thug. I’m just saying that it’s not as cut-and-and-dried a case as you make it out to be. And that there can be reasonable people who disagree with that characterization.

  128. King, why are you wasting your time with this valiant effort to illustrate to ChineseMom that her definition of a thug is wide enough to include Michael Brown but too narrow to include any White male?

    Of course she can’t label Justin Bieber or Ryan Lochte a thug. She’s socialized to believe that Black males are simply criminals and White males simply ‘misunderstood’. By any reasonable definition, guys like Lochte and Bieber and Sheen have all engaged in thuggish behavior, but because ChineseMom links individual behavior to cultural origins in a White supremacist country where anti-Black stereotypes thrive, she cannot admit that her arguments do not withstand basic scrutiny.

    No need to fight the good fight with people who can’t admit your humanity as it stares them in the face.

  129. @Snoopy

    I don’t think using celebrities to compare to unknown everyday folks is fair. Celebrities already have labels. It is much easier to label someone that is not well known as a thug because he has no existing labels. In the case Lochte, he didn’t beat anyone up or threaten personal violence that I’m aware of. Charles Barkley said that he was annoyed at having to fight tough guys at bars all the time. He gets caught in scuffles all the time on court; even with Shaq. However, I’ve never thought of him as a thug.

    I’m not denying that blacks may be more prone to be labelled as thugs. I’m just saying that using celebrites vs non-celebrities is not an even comparison.

  130. @ mmjames

    I admit that the celebrity methodology has its weaknesses but I only use them because people often have heard of their incidents, and because the press covers their incidents. It’s hard to make the case for Joe Schmoe, who’s violent episodes will not make the paper, and who’s antics will never be widely discussed.

    Snoopy, my arguments are not only for chinesemom, but for anyone else who might happen upon this argument either now or 5 years from now..

  131. Black culture is not homogenous. I mean, James Lamb will of course claim to speak for all black people in America, even as he makes snide remarks at black women who are not even in the conversation, but the following excerpt demonstrates that this is far from reality:

    “I realize that they truly feel as if the death of cops will help people realize the false narrative that Black Lives Matter, when all it will do is take their movement two steps backwards and label them domestic terrorist. I realized that some of these people, who say Black Lives Matter, are full of hate and racism. Hate for cops, because of the false narrative that more black people are targeted and killed. Racism against white people, for a tragedy that began 100’s of years ago, when most of the white people today weren’t even born yet. I realized that some in the African American community’s idea of “Justice” is the prosecution of ANY and EVERY cop or white man that kills or is believed to have killed a black man, no matter what the circumstances are.”

    http://www.jaystalien.com/index.php/2016/07/19/10/

  132. King,

    I can only say that our understanding of the word “thug” is very different. May be this is the culture difference too.

    I don’t think “thug” can apply to domestic violence. Are there any black person ever being called “thug” for domestic abuse?

  133. WHAT HE DID WAS 100% WRONG and he was a thief.

    I wouldn’t call him a thief. He committed robbery, not theft. People usually won’t call a thief a thug, but often consider a robber a thug.
    ——-
    This debate shows once again the culture differences in attitudes toward crimes and criminals between Asian and Black cultures.

  134. – But no bones where broken
    – No Blood was drawn
    – No property was damaged
    – No punched were thrown
    – No weapon was pulled
    – No club, cudgel or blunt object was used
    – There was no prolonged beating or attack

    These didn’t happen because Michael Brown wasn’t violent and vicious enough? Or because the store owner didn’t resist much? Where is the empathy for the crime victim?

  135. – But no bones where broken
    – No Blood was drawn
    – No property was damaged
    – No punched were thrown
    – No weapon was pulled
    – No club, cudgel or blunt object was used
    – There was no prolonged beating or attack

    What are the reasons that none of these happened? Because Michael Brown wasn’t violent and vicious enough, or because the store owner was too scared and didn’t resist much? Where is the empathy for the crime victim?

  136. With this kind of attitude toward crimes and criminals in Black culture, should we be surprised that large percentage of violent crimes committed by Blacks in this country?

  137. That’s why I said earlier that so called anti-blackness in Asian immigrant communities is more of the clash of cultures (values) rather than prejudice, bigotry or racism. If it is label as racism, I’m fine with it and proud to be this kind of “racist”.

  138. ChineseMom,

    Can I put out a theory out there for your consideration?

    You come from a culture–Chinese culture–which or more or less racially homogeneous. The philosophical values come from two main sources–Confucianism and Maoism. There is only one political party. People didn’t immigrate to China; most of the families there have been there for thousands of years or more. There may be some regional differences–maybe Cantonese people speak more loudly–but for the most part everyone belongs to one national culture.

    Can I suggest the idea that it’s different in a country where just about everyone is an immigrant? Right now I’m seeing that King’s family immigrated a generation and a half ago. I can’t see how the status quo has anything to do with his family. Similarly, Snoopy’s family has two generations of college education. I can’t see how he’s responsible or linked to the violent criminals who only share his skin color and nothing more.

    It’s might be easier for you to “take responsibility” for your culture because it actually is your culture.

  139. That’s not the way it works chinesemom. YOu can’t guess what you think someone might have done had things gone differently. What it comes down to is things happened as they happened, and the shove is very low on the scale of violence. Nevertheless, the thug accusation was quickly brandished.

    I think what Michael Brown did was disgusting. It was dishonest and it was bullying. But was it really all that violent when you really look at it? The answer is no. Had he been arrested for doing such things before? Again, the answer is no. Again, my only point is that there is inconsistency, that’s all.

  140. ChineseMom,

    Here’s another example. Let’s say John is Norwegian. He grew up on a small farm in Norway where his parents lived for generations. People where he lived are peaceful and open-minded to everyone. Now let’s say he immigrates to the southern U.S., and he sees racism for the first time. His neighbors keep putting up Confederate flags on their walls.

    Would it be fair to say that his culture is racist because of what some (not all) white people do in this country? Is it really his culture?

  141. I think what Byron is saying makes a lot of sense, if you’re willing to isten to him.

  142. King,

    I think what Michael Brown did was disgusting. It was dishonest and it was bullying.

    Yeah. You and Snoopy only see it as wrong, bullying and disgusting as Lochte‘s trashing the gas station, but Byron, mmjame and I clearly see it differently. This is our culture differences.

    But was it really all that violent when you really look at it? The answer is no.

    This tells me again our standard for the word “violent” is quite different. It proves my point once more that there is big culture difference between Chinese and Black Americans on our view of crime and criminals.

    Had he been arrested for doing such things before? Again, the answer is no. Again, my only point is that there is inconsistency, that’s all.

    You probably only see it as a “gentle giant” suddenly do something bad out of blue. But the way Mike Brown robbed that convenience store clearly tells me he was on that path for a long time. Only a lawless violent person (which is a thug) will behave that way. The facts that he punched the police officer and had a juvenile further proved this.

    All of these tell us again and again our culture(values and way of thinking) differences

  143. Byron,

    From our above discussions, if you accept the fact that there is huge differences between Black-American and Chinese cultures on our views of crime and criminals, then we can pass this and discuss further what I meant by “taking responsibility for my culture”.

  144. But was it really all that violent when you really look at it? The answer is no.

    If I demanded a little girl on the front yard of her house to give me the doll she was playing, and threatened to beat her up if she refuses, would I be all that violent?

    Again, where is the empathy for the victims of the crimes committed by Blacks? Beside viewing themselves as the victims of prejudice, bigotry or racism., has Black culture ever taught people to put themselves in the shoes of the victims of the crimes committed by Blacks when thinking about race relations?

  145. King,

    If even you don’t think Michael Brown really that violent, is it that unreasonable and racist for Asian immigrants who can’t take this kind of violent to be scared of certain kind of Black people and not want to be associate with them?

  146. if you accept the fact that there is huge differences between Black-American and Chinese cultures on our views of crime and criminals -chinesemom

    chinesemom,
    I get uncomfortable when you make statements like this. Personally, I would be a lot more comfortable supporting an assertion that compares chinese culture to white-american culture. I think that when gauging the cultural aspects of a people or community that those being examined should be significantly in control of there own destinies. At the very least they must be more or less happy with what is going on in their communities.
    The chinese has run the show in China for a couple of thousand years and white americans in America for a few hundred years anyways. Since the people are in control, then I think that their cultures can be fairly and accurately gauged.
    I think that it is fair to say that white america is more violent. Look at what they have come up with:
    1) fight-clubs for the middle-class purely for the purpose of beating the crap out of one another
    2) violent sports like NFL football and NHL hockey where the aim is often to knock a guy senseless. I heard that NFL players can’t expect a life-span of much more than 50 years.
    3) always by far the biggest weapons maker in the world
    4) everyone and his dog own half a dozen guns

    On the other hand, I don’t think that it is that simple to assess black-american culture especially in the inner-cities. I don’t think that they truly had long periods where they control the destinies of their communities nor were happy with what is happening within their communities — this is only my assumption based on things the prevalence of poverty, gangs, shootings and biased policing . Attitudes towards crime and violence are likely biased by these stresses.
    In a similar way, I wouldn’t expect assessment of culture within Palestine and Syria over the last few years to be indicative of their cultures. Recent events would suggest that they don’t value life and have a radical “an eye for an eye” attitude. These would be unfair assessments.

  147. I agree with you that Black Americans have never been in full control of their own culture and destinies. The current victimhood culture make them even less be able to do so.

  148. So just a quick recap of my opinions.

    1. On the word “thug.” Personally, I’m in agreement with you, ChineseMom, that the word “thug” is evenly applied, but I think you’re framing the debate in the wrong way. In my experience, “thug” is usually used on people who unlawfully beat up or threaten strangers or rival gang members. It doesn’t include those who beat up friends, spouses, employees, or even one’s own children. That’s why no one calls domestic violence offenders “thugs.” Mike Tyson was called a “thug” back in the day, but never for beating up Robin Givens; they only used it when he was beating the crap out of other grown men on the street. Lochte would have had to have threatened or shoved another person to be called that. People call the Hells Angels “thugs” all the time, and they’re mostly White. To me, it’s similar to the word “jerk.” If you look it up in the dictionary, “jerk” is just a person, but in reality, we usually use it to describe only males.

    That said, I don’t see why King or Snoopy can’t have an opinion without having it linked to their race. I think it’s really important that we not do that when we’re debating. I mean, I’m in agreement with you here, but I can also see it either way. There are logical reasons to also feel that it’s unevenly applied. King or Snoopy should be able to express an opinion without people saying, “You only feel that way because you’re Black!” In fact, there are lots of non-black people who agree with King and Snoopy. It’s perfectly acceptable to be on the other side of the debate, and one doesn’t have to be Black to be there.

    It’s kind of the same thing when someone (who we won’t name) says, “You’re only against Affirmative Action because you’re Asian and you’re in it for your own self-interests!” Yes, it’s true that getting rid of racism in college admissions does benefit Asians, the people who have historically faced racist discrimination in that area. But I think that if I were Black or White, I’d still have the wherewithal to do the right thing. I’m sure it’s the same thing with King and Snoopy.

    2.

    From our above discussions, if you accept the fact that there is huge differences between Black-American and Chinese cultures on our views of crime and criminals, then we can pass this and discuss further what I meant by “taking responsibility for my culture”.

    I disagree because of the reasons I listed above, and I’m not sure why I would have to accept that to discuss your culture. King and Snoopy are against crime and criminals. Snoopy even said that OJ did it (that was the one time in our ten year history that Snoopy surprised me.)

    While Black culture in the U.S. is too diverse to link as a single culture–the same way Asian American culture is too diverse–I might believe that Chinese culture might have enough commonality to be treated as one, but you know more about it than I do.

    So yes, I would like to hear what you have to say about taking responsibility for your culture.

  149. And I understand your uncomfortableness. The victimhood culture has bullied people either to shut up or to accept their false narratives. This is why we have Trump now.

  150. I’m as much against victimhood as you are, ChineseMom, which is why I ride Snoopy so hard. But I think you need to also evaluate what people are saying, especially in this debate. Everything King has said on this topic has been reasonable and logical. If someone is being illogical and unreasonable and saying outlandish things, they could be emotional and supporting their own out of tribalism. But I don’t see that happening in this discussion.

    But I would like to hear how you take responsibility for your own culture. Many guys are attracted to Chinese culture. I think I’d like to hear your views on this as well.

  151. King,

    If even you don’t think Michael Brown really that violent, is it that unreasonable and racist for Asian immigrants who can’t take this kind of violent to be scared of certain kind of Black people and not want to be associate with them? — ChineseMom

    Yes, obviously. It is unreasonable and racist for Asian immigrants to fear Black people, in whole or in part.

    ChineseMom, given your perspectives in this conversation, it is reasonable to question how, in your estimation, Asian immigrants would identify the “certain kind of Black people” you believe they should reasonably fear. I suspect your identification of such persons would rely heavily on stereotypes, and as such would unjustly classify law-abiding Black citizens as criminals to fear.

    Quoting Angry Asian Man, “That’s racist!”

    Further, it’s not as if Asia exists today without violent criminality. Asian immigrants do not discover violent crime once they land on American soil. In general, one cannot justify ostracizing others through fear. So no, there’s no justification for choosing to disassociate from ‘certain kinds of Black people’. Your fear is unjustified.

    Or put another way, individual White Americans enslaved my ancestors, forced others into debt peonage, segregated their descendants while they denied suffrage and basic civil rights, and incarcerate millions of my race today on stolen Native land, where they excluded Chinese immigrants for decades, interred Japanese Americans, and now maintain a porous southern border to exploit labor from Latin American peasants. Still, many of us interact with White people every day without difficulty. I suspect you do as well, ChineseMom.

    So if we don’t apply all the crimes against humanity individual White Americans have committed throughout history to every White American, why apply all the crimes against humanity committed by individual Black Americans to every Black person?

    No one suggests cultural explanations for Dylan Roof’s behavior when he walks into a Black church, watches Bible study for an hour and then shoots nine people dead. We don’t interrogate White cultures when a White man kills scores of people trying to watch The Dark Knight Rises. Hell, when George W. Bush expanded war into Iraq and sold the escalation with faulty intelligence, no one suggested that his culture was to blame, even though that war directly resulted in millions of Iraqi dead.

    As an individual, I’m exhausted with people who find it reasonable to fear Black people because Black criminals exist, but apply this thinking specifically to Black Americans alone and consider that selectivity just. Black people die, sometimes at the hands of those sworn to protect and serve them, because of this irrational fear you wish to justify ChineseMom. No. You are wrong because Black people are individuals, just like humans everywhere.

    ChineseMom, if you are not capable of treating Black people like individuals, then yes, you are a racist. By definition. Such incapability is unreasonable and repulsive. May whatever deity you believe in have mercy on your soul.

  152. Byron,

    I don’t see why King or Snoopy can’t have an opinion without having it linked to their race. I think it’s really important that we not do that when we’re debating.

    I agree with you on this in other situations. But in this case, how could I prove my point without linking our opinions to our respective races?

    Both you and King asked me earlier how did I figure out what the majority of African-Americans think or do? This is one of the many ways I used. It is probably safe to assume King is on the very conservative side among all African-Americans and I am on the very liberal side among Chinese. If I and King have this huge gap between our views on crime and criminals, it helps to prove my earlier assertions: 1, there is huge difference between Chinese culture and Black culture on our views on crime and criminals, we are on the opposite side of the spectrum; 2, there is ONE Black-American culture from my point of views no matter how King deviated from mainstream Black-American culture.

  153. BigWOWO, if you were really against victimhood, no Asian man would be able to come onto this site and whine about interracial dating disparities or anti-Asian male stereotypes that impede his marriage prospects. Instead, Asian men whine about social obstacles to their romantic lives here all the time. So stop.

    You aren’t against victimhood, you’re against the progressive Left, especially when applied to identity politics. Your stance against affirmative action is little more than conservative backlash against the idea that the majority should not be allowed to shower racial patronage on preferred model minorities. You falsely interpret my perspectives as ‘victimhood’ — knowing full well that I do not and have not displayed victimhood thinking, ever — because it is easier for you than the hard work of developing a cogent argument against cosmopolitan progressive thought.

    Frankly, your politics strike me as a cry for acceptance by first and second generation Chinese Americans who consider their Chinese heritage more authentic than yours. That explains your patience with ChineseMom, an overt racist who illustrates your position’s faulty reasoning. When most people apply cultural explanations to individual behavior, they simplify cultural diversity into stereotype and parody. Apply that to racial groups, and bigotry ensues.

    That’s been ChineseMom throughout this conversation: a bigot who simply cannot understand how wrong and offensive she is. She lacks a basic respect for Black humanity, largely because she judges Black culture through stereotype. She doesn’t know any better, and it’s her fault.

    So no, you don’t care about victimology. You’re just another right-of-center person of color, trying to fit in, telling yourself that suburban living doesn’t make you any less authentic than old folk who speak the mother tongue with fluency you can’t match and fear American diversity with passion you can’t equal. Good luck to you, BigWOWO. Maybe they’ll let you join WeChat one day.

  154. James James James, “Melanin” Charles Manson,

    Where’s your proof? Where’s your evidence?

    “Instead, Asian men whine about social obstacles to their romantic lives here all the time.”

    Can you show us where this happened? A link or a quote would be good.

    This place has a higher standard than your wife’s blog, James. On this site, make believe is not good enough to supplant FACTS. We do not have a pre-occupation with crafting “narratives” that have no bearing on reality, comics and stupid TV series, and accusing people of things that did not actually occur.

    Your not in your wife’s blog anymore and you are no longer the cult leader. Over here, you can just say a thing, you’ll have to back it up, especially when it flies in the face of REALITY. 😀

  155. Snoopy,

    As Sengge said, the difference is that our discussion is based on REALITY. It’s also based on attitude. When one recognizes trends and tries to think about what to do to correct or alleviate problems associated with trends, I don’t consider that “victimhood.” The social obstacles are real, and they’re based on race. The numbers support this.

    What I consider “victimhood” is when one makes excuses for people. See upthread where someone said that the trend of wearing one’s pants low began because people couldn’t afford pants. That same someone has never stepped foot in those neighborhoods and seen what kind of shoes the same people wear.

    Frankly, your politics strike me as a cry for acceptance by first and second generation Chinese Americans who consider their Chinese heritage more authentic than yours. That explains your patience with ChineseMom, an overt racist who illustrates your position’s faulty reasoning.

    Much as you like to write off bilingualism, languages are tools to understanding the mind. Reading Extremist Liberal rags talking about Chinese people is not the same as actually speaking to real Chinese people. And yes, this too is cultural.

    Let’s put this into perspective. We’ve had Nigerians on this blog, people from tribes outside of India, Chinese people, and White people. Australians, British, and people from Hong Kong. We have a much greater diversity of opinion than Reappropriate has ever had. Reappropriate would ban people because…back to the OP…the cultural attraction at your site only applies to people from your own culture–Extreme College Liberalism. You can’t stand ChineseMom because you’re culturally monolingual.

    That’s why it bothers you that King is talking to ChineseMom. Your first reaction is to dismiss people who think differently or who come from other cultures. Sorry, Snoopy, but you can’t always strongarm people into doing what you want. Sometimes it’s better to listen and engage.

  156. ChineseMom,

    I don’t know if King is “on the very conservative side among all African-Americans.” I’ve met lots people who are similar to King in perspective. I don’t see that at all. I don’t think he “deviated” at all. I’m willing to bet that lots of his black friends think as he does. I agree that there’s more or less one “mainstream media” black culture in the media, but that is determined by people in the media, not real people. It’s the same deal with Asian Americans. “Mainstream media” Asian American culture supports affirmative action, believes there are too many Asians in higher education, believes there’s anti-Blackness in its own culture, and thinks Peter Liang is a racist who deserved to spend the rest of his life in prison. “Mainstream media” Asian American culture has nothing to do with actual Asian people and everything to do with who has the power to speak.

    If you’re going to say that there’s one “mainstream” black culture in the media, I think we might be able to agree on that.

    Is that what you mean?

    Anyway, I’m interested in how you take responsibility for your own culture. Even if we disagree on whether there’s one black culture, I’m still interested in hearing your views on responsibility.

  157. Snoopy, what happens when somebody who tries not to stereotype black people, ends up trusting a black person who is not a good person and then ends up getting burned, robbed, stabbed? Its pretty fucking stupid to assume that all black people without regard to who they are, are all good people who we should trust unwittingly into our homes without knowing who they are……

    Is it racist, to take precautions, and exercise discretion? Ive met all sorts of people, there are good people and bad people in all races, and there is a kernel of truth to stereotypes and thats the ugly truth. Just because someone is black shouldnt mean i should trust ALL of them based on race. Would I trust a black college grad or professional more so than a black who looks like, acts like and dresses like a gangbanger and seems to be only interested in getting something from me? There are always exceptions and exercising discretion based on other factors in CONJUNCTION with a bit of racial profiling shouldnt be admonished.

    Its obvious the former i would trust more easily than the latter, and the latter only when i know them very very very well over a long period of time. It seems like both you and chinese mom despite your idealogical stances are the same in many respects on being on the opposite ends of two extremes.

    I think the best way is a balance between both, keeping in mind the harsh reality of the situation that a group of people may face (stereotypes), and exercising discretion based on the uncertainties of a situation or meeting, (this is what YOU snoopy fail to understand) WHILE keeping an open mind in understanding that ultimately people are individuals from one person to another and they should not be judged solely on skin color but most importantly their actions. (This is what YOU chinesemom fails to understand).

    Anyway thats all i have to say from my own experiences.

  158. Snoopy,

    That’s been ChineseMom throughout this conversation: a bigot who simply cannot understand how wrong and offensive she is. She lacks a basic respect for Black humanity, largely because she judges Black culture through stereotype. She doesn’t know any better, and it’s her fault.

    Where did I make the judgement on Black culture? Where did I used the stereotype? Are your and King’s views on Michael Brown only the stereotype? Presenting and proving the differences in cultures are not the same as making judgement or bigotry to people with normal ways of thinking. The ones who make the judgement are your cry-bully progressives when you label Asian immigrants as anti-Black, wanting to be Whites or having White privileges, while the truth behind those seemingly racist phenomena is that our culture is much more closer to mainstream White-culture than Black-culture on many fundamental aspects.

    I’m fully aware the ways I used to present the facts are making people uncomfortable here, but this is the easiest way for me to prove my points. You can either continue to stay in your cry-bully progressive comfort-zone which will takes you nowhere besides being angry and crying “racist”, or you can make an effort to understand other cultures and accept the culture differences, this will make you less angry, more knowledgeable, tolerant and understanding of people from other cultures.

  159. I would agree with Byron that I’m not much of an aberration among Black people. Most of my friends are relatively close to my views. Even those who are pretty liberal remain ideologically flexible.

    Chinesemom, you must give up your race-based sifting and instead embrace behavior-based sifting.

  160. King,

    Exactly.

    ChineseMom, this is what I’m talking about. There are lots of moderate Black people. We just don’t read about them because they’re not represented in the media. You’re more or less correct if you think there’s one mainstream Black media. It’s not true for the general population.

    Which brings me back to our OP. Black culture is diverse enough for Black people to find other moderate Black people. That’s a significant subculture. It’s the same deal with Asian Americans. We tend to gravitate towards the subcultures that represent our own views and personal journeys.

  161. @BigWOWO

    Discussion based on reality? How? ChineseMom tries to justify viewing all Black people as adherents of a violent and promiscuous culture, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding; how is that reality? You suggest that I promote victimhood, something I’ve never done, because I recognize material social concerns imposed by domestic policy. This is not, nor has it been, ‘making excuses’ for anyone.

    Plus, you have zero idea about the neighborhoods in which I’ve traveled, and cannot speak with authority about them. You’ve concocted this fantasy about my upbringing, based in nothing, because for you (this is where your prejudice emerges) it is somehow not possible to emerge from a middle class suburban Black community and NOT be supremely wealthy. Whatever. You engage conversations on this blog that reflect your sheltered, closeted worldview.

    Your dealings with ChineseMom, another ostrich posing as a person, reflect a desire to learn from elders in your community. This would be admirable, though it’s clear that you engage a one-way dynamic. You’ve tried in most of this conversation to make that woman see reason on Black diversity, and it has never worked. The why is obvious: ChineseMom is an unrepentant bigot who thinks the worst of Black people. This is not a function of her Chinese cultural heritage; it’s a direct result of her individual prejudice, and by allowing her fanciful notions about Black criminality space here you offer anti-Black hatespeech tacit acceptance.

    My first reaction is not to dismiss people who think differently, but I don’t believe ChineseMom thinks when she writes about race at all. Frankly, she’s not that intelligent. I don’t believe she’s weighs different positions or concepts; at best she reacts to political stimuli like the automatic motor response that happens when a doctor taps a joint to excite a nerve. Mention a Black person to her, and she squawks, calling Michael Brown a ‘thug’ and lamenting the fact that Black people find the deaths of Michael Brown and people like him unjust. She does not apply critical reasoning to these conversations, and I have no reason to assume that she’s capable of such reasoning.

    So if you wish to waste your time with such idiocy, be my guest BigWOWO. But don’t confuse yourself with the idea that you engage a conversation based on reality. The idea that individual action is governed by cultural affiliation, to the point that individual people display cultural affinity when choosing romantic partners is a flawed and easily dismantled argument. But you continue to promote your ‘breakthrough’ here, because when you interact with less like-minded people, when you deal with the actual diversity of your population, your perspectives are laughed at and dismissed. Perhaps social media isn’t for everyone.

    You benefit from this safe space, this artificial construct you call a blog. But this is not reality, BigWOWO. This is the place you can go where most people won’t call out your idiocy, your own personal subreddit. Diversity of thought happens here when I show up.

  162. I’ve been busy working on my own projects and it’s been a crazy hot summer so there’s no point to “debate” with the broken record that is Mr. Jams Fang using his same old spin doctoring, lies and Strawmans.

    Anyhow, just thought these two posts are interesting from Reddit, Facebook and other social media:

    Surgeon beaten by scammers (notice race of the attackers is not mentioned until much later):

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/beverly-hills-doctor-venice-attack-918703

    But more relevant to this discussion, this youtube video shows that the Korean Hallyu does indeed have real world influence, as anybody with common sense can attest to and not rabid reality deniers like Mr. Fang here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T1jayve7lU

    Have a great holiday weekend! ^_^

  163. Snoopy,

    ChineseMom tries to justify viewing all Black people as adherents of a violent and promiscuous culture, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding

    Where did I say Black culture is violent and promiscuous? Has your cry-bully culture taught you any logical reasoning besides classifying anything beyond your comprehension or comfort as racist?

    King,

    I would agree with Byron that I’m not much of an aberration among Black people. Most of my friends are relatively close to my views. Even those who are pretty liberal remain ideologically flexible.

    What do you mean you are not much of an aberration among Black people? You are the one who has insisted that there is no ONE black-culture.

    Chinesemom, you must give up your race-based sifting and instead embrace behavior-based sifting.

    Culture is related to race (or group of people) by definition. Do you mean that I must give up talking about culture?

    Byron,
    Of course there are lots of moderate Black people, there are millions of them.

  164. Regarding taking responsibility for my own culture, I talked a little bit here:
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2016/08/cultural-attraction/#comment-324489

    I think there are two senses of responsibility: one is to take the responsibility to change, another is to accept the consequence.

    Compare to Chinese culture, I think white cultures (American and Western Europe) emphasizes more on taking personal responsibility to change the culture. That is why they value and advocate more about leadership, standing up and speaking up. I believe this is part of the reason that White cultures changed so much and so fast compare to other cultures.

    Chinese culture emphasizes more on taking and accepting the status quo (accepting the consequences). On personal level, we only emphasizes on taking personal responsibility to improve oneself, but not much on changing others.

    Another difference between Chinese and American cultures is the sense of collectiveness. One example is South Koreans responses to Virginia Tech shooting I talked about several years ago:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting#South_Korean_response
    We Chinese won’t go that extreme but more or less in that direction. That is why Asian immigrants don’t complain that much about “racism”, because we know that we collectively behave differently from native born Americans, this is the consequences, we have to accept that. We know that we would’t behave much differently if we were on the other side, it is the human nature. We can’t ask other people to be better than us in controlling our human natures, and this is immigrants sense of equality which victimhood culture doesn’t teach.

    I think it is the unique trait of victimhood culture in this country that neither take responsibilities to improve themselves and their communities, nor accept the consequences, only demanding others to do more for them and feel entitled to that.

  165. Byron,

    I agree that there’s more or less one “mainstream media” black culture in the media, but that is determined by people in the media, not real people. It’s the same deal with Asian Americans. “Mainstream media” Asian American culture supports affirmative action, believes there are too many Asians in higher education, believes there’s anti-Blackness in its own culture,

    In any culture, mainstream media always represents the values, morals, opinions, ways of thinking that have been advocated, accepted or widely held by the majority people, especially the elite class in that culture. Mainstream media does not exist in vacuum. Study mainstream media is the best way to learn about a culture.

    There isn’t an Asian American mainstream media. What presented in English mainstream media to represent Asian Americans was controlled by liberal Whites, not Asian American mainstreams.

  166. Chinesemom, it’s not that you have to stop talking about culture. You just need a little more nuanced understanding of how much diversity exists even within a single culture.

  167. My understanding of China, Chinese people and Chinese culture is not just from people around me, but mostly from Chinese mainstream media. Personal experiences only confirm and reflect what is presented in the media.

  168. King,

    Of course I understand there is diversity exists within every culture. It seems only the political correct culture in the US assumes that people are too stupid to know that.

  169. People ARE too stupid to know that when they start talking about one culture per race, as if it really means anything beyond a convenience of verbal shorthand.

  170. ChineseMom,

    If there are millions of moderate Black people, some of whom are aghast at the rampant irresponsibility coming from the liberal extremists and want nothing to do with them, then how do they not comprise their own culture?

    In any culture, mainstream media always represents the values, morals, opinions, ways of thinking that have been advocated, accepted or widely held by the majority people, especially the elite class in that culture. Mainstream media does not exist in vacuum. Study mainstream media is the best way to learn about a culture.

    There isn’t an Asian American mainstream media. What presented in English mainstream media to represent Asian Americans was controlled by liberal Whites, not Asian American mainstreams.

    How does this make any rational sense? I ask that with all due respect!

    First, why would mainstream media be the best way to learn about a culture? I would think that talking to people would be the best way to learn about a culture. Second, if there is not a mainstream media for Asian Americans because it’s “controlled by liberal Whites,” then how is it any different for Black Americans? For that matter, how is it any different for Whites? I’m having trouble understanding how media is the best way to learn about culture. It’s just entertainment. They publish what is most entertaining.

    In terms of activism, it’s much the same “attention grabbing” that NightTown talks about here. When Snoopy or Jenn says, “Hey, we found a way to get more Black people in college without discriminating against Asians,” and then the math doesn’t add up and it becomes evident that they are discriminating against Asians, and then people get angry at the bait-n-switch in their own comment section, it’s entertaining for some people. It’s like when Trump says he’s going to deport people, then rolls back, and then says it again. It makes no sense, but for some people it’s funny to watch because it grabs attention. It has little to do with race or reality.

    What you said about Asian culture is probably true. I agree with that. But even then, I’m not sure it applies in this culture. You can say that Asians who support affirmative racism hold us back, and you’d be right. But that’s not really taking responsibility for it–that’s just pointing out something that’s obvious. And you’re not really blaming Asian culture for that, at least not in the same way you’re blaming Black culture. Does this make sense?

  171. Snoopy:

    ChineseMom tries to justify viewing all Black people as adherents of a violent and promiscuous culture, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding; how is that reality?

    It’s not reality. But that’s not what she said. But I’m glad you brought this up because this is exactly your problem. You get so worked up emotionally that you read things that just aren’t there. Nowhere did ChineseMom say anything about “all” Black people doing anything. And this is coming from me, someone who is on your side in this debate.

    I think you’ve got money because of your views on poor people–these are the views of a person who uses the poor as a prop without actually seeing how they actually live. One never hears such outlandish claims from people who’ve had contact with poor people. I should blog about this. Oh…that’s right…I already did. Twice.

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2014/09/how-poor-americans-actually-live-or-how-to-deal-with-reality/

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2014/06/affirmative-action-and-the-rift-between-the-asian-american-media-and-the-rest-of-us/

    Your dealings with ChineseMom, another ostrich posing as a person, reflect a desire to learn from elders in your community. This would be admirable, though it’s clear that you engage a one-way dynamic. You’ve tried in most of this conversation to make that woman see reason on Black diversity, and it has never worked. The why is obvious: ChineseMom is an unrepentant bigot who thinks the worst of Black people. This is not a function of her Chinese cultural heritage; it’s a direct result of her individual prejudice, and by allowing her fanciful notions about Black criminality space here you offer anti-Black hatespeech tacit acceptance.

    So offering free speech is a way of being a tacit racist, while giving people unearned bonus points for their race in college admissions is not? Snoopy, if nothing else, this place of free speech is where you produce your best work! I don’t think you’ve ever made such an outlandish claim anywhere else!

    I do need to point out the absolute LUNACY of your statement about Chinese culture above. As I said in my comment to ChineseMom above, she shouldn’t judge a culture by the media and should instead try to talk to people. I think you should do the same. For you to comment on her culture while refusing to talk to people of her culture is just insane. That’s misolinsanity at it’s worse.

    Seriously, it’s not too late to turn it around. I think she actually likes you as a person. She might even be able to teach you a word or two of Chinese.

    The idea that individual action is governed by cultural affiliation, to the point that individual people display cultural affinity when choosing romantic partners is a flawed and easily dismantled argument.

    But that’s my problem, Snoopy. You argue against that idea…but ONLY when it comes to Black MEN and women who date Black men. It doesn’t seem to apply to anyone else in your world. You attack White people for their cultural affinity, but somehow you’re above the (natural) law. Everything gets blamed on Whitey and Chang.

    Look, I think you’re a very special person. But this double standard is insanity. Misolinsanity.

  172. BigWOWO, ChineseMom has said repeatedly that King and I emerge from one, singular Black culture, a culture she deems supportive of violence, criminality, single motherhood, and victimhood. Given this, I read ChineseMom as someone who links all Black people — anyone she views as informed from and framed by a singular Black culture — as adherents of a violent and promiscuous culture.

    I don’t suggest and have not suggested that this means that I believe she thinks that all Black people are violent and promiscuous. But it’s clear that she thinks that the culture we are all shaped by produces violent and promiscuous people at a much higher rate than does her culture or White culture.

    This presents a distinction without a difference. Were ChineseMom capable of recognizing that multiple Black cultures exist, you may have a point. However, she has not recognized this; on the contrary, she has maintained that all Blacks are shaped and largely informed by a singular Black culture, one that supports Michael Brown and the Black President who sent three representatives to his funeral, a move she repeatedly decries.

    Yes, it is possible to view all Black people as adherents of a violent and promiscuous culture without believing that all Blacks are violent and promiscuous. ChineseMom is that bigoted example, and you give her space to expound upon her prejudice here. I know you don’t agree with all of it, BigWOWO, but your interest in absolute free speech does allow tawdry race theories from some commenters to thrive here unchecked. The lady’s a bigot. Were she a freckle-faced towheaded White boy you’d have banned her long ago.

    And yes, I don’t believe that ChineseMom’s clear bias against Black people has anything to do with her being Chinese. I don’t know why you find that to be ‘absolute LUNACY’, but I don’t believe she learned her anti-Black hate from Chinese culture. I don’t think she learns, frankly.

    And you’re going to need to offer more about my supposed ‘attack(ing) White people for cultural affinity’. I think you have me confused with someone else. I’ve written about material injuries inflicted on people of color by Whites; I’ve discussed institutional challenges people of color face in response to White supremacy. I couldn’t care less how much White people love Friends and tuna casseroles.

    The difference between us is that I do not use cultural narratives to describe individual behavior. So no, I’m not attacking anyone for their cultural affinities. I read too much for that.

  173. Byron,

    If there are millions of moderate Black people, some of whom are aghast at the rampant irresponsibility coming from the liberal extremists and want nothing to do with them, then how do they not comprise their own culture?

    You have this question because our understanding of the word “culture” isn’t exactly the same. I posted this link before and I post it here again. You just need to read the first four pages. It summarized most sociologists’ views on the word “culture”:
    https://www.pace.edu/emplibrary/VP-THEAFRICANAMERICANCULTURE_Hugh_J_Scott.pdf
    I don’t think culture in 0-1 term, but view it as a bell-curve. When I compare two cultures, I compare the two bell-curves. I hope this will make more sense to you.

    First, why would mainstream media be the best way to learn about a culture? I would think that talking to people would be the best way to learn about a culture.

    I gave the reasons for this earlier: “In any culture, mainstream media always represents the values, morals, opinions, ways of thinking that have been advocated, accepted or widely held by the majority people, especially the elite class in that culture. Mainstream media does not exist in vacuum”. By talking to people to learn a culture, how many people you can talk to and how deep you can go? How did you know about east coast culture, west coast culture, Texas culture,.. and etc.? Just by talking to people?

    Second, if there is not a mainstream media for Asian Americans because it’s “controlled by liberal Whites,” then how is it any different for Black Americans? For that matter, how is it any different for Whites? I’m having trouble understanding how media is the best way to learn about culture. It’s just entertainment. They publish what is most entertaining.

    Over 70% Asian Americans are immigrants, how often do you see an Asian immigrant out there talking or writing about Asian American issues? And how often do you see an Asian American leader purely elected by Asian Americans out there talking? Are we comparable to Black American on this?

    The media tells me how people are brainwashed, what values are installed, what are the social norms and etc.

  174. Culture is something that is hard to define. We all catch glimpses of it, but it’s almost impossible to nail down. Culture is focusing on the sameness between people while ignoring the differences.

  175. You can say that Asians who support affirmative racism hold us back, and you’d be right. But that’s not really taking responsibility for it–that’s just pointing out something that’s obvious. And you’re not really blaming Asian culture for that, at least not in the same way you’re blaming Black culture. Does this make sense?

    I think “blaming” is a too strong and subjective word. I don’t blame Black culture of Asian culture for anything.

    If you want an example that I “blame” Asian culture for something the way I “blame” Black culture, I can give you one:
    Take the IR issue and the challenges that Asian men faces for example, you guys blame it on racism and Hollywood, I see it as more of a problem caused by Asian culture and Asian immigrants(most Chinese immigrants don’t see this as racism or caused by Hollywood). To correct this problem, I made my son play a lot of sports, encouraged and supported him to pursue social success (including dating girls) in school. I also talked a lot about this issues with my Chinese friends, in my Wechat groups and Chinese online forums. From what I see in Chinese social media, more and more Chinese immigrants start to care about social skill development of their children. Hopefully, our new generation ABC men will do better socially.

  176. Take the IR issue and the challenges that Asian men faces for example, you guys blame it on racism and Hollywood, I see it as more of a problem caused by Asian culture and Asian immigrants(most Chinese immigrants don’t see this as racism or caused by Hollywood). To correct this problem, I made my son play a lot of sports, encouraged and supported him to pursue social success (including dating girls) in school. I also talked a lot about this issues with my Chinese friends, in my Wechat groups and Chinese online forums. From what I see in Chinese social media, more and more Chinese immigrants start to care about social skill development of their children. Hopefully, our new generation ABC men will do better socially.

    What you suggested (engage in social skill development) is a practical solution, something I talked to BigWowo about.

    But the symptoms that caused Asian American men’s IR problem, Hollywood is definitely one of the symptoms. You said it is because of Asian cultures and how Asian guys were raised. I know you’re wrong because in Asia most Asian guys DO NOT have dating problems, so Asian culture is not the reason that caused it. Korean, Chinese, and Japanese men in Asia have no problems dating foreign women from South East Asia, from Ukraine or from Russia.

    Do you know why Asian men in Asia don’t have dating problems? Because the Media in Asia doesn’t make Asian men look invisible or evil villains. Hollywood and pro-sports created an advantage and an uneven playing field for Non-Asian men.

    Yes, Asian men can still fix the problem at the micro level by going to the gym to shape better physiques (many Asian guys often talked about), and engage in better social skill development as you mentioned, are crucial practical solutions.

    However, when most women were interviewed and surveyed through studies, they reflected their dating preferences by mentioning how the men they wanted to date resemble the idols or heroes from Hollywood movies or other forms of media like K-Pop.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T1jayve7lU

    Another study that BigWowo linked, Asian men needed to make $247,000 to date Western women, proves that these women were ingrained in the hollywood/media stereotypes of Asian men that they needed to make lots of money to compensate for their lack in other areas.

    http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-female-seeking-same-race-male/?_r=0

  177. “My understanding of China, Chinese people and Chinese culture is not just from people around me, but mostly from Chinese mainstream media. Personal experiences only confirm and reflect what is presented in the media.”

    ““In any culture, mainstream media always represents the values, morals, opinions, ways of thinking that have been advocated, accepted or widely held by the majority people, especially the elite class in that culture. Mainstream media does not exist in vacuum”

    In China, mainstream media is completely controlled, edited and censored by the Communist party apparatchiks and propagandists.

    This is why “Chinesemom” is unqualified to comment on Chinese culture: because she is a Chicom (Chinese Communist) muppet.

    On the other hand, she is fully qualified to comment on CHICOM culture, especially that era that grew out of the abject failure of the Cultural Revolution, with all that little red book flapping and “I like eat sweet potato” bullshit.

  178. Snoopy,

    I also think you, King, Byron, and my two kids all belong to ONE American culture, a culture is much more supportive (“supportive” is the word you put in my mouth, not the word I used) of violence, criminality, single motherhood, and victimhood.
    the American culture you “are all shaped by produces violent and promiscuous people at a much higher rate than does” my Chinese culture.

    Is this more understandable and acceptable to you?

  179. What I don’t understand is that Chinesemom seems to think that everyone “in her culture” agrees with her and sees things as she does. Yet people in her Chinese national culture and in her Asian ethnicity culture disagree with what she espouses. Yet, she continues to postulate that Blacks all share in one culture that more or less shares the same values and ideas.

    Of course the reality is that there may be some ideas that are shared widely among Black Americans (for example) but there are many, many that are not. In fact, I would say that most are not. Race culture within a melting-pot society is mostly a chimera. There are a few touchstones and common experiences, but by and large, all races are watching the same media, participating in the same market/economy, taking in the same manufactured mass culture.

    I’m not saying that there aren’t any differences, I’m just saying that there’s so much overlap, mixing, and cross-pollination of ideas, goals, and ideologies, that in realty, there are not hard and fast distinctions between what people of different races perceive as “their culture.”

  180. NightTown

    I know you’re wrong because in Asia most Asian guys DO NOT have dating problems, so Asian culture is not the reason that caused it. Korean, Chinese, and Japanese men in Asia have no problems dating foreign women from South East Asia, from Ukraine or from Russia.

    Asian men and women in Asia DO have dating problems. That is why so many of them need helps from family and friends. Just about sixty years ago, most marriages in China were arranged through family and match makers, how could you expect people acquire dating skill in such short time? Those who dates foreign women are the outliers.

  181. Chinesemom

    What are you talking about? By your logic, Asian women have dating problems too because 60 years ago most Asian women were arranged through marriages. This technique is outdated today, if it’s still in use, it’s an outlier technique not common. The IR dating boom/trend from Asian women happened recently in the last few decades, maybe 25 years or less.

    I already said above that social skill development is something Western Asian guys do need to work on, I said it is one of the practical solutions along with working out at the gym.

    I have three generations of family members still living in Asia from two different Asian countries or two Asian cultures, not just one Chinese culture like you have. I still travel back to Asia very often to visit my families. Arranged marriages were a style of of dating setup or matching, just like today dating websites are a style of dating setup or matching. Today, arranged marriages are out of style, these type of dating setups are actually the outlier of today.

    Today, the young people have 4 most common styles of dating setups (matching) in Asia are:

    1) by dating websites, including the most popular being the phone Apps. Korea has the most apps.

    2) by introductions through friends and acquaintances

    3) knowing each other and dating each other through workplaces.

    4) by introductions through family relatives, especially by mothers.

    5) is the least common today, is what you said, arranged marriages.

    Chinesemom, there are 2.5 billion Asians in East and SE Asia, that’s a lot of people so they do just fine in the dating/mating department. The continent is getting overpopulated and you still think they’re having problems with dating/mating? Dating/mating does not have to use the Western way, there’s no right way or wrong way of dating/mating.

    The Western style of dating isn’t the only style of dating which requires more social skills, but not everything has to be the Western way.

    So for numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 above should work for Asian Americans in the Unites States too, why wouldn’t it work?

    A lot of Asian American guys who have problems dating in the U.S., when they came back to Asia they are seen as the most desired bachelors in Asia, most girls in Asia love Asian American guys, and AA guys have no problems dating girls in Asia. I know because I experienced it personally myself when I went back to Asia, including many of my Asian male friends who went back to Asia and experienced it the same way.

    It’s easier because girls in Asia are more receptive to Asian American guys. This could be by meeting them at bars, meeting though friends or relatives. So this proves the discrepancy between dating in Asia versus dating in the West for Asian American guys, dating in Asia is much easier.

  182. NightTown wrote:

    The IR dating boom/trend from Asian women happened recently in the last few decades, maybe 25 years or less.

    It’s closer to 45 years or so. Frank Chin wrote about it during the 1970’s, as did some Asian American psychologists. It’s wasn’t as high among immigrants back then, but it was sky high among the native-born. I see it in my own family and family friends…one of the benefits of being 4th gen…

  183. But yeah, you’re right. Gen-X took the biggest hit. Even though it was a trend that began 45 years ago, Gen-X took the biggest hit by far. It’s dialed back a bit since then.

  184. Snoopy,

    I didn’t read ChineseMom’s comments that way. Which is why I’m arguing that you should cut her some leeway. As I mentioned, she comes from a culture that has thousands of years of continuity. If you’re able to step into her shoes, you can see that the world probably looks very different to her. Rather than yelling, “Why can’t you see things my way?” why not just show her what your way is? That’s what King is doing.

    I think this hair-trigger cries of “Racism!” end up hurting y’all more than it helps you. I think that was what bothered me most about the exchange between Reappropriate and ChineseMom. ChineseMom was explaining what things looked like on her end, and Reappropriate began yelling and banning without even listening, despite the fact that ChineseMom comes from the culture that Reappropriate was mischaracterizing. I think we need to be more tolerant and open to listening to the other side.

    And no, if she were a White boy, she wouldn’t be banned. This site has been open since 2008. I think I’ve banned maybe three people the entire time, and it was usually for more serious infractions like calling for violence or harassing people online. This place really does practice free speech.

  185. Let me put this another way, Snoopy. I think you’re an authority on your own culture. But in order to explain it to the rest of the world (which you have to do if you’re going to work with the rest of the world), you need to be able to communicate it to people who come from different backgrounds.

  186. ChineseMom was banned from Reappropriate because she made a comment about Reappropriate’s parents. As an ideal, free speech is positive. In practice, the absolutist free speech you find worthwhile exacts costs from individuals. You’re more than welcome to practice whatever free speech ideals you deem worthy here. Those ideals will market to particular commenters, and shun others.

    There are no hair-trigger cries of “Racist!”. That being said, you have much more interest than I in cutting ChineseMom slack. She’s not talking about your people in vile terms, lest we forget. Further, you find knowledge and wisdom in listening to perspectives from individuals in the demographic she represents. It is reasonable that I would not share such attitudes.

    ChineseMom is a racist. It doesn’t matter to me that she emerges from a culture that enjoys thousands of years of continuity: since she didn’t learn how not to be racist from her interactions with and tutelage in her thousands-of-years-of-continuity” culture, that shows how little effect culture has on individual behavior, the point I’ve suggested throughout this discussion.

    Of course the world looks different from her confused perspective: in her mind, Blacks are violent criminals unworthy of interaction with defenseless Chinese Americans, who do nothing but study hard and benefit society. In ChineseMom’s estimation, Blacks make excuses for single motherhood and violent crimes among their youth. In ChineseMom’s thinking, government leaders like the President of the United States of America should not lament the deaths of young Black men by police officers, especially if those young Black men have ever committed any unlawful infractions, ever.

    BigWOWO, I’ve read ChineseMom’s perspectives. She’s given a fair chance to present what she thinks here, thanks to your free speech ideals, and I read what she types. She’s just racist and wrong. Consistently. So no, all Black people are not required to respond to racists in the same patient way King is using. He’s more than welcome to document her inconsistent arguments and fallacious thinking, without responding to her insults in kind. That’s his right.

    I’m not interested in a conversation with anyone whose ossified traditionalism cannot allow them to view people like me and our dreams as worthy of the same respect as people like her son and their dreams. In this thread, when ChineseMom tries to link King and I to the most undesirable elements of the urban experience — violence and promiscuity — she does so because she can’t imagine Black people who do not either exhibit or justify violent, promiscuous criminality. None of that is worthy of my respect. Nor is she.

  187. Snoopy wrote:

    “ChineseMom was banned from Reappropriate because she made a comment about Reappropriate’s parents.”

    Well…that’s a bit of a stretch. I guess it’s technically true, but it’s a stretch. She said something like, “I don’t think your parents would be happy with what you’re doing since they’re Chinese immigrants and you’re attacking their culture.” It’s a comment, but unless you’ve got a hair trigger sensitivity where everything is an insult, it’s not even slightly offensive.

    Those ideals will market to particular commenters, and shun others.

    It will shun those who have a hair-trigger response to even the smallest slights. It will shun those who can’t take constructive criticism. The problem isn’t free speech; the problem is that some people are just overly sensitive to minor things.

    I actually don’t think you’re one of them. You take criticism very well. But you have to understand that some people get offended so easily that it’s really hard to have a conversation with them. It gets annoying. So while I’d like to cater to everyone, I’ll say that it’s not a loss that they choose not to be here. This is not a safe space. This is a place where we exchange ideas. Some ideas may feel dangerous, and it’s the responsibility of the discussion participants to deal with it.

    There are no hair-trigger cries of “Racist!”. That being said, you have much more interest than I in cutting ChineseMom slack. She’s not talking about your people in vile terms, lest we forget. Further, you find knowledge and wisdom in listening to perspectives from individuals in the demographic she represents. It is reasonable that I would not share such attitudes.

    You see, this is what I don’t get. Why would you not find wisdom in listening to perspectives from that demographic? Last I checked, you married into a relationship with that demographic. Your children will be descendants of that demographic.

    I just think y’all need to stop taking everything so personally. You can spend all your time dealing with “liberals” who are non-offensive (to other extremists, but not necessarily to everyone else), but after a while that gets boring. And of course, it’s not reflective of the real world. There’s lots of wisdom, especially wisdom from different cultures, that will pass you by if you only engage with like-minded folk.

  188. Snoopy, Chinesemom was banned because you and whoever ran that site are dogmatic to the bone and overly emotional. I for one dont agree with everything she says, but it is not like she is attacking anyone personally unless she started using cuss words and sentences with malicious intent, there is a difference.

    You call chinese mom racist, but then what about Sigfried? And all the retards going around calling asian men chinks with small penises? It seems your cries of “racists” are highly selective and it comes to your attention only when it involves black people.

    And what about the assertion I made about how a liberal idealogy that you espouse taken to its logical extreme, imples that ALL black people are good people we should invite into our homes without discretion or discrimination.

    I can see you are unwilling to answer the hard questions and instead chose to attack easy targets like chinesemom.

  189. Max, I didn’t respond because you’ve made a poor, silly argument. No one has ever stated or implied that non-Blacks should accept all Black people as friends and neighbors, with no interest in the individual choices individual Blacks make. Quite the contrary, the basic civic request here is for all to acknowledge fellow citizens as individuals, such that assumptions about criminality, promiscuity, and intelligence are not applied to members of maligned minority groups by people outside those groups. King and I should not endure association with criminal activity; we’ve never committed any crimes.

    ChineseMom is a racist because she asserts that all Black people subscribe to a culture that encourages and/or excuses violent criminal behavior and single motherhood among its members. This is a demonstrably false assertion to ascribe to Black people and Black culture, and ChineseMom should know better. Yes, I apply the term ‘racist’ selectively, to individuals, not entire groups. I do not apologize for this. I don’t make blanket assertions about people with whom I have no experience.

    Max, your sad attempt here to accuse me of some sort of sin of omission makes no logical sense. Here, in this conversation, ChineseMom routinely issued blanket negative assertions about Black people and Black culture that do not conform with any objective, reasonable perspective. Your pathetic attempt to redeem her rhetoric illustrates the lengths by which some people will go to defend tribal affiliations over all reason.

  190. Max:

    Snoopy, Chinesemom was banned because you and whoever ran that site are dogmatic to the bone and overly emotional.

    I’m sticking both hands up, palms facing each other, because you, sir, just scored a TOUCHDOWN. Anything that challenges the dogma elicits an overly emotional response, even when there’s no ill intent.

    It seems your cries of “racists” are highly selective and it comes to your attention only when it involves black people.

    Exactly. That was the point that we’ve been making for years. More specifically, it’s only when it involves black MEN, not black women. As John Doe used to say about Snoopy’s philosophy, it’s all about “free stuff for black GUYS.”

    Snoopy:

    ChineseMom is a racist because she asserts that all Black people subscribe to a culture that encourages and/or excuses violent criminal behavior and single motherhood among its members.

    I think you’re exaggerating on just about all counts. I object to your use of the word “subscribe” and the use of the word “adherent.” It’s not exactly accurate. She was saying that you all come from the same culture (which I don’t agree with), but that sometimes some black guys were exceptions (which I can’t agree with since I don’t agree with the first part). “Subscribe” and “adherent” seems to imply that you choose to be part of this culture. That’s not what she was saying.

    While I can see the reasoning behind your use of the word “racist,” I don’t think that it’s applicable here within the context of the conversation. If you could step out of the bubble and into ChineseMom’s shoes, I think you can understand that she comes from a culture which is separated by geography, language, and history. She sees you belonging to one culture because her culture, at least when compared with ours in the context of her living in the US, seems relatively united. I disagree with her, Snoopy, and I agree with you, but I think part of breaking out of your culturally monolingual mindset is to try to see things from her perspective. The first step may be to get away from emotion-laden words like “racist.”

    Here, I won’t ask you to read this book (I remember how you refused to read about Sally Hemings), but there was an interesting story in Allan Bloom’s Closing of the American Mind where he recounts a student talking to another student about why the races should be separated (I’m probably misremembering the details). Even though the first student was pro-integration, he was able to listen. The point is that in order to have a civil conversation, you sometimes have to be able to converse without letting emotions interrupt the conversation.

  191. BigWOWO, like many conservatives, you make the false conclusion that when a person has rejected a line of argument they display an unwillingness to grapple with all sides of an argument. That’s not what is happening here at all. We’ve all read and understood ChineseMom’s line of reasoning, and we’ve all acknowledged that she comes from a different social and political context than those found in America.

    It’s actually worse if one acknowledges that she attributes violence and single motherhood to Black culture without acknowledging individual free will, as you clarify her position, because then she clearly displays zero ability to differentiate between Black people. So here’s the point: a person who believes that all Black people come from a culture that supports and excuses violent criminal behavior and single motherhood is a racist. To believe such prejudice and act on those beliefs is to exhibit racism in American society.

    BigWOWO, you and Max may not wish to acknowledge ChineseMom’s racism, but again, she’s not talking about you. You lament that I’m not nicer in my disagreement with her views, but again, she’s not talking about you. You suggest that people should acknowledge the cultural differences she imposes on these conversations, but again, she’s not talking about you.

    In defense of ChineseMom and folk like her, you defend odious prejudice. You parse my language to suggest inaccuracy, you accuse me of cultural monolingualism, and you disagree with the obvious characterization, because all of that is easier than acknowledging that some elderly first-generation Chinese people, like ChineseMom, are racist as hell. You don’t agree with her, of course, but you’d prefer another word was used to describe her. ‘Racist’ just doesn’t seem respectful.

    What you fail to realize is that ChineseMom should broaden her horizons to understand that her Wechat reasoning on Black people and Black culture is not accurate, and associates all Black people — no matter how upwardly mobile or educated or prominent — with the worst urban depravity. People who do this, as I explained before, do not deserve my respect. Or yours.

    ChineseMom is a racist, until she understands her errors in judgment, until she understands that not all Black people are alike. BigWOWO, when you want to name her racism something less difficult, you seek to deny an honest characterization of ChineseMom’s rhetoric. That’s evidence of a closed mind on a subject, but again, she’s not talking about you.

  192. Snoopy and ChineseMom are coming from two very different ideas culture. One would dismiss it for not making room for his strong individualism. The other too strong on culture, which trends towards a stereotype.

    Culture is not very helpful if you want to make distinctions with high contrast. We are all different on an individual level, yet you will also find commonalities when you look at a group. You can likely find some norms in that group, yet you will find different levels of adhesion by individuals to the group. Does that negate there are some general norms? You will just have to live with the ambiguity.

  193. jman is right. Max is right. King is right. I’m so glad to be able to read so much common sense here in the midst of the Extreme College Liberal Set which is so typical of the Asian American interwebs.

    Snoopy,

    It’s actually worse if one acknowledges that she attributes violence and single motherhood to Black culture without acknowledging individual free will, as you clarify her position, because then she clearly displays zero ability to differentiate between Black people.

    She actually did the opposite of what you just said–both in terms of individuals and cultures. Both, in her view, are subject to free will. And she differentiates between you and King all the time. I’m pretty sure I remember her saying that she respected King’s logic, and that she was in awe of your emotion.

    BigWOWO, you and Max may not wish to acknowledge ChineseMom’s racism, but again, she’s not talking about you. You lament that I’m not nicer in my disagreement with her views, but again, she’s not talking about you. You suggest that people should acknowledge the cultural differences she imposes on these conversations, but again, she’s not talking about you.

    So once again, it’s all about you. It always has to be all about you. I hate to point this out, but King talks to her without letting emotion run wild. Ms. Catwalq, back in the day, never let emotion run wild. I’ve had conversations with people like Asian of Reason who said some pretty bad things about my race–not even my culture–and I didn’t let emotion run wild. Why can’t I expect you to be able to have conversations about difficult topics? Seriously. Is there some sort of badge of honor in the extreme liberal community that comes from your ability to storm out and misinterpret everything because you’re showing emotion?

    Jenn once asked me how we could “elevate” the conversation. The answer is we-cannot-elevate-the-conversation, not as long as extremists cling to their intolerance of people outside of liberal dogma. The inconvenient truth, Snoopy, is that people in YOUR CULTURE (not Black culture, but in Liberal Extremist culture) are so emotionally fragile that you lose control at even the slightest indication of disagreement or difference of opinion. It bothers me a lot. I think you and Jenn are both nice people, but you’re so easily offended that anything that disrupts your world of “me first” sets you off. ChineseMom was trying to tell you what Chinese people were actually saying (since her Chinese is obviously better than Jenn’s–and let’s not make the ridiculous argument that it isn’t), and Jenn used “You commented on my parents!” as an excuse for banning her. Even math and general common sense are offensive in your culture. How are we supposed to “elevate” the conversation when y’all make dogmatic agreement a prerequisite to conversation?

    Seriously, Snoopy. Allan Bloom wrote about this toxic anger before you and I were even in college. Enough is enough. We really need to turn College Extreme Liberal Culture around. THAT is the way to “elevate” the conversation. Let’s get rid of the intolerance so that we can have a talk without people storming off before getting to the heart of the discussion.

  194. It bothers me a lot. — BigWOWO

    This is the funny part. In no sense have I expressed a emotive response to anything in this conversation. None of this bothers me at all — not ChineseMom’s racism or your embarrassed attempts to explain it away. All these needless deflections about supposed liberal intolerance (a theory concocted by conservatives to sell books to low information voters turned off by the educated, in my view) serve only to distract from the real point here — that cultural explanations for human behavior do not work.

    This is the opposite of what you attempt in your original post, but you were wrong there, and you are wrong now. Lest we forget, here’s a random comparison of Asian immigrants with Black culture by ChineseMom:

    We Asian immigrants are ingrained with Asian values which are the opposite from Black American culture in my observations: we extremely anti-violence, anti-single motherhood, we value academic and hard-working, we don’t have any entitlement, we are eager to improve ourselves and taking responsibility for ourselves instead of blaming everything on others. If this lead to anti-blackness impressions, so be it. — ChineseMom

    Most importantly, we don’t have this victimhood mentality and don’t see everything through race lens. We don’t have double standards, don’t ask people of other races to be better or more tolerant than us.

    I think our only guilt is that we weren’t instill with this extremely sense of equality like native born Americans, because most of us came from developing countries where this kind of equality can not be afforded. We are also guilty of not being able to express ourselves in more articulate and politically correct ways, because we were not trained like native born Americans. We are not good at “propaganda” or expressing ourselves in the best possible light as I said in the other thread. These are our culture weaknesses. — ChineseMom

    Notice the Manichean perversity under which ChineseMom views the world, BigWOWO. To her, Asian immigrants are socially positive, guilty only of poor public expression. Blacks are violent, promiscuous, and whiny. Knowing this is how she feels, you still recoil from the suggestion that’s she’s a racist, accusing me of thin-skinned hyperbolic anger whenever I raise the point.

    Well, I haven’t stormed off. I’m completely dispassionate when I tell you: ChineseMom is a racist. Since you disagree, please explain how you can read those quotes and find the suggestion that ChineseMom is a racist unreasonable.

    So we can elevate the conversation.

  195. This is the funny part. In no sense have I expressed a emotive response to anything in this conversation.

    James, if that were true, you would never have thrown that water bottle.

    Come on man. Have you not noticed that all of that aside, we’re nearly on the same side?? It’s like the objectives have been hijacked in favor of some methods.

    You need to choose which side you’re on in America: the side that manufactures consent, or the side desperately trying to find real solutions to the real problems.

    What if instead of people just giving you assent you could actually mobilize a volunteer corps of people willing to work for an ideal over years, instead of just over a 3 year cycle of protests?

    This is supposed to be our time. You going to choose to be a pawn or will you try something different?

  196. Oh yeah, and I almost forgot to say.

    James, you can’t use “Chinesemom” the way you have a mind to if you’re serious about progress.

    It’s kind of obvious that you’re desperately trying to use her to discredit this whole blog, even though nearly everybody here disagrees with her on MANY topics.

    It’s something you’ve done before and it’s a pattern. Just because this blog allows freedom of expression with less censorship, you abuse the trust this blog allows and desperately try to associate its voice and theme with that of the guests allowed to speak here.

    Nothing else brings out the difference between your wife’s blog, than this. On your wife’s blog you ban anything that you deem to be against the message. Maybe out of a need to protect her. But here, we defend what we must. Every day, every time, no exceptions. We even suffer passive aggressive trolls like “Kyrie”. This guy has even less to add than you do on a bad day, in my opinion. I can always count on James Lamb to heap ad hominems and straw men to serve an ideal. There are others who have nothing less than passive aggressive anger.

    Let us try something different.

    Why don’t we try to talk about policy, about culture, about behavior, about thought and it’s causes and effects, WITHOUT resort to straw men and ad hominems? I always call “Chinesemom” a fucking commie but you don’t need to. You just need to try harder to explain how affirmative action really helps poor minorities, because as it stands now, I’m beginning to think it’s wiser for them to abandon it altogether and shift to a harder right-wing core, if there’s no feasible alternative to that. One side says rise up, the other says let us give you crumbs and “hope”.

  197. The problem, Sengge, is that it’s difficult to have a meaningful discussion about policy when some participants rehash false, misleading, and prejudiced views of entire racial groups. Take affirmative action — we can debate the topic, but not if some of us in the discussion assume the model minority myth to be true. It’s difficult to have a domestic policy discussion when some participants assume Black intellectual inferiority myths to be true. We can’t have a fact-based discussion when some people speak only on what no one cannot prove.

    There’s no need for strawmen and ad hominems; on this we agree. But there’s also no need for people like me to engage debates where other participants require me to defend Black intellectual achievement. ChineseMom isn’t someone whose views are commonplace here. But the blog owner considers my views problematic, and accuses me of all manner of emotional instability, while he patiently, subtly, meekly disagrees with only the most odious of ChineseMom’s race rants, allowing her free reign to spout prejudice about Black people.

    I don’t discredit this blog. This blog discredits itself.

  198. Sengge:

    This is supposed to be our time. You going to choose to be a pawn or will you try something different?

    You couldn’t have raised a better point. None of us is getting any younger. It really doesn’t get better than what we have right now. We’re young enough to still have energy, and we’re experienced enough to know what works and what doesn’t. This is the time to make a difference. One can’t make a difference if one is just repeating the same ol’ ad hominem “But you’re racist!” like a broken record.

    Snoopy,

    It’s mind-boggling how you can quote ChineseMom’s statements about her OWN culture and somehow use it to only talk about yourself. You’re not even listen to what she’s saying. She was talking about her OWN cultural weaknesses, and then you’ve gotta turn it around to make yourself into the victim. Again. Why? Because it’s all about you. There’s no world outside of you. There’s no culture outside of your own College Extreme Liberal culture. It’s all about you, even when ChineseMom is talking about her own culture. You always have to play the victim.

    Take affirmative action — we can debate the topic, but not if some of us in the discussion assume the model minority myth to be true. It’s difficult to have a domestic policy discussion when some participants assume Black intellectual inferiority myths to be true.

    Yeah, I know. That’s what I’m complaining about when it comes to your mindset.

    The most ironic thing about your opinion here is that people assume all sorts of things, but somehow that doesn’t stop King or me or Notty or ChineseMom or anyone else on this blog from having a conversation…with anyone. What you said above is the problem that I have with your (Extreme College Liberal) culture. You can’t discuss anything unless your conversation partner already agrees with you. That’s a major disadvantage. Actually, it’s a contradiction. It’s not really a “debate” if the precondition is that we already have to agree.

    This is what a blog discussion on Reappropriate typically looks like:

    Jenn: So what you do all think about affirmative action? I think it’s good.
    Participant 1: I’m against it because it discriminates against Asians.
    Jenn: You’re banned. Next!
    Participant 2: I’m against it, and although I can understand why YOU are for it…
    Jenn: You said “you.” You’re not allowed to talk about the other person, only ideas. So YOU are banned! You shoulda read the comment policy. Next!
    Participant 3: I support affirmative action in college undergraduate admissions, and I support it in the workplace, but I don’t know if I necessarily support it for companies that have less than 5 employees.
    Jenn: That’s a great point. It’s so great that we can have a conversation while respecting differences in opinion.

    Snoopy, it’s funny, but I’m not all that far off the mark. Your idea of “disagreement” or “differences” is what most of us here would call TOTAL AGREEMENT. If assumptions don’t align–even in areas where assumptions USUALLY don’t align–you can’t seem to discuss things. And that’s a problem because you’re effectively writing off…most of humanity.

  199. It’s mind-boggling how you can quote ChineseMom’s statements about her OWN culture and somehow use it to only talk about yourself. — BigWOWO

    Clearly, in context her statements about her culture were obvious dismissals of Black culture. Nothing about the statement “We Asian immigrants are ingrained with Asian values which are the opposite from Black American culture in my observations: we extremely anti-violence, anti-single motherhood, we value academic and hard-working, we don’t have any entitlement, we are eager to improve ourselves and taking responsibility for ourselves instead of blaming everything on others.” can be reasonably viewed as anything other than an attack on Black cultures and Black people, BigWOWO.

    To pretend such language is reasonable or wholly self-directed is farce, and illustrates your total disregard for meaningfully challenging racists within your community.

    The most ironic thing about your opinion here is that people assume all sorts of things, but somehow that doesn’t stop King or me or Notty or ChineseMom or anyone else on this blog from having a conversation…with anyone. — BigWOWO

    This is not accurate. You have difficulty when you talk to people who do not agree with your position, as you learned on Facebook recently. Your conservatism is not always prized; it just so happens that most regular commenters here appreciate your right-of-center attacks on affirmative action. This is an echo chamber, nothing more.

  200. Snoopy, I had no problems on Facebook. It’s actually the same problem there as here. When people can’t take hard medicine, they often take it personally. In such company, I usually don’t want to say so much because…TRIGGER WARNING…BYRON’S HERE! I’ll talk all day, but not if it means that certain people are going to start cutting themselves or start feeling suicidal because they can’t stand a difference of opinion or worse, the idea that they might be WRONG. When extremists from both the Left and the Right start bringing up their pasts about how they’ve been hurt when it has NOTHING to do with the context of the conversation, then I know it’s time for me to make an exit. It’s not because I have a problem. It’s because they have a problem. I’m just trying not to make their problem worse.

    Actually, you bring this up at a good time. There was a guy who actually agreed with me on a lot of stuff a while back, but I wouldn’t engage with him because he was suicidal:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2016/09/in-the-minds-of-those-on-the-left-and-right-extremes/#comment-324681

    I withdraw because of compassion. I’m not willing to press an issue if it means someone is going to hurt himself/herself or not be able to function as a normal human being as a result of our “conversation.”

    I still don’t think you should call me “conservative.” I’m 100% liberal on the environment, gay marriage, and other stuff that Asian American feminists don’t care as much about. Fiscally, yes, I’m “conservative” like Bill Clinton. On affirmative action, man, I’m just common sense!

    This conversation about ChineseMom reminds me of how much I love the term “culturally monolingual.” It reminds me of Japan where lots of the foreigners remained linguistically monolingual because they just didn’t want to talk to people different from them, or they just didn’t want to feel stupid by exposing themselves to people who knew more about a language that they didn’t know. They wanted just to be “teachers.” It’s the exact same thing here, Snoopy. Your ego is getting in the way of your relationships with people who aren’t from your culture.

  201. Snoopy, your lack of concern about anyone other than members of your tribal group speaks volumes about YOUR tribal affiliation and lack of concern about others. That is why you didnt give a shit when white racists were trolling the blog, if anything you probably felt a measure of shadenfreude to see your opponents maligned as just payback, doesnt seem like the morally right thing to do or anything resembling spiritual practice or maturity . Actions speak louder than words, and while it is not obligatory for you to think of members of people outside of your tribal group, no matter what you say your lack empathy is more than telling of your double standards.

    Also this is about you and not me, nice ad hominem attack to turn the tables. First of all I dont know chinesemom and I dont really give a shit about her. I dont speak for her or anyone else but myself.

    but the evidence presented thus far and the heuristics of your behavior suggest the possibility that you and your cohort may have been in the wrong.

    On your first point i do agree, nobody is making such a statement however it is not silly to make an argument to illustrate that the line between legitimate discernment and “racism” can get blurred quite easily which is why you maybe having fits with Chinesemom, add in to the fact that english is her second language and the possibility of misunderstandings arise without giving a fair account of what she really thinks or feels.

    I dont know exactly what her stance is but I honestly dont think anyone here is stupid enough to associate ALL black people with those very stereotypes that you mention when reality clearly shows that not to be the case.

  202. Snoopy Jenkins’ “tribal group” is only limited to the hetero-normative black male demographic, and only those who are toeing the SJW corporate line of victimology of BMs can do no wrong. As abhorrent those popo MURDERS of unarmed black males in the media are, I think James Lamb does even greater disservice to their memories and social progress by his narrative of victim mentality.

    Even when King spoke about how some form of “personal responsibility” people need to have as grown adults, James Lamb still wants to persistently blame others, especially Asian men, for the wrongs of racist ‘Murican society. Obviously, this is because Asians are the easiest scapegoating demographic.

    When the questions have been brought up before about BF complaints of BM hypergamy, the same old Fang-xplaining indifference and even disturbing social Dawrinist attitudes come up and James Lamb have stated that BFs have no gripe just like AMs have no gripe.

    The same questions have also been posed to him about black community’s (God fearing) homophobia and instead James Lamb opts to go on crazy tantrums against John Cho, bigWOWO, and others for questioning racist Haolewood’s agendas to make most AMs characters and actors gay and attempt to homophobia shame everybody else in order to deflection attention.

    It’s getting really old and tiring.

  203. I dont know exactly what her stance is but I honestly dont think anyone here is stupid enough to associate ALL black people with those very stereotypes that you mention when reality clearly shows that not to be the case. — Max

    I applaud your faith in humanity, Max.

  204. @Aardvark
    Name one policeman who said that it’s alright to shoot Black youths? You can’t name one because you’re talking out of your ass.
    Have you ever encounter a malevolent Black person? I have! Until you do, you have no right to talk.
    One more thing. They are called policeman not popo.

  205. @Siegfried the racist troll,

    Am I God and supposed to know and hear everything that every popo ever said in private? Or are the popo so stupid as to publicly admit they’re racist, or think they can get away with it these days?

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/black-lives-matter-11-racist-police-killings-with-no-justice-served-20141204

    Also, I’ve encountered “malevolent” black people and white people and brown people and yellow people before. What’s your point other than you’re a racist POS?

  206. @Aardvark the liar
    The only reason you guys post so much because you can’t get any. Probably due to sexual frustration. Now, quit calling me racist because I dare speak out against black violence. I’m not reading that inaccurate liberal magazine Falling Stones. If you make a statement and can’t back it up with facts, you have no business posting it all. I said all I want to on this subject and I’m not posting any more. Got to get ready for my date! Too bad you won’t be getting any.

  207. Siggy is correct. I just think aadvark is bewildering. He dislike his fellow Asians due to negative experiences, yet he defends them against non-Asians.

    The fact that many AMs have a harder time with IR, than let’s say Black men of the same social status, Black on Asian crime, becomes more of a poignant issue to them. The same applies to the issue of URMs stealing admission spots reserved for Asians at the Ivy Leagues.

  208. And let’s face it. Asians do pretty well for a minority group that doesn’t push the envelope. It’s BS that Asians in America are oppressed. Just plain BS!

  209. No matter how far you push the envelop, it’s still stationary.

    Siegfried and Chr are racist Haole trolls, nothing new there. Chr’s statement is the most pernicious and racist of all: ignoring the anti-Asian violence that’s pervasive in lieu of the model minority myth.

  210. Just BS from all those unremarkable AMs like you who complain.

    How is it that a Puerto Rican creates a hip hop performance in honor of a dead, perhaps very racist, White Man, Alexander Hamilton and takes it into dizzying heights?

    Are Puerto Ricans better received than Asians among the White Power Structure?

    Do you think an AM could ever create such a sensation? There are so many AMs in Hip Hop. Maybe there is so much hatred towards AMs that they can’t get anywhere in America.

    You’re full of shit.

  211. And there are Whites who dislike the very successful, Hamilton Musical, simply out of jealousy. They’ll come up with all kinds of stupid reasons from calling it a distortion of reality, the non-White racial makeup of our Founding Fathers to Whites losing their influence in America, a country in which they found and built.

  212. @Aardvak

    You called me a “racist troll.” The last time I looked Barack Obama is the first black president of the Untted States. I voted for him and not John McCain. So how can I be a racist? It’s his policy that made me voted for Mitt Romney in 2012. This is why I voted for Trump in 2016. Obama liberal policies was leading this country down the wrong road.

  213. @Siegfried,

    Pics or it didn’t happen! lol

    Also, you have no core principles if you flip-flop worse than Trump on coke at his casino’s “gentlemen” rooms.

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