Angry Little Asian Girl threatens to sue Angry Asian Man

I saw this on 8 Asians.

Here’s Angry Little Asian Girl’s side of the story: Why the “Angry Asian Man” is pissing me off. [Edit: alternate copy here]

And here’s Angry Asian Man’s side: I am being threatened with an Angry Asian lawsuit.

Angry Asian Man is a popular blogger, and I’m not surprised that much of the Asian blogosphere is jumping in to support him. Plus, he’s a dude, and well, male privilege. But in any dispute, I think we have to step back and look at it from the legal aspect, not the popularity aspect.

So here’s my two cents:

From Lela’s description, it seems to me that there may have been numerous violations of her trademark, intentional or not. The names and themes are both very similar, and it does look like the male Angry was “inspired” by the female Angry, which is why (I’m assuming) that there was talk about transitioning to a new name, such as “mad, mad Asian dude” or “Angry Asian America.” (Personally, I think Angry Asian America isn’t a bad name. I actually like it better than Angry Asian Man.) It looks like she relies on her brand as a professional artist, so I can understand her anger over the similarities.

Still, I think Angry Asian Man also raises a very strong point about Angry Little Asian Girl’s timing. If she knew about it in 2005, it may be hard for her to fight it now. It may be like my neighbor’s fence. If I see my neighbor building a fence that encroaches two feet past my property line, I have to mention it right away. I can’t wait for him to finish building the fence and then demand that he tear it down. It may be true that it wasn’t a problem for the female Angry back then before the male Angry was professional, but I think it was clear where the male Angry was going. It seemed clear to me anyway that he was always headed for the professional ranks, which could mean that she had a duty back then to contact her lawyer. It doesn’t look good that she blogged for him in 2013, long after he was already a big name in the AA blogosphere.

Anyway, I’m not a lawyer. I can understand Lela’s claim that it dilutes her brand, but I can also appreciate that Phil has spent 14 years building his. Hopefully they can find a resolution.

61 thoughts on “Angry Little Asian Girl threatens to sue Angry Asian Man

  1. Did you notice this from one of Lela’s e-mails…………

    And you, you a Korean boy prince who was probably doted on by his parents because you were born a boy, started your blog “largely out of boredom.” ????!!!!!

    Disappointing that she would be coming from that place. Plus, she has also made personal snide remarks about his family, his wife, and his financial situation.

    That aside, am I missing something when she suggests that he use the name “Angry Asian America”? Isn’t the problem his use of the word “angry” in juxtaposition to “Asian”?

  2. This is what I’m talking about.

    Asians with a sense of entitlement. Asian bloggers have a inflated sense of self-importance. They don’t actually care about solving problems facing Asian Americans. All they care about is inflating their status within the Asian community, and appeasing white people.

    Like I said in a previous post which some of you were too stupid to understand, when “HapaMama” complains about “Where are all the AA mom bloggers?”, you know they only care about themselves.

  3. What do you mean by male privilege? Are you talking about Lela Lee’s new post, where she goes on about how sexist Asians are, implies they beat girls? Anyway I’d be interested in seeing what the legal outcome is. No settlements please. Hope they stay true to their brands about being angry.

  4. Ben,

    I agree that that was a pretty low blow. I think part of the problem was that he didn’t respond to her in a timely manner, so she got angry.

    I think “Angry Asian America” was supposed to be a concession on her part. Still, considering he’s the more well-known of the two, I’m wondering if the court will just make him hand over the domain name.

    Bob,

    Both Phil and Lela blog/create/promote for a living. They both have brands that they use to feed their families. Did you know that there’s a whole USPTO dedicated to protecting trademarks? Trademark law has nothing to do with having a “sense of entitlement.” It’s about the legal rights to build a name.

    Now is there a way that they can piggyback off one another? Maybe. Maybe not. But it’s really not for you and me to decide, since we’re not a part of their brands.

    Hell, maybe they don’t agree on everything. Maybe they vehemently disagree on issues. If this is the case, I don’t see why one would just roll over for the other.

    cjh,

    Are you saying you want to see a fight? 🙂

    I’m a bit torn on the “male privilege” issue now. I totally see what you and Ben are saying. I think in the grander scheme of things, she’s the one with privilege since she’s an Asian woman in a White man’s world.

    That said, I think my point was that in the AA blogosphere, so many people are used to Asian American feminist craziness (no offense to anyone reading this), so many will readily write her off, even though it does look like her intellectual property arguments have strong merit.

  5. bigWOWO,
    Yes I think the fight would be interesting and would be consistent with their self-identities about being aggressive. It seems the Lela Lee is already expanding the topic to Asian sexism, so perhaps this community can talk about Asian male privilege as well. I’m also interested in intellectual property law, so I want to see how far the law goes in terms of trademark rights, out of pure curiosity.

  6. cjh:

    Contrary to what many people are saying, I’m starting to see that getting this out there might not be a bad thing for the Asian American media community as a whole. Of course it’s painful for both ALAG and AAM right now, but it’s better than the alternative, which is to just to silently let things bother us. They’ll reach a resolution somehow. So yes, I see your point.

  7. In some sense, this is just a smaller battle of the larger social conflict induced upon the APIA community by white mainstream and media decision makers.

    There’s a really bad corporate jargon term that’s really needed her: synergy.

    “Angry Asian America” sounds like a great “brand name” they can both use to cross-promote each other.

    But alas, like Bob said, Asians are more interested to fight each other from their inferiority-complexes and appease the white mainstream than to help each other. And we’ll be getting even more of the ugly “pin the tail on the Asian man” types of accusations from the celebrity club… T_T

  8. Alright, let’s play, Aardvark.

    So let’s say Phil supports affirmative racism against Asian Americans in college admissions. I don’t know if he does, but let’s just say so for the sake of argument. Now let’s say Angry Little Asian Girl is against affirmative racism for Asian Americans.

    Why should Angry Little Asian Girl be forced to share her brand that she created with someone who supports racism and takes a stand against her values?

    Again, I have no idea where Phil stands on affirmative racism, but it’s an example of where two people might differ, even if both are Asian.

  9. @Byron,

    Phil Yu supports affirmative action, the Ramakrishnan brand, because he’s posted Ramakrishan’s letters and essays many times along with Jenn Fang’s editorials on his blog.

    You can’t expect two people to ever agree on the same things, ever. Even husbands and wives disagree and so do siblings. Ultimately there are no winners in this and it’s “the community” that suffers from all these pointless intra-bickering…

    HOWEVER, with that said, it is very much a case of egos and inferiority complexes to get a bigger slice of the pie – the latest APIA spending numbers. If what Phil Yu and Lela Lee are saying is true, then it appears Lela Lee is “angry” (is that word allowed and not trademarked by her?) because he has more reach and could potential sell products under the brand name that she doesn’t have the marketing for. Or else, they could still do the same things they were doing before with cross promotions.

    How else do you explain that Lela Lee wants Phil Yu’s domain name? It’s a total different issue than brand/trademark infringement. And I doubt any court would seriously entertain that Lela Lee has ownership over everything that contains “Angry Asian..” in the name.

  10. what a big joke she is.
    She thought folks would side with her.
    But it turned out otherwise, so now she is crying sexism and reposting gay mixed asian male’s stupid analog as defense.

    The analog describes the public’s opinion against her stance as equivalent to mixed asian male’s grandpa beating grandma. The good old joy luck club evil man card is out, therefore you are all wrong, she is right. Go to hell. Now give her money.

    most people know about angryasianman than her blog or work. If anything, she is infringing on his brand.

  11. It’s totally stupid and blown way out of proportion; but people just like drama and controversy.

    Sadly, nothing will come out of this except more hating along the gender divide and white guys are the winners. T_T

  12. Aardvark,

    I think you’re missing the point.

    Let’s say you and I were to start a business making asian cartoons, and we mostly wrote about what we discuss here. We call our business bigWOWO. It’s the only job we have. Now let’s say your Snoopy and Jenn buy bigWOOWOO.com. They’re out there more, and they’ve got friends in high liberal places.

    Now whenever we go to trade shows or conferences, people say, “I know you guys. You’re the guys who accused David Choe of rape! You’re the ones who said that the shopkeeper was wrong to stop Michael Brown from stealing. You accused that mortgage broker of fleecing black people and found the ultimate solution to IR: Asian guys can just be gay! I’m a huge fan of yours. I want five of your T-shirts!” It’s not about the money.

    It could be the opposite for Snoopy/Jenn: “Aren’t you the guy who said that Asian feminists like to pin the tail on the Asian male? Aren’t you that person who believes in meritocracy?”

    Do you see what the problem is?

    Look, I promote Jenn all the time. She’s the closest thing to a blog counterpart that I have. But we’re our own brand. I have a right to my brand, just as she has a right to hers. I don’t see how it would help us to commingle brands.

    And I’d be pissed if she stole my brand, the same way I’m sure she’d be pissed if I did the same.

  13. I don’t have a website/blog for the same reasons: too much headaches. lol

    But I think your politics and Jenn Fang’s are disparate enough that there’s no chance you’d go into business together, whereas I don’t think Lela Lee and Phil Yu even intersect enough on the same topics.

    I do see Jenn Fang would have an issue with “reappropriate” as it’s generic enough of a term there’d be confusions for trademarks.

    Ultimately it’s all about money. My price tag is $100million to endorse Snoopy Jenkins’ affirmative action policies. lol

  14. I meant it like Phil Yu would be the editorial and Lela Lee would be like the comics section of a larger blog; yomyomf bloggers certainly don’t agree on everything either.

  15. Bryon,
    I got to disagree.
    Wow…just wow…talk about disunity. This sounds more like greed than anything else. I mean why didn’t she sue him earlier way back in 2005?

    I think because she has a show on MNET and wants to profit whatever she can. I don’t think it’s too much about social discourse but profits. I mean I see them as two different brandnames.
    Plus her comments
    “And you, you a Korean boy prince who was probably doted on by his parents because you were born a boy, started your blog “largely out of boredom.” ????!!!!!” , Talk about being bitter. But Asian American guys growing up in America being privilege ??? You got to be kidding me.!! I mean as an Asian man have you every felt l privilege in America. OK..I get it she talking about Asian culture that can be sexist but last I check we all live in USA where last I check it seems like Asian women have a bit higher value than Asian men do at least in the dating market.

    And in her next paragraph she belittles him for not having a main job.
    “Are you even making any money? What about your wife? Does she enjoy supporting your job that makes “donations”?”,

    I mean wow…speak about being hypocritical..they say when you mad your true colors comes out. I mean which is it that she wants . Does she want the Asian man to play the traditional bread winner role or is she against traditional Asian sexism that favors boys?

  16. Angry Asian Man? What is that? Another website where Asian men cry about being victims over stupid and trivial shit? Because Asian men are Victims?

    When I think of Angry Asian man, I think of a dog who has been neutered but then started taking cheap testosterone supplements. Just enough to irritate his neutered testicle-less condition but not enough to do anything about it except whine like a bitch. But maybe if he whines loud enough he can get the whole neigborhood howling.

  17. Aardvark,

    Yes, you would probably never catch us cross-posting across blogs.

    But still, maybe that’s the point. If Lela and Phil are similar enough to be viewed as more or less the same, why should Lela allow him to use her name?

    In other words, one trademarks one’s brand for a reason. If she never intended to enforce it, why would she bother even dealing with the trademark office in the first place?

    John,

    I’m sure it is about profits. But she herself is a for-profit entity! That’s what I’ve been saying all along–this is her business. And it’s his business too. His business might be threatening her business, which could be a serious problem for her and her family.

    I agree with you on the personal comments. But I think she was just angry and lost it for awhile. It happens with artists.

    Sengge:

    Well, the neighborhood is howling loudly!

    What is bothering me is that despite the fact that people in this space often decry sexism, the howling attacks on Lela on Twitter and other sites (thank you all here for being calm and rational) have been some of the most sexist comments I’ve seen–people calling her “bitter,” or attacking her business sense, or talking about how she should just roll over and let whatever happens happen. Even “feminists” are launching these attacks against her. It’s ironic.

    Again, I can see both sides. But man, Lela is really getting slammed here by people who have no shame in attacking a woman.

  18. Phil Yu’s “brand” – all 14 years of it – is online grievance collection. It’s the type of activity a lone nutter would do when he compiles daily lists of people that have wronged him and pissed him off, and just the presence of the “list” itself serves as “notice” and a threat to those on it. The similarities between the contents of that site and that of a mass murderer’s obsessive compulsive manifesto is striking – except for one key difference: when has anybody ever seen Phil Yu angry in person? When has he ever shown anger? Has Phil Yu ever been angry at any of the stuff he posted on his website, the way a normal grievance collector would be? No. The only one getting angry is the reader.

    Phil Yu’s website like other toxic places like Model Minority (and other places created by bottom tier humans) are essentially grooming their own audiences into becoming nutless dogs hooked on getting high on the “angry drama”. He profits from it and gains fame and influence.

    If I were Lela Lee I would file the suit for this reason alone. Why would I want my loveable comic characters to be associated with a potential favourite website of a killer who ate his victim’s face on a bus before being shot dead by police on the spot?

  19. Sengge:

    Well, the neighborhood is howling loudly!

    What is bothering me is that despite the fact that people in this space often decry sexism, the howling attacks on Lela on Twitter and other sites (thank you all here for being calm and rational) have been some of the most sexist comments I’ve seen–people calling her “bitter,” or attacking her business sense, or talking about how she should just roll over and let whatever happens happen. Even “feminists” are launching these attacks against her. It’s ironic.

    Again, I can see both sides. But man, Lela is really getting slammed here by people who have no shame in attacking a woman

    I know, it’s such a difficult concept to understand isn’t it, the concept of a having a court of law, where people go to seek judgement to settle disputes.

    Imagine having the option of settling disputes via representations based on evidence, and having learned judgements based on reason, as opposed to public sentiment and personal opinions alone. Shock horror! Sky fall down

  20. @Byron,

    Leela’s “little meltdown” and publicly airing dirty laundry probably cost her much her business than Phil Yu could’ve potentially ever done.

    Like I said, it’s much more sensible to cooperate and profit together than this whole pointless online drama all over the blogs.

    I’m not defending Phil Yu, but in terms of “reach” it’s obvious that more people know of and are engaged by his news aggregator blog than by her comic strips and clothing.

    I met him a few times and he does come off as being kind of manipulative, but still overall a nice guy. I think the only “lone nutter” here is Sengge Rinchen who forgot his meds this morning and writing all these asinine rants to character assassinate somebody he’s probably never even met.

    As for Leela, I’m sure she’s a nice person within the legal limits, but the emails she sent to Phil Yu aren’t helping her cause – to say the least. She should worry more about PR and damage control instead of keep trying to push for lawsuits.

    As somebody on her blog wrote: they’re lawyers and they welcome the lawsuits. lol

  21. Imagine having the option of settling disputes via representations based on evidence, and having learned judgements based on reason, as opposed to public sentiment and personal opinions alone.

    What fantasyland are you living in that this is so? The Innocence Project have hundreds of possibly innocent prisoners (mostly who happens to be black because of racism of the jurors/judges) and there’s been plenty of other cases before where innocent people were put away in the US.

    I’m still not over Amanda Knox and her “white privilege.”

  22. The mediocre try to reconcile the irreconciliable; this is why the plaintive cry of just getting along is invoked often only to ridicule a position.

    But it’s sad when it’s invoked to ridicule one’s own position. 😀

  23. Yes. Synergy = added-value.

    “Can we all just get along” in this New Year? Gung Hay Fat Choy!

  24. If Lela Lee is “entitled” to defend her trademark, then she has the right to do so in a court of law. Suggesting anything else is fatuous.

    That article by Jeff Yang was too long so I didn’t read it. I also thought it concentrated disproportionately on giving me “the feels” as opposed to any solid points or tangibles.

    Lela Lee should consider that the alternatives floated to her come from interested persons in a very small and incestuous pool who are anxious in preserving the status quo, but the protections her trademark needs may not be able to be met with half-measures, acts and compromises that may erode it over the long run.

  25. Sengge,

    I just commented on Reappropriate.

    You know, I think the main problem with people is that they’re always talking about the “feels” without presenting it as such. There’s NOTHING wrong with talking about the “feels,” but if you talk about the “feels” and then pretend or trick yourself into thinking you’re talking cold, empirical fact, you run into problems.

    Jeff actually does an okay job in drawing this line, but the people who read him and comment on blogs are not so adept at this.

    You hit the nail with your last comment. What’s empowering is that she’s challenging the status quo and stepping out from what is expected of her. She really is angry–not just some comic book maker pretending to be angry. And she ought to be angry here, especially at the sexism thrown in her direction in the pretext of keeping community unity.

  26. Byron

    I pretty much agree with your take. I just think that it is worth noting that there seems to be an undercurrent of snark on both sides that might be residue from the online gender wars of the 90’s and early 00’s. Lela’s attacks on Phil’s masculinity and the subesquent sexism of some of those who support Phil are a testament to this. It won’t have an effect on the legalilties of the situation, but it makes for interesting observation.

    What is also intersting is how times have changed – perhaps 10 or so years ago support for each party would have been divided along gender lines. Now Asian feminists are defending Phil and Lela has some support from the Asian men.

    Personally, I think that some of Lela’s conerns about plagiarism are – ostensibly – reasonable and should be examined, but aside from that, from a layman’s perspective, I’m not seeing much infringement or conflict when it comes to content.

  27. Ben,

    Very true.

    It’s very funny how things change. I’m not a feminist. From everything I’ve seen, feminism these days, especially Asian American feminism, is simply a means of self-aggrandizement, something where logic and coherent thought go out the window in favor of sheer noise. It’s one of the most destructive forces. I’m not surprised that these feminists are attacking Lela and even encouraging her harassment. They’ve done worse!

    That said, those earlier online gender wars, through feminism, helped me to see what Lela’s going through right now. Look at this little gem:

    http://reappropriate.co/?p=7911#comment-1864183785

    “I think there needs to be immediate repercussions. But if she drops the suit then I think the community should fully forgive her and fully embrace her. Let it all be water under the bridge – we’ll act like none of this ugliness has ever happened.”

    Notice how he–a dude–is taking ownership of the situation. HE–through the “community”–is going to “forgive and fully embrace her.” With conditions, of course. THEN…through the power of male privilege…he will “act like none of this ugliness ever happened.” Shh…don’t tell anyone. It’ll just be our little secret.

    If that’s not creepy, I don’t know what is.

  28. I think the key point to bear in mind is that women are fully capable of free will and self-agency. Therefore, “SOME” (we have to play this semantics game) women will “hijack” the name of “feminism” (because I just typed out the other thread about “hijacking” religions) for their own agendas.

    Calling themselves something vs writing/acting out their belief systems are different and most of the time people can’t articulate it themselves.

    With that said, women are diverse and all have different views and agendas and “some” will play politics and manipulations to achieve their goals.

    I think Phil Yu should now take down that article also in good faith and work it out with Lela Lee and synergize. But like I wrote before, he’s pretty much manipulative himself and the whole thing blew up because of her disparaging emails.

    Also, the APIA gender wars aren’t going to stop or abate soon, but only lies dormant until the next outbreak catalyst – like herpes. lol

    The best change is able to have our own self-determination of mass media portrayals, but that’s not going to happen soon.

  29. This … is awesome.

    BigWOWO recognizes that sexism and misogyny can debase conflicts, and speaks out against it. Kudos.

    Let’s hope this trend continues.

  30. Yet another example of Snoopy Jenkins’ Strawmans and spin doctoring. Nothing new to see, move along, move along.

  31. BigWOWO – It’s a very good sign when men point out the feminism they perceive in the world. It’s the only way any of us will learn from past mistakes. Is it the first I’ve seen of your taking issue with sexism and misogyny? No. But it’s also true that people are sometimes allowed to approach that brand of negativity in other debates without condemnation.

    So I’m glad you’re taking a stand. Keep it up.

  32. See, spin doctoring yet again. I’ve lived in the dirty South long enough to not let backhanded compliments go unnoticed by.

  33. Aardvark, you need help. Professional help. I hope you find the fully licensed psychiatrist you need.

    BigWOWO – I’m not sure I totally buy the argument that people who opposed Lela Lee’s trademark infringement claims spoke out of sexism and misogyny, but I am glad to see you take a stand against the sexism and misogyny you found in their opposition.

    Here’s hoping that you go after instigating assholes like Aardvark next.

  34. Aardvark, you need help. Professional help. I hope you find the fully licensed psychiatrist you need.

    Here’s hoping that you go after instigating assholes like Aardvark next.

    What’s that reappropriate policy about personal attacks? Guess it doesn’t apply to you personally and that’s why the bans and censorship. Hypocrite much?

  35. Aardvark, you are a fool.

    I don’t run Reappropriate. I have nothing to do with that site’s comment policy. My website is linked to my name. Don’t run behind an expected decorum you yourself do not follow. I think you are a simple, silly punk Aardvark. It’s one thing to flame me over something we actually disagree on; here you are spazzing out at me because I complimented someone else (not you) over taking on sexism in a debate.

    Literally every time I write anything here, you accuse me of something negative, no matter what I say. You don’t even read it, I think; you see a comment from Snoopy Jenkins and toss around crap. You won’t debate me directly, you won’t ignore comments I make that have nothing to do with you. Real talk – that makes you a straight up punk. So when your testicles finally drop out of your torso and you realize how adolescent you’ve been here, maybe we can have a reasonable conversation.

    Don’t be an infant, Aardvark. This conversation on the Angry Asian trademark can progress just fine without your grade school playground baiting.

  36. Byron, isn’t there a random fight thread or something? Cuz Snoopy looks like he’s about to have a Lela Lee style meltdown soon. lol

    Have a great weekend, Mr. backhanded compliment hypocrite. ;o)

  37. I pretty much agree with your take. I just think that it is worth noting that there seems to be an undercurrent of snark on both sides that might be residue from the online gender wars of the 90’s and early 00’s. Lela’s attacks on Phil’s masculinity and the subesquent sexism of some of those who support Phil are a testament to this. It won’t have an effect on the legalilties of the situation, but it makes for interesting observation.

    Attacks on personality and character are largely irrelevant when there are disputes. They are so common that they should be considered a given, that it would happen whenever individuals have problems and disputes with another.

    Where the line is drawn is where these attacks become part of a campaign.

    Lela’s nastiness and her thoughts of Phil, her possible baiting etc have very little bearing in a system where a court of law looks at facts and representations objectively. This is a matter between individuals. This has nothing to do with the merits of her case.

    But this changes if attacks on character are made via campaign, i.e organised messaging. By making such remarks of Phil in her email Lela did nothing wrong under law.

    But publishing said email, a private one what more, and then inviting SUPPORTERS to comment, and they say the SAME THING over and over again to seemingly drive home a subtle media message… this is the kind of thing that the law actually PUNISHES people for.

    To Jenn Fang and Jeff Yang’s credit they’ve stayed largely professional. Only their comments sections hold the majority of the character attacks on Lela.

  38. Byron, I think I am more disturbed by the “impartial opinions” directed her way than any of the comments I’ve seen thus far.

    You know what really strikes me is the way some pundits will say how they both know Lela and Phil as a disclaimer and acknowledgement of potential bias in the first paragraph.

    Then they proceed to write as if they were children who are confused and very upset that their parents are yelling at each other with so much anger. This kind of reaction is normal, it is very normal to me and for me to see.

    But what’s abnormal is how their pieces develop next. The little bits thrown out do not just run the gamut, they take the actual cake. Ranging from anything from thinly veiled allegations of how Lela’s comic can’t stand against an entity with more page views, to how her own fans and fanbase will turn against her, to how one of those said pundits will already never support her work again, just because.

    These are not objective views, contrary to earlier weak attempts at disclosing conflict of interest and bias. These are full blown manipulations and threats by parties with an interest in a certain outcome.

    Everything they’ve written is a deception.

    If a judge personally know either party in a case brought before him, he recuses himself. If a commander of anti-ISIL operations has his family kidnapped, and has been threatened with private communiques of their impending torture and mutilation at the hands of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, then he relinquishes his position so that someone else can take over.

    You see the judge does not just make a disclaimer that he is an interested party and then proceeds to give judgement on one or the other. The counter-terrorist commander does not just acknowledge his family has been captured and then proceed to act as if he is commanding at the best of his abilities, completely impartially and objectively without his BIASES and EMOTIONS and secret deals getting in the way.

    Byron, you are concerned about anonymous numbskulls playing dirty pool with Lela in comments section in the “echo chamber” James Lamb has brought to our attention.

    I am concerned about people secretly sympathetic with Lela’s antagonist bringing unsubtle, but also unacknowledged and unjustified pressure against her, the objective legal merits of her case, what more her life’s work.

    Little effort has been expended so far in buttressing Lela against these weasel tactics.

  39. Sengge,

    We all know these people are not unbiased. It’s so obvious. And yes, that bothers me too. Take one example. One blogger blogged about it, saying that she hardly knows either of them, and then mentioned many many times both in her posts and in the comment section that she’ll never buy Lela’s products again. This blogger said that Lela definitely has a weak case, though this blogger isn’t a lawyer and isn’t even a law student. And of course all the groupies jumped in. But no, she’s unbiased!

    If you think about it, lots of the “arguments” people have made are economic. People have been saying stuff like, “Oh, she’s gonna lose business!” First of all, they have no idea whether she’ll lose business. We have no idea whether the Phil supporters are the people who have ever supported her or who would ever buy her stuff. We also don’t know who is bothered by it. Most of the world probably has no idea what just happened–the only people who know are those in the AA blogosphere.

    But yes, that’s exactly the problem with the AA blogosphere. People subtly help their friends, and it’s such a small group that it’s incestuous. I have no idea whether she’ll win or lose, but I have respect for Lela for defending her rights.

  40. Snoopy,

    Thanks for your kind comments. I really do appreciate them.

    It’s a very good sign when men point out the feminism they perceive in the world. It’s the only way any of us will learn from past mistakes. Is it the first I’ve seen of your taking issue with sexism and misogyny? No. But it’s also true that people are sometimes allowed to approach that brand of negativity in other debates without condemnation.

    So I have to be nitpicky here. Lest I let something slide that ought not to slide–I’m not a feminist. I’m against Asian American feminism, as well as most Kingstonian feminism. I believe Asian American feminism is a destructive force that has hurt both men and women. The misrepresentations and outbursts from Asian American feminists give me a headache. But I’m as fierce as they come in demanding that women be treated with equal respect. It’s not because I’m a feminist. It’s because I believe in equality. In this respect, I agree with Lela Lee.

    And with that said–and I’ll say it here since I’d be banned on Reappropriate for saying so, even though it was raised there–I don’t think there has been a problem with sexism on this blog. YES, most of the women here have received some kind of sexist attack at one point or another, but we’ve nipped every attack in the bud. Someone once made a comment on Jenn’s looks, and I told them never to do it again. I told them one time, and neither they nor anyone else ever did it again. All of the other problems with “sexism” that a certain someone has mentioned are because a certain someone doesn’t use logic, not because a certain someone is female.

  41. If you think about it, lots of the “arguments” people have made are economic. People have been saying stuff like, “Oh, she’s gonna lose business!” First of all, they have no idea whether she’ll lose business. We have no idea whether the Phil supporters are the people who have ever supported her or who would ever buy her stuff. We also don’t know who is bothered by it. Most of the world probably has no idea what just happened–the only people who know are those in the AA blogosphere. – See more at: http://www.bigwowo.com/2015/02/angry-little-asian-girl-threatens-to-sue-angry-asian-man/#comment-294002

    Good point Byron.

    I’m sure I can leave out dissecting how their veiled threats were made. My fingers itch for it but I suppose they will have some better use.

    I’d like to highlight the point that Lela’s work and popularity is NOWHERE NEAR as vulnerable to these threats like they would have her believe.

    I’m not going to spill the beans, but let’s just say that Lela’s economic model has several significant, key advantages over her antagonist’s.

    Ambiguity with regards to her trademark is a bigger danger to her business model, because this ambiguity deters potential investors and partners from committing resources. Almost any kind of judgement represents a baseline from where further plans can be made, and this is to her advantage.

    The situation is the complete opposite for the other party. After all, didn’t he already get too big and too comfortable operating in a GREY AREA for fourteen years? Chuckle.

    Apart from the ambiguity around her trademark an even greater danger is if she somehow gets influenced by the messaging targeting her on social media, and tries to “get along” and compromise and satisfice on a solution to a problem grown big enough that it can no longer be swept under the carpet.

    We will see, but I hope to see the silence before Lela brings them the storm.

  42. I’m late to the party and missed Yu’s response.

    After reading Lela, Jeff Yang, MIn Jung and Jenn, my first reaction was:”Wow, these people are so much like us FOB in essence:)”

    I think it is completely understandable that Lela waited so many years to bring this thing up. Seeing Jeff’s comment about her legal action against Wendy Xu, it isn’t difficult to imagine what would happen had Lela done so 10 years ago. I just don’t quite understand why did Lela take this to online blogosphere instead of the court. This is her mistake.

    As for Yu, it looks like he took not only many “inspirations” from Lela, but also the credit. It is probably the taking credit part bothers Lela the most.

  43. especially Asian American feminism, is simply a means of self-aggrandizement, something where logic and coherent thought go out the window in favor of sheer noise. – See more at: http://www.bigwowo.com/2015/02/angry-little-asian-girl-threatens-to-sue-angry-asian-man/#comment-294074

    That sounds like the kind of general Asian-American “progressive” behaviour that I have been ranting about on my blog recently. Self-aggrandizement at all costs seems to be the order of the day. It shows that these progressives are out of touch with Asian-America and have to rely on denunciation and what amounts to mob tactics – as that reappropriate comment suggests – to force their bizarre viewpoint onto everyone.

  44. @ Bigwowo:

    I don’t think there has been a problem with sexism on this blog. YES, most of the women here have received some kind of sexist attack at one point or another, but we’ve nipped every attack in the bud. Someone once made a comment on Jenn’s looks, and I told them never to do it again. I told them one time, and neither they nor anyone else ever did it again. All of the other problems with “sexism” that a certain someone has mentioned are because a certain someone doesn’t use logic, not because a certain someone is female. – See more at: http://www.bigwowo.com/2015/02/angry-little-asian-girl-threatens-to-sue-angry-asian-man/#sthash.m1CyCl0t.dpuf

    I disagree, and I think you may be wearing some rose-tinted glasses on this issue. Sexism is kinda rife in the comments on this site… not all the time or on every post, but on some posts it can get way out of control. This is not your fault in particular, but by discussing Asian men’s issues you have also attracted some guys who have unhealthy views about women over the years. I agree that you are pretty good at shutting down guys who overstep the mark and make overtly misogynist comments, but I think the mere fact that these comments get made so frequently is a sign that it ain’t all good.

    The discussions of IR – one of the hot button issues for Asian American males – are almost guaranteed to bring out the misogyny in certain commenters. And while you endeavour to be balanced, your perspective on Asian women who date white men tends to be somewhat negative and I think this does set a tone.
    I’ve taken a bit of shit from some commenters over the years here for essentially arguing that Asian women should be able date whoever they want without being negatively judged for it, which is a fairly uncontroversial thing to say virtually anywhere except the Asian male blogosphere.

    I agree with you that some people like to blame disagreements on sexism when it may just be a disagreement based on logic. But that can be true without negating the presence of real sexism at the same time.

  45. But I’m as fierce as they come in demanding that women be treated with equal respect. – BigWOWO

    This is a great first step, without regard for what you choose to call yourself, BigWOWO. If anything, the disconnect emerges when disagreements over ideas devolve into attacks on people. Eurasian makes a sensible point: if you notice frequent attacks on women in this site, however meaningless, there’s still something wrong.

    Frankly, I don’t think it’s something that can be fixed. There are people who will never extend their belief in gender equality into debates on affirmative action, systemic poverty, or interracial relationships. For some, only the most blatant misogyny requires social sanction. When one needs nasty comments against a woman’s looks to rouse their revulsion against sexism, that speaks to an everyday permissiveness toward run-of-the-mill anti-woman vitriol that does not contribute to a welcoming environment for women at all.

    Put another way, I think it’s easier to defend Lela Lee than it is to grapple with the perspectives of Asian American feminists for you. Lela Lee won’t suggest that misogyny within the Asian American community requires redress from the very men who often feel slighted in dating. Lela Lee won’t speak against David Choe or Elliot Rodger, and she won’t encourage Asian women to retain personal choice in all their affairs, public and private. In short, Lela Lee’s right — she’s not a feminist. Supporting her in this conflict costs those resistant to feminist perspectives nothing, and those men can crow about their public defense of a damsel in distress. Win win.

    Make no mistake — it’s a genuine positive when men from all backgrounds recognize sexism and oppose it. Sexist attacks against shows like Scandal from Black men meet harsh sanction online, often from other Black men, and that makes perfect sense. So I still applaud your antagonism toward what you perceive as sexist attacks against Lela Lee, BigWOWO. Perhaps you will be as vigilant the next time some Asian American feminist points out sexism in her community, perhaps not. At any rate, it’s good to recall that you think sexism is possible within the community, a point that some have yet to acknowledge.

  46. But see E.S. you have to make the distinction versus comments that are sexist versus merely ideas that are deemed sexist. If the ideas are sexist they must be challenged vigorously, it’s not just enough to shut them down or censor them, because who decides.? Is it all the blog owner or does the reader have a chance to decide for themselves the merit or demerit of an argument?

    A lot of the stuff that went down here has disappeared ever since the bottom tier blog hobos were evicted. See how peaceful it is without incessant IR and PUA discussions. See how peaceful it is without attempts at Talibanising Asian men into viewing Asian women as some kind of exclusive right.

  47. Pingback: What Lela Lee confirms about Asian American feminism | bigWOWO

  48. Snoopy,

    You are so correct it isn’t even funny. I blogged about it here:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2015/02/what-lela-lee-teaches-us-about-asian-american-feminism/

    I’m not sure if you, as a non-Asian, really can feel the damage that Asian American feminism has wrought upon our community. I don’t blame you for not seeing this, but I do hope you can see it.

    Ben,

    I agree.

    ES/Snoopy/Sengge:

    I agree with Sengge.

    I think we did a good thing by pushing out the bottom tier. IR still comes up from time to time. I don’t fight it when it does because it’s still obviously an issue that young Asian men have to deal with. Nor do I think it’s always sexist–although I agree that some people (Sasaki Ken, for example) have some really misguided ideas about women. But yes, I think I probably agree with you too, E.S., that the comments sometimes cross into a gray area.

    But isn’t this always the case?

    Like the “forgiveness” dude who I mentioned above. He posted on Reappropriate, and he wasn’t corrected by anyone except me. His comment is as bad as anything you see here, only it’s worse–his came with an implied threat against a real Asian American woman’s business.

  49. Like the “forgiveness” dude who I mentioned above. He posted on Reappropriate, and he wasn’t corrected by anyone except me. His comment is as bad as anything you see here, only it’s worse–his came with an implied threat against a real Asian American woman’s business.

    There is no surprise there; after Hugo Schwyzer male feminists are allowed to have an opinion only when it comes to toeing the line set by their betters.

    That “male feminist” aka ass rimmer over there would only dare say something like that after a bona fide “feminist” (with ovaries) launched the broadside against another woman. Like a dog following the lead of the alpha, it signals to him that it is okay to attack. 😀

  50. @Ben,

    It shows that these progressives are out of touch with Asian-America and have to rely on denunciation and what amounts to mob tactics – as that reappropriate comment suggests – to force their bizarre viewpoint onto everyone.

    I just wrote about it in the other thread Byron just started. I think we should call it “sexism shaming” since that’s the default tactic anytime any AM brings up the issues of denigration by AF writers/filmmakers and critiques by AMs.

  51. I’m not going to spill the beans, but let’s just say that Lela’s economic model has several significant, key advantages over her antagonist’s.

    Ambiguity with regards to her trademark is a bigger danger to her business model, because this ambiguity deters potential investors and partners from committing resources. Almost any kind of judgement represents a baseline from where further plans can be made, and this is to her advantage.

    Great points, Sengge. I have a feeling we’re going to be talking more about this. Most of her detractors aren’t businesspeople and have no idea how the real world works.

  52. Pingback: Not Bowing to the Man | Where Are You From?

  53. They can become an Angry Asian For ‘Em and maybe we can all join forces. No one ever seems to notice all the stray angry blogs out there anyway — although I have been trying to keep count. Angry Asian For ‘Em would seem to unite the boys, girls, women, men, in-between. We might even get an anthology, tv-station to call home. ALAG, the doll is so cute, reminds me of Clifford the big Red Dog.

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