A few nights ago, I was sending someone a Yiyun Li video, and I stumbled across the video above, in which John Dabiri, a biophysicist and professor from Caltech, talks about his research. He won a MacArthur Fellowship in 2010 for his work in biophysics, which is a $500,000 no-strings-attached grant (also won by Yiyun Li for literature) to promote innovation and creativity from gifted individuals. Dabiri works on wind turbines and design, which could have a very positive influence on our economy if we ever succeed in cutting back on oil for more sustainable solutions. I was thinking to myself–”Hey, an African American scientist! Why isn’t the NAACP jumping on this and making a big deal about this guy?” While the NAACP is trying to create a racist, uneven playing field by eliminating real admissions requirements for schools, they’re missing some wonderful opportunities to promote people who could be real inspirations to their base. If you google “NAACP Dabiri,” you’ll get one endorsement from a pro-African American blogger, but no big NAACP endorsements/publicity.
Dabiri is actually the son of Nigerian immigrants, which means that he doesn’t fit into the traditional narrative. His ancestors didn’t go through American slavery. From his wiki:
Dabiri’s parents are Nigerian immigrants, who settled in Toledo, Ohio, in 1975. Dabiri’s father was a mechanical engineer who taught math at a community college. His mother, a computer scientist, raised three children and started a software development company.[6] It was watching his father, who would occasionally do engineering work on the side, that encouraged Dabiri’s love of engineering.
Dabiri is technically African American since he was born here, but he was born of two parents who were both immigrants to this country. That said, he still offers some great insights that I believe the NAACP should jump on. I think they should be calling him and inviting him to speak to the world. They should give the man a platform. From the same wiki, Dabiri has interest in this very subject. He is quoted from an NPR interview in which he says:
Having two parents there who encouraged me and in some cases forced me to study and to really take academics seriously, was very important at an early stage. And then going through school, the role of my teachers was always so important. I remember my fourth grade teacher … [she] made me believe that I was smart and so I took that and sort of owned that and tried to live up to the expectations that she had placed on me, even as a fourth grader. And so we really want to grab hold of the imagination of the first graders and the second graders at a very early stage, and get them excited about becoming scientists, as excited as they are about becoming a fire fighter or the next rap star.
I would think that this would be a great inspiration to lots of kids and parents. I think the NAACP clings to a certain kind of narrative, but this ought to be a part of the narrative too.
Hey, many Asian Americans can find inspiration from guys like Jeremy Lin and Tony Hsieh, guys who are just a generation removed from the motherland. If you look at Jews in 20th century literature, guys like Roth and Bellows, much of their literature focuses on their immigration story.
So why doesn’t the NAACP embrace its newest immigrants? I’ve met quite a few Nigerian immigrants both in Portland and on this blog, and I can say in no uncertain terms that the ones I’ve met are leaders in their fields. I know a really smart accountant, I know of at least one CFO, one business leader, and one electrical engineer who are all from Nigeria. Why not invite Nigerians into the field as an inspiration for what African Americans can accomplish? Why not praise Dabiri the same way Asian Americans praise Jeremy Lin or Michael Chang? And while we’re at it, why not take these Nigerian immigrants and put them in a room with other African American business leaders who have succeeded? I’m sure they’d have a lot to share and learn from each other.
By the way, I’m not saying that the NAACP should emulate the kinds of actions that Asian American organizations have. We’ve got Asian American orgs that give awards to Ken Jeong, David Henry Hwang, and Amy Tan. The NAACP best not be following our example–we may be the single worst example of “follow the money” on the planet. BUT logically speaking, there are lots of other paths that groups like the NAACP could take that would be better for both the general society AND African Americans.
It won’t work. We Africans, do the best we can to disassociate ourselves from the African Americans as they are considered “without history”, “without people” and thus “without culture”. In turn, African Americans feel they were sold off and betrayed and feel condescended to by the African immigrants.
If you notice, it is quite rare for African Americans and African immigrants to be friends and socialise. The latter does not consider the former equals and thus will not see the point of such an engagement as you suggest…
I mean, take the guy mentioned in the article. He came from a home with two parents who had obtained advanced degrees and were most likely not the first of their generation to do so. This was my reality growing up as well. My father has a Phd and my mother has a Masters degree. This is not something that is replicated in the average African American home and thus the emphasis on education and academic achievement that you would like to see would not exist for the average African American child. It was alarming to me when I arrived at Howard to find that the majority of my American classmates were the first of their lineage to go to college. For me, I knew I was going to university since I was a child because that was what everyone was doing. The question was not if one was going to college but “where” one was going to college. Until this becomes the same question for the average AA child, NAACP can only do what it is doing now…meet the needs of the current reality
I have to agree with Ms C. I’m Carribean and it’s the samething we don’t mix well with African Americans. I’ve never even had an acquaintence and much less a friend who is African American. On top of that I’m not even sure what it means to be African America. They just seem to be without a genuine culture but habits that arise from slavery.
It’s nohing new so you could imagine my reaction when the Asian v Asian American talk comes along–’welcome to the club.
By the way I dont think Dabiri is African American. His parents are from Nigeria that’s a pinpoint location with it’s own culture and ways of doing things not a summary of a continent. He’s Nigerian American.
Wish i could say more but we’re still without power and my phone is btwn 25-50% power.
Can’t spell. LOL
You know… people could try starting from somewhere…
what does this got to do with Asians? Nothing!!_______________________.
Let me begin by saying that everything Ms. Catwalq and Anna says rings true with the Africans and African Americans I know. The aforementioned accountant, CFO, and electrical engineer don’t associate with African Americans. Conversely, the African Americans I know don’t hang out with Africans from Africa.
That said–when I took African literature in college, most of the students were African American, as was the professor. So there’s at least some sort of acknowledged common bond.
Do I think Africans and African Americans can hang out with one another? Tying it in with my own experience as an Asian American, I’d say it’s unlikely. Asian Americans and Asian Asians are probably closer in culture than African Americans and African Africans, and even then, there isn’t that much interaction between the two Asian groups. That said–wouldn’t it be possible for African Americans to piggyback off the culture of Africans–Nigerians, in this case?
A great example is Jeremy Lin vs. Ichiro and Yao. Jeremy Lin’s impact with Asian Americans was very big last year, but before him was Ichiro and Yao. Even though Asian Americans shared very little culturally with Ichiro and Yao, we were proud that someone finally made it. They “proved” that we could do it.
If the NAACP just claimed guys like Dabiri by saying “he’s one of US and look what he’s achieved,” it would be a potent argument against HBD goofballs and the like. Not that the African American community doesn’t have superstars of its own–but highlighting the sheer number of brilliant Nigerians in this country is something that would be a powerful statement. Plus–if they brought guys like Dabiri to the people, they’d have a great mentor for young ones.
The only problem I see is that African immigrants might not want to be put into this role, which I think is what Ms. Catwalq was saying. Much as Oprah (who isn’t native African) wanted to put her investment in Africa over African America, perhaps Nigerians would want the same. BUT…the NAACP could still highlight Nigerian American achievement just as a way to diversify the narrative. In other words, even without the participation of Nigerians, they could use the narrative to bolster their own cause–the empowerment of African Americans. It would seem to me that this would be easy to do. Malcolm X once spoke about the importance of having a long history, and Nigerians bring a long history with them. Is there any reason to reject that history? Certainly, it could dilute the regular narrative, but why not give it a shot? Both stories could still be valid.
I don’t think the HBD mob would be by the achievements of Nigerian-Americans. Their argument would be that the immigrants who get to the US are disproportionately from the elite classes, who are therefore more likely to be smarter. The same thing is said about Indian-Americans, who are the most successful immigrant group to the US.
I think there is a degree of merit to that argument, even though I’m not a big believer in major racial differences in intelligence. The Nigerians who have settled in the US are going to be better-educated than the average Nigerian. It’s one of the reasons that we see a big difference in the level of achievement in refugee-immigrant communities (eg. Hmong, Vietnamese, Sudanese) and those who came as business migrants (Chinese, Indians, Japanese).
Anyway, Nigerians might be looked upon as just another model minority, and thus another stick with which to beat African-Americans, rather than benefit them.
The fact is that recent African immigrants have a very different experience than African-Americans whose families have been here for centuries. Recent immigrants do not have to deal with the lingering consequences of generations of racial discrimination in the way American-born Africans have to.
Byron makes the same mistake in another recent article when he tries to compare recent Asian immigrants (who are supposedly superior because they make bigger sacrifices for their children’s education) to African Americans who lived in America for generations. Recent immigrants often come from places where they are not victims of long-term institutional racism. The ability to immigrate is itself a sign of relatively high education, skill, and affluence. Byron draws overly simplistic and generalized comparisons between very different communities. It is unlikely that American-born black people will be inspired by an immigrant who does not talk like them and did not grow up in an environment similar to them.
Byron does some great work when talking about Asian-American issues. But when talking about black issues, he is as paternalistic, privileged, and condescending as any white Rudyard Kipling fan.
Could I pick your brain for a second RR?
How do different time frames of long term institutionalised racism effect people?
Say, for example, compared to one generation, to two, to three, to four or five and more?
This isn’t an idle question, it’s something I’ve wondered about and wanted a good perspective for some time now.
I’d say that the biggest effect is in how children are taught that the world is.
If you’ve only been exposed to institutional racism for a few generations, it is probable that within your collective racial memory and personal family memory there are still plenty of stories an remembrances of when things were different. That makes people feel more resilient, more hopeful that things may yet change, more believing in opportunity when it finally presents itself.
However, the person who is part of a collective memory where no one can recall when things were any better is much different. Those people very often have internalized the racism after long exposure to it’s poison. They may argue, and act out as if they’re unaffected, but if you watch their actions carefully, you’ll soon discover that they are people who have given up on themselves and who feel undeserving of real success.
From a long-time lurker, first-time commenter Nigerian-American (born in the U.S. of two Nigerian immigrants) – I just wanted to add my two cents on something that King said re: how children are taught that the world – by using a simple but concrete example.
As a child growing up in Nigeria, I never spent a single day wondering whether or not a black man could be president of the country because every past president/military leader since Nigeria’s independence has been a black man. I never wondered whether a black person could be the CEO of a huge corporation or be the vice-chancellor (president) of a major university because those positions have always been filled by black people. Thus, I never doubted whether black people were good enough to be president, CEO or university presidents. This also is the reason why the idea of voting for the first African-American president of the U.S., while it was a big deal intellectually, was not as big of a deal for me emotionally since I have no knowledge of what it must have felt like to grow up in a country where people who looked like me were almost non-existent in many leadership roles.
I suspect that the election of Barack Obama as the country’s first African American president would have meant a lot more to me if I grew up in the U.S. I was able to appreciate (intellectually) what my friends and their families (who are African American, by the way) kept saying about not being sure that they would live to see the day where a black man would be president). But I was unable to connect fully with the emotional aspect of the celebrations after the election results were announced and on inauguration day in January 2009 because unlike me, my friends grew up here; their parents, grandparents and great-grand parents grew up in this country facing all of the oppression that African Americans have faced in this country. Their parents, grandparents and great-grand parents faced the great challenge of raising their offspring to have pride in themselves and their culture (yes, African Americans have culture!!!) belief in their abilities and thier capacity to be anything they wanted (with very little by way of real-life examples to support the ideals being taught).
A question for Ms Catwalq and Annasuki:
You’ve both mentioned that Nigerian-Americans don’t really socialise with African-Americans. I assume other African immigrant groups have a somewhat similar attitude. So who are Nigerian-Americans hanging out with? I’m just curious. Whites? Other Africans? I think I probably assumed that y’all would avoid lower-class blacks but get on well with the more educated segments of the black community.
@Raguel: I don’t believe that the effects of institutionalized racism degrade simply through the passage of time. If my great-grandparents were forced into poverty and denied business and educational opportunities, then my grandparents will likely grow up poor and uneducated. If my grandparents grew up poor and uneducated, then my parents probably will too. If my parents grow up poor and uneducated, then I probably will too. The effects of institutionalized racism will not diminish significantly without an active effort to correct them.
And keep in mind that most African-Americans alive today are only 1-2 generations away from legalized discrimination in business, hiring, education, and housing.
Eurasian,
Good points, and yes, there is a filter in place–one of the biggest surprises I had when living in Asia was the…um..diversity of intelligences of people. Typically, new immigrants these days, especially those in colleges, tend to be very smart because of that filter.
At the same time, if people started associating Nigerian achievement with that of African Americans, wouldn’t that be a good thing? Kinda like if someone started repeating the idea that all Asian American dudes were ballers in the NBA, that might not be a bad thing. It’s all about diversity of stereotypes, then maybe someday there are so many types that minorities would just be regarded as human.
RR:
Thanks for your kind words about my Asian American issues work. I’m not African American, so I won’t pretend to be in the know!
So what do you think about that other blog that I linked above:
http://betf.blogspot.com/2010/12/good-news-tuesday-john-dabiri-2010.html
I guess here’s what I’m trying to understand: Barack Obama’s family totally skipped American slavery–his father was from Kenya. But the NAACP is inspired by him. I myself–neither African nor African American–am inspired by Dabiri. I can understand that some people might not be inspired by him, but is the divide really that big? If they can find Obama inspirational as a leader, why not Dabiri as a scientist?
Nwa’ndo:
Thanks for lurking and commenting!
Your comment reminds me a lot of Malcolm X’s surprise when he took his first trip to Africa: he was was surprised to see black people running their own society, doing every job imaginable–running airports, banks, and being heads of state! I think that is the crucial difference! When I was in Japan, it was really shocking to me to see Asians on TV!
And yes, African Americans do have culture. Langston Hughes, Malcolm X, Louis Armstrong, Muhammed Ali, all the way up to Lauryn Hill…there’s a vibrant culture here.
@Eurasians:
Nigerian-Americans and Nigerians-in-America typically relate with each other and other Africans. Then, if you ended up in a very white community, you associate with white. This is also because they tend to identify where the better resources are and work to access them. And Nigerians-in-America/Africans-in-America are not necessarily “sympathetic” (i use this word carefully) to the complaints of African Americans. As far as most of us are concerned, this country has more functional systems than ours does, so-what-are-you-complaining-about?
You-don’t-have-good-schools? Well-dang-my-classroom-was-under-a-tree…. kind of response and so you can imagine how well our conversations go at times.
@RR:
The ability to immigrate is itself a sign of relatively high education, skill, and affluence
My response: not always the case.
@Nwando: Nna/Nne I know what you mean. I felt the exact same way. I was more mesmerised that people voted and no one burnt the cities to the ground or that McCain did not launch a campaign for a recount and to keep Obama out.
@Big
If they can find Obama inspirational as a leader, why not Dabiri as a scientist?
Obama considers himself American. How does Dabiri describe himself? A Nigerian-American is usually raised to identify as Nigerian-American and not as just “American”. Thus an African-American who considers himself or herself “American above all other things is not going to be speaking to the same sentiments.
We always say to ourselves, “If you cannot go forward, you can always return from whence you came”. Where is the African-American returning to?
I am not saying it’s the right way to think, I am just trying to explain why Dabiri is not your NAACP poster boy.
@bigWOWO Let’s keep in mind that while Obama was the son of an immigrant, he grew up in America and likely suffered prejudices as a youth because he is a black person and the child of a mixed-race couple. He was born in 1961 and grew up during the Civil Rights Movement.
As for why the NAACP hasn’t endorsed John Dabiri, there is one very simple answer: The NAACP simply hasn’t heard of him. It is not the NAACP’s mission or responsibility to find and promote every successful black person in the country.
But let’s imagine they did give Dabiri some publicity. Why should that change their position on affirmative action or other educational policies? It is perfectly possible to admire those who triumphed over an unfair system while still believing that the unfair system needs change.
@ Ms Catwalq:
is this the sort of attitude you are talking about?
http://youtu.be/VNbVPNzd5r8
Ms Catwalq,
From what you said, I can’t believe that Africans in America are so similar to we Asians/Chinese in America in so many ways. We don’t take anything for granted, we may complaint sometimes, but we won’t let those things get us, we work hard. Life is not fair, few people in this world have everything, you just have to deal with it.
I think the biggest problem for African American is their victimized mentality and nothing in their community or culture can counter that. The biggest enemy of them is themselves.
Same for the Asian American community. Our biggest enemy isn’t racism, but ourselves, rooted in our culture and history. When I see AAs in this board and other places complaint about racism, Hollywood, unfair treatments etc, my reaction was often like “What? What’s wrong with that? This is just the life, you can’t expect other people to be the saint.”
RR,
Talking about discrimination, in China, we have way more and worse discrimination against all sort of people, especially rural countryside people. The worst is our registered residence system. It is very difficult for people to go to other places to live, work, or get education other than their birth place or their parents registered residence . So the peasants from rural countryside can’t move to city freely, especially 30 years ago. Now they can find labor work in the city, but because their registered residences are still in their home village, their children can’t go to school in cities where they work (Chinese government only started to change the policies in recent years and problem has no completely solved).
You know what? Those people from countryside don’t take the discrimination as excuses for not working hard. To the contrary, they work harder, just like many immigrants in this country. They take every opportunity to succeed. When I was in college, those students from rural countryside and small cities were among the hardest working people. They knew they don’t get much chance in life, and they have to take every opportunity and make out of it as much as possible.
Big,
In China, the diversity of intelligence is also diverse among regions, cultures and ethnics.
We have 56 ethnic minorities. Han is probably the most capable ethnic. In college entrance exam, all ethnic minorities get some some sort of extra points.
Even among the Han, people from certain provinces (traditionally more “advanced” in culture and more developed) are considered “smarter” or hard worker, while people from other places( usually northern China) are considered “lazy”.
When the first time I visited Shanghai in early 80′s, I was very surprised to find that the culture in Shanghai was so different from Beijing where I grew up. Ordinary people’s work ethic were much better. It is no surprise that Shanghai and adjacent areas have been and will continue to be the power house of China’s economic growth.
@Chinesemom,
Interesting read about Chinese culture. But you really have bought the White spin hook, line and sinker. Without your handle, I would have thought you were White. Maybe you are a honorary White.
@chinesemom Chinese ethnic minorities might not be the best argument for your point when you consider all the aid that the Chinese government gives to ethnic minorities and poor regions, including educational aid. Even you yourself say ” In college entrance exam, all ethnic minorities get some some sort of extra points.” Ultimately, the example of China only reinforces my own point: There won’t be any significant end to a marginalized group’s problems until a powerful entity (like the government or a university) makes an active effort to oppose the cycle of poverty.
You say that the hardest working Chinese students you met were from poor, rural areas rather than wealthy urban areas. This just highlights another inequality that affirmative action will help correct. Members of marginalized groups must work harder for the same prize that members of privileged groups can get more easily due to their superior wealth and resources. Minorities are expected to be excellent but whites are allowed to be mediocre.
I think Dwight McBride said it best: “…one of the ways in which we will know when black people in the United States are truly liberated and equal to their fellow white citizens will be when there are as many mediocre blacks in academia as there are currently mediocre whites.”
http://koritha.blogspot.com/2011/07/american-way-mediocrity-when-white.html
Ms. Catwalq:
Yes, that is exactly how my Nigerian friend thinks too. He’s like, “You want to see hardship? Do you know where I come from?”
As for Dabiri–I run into this issue all the time with Asian Asians vs. Asian Americans. I’m pretty sure there’s not much African Americans can do for Nigerians, the same way there isn’t much a Chinese American can do in the short term for Chinese Chinese. They’re just two different cultures. BUT…Chinese-Chinese LOVE Michael Chang and Jeremy Lin, and we Chinese Americans LOVED Yao Ming!
Was Michael Jordan a big star in Nigeria? Is Barack Obama a star in Nigeria (even if his origins are from Kenya)? That’s kind of what I’m saying. There may be no cultural similarities, but at least people can say, “Hey, someone who looks like me succeeded!” By promoting Dabiri, the NAACP could help itself!
(Err…or maybe not. If African Americans achieved equality, they might no longer be relevant. But that would be a good thing!)
RR:
As Ms. Catwalq says, it’s not always the case that immigrants have high education, skill, and affluence. I have a few Vietnamese friends, for example, who came here as refugees. Literally on a boat! But probably due to Confucian values, they’ve managed to succeed financially.
Well, aside from being mixed race and being of a later generation, isn’t Dabiri in the same boat as Obama? Dabiri was born here and probably face racism too.
I’m not saying that the NAACP could help Dabiri; I’m saying HE could help THEM! They could use HIM to promote THEIR cause. I hadn’t heard of him either, but after hearing about him, why not use him?
As for the unfair system, I think we need to revisit that. Even at the highest levels of debate, i.e. the Supreme Court, pro-AA proponents have basically dropped the argument that the system is unfair:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/sunday-review/rethinking-affirmative-action.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
ChineseMom:
I’ve heard Shanghai people are fierce. Don’t know if it’s true, but I’ve heard that that is definitely the reputation.
@BigWOWO “I have a few Vietnamese friends, for example, who came here as refugees. Literally on a boat! But probably due to Confucian values, they’ve managed to succeed financially.”
Confucian values? Maybe. But Vietnamese immigrants also got a big helping hand from the government mainly because foreign refugees were useful propaganda mouthpieces against America’s favorite boogeymen, the communists. They were given new homes as well as government assistance aka “welfare.” Also, many of them already had a significant level of skill and education.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Americans#History
“During the spring of 1975, 125,000 of them left South Vietnam. Generally highly-skilled and educated, they were airlifted by the U.S. government to bases in the Philippines and Guam, and were subsequently transferred to refugee centers in the United States.”
“President Gerald Ford and other officials strongly supported Vietnamese immigration and passed the Indochina Migration and Refugee Assistance Act in 1975, which allowed Vietnamese refugees to enter the United States under a special status. To prevent the refugees from forming ethnic enclaves and to minimize their impact on local communities, they were scattered all over the country. Within a few years, however, many had resettled in California and Texas.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indochina_Migration_and_Refugee_Assistance_Act#Implications
“In response to the new need of welfare assistance to the new relocated refugees, the Indochinese Refugee Assistance Program was developed. This gave clearance for any Vietnamese, Cambodian, or Lao refugees to tap into the same resources that Cuban refugees had attained in the early 1970s, which included financial assistance and health, employment, and education services.”
The Vietnamese immigrants were given housing while for generations, blacks were discriminated against in the housing market. It’s just not an apt comparison. Comparing one minority group to another is always difficult and often involves glossing over the complexities of their respective histories.
“I’m not saying that the NAACP could help Dabiri; I’m saying HE could help THEM! They could use HIM to promote THEIR cause.”
Maybe. So what? I still don’t see why you are criticizing the NAACP for not knowing who this guy is. I also still don’t understand why you think the NAACP can’t admire triumph over an unfair system and while still seeking to reform the unfair system.
“Even at the highest levels of debate, i.e. the Supreme Court, pro-AA proponents have basically dropped the argument that the system is unfair”
Most critics of AA tend to mischaracterize it. The University of Texas requires that 75% of new admissions be in the top 10% of their high schools (Abigail Fisher would not qualify). The remaining 25% are admitted on the basis of numerous factors including socioeconomic status, personal situations, and race. With such a system, it would be very difficult for an affluent black student with poor grades to get in SOLELY because of his race. The lawyers in this particular case aren’t arguing that the UT system is unfair because they don’t think it is. UT’s admission system is not the stereotypical strawman that AA opponents like to knock down.
Considering that the percentages of blacks and Latinos in UT are still WAY below the state percentages, it is hard to argue that anti-white racism kept Miss Fisher from being admitted to the school, especially when you consider that her grades were below her school’s top 10% and her standardized test scores were below UT’s average. And she lacked the excuses of poverty, a difficult family situation, or racial discrimination.
http://www.voxxi.com/abigail-fisher-making-federal-case/
Even affluent black people face prejudices that equally affluent white people do not have to deal with. For example, black students are generally punished more harshly in school regardless of socioeconomic status. And these punishments aren’t things like fighting or drug dealing. They’re for the kinds of rule-breaking you should expect from any school, such as “insubordination.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/in-washington-area-african-american-students-suspended-and-expelled-two-to-five-times-as-often-as-whites/2011/12/23/gIQA8WNQNP_story.html
“She pointed to one unsettling statistic: 71 percent of suspensions for insubordination, a relatively rare offense in the county, were handed out to black students. African Americans make up 21 percent of students in Montgomery’s schools.”
Also, having a “black” sounding name on a resume can affect the number of callbacks you get.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-575685.html
“After responding to 1,300 classified ads with dummy resumes, the authors found black-sounding names were 50 percent less likely to get a callback than white-sounding names with comparable resumes.”
@RR,
“Considering that the percentages of blacks and Latinos in UT are still WAY below the state percentages, ”
I never understood this line of argument. It makes no sense to include 2nd graders, and university professors with PhD in the statistics because they are not applying to college. The correct numbers to look at is what is the acceptance rate of applicants based on race. For example, if Asians make up 60% of applicants then all things being equal 60% of the incoming class should also be Asian. If it is not, then it makes sense to talk about anti-Asian bias. Same with Blacks. If they make up 60% of the applicant, then all things being equal they should make 60% of the class.
You can’t include in your statistics people who are not even applying for college. For example, including me in the general statistics for Asians is stupid because I already have a terminal degree. There is no higher college degree for me in my field. I am not applying for college.
John Doe,
You can call me a racist, I really don’t care. Just don’t assume that I bought everything from white.
RR,
Chinese government are not that smart. It hasn’t always given aid to poor regions or poor people. To the contrary, it often gives prefer treatment to the richer region. For example, Beijing, Shanghai and some other more developed regions gets more quota in college admission. So the entrance exam cutoff lines to colleges are lower for Beijing and Shanghai, even people from these cities relatively richer and have more resources. Ethnic minorities get prefer treatment in college admission also not because they are poorer or have been discriminated historically.
In the college admission, Han people from poor region or poor family don’t get any help or aid at all. My point is that poor people in China don’t take their disadvantage in their life as an excuse for not working hard. Instead of angering on how unfair life is, they jump on every opportunity to make something out of it. It is the culture that made people resilience.
From this kind of culture back ground, I often don’t feel sympathize with Blacks and many Asian Americans who want everything to be the same as White without reflecting on themselves or make any effort to make themselves better. For example, AMs complaint so much about the stereotypes against them. But I don’t see any collect effort by AMs trying to do something to change themselves except PUAs. They don’t associate themselves with Asian immigrants community, they don’t tell Asian immigrants the problems and challenges they have. So the new Asian immigrants continue to follow the previous generation of Asian immigrants’ tiger parenting style and produce more stereotypical tiger cubs. Things could be so easily improved if new comers can learn from the mistakes that previous generation made and make adjustment in their child rearing. But nobody does anything about it. There are not many Asians, especially AMs involved in entertaining business. How could we complaint about Hollywood? If you want hollywood to change, then get more people to be the script writers, movies producers and actors. But tiger parenting won’t cultivate that kind of tiger cubs.
The racial prejudices will always be there as long as more people in a racial group have certain characteristics. Learn to deal with it or change yourself. Don’t let the unfairness of life to get to your psych.
Chinesemom,
“ Just don’t assume ..”
I don’t assume anything. I go by what you write. For all I know you could be a White guy. Thats the anonymity internet.
@chinesemom
Now that I think about it, you do sound like an anglophone White person. I recall you claiming Whites would be a minority due to Hispanic immigration. When I pointed out to you with US census data that majority Hispanics are in fact Whites, then you started claiming that doesn’t count. Why it doesn’t count? You have your own private definition of White people that aligns with nativist Whites? Too much kool-aid I tell you.
big,
Shanghai people have the reputation probably more or less like the Jews in the West. They are known to be clever, calculating, care about small things that people in other part of China don’t care. They sometime could be ruthless and cold heart. But I haven’t met many people from Shanghai really lived up to the bad part of that reputation.
What really impressed my during my trip to Shanghai in 80′s was that people who worked in retail stores could follow the rules and regulations. They make effort to try to sell their products, even most stores were owned by government at the time. People worked in service sectors in Beijing weren’t like that, they often acted like customers owed them something.
@ John Doe
I think that it if you read through most of Chinese Mom’s posts in regard to Black people, you will find that she is pretty supportive, and liberal in her policies. Everyone from time to time may say a thing here and there that you disagree with, but I think you’re barking up the wrong tree in trying to paint her as particularly whitewashed.
John,
If I sound like an anglophone White person, so be it. I’m not shamed of it. I don’t care what you think.
It doesn’t matter how many Hispanics claimed to be White in census data. When people or media talking about White, most of the time they refer to non-Hispanics White. In my post you referred to, I did not redefine white, I just repeated what I read from the news. And Hispanics kid don’t do that well in school in general, White or non-White. So if you can read and comprehend, you should know that half the Hispanics claimed to be White in census data won’t affect anything to my points in that post.
RR, King,
Thank you for your responses. The reason I asked was because, I think that what happened to black americans, in many ways, shapes or similarities, is about to happen to a lot of people, on a broader scale, across the world. Things are going to happen.
Whatever prejudices people may have had for black americans, they are going to disappear, when they realise that the color of skin and all the other minor physical differences count for nought in the face of forces more…. over-reaching. Whatever pride, whatever privilege…. well, I suppose that will depend on which side they find themselves.
Things are going to happen but it does not mean we have to rely on chance. Perhaps we have already developed ways of tracking trends of thought and attitudes within populations, and perhaps we have also developed ways of running intervention, perhaps environmentally or sociologically, to have the most impact in the right windows. Not to control, but to rebuild.
Because I think rebuilding is going to be something in high demand everywhere, and this won’t be the physical type of construction LOL
There will be no profit in this either. Well there actually is but I guess it’s a small minority who can really appreciate the type of good it offers.
I’m writing nonsense, aren’t I?
FUCK
Also John,
“But you really have bought the White spin hook, line and sinker. Without your handle, I would have thought you were White. Maybe you are a honorary White”.
In these sentences, did your “White” include Hispanic “White”?
“And Hispanics kid don’t do that well in school in general, White or non-White. ”
I thought we were talking about demographics, and the privileges that come from color.
As for your new addendum, poor anglophone White kids also do poorly. To do well in school, you need an environment that encourages academic achievement. If non-White and White Hispanics come from similar economic and cultural background, then their kids should perform similarly in school unless by magic Whites are somehow better. So, I am not sure what you are trying to prove.
@King,
I am not even going to comment on chinesemom’s simplistic views on black culture. But look here “ … Our biggest enemy isn’t racism, but ourselves, rooted in our culture and history…”
What is that supposed to even mean?
Sure I don’t face racism like the kind my parents generation (not an exaggeration, there are still people from my parents’ generation alive to tell) when a White person could kill a native in cold blood with no consequence, and on the other hand if a native fails to get off their bicycle while a White drives by in his fancy European car, there will be hell to pay for that poor native.
I encounter the more subtle kind of racism. Okay, overt racism I have usually faced from blacks in the US but they are usually in no position to effect my career, and such. Here is an example, recently, we were trying to hire someone at work … Guess what, candidate “C” would better fit in with our culture gets thrown into the discussion … I give a second look and it takes me a moment to realize what was being said. I have heard even more blatant ones from some friends in a Engineering college. I have tons of smart friends in the Tech sector. Even after years of being in their field, and being good, and wishing to be in leadership role, they are not leaders in their field. I also know of a few successful startup businesses by Asians where they have deliberately chosen Whites as CEO to be able to raise funds successfully. You can rent an incompetent White to be a CEO. Thats considered better than a competent non-White in the US.
No racism really? I don’t work the fields like my grandfather. And no I don’t have a White master beating me. But to say Asians, especially Asian men don’t face racism is looney.
If it is shown that Asian men get paid the same amount as Whites for similar job (accounting for similar education and GPA), then I will believe Asian men do not face discrimination.
Asking for fair treatment is not playing the victim or whining. Isn’t that what we teach children? Work hard and don’t take shit from others.
^Continuing @ John Doe:
BTW, just to state right out front: I have liked most of what you have said on this blog too, John Doe.
As for the offense that you are finding in what chinesemom has stated. I think that the heart of what you object to is this:
Now, as a black person myself, I’d caution that there is still a lot more residual racism floating under the surface that still effects minorities trying to achieve. But the real hidden chunk of the iceberg is the residual EFFECTS of the racism of the past (some of which still persists today)
However, there are many questions that can be answered in two ways. I grew up knowing two brothers (both Black American) who grew up in the same single-parent home. One of them seemed to hit a stage in his life in his teens where he became very social and wanted complete and unfettered freedom, and pretty much took it. The other brother despised the poverty and uncertainty of living like they did, and put all his energy into school. Long story short—today the free spirit brother is dead, and the student brother is an Executive Vice President of a financial and real estate holdings company.
So if somebody tried to blame the wild life and early death of free spirit brother on his race, I would immediately bring up the many extenuating circumstances of his upbringing and environment (including at times, prejudice and unfair treatment). But how about student brother? He grew up with the same problems didn’t he? My answer is yes, and he was able to overcome those obstacles and use them as inspiration to climb above their influence. So the question is , why couldn’t free spirit brother have done the same thing? And the answer is, yes he could have… but he simply allowed the his difficult environment and obstacles to bring him down, rather than as inspiration to overcome them.
Now does that mean free spirit brother was a bad person? Does it mean that therefore it was all his own fault? Does it mean that the system was fair after all, because hey, if one person can succeed, then in must be fair? Answer: No.
BOTH realities can be true. It is true that things can be terrible unfair at times. It is equally true that given that fact, you are still going to be your own worst enemy if you decide to let that bring you down instead of inspire you to do even better.
@ Raguel
I think that in some ways you’re right.
I think that as it becomes clear that Whites are a *minority* in world population, as countries like India and China, and continents like South America and Africa continue to develop, Europeans will rapidly veer away from skin color as the primary social differentiator. I think the new world will rely more on class and wealth divisions.
But John Doe, I also totally agree with you that ESPECIALLY up the food chain in the tech and financial sectors, prejudice still does come into play particularly when it comes to promotions into leadership positions. The glass ceiling there still has precious few holes in it.
John,
How old are you? I guess you are probably still too young to realize that often what stopped you from becoming what you want to be isn’t the outside factors but yourself and your own weaknesses.
@King,
I agree with you completely. And more to that. Fighting the demons in oneself isn’t an easy task, probably more difficult than fighting the outside obstacles, and you usually won’t get any glory from fighting yourself.
@chinesemom,
“still too young to realize…”
“what stopped you …”
Do you assume much? Perhaps its best if you follow your own advice and don’t presume.
I am neither young, nor stopped from doing what I embarked on when I was young. Yup, I was young once. I get paid to imagine what life is like in 3.976 space-time dimensions. Can’t get a more comfy job. There are concepts/ideas named after my name and presumably they will outlive me given I am not that young anymore. Sorry, you have to try harder in mind reading.
@King,
Look, nobody denies that at the end everyone has to take personal responsibility that includes Blacks, Whites, Purples and Pinks. However, the whole pull yourself up by the bootstraps is problematic. Everything is interconnected.
I also find it problematic when I hear immigrants claim “I landed here with 10 dollars” in my pocket and look how successful I am. You can land me also in any English speaking country with 10 dollars, and still I will be able to climb up. Not because I have magic powers but because I have advanced degrees. I really have problem with this model minority crap.
Being Asian, I am presumed to be smart. That can be a positive thing sometimes but only a generation ago we were considered too stupid. Despite Confucian culture, how come sons of Vietnamese plumbers mostly end up being plumbers in the South? Not much social mobility there. There was a study done, and I might have provided link.
I also ask whats so great about sons and daughters of Asian doctors and engineers becoming doctors, engineers and lawyers? Is it really that hard to become any of these if you are not dumb as a door knob, and have access to reasonable high school education, and such?
The well off in the society (and I don’t mean just the US) is often too lazy/greedy to fix things, and do half hearted stuff like race quota in college admission. Well, college is too late to fix things. We had a long discussion on public school before. Perhaps its elementary school where things should be fixed.
John,
“I also find it problematic when I hear immigrants claim “I landed here with 10 dollars” in my pocket and look how successful I am. You can land me also in any English speaking country with 10 dollars, and still I will be able to climb up. Not because I have magic powers but because I have advanced degrees. I really have problem with this model minority crap.”
You are deadly wrong about immigrants. You over estimate the usefulness of those degrees and overlooked many obstacles immigrants have to overcome. Language is the first and biggest obstacle for almost all immigrants, no green card is the second. Asian immigrants who are successful not because of the degrees. There are plenty of Chinese immigrants with an advance STEM degree couldn’t make it. There are also plenty of Chinese immigrants without any degree, no money and don’t even speak any English when they land here, achieved what they wanted to achieve.
What successful immigrants have in common is that they don’t have the attitude toward life like yours. They don’t think America or life owes them anything, they work hard, they won’t let any obstacles, discrimination, unfair treatments, etc., get to their psych. They take the low pay job, work the long hours, and not complain anything. “God helps those who help themselves”.
“I also ask whats so great about sons and daughters of Asian doctors and engineers becoming doctors, engineers and lawyers?”
I don’t expect my children will move much higher in social ladder than where we are now. But I think they definitely will have better quality of life and have more freedom to do what they want to do. That’s enough for me.
@chinsesmom,
“ You over estimate the usefulness of those degrees …” and
“Language is the first and biggest obstacle for almost all immigrants, no green card is the second.”
Contradiction. Case in point, with an advanced degree you can apply for EB1 or NIW EB2 green card, and immigration status wouldn’t be a problem. You can get your green card within a year. If I want to immigrate to Canada, I get enough points because of those cheap pieces of paper that says I have some degree. Now, if you don’t have an education, then you have to work much harder than those with education in general. Its not even a case for debate.
And that is why most Asian parents push their kids for education. Because in average (doesn’t mean always, just average) education gives you a leg up.
Again, if you are educated then language is less of a barrier even a foreign one.
Yes, poor uneducated immigrants also can succeed but they have to work much harder. I don’t think I will trade places with them.
You know, I don’t even know what you are debating about anymore. That education is over rated? You should give some thought before you post.
Again, working hard is not the issue. But equal pay for equal work is. Speaking up for fairness is not playing the victim.
On the other hand, you can take the smiling Budha attitude, keep quite like a model minority and live with the unfairness, and work twice as hard as Whites to earn the same success. By success I do not mean just money.
My attitude is work hard, and demand that your hard work is rewarded. And it has served me fine. Like the EB1 green card for example. I didn’t need employer to sponsor me. You could say I pulled myself up by myself. But that would be lying. I had a solid education, subsidized by public funds that allowed me to apply for EB1.
Every time, you take shit from others it will kill a little bit of you inside. I say better to let it out then keep it in. In fact there was a study on this: How the little slights that Asians (? or was it all POC) face in ordinary life, has an cumulative effect on their psychological well being. It is better to express your anger then bottle it up.
I think at this point it would be better for you to stop coming up with strawman arguments. There is no need to paint a picture of who I might be and then trying to argue against it.
Fine, I get it. You want to take the shit you get as part of life, and feel powerless to change it, and just accept it. Sure one can say if you can’t fight r4pe, just enjoy it. Sure life can be unfair but some of us don’t feel like its our lot in life to suffer. Some of us do feel we need to complain, and be heard so that there can be change.
Is there anything else you would like to add to your life advice to correct my misguided attitude?
“God helps those who help themselves”
God who? Whats the lastname? Sorry, I don’t know anyone by that name.
John,
I guess you really don’t know what EB-1 Visa is.
Most Chinese and Indian immigrants don’t qualify for this type of visa when they landed in this country, including those who got their Ph.d degree from China or india. Most of us came to this country only with a BS degree. It doesn’t worth anything. Only those with a Ph.d degree and certain amount of publications in reputable journals, plus employers sponsorship can apply for this visa. You know what employers sponsorship means? It usually means cheap labor.
FYI, here is the information about EB-1 Visa.
“EB-1 Visa
A First Preference Immigration Petition (EB-1) is an employment-based petition for permanent residence reserved for those who are among the most able and accomplished in their respective fields within the arts, sciences, education, business, or sports. There are three (3) types of EB-1 petitions:
Alien of Extraordinary Ability EB-1A
Outstanding Researcher/Outstanding Professor EB-1B
Managers and Executive Transferees EB-1C”
John,
I agree with most of everything ChineseMom has said on this site (with the exception of affirmative action! haha!), and like King, I think I like just about everything you’ve said too! But I think sometimes we disagree on stuff. ChineseMom is definitely NOT whitewashed. Check out her awesome podcast here:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/05/podcast-with-chinesemom-on-american-culture-education-and-raising-kids/
By the way, John, it’s awesome that you’ve got stuff named after you!
You might be overestimating the abilities of the rest of us. My dad isn’t a doctor, but even if he were, I’d still get squeamish. Law is too stressful, and engineers work really long hours.
RR:
Vietnamese refugees were “given” new homes? I don’t know if they were actually given house keys–I think they still needed to qualify for mortgages on their own. No, seriously, it wasn’t that generous. Check out this article. I think it’s pretty typical:
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/25/local/la-me-viet-documentary25-2009dec25
A good friend of mine came as a refugee. His family was sponsored by a church, and yes, I’m sure there was a good deal of government assistance in the early years. If you think about it, there had to be that–they literally had nothing! But they eventually got off it; the welfare was temporary.
I’m not sure about the education thing (and that’s something that John Doe and ChineseMom are debating too). Another Vietnamese friend’s dad started working a menial job while learning English. He took some classes at the community college part-time, and he worked his way out of manual labor. Again, I’m not saying it’s easy–I myself would probably trip over my two feet trying to do this–but they did it.
As for Dabiri, I’m not criticizing them for not knowing of Dabiri specifically, but I do wonder if they’re emphasis is in the right place. They should be praising more STEM scientists and focusing on families, not trying to create unequal criteria for college admissions.
Here’s where we might fundamentally disagree. Sure, percentages of blacks and Latinos may be lower. That’s the OUTCOME. But what about the path? How many hours of average do Asian or white high school students study? How supportive of their kids’ education were black and Latino parents? Did these parents read to their kids every night, go over their homework every night? I think we can look at the outcome, but we also have to look at ALL influences that affect the outcome. If we can change the influences, we might be able to change the outcome in a fair manner.
I agree with King. And King, great explanation above. Thank you.
“Again, if you are educated then language is less of a barrier even a foreign one.”
Do you read, write and speak any foreign language? Have you ever worked or lived in a non English speaking country? I doubt that you have ever visited any Asian countries. It is so easy for you to say!!!
Millions of Chinese college graduates can’t read a simple English novel even they started to study English since first grade, unless they put a lot of time into it. Chinese is fundamentally different from Western languages. It is much harder for us to learn English than European people do. That’s why even educated Asians don’t usually speak English as well as ordinary Europeans do. Even after living in this country for years, many of us still may mix up SHE/HE, and make mistakes in grammatical tense, because in our native language, we don’t differentiate them. It took me nearly 3 years living in this country to be able to understand TV without making any effort and even longer to be able to completely understand conversations between native speakers and join them.
I’ve gone through most of my phone’s batter power just keeping up with this thread. I had couple of thoughts regarding the original post and comments but since the issue has arisen between Chinesemom and John Doe I’ve been thrown off course. At times I not sure of what you two are arguing and then, like now, I feel like I’m reading a modern, immigrant/minority subject base argument that Washington and DuBois would of had.
Do you work hard and accept/wait out the second-rate-glass-ceiling-bs or demand the respect and equality up front since you’re putting in the work already? Do you think these two perspectives vary based on immigration status, first generation, second generation, reason for emigrating or location of origin.?
Excuse me while I climb and jump a mountain of over-due-postponed-scheduling-mishaps-mess-ups-and-necessary-reschedulings forged by procrastination and that bitch Sandy. Damn, I could be pouring myself over physic applications instead of theories of human this that.
Big,
We may not be that much different on affirmative action.
I’m not against elite college like Harvard to admit Blacks and Hispanics for the purpose of diversification (we are definitely different here). But I don’t think it’s a good idea for NYC’s elite high school to use the same method to admit students (we are on the same side in this case). How can the Black and Hispanic students compete with Asians if they are not prepared? Not to mention what kind of message they send to young adolescents.
@Chinesemom,
First off all if you are going to debate, then you need to stay in context. Second, since you don’t know me its best to not presume what my life experiences have been. Unfortunately, thats the nature of the internet.
I do know about EB1 visas, and EB2 and EB3. For me the best fit for what I needed was EB1-EA (extraordinary ability), and I also looked into EB2-NIW (national interest waiver). I ended up going the EB1-EA route since that seemed the shortest.
Now, the reason I brought it up is not to say everyone qualifies for EB1-EA. This is again your new addendum going off track in random direction. If everyone qualified, then it wouldn’t be EB1-EA is it? The reason I brought it up was to counter your assertion that higher education and degree is over-rated. You said and I quote “You over estimate the usefulness of those degrees …” No, it is exactly those degrees that I got through public education that qualified me for EB1-EA. Yes, I worked hard but it paid off only because the opportunities were available.
Working hard like a donkey is not going to work if doors are closed on your face. End of debate.
Second, I learned to speak English as an adult. I speak English as my fourth language. I do speak three other Asian languages from different language families. I have rudimentary child-like abilities in some others that I can decipher only in context (can’t understand or carry a conversation). I have mentioned before that you could walk into the market where I grew up and hear people speak tens of different Tibetan, Burmese, Tai, Mon-Khmer, Austric, Indo-Iranian languages. And so far I have lived in 3 different foreign countries (not all English speaking, yeah I had a complicated path but not too bad). In fact I got an education in school in a language that was foreign to me, not in my native mother tongue. To this day I can’t figure out properly the genders in that foreign language because its different than my native tongue.
So, just because I demand equal pay for equal work does not make me privileged, or playing the victim or whatever else you are going to imagine next for me.
As far as I can tell you have advised us to keep quite and put our nose on the grind stone. Sorry, sister, not for me. I work and I expect to be rewarded like everyone else. Model minority be damned.
@bigwowo,
“Law is too stressful, and engineers work really long hours.”
You will be amazed how much the human body and mind can endure. I thought high-school was tough, until got to college where everything in high-school is covered in one month, and so on, right? … but I think you really need the right environment to succeed. Take Obama. We can keep on debating why NCAAP has accepted him and not Dabiri, but to see someone like Obama as the President is inspiring to all POC. Earlier when a little black girl says on TV — I want to grow up to be the President — it to me almost sounded like a cruel joke. Not now.
Role models and opportunities for kids, everything else the victor can claim.
“Have you ever worked or lived in a non English speaking country? I doubt that you have ever visited any Asian countries.”
Does Japan count? Just checking.
John,
If you have lived in or visited Japan, had you noticed how well educated Japaneses could speak English? Don’t you think English would be a big barrier if they decided to immigrate to the US? I’m asking this question because you said: “Again, if you are educated then language is less of a barrier even a foreign one.”
I’m not interested in debating anything with you. I’m only pointing to the holes in your following statement:
“You can land me also in any English speaking country with 10 dollars, and still I will be able to climb up. Not because I have magic powers but because I have advanced degrees. I really have problem with this model minority crap.”
That statement only may hold true for you, can’t apply to Asian immigrants.
Chinesemom,
The world must be a very confusing and terrifying place for you if you keep taking things out of context.
My statement about “dropping off” in any English speaking country is not to put forward the idea that I have magical power but to point out that when you are educated and speak the dominant language certain privileges are available to you that might not be open to others less fortunate no matter how hard they work like a donkey. It is to counter your point that just hard work is enough to overcome some unfair barriers. It is not.
When I first started learning English, I had a Japanese friend who’s English was bad but still much better than mine. That friend has gone back to Japan, and so my English is better now.
Now the statement about being educated and “language is less of a barrier”… Remember to read the keyword “less”.
So your analytical mind should be asking less than what or rather whom? See when you compare it must involve two or more things. Thats the way I do comparison at least.
So, what it means is that an uneducated non-English speaking busboy would have a harder time to climb up than an educated highly-qualified engineer who lacks English skills but is amazing in chip design. I know a very famous Japanese professor at U of Chicago who has been in the US for decades but still barely speaks English. His English is so bad that you would understand him better if he speaks Japanese instead of English even if you don’t understand Japanese (joke yo.). Anyway when he speaks people listen with the utmost respect. But man, its very hard to understand what he is speaking but you know that guy is super genius., so you listen. Yes, this guy has a very famous Prize.
Of course I am giving extreme examples to help illustrate clearly what I mean to you sp there is no confusion and spinning.
Chinesemom,
I think I am done discussing this topic with you. The best that I can summarize our positions is:
My view: Working like a donkey is often not enough if there are extra barriers in front of you based on your race, national origin, culture, etc. These barriers are unjust, and you need to protest so that they go away.
Your view: Work like a donkey to overcome the barriers. Life is unfair so accept these unfair burdens and keep quite, and be thankful for what you have. Protesting means you are playing the victim.
I have to agree to disagree with your view on life.
I think the biggest problem for African American is their victimized mentality and nothing in their community or culture can counter that. The biggest enemy of them is themselves.
Same for the Asian American community. Our biggest enemy isn’t racism, but ourselves, rooted in our culture and history. When I see AAs in this board and other places complaint about racism, Hollywood, unfair treatments etc, my reaction was often like “What? What’s wrong with that? This is just the life, you can’t expect other people to be the saint.”
As an American born, I think I understand your perspective as an immigrant, but I don’t think I agree with it. Yes, hard work is necessary to overcome hurdles in life and to provide for your self and your family. And perhaps an immigrant’s perspective is much different whereby they are not concerned about racist attitudes or stereotypical depictions when the main concern is survival and security first in a new land.
Yet, I’m not sure what you mean that our biggest enemy is our culture and history. And why would you accept being treated unfairly by anyone? Sure, life isn’t fair, but does that mean one has to accept indignities and resign oneself to a life of denied opportunities due to racism? Of course, you do the best you can with the system you are in, but it sounds as if you argue for fatalism.
I’ve been to Hong Kong but never to the mainland. Do Chinese in general under communist rule have a fatalistic outlook? I would think that immigrating to a more open society such as the US that one would lose the sense of fatalism and become more optimistic about the opportunities that are present and would want the same access to those opportunities as everyone else.
“Yet, I’m not sure what you mean that our biggest enemy is our culture and history”.
What I mean is that a lot of our problems and stereotypes are the results of our culture and history. These problems are bigger than racism for us now. It is our responsibility to change ourselves. Otherwise, racial prejudice will never go away.
“And why would you accept being treated unfairly by anyone?”
I don’t accept being treated unfairly by anyone. I’m all for people to stand up and speak up. The problem is our culture and history made us tend not to stand up and speak up for anything, which result in that we Asian immigrants don’t teach and encourage our children to do so. That why I said before that they raise wolves and we raise sheep. It is the second generation’s responsibility to tell new immigrants that they should adjust their way of raising children. But I don’t see many AA does that. Only Wesley Yang wrote that Paper Tiger article told us the scope of the problems that our son will face, but you guys don’t like him that much, right? So again, we are our worst enemy here.
Ok, thanks for clarifying your position.
I would agree that new immigrants find it difficult to adopt the new country’s cultural values and find comfort in their own. That is to be expected in some sense because they have not gone through any socialization process yet. Their children will be, if they are not too isolated by their parents from the greater and predominant culture around them.
But for those born here and are not immigrants, for those who are socialized and are culturally “American” or at the very least bi-cultural, there’s no need for us to change. It’s the greater society that needs to evolve and treat minority groups with greater respect. If it weren’t for gay and lesbian activists pushing for better treatment, they would not have the kind of social acceptance by the greater culture that they have now. However, I wouldn’t react to those who point out and stand up against negative Hollywood stereotypes and racist media depictions of Asians with your response of, “What? What’s wrong with that? This is just the life, you can’t expect other people to be the saint.”
Did you mean that immigrants attitudes are like that? Because for American born, those of us who were raised here and grew up doing the same things many other non-Asians did, I DO expect to be afforded the same respect and dignity that non-Asians give to anyone else. They (be it Hollwyood, non-Asians, media, etc) don’t have to be saintly; just treat me the same as anyone else is treated in a civil society.
@Mojo,
“Did you mean that immigrants attitudes are like that? Because for American born, …”
I don’t think there is any data to answer your question accurately. But be rest assured, there are Asians (lots of them) with a spine who will speak up for equal treatment. There is nothing inherent in Asian culture that says you don’t fight back. In fact Asian cultures have been quite bloody in the past. I am from one of those “head hunter” groups that Europeans encountered. And, no we don’t help you find jobs as head hunters.
LOL
And in my lineage there are cannibals XD
@John,
yeah, I don’t think there’s one answer because immigrant experiences are varied but I wanted to get a better explanation, ie, is there a particular mindset that immigrants have versus their American born?
I’m not trying to get into any debates with anyone, I was just curious about attitudes and about cultural identity. For example, when does one “become” an American and no longer an immigrant? Just what is an American? And more importantly, is there such thing as an Asian American community?
@mojo
As a 1.5 gen, my experience seems to suggest it’s the other way around where native born Asian American are at times more than happy to discriminate or make fun of JOBs .ir international student to either reinforce that they are ‘different’ .ir even worse, simply to please their white friends.
@N
interesting….yes, I’ve seen some of that as well unfortunately. I never made fun of any of the Asian international students or immigrants or was mean to any, but I admit I could’ve been friendlier and not as aloof. So I do feel bad about that. Yet, it kind of gets to the point that Ms. Catwalq and annasuki made, the divide between Africans and American born blacks.
So I kind of see chinesemom’s point, but to pick up on her point for discussion: are the native borns doing much to let the FOB’s know the pitfalls of the culture? And should it be our–the native borns– responsibility? And would it do any good to tell immigrant parents how to raise their kids in a western culture?
That assumes there is a community that is there for the immigrant families where they can get assistance in figuring out a new culture. perhaps a church community? or cultural centers? or maybe groups like the Asian Pacific American Legal Resource Center?
I ask all these questions because it’s always been my feeling that there really isn’t any Asian American community. Certainly not anything unified, there are too many different Asian groups—from the Thais, to the Hmongs, to Vietnamese, etc…
In short, I’ve always sense we are too divided and splintered to be any singular unifying force. So I can certainly see a divide between African immigrants and their American counterparts and why the NAACP wouldn’t embrace someone like Dabiri as part of their community.
@mojo
First of all, chinesemom is definitely on the extreme sides of things. She seem to hold extreme right wing ideals in regards to assimilation.
Secondly, I agree in some points and disagree in others. Again speaking of personal experience, my ‘pack’ consists of guys of a variety of ethnics, Chinese, Koreans , Vietnamese, Hmong but all are either 1.5 gen or 2nd gens. And I really don’t see there were any ‘cultural’ differences between the ethnics that would hinder our abilities to bond as a group (personal or political)
Personally, I think the Asian Community is divided due to a significant number of people with sell-out mentalities that are more interested in gaining approval from the white community then enhancing or embracing an Asian one.
“Personally, I think the Asian Community is divided due to a significant number of people with sell-out mentalities that are more interested in gaining approval from the white community then enhancing or embracing an Asian one.”
This sounds a lot like the Black community too…
Here we go again on an issue that won’t go away.
http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/9141475/jeremy-lin-houston-rockets-race-was-barrier-college
Did everyone notice how there is not one Asian person speaking out of this group discussing stuff? Lin has had a pretty decent season all things considering. Everyone was waiting for him to go away but yet his team is in the thick of making the playoffs. No one expected him to do anything this year and guys like Stephen A Smith and this roundtable couldn’t wait to bring up him only getting attention not cause of his skills but cause he’s Asian. So much hating on Asians here. It is unbelievable.
Also, I like how ESPN stacked this discussion with mostly African Americans cause if a white guy said this, they’d be in trouble.
I don’t remember if Hideo Nomo got this much flack when he broke the Asian barrier in baseball. Did the first black person who went to college with whites get this much negativity? Doesn’t history teach anyone anything?
I guess the NBA like anything is is a good ol boy network.
^Could only watch half way through. Hard to listen to a bunch of racists who are also retarded.
Getting on the front page of sports magazine is fine and great, but these experts seems to miss the point that perhaps Jeremy Lin liked playing ball, and would have preferred to given a fair chance to be drafted and play with the best. Somehow around 6:00 the commentator thinks unfairness is exclusive to the Blacks. Whatever.
The important thing is for Asian countries to invest more in science and technology. Thats what wins battles.
It’s something about Lin not only being Asian but being an American as well which is threatening to some. I think guys like Nomo or Yao Ming are still considered non English speaking freaks that no one could relate to But if you can get an articulate English speaking Asian guy in this good ol boy network. Wow, that’s a threat! And for some reason Blacks in the NBA are threatened by that who of all people should understand or relate to. Funny thing though, who is making the most money from the NBA? It’s not blacks but the owners who are all white except for Michael Jordan. And guess who’s fanning stuff like Linsanity, etc? The white owned NBA who wants to make money off the lucrative Asian markets. Can’t believe those guys can’t see that but want to blame Lin.
Jon wrote: The important thing is for Asian countries to invest more in science and technology. Thats what wins battles.
I could agree to some extent but you need both. You can’t just ignore the arts and entertainment. I know a lot of us are thinking, let them have their sports while we have stuff like technology, science and degrees. I think there is a fear someone like Lin can wake up those “sleeping” Asians just as Jackie Robinson did back in the day. Being an American, I don’t know what the success of places like China, South Korea and Japan can do for me since they don’t care much about Asian Americans.
I think there are stereotypes specific to basketball, that you, for example, don’t see in baseball. Like, Japan is known to be competitive in that sport, to the point that the Red Sox even paid a ton of money for “Dice K” (can’t remember the name, because I’m not really into baseball– too slow to watch).
In basketball, I think there are a number of other stereotypes in play. I think that in a lot of people’s minds basketball is a black sport, for whatever reason. “White men can’t jump” is a basketball stereotype (and the movie is pretty good too). I think that there is an anti-Asian stereotype in this sport, and my hypothesis is that it’s at least partly because of international performance. Remember, if China’s team, or any other Asian team sucks, people will probably transfer that to all Asians including Asian-Americans.
I think one of the reasons Yao Ming was able to get a contract, despite whatever anti-Asian stereotype exists, is the fact that he was such a tall guy. 6′ 3″ in basketball is really nothing to rave about in the first place, so when you combine that with a stereotype about skill, it’s probably one of the reasons Jeremy Lin was not given a chance.
That being said, he’s history in action, which is the cool thing. Kinda like Jackie Robinson and those guys, though not as dramatic since those guys were facing overt racism like Jim Crow laws and all the risks that come with that.
@Moro,
Its hard to dissect Asian-American and Asian cleanly when a large fraction of Asian-Americans are Asian born and raised.
Art and literature is important but what determines the size of the humanities departments in the Ivy leagues? Its the size of the overhead on the research grants in the STEMS. (I am only partly joking). Quality of life for Asians would improve with better education and technology. That raises the standard for everything … sports, arts, music, film … , and that impacts Asian-Americans who include a lot of Asian born and raised.
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I think the NBA was licking their chops w Yao Ming as their golden ticket to the big Chinese Market.
And yes, they saw a really tall guy and thought he had enough skills to play in the NBA. Ming would have been recruited heavily to play college basketball. Lin as you said experienced racism cause he wasn’t anything out of the ordinary although he did have a stellar record in High School. Lin was discriminated against cause he was ignored by schools. It wasn’t they didn’t want him to play for them, if they knew he could, they would have signed him. They just assumed cause he’s Asian, he must suck at basketball.
The NBA does want Lin to do well. It means a lot of money for everyone if he does. Just some of these players and experts are short-sighted and cannot see that. All they can see is some Asian guy who isn’t that great taking a job away from a black player.
The NBA was completely garbage before Larry Bird came onto the scene. No one was watching it. Some say it was a combo of Magic and Bird but I think your could have had Bird vs anyone and that would have gotten the NBA to where it is now.
I’m surprised no one brought up that Lin to some extent is going through what Bird did back in the day. You had players like Isiah Thomas mentioning how Bird is only getting the attention cause he is white. I remember the media was shocked by that statement.
It’s weird how no one learns from history and surprises me these so called, “gatekeepers” (experts) at ESPN don’t know much about anything and have learned nothing from the past.
That’s what happens when you get an angry guy like Stephen A Smith or former players to be discussing things about stuff they know nothing about.
And I do agree Lin as of now, isn’t that great of an NBA player (he had an amazing streak last year that not many has matched) He is a very good NBA player, but he wouldn’t get all this negative attention from guys like Stephen A Smith if he wasn’t Asian as well. Those guys only want to see what they want to which is hating on Asians. There are a lot of black players who get ridiculous contracts based on one good year. Not one mention from these racists.
And you even got this. Richard Sherman, a black NFL player is calling out Skip Bayless, a white guy who criticizes players. If Bayless wasn’t white. Would this Sherman guy say the same thing?
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/richard-sherman-gets-snarky-skip-bayless-provides-marginal-234849310–nfl.html
Lots of black analysts like Stephen A Smith call out players all the time. Does he get a pass cause he’s black?
I guess those guys don’t want to play this game.
Most overpaid players in the NBA according to FORBES.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/nbas-most-overpaid-players-095806608.html
Find it kind of ironic Melo is on this list.