I got this article from our friend Eric Jacobus from the Stunt People, and I think you all will enjoy it as much as I did: Hold Fast: How Forgetfulness Torpedos Your Journey to Becoming the Man You Want to Be, and Remembrance Is the Antidote. The story begins with a story of four friends who try to explore a cave while holding onto a rope. From there, it goes into Plato’s Phaedrus and how life is about remembering who we want to be, and how we need to constantly repeat life’s lessons to ourselves so that we really learn. It’s a great view on how to truly become what you want to become. The crux of the story is that we need to hold onto our values.
One thing that struck me in particular was that (ironically) it reminded me of Michael Gurian’s book The Wonder of Boys, which I linked (again ironically) in my post about Asian American Masculinity. The really, really liberal left have got it all wrong, and they’ve always had it all wrong–while we can toss off the misguided values of the past (which is something that the far right refuses to do), we need to relearn the values of the past. This is why I try to raise my kids with traditional stories that teach values–to be brave, truthful, and good. It’s not just about questioning values, it’s about learning them. We always benefit from the wisdom of our ancestors and/or those who came before us, and yes, we need to hold fast to that rope.
I must have been raised with those same stories too, and perhaps at one point i really believed them.
I guess the true worth of an ideal is what you still keep after you’ve thrown away absolutely everything else.
Yes, I consider to install values to my children is the most important task for me as a parent. I found that a lots of western literature for kids teach values, especially the values you mentioned. For example, Harry Potter, Star Wars, etc., are all about the good vs. evil. There are a lots of values to be learned from those stories.
While reading books is a good way to learn values, I think the best way to teach kids about values is through life experiences.
ChineseMom,
I’m guessing it’s a Christianity thing. In the West, thinkers tend to categorize more, and Good vs. Evil is the most popular duality.
I think I had this conversation with you before, and am trying to remember–was it in the Masculinity thread? Maybe it’s my lack of knowledge, but the Chinese kid’s stories just don’t have the same kind of force that the Western kid’s stories do. Maybe it’s because of the duality of good vs. evil.
Big,
First of all, there is not much stories for kids in Chinese literature. When my kids were little, we went back to China often, and every time I would search the book store to try to find some Chinese book for my kids. Among the few book I found, they were all badly written and often teaches the wrong things. So I gave up. Nowadays, the book market for children are full of Disney stuff and other Western book’s translation.
We really don’t have much values to pass down besides those in Confucianism. That why I think we are “inferior” or “naive” compare to the West and we have long long way to go to be able to compete with the West. Compare to primitive or “barbarian” tribes, civilized people have more values which make them stronger and more advanced collectively. Christianity and Confucius set values 2000 years ago, that what make the nations and people that inherited those values strong and more advanced today. But in the West, more events happened, they learned more and they cumulated more wisdom since then, we didn’t grow much in past 2000 years.
The funny thing is that after I came to this country, I found that a lot of things that Mao promoted and taught in China since I was little were actually valued and praticed in here. But to think about it, it is very natural. What Mao accomplished is probably nobody can match in past 1000 years of Chinese history. He must had done something right. His wisdom and what he learned from his experience and victory should not be lightly dismissed.
Yes, we had this conversation before when I first came to your blog, and I think it is the first question you asked me in that Masculinity thread.
If you really want to teach your kids about courage, truthfulness, and good through Chinese literature, may be you can read him some books of Jin Yong. His books are martial arts stories, mostly about good vs evil, very famous in China since 80′s.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_Yong)
A lot of his books have made into movies or tv series. If your kids understand some mandarin or cantonese, you may get some DVD for them to watch. But still, the original books are better.
You may read the translation of one of Jin Yong’s book here. I hope the translation isn’t as bad as those of Lu Xun’s book.
http://asianfanatics.net/forum/topic/741158-%26%2323556%3B%26%2338613%3B%26%2333521%3B%26%2338596%3B%26%2320256%3B-the-legend-of-the-condor-heroes-english-translation/
Thanks ChineseMom! I think my kids are too young for novels, but it’s good to know.
In the book Chinese Girl in the Ghetto, Ying Ma spoke about her values being inspired by martial arts novels–loyalty, truthfulness, courage, etc.. I’m interested in learning more.
For now, it’s just Jack and the Beanstalk and Pinocchio…
I think a key difference is the moral setup. You can see this even in movies. In HK movies, for example, good guys and bad guys are often the same. Chow Yun Fat can be an assassin and be both good and bad. It’s very complex. In American movies, there’s good and bad. Luke Skywalker is good, Darth Vader is bad. It’s probably easier to write these kinds of stories if your culture sees things in terms of good and bad.
But I do think it’s good to think in moral terms.
@bigwowo
What Chinesemom said is some of the biggest BS I’ve heard for a long time (maybe Mainland China is THAT bad, though I doubt it, but it’s definitely different in Taiwan and HK). I’m not sure what kind of level of Chinese you or your kids would know, but there are plenty of great Chinese Children books out there (especially the taiwanese publishers).
I think you’re probably looking towards something like this:
http://www.yesasia.com/global/kuai-le-xiao-xue-tang-zeng-guang-xian-wen-fucd/1005164700-0-0-0-en/info.html
增廣賢文 is essentally a collection of fables/tales that teaches morality to children (in the ancient days) and above is a children education’s modern interpretation /explanation of it. Original text would be too difficult to read for most kids nowadays.
And there’s plenty of great children versions (usually illustrated) of traditional tales like ‘Three Kingdoms’ and ‘Journey to the west’. As you would probably know, most, if not all kids love ‘Journey to the west’ and there’s plenty of values taught in there.
If you just walk around a large Kinokuniya, you’ll probably see what I’m talking about. I’m not too familiar with Portland, but I remember a fairly good one in Seattle (maybe too far for you.)
Another medium is Manga when your kid grows older – especially now you can get english translated ones. Sport mangas like ‘Slam Dunk’ preaches bravery, comradeship, hard work etc. Currently in Japan, ‘Kuroko no Basket’ is probably THE sports manga right now, though it’s arguably even more popular with readers that are girls (for different reasons). Area no Kishi is a brillant soccer one.
I’m happy to talk Jin Yong as well (I pretty much self taught my Chinese reading his books), but unless your kids are very interested in Chinese, it’s quite difficult. I’ll definitely start off with illustrated books first.
Big,
When the first time I read Star Wars, I often suspected that the author had read some of those Chinese martial arts novels. Force, meditation and a lot other things are the elements in martial arts and Qi Gong.
Now, thinking about it, you may be right that Good vs. Evil is originated from Christianity, and loyalty, truthfulness, courage are the things that necessary for the good to fight evil. Confucianism put loyal to emperor, respect and obedient to authority and elder as the highest priority, so truthfulness and courage can’t be valued. And now we don’t have emperor anymore, our loyalty has nowhere to go.
N,
I always think that reading Jin Yong is a good way for kids to learn Chinese and I will recommend my kids to read it when they grow up. His books are very addictive. I’m glad you did that.
You are wrong about 增廣賢文. It is not what you think, and not collection of fables and tales. I definitely won’t teach my kids those kind of things at young age. It’s too dark. You may know more about 增廣賢文 from here.
http://baike.baidu.com/view/53635.htm
‘Journey to the west’ is good for kids. When I was young, there was graphic version of it. But 1o years ago in China, I didn’t find any. I have its cartoon DVD though. My son watched a lot if it.
How in the world could one debate the very
I’m inclined that this could be reflection of the subject matter and/or the time in which a particular movie was produced. Like, for example, some of the other movies from the 70′s have very dark anti-heroes. If you’ve ever had a chance to check out Taxi Driver, The Godfather series, The Wild Bunch, or The French Connection you might agree.
I think that the 80′s decade was much more like you describe with the black hat vs white hat dichotomy (much like the 50′s). Some reviews I’ve read of action movies of the era rightly describe Stallone’s and Swarchzenegger’s movies as right wing libertarian propaganda (they’re hillarious reviews too, but it’s not entirely tongue-in-cheek).
Of that decade, the only popular movie that I can remember having complex shades of gray was Rambo: First Blood (the only good, non-silly movie in the series). Even then, though, you clearly sympathized with John Rambo.
I don’t watch many modern films anymore, but I think that the a similar mood to those other movies of the 70′s prevails. I think that people nowadays, even in America, tend to see things less black and white.
I’ve heard the saying: if you believe everything you read, you might as well not read anything.
The conflation that anything you see in print can only be the unvarnished truth is an idea that survives only in the most authoritarian and repressive regimes in the world. People there are so beaten and starved of independent, critical thought that they will cling to anything they find, just for the feeling of certainty. (This is my response to what was written about First Blood)
Children’s stories may work fine when kids are still young and vulnerable and need stability and assurance. But the ladder is a steep one, unless your vision consists entirely of them fitting in at the lowest rung and doing their part to spout and repeat the platitudes.
When values have real costs, that is when you find out how much they are truly worth.
And also, if anybody else really believes them.
ChineseMom,
Yes, I think it’s a Western thing. It probably started somewhat with the Jews and monotheism, and it reached a head when religious people started promoting a guy who said, “I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father EXCEPT THROUGH ME.” With that statement, there began a cultural shift of categorization–you’re part of the right team, or you’re part of the wrong team. Most moral issues, I think, are gray, but some are clearly black and white.
And yes, the creator of Star Wars got a lot of his material from Asian sources. George Lucas was a big fan of Kurosawa.
N:
Thanks for the recommendation! There is a tiny, tiny little Kinokuniya in Portland that sits at the back of a supermarket. I think I may have Journey to the West in comic form, but I never opened it up because it looked so complicated, with all the names, etc! I should check it out.
Thanks also for the yesasia link. I’ll check that out. My son’s written Chinese is much better than mine. If he is, as ChineseMom says, too young for it, then it’ll wait, but I think it’s good to know. I’ll check it out!
Notty,
Good points!
I think people probably incorporate influences globally these days. Just as George Lucas like Kurosawa, there are probably many many many ways in which Asian storytellers borrow Western influences.
I don’t watch many films these days either, but I’m willing to bet it’s like music. Just as Kpop and Jpop sound similar to American 80′s music, there’s still a cultural heritage. A focus, for example, on the traditional 5-note scale that lots of Asian music uses. I’m guessing that a student of culture and film could probably point to numerous examples of some kind of legacy that filmmakers find in their respective cultures. I.e. the filmmaker doesn’t fall far from the tree.
@chinesemom
It’s a modern interpretation, children’s version of it, so you know, it’s filtered down for kids. Obviously if you take old writings word by word, it won’t work. Just like if you take old testament word by word then you’ll probably be in jail.
In Jin Yong, there’s a lot of violence, politics, enunchs, r4pe, polygamy etc. Not exactly for kids and really borderline for pre-teens. And especially Deer Duke, definitely not for kids.
But some of the values preached in these novels are good, including Jin Yong has a great hatre towards sellouts which is reflected in his writing.
big,
Funny thing is that after Communists took power in China, we have a period of that kind of categorization. Culture Revolution is the peak, everything is black and white. Then Deng got rid of that kind of categorization. Now we don’t have any thing and in a complete moral demise. During the culture revolution, the few novels, movies and modern Peking operas we had are mostly about “good” vs. “evil”.
N,
I suspect that you didn’t read that baidu link about 增廣賢文 I posted for you.
增廣賢文 is a collection of Chinese proverbs and literature Quotes, not fables and tales, can’t be re-interpreted. A lot of them still are widely used today. I guess the book that you recommend is a collection of fables and tales made up by some author in Taiwan or Hong Kong to interpret some of those proverbs. So, if they picked the good proverbs and made a good story of them, then it is okay.
Jin Yong is no more violence than Star War or Dragon Ball. Enunchs and polygamy is just part of Chinese history. Nothing in it is inappropriate. Millions of Chinese preteens and teens read them. I think most of his Wu Xia books are more or less like Harry Potter.
@chinesemom
Um. If you actually read what I said about Jin Yong, it’s definitely okay for teens, but for kids under 10? I don’t think so. Some are borderline for pre-teens. For example, a novel with character chopping their penises off to gain extra martial arts skills or a main character that r4ped girls is not reading material for young ones.
I love Jin Yong, but unless the reader is old enough to understand the context of these actions, then you got a lot of explaining to do as a parent.
Oh yeah, and to provide some political background. Jin Yong’s novels were serialized in his newspaper Mingpao where he says he writes about social issues with his left hand and martial arts novel with his right.
And he was on HK government’s special protection list because his paper openly criticized the cultural revolution and was demonized by the left Wong press at that time. Almost all his novels are written in 60s.
Haha N, I’m glad you know something about Jin Yong.
Do you know Jin Yong satirized and insinuated Culture Revolution in his books? I doubt you can understand or recognize those parts or characters. But it doesn’t matter, you still can enjoy those stories. I don’t think the few enunch or r4pe scenes will affect a 6 or 7 years to enjoy the story even if he doesn’t understand them. Also, those things were done by the bad guys.
I’m wondering know if you have ever read manga book Dragon Ball. The turtle guy (the good old man) often harass young girls trying to see their underwear. Those kind of things are so bad tastes that I really didn’t feel comfortable to let my son to read it. But it was too late when I found out.
@chinesemom
Not just the turtle guy, the first volume was close to p0rnographic in certain sections (eg. When Goku slept between Burma, then proceeds to remove her underwear…leading him to think that she’s a devil because she didn’t have anything between her legs.)
I’m actually named after one of the characters in the novel, you know, the one where the whole novel is a basically a political satire.
@chinesemom
Which is a actually why I thought it was extra ironic that after all your Mao praise, you recommended Jin Yong.
Because I don’t see things as black and white, all or nothing now. Jin Yong is a great writer, Mao was a great statesman, revolutionist, strategist, poet, and a lots of other things. Both of them had their limitations though.