“If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

The story about Trayvon Martin has been igniting the blogosphere. The facts as we know it so far are this: a 28 year old man named George Zimmerman, who was part of a neighborhood watch group, shot and killed an unarmed 17-year-old black teenager. Zimmerman is claiming self-defense. Today, Obama stepped out and said, “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.” It’s significant because we now have a black man married to a black woman with two black children in the highest office in the land, and his words carry weight. See more here.

I haven’t been following the story, but there are some notable facts that may make this a highly contested trial.

1. Zimmerman was listed on the police report as “white,” but he says he’s Hispanic. He looks Hispanic from most of the pictures I’ve seen.

2. There has been speculation on whether Zimmerman used a racial slur while dialing 911. So far, people have disagreed on what he said, even after listening to the tapes.

3. Trayvon was on his cell phone with his girlfriend right before the shooting. She could prove to be a crucial witness.

211 thoughts on ““If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

  1. On principle, I support stand your ground laws.

    This is tragic but I put a lot of the blame on the judicial system that did not stop the burglaries in the area, which prompted zimmerman to do what he had to do.

  2. From what I have gathered the “stand your ground” law gives you the right to protect yourself in your home (with weapon(s)). However, danger or perceived danger must be coming to you not you going after danger or seeking it in any matter. In the case of Zimmerman and Martin it is clear by the 911 tapes that Zimmerman was following Martin meaning the “stand your ground” law does not apply.

    I’m surprised that the police did not do much of anything in aspects to someone who just murdered another person, a teenager (child) for that matter. No suspicions to why? Anyone can claim self-defense especially when the other party are not able tell their side of story….

    In response to Chen’s post: It’s not the judicial system that is responsible for stopping the burglaries that led to Zimmerman self appoint himself as head of neighborhood watch it’s the police who are responsible for enforcing the law and the judges for judging them. I just think that your word choice, “judicial,” is the wrong one. A judge cannot convict anyone if there is no one to lay the charges against. Measures should have been taken to prevent or curtail the burglaries that were going on in the neighborhood (ie cameras, police patrol/drive thru etc).

  3. @bww

    White American Daddy and mother’s from Peru from a report I’ve read.

    But why isn’t he locked up is beyond me.

  4. @ Chen:

    Zimmerman did what he had to do? What did he “have” to do?

    The stand your ground law encourages douchebags to think they have the right to shoot people, if they THINK they are in danger. If they are incorrect, they might get in trouble with the law later, but they still shot someone. Trayvon is still dead, and he’s dead because someone thought he was justified in shooting him.

    The problem with carrying any weapon is that you might use it. Without that boost of courage from holding a gun, a guy like Zimmerman might be less brazen about how he approached the situation. Why bother doing something sensible, like trying to defuse the situation, when you know you have a gun?

  5. What Obama said was lame and pretty useless. He should have said, kids…listen up. Stop wearing the goddamn hoodies. To a cop, you look like the guy caught on video robbing a 7-11. Don’t be stupid like Trayvon.

  6. Kobukson: What Obama said was lame and pretty useless. He should have said, kids…listen up. Stop wearing the goddamn hoodies. To a cop, you look like the guy caught on video robbing a 7-11. Don’t be stupid like Trayvon.

    Are you serious? That’s like saying the extermination of so many Jews would not have happened if they just converted to Christianity, or the classic she would not have been rape if she was not dressed so seductively, or Asian males are perceived as effeminate because of their own doing and not media….

    I’m trying really hard to find what could have prompted you to possibly use sarcasm because no previous response would provoke anyone to do so. So I’m left to think that you are….

  7. @ ES, if someone attacks you in close quarters (within five feet) and you have not yet drawn or readied your firearm, it is a very dangerous situation. If you lose that fight you will probably lose that firearm and that’s one more weapon floating around the streets unaccounted for. If you are attacked with a knife you can be fucked up really badly and slain before you manage to draw your gun.

    Bottomline: if you have a firearm and you are attacked, the situation may be considered extremely dangerous for yourself and even bystanders.

    In my opinion the problem with this slaying is in the ambiguous, suspicious circumstances with which it occurred, and not the law per se.

  8. Zimmerman says he is Hispanic. His mom is Latino and his dad is white. He identifies with his minority side just like Obama. As far as I am concerned he is as Hispanic as Obama is Black. The media is twisting itself trying to figure out how to play this story since Zimmerman is mestizo.

    The over 6′ tall football player Trayvon was under suspension from his school (maybe for violence related reasons?). Zimmerman looks fat an nonathletic.

    The word Zimmerman says under his breadth is “fuckin’ punks;” there is no discernible slur.

    The Orlando Sentinel reports that George Zimmerman’s father, Robert Zimmerman, sent them a one page letter.

    The most interesting part of the letter:

    “At no time did George follow or confront Mr. Martin. When the true details of the event became public, and I hope that will be soon,” the letter said, “everyone should be outraged by the treatment of George Zimmerman in the media.”

    The implication of that is that George merely got out of his car to look around, and then Trayvon surprised him by charging and attacking. Which would explain why there was grass on George’s back, as reported previously. He was knocked to the ground.

    With a thug beating him up, it’s understandable he would defend himself by shooting. Remember, there’s no report about Trayvon being shot in the back. I’m sure if Travyon had been shot in the back, we would have heard about it by now.

    If that’s the way it happened. There’s no convincing evidence that it didn’t happen that way. This is an outrageous case of media bias. The media decided what they story should be, and then they are trying to find facts justifying that depiction while ignoring contrary evidence.

  9. Whoa, Fun9876 decides the black guy is to blame. Didn’t see that one coming.

    What makes Trayvon a “thug”, exactly, Fun?

    @ Raguel:

    what I was referring to earlier is that while some fights/attacks are certainly unavoidable (ie. someone jumps you), most are. Most of the time dudes escalate it with their behaviour (ie. talking shit, aggressive posturing, not wanting to back down).

    While it may seem counter-intuitive, in a lot of cases having a weapon, or knowing how to fight, will actually make a person more likely to get hurt. I personally have no real idea of how to fight someone, and don’t carry a weapon; this means that I’m more likely to think about ways to avoid getting beat up. For a lot of people, having a weapon or fighting training just takes away the fear, but fear helps keep us alive.

  10. @ Eurasian Sensation,

    I am not sure at this point if Zimmerman’s actions were justified. No one knows at this point.

    However if he was indeed getting the shit beat out of him and thought he was going to get killed then I can see how it could be justifiable. On the other hand if Zimmerman life was not being threatened or was not under the threat of severe bodily trauma and if he could defuse the situation then I think he had an obligation to do so. We will just have to wait until more facts come out. I just don’t like the way the lynch mob has already showed up before anyone really knows what’s going on. CBS and other news outlets didn’t even think of doing an image search for this guy; it’s not hard to see the guy looks Latino.

  11. @ ES, I think I get your point. I have noticed that some of these “self-defence” schools really teach and inculcate a siege mentality.

    I think that when you carry a weapon then the onus is on the carrier to avoid all potentially dangerous situations and environments and to back down if necessary and defuse conflicts because all fights are now potentially lethal.

    The more I’m listening to the 911 tapes the more I’m thinking that Zimmerman’s story is bullshit. Did you guys hear the one with Trayvon crying for help before he died yet?

  12. There is a reason why Neighborhood Watch is not called “Neighborhood Voluntary Amateur Police Force.” The deterrent factor of Neighborhood Watch is that people in the neighborhood are aware and ready to report suspicious behavior, not driving around armed pulling people over to confront them. A non-deputized citizen does not have the right to demand identification from another citizen who just happens to be walking in his neighborhood, surprisingly even if he is wearing a sweatsuit top with a hood on it.

    The facts that are known are that Trayvon Martin was a 17 year old kid. He was 100 pounds lighter than Zimmerman. He was NOT breaking the law and he was in the neighborhood visiting relatives. He was not armed, nor was he causing any trouble. He was not on anyone’s private property.

    Zimmerman, on the other hand, admits to following Trayvon even though the Police told him they didn’t need him to do that (meaning stop doing it). Yet, Zimmerman got out of his car and confronted Trayvon on foot while armed, WHICH HE HAD NO RIGHT TO DO. The end result of this confrontation was that the unarmed minor was shot by the armed adult who had no legal authority to confront him, and was told NOT to follow him.

    From all that I have heard from the family, they are not asking for a lynch mob, or a race war, or some other brand of vigilante justice. What they are asking is that Zimmerman be arrested and investigated, given the circumstances if the case. Once arrested Zimmerman can post bail, hire an attorney (or have a public defender provided for him), and have his day in court. That does not sound unreasonable to me gicen the circumstances of this case.

  13. @ Raguel:

    “I think that when you carry a weapon then the onus is on the carrier to avoid all potentially dangerous situations and environments and to back down if necessary and defuse conflicts because all fights are now potentially lethal.”

    This is my problem with the gun culture in the US. The NRA and other gun fetishists who want a society where everyone is armed to the teeth seem to assume that human beings will always know how to behave responsibly and sensibly with firearms. Obviously they’ve never spent time around actual human beings.

  14. I like how Obama is using his screen time to address stuff in the news that celebs are tweeting about……. go get them votes buddy. election time is just around the corner.

    Although the incident is tragic and unjust, for the President to get involved and talk about this on tv….. I’m don’t think it’s appropriate.

  15. I’m leaning against Trayvon. So assessment so far is Zimmerman was an overly zealous neighborhood watch police academy reject. He goes around playing superhero and charging into situations without understanding discretion is the better part of valour. My assessment so far is Zimmerman basically kept poking him until he push him over his anger threshold and fight back. The 100 pound comment is absurd. Zimmerman 100 pound advantage is all fat and he is decades older and slower. Trayvon fought back, but he didn’t know Zimmerman had a gun.

    So my suspicion is neither side is without fault. But the media have largely been portraying Zimmerman as the devil rather than a doofus and Trayvon as a perfect angel when he was understandably provoked after Zimmerman’s aggression to the point he believed he has to use his gun. In terms of the law, I guess it comes down to onus goes to Zimmerman’s harassment or Trayvon’s wraith. I think manslaughter charges could be the right area.

    What annoys me is the most of the media is ignoring those notes. They focus on how his is white when he is not. They focus on portraying how perfect Trayvon and how evil is Zimmerman. They ignore the injuries found on Zimmerman. They basically aren’t giving a full picture of the story.

  16. zim was definitely overzealous even though martin didn’t help his situation. The racial profiling angle would be a hard sell to me. Martin was just in a bad place running through a neighborhood with legitimate concerns about curbing crime.

    Whats weird is that the only pictures they show on the news is victim at 13 years old. He was actually 17 and he played football. I cant see how he couldn’t outrun that fatass.

    I dont know if Obama should be making those statements when he his own department is investigating the murder.

  17. In my opinion, once you have armed yourself a HUGE part of the responsibility falls on you to be the one to back off in a confrontation that you yourself initiated. If you know that you have a gun in your pocket then you have no business continuing in an escalation of words and emotion, because the chances are that you going to end up shooting the person you are confronting. If you start poking, pushing, or yelling at someone knowing that you are armed, and are then able to provoke that person into a fight, it is no good trying to claim self defense after you have used deadly force to end the fight that was the resulted of your provocation.

  18. Chinese labourers used to be fatally shot for sport in similar circumstances so I’m surprised to see the comments here going out of their way to protect Zimmerman with such fertile imagination.

    Where do you think the phrase “Chinaman’s chance” came from?

  19. Put yourself in Trayvon Martin’s shoes for a moment. What if you were being obviously followed by a strange car as you’re walking through a neighborhood that you are just visiting. The person following you is White, ten years older than you, are and an adult. You try to walk faster as you’re talking on the phone telling your girlfriend what’s going on. You seem to lose the guy or at least he seems to drive off. Then a minute or two later the same guy that was following you shows up right in front of you, this time on foot.

    You’re asking yourself, What does an older White guy want with me? Is he a serial killer, a sexual predator, a member of the KKK? (Just in case you’re wondering, Black people get scared too when they are approached by an aggressive stranger.) So the guy doesn’t identify himself as a cop, but starts asking all kinds of question as if you don’t have any right to be walking down the street. At this point, the adrenaline level is high and you switch into “Fight or Flight” mode. Probably at this point insults start to fly and someone throws the first punch.

    Can you really say that if you were in this situation that you would have reacted any more nobly than Travon?

  20. King,

    Why do you insist on calling this fat Zimmerman dude White? It may be outside your ideal narrative but one look at him makes it clear he is Hispanic/Mexican/Latino. Further Zimmerman says he is Hispanic. Haven’t you been paying attention?

    The main reason this case is getting attention is because the shooter was not Black. Black guys like Trayvon kill each other all the time and it never gets this type of media attention.

  21. So I was randomly patrolling the internet for a good science website to add to my blogroll and I found this interesting article from Science Daily….
    “Holding a Gun Makes You Think Others Are Too, New Research Shows”
    “ScienceDaily (Mar. 21, 2012) — Wielding a gun increases a person’s bias to see guns in the hands of others, new research from the University of Notre Dame shows.”

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120321152627.htm

    PS: Fat cells can absorbs punches. Take that for it’s worth. And no, I don’t know how to make a link linkable. Sorry.

  22. @ Fun

    Please look up:

    1) Hispanic (which is is a linguistic designation);
    2) Mexican (which is a national designation) and;
    3) Latino (which is a cultural designation)

    And discover to your own chagrin that none of those are RACIAL designations. If you take an informed look at almost every latin American country you will notice an established racial hierarchy with White Europeans at the top and indigenous indian populations at the bottom and mixtures of the the two distributed in between. So, saying that because a person can trace ancestry from Latin american country in NOT to say that they are not “White.”

    If you take a look at Hispanic racial self-desination, large percentages identify themselves as “White” even though to North American eyes they are not. The type of Whites that originated from Spain and Portugal look closer to their Romance language cousins, the Italians, and French who are (in the 2oth Century) judged to be White.

    Zimmerman’s father is White-designated and his mother is probably a mixture White with some percent admixture of Native American. So essentially, he is White with a mixed Latino cultural background.

  23. Zimmerman is just as “White” as Obama and Eurasian Sensation, that is, if we only go by the fact that one of the parents happens to be White. Is Obama or ES White?

    The fact that Zimmerman self-identifies as Hispanic is all you should need to know. I suppose he could also be classified as a Spanish speaking “person of color” or multiracial. Zimmerman’s mom is Peruvian, and Zimmerman could pass as looking like an ordinary Mexican. No one calls people who we associate with being Mexicans White (although some Mexicans are White or a have a lot of White ancestor. A “White Hispanic” would be Cameron Diaz, Emilio Estevez, etc.

  24. “The main reason this case is getting attention is because the shooter was not Black. Black guys like Trayvon kill each other all the time and it never gets this type of media attention.”

    As for the Black on Black excuse, actually,there have been recent Black on Black cases that have “gotten attention.” But in the vast majority of these cases it’s an either or.

    Either:
    – It’s a gang on gang or criminal on criminal killing or;
    – It’s an attempted criminal on criminal killing + accidental death of a bystander;
    – It’s a killing in the commission of a robbery.

    We all understand all of those motives and decry them, whether they happen in Compton or Hong Kong. But the reason that this case is “getting attention” is NOT because a White guy killed a Black guy. It’s because a White adult killed an unarmed Black minor who was innocent of any crime AND THEN WAS NOT CHARGED OR EVEN THOROUGHLY INVESTIGATED AS A RESULT. Please try to address what the actual issue being raised is. The original murder was one thing, but the nonchalant EXCUSING of the murderer was quite another.

  25. “The fact that Zimmerman self-identifies as Hispanic is all you should need to know.”

    Except that we do not know that.

    All that we know is that he self-identifies as Hispanic NOW. What he identified himself as last week before the pressure was on is anyone’s guess.

  26. @King

    He has a white american daddy (and Zimmerman, according to google, is a surname of German origin). Obviously, it would be convenient for him to claim he’s hispanic now to reduce the chances of being convicted of a hate crime.

    He doesn’t even seem to have the “I’m not racist, I have a black friend/girlfriend” defence lined up yet.

  27. King,

    I am afraid that you are coming across as a bit disingenuous, perhaps letting your own race bias you. If you saw Zimmerman on the street your first thought would probably be that he is some Mexican dude. Just look at him. That was my impression before finding out about his Peruvian mother.

    If Zimmerman was 100% Peruvian would you be calling him White? No one considers the indigenous people of Peru White, the group to which his mother belongs. But since he is 50% Peruvian and 50% White (with a surname inherited from his father) he is automatically “White” in your mind? Get real. This guy would qualify for affirmative action benefits. He can accurately be described as Hispanic/Latino/Mestizo/multiracial.

    I really do hope justice prevails in this case, no matter what the outcome. We need more information. The sad thing here is that a lynch mob is forming; you have the Nation of Islam distributing posters saying wanted, dead or alive. He moved out of him home because of death threats. People, including those in the media, are looking for a great White defendant, think Tawana Brawley, the Duke rape hoax, the Henry Louis Gates arrest controversy, etc., etc. People just need to wait for more information to come out and set aside the noose for a moment; that’s all there is to it. But here’s some added info to add to what has not been publicized much in the MSM: ”

    “Zimmerman was on the ground being punched when he shot Trayvon Martin:”
    http://www.examiner.com/charleston-conservative-in-charleston-sc/zimmerman-was-on-the-ground-being-punched-when-he-shot-trayvon-martin

    Here’s a much more outrageous, egregious, and cruel crime interracial crime: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117695/Brutal-home-invasion-Oklahoma-couple-ends-65-year-romance-meeting-blind-date.html

  28. I hera you N. and agree.

    @ Fun,

    I’m afraid it is you who are being disingenuous this time. When someone Black is playing the race card I call it like it is. I disagree with Jesse Jackson about 80% of the time, if not more. But in this case, it’s just obvious that the suspect should have been taken in. There are way to many inconsistencies for him to have avoided an arrest this far away from the incident.

    As for his being “White” or not, it all dpends on how you want to define White. His mother could easily be a Peruvian who looks like this:

    http://www.loveme.com/women/info114310.htm

    With a very high European admixture. Or she could be pure Peruvian indian like this woman (but somehow I doubt it)

    http://www.unique-southamerica-travel-experience.com/peru-jungle.html

    Which means that Zimmerman’s mother was probably already a “Barack Obama” of sorts herself, meaning that she was probably a person of mixed genetic heritage. Add to that the fact that Zimmerman’s father is pure European, meaning that Zimmerman could be 75% or 80% European, and being raised in a mostly Eurocentric North American culture. I know that it’s tempting to try and make him a non-White because he doesn’t look Scandinavian or Anglo Saxon, BUT THOSE ARE NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH WHO ARE CONSIDERED TO BE WHITE.

    If up to now, you have been looking at dark-haired, dark-eyed people in Latin America and thinking they are some other race, bear in mind that Spanish people in Europe who look like this are considered WHITE.

    http://www.topnews.in/sports/files/flores.jpg

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00803/460-Javier-Bardem_803139c.jpg

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/691/sergioasenjo.jpg/sr=1

    As are Italian men who look like this:

    http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200812/r319982_1424396.jpg

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/_tyler/4116530510/

    http://lh5.ggpht.com/condegerald/SLWobS2GUfI/AAAAAAAAbVs/ScgON1r4p18/AntonioCupo22.jpg

    As are Greek men who look like this:

    http://images2.fanpop.com/images/polls/247000/247739_1244286215132_full.jpg

    You’re problem Fun is that you don’t really know what White is. You think you know, but you don’t. You look around you at the most common look of American Whiteness and you think that’s the standard but it isn’t. There are plenty of people around the world who are considered to be White who don’t look like your supposed American version. I’m telling you that Zimmerman would be considered to be White in most places in the world. It’s your definition of Whiteness that is hopelessly behind the times.

  29. Guess people want to ignore that this guy has a Jewish dad. Jewish?Quiet! we dont want to offend lol call the PC brigade!

  30. @ trolldetector:
    for someone who detects trolls, you make a pretty good troll yourself.

    @ Fun:
    Whether Zimmerman is white or Hispanic is really not that important. Trayvon was probably more concerned with the fact that someone was following him, rather than the nuances of the guy’s cultural identification. For what it’s worth, from a distance and at night, he’d probably look white. Either way, it doesn’t matter, except perhaps for the radical anti-racists who believe minorities can’t be racist.

  31. King,

    Just looking at the facts, it would seem that there ought to be a good possibility of manslaughter charges–at the very least. Exactly why a civilian drives around with a gun like a police officer–that’s problematic at many levels.

    I agree with you that there ought to eventually be an arrest, but it’s possible that given the media interest behind this story, law enforcement is simply trying to build an airtight case before arresting him. If they arrest him, they pretty much have to charge him right away, so they may be trying to tighten it before moving forward.

  32. I agree, Wowo. At this point, they have to be extremely thorough and careful. However, the Sanford Police Department should have done their due diligence and followed through on testing for alcohol or drugs (as is standard procedure) as well as other irregularities. But at this point, it will take time to put together a solid case.

  33. “Whether Zimmerman is white or Hispanic is really not that important. Trayvon was probably more concerned with the fact that someone was following him, rather than the nuances of the guy’s cultural identification.”

    I agree with you Eurasian. However, I think that there is a point to be made about the conveniently shifting definitions of “Whiteness.” Back when the Mafia were gunning people down in their heyday, (from the 1920s to the 1950s) American Whites were calling Italians “Wops,” and “Guineas,” and treating them as if they were another race altogether. However, once the negative behavior was contained (for the most part) they suddenly became White again.

    In our present day, Most of the great drug cartels of Columbia and now Mexico were not started by indigenous native indians, but by European-descended families—in other words, WHITE PEOPLE. But American Whites today are trying to make the same distinctions as before. These Whites are not REAL Whites! They speak another language, have brown eyes, and tend to be brunettes!!! And why is that? Because it is uncomfortable to trace back most of the violence in this country, and gang violence back to White people in another country. So the solution is to just make them non-White. Blame the local Black gangsters and pretend that the ultimate White source of the violence is not really White.

    This is the same thing that Fun is trying to pull off with Zimmerman. His dad is a White American father with a German surname, his mother was Born in Peru (probably of mixed European stock) but DON”T call him White! He’s clearly not White at all.

    The race is not really the issue for me, I just find it interesting how White Americans see race when it comes to other people of majority European heritage.

  34. @ King,

    Did you even read what I wrote? I said “He can accurately be described as Hispanic/Latino/Mestizo/multiracial.”And this is true. Apparently this guy has self-identified as Hispanic/Latino and according to him and his friends and family, this was even long before the shooting (it would be a logical thing to do, if not based on appearance than at least for affirmative action benefits). I don’t hear you calling Obama or Eurasian Sensation White because of one White parent. Yet you make bizarro speculations as to what the racial breakdown of his mother is; weird. All we know at this point is that she is Peruvian; we don’t know if she is X percentage White or not; likewise we do not know if his father has any non-White racial ancestry.

    Do remember the Richard Jewel, the Duke Lacrosse rape hoax, and the Tawana Brawley rape hoax, where 99.9% of the media and commentariat was wrong, and the innocent accused had their lives irreparably damaged? Don’t you think you and also the media should stop making assumptions and allowing bias to pollute the dialogue? Does it bother you when the media uses an old booking photo to portray Zimmerman and yet uses a smiling years-old images of Martin to portray him as a little boy (he was ~6’3″)? If not, it should. Everyone is entitled to an opinion but the trial by media here is a reprehensible affront to justice something that all Americans should be ashamed of.

    Again, I want justice to be done here but the lynch mob is out of control here, the $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman by the Black Panthers, the wanted dead or alive posters, and the death threats against Zimmerman which has caused him to leave his home. The Sanford Police Chief has received death threats against him and his whole family. Outrageous.

    This case needs to be thoroughly investigated (of course) and more information needs to be released. As it is right now I have not been convinced that the shooting was illegal (based on eyewitness accounts and physical evidence (e.g. bloody nose, screams for help, grass stains on back)) but that may change as more information is released.

    But just this last weekend in Chicago there were 10 shooting victims including a little 6 year old girl…. “Weekend of violence claims 10 shooting victims across Chicago:”

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-03-19/news/chi-chicago-weekend-shootings-killings-violence-crime_1_shooting-victims-south-winchester-avenue-west-rogers-park

  35. Let’s consider for a moment that Zimmerman is not categorized as “white”. How does that make him any less racist? How does it change the fact that a black man is still commonly profiled as a criminal? Or the fact that if the situation’s reversed, and it’s the black man holding the gun, it’s practically guaranteed that he’ll be sitting behind bars by now?

  36. “Let’s consider for a moment that Zimmerman is not categorized as “white”. How does that make him any less racist?”

    Correctly categorizing his race neither makes him not racist nor racist, it just gets the facts correct.

    “How does it change the fact that a black man is still commonly profiled as a criminal?”

    Are you referring to violent crime? As far as homicides go, Heather MacDonald of the Manhattan Institute reports that recent data shows black males age 14 to 24 commit homicides at a rate nearly 10 times higher than that of young white and Latino males combined.

    “Or the fact that if the situation’s reversed, and it’s the black man holding the gun, it’s practically guaranteed that he’ll be sitting behind bars by now?”

    Source?

  37. Fun9876- So you agree he’s racist, then.

    I wrote:
    “How does it change the fact that a black man is still commonly profiled as a criminal?”

    “Or the fact that if the situation’s reversed, and it’s the black man holding the gun, it’s practically guaranteed that he’ll be sitting behind bars by now?”

    You wrote:
    “Source?”

    Do you need me to connect the dots for you?

  38. Huh? Your logic does not make sense. Is English your first language? I don’t know what was going through Zimmerman’s mind, and neither do you, nor the media for that matter. If you are going to speculate you could also theoretically speculate that Martin thought that, given his reported history of drugs, and because Zimmerman looked Latino, perhaps Zimmerman belonged to some Latino drug gang, and Martin decided that he was going to make a move first, thinking that Zimmerman looked suspicious. The point of the thought exercise is that we don’t have any evidence regarding whether or not Zimmerman was racist, nor Martin for that matter either — at least at this point. A lot of the information has not been released to the public as of yet. We will just have to wait until more information is revealed.

  39. Fun9876- fair enough. Do you think Zimmerman should be place under arrest? I believe this is the other big part of the issue.

  40. ^
    I am not sure because I do not have all the information that the police currently has so I am not sure if probable cause can been established. It does not seem like a Zimmerman is a flight risk, but I don’t know. I am not familiar with Florida laws, specifically the “stand your ground” rights there. So I guess the short answer is I am not sure. But of course I do believe the case deserves a thorough investigation and I want justice to prevail, either way this case turns out. In the coming weeks and months there will be many new developments and new information will eventually be released to the public.

  41. @ Fun

    I completely agree that the $10,000 bounty is both illegal and disgraceful. That bounty was offered by a radical racial group and it should be denounced by all sane people. However, people who are holding non-violent demonstrations about the issue should also not be called a “mob.”

    Most people are not calling for Zimmerman’s death, but for his arrest, based on the weight of evidence and a clearly poor investigation by the Sanford Police Department. Once Zimmerman is arrested, he has every right to post bail and appear at trial to face his accusers. If he is found not guilty then he should be allowed to go free.

    BUT, he should be brought up on charges, at the least.

  42. @Hadoken

    I have no problem with them not arresting him yet if they are still gathering evidence.

    Arrest and bail are defacto punishment. Bail in most cases is too high (like the rent) . It is a subsidy to the bail bond industry and a tax on the poor and middle class. Most people are not a flight risk and most people who do fleee are easily caught.

    Zimmerman’s face has been everywhere and he is not a danger to the community (as he is holed away fearing for his own life). Let them build a case (assuming there is one) and then arrest him. A few weeks isn’t going mean justice is not being served.

  43. But they did not properly investigate. Drug testing was not done, procedures were followed only so far as they could close the case without bringing any charges.

    While we worry about hate crimes and vigilante justice and questions of race it distracts us from questions of how florida police handled the case and if they handled it in a way with which to sweep things under the carpet by failure to collect evidence in the limited frame of time they had, thus leaving many holes for reasonable doubt instead of narrowing things down.

    Let this be an instruction on how police forces and interested parties can collude to commit and then get away with murder.

  44. @eurasian. Not sure how this is trolling. That you would as usual choose the ‘doesnt matter what race the murder is because murder is bad’ card is typically PC, but then why is everyone making such a bigger deal out of it than normal?

    apart from the tragic case of this racial murder if it was a half latino and he was called for sake or argument, Rodriguez. would people really give as much of a crap?

    when it comes to stuff like this there is a invisible racial hierarchy that we are all sensitive to as to who we get murdered by, so does florida have a bigger german or jewish population?

    What is more important is that all ‘races’ should equally be acquitted of murder,
    and if trayvons murder was indeed half german-jewish, the records just need to be accurate.

    Pretending that he isnt if he actually is, is like i said the usual PC brigade who are scared of coming across as anti-semitic, when thats really not the issue here.

  45. It is becoming increasingly clear that this will be an uphill battle for the prosecution if they decide to press forward.

    It is also becoming clear that Trayvon was no angel. If Zimmerman’s (we now know that Zimmerman was a registered Democrat by the way, for what it’s worth) head was indeed being slammed into the concrete (if this is true) he could have easily had a concussion/head spit open and died, or suffered irreparable brain damage. The eyewitness’s report collaborates with Zimmerman’s version of the events, as indicated int he police report. If I had a weapon and if someone was slamming my head into concrete I will not hesitate to save my life.

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/trayvon-martin-shooting-details-emerge-facebook-twitter-accounts-180103647.html

    My prediction based on what I know *so far:* this case will slowly go away and the media will become quite about it. There may be a little walking back, like there was after the Duke rape hoax. There will be no arrest, and no trial (because the prosecution does not feel there is enough evidence to convict). But who knows maybe my opinion will shift as we know more.

    In contrast,
    Where was Jesse Jackson & Al Sharpton after this obvious hate crime occurred, where a 13 year old boy was doused with gasoline and set on fire for being White? Can you imagine the outcry if a 13 year old Black boy was doused with gasoline and set aflame because he happened to be Black?

    http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station

  46. fun678 why do you think zimmerman isnt jewish? Just protecting your own people even if they are murderers lol

  47. A six foot three and one hundred and forty pound seventeen year old flooring a guy like Zimmerman and then slamming his head against concrete?

    LIES.

    This is what happens when the police make the decision to not collect evidence or even to “disappear” it. Bullshit artists like Fun can then come up with all sorts of he says she says scenarios to obfuscate the cover up.

  48. I dont have a problem, Try empty your head of all racial hierarchies youve been fed and for the sake of debating the details of this racial murder incident, focus on racial accuracy.

  49. “A six foot three and one hundred and forty pound seventeen year old flooring a guy like Zimmerman and then slamming his head against concrete?”

    If true, it is certainly possible that a lean 6′ 3″ football player (reportedly weighing anywhere between 140-160 lbs) could stun and knock down an obese unathletic guy like Zimmerman and pound his head into the concrete. Anyone following MMA knows that just weighing more in-and-of-itself is not necessarily an advantage, at least if that extra weight is fat which reduces speed, strength, and stamina. Even if that extra weight was muscle it does not mean that the smaller guy can’t win.

    Here’s some open weight class fights where the smaller guy won:

    here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8sSK4k6WHw

    and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i0iZcLIrTQ

    From what I have read now that I have access to more info, evidence was collected, e.g. the gun. The prosecution has a very very tough case if they decide to proceed, based on what I know at this point.

  50. fun678 hasnt answered my question yet. Anyway seeing as we on the subject of random url evidence links heres something just as credible

    http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120325123411AALqrn1

    George Zimmerman’s father is a German Jew?
    George Zimmerman the man who murdered the black teenager is half Jewish. His mom is a Latino but his father is a German Jew. Many African-American people including the Black Panthers party feel like the reason he wasn’t charged is because of his father….

    2 days ago
    Report Abuse

    Additional Details
    Wait a minute, who said I’m taking sides here? I’m Jewish myself.

  51. @ Troll,

    If he has Jewish racial or religious ancestry I have no problem with it being revealed. I am not sure if he does or not.

  52. @ Trolldetector,

    If we were face to face right now I would grab you and SLAP you in the face.

    Don’t just cry out Jew this and Jew that. If you have a point to make then SPELL it out instead of leaving it oblique.

    I didn’t figure you out as a PUSSY, if you have a point then MAKE it until we get it you lousy bastard.

  53. @Raguel As I said in my above post if he is part German-Jewish then considering its a racial incident why arent the tabloids being racially accurate? Or is it being conveniently overlooked/unimportant? Why the angry asian male today, eh? And its not even an IR topic. Some people can be so ‘taliban’

  54. At least the troll somehow gave me a balanced reply for once, but you are just going ballistic for no apparent reason.

  55. TD:

    From what N posted, he’s not Jewish. So why do you constantly raise the Jewish issue?

    “Fun,”

    I don’t know what happened that night between Trayvon and George Zimmerman, but how does comparing a skinny 140 lb. boy to Fedor and Cro-Cop, two of the greatest HEAVYweight MMA fighters ever (Check their stats, and you’ll see both are slightly heavier than 140 lbs.), make a fitting comparison?

  56. ^
    I am not sure what happened exactly that night either. My point was that just because someone is bigger than someone else it does not automatically mean that that bigger person can subdue the smaller person, and, it does not mean that the smaller person cannot cause serious harm to the larger person, and essentially win the fight. In the videos I linked, Fedor and Cro-Cop, despite being MUCH MUCh smaller than their opponents still WON the fight. If it were a REAL fight that was not referred, Fedor and Cro-Cop could have theoretically killed their much much larger opponents.

  57. At 17 Trayvon is pretty much a man, and at 6’3” Zimmerman probably assumed he was an adult (just a reasonable guess).

    Fedor is 6′ 234 lbs and defeated Choi Hung-man, who is 7′ 2″ 304 lbs.
    Cro-Cop is 6’2″ 239 lbs and defeated Bob Sapp who is 6’5″ 342 lbs.

    All the MMA fighters described above are cut; Zimmerman is fat. Keep that in mind. In an actual street fight, if not stopped, Fedor or Crop-Cop could have likely killed their opponents if they so chose to, at least in the linked matches.

  58. Here is a fight between a 600 pound man and a 169 pound man, for a 431 pound weight differential. The smaller guy wins.

    Here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCMQtwIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D0VcEf-gugpg&ei=bX5yT-WdNYmCgAf3mL0u&usg=AFQjCNH3HEVgbGLxCsDuxtagCY4Di35NaA&sig2=4quCVP8-RF4S1Br0H_Twgw

    Here is a fight between the 5’11.5,” 420 lb. Butterbean and Patrick Smith, who is 6′ 2″ 225 lbs., so we have a 195 lb. weight difference. Smith wins. See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Haubt_b-EM

  59. @Fun9876

    This is not like Duke case as there was no violence there (no rape) here there clearly is a dead un armed teenager. There is a bit of a rush to judgement here I agree with that. Clearly though the local police messed up. They botched the investication. It is less likely that would have happened if Martin was not black kid. This being said it still could be Zimmerman did not break they law.

    It could be that Zimmerman started to follow a person who had NOT commited any crime. Maybe he did this because Martin was black. Having racial bias is NOT illegal. He should have backed off but he didn’t. Again this is not illegal. Maybe he confronted Martin and Zimmerman said inflamatory things (again not actually illegal) and Martin over reacted and did hit Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground and Zimmerman fearing for his life shot and killed him. Zimmerman can have a racial bias and get himself in a situation of his own making using bad judgment without actually doing something illegal.

    On the otherhand he could have over reacted and shot an unarmed teen. We don’t know all the facts, maybe never will. I can see how Zimmerman might escape punishment as he didn’t technically break the law.

    Also nothing matters in Martin’s background except physical violence. The weed stuff, suspention, whocares.

  60. @ Lingyai:
    “It could be that Zimmerman started to follow a person who had NOT commited any crime. Maybe he did this because Martin was black. Having racial bias is NOT illegal. He should have backed off but he didn’t. Again this is not illegal. Maybe he confronted Martin and Zimmerman said inflamatory things (again not actually illegal) and Martin over reacted and did hit Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground and Zimmerman fearing for his life shot and killed him. Zimmerman can have a racial bias and get himself in a situation of his own making using bad judgment without actually doing something illegal.”

    This sounds like a very realistic possibility. And if that is indeed what happened, and it’s not illegal, then it speaks to what is wrong with the Stand Your Ground law. In the scenario you posit, Zimmerman basically instigates everything, up until the point that he is attacked by Martin. Then, despite being full of bravery up until then, he is SUDDENLY overcome by fear of his own life, which apparently justifies using deadly force.

    Is this so different to walking up to someone in a bar, talking trash to them until they lose their shit and start swinging, then pulling out a gun in “self-defence”?

    My suggestion to Zimmerman would be: if you think this young black guy in a hoodie is dangerous, then don’t go doing anything that will provoke a confrontation.

  61. @ trolldetector:

    The reason we are “ignoring” Zimmerman’s potential Jewishness is:

    (a) it hasn’t been established that he’s actually Jewish. Zimmerman is a German, rather than a Jewish name, and he is described as being a Catholic.

    (b) if he was Jewish, would that change anything at all? It’s as I was saying above, whether or not he is Hispanic is not of great relevance either. What is relevant is that he potentially had a preconceived idea of young black males which led to the situation unfolding as it did.

    My question is: why do you wish to inject the issue of Jewishness into virtually every discussion that occurs on this blog? It seems to be rather trollish behaviour to me.

  62. Those are some very good points, Lingyai. If what he did was legal according to how the laws are written today, what will be the outcome? How will people feel? If it’s not illegal and instead is reflective of what is wrong with the law, then legally people will have to let it be and will only be able to change the law after the fact.

    In any case, as long as they make an arrest, the facts will come out. The prosecutor only has to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt,” so I’m guessing that Zimmerman is on the hot seat if an arrest is made. Much of it will be based on character and Zimmerman’s past, which I’m guessing will be admissible given the fact that Zimmerman accosted Trayvon.

    I just saw this article:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/homicide-detective-chris-serino-wanted-george-zimmerman-slapped-manslaughter-charges-shooting-death-trayvon-martin-article-1.1051848

    Didn’t realize it’s been 30 days. They ought to arrest him soon.

  63. Excellent, Fun’s comments prove that he is a nerd who has absolutely NEVER gotten into a fight before in his life. Now we know where all that obsession with racial superiority and inferiority comes from. It is a nerd war fought entirely in the quasi-intellectual realm. ROFLMAO

    @ Trolldetector,

    DONT TRY THAT PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE BULLSHIT with me, you are not a chick.
    Everytime you cry Jew this and Jew that you offer no explanations of why you are doing so and why your ass is on fire. You are attempting to discredit this blog by playing the role of a racial heckler.

  64. How predicable; Ragcuntel scurries about, STARTING shit with others, and gets”his” panties in a bunch when someone stands up to his punk ass or simply provides something contrasting his contorted world view. How sad and pathetic.

  65. “Fun,”

    I think the point was that you’ve never been in a fight or participated in any kind of combat sport. If you had, you wouldn’t be posting videos of heavyweights beating other heavyweights and then extrapololating it to non-fighters who would be featherweights.

    And yeah, Takase isn’t a heavyweight. But he was fighting Yarborough, who is fat and out of shape, and who got tired from walking around the ring. Yarborough couldn’t walk for four minutes without breaking a sweat. And Takase, of course, was one of the few guys ever to finish Anderson Silva, who is probably the best p4p UFC fighter ever.

  66. “big”WOWO wrote,

    “I think the point was that you’ve never been in a fight or participated in any kind of combat sport. If you had, you wouldn’t be posting videos of heavyweights beating other heavyweights and then extrapololating it to non-fighters who would be featherweights.”

    I actually have been in fights (and have seen them in person) and have been in sports, including combat sports. You are speculating. My point, to reiterate, in linking to the videos, is that sometimes in fights between relatively small opponents and much much larger opponents the MUCH MUCH SMALLER person can can SOMETIMES WIN, as proven in the videos. Size isn’t everything (just ask Raguel).

    Now, I don’t know precisely what happened in the Trayvon-Martin case but once again my point is that in a physical altercation between Trayvon and Martin Martin could conceivably win despite being much much smaller, particularly if an initial sucker punch was involved. We don’t know for sure. I think that Zimmerman was overzealous in his watch responsibilities and Martin had a reason to be angry at Zimmerman for being suspicious of him, even though burglaries were pandemic throughout the neighborhood; however, if Zimmerman’s account is correct this case will be tough to prosecute and is indeed a case of self-defense (if his account is indeed accurate); at least one eyewitness supports Zimmerman’s version of getting physically attacked by Martin, with Martin being on top attacking Zimmerman (dominate position). Surely more information will be revealed in the coming weeks and months if not days so that a clearer picture may be formed.

  67. When I wrote:

    “Now, I don’t know precisely what happened in the Trayvon-Martin case but once again my point is that in a physical altercation between Trayvon and Martin Martin could conceivably win despite being much much smaller, particularly if an initial sucker punch was involved”

    I meant to write Martin-Zimmerman case and when referring to a physical altercation I meant to write Martin and Zimmerman and not Trayvon and Martin.

  68. Honestly I think the issue of “who would win in a fight between Martin and Zimmerman” is not all that relevant. I’m no expert on fighting, but its obvious that this is not a MMA or boxing bout we are talking about between two trained fighters. Not everyone is used to taking a hit, and if someone gets one good punch in early, that may be enough to swing the fight their way.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if Trayvon attacked Zimmerman “first”, and thus may well have put him on the ground … but if he did, it would appear to be a result of anger and/or fear that Zimmerman was following him and out to do him harm.

  69. This is amusing, the troll, defending the trolldetector.

    @whoever

    Yes now that N clarified it with some random non-fabricated media clipping thats fine. Like i said before this is a racial murder so race -details are necessary IMO. If hes white then so be it. Anyway its yet another tragic case. One murdered at the hands of another . Not as bad as Danny Chen but who said murders were meant to be comparable. R.I.P. Trayvon Martin.

    That you people want to discuss MMA and who punched first is kinda sick and disrespectful IMO

  70. Eurasian,

    You’re right. It’s definitely possible for a smaller man to knock down a larger man in a streetfight as there are no rules. I know this, Raguel knows this, even though size is a big obstacle to overcome. Vincent Chin was winning the first fight against his attacker, even though Chin was smaller.

    But I still stand by what I said, and I still think it’s worth defending, because “Fun” is trying to portray Trayvon Martin as some kind of aggressive fighting machine like Fedor or Cro-Cop when there’s nothing to support that. You can’t use Fedor (heavyweight) vs. Hong Man Choi (another heavyweight) to prove a point about a little man fighting a big man. It’s a ridiculous comparison, unless one has no idea what a real fight is like.

  71. “But I still stand by what I said, and I still think it’s worth defending, because “Fun” is trying to portray Trayvon Martin as some kind of aggressive fighting machine like Fedor or Cro-Cop when there’s nothing to support that.”

    How have I created this perception? I am just pointing out that smaller guys can win fights and I think this is especially true if sucker punches are involved. I feel like I had to point this out because people are saying (or are at least implying) that Martin could not have knocked down and then smashed Zimmerman’s head into the concrete–all I am saying is that it is at least plausible given their respective differences in size and athleticism.

    In the Fedor and Cro-Cop vids I linked to each of those guys were fighting athletic guys that were MUCH LARGER than themselves. Choi Hung-man is about 70 lbs larger than Fedor and Bob Sapp is over 100 lbs bigger than Cro-Cop; yet, each got their asses handed to them.

  72. ^ HAHA! “How have I created this perception”!!! Fun is so stuck in a universe within his own mind he can no longer even relate to the real world!

    Oh my god, SHUT THE FUCK UP, you nerd. You have NEVER been in a real fight in your life. If you have, then you would know how underweight a boy would be at 6 foot 3 and 140 lbs.

    Your entire life experience with fights can be summed up with ardently watching sweating and half naked professional fighting men alternatively holding and then hitting each other.

    That’s why you can’t tell the difference between video entertainment and the capabilities of an underweight teenager accosted by a fully mature adult a hundred pounds heavier carrying a gun.

    FUCK YOU Gollum. Rush back to your smelly hole in shame.

  73. Raguel,

    Obviously he was big enough to play a contact sport like football. Anyways, go fuck yourself you fucking piece of shit. You can go crawl back into your hole and shut the fuck up you punk-ass bitch. I just reviewed this thread and once again it was you who are STARTING SHIT. So I guess that makes you an internet bully. You family should be ashamed of you; I bet your ancestors would be to.

    The thread was civil but then went downhill after you decided to START shit, as is typical of your behavior. It STARTED with your comment here:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2012/03/if-i-had-a-son-hed-look-like-trayvon/#comment-22084

    You are pathetic. It’s always the internet bullies who are the biggest cowards in real life. If we met in real life you would be running for the hills!

  74. Here’s an account from Trayvon’s father, who has talked with Zimmerman. Here we have more details from the other side. This will probably be pretty much exactly what Zimmerman will say:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyDFIbCZOjs&feature=youtu.be

    Of course, I don’t know if the above version is true or not, but having a more comprehensive account is interesting. There a lot of information out there scattered between multiple web pages, but the Daily Mail has done a pretty good job at tying in most of what is known in one single web page.

    See here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html

  75. “Obviously he was big enough to play a contact sport like football.”

    Really? Exactly what position did he play? Was he a linebacker? How much time did he actually play in each game? Was he on the team because of his size and power, or was he being used based on his speed and ability to catch passes?

    140 lbs. at 6′ 3″ is rail thin.

  76. Yes, apparently he was. I am not sure what position he played though or how much time he got.

    The most common photo of Zimmerman floating about is about 7 years old, but here’s a video of Zimmerman not long after the shooting.

    Here: http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3Ow_TES1SA

    No way that guy’s 250 lbs. No way! To me Zimmerman looks 185-190 lbs. I have read reports that Martin weighed 160 lbs. So maybe there was only a 25-30 lb. weight difference?

    People saying that Zimmerman wasn’t “arrested.” He was taken to the police station in handcuffs. You can see in the video police leading the handcuffed Zimmerman into a questioning room. It’s that’s not being arrested, I don’t know what is.

    In the video Zimmerman doesn’t look beaten up though, although it is low res. But here is a still of it, so perhaps this is the head injury?

    Here: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/

  77. ^ So Zimmerman was supposedly beaten up and had a gash on the back of his head and a bloody nose? Yet there are no bloodstains on his shirt or on the back of his head at all?

    Perhaps that story is completely false, along with the whole “head banging attack” allegation. If so, that would prove very difficult for the Zimmerman defense.

  78. Fun wrote:

    “People saying that Zimmerman wasn’t “arrested.” He was taken to the police station in handcuffs. You can see in the video police leading the handcuffed Zimmerman into a questioning room. It’s that’s not being arrested, I don’t know what is.

    Yeah, I agree…you don’t know what is. That’s called being questioned and released.

  79. Fun also wrote to Raguel:

    “If we met in real life you would be running for the hills!”

    This sounds a lot like Siggy threatening King with his green belt!

  80. King wrote,

    “So Zimmerman was supposedly beaten up and had a gash on the back of his head and a bloody nose? Yet there are no bloodstains on his shirt or on the back of his head at all?

    Perhaps that story is completely false, along with the whole “head banging attack” allegation. If so, that would prove very difficult for the Zimmerman defense.”

    Maybe, we do not know. Maybe it was all a lie?

    But this does look like a gash: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/

    I am not sure why the eyewitness would lie about Martin being on top of Zimmerman though.

    “big”WOWO wrote,

    “Yeah, I agree…you don’t know what is. That’s called being questioned and released.”

    If someone is questioned by cops is it typical to handcuff them first? Any law enforcement workers reading this who can provide information?

    There’s a lot about this case we don’t know yet.

  81. If you’re being detained and held for questioning, yes. If you’re party to an incident where a crime is suspected of having taken place (reasonable suspicion), and you are detained for questioning, you are hand cuffed. For officer safety reasons. Every department or law enforcement agency has a procedure for detaining people. You’ll most likely be patted down for any unlawful objects (weapons, drugs). You’ll be asked for identification and then your name will be run thru a criminal database to see if you have any prior criminal record, or if you’re a fugitive or if you have arrest warrants out for you. Again, officer safety comes first.

    They don’t know you, they don’t know what your reactions will be. They have no idea if you will be compliant one second and then try to reach for the officer’s gun. Law enforcement officials control their environment as best as they can to avoid having one of their officers or agents being killed with their own service weapons or a hidden one carried by the detainee. So they control you by handcuffing you.

  82. The focus on this case should be whether the police followed procedures and acted correctly in determining if a crime has been committed.

    But we know the police did not collect a lot of evidence, and did not verify a lot of testimony.

    So what has happened? What has happened is that interested parties and people with dogs in the fight have come up and jumped in with all sorts of speculation. There is no evidence now, so ANYBODY’S guess could be just as good.

    You see the worthless links that Fun9876 posted? Police video of Zimmerman may show head injury. MAY show head injury. Meaning that even with video you can’t tell for sure.

    This is one of the ways conspiracies to commit murder and get away with it are committed. Evidence is either not collected, destroyed, or tampered with so that nobody can say for sure any more, then the circus is invited in to speculate uselessly, even outlandishly, to send the subtext to the masses that anybody’s guess is just as good now, it just depends on what you want to believe. There is a story for everybody, there is a story for you too. You need never ask the harder and more difficult questions when it comes to this case. This case has now been packaged neatly to fit entirely within your needs and ability to understand.

    Fun9876’s moronic speculations convinces nobody about what may or may not have happened in the Trayvon Martin fatal shooting. However it certainly convinces us of his own condition: that of a shut-in coward who has never been involved in a fight outside of fantasy, never witnessed combat outside of television, certainly never played ANY sports because he doesn’t even know what 140 lbs on 6’3″ means.

    Gollum’s posting spree has shed more light on his own sad condition than this shooting tragedy. ROFLMAO

  83. Raguel you are a fool you STUPID FUCK. You are a pussy in real life trying being a bully online. Loser. Anyways, I am sure bigWOWO’s White readers like you throwing around the term “Gollum.” Moreover I am sure Eurasian Persuasion appreciates you using “Gollum” as a racial slur, especially considering his father was White. Raguel you are a disgraceful little cunt–how sad and pathetic you are.

    Anyways like I said it looks to me like Zimmerman is around 185-190 lbs. or so from the “detainment” video and not 250 lbs as has been reported by the media. I have also read that Martin was 160 lbs. So perhaps their was only a 25-30 lb. weight differential. Even if their was a 100 lbs. differential it does not mean Martin stood no chance. Bob Sapp has less body fat than Cro-Cop, was very athletic, and weighed over 100 lbs. more than him yet got his ass handed to him. There are 2, read 2, eyewitnesses saying that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

    Interesting reporting over here: http://glpiggy.net/

  84. Thanks, Mojo.

    “Fun”

    I’m happy that Mojo shared his knowledge, but even to a civilian, that should be basic common sense. Guy gets taken in after shooting and killing an unarmed boy, and they want to ask questions. You’re telling me that you’re suprised they handcuffed him?

    Stop using the c-word. It reveals too much about who you are. And stop comparing 6’3 140 lb. Trayvon to heavyweight fighting professionals. The ridiculousness of that comparison should also be common sense.

  85. HAHAHA!!! GOLLUM JUST OUTED HIMSELF YET AGAIN!

    Posted another link that that has ties to the white supremacist – HBD – PUA shithole blogroll! XD

    For your information, Gollum, that slur will never refer more to white people – not even a smidgeon – than it refers to a particular mental state that makes a man a pathetic, cowardly and craven creature.

    FUCK OFF back to your HBD-PUA holes and associates before you lose it and pull a Cho Seung Hui part two.

  86. “You’re telling me that you’re suprised they handcuffed him?”

    No, that’s not what I said. I was asking for an explanation. Take a closer reading.

    “And stop comparing 6’3 140 lb. Trayvon to heavyweight fighting professionals. The ridiculousness of that comparison should also be common sense.”

    The comparisons are to point out that smaller guys can beat down much much bigger guys and win fights (as I have said). But you should know this.

  87. “big”WOWO,

    You are a small guy (I have seen your publicly posted pictures). Are you saying that you cannot beat up people larger than yourself? If true that’s okay but speak for yourself, man.

    Raguel,

    Fuck off you stupid loser nerd.

  88. Fun:

    “No, that’s not what I said. I was asking for an explanation. Take a closer reading.”

    Why were you asking for an explanation? That’s your lack of common sense asking. I already knew what happens (because I know people who have been questioned), but it’s not just ignorance on your part; it’s lack of common sense, combined with ignorance.

  89. Fun9876 aka Gollum aka Cho Seung Hui lives entirely in a universe within his own mind. He should be euthanised according to his own rules.

  90. Also, I’m trying to correct your logic on comparing Trayvon to a heavyweight professional MMA fighter. This too is a problem with you not using common sense.

    Look, we’ve been through this before, and I know you’re always going to be sticking it to the guy who happens to be black (or happen to see the black guy as guilty or less than the non-black guy). I get it. But you still have lots of room to up your game.

  91. Stop humiliating yourself like this, Gollum. How did you turn from a respected HBD blogger into just a clown?

    LMAO

  92. bigWOWO,

    My logic is simple: the small guy can defeat a larger man, whether in MMA or a real life fight with no rules. To say that is not illogical.

    Regarding my question pertaining to the detention, asking about nuances surrounding it does not indicate a lack of “common sense.”

    Contrary to your opinion, I am not trying to stick it to the Black guy. If you reread my comments on this thread I repeatedly say that I am withholding judgement, am waiting for more facts to come out, and I provide some evidence from the “Trayton side,” so to speak. I did however say that the defense has an uphill battle, and indeed the defense does as at least two eyewitness are saying stuff that backs up Zimmerman.

    Oh, and Raguel, fuck you once again you piece of shit.

  93. Nice try Gollum, you posted MMA videos of professional fighters to make the point that Trayvon could have done the same thing.

    Did you know how stupid you looked when you did that? I bet you never even guessed. :D

  94. I come back I see another flame war between Fun and Raguel (I think, pretty sure I seen this before). If my memory is correct. I seen this before. I think this like the 2nd or 3rd time I write a post asking to write based on logic and not insults. I get a response from Raguel saying that sometimes the only reasonable response is mockery.

    No.

    Stop this bullshit. I read Fun and I can see that he trying to use logic, reasoning and evidence. I can read the logic of using MMA fighters as a way to show a lighter fighter can beat a heavier one. I don’t see where he is claiming Trayvon can use those moves. One can retort the analogy could be a stretch or maybe an argument that only trained fighters can pull it off. Shooting back with insults calling nerds and Gollum (whatever that means) is not.

    I expect civil responses and rebuttals.

    Oh and if you’re wondering why I’m address more to you Raguel than to Fun who is lowering to insults too, it because you started the insults first from what I can tell. Fun civilly links to an MMA vid and the response was not “I don’t see how MMA can fit to this fight” but calling him a nerd which after that the thread started to swirl in the toilet. I think I saw the same pattern in other comment threads. Actions like that only makes me sympathetic to Fun and make it that much harder to consider the content with just logic and evidence. There was no need to do that then and there’s still no need for that now.

  95. But this does look like a gash:”

    http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/

    Fun, allow me to acquaint you with the rigors of basic and common logic. The natural crease/fold in Zimmerman’s bald head (as shown above in your link) would be at least 4 inches if were an open gash. A four-inch gash would require quite a few stitches and the police would have taken Zimmerman directly to the hospital in such a case. Even if Zimmerman had acquired a very small puncture that was bleeding, the wound would have, of necessity, been cleaned and dressed with a bandage. There is no way that Zimmerman is walking into a police station, handcuffed with a 4 inch cut on top of his head that was just wiped off with a damp towel in the back of the squad car. A 4-inch wound in the head is a BIG BLEEDER. It would take quite some time to stop the bleeding from such a wound and the blood would have clearly run profusely down the back of his neck and onto his clothing. A broken nose would have immediately gushed blood down the front of his clothing.

    IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIS SHIRT NOT TO BE COVERED WITH BLOOD STAINS (WET OR DRY).

    This is all quite obvious, and at about a 7th or 8th grade level of deductive reasoning, which means that the people who you are reading and getting your information from are stupid in the “low-intelligence” sense of the word. They are consummate “dummies” who can’t even reason out a simple and obvious problem. And if you would avoid becoming a dummy yourself, I would advise you to stop reading them immediately.

  96. Dreamer,

    Thanks for the comment.

    Raguel is an internet bully, hence, he *starts* fights on threads. Usually these internet bully types are the biggest cowards in person.

  97. “King” wrote,

    “They are consummate ‘dummies’ who can’t even reason out a simple and obvious problem. And if you would avoid becoming a dummy yourself, I would advise you to stop reading them immediately.”

    I am afraid that it is you who is being the dummy and not me. Much of my information comes from the actual Sanford Police report, which I am guessing you have not bothered to read. Police officers, despite any bias you may have, are typically not “dummies.”

    Sanford Police report: http://www.propublica.org/documents/item/327370-trayvon-martin-police-report

    The police report indicates that Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head. At the scene of the incident Zimmerman received first aid from the Sanford Fire Department paramedics. We will know more in the coming days, including more about what could be an injury on the back of Zimmerman’s head.

  98. Yes Fun, surely if it’s in the Sacred Police Report than you can’t believe you’re own eyes.

    Yes, I’ve read the police report and it’s obviously not consistent with the facts on the Police Surveillance Video… You see, that’s why they’re having a Federal Investigation— you might have heard something of it?

    So, back to you being the gullible and infantile dummy. Stop believing everything that’s written in every police report and realize that policemen lie too sometimes (shocking I know!)

    That alone should raise your intelligence a couple of points.

  99. “Yes, I’ve read the police report and it’s obviously not consistent with the facts on the Police Surveillance Video… You see, that’s why they’re having a Federal Investigation— you might have heard something of it?”

    I don’t think we have enough information, “King.” I think we will have to hear from the paramedics who attended to Zimmerman.

    “So, back to you being the gullible and infantile dummy. Stop believing everything that’s written in every police report and realize that policemen lie too sometimes (shocking I know!)”

    I don’t believe everything that is written in every police report. Indeed, they could be part of a conspiracy for all I know (however unlikely). But if there was a conspiracy it would have to involve multiple police officers and paramedics. Again, it appears that you are being the dummy here if you think it’s probable that the police and paramedics engaged in some sort of conspiracy (I don’t think it’s impossible just not probable).

    Regardless, this is a tragedy. Whichever direction this case goes I hope the truth comes out so ultimately justice can be served; I hope you agree with me at least in that regard, “King.”

  100. Dreamer:
    You wrote:
    “I read Fun and I can see that he trying to use logic, reasoning and evidence.”

    He’s either not trying very hard, or he’s not succeeding.

    We’ve been through this before. MMA (the heavyweights, especially) have nothing to do with this. No one here ever said that a smaller man can’t ever win against a larger man, but to bring Fedor into the discussion as a means of showing what Trayvon could’ve done…let’s just say the speaker would have to mentally trivialize the death of a young black man in order to use that analogy. Not only is it a bad analogy since it’s a sport, but it’s also a bad analogy given the kind of people we’re talking about.

    You can be as sympathetic to “Fun” as you like. But I think you can also see why others here find him annoying when he says things that are just lacking in any kind of common sense.

  101. ^ Was he treated by paramedics? Proof? If so then how did they fail to put a bandage on the apparent 4 inch “laceration” which you cut and pasted from a gaggle-of-dummies website that you were so recently pointing out? If a bandage or even a Band-Aid wasn’t needed, then how could it have been a serious (or even life threatening) wound?

    Again, this basic logic 101. Are you really this obtuse?

  102. Dreamer,

    See King’s comment above. You see, this is the issue.

    Fun:

    1. Never been in a fight or seen a fight (after grade school), so says ignorant things about streetfighting.
    2. Never been in an ER and seen real-life injuries, so says ignorant things about injuries and lacerations
    3. Doesn’t know anyone who has ever been picked up and questioned, so says ignorant things about police procedures
    4. Never served in court, so is unfamiliar with police reports and how things often happen

    Now there’s nothing wrong with being ignorant. But ignorant nice people usually admit that they don’t know rather than asserting what they don’t know as fact. That’s the issue.

  103. “big”WOWO wrote,

    “No one here ever said that a smaller man can’t ever win against a larger man, but to bring Fedor into the discussion as a means of showing what Trayvon could’ve done”

    I keep telling you that my whole point was to point out that a smaller man can win against a bigger man. And I was trying to get that point across because people were INDEED SAYING THAT it was not possible, or at least implying it, whether right here in this thread or on other sites. I was not saying or implying that Trayvon had Fedor’s skills and I keep telling you the point that I was trying to get across but you refuse to listen.

  104. King wrote:

    ” Was he treated by paramedics? Proof?”

    The only proof that I know of is the police report. I thought you said you read the police report?

    Look, “King,” I am not a doctor and neither are you. We need more information.

  105. “big”WOWO wrote,

    “Fun:

    1. Never been in a fight or seen a fight (after grade school), so says ignorant things about streetfighting.
    2. Never been in an ER and seen real-life injuries, so says ignorant things about injuries and lacerations”

    You are speculating. Number 1 and 2 are both wrong.

    “3. Doesn’t know anyone who has ever been picked up and questioned, so says ignorant things about police procedures”

    I will admit that I have never been picked up by police (maybe you have?) but I do know people who were and were also questioned, but, by that same token, I will not say that know all the nuances of the legal system; admittedly, I don’t, and that’s why I am looking into this.

    “4. Never served in court, so is unfamiliar with police reports and how things often happen”

    Well, when I was 19 I got an underage drinking ticket (11 years ago) and had to go to court. It’s true that I do not have a lot of court experience.

    “Now there’s nothing wrong with being ignorant. But ignorant nice people usually admit that they don’t know rather than asserting what they don’t know as fact. That’s the issue.”

    It seems like you are the ignorant one “big”WOWO since no matter how many times I try to explain certain things and the point I was making (e.g. the MMA analogy) you just don’t seem willing to listen and understand. Moreover, you speculate as you know me whereas you don’t.

  106. “The only proof that I know of is the police report. I thought you said you read the police report?”

    Reading the police report is a far cry from believing it, in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary. A police report (in and of itself) is not PROOF. That is what you are missing.

  107. In regards to Zimmerman’s race:
    Well by now we should be all aware that Hispanic is not a race but is referred to as a general ethnic group. His race (in my opinion) doesn’t really matter but the lack of protocol being followed by the police does. But if you feel like you wan to beat the dead horse more….I had a Peruvian professor who talked about her culture and family the need to “retain or restore honor” or “cleansing” (I’m not sure of the exact words). In short she said that in her family and culture there is urge/desire/quest to look more European and marry the light skinned person or white person. So I wouldn’t be surprised if Zimmerman identified himself as white rather than Hispanic.
    But really this shouldn’t be taken into account since racial profiling is not something that only white people do and only blacks are victims to.

    Regarding evidence
    As someone who is studying psychology I wonder about the memory and perception (visual) of the witnesses. Working memory is only about (on average) 7 seconds. Short term memory which mostly like what witness’s will be working off of is storage of memories usually bounded my the senses and can last longer if active recital is implied. But at the same time every time a memory is recalled it changes. I say all of this to say is that witness’s reports that were not taken down at the time of incident could have altered by various elements (emotions, media, etc). This means that the 911 tapes are really the most reliable because they are real time reactions and descriptions.

    A great video, I think it’s the entire episode, of NatGeo’s Brain Games: Memory is below. A scenario were witness must recount and ID a suspect for fake trial is set up. It shows just how malleable a person’s memory can be.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY8kEmKrBJc

    And here is the test your memory segment: which goes directly to the scenario
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFDwEVsZ-oc&feature=related

    And here is ‘trial’ and what the participants could remember after days (?) (fw 2min)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kqxEVntYyQ

    Regards to Zimmerman’s bodily woes
    Basing my observations off of videos of Zimmerman arriving at the police station and 911 calls and an interview with Zimmerman’s lawyer on Anderson Copper 360 or Pierce Morgan (one of them). I have reasons to believe that Zimmerman was not terribly injured. His lawyer said that he had a cut on his head that required a few stitches and another cut (really a scratch) that was not given any particular attention because it had already started healing. Zimmerman stated that his nose was broken and head was bleeding (these areas can be pretty bloody from what I’m told) yet in the video of him arriving to the police station he does not appear to gushing blood or that he ever did. He seemed calm or overwhelmed (this is just noting him leaning against the wall). He was treat at the scene I believe.

    There’s more I wanted to mentioned but it’s getting late.

    I am a bit suspicious of witnesses’ and their ability to recall accurately especially when taking in consideration an average human’s ability to remember and also perception (that’s for another post)

    I hope there is a trial before whatever evidence that was collect goes ‘missing’ or is ‘tampered with’.

  108. I’m curious where did this Trayvon’s height and weight information come from.

    My son is only 13 yeas old, 5’10, but he is already weight about 150lb. he is not fat or muscular at all, median BMI for his age.

    There was a 14 year old African American football player in my son’s football league last year. The boy was only about 5’6 to 5’7, but he was already over 155lb weight limit. I once asked coach that the boy didn’t look fat or big, how could he was that heavy. The coach said that he had all muscle on him.

    There was a Caucasian boy on my son’s basketball team this year. He is my son’s height, 5’10, but he is very skinny, about 130lb. he was pushed around all the time, looked really weak on the court.

    So, if Trayvon’s is really 6’3 and 140lb, he will be extremely skinny, specially for a Black kids and for his age, no way he can pin Zimmerman on the ground that easily, And I doubt he can play football at all, it will be too dangerous for him. The 17 years old running back in our town’s high school varsity football team is only 5’8, but he weights 205lb.

    6’3 140 lb.

  109. @ N Ha!

    @Chinese Mom

    “So, if Trayvon’s is really 6’3 and 140lb, he will be extremely skinny, specially for a Black kids and for his age, no way he can pin Zimmerman on the ground that easily, And I doubt he can play football at all, it will be too dangerous for him. “

    Indeed. Well the White Supremacy websites keep pointing out that the photos of Trayvon are several years old. Yet the fact that he appears in a football uniform in them is used as a fallacious argument that he could have beaten up a man who outweighed him by over 100 lbs. Yet if the photos are several years old, and he now only weighs 140 lbs at 6′ 3, then what’s to say that he’s still playing football today? ANSWER: Nothing at all has indicated that! It’s just another missed step in logic by the gaggle-of-dummies trying to argue away the case based on their minimal brain power.

  110. @King,

    You are right. A lot of the facts need to be carefully examined.

    A smaller man may win against a bigger man if he has muscles and skills, but not a walking skeleton.

  111. I also know very few teenagers who can beat up mature adults a few years older than them, what more ten years older. At seventeen you’re not yet even at the apex of your growth spurt yet. This shooting is a tragedy, but white monkeys like Fun9876 are gleefully clapping their hands and smearing feces on themselves with joy in some sort of debased, sub-human ritual.

  112. Correction: Fun9876 is that clown Asian of Reason who got owned in Byron’s podcast. His playmates in the HBD-PUA blogroll are the monkeys.

  113. Yes Raguel, call Fun a monkey smearing feces on himself in joy in some sort of debased, sub-human ritual. That will null and void everything he said.

    C’mon Raguel, do you really think that’s how one demonstrate who’s right? I don’t care if you think everything he said is plainly and obviously absurd, pointing what you see is undeniably wrong is a million times more convincing and understand than your flames.

  114. LMAO!

    Fun9876/AOR is the older brother, Dreamer is the younger.

    Usually when the younger brother is threatened, the older brother will step in and defend him with overwhelming force. But the younger brother, being smaller and weaker, can himself only offer unconditional moral support.

    I am touched by this demonstration of brotherly love. :D

  115. Great, defending Fun means mockery to me now. Listen man, I only ask for civility and intelligent discourse. I think you seen me post around enough to know I’m not a single dimensional poster.

  116. You mostly only pop up to defend Fun/AOR and HBD from the fallout resulting from their devious argumentation, you are never actually around when these same debates are taking place.

    Even if you are, you turn a blind eye to the many examples of logical abuse Fun/AOR has committed. ROFL, hey man!

    If you REALLY want to look like an impartial party, then you’ll actually have to BE impartial and call out Fun/AOR on his sophism. :D

  117. I don’t come around enough to post during the debates. I don’t know how you guys find so much time. Right now, I’m at work right now and my I finished my lunch and I should go back to work. My memory says the last time I was in the during a full-on debate posting, that took a huge chunk of that weekend and I think I was still a student so I obviously was more flexible.

    I don’t call out on Fun/AOR (and I’m still viewing them as separate entities until proven otherwise) as much because of three reasons because I honestly don’t see as many issues of what they said. That’s part of why I want to see your reasons rather than say “It’s obvious” because many of the time, it’s not always for me. Some of the time I do see the logical abuse from Fun as a valid point, but your flaming that no one else seems to take issue bothers me much greater. You calling Fun a nerd and a shit-pasting monkey is much more visible, irritating, and unproductive than noting the citation of the police report, which King civilly retorted on its trustworthiness and I think you can too. So my post focus more on that.

  118. What I’d really like to see is the Sanford police being formally investigated for the way they handled the case, and if there was any negligence or worse, collusion.

    There’s no use arresting someone and going ahead with a trial if the prosecutors don’t have anything to work with due to disappeared or uncollected evidence.

  119. What is the update on this case? The Wiki article seems fairly balanced to me.

  120. Pingback: Guns for self defense, and how much firepower should be legal? | bigWOWO

  121. Anyone watching the trial? I have tuned in a bit when I had time. There is still a long way to go but from first 2 days I would say manslaughter (which I believe they can consider) is more likely than murder so far. That being said. There are a couple weeks to go I am sure.

  122. I think it’s ridic the comments I’m seeing about the big black girl being “illiterate.” What does her being “illiterate” have anything to do with the case? Did he or did he not shoot Trayvon?

    Guilty, hang em high!

  123. I haven’t been watching it, but in the end, I don’t see how he won’t get off. Even if Zimmerman totally ignored police advice, even if he wasn’t in danger, if he THOUGHT he was in danger, it seems that Florida’s Stand Your Ground was written just for civilians like him who like to walk around with guns.

  124. Even if Florida did not have Stand Your Ground laws Zimmerman may have good legal footing under traditional laws of self-defense.

    According to Wikipedia: “In the United States, a civilian may legally use deadly force when it is considered justifiable homicide, that is to say when the civilian feels that their own life, the lives of their family, or those around them are in legitimate and imminent danger.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadly_force

  125. TheBlah,

    Traditional self-defense is not easy to invoke (despite what TV shows and movies say), especially when the one claiming SD was the instigator as Zimmerman appears to have been. Many criminal codes require victims to voluntarily give up wallets/phones/whatever if confronted by a robber in order to avoid conflict, or to retreat whenever it is possible. That’s why the Stand Your Ground law is so radical and stupid.

  126. Stand Your Ground law aside, if Zimmerman’s head was indeed being slammed into the concrete while pinned a jury might side with him if he said he thought his life was in immediate danger & he was not able to retreat.

  127. If Martin was alive, maybe he could have been prosecuted for some sort of hate crime? Was this a gay bashing? And/or were his actions possibly racially motivated? According to Rachel Jeantel Martin called Zimmerman the C-word before the altercation.

  128. If you are correct bigWOWO, and the verdict is non-guilty, do you think their will be violence? Riots perhaps? And who will have blood on their hands. The media?

  129. I don’t think there will be violence. It’s a little less cut-and-dry than the Rodney King case, and the issue should be bad gun laws, rather than race. I actually think this case is less about race than people think, and I hope that comes out during the trial.

  130. @the blah “Martin called Zimmerman the C-word before the altercation.”
    Really the c-word, you mean cracker… like it some word that has been used to oppress white people for years and years. To try to make cracker the same as the N word is a joke. I do think people should avoid using race based words like cracker but it clearly is not anywhere near the same.

    You forgot to mention he called him a “creepy ass cracker” notice the word creepy, which would indicated Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon.

    GZ said he reached for his phone and TM hit him. Maybe TM was in fear that GZ was pulling his gun, so TM did hit him IN SELF DEFENCE. If you are unarmed and someone is following you in the dark and then looks to be pulling a gun then you have a right to beat them right. Then you see they have gun, why would you let them up? You would neutralize the situation. Try to grab the stalkers gun before he does.

    The Blah, would you defend TM if he had shot and killed GZ? I doubt it.

    I think GZ did follow TM, did antagonize him and made the situation worse. GZ seems to have enhanced his story. His claim about not following TM is unlikely.
    This being said. If he is acquitted it is understandable. There seems to be no overwhelming evidence and hence there is reasonable doubt.

    This is not like Rodney King at all.

  131. TheBlah,

    You lose your right to self-defense if you instigate the fight. Zimmerman was the one who went after Trayvon Martin after being told by the police to just stand aside.

  132. “You lose your right to self-defense if you instigate the fight.”

    Actually that is not true.

    “Zimmerman was the one who went after Trayvon Martin after being told by the police to just stand aside.”

    It is not illegal to follow someone. The 911 dispatcher said, “we don’t need you to do that,” after Zimmerman said he was following Martin. The operative word is “need.” That sentence is not a command telling him not to follow.

  133. TheBlah,

    The Model Penal Code, which many states have used as the foundation for their criminal codes, would suggest otherwise.

  134. @The Blah

    You didn’t respond, do you support Trayvon’s right to use deadly force to protect himself? If he shot and killed GZ because he saw he had a gun and grabbed it and killed GZ because he was in fear for his life?

  135. @Lingyai,

    Under your hypothetical above, maybe. I would need more information. I always support people’s right to use self-defense. If you want to provide detailed description of your hypothetical I will be in a better position to respond.

  136. Am I the only one who felt like the Medical Examiner didn’t want to be there? I only caught the cross-examination part.

  137. @ The Blah
    I thought what I wrote was detailed?
    “You forgot to mention he called him a “creepy ass cracker” notice the word creepy, which would indicated Zimmerman was stalking Trayvon.
    I wrote:
    “GZ said he reached for his phone and TM hit him. Maybe TM was in fear that GZ was pulling his gun, so TM did hit him IN SELF DEFENCE. If you are unarmed and someone is following you in the dark and then looks to be pulling a gun then you have a right to beat them right. Then you see they have gun, why would you let them up? You would neutralize the situation. Try to grab the stalkers gun before he does.”

    @annasuki
    It didn’t seem like testified in many trials. The prosecutor seems to have done a poor job prepping the witnesses.

  138. Lingyai,

    In your hypothetical scenario, if Martin feared grave injury or death he would be justified in using deadly force.

  139. Zimmerman acquitted. The biggest load of bull chit ever. This guy kills a kid and the court says its ‘OK’.

  140. Things really haven’t changed since Rodney King or Vincent Chin, have they?

    I feel like the best thing I can do at this moment is go watch “Fruitvale Station”. Maybe a young Black director will make a movie about Trayvon Martin soon.

  141. While I have argued against people who say Trayvon was a thug and GZ did everything right, I can see why this verdict was reached. Not saying I agree. The problem was despite all the witnesses not really saw anything. Really nobody saw it. This is sorta like Casey Anthony, we think she did it, but maybe there is not enough proof to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

  142. If you still think the USA is run by principle, you are seriously mistaken.

    Anyways, fuck George Zimmerman. And I saw Trayvon Martin supporters burning American flags on the news. Anyone who burns a US flag is a friend of mine.

  143. That’s what happens when you serve the Empire. Yeah Danny Chen was the most sick fucking coverup ever. Fucking America…, my country tis of thee — bullshit.

  144. I don’t know if there are many AAs out there who side with TM after the Zimmerman verdict. Someone, please elaborate!

  145. Yoshihiro Hattori (服部 剛丈 Hattori Yoshihiro, November 22, 1975 – October 17, 1992) was a Japanese exchange student residing in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, United States at the time of his death. Hattori was on his way to a Halloween party and went to the wrong house by accident. The property owner, Rodney Peairs, shot and killed Hattori, thinking he was trespassing with criminal intent. The controversial homicide, and Peairs’s subsequent acquittal in the state court of Louisiana, received worldwide attention.

    Suspicions of implicit racism in the acquittal of Peairs further gained traction when, shortly afterwards, a homeowner named Todd Vriesenga, inside his house in Grand Haven, Michigan, similarly shot and killed a 17-year-old named Adam Provencal through the front door. Vriesenga received a 16- to 24-month term for “reckless use of a firearm resulting in death”, causing both Japanese and Asian-American advocacy groups to speculate on whether the difference between Vriesenga’s conviction and Peairs’s acquittal was related to the race of the victims. Other groups publicly stated that Vriesenga should have been convicted of the more severe charge of felony manslaughter.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori

  146. Pat

    Also just found this from goldsea

    ‘ The killing of 16-year-old Yoshi Hattori resulted only in an apology and a promise from Pears that he would never again use a gun. ‘

    Historical cases of murder, all unresolved or ‘ongoing’ should get categorised , filed away and when ( if ever) Asians get some political strength, open the book and start making demands.

    The deck is stacked , but that doesnt prevent the stories from being filed away ashistorical notes, because this is what makes modern history, not only the typical immigration stories. African Americans were lucky enough to have a leader ( or two) to fight for theirs, Asians maybe just need to bide their time

  147. Very few Asian Americans remember Danny Chen’s and Harry Lew’s deaths by now, what more have the intention of uncovering the conspiracies to cover up murder. Most of them are too busy trying to suck manna dry from Uncle Sam’s warty teats.

  148. Yep, and don’t forget Mark Wahlberg the asshole ripped some viet guy’s eye out.

    Can we please just stop re-stating how unfair this society is — and just accept that this society is bullshit?? Trust me, it will free you.

  149. IndieKing,

    Linsanity wasn’t just about basketball, though. It was almost like vindication for every Asian person who’s ever been overlooked due to racial stereotypes in whatever they did.

    Yes, we Asian Americans need to be more politically aware. But I don’t think you can fault Asian Americans for choosing to celebrate (finally) rather than protest.

  150. On a somewhat related note, I wonder if this guy’s gonna get off scot-free too: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-04-09/story/michael-dunn-remains-adamant-police-interview-after-killing-jordan-davis

    At least Trayvon Martin BOUGHT the Skittles that ultimately led to his (apparently justified, according to Florida and a certain group of aggrieved white folks) demise. There was the performance of at least some action. This kid was just listening to music.

  151. Like many other incidents before it (Rodney King, Vincent Chin, Oscar Grant, Ramarley Graham, Sean Bell, the Central Park 5, etc. ), this verdict in the killing of Trayvon Martin is just another example of the American criminal INjustice system in action.

    As Chuck D. tweeted: “MichaelVick went to prison for killing dogs, Zimmerman was let free after killing a blackman. All we need to know about the USA justice system.”

    Despite its propaganda boasting about being the “Leader of the Free World” and “Beacon of Liberty,” the American Empire has no clothes.

  152. @Eric,

    I, including some others here, would appreciate your thoughts on western hegemony and ripple effects of it. Either I agree or not does not concern here. But are you doing Doppelgänger effect? Everybody who’s been here quite a while knows that. Although you brought up some valid points, but by staying on course would make your suggestion and alternatives more legitimate in provoking some serious thinking.

  153. hmm, what doppelganger effect? Yes, I know that some language I have been using may have diluted some VERY LEGITIMATE points, but I come here for cathartic expression as much as promoting a message.

    Honestly, part of me believes in the validity of this message so much, even wayward language cannot change the fact that there is possibility of a better life, or at least a better cultural and social stance for us as Asian Americans. Whether we decide to become expats or not, Asian Americans connecting ourselves to our culture, and enhancing these societies — is far better than the whitewashed, empty, assimilated road-to-nowhere.

  154. Bint, even though I am an ABC, I am on your side. I will work with you, and am willing to hurt America if it is possible, and necessary.

  155. There should be two things to celebrate on national Asian day

    1. / remember those whose deaths were forgotten/brushed under the carpet
    2/ celebrate the achievements of Asians

    one single day in a 365 day year. where is it?

  156. “Bint, even though I am an ABC, I am on your side. I will work with you, and am willing to hurt America if it is possible, and necessary.”

    This kind of talk, puts you and the entirety of this blog squarely within the sights of Prism, Echelon or whatever mass surveillance program intelligence communities the world over have. It puts the entire blog into the attention of FBI snitches and agent provocateurs who have shitty jobs, absolutely no great purpose in life except an endless cycle of banality, and who have dubious professional and personal standards.

    When you say “hurt America”, what exactly do you mean?

    When I make crude jabs about white people and Unker Sam, I am not preparing myself or anybody to commit atrocities against the life, well-being or prosperity of white people or Americans.

    The real objective is to foster psychological resistance, to draw a hard line from where hopefully people do not fall back, in an overall environment where our kind prefers being agreeable and eating up everything that is fed to them.

    However the true objective is a fairer and more humane treatment of Asians. These means that Asians in the West must be accepted – COMPLETELY – as vital parts of the societies they grew up in or migrated to, they must have the same opportunities, the same rights, the same justice that the Western ideal upholds for itself, and that Asians in the East must have their rights, imperatives and prerogatives fully accepted as legitimate rather than have these constantly being imposed by some misguided and self-serving concept of American “exceptionalism”. (I blame this cultural exceptionalism for every modern ill such as factory produced Korean boy bands that look like faggots even though they are not.)

    So perhaps the goal is not to “destroy America” but to fight for the rights of Asians, whether its of social esteem, humane perception, economic opportunities, social justice, LEGAL justice, or whatever, even if this means being more uncompromising and less friendly. However, the goals must be clear.

  157. Yes. Idiotic to make statements like hurt America not only because sites like these are monitored but you’ve taken advantage of the many good things the US has offered and still offering you that you take for granted. As I have said, it’s one thing to say there are problems (all minorities in any country in the world face problems, if not much worse in other countries) another to make it sound like this place is a living hell which it is far from being.

  158. The goal should be to curtail Western influence and power. Perhaps not destroy America, but obviously hinder it in every realistic and lawful way possible. Suffice?

  159. @Raguel — when will that happen? The point is that change should also be pushed externally — America does not abide any longer by principle of fairness. It shed its ideals to fight for its unfair disparity and stranglehold over the world.

  160. Moroboshi, you are nothing more than a self-critical contrarian. You offer no solutions, just the same old tired, parroted bullshit — that has been repeated and repeated for decades.

  161. @Raguel

    “The real objective is to foster psychological resistance, to draw a hard line from where hopefully people do not fall back, in an overall environment where our kind prefers being agreeable and eating up everything that is fed to them.”

    Add: connect oneself to ethnic country of origin, and I agree. When I say ‘hurt America’, I only mean siphon away from it. I’m sure America has enough violent enemies to deal with.

  162. To curtail Western influence and power as an ultimate goal is very myopic, to me. Would you be happy to know that there are elite circles in Asia that have adopted the worst of Western anti-human ideals and formed them into coherent socio-political philosophies with long reach and even longer history?

    Besides, you will not curtail “western influence and power” by posting any number of articles on any number of websites with limited readership.

    I can only suspect that you have thought about these matters but have put nothing into action.

  163. I cannot be responsible for creating and fostering a macro-level movement. I am only here to share what I have identified as the source of the problem, and possible feasible solutions. Unfortunately, the most feasible solution is to act against Western hegemony, but obviously this is not an easy task.

    Since I first posted, not a single person has been able to refute what I have identified as the source of the IR disparity. Like Byron stated in similar fashion… not one.

    Im here to share ideas on ways to do this. Tell you this though, if I do contribute to form a networking group, the platform will be benign, proactive, and espousing only pro-social ideas. This idea of connecting yourself to your ethnic homeland does not require itself to be very visible to succeed.

  164. neither visible, nor extremely conspiratorial either. Like I stated before, that language is only coming from my own hatred. But the concept is pure.

  165. “Since I first posted, not a single person has been able to refute what I have identified as the source of the IR disparity.”

    You will be happy to know, I expounded on that idea in not so many words a year or two ago in this very blog but with not much fanfare or recognition.

    People are putting two and two together. Only the most ignorant of denialists stridently maintain their bubble of happy ignorance.

    “Tell you this though, if I do contribute to form a networking group, the platform will be benign, proactive, and espousing only pro-social ideas. This idea of connecting yourself to your ethnic homeland does not require itself to be very visible to succeed.”

    This is much better. Many people in Asia have to deal with various severe social issues. Sometimes new ways of doing things must be explored to rejuvenate people.

  166. Yes, thank you. The fundamentals of that group would be — networking opportunities, highly skilled and successful individuals, advocating bilingual communication (support for those who do not have it, but strong emphasis for), and finally and most importantly — dedication, loyalty, and service to the countries of ethnic origin we now call home.
    It would be also good to make an integrative effort with locals; we keep our American identities, but unlike some expats who only transiently wish to exploit, we would try to set up lasting institutions and benefit to our countries.

    Like you said, eat as much as you can in America. My only addition, once again, is connect yourself to your ethnic mother country, and support her.

  167. Well, I’m trying to make connections right now in my future potential place of residence. Trying to work on my Mandarin too — dating a FOB chick now, shes helping me alot.

  168. Youre way ahead of me, I got a few connections but im no position to impress them yet, was working on Mandarin, got to a good pace. but work recently just got to a head, then my laptop packed up so now Im looking for a new one, Im also ‘friendly’ with a FOB chick, but more helping her more with her English haha

  169. I don’t see anything wrong with dating an FOB. If you weren’t born here, you are not considered 1st generation, you are an immigrant. I think there is a misconception that people who lived here awhile are 1st generation. What I’m trying to say is, you shouldn’t look down on FOBs. You aren’t much better. For my tastes, I find Asian women the most beautiful in the world. They understand me and where I’m from the most. I’ve dated many white women and they don’t understand me as well as an Asian woman would.

  170. Ooo nice. By the way, have you ever tried doing some PUA on FOB girls? I don’t incorporate too much PUA into my relationships, but I have found some things here and there that are totally helpful. Email me, and I’d be happy to share some of the benign organic stuff, which is really the only helpful advice I use anyways. For starters, The Cube and Strawberry Fields are fun little personality games I had a lot of fun with on FOBS during dates.

  171. I don’t get the bias against FOBs. This isn’t the 1970s or something when Asian FOBs were likely to be scrappy immigrants. Most of the Korean FOBs I know are pretty cultured and sophisticated, way more so than your stereotypical America-centric Korean-Americans who always say “like” every 4 words.

  172. Wow Raguel, you are dissing on some grade A quality shit. I fucking love those two!!!

  173. A obscure Obama Administration reports:

    “While young [age 14 to 24] black males have accounted for about 1% of the population from 1980 to 2008…(b)y 2008, young black males made up about a quarter of all homicide offenders (27%).”

    More: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf

    Who says profiling is ineffective?

  174. The Blah is one of the fucking hegemonists that I’m talking about. He advocates the IR disparity, he also advocates racial profiling, he tries to promote stereotypes. This guy is basically an example of the kind of person we want to hurt. I say we do whatever we can to hurt White/Western hegemony.

  175. Eric

    Nah its okay bro, not into gaming, rather let it happen naturally.Thanks for the offer though.

  176. The Blah,

    Good video. Looks like Piers got whooped on his own show.

    I’ve been pretty mum on the case, but my view is the same as Jimmy Carter’s and Ta-Nehisi Coates. Morally, what Zimmerman did may be wrong. May be. But legally it’s a different matter. The courts are in the business of deciding legal matters, not moral matters.

  177. BigWowo,

    The fact that what Zimmerman did was actually legal is even worse than him just being a racist murderer. The entity most deserving of a lengthy prison sentence is the Florida legislature.

  178. Oh, no disagreement there at all! The laws in Florida are a travesty.

    And yes, Stevie Wonder is right, and both the extreme liberals and the extreme conservatives are wrong–this IS a Stand Your Ground case, and it IS about guns and the way our laws give license to gun owners to act like goons.

  179. Here’s my take on it though.

    I don’t even care about legality, I don’t care about about whatever dynamics occurred during the trial or the event, or even granting this man a reasonable benefit of the doubt.

    Aside from sympathizing with the disgustingly tragic loss of life of Trayvon, I will throw my lot in with any entity or any issue that cuts down Western dominance. Having conservative whites running scared because they can’t point their guns indiscriminantly is another way white supremacy and hegemony can be curtailed. I don’t care what happened, I just want to see Zimmerman punished to the ends of the earth, because of how he thinks and who he is. To me, he represents conservative America, and hurting conservative America, or any America, is justice to me.

  180. Hahaha, Blah you idiot the only one who is dead is Trayvon. And you talk about lynching…

  181. Pingback: Justice for Christopher: Where is Barack Obama? | bigWOWO

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