Asian Men, Black Men, and the Competition for White Women

About ten years ago, I read a book called “Envy of the World” by Ellis Cose, where he talks about what it’s like to be a black man. He wrote about black men’s appeal to White women and how some black women were resentful of BM/WF, even if, in his explanation, 9 out 10 black men who married did so with black women. Fast forward ten years, and Moroboshi wrote this statement in the last HBD thread:

I’m not saying this applies to everyone but I’ve notice a certain “jealousy” some AM have toward BM. They wonder why do BM do so well with women. (that in itself is a stereotype that I’m not even so sure of) It rips them some of them up inside when they see a WF with a BM because they feel it’s their right to have that because they are supposedly “genetically’ better (smarts,etc). You will find a lot of these bitter, loveless AM seeking things like PUA or HBD. Been reading some of the message boards lately and I’d say 80% of AM going to PUA sites are seeking WFs.

This is not a PUA or HBD thread (so the Obtrusive and Unsubstantiated rule applies…take it out on the other thread if you want to discuss the validity of HBD), but I agree with Moro–lots of the PUA/HBDers use the two philosophies to stick it to the black man. It’s like they’re fighting reaaaal hard to be #2 in the pecking order. “Well, at least I’m smart and get recognition for that!”

A lot of it has to do with the fact that yes, Black men have a certain cachet in American society that Asian men do not. They are “the envy of the world,” which is the title of the book and which comes from a phrase in a Toni Morrison novel. That envy is shared by a lot of angry Asian men, who strike back. However, as Moroboshi alluded to, it’s complicated. I personally had always thought that the Asian man’s main worry was the Invisible Chain and the AFCC Embargo, but after years of talking to people, there is lots of yearning to go outside the community as well. I’ve spoken to Black guys about this, and it’s very complicated.

An older White guy who was a player in his younger life once explained it to me. He said, “Byron, it goes like this. There are more White women who prefer Black guys than there are White women who prefer Asian guys. But…there are more White women who won’t date a Black guy ever and fewer who have that criteria against Asian guys.” What I think this means is that our combined “first” and “second” place finishes are greater than those of black guys, but that we come in “second” a lot.

For the statistics nerds, this means that…well, if you’re in the male version of the AFCC, life is still hard. But it also means that this resentment against Black men is baseless. A lot of times, the reason y’all can’t become the next OJ is because you’re coming in second behind White men, not second behind Black men. So there’s no reason to keep sipping the HBDPUA Kool-Aid.

Actually, in my view, the healthiest thing is to simply opt out. This is true whether you’re Black or Asian. Keep working on media representation and educating yourself on the social aspect of race relations, but for yourself personally, be like a yogi and compete against yourself. You’ll win every time.

(Pic from here.)

1,576 thoughts on “Asian Men, Black Men, and the Competition for White Women

  1. It is not so much about not wanting to date a Black guy or not wanting to date an Asian guy. For women, it’s more about wanting to date a tall guy or wanting to date a muscular guy or wanting to date an athletic guy. Black males embody those characteristics of masculinity more than Asian men tend to, even White & Hispanics men. So women seek those traits & the result is disparate impact against Asians.

    Men tend to seek a woman shorter than them, more petite, and less muscular. Most men of all races would chose Rihanna over Margaret Cho. White & Asian women are thus chose more because they embody said characteristics more than Black females. However, this does not mean that people don’t still have a preference for vanilla, honey, or chocolate skin, which factors into the equation as well.

  2. My point about Rihanna and Margaret Cho is that oftentimes body type trumps race (those examples being inversions of the “norm,” and since certain races tend towards certain body types, well, you get the idea….). I have heard a lot of women (Asian, White, and Black) say that they like the Black man because of their on average bigger….ah, you know. And likewise I hear that Asian women are tighter with Black women being looser down there. The genders within races must have evolved sizes to compliment one another.

  3. Oh and before anyone reacts emotionally to my genital size comments, let me just say that we cannot have a thorough discussion about IR if it goes ignored. The topic just comes up to much in conversation.

  4. “I have heard….”

    You heard all that from Steve Sailer and related blogs. We know. We heard the same. From you.

  5. “Oh and before anyone reacts emotionally to my genital size comments, let me just say that we cannot have a thorough discussion about IR if it goes ignored. The topic just comes up to much in conversation.”

    Even Steve Sailer knew enough to say it wasn’t an issue, because you don’t know what you’re going to get until after you’ve got it.

    If you want to discuss it, go ahead. But do it here:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/04/international-penis-wars/

  6. Well, even if you don’t think it is correlated with race you must at least acknowledge that it is correlated with body size.

    Anyways, I have seen many thousands of male genitalia in heterosexual porn (hehe; if you like gay porn readers, I will not judge :-) ) featuring all races (non-blurred images) and let me just say the stereotypes hold true.

  7. “nyways, I have seen many thousands of male genitalia in heterosexual porn (hehe; if you like gay porn readers, I will not judge ) featuring all races (non-blurred images) and let me just say the stereotypes hold true”.

    Do you think that, just maybe, porno actors in different countries are selected for different eh… physical attributes? How is looking at porn (which they cast for size in America) giving you an accurate picture of the international penis size competition?

  8. Who says I was not referring to American porn? Anyways as I said people tend to be proportionate anyways.

  9. Wow. Glad to see something I said made enough sense to warrant a separate thread. I also notice this. AM being a lot more bothered seeing BM w WF than seeing BM with AF. I think it goes deeper than just attraction. It is a status thing for AM to have his arm around the WF (bottled blonde usually). Just look at any Asian PUA sites and pictures of the kind of women these “gurus” or students post and you’ll see what I’m talking about. (even the fake Photoshopped ones) I believe in many cases, it’s about something that happened growing up where the hot WF in school he lusted after didn’t give him the time of day. We all hear BW talk about BM seeking out WF for status or AM talk about AF seeking out WM for status. I don’t hear much about the AM doing or TRYING to do the exact same thing. I’ll go as far to say AM are much more guilty of this than BM. Again just check out those Asian PUA sites. Those guys are so proud to flaunt the WF in front of anyone. It’s almost like to show the world he’s made it, hoop dee doo, he”s got a WF touching him in a picture. I don’t think BM flaunt this. As a matter of fact, I notice the ones who are dating WFs don’t want anyone knowing since they are so scrutinized by BFs. I’ll say this being someone who’s dated WFs to anyone who hasn’t dated a WF. They are overrated. They aren’t any more special than an AF, BF or LF. Of course I believe in going for who you love. I just don’t get how anyone can’t see someone as a possible mate just cause of the color of their skin. It all goes back to this, I don’t think I’ve heard any other race say they don’t want to be with their own because it feels like they are sleeping with their brother or sister but from AF or AM. It’s pretty sad.

  10. And I also like to add, the best chance for any AM to be with a girl in long term relationship, etc is with an AF. I know they probably don’t believe this but it’s true. This is the person who will understand you the most, your struggles, culture etc. I don’t care who Americanized an AM or AF may be. There is no one else who can understand what we go through in this country better than we can. I have a relative who one time in her life only dated WM. But she went to live in Taiwan for a few years and got into dating AMs. It was there she learned how to appreciate the AM telling me how important it was to have a man who can understand her the way a WM cannot.

    Those only chasing WF, just remember this, the AF, she’s your sister, your mom, the first female you learned to love and loves you unconditionally. Don’t be so short sited with WF chasing. It may be a false dream that may never come into fruition giving you a life full of disappointment and regret.

  11. I’ve never heard of AM being envious of BM. Sounds new to me. I always thought there was competition between white and Asian male, if any.

    “Anyways, I have seen many thousands of male genitalia in heterosexual porn (hehe; if you like gay porn readers, I will not judge ) featuring all races (non-blurred images) and let me just say the stereotypes hold true.”

    Sure you have. Because porn is SO representative of the general population.

  12. “I also notice this. AM being a lot more bothered seeing BM w WF than seeing BM with AF. ”

    lol. you’re out of your mind. There is probably enough hate to go around.

    “Those only chasing WF, just remember this, the AF, she’s your sister, your mom, the first female you learned to love and loves you unconditionally. Don’t be so short sited with WF chasing. It may be a false dream that may never come into fruition giving you a life full of disappointment and regret.”

    I’ve said this before in other fourms. If an AM wants to be with an AF then there are millions of them in asian countries.

  13. I’ve said this before in other fourms. If an AM wants to be with an AF then there are millions of them in asian countries.

    actually that’s Billions.

  14. I’ve never heard of this either. I think that AMs who only go for WFs aren’t common and only exist among PUAs and more Americanized Asians.

  15. So funny the relation of Porn and the AM. There’s a stereotype we watch it more than most yet there’s just about no straight AM porn stars (not sure if that’s true but that’s what I read) In my opinion watching porn isn’t good for anyone, especially AM. It is make believe. I believe people, especially AM for some reason create this fantasy in their heads of what an ideal woman is. Thus you have the guys with astronomical expectations when looking for a mate and for some reason, these end up seeking PUA. A lot of these guys probably never even been with a woman before. If you’re going to look for a porn fantasy woman, you might as well be falling in love with Lara Croft. Women who don’t exist. Porn isn’t the problem, it’s how seriously some take it that is.

  16. I’ve never heard of this either. I think that AMs who only go for WFs aren’t common and only exist among PUAs and more Americanized Asians.

    You wanted to say “Twinkie” didn’t you? ADMIT IT!!

  17. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Black and Asian men compete for the affection of White Women. This is the funniest thread that I read in a long time on here. You just posted this after I said White men is competing with Asian men for the love of Asian Women. Do you really think Black Men are dating hot White women? Nope! They are the fat and ugly White Women we don’t want any how. Asian guys may have a better chance since many White Women will date anything but Black guys. But most White Women will date only those in their own race. Less then 1 percent of White Women marry outside their race.
    The only reason why Black Men dates White Men is to get back at White Men. The only reason that White Women date outside their race is to rebel against their parents, nothing more.
    You guys probably are jerking off to Casey Anthony. She is probably looking for a men.

  18. The only reason Black Men date White Women is to get back at White Men. Correction in the above paragraph.

  19. This is the response to Moro…… from the other posts about BM/WM and AM.

    You have understand that many AMs feel jaded for a number of reasons when it comes to attracting White women. Just take a look at these facts.

    1) The media hasn’t been kind to AMs.

    2) There is an interracial dating disparity that is not in favor to AMs.

    3) WFs see AMs as the least physcially attractive guys, more so than any other women.

    4) Being a nice guy with superior education and financial attainment hasn’t made them popular with White women.

    5) THEY SEE BLACK and EVEN LATINO GUYS WITH WFs more often, despite their perceived inferiority in career and financial matters as compared to AMs.

    Yes, from my own personal observations, I see many WFs automatically write off AMs as any potential romantic partners. I’ve been to many social functions to see this. Blacks and Hispanic guys are a lot more popular and WFs are more willing to socialize with them. My basis is that many AMs just aren’t attractive enough for many WFs. The Columbia Dating experiment has proven it, after I long speculated this reason.

    And even in everyday situations, AMs are treated second class in cities where multiculturalism/racialism is prevalent. Think LA or the Northeast like NYC!

    “You are right there are probably BM jealous of AM and their perceived financial success but the thing is, I don’t see many of them going on message boards posting messages that are very similar to what you’d find in white supremacist sites.
    When you say AM getting treated second class, what do you mean by that?

    What people are treating AMs second class solely because of their looks?
    Do you mean attractive white women? Those women get approached by everyone. They treat not just Asians but every guy they aren’t interested in like that. Everywhere you go, there are going to be douche bags who aren’t friendly to you. That’s just life and not cause you’re Asian. In terms of going into public places, I think AMs are treated for the most part very well. I noticed this for the first time when being in college, I went w a friend who happened to be black shopping in a mall. We both had bags and when we walked into a store, my friend automatically gave his bag to the front.

    BTW, APB doesn’t believe WFs are not receptive to AM when it comes to dating partners. His whole sale is, he can teach you how to approach them. The only thing is I question the validity of not just him but all PUA Gurus on what they teach. Just read the field reports on any site. Most don’t get anywhere with anyone.

    Anyway, my point has always been, don’t be so picky. Don’t just go looking for the sexy girl next door white cheerleader that we are “suppose” to desire. We all grew up watching movies, TV etc on the ideal beauty we believe we should get. We get brainwashed into thinking all it takes is being a romantic, good with words and the beautiful women will flock. That’s not reality. ……blah blah….”

  20. Moro……

    Byron told me that the APB crew score mostly AFs, and not the other kinds of women. And they are usually the fobby types, and not the ones of equal footing, ie..acculturation, education and financial level.

  21. Alot of fobby Asian women like WMs too.

    “I’ve never heard of this either. I think that AMs who only go for WFs aren’t common and only exist among PUAs and more Americanized Asians”.

  22. Chr…

    “My basis is that many AMs just aren’t attractive enough for many WFs.”

    What do you mean not attractive enough for White Females?

  23. “What do you mean not attractive enough for White Females?”

    I meant to say that the physical/racial attributes of many AMs just aren’t appealing to White women.

  24. [I meant to say that the physical/racial attributes of many AMs just aren’t appealing to White women.]

    And this is confirmed by that Columbian dating study. Chr has known this for a long time now, but the study proved what he already knew! :)

    Yeah, this is my contribution to the thread. Carry on.

  25. Byron, A good looking black dude who has his sh*t together will score more WFs than the Asian dude of the same calibre. Does anyone want to disagree?

    BMs are a lot more popular than AMs with WFs by default. There are many factors at work here, such as the media and one having to do with familarity. I’m not complaining. AMs are just unknown territory to a lot of people.

  26. “And this is confirmed by that Columbian dating study. Chr has known this for a long time now, but the study proved what he already knew!”

    Or we could use the excuse/fact that most AMs prefer AFs, so this discussion should be a moot topic.

  27. @siegfried

    That’s the funniest thing I’ve read all week.

    But I have nothing to contribute to this thread at all

  28. An older White guy who was a player in his younger life once explained it to me. He said, “Byron, it goes like this. There are more White women who prefer Black guys than there are White women who prefer Asian guys. But…there are more White women who won’t date a Black guy ever and fewer who have that criteria against Asian guys.” What I think this means is that our combined “first” and “second” place finishes are greater than those of black guys, but that we come in “second” a lot.

    Some truth to this. BM have so much more representation in the media than AM. But for BM, it encompasses both the very positive (muscular superstar athletes, smooth R&B singers, uberconfident rappers, etc) and very negative (criminals). For AM, the media image of them is kind of “meh”.
    Accordingly, WF reactions to AM tend more towards neutrality or ambivalence, while BM inspire stronger feelings both for and against among WF.

  29. @ Fun9876:

    On a list of female priorities, does penis size REALLY matter that much? I’m sure a decent size is appreciated, but I can’t imagine most women even consider it as a reason to date a guy or not. Otherwise they would ask you to whip it out for inspection as soon as you approach to chat to them, and that doesn’t normally happen. By the time most women get to inspect the measurements of a guy’s package, they are usually sort of involved already.

    The ones who see penis size as high priority are probably the equivalent of the guys who value breast size as high priority… in other words, someone not worth wasting your time on.

    I’ve mostly heard women say that size isn’t that important, but perhaps that says more about me :S

  30. @es

    Crap. We’re agreeing on something again. What’s the deal with the obsession with breast sizes

  31. By Ashley Kim Song

    As an Asian girl growing up in the United States, I believe I was taught by the society to be attracted to just about everyone besides other Asian men. This marginalization of Asian men has occurred, in my view, for several reasons.

    First, the media never portrays Asian men in a dominant role. They are always portrayed as nerdy, geeky, brainiacs, with no sense of themselves and no ability to attract women. In other words, the media portrays Asian men as incapable and undesirable.

    Second, American society has many negative stereotypes towards Asian men. It has become a complete joke to think that an Asian man could ever “satisfy” a woman. Their “manlihood” is the constant subject of jokes and insults. For this reason, most women view Asian men as asexual and feminine.

    Asian women in our society, because of their conditioning, on the whole do not prefer to date Asian men. In one of the discussion classes I taught last year at Berkeley, half of the Asian girls in the room, stated that they do not prefer to date Asian men. Also, roughly every other girl in the class also agreed that they prefer not to date Asian men. So, if Asian women are on a trend of not dating Asian men, who are they dating?

    Girls the class I taught generally gave me two answers to this question. The most obvious one being White men, as people around Berkeley and other cultural areas can most recognizably notice. The second most common answer from the girls was Indian men (South Asians). When I asked the girls why the preferred these two ethnic groups of men, their responses centered around two areas: economic status and physical attractiveness.

    In terms of economic status, the Asian girls said that both white men and Indian men in our society (especially here at Berkeley), were viewed as successfull, intelligent, and confident. These are all qualities that the Asian community values.

    Next, the girls said that they found these two groups of men to physically attractive. When I asked why, the responses I recieved were varied. My conjecture in this case would be that both groups tend to share the same sharp features (Greco-Roman noses/eyes) that the media tends to value.

    So what is the end result of all this? Asian women are “up for grabs” and this has essentially devasted Asian men. Asian men are getting the axe on two levels here. First, they are only seen as being able to date their own kind (other Asian girls). At the same time, their own kind, at an increasing rate, tends not to prefer them sexually.

    http://skratchnsnift.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/do-all-asian-berkeley-girls-feel-this-way/

    There seems to be a link between Asian women’s status and black males status among white people

  32. My take on this subject is this: the sexually attractiveness and the physical masculinity of men naturally takes it’s place; and white guys unfortunately for me, take second place to that.A lot of people tend to get hyped up about the small numbers of BM and BW who date IR but I wonder how many of these relationships result in marriage? Dating is one thing but marriage is a whole nother ball game. Dating is easy, it only requires your spare time and the exspense of a date but marriage is so much more demanding and it brings on a whole new set of challenges within itself

  33. @S,

    I don’t think Indian men are up there with White men, but they do seem more desirable to many women than East Asian men. That is, if you are talking about those Indian guys who are taller with lighter skin, and more “Caucasian”, and not the guys who are swarthy and short. We could say the same for those above average Asian dudes who conform to the “Western” standards of beauty.

  34. You rarely see white women and Indian men together. Indian people, not Native Americans, do not interracial date. Believe me I tried. It’s frown on by their cultures. Just because I’m white, doesn’t mean I’ll be accepted by Asians, east or west, families.

  35. Wow that was elucidating. Perhaps Chr and Siegfried can exchange email addresses in order to develop more epiphanies in Google Chat.

  36. “I don’t think Indian men are up there with White men, but they do seem more desirable to many women than East Asian men. That is, if you are talking about those Indian guys who are taller with lighter skin, and more “Caucasian”, and not the guys who are swarthy and short. We could say the same for those above average Asian dudes who conform to the “Western” standards of beauty.”

    “You rarely see white women and Indian men together. Indian people, not Native Americans, do not interracial date. Believe me I tried. It’s frown on by their cultures. Just because I’m white, doesn’t mean I’ll be accepted by Asians, east or west, families.”

    Wow, those are some really amazing discoveries! If I keep at it, eventually I will derive every rule in the world! Finally, a solution to life!

  37. @interracialdate

    I agree with you on some points.
    I wonder though, what’s your intrepretation of smaller numbers and what kind of threshold (ie. percentage of interracial marriages) before we should start discussing the impacts of IR to the most negatively affected – eg. For BM/WF relationships, the mostly impacted would be BFs.

  38. Alright, I’m about to get a little more graphic than I’m used to because everytime there’s an IR discussion, IMO, most of the “facts” seem to be based on hypothetical theories than actual real-life application. Let me explain. Again, I preface this post by disclaiming that these are all based on personal experience.

    As someone who’s seen a lot of penises in my day, I can tell you that the size is generally the same across all races. I’ve seen penises from 5’6″ AMs that are the same size as someone 6′ tall. The only noticeably difference (IMO) is when the guy is considerably tall, like 6’2″ and taller, but like someone in here mentioned, provided that the penis of decent size, I’m not going to select one guy over another simply because of a one-inch advantage.

    I’m a little uncomfortable with joining IR debates because it pains me to hear so many guys here reinforcing their own negative stereotypes. For those of you who think that AMs have a shorter package, have you seen other people’s junk to make a valid comparison?

    Please note that what you see “hanging” in the locker rooms doesn’t necessary apply to real-world scenarios, specifically when you’re having sex. I’m talking a little bit about the theory of “growers,” but there’s more (no pun intended). In theory, a flacid guy’s penis can grow several inches more when aroused, but in my experience, it hasn’t reached full potential yet.

    Those of you who have great sex with stable partners can agree that over the course of your sexual history with your partner, there are times when the penis is at a certain size during “regular” sex. But then there are times when the penis can grow 1-2 inches more than its peak. Anything can trigger that extra growth. In my experience, it involves having more time for sex than the usual quickie. But other couples can experience it when they do certain moves or get high, or whatever. Also, in my experience, I’ve never seen a guy’s potential during short-term relationships or one-night stands. I discovered it by having a stable and trusting sexual relationship with my partner where we tried everything, and got varying results.

    IMO, the whole penis size theory isn’t really valid because the conversation usually involves just guys. Not only do you have to sift through the exaggerations, but guys tend to generally measure their size when they’re initially hard. I’m sure there have been a few circle jerks to get an objective comparison, but that doesn’t cut it. But women, on the other hand, measure size by the guy’s potential, which doesn’t happen all the time.

    Say what you want about an AM’s x-inch penis. I’ve seen it get two inches bigger consistently, and that’s what I use as the true measurement. If a woman tells me that AMs are generally smaller than other guys, I tell her that she’s not experienced enough to know how to make her partner (or former partner) “bigger.” Mature, sexually-experienced women know that everything about sex has to do with both partners, and isn’t just a defect within one person. What you’re given with may be a lot different than what you end up with when you have great sex.

    It’s the same thing like when a woman complains that she’s generally frigid, guys don’t attribute the blame to her. They just assume she hasn’t found the right one to loosen her up. In my experience, it’s the same thing with penis size. Guys really don’t know their potential until they’ve explored it with someone (or many), and more-experienced guys are already comfortable with their penis size regardless of actual measurement.

    Lastly, and I hate to put this last, since it’s prolly the most important thing in my post, I disagree with the notion that AMs are somehow shorter (or smaller) than everyone else, and that’s what’s keeping them from getting girls. During my dating history, if I wanted to go out with a tall AM, I never had issues finding one. If I wanted to date someone with strong, angular features (my preference), there were plenty AMs with high cheekbones and square jaws to choose from. If I wanted someone with big brown eyes, it’s not a shortage with SE AMs. Ultimately, it was something else other than height/eye size/features that made me decide who to go out with, and ultimately marry.

  39. I’ve asked (out of curiosity) a few hookers if the racial stereotypes with regards to penis size are generally true. Now these are women who have been with 1,000’s of guys. They each said “yes.” Take that for what it’s worth.

  40. “I’ve asked (out of curiosity) a few hookers if the racial stereotypes with regards to penis size are generally true. Now these are women who have been with 1,000′s of guys. They each said “yes.” Take that for what it’s worth.”

    Geez. How many hookers are you on speaking terms with?

  41. Fun:

    “I’ve asked (out of curiosity) a few hookers if the racial stereotypes with regards to penis size are generally true. Now these are women who have been with 1,000′s of guys. They each said “yes.” Take that for what it’s worth.”

    Dude, they’re in the customer service industry! They probably saw a White man and were trying to make you feel better.

  42. Not sure if this has been brought up but I don’t know if you can just blame the media for the lack of Asian males. I know a lot of AMs who do. Ask yourself this, are we supporting our own when it comes to shows, movies etc that feature us? Are shows or movies that feature us even any good? Hollywood isn’t about discrimination. It is about making money. If movies or shows featuring AMs are losing money, is it the responsibility of Hollywood studios to throw many away like that? How many AMs do you know will go out and pay to see AM films? I think AMs in TV shows and features have been waaaay better than it has been when LDD first spoke in SIXTEEN CANDLES. It’s easy to blame Hollywood and can probably take some of the blame but we need to do our part to support and more importantly come out with better stuff that the mainstream can also enjoy. In terms of portrayal, if you feel a movie isn’t giving AMs love, I would boycott it. The problem is, not enough of us are so those bad portrayals will continue.

  43. “Dude, they’re in the customer service industry! They probably saw a White man and were trying to make you feel better.”

    No, they said Black men were biggest.

  44. “I’ve asked (out of curiosity) a few hookers if the racial stereotypes with regards to penis size are generally true. Now these are women who have been with 1,000′s of guys. They each said “yes.” Take that for what it’s worth.”

    Boring sex with your wife = smaller erect penis. Not to say that the sex will be much better if the guy seeks out a prostitute, but again, a one-time quickie in a car or in a hotel room with money involved doesn’t portray true sexual potential. Maybe if she narrowed it down to her repeat customers where the sex is mutually good, then we’re talking.

    You guys are looking to the wrong sources for all this misinformation. Find someone who’s emotionally balanced, loves sex, has frequent sex, and most likely, they’ll have praises for men of any race.

  45. In terms of representation in the media, what moro mentioned about the apathy from the AA community to support its own is true. But in my experience, it’s usually from ignorance instead of straight-out refusal. And Whiteness being the default other also plays into it.

    Here’s an example. I used to work for the #1 online travel agency (should be easy to figure out). I worked in the merchandising team, and I would sometimes sit in design meetings where the creative for a site promotion would be reviewed. And almost always, they have WF/WM couples gracing these pages, despite the fact that there are designers in the group who are not White.

    One meeting, as I was reviewing the creative for a huge campaign where they had a different design based on each type of customer they were seeking, I made the comment that our photos need more variety. I started off with a less-threatening suggestion of featuring more couples in our Vegas promotion (instead of singles) and then groups of friends of a variety of races. Then I ended my suggestion with balancing the other photos of couple with those who are a different color. It started a domino effect where eventually, someone (WF) commented that our promos are always so “lily-white.”

    As a result, our final promo page featured two couples, one AM/AF and a gay couple. And that’s it. Coincidentally, our composition of designers included two AMs and one gay guy. And our promo performed just as well as our previous promos with WF/WM couples.

  46. @ Fun9876:

    Anyways, I have seen many thousands of male genitalia in heterosexual porn (hehe; if you like gay porn readers, I will not judge ) featuring all races (non-blurred images) and let me just say the stereotypes hold true.

    I’ve asked (out of curiosity) a few hookers if the racial stereotypes with regards to penis size are generally true. Now these are women who have been with 1,000′s of guys. They each said “yes.” Take that for what it’s worth.

    You lead an interesting life, homes. How do you have time to hold down a job in between this extensive schlong research?

  47. So much talk about size and nothing about technique. I have learned that size has no bearing on what you know how to do with what you have got
    And to piggy back off of what InterracialDate said, I would like to ask, is the main problem that AMs are not dating as much, even though they are most likely predisposed to marrying and having children with an AF or are they not marrying at all?

  48. Oh, and I wanted to add
    Cos I think there seems to be an illusion permeating everywhere these days that you somehow have to be undergoing a dating frenzy to be having fun or to find your mate.
    For those who have found their mates, it mostly happened when they were least expecting it.

  49. “You lead an interesting life, homes. How do you have time to hold down a job in between this extensive schlong research?”

    It’s challenging. I’m not as into porn though as I once was.

  50. Eurasian:

    “Some truth to this. BM have so much more representation in the media than AM. But for BM, it encompasses both the very positive (muscular superstar athletes, smooth R&B singers, uberconfident rappers, etc) and very negative (criminals). For AM, the media image of them is kind of “meh”.
    Accordingly, WF reactions to AM tend more towards neutrality or ambivalence, while BM inspire stronger feelings both for and against among WF.”

    Exactly. That’s probably why we come in second place a lot! :) Our stereotype doesn’t make all that loud of a statement, neither super-negative nor super-positive.

  51. Fun,

    “No, they said Black men were biggest.”

    You failed to please them, dude. Check out what af/am couple said about bringing the best out of yourself. It takes practice, man.

  52. By the way, “fun”–not sure if you’re trying to be the next Siggy. If you are…well, I will admit you’re getting better. But I think you need to drop the HBD thing to truly become lovable. Get rid of the HBD thing, and we can have two lovable clowns.

    Siggy,

    You too are getting better. I still remember the old days, and you didn’t crack me up nearly as much as you do now! You should exchange e-mail addresses with “Fun” and show him the ropes.

  53. Dude, you are taking my statements waaay too seriously (relax), even though they are not made up. You are coming across as responding in an emotional manner and you make explicit & implicit slights in my direction — no need for that, really, man. I’m just relaying the gist of a conversation I had in a forthright manner. Take it at face value.

  54. ^
    2 where Whites one was Asian. I suppose they could have been BSing or maybe it was just a coincidence, I dunno. Technically I suppose the hookers were “escorts.”

  55. can I just say, all the hottest guys on the planet are Asian. There’s Daniel Henney (okay so he’s 1/2). And some dude on the Louis Vuitton catalogue who I think is full blown Asian. He is the main male model of that catalogue of last year’s men’s collection.

  56. Provocative topic by bigWOWO.

    But yeah as mentioned above its all about the media. Its the way we are portrayed. And also the way Black guys are stereotyped. It takes a certain confidence as an asian man to be proud of his sexuality, esp with all the negative / invisible image given by media.

    Kobukson recently said ‘ ignore the media’ switch of your tv. I was going to respond to him on that thread but ill respond to him here.

    you cannot ignore media unless you just close yourself off society . its everywhere. as i said in another post. asian men need to step up. look at the asian youtubers. timdelaghetto. wongfu. they are doing it. and they have staying power. in a way thank goodness for these guys because as far as im concerned without them we have ZERO positive rep.

  57. Actually, Fun, I was trying to take you less seriously. HAHA….I was SERIOUSLY trying to take you less seriously. I thought you were trying to be the class clown like Siggy. I was trying to hint, though, that he’s been at this for years and has refined his art.

  58. Moro, af/am couple, I think you’ve both brought up very important points and perspectives.

    Regarding penis size, I’m quite sure “fun” is trying his best to be provoke outrage. It’s part of the act, you see. Effort must be made to look unbelievably, intractably stupid so that other commenters would try to dogpile him. He needs the attention to get an erection.

    On the other matter, I suspect that the large majority of Asian Americans do not support their own artistes and would rather watch mainstream rubbish. Have you seen the Hangover 2 farce? Lots of Asians saw the first Hangover, and paid money to do so. These same Asians then paid money to watch Hangover 2. Would they pay money for a film from Asia, or to watch an Asian American performer/artiste?

  59. ‘Byron, it goes like this. There are more White women who prefer Black guys than there are White women who prefer Asian guys. But…there are more White women who won’t date a Black guy ever and fewer who have that criteria against Asian guys.’

    I think Asian women are the same way when it comes to Black guys and it lead me to ponder about a certain book. Has anyone here read Stefhen Bryan’s Black Passenger Yellow Cabs? Can they recommend it? Loving Asian women, Bryan, the author, went to Japan to indulge his tastes. I’m reading the reviews on Amazon & it looks like he paid for 14 abortions.

  60. @ Raguel:

    while I have no beef with you personally, I have to say that your favourite method of argument – making belittling sexual comments about whoever disagrees with you – is funny once in a while but is getting old, fast. I don’t think it adds any value to the discussion.

  61. I have to say that your favourite method of argument – making belittling sexual comments about whoever disagrees with you – is funny once in a while but is getting old, fast.
    This.

  62. Eurasian to Raguel – “while I have no beef with you personally, I have to say that your favourite method of argument – making belittling sexual comments about whoever disagrees with you – is funny once in a while but is getting old, fast. I don’t think it adds any value to the discussion”.

    ah..ROFLMAO

    Maybe PUA turns guys into sadistic unisex mongers.

  63. “On the other matter, I suspect that the large majority of Asian Americans do not support their own artistes and would rather watch mainstream rubbish”.

    Or support those AAs who want to challenge the status quo and would rather lick the mainstream’s behind blindly.

  64. “And some dude on the Louis Vuitton catalogue who I think is full blown Asian. He is the main male model of that catalogue of last year’s men’s collection”.

    We all know that the typical handsome Asian dude have “eurocentric” features. Asians want to be like Whites in appearance, even if they aren’t one of them.

    Louis Vuitton Model – Godfrey Gao

  65. I sick of hearing about Black Men this and Black Men that. Why don’t you download Ewan McGregor and Vivian Wu in Pillow talk that should put an end to such argument. That movie was the hottest White Man And Asian Woman film that I have every seen. It was hotter than Jason and that Chinese girl in the Transporter. That was one hot kiss between them. She was in her pink panties.

    @Linda You should give White Guys a chance. Variety is the spice of life they say. You should come see what all the conversation about.

  66. @siegfried

    How about watching the movie with Lee Hom Wang and Crystal Liu? Quite easily the hottest screen couple I’ve seen.

  67. Chr: It’s unfortunate, the eurocentric look is the standard of beauty but that’s what sells. Again, is it a corporation’s obligation to save people’s feelings by putting on models who aren’t attractive to the people they are trying to sell their product to?

    I think anyone who complains about AM not getting a fair wrap in the media should not watch anything put out by these companies. If you are so bothered, start a letter writing campaign. Have people go to advertisers on how you’re not going to buy their product because you didn’t like how your group was shown.

    And for those who don’t believe in making a difference, you’re wrong. People do listen. Companies hate losing money. I’ve heard of people boycotting something they found offensive but never heard of people who boycott something cause it didn’t feature something offensive. Is someone going to avoid a movie because there’s no flamboyant Asian guy from THE HANGOVER? I think not.

    I’d like to add this. Lots of these groups who are criticizing media, are they also criticizing the actors who take these stereotypical roles? I think they should be if not more. I know they need to make a living but can we make that excuse if someone was marketing cigarettes to children? They also need to make a living, right? Gedde Watanabe should be taking as much as the blame as the producers who created his character in my opinion.

    Siegried: Vivian Wu is hot but I don’t know what to say about her acting skillz. That’s the problem. We have a lot of good looking Asians who can’t act worth a lick. Too many Daniel Henney’s not enough John Chos. I’m interested to see this new “The Lady” film with Michelle Yeoh. See if she can earn some Oscar attention for her performance.

  68. LOL…I had to laugh when he said Asian men envy Black men. I have never heard or seen any Asian guy envy Blacks. Beyond the rap stars and millionaire athlete, I have never seen an attractive white women with black men. Not that white women is any trophy. I think this black guy got into his head that he has made it by boiking white women.

  69. @ Harry:

    Maybe you need to go out to the streets and see all the white and Asian kids who emulate black speech, fashion, music, dance, even their way of walking. And I’m not just talking about the US; you can see the same thing in virtually every country of the world, to some extent.
    You should check out a video of Far East Movement, or Bi Rain sometime.

  70. “I have never seen an attractive white women with black men.”

    @ Harry
    Hahahahaha! Dude, it’s really not all that hard… nice try though.

    Taye Diggs and wife Idina Menzel:
    http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/taye_diggs_photo2.jpg

    I know she looks hideous, but c’mon, throw poor Taye a bone:
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GHdlWfRmhzs/TiIGI_xcZLI/AAAAAAAAAfw/odARB8pvOCA/s1600/idina_menzel.jpg

    Here’s Seal and his wife, Heidi Klum
    http://www.realbollywood.com/up_images/11124913.jpg

    Yeah I know… what a dog… right?

    and here’s another ugly White woman!
    http://www.unathleticmag.com/wp-content/uploads/RJ.jpg

    You’re right, Black guys ALWAYS pick the dogs. Talk about a selective vision.

  71. Siggy,

    I sick of hearing about Black Men this and Black Men that. Why don’t you download Ewan McGregor and Vivian Wu in Pillow talk that should put an end to such argument. That movie was the hottest White Man And Asian Woman film that I have every seen. It was hotter than Jason and that Chinese girl in the Transporter. That was one hot kiss between them. She was in her pink panties.

    Maybe some of these movies will change your mind:

    Here’s Carlton’s take:

  72. King and Eurasian,

    What did I say? Beyond rich and famous black guys and athletes. Of course all those rich black actors and athlete will have their pickings. We are talking about average folks here.

    Personally, I don’t like the whole acting black or acting white. If you are talking about fashion, speech, way of walking, then I guess we are all acting white then. Since I am pretty bland myself, speak English, and I like rock, which is has a combination of influences. So some people grow up in urban areas and are influence by urban speech. I never denied the influence of black people in American.

    I always said without black people America and the America would be boring as hell, there would not be any blues, rocking n’ roll, or Motown – that would be a damn shame. I recognized and admired the mark that black people have made on American culture.

    That being said, I have never heard or know any Asian guys who envies black guys. Sometimes I think you guys are making shit up. Most Asian guys don’t even have that complex to think a white girl should be with Asian instead of blacks. On the other hand, if you go on Twitter and see some black guys scratching their heads on how some ugly Asian guys can get a hot Asian girls, seeing as how ‘Asian guys have small dick’ and ‘big black guys dicks is what all girls want’. LMAO.

    I have been reading about IR for a long time and this is the first time I heard this BS notion. I would believe if some Asian guys think he is better than black guys and get mad at an BM/AF relationship, but BM/WF? I don’t even think it ever cross my mind.

    In reality, it is getting to the point with IR in the Asian community that WM and BM would get offended if an Asian girls only dates Asian guys and are not attracted them.

  73. Harry:

    “What did I say? Beyond rich and famous black guys and athletes. Of course all those rich black actors and athlete will have their pickings. We are talking about average folks here. “

    Well, in order for people to post pics of attractive White women married to non-rich and non-famous black guys, we’d have to have pics of them. And most pics on the web are of famous people.

    I know some non-rich, non-famous black guy who are married to beautiful White women. But I suppose these guys are also above average in looks. So I guess it makes sense.

  74. @Bryon Why not put clips from Pillowbook, instead? I’m not going to waste my time and view those clips. I don’t know why you put them on here. Put Jason and that hot Chinese girl from the Tanpoter on and we’ll see which one is the hottest. I dare you

    @N I only want to watch movies with White Guys and Asian Gals. It’s boring watching to Asian couple make out on the big screen. That’s the reason why they don’t make movies with members of the same race much. Who would want to see it?
    Now when an Asian Woman and White Man are making love on the big screen or TV, it arouses me and other males, young or old, to no in.

  75. @siegfried

    Lol, it’s really great that we have you here. That’s a great argument.

    Keep up the good work!

  76. I meant to say “to no end”.
    @Morobshi Michelle Yeoh is to old and Vivian Wu is too. Grace Park is hot. She has a great body on Hawiia-five-O.

  77. @ Siegfried:

    I only want to watch movies with White Guys and Asian Gals. It’s boring watching to Asian couple make out on the big screen.

    Now wait… white guy and Asian girl is hot to watch, Asian guy and Asian girl is boring.

    But there’s an Asian girl in both scenes, Siggy. Isn’t she the main drawcard for you?

    Unless…

    I think I get it now. Siggy’s biggest turn on is white guys!

    (To quote Seinfeld: “Not that there’s anything wrong with that.”)

  78. Grace Park married an AM so I’m surprised you like her Sieg. You should like that girl on The Social Network who also had her picture used for escort agencies instead.

    Sieg = The Andy Kauffman of these message boards.

  79. Chr.,

    “We all know that the typical handsome Asian dude have “eurocentric” features. Asians want to be like Whites in appearance, even if they aren’t one of them.”

    What a brainwashed comment. YOU think that Asians can only be good looking if they are white and that whites are superior. Any Asian with a small amount of pride in their own would never say such a thing. There are lots of good looking Asians that DO NOT look white. Maybe they look white to you because only whites can be good looking in your mind. You may have not seen any admirable Asian people, but they are around you, just not in your white world.

  80. Siegfried,

    “I only want to watch movies with White Guys and Asian Gals. It’s boring watching to Asian couple make out on the big screen. That’s the reason why they don’t make movies with members of the same race much. Who would want to see it?”

    You mean members of minority races, not white couples. Those movies are an ego trip for you because you are able to project yourself into the movie whereas it would be harder with an Asian guy.

  81. @moroboshi

    “But Asian women will always make themselves available when a white guy approach them!”

    A famous quote that I’ve heard from at least five people during my high school and uni days.

  82. The one comment I have to add to all this is one I’m sure you’ve heard before. Asian males need to take the initiative more. Take, for instance, what I recently witnessed. Okay, it’s an imperfect horrible example, but bear with me here.

    The WF took a liking to the AM after learning he’s a multi-millionaire and still counting. AM is currently single. From where we were all sitting, WF was giving him all sorts of hints and signals that she wanted him to ask her out. We all agreed unanimously that if AM were more assertive, he would have gotten laid that night. Anyway.

    What did AM do? Nothing. Sat there like a doofus, and before you pounce on me, I say that with love. That AM is someone very close to me. I mean, this is how bad it got: A song came on and the WF is dancing in her chair and says loudly to AM and AM only, “Wow, I love this song!” AM does nothing. Any other guy would have seized on that and said, “Wanna dance?”

    WF left thinking AM wasn’t interested. On the contrary, post-facto we learn that AM found WF super cute. Given, WF was into him for some of the wrong reasons, i.e., she really liked the fact AM is rich, but still. AM had a chance and did nothing with that chance.

    I am generally against PUA but guys, a little more initiative wouldn’t hurt.

  83. We are all brainwashed. AFs are brainwashed, many AMs are brainwashed. The defacto goodlooking archetypical Asian dude has features that you find in many White men. Square jaw, eyebrow ridges and overall chiseled face. Asian men usually don’t have these features.

    Why did Linda mention Danniel Henney? This guy is a Hapa and has typical caucasian features that I’ve described. So you see, many Asian females are brainwashed that anyone who is White looking is more attractive. The same could be said of Black, Indians and Hispanics who look more White.

    “What a brainwashed comment. YOU think that Asians can only be good looking if they are white and that whites are superior. Any Asian with a small amount of pride in their own would never say such a thing. There are lots of good looking Asians that DO NOT look white. Maybe they look white to you because only whites can be good looking in your mind. You may have not seen any admirable Asian people, but they are around you, just not in your white world”.

  84. @jstele Why blame me? I don’t produce movies. I only watch them. I told you that if there was no market for films (WM/AF). I guarantee you Hollywood wouldn’t bother to make them. You wouldn’t see a sole Asian female being surrounded by White males on reality tv shows or couples like Amazing Race.

  85. Seems like Asians guys could only score WFs if he’s wealthy!

    That being said, I think we are OK to say that most WFs don’t like Asian men. Blame the media right? But wait, most AMs don’t like WFs to begin with, so who cares?

    And we need PUAs to show AMs how to do the right thing when it comes to women!

    I think all AMs need to stop discussing this topic and how PUA is involved. It leads to nowhere except arguments spouting back and forth.

    PUA like APB capitalize on people’s misery just like doctors and lawyers do. He wants you to suck when it comes to women, or else there wouldn’t be any revenue rolling in…

    “The WF took a liking to the AM after learning he’s a multi-millionaire and still counting. AM is currently single. From where we were all sitting, WF was giving him all sorts of hints and signals that she wanted him to ask her out. We all agreed unanimously that if AM were more assertive, he would have gotten laid that night. Anyway.

    What did AM do? Nothing. Sat there like a doofus, and before you pounce on me, I say that with love. That AM is someone very close to me. I mean, this is how bad it got: A song came on and the WF is dancing in her chair and says loudly to AM and AM only, “Wow, I love this song!” AM does nothing. Any other guy would have seized on that and said, “Wanna dance?”

    WF left thinking AM wasn’t interested. On the contrary, post-facto we learn that AM found WF super cute. Given, WF was into him for some of the wrong reasons, i.e., she really liked the fact AM is rich, but still. AM had a chance and did nothing with that chance. I am generally against PUA…”.

  86. ” There are more White women who prefer Black guys than there are White women who prefer Asian guys. But…there are more White women who won’t date a Black guy ever and fewer who have that criteria against Asian guys.” What I think this means is that our combined “first” and “second” place finishes are greater than those of black guys, but that we come in “second” a lot”.

    Byron, I don’t get this at all. More WFs like Black guys than Asians guys, but most don’t want to date them. Does this make any sense to you?

  87. @ Chr:

    It means that WF’s attitudes to AM are more neutral (neither strongly interested or strongly uninterested), whereas WF attitudes towards BM are stronger in both directions. There are more white women who are likely to find black men hot than who would find Asian men hot; but there are also more white women who would refuse to date black guys than there are who refuse to date Asian guys.

  88. Chr..: FWIW, the very first reason I fell for Hubby was his looks. I saw him and thought he was sexy looking. His features aren’t in any way whatsoever “Caucasian.”

    And no, I am NOT saying that an Asian male needs to be wealthy to get a white female. That’s why I included the disclaimer that it’s an imperfect example. It just happened that THAT white female was liking him for the wrong reasons. I certainly wasn’t looking for my friend to marry that woman; but he’s single and looking and so certainly he could have gotten laid that night with a pretty attractive young lady. For whatever reason, he just couldn’t muster up what it took to simply ask her, “Wanna dance?” I don’t get it.

  89. @es

    ‘I don’t hate that guy’ is a long, long way away from ‘potential dating material’.

    All or nothing is a lot better than coming fourth or fifth every time. There’s very gain for coming second, let alone fourth or fifth when it comes to love.

    Then again this topic doesn’t apply to me. I care very little what WFs think of AMs.

  90. @tz

    I think we really need to look at the 14/15 year olds and see how they’re going. The lack of experience at the early age is likely to create a flow-on effect and impact them in later stages.

  91. @TZ
    Why doesn’t your rich friend go back to Asia/China to find a bride/wife? He certainly has the money to go back, but does he want a woman/wife to love him and not for his fortune. That is what I am doing with my fiance next year to marry. I work hard, but she is not loving me for my money or growing up westernized in the US. We want to have beautiful Asian babies together.
    @Chr
    Daniel Henney leans more toward his Korean heritage and looks more Asian. Then you have another hapa like Jon Gosselin who is a bit more white washed. It is a hit or miss with some hapas looking more white and some more Asian. Here is one cool hapa actor, but he is a strong Asian man Russell Wong in a Ikea commercial with an beautiful Asian woman playing his wife. Yeah we should see more of this.

  92. @ N:
    ‘I don’t hate that guy’ is a long, long way away from ‘potential dating material’.
    All or nothing is a lot better than coming fourth or fifth every time. There’s very gain for coming second, let alone fourth or fifth when it comes to love.

    Maybe, but you could also look at it like this:
    – for a woman who won’t even countenance dating a black guy, it probably won’t matter how charming or wonderful he is.
    – for a woman whose attitude towards an Asian is “I don’t hate that guy”, he still has a chance if he can turn on the charm.

    Let’s not forget: attractive women marry so-so looking guys all the time. Even if she isn’t immediately drawn to a guy physically, other factors (charisma, intelligence, status, wealth) are extremely important.

    Btw I certainly don’t see the acquisition of WF as some special goal anyone should strive for; but I think it’s crazy to limit oneself to only one possibility.

  93. @es

    Lol, if you include Fobs, it’s literally billions of opportunity.

    And you only really need a few opportunities and take hold of one of them for a life fulfilled.

  94. WF left thinking AM wasn’t interested. On the contrary, post-facto we learn that AM found WF super cute.

    Did he explain why he didn’t do anything? Like, did he just miss the signal, or did he hold back for some other reason?

  95. Chr.,

    “The defacto goodlooking archetypical Asian dude has features that you find in many White men. Square jaw, eyebrow ridges and overall chiseled face. Asian men usually don’t have these features.”

    In YOUR mind. I know of plenty Korean, Mongolian, and Japanese guys that have that look. Paint them white and they would STILL look Asian.

  96. TZ,

    Can’t it be that he is not attracted to the WF. Why people make it sounds like AM are desperate for some white pussy? Most white women are not that attractive. Of course TV makes it seemed like all white women are attractive, but in reality, most of them are average at best. The attractive rarely hang around Asian people. Just being honest here.

  97. @ Harry:
    “Most white women are not that attractive. Of course TV makes it seemed like all white women are attractive, but in reality, most of them are average at best.”

    I know this may come as a shock to you, but not everyone in the world has the same opinion as you.

    Besides, as Tz said, “On the contrary, post-facto we learn that AM found WF super cute.”

  98. Among the attractiveness bell curve, I have noticed that there are, relative to Yellow women, a disproportionate amount of women of non-color at the at the far left (the ugly end) and at the far right (the most beatific). On the other hand, there are far more average-looking Yellow women (a larger mode statistic), relative to women of non-color, and fewer really ugly and really beautiful ones.

  99. @Chr – I don’t think only Asian’s that have “white” features are attractive. Basically any Asian guy that plays the lead male in a Korean drama ends up being HOT to me. You can’t say it’s b/c all male leads in a Korean drama have “white” features. I think it’s more to do w/ how they portray themselves (confidence) and going after who they want. Much to what TZ pointed out – that many AM’s don’t seem to take a CLEAR CUT initiative when getting the party started w/ a girl. Clear cut meaning, throwing the girl against the wall and kissing her! Not kinda holding her hand when walking down the street, and kinda placing your hand on her back.

    When I was in college, there was this Asian guy that liked me, so we started hanging out and going out to dinner and parties, etc… But he never made a move! I knew he liked me, or I thought he did in “that” way, but, let me repeat, he never made a move. Or if he did, he was sooooo subtle I didn’t notice. Once, I was at his house, lying ON HIS BED and just being lazy and he still didn’t make a clear cut move. His “move” was lying next to me. That’s it. I don’t think we ever even kissed even after months of what he probably thought was “dating.” If he simply just pounced on me w/ authority and the sense of “I’m taking you now!” I probably would have f’ed his brains out right then and there. But he didn’t which is a turn off. Girls want a guy that is the hunter and who takes control.

    @Seigfreid…. you’re saying White adds Spice to life? lemme guess… Seigfreid is white?

  100. “Not kinda holding her hand when walking down the street, and kinda placing your hand on her back.”

    I’m in an Asian country where it is the norm for the majority of guys to do this because Western style boldness alarms the women. Among the younger age group, anyway. I don’t even know why I mentioned this. I think I am trying to make the point that when it comes to dating etc a guy’s experiences in his younger days play a key role in shaping how he behaves and reacts.

  101. @es

    Apart from him not reading the last bit of tz’s comment, there’s really nothing wrong with the rest of his post. Most white women, like all other races, ARE average. It’s only media that pushes the white is beautiful concept.

  102. @linda

    Sure that guy could be pathetic, but what’s stopping you from saying ‘hey, I really like you’ if you’re really that interested? At a day of age where gender equality is promoted, why not? Why still cling that ‘oh girls like the hunter type mentality’?

  103. @ Linda:
    “many AM’s don’t seem to take a CLEAR CUT initiative when getting the party started w/ a girl. Clear cut meaning, throwing the girl against the wall and kissing her!”

    Throwing someone against the wall and kissing them might work. Or if you haven’t judged the situation correctly, it can get you into trouble.

    There is often a thin line between being a confident, take-charge, make-the-move kind of guy, and being an obnoxious sleazeball. And without wanting to turn this into a PUA thread again, PUA epitomizes that risk. PUAs are likely to get more positive results, but also more likely to be regarded as sleazy jerks.

    If you are a guy who thinks about stuff, rather than just doing it, this whole thing presents a quandary. How does one maintain that balance of being respectful and appropriate, yet have a ballsy approach to picking up babes?

    I guess it’s probably more likely that Asian guys are less assertive in this way. But it’s important to remember that it ain’t all bad. In my life there are lots of girls I could have made a move on when I met them – and probably could have got some kind of “result” out of it – but didn’t. Those girls have now become my friends, and in hindsight that’s probably for the best. I’ve got a male friend (white, as it happens) who is far more cocky and hits on women without a second thought. He’s racked up countless conquests (and possibly some STIs as well, mind you), but doesn’t seem to have many female friends.

    I know guys hate to be the guy who girls want to be friends with, rather than sleep with. But a ladies’ man’s reputation has both positive and negative sides to it. Surely there’s a middle ground.

  104. Many conservative Asian cultures place a high premium on boys living like neuters and not having female companionship until they fulfil social roles. This could mean being not allowed to have girlfriends until you become a doctor, and having your head constantly filled with all sorts of dysfunctional nonsense so that you follow true to the path set out for you.

    Maybe Linda’s male friend was one of those unfortunates handicapped by the people he trusted?

  105. Throwing someone against the wall and kissing them might work. Or if you haven’t judged the situation correctly, it can get you into trouble.

    Agreed. One of the later day PUA gurus, forget his name, presented the ‘tactic’ of “throwing the girl against the wall” (not literally doing that) as soon as she came into your apt and then kissing her. It’s highly likely he took that from movies with strong romantic/dark horse type leads, IMO.

    I always felt it was too risky to do on someone you hadn’t even kissed, even if it yielded high rewards. One of my oldschool PUA acquaintances did say it sounded good, though. Knowing him, though, my guess is that he would only do it to women that he somehow surmised would respond to it.

    There is often a thin line between being a confident, take-charge, make-the-move kind of guy, and being an obnoxious sleazeball. And without wanting to turn this into a PUA thread again, PUA epitomizes that risk. PUAs are likely to get more positive results, but also more likely to be regarded as sleazy jerks.

    ES:

    This is the kind of thing that exasperated me somewhat if I allowed myself to dwell o it: that respectfulness in men is mistaken for weakness for so many women.

    Sometimes boldness pays in spades in ways that are surprising. I remember being surprised at how a buddy of mine would put his hands on women’s thighs less than five minutes after meeting them and got no bad reactions (mostly positive or neutral ones)– and doubly so because he looked nerdy, his voice was nerdy, wasn’t that much taller than me, etc. The only thing I noticed it that the girls were usually sitting in a way that strangers couldn’t see too much.

    I ended up trying it myself, though only after establishing there was some attraction, and basically getting the same kind of reaction. It still kind of blew my mind that you could get there so fast.

  106. @N says “Sure that guy could be pathetic, but what’s stopping you from saying ‘hey, I really like you’ if you’re really that interested? At a day of age where gender equality is promoted, why not? Why still cling that ‘oh girls like the hunter type mentality’?”

    If a girl spends repeated occasions w/ a guy alone. It means the girl likes him or is on the fence about him. Just spending time w/ a guy is the girl’s way of giving the guy the opportunity to show her the hunter in him. If the girl is on the fence about this guy – if the guy takes the “i’m the hunter, I want to take you” move; trust me, the girl will get off the proverbial fence and start liking him even more.

    Gender equality shequality. It’s all good in the workforce and sports maybe, but not in romance. At the end of the day…… women are biologically wired to be attracted to a take charge kinda guy just like men are biologically wired to tune out their wives.

    The difference btwn having this tactic sleazy and not is that a guy does this to girls he actually likes and wants to be monogamous with. If he does this to every girl he meets, especially the girls’ girlfriends – he will be seen as a sleazy manwhore.
    And if you guys try this approach w/ one of your girl “friends” who you always kinda liked and she doesn’t respond back (right away). Trust me, she will start looking at you in a “gee….maybe I should? I didn’t know he was so…uh…masculine.” She will start thinking about it and will want to hang out again just to see if you will back it up.

  107. “At the end of the day…… women are biologically wired to be attracted to a take charge kinda guy just like men are biologically wired to tune out their wives.”

    !!! LOL

    “The difference btwn having this tactic sleazy and not is that a guy does this to girls he actually likes and wants to be monogamous with. If he does this to every girl he meets, especially the girls’ girlfriends – he will be seen as a sleazy manwhore.
    And if you guys try this approach w/ one of your girl “friends” who you always kinda liked and she doesn’t respond back (right away). Trust me, she will start looking at you in a “gee….maybe I should? I didn’t know he was so…uh…masculine.” She will start thinking about it and will want to hang out again just to see if you will back it up.”

    Thank you for the protip.

  108. @linda

    Lol, I’m pretty glad I don’t have to try – she didn’t need me to throw her against a wall to know I liked her.

    But it does help explain some of the behaviour of those borderline stalkers that doesn’t get the hint to backoff back off in college, maybe they were just demonstrating they are being ‘hunters’ and were told that’s what turn girls on.

  109. Nottyboy: It really depends on the girl and the situation. That’s why I don’t believe in PUA. It tries to turn dating into some sort of formula when it isn’t. Human behavior is much more complicated than that.

    Linda: I don’t know if a girl spends time alone with you means she is somewhat interested or on the fence. We’ve all heard of the “friend” zone. There will be girls who just use you as someone who will listen to her problems without the slightest interest in you. But, I can agree in that situation, if you are interested in a girl, give out your intensions early. Better to go down in flames now than suffer months and sometimes for some, years of nothing.

  110. @Moro:
    I understand. Just remember that when you say PUA and I say PUA, we are probably thinking different things.

    When I think PUA, I think about discussions like this one, which I still find insightful:

    “Cute”

    None of that kind of honest discussion (that I knew of or had available to me at the time from the mainstream) was available pre 2000 or I dare say pre 2002 outside of that newsgroup/scene.

  111. “Nottyboy: It really depends on the girl and the situation. That’s why I don’t believe in PUA. It tries to turn dating into some sort of formula when it isn’t. Human behavior is much more complicated than that”.

    It’s sole purpose is to teach men how to get laid instanteously!

  112. I was able to see 2 PUAs in action at my workplace just a block away, involving 2 Asian guys in separate incidences just this year alone. Which is a rarer sighting, PUAs in force, or UFOs? One was an East Asian guy and the other Indian. Both were hitting on a White girl using smooth talk. The East Asian dude was flat out rejected, and I turn my head to look at him, and he turn his head the other way looking pretty much embarrased.

  113. Chr: if PUA is only about getting laid, now come a lot of these gurus selling bootcamps are saying they teach you how to get into relationship? I guess it’s all about $. They’ll tell you anything to sell a product.

  114. PUA’s main flaw is in not understanding how unique each woman, and each situation really is. The idea that some “expert” can tell you when to throw some woman up against your apartment wall and begin kissing her mouth, before so much as a hello, is itself a sign that neither the teacher nor the student have the slightest clue of the non-uniform nature of the possible responses to such actions.

  115. @Moro:

    Chr: if PUA is only about getting laid, now come a lot of these gurus selling bootcamps are saying they teach you how to get into relationship? I guess it’s all about $. They’ll tell you anything to sell a product.

    You got it. The most it will do is get your foot in the door, but they can’t say that.

    @King:

    I can’t remember the post, because it was so long ago (and maybe I never read it, but had a friend tell me– can’t remember). Even so, I’m pretty sure that the ‘tactic’ involved a girl that was already out with you, and you were just taking home with you after an evening/day of sexual tension… Even then, I felt it was very risky, and still think so.

    My guess is that if the ‘guru’ in question was really pulling this off consistently, and not freaking the girls out, then he was aware of other factors and being selective in the context in which he tried that.

    It’s like you said in the other thread, though, someone who doesn’t have enough sense can read something like that and then do something dumb. They’ll probably do what you just described above.

  116. King – PUA’s main flaw is in not understanding how unique each woman, and each situation really is.

    It’s not a flaw, they see it as a numbers game, hit or miss. They see it as our tactics usually work on the bar/clubber bitches.

  117. PUA’s main flaw is in not understanding how unique each woman, and each situation really is.

    I do agree, of course. There is uniqueness in each situation, but there are also trends. There are things that people are sold, and are inculcated with as part of living in a society. That is why marketers can target certain movies to the genders and count on making a pretty penny. Those things that people believe in, however irrational, are what one can leverage to influence others.

    Going back to the ‘tactic’, like I mentioned, you can probably find that in many romance novels, and movies, etc (I recommend a book called “Dangerous Men, Adventurous Women, which was also recommended in ASF). These things are sold to a large number of women, and they buy into it (just look at Linda– not throwing a barb at her, btw :)), which is why in the right context they can work.

    Same way that men are sold certain things concerning women…

  118. @ Linda:
    If a girl spends repeated occasions w/ a guy alone. It means the girl likes him or is on the fence about him. Just spending time w/ a guy is the girl’s way of giving the guy the opportunity to show her the hunter in him. If the girl is on the fence about this guy – if the guy takes the “i’m the hunter, I want to take you” move; trust me, the girl will get off the proverbial fence and start liking him even more.

    The difference btwn having this tactic sleazy and not is that a guy does this to girls he actually likes and wants to be monogamous with. If he does this to every girl he meets, especially the girls’ girlfriends – he will be seen as a sleazy manwhore.
    And if you guys try this approach w/ one of your girl “friends” who you always kinda liked and she doesn’t respond back (right away). Trust me, she will start looking at you in a “gee….maybe I should? I didn’t know he was so…uh…masculine.” She will start thinking about it and will want to hang out again just to see if you will back it up.

    Again, this is all fine for if a woman does actually like the guy in that way. But sometimes people do actually just want to be friends. And in a lot of cases, that behaviour is going to ruin the friendship. Perhaps it’s a risk worth taking, but it won’t always be.

    This is one of the difficult things about being a guy and having to be “the hunter”. The same advice that works for guys who are naturally good-looking or charismatic is often just not going to work for guys who are not so blessed.

    I think SNL explained it best:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsZlLDGs604

  119. Eurasian: LOL! I was just about to post that SNL clip but thought it may be too mean. The problem at least I seeing reading some of these PUA message boards, you got guys who gain this “false” confidence that only makes them seem weirder to girls. The PUA companies won’t tell a 2 to go chase after women at his level. The PUA companies will tell them to follow their formula which will help them get that 10. I can only imagine how strange it must be to have a 2 declare himself as the next Brad Pitt to a 10. Most often it ends up being a friend zone thing which can really suck for a guy who wants to be more than friends. Some talk about you should make friends with a girl so you can hit on her friends. Probably but you can also get the same result making friends with guys. I guess the key is to go out and make friends with people. No need for this weird PUA line stuff.

  120. @ Chr..

    It’s not a flaw, they see it as a numbers game, hit or miss. They see it as our tactics usually work on the bar/clubber bitches.”

    In that case, you might as well just go with, “I think you’re hot. Do you want to get out out of here?” If you try that enough times, a small percentage will say eventually say, yes.

  121. King: Exactly. That being the case, why do you need a bootcamp? You can do the same just by yourself. This bootcamp stuff is almost like paying someone to be your friend, to nurse you through talking to random girls. That’s what you’re paying for. I still don’t know if the, “I think you’re hot” line will work on 8-10 if you are a 2. Maybe, if you’re lucky I guess. I remember trying to read some of those PUA tips. So much information to make anyone’s head explode.

  122. @Linda Yes I’m white. You can’t make a dish without salt.Salt makes everything taste good.

  123. “@Linda Yes I’m white. You can’t make a dish without salt.Salt makes everything taste good.”

    Only when it is in minority to that which it is seasoning.

  124. @siegfried and king

    Hmmm…soya sauce, hoisin sauce, oyster sauce, fish sauce, sesame sauce, peanut sauce, chili sauce, vinegar, miso, wasabi, sugar.

    Never ever use salt if you’re stir-frying meat, you’ll make the meat dry and tough.

  125. you guys are hilarious!

    Anyways, @ ES – about the whole – it’s a fine line and you don’t want to ruin a friendship w/ one of your friend-girls thing…

    Keep in mind that all women imagine themselves to be in a relationship w/ just about anyone, not just Mr. 10 brad pitt. W/ nearly every guy that she meets, no matter what he looks like, she will daydream a quasi-relationship w/ this guy and see how the picture looks. Now, if said guy is only a 3 or 4, the first picture of their future relationship she imagines may only last a nanosecond b/4 she closes the door. HOWEVER, if said guy has confidence rating of 10 and is chivalrous and pleasant and funny, the girl will always re-open the door to her future quasi-relationship daydream and edit it. The girl will keep editing her picture in the guy’s favor as long as he doesn’t royally screw up (like hooks up w/ her bestfriend or says she’s chubby). Now the difference btwn said guy getting past the girl’s quasi-daydream-relationship test and actually being in a real-life relationship is making the I’m the hunter move after a little trust is gained. Even if the girl doesn’t reciprocate right back right away (c’mon, we don’t want to appear easy) and says she just wants to remain “friends.” Trust me, she will continue to hang out w/ said guy to see if he backs up his move and she will be thinking “hmmm, maybe I should?” and will see what else the guy will do to convince her he’s her man. Now, I think overall a guy can convince a girl to be in a relationship w/ him easier than a girl convincing a guy.

    So for guys that don’t want to lose all their friend-girls. (really? really?….) You will have them as friends until you lose them anyways when they get married,….. to their hunter types.

    btw, soy sauce if very salty already.

  126. Chr.,

    “How does Daniel Henney look more Asian when the other Daniel obviously is your typical pure bred Korean dude.”

    Daniel Henney does favor his Korean side even though he looks mixed.

    “Daniel Dae Kim”

    If you think Daniel Dae Kim is the typical Korean look, you really haven’t seen many Koreans.

  127. Asian women, in my opinion, are on average more attractive than women of no color. On the other hand, I think women of no color are, again in my opinion, on average, more likely to be very attractive or very ugly. So, in my estimation, it is a wash.

  128. Linda: In my experiences, a girl knows pretty quickly whether a guy is mate material or friend material. I think it is wrong for any guy to be a friend with a woman if he has ulterior motives of being with her. Most instances, he’s just setting himself up for lots of hurt when that girl finds her mate. I knew a very pretty WF once who told me she had a AM friend who was her best friend. They slept in the same bed together sometimes but nothing sexual. She told me she knew deep down he pined for her. and would listen to her problems. Also, at the time, she had a steady boyfriend who had a job he had to go away for months at a time. In the end, she ended up marrying her boyfriend. I would hate to be in her friend’s shoes. There should be a a name for that type of AM. Maybe Passive Friend Asian Male? PFAM? It’s fine to make friends with girls, you can most of the time meet other girls through that. Just don’t think it’s like the movies where a girl will eventually fall for you. I’d say 99% of the time, it doesn’t end up happening that way. That time spent could be used to find someone who can be your mate.

  129. “If you think Daniel Dae Kim is the typical Korean look, you really haven’t seen many Koreans”.

    Daniel Dae Kim has the typical Korean phenotype, wide cheekbones and small eyes. I don’t see anything unique about him to say “wait, he doesn’t look Korean”. He has a hardlined face that a lot of Asian dudes with softer feminine features might not have, but he looks very Korean no doubt.

    Daniel Henney is definately not your typical Korean guy. No way! If anything, he could be one of those really chiseled goodlooking Chinese guys. Now the Chinese have been fornicating with Caucasians throughout the different dynasties to create the facial diversity you see in their population. It started with the Turkic Huns (Xiongnu), then the Arabs and Persians to some of the European populations of late.

  130. Then you have this guy, another Korean Hapa – Dennis O’Neil.

    Dennis O’Neil

    He could pass as a goodlooking Chinese dude, again because of the Caucasian features.

  131. I thought it’s a bit strange that Linda talks about K-drama stars and yet the first name she mentioned was Henney, who is very caucasian looking. Dye his hair blonde and put on blue contact lens and it’s likely he can pass as a normal white dude.

    From a guy’s perspective of what good looking Korean actors look like:

    Hyun Bin:

    http://www.allkpop.com/2011/06/hyun-bins-late-autumn-is-making-its-way-to-the-united-states

    Phillip Lee (who also happen is Asian American)
    http://www.allkpop.com/2011/02/park-min-young-and-lee-philip-model-for-buckaroo-jeans

    Lee Min-Ho
    http://www.allkpop.com/2011/09/park-min-young-talks-about-kissing-scene-with-boyfriend-lee-min-ho

  132. “Daniel Dae Kim has the typical Korean phenotype, wide cheekbones and small eyes. I don’t see anything unique about him to say “wait, he doesn’t look Korean”.”

    It’s funny how you choose the oddest looking Korean to be representative of the Korean phenotype. Sure, I would never mistake him as another ethnicity, but that’s like saying Lucy Liu represents the typical Chinese phenotype. Since the Korean Wave, a lot of people like to put down Korean looks due to secret envy and jealousy. You sound like one of those people. I don’t see Chinese as having bigger eyes than the rest of the Asian population. The only people who would have bigger eyes than average would be Japanese or SE Asians.

    “Daniel Henney is definately not your typical Korean guy. No way! If anything, he could be one of those really chiseled goodlooking Chinese guys. Now the Chinese have been fornicating with Caucasians throughout the different dynasties to create the facial diversity you see in their population. It started with the Turkic Huns (Xiongnu), then the Arabs and Persians to some of the European populations of late.”

    You’re really showing your insecurity now. Henney definitely looks more Korean than Chinese. I don’t understand why some people have to claim good looking Koreans as their own. It’s an inferiority complex. Not only are you a whitewashed Asian, you have to put down other Asian groups to feel good about your own. I know of no Chinese celebrity that looks like Henney. I do, however, know a few Koreans that resemble him in real life.

  133. @ Linda :
    “So for guys that don’t want to lose all their friend-girls. (really? really?….) You will have them as friends until you lose them anyways when they get married,….. to their hunter types.”

    The thing is, at the end of the day we generally want just one girlfriend, and lots of “friend-girls”. I’m not sure it’s worth playing “the hunter” with some girl who could otherwise be a valuable friend, unless there’s a very good chance of it going somewhere. (Playing “the hunter” with someone random is different, since if you screw up you’ll probably never see them again.)

    I mentioned upthread that I have plenty of female friends who I could have hit on when I first met them but decided to play it safe instead. In hindsight, I believe that was the right decision, because while I might have got “something” out of it had I played the hunter, it wouldn’t have got that far (dating for a short while, a brief encounter perhaps), and I probably wouldn’t have them as friends.

    So for me, when meeting someone with whom I’ve got along well but is not overwhelmingly compelling me to make a move, I’ve preferred to be respectful, confident and a little flirty; but not going “full hunter”.

    Of course, when I met my current partner of 3 years, I went “full hunter”, because it was obvious that there was potential for something major.

  134. @ ES – so you basically are agreeing w/ me that to get the girl, you have to play “full hunter.” And if you played “full hunter” w/ any of the girls you semi-liked (but wanted them just as friends), you would have gotten them too.
    So what you did/do supports the fact that it has less to do w/ looks and more to do w/ confidence and hunter mentality that girls will cross the line from friendship to romance.

    @jstele – yeah, I’ve seen more Korean guys that have traits similar to Henney than to Daniel Dae Kim. It’s like Chr is trying to say if some Asian guy is hot, he can’t be an average Korean joe? wtf?

  135. I only have a hunter mentality when under the influence, at night, or during unfortunate testosterone surges. Is that okay?

  136. Linda,

    “@jstele – yeah, I’ve seen more Korean guys that have traits similar to Henney than to Daniel Dae Kim. It’s like Chr is trying to say if some Asian guy is hot, he can’t be an average Korean joe? wtf?”

    And to top it off, he says it’s due to the white admixture in the Chinese population. I know that compared to other East Asians that Chinese have more European genes. There was a study on this, but this is ridiculous. He’s just hating on Koreans because he has an inferiority complex. Go to Korea and you’ll see the great diversity in Korean looks, not just what you see in K-town. You don’t know how Koreans can and do look until you’ve been to Korea and lived there for a few years. Chinese tend to have softer features than other East Asians. The good looking ones I can think of are Tony Leung, Edison Chen, etc. Not what one would considered chiseled, but still good looking. If you want to find more chiseled features, you can find them in Mongolian, Japanese, and Korean men. So that argument is just so flawed. I know that some non-Koreans like to hate on Korean men because of their access to Korean women due to being co-ethnics :)

  137. @Linda:
    so you basically are agreeing w/ me that to get the girl, you have to play “full hunter.”
    Well, I probably could have acted like a shy nerd and would have got my current partner anyway, but that’s due to circumstances.

    And if you played “full hunter” w/ any of the girls you semi-liked (but wanted them just as friends), you would have gotten them too.
    Possibly, I don’t know, it could just be my ego telling me that! But playing the hunter in such a way makes it more of an all-or-nothing proposition. Once you try hard to get your mack on with someone, it’s unlikely to lead to being friends afterwards – either dating or nothing (since if you fail, it leads to awkwardness and perhaps the perception of sleaziness). I have a pretty short attention span, and there are a lot of people in life that I feel attraction to, but realistically I know that in a dating sense I’d likely get bored of them quite quickly. Yet it is possible to have a valuable friendship with them.

    So what you did/do supports the fact that it has less to do w/ looks and more to do w/ confidence and hunter mentality that girls will cross the line from friendship to romance.
    I prefer to think it’s because I am just so damn hot!
    But yes, I certainly agree confidence is extremely important. But hunter mentality has its drawbacks too (in that generally, if you don’t get the girl, then you won’t be friends with her either), which is why I understand that a lot of guys are cautious. It all depends; for me, I have a lot of female friends and really value that. I’m not the kind of guy who just wants to hang out with the fellas all the time. But that obviously doesn’t describe everyone.

  138. I don’t have an weak complex. Let’s be honest, the average Korean Joe doesn’t look anything remotely like Daniel Henney or Dennis Oh. You could at least say this to be true when it comes KA guys.

    Who leads the Asian cosmetic surgery trend? The last time I checked, it was the Koreans and the Japanese, not we the Chinese. Yes, why do the pure Mongoloids lust after White ppl more? The Chinese aren’t as gungho about looking White than their other 2 East Asian counterparts.

    @jstele – And how does this guy who is not mixed, a typical Korean guy?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9n_ULlSIpY

    If anything, he looks a lot like some of the Southern Chinese guys I’ve known. And he is considered super hot mainly because he looks Caucasian. He reminds a lot of Yip Sai Wing from the famous Hong Kong Rock Band “BEYOND”.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89se6qw9ODs&feature=related

  139. Chr.,

    “I don’t have an weak complex. Let’s be honest, the average Korean Joe doesn’t look anything remotely like Daniel Henney or Dennis Oh. You could at least say this to be true when it comes KA guys.”

    The fact that you have to say anything about Korean looks says it all. There are a lot of Chinese who hate on Koreans for getting plastic surgery due to jealousy from the Korean Wave. The Chinese media has sensationalized these reports out of national pride, making up stories of surgery where there hasn’t been any.

    “Who leads the Asian cosmetic surgery trend? The last time I checked, it was the Koreans and the Japanese, not we the Chinese. Yes, why do the pure Mongoloids lust after White ppl more? The Chinese aren’t as gungho about looking White than their other 2 East Asian counterparts.”

    Well, you certainly are one Chinese who loves to brag about how Chinese look so white. Read your previous posts. You can’t backtrack now. You keep making these statements comparing Chinese to Koreans or other Asians, which just shows the deep inferiority complex that you have in regards to your own looks. Stop comparing yourself and maybe you would have more credibility.

    “@jstele – And how does this guy who is not mixed, a typical Korean guy?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9n_ULlSIpY

    If anything, he looks a lot like some of the Southern Chinese guys I’ve known. And he is considered super hot mainly because he looks Caucasian. He reminds a lot of Yip Sai Wing from the famous Hong Kong Rock Band “BEYOND”.”

    I love how some trolls like to say that the goodlooking Korean actors look more like their nationality than Korean. You wouldn’t know, but like to imagine that he looks more Chinese to prop up your own ego about the beauty of your own ethnic community. You don’t see a lot of Koreans bragging about how white they look. In fact, I prefer Korean beauty to white beauty. You don’t know about how Koreans look even if you’ve been to K-town a couple times. So keep dreaming, Mr. “Chinese look white so are better looking than other Asians”, you really have an inferiority complex and it shows deeply. LOL.

  140. jstele – Just to let you know, a lot of your people mistaken me for one of their own. They tell me I don’t like the average Chinese. I don’t need to be jealous of Koreans. This being said, so I do look White then?

    Let’s get real honest here, Asians believe that having eurocentric features make them better looking. Unless you want to say having a flat face with shallow eyesockets and single eyelids is more attractive.

  141. “I thought it’s a bit strange that Linda talks about K-drama stars and yet the first name she mentioned was Henney, who is very caucasian looking. Dye his hair blonde and put on blue contact lens and it’s likely he can pass as a normal white dude”.

    Just love it when Asians get delusional about how Daniel Henney is more of a representative of Koreans than Daniel Dae Kim.

  142. I’m black, afro-colombian for being exact, in my country interracial relationships are not so common as USA, however black men / white-mestizo women couples are the most common IR unions here, in my personal case I don’t care about white women, I feel low attraction to them, you guys can’t take this interracial issue so seriously

  143. @ Jstele,

    Lol, don’t bother arguing or debating with Chr. The guy has complexes he’s not even aware of. Sometimes the most humane thing to do for the mentally unwell is to give them a safe place to vent and live out their otherwise handicapped lives away from society.

  144. “Sometimes the most humane thing to do for the mentally unwell is to give them a safe place to vent and live out their otherwise handicapped lives away from society”.

    Raguel, I’m sure you’ve seen many lunatics, yourself included, come here to post nonsensical things to vent and live out an insane society.

  145. “Just love it when Asians get delusional about how Daniel Henney is more of a representative of Koreans than Daniel Dae Kim.”

    Inferiority complex. Yawn.

  146. @Juan Black Men, who are tall talk and bulit like a linebacker, always date the hottest multo or half white Black Women. Those types of Black men are successful with women.

  147. “Most Black men dates real hot half black women.”

    Actually, according to 2010 Census figures, MOST Black men (over 85%) marry Black women, so I assume that they also date them before they marry them—we’re probably talking about roughly the same dating rates. So, Siegfried never bothered to look it up, which of course is to be expected from Sieg.

    However, even at that, the IR rate with Black men and White women (in particular) is higher than it would be under normal and natural circumstances. But there is an obvious forbidden fruit motivator to consider. If you say to a group of men for hundreds of years:

    1) These women are better than you
    2) These women have more worth more than your women (an you)
    3) You are NOT to EVER approach these women romantically
    4) We will KILL you horribly if you try
    5) These are our women, they ONLY like us!

    What do you think will happen after centuries of this brainwashing?
    Would you be surprised if (once the divisions between the races was relaxed) a higher than normal percentage of Black men started going for women who were White, or as close to White as they could get?

    Bear in mind… not the majority… just more than would seem normal.
    So, that has nothing to do with White women’s “superior beauty,” but is instead based on White men’s past arrogance, and brutal sexual jealousy .

  148. King, I was referring to that most black men will date mulatto black women. They are extremely hot. Besides, didn’t white men got together with black women in New Orleans. Had to do a paper on it in high school when we were studying the south in my American History class.
    The White women that I seen with Black Guys aren’t worth looking at. They ate extremely fat or ugly as hell. But when I see White Men with Black Women, the women are usually hot.

  149. King: I’m not sure if that’s an excuse, 100 years. Not saying I’ll understand what BMs go through but if what you said were the case, wouldn’t this apply to BFs also? I remember how Ice-T was saying how he gets much more grief from the black community for him married to a white woman than he does from the white community. I’m sure you can say the same with AM. They weren’t allowed to date or marry WFs either back in the day. Is that any reason to worship them now like the PUAs? And, I agree somewhat, people, not white, especially Asians (both F and M) and BM tend to date WM or WF who aren’t as attractive as they are.

  150. @ Moroboshi

    No, it should definitely not be used as an excuse.
    No Black guy should be saying, “I like White womenz because I’m brainwashed.”

    However, it does explain why a relatively small percentage of Black guys (when compared to the whole) do fall into this pattern. As for BW vs. BM on this issue, you have to remember that men and women are coming from different places. If a Black man thinks, maybe the White woman he’s dating might turn out to be a bigot… what do you think will be his prescription to that problem? On the other hand, if a Black woman ends up with a White man who is a bigot, it may not be quite as easy for her to fix in the same way.

    If a Black woman is going to get with a White man, she’s thinking she REALLY needs to feel like she trusts him 100%. If a Black man gets with a white woman, he’s thinking, she BETTER not let me find out she’s racist –not even a little bit!

  151. @ Sieg

    “King, I was referring to that most black men will date mulatto black women.”

    “Mulatto” is an archaic term meaning a person of mixed race (B&W) parentage. Obviously “most” Black men could not be dating a mulatto because there obviously wouldn’t be enough of them to go around. Besides, being mixed race does not mean that you’ll be attractive, and most people want to be with an attractive person, whatever their racial makeup.

    I believe the system in New Orleans that you are referring to was called “Placage.” Anne Rice wrote a book which included some details about the Placage Ball and a movie was later made of it.

    http://www.reelartsy.com/2010/11/feast-of-all-saints.html

  152. I was talking about women like Tyra Banks and Holly Barry. I have no ideal the number biracial or “happa” there are in this country.
    You have to check the 2010 census.

  153. “Besides, being mixed race does not mean that you’ll be attractive, and most people want to be with an attractive person, whatever their racial makeup”.

    King, do you agree that Asian men are generally viewed as less attractive in America?

  154. Chr: I just think that’s a self defeatist attitude to believe you’re not attractive. It’s almost like HBD. Let’s for shits and giggles say it’s true (which it’s not!) why on earth would people who don’t benefit from it believe or follow it? Okay lets say Asian males aren’t considered attractive, it’s not going to get you anywhere constantly talking about it, seriously. It’s sad. I myself believe anyone can be attractive. Most of the time it takes work and the ones complaining are the ones who aren’t working on themselves whether confidence, grooming, etc. If you can’t find a woman, you definitely either are looking at the wrong place or your standards are too damn high. I have no idea what you are talking about Asian Males not seen as attractive. No one in my family isn’t with someone. Talking about cousins from both sides. Not everyone is attractive or what the public perceives as being attractive.

  155. @ King – Would you agree that American women of all races generally perceive Asian men as less appealing than other men?

  156. @King I thought Trya Bank was half white because of her light eyes which are real no contacts. She must have some White blood in her. Hell! She’s hot! Those big lips. I wouldn’t mind sleeping with her. Sorry Black guys.

  157. @ Moro – @Moro – I’m sure you know by now that there is this defeatist attitude coming from many Asian guys for quite some time already. You read it in the different websites, blogs, etc… No one seems to have a solid clue as to why Asian men are disavantaged when it comes to interracial dating. Or maybe there aren’t any disadvantages at all, and these guys are just whiners without a cause. Or perhaps, there are real issues that need to be addressed, and we are either in denial or ignorant about them. A good question to ask is why are Asian men desexualized in America. It just doesn’t happen out of the blue, there must be a reason for it. Don’t get me started that Asians are an economic threat. You can be the bad guy and still be popular with women.

    Some say it’s the media that work against Asian men, some say it’s this and that. I just think that in the Western hemisphere, most Asian guys are ignored, and don’t fit into it’s multiracial/cultural fabric mold, and it’s mainly because of the way they look. When you are perceived as less attractive, and thus less inviting, there are obviously many disadvantages that work against you, wouldn’t you agree?

  158. @king

    What siegfried meant is that there must be some white genes in them to make q black girl beautiful.

  159. @N Learn to read! I was talking about her light eyes. Black people, unless they’re mixed with Whites, do not have light eyes.

  160. @ N

    Hahaha! Yeah he wouldn’t be the first to come up with that non-logic.

    Actually, it is a pretty common misunderstanding that any time someone around the world has lighter colored eyes that it means that they have European ancestry. The color of the pupil is determined by how much melanin is effecting the pigmentation which are in turn, programmed by single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs). The original human eye was almost certainly dark brown, and remains the most dominant eye color, worldwide today. So, all other color variations mutated from the original brown pupil. The mutation is more common in White people, particularly from the Baltic Sea and Scandinavian regions. However these variations are not isolated to ONLY White people, there are a small minority of Blacks develop light-colored eyes as well without the help of White genes.

  161. @king and N I like my black women to be light brown skins and pretty eyes like Rihanna, Beyonce and Trya Banks. Note this! I donot care what you think of this. Whatever it be my preferances for Asian women or my requirements for black women. I will NOT pander to your whims to be political correct.

  162. @king

    And you forgot to mention the colored contact lens that forms part of the arsenal of Asian girls.

    I never understood the fascination with light colored eyes and its preceived beauty over dark brown eyes.

    I definitely the dark brown eyes that I’ve looked into are amazingly beautiful.

  163. @king and N I like my black women to be light brown skins and pretty eyes like Rihanna, Beyonce and Trya Banks.

    I bet SiegHeil likes to accompany that with some fava beans and a nice chianti. *slurp slurp*

  164. @ N, ha! yeah, that trend is thankfully died out in LA (for the most part) are people still wearing those things in other places?

    @ Notty
    Yikes! Hannibal Siegfried???? “It rubs the lightening cream on its skin”

  165. @King and Nottyboy You guys are making me angry. Make no mistake about it, my primary goal is Asian women. When I get one, I’ll make a big production out of it. I’ll French kiss her in Chinatown right in front of a restaurant where everybody can see.
    I have better things to do then to talk to you clowns about my lovelife.

  166. Silence Siegfried!!!!

    You will do nothing of the kind!!!!

    I absolutely FORBID you to french kiss a Chinese girl in the middle of Chinatown (for your own good) You only wish to be provocative!

  167. King dear,
    Why don’t we leave this very disturbed man and go get ourselves something to eat…? There’s this new place in……

  168. @catwalq

    Siegfried’s not disturbed, he’s quite an outstanding representative of his demographic.

    We’ve all met and have to deal with more than a few siegfrieds in our lives.

  169. yes, what a delightful notion, Catwalk… I could certainly use the refreshment… but is it safe to leave him raving?

    I would not want it said that we let pass a lunatic for want of refreshment.

  170. Siegfried, I hope you find your special asian someone. I dont know why people think fetishes are so bad.

  171. @ Chen

    They’re not so harmful when it’s just one person with a fetish, but it can become oppressive, when a large enough segments of society begin to follow certain fetishist practices.

  172. @N, i don’t think i can handle too many Siegfrieds in one lifetime or Dalis for that matter. Too exhausting
    @Chen: you know what, fetishes aren’t bad. But it is kind of odd always viewing a group of people in a sexual light; kind of disturbing. I think Asian women want to be able to interract with people without them being viewed in the “bedroom” light. Don’t you think? You wouldn’t like it if women always oggled and assumed you would put out, by virtue of your race. Or that you would automatically appreciate advances, just because they were made towards you
    @King: don’t worry, someone already called the medics. He’ll be fine in a couple of hours when the dart’s toxins wear off

  173. of course having a fetish is not the healthiest foundation to start a relationship but thats not to say a meaningful relationship cant develop.

    a women oogling me and making advances without me having to do anything? are you kidding me? I would love that. Right now I support anything that increases my chances of getting laid.

  174. @ Siegfried,

    What’s wrong with your fucking English? Why do you write like this? Are you retarded?

    @ Chen,

    Are you retarded too?

  175. Of course if you ignore the misogyny which I don’t agree with but his criticism of PUA is dead on.

  176. Linda’s point about a man willing to “throw the girl against the wall and kiss her” is at the heart of the confusion that AMs (or more broadly, many modern guys of every color, actually!) suffer in figuring out relationships—confusion which is probably brought on by a barrage of different signals from different corners of popular culture: PUA, friendzoning, and feminism. Somehow treating women respectfully (as we have been taught by modern feminism) gets translated into weakness that kills off any romantic potential. On the other hand, the bold and aggressive angle still gets you shot down a lot. At least the way I was raised, it really does feel horribly impolite and inconsiderate, and it certainly does not feel genuine when I try it. Perhaps they can see through it, so I should “work on my game” as PUAs would have it. But do we really want to live in a society where you win love by how well you can fool someone, or dazzle people with smooth-but-actually-empty talk?

    So therefore to reach my point—why, exactly, can’t you date your friends? Why is the convention now that we put our genitalia in the hands of near-complete strangers? If it is personality you seek, how is it possible to figure that out in a short time? I do understand the fear of the kind of creepy type that tries to get into your pants by, essentially, bribery (gifts and compliments with “strings attached”), and I’ve tried very much to not be that person. You get to know each other better and try to see what develops, and be unafraid to act when that chemistry develops. I feel a lot more genuine doing so, anyway, and it did finally in fact land me my current relationship. Yet some other people purposely try to kill it off, because they felt some snap judgement 5 minutes into the interaction, and God forbid that they’d change their minds now a month in.

    Before you say anything about “Hey, you succeeded, so why do you care?”, or “Ohh, you don’t need those kinds of people,” first, I feel it has been a long and difficult (at times, needlessly so) road for me in the dating game, so I feel a sense of obligation to society to help make it easier for others (perhaps my Asian-ness again? haha). Nobody said it should be an easy road, true, but a rocky road is still preferable to a rocky road that’s deliberately been littered with broken bottles. As for not needing such people, it really is the case that some people are in fact otherwise good people, were it not for this one flaw of not being tolerant enough of non-immediate dazzling. If they would just open their mind a crack more, it would be fine. So I feel it is important to point out what we could do with these kinds of “fence-sitters.”We can let the truly bitchy hook up with the truly sleazy—they aren’t ever going to be won over, so we definitely don’t need those. Is it really an exercise in self-pity to point out where improvement can be made outside of ourselves? To not simply accept the answer of “You have trouble dating? Tough!” Does this sound too idealistic?

    Perhaps it may be. But if we take out greater tolerance from the equation, it simply brings us back to the actual topic of this thread—of perceived attractiveness of the race. Chr..’s observation (Asian men are simply viewed as unattractive by women of all races) is very important to take a note of, precisely because of these 5-minute snap judgements. I don’t think his observations are all in his head, because, very bluntly, if judgments of datability happen more or less immediately, then external, cultural factors and prejudices MUST play a critical role. If we can’t even get past the starting gate, it doesn’t matter how much confidence or accomplishments we have. I think this is more than mere whining, LOL.

    Finally, about the guy who was secretly pining away for a taken girl and about her actually letting him sleep in the same bed with him, all I can say is, ugh. Come on, really? I may disagree with the PUAs, but they are right in this case, on the subject they refer to as “one-itis”—a singular obsession that lets them be put in some horribly humiliating situations.

  177. Cdawg, I think that what people term as “respectful” is actually a symptom of psychological emasculation and neutering.

    For example, you would be made aware of certain things that other guys do which are obviously lousy, and bad. Stalking, persistent sexual harassment and sexual remarks, etc etc. Rape even. These things are obviously bad, but the way discourse is structured, it is as if there is only one alternative to these behaviors and that is to be as asexual around women as possible.

    This state is unnatural. Open your eyes and take a good look around you. Men and women hook up with one another all the time, as long as they mingle. The sexual drive within men and women is strong. Girls gossip about boys and try to get their attention. When they are older they start hooking up with guys at the workplace, professional circles or social circles.

    The “friend zone” has less to do with women than it does with men. Guys who are “friendzoned” place THEMSELVES in that friend zone. They come from this idea that the best way to get a girl they really like is to be as “safe”, easily available and always reliable as possible. That’s not how attraction works. It’s not enough. A woman could also want to be pursued, she could want to flirt, she could want to be made horny, or dominated, or teased, she might want to feel jealousy, she might want to be awed by you and what you can do. She might want someone she can parade to her friends as her “mate”. Being a “friend” only does not fulfil all these other needs. This is the reason women do not date friends.

    Now, what you mentioned about interested parties trying to kill off budding romances. Make no mistake about it. They acted against you with PREJUDICE. What they were trying to say to the girl was, “Who you hook up with should meet OUR standards”. Could such a prejudice stem from the way Asian men are perceived in America? Absolutely. The key word is perceived.

    As for Chr? ROFL! He’s sharp enough to recognize propaganda but he’s too weak to resist it. He’s absorbed much of these sollipsistic white reasonings and excuses and he wants more Asians to conform to that mold to fit that fantasy within his mind that life for Asians will then become better. Much of what he has written has been about OTHER Asian men doing what he himself does not have the balls or inclination to do.

    And the way he write too, ROFL. Very irritating. He doesn’t really have the balls to come out and say what he wants to say, so he loves to play coy with his words.

    LAME

  178. @King

    Look what I find!

    http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/thinking-tech/want-blue-eyes-new-laser-surgery-makes-it-happen-video/9187?tag=nl.e550

    “The eyes are the window to the soul,” Homer tells KTLA. “A blue eye is not opaque. You can see deeply into it and a brown eye is very opaque. I think there is something very meaningful about this idea of having open windows to the soul.”

    That’s probably one of the most bullsh*t thing I’ve read for a while

  179. Five bucks says this lawyer does not undergo the procedure himself, and that he is targeting Asians with this novel use of technology of which the dangers are not fully understood.

  180. @Raguel,

    Good explanation of the friends-vs.-dating issue that isn’t tainted by either PUA motivations (“Get in her pants fast, fast, fast!! If she friendzones you, you deserve it for not wanting it enough!!!“) or by women who refer to things like “destiny,” thinking that if it isn’t apparent immediately, it will never be, because it’s apparently written in stone somewhere that it “wasn’t meant to be” (the teleological argument), as if they had some psychic ability to detect that or something, and it trumps any other good qualities that might generate that spark.

    Confusion reigns because we’re still sort of in the middle or reformulating gender roles, and people being unclear about how much of the lead the man needs to take. It’s frustrating taking the lead and being told “Hey this isn’t 1490, I can do it myself! Pfft!” and then soon after, “What the hell? You need to take action and be a man!” Its interaction with racial/cultural issues just magnifies the confusion. And yes, I think it has been framed as a false dichotomy—either you’re a criminal or you gotta be as asexual as possible. When I opened my eyes and looked around, I saw the wrong thing—that any flirtatious behavior of guys around girls was at best impolite. That is how I was brought up—I think my Chinese culture has something to do with it. (Advice on courtship? “It will happen! Don’t worry.”) So when put together with the already present invisibility and expected asexuality of AM (or as Akrypti put it in the new thread on a female take, evilness of AM… as if the dichotomy actually holds true for us!), it’s the perfect storm—Asianness has become another bad quality that trumps all the good qualities.

  181. I haven’t got a clue what most of you are talking about. It all sounds very clever and I congratulate you all on being highly intelligent and articulate. Some really interesting theories and well written. I really should be sleeping but I got up for a pee and don’t want to sleep.

    I will chuck in my tuppence worth, without thinking it through properly. Definitely not academic standard.

    1 I definitely have hang ups about being an “AM” (hehe – I have discovered a new term). I feel sexually disadvantaged and even more so, having read all this stuff on the internet! I am a bit older now, but in younger days was quite a good looking lad. But a mixture of Chinese reservation and manners mean that I was always at the back of the queue for women. I had concepts that just do not work in an individualistic Western society. I also became a Christian but this did not stop me basically fancying hot white females. Probably made it worse because now I had loads of issues to deal with. Chinese questions of honour and Christian values which I probably don’t express very well.Eventually, I decided to be a bit more expressive about my desires, rather late in life.

    I have never ever had a Chinese girlfriend. Haven’t got a clue what it is like at all. I have dated a few white women tho’, mostly a lot hotter than me. Long legged beautiful blonde (subsequently found it was out of a bottle) – possibly the girl I should have married. Things went on for years. I have pursued black girls as well and got off with one with great breasts. I have actually been pursued by women I would say were pretty attractive but maybe not super hot save for an ex Vogue model who was demanding that I do the deed. (I didn’t). She had been a national level glamour model also. Beautiful breasts. That latter thing was a short dalliance but my last steady girlfriend is very long legged with huge breasts and a very pretty face. Really. She has started modelling and did well in a local beauty contest recently.

    I am also pretty short – never realised how short I was until the latter days of Uni – I probably thought that white people were too tall! I love tall white women and was flirting with one quite a bit whilst dancing with her. Maybe not a model in terms of looks but really desirable. Never realised that she would fancy me but at the end of evening, she jumped me. Then there was a Cindy Crawford lookalike, about five foot ten who demanded I take her out and was quite pushy, which put me off.

    I would explain that I am a mixture of religious reserve, when in reality I want to shag all attractive women (I won’t). However, i am a very, very good dancer and do a lot of exercise (weight and kick boxing type training). Women generally find my physique very attractive, even though I am not “cut” or any of that type of nonsense (envy) I am too old for that.

    It is true that I can’t pull any of the truly hot blondes. That may be due to my lack of height, and also I am almost 50 (although I look a lot younger). I think it is also a social issue. These types of self preening hot chicks tend to follow media patters – i.e. thinking a black man is desirable etc. (see below).

    2. I have a close Chinese relative who is married to an attractive blonde.

    3. I have a Chinese friend (very handsome) who has a string of very attractive white females companions, one of whom was definitely model standard. The type that black guys go for.

    4. As for black guys, they have fantastic athletic bodies. Long and lean and very muscular and great for sports. I don’t have those attributes – being short legged and muscular. My mum told me that in the sixties, they always pulled the most attractive women whereas the Chinese men went out with less attractive white women! However, as I was growing up, they were not a popular choice. However, I had a friend who was Nigerian (school friend) and he told me in the late eighties about his sexual exploits which surprised me given that at school/uni, white girls did not go for black guys. Not to say they were unpopular – merely that they were like the rest of us. Of course we knew they had larger willies, but I did not see many attractive girls with black guys and no girls expressed a desire to go with one, to me, at that time. So yeah, in very working class environments, they found very working class attractive white women but this did not transfer to middle class ones in the eighties.

    However, definitely in recent years, I have seen black guys almost all the time with the best looking white women, usually the tall, model types. This is certainly so in discos etc. There will be these beautiful blondes, the most attractive in the club, and some black dude will bump and grind behind them and the blondes go with it. I have seen it time and time again. It is like the black guys are sexual royalty. Spoilt princes.

    I believe this to be due to a mixture of factors including media representations of black males as being the epitome of male sexuality It stirs something in white women. The opposite is true of American representations of orientals as being effeminate or non leaders etc. I believe this to be (yes) contrived to some extent. There is a thread of anti- oriental DNA in American representations of us.

    I have lived in London for many years and had many black friends. Possibly half of them were black. But it was in London that I noticed this new phenomenon which was the sexiest white women (even posh ones) with really mediocre looking black men.

    People dismiss generalisations as being politically incorrect. But I am too old for that rubbish. We do make these generalisations and they are representative of aspects of life. I would say black guys are very forward and very very persistent. They are also predatory (not necessarily in an illegal sense). They are the anti thesis to many things Chinese. (Paradoxically many educated Nigerians will display many similarities to Chinese also – sorry I am about to go back to bed and can’t think straight in an academic way). In a club setting, with the really hot chicks, a Chinese man will lose. It’s to do with 1. Sexual forwardness 2. Physical attributes 3. The Chinese reserve thing and possibly religious things 4. Western representations of Chinese versus black men. 5. Willy size (yes, contrary to reports about equality they are bigger) and perceptions on the part of white women thereof 6. The sexualisation of society and the higher value attributed to shagging rather than the intellect. People are getting more stupid and more “led”.

    But at the same time, the Chinese guys that I know (myself included) that are more “English” get very attractive white women. (None of us were the types that hung around Chinese groups – I have interfaced with these groups and generally found them to be sometimes super business intellectual and very sexually frustrated. Kind of talk about white women endlessly without talking to a white woman. Whereas I will have close white women friends.) Maybe not Cheryl Cole – but rather then more educated version with less make up and no artificial tan.

  182. I would mention something else for the mix

    I think that it is important for oriental men to be more open to friendships with poorer people like unemployed or the so-called working class. Not just clever, middle class graduates who are professionals etc etc. It’s enriching and in a lot of ways, for example working class fellahs (I don’t just see this as just about getting women ) can show you how to lay a patio, fix your car, build an extension etc. In that sense, they are the more educated.

    This links me to another interesting point. Oriental guys aren’t the only ones who complain about not getting the hotties. I know a really really nice looking lad, very well brought up. About 6 foot 4. He is gorgeous and I think he does modelling. Really good looking in a non athletic sort of way. I know him quite well and we were talking about pulling hot chicks and he had similar issues to the so-called oriental man. Here is this chap, white middle class, well spoken, very respectful of women and he was complaining that the hotties go for the steroided, built up roguish types. So there you have it. It’s not just a race thing – it’s a class thing as well.

    The type that get fit women (like super fit WAG types) go to clubs, can bench press about 300 lbs. (at least); when it is snowing, will still go drinking or clubbing in a T shirt. Whereas some lads (any colour) that I would associate with would go in a coat! And we would later be complaining how we could not pull.

    Fit babes (the hot ones with great tanned legs) like their equivalent – the working class mechanic on roids who look like they can fight. It works. It is primitive and not cerebral. White guys who are not like that will have the same issues as oriental men.

    I also know a really hot girl (too young for me) – possibly one of the best looking girls in that city – who is with a Chinese guy But guess what. He is pretty working class and teaches kung fu and very athletic with big muscles.

    So I don’t know about the States but in the UK, it is not just a race thing.

  183. @ Ste

    Well, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    I do however wonder about the strangeness of something you said.

    “I have never ever had a Chinese girlfriend. Haven’t got a clue what it is like at all. I have dated a few white women tho’, mostly a lot hotter than me.”

    As a Chinese guy, growing up in a Chinese home, somewhere within the Chinese diaspora—does it not seem strange that in all your experiences listed above (with mostly Whites, and at least one Black woman) that you have never had a Chinese girlfriend at all? After all, your mother was a Chinese woman, and perhaps you have a female sibling. Does it not seem strange that you have never gone down that road?

    This is where some level of analysis must be applied. Why is it that you seem to be at least somewhat obsessed with a particular beauty standard—namely, White women with Scandinavian features? If you take a look at both literature and cinema, you will discover that the “blonde-haired, blue-eyed” beauty was rarely mentioned as the White beauty standard. Take a look at the old movies. Most of the “bombshells” were sultry brunettes. It wasn’t until the 1950s that blondes became much more popular reaching a peak in the 1970s.

    So you must realize that in having a blonde preference, you are more than likely following an established social trend, which is just another way of saying that somebody TOLD you that fair-haired Scandinavians were the ultimate beauties, and you believed it. You shaped this into a personal template for desirability, and have since been seeing the world through blonde-colored glasses. Unless you are particularly aware of media and social influences, it is almost inevitable that you will simply accept the prevailing social programming as what specific features are considered to be beautiful and most highly valued by society.

    My point is that this is something to at least be aware of. Everyone has accepted certain social programming, we just need to realize that this is what we are doing and perhaps reexamine our preferences from time to time. “Why is it that as a Chinese guy I am so hot for White blonde women?”

    But interestingly beyond that, the TRUTH of the matter is that most blondes are rather plain looking, because most people are rather plain looking (which is the very definition of “average looks”). So really, people can be divided into 2 basic and meaningful categories:

    1) The beautiful, and
    2) The non-beautiful.

    There are gradations in between, of course, but in general, people across cultures can recognize beautiful people not only in their own culture, but also the beauties of other cultures. There may be some debate about specific preferences, but there is clearly a larger universal perception of the physical human aesthetic.

    One example – http://www.goldennumber.net/beauty.htm

    The beautiful people of all ethnicities are treated better and valued higher than the non-beatiful people, and this is where the truest line of demarkation lies, not between ethnicities (in most major urban centers of the world). I know beautiful women who routinely park their cars for free in downtown parking lots. I know beautiful but reckless drivers who never get any tickets (although they get pulled over quite often). I know good looking guys who get promotions and accolades from management even though they are no more than average in everything, except in their appearance. Beautiful people are even more favored than any one ethnicity, but societies do seem to take one particular type of beauty and put that up on a pedestal for a while, then another “look” comes along. But the “race as most beautiful” ideas that swirl around are the opiate of the ignorant.

  184. Hey, Ste. You like blonde women? You want blonde women to continue existing? Then stop promoting miscegenation.

    Blonde hair and blue eyes are recessive. In the long run, these traits will disappear with miscegenation.

  185. Hitler,

    Yes, that would be the case, but with with genetic engineering, the reverse will happen, ironically.

  186. Genetic engineering is an abomination against nature, just like miscegenation. The idea of “white” babies spawned from the crotches of non-white races sickens me more than anything.

  187. ^^^ Hahaha! That’s great Satire, Hitler!

    Of course, if miscegenation was really “against nature” then people of different “breeds” would not be able to reproduce—or if they could, then their offspring could not reproduce (as is the case with mules). But I’m sure that was what you were pointing out with that fine piece of satyrical comedy!!! Jolly good show!

  188. No. I’m only making a moral statement. It has nothing to do with either the possibility of miscegenation or genetic engineering.

    Some people say homosexuality is an abomination against nature. This does not change the fact that it has biological origins or that homosexuals engage in homosexual sex, etc.

  189. “No. I’m only making a moral statement. It has nothing to do with either the possibility of miscegenation or genetic engineering. Some people say homosexuality is an abomination against nature.”

    Ah, but then when such people say that homosexuality is “unnatural” they are speaking either religiously, or based on biological reproductive concerns. What then is the basis for your morality in the case of miscegenation?

  190. “Hitler,”

    Can you stick to the arguments? There’s no indication that Fun is Jewish. If you’ve read his words, he’s decided to be sneaky, slimy, and annoying by making ridiculous statements and not disclosing who he is. No need to offend Jewish people here by accusing some anonymous troll of being Jewish, when there’s nothing to indicate he is.

  191. “There’s no indication that Fun is Jewish. If you’ve read his words, he’s decided to be sneaky, slimy, and annoying . . . ”

    But that’s precisely why Hitler says Fun is a ‘Jew’ IMO. He and many others generalized the term ‘Jew’ to mean a person with unsavory attributes (i.e. belief in HBD). His posts here remind me of Nietzsche’s works (see, for instance, ‘Master-Slave_Morality’ on Wikipedia as a summary).

  192. Ah, but then when such people say that homosexuality is “unnatural” they are speaking either religiously, or based on biological reproductive concerns. What then is the basis for your morality in the case of miscegenation?

    When people say that homosexuality is an abomination or unnatural, they’re saying it’s gross. Don’t play word games. “Nature,” as it is used here, is not referring to the material universe; it’s simply a metaphor for “the desirable order of things.”

    Yeah, I got a biological reproductive concern about miscegenation: it produces mixed-race children and weakens the Race. I don’t like that.

  193. @Raguel

    If you are asking me, then I think I know what you are implying. To which, I will say this: read my post carefully.

  194. @Raguel

    I am not evading the question. In fact, I will answer it now: yes.

    It is only by the way you have worded the question that I take it you mean this in a dismissive, sarcastic, and rhetorical manner. No offense.

  195. Hitler and Skeptic,

    Alright, I’ve had enough. This site isn’t for people like you. Could y’all go elsewhere? You’ve got a right to your own opinions, and I have no issue with that. I just don’t like seeing it here.

    It’s nothing personal, really. Thanks for understanding.

  196. You know. The funny thing is. Blonde, Scandinavian type men aren’t considered the most desirable in our society. Every woman looks for tall, dark and handsome.

    Also, i sort of agree with King, many people are slaves to social programming what is beautiful.

    The sad thing, lots of people, don’t have any idea why they are most attracted to “Blonde” women and just accept it as their preference.

    That’s why I think it’s funny how that Asian guru dude says Asian Males aren’t looked by many as possible dating mates yet he himself has conformed to this social programming standard of beauty ie: Blonde women.

    In the end, I notice how Asians have no problems with telling anyone about how they haven’t dated an Asian person in their life (almost like bragging) yet most other people of other races would be ashamed to admit that. This is almost like that ESPN writer who self promoted how he didn’t speak any Asian language and don’t even know how to use chopsticks. Can we call this self hating? I think to some degree, it is.

  197. @bigWOWO

    That is perfectly fine and understandable. Your site, your rules.

    Good bye.

  198. Well, I’ve said all I’ve needed to say. Enjoy pining over the White woman.

    1488. Peace out, my niggas.

  199. LOL @ King with flowery pseudo-intellectual BS

    Who are you to subject others to your personal value judgements on “beauty”?

    Should some of us give a discourse to you why we think many black women look like monkeys & ugly etc…?
    (oh wait, you’re going to bring out the usual counter-example of Haile Berry, a halfie)

    If you can’t downplay black womens looks, why try to downplay blonde womens’ looks?

    After all if @STE finds blonde women sexually attractive, why not?
    It’s his choice.

    There doesn’t have to be a “rational” reason why he finds a type sexually attractive, underpinned by someone else’s definition of “beauty”.

    It is what it is.

  200. LOL

    I also feel Moronboshi whose comment was the inspiration for this subject is projecting a little. Nothing wrong with that.

    Problem I’ve noticed with many AM is that they have a “cuckold” mentality.

    Even if their “beloved” Asian female “target” went off with WM and flaunted it in front of him, he’d still kiss her ass hoping things will change, pining for her like a dog for its master for all eternity, feeling sorry for himself, blaming himself…while said AF treats him like shit.

    AF knows that many AM have a scarcity mentality wrt to women.
    They also know many AM have an invisible chain tied to AF (being the most likely bunch who would take AM)
    So situation is: AM is bounded by this invisible chain to only go for AF – while AF has more options to explore the field.
    Even the average AF “Asian males only” knows she has the option of being able to attract other men is she wants…something not available the the average AM.

    Of course, these Asian Males, from hearing them talk are also ostensibly picky fuckers:
    – white women are too skinny, pointy elbows blabla
    – black women x,y,z blabla
    – hispanic women are c,d,e blabla

    It’s all a facade: a self -defense mechanism.
    Cognitive disonance: as in I’ll not try to talk to her b/c she’ll reject me straight off.
    aka “I never wanted her anyway”

    So they convinced themselves that their “probability” is best with Asian females since they’ve dismissed all these other women as not suitable.

    While they are putting AF on a pedestal as their one and only, she’s busy exploring the field for the best mate with all types of men…knowing full well that the AM is a last resort if the worse comes to the worst..

    Truth hurts.

  201. @King –

    interesting comments and thanks for taking the time to analyse. I have often wondered about these things myself. I am not a Cantonese speaker and I think that this contributed to my alienation from UK Chinese. I went to Chinese school and fancied a few girls who were very hot and very working class/scally. Most of my colleagues ended up in triads but I didn’t. I wanted to learn Hung Kune but my mother wouldn’t make me the suit. Subsequently. I moved away from the city into a rural area when I was a kid and so lost contact with Chinese peers. I had a lot of mocking from Chinese people that I was a “Gwai zai” and I wanted to fight them because I am proud to be Chinese. Ironically by that stage all I knew was karate. I have a knowledge of about 4 dialects altogether but do not speak any of them well at all.

    I haven’t always liked blondes. For many years, I liked the dark French look. I changed in my twenties although I do remember fancying a blonde girl at school and getting turned on by a pic of a blonde glamour model when I was 5.

    A few years ago, I did meet a really gorgeous Chinese girl and I was considering snog her but she stopped me because we were mates. Her Cantonese was worse than mine.

    I am not sure why I like blondes so much. …and I have a degree in psychology. All I can say is that I just do. I wish I knew why. I like that kind of golden colour. I got off with a very nice blonde lady a couple of years back and I have to say I really really enjoyed our time together. (We didn’t shag but it could have got there if you see what I mean). i felt like it was the missing piece in the area of desire. It was a kind of feeling that my fascination with blondes was deep seated.

    Thinking back I do remember that my mum had a colleague who was a really really hot long legged blonde and I fancied her even as a five year old. I thought she was the pinnacle of beauty when I was that age I also remember a really pretty blonde lady (long hair etc) staying with us when I was 10 and I thought she was amazing. (I still wonder about her). So it could have been a conditioning thing yeah. But as I say, for many years, I did like the French Arab look.

    I think I have the same tastes as black guys. Maybe my experience is similar to those who are not white, but live in a white world. I notice that when black guys get off with women, I often think they are the most attractive women there. Usually the women seem to be tall, athletic, model types with certain proportions physically. I know black guys will object to me saying this as it sounds generalising but I am recounting my experiences. Whenever I have been with an attractive woman (including my girfriends/ companions at the time), a black guy will always approach her. Time and time again I have noticed that whenever there are younger people in a group setting, that if there are any attractive women, the black guy will eventually be standing next to them. I once went on holiday with my girlfriend. It was part of a tour. I saw D (a black guy) and I knew he would try and make a move for my then girlfriend. Not necessarily ask her out, but either get her details or get close to her. It was constant pressure keeping an eye on him because he was constantly at it. When we sat down, he had to sit next to her (“randomly”) , when I was around, he would ignore me, when she was there, he would try to talk to her. Me and her weren’t settled and we split up that holiday but he contributed to it. I think that of the many black guys that I have observed, many are very “looks” orientated (you could level the same accusation at me). I never thought too much about racial preferences and black guys being at the top etc etc but when I lived in London I saw how attractive women seemed to gravitate towards them. This includes a really beautiful blonde model type (who I fancied for years) AND a gorgeous Vietnamese girl who to be honest I wanted to make love to and who gave me a lift (but I didn’t feel it appropriate). She felt that my reserve was a rejection (it wasn’t – it just wasn’t right) whereas I had fancied her for a long time. We went back to this party and there were a lot of black guys there. Somewhat predictably, she ended up with one (or two of them) temporarily. That’s what I heard.

    Once I was slow dancing with this really sexy blonde lady – it was just us there and the DJ and D a tall black guy (who I knew). He was waiting there to dance with her. So I gave up and walked off because I knew I couldn’t compete. She was bound to fancy him more than me. She didn’t exactly protest which I think she would have done if she had preferred me. So I think this gets back nicely to the main thread.

    (Mind you I remember I was at a dance once and this oriental vision walked past me. I had to grab her. She looked Korean but was in fact a former Japanese model. A tall black guy with dreads who fancied himself a bit – and the sort that English girls absolutely love – tried to grab her physically away from me. It was bizarre and rather primeval. But she wanted to stay with me. We danced for a very long time and then this white guy came over and started to row with her because of the length of time she had been with me. Apparently he was in love with her etc etc etc. I felt really embarrassed and that English bloke made right tit of himself. Anyway that was maybe 10 years ago and I am still friends with that Japanese lady. She married a German guy. )

    Mr King – you are right to question my blonde orientation . Looking back, I was obsessed with this German blonde lady who ended up marrying a tall black guy and another blonde English girl (we did actually go to a party together in Green Park). I wished I hadn’t been. A lot of lovely English girls (who i would go nuts over now) were very interested in me and I cannot understand for the life of me how I never went for them. One even dyed her hair blonde – lol. (She was almost 6 foot tall and very attractive. What was I thinking?) I am not married now and I really regret my blonde obsession (which Mr King you are right to question) because I missed out on some really great marriage material females. It was my loss and I feel the pain.

  202. Aggro: What is wrong with an Asian male wanting to be with an Asian female? Your generalizations are stupid. Not all AFs want to date WMs just like not all AMs want to date AFs. No one ever put an AF on a pedestal. I’m just saying, if you’re an AM and you want to be with someone who probably gets you better than anyone could, it would probably be with an AF.

    WFs aren’t hard to obtain. AFs aren’t hard to obtain. It’s just that I prefer dating AFs. You’re an idiot to think there’s something wrong with that. I feel sorry for anyone who feels they can’t get a WF cause their Asian.

    To me all races have their beauties. I’ve dated beautiful women from both races all my life as most of my friends who I grew up with have also. It may sound shallow but I’ll take a hot looking AF any day of the week over a plain out of shape WF.

    Funny how guys want the supermodel white beauty queen but yet have the face of Fido, the dogface boy and the body of Elephantro.

  203. Aggro, you sure that it was King who said that?

    Or do you need to get your eyes checked?

  204. Never mind, I found the post Aggro was referring to. Nevertheless, it still remains a kneejerk reaction stemming from butthurt.

  205. A lack of a macho culture hurts Chinese boys the most. It’s a form of negative psychological conditioning that never puts them at ease with their own sexuality and what they have to offer to women, so that it’s as if a vital part of the self and self-esteem has been blotted out of existence and put into a memory hole.

    In my whole lifetime I know more Chinese men who play the good monk and neuter and who visit prostitutes regularly on the sly, than I know Chinese men who are very comfortable interacting with women, flirting with them, and fucking them. And yes, they do all the things that Aggro says they do. So I sympathise very much with a lot of what he’s saying. We DO need a more aggressive, macho culture when it comes to the mating game. But it should not be taken to pathological levels. The end goal is freedom of choice and self-confidence.

    I look at the changes as the years tick by and I see that what a lot of people have described as some kind of immutable social phenomenon is in fact changing. I look at Chinese men less than thirty years old and depending on their environment they are not so addicted to sex with hookers to the exclusion of normal interactions with women. Younger still, mingling between the sexes is the norm and people hook up earlier and earlier than ever without ever suffering the social sanctions that I did in my years.

    I see that some posters will try to talk about how we’re subject to some kind of immutable rule or phenomenon in a vain bid to explain what happened to us. But there is no immutable rule. Something had been done to us.

    Something had been taken from us.

  206. “LOL @ King with flowery pseudo-intellectual BS
    Who are you to subject others to your personal value judgements on “beauty”?

    Maybe you hadn’t noticed this Dummy, but this is the COMMENT section of a blog. People are actually invited to share their opinions and value judgements.

    “Should some of us give a discourse to you why we think many black women look like monkeys & ugly etc…? (oh wait, you’re going to bring out the usual counter-example of Haile Berry, a halfie)”

    What difference would that make? All humans do resemble monkeys to some degree. You see, we are both primates… try to say it slowly now… P-R-I-M-A-T-E-S. Very good! Now, monkeys have very thin lips, close set eyes, and are very hairy… hmmm who does that sound like?

    If you can’t downplay black womens looks, why try to downplay blonde womens’ looks?

    Well I for one, did not say that blondes looked like monkeys (even though it can be argued that all humans do, at least a little). What I said was that most blondes look average just as the majority of ALL other sub-population do. That statement in non-falsifyable. The words “average” or ”plain” means at the aesthetic norm. “Beautiful” means a person who is above the aesthetic norm. Therefore, ipso facto, MOST people (of any group) will always be “average looking.”

    “After all if @STE finds blonde women sexually attractive, why not?
    It’s his choice.”

    Are you really this stupid? I never said that STE could not find blonde women attractive. I simply said that it’s worth while to understand why he has exemplified a certain type of Scandinavian beauty while simultaneously failing to appreciate the beauty of women of his own ethnicity.

    “There doesn’t have to be a “rational” reason why he finds a type sexually attractive, underpinned by someone else’s definition of “beauty”
    It is what it is.”

    Ahhh, Science at it’s best! Don’t ever question anything! Why bother to explore any other possibilities when you can just assume that there is no cause to an effect? What an ignoramus! Do yourself a favor and keep your tongue behind your teeth if you don’t have the brains to express anything beyond befuddled confusion, half-baked thoughts, and rank ignorance.

  207. Those blonde worshippers are every bit as bad as those brain-dead ‘mix babies are sooooo cute’ potato chasers.

    And the funny thing is that most blondes are not really blondes, so what are they really attracted to? Hair dye?

  208. @ Raguel, could you elaborate. I see a lot of students around from China. A lot of the males seem non-muscular and have non-masculine hairstyles. They also dress up in a way that I find more feminine. (Mind you this is happening to middle class white youth as well).

    I want to throw something else into the mix, seems a random point. It seems bitchy and shallow but I don’t mean it to be. It is something my mother goes on and on about. This is the rate at which white people age. I notice that even in their early twenties they are starting to age even on a yearly basis. And they age much more than Chinese people. You notice it around the neck and especially legs and arms where you see a line going down the arm or leg where (I presume) the flesh has become looser. I think it is to do with the physical structure of the skin and sun damage. Sometimes you see this seriously hot daughter with the parents and you cannot believe that they share the same genetics. Whereas Chinese age a lot less. For instance, I know this Chinese lady in her forties and she is absolutely beautiful even without make up. I fancied her for years but she has gotten snapped up by a (to me) 15 stone over weight builder white guy. She said she likes the size of a big man. I ‘ve seen white guys without their shirts on and many (I am sorry to say) do look loose and flabby. This sounds bad and I hate to say it, but how else can I put it? There are pro’s and cons I guess to whatever race you are in the sex thing.

    okay – maybe I should go back to the slightly mutton dressed as lamb tall white women hehe.

  209. “I want to throw something else into the mix, seems a random point. It seems bitchy and shallow but I don’t mean it to be. It is something my mother goes on and on about. This is the rate at which white people age. I notice that even in their early twenties they are starting to age even on a yearly basis. “

    STE, I think you are right about the sun being the main cause. I’d add to this also that far too many White people abuse their skin type by laying out in the sun tanning for hours and hours. That very quickly makes their skin appear prematurely dry and leathery .

  210. @King

    Have you noticed tho, they seem to lose shape as well? I feel bad saying that but I was wondering what others thought. But white people do say that I look young for my age (comparatively). So technically, I am just elaborating on that main statement.

    I think sweating, lots of water and staying out of the sun help. Plus exercise to keep toned. And not tons of make up. I have a blonde friend who is 27, and has great skin. She doesn’t use make up.

  211. @King

    To reinforce my point, when I was in my teens, I would go to school to pick a child up from primary school. I used to look forward to it thinking there would be loads of hotties. There were hardly any. These women were in their thirties and forties maybe and they were very very plain. Explain that, eh? There must have been a fair proportion of them that were very attractive, just 10 years earlier. You go out to town on a Friday night and I guarantee there will be 50% hotties. So what happens to them once they have kids and that? …..sheesh I need a proper job.

  212. ^^ @ Ste

    I think that may have more to do with a prolonged and generational exposure to the high fat and protein-rich Western diet. Westerners consume far more protein and far less fiber and plant-based nutrients than do Asians, Africans, or Middle Easterners. The diet will allow for you to grow taller and bulkier, but it also is easy to get fat on, along with many other problems.

  213. Oops, I should have also mentioned the very high intake of processed sugars, as a damaging component of the Western diet. These generally are not available (at least in the same quantities) in most other places of the world.

  214. @King.

    Those are very interesting comments and that’s why I come on these forums (occasionally) to get some knowledge rather than tippy toe here there and everywhere so as not to offend anyone.

    Not meaning to be mean, but I once went into this changing room. I took off my clothes and my physique looked really compact, muscular, good skin tone etc (not now!) but white guys of a similar age looked poor. Loose skin. I think that in terms of health white people are maybe too big and so will get circulation issues as they get older. That’s why I find these American scientific surveys about tall people getting the women rather than shorties quite funny. I think tall Westerners are more likely to have health issues that they would not have if they were a few inches smaller and their bodies more efficient. Am I off the mark here? As they get older, I notice that big guys kind of get flabby and lumbering.

  215. Another random interjection from my stream of conciousness.

    I notice that the thread refers to a jealousy from AM to BM (have I got the jargon right?). It may or may not be true in a sexual sense.

    But I had a Jamaican Chinese landlord once and he told me a lot of stories about how the blacks there would bully the CHinese, who happened to be better off. There would be a lot of murders robbery and (I suspect) rape. I met a Jamaican lady and she complained that the Chinese kept themselves to themselves in their own areas I suspect that there was a lot of economic jealousy there. I certainly noticed that in London, the Jamaican (well they thought they were – probably had never even been there) type youths/young people would consistently abuse Asian shopkeepers and to some extent me (calling me a Paki etc). Until you’ve seen it, you wouldn’t beleive it. Plus, I have been mugged by a black man and so has my dad. (Except my dad hit him). So in that sense, that has to be a form of jealousy? Plus, I was walking with a black girl once and this black young man started to shout at me in an unknown West Indian patois. I would never dream of doing anything like that if I saw a Black man with a CHinese girl.

  216. @ Ste: Well, RE: Chinese in Jamaica. All I can say is that there has been a lot of mixing going on between Chinese and Blacks for decades in Jamaica. Most Jamaicans that I know seem to consider the Chines Jamaicans as natives and get along with them for the most part. What your friend was describing MIGHT be racism, or have a racist element. However, it also might be classism. There is often friction between people who have and have noy.

  217. @ King

    I wonder if as Chinese, we are very formulaic. Like 1 Work hard at School 2 Work hard a t Uni 3. Get a well paid job. 4. Get an (attractive) wife. With regard to 4. of course, looks should not matter but if they were important (and I think they are to people when they express themselves over the internet – but those peeps de-emphasise this aspect in real life because they fear being labelled as “shallow”). The problem is that (and this is what I have seen and what other lads have seen too – they tell me about it) many black guys get to 4. straightaway and this totally breaks the paradigm in our heads.

    It could be say “play guitar/ do martial arts/ dance/work” or whatever it was until I was ready for the market and the harder I work, the more I qualify for an attractive wife. However these are pretty useless when it comes to finding (white) hotties. (In regard to Chinese girls I don’t know… but one rejected me for being poor). White hotties are more physically/ sexually orientated. For instance I asked a couple of girls (just the other day) what kind of guy they wanted. And the answer was “I want a guy who if we are out at a night club, can protect me”. I protested that life isn’t all about going to night clubs. After all you don’t go to one every day of the week unless you are loaded. But this is what is in their mindsets

    So what M or N whatever criticising me as being “brainless” without any knowledge of my situation (which seems to me to derive from a lack of wisdom and anger issues) for my attraction to blondes shows something quite interesting. Whether M or N is Chinese or not, their view is maybe representative of certain Chinese people. This is to hold in high esteem the intellectual component of sexual attraction. But in a Western world, women are attracted to physicality, not what they can work out in their heads. Certainly in my case I have been with women of different races, and I have to say that I have been most attracted to blonde women. I do not know why, and I would be interested to find out why, but I just get excited and whenever I have been snogging one, I like the physicality and feel kind of very very comfortable. It’s not just a look, but rather a physicality issue. I think it is due to having been cared for by mostly rough working class white people in my early years and also fancying my mum’s hot friends at an early age.

  218. @ Ste, sorry bro, I’m not from China. I’m overseas Chinese though. Was talking about my own community lol.

    If I had to make a wild guess though, I’d say that the feminine hair and skinny bodies is due to influence from pop culture, where being soft is sold as being safer and more approachable to girls a similar age. So these kids register that subconsciously and then adopt the style. And perhaps also because of a lack of contemporary male role models with a strong stylistic sense. Androgyny as a fashion statement has certainly spread to taiwan.

  219. The formula chafes my tits raw. The formula is just stupid and plain wrong. I see people with half the talent and work ethic get ahead all the time, and they do it because of connections, likeability, social ability, whatever.

    In hindsight I probably shouldn’t be so hard on the idea. It seems to work well in families and communities not yet broken apart by some of the things I’ve seen.

    But these folks don’t realise that if you live in an imperfect world then you have to adapt very fast, and the only thing holding them back is their pre-conceived ideas about what their virtues are supposed to get them. Pure fucking fantasies.

  220. I think the skin aging is due to the sun exposure too. It’s quite a pity really. Us Asians could hit 40 and still have comparatively good skin. The flabbiness I think is diet and lifestyle. I see a lot of asians who follow the western lifestyle of eating lots of fatty foods and meats, working 9 to 5 and then plopping down in front of the tv at the end of the day, they really get flabby fast. But it’s almost inevitable. People are working longer and longer hours now because that’s supposedly a good work ethic.

  221. @Raguel

    I really appreciate your time. Are you American then?

    So to what extent do you think my formula analysis is right?

    Recently I went on a student holiday and I met this black girl who was absolutely gorgeous. I won’t go into vital statistics, but I was amazed. Beautiful eyes etc. This really really well built muscular Chinese guy walked past and she followed him! She was an amazing dancer, probably been on TV. He didn’t realise until I told him later that he had been followed by a hottie. She was like a smaller version of Pam Grier but kind of better figure (cough cough). Like unbelievable. He was gutted that he had missed her.

    I am disappointed to see American representations of Chinese males. They are either gay (not attacking gays – but it’s not representative of the sample) or weak. Bruce Lee had a lot of issues breaking into Hollywood. I do think it is contrived. Chicken or egg I do not know. Tony Leung was a paedophile in one film (with Jane March) , my hero David Chiang was with a woman who looked like a man, then there is “Lloyd” (“I am an American”) the gay icon in that US series. Then there are the jokes like “You were penisless in Shanghai” by Seth Rogan (Green Hornet), who I would like to meet in the ring. Cheeky (bleep). I am probably 20 years older and 5 stone lighter but he is a (bleep). Twit (well a similar word). America has problems with orientals. Hahahaha! They own the place.

    I am pretty middle class but I am into the normal laddish things. Like I do weights, practise my kicks and punches on my bag, have danced with possibly over a thousand attractive women, work on my car. Of course I can’t build or do a patio but hey. I am probably starting boxing soon.

    In my job, i have to be kind of asexual (I meet a lot of women so I can’t appear to predatory) and that pisses me off.

    Yeah, where are the normal Chinese role models? We are not all pansies (oooops sorry – I am being offensive again).

  222. “The formula chafes my tits raw. The formula is just stupid and plain wrong. I see people with half the talent and work ethic get ahead all the time, and they do it because of connections, likeability, social ability, whatever.”

    Quoted above for TRUTH.

    That is something that many people don’t really learn until long after their collegiate and career paths are already se in stone. Most jobs require competence, not genius. There is a certain level of performance that is necessary to be “good” at the majority of jobs, but beyond that point, social skills, networking, and likeability will take you MUCH farther in your career (assuming that you first meet competence requirement)

  223. You are absolutely right King. How come it took me so long to realise that (only recently). You don’t have to be a genius and if you try too hard, you get your arse kicked in life and miss out on stuff (and females).

  224. Why don’t we start a right wing movement for Chinese males. Everyone else has one.

    I have seen more sense from Rag and King than a lot of people, in a long time.

  225. I’ll say this. In my 10 years out in the workforce. Being likable, fun with a happy go lucky disposition, trumps moody, rude, obnoxious. This is regardless of who does the job better. People don’t want to deal with the latter now matter how well you do for the most part and will want to work with that only if they have to. Also, people will find any little thing (mistake) that person did and report it at the drop of a hat.

    Always better to be likable. People like that tend to go farther in life. Just my opinion.

    Ste: I have no problem with anyone liking blondes, what I do have a problem with is ones who will go out with unattractive ones. I’ve seen many AMs go for not very attractive WFs just so they can show off and say they are with a WF.

  226. @Moroboshi

    Last sentence – is that right? Like, to show off? That is well weird.

    Really I think we shouldn’t be looks orientated (in an ideal world) so my opinion is that we should be able to go with who we (and they) want to go out with. The problem with people saying this is that it ignores that as Chinese men (or orientals) we have less choice. I have rarely (apart from a mate and some bloke at a railway station) seen Chinese guys with exceptionally attractive white females. I have been with some and have had some prolonged stares, mainly off other hot females. Probably thinking “What is that short CHinese dude doing with one of ours?” hehe! I just smile back.

    But one thing I would say is I have also met Chinese/Malaysian dudes who talk about their careers (blah blah blah) and they sound like Gordon Gecko and then about females (this one is a babe and this one is a scud etc etc) but I have to say they weren’t exactly sexy themselves. They didn’t have a decent body or anything.

    Me personally, I work on my body and movement a lot. I don’t go to a gym to just to look good like loads of blokes but I work on my punching power and speed of attack, that kind of thing. Function function function. (I met Chris Eubank once and what impressed me was his hands which were huge and his muscles were well hard. I would love to have hard (not just big) strong muscles and get a massive score on the punching machine). By contrast, a lot of the Asian guys that I knew in London were almost arrogant about females (I wouldn’t want to talk about ladies as scuds etc) but not great specimens themselves.

    Thanks for taking the time to chat by the way. I have had a crap day and this has alleviated some of my boredom.

  227. I was being ambiguous unintentionally. I don’t go to a gym – I am not an executive poser who has film star muscles (i.e for show). I work on my bag and weights, one for dancing and two so that if that day ever happens when I need to box my way out of trouble, I will be in a slightly better position.

    In recent years, I have had 16 – 20 stone steroided stranger white guys threatening to knock me out or pretending to butt me with no provocation. It’s a real fear and a possibility. They could literally kill me. Guys here are rough and huge. Also robbers pick on Chinese because we are physically weaker and smaller. That’s why I work on my combinations.

    I would encourage all Chinese guys to have something in your arsenal, so you can explode and get yourself out of trouble. Some huge black guy tried to bear hug my dad and he didn’t realise how strong this little Chinaman was. My dad elbowed him.

  228. Where are you running into all these people wanting to fight you? I live in the US and have had no problems. Also in a big Metropolitan city. My Asian friends don’t have many problems either. Seems like a lot of work, building your skills and muscles just in case someone attacks you. Is this real life? Sounds like something you’d see in the movies. I’m sure it happens but not as often as you make it sound like.

    If it were to happen to me, I’d say the best advise is to run. How do you know who you’re fighting with won’t pull out a gun or a knife to do some real damage? One thing to stand up for yourself. But another thing to have some crazy pull out a weapon and do some real damage. Not worth getting hurt over something as nonsensical as proving your bravado.

    You lost me with the last post man.

  229. Run? I can’t run very fast!

    Getting assaulted or mugged is pretty common in the UK. People think I am paranoid but I have seen too many things, right in front of my eyes. And I have experienced a few incidents too. And I am not a trouble maker or seeker (lol).

    Recently, I told a bunch of guys in a pub in this nice upper middle class area where I live how it was important that our kids learn to fight and this the usual (blah) came back from the vicar how kids should build their social skills to not get into situations. blah blah blah. It was hideous. I was almost made out to be a over aggressive person (I am not). I was only speaking the truth And now we have just heard how one of the nice lads from our area went to London, and just got stabbed to death outside a pub.

    If you go out a bit (and I used to) in London, you will see a lot of violence or potentially violent incidents. In fact all of our cities in the UK are going like that.

    I really do recommend that Chinese lads have something in reserve. You never know when you will need it. My dad needed it in London and it saved him a 6 foot 3 black mugger and my aggression helped me in a situation when this big black guy tried to sexually assault me. (Funnily enough I was thinking of running away from him but I felt that might be racist. I thought I would give him a chance and he tried to get it on with me) . I was on the verge of knocking him out. It happens – I tell you the truth.

  230. Everytime I say things like this, I put myself on the line. Middle class, cerebral, clever people ridicule me…like you.

    But I am almost 50 years old now. I have seen a lot. If you were my sons, I would say “Be yourselves. Don’t believe a lot of the stuff the Chinese world cocoons you in. Take the good, reject the bad. The Manchus screwed up China because they would not learn from the so-called savage Westerners. Even the great Zheng He was ridiculed and imprisoned. If you don’t know who he is, shame on you. He was one of the greatest Chinese who ever lived. Get out there! ”

    We’ve talked about women. How Chinese guys can’t pull white women etc blah blah balh. Listen I have a 27 year old blonde who wants to go out with me and a 22 year old girl too. I am not interested. I am a short arse and I am not even good looking. But I have got “something”and I wish you would not just diss what I am saying to you, because essentially I want Chinese young men to not put up with the same crap that I have had to and to give us a good name and make it easier for the next generation of Chinese to be respected in the Western world that we live in. Don’t be afraid to be confrontational. Don’t be afraid to say no. Be honest – Like Bruce Lee said “Honestly express yourself”.

    The other day, I met an English woman. You know what she said? “Chinese are so timid. When I was with my husband I told him that the car in front was driven by a Chinese. He said “How do you know that?” It was because as we approached the car (presumably on in the inside lane on her left) it would pull to one side.” Listen if this old lady knew we were timid, and she knows hardly anything about the Chinese, that is the impression that others have of us and they will continue to bully us and take advantage of us, until we collectively become more assertive. I hear so many stories of young Chinese men who could not stand up for themselves in the workplace. It’s not because we have a persecution complex. We have standards enforced upon us by our parents that helped us (work ethic, respect for others etc) but that screwed us up and caused us to FAIL in our interaction with others who do not share our cultural values.

    I am passionate about these issues and I am making a tit of myself because you will one day remember there was this weird old dude from UK who told me to ratchet it up a bit.

    Go on take the piss out of me, but remember what I told you. You are a Chinese.

  231. I’ve had those weasel words “you’re the only one getting in trouble, what’s wrong with you?” line used on me a little too much. People who ask that come from only two places. Fortunate circumstances so that they’ve never really had to take a good hard look at eveything they’ve taken for granted. Or they themselves are an “interested party” with a dog in the fight. I could tell people a lot of things i’ve seen that people just cannot believe happened, but only because they cant bear to imagine what the implications of such occurrences may be, and how it may shatter their entire belief systems. They lived very safe and comfortable lives, they dont want to think about what if it were THEM on the other side of he tracks because that would break their concept of self. Ironically these are people for whom the idea of a fight to the DEATH would be anathemic, so you know they speak from cowardice rather than any conviction. The other side of the coin is that they’ve already chosen a side but wont come out and say it, so they try to sow doubt in you. Telling people that they’re alone is an old mind game.

    If you are a man, you MUST have a nuclear option. Dont fool yourself into thinking its all about ego and bravado, although in a lot of cases it applies. The reasoning is simple: if you’re a man there will always be people counting on you to do your part in protecting them and standing up for them. Like friends and family for example. Children, wives, lovers, old friends, aged parents etc. Until you live in a world or you yourself can feel that you’ve failed nobody by not being able to protect those you care about, then that’s the day you can hang up your gloves.

  232. @Ste

    For a guy that claims to be a 50 year old, you sure sound like a 15 year old. But personally yeah, I think anyone that’s obsessed with blondes or worship caucasian features are pretty fu*ked up in the head, especially ones that are full of shit and talk shit about all other races/ethnics apart from the white pussies that they worship.

  233. @N

    You have a nasty way with language and which is indicative of the sort of person you are.

    I am trying to tell you what I have seen – of course if will lead to ridicule from people like you, but some people will get something from it.

    People like you are the fascists of the internet. One cannot explore topics with honesty.

    Because I admit to finding (certain) blonde women attractive, you find that offensive and say that I am a self hater. You are incredibly silly because you close discourse rather than open it up. People like you are intellectually arrogant but close-minded. You resort to attacks on my character (the usual game) rather than try to look at the truth of what I am saying which comes from experience. That’s the whole point of forums like this, where people can chat honestly with some degree of anonymity.

    Have a good life but please do not address me anymore – your use of profanity shows that your education was not complete.

  234. I personally do not find sexual preferences to be too strange… according to my casual observations the formation of sexual preference comes from a psychological melange of experience, memory and emotional significance. It’s very natural for people to form sexual attraction with people of other races that they grew up with. But then people also have a high degree of homosociality when it comes to mate selection. We are attracted to what other people are attracted to, in general. And we are definitely manipulated to some high degree via media.

    I personally have a strong preference for raven/jet black hair, and then redheads. Blondes don’t really do anything for me. If anything I am more turned on by behavior especially hyper-sexual/hyper-excitability and submissive patterns, lol.

    The thing about Asians in western countries is that something has been done to us. We are a demographic that has been split right down the middle by sexual lines. We are familiar with Asian women who need to shit on Asian men to justify their own choices, but like Moroboshi said there are also a lot of Asian men who are doing the same thing. In my mind though, there is no mistaking which side fired the first shot and which side is just reacting to a change so fundamentally harmful. In my opinion a lot of Asian men have been radicalised by rejection.

    But I don’t see why Ste is being attacked. I don’t see him attacking anybody or other races or sharing any opinions that are particularly repugnant. Did I miss something? I do admit that I may not have read everything carefully. Besides, the impression I am getting is a dialogue that is more open than what we’ve had with the recent batch of clowns that have joined e.g the HBD clowns, and anti-Jews.

  235. Yah, I don’t find it strange either and was glad that STE shared (even though I haven’t been participating in this convo, I’ve been reading). It’s perfectly normal to have preferences. Look at the whole AFCC thing or the the whole black female attraction–I think most people have preferences.

    Plus, I think most Asian guys prefer Asian women. An Asian guy throwing in a little variety or blonde preference might be a good thing.

  236. Sexual preferences are OK when they are balanced, malleable, and general. And in most cases, I would probably add, transitory.

    In other words, you should be totally capable of seeing beauty in any “type” of woman even outside of your preference. You should be flexible in your preference because a preference for lemonade doesn’t mean you will never drink a glass of orange juice. You should also be open to educating your preferences, trying things that are new, and seeing things from a new perspective. And lastly, you should try and understand the root of your preferences, as best you can. Sometimes, understanding why you prefer something can guard you from falling from preference into obsession.

  237. I have met people like ‘N’

    On the internet they spout all kinds of radical shit.
    “AZN pride” & all that.
    In reality, they are likely pipsqueak hermit oddballs with a high opinion of themselves but unable to fit in anywhere apart from their 2 Asian friends, b/c others don’t agree with their view of the world.

    Reality is likely the have a “cuckold” mentality like I described earlier.
    They are hypocrites.

    They whack off to porn involving white females. Or they love to watch AF-WM, AF-BM porn getting their thrills off that way.
    Or go to visit hookers if they’ve got the coin.
    All while maintaining a respectable face to the world.

    Truly – I find it impossible to believe these types have NEVER fantasised or thought about even ONCE about WF (or BF, HF).
    It’s just not normal for anyone with normal Testosterone levels.
    If you’ve fantasised about it, how different is it to actually do it for real.
    And what’s wrong with it?

    This is a main problem with Chinese culture: too damn arrogant & know-it-alls

    This is borne throughout Chinese history eg Cheng He
    They never want to learn from others thinking they either know it all & are above it all.

    Like ‘N’ they have this fake superiority, holier than thou attitude
    Truth is: a lot of Chinese culture has this fake humbleness.
    Outsiders think it’s true humbleness.
    But b/c they don’t openly brag about it, combined with their reservedness it fools outsiders.

    They are extremely status conscious.
    Also incredibly 2 faced & materialistic as well.
    If you have more money than them or they think you are “above” them they kiss your ass like sycophants.
    God forbid if they think you are below them. Then you will see their true face.

    I bet he is the type to want unsophisticated Asian females, ideally FOB.
    This stems from insecurity.
    He wants to keep such an AF in his pocket away from other males of other races.
    Because he knows he would be out-competed by any decent man

    Unfortunately for ‘N’, most AF nowadays have more options than ever.
    There is competition for scarce resources everywhere: college places, jobs, women.
    He’d better pray that his “beloved” target hasn’t stepped off the reservation & sampled the goods with other men…and left him with sloppy seconds.. Slurp..LOL

    Also he knows that any normal AF would have seen the light for what he is:
    a cuckold without many options other than to “settle for” and “end up with” any AF who will take him.
    Or maybe an arranged marriage with an inbred cousin.

  238. Incredible that none of you guys , except N can tell that Ste and Aggro are the same usual 1 troll playing you for idiots over and over again. Anything for online debate, right?

  239. I am not a troll. I might be a bit stupid for posting here in the first place (and yes I do regret finding this page but it is fascinating) but I am not that stupid to waste my time trolling and pretending I am someone else. My stupidity is forgetting that there are nasty people on the internet who haven’t the balls to stand up for themselves in real life and instead enact their small man aggression on the rest of us. Kind of bullies.

    @King and Rag

    What I find strange is why certain internet fascists do what they do (id est suppress dialogue). Why waste time bothering to come onto these forums to flame people who come out with contrary views? Why read other people’s posts at all, given they will usually offer contrary views? Why not just have one website for themselves and their carefully selected like minded friends to pat them on the back and say “we agree”. Presumably, they would have googled about issues that were in their minds and came to this thread. Things like “attraction;white women;asian men” or whatever. So if it’s about Asians (I prefer “oriental” although I believe that is not so nice in the States?) who fancy white females, of course people like me, who do fancy long legged busty tanned blondes will post and others will comment. To then ridicule people who post about their experiences of white women is bizarre and actually puts people like me off from posting anything at all. So why do the fascists come on to these forums and then pretend that they don’t have some sexual interest in white females given that they probably googled the terms mentioned to find the thread and those psycho-sexual issues were what the thread was about. Defies logic and shows a fair amount of hypocrisy to me.

    I was pressurised by parents to marry even unsuitable Chinese women solely for racial reasons. To be honest with you, I have seen some really seriously fit ones, but they are too young for me unfortunately. I would love to find a really fit Chinese girl. Their beauty lasts a lot longer than say a tanned busty blonde (sorry for being so shallow – we shouldn’t be looks orientated). But when I think about it, I moved from the suburbs to a very rural upper middle class English village/town where there were virtually no CHinese people. And I had brought up, in my early formative years, by working class English child minders. This would probably explain partly why I have the sexual tastes of a working class Englishman. My family were not Cantonese speakers and so in fact I used to be mocked by Chinese people as being a gwai zai. (I do speak a dialect, rather well). My Cantonese and Mandarin are pretty poor tho.

    Some British Born Chinese people speak English with a Chinese lilt. I have spoken to a stranger over the phone and realised that they are Chinese by that lilt. I don’t have such a lilt and sound totally English. I put that down to the level of contact that I have had with English people. But I would refuse to be called English. I am a Chinese.

    One day, China will assume the position that the United States likes to think that it holds. But until that day, as Chinese people in a Western world, will have many struggles. I think that unlike the Manchus who sought to remain aloof from Westerners, we have to learn some of their habits and individualistic ways (including being more assertive and independent) in order to survive and to give us a bit of breathing space to exhibit our God given gifts. I don’t know if you have noticed, but I have sometimes felt that we can get taken for granted. That may be because of invisible psychological webs that have developed around us as we have sought to please and to conform.As a result, if we do pip up to register disagreement, it is seen as over-emotional. So as not to allow these webs to crystallise, I advocate a bit of aggressiveness into our collective repertoire, so that people think twice about “messing” with us or taking us for granted.

  240. Does it truly matter to some whether AM with XF is because of “fetish” or “love”?

    It is all semantics.
    @ STE could have done the typical Chinese 2-faced thing of pretending his attraction to blondes to be coincidental & no one would’ve said a word.
    Instead he was intellectually honest – on an anonymous board FFS, at that.
    And the reaction from the cuckold ‘N’ was as if STE confessed to being a child molester.
    LOL

    At least, AM with XF don’t tear down & shit on AF.
    Unlike AF with WM who nearly always talk shit about AM, humuliate & throw him under a bus by humuliating posting Youtube clips, forum posts, perpetuating AM stereotpyes with friends etc

    I often think the enemy of AM who wish to date XF is not only the AF dating WM (they hate to see AM off the reservation, wanting to keep him in a box) but also other AM with their crab mentality.

    I have been in this movie & experienced it from some older mainlander spouting gibberish which i didn’t understand

    The enemy is within.

    When other women see AM with XF, it is weakening the stereotype of “Asians always stick together”, “I didn’t think you liked non-Asian girls” etc..

    But of course, the “conservative” AM are complicit in perpetuating the above stereotypes to exist. They too want to keep AM who want to get off the reservation in little boxes for their “own good”

    Of course they cry about injustive & stereotypes, and will happily
    ride on Jeremy Lins nutsac & any athlete even if he has a single drop of blood (usually from Asian mother) for abating stereotypes.
    Yet they themselves have not done a SINGLE THING to weaken the stereotypes.

    So why are these AM complaining about IR dating in the first place?
    All I see them do is mental masturbation, contributing nothing in the real world.

    If more & more AM stick only with AF either thru Cognitive Disonance (“I’m sure XF doesn’t like Asians. Well, I didn’t want her anyway”) or self-segregation, it will put the fast-dwindling numbers of AF (large % paired with XM) more on a pedestal giving them more perceived value, inflating the AF ego.

    And more of a sausage fest for AM who “yearn for Asian females only”

    A man with options (other women) is always attractive to women
    compared to a guy who they know has little to no options.
    Women want men who other women want.

  241. BigWowo knows what’s up

    Ask him for the IP addresses

    It must really blow your little minds that there are at least 2 people on the whole interwebs who don’t think & behave like pussy-whipped cuckolds pining for the beloved AF target from far away unable to muster the courage to even talk to her until you pass all your exams & land that perfect job…

    Yeah fellas, do as you’ve been programmed.
    Obediently do the following: 1/ paper chasing/degree 2/ job/career 3/ car/house.
    After all that, as your parents led you to believe, maybe 72 vestigial virgins will magically fall into your lap, from which you choose one to marry happily ever after.

    Oh – and the Fairy Godmother exists

    LOL

  242. @Raguel

    I was particularly interested in your remarks as follows:

    “We are familiar with Asian women who need to shit on Asian men to justify their own choices, ”

    What exactly do you mean by the above? I do know one Chinese (well British Born or nearly) girl who says that she is not interested in Chinese men. I have also noticed that with very attractive Chinese girls, they are generally snapped up by white men.

    “but like Moroboshi said there are also a lot of Asian men who are doing the same thing. In my mind though, there is no mistaking which side fired the first shot and which side is just reacting to a change so fundamentally harmful. ”

    Why do you say that one fired the first shot? In what country? Are you sure they (the females?) fired the first shot? Do you say this because of the discrepancy between AF -WM cf AM-WF pairings?

    “In my opinion a lot of Asian men have been radicalised by rejection.”

    I wonder if that applies to me too? I think possibly. I like this statement because you have brought together a number of thoughts in an interesting way.

    “But I don’t see why Ste is being attacked. I don’t see him attacking anybody or other races or sharing any opinions that are particularly repugnant.”

    Well, I have said things that might appear to cause certain ethnicities discomfort if they do not know where I am coming from. In my defence I would mention that there is a lot of dishonesty in Britain en ce qui concerne things like (illegal) black male machismo and collective gang violence and also the systemic rape of young black females by gangs of black youths, particularly in areas like Peckham and Elephant and Castle. Now because of political correctness you cannot say anything. However, to my surprise that arch hypocrite Tony Blair did address this issue. So has Darcus Howe, a leading black writer, who produced a superb article on the subject. You need to witness what I witnessed in London to appreciate my thoughts here. Further, in the final analysis, persons who seek to accuse one person of making racist statements (which I wasn’t) are surely displaying the most contemptible hypocrisy when they themselves have referred to white females in a derogatory manner by reason of race. Ergo denouncing, in rather profane terms, another person’s attraction to that race.

  243. @Aggro

    “Yeah fellas, do as you’ve been programmed.
    Obediently do the following: 1/ paper chasing/degree 2/ job/career 3/ car/house.
    After all that, as your parents led you to believe, maybe 72 vestigial virgins will magically fall into your lap, from which you choose one to marry happily ever after.”

    That alone made it worth coming back to this page.

    I am ashamed to admit it, but I have only recently come to this realisation (which is why I mentioned it above). Chinese are so formulaic. We always want predictability, assured results. My son must study hard, go to University, get a degree in Law, Medicine or accountancy. (Oh there are other degrees? I did not know that) Then qualify, then get a good job with PWC or whoever. Then meet a nice Chinese girl. Then get married and bear me grandchildren BALLS TO THAT!

    (Meanwhile, whilst we are doing all this stuff and expect this prize to come, guys who didn’t do the formula but got a manual job are earning reasonable amounts (well if they are lucky enough to get a job) and they have married a sexy girl and had kids before you even bought the A4 pad for the new academic term.)

    Surely all that predictability and safety kills the human spirit’s desire for exploration and intellectual growth. Zheng He was a genius and they locked him up!!!!

    In Singapore in the 70’s they preached “two is enough”. Now the government is alarmed by the fall in Chinese birth rates. (They started the economic conditions in which Singaporeans live – massive flat prices etc – how can anyone afford a new flat to accommodate the new baby?) . They went OTT with academic study study study and suddenly realise that the kids are robots and they need to import white guys. Life is a great teacher, playing team games is a teacher, playing in mud is a teacher, living in the wild is a teacher, Not flipping computers and bookwork!

    Now Lee Kuan Yew realises that his emphasis on academic excellence is not the be all and end all and he tells a PhD student for not getting married and having kids!

    We can’t keep getting controlled by parent type figures with their arbitrary designs. We have to find our own way.

  244. BTW (sorry to our sisters for me being so shallow)

    If there are any Chinese guys who (like me) like that big boned Western female look, but would like to marry Chinese, I would say Malaysia. Chinese girls there I think don’t speak English very well, so if your Cantonese or Mandarin or Hokkien is good, you could be well in there. There are some really really amazing (tall possibly a bit overweight but gorgeous) hotties out there that seem very ordinary, humble people. These types are unlikely to like Western males (I don’t know – just guessing). If I was young again, that would definitely be an option for wife material. They wear hot pants because it is so hot out there. Aggghhhhh

  245. @raquel

    The first post was actually more towards aggro. But Ste then went on his Asian bashing rampage which I have no time for.

    And I don’t think I’m wrong at all about him sounding like a 15 year old.

    @ste

    I’m actually glad you’re into white girls now, your last post is incredibly creepy.

  246. @ N, oh, I see…

    Well I am aware that everybody here is quite anonymous. I don’t particularly mind criticism and griping from one of our own but I don’t accept it from opinionated outsiders and white guys in general, and that’s about it really.

  247. @ Ste, sorry, I’m not American either. I have to constantly remind myself that despite my strong interest and opinions in some of these matters I am just an observer.

    Regarding forming a movement of some sort, I do not believe that a right wing political movement will help, (whatever “right wing” may mean). It is very clear to me that the right vs left split is an artificially engineered situation, a strategy of tension created within the population in order to split the political demographic. Have a look at the political system in the UK. Neither the lot of the right wingers nor the left has gotten any better. The ones who have moved ahead and stayed ahead are not ideologically bound, just savvy to the ways of power and statecraft. The true reins are held elsewhere.

    It has become very obvious to me that in today’s world people are more powerless than ever and democracy no longer has any real meaning. Change will only come from those who have significantly elevated themselves above the conditions that the masses are subject to.

  248. And by the things that the masses are subject to, I mean things like Old Bill helping private enterprise like Murdoch’s media empire with classified phone hacking technology originally meant for espionage.

    You see people think that this is a scandal, that this is about justice, right and wrong, and restitution for those who have been wronged. But few will understand that this is not an isolated incident, that things like these have happened for a very long time, that this is how it works, and that’s the way it will always be.

    Look at how people have mindlessly flocked to Facebook without understanding how it works, what’s the revenue model, and the implications to the broader shape of life in the future. Look at how despite our great numbers of engineers, scientists, economists and philosophers, few have any idea of how things really work and why the problems we face remain perennially unsolved, and then look at the numbers that turn nihilistic and apathetic.

    What will happen in the coming years will make Lee Kuan Yew’s eugenics and WHO inspired population control blunder look mild by comparison.

    The key reason is that the masses are no longer able to comprehend the forces that influence them, and being helpless like animals will lead to the greater majority of us being treated like nothing more than that.

  249. @Raguel

    I do berate myself (and others do as well) in real life for wearing my heart on my sleeve (even on internet forums) . One’s motives can be misinterpreted and the more that one says, the more encouraged the vulture-like, egotistical and rather unkind individuals who enjoy examining statements out of context with the same glee as children who separate spiders from their legs. The former notably observe and criticise, rather than proffer views of their own. In economising their use of words, they thereby reduce the possibility themselves of coming under scrutiny and become the playground bully, rejoicing in their perceived dominance in an internet kingdom of one. But they live virtually alone and their self-perceived prestige and futile victories over phantoms of their imaginations within the confines of these tiny islands do not translate to anything of value in the real world. Islands of the internet. Kingdom of one.

    Nevertheless, despite these islands becoming less and less attractive to the virtual visitors (“beam me up Scotty”) there may be found, form time to time, small oysters that glisten in the artificial sunlight bearing pearls (albeit oddly shaped) of thought that are pleasing both to the eye and to the intellect.

    This virtual visitor enjoyed your observations on the sheepification of modern man. Thank you Mr Rag.

  250. @ Ste, you have a very interesting way with words, I chuckled much at the oddly shaped pearls in artificial sunlight! XD

  251. Well, I’m one to believe if you’re going to go to an area where you have a chance to get assaulted, you best try to stay out of that area. I’m not saying not stand up for yourself, ie: at work, at a restaurant, etc. But if the only reason you’re learning self defense is to be ready for some guy that attacks you, that just sounds kind of strange to me. I mean is it wise to walk by yourself in the ghetto part of Hell’s Kitchen? So you’re going to learn martial arts to fend off muggers? Doesn’t sound real to me and more like a fantasy game. When I stand up for myself verbally, I don’t ever remember it ever going further than some arguing and then them realizing this is a person who verbally stands up for himself and then them leaving you alone. Not sure how it is in London but if it’s like that where you are constantly having people attacking you, not sure I need to ever go there.

  252. @ STE

    Having lived & worked in Singapore briefly along my travels…

    Lee Kuan Yews blueprint for governing Singapore was basically a macrocosm of the typical REPRESSIVE authoritarian Asian upbringing:
    – I know best
    – do as you’re told
    – don’t ask any questions
    – study hard
    – work hard
    – get a good job
    – it will “just happen” (mating)

    As you can see the effects in real life with many Asian men, it works up to a point…before the mating part.
    That’s where the model fucks up.

    Professionals are marrying later because in order to be considered ‘elligible’, the guy is expected to have 5 “C”s of materialism before marrying:
    – Cash
    – Career
    – Car (very expensive with ~ 100% tax)
    – Condo (expensive due to limited supply, small land area)
    – Country Club membership

    With all the pressure & badges of materialism to achieve in order to climb the elligibility ladder, it is an achievement to have done all that by age 30, even with parental help.

    Is it any wonder that birth rates among professionals are plummeting?
    Has the penny dropped yet for Lee Kuan Yew?

    Singpaore is already importing workers from the west to use their skills & knowledge to enhance Singapore’s workforce.
    I think Lee’s (who is still very influential) master plan
    solution to the low birth rate could be to import a bunch of workers (white males preferably) for work AND to impregnate the women (of all races), given the whole place worships whites.
    Kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
    Seriously, Lee believes in eugenics/Human bio diversity & worships whites being an admitted anglophile.

    Since about 10 yrs ago they have realised where Singapore is headed, and have been asking & trying to find a solution to kickstart “creativity” in Singapore ie tech startups, arts scene, filmmaking etc.

    Regarding the apartment prices, that is directed related to the limited supply of land.
    Singapore is a tiny city state of about 7 milion in an area smaller than London.

    It is a horrible place to live.
    Small place, nothing to do, no culture, nothing, just work work & shopping in the malls for leisure.
    A rat race.

    The 3 main races are: Chinese/Indians/Malays. who all worship whites. It is chronic.
    As the place is about 70% chinese one can expect:
    Very very materialistic. Very status & race conscious.

    Multi-cultural in name but the 3 main races are basically segregated, rarely socialising with each other outside the office.

    Chinese, as usual, have a superiority complex & look down on all the poorer darker people of within Singapore & the neighbour SE Asia countries, but look up & kiss whiteys ass.
    The place is basically the Asian hub in SE Asia for USA/UK/German/Japanese corporates

  253. hey guys i found many of your posts interesting and wanted to express my feelings and how i am in a similar situation.
    I am an asian-american male college student. Growing up in America I have for some reason only been attracted to WF. All my life I’ve been trying to be the “cool asian” or the “white asian” dude. I have almost denied my culture in an attempt to be white, i dress white act white but i will know i will never be white. I get embarassed when people subtly joke about me being asain etc. How can I embrace my asianess whilst living in a white society? I try and go for WF but i mostly get stuck in the friend zone, how do i move beyond this? Most of the time i try and be more than friends, but I lack the moves to get beyond this.
    Also side note. I was at a college party a while back. I was approached by this very sexy WF she told me she had a fetish for asian guys. I really couldn’t respond i didnt know what to do. She was all over me and we danced a little and talked but I really didnt know what to do from there.

  254. “How can I embrace my asianess whilst living in a white society?”

    You could do a few things.

    1. Learn the language if you don’t know it already.
    2. Get in touch with your roots. Like, where your family came from, what life was like for them back in the day. Certainly do visit relatives in Asia. If Irish, Jewish, Dutch, Persian, Lebanese and Italian descent Americans can do this without problems I don’t see why an Asian wouldn’t.
    3. Build worthy connections with other Asian people. E.g, friendships, professional alliances, other bonds.
    4. Explore cultural products e.g. songs and music, poetry, books and writings, philosophical and political discourses, history, food, visual arts, etc.

    I suspect that you wouldn’t want to be an “Asian” Asian. Nonetheless, why should embracing your heritage and roots be subject to the approval of white peers? The ultimate goal is for you to be seen as an individual first – with individual preferences, ideals, motivations, backgrounds, etc – and Asian second. Most probably you will only be able to change how you see yourself and how others see you when you can be strong enough to break away from the need for their approval and stand your ground.

  255. “I try and go for WF but i mostly get stuck in the friend zone, how do i move beyond this? Most of the time i try and be more than friends, but I lack the moves to get beyond this.”

    Getting beyond the friendzone has nothing to do with moves. If you don’t want to remain in the friendzone the best thing to do is to not get into it in the first place. So if a girl is not really into you but wants to string you along, you just keep walking and keep looking for another girl who is interested in you. Some girls just want to get a better sense of who you are. You can leave that door open but you can also make it clear that you want the physical and emotional intimacy that being “just friends” cannot fulfil. Of course you don’t blab any of this out in front of them, don’t be so literal. But you and I and women know that you can’t touch friends, you don’t arouse them, you can’t fuck them and you certainly can’t snuggle up with them and spoon with them whenever you want to. These are all unsaid matters…

    Getting it on with women is also always easier if you have some advantages over the competition. How would you rate yourself in terms of looks? Also how would you rate yourself in terms of sense of style, social ability and social status and influence within your peer group as well as wider society?

  256. “Also side note. I was at a college party a while back. I was approached by this very sexy WF she told me she had a fetish for asian guys. I really couldn’t respond i didnt know what to do. She was all over me and we danced a little and talked but I really didnt know what to do from there.”

    A video demonstration might help, but I don’t know where to get a good video. Does anyone else here know?

  257. @Swolepatrol

    since the girl gave obvious signs of interest and you stated she’s “sexy”. you can just “physically escalate” at the right time and place. things are easier with alcohol and where the both of you are in an isolated area. maybe in a room at a house party, dark corner of a club somewhere etc…..

    eye contact is and physical flirting (touching at the high point of conversation or jokes). eye contact again, caressing. that should be a done deal if she’s already coming on to you. you just need to not fuck it up and kill the vibe.

  258. @ Swole

    1/ Friend zone

    Usually this means that “you are not her type” (race?) or “she’s not into you”
    There is virtually zero chance of this changing.

    You are wasting your time if you want more than a friend

    2/ Whitewashed

    Truth is no matter how you deny your asianess [fill in country] or avoid being “too Asian” or how cool you act, you will always be seen by whites as Asian.

    Don’t try to maintain the act of try-hatd, white wannabe.
    it is a very tiring to maintain the act & causes anxiety.

    Try “embracing” more of your asian side by enhancing language skills, customs, culture, history, current affairs.

    As for “Asian” Asian freinds, I would avoid them unless you genuinely like them or have common interests eg white girls.
    Otherwise, as is common with certain “AZN pride” Asians, they will just give you negative reinforcement, all that analysis-paralysis repressed shit & drag you down to their level.
    Crab mentality.

    Ultimately with this fake persona discarded, you will feel more comfortable within your own skin, less pressure/anxiety.

    Now how will this make me more attractive to white girls, you ask?

    It’s a fact that not every white girl will be attracted to you.
    However there ARE some white girls who are genuinely interested in your culture.
    This Asian side can also be your USP (unique selling point) if you are in tune with your culture.
    How would it look if you knew nothing about it or worse, like many Asian bishes bragged about being whitewashed (as a compliment) or talked shit about the culture & Asian dudes…?

    And for these types of white girls interested in the culture, why would she prefer some Asian white wannabe tryhard when she can have the real thing ie a real white guy?

    Some white people see thru it that you are uncomfortable with your Asianess & tryharded-ness – and it just makes you look weak & stupid.
    You will lose respect with the girl & look bad. Not good in her eyes.

    Don’t be like certain Asian bishes.

    Don’t be “that guy”

  259. I don’t agree. It’s kind of generalizing. Sure not all white girls will like you. But you can go further and say not all girls of any ethnicity will like you too.

    In my life, I’ve dated white girls the most. I never went in thinking, “she won’t like me cause I’m Asian.”

    My advise is you just don’t know who’s going to want you unless you try.

    Also, try not to be too picky. Looks do fade. I see a lot of people I know hold out for a 8+ but live pretty lonely lives The biggest obstacle I see men have is their self entitlement.

    And I don’t agree you can’t get any from someone your in the “friend zone” with. Again, it is another generalization. It really depends on who the guy and girl is. Lots of relationships are started through friendships. I think the key word is attraction, the friend zone is okay as long as there’s a mutual attraction. Lets put it this way, if you’re attracted to a girl you’re friends with. Try telling her you are or maybe giving her a kiss. See how she reacts. One of 3 things will happen. It may weird her out and she’ll never wants to speak to you again, she can explain to you she doesn’t see you in that way and wants to continue to be your friend, or she can reciprocate.

  260. I don’t agree with Aggro’s suggestion of avoiding “Asian” and “AZN pride” Asians. To embrace your asian side, you have to understand asian culture and people, accept the good, bad and ugly of asians and the culture. Only then, you can make peace with you asian side and fully accept yourself.

  261. @ Moronboshi

    Butthurt much? Whatever makes you feel better calling her ugly.

    Typical fragile delusional Asian male. Always claim to be “#1 at everything”
    Every white girl who would not even look at you or you can’t get is either:
    too ugly, too slutty, wrong hair color, too fat, too thin, too dumb, too poor, too snobby, doing the wrong degree, too bitchy, too busty, too tall, too short, pointy elbows…and on it goes

    Yes – we have heard it all before from you
    You will have the perfect girl – after you get that degree & land that perfect job.
    It will “just happen”.
    I’m sure you’ll have supermodels chasing you AND you have the pick of the bunch to marry. Only perfection for you. You are too good for everyone.
    Have you looked in the mirror, like, ever? LOL

    Attacking the messenger doesn’t take away from the message.
    She’s actually done a favor in revealing what a lot of women (non Asian) are thinking.
    Truth hurts.

    All of you living vicariously thru J Lin, it’s as if all of your hopes & dreams are pinned on him. It’s pathetic
    Every insult to him, you take personally

    Be intellectually honest instead of the internet tough guy

    Yes J Lin is representing the AM in sports.
    People are respecting him as a decent person & good guy
    Don’t get me wrong it’s a start, he’s done great. It’s his life.

    But sexually?
    He is still seen by most women (non-Asian) as a “good guy”, a neutered monk.
    The “friend” in the friend zone.

    We have already seen this version in Michael Chang.
    Nice guy. Christian & all that. Virgin at 36 when he got married.

    Does the world need another Asian “nice guy” type…
    Either that or they’re gay (Alexander Wang & Jason Wu – fashion designers)

    Otherwise it is yet playing up to the AM stereotype of the AM “nice guy”
    – predictable
    – humble
    – gentlemanly
    – intelligent
    – hardworking
    – middle class
    – filial piety
    – faithful to his wife
    – monk waiting to get married to the right Asian girl…

    In short: unexciting, boring to many women (OTHER than AF)
    It ain’t gonna get their panties wet
    Will he have groupies other than AF…LOL

    When asked about the rumor of Kim Kardasian, Jeremy Lin said “Kim Cardasian not my ‘type’.”
    Not the respionse from a typical virile stud.
    He should have turned it around in a joking way “Kim Kardasian is totally hot and I would – but first of all I’ve got to find a bigger apartment than the one I’m in right now..” or something funny/witty.
    Any Black dude (versed in “The Dozens” verbal jousting game would have a damned witty response, guaranteed)

    That way you win more female fans AND say something about yourself & make yourself look good..

    But in terms of personality types there also needs to be more Asian men in the public eye who are one or more of the follwing:
    – loud
    – outspoken
    – funny
    – cocky
    – arrogant
    – “player” with new girlfriend every month ala A-Rod
    – studly
    – bad boy/dangerous
    – thug (yes ala Alan Iverson)
    – etc

    How odd would it be to see every WM or BM the same “nice guy” type?

    Jeremy Lin, is a good role model for young Asian males who want to go into sports.
    That’s all.

    If you want some studly Asian role model, look elsewhere

    Or be the change yourself by getting with, seen with & fucking white girls.

    Just don’t live vicariously thru J Lin.
    Pretty sure all the nuthuggers holding onto his nuts are weighing him down.

  262. @Swolepatrol

    Are you being serious or are you taking the mick?

    Have a read of my above posts and see if you can get something from them. I may seem a bit mad, but I speak from experience.

    You should be proud of being Asian (this is where I am unsure whether you are being truthful about being insecure about being Asian or just seeing if you can get a response and then chuckle over people like me who you dupe into wasting time replying rather than working out in the back). You are who you are and you should be proud of it.

    I doubt whether you had to fight almost everyday of your life between the ages of 11 to15 because people picked on you for being Asian (what sort of Asian are you? Like where from). I had to and got battered once. I was a wimp so got bullied a lot but I also got very violent when people insulted my friends or I had to protect younger CHinese from racist abuse:

    1. Me 12 years old(5 foot tall ) vs Kevin (5 foot 8) 15 years old. My younger Chinese friends were with me and we were getting insulted so I challenged him. He backed down even tho he would have battered me. One of my little friends is now a Wing Chun master and ironically, one of his students in WC is now an academic student of mine.

    2. Me (10) vs Bobby (local serious hard knock) (11). I knocked him off a wall and could have broken his back. Got him crying.

    3. Me (10) vs J (5 foot 6) (13) I strangled him and got him crying like a girl.

    I was quite active politically as well. (Not now).

    I am almost 50 and I do heavy weights and bag work. I am not a toughie at all. But I am quite skilled at a particular sport and was a national champion at a lower level. I have no problems attracting women even half my age. Not so long ago I had this really pretty blonde of 20 years old with an AMAZING figure (that’s what attracted me to her) chasing me but my ex (almost 20 years younger and part time model) put me off her. So if I am not handsome, am short, am almost 50, am balding, don’t have much money can, then so can you!! I am not bragging about how white women are attracted to me because I am this great guy. I am trying to show people that have these barriers in their minds, that that’s what they are – “all in the mind”.

    Yesterday, I met this gorgeous gorgeous 20 year old (well I don’t know – I am a bit worried that she might be younger) and I know I have no chance and it would be unsuitable etc etc (save that I did meet a man in his eighties today who was married to a woman in her fifties) but I chatted to her, made her laugh etc. Surely you can do that? You owe it to yourself to push the boat out.

    I have a Chinese mate, admittedly very handsome, who had a stunning white girlfriend. Really really beautiful like something out of Vogue. I myself have dated an ex Vogue model/ ex page three (type) girl. So, honestly, I don’t see what your problem is.

    I have mainly “dated” white and one black girl. I don’t have much contact with Chinese ones – there is one that I fancy but she is taken (by a not-slim white guy). She has kids anyway. But I live in the UK. Maybe it is different in America (as in white girls don’t date Chinese guys?). I think there is prejudice against the Chinese definitely and that really angers me – we seem to be emascualated in American media (in the UK we do watch American programs) whereas say black men are shown as sexual and masculine and (where it suits like in rap -dangerous). I have noticed in recent years, more and more white girls are crazy about even average black guys. All they seem to need to do is put on a bit of a show (nice suit, dreads or whatever it is) and they immediately look like they are in the entertainment business and young white women really go for that. They are on a winning streak.

    So for a young Chinese guy, I guess you have to be a lot more “positive” and show that you are definitely interested. You have to compete – you have to.

    I notice that I was taught by my CHinese elders not to ask for things. It was impolite and showed you as being cheap. Brother, if we live in a white society, we have to ask. I remember when I was a kid and had sweets, the white kids would beg for them off me. They seemed very greedy and appetite orientated. In some ways, we need that as well because otherwise we will be at the back of the queue. If you want a girl, your mind may go crazy saying “I can’t embarrass myself”. You have to embarrass yourself and the more you do it, the less painful it is. It is just part of life – to ask.

    Also, if you are with a girl, try and be the man. Protect her physically and have a plan. I have always been weak with these things but you can do better.

    I also recommend developing your physique. I have received a bit of flak from people here (I get flak in real life too) for suggesting that young men need to be stronger physically (as if) they were going in an MMA contest. Listen, women love it. I am not a body builder etc. I have a slim but muscular body and the reason is because of my sport and my interest in self-defence. People may knock it because they live in a nice environment etc but the world is not cosy anymore. I see violence frequently and have in the past broken up fights etc (I really don’t recommend this – it can be dangerous). I wouldn’t do it now.

    Why am I writing all this? You might be a mick taker.

  263. BTW Kevin was 5 foot 8 not smile – now sure how that got there.

    @ Aggro

    I laughed at your comments on Singapore. How come you can see it and Singaporeans can’t? What concerns me about Singapore is these Chinese deny being Chinese. Some hate China….full of thieves etc. Mind you loads of men go there for “golf” holidays so it can’t be all that bad! I always support China in football. For me it’s the motherland but I think that is a figment of my imagination because the Chinese do not see me as Chinese.

    I remember how I was reading a magazine and it said “Singapore girls are beautiful”. The report was how Eileen Ford said this and so it must be true That was quite disturbing, in that it implied acceptance by Singaporeans that the bench mark for beauty was the white model agency.

    @Aggro and Swolepatrol

    The “something” – again, it sounds like I am bragging about how “I can get white women”. Not true of course. What I am saying is that if you were one of these “Asian ” men who want a white woman but get all upset because you can’t (blub blub blub) I have components of the missing link. I would say it is a combination of physical prowess in my sport, hard muscle, sense of humour, being friendly and liking people (male and female) socially. I am of course, pro-choice, whatever is good for you, I hope you get it. It could be a three foot pygmy or whatever.

    @Swolehole

    I think it would be an interesting experience to date a white woman for Asian guys who keep going on about how they want one and can’t get one etc etc. It’s not the “be all and end all” and they aren’t necessarily as pretty as on the mag covers when they don’t have any make up on. (In the UK many “babes” rely heavily on make up) Plus (sorry for being so shallow) but you have to realise that they can be very very very white/pink without tan. If it floats yer boat – great. If it puts you off, you need to know the reality, embrace it and love it. At the end of the day, you shouldn’t be as shallow as me and so you should go for personality as well. Some very modest looking people have fantastic marriages.

  264. Oops – sorry it wasn’t “Swolehole” Not sure where that came from. Had a very very tiring day at work. I really really apologise (not that there is anything wrong with being a “Swolehole”) …dig dig dig. Sorry

  265. I think that with younger women, much of their dating choices are dictated by peer pressure and pop culture. These are after all the tools with which youths are indoctrinated into patterns of desire for all sorts of things from consumer products to identity and world views.

    Many women might not date you just because the idea of dating an asian man has been put into a lacuna, sort of like a memory hole, because of pervasive media invisibility. So they have absolutely no conception of what to expect. This is what retards like chr who constantly chime “columbia university study” cannot understand despite doing his best to appear smart like he knows it all, rofl.

    That said asian men do better with independent minded, confident and adventurous women. Race and perceptions of race will play a part in mating and partnership choices but there are other factors, and plenty of things you can do so that your are not constrained by it. Being bolder and taking the initiative is one thing. One thing i steongly encourage is looking past temporal or tactical fixes and instead pay attention to strategic goals you can start with immediately to play on existing strengths and build up other areas over time.

  266. Aggro: Yeah, well she isn’t hot as she thinks she is. I get it, the Lin thing was a joke. No biggie. I just thought it was kind of funny how quickly he was dismissed by someone not all that.

    Nope, not saying you’ll have the perfect girl. See that’s the problem in the first place, all you PUA guys expect to get the perfect girl. No one is ever perfect.
    Not saying I can get the pick of the litter but I never let my Asianness effect me on who I’m going or not going to approach.

    Not living through J Lin but I have seen many friends with children showing them J Lin doing well in the NBA to show an Asian man can do well in sports.

    I’m guessing you don’t like Lin but maybe you can like this guy.

    http://distinctkickingmotion.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/park-strong1.jpg?w=259&h=300

    Married to a blonde white woman. Whoop Di Doo! Richard Park – Pittsburgh Penguins.
    All those adjectives you describe, you’ll find that stuff on any PUA site.

    Too bad it isn’t easy to change who you are.

    “To Thine Own Self Be True” simple words from Shakespeare, a white guy.

  267. @ Rag – thank you for saying things so well.

    Re: “I’ve had those weasel words “you’re the only one getting in trouble, what’s wrong with you?” line used on me a little too much. People who ask that come from only two places. Fortunate circumstances so that they’ve never really had to take a good hard look at eveything they’ve taken for granted. ……I could tell people a lot of things i’ve seen that people just cannot believe happened…..They lived very safe and comfortable lives, they dont want to think about what if it were THEM on the other side of he tracks …… ”

    It’s amazing how naive fortunate people are TBH I was the same in my younger days. Then I lived in London where PC Blakelock was hacked to death by a mob. The names of one of the suspects was daubed across our fence *Free Silcott” and we never dared to remove it. In younger days,I thought I could talk my way out of anything, then got mugged by a black dude threatening to blow my balls away (plus my dad was almost mugged (see above) but hit the guy) ; my black best friend (a girl) had the temerity to look away from an approaching self styled Yardie (Jimmy – I knew who he was) and he opened the freakin door!!!! He had to be pulled away from her screaming “Dontcha cut your eyes at me or I’ll box yer face”. I saw West Indian men freaking out with Asian shopkeepers; black girl freaked out at me for breaking up a fight Called me a “stupid Paki”. I saw black youths on several occaisons threaten people on public transport and referring to knives or whatever. One day I met this nice black guy and he drove me to his flat. We were discussing black issues and music. Nice fellah. I subsequently found out from a client that he had threatened to knife her fellah and he had been alleged to have carried out a girl from a night club and raped her. I had a British (presumably Jamaican) boy for a client. He flipped in front of me, screaming down the phone “I’m gonna mash you up” etc etc. I was almost sexually assaulted by a black guy (bigger and younger than me) wanting to suck me off but I was aggressive with him and he backed off. I also saw a young white guy literally punch this old fellah in the face near Waterloo. On two occasions I had huge steroided white guys face me down. Just a few days ago, I saw a guy screaming at a woman to get out of this house and she was screaming back. I thought he was going to beat the crap out of her. He was with a kid as well.

    I could tell you more but I can’t be arsed. The list goes on and on and on……and I saw it with my own eyes. Statistically what does that say, given that I am not omnipresent? It happens A LOT. For a person to not have seen anything like this, they must live a very fortunate life. Unfortunately, most people don’t.

    “If you are a man, you MUST have a nuclear option. Dont fool yourself into thinking its all about ego and bravado, although in a lot of cases it applies. The reasoning is simple: if you’re a man there will always be people counting on you to do your part in protecting them and standing up for them. ”

    My dad needed his strength when he beat off a mugger. The guy will probably think again about mugging a Chinese guy.

    I personally recommend just giving your money away if you are mugged. It’s not worth the Aggro. At the very least you might wreck your nice clothes and at the other extreme, you could die. But if there is no escape, you have to fight.

    I think also if you are well built and can fight, the cowards are slightly less likely to go for you. If you know you have a nuclear option, it is possible that they will smell it as well by the way you carry yourself.

  268. Well, that’s what social decay will look like for you. We both know that while people fought each other for decades over CRUMBS a lot of others got very rich and went on expensive holidays, owned islands etc overseas.

    But anyway, have you ever thought about moving out? Much of all this seems like a dead end to me.

  269. @Rag

    Yeah – I did move out (like a fair proportion of people by reason of the threat of violence) and back home which is kind of upper middle class and very civilised. However, one still works in these scallywag areas.

    The horrible thing is that a lot of people in the neighbouring city (to where I live now) are on roids. They are huge.

  270. Yo thanks for everything guys.
    I think its different for me in college, people are just looking to hook up etc.
    I think im a pretty social dude, i always break the barrier of race in many things i do.
    Maybe people are just young and not looking for anything more than physical attractive i dont know. As for looks who ever asked me this I’d say im prolly like a 6 out of ten i could be bigger (muscular) but i feel like i just have enormous cheeks while i would like to tone down and have a more chisled face. the weird part is that im not fat, my body fat % is very low yet my cheeks are pretty big..

  271. Ha, don’t worry about your cheeks. There’s a high possibility you look fine. Women don’t respond to looks in the same way that men do. The majority of men look fine to women although their looks may not work as super-normal releasers like for fortunate guys rofl. Women respond to behavioral cues more but its not about moves or tactics. They respond to behavior because they want to get a sense of who you are.

    Keep on approaching women confidently and assuredly. Don’t talk so much. Most importantly try to recognise women who are looking for guys and who are open to you. You won’t necessarily find them at parties. I recommend approaching them anywhere and anytime it is acceptable to do so.

    The woman you mentioned at the party, do you know where a woman’s erogenous zones are? Apart from the obvious, inside of upper arm, palms, the whole neck and throat running down to her cleavage, ears, lips, waist, small of back, inside of thighs, buttocks, armpits, side of breasts, underside of breasts running up to the circle around her areola. These parts respond to firm and light pressure. You use light pressure when you want to tease and arouse lightly. Firm pressure is more primal but she must be ready and receptive. If she isn’t yet then you continue teasing.

    Feel free and uninhibited enough to look like you’re looking at the most beautiful woman on earth. If she responds, assuredness and calm control can be a super-normal releaser. Friendliness and chattiness can make you more approachable and seem safer, but eventually you’ll need to move from there. For a more primal message, then look at her like you need to ravish her on the spot in full view of everybody. But once you do this you must be consistent and you cannot let up.

    For tone of voice drop it lower and modulate it so you speak slower. Distance for physical intimacy and the beginning of making out is within half an arm’s length. You cannot jump this distance, she must feel comfortable and want your touch. You can tease her by speaking softly into her ear and letting your lips brush her hair, ear and neck. You may excite her by telling a brilliant joke, never try too hard but if she’s comfortable enough to be disinhibited and into you enough she will laugh much anyway. If she’s really comfortable, you can clasp her hands, or hold her so that you’re waist to waist and nose to nose. You can exite her by lifting her up and twirling her around (you must have the strength to do so and it’s probably good to practice first with the proper sandbags of corresponding weights at the gym).

    I seldom fondle a woman’s private parts before at least kissing her. In general I think this is a good rule. Kissing is as simple as starting from a comfortable distance so neither you nor her needs to lean in too much, start with a look of mutual desire (this will seem like a trance), and just lean in for the kiss.

    Do you know how to kiss a girl? There are many types of kisses, ranging from tender to primal desire. The key is to do what feels right for you and to read, always read how your partner is responding. Also feel free to be creative if you already locked lips. Never step above hard boundaries. You can tease, and you can back off and come again if its just uncertainty or insecurity on her part, but a firm rejection, stopping or pulling away means a firm no. You can tease and try to come back but you must respect her boundaries and her feelings. Never make her feel like you are using her in any way or violating her boundaries. This is a good habit to keep.

    Now you do all this and if the girl is into you the logical thing may seem that it will lead to sex. Always do what feels honest to you with no doubt. However bear in mind that no means no and that it really is better that way. A woman may make out and do all sorts of things and yet not want sex at the moment for all sorts of reasons. If you read scientific texts on game theory in reproduction we may discuss this at a later time. But for the moment acknowledge that she may have very good grounds, such as perhaps an outbreak of venereal disease, or maybe she wants to know you better first before progressing to sex, among other very valid reasons. Women have all sorts of insecurities as well that can prevent them from acting on desire. Never feel that they are cockteasing you or have complete power over you.

    Now young one let us move on to the topic of the proper venues for sexual intercourse and the technical details of how to go about it….

    Moroboshi what are your thoughts so far? Could I give a PUA guru a run for his money? LOL

  272. @ Moronboshi: Also, try not to be too picky. Looks do fade. I see a lot of people I know hold out for a 8+ but live pretty lonely lives The biggest obstacle I see men have is their self entitlement.

    Our delusional repressed clown is projecting once again speaking based on experience
    Can it be more obvious. No need to read between the lines in his statement
    You can almost smell the desperation & how he lives his life.

    Swole just wants to hookup – and Moronboshi is already thinking 20 yrs ahead about “looks fading”, ostensibly about marriage & being married for 20 yrs.
    Bwahaha..

    Gotta love this desperate clown – it’s one reason why this blog is so entertaining
    He & his fantasy life lived out on Second Life or whatever plays..

    When any girl talks to him, he’s already thinking marriage, mentally preparing the wedding list, hearing wedding bells & thinking of children. LOL

    That’s why my advise to Swole was to AVOID THIS type of Asian clown.
    Their mentality is so backward it will just mindfuck you with negative reinforcement & ass-backwards thinking like thinking about marriage after just talking to a girl
    They do nothing but drag you down to their level & thinking, instead of helping you positively.
    Crab mentality.

    It must really blow his little mind but – gasp – many women actually seek hookups AND enjoy it! Before marriage! LOL

    It must also blow his tiny mind that there are SOME horny Asian Men also – gasp – seek sex with sexy babes for fun. BEFORE marriage.

    Oh noes – not like many of you living like neutered monk virgins or eunuchs until marriage when you suddenly become a stud will “just happen”!

    And yes Moronboshi – we know you get Supermodels chasing after YOU & YOU get the pick of the bunch.
    It will “just happen” b/c your parents promised you after you get that degree & land that perfect job..

    LOL

  273. @ Aggro

    Moroboshi is making sense. What you fail to realize is that MOST women, even in college, are more relationship oriented than random sex oriented. This idea that most coeds are ready to jump into bed with just any guy, as some kind of sexual adventure or experiment, is more the fantasy of Hollywood directors than anything else. I don’t deny that this happens in some cases, but just not the majority.

    It always fascinates me that guys think that they can spend their formative years screwing everything that moves, and then believe that somehow magically, one day they will meet “the right girl” and become capable of having a stable and meaningful relationship with her.

  274. @ King

    I doubt you can talk any sense to this guy. He obviously has no experience with women and gets his ideas from reading PUA sites. This guy didn’t have to announce he’s a PUA follower and you can tell by his posts that’s what he bases his life on. The last posts, he mentioned crabs in a barrel which Byron said is something the Asian Guru dude talked about. These PUAs have a robot mentality. They can’t ever think for themselves. They are at best a parrot, who recite everything the guru teaches them.

    I’ll add this. Lets say all the stuff Agro says about me is true. I’ll take all that than being a loser who needs to pay someone thousands of dollars to teach you how to be a man.

    That’s the worst thing about PUA. They create these angry people who have no direction on what to do lashing out at whoever doesn’t agree with them. Why aren’t they more fun and be cocky, funny like they teach each other to be? PUA mentality = I’m fat and ugly, I get to take pictures with chicks. Give me your money!

  275. ROFL!!!! That last paragraph of yours is a killer, Moroboshi. XD

    We should caution that it may cause mental disturbances in APUA (Angry Pickup Artists).

  276. No one is talking about the PUA shit.

    Hookups & PUA not one & the same.
    Hookups were around since the year dot – before PUA was ever formalised.
    So get that into your head before spitting that “$3500″ shit

    We are talking about Swole. Swole is looking for hookups

    Yes, @King no one gives a shit about MOST. Stop playing statistics.
    There are SOME women who are looking for hookups, experimenting before they marry.
    So SOME GUYS are sexing them.

    So who is sexing them – not the likes of Moronboshi, that’s what.

    Just by reading Moron’s advise, he’s drilling in to Swole to think 20 yrs ahead of marriage (“looks fade”), basically seeing EVERY GIRL as a marriage prospect ONLY.

    Moronboshi sounds like the typical Asian father. Fuck him. How old is he – 30+ yo?

    Totally out of sync with his kids, the new generation, everything has passed him by.
    They program their kids to think of marriage for the 1st girl they meet.

    Even if a female rubbed herself on Moron_boshi asking for sex, he wouldn’t know it if it hit him in the face

    B/c he has never had a hookup
    B/c he is THAT type of repressed Asian
    He like many Asian males don’t have a sexual urge – it’s not natural.
    They’re fucking repressed eunuchs. All they can do is REPRESS their sexual urge, instead of meeting & interacting with women naturally

    All his programming has done to him
    to think 20 yrs, after mnarriage

    I bet Moronboshi is some 30+ yo loser in some safe job.
    Unmarried, still looking for that “perfect” Asian bride.

    All that education – with their “IQ” & “highest average salary” (LOL) calling card – and he like many Asian males still haven’t figured out how to win in the mating game as they get outcompeted by other races.

    LOL

  277. @ Moronboshi

    Hey boy, despite making fun of others & PUA, you seem have all that PUA shit on the brain.
    You seem to be the resident expert on the subject.

    For someone who purports to despise PUA, the fucker has made more references to PUA on this & other threads, than anyone on this board

    One wonders why & how come…admit it.

    Like your SAT tests, you must have paid extra to have extra tuiition, memorized all the “theory” down pat…you scored 100% in the written tests.
    But in practice you were gutless, got nowhere (with your fake pickiness, analysis/paralysis), & all you did was whack off by yourself

    PS. don’t come at me accusing me of PUA & all that shit, boy.
    I don’t need that shit. No well socialized person needs it.
    Only hermit AM like you pining for that perfect AF.
    B/c we all know you’re the resident PUA expert (but theory only)

    LOL

  278. “Just like Chr, Aggro is only able to sing one tune”.

    LOL…And guys like you can’t sing PERIOD!

    “Moroboshi is making sense. What you fail to realize is that MOST women, even in college, are more relationship oriented than random sex oriented”.

    Which makes a lot of sense since MOST non-Asian women nowadays aren’t so keen in starting relationships with AMs. Something that Moroboshi denies, because to him Asian guys are doing fine just like any “alpha male”. A stupid term coined mostly and unfittingly by Asian circles, both PUA and non-PUA alike.

    He says Asian Men are angry because of the IR dating disparity, which is unwarranted, and based mostly out of jealousy due to the lack of reciprocity from WFs. He then comes in full circle to say that AMs can get any women they want just like any other men. Clearly, this guy doesn’t make any sense!

    Ok, so the “Columbia University Interracial Dating Study” is a farse! How so, when in fact Asian guys are overrepresented in the school, and underrepresented in IR relationships in the same institution? Further, many women in the same school would rather not associate with them, indicative of real world Asian male/Non Asian female interactions.

  279. I might not sing but I have started learning to write Haiku.

    Here is one inspired by the folks who can only sing one tune for years, with the sole variation being their pitch and tempo.

    Whine and cry on blogs all day
    That is the helpless Asian man’s way

    Any thoughts?

    I dedicate that to you.

  280. @ste how could a REAL Asian claim that penis stereotypes are true! stop trying to destroy our self-essteems!

  281. What’s that rule on anonymous cowards and if we really want them here?

    When one liners start never seeing the light of day will be when the Gollums fuck off back to their smelly holes.

  282. Chr: “He says Asian Men are angry because of the IR dating disparity, which is unwarranted, and based mostly out of jealousy due to the lack of reciprocity from WFs. He then comes in full circle to say that AMs can get any women they want just like any other men. Clearly, this guy doesn’t make any sense!”

    I’ve explained myself countless times but you’re so downtrodden by whatever you’re going through you never listen. All you ever sing is Asian men are undesirable. You never have any type of solution and continuously spout this fact off. I don’t see anything to gain by this even if it were true.

    When we’re talking about IR Disparity, are you talking about more BM dating WFs than AM dating WFs? Okay I’ll explain. BMs ask more women out than AMs. AMs do not ask women out as much as the other ethnicities. Can you say that’s not true? Anyone asking 10 women out while you asking 1. Guess who has the best chance of getting that date.

    I’ll even go further to say a lot AMs who complain about AFs not dating them don’t ask AFs out either. If you’re not going to do it, can you blame a WM for asking them out? Do you expect AFs to throw themselves at your feet just because you’re Asian? It’s as bad as an Asian filmmaker coming onto an AF/WM hate site asking for money, showing them films about AF/WM relationships. :)

    I’d like to know how many on this site have asked out many AFs in their life and had them tell you, “sorry, I don’t date AMs?” I mean, we do see many AF/WMs but could it be also because AMs aren’t doing there part asking women out? Is it always you being turned down because of you being Asian or is it something else? Don’t get me wrong, I do know AFs and AMs who day they don’t date Asian. They do exist but are not as big as some may think. Most of my Asian friends that I have have no problems dating women because we take the initiative to find them. I don’t think a bar or club are good places. Many meet their significant other through online including my friend who married, yes a cute blonde he met online. I also feel maybe joining a activity group can help. Of course my friend also is a great cook, reads a lot and is very interesting.

    The answer though isn’t simple as PUAs want to tell you. You can’t learn this in 3 days. You need to find the courage in yourself to ask these women out. No one can be there to hold your hand constantly. Also, proper grooming, be in decent shape, etc will help your odds.

    Blaming things not going you’re way because you are Asian is the cowards way out.

  283. ^ Part of the AM dating barrier is clearly a clash of cultural values and expectations.

    In many Asian cultures marriage does not have the same cultural definition as it does in modern Western cultures. Men are often expected to concentrate on this:
    1) Excel at education
    2) Excel in your career
    3) Amass some degree of wealth
    BEFORE focusing on marriage.

    If you really look at it, it makes logical sense doesn’t it? First concentrate on the things that will largely effect your economic social position in life and THEN you are ready to share your life with somebody else. The only problem is that if you live in the midst of a culture that sees love and marriage as something that you “fall into” like a hole in the ground—something you can’t control—that “just happens to you,” then the plan may not work as expected.

    You may find that most women are looking for men that can give them a certain “feeling” when they approach them. They often want someone who sounds confident and experienced, not a guy who’s been monastically studying for a 4.0 GPA, then Deans list, then MCATS, then working 24 hours a day as an intern etc. etc. That guy may be a great guy otherwise, but he’s probably going to have some problems suddenly turning on the “sexy button” that he’s had to lock into off position for years, in order to achieve his other goals.

    That’s really the problem. It’s not so much that Asian culture is stupid or messed up, it’s that while Asian culture is immersed within a larger, more influential culture with different values, the Asian values can SEEM not to make sense because it cuts against the grain of the predominant cultural thinking.

  284. @Wiggles

    I think I know which passages you are referring to but am not entirely sure. Perhaps you could tell me.

    I think that there are clearly differences in physical attributes of the different races. West Africans and of those descended from slaves in the West have great physiques and physical strength. If you look at Premiership footballers, the fact that there are a disproportionate number of powerfully built black men is testimony to that. Same with boxing or MMA. Generally, Chinese have smaller/lighter frames (per capita) and that is reflected in sports successes and orientations.Sun Jihai was a Man City footballer and I remember reading an article where he said that he had to do a lot more training than his colleagues due to his genetic makeup. You interpret that. He said it, not me.

    I have two close white female friends (both very attractive) who have been telling me how they had been with black men and very much enjoyed having sex with them. Don’t shoot me for that! It was they who had the sex and who then told me!

    This is of course, just information. In no way am I saying that they are superior to us etc etc. In the West, people are highly sexualised and this is media influenced. In recent years, in my work, I have visited many houses of white people. The younger ones often have (sounds like a generalisation but it is true – I was there. Probably visited about 2000 white people in their homes) music videos on with very highly sexualised imagery often with black gangsta musicians. If a society is highly sexualised, it will value machismo and penile size. English girls will not readily admit it outright of course but some will allude to it at some point. Over here, the proportion of the most attractive white girls that are with black men is quite staggering. One can only guess at the reasons why but I think that a lot is to do with masculine representations of black men in the media.

    I work with students and have seen many Chinese students. I must say that they de-emphasise the physical/masculine by their clothing and hairstyles. By contrast white guys walk around with huge muscles in t- shirts on a freezing cold day. Chinese young men are smaller and not muscular. It’s just a fact. I am not criticising. Nor am I saying that the Western ways are better. Westerners are incredibly superficial and value (too much) the outward appearance (e.g smoking as a kid means you are more mature; the taller you are as a candidate for the US presidency the better you are etc). But you have to remember that Western and African societies have historically been more warrior like and (arguably) less civilised than Chinese societies in the past few hundred years. As such symbols of machismo and masculinity may in truth be pile of BS, but they have a role in these societies.

    I think over time, the economic success of the Chinese will show that Chinese values are superior. Working together rather than asserting individual prowess and emphasising hard work over (superficial) signs of machismo (physical prowess; will size; deep voice etc). Chinese and Singaporeans since the 80’s have vastly improved their nations due to Chinese ethics, whilst the West has been obsessed with its willy size. In a way you might say many people in the West especially the lads, are “dick heads”, so penile concious are they. BTW did you find that Seth Rogan joke in Green Hornet quite offensive? I did and would I like to knock that bellend minded head off his block.

    So, Wiggles, it might be useful to read my other posts to see how I feel as a whole. Penile size is not everything and I don’t even commend it. What I am saying is “Okay, so this is the position. Just get on with it.”

  285. @ Ste, I don’t know what it’s like in the UK but if you come over to Asia, you’ll see that there is actually a wide range of body sizes and types among Asians. Body size and shape is heavily influenced not just by genetics but also the environmental expression of genes.

    When I was in school I hung out with a lot of teens from blue collar backgrounds, most of which had to help out their dads with labor early in the morning. They helped to lift bags of cement, sacks of rice, wooden coffins, tyres, drum baskets full of vegetables etc into the back of trucks before the crack of dawn and had hearty breakfasts of rice and pork after work was done before going to school. The majority of these kids grew very tall and broad. Even the ones who has smaller frames had very high muscle mass and packed a lot of strength. But when compared to the kids who came from white collar backgrounds, these kids didn’t use their bodies so much, and most of the time they would be spending time studying or watching tv. If they were lucky they’d get to play something every evening. These kids either grew up to have smaller frames, or the ones with big frames would be quite fat and soft.

    We used to arm wrestle in school before it was banned because some kids got spiral fractures of the humerus. I’ve stalemated bigger guys and also been defeated by smaller guys because it’s almost unbelievable the strength output they can put out. I’m glad to say that despite the kids who were better off material wise looking down on us, they didn’t dare to compete with us in anything that required any degree of physicality.

    If you go to a place and the people are mostly short then you may make the mistake of thinking that height is due to genetics or race, or something. But to what degree is this true? Look at Jeremy Lin’s father and compare the height between father and son. That sort of growth rate may not be possible in many parts of Asia due to differences in affluence restricting access to nutrition during a child’s growing years.

    As for the Chinese kids you’ve seen, their size and physicality may have to do more with the cultural background and demographic than their genes. After all only either the studious or rich kids get to go abroad to study in the UK.

    So yeah, I’ve seen plenty of small and average sized white and black guys. I don’t hold it against them or use it to form some kind of generalisation about them. If you take up my offer and come to visit Asia a few times over the years you’ll probably see more and more Asians and Chinese who are growing just as tall and large (hopefully not fat though) as the black folks you’ve mentioned.

  286. I can only hope though, that this sort of growth is natural and not due to exposure to bovine growth hormone or something horrid like that. +_+’

  287. ^ The growth hormone thing gets thrown around a lot, but height and muscle mass was clearly on the increase in the US long before growth hormones were being used commercially on meat stocks. Also, life time vegetarians in the US are no shorter than lifetime carnivores, although they tend to be leaner (as you would expect).

  288. King,

    I’ve asked myself the same thing about life time vegetarians, but let me ask this: were they vegetarians before they stopped growing or after? For example, I know a vegan couple. Their daughter is about five or six. I think she’s been vegetarian, but she has had a normal American diet of dairy products.

    I know Paul McCartney has been trying to get people to get off cow milk, but I wonder if that’s really good for kids.

  289. Well, when I’m referring to lifetime vegetarian, I mean vegetarians from birth until death. A large group of these can be found among a Christian denomination known as Seventh-day Adventists. They don’t end up growing any shorter than their meat-eating contemporaries.

  290. When I see an AM with a non-Asian woman who also happens to be very attractive that AM tends to appear very athletic. Tall, broad-shouldered, muscular, lean, etc. This leads me to believe that very attractive non-Asian women are not discriminating against Asian guys because they are Asian per say, but ARE discriminating in favor of a certain body type; it just might appear that they are discriminating against AM since Asian men tend to be smaller.

    This is therefore the reason why a higher percentage of Black men are able to date very attractive girls outside their race: the women like muscular attractive bodies and it just happens to be that Black men fit this bill.

  291. “This leads me to believe that very attractive non-Asian women are not discriminating against Asian guys because they are Asian per say”

    Yes, I’ve noticed that too.
    But they still seem to be more forgiving of skinny White guys (for example).

  292. Also ALL women seem to more quick to verbalize the “Asian guys aren’t masculine enough” stereotype when asked about their preferences directly. At least SOME of it has to be based on media stereotyping.

  293. ^ Add that the fact that Asian guys (as a whole) don’t seem to be as aggressive in seeking out girls to date as other Western subcultures.

  294. About skinny White guys getting hot non-Asians. They are an interesting case. 1), Skinny White guys are often tall, and 2), they have been able to successfully encapsulate the hipster/musician/bearded guy/emo look and have thus found a niche there. However, my experience from going to bars and clubs is that they play second fiddle to tall and muscular guys no matter what the race. Also, I have seen tall skinny Black guys do just as well in the bar and club scene as White guys with the same body type.

    When a girl says “I don’t date/like AM” oftentimes what she really means is that she likes tall athletic guys and that she does not associate AMs with that type of look. It oftentimes does not mean that she literally does not like Asian guys. For example, I know girls with that attitude who will say things like “he’s hot,” or, “I want him,” when they see a Asian guy (who doesn’t have to be famous) with the body of Jeremy Lin or Yoshihiro Akiyama. These attitudes back up a lot of my observations from the bar and club scene as most of the Asian guys with hot non-AFs tend to be rather athletic looking. Moreover I have heard non-Black guys say they aren’t into Black women but then they go on about how they want Naomi Campbell or Nicki Minaj. Campbell & Minaj have a look that does not fit what those guys believe to be typical of Black women.

    I too have noticed that AM are less gregarious and aggressive than males of other races, particularly Black guys who seem to do the best in many clubs.

  295. Well fun, most people when they say, “I’m not into X” are speaking in generalities… a minority are not and are speaking in absolutes. People are responding to group categorization and stereotypes.

    I knew a Korean guy named Tom from and old job. He was cool, and he came off as cool. He dressed cool, he talked cool, he flirted all the time, he had some money. So guess what? The women LOVED him. He got more play in that office than anyone. Girls used to literally tell the rest of us that we should be more like Tom. He was maybe 5′ 8″ (1 m 73 cm) not skinny, not buff, just fit. He wasn’t a model—nice looking, but in an average sort of way.

    He just had “something.”

    Most of the girls who were drooling over him would have probably said beforehand that they were not particularly into Asian guys.

  296. I feel we are getting somewhere now with the depth of the posts.

    I think Raguel mentioned the differences in body sizes in Asians in Asia. I have been to South East Asia many times and worked out a lot there, gym and swimming. I would say that a lot of younger Chinese guys are about 5 foot 8 or 9 and quite burly. This is a generalisation but still quite useful. There are a few very tall guys also but I would say they are mostly quite thin Both types are still much smaller than a lot of white and black guys in the UK. Honestly these guys are huge. Even the skinny ones are deceptively big boned. Most of the difference is in the size and depth of the torso and especially the size of muscle around the back area. I have to do weights to maintain a tiny bit of muscle but they seem to pile it on. Tissue begets tissue. Even women are huge. I know because I dance with them and if they have big torsos, it can be a job getting them around.

    There are loads of Chinese (I.e. from China) students here (I teach at Uni a bit so I see a lot of them) and I thought they would be very tall and big etc but they aren’t. They are taller but not muscular.

    The disadvantage with their body type is that they do get fat. I am not sure but I think their body types are not necessarily healthy. I myself try to do weights and bag training so I do look quite athletic. I am hoping to get my six pack back and increase my striking power on the bag.

    Someone else said:

    “I can only hope though, that this sort of growth is natural and not due to exposure to bovine growth hormone or something horrid like that. +_+’”

    I have noticed that people in the UK have got incredibly big and I think that this might be possible.

    Sorry for not quoting but whilst I agree with one person’s statement that if you are big and good looking, these qualities will transcend race, I do notice that with white and black guys, some of them are slackers and not even good looking, but they still pull more “crackers”. They are definitely at an advantage by reason of their race.

    When I think about my own experience, I think that I have been inhibited by things from my parents such as looking down on people who ask you for things (white people) ; the fear of embarrassment; being over sensitive to the needs or perceptions of others (Hak Hey; Ke ci) etc. These kinds of things really entangle you and screw you up and I hope you guys learn from my own failings. Sometimes doing something unusual (like seeing a beautiful woman and determining to chat her up) is quite painful physiologically. Your body is screaming “This is hard! Get out quick!” But if you don’t get on with it, someone else will. I met three really really beautiful women two weeks ago (okay I know one vaguely) and I made sure that I spoke to all three. Didn’t get anywhere but at least I gave one my email address.

    Also, i really really recommend some level of body building. I don’t have a fantastic build and concentrate on skills rather than looking good but I have experienced women feeling my muscles (not big) while speaking to me or constantly giving me long hugs and rubbing themselves against me. I know it sounds pervy but it isn’t. it is done in a jokey way. They will say little things like “ummm” or “I feel deprived” or “You have a tight body” etc. The reason is because (as I alluded above) a lot of white guys (and I am sorry to say this) are over big and overweight. Their flesh is looser. That’s the advantage of having a Chinese body….it’s worth putting on about 2 stone or muscle. (There are also practical advantages like when lifting gear and gardening).

  297. Sorry by saying “The disadvantage with their body type is that they do get fat” I meant Caucasians in the UK.

    Not writing too clearly. Should be asleep.

  298. “When I think about my own experience, I think that I have been inhibited by things from my parents such as looking down on people who ask you for things (white people) ; the fear of embarrassment; being over sensitive to the needs or perceptions of others (Hak Hey; Ke ci) etc. These kinds of things really entangle you and screw you up and I hope you guys learn from my own failings. Sometimes doing something unusual (like seeing a beautiful woman and determining to chat her up) is quite painful physiologically.”

    This is one of the main failings of PUA. The PUA answer to this is get a wingman, and shoes with lifts in them and start in trying to talk to beautiful girls! Just keep trying and you’ll get better as time goes on. And in a way that’s true… you actually WILL become better at being a Class A douche-bag. The trick is not to constantly badger women for their numbers in hopes of getting laid. If you’re constantly begging, you’re always going to sound like a beggar every time you open your mouth.

    Learn how to talk to women (even attractive ones) about random everyday stuff. Ask them about a product in their shopping cart, ask directions, or point out something funny. Learn how to be “normal” with these women instead of always being after something. Then one day when you meet someone beautiful, smart, and interesting, you can approach her easily and talk to her fluidly and without fear. You may be the best conversation she had that night. Then perhaps you may see her again. Work your way into someones interest and heart instead of throwing PUA lines at her like dead fish at a disinterested seal.

  299. Thanks for bringing up that Hak Hey and Ke Qi thing Ste. I just saw it recently at a reunion for extended family. This neurotic mother was constantly badgering her son every five seconds to “behave properly” i.e inhibiting himself and not helping himself to the food he wanted at the family dinner. It may have missed her damaged mind that we had purposely cooked extra so that everybody could have what they wanted and we could collect the leftovers for ourselves tomorrow. The sight chafed my tits greatly. She doesn’t know that in this day and age you must learn how to effectively ask for what you want? Her son is either going to grow up very rebellious or turn into a lousy withdrawn nerd. Stupid biatch. All these worthless values people cling to.

    ROFL, I don’t know why but when I think of the British I do not think of big and strong people. I mean, look at prince Harry and William. I’ve seen a lot of British exchange students also. They are not physically impressive, lol. I dunno, maybe we’re seeing different things. What you say may be true, I may just have some sort of selective perception. I think that my radar for aggression may be higher than for body size so that’s why I don’t notice it so much.

  300. @Rag

    “Thanks for bringing up that Hak Hey and Ke Qi thing Ste. I just saw it recently at a reunion for extended family. This neurotic mother was constantly badgering her son every five seconds to “behave properly” i.e inhibiting himself and not helping himself to the food he wanted at the family dinner….She doesn’t know that in this day and age you must learn how to effectively ask for what you want? ”

    Thank goodness someone else sees this. I thought I was going mad. My parents did it to me and honestly it really screws you up. It took me years to get over certain barriers. I think I will write a book about it or something. The weird thing is my parents wonder why I sometimes don’t stand up for myself and that has got to be a major reason. Then my mum will complain to me that Chinese young people get bullied in the work place or men end up single. Then how Chinese guys are not assertive etc etc and don’t have the ability to pull white women. These are not just things that we talk about on the internet. Our parents talk about it as well, but in a lot of ways, they are responsible for it too in the same way that they are responsible for getting their heads down and working effing hard so that we could get an education. Problem is that an education is only part of the equipment that a Chinese person needs to survive in an individualistic Western culture.

    “ROFL, I don’t know why but when I think of the British I do not think of big and strong people.”

    ROFLMAO. After a certain age they can lose muscle tone and get saggy but at the same time they seem to have more muscle mass (not that I am Purple Akkie – check it out!). I have a mate who does no exercise but his shoulders and back are much more built up than mine. He did used to box in the army and do judo I think. But I have to do a lot of weights to maintain some sort of mass. They have big wrists. I notice these things because in what I do, you need strength and they execute things a lot more easily than I without working out. I meet a lot of people (literally have met thousands in the past 4 years).

    I wish I could be taller as well – I am a short arse even by modern Chinese standards!

  301. I am glad no-one has replied to my last post. Why?

    Because it means that you are not perched in front of your laptop. You’re getting out there meeting people (good) meeting beautiful women (very good) working (ooops ….neutral).

    Come lads get on with it! Don’t be scared. If you fancy someone – say hello. Don’t be like me, with all this parentally influenced “ke ci” stuff creating these invisible lines that control your behaviour and that snag and suppress a man.
    It’s like if the woman is very very attractive, then I can get nervous and feel like it’s a privilege (hey maybe in my case it is – they only let me out of the straitjacket every month) but why? You fellahs are younger than me. don’t let the buggers get you down! It is painful sometimes when you make those steps to meet these fantastic unobtainable types – and they are not interested. But feel the pain and do it anyway and keep selling yerself.

    And the more you get out there, the easier it becomes for the next Chinese guy and slowly over the generations we won’t be seen as anonymous, sexless shadows of a man. I am not advocating racial superiority etc etc – just a level playing field for us.

  302. King: In many Asian cultures marriage does not have the same cultural definition as it does in modern Western cultures. Men are often expected to concentrate on this:
    1) Excel at education
    2) Excel in your career
    3) Amass some degree of wealth
    BEFORE focusing on marriage.

    King brings out an interesting point.

    This is called the “Provider” archetype. The problem is that the Provider archetype does not excite the ladies in that primal, vagina-tingling sense, which polite people refer to as “chemistry” or attraction. We are also well-aware of the fact that Asian culture is basically an extended boot-camp for churning out a race of males who excel at fulfilling the provider archetype.

    It also doesn’t help that mass Asian immigration to America occurred right after the great social engineering experiments of the 1960s, particularly feminism. Our parents values were shaped by having lived in poor countries recovering from wars and such. We were raised with these values which elevate the Provider ethic (work hard, study hard, get good grades and go to good college, get a good job as a doctor or engineer, all the usual Model Minority stereotypes). However, living by and raising an entire generation of kids by the code of Provider ethic makes sense in a poor country, where a certain kind of social contract exists. That social contract got shredded into oblivion when feminism happened. Basically, what I am trying to say is that the ethic of Provider values, exercised to extremes in the Asian community, combined with the radical changing social landscape of the 60s, which became reality by the time the children of the first wave of immigrants reach puberty, created the perfect storm that resulted in what we now call AM emasculation and explains everything from Amy Tan to IR discrepancy.

    I have always contended that the so-called AM emasculation is rooted more in the pathologies that exist in Asian community and it is good to finally see some people acknowledge that.

  303. @kobukson

    Re your comment: “I have always contended that the so-called AM emasculation is rooted more in the pathologies that exist in Asian community and it is good to finally see some people acknowledge that.”

    I think King has noble aspirations. He says the same sort of thing that I said two years ago. But what frustrates me is that it is more of the same. In recent years I have been observing features of dating and all my paradigms have been laid waste. Last year (you are going to laugh), me the old codger went on a student holiday. (!!!!!!!!!!!) Yeah, I did. There were some unbelievably attractive blonde females (the type that could get into FHM – I used to get it about 12 years ago not now). I am not kidding you, but they copped off with very ordinary looking black guys. (There was one really handsome black guy there – not him). I saw it on another student night out as well. I went to a competition and spotted two really really beautiful blonde white girls. By the end of the evening one black guy copped off with the best looking one and another black guy tried to chat up the other one and he didn’t get anywhere. And there was another really really stunning blonde girl (sorry I am going to get slated for worshipping blondes again) and she happened to be with a black guy (mind you for some reason she kept staring at me ). These women are what is conventionally regarded as hot (yes there is a convention because these sorts of girls get modelling jobs). I am not saying you should desire these women but because I am shallow, I do. I am not saying that you should fancy and go for them as well. What I am getting at is that I do fancy them but they are unobtainable. Whereas I have focussed on looks, you could replace it with something you liked such as interest in table tennis.

    If I was to go for these women, I would have absolutely no chance. Yes I have dated models but not this “hot” (by convention). I would feel like totally out of my depth and intimidated. The desire and intention are thwarted at source (me) and I think I have been indoctrinated to think that studying and working hard or being good at something (say dancing or musically) would get me what I wanted etc. It wasn’t true (unless the female shared the common interest) . In the sexual/relationship marketplace – these Confucian formulas may or may not work in Chinese society – but they are totally irrelevant in the Western in the early stages whereas “balls” are totally relevant. It took me so freaking long to learn that and had I had the fortune to meet Kobukson and Raguel earlier in my life, maybe I could have profited from their knowledge.

    Of course I would accept the criticism of being shallow. But like I say, you could replace “blonde and sexy” by whatever quality I liked and the result would be the same. A lower percentage level would choose me if they had other choices and this is by virtue of a prejudgment about me as an individual by reason of my race. Fortunately, I am in general terms, quite a confident person and I genuinely like meeting all kinds of people. But when it comes to “pulling” someone that I really really like then I get snagged up. I thought that “surely I deserve to be liked because of my achievements in…..X” and women are not that interested. This king fu doesn’t work.

    However what women have been more interested in me, are my athletic physique and physical abilities. That’s why I say to you young fellahs, work on your physique and your fighting ability (even if you are a born again Christian and never intend to use it – it is a visual deterrent).

  304. ^ while you’re out there trying to figure out why you cant snag a blonde girl I’m more interested in knowing how and why we find ourselves in this situation. I notice from your previous posts that you focus on the physical. I look at it as a spiritual disease. You and I have a very different view on the same issue.

    I am a Christian, albeit a highly flawed one. I am willing to offer you, and anyone else who’s interested for that matter, a Christian’s perspective on this matter as a spiritual condition.

    Your obvious fixation on blonde, white women is a form of idolatry. We live in a culture that is filled with media images, which are nothing but idols that represent different things: money, power, beauty, success, etc. We allow ourselves to be seduced by these images and worship these idols.

    A special kind of hell exists for the hopelessly brainwashed fool who desperately yearns for something that the media images tells him is the ideal absolute but also forbidden and eternally beyond his reach. Yet his inability to obtain that which he lusts is borne of his own cowardice and general fecklessness. He knows it too, yet is utterly helpless about it, and trapped in his own impotency of will, can only but passively observe from the sidelines while stewing in his own personal torment. And what a torment it is, because the depth of human desire, lust, and greed knows no bounds; it is an infinite, dark, howling abyss.

    A tragedy of so-called Asian-American activism is that there are no true iconoclasts. Iconoclasts….meaning idol-shatterers. Agitating for “better representation” in the media is not being an iconoclast. To me that is a fool’s errand. The so-called media is governed purely by the pursuit of profit and cares not a whit about your self-esteem or your image. You complain about the media but how many of you are also mindless consumers of the very same media? Instead of forever begging to be fairly included in a hopelessly flawed system that is beyond redemption why not just reject it altogether? Like those vegans who swear off meat after learning of despicable things that happen in the meat industry. What feeds the mind and spirit is infinitely more significant than what feeds the body.

    In the OT, it is filled with stories and accounts of a vulnerable minority who often found themselves struggling to survive as a people with a distinct identity in strange, alien cultures. What made them distinct was their faith in God. What made characters like Joseph, Esther, and Daniel great is that they rejected certain elements of the surrounding culture that would compromise their faith and identity as a people. They refused to bow down to idols.

    The greatest tragedy of Asian-Americans as a people living in the American empire is that we assimilate way too easily to American culture, whether good or bad, without much critical reflection. We bow down to the idols too readily. The Model Minority status is the Asian-American spin on the so-called American Dream, which is really a nice way of saying “worship of money and materialism”. America is a place where everyone comes to make money and screw family, community, and everyone else for that matter.

    Consider all the questions we ask ourselves constantly in this blog? Why does Asian-American lit (and other works of art) consistently suck? Why does Asian-American representation in the media suck? Why are Asian-Americans invisible? Why do we seem forever divided and lack a sense of community, even more so than other people?

    It is because we pursued and worshipped at the idol of materialistic success in our special, one-dimensional, fucked-up, extremist Asian ways for so long and so much that everything else worthwhile died of neglect. We often dehumanize ourselves in real life.

  305. “When I see an AM with a non-Asian woman who also happens to be very attractive that AM tends to appear very athletic. Tall, broad-shouldered, muscular, lean, etc. This leads me to believe that very attractive non-Asian women are not discriminating against Asian guys because they are Asian per say, but ARE discriminating in favor of a certain body type; it just might appear that they are discriminating against AM since Asian men tend to be smaller”.

    Why can’t Asian guys just STFU and admit that AMs in general are physically non appealing to attractive non-Asian women? We are always talking about the media not being fair to them, and thus many are using it as a scapegoat for their dating woes.

  306. “Why can’t Asian guys just STFU and admit that AMs in general are physically non appealing to attractive non-Asian women? We are always talking about the media not being fair to them, and thus many are using it as a scapegoat for their dating woes.”

    Because it isn’t true and your problem is that you internalize your own self hatred like a dumbass.

    Women aren’t mysterious weird creatures. Like any other person they respond to a wide gamut of bodytypes and in general tend to be less visually oriented than men anyway (to much relief of men). Do you not realize that Americans are fat as fuck and if only guys with six pack abs could get laid almost nobody in this dumb country would getting it on?

    Another reason why Fun is a dumb assburger is because he literally never actually went outside of his house. I don’t want to come off as the resident black people expert here (but I am. In your face King!), but I lived in Jackson, Mississippi all my life which in case you don’t realize is black as all get out. When I read Fun’s black guys “fit the bill for tall and athletic” I sprayed purple drank all over my keyboard in derisive laughter.

    Look:
    American’s are fat.
    In America poverty and obesity go hand in hand.
    Black folks are placed in economically dire straits and so have a lot of fat dudes.
    Mississippi is the fattest fucking state in the country at like 40 percent obesity.
    Mississippi is one of the poorest states in the country.
    Black folks in Mississppi are like peak fat ass. Bless their (clogged) hearts.

    Yet people in MS still fuck each other. We just take more snack breaks between orgasms.

    The last time I saw a black guy that actually fit Fun’s sweaty fantasy was like 6 months ago at the gym and the guy was a 38 years old gay Uncle Ruckus that loudly proclaimed that black guys were ugly and that he only went with white men. Conversely, tons of Asian guys I know fill the bill for tall and athletic. The Korean Christian community here is always getting their kids involved with sports and exercise. You need money, free time, and a good diet to be in shape. Poor people who have to work all the time and subsist on fried Clown hamburgers aren’t going to have the doucher club bods.

    You can’t underestimate the power of media. Media determines what is and isn’t acceptable in society. These social pressures are tremendous. Sex blogger, Blasian Bytch, fairly recently in a series of interviews with racialcious talked about how she was constantly harassed for dating Asian guys by white dudes including one of her professors. Women who date Asian men tend to be strong willed and take no shit. Others are plenty interested but won’t act out of social pressure. This is changing as the new media format of the internet can be influenced by regular people and not old guards with racist agendas.

  307. No offence guys but there is a lot of anger here.

    Really good points that I find really helpful but obscured by the anger.

    You guys are really clever (clever Asian stereotypes hehe?) but wow. Are you this angry in real life? Sheesh you’d scare the crap out of me!

    Shouldn’t we be more supportive of each other?

  308. Black men who flaunt their female are total douchebags as much as asian men who do the same. Quitely frankly there are way too many of you morons, who may sound very articulate, but are quite frankly just a bunch of whinging imbeciles.
    Put yourselves in the shoes of hot white women………..a tidal of wave of asian men (and ugly too) are trying to come after them. A few may see an opportunity to make money but others will just run and hide. I would love to date a hot white female who has a preference for asian men but there simply is none at the moment. Gold diggers are not counted and in fact I just want to slap these bitches and round house kick these rich asian fobs in the face.

  309. Oh White woman, dear white woman, where forth art thou, white woman…?
    Manifest thyself to me and bask in the love and adoration that i, the minority male, hast for thee….

  310. @ Jerry

    Exactly. I can’t imagine what may be scarier to a woman than a group of guys, coming at you. I believe that’s the reason you don’t see many of these students of bootcamps have much of a success rate. I know when I used to go out regularly, I never wanted to go out with more than one other person. If there’s more than one, it gets weird and you’re competing with all of the guys you’re with.

    I think it’s kind of gross to date an white woman who prefers only Asian men. I’d rather date someone who likes me for my personality and looks not just cause I’m Asian. That’s just creepy to me.

    And btw, there are hot white women out there who will date Asian men. The key is asking. Not saying all of them will say yes but depending on how you look, personality, etc, some will.

  311. @ FatCatAttack

    Well said. And I’ll add this. The moment Chr can believe that AMs can obtain attractive females of other races, he would have to take some accountability on himself on why he can’t date women of other races. It’s easy to blame racism for why you’re not getting any dates. Lot harder to blame yourself. “Misery loves company.” To him, if Chr can’t find dates then most other AMs can’t find dates either. I gain nothing and could care less who Chr dates but get annoyed when he wants to group most AMs with him. I find it kind of unusual Chr seems a lot more worried about women of other races dating AMs than AFs dating AMs. Well I guess you do find all kinds out here in blogland.

  312. My son is only 13. He dates popular White girls in his school.

    I don’t think it is that hard for AMs to get White women or women of any color. But Asian upbringing probably do make a lot of AMs lack something that make them difficult to attract women.

  313. My son told me that one of his Black friend asked a lot of girls(all White girls) out so far this year, none of them said “yes”. My son thinks that being a Black is the main reason that he got rejected. Even the ugly girl rejected him.

  314. @ Ste, I think that sociability, eye contact, smile and saying “hi” are solid grounds to start on and something that I noticed many guys cannot even do yet, but there are other factors determining how popular or attractive a man is to women.

    Social status and influence and wealth for example, is possibly just as important as looks as physicality and personality. I think we’ve both gone out and tried to pull women solo enough to know that it works well in some situations but in others, not so much. One thing I have noticed yuppies doing is putting a lot of time, effort and concentration into after hours activities and parties because like it or not, that’s what a lot of women go for. In addition their perceived status within such circles and activities more or less decides the pecking order. There’s a huge difference between going in like you’re the king versus just being a tag-along.

    I had a pretty good run recently. Nothing like some holiday romance and sex to spice up a vacation, lol. But if I had spent all my time in my head wondering if I stood a chance or not or whether a girl likes me more than another guy then I would never have been proactive enough to actively engage them, gauge their interest and escalate on those that bit the bait.

    I would rather figure out which woman hungers for sex than spend any more time wondering why AM can’t get any ROFL

  315. @ Rag

    I was going to ask you for your comments. I couldn’t understand some of the posts above because I am thick.

    One thing I fear that people here lack is a sense of humour. Nobody cracks any jokes or takes the piss out of themselves. Is it like an American/oriental/ educated thing? Sometimes you need to have a laugh. In real life, I am a bit of a comedian.

    Also, does anyone have a dog?

  316. I don’t know, man. I think some of the commenters here need to take a nice holiday too. LOL

  317. “I find it kind of unusual Chr seems a lot more worried about women of other races dating AMs than AFs dating AMs. Well I guess you do find all kinds out here in blogland”.

    Isn’t this damn site about the IR disparity for the most part? Noooo..of course not, only a delusional idiot like you think AMs in general are doing fine in the dating game. And yes, AFs who don’t date other men, but only AMs should be our main focus, that is, AMs aren’t peeved by the fact that many AFs are IR dating in large numbers.

  318. “The greatest tragedy of Asian-Americans as a people living in the American empire is that we assimilate way too easily to American culture, whether good or bad, without much critical reflection…The Model Minority status is the Asian-American spin on the so-called American Dream, which is really a nice way of saying “worship of money and materialism”. America is a place where everyone comes to make money and screw family, community, and everyone else for that matter”.

    I don’t see South Asians (those Indian types) and successful Middle Easterners having this problem.

  319. “The greatest tragedy of Asian-Americans as a people living in the American empire is that we assimilate way too easily to American culture, whether good or bad, without much critical reflection. We bow down to the idols too readily. The Model Minority status is the Asian-American spin on the so-called American Dream, which is really a nice way of saying “worship of money and materialism”. ”

    I have been thinking about how should I help my kids to form their racial identity for quite a while. I have to exam the questions like “who are we”, “what is our strength and what is our weakness”. You know what? My answer is to “assimilate” and go to the extreme.

    As a Chinese, we don’t have a religion that hold us together and made us unique. The values of Confucianism(not quite the same thing as Confucius teaching) that had been governing Chinese society for the past thousand years are obsolete. Those values are suppressive and made us really weak as an individual. That is why we have this “New Culture movement” in China about a century ago. The problem is the “New Culture movement” only make people realize that the old way is bad, we should get rid of it, but they did not tell us what the new way should be. And still, the old way is really hard to completely get rid of and it still have some effects on today’s Chinese. That’s why Mao had “Culture Revolution” almost 50 years ago.

    Mao wanted people, specially young people, to be strong, to be brave, to dare to challenge and stand up to authority and anything that they don’t like, to dare to think and dare to do, not to be inhibited by laws(either a human law or a natural law), take risks. He call for young educated people to get out of their ivory tower, to care for the community and the country, to go to countrysides and factories, to be able to relate to working people(which was about 90% of the population at time), to learn from life instead of books…… Sounds familiar, huh? This is Mao’s way, he had been like this all his life. This is why he was such a strong man, almost always right and always won. This is the winner’s way. Too bad that we Chinese still does not realize this, demonized Mao and the Culture revolution.

    Not long after I came to the US, I realized that a lot of American ways are almost exactly what Mao had advocated for during the Culture revolution. The only difference is that America has a whole inf0structure to implement that and China doesn’t. That is why the Culture revolution only results in chaos and destruction.

    So, this is the way, the values I’m going to teach my kids—the Mao’s way(you may call it American way too). I hate the old Chinese way myself, why should I teach my kids that.

    “Consider all the questions we ask ourselves constantly in this blog? Why does Asian-American lit (and other works of art) consistently suck? Why does Asian-American representation in the media suck? Why are Asian-Americans invisible? Why do we seem forever divided and lack a sense of community, even more so than other people?”

    When we don’t have a good value system, when we weak and coward, never really experienced and understand life, how could we write something that truly great?

  320. And I will also teach my kids not to blindly accept or worship any thing, either Asian or White; not to be afraid of reject anything Asian that they don’t like. They don’t have to love and be proud of Asian culture and pressured to be part of it, but they have to understand Asian culture and Asian people, tolerate the bad and ugly part of that, be kind to Asians and Asian Americans, always have Asian’s interest in mind and fully accept this part of themselves.

    They should not be afraid of define themselves anyway they like, no matter what other people tell them not to do so.

  321. Just make sure he has the sense not to join the armed forces. That’s a big thing now. I heard that Uncle Sam wants more gooks to help him shoot slit-eyed chinks in the face, and also to help prostitute the women for the white man’s pleasure.

  322. @ Chr This isn’t a site about IR disparity. It’s just you keep chiming in about it cause obviously it eats at your gut.

    All you can think about is getting with them white women. That’s not a healthy way to live life. There’s a ton of other things too.

    If I’m dating women I want to date. How does that make me delusional?

    We’ve seen Asian American athletes marry WFs. Is it only cause they are rich? Then again, you make an excuse saying, if there was an Asian Mark Sanchez, he wouldn’t be getting with pretty WFs.

    I’ve proven time and time again refuting your lame claims yet you continue to put down AMs.

    I’m not saying any guy can get any girl they want but I think all races have their weirdos who can’t get anywhere with women but as far as this board goes, we see the complainers blaming it on their race.

    I don’t know where it says that Indians and Middle Easterners do better than Eastern Asians. I’ve read studies too that say Middle Easterners have it the worst cause of the stereotype of being enemies with the US.

    There is no one else on this blog who thinks like, you are what they call the typical self defeated person. Go ahead and stick your head in the sand No one is feeling sorry for you.

  323. When I looked into the ways the americans raise their children, and compare that to Chinese ways, I realized that they are raising wolves and we are raising sheep.

    American society is full of wolves, the top wolves are worshiped. Sheep either is ignored or gets eaten. That’s why America and Western country have to have this democratic system for wolves to negotiate with each other in a civilized way. And this system is only works well in this kind of society. In Chinese society, we iconized sheep and inhibit ourselves, we are full of sheep. This results that a few wolves can easily get their way, and most people are at mercy of them. That’s why we always have the authoritarian government, even when we had so called “democracy” (China had had democracy once, Chiang kai-shek made himself elected and dictated China, democracy failed China).

    In American society, when Asian immigrants raise their kids the old ways, we are raising a bunch of sheep. That why AMs got all these problems. You “model minority” sheep are at mercy of wolves in the wolves world.

    So, for AMs to solve your problems, I think the only way is to take responsibility for yourselves, make yourself and your kind strong. Not to blame or hate others like AFs or the society in general. Anger and hatred only make a person weak and lost directions.

    To be strong, to the young AMs out there still struggling, my advice is to take the first step to free yourself from everything that hold you down, including your family expectation and your culture. Asian culture sucks. Asian people in Asia don’t like Asian culture, that’s why there are so many Asians blindly worship Whites and everything about them. AMs in this country really don’t have to bond yourselves by the backward Asian culture, you are free to define yourself in your own way. You don’t have to like anything about Asian culture, but you have to understand it. Otherwise you won’t be able to accept yourself and have the inner peace. When you don’t have inner peace, you are weak.

    I don’t think those Asian study courses in college can help people understand Asians at all, at least can not help to understand China and Chinese. To anyone who wants to understand China and Chinese, I suggest you to read books written by Lu Xun, who is one of the major Chinese writers in early 20th century, one of the “new culture movement” leader, mostly respected by Chinese intellectuals of his time(still is today). If you think Amy Tan and bunch of other AF writers emasculated AMs, then read Lu Xun’s The True Story of Ah Q (A Q Zhengzhuan, 阿Q正傳). The emasculated male figures in those AF’s novels will be nothing compare to Ah Q. And Ah Q is a household name in China now, anybody got middle school education will know what that means. Many figures in Lu Xun’s various short story was considered accurately depicted Chinese of his time. Those books will help you understand what China and Chinese people like sixty years ago (and we are still like that in a lots of ways).

    I also suggest people to read books about Mao and by Mao. Mao is not only intelligent and talented in many many areas, he understood China and Chinese people better than anybody else of his time. That’s why he was able to lead his small gorilla army from poor and rural western town Yan AN beat American supported and armed Chiang kai-shek’s 8 million army. Mao admire Lun Xun the most. Because of that, Lu
    was held an unusual high status in Mao’s China. Only in recent 20 years, other “new culture movement” leaders and writer got their much deserved recognition.

    here is the wike entry of Lu Xun:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu_Xun

  324. The following is a paragragh about Lu Xun from Wiki.

    If you think Amy Tan and others emasculated AMs, think again. Then you can understand what traditional Chinese culture had done to Chinese and be able to appreciate Mao and how he change everything about China. Chinese people under Mao’s leadership was strong and courageous. Chinese army dared to confront United nation’s army in Korea and stopped their aggression in 1950’s Korea war, at a time when the new China just established in 1949, when Chiang kai-shek’ government took everything (not only money, but also machines) with them to Taiwan and destroy everything else left, when China couldn’t even make a nail by ourselves.
    ————–

    “Lu Xun, in his well-known Preface to Nahan (Call to Arms), the first collection of his short stories, tells the story of why he gave up completing his medical education at Sendai. One day after class, one of his Japanese instructors screened a lantern slide documenting the imminent execution of an alleged Chinese spy during the Russo-Japanese War (1904–05). Lu Xun was shocked by the complete apathy of the Chinese onlookers; he decided it was more important to cure his compatriots’ spiritual ills rather than their physical diseases.
    “At the time, I hadn’t seen any of my fellow Chinese in a long time, but one day some of them showed up in a slide. One, with his hands tied behind him, was in the middle of the picture; the others were gathered around him. Physically, they were as strong and healthy as anyone could ask, but their expressions revealed all too clearly that spiritually they were calloused and numb. According to the caption, the Chinese whose hands were bound had been spying on the Japanese military for the Russians. He was about to be decapitated as a ‘public example.’ The other Chinese gathered around him had come to enjoy the spectacle.” (Lyell , pp 23).”

  325. An interesting discussion! ChineseMom- since you’re so well-versed in Asian history and cultures, could you please go into more detail about its negative effects on Asian women? AF seem to have this reputation as sellouts, and it’s reinforced by the mass migration of AF from the inferior Asian cultures to the superior white western cultures. What is it about Asian culture that creates such self-loathing and disloyalty in its women? What part of it creates so many Amy Tans and Maxine Hong Kingstons? It seems like AF are afflicted with a greater sense of opportunism while AM still seem to still seem to retain some form of obligation. Or is that simply due to the easy access of AF into white mainstream combined with the lack of similar agency for AM?

    I’m just asking because as an Asian male, I’m quite aware of my own shortcomings. But, it’ll be great for this rare opportunity for an Asian female to admit her own and reveal the root causes so we can perhaps help each other? After all, a weak culture creates weak women as well as men. It wouldn’t make sense for a culture to affect only half its population and not the other. On that note, Asian women must also contribute to the decline of these cultures. I’d like to know more about these women so perhaps we can address that as well.

  326. Not Chinesemom, but I think she has stated before that AF AND AM are afflicted by negative malcontents that are derived from external forces. If I remember correctly, she mentioned several times that even the AF at her kid’s school are fairly low on the social hierarchy.

    On another note, I wonder if CHR are those AMs whose end all be all interest in Asian Am issues start and end with getting poon. I had one friend back in college who was kinda liked this. The moment he ended up with a GF (who he ended up marrying oddly enough), every interest he once had in Asian Am studies died out.

  327. Rayinseattle- fair enough, although I’ve seen enough talks about AM’s shortcomings and what they should do. I just thought it’d be great for someone who’s AF to address the same issues with AF, because if I were to bring it up then I’d just be written off as misogynist.

  328. @Hadoken,

    To answer you question, I have to explain more about Chinese culture and what we need. So, please be patient.

    @rayinseattle,

    If my memory serve me right, it was you once asked me why did I feel that I had more in common with Americans than with many Taiwan and Hong Kong Chinese when I first came to this country, right? I didn’t answer you at the time because I felt that there are too much to write and I wasn’t in the mood.

    Now that if you read what I wrote about Mao and what he did to China, you probably can understand his influence on my generation and generations before me, and take into account that women in Mao’s China were truly feel that we were equal to men, until this newly introduced capitalism changed everything. Nowadays, women in China don’t feel as equal to men as we used to be, but still we are pretty powerful.

  329. @ Chinesemom

    Thanks for your detailed comments. Certainly food for thought and research.

    Mao is certainly constantly and still demonised in the UK in the media.I don’t know enough history to agree or disagree with these analyses. But the English never discuss the milieu in which Mao grew into power and in particular how the Western powers raped China and carved it up like a melon prior to Mao. Thank goodness for Sun Yat Sen and his nationalistic vision. Without these two Chinese strongmen, China would be a giant cow, milked by the West.

    The Chinese would be disrespected even more as a race.

  330. I find it surprising that Mao is being lionized on an Asian American blog. To a lot of mainland Chinese, he’s considered to be a charismatic leader with disastrous domestic policies. There’s a reason why most of Chinese leaders today are smart nerds with engineering degrees and no social skills. Yet this crop of Chinese leaders are the ones who will turn the country into a superpower, not Mao and his Cultural Revolution.

    Which is why I don’t completely agree with the whole Asian cultures suck theory. Sure, there are some shortcomings, but the Chinese are practical if nothing else. There’s a reason why their economy is kicking ass. I dare anyone to try to do business there while thinking the people are “sheep”. Plus China’s the only Asian country right now that doesn’t hesitate to give the U.S. the middle finger. Hardly the pushovers like we’re making them out to be.

    I think maybe something changes to the Asians who immigrate here? Or perhaps we’re all just buying into the submissive Asian stereotype a little too much thanks to our constant exposure to white social media? Asians are not new to this country. Hell, we helped build it. Any lack of integration on our part isn’t due to our lack of trying. Ask Black Americans. They’ve been here for longer than we have. How’s that assimilation going for them?

    I think there are only two main roadblocks to whatever we want in life. Racism, plain and simple. And ourselves. We can’t control the former, but we can control the latter. However, believing that Asians suck (or our cultures suck, or we’re ugly, whatever) is just internalizing the former, and if you do that you won’t ever be able to grow and accept yourself, no matter how much you try to integrate.

  331. Inter-racial dating is a smokescreen that only the most damaged and pathetic Asian men harp about, and the proof is in how they do it for years with no progress, no personal epiphanies, and no change in their tune.

    Anti-Asian racism cannot and should not be separated from the context of the vigorous games of power, domination and empire the west played and is playing with the Far East.

    When you look at it from the broader view you will understand that these acts and symptoms of racism have a goal and purpose. They are instituted and made acceptable in order to limit the political power and social influence of Asian individuals and as a group and to keep them subordinate to white interests, with nearly no ability to look out for their own. Look at what happened to the Japanese and the wave of anti-Japanese attacks on their culture and people in the 80s and notice how it occurred despite Japan being a staunch ally of the United States.

  332. @Hadoken,

    You raised many legitimate questions.

    I think that you would agree with me the core or the backbone of a culture is its believes and value system.

    If you look at last 1000+ years Chinese history, we don’t really have a religion, we put our loyalty, faith, worship and believes in the emperors. The main value system that governing the relationship between people was Confucianism. At the beginning of 20 century, under the brutal rule of Qing dynasty, the suppressive Confucianism, and the humiliation of the West, Chinese people were calloused and numb spiritually as Lu Xun said in his Preface to Nahan (Call to Arms). You really have to understand what China was like at beginning of the last century to be able to realize how much China has progressed in such short 100 years, to be proud of ourselves, and to appreciate what Mao and his communist party had done to China, even with their many mistakes. If you don’t understand, then think about medieval Europe. 100 years ago, Chinese society and civilization was probably comparable to early Renaissance era in Europe in many ways.

    When our old believes and value system, the backbone of our culture, collapsed and became obsolete, this culture is literally dead, don’t you think so? Think about it, what Asian values or Asian ways your parents taught you that you will pass on to your children? Almost nothing, except work ethic and maybe resilience, right? We have to find new value system and reinvent ourselves. Europeans have been doing this since Renaissance, why can’t we?

    China has been trying to find new value system and to reinvent herself in past 100 year. At least we believe in science now, many people fancy about so called “democracy”, “freedom” and “human rights”, etc., but I don’t think most Chinese people understand what these word really means.

    China is still weak now exactly because we don’t have a strong value system. We got more money in our pockets now, but spiritually we are at lost, we are still search in the wilderness.

    To answer your questions about AFs, I have to analysis more about our value system or lack of that. Before doing that, I want to make myself clear that my purpose is not for you to believe that Asians suck and to hate yourself, but to make people understand that Asian culture is our weakness. Knowing yourself, knowing your strength and weakness can only make your grow and be strong. If you can accept that you are not the most beautiful or smartest person on earth, you don’t have the greatest parents in the world, etc., why can’t you accept your culture is not the best one on earth? Chinese people in China have no problem with this, we have realized that we are suck in many areas (including our culture) for the past 100 years, and accepted ourselves. We change, we grow, we become much stronger now.

    Accepting our culture weakness doesn’t mean that we don’t fight Racism in this country. We have to fight in two frontlines. I believe that changing ourselves is a lot harder but much more meaningful than just fight racism. In the end, we have to be truly strong for us to be proud of ourselves, and for others to respect us.

  333. Culture cannot be separated from the political systems that people are subject to. We see this especially when we notice that the major religions and philosophies most prominent today are the ones that had historical state sponsorship and protection under the most militarily aggressive and genocidal regimes. Culture does not arise by itself. People create culture. We are the ones who maintain it and evolve it.

    We are also the ones who conform to the conditions imposed upon us.

    When you have a situation where people only follow and believe what they are told, then culture simply stagnates or is dictated from the top down because innovation and direction has been taken away from the hands of the common people.

    What makes you believe that by abandoning Chinese culture, history and traditions on the basis of mere personal preference will lead to any advantage, when conditions today indicate only that top-down control has become more sophisticated globally and is becoming even more so?

    The time is actually right for a new Asian cultural and political renaissance, but realistically I doubt if that could ever happen because the majority of Asian people I know do not see the big picture, and do not want to do so. They are led around by the nose by a million interested parties. Their understanding of the corridors of power, international politics and the use of influence and (sadly) military force is limited and stunted due to a lack of education and exposure. They do not see or want to understand how the question of these matters influence their lives, communities and their very future. They want to remain within the spheres of what they are comfortable doing which is a day to day living which is becoming more banal, more meaningless and separated from the past and future with every moment. On the other hand their childhood education will consist of learning how to be cool, and what other people like, want, do and expect, and also instant gratification, notions and delusions of grandeur fed by five minutes of fame.

    Now contrast this with how the elite anglo-european families are brought up.

    Asian people globally will slip further and further into the arms of total technocratic control. They cannot and do not want to see the big picture and so every aspect of their lives, every opportunity and limitation will be imposed upon them. They will be given the illusion of free will in embracing the choices already pre-decided for them.

  334. Chinesemom- you misunderstand me. I did not claim that Asian cultures are flawless. Indeed, there are many things we can improve. However, as Raguel explained, the “superiority” of a culture over another is hardly a simple matter. There are many factors involved. For one, the dominance of US culture has to do with the fact that the US carries the biggest stick and knows how to use it.

    Mao said, “Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.” The same can be said of “democracy”, “freedom” and “human rights”, given how their proponents rarely ever acted out of anything but self interest. Often, these fine ideals are used as nothing but cover for selfish agendas. Remember, it’s not about world peace; it’s Pax Americana.

    My point is, don’t be so quick to discount your own culture because it does not currently dominate the world. Like Raguel, I would much rather see countries like China and India come into their own, even though they will no doubt stumble in the process. It’s good to learn from the powerful, but trying to imitate too hard and you’re simply submitting yourself into their worldview. You’ll be exchanging one yolk for another.

    As for Mao, I believe during his time, he was needed. China needed a man like him, but that does not mean he’s needed now. Mao lifted China out of the darkness of a backward and dysfunctional system, but it was Deng Xiaoping who brought the country from Mao’s revolutionary turmoil into the modern world. Learn from the past, but trying to bring it back is folly.

  335. I need to read up on Lu Xun. Thanks for the info, Chinese Mom.

    Raguel:

    The time is actually right for a new Asian cultural and political renaissance, but realistically I doubt if that could ever happen because the majority of Asian people I know do not see the big picture, and do not want to do so.

    In this way, maybe the whole AFCC phenomenon might demonstrate the vital need for a cultural and political renaissance, even for people not involved in culture and politics. Maybe?

  336. bigWOWO- I don’t think that’s possible for Asian Americans to achieve. There’s no unity or catalyst for any type of renaissance. For one thing, in the west, all Asian communities are (mis)cast as a single Asian entity when in reality there’s no such unity. We come from many distinct cultures and most Asian American individual identifies with his/her own culture first, Asian American second.

    Also, there’s no growth of unique Asian American cultures. We assimilate into the white mainstream too willingly, thus we seek to leave our community, not build it. Half of us don’t even marry each other. Any growth we have comes from immigrants, who are again more attached to their old countries and cultures.

    Any progress we make as Asian Americans are part of the assimilation process. We create for white consumption and nothing gets done without their approval, or seeking their approval. That is why whatever unique parts of Asian cultures that actually gain ground are imports from S. Korea and Japan.

    I’m afraid changes will have to come from Asians overseas, when countries like India and China achieve their rise and carve their place in the world that’s currently dominated by the west.

  337. @rayinseattle I wouldn’t doubt Chr is one of those guys who once he finds a girl, he’ll disappear from this blog. But he does limit himself if all he’s searching for are white girls. Yes, finding women is an important part of being a male, but it isn’t the only thing that should be on your mind. That’s the problem I have with PUA. They try to tell you what you should think is important in your life instead of helping you find out what is.
    Is it possible to live a happy and fulfilled life without a mate? Who is anyone to say that’s an impossibility? I’ve noticed it is the people who don’t worry about women much who get the most.

  338. @ Byron, I would hope so actually.

    You see there is this misconception that Asian America has nothing in common with itself because it doesn’t share the same history, experiences and backgrounds.

    But this is a superficial analysis, it is an EXCUSE, and it is meant to rationalise a learned helplessness that has been conditioned into people from youth. Even though Asian Americans come from diverse backgrounds and cultures they share a lot of experiences in common.

    Racism against Asians in America does not discriminate between rich or poor nor does it recognise the various ethnic groups. Long Duk Dong, Vincent China and breakfast at tiffany’s made no distinction, so why do Asian Americans do so?

    Learned helplessness, and an erosion of culture and history in order that you worship at the altar of “assimilation”. Assimilation though, is a moronic idea and the people who preach it usually have a dog in the fight for preserving the dominant order.

  339. I agree, Raguel. Just look at this site. We’ve got people from all different Asiatic ethnicities who comment. There must be some kid of commonality, otherwise people wouldn’t be here.

  340. Raguel- Yes, there is much erosion of our culture and history in the US. I was wrong to say that Asian Americans have nothing in common. But many are ignorant of the history and either ashamed or care little for their heritage. Many are quick and eager to assimilate into the dominant order. Many have internalized the racism that should unite us but instead they use against their own. There are some of them on this blog or have been in the past.

    Our mainstream art are created to fit into popular stereotypes; they celebrate our integration with white American, instead of with each other. I am guilty of some of this learned helplessness myself. Perhaps we can reverse this trend if we can teach ourselves and our children about our unique Asian American heritage. But unless we place the highest value in our culture and history, we cannot start a renaissance.

  341. @ Chinesemom;Raguel and Hadoken

    Thank you for your informative posts. They are thoughtful and I feel like I am learning something. That’s why I am here, not to be insulted or quoted out of context, but to learn.

    Thanks again.

    @Hadoken

    I was particularly interested in your saying this:

    “Which is why I don’t completely agree with the whole Asian cultures suck theory. ”

    In the UK, all we get from the BBC is attacks on China’s human rights records (or lack thereof). Whenever the Chinese government is shown to be doing anything in the international sphere there is ALWAYS a final sentence or two that hints at an underlying hidden motive or deception. (Not that the UK or USA engage in this type of activity of course). It’s constant and actually quite biased and annoying.

    Further, China’s economic prowess is seen as an almost inevitable result of economic forces as opposed to Chinese ingenuity. Without the questionable practice of robbing and colonising territories several continents away, the Chinese have within 63 years, become a huge economic player. There have to be sociological reasons for this. The way that Chinese work together (He (rising tone) zo (falling tone) sorry don’t know how to type the tones) offers the West a massive lesson. Anglo Saxon individualism is not enough to halt the total degradation of the UK (fellahs – I have seen stuff here even in my job that defies belief) and they would do well to learn off the Chinese.

    Although my feeling is that they don’t like to admit it, the leap forward of Singapore is also due to Chinese ethics. I was surprised, in recent meetings with Singaporeans, how they denigrate the land of their ancestors and language.

    Whilst the Westerner laughs at the size of the Chinese penis and congratulates itself on the length of his own, the Chinese children of peasants will be quietly making his pajamas, his rubber johnny, his bed and will be lending him even more money.

  342. One of the biggest lies minority kids have been told is that their culture is as good and equal as other culture, just different. I believe people who read and comment on this blog are all adults, so I’ll be straight and get to the bottom of this.

    When I was in China, and even about 10 years ago(not sure now), I often saw from newspaper or heard from people and government high official say that Western culture is more advanced and better, we need to learn from their “advanced” culture. (To be honest, most people in China, including many high government officials don’t know what the word “culture” really means, I was like that many years ago. If you don’t believe me, ask your parents. )

    You like it or not, developed countries, their civilizations are more advanced. The cultures that produced such civilizations of course are more “advanced”, “better” or “superior” in many ways. But admitting other people’s culture strength doesn’t means that I have to kneel down in front of them and worship them, it just help me have the right perspective of where I am.

    Chinese civilization and culture were “superior” to barbaric Mongolian and Manchu, because of that, even though they conquered us and ruled us, the end results were that their land became ours, they were assimilated into us. Manchu’s culture(including their language ) are almost completely disappeared. Mongolian’s culture didn’t disappear, but they are just an ethnic minority now, without any influence in China. (I did’t say this with any pride in me. Our culture made us so weak and coward that we let barbarian conquered us and ruled us so easily, not once but twice).

    Chinese civilization and culture were also “superior” to south east Asian countries. That’s why you don’t see Chinese immigrants there assimilate into local cultures, they keep their Chinese culture even after they migrated there over one hundred years.

    But we don’t have this “superiority” to Western culture, we are not even equal, we are actually “inferior”. So in Western country, we are either assimilated or marginalized. And because the backbone of our culture collapsed, we don’t have a strong value system or a religion that hold us together, “we assimilate way too easily to American culture, whether good or bad, without much critical reflection. We bow down to the idols too readily” — like what kobukson said. We take up Western religion, get English names for our kids or even ourselves, out marry, change our citizenship….. all way too easily. We don’t have an identity, and we don’t have a sense of ourselves. Our culture did not teach us how to think critically, so even we assimilate, we only get the shallow part of American culture. “The Model Minority status is the Asian-American spin on the so-called American Dream, which is really a nice way of saying “worship of money and materialism”.

  343. The most harmful lie that minority children have ever been told is by their own families and the people they trust, where they are lead to believe that there is something wrong with their own people, their own beliefs, their own cultures, their own genes, by the simple but weaselly analysis of what they already have and don’t have.

    It is a tactic that victors impose upon the vanquished because such a tactic can only be used against the truly defeated and the truly alone. For example, I SEVER YOUR PENIS and then I wave it in front of your eyes. Then I tell you that you are not a man. You are not a man because you are a eunuch, and you are also not a man because you could not stop your penis from being cut off by an attacker. Now the focus is not on what the attacker did, nor the crime that has been committed on you. The focus is on you and your supposed virtues and values. Moreover, what will you do about it now that it has happened and you are a eunuch? Nobody wants to hear it.

    You know what pisses me off about fucking Chinese people? It’s the fact that they love to adopt this sort of predatory reasoning and use it on themselves and other Chinese.

    They don’t understand war, they don’t understand politics, they don’t know history, they don’t know so much about how the world is the way it is, the only thing they can do is continue clinging unto values and beliefs but sooner or later those beliefs and values have to give also, then they latch on to self-loathing in order to rationalise the punishment they must supposedly be receiving from some angry god. Eventually they will turn this hate and loathing on fellow Chinese and maybe even their own families and friends.

    Supposedly, someone here feels shame because China was conquered by barbarians twice (it was actually more than twice). But do they know how the barbarians conquered China? Do they know the routes taken, the numbers, the force organisation, the intrigues? Did they learn it, because that calamity supposedly bothered them? THEY FUCKING DIDN’T. They have no real clue how it happened, so they never learned anything from it. What did they learn? They learn how to attach moral weakness to themselves.

    The only cultural and moral weakness here is the failure of individuals to up their game.

  344. @Raguel,

    You may think that I’m one of those fucking Chinese who pissed you off. But Mao and Lun Xun, the two greatest Chinese thinkers in lasted century, who deeply influenced Chinese and saved China, are on my side. What do you know about them? What do you know about how the culture and people’s thinking evolved in China in last 100 years, huh?

  345. When Lu Xun criticised chinese culture he criticised very specific aspects of it, as was shown in his story about ah q. He provoked chinese people to challenge the superstition, ossifications and stagnancy in the culture. Did he ever proclaim the entirety of chinese culture as inferior? I believe not, only you and maybe mao has done so. Moreover, what exactly did you learn from the true story of ah q? Did you think that story was a direct satire and criticism of chinese culture? Did you not notice how ah q was a product of an enforced social predation as well as other forces operating far beyond the reach of a mere individual and how an IGNORANT man like him could not even begin to comprehend what he was subjected to, much less fight it? How he was continuously obsssesed with notions of superiority and inferiority and supposed virtues and deservedness and how they brought him absolutely no good? If you got none of those extras, perhaps you may want to re read that story a hundred times until you get it.

    I’ll say it one more time, Asians are failed by their politics. They are ignorant and then they absorb tremendous amounts of guilt and self hate in the quest to somehow be “better”, but they havent actually learned anything. They have just adopted the mindset of the completely defeated because that’s what they are.

  346. Before talking about anything else, I have to say something about confucianism.
    Here is a wiki entry for confucianism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism.
    It’s not complete and may not be accurate, but can give you an rough idea.

    The number one virtue of Confucianism’s five virtues is Ren (仁, Humaneness). To most Chinese, it means being kind and nice to others. Confucius advocated that people in superior positions be 仁 to those in lower positions, like ruler be 仁 to their subject when making decisions and policies…

    The problem with this virtue is the rulers and those in superior position did not really need to be 仁, not body could force them to be 仁 to anyone below them.

    What really got into everybody’s bone and blood is this “Filial piety” (Chinese: 孝; pinyin: xiào) and Loyalty (Chinese: 忠; pinyin: zhōng). No matter how nice and reasonable they sound, it is not a check and balance system. The end results are that we are the properties, slaves and social securities of our parents since the day we were born, and we always have to bow down to anyone superior to us, can not question them, not even our parents.

    Filial piety and Loyalty killed courage and ability to think inside us since we were baby.
    We really could not have a sense of selves and be true to ourselves. People nowadays often blame Communists and Mao not letting Chinese people think and express freely, nobody ever blamed the culture and and realize that Communists and Mao are also the products of the culture.

    What Lu Xun thought of Confucianism? Here is a paragraph from wiki:

    “In May 1918, Lu Xun used this pen name for the first time and published the first major baihua short story, Kuangren Riji (狂人日記, “A Madman’s Diary”). He chose the surname Lu as it was his mother’s maiden family name. Partly inspired by the Gogol short story, it was a scathing criticism of outdated Chinese traditions and feudalism which was metaphorically ‘gnawing’ at the Chinese like cannibalism. It immediately established him as one of the most influential writers of his day”.

    This is what Lun Xun wrote in 狂人日記:
    “我翻开历史一查,这历史没有年代,歪歪斜斜的每页上都写着“仁义道德”几个字。我横竖睡不着,仔细看了半夜,才从字缝里看出字来,满本都写着两个字是“吃人”!”

    Translate in to English is :

    I open the history and check, there is no era in this history, crooked on each page are written the words of “仁” “义”(justice) virtues and morality. I could not sleep no matter what, carefully read till the middle of the night, from the crevices of the word I suddenly understand, the whole book are full of two word “吃人” (cannibalism). Because of this, Lun Xun is famous for his view on Chinese culture as “吃人” culture.

  347. The last couple of paragraphs should be:

    This is what Lun Xun wrote in 狂人日記:
    “我翻开历史一查,这历史没有年代,歪歪斜斜的每页上都写着“仁义道德”几个字。我横竖睡不着,仔细看了半夜,才从字缝里看出字来,满本都写着两个字是“吃人”!”

    Translate in to English is :

    “I open the history and check, there is no era in this history, crooked on each page are written the words of “仁” “义”(justice) virtues and morality. I could not sleep no matter what, carefully read till the middle of the night, from the crevices of the word I suddenly understand, the whole book are full of two word “吃人” (cannibalism). ”

    Because of this, Lun Xun is famous for his view on Chinese culture as “吃人” culture.

  348. So Hadoken, now I can answer your question regarding AFs.

    You see this Confucianism that run in our blood are so structured that make us can not think and question. When we are in that structure, we don’t need to think, just follow the rules. But when we are outside of that structure, we don’t know how to think and what to do, what is right and what is wrong, what is honor and what is shame. ….. Although we value courage and integrity, but they are way down the virtue list and in direct conflict with Filial piety and Loyalty.

    When there is no strong value system, when there is an opportunity, you often see the worst of the people. This is what happened during the culture revolution. Mao didn’t order those killings and beatings, he just miscalculated, he didn’t expect that people will behave this way when all the social structure was destroyed. This is also the reason that you see so much corruptions, cruelty, greed and so many other ugliness in today’s China.

    So, it is should not surprised that when there is an opportunity, AFs will sell, AMs will sell too. The difference is that AMs are in a weaker position, you don’t have that much chance to sell out. See those AMs who do well in this country, most of them either got a very pretty AF as wife or a Caucasian wife.

  349. Looking forward to reading the above posts by Raguel and Chinesemom, but in the meantime thought I would contribute a link to a subject that I just found out about. (Need to go on the weights).

    I read that this young lady was an American. Why don’t they say “Chinese American”.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blVrelSWNjw

  350. Interesting discussion, and I too am looking forward to more.

    Can I play a little devil’s advocate here?

    1. So the whole thing about strong culture vs. assimilating…how do we account for youth culture and black culture today? If you look at youth, hip hop, and music today, almost ALL American youth culture is derived from African American culture, which has strong roots in African music. Sure, white music artists probably outnumber black artists, but if you look at the roots, it’s clear that the African American style has won–you even see the influence in white performers like Adele and Amy Winehouse. Does this mean that black culture is superior?

    2. Let’s look at literature. Alice Munro and Philip Roth are great writers, but the literary field is bankrolled and dominated by pop fiction writers like Stephen King and James Patterson–who often doesn’t even write his own books. Are pop writers more cultured than “serious” writers? And for that matter, when we look at the financial numbers and spread, is rock music more cultured than opera?

    3. How do we account for force? For example, if you look at the English language, many words that concern law and institutions come from French. A lot of it is because William the Conqueror was a French Duke who attacked England, installed himself as King, and imported the French system of governance. Is France more cultured than the Anglophone cultures? French was the lingua franca before English, and even now you can see French’s influence in international affairs, such as in the Olympics where it’s one of the official languages. Of course, it’s the other way now, and France has tried to preserve French against English loan words.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7540588/French-government-picks-new-words-to-replace-English.html

  351. Is there therefore a hierarchy between French and English cultures? If black culture truly is superiori, is it superior in all aspects or just that one? If pop fiction sells more because, as Tocqueville surmised, it’s easier to understand, then does this mean that easy means better?

    By the way, is there a good Lu Xun translation in English?

  352. “I’ll say it one more time, Asians are failed by their politics. They are ignorant and then they absorb tremendous amounts of guilt and self hate in the quest to somehow be “better”, but they havent actually learned anything. They have just adopted the mindset of the completely defeated because that’s what they are.” -Raguel.

    To be fair, I won’t say it’s just the Chinese that are afflicted with this. This is actually the same type of rhetoric neo-con whites who dream of the good ‘ole days often use on treasonous liberal whites and feminist.

    @ ste.

    Funny you mention Singapore as an example. Never in my life have I seen such a vast demographic of self haters even though much of their success as you mentioned happened AFTER the British got the fuck out of there.

  353. @Raguel,

    “The only cultural and moral weakness here is the failure of individuals to up their game.”

    “I’ll say it one more time, Asians are failed by their politics. They are ignorant and then they absorb tremendous amounts of guilt and self hate in the quest to somehow be “better”, but they havent actually learned anything. They have just adopted the mindset of the completely defeated because that’s what they are.””

    Don’t you see, when individuals failed their game in mass numbers, it’s not an individual’s failure anymore, it’s a culture’s failure, it’s the value system’s failure.

    “Asians are failed by their politics”? Who are those politicians? who are the one that making policies and rules, operating, maintaining, checking and balancing their political system? God? No! It’s people, usually the elites of that society. They are the cream of the culture crop.

    So, think deep and ask more questions, don’t be afraid.

  354. One should never ignore the role geopolitics play in shaping the cultures of nations. Lu Xun’s and Mao’s worldviews were probably heavily influenced by China’s Century of Humiliation at the hands of foreign powers. Practically all Asian countries suffered from colonialism at some point, harrowing experiences that leave deep scars in the psyche of their people to this day. I have no doubts that this has contributed to much of the feelings of helplessness and inferiority. Is it the fault of a nation that it gets invaded? Is a culture’s superiority determined by the size of its armies, corporations and media that’s built on slavery and warfare?

  355. BigWowo- you brought up excellent points. There are other minorities in the US that have maintained their cultures and pride, and they do not assimilate as nearly as quickly as Asian Americans. Is this simply the strength of their cultures (in which case, East Asian cultures would rank last compared to Latin, Jewish, Middle Eastern, etc), or perhaps it is because these communities never lost touch with their roots and their history?

  356. @big,

    French, English and Western Europe have been at about the same civilization stage, French don’t want their country to be like Britain and British don’t want their country to be like France. So their cultures are just about equal, just different.

    But in Asia and other third world countries, the civilization at the different stage from the West, people want their country to be like the West, they want almost everything from the West, not vise versa. That’s what this “superior” “inferior” thingy come from.

    Black culture is not superior at all, look at Africa and all other Black countries, they are among the least developed. Does anybody knows any music from those countries? Appreciation of music is very subjective. I think Blacks in this country are the least inhibited people, they are naturally very expressive, their music is very true to their feelings, that’s why they can move people. Still, their music have to be adapted by the Whites in accordination with White values to be popularized, right? Besides, Asian people doesn’t care that much about American pop culture. When I was at my youth in China, I couldn’t appreciate or even tolerate Western music, like disco or classic music. But after I lived in America for a while, I can’t tolerate traditional Chinese music or even current Asian music anymore, I have to go back to China to be able to stand them. So, in that aspect of the culture, I think different cultures are just different, no one is superior or inferior.

    I don’t know where you can find a good Lu Xun translation in English. I’ve heard from Chinese media before that Lu Xun was very influential in Japan and once nominated for Nobel literature award or something like that. So there must be some good English translations of his work.

    Lun Xun was hated by chiang kai-shek’s government, his life was often in danger, so he had to live in Concession (territory) in Shanghai. I think that’s probably one of the reason he wasn’t held at that high status in Taiwan and abroad.

    In China, because Mao admired him, he was held in a unusually high status. Many of his writings was in our Chinese text book. I couldn’t understand his stories and didn’t like it when I was young, even I was very rebellions.

    In wiki entry of Lu Xun, there is a paragraph says that: ” However, starting in 2007 some of his more bleaker works were removed from school textbooks. Julia Lovell, who has translated Lu Xun’s writing suggests, “Perhaps also it was an attempt to discourage the youth of today from Lu Xun’s inconveniently fault-finding habits.””

    I don’t think some of his works removed from school textbook because what Julia Lovell suggested. It was controversial at the time. Many of the scholars who were in charge of this were very anti communists, anti Mao and pro-west, one of them moved to US recently. They removed Lu’s work probably because they thought that Lu should not be held at that high status and should leave more rooms for other writers.

  357. I admit I haven’t read post for post thoroughly but I was rather surprised neither ChineseMom or Raguel made evaluations on the possible effects of money and economics.

    My Chinese isn’t stellar but I do know just enough to read some of the rudimentary level dictions (rest are via Google Translate lol) and most Chinese Netizens through Weibo, 126.com, etc. do tend to be rather nationalistic even if whatever concept they support are amorphous and vague at times.

    This is farrrr from having a “colonized mindset” that so many Asian Am studies major like to arbitrarily throw out. If anything, I believe a lot of the discordance and rift people see in China are more of a class issue than anything else. When you consider a lot of the “rich” in China were herding sheep and riding bicycles just a half generation ago, these difference may be magnified even further.

    It’s really no different than blacks who make it out of the ghetto, going through a “modernized” change and having his community remind him “he forgot where he came from”.

  358. @big,

    I just check up Lu_Xun on wiki again. Under “Works”, there are some links to his short story on wiki. You may just click those links to see what those story about.

    Here is what wiki says about 狂人日记 “A Madman’s Diary” (1918)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Madman%27s_Diary

    This one is for 阿Q正传 “The True Story of Ah Q” (1921)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Story_of_Ah_Q

    It say:
    “Synopsis

    The story traces the “adventures” of Ah Q, a man from the rural peasant class with little education and no definite occupation. Ah Q is famous for “spiritual victories”, Lu Xun’s euphemism for self-talk and self-deception even when faced with extreme defeat or humiliation. Ah Q is a bully to the less fortunate but fearful of those who are above him in rank, strength, or power. He persuades himself mentally that he is spiritually “superior” to his oppressors even as he succumbs to their tyranny and suppression. Lu Xun exposes Ah Q’s extreme faults as symptomatic of the Chinese national character of his time. The ending of the piece – when Ah Q is carted off to execution for a minor crime – is equally poignant and satirical.”

  359. @Hadoken,

    I agree with you that we mainland Chinese after Mao don’t really have that “colonized mindset”. We are very proud people, not really as sheepish as we used to be, and a lot more confident. I clearly felt this difference when I first came to this country and after I met many students from Taiwan and other Asian countries. We just need to learn how to think and figure out a new set of values and codes of conducts for out. Then we’ll be truly strong and no one can stop us.

  360. ChineseMom:

    I’ll check around to see if I can find an English translation. I’ve seen the comic books which are popular, but I’d rather not do that if I don’t have to. :)

    “Black culture is not superior at all, look at Africa and all other Black countries, they are among the least developed. Does anybody knows any music from those countries? Appreciation of music is very subjective. I think Blacks in this country are the least inhibited people, they are naturally very expressive, their music is very true to their feelings, that’s why they can move people. Still, their music have to be adapted by the Whites in accordination with White values to be popularized, right? “

    You’re talking about one thing and one thing alone: Institutions. No one doubts that Euro-American institutions are superior to non-Euro-American institutions. African countries that are poor seem inferior because they don’t have the institution or governance to ensure that their people have enough to eat, and they will seem this way to an outsider regardless of the beauty of music or art they produce. That’s why virtually every country in the world employs a Western style of governance, every musician/creator markets its products using Western style marketing and capitalism, and every group organizes its economics and resources through Western systems. All popular music in the U.S. comes from black people, including hip hop, jazz, and blues, and their music comes from the music they brought from Africa. You and I don’t know of African music because most African countries lack the capitalist infrastructure to promote and market (and maybe even produce) African music, but I’m sure if you heard it, you would recognize the roots of what we have here in the U.S.

    It’s much the same thing with how we view races; it’s the same way commenters on this blog like Fun9876 have been duped into believing in their own inferiority: institutions. Institutions control how information is disseminated, what is disseminated, and how relationships between information and people are governed. Institutions control the distribution.

    So let me make a hypothesis, and let me know what you think: Cultures that have superior institutions will seem superior in all aspects of culture, regardless of whether they’re superior or not. Therefore, related to the convo above, Chinese culture is inferior to Western culture in terms of the strengths of its governmental institutions and systems of organization. It may or may not be superior or inferior in other areas.

  361. Gee, Byron, I can’t believe that you and some other people here are so stucked on the word “superior” and ignore my context, reasoning and my main message. I can drop the word “superior”, and instead use the words like mature, advanced, developed. How is that?

    If you and people here truly believe all cultures are “equal”, all people are equally capable, just some institutions are superior and ignoring the fact that those institutions are actually established and operated by people, then China will continue to be whipped for her “human rights” record, for her lack of “freedom” and “democracy”, etc. for a long long time.

    Think about the difference between you and your son, are you just “superior” to him in body size and equal in all other aspects? No! you came to this word earlier, developed earlier, you learned more, experienced more, so you are more capable. Your son is still young, still growing and developing. But one day he will grow up, be your equal and may be even stronger and more capable than you.

    Western countries are like bunch of 40+ years old men, China are in her early teens, African countries are even younger. That what I mean “superior” and “inferior”.

    China may have a long history, but we came to this “modern” world very late.

  362. @Chinesemom

    If your theory is right, then Spain, Portugal, Italy and Greece shouldn’t be broke, Eastern europe wouldn’t had a high crime rate. I guess Confusius made its way into these countries.

    And Canada should be a world superpower (They got both English AND French influences!).

    China WAS weak because it had been decimated by non-stop civil wars throughout the Song, Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasty and before it can revolutionize like the French, the foreign powers came in. The one consistent thing through out that period of history that stands out is there are ‘sell-out’s in every period, from the corruptions in Song, to the invasion of Qing, to the trading of opium, to the Japanese invasion, to the red guards –

    “Sell-outs” –
    people that are happy to betray the people that trusted them or love ones to the ruling power (local or foreign) for individual gains. And these are often the people that raises in the power ranks and helped fueled the oppressions.

  363. Chinese Mom:

    “Superior” carries a value, so yes, mature, advanced, developed is a much more accurate way of expressing it. Your example about my son illustrates this clearly–my physical strength is obviously “superior” to his, but my body itself isn’t necessarily “superior.” I can lift more than he can, but my body will give in to natural causes before his. He will have the potential to run faster than me in the year 2030 (or around there). So you can’t say that my body is “superior” because you’d only be looking at some of the criteria.

    I don’t believe all cultures are equal. They wouldn’t be different if they were all the same.

    But again, everything we’re discussing here points to institutions. African rhythms were far more complex than Western rhythms, according to musicologists. Indian rhythms were even more so. But the reason why Indians and Africans know more about Western music than the other way around is because the West is rich and controls the distribution channels. Sure, the institutions are run by people, but how we work within institutions is part of the culture as well, and that’s ONE aspect of culture.

    China’s slow rise came about for a number of reasons, mostly because of an institutional disinterest in learning from other people along with institutions that did not empower individuals. The British and French didn’t invent science; science, as they know it, comes from the Greeks. The British and French expanded their empires, learning new things and becoming richer in the process. While these are cultural weaknesses, I think it’s hard to say that this means Chinese culture is less mature in all aspects. Even now, we see prominent White Americans going east to learn yoga, meditation, acupuncture, martial arts, calligraphy, cooking, flower arrangement, Buddhism, etc. If Asian culture were inferior or less mature in these areas, people wouldn’t be studying them–Westerners in general do NOT go to China to learn and incorporate Chinese business or management practices. So I think you’re right about the maturity thing, but only in certain areas.

  364. When I griped together with Ste it was with the specific idea of what I have observed to be unsatisfactory, as well as what could be improved, and could be better. I believe this is important because a certain amount of criticality is required for progress. When I see lives hampered by custom or other things taken for granted, it is unsatisfactory to me. That is why I criticize.

    But on the other hand we must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

  365. @big,

    It seems that I’m still not sensitive enough about race politics in this country and underestimate the power of it holding on people. I can’t believe that a word “superior” will make you and some other people only see the “superior” and forgot everything else I’ve said. So, I’ll dropped it and use something else instead.

    You are not only “mature” in your body strength relative to your son, but also “mature” in your capability of thinking, judging and doing things, etc. … The parts of your whole body that matters — the physical and mental capabilities is “mature” relative to you son NOW. He WANTS to acquire those strength and abilities one day for himself. That why and where this “mature” carries a value NOW. Otherwise, he could care less.

    “China’s slow rise came about for a number of reasons, mostly because of an institutional disinterest in learning from other people along with institutions that did not empower individuals. ”

    I don’t agree with your on this. I also don’t agree with your view on that British and French learn from other people. I think that industrial revolution happened in the West is quite accidental — several factors (Egypt, Greek, Christianity, …) happen to be together make it inevitable to take place.

  366. I was not mistaken, you HAVE absorbed an inferiority complex with regards to Asian culture.

    You also only put apostrophes on those words so that you wouldn’t have to explain how you came to those value judgements and could instead push them through and use them to aid whatever else you wanted to say.

    You think Western culture is “mature”? If it were “mature” then Western civilisation would not be stagnating and regressing at this very instant. Americans would not be worried about their future. They would not powerless in the face of widespread systemic abuse and the repeal of civil liberties. Unelected technocrats would not have taken over the presidencies of certain European states. The UK would not be looking at another decades long bout of recession and social decay that no piggybacking on Uncle Sam’s war machine would solve. There would not be unrelenting war propaganda in a vain bid to expand the petro-dollar and keep relevant the outdated concept on an imperialist religious alliance in the middle east. There would be less whisperings of implementation of a global surveillance network to monitor entire populations instead of just specific persons of interest.

    The prestige and leadership of the western powers is failing faster and harder than its people can stop it. Most importantly they seem almost locked into a sequence of events caused by their own bad decisions. Asians don’t step up to the plate soon and are content only to follow, adapt or assimilate, then there is going to be a lot of important work left unfinished.

  367. @big,

    “China’s slow rise came about for a number of reasons, mostly because of an institutional disinterest in learning from other people along with institutions that did not empower individuals. ”

    For one to be interested to learn from others, he has to see the value in others, to realize that the ways other people doing things are more “mature” than his. Otherwise, what the points?

    In past 150+ years, China were forced to see that the Wests are more “mature” than us and acknowledge their “maturity”. This may make many of the weaker ones among us lost self confidence and self respect, but also make the stronger ones to think, to exam our weakness and find ways to improve ourselves. This is exactly what we have been doing for the past 100+ years. We have to learn, have to change. Otherwise, we will be beaten and humiliated again and again.

  368. And how an institutions can empower individuals if those who are in charge of the institution don’t know how to do so? Mao tried, what he did? Culture revolution. What he got? Chaos and destructions.

  369. So, I would like to make myself clear once again.

    The culture aspects that I have been talking about are the believes, values, virtues, codes of conduct, common wisdom, ….., the things that our parents ingrained in us since we were born, reinforced by the environment and society we grew up in, the things that determine the ways we think and act. I consider these as the core or the backbone of a culture. They runs in everybody’s blood without our conscious awareness. They sometimes are as powerful as a gene. In Chinese culture, these aspects were dominated by Confucianism for almost 2000 years.

  370. @ ChineseMom

    If I may weigh into the culture debate just a bit?

    I think that WOWO hit a very true note when he began to point at the institutions as the engines of cultural influence and ascension. But let me also add that I think something has been missed in the discussion thus far.

    Often people speak of “Western Culture” and “Eastern Culture” without taking into account what I would call “the amalgamation factor.” That is to say that as human societies progressed worldwide, a part of that progression was an increase in the speed and range of mobility. So, the more that human cultures evolved the quicker it was that they came into collision with one another.

    Now the first collisions were violent wars of territorial supremacy, but many of these soon subsided into trading, protective alliances, and cultural drift. People began eating each other’s food, and taking each other’s women. Entire societies began to “steal” the best ideas, technologies, and techniques, that they found in neighboring cultures. In a word, they began to “amalgamate” cultures, particularly in areas where two or more cultures overlapped. And this amalgamation become more probable and more rapid with every advance in technology.

    Today, the more technologically advanced a culture is generally, the more amalgamated it will become. US culture itself is highly amalgamated. When you think of it, many of our favorite foods, styles, inventions, celebrities, technologies, came at least to some degree, from outside of the borders of the US—a country prides itself on being a “nation of immigrants.” Which brings me back to my point. What exactly is “Western Culture” these days? It seems to be a culture that is also strongly influenced by the East (and vice versa of course)

    Western culture, at this stage of development, is not solely based on ideas and ideals from The West. It’s more like a collection of worldwide ideas that continues to exist under the national framework initiated by it’s original Western founders. Now, I don’t deny that Western ideas are still more plentiful and more closely followed in the US than Eastern ideas, but we must also realize that Eastern ideas have influenced the West much more today than in any recent century.

    Many in the East are looking toward the rise of Chinese Culture and influence in the future world. I hate to say it, but that is never going to happen in the way that most people think that it will. Soon there will be no “Chinese Culture” that has not been seriously amalgamated into the prevailing “First World Culture.” China is growing but it is also growing more and more Western with each day (Just as the US in growing more Eastern). The end result will not be a resurgent Chinese Culture but a capitalist, democratic, consumerist, superpower that will look more and more like the West, as the West will continue to replicate and repackage Eastern Culture for mass consumption on this side of the Date Line.

    All culture is transient, and by nature, continually redefined until it is finally abandoned for a new cultural identity.

  371. ChineseMom,

    King brings up a good point above. It’s kind of like Brazilian jujitsu. A good number of new submissions come from wrestling and modern MMA, but BJJ gets the credit because they’re the amalgamator. When judo began swallowing other schools of jujitsu during the 1800s, it was the same deal–judo got the credit because it was the amalgamator, even if they didn’t invent all the moves. Western culture is much the same. In fact, if China does rise to the top, it’s likely that some historians will give the West credit because the West has amalgamated so much.

    One point on “superior”: It’s not about the power the word holds on people, but rather the need to be precise with language. I have no issue with people saying that Western culture currently has organizational “superiority” over all other cultures. It’s true. But what about other aspects of culture. Is the food superior? Calligraphy? Philosophy? I don’t think either of us believes that the West is superior in terms of food. I don’t think all of the chefs on the food channel believe that.

    You raise some good points about the ways my body and mind are “superior” to my son’s. I’m stronger, have more knowledge, can run longer distances, and can jump higher.

    But there are other areas where my son is superior. He’s more flexible (can do a butterfly and touch his knees to the ground), can learn foreign languages with a more accurate accent, has no pain from old injuries, and has a healthier level of body fat.

    In past 150+ years, China were forced to see that the Wests are more “mature” than us and acknowledge their “maturity”. This may make many of the weaker ones among us lost self confidence and self respect, but also make the stronger ones to think, to exam our weakness and find ways to improve ourselves. This is exactly what we have been doing for the past 100+ years. We have to learn, have to change. Otherwise, we will be beaten and humiliated again and again.

    Outside of science and organization/institutions, what are the Chinese trying to learn from the West that the West isn’t also trying to learn from the Chinese? Outside of the military might, media power, and capitalist surplus that comes from science and organization, where have the Chinese been humiliated? That’s what I’m saying. The West has been superior in science and management, but outside of that, I don’t know if there is much of an accepted hierarchy where West always beats East. That was my point in bringing up yoga and Buddhism. LOTS of Westerners head East to find spiritual fulfillment that is hard to find in Western culture.

    Regarding the “mature” thing–people commonly use terms like “developed countries” or “third world” countries to describe this “maturity.” But again, I think they’re speaking only about economics, which comes about only if a country/culture has strong institutions.

  372. ChineseMom:

    So, I would like to make myself clear once again.

    The culture aspects that I have been talking about are the believes, values, virtues, codes of conduct, common wisdom, ….., the things that our parents ingrained in us since we were born, reinforced by the environment and society we grew up in, the things that determine the ways we think and act. I consider these as the core or the backbone of a culture. They runs in everybody’s blood without our conscious awareness. They sometimes are as powerful as a gene. In Chinese culture, these aspects were dominated by Confucianism for almost 2000 years.

    So the Chinese invented Confucianism. But the West invented fundamentalist Christianity! You know, the guys who attack abortion clinics, spread hatred against gay people, fight against scientists who talk about global warming and evolution, and declare wars because God told them to do so. If you look at what Galileo went through, it was not until relatively recently that the nutjobs became the exception rather than the norm. And exactly one president ago, we had one in the White House.

  373. @King,

    I agree with many of what you said, but not completely. I might get back to you later.

    @big,

    I would have to say that you really don’t have any in depth understanding or knowledge about China, Chinese and Chinese culture. You only know something very superficial. I probably have to give up on you. :(

    So, I’ll make one last try.

    First, please think about the differences between the US today and tribes in amazon rainforests or Africa.

    Next, imagine what Western Europe were like 600 years ago at Late Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages). I would say that Late Qing Dynasty in China 100 years ago were EQUAL but DIFFERENT to Late Middle Ages in the West in terms of civilization development and culture.

    Then, re-read what I said before.
    …………………….

    Then ask yourself:
    1, In past 600+ years, the West only progressed in science and management?
    2, What culture elements needed for the science and management that developed in Western society in past 600+ years?
    3, Do you think that if we give today’s knowledge about science and management to people 600 years ago in Europe, they can get it and accept it immediately and build a modern society like we have now in short period of time? If so, African people should be able to do that too. Do you know 30 years ago that China was a lot poorer and less developed than many of the Africa countries?

    4, Does fundamentalist Christianity today has the hold over society as the Church 600+ years ago?

  374. LMAO! I understand what “Maoism” is now thanks to this first-hand example. Truth be told I had despaired of ever meeting a living relic ever since the 90s.

    Maoism is a type of communist movement that seeks to create total social control via the elimination of people deemed “counter-revolutionaries”, this strategy to maintain power and enforce compliance within the population is disguised as a form of “cultural” development and reinvigoration. XD

  375. Chinese progress has been retarded by centuries of Imperial rule and then decades of Communist tyranny, with the disastrous famine causing catastrophes like the Great Leap Forward and the Tangshan earthquake highlighting the incompetency and lack of knowledge of the political leaders, the elimination of the intellectuals during the Cultural Revolution further cementing Chinese people into totalitatrian control.

    All of this is glossed over and so the backward state of Chinese people must then be ascribed to the “culture” instead of where it properly belongs: Communist epic failure.

  376. Raguel:

    Even the Communist mistakes were Western in nature, as Communism doesn’t come from China. That’s what I’m talking about–the East looks at the West to improve organization and science. I don’t know if they look at anything else. I’d gladly be corrected if this isn’t the case. I see lots of Chinese companies respecting American MBAs, but the love doesn’t go in the other direction.

  377. ChineseMom:

    “I would have to say that you really don’t have any in depth understanding or knowledge about China, Chinese and Chinese culture.”

    I don’t doubt that at all. Which is why I rely on you to show me the Chinese way! :) But I do know a thing or two about Western history and colonialism.

    So here are my answers to your questions:

    1.

    In past 600+ years, the West only progressed in science and management?

    No, but I didn’t say anything like that.

    Science and management is what enabled the West to dominate and enabled other aspects of culture to dominate. In fact, all other cultural aspects are almost irrelevant because it’s science and organization that enables one country to dominate another. Everything that enabled the West to “win”–guns, germs, steel, liberal democracy, capitalism, empire, the modern gun, the corporation, the computer, the press, the motion picture camera–is a result of Western science and how Western society is organized. Even Christianity became a political force because of Western politics and organization.

    2.

    What culture elements needed for the science and management that developed in Western society in past 600+ years?

    As I said, it’s science and organization. The cultural foundation was already there. But in the last 600 years, there were many innovations, including empire, capitalism, guns, computers, the corporation, and other forms of technology. Many of these developments became powerful after years of growth. The world has exploded in the last couple hundred years in terms of the speed of progress.

    The most important cultural element in Western society in the past 600 years is, in my opinion, liberal democracy, which began with when the U.S. was formed 236 years ago. I don’t know how big it is in other Western countries, but it’s everything in the U.S. Where else can you use the law to sue the government? It’s liberal democracy that allows freedom, which is why a lot of people immigrate. Not all people who immigrate may be familiar with the term “liberal democracy,” but they know what it means.

    3.

    Do you think that if we give today’s knowledge about science and management to people 600 years ago in Europe, they can get it and accept it immediately and build a modern society like we have now in short period of time? If so, African people should be able to do that too. Do you know 30 years ago that China was a lot poorer and less developed than many of the Africa countries?

    Immediately? No. Progress takes time.

    HOWEVER, if Africans learned and incorporated Western knowledge about science and management, they would be able to build powerful societies. The problem in many African countries is that the people in power abuse those who aren’t in power. There isn’t much of a middle class, they don’t set up many corporations, there is little democracy and capitalism.

    China was poorer and less developed than many African countries years ago. But Sun Yat-Sen studied in the West, and Mao studied communism, which also comes from the West. (Does this not prove my point?) Zhou and Deng also studied abroad. Using a top down managed approach, China changed its government and approach to the rest of the world. See, it’s science and organization.

    4.

    Does fundamentalist Christianity today has the hold over society as the Church 600+ years ago?

    No, it doesn’t, but as I said, we’re one president removed from a fundamentalist leader. Does Confucianism have the same hold over Chinese society as it did 600+ years ago? Things naturally change over time, but the roots are still there. That is why Western historians sometimes refer to this culture as “Western Christianity.”

  378. Just as impressive as the western progress in science and management is the western refinement of imperial propaganda. The west (mainly the U.S.) is able to sell to the rest of the world how the shooting, bombing and exploitation of much weaker countries is actually a good thing for their citizens.

  379. @MMJames,

    Yes Yes, You got it!!!!

    The west is way more “mature” than rest of the world in brain washing people and controlling people’s mind. People don’t even notice that and thought that only Communists does that. NO! Communists are very “immature” in that area, may be 100 years in behind if not more.

  380. @big,

    I can’t believe that your mind is so fixed on that kinds of things. I felt like that I’m a incompetent teacher trying to correct a student’s bad habit learnt from previous bad teacher.

    Now I can understand Mao more about his frustration with Chinese so called “intellectuals” of his time. :(

    If you really know the Western history, then tell me a thing or two about Enlightenment, its influence on Western culture, people and the advancement of your precious Western knowledge about science and management.

  381. Pure nonsense.

    It’s too bad Mao never taught his worshippers to debate or develop ideas properly.

  382. @Raguel,

    Has it ever occur to you that for somebody in today’s environment to be a Mao’s “worshipper”, he/she has to really know what she/he is talking about, has really to have a brain, knowledge, courage and be able to see through a lots of things?

    When Mao die at 1976, I was really young. Deng took over power at 1978 and started to correct Mao’s mistake. Mao has been demonized since then in China and abroad.

    I believe that you got a brain. Just try to learn to use it. Okay?

  383. Also Raguel, try to learn a thing or two from Western culture that you hate so much. At least in school they teach young kids not to be judgemental.

    I found that you know almost nothing about China, Chinese culture, Mao, communists, Lu Xun or Ah Q, but you are really brave and dare to open you mouth and judge.

  384. ChineseMom,

    There are a number of books about why the West “won.” The latest book I read was Civilization by Niall Ferguson. Ignore the Christian apologetics, and you’ll have a decent book on how it all went down:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/12/civilization-the-west-and-the-rest-by-niall-ferguson-review/

    All of his chapters deal with organization or science. More organization than science. Without exception.

    There’s another good book called “Guns, Germs, and Steel” that talks about how the West used its advantages. Jared Diamond, the author, wrote about how China’s disadvantage was mostly in its separation from other areas and its centralized government.

    Mao and how he dealt with intellectuals is actually a great example of different systems. Mao was frustrated with intellectuals, and he burned books, put people in prison, and murdered people. I won’t argue whether Mao and his actions were necessary or not. The important questions are what is immediately in front of us and go back to the whole idea about liberal democracy. In a liberal democracy, people have rights that are outlined in the law and cannot be taken away (in theory, of course).

    Why do people immigrate to the U.S.? Why do they leave their countries…even rich countries like South Korea…to come here?

    In many cases, it has something to do with freedom or something rooted in freedom–which is an organizational issue. The country in the U.S. is based on liberal democracy, which basically means that an individual’s rights are guaranteed by law. Being creative and expressive yields bigger dividends in this country than in others, which is why people come here. It’s also safe because the U.S. is backed by a large military and has global influence.

    In other cases, it has to do with money and power, which come about because of organization and science. Without superior weapons and a chain of command that ensures a civilian-controlled armed forces, the U.S. wouldn’t have its international standing.

    Even Western art and how it is currently practiced comes about because of organization. In other countries, you can get killed for writing something or saying something that the government doesn’t approve of. Here, people have rights. Which is why our education and media is the way it is.

    ChineseMom, it’s science and organization, and it’s really almost all organization these days. If you look at some of the Italian and Greek immigrant stories, Western societies were just as restrictive on the family level. It’s the different system–the one in which rights play an important part–that create almost all of the different cultural advantages. Without that as a backbone, there is very little progress and/or reason for people to come here.

  385. @Raguel,

    I’ll respond to your this post
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2012/03/more-asian-americans-marrying-within-their-race/#comment-22466
    on this thread because it is more relevant here.

    “Chinese from mainland China are also considered to completely lack ethics, culture, higher morality and any shred of human empathy.”

    Now that we are on the same page about the “fucking Chinese” who pissed you off. The only differences are that you seemed despise the people but still love the culture that produces these people, and don’t want to change. I, on the other hand, want this culture to be changed but love the people, completely accept and be proud of myself from that crowd you despised. I want our culture to change, to rebuilt our value system and reinvent ourselves so that our people can have this “ethics, culture, higher morality and any shred of human empathy”.

    to be continued

  386. Chinese Mom, I only repeated a common prejudice that a minor but significant portion of Chinese here have against Chinese from the Mainland. In no way do I agree with them.

  387. Actually it’s not a minority view, however I still think that it’s prejudiced.

  388. (continued)

    @Raguel,

    I’m also curious what area of the world you are now. The area you described doesn’t sound like any of the Western country. Are you in Singapore? Because the fucking mainland Chinese who “lack ethics, culture, higher morality and any shred of human empathy” don’t go to poor and not so developed Indonesia or Malaysia. Only Singapore government recruited (giving scholarship) Chinese mainlander smart kids to go there for high school or college since late 90’s in hope to improve their “gene” pool. Because their “majority of Chinese here came from poor and ignorant backgrounds, so they didn’t even want to send their daughters to school, saying that it was of not much use”.

  389. I will add also that some people seem to think that Chinese culture is a monolithic entity, that all people who are Chinese will necessarily think the same way, have the same viewpoints or share the same core values.

    This isn’t true. Overseas Chinese culture has diverged in significant ways in tune with its people. We are proud to call ourselves Chinese (and also shit on the backward aspects of the culture and people), and I will let nobody shit on our heritage wholesale.

  390. @Raguel,

    You don’t need to deny that. You feeling for mainland Chinese are quite obvious to me. And those views are not prejudiced, it’s the fact. I also consider Chinese from mainland China nowadays are lack ethics, culture, higher morality and human empathy. That’s why I feel so strongly that we need to exam our culture and rebuilt the values system.

  391. No, I don’t have any particular feelings about mainland Chinese except I like the women from the north because they have bigger breasts I mean they are nicer to hug. :D

    There is nothing wrong with Chinese culture. Chinese culture survived outside China, despite all our troubles and our problems. Were there bad things? Yes. Did we make progress? We did! Are there still things left to do? Surely!

    But the problems in mainland China can be directly attributed to Mao’s purges and a political and legal system that does not protect its people, and lowers them to a point where every person can only look out for himself.

    But perhaps it is easier to blame Mao because he was ideologically motivated. I don’t complain about some of his other decisions. The fact is, Dr Sun’s ideas for a modern China died a stillbirth the moment Chiang Kai-Shek turned to fascism and began concentrating power into military cronyism. After all of those murders and purges began, it was all downhill from there. Things could have been different.

    You say that the Chinese have a problem with their own culture. I disagree. I think that the problem is their politics, their awareness and their action.

  392. (continued)

    @Raguel,

    “My understanding of the history is not complete”.

    Your understanding of your own country’s history is not even complete, and yet again you dare to open your big mouth and judge, contributing the bad thing’s that happen in China to Mao, to communist, to political and legal system?

    You are really brainwashed by the “mature” Western media and you are not even aware of that.

    (to be continued)

  393. @Raguel,

    “There is nothing wrong with Chinese culture. ”

    You don’t even aware that the bad part of Chinese(or Asian) culture is running in your blood NOW. You probably haven’t noticed that other people on this board who stay in the West long enough or born here are not as judgemental as you are, they don’t talk about the things they don’t know with such confidence as you do.

  394. @Raguel,

    “No, I don’t have any particular feelings about mainland Chinese except I like the women from the north because they have bigger breasts I mean they are nicer to hug.”

    You are probably also not aware of that this is a bad joke by saying this to me, a mainland Chinese woman. It is in a very bad taste and sexist (prove in a way the stereotype that AMs are sexists), also showed that you are not that cultured compare to those mainland Chinese you are despised of.

  395. My apologies i offended you like that, i was not even aware of that possibility. I am quite a crude person. 8(

  396. Lastly how many times must i tell you that i do not despise mainland chinese? I keep telling you that is the prejudice against them.

  397. @Raguel,

    Even the die hard white supremacists in this country usually don’t admit publicly that they are racists. That would be too “immature”, uncultured and politically incorrect. But black people can tell that they are the racists from their actions. I believe King can tell you a lot more about this.

    I don’t believe that you are consciously despise mainland Chinese people. Even if you do, I don’t mind at all. It is true that people in China nowadays are lack of ethics, culture, higher morality and human empathy. We all know that and we acknowledge that. In late 90’s there was a saying that “十亿人民九亿骗,还有一亿在训练” in China(I believe you know some Chinese so I won’t translate for you). The only problems are whose fault is that and what we could do to change that.

    (to be continued)

  398. ‘I want our culture to change, to rebuilt our value system and reinvent ourselves so that our people can have this “ethics, culture, higher morality and any shred of human empathy’

    I agree with Chinesemom. Also some overseas Chinese have become arrogant with an over-westernised attitude. Anti-mainlander attitude runs throughout all western colonised overseas colonies. Taiwan, Singapore, HK, Macao etc because of this.

    If you have real Chinese heart you will respect China and Chinese culture. If you dont, its hard for you to be considered a real ethnic Chinese. Because you’re too whitewashed.

  399. @TD

    “I agree with Chinesemom. Also some overseas Chinese have become arrogant with an over-westernised attitude. Anti-mainlander attitude runs throughout all western colonised overseas colonies. Taiwan, Singapore, HK, Macao etc because of this”.

    Yes and no.

    While I do agree some members of the Chinese diaspora crowd feel shame about their heritage (ala Singaporeans lol), there is a little bit more to it than just the “boohoo, I’m Chinese” angle.

    Take Hong Kong for example. Recently, a lot of mainlanders have been coming to HK and buying up tons of properties. Not a bad proposition at first but along with the increased mainland population, you also have more traffic and higher housing prices that are phasing out some of the older generation locals. Furthermore, if mainlanders have babies in Hong Kong, many of their kids will then get benefits most HK citizens get which isn’t bad but it does put more strain on social services, etc., simply from a numbers standpoint. And yes, a lot of these are the same anti-Mexican rhetoric that exist in the US.

    A good portion of my mom’s side of the family have lived in HK for 2 generations and their feelings toward mainlander are fairly negative because of the above. However, this does NOT mean they hate being Chinese and are “white worshippers”. If anything, they’re some of the most bigoted people I know and every family reunion I have with them always ends up including some drunken diatribe by my uncle / cousins about how much they hate white people or how we should all head over to Lan Kwai Fong after dinner and instigate a fight with some “gwei los” LOL.

  400. ^ What do you think is the feasibility of enlarging the Hong Kong administrative and political district to include significant parts of the mainland and the surrounding areas?

    It’s just a wild guess on my part but it may ease population pressures…

  401. @trolldetector and rayinseattle,

    I think that arrogant anti-mainlander attitude in Taiwan, Singapore, HK, Macao is more complicated than just the western colonization, they are from the Chinese culture after all. To me, it is more like the new riches looking down on others because these new riches haven’t had time to develop human empathy, compassion and political correctness. It is more or less the same in China, people in more developed cities like Shanghai or Beijing often have that arrogant superior attitude toward people from poorer places. Even the new riches from less developed area are often being looked down upon and ridiculed for being less “cultured” or in wrong “style”, etc. I think it is just part of human natures.

    Hong Kong people’s feelings toward mainlanders has changed a lot in past several decades. I had relatives from HK visited us in 80’s, the time China was negotiating with Britain regarding the returning of HK to China. Their teen age daughter once told me something like “we are British, not Chinese”. Britain later issued a lot of passports to qualified HK Chinese but don’t treat them as citizens and won’t allow them to immigrate to Britain, LOL. My relatives’ attitude toward China have changed a lot since then.

    I think ray’s view on HK is correct but not complete. HK media controlled by the elite class has always been pro-West in my view. A lot of the social services used up by mainlanders are also caused by HK government. When HK’s economics was in the down turn, they often came up to Central government asking for help, ask Chinese government to let Chinese people and company to invest in HK, to allow tourists to visit HK, or to let rich people to give birth at HK’s private hospital (which cost over 10K US dollars)……, but forgot that increases in mainlanders will also cause strain on social services. Chinese mainlanders are not allowed to visit Hong Kong freely, even as tourist. If I, a Chinese passport holder from America, want to visit Hong Kong, I have to apply permit from Chinese consulate. It is very hard for people from relatively poor area in China to get permit on their own.

  402. (continued)

    Chinese in South East Asia countries like Malaysia, Indonesia…. have always been proud of their Chinese heritages, supported China during the anti-Japanese war and even Mao’s new China.

    In Singapore’s case, I don’t think it is Singapore people’s fault. The only one that pathetic is Singapore’s formal ruler and prime minister Lee Kuan Yew, a British educated Chinese, who led Singapore to gain independence from Malaysia in 60’s. He banned Chinese language education in this 75%+ Chinese country, made the English the first and official language. Before 80’s, more than 80% of the families spoke Chinese at home. Nowadays, 70% of the families speak broken English at home. That what I’ve heard. Raguel can correct me if I’m wrong. You don’t deny that you are in Singapore, so I assume my guessing is correct.

  403. 一代不如一代

    Chinese people should learn to see the bigger picture. Does it not strike them as interesting how anxieties about China’s rise are being encouraged in areas with large Chinese diasporas, even while the global elite are intensifying their efforts to penetrate mainland Chinese society and gain a foothold?

    With things like culture, if people within it do not take an active participation in promoting it, then OTHER people will do it for you and in time it is them who will decide what your culture and heritage is about, not you. The calumny and slander in Maxine Kingston-Hong’s “Warrior Woman” comes to mind.

    Shitting on fellow Chinese is like shitting on your own brother, and shitting on the culture is like shitting on your own surname and parent’s grave.

  404. Raguel,

    LOL, do you know what you are talking about? You are contradicting yourself all over this post. :o)

    “一代不如一代”. Are you trying to show me that you know some Chinese? But do you know what does it mean? It means that “the new generation is not as good as old generation”.

    Obviously you know that China is rising which even caused anxieties in your country with majority Chinese population as you said. Overwhelmingly majority Chinese people in China are enjoying the best life they could have in 2000 years. So this “一代不如一代”, are you referring to your generation of Singaporeans who lost their culture heritage is not as good as last generation? LOL

    I thought you want China to rise, how come suddenly you have this anxieties? What we could do to reduce your anxieties about China’s rise? Making English as our first and official language, then promoting Confucianism in China and world as Lee Kuan Yew in Singapore did? LOL

    “Shitting on fellow Chinese is like shitting on your own brother”. So now you realize that you have been shitting on your own brothers by calling them “fucking Chinese people”, saying “Chinese from mainland China are also considered to completely lack ethics, culture, higher morality and any shred of human empathy.” LOL

    True, I shitted on Lee Kuan Yew, but I don’t consider him as my brother at all. You should have known more about him than I do. If I am wrong, you can correct me with FACTS.

    I’m shitting on the my own culture because I want it to change so that we won’t have people like you to shit on us anymore. Anything wrong with that?

  405. You admit to shitting on your own culture? Hmm. That may be the root of all your disagreements with me.

    :D

    ;)

  406. LOL

    Raguel, don’t tell me that you are still in love with this Confucianism so you don’t like me to shit on it. :)

    From the way you talk about the left over Chinese culture in Singapore, I’m pretty sure you have no idea what Confucianism is. You didn’t even bother to google it:)

  407. Also, Raguel, because you mentioned it, could you enlighten me why the “anxieties about China’s rise are being encouraged in areas with large Chinese diasporas”, specially in Singapore. I actually have been curious about this for quite a while. Why Singapore’s Lee Kuan Yew has been running around the West in past 20 years asking them to CONTAIN China ? China is his grandparents’ country, why he hates China so much?

  408. I feel that I hijacked this thread for too long that other people can’t talk about men-competing-for-white-women thing anymore, I apologize for this. But since I’ve already talked so much here, I figure that I’d better finish my blabber about China and Chinese culture here so that I can save it for later use on educating my own kids.

    @big,

    So, let’s continue this discussion about culture.

    You spread the topics too wide and each topic is worthy of writing a book about. So I’ll concentrate on a few things.

    Since you mentioned Ferguson’s book, now I understand where are you coming from. I think you probably misunderstood me a bit.

    Let me be clear about myself first:

    I don’t think that because Western countries seemed won at this point of human history, so they must be superior at every way, or we should abandon ourselves and become like them. No, I’m not like that at all.

    I also don’t have that inferiority complex either. And exactly because of this, I’m very confident and comfortable enough to talk about the weakness in our culture and acknowledge the strength in others, so that we can learn from others and improve ourselves. I hope you can trust me on this.
    ———–

  409. (continued)

    I didn’t read the two books you mentioned, and from your summary and comments, I felt I don’t need to read it at this time. :)

    I think the six “killer aps” Ferguson talked about, Guns/Germs/Steel, or the liberal democracy and freedom you believed in are all the fruits of modern Western culture (starting at Renaissance, including the elements from Egypt, Greeks and Christianity).
    Without the basic culture soil, people from other culture can’t not just take the fruits from the West, plant them in their own fundamentally different soil and hope those fruits will also grow in their land. Unfortunately, this is exactly what many developing countries have been trying to do, also the reason they fail.

    What is so great about Mao is he truly knew and deeply understood about his own soil, he didn’t simply plant the fruit from the West into his own soil, he enlightened by other people’s idea, and planted something of his own. His shortcoming is he was from a very backward society (like a man from Late Middle Ages Europe), had never been to the West to see what modern society was like, so he didn’t quite know how to build a modern society, and nobody in China knew either. Still, his accomplishments is extremely great. We should not judge him with standards for modern leader..

  410. @big,

    Also about your review of Ferguson’s book, I’m not a Christian and not intend to become one, but I’m probably more in agreement with him on Christianity than with you, even though I haven’t read the book yet. :)

  411. “But since I’ve already talked so much here, I figure that I’d better finish my blabber about China and Chinese culture here so that I can save it for later use on educating my own kids.”

    You haven’t actually told us anything yet.

    “I also don’t have that inferiority complex either. And exactly because of this, I’m very confident and comfortable enough to talk about the weakness in our culture and acknowledge the strength in others, so that we can learn from others and improve ourselves. I hope you can trust me on this.”

    You have not talked about specific weaknesses in the culture and what can be done either. The only thing you have said in this thread is that Chinese culture is inferior to “better” western culture, but you treated that point as an axiom, an uncontestable point within which a larger argument could be put forth. However the debate is limited by its assumptions.

    You could have developed your points further in any case to show us your train of thoughts and the logical progression of your ideas, or you could have justified and clarified your views with regards to how you measure the “superiority” or “inferiority” of a culture, but so far what we have seen from you on this is a cartoonish and one dimensional understanding of Chinese culture or even any culture, not to even mention our back and forth childish spat.

    To settle this matter once and for all I challenge you to tell us what is SPECIFICALLY weak or bad within Chinese culture and what are your thoughts on what could be done better.

    Also just to clarify… when I say “fucking Chinese” I do not refer to the entirety of Chinese people, only specific elements and behaviors within the group which I deem to be the acts of “fucking people/bastards”. I presume that much of the gripes in here are pretty much the same. I can accept your clarification that you do not speak from an inferiority complex, although I am still puzzled as to why you would use the language of inferiority and self-loathing in your initial arguments about Chinese culture.

  412. Raguel,

    “I well let nobody shit on Chinese culture. ROAR!”

    LOL.

    Your intention to defend Chinese culture is great. But you really have to let yourself know more about it, A LOT MORE (because your knowledge about China and Chinese culture is next to zero at this moment), and learn not to be judgmental unless you are absolutely sure what you are talking about. Otherwise you will only make a FOOL of yourself like you have been doing here. :).

    Before you challenge me for anything, I suggest you first start your new learning process by google the phrase “CULTURE DEFINITION for KIDS” to make sure you understand what the word “culture” means. If you are not too dumb, you then will know how much Chinese culture, its specific weaknesses and many other things I have told you. :)
    ————

    Now that you have explained it, so the “fucking Chinese people” you said before was referring to the self-loathing Lee Kuan Yew type, right? :)

    By the way, you haven’t explain to me why Singaporeans have this “anxieties about China’s rise” and why Singapore’s former dictator Lee Kuan Yew has been running around the West in past 20 years asking them to CONTAIN China. I’d rather you talk about something you know instead of talking about things you don’t know and not even capable of knowing at this moment.

  413. @big,

    I found a good article about Lu Xun’s dissecting and criticizing of Chinese culture for you. Lu Xun had a different view from Ferguson on why we “lost”, not only to the West, but also to Mongolian, Manchu, why we always being invaded. You may see the roots for many of the AMs’ problems.

    The google translation may not be that good, but hopefully good enough to give you a rough idea.

    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://zhidao.baidu.com/question/17939989.html&ei=GLyAT9f0Dcehtwea542WBg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDQQ7gEwAQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E6%2589%25B9%25E5%2588%25A4%25E4%25B8%25AD%25E5%25BA%25B8%25E4%25B9%258B%25E9%2581%2593%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Dimvns

  414. ChineseMom:

    Thanks for the link! I’ll read this week. Give me a few days, and I’ll post up my comments.

    I definitely trust you on this, and I don’t believe that you believe that Western culture is superior on all levels. You wouldn’t be talking about Gou Jian and educating us about Chinese culture if you didn’t like it. :)

    I think the six “killer aps” Ferguson talked about, Guns/Germs/Steel, or the liberal democracy and freedom you believed in are all the fruits of modern Western culture (starting at Renaissance, including the elements from Egypt, Greeks and Christianity).

    I see what you’re saying, but my point is that the “cultural soil” you speak of is based on organization. People will do what the laws or government will allow or encourage them to do. And yes, there are elements in the basic culture, but these elements come in large part because of organization and how people are treated by their government.

    Take, for example, democracy. Not liberal democracy, but just democracy. Democracy existed in ancient Greece. Leaders were elected, which encouraged them to speak up and share what they had to say, debate ideas, etc. Without this system of government (which I’m sure filtered on down to smaller Greek institutions), there would be no need to speak out. There would be no Demosthenes or Pericles speaking out and rallying the people. The later Europeans benefited from this.

    If you put Demosthenes or Pericles under a government that does not encourage people to speak up and speak well, they won’t do well.

    Even now, it’s quite easy for Asian Americans to become liberally democratic. But it’s not going to take place in China because speaking out and being loud doesn’t necessarily get you ahead. I’d love to spend some time living in China, but I think we all know that my own personality–even if I were born there–would be different due to the way the government and leaders encourage Chinese people to be.

  415. @ Chinese Mom,

    Stop writing so much and posting so many links about Lu Xun. Lu Xun lived one hundred years ago. Make your points with your own words to show that you understand how Lu Xun’s writings still apply in modern times.

    If you don’t know how to debate properly and need me to teach you such basic things, then I’m afraid that you calling me ignorant is like 狗眼看人低 ! :D

  416. @Raguel,

    You proved that you are indeed very ignorant AGAIN by using the idiom “狗眼看人低” in a very wrong way. :)

    Singapore’s former dictator Lee Kuan Yew really screwed up your generation badly.

  417. No, it is correct, and moreover, it FITS you perfectly. :D

    Don’t pretend like you’re the only one here who speaks Chinese. :)

  418. I’m surprised that you don’t know what 狗眼看人低 means. Are you actually even Chinese? 8o

  419. Whatever. You don’t even know what that idiom means. You are NOT Chinese.

    Troll detected. >8[

  420. Raguel,

    Because you are still young, so I’ll give you one more advice:

    DON”T EVER TRY TO USE CHINESE TO INSULT A NATIVE CHINESE.

    Because you will only make a fool of yourself and be humiliated.

  421. ROFLMAO!

    You think that if you type in capital letters I will feel scared? :D

    Go ahead and tell us all what 狗眼看人低 (kou yan kan ren ti) means.

    If you don’t, you either don’t understand it, or don’t dare to admit it. 8)

    No Chinese doesn’t know the meaning of this phrase. >8[

    You can talk all you want about me, it’s quite obvious to everyone that it is you who is playing the role of Ah Q now. :D

  422. Raguel, If Chinesemom is from the mainland and older than you, she obviously has a fair knowledge on Chinese history/cultural identity, possibly more than yourself if you are a Singaporean.

    One of the traditions of Chinese culture is to respect your elders. But instead you are just behaving in what seems like every recent thread I read on here like some spoilt brat. Try and respect others opinions on here instead of trying to do one over on them to the point of smart alec namecalling.

  423. @big,

    Here is a good article on Confucius’ Doctrine of Mean and it effects on Chinese people’s morality, believe and way of thinking in history and today. I probably will talk more about it later.

    The google translation at some of the place is really bad because original article cited some ancient Chinese. Just remember in that translation, “moderation” and “mean” are mostly referring to Doctrine of Mean, “German” is referring to virtues or morals

    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=zh-CN&u=http://www.yuehaifeng.com.cn/YHF2000/yhf1-9-10.htm&ei=GLyAT9f0Dcehtwea542WBg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CHkQ7gEwCA&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25E6%2589%25B9%25E5%2588%25A4%25E4%25B8%25AD%25E5%25BA%25B8%25E4%25B9%258B%25E9%2581%2593%26hl%3Den%26prmd%3Dimvns

  424. @ Trolldetector,

    Practice self-restraint yourself before you preach it. Now fuck off.

  425. @td,

    Thanks for defending me here. But you really don’t need to argue with him at this point anymore. He has totally lost his mind and forgot even the basic logic.

  426. Lol Chinese Mom, I thought you hate Ah Q so much, so why do you imitate him? :D

    You want to know some basic logic? Your google translate links are not intelligible, hence the importance of you writing what you mean in your own words.

    That shouldn’t be too difficult, should it? :)

  427. Raguel,

    You probably haven’t realized that if you are really good at Chinese and interested in Chinese culture as you have been trying to prove here, then you can find the original Chinese article from those google translation links I posted.

    Sigh…

  428. Even if I could read the original Chinese text, how many people here do you think could do the same?

    Don’t treat every point and argument I make as a personal attack on you, Chinese Mom. Treat them as suggestions or maybe even medicine. It will help the discussion here to develop properly.

  429. Why I talked about Lun Xun so much? Why he is so relevant?

    Because Lu Xun exposed many Chinese national characters 80+ years ago that are still well alive today. He let us know how pitiful and problematic we were and still are for some of us. Knowing those characters in Lu Xun’s stories will help people understand today’s China and aware how much work ahead of us.

    For example, take a look at Raguel here. He has proved himself to be ignorant, arrogant, illogical, unable to think or reason, contradicted and insulted himself many times without even realizing it, acted like a spoiled brat, shitted on his own brothers as he admitted later, admired the bullies who beat women, ……. And yet, every time when I helped him to realize that he humiliated or insulted himself, he would just try to be cocky and persuade himself mentally that he is in some way “superior” to me, and continue on to act stupidly then resulting humiliating himself again and again. ……

    Compare him to Ah Q now (from wiki):

    “The True Story of Ah Q (Traditional Chinese: 阿Q正傳; Simplified Chinese: 阿Q正传; pinyin: Ā Q Zhèngzhuàn), is an episodic novella written by Lu Xun”, ….. “The piece is generally held to be a masterpiece of modern Chinese literature, since it is considered the first piece of work fully to utilize Vernacular Chinese after the 1919 May 4th Movement in China.”

    “The story traces the “adventures” of Ah Q, a man from the rural peasant class with little education and no definite occupation. Ah Q is famous for “spiritual victories”, Lu Xun’s euphemism for self-talk and self-deception even when faced with extreme defeat or humiliation. Ah Q is a bully to the less fortunate but fearful of those who are above him in rank, strength, or power. He persuades himself mentally that he is spiritually “superior” to his oppressors even as he succumbs to their tyranny and suppression. Lu Xun exposes Ah Q’s extreme faults as symptomatic of the Chinese national character of his time. ”

    ————–

    Raguel, I didn’t want to insult you. I have been refraining myself from doing this for too long. But now you mentioned Ah Q, you showed yourself to be a too perfect Ah Q that I can not pass on this chance anymore to help others to see what Ah Q is like.

    In China today, we don’t have as many this kind of Ah Q as we used to be. I hope you are just the few in Singapore.

  430. “Just as impressive as the western progress in science and management is the western refinement of imperial propaganda. The west (mainly the U.S.) is able to sell to the rest of the world how the shooting, bombing and exploitation of much weaker countries is actually a good thing for their citizens.”

    LOL. That is very true–though also very politically incorrect to mention in these superpatriotic times.

    Whenever America or its “Coalition of the Killing” allies start running their mouth about promoting freedom, democracy, human rights, yadda yadda in a certain country, that’s a good sign for citizens of that nation to head for the bomb shelter!

    American “Predator Drone” democracy just might be coming to a neighborhood near you.

  431. ROFL, stop muttering to yourself about Lu Xun and Ah Q, Chinese Mom. You’re just making yourself look like a crazy woman. :D

    You see, what you don’t realise is that while my guesses about you are accurate, all your guesses about me are completely off the mark, grasping for straws in order to save face.

    But keep on telling yourself all those things. You are familiar with the story of Ah Q who slapped himself after being beaten up to convince himself that he won. :D

  432. “The medieval period is frequently caricatured as supposedly a “time of ignorance and superstition” which placed “the word of religious authorities over personal experience and rational activity.”” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages)

    At the beginning of last century, China was at the end of Qing Dynasty, over 90% of the population were peasants and illiterate (now less than 9% illiteracy but still 50% rural population). Similar to Europe 600 years ago, that time can also be caricatured as supposedly a “time of ignorance and superstition” which placed the word of Confucianism Doctrine over personal experience and rational activity.

    Ah Q under Lu Xun’s pen is a peasant of this era, from the lowest class who is not only ignorant, poor, weak and coward, but also mean, stupid, forgetful, a bully to the less fortunate, never admit his own faults…. He often inflicted humiliation and beating upon himself by his own stupid actions, but never learned the lessons. He used “spiritual victories” to make piece with himself. So even his life was miserable and often being bullied, he was a rather pacified person without knowing what a loser he was. When the revolution came, he thought revolution would bring him women and all the material things he wanted, let him revenge on those who bullied him before, so he tried to join the revolution, acted as a revolutionist. The tragedy was that he didn’t get the chance to join the revolution, but was mistaken (again due to his own ignorant and stupidity) for the robbers who looted the richest family of his village, he was sentenced to death. On his way to the execution ground, he was paraded through the streets to the public, he suddenly realized that his head would be chopped off, he only scared for a second and then relaxed, saying to himself “20 years later, I’ll be another real man”. ….

  433. Raguel,

    I’m glad you finally learned something about Ah Q now. See what you said about him before and compare yourself to him:

    “When Lu Xun criticised chinese culture he criticised very specific aspects of it, as was shown in his story about ah q. He provoked chinese people to challenge the superstition, ossifications and stagnancy in the culture.” —- by Raguel

  434. Chinese mom, I posted that nearly a week ago when Lu Xun’s story was first brought up, and you say that I “finally learned something about Ah Q now“?

    I’m afraid that if you keep talking like this people will think you are a mad woman. :D

  435. ChineseMom,

    The translation has me somewhat lost :), but I think I get it, and I agree with what I’m reading regarding the “moderation” thing. It was like Fight Quest, when the martial artists traveled to China to study kung-fu and then compete, the Chinese let the foreigners win one, and then they let themselves win one, even though their scoring had NOTHING to do with what actually happened during the fight. Very moderation-mean oriented, and very Chinese.

    I agree with you on how this hurts us. It’s probably the reason why outside of Bruce Lee, there are NO Chinese MMA, boxing, or judo champions. We don’t want to kill it badly enough. We want moderation. It’s not an Asian thing, nor is it an East vs. West thing; it’s a Chinese thing. The Koreans and Japanese kill it.
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/04/envy-and-condemnation/

    SO…I came to the conclusion this morning that this is a very very very important topic/subject for me to learn. Thank you so much, ChineseMom, for bringing it up. So I ordered a copy of Ah Q from the bookstore. It’ll be here in a week or two. Once I’ve read it, maybe we can do a podcast and discuss it. Raguel, if you’re up for a podcast (and if y’all are okay talking to each other), you can be in on it too. Would LOVE LOVE LOVE to get this out. Fascinating topic, and maybe it could help a lot of Chinese men struggling to understand what’s going on behind the culture we’ve inherited.

  436. Hi Byron, thanks for the offer. I’ll skip joining in on the podcast. Maybe you’ll have better luck getting Chinese Mom to expand more on what she wants to say.

    Actually, I think that what would be great would be if you could get an actual academic or historian to join in for the sake of balance. For example, Chinese Mom lambasts Confucianism as some sort of root of all evil.

    But historical FACT has been full of stories of Confucian scholars and bureucrats who sacrificed their lives and uhhh… other body parts… for the sake of taking a principled stand and doing what was right. See what happened to Sima Qian, Yuan Chonghuan, Han Shizhong, many others, the thousands of other bureaucrats who were executed, forced to commit suicide, committed suicide in public to protest the actions of their emperor, had their families exterminated etc. The tragedy of Chinese history is that the reward for heroism is a lifetime of suffering and a cruel death.

    People don’t do things like this without having backbone and a strong moral foundation. It is a level of true grit that is difficult to match or find in any other culture.

  437. @big,

    I’m glad you are starting to get it. It’s just the beginning. :)

    These things are not that easy for you guys to understand because it against what you been taught and experiences. It is also not that obvious, most Chinese won’t even get it, because we lack the training of critical thinking that you guys have (just looked at Raguel you will see it). Remember we talked about China’s weak on humanity educations and that hurts us and China? I didn’t only refer to that we lack the education on art, music, literature and sort of the stuff, I was more referring to that we lack the education and training on analyzing our own history and culture, so we can not think and judge CRITICALLY about what happened to us and why. We let other to manipulate and dominate what we should think about us (just take a look on how Chinese in China and abroad view Communists, Mao, culture revolution, Western democracy, …, even our own behaviors), let others to tell our stories, because we can not think and write for ourselves.

    I’m not interested in doing a podcast at this time, especially not with Raguel, don’t let me debate with a 3 years old. I intend to finished my writing here, not only for you guys, but also for my own kids. Organizing my thoughts and writing things down is better than just talking to them, also better than doing the podcast. After I finish here, if you have more questions, we may have a light chat on a podcast.

    So far, I talked about Confucianism, it influences on ordinary Chinese, tried clearing up what culture means and what aspects of culture I’m talking about, tried to establish the historical comparison points between China and the West (China in 100 years ago is equivalent to Europe 700 years ago). I’m planning on talk about Confucius’ Doctrine of Mean which is another pillar in Chinese culture like Confucianism. I then would like to compare the US and China in many aspects that affected by cultures —- the different way of thinking and doing things. The last, I will tell you my thoughts about AM’s problems, the way out and how should we assimilate. This is a quite ambitious project, all depend on my time and mood. If I lost the mood, I may not be able to finish. So be patient but don’t put too much hope on it.

    ———–

    Also, don’t take it lightly about my comparing Raguel to Ah Q. I didn’t write that much for the purpose of insulting him at all, I wouldn’t waste my time on that. The only reason that I do this comparison is because he is too much alike Ah Q. He is a living prove that Lu Xun is still very relevant today. We may see Ah Q’s way of thinking and behaving in us once in a while, but I don’t remember ever see anybody like that to Raguel’s extend in here. Considering how hard Singapore’s government has been trying to whitewash its citizens, you may see how strong the culture force in working here.

  438. “I’m not interested in doing a podcast at this time, especially not with Raguel, don’t let me debate with a 3 years old.”

    I already said I won’t be joining the podcast, so the reason you’re not doing it is because you’re chicken.

    “So far, I talked about Confucianism, it influences on ordinary Chinese, tried clearing up what culture means and what aspects of culture I’m talking about, tried to establish the historical comparison points between China and the West”

    You have done absolutely none of those things. Are you deluded?

    “I’m planning on talk about Confucius’ Doctrine of Mean which is another pillar in Chinese culture like Confucianism.”

    You will post gibberish from Google Translate YET AGAIN.

    “The last, I will tell you my thoughts about AM’s problems, the way out and how should we assimilate. This is a quite ambitious project, all depend on my time and mood. If I lost the mood, I may not be able to finish. So be patient but don’t put too much hope on it.”

    You will never finish it because you never even started.

  439. @Raguel,

    I’m glad that you realize by now that you are not up to the job to debate me and suggest Byron to get an actual academician or historian.

    You know what? I don’t have any formal training in history or humanity, I have never even finished reading one history book ( including the one very thin history text book I had in middle school). But I don’t think you can that easily find a historian who can debate me from an opposite side of views.

    Thanks for thinking so highly of me.

  440. “I’m glad that you realize by now that you are not up to the job to debate me and suggest Byron to get an actual academician or historian.

    You know what? I don’t have any formal training in history or humanity, I have never even finished reading one history book ( including the one very thin history text book I had in middle school). But I don’t think you can that easily find a historian who can debate me from an opposite side of views.

    Thanks for thinking so highly of me.”

    狗眼看人低

    Tell us what that idiom means again?

  441. I’m beginning to wonder if this mad woman is trolling me in the most unimaginable ways, with all the crazy and deluded antics.

    I’m not sure whether to laugh with amusement or cry in horror.

    How can you accuse a person of being Ah Q by doing the exact same thing Ah Q is doing? I must admit that is the epitome of subversive comedy.

    Zhuang Zi Chinese Mom is not.

  442. Hi ChineseMom,

    Thanks! I look forward to what you have to say! I’m currently the most ignorant person here, not having even heard of Ah Q before this conversation, but I will change that. I have no idea what I will think when I’m done, so depending on what happens then, let’s either do podcast OR just writing–either will be fine. Now I have to just wait for the book to come in. :)

  443. @big,

    If you want to see Lu Xun’s criticizing of “middle way” thinking in the story of Ah Q, you will be disappointed. It is mostly in his numerous essays and a few short stories other than Ah Q.

    I don’t know if you have read the link I gave you here: http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/10/asian-men-black-men-and-the-competition-for-white-women/#comment-22615.
    It is a good summarizing of Lu’s thoughts, including on The Doctrine of the Mean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_of_the_Mean). Even though the translation is not that good (but better than the one about Doctrine_of_the_Mean), you probably can get some sense out of it.

    By the way, from the way Raguel talked about Lu Xun and Ah Q at the beginning of the discussion, I don’t think he has heard of Ah Q before you, and he still doesn’t get it. :) He may not even have heard of Lu Xun before.

  444. So Raguel,

    “狗眼看人低
    Tell us what that idiom means again?”

    How many times you have asked me to explain that idiom 狗眼看人低 to you and others? Is this the 4th or the 5th time?

    Didn’t I tellyou the first time when you tried to use it to insult me that you used it in a very wrong way which resulting you only making a fool of yourself ? (http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/10/asian-men-black-men-and-the-competition-for-white-women/#comment-22620)
    Is it because I didn’t bother to explain to you so you have been stupidly assume that I lied and you finally got me for once?

    Remember when you tried to use 一代不如一代 to insult me and Chinese people in China here:
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/10/asian-men-black-men-and-the-competition-for-white-women/#comment-22578,
    I explained to you what 一代不如一代 means, it won’t fit us, but only fit Singaporean like you?

    You just like Ah Q, never learn the lessons? I’ll explain to you now what 狗眼看人低 means this time so others can see what an Ah Q you are.

    狗(dog) 眼(eye) 看(see, look) 人(human, people, person) 低(low)

    Remember in Chinese, when you use 狗(dog) on people, it’s an insult. That idiom means “low class stupid dog underestimates human or see human as low as itself”. We use this idiom on stupid snobs who despise others for the superficial reasons like wealth, status, class, race, nationality, family background, etc. , acting like they are better in all areas but often show they are actually not at all.

    Look who is 狗眼看人低 now, me or you?

    You already realized that you have been “shitting on your own brothers” by calling them “fucking Chinese people”, saying “Chinese from mainland China are also considered to completely lack ethics, culture, higher morality and any shred of human empathy.” You also proved that yourself are the one who lack ethics, culture and morality by making bad tasted sexist joke to woman, being acting like Ah Q, pretending you know Lu Xun and Ah Q when you are actually not, contradicting yourself numerous time without any principle. You even lied when you said “all your guesses about me are completely off the mark”. Because if my guessing about you being in Singapore is wrong, then you lied in this post about the culture in the place you live http://www.bigwowo.com/2012/03/more-asian-americans-marrying-within-their-race/#comment-22466.

    Your despising of mainland Chinese is exactly 狗眼看人低.

  445. I don’t think most people really need to read Lu Xun’s The True Story of Ah Q to know what Ah Q is like. Most guys here lack the culture and history background, even if you read it, you may not be able to fully get it, especially if you can only read the English translation version.

    Our Raguel here seems so eager to play the live role of Ah Q, I just helped him a little bit so that my kids and others can see what a typical Ah Q is like.

    Remember I said before that Ah Q was ignorant, mean, stupid, forgetful, never admit or dare to face his own faults…. He often inflicted humiliation and beating upon himself by his own stupid actions, but never learned the lessons. He used “spiritual victories” to make peace with himself. I think people here have seen enough of Raguel’s this kind of behaviors.

  446. Very good Chinese Mom, you explained what is Kou Yan Kan Ren Ti( 狗眼看人低 ). Now for proper examples:

    1. Never finished a history book in her entire life, including the SMALL one in her middle school, but believes that few actual historians could disagree with her. Ends comments with “thanks for thinking so highly of me”.

    A PERFECT example of 狗眼看人低 KOU YAN KAN REN TI complete with the irony.

    There are more examples. By the end of the lesson the student will understand the meaning of KOU YAN KAN REN TI. 8)

  447. “We use this idiom on stupid snobs who despise others for the superficial reasons like wealth, status, class, race, nationality, family background, etc. , acting like they are better in all areas but often show they are actually not at all.”

    2. Only knows the ONE story from Lu Xun “The True Story of Ah Q” but thinks that it makes her an authority on Chinese CULTURE better than other people and that all other viewpoints are invalid.

    KOU YAN KAN REN TI

    狗眼看人低

    A LOUSY DOG’S eyes sees human beings as lower.

    to be continued. Have at least five or six examples.

  448. Rugual, why do you have to be so predictable? Every time I pushed the button, you will not only jump, but also jump in the exact way that I expected: Ah Q’s way —- spiritual victories. Don’t you know that silence is golden? Sigh. ….

    You seem haven’t got what狗眼看人低 means. Please read carefully what I wrote before:

    “We use this idiom on stupid snobs who despise others for the SUPERFICIAL reasons like wealth, status, class, race, nationality, family background, etc. , acting like they are better in all areas but often show they are actually not at all.”

    You despise Chinese from China for the SUPERFICIAL reason: nationality.
    You think you are better than us in areas of ethics, culture and morality.
    But you proved here that you are not better at all.
    So you are狗眼看人低.

    If you want to say that I am狗眼看人低 too. You have to show that I despise anybody for a SUPERFICIAL reason first, then prove that I am not actually better than the one I despise in the area that I think I am better.

    If you can’t do this, then you are using狗眼看人低 in the wrong way which will only make a fool of yourself.

  449. Enough has been said about Ah Q.

    Lastly, I would like to say that Ah Q’s “spiritual victories” isn’t always bad. I consider occasionally using this kind of “spiritual victories” to quell our anger and soothe the pain is actually a healthy thing to do.

  450. ————-
    Besides Confucianism, Chinese culture and the way of people’s thinking have also been deeply influenced by Confucius’ Doctrine of the Mean (moderation,I’ll simplify it as middle way thinking).

    The essence of Doctrine of the Mean philosophy is about finding the middle way. Zhang Dai-Nian (张岱年, a famous and well respected Contemporary Chinese philosopher) in the article Chinese Culture and Dialectical Thinking” wrote: “moderation concept contains “dialectics” (appropriated by Marx). Moderation has at least two senses: 1, acknowledging that when thing has changed to reach a certain extent, it will converse to the opposite; 2, asserting that we should avoid conversion by keeping things within the limits. The former is the dialectics, the latter is contrary to the dialectic.” This second point is the characteristics of this middle way thinking.

    This “middle way thinking” has some virtues, prevents us from going crazy for being an extremist. But it also made us often stop at middle when we need to go all the way, compromise when we shouldn’t. We don’t pursue perfection, don’t finish the job, don’t go deep to the absolute bottom, can’t do the deep and hard thinking, …… We can observe this kind of behavior everywhere in our daily life.

    This moderation thinking is probably one of the reasons that Chinese society had been so stable for 2000 years. The progresses of Western society are often the results of extremists or reformers going for the extreme, to get things right….., they don’t compromise. In China, we stop at the middle, we don’t want to offend anybody.

    I consider the moderation thinking is also one of the major reasons that we lost to the West in science and technology discoveries and inventions. The breakthroughs in science and technology are often the results of pursuing the perfection, the absolute truth, the bottom…… We have many important scientific discoveries way early than the West. A Chinese discovered the π and calculated it to the 6th digit after the decimal point in 6th century, more than a thousand years earlier than Europeans. But we didn’t go further, didn’t form the formula, make it into a theory or put it to use, and not body continued work. Many of the similar discoveries lost in the same ways.

    The moderation thinking made us not to say or make things clear, which give people the chance to pretend they know or good when they actually don’t. Chinese Qigong, traditional Chinese medicine theories and many books written in last 2000 years are so obscure that we hardly can understand it, which resulting we can’t tell the bad from the good, all up to people’s interpretation.
    …….

  451. For the sake of correctness I must say:

    Gou Yan Kan Ren Ti does not need the element of superficiality in it. Gou Yan Kan Ren Ti is a complete idiom by itself that needs no additional explanation. All the learner needs to understand is the representations possible from the four elements: a dog, seeing with its own eyes, a human being as somewhat “lower”. The main meaning in the idiom is the irony. This idiom is one of China’s thousand deadliest insults, capable of causing in other people anything from suicides, murder to complete mental breakdowns. That will end the cultural lesson for today.

    As for all those other accusations about my character, its quite obvious to everybody that is just a straw man being created.

    Now for the last bit: “Lastly, I would like to say that Ah Q’s “spiritual victories” isn’t always bad. I consider occasionally using this kind of “spiritual victories” to quell our anger and soothe the pain is actually a healthy thing to do.

    WAT

  452. ChineseMom:

    If I understand half of Ah Q, it’ll be worth it!

    “This moderation thinking is probably one of the reasons that Chinese society had been so stable for 2000 years. The progresses of Western society are often the results of extremists or reformers going for the extreme, to get things right….., they don’t compromise. In China, we stop at the middle, we don’t want to offend anybody.

    I consider the moderation thinking is also one of the major reasons that we lost to the West in science and technology discoveries and inventions. The breakthroughs in science and technology are often the results of pursuing the perfection, the absolute truth, the bottom…… We have many important scientific discoveries way early than the West. A Chinese discovered the π and calculated it to the 6th digit after the decimal point in 6th century, more than a thousand years earlier than Europeans. But we didn’t go further, didn’t form the formula, make it into a theory or put it to use, and not body continued work. Many of the similar discoveries lost in the same ways.”

    Gotta disagree 100%. I think the moderation thinking affects certain sports–stuff that depends on quick movement, physical risk-taking, and quick judging of outcomes. It does not affect anything that people tend to develop slowly. Indeed, even in the realm of sports, the Chinese are and have always been great weightlifters. I don’t think it affects science or math.

    I think you’ll like Guns, Germs, and Steel. In the book, Diamond talks about how writing (i.e. word for word writing) is a huge cultural outlier. The Phoenicians invented it independently, the Chinese MAY have invented it independently as well, and there may have been one other culture who did so. Everyone else copied it or created it based on learning the concept from someone else.

    Science and math are much the same. The Chinese discovered the Pythagorean relationship between the sides of a right triangle independently, but they never proved it through geometry. They inutitively knew it was true in all cases, but they couldn’t mathematically indicate why. The whole idea of wanting to know science simply for knowledge sake was probably similar to writing–if you don’t see any practical application, you’re not going to bother with it. And when it comes to how well your culture can even further develop mathematical principles as it happened during the Enlightenment, it comes down to organization: Do your people have access to education? Do they have enough to eat? Can they express ideas and get credit? Will they lose their lives after saying the wrong thing? Are there places where they can collaborate and borrow other ideas?

  453. @big,

    If you know more about Chinese culture and people, you will see that a lot of things that stopped at intuitive level, didn’t go any further.

    For example, this Pythagorean relationship you mentioned, it was documented in 九章算术 (Nine Chapter Math) book in Han Dynasty about 1800 years ago. was refined and annotated by 刘徽 (AD 225—295). That’s about it, we didn’t have any progress until Western science introduced in 19th century.

    I didn’t say that moderation thinking is the only reason that we were behind the West in science and technology, there are many reasons for that.

    I consider the initial breakthroughs in science in the West are very accidental, several factors happen to be together make it inevitable. First, they happen to have this Claudius Ptolemy guy and his geocentric model, then somehow this model happen to be adopted by the Church, which led to a lot of “crazy” educated priests with a lot of time to spend try to PERFECT that model and prove that Bible told the TRUTH by studying Astronomy, observing stars’ movements, which in turn led to Copernicus’ heliocentric theory and development of math, the rests are then just inevitable …… Correct me if I am wrong here, you know more about this than I do.

    In China, 九章算术 (Nine Chapter Math) is enough for measuring the land. We don’t have many people with a lot of time who do boring things just for the love of finding the truth. Monks in China was in a similar position as those priests in the West, but they were only interested in meditation. We also don’t have this Arabic numerals system until 100 years ago when science was introduced to China……

    Another difference I found between the West and China is that they tend to do things systematically and continuously, we do it individually and once in a while based.

  454. Great discussion folks. We might have veered from the original topic a bit but this has got to be one of the best I’ve come across. Are we going to hit 1000 posts?

    On this subject, no one has brought this up so far but I thought one of the biggest reasons why the West progressed technology-wise so much the last 600 years was because they were always beating the crap out of each other. War drives technology and mixes in competition and desperation.

  455. Haha…1000 posts would be a record, MMJames. Would love to see it though!

    Everyone here ought to read Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. If you choose not to read the whole thing, you can at least read the China chapter; he has an entire chapter devoted to the question of why China didn’t surpass the West! And yes, that was his main reason: China was under centralized control and there wasn’t the kind of war and competition that drives technology and innovation. Niall Ferguson piggybacked on this idea too.

    ChineseMom:

    The whole idea of science actually started much earlier, with guys like Socrates who made some crazy conjectures about matter but which started the whole questioning thing. They had some bizarre theories on why arrows flew, but it wasn’t so much the questions they asked but rather how they asked them–throwing out ideas and shooting down the ones that didn’t make sense through logical deconstruction. There were probably similar things going on in the Middle East, which is why words like algebra and algorithm have Arabic roots.

    Most great Western thinkers weren’t priests. (Mendel was a friar, but I can’t think of anyone else off the top of my head who worked in a church as a day job.) The priests didn’t do much. Inventing meditation and kung-fu, as Chinese monks did, is arguably a bigger contribution to humanity than anything the priests did, although I do agree it would be near impossible for the West to progress as it did without the historical role of the Judeo-Christian monotheistic religions.

    Instead most thinkers were sons of noblemen, politicians, merchants, and wealthy people who were sometimes religious only because of the culture they were born into. Guys like Descartes, Copernicus, Newton, da Vinci, Fermat, and all them were rich (except for Gauss who is famous for being born dirt-poor), which yes, gave them time to tinker around with ideas. So they were mostly of the leisure class, and their material comfort combined with their society’s thirst for knowledge gave them the time and motivation to create.

    As you said, China didn’t have as many people with time on their hands and endless resources. But that too is organizational. Having a system that allows at least some citizens to think and create (social mobility wasn’t so great in those days) is crucial to progress.

    By the way (and I’m pretty sure Jared Diamond mentioned this), it’s likely that China could have had access to Western science early on. The Chinese were exporting tea and silk, so the trade route existed. However, the Chinese either just weren’t interested or maybe had no infrastructure to absorb and use the knowledge.

    Another difference I found between the West and China is that they tend to do things systematically and continuously, we do it individually and once in a while based.

    Yes, it’s systems…which is organizational! If the institutions are strong–I believe–people will better be able to contribute their time into creating something big.

  456. I’m in one of those moods. ChineseMom, if you are interested in reading Guns, Germs, and Steel cover to cover, I will buy a copy (I can probably get it cheap) and mail it to you. I’m very confident that you will love it. Your son might like it too. Just e-mail me your mailing address if you are interested in reading it.

  457. I just found National Geographics did a documentary on Guns,Germs and Steel. Here’s part1 (of 3):

  458. At various times, elements of Chinese science and technology were at par or superior to their European counterparts. The periods where scientific knowledge and technological innovation flourished tended to coincide with political stability and wealth, the periods were technology and knowledge were lost coincided with relentless warfare and social oppression. But the tides of Chinese history has always been cyclical.

    Have a look at these articles:

    Seismograph: http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi324.htm
    http://www.china.org.cn/english/scitech/131762.htm

    Armillary sphere (look at East Asia section): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillary_sphere

    There are many more inventions.

  459. @big

    Thanks for the offer. I’ll get it next time when I order books from Amazon.

    Since you like the “organization”, so let’s have a brief review about Chinese history, then compare the organization and system between China and the West.

    ———-
    The followings are all from wiki:

    “The Xia Dynasty (Chinese: 夏朝; pinyin: Xià Cháo; Wade–Giles: Hsia-Ch’ao; IPA: [ɕiâ tʂʰɑ̌ʊ̯]; ca. 2070 – ca. 1600 BC) is the first dynasty in China to be described in ancient historical chronicles such as Bamboo Annals, Classic of History and Records of the Grand Historian. The dynasty was established by the legendary Yu the Great[1] after Shun, the last of the Five Emperors gave his throne to him. The Xia was later succeeded by the Shang Dynasty (1600–1046 BC).”

    “The Zhou Dynasty (1046–256 BC) (Chinese: 周朝; pinyin: Zhōu Cháo; Wade–Giles: Chou Ch’ao [tʂóʊ tʂʰɑ̌ʊ]) was a Chinese dynasty that followed the Shang Dynasty and preceded the Qin Dynasty. Although the Zhou Dynasty lasted longer than any other dynasty in Chinese history, the actual political and military control of China by the Ji (Chinese: 姬) family lasted only until 771 BC, a period known as the Western Zhou.
    During the Zhou Dynasty, the use of iron was introduced to China,[1] though this period of Chinese history produced what many[who?] consider the zenith of Chinese bronze-ware making. The dynasty also spans the period in which the written script evolved into its modern form with the use of an archaic clerical script that emerged during the late Warring States period.”

    “The Spring and Autumn Period (Chinese: s 春秋时代, t 春秋時代, p Chūn–Qiū Shídài) was a period in Chinese history that roughly corresponds to the first half of the Eastern Zhou Dynasty, which is reckoned to have existed from 771 until 476 BC (or by some authorities until 403 BC[1]) in the alluvial plain of the Yellow River, the Shandong Peninsula and the river valleys of the Huai and Han.[2] Its name comes from the Spring and Autumn Annals, a chronicle of the state of Lu between 722 and 479 BC, which tradition associates withConfucius. The period can also be further divided into three sub-periods:[3][4]
     Age of regional cultures (Early): 771–643, up to the death of Duke Huan of Qi
     Age of encroachments (Middle): 643–546, up to the peace conference between Jin and Chu
     Age of reforms (Late): 546–403, up to the partition of Jin

    During the Spring and Autumn period, China’s feudal system of fēngjiàn became largely irrelevant. The Zhou Dynasty kings held nominal power, but only had real control over a small royal demesne centered on their capital Luoyi[5] near modern-day Luoyang. During the early part of the Zhou Dynasty period, royal relatives and generals had been given control over fiefdoms in an effort to maintain Zhou authority over vast territory,[6] many of these broke up into smaller states when the dynasty weakened.

    The most important feudal princes (known later as the twelve vassals), met during regular conferences where important matters, such as military expeditions against foreign groups or offending nobles, were decided. During these conferences, one vassal leader was sometimes declaredhegemon (伯, bó; later, 霸, bà) and given leadership over the armies of all Zhou states.

    As the era unfolded, larger and more powerful states annexed or claimed suzerainty over smaller ones. By the 6th century BC, most small states had disappeared and only a few large and powerful principalities dominated China. Some southern states, such as Chu and Wu, claimed independence from the Zhou. Wars were undertaken to oppose some of these states (Wu and Yue).

    Amid the interstate power struggles, internal conflict was also rife: six elite landholding families waged war on each other in Jin; the Chen family was eliminating political enemies in Qi; and legitimacy of the rulers was often challenged in civil wars by various royal family members in Qin and Chu. Once all these powerful rulers had firmly established themselves within their respective dominions, the bloodshed focused more fully on interstate conflict in the Warring States Period, which began in 403 BC when the three remaining elite families in Jin – Zhao, Wei and Han – partitioned the state.”
    “The Warring States Period (simplified Chinese: 战国时代; traditional Chinese: 戰國時代; pinyin: Zhànguó Shídài), also known as the Era of Warring States, or the Warring Kingdoms period, covers the Iron Age period from about 475 BC to the reunification of China under the Qin Dynasty in 221 BC. It is nominally considered to be the second part of the Eastern Zhou Dynasty, following the Spring and Autumn Period, although the Zhou Dynasty ended in 256 BC, 35 years earlier than the end of the Warring States period. During these periods, the Chinese sovereign (king of the Zhou Dynasty) was merely a figurehead.”

    “The Qin Dynasty (Chinese: 秦朝; pinyin: Qín Cháo; Wade–Giles: Ch’in Ch’ao; IPA: [tɕʰǐn tʂʰɑ̌ʊ̯]) was the first imperial dynasty ofChina, lasting from 221 to 207 BC. The Qin state derived its name from its heartland of Qin, in modern-day Shaanxi. The strength of the Qin state was greatly increased by the legalist reforms of Shang Yang in the 4th century BC, during the Warring States Period. In the mid and late third century BC, the Qin accomplished a series of swift conquests, first ending the powerless Zhou Dynasty, and eventually destroying the remaining six states of the major states to gain control over the whole of China, resulting in a unified China.”
    “The dominant religious belief in China during the reign of the Qin, and, in fact, during much of early imperial China, was focused on the shen (roughly translating to “spirits”), yin (“shadows”), and the realm they were said to live in. The Chinese offered sacrifices[note 14] in an attempt to contact this other world, which they believed to be parallel to the earthly one. The dead were said to simply have moved from one world to the other. The rituals mentioned, as well as others, served two purposes: to ensure that the dead journeyed and stayed in the other realm, and to receive blessings from the spirit realm.[note 15][39][40]”

    “The Han Dynasty (simplified Chinese: 汉朝; traditional Chinese: 漢朝; pinyin: Hàn Cháo; Wade–Giles: Han Ch’ao; IPA: [xân tʂʰɑ̌ʊ̯]) (206 BCE – 220 CE) was the second imperial dynasty of China, preceded by the Qin Dynasty (221–207 BCE) and succeeded by the Three Kingdoms (220–280 CE). It was founded by the rebel leader Liu Bang, known posthumously as Emperor Gaozu of Han. It was briefly interrupted by the Xin Dynasty (9–23 CE) of the former regent Wang Mang. This interregnum separates the Han into two periods: the Western Han (206 BCE – 9 CE) and Eastern Han (25–220 CE). Spanning over four centuries, the period of the Han Dynasty is considered a golden age in Chinese history.[3] To this day, China’s majority ethnic group refers to itself as the “Han people” and Chinese characters are referred to as “Han characters”.[4]

    The Han Empire was divided into areas directly controlled by the central government, known as commanderies, and a number ofsemi-autonomous kingdoms. These kingdoms gradually lost all vestiges of their independence, particularly following the Rebellion of the Seven States. The Xiongnu, a nomadic confederation which dominated the eastern Eurasian Steppe,[5] defeated the Han army in battle in 200 BCE. Following the defeat, a political marriage alliance was negotiated in which the Han became the de factoinferior partner. When, despite the treaty, the Xiongnu continued to raid Han borders, Emperor Wu of Han (r. 141–87 BCE) launched several military campaigns against them. The ultimate Han victory in these wars eventually forced the Xiongnu to accept vassal status as Han tributaries. These campaigns expanded Han sovereignty into the Tarim Basin of Central Asia and helped establish the vast trade network known as the Silk Road, which reached as far as the Mediterranean world. Han forces managed to divide the Xiongnu into two competing nations, the Southern and Northern Xiongnu, and forced the Northern Xiongnu across theIli River. Despite these victories, the territories north of Han’s borders were quickly overrun by the nomadic Xianbei Confederation.

    After 92 CE, the palace eunuchs increasingly involved themselves in court politics, engaging in violent power struggles between the various consort clans of the empresses and empress dowagers, causing the Han’s ultimate downfall. Imperial authority was also seriously challenged by large Daoist religious societies which instigated the Yellow Turban Rebellion and the Five Pecks of Rice Rebellion. Following the death of Emperor Ling (r. 168–189 CE), the palace eunuchs suffered wholesale massacre by military officers, allowing members of the aristocracy and military governors to become warlords and divide the empire. When Cao Pi, King of Wei, usurped the throne from Emperor Xian, the Han Dynasty ceased to exist.
    The Han Dynasty was an age of economic prosperity and saw a significant growth of the money economy first established during the Zhou Dynasty (c. 1050–256 BCE). The coinage issued by the central government mint in 119 BCE remained the standard coinage of China until the Tang Dynasty (618–907 CE). To pay for its military campaigns and the settlement of newly conquered frontier territories, the government nationalized the private salt and iron industries in 117 BCE. These government monopolies were repealed during the Eastern Han period, and the lost revenue was recouped through heavily taxing private entrepreneurs. The emperor was at the pinnacle of Han society. He presided over the Han government but shared power with both the nobility and appointed ministers who came largely from the scholarly gentry class. From the reign of Emperor Wu onward, the Chinese court officially sponsored Confucianism in education and court politics, synthesized with the cosmology of later scholars such as Dong Zhongshu. This policy endured until the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1911 CE. Science and technology during the Han period saw significant advances, including papermaking, the nautical steering rudder, the use of negative numbers in mathematics, the raised-relief map, the hydraulic-powered armillary sphere for astronomy, and a seismometer employing an inverted pendulum. “

    Families throughout Han China made ritual sacrifices of animals and foodstuffs to deities, spirits, and ancestors at temples and shrines, in the belief that these items could be utilized by those in the spiritual realm.[144] It was thought that each person had a two-part soul: the spirit-soul (hun 魂) which journeyed to the afterlife paradise of immortals (xian), and the body-soul (po 魄) which remained in its grave or tomb on earth and was only reunited with the spirit-soul through a ritual ceremony.[145] These tombs were commonly adorned with uniquely decorated hollow clay tiles that function as a door to the tomb. Otherwise known as tomb tiles, these artifacts feature holes in the top and bottom of the title allowing it to pivot. Similar tiles have been found in the Chengdu area of Sichuan province in south-central China.[146]
    In addition to his many other roles, the emperor acted as the highest priest in the land who made sacrifices to Heaven, the main deities known as the Five Powers, and the spirits (shen 神) of mountains and rivers.[147] It was believed that the three realms of Heaven, Earth, and Mankind were linked by natural cycles of yin and yang and the five phases.[148] If the emperor did not behave according to proper ritual, ethics, and morals, he could disrupt the fine balance of these cosmological cycles and cause calamities such as earthquakes, floods, droughts, epidemics, and swarms of locusts.[149]

    It was believed that immortality could be achieved if one reached the lands of the Queen Mother of the West or Mount Penglai.[150] Han-era Daoists assembled into small groups of hermits who attempted to achieve immortality through breathing exercises, sexual techniques and use of medical elixirs.[151] By the 2nd century CE, Daoists formed large hierarchical religious societies such as the Way of the Five Pecks of Rice. Its followers believed that the sage-philosopher Laozi (fl. 6th century BCE) was a holyprophet who would offer salvation and good health if his devout followers would confess their sins, ban the worship of unclean gods who accepted meat sacrifices and chant sections of the Daodejing.[152]

    Buddhism first entered China during the Eastern Han and was first mentioned in 65 CE.[153] Liu Ying (d. 71 CE), a half-brother to Emperor Ming of Han (r. 57–75 CE), was one of its earliest Chinese adherents, although Chinese Buddhism at this point was heavily associated withHuang-Lao Daoism.[154] China’s first known Buddhist temple, the White Horse Temple, was erected during Ming’s reign.[155] Important Buddhist canons were translated into Chinese during the 2nd century CE, including the Sutra of Forty-two Chapters, Perfection of Wisdom,Shurangama Sutra, and Pratyutpanna Sutra.[156]

    (I put Three Kingdoms period here mostly because my son loved the Three Kingdoms game and fancied that he should be one of the King’s decendent)

    “The Three Kingdoms period (traditional Chinese: 三國時代; simplified Chinese: 三国时代; pinyin: Sānguó shídài) was a period in Chinese history, part of an era of disunity called the “Six Dynasties” following immediately the loss of de facto power of the Han Dynasty rulers. In a strict academic sense it refers to the period between the foundation of the state of Wei in 220 and the conquest of the state Wu by the Jin Dynasty in 280.  However, many Chinese historians and laymen extend the starting point of this period back to the Yellow Turban Rebellion in 184.

    The Three Kingdoms (traditional Chinese: 三國; simplified Chinese: 三国; pinyin: Sānguó) were Wei (魏), Shu (蜀), and Wu (吳). To further distinguish these states from other historical Chinese states of the same name, historians add a relevant character: Wei is also known as Cao Wei (曹魏), Shu is also known as Shu Han (蜀漢), and Wu is also known as Dong Wu or Eastern Wu (東吳). The term “Three Kingdoms” itself is something of a mistranslation, since each state was eventually headed not by kings, but by an emperor who claimed legitimate succession from the Han Dynasty. Although the translation “Three Empires” is more contextually accurate,[1] the term “Three Kingdoms” has become standard among sinologists.

    The earlier, “unofficial” part of the period, from 184 to 220, was marked by chaotic infighting between warlords in various parts of China. The middle part of the period, from 220 and 263, was marked by a more militarily stable arrangement between three rival states, Wei, Shu, and Wu.  The later part of this period was marked by the collapse of the tripartite situation: first the conquest of Shu by Wei (263), then the overthrow of Wei by the Jin Dynasty (265), and the destruction of Wu by Jin (280).
    Although relatively short, this historical period has been greatly romanticised in the cultures of China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam. It has been celebrated and popularised in operas, folk stories, novels and in more recent times, films, television, and video games.  The best known of these is Luo Guanzhong’s Romance of the Three Kingdoms, a Ming Dynasty historical novel based on events in the Three Kingdoms period. The authoritative historical record of the era is Chen Shou’s Records of the Three Kingdoms, along with Pei Songzhi’s later annotations of the text.

    The Three Kingdoms period was one of the bloodiest in Chinese history.  A population census during the late Eastern Han Dynasty reported a population of approximately 50 million, while a population census during the early Western Jin Dynasty reported a population of approximately 16 million.[2] However, the Jin Dynasty’s census was far less complete than the Han census, so these figures are in question.[citation needed]
    Technology advanced significantly during this period. Shu chancellor Zhuge Liang invented the wooden ox, suggested to be an early form of the wheelbarrow, and improved on the repeating crossbow. Wei mechanical engineer Ma Jun is considered by many to be the equal of his predecessor Zhang Heng. He invented a hydraulic-powered, mechanical puppet theatre designed for Emperor Ming of Wei, square-pallet chain pumps for irrigation of gardens in Luoyang, and the ingenious design of the South Pointing Chariot, a non-magnetic directional compass operated by differential gears.”

    (The rest of Dynasties are kind of boring except Tang. I think Japanese’s culture is rooted in Tang’s culture. A lot of stuff in Japan today still have Tang’s flavor.)

    “The Tang Dynasty (Chinese: 唐朝; pinyin: Táng Cháo; IPA: [tʰɑ̌ŋ tʂʰɑ̌ʊ]; Middle Chinese: dhɑng) (June 18, 618 – June 1, 907) was an imperial dynasty of China preceded by the Sui Dynasty and followed by the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period. It was founded by the Li (李) family, who seized power during the decline and collapse of the Sui Empire. The dynasty was interrupted briefly by the Second Zhou Dynasty (October 8, 690 – March 3, 705) when Empress Wu Zetian seized the throne, becoming the first and only Chinese empress regnant, ruling in her own right.

    The Tang Dynasty, with its capital at Chang’an (present-day Xi’an), which at the time was the most populous city in the world, is generally regarded as a high point in Chinese civilization—equal to, or surpassing that of, the earlier Han Dynasty—a golden age of cosmopolitan culture. Its territory, acquired through the military campaigns of its early rulers, was greater than that of the Han period, and it rivalled that of the later Yuan Dynasty and Qing Dynasty. In two censuses of the 7th and 8th centuries, the Tang records estimated the population by number of registered households at about 50 million people.[2][3][4]a[›] Yet, even when the central government was breaking down and unable to compile an accurate census of the population in the 9th century, it is estimated that the population had grown by then to about 80 million people.[5][6] With its large population base, the dynasty was able to raise professional and conscripted armies of hundreds of thousands of troops to contend with nomadic powers in dominating Inner Asia and the lucrative trade routes along the Silk Road. Various kingdoms and states paid tribute to the Tang court, while the Tang also conquered or subdued several regions which it indirectly controlled through a protectorate system. Besides political hegemony, the Tang also exerted a powerful cultural influence over neighboring states such as those in Korea, Japan, and Vietnam.
    The Tang Dynasty was largely a period of progress and stability, except during the An Shi Rebellion and the decline of central authority in the latter half of the dynasty. Like the previous Sui Dynasty, the Tang Dynasty maintained a civil service system bydrafting officials through standardized examinations and recommendations to office. This civil order was undermined by the rise of regional military governors known as jiedushi during the 9th century. Chinese culture flourished and further matured during the Tang era; it is considered the greatest age for Chinese poetry.[7] Two of China’s most famous poets, Li Bai and Du Fu, belonged to this age, as did many famous painters such as Han Gan, Zhang Xuan, and Zhou Fang. There was a rich variety of historical literature compiled by scholars, as well as encyclopedias and geographical works.

    There were many notable innovations during the Tang, including the development of woodblock printing. Buddhism became a major influence in Chinese culture, with native Chinese sects gaining prominence. However, Buddhism would later be persecuted by the state and decline in influence. Although the dynasty and central government were in decline by the 9th century, art and culture continued to flourish. The weakened central government largely withdrew from managing the economy, though the country’s mercantile affairs stayed intact and commercial trade continued to thrive regardless.”

    “Since ancient times, the Chinese believed in a folk religion that incorporated many deities. The Chinese believed that the afterlife was a reality parallel to the living world, complete with its own bureaucracy and afterlife currency needed by dead ancestors.[210] Funerary practices included providing the deceased with everything they might need in the afterlife, including animals, servants, entertainers, hunters, homes, and officials. This ideal is reflected in Tang dynasty art.[109] This is also reflected in many short stories written in the Tang about people accidentally winding up in the realm of the dead, only to come back and report their experiences.[210]

    Buddhism, originating in India around the time of Confucius, continued to flourish during the Tang period and was adopted by the imperial family, becoming thoroughly sinicized and a permanent part of Chinese traditional culture. In an age before Neo-Confucianism and figures such as Zhu Xi (1130–1200), Buddhism had begun to flourish in China during the Southern and Northern Dynasties, and became the dominant ideology during the prosperous Tang. Buddhist monasteries played an integral role in Chinese society, offering lodging for travelers in remote areas, schools for children throughout the country, and a place for urban literati to stage social events and gatherings such as going-away parties.[211] Buddhist monasteries were also engaged in the economy, since their land property and serfs gave them enough revenues to set up mills, oil presses, and other enterprises.[212][213][214] Although the monasteries retained ‘serfs’, these monastery dependents could actually own property and employ others to help them in their work, including their own slaves.[215]

    The prominent status of Buddhism in Chinese culture began to decline as the dynasty and central government declined as well during the late 8th century to 9th century. Buddhist convents and temples that were exempt from state taxes beforehand were targeted by the state for taxation. In 845 Emperor Wuzong of Tang finally shut down 4,600 Buddhist monasteries along with 40,000 temples and shrines, forcing 260,000 Buddhist monks and nuns to return to secular life;[28][216] this episode would later be dubbed one of the Four Buddhist Persecutions in China. Although the ban would be lifted just a few years after, Buddhism never regained its once dominant status in Chinese culture.[28][216][217][218] This situation also came about through new revival of interest in native Chinese philosophies, such as Confucianism and Daoism. Han Yu (786–824)—who Arthur F. Wright stated was a “brilliant polemicist and ardent xenophobe”—was one of the first men of the Tang to denounce Buddhism.[219] Although his contemporaries found him crude and obnoxious, he would foreshadow the later persecution of Buddhism in the Tang, as well as the revival of Confucian theory with the rise of Neo-Confucianism of the Song Dynasty.[219] Nonetheless, Chán Buddhism gained popularity amongst the educated elite.[28] There were also many famous Chan monks from the Tang era, such as Mazu Daoyi, Baizhang, and Huangbo Xiyun. The sect of Pure Land Buddhism initiated by the Chinese monk Huiyuan (334–416) was also just as popular as Chan Buddhism during the Tang.[220]

    Rivaling Buddhism was Daoism, a native Chinese philosophical and religious belief system that found its roots in the book of the Daodejing(attributed to Laozi in the 6th century BC) and the Zhuangzi. The ruling Li family of the Tang Dynasty actually claimed descent from the ancient Laozi.[222] On numerous occasions where Tang princes would become crown prince or Tang princesses taking vows as Daoist priestesses, their lavish former mansions would be converted into Daoist abbeys and places of worship.[222] Many Daoists were associated with alchemy in their pursuits to find an elixir of immortality and a means to create gold from concocted mixtures of many other elements.[223] Although they never achieved their goals in either of these futile pursuits, they did contribute to the discovery of new metal alloys, porcelain products, and new dyes.[223] The historian Joseph Needham labeled the work of the Daoist alchemists as “proto-science rather than pseudo-science.”[223] However, the close connection between Daoism and alchemy, which some sinologists have asserted, is refuted by Nathan Sivin, who states that alchemy was just as prominent (if not more so) in the secular sphere and practiced more often by laymen.[224]

    The Tang Dynasty also officially recognized various foreign religions. The Assyrian Church of the East, otherwise known as the Nestorian Christian Church, was given recognition by the Tang court. In 781, the Nestorian Stele was created in order to honor the achievements of their community in China. A Christian monastery was established in Shaanxi province where the Daqin Pagoda still stands, and inside the pagoda there is Christian-themed artwork. Although the religion largely died out after the Tang, it was revived in China following the Mongol invasions of the 13th century.[225]”

    Qing was the last dynasty. Mighty civilized China was conquered and ruled by “barbarian” Manchu for 300 year.

    “The Qing Dynasty was the last dynasty of China, ruling from 1644 to 1912 with a brief, abortive restoration in 1917. It was preceded by the Ming Dynasty and followed by the Republic of China.

    The dynasty was founded by the Jurchen Aisin Gioro clan in contemporary Northeastern China. The Aisin Gioro leader, Nurhachi, who was originally a vassal of the Ming emperors, began unifying the Jurchen clans in the late sixteenth century. By 1635, Nurhachi’s son Hong Taiji could claim they constituted a single and united Manchu people and began forcing the Ming out ofLiaoning in southern Manchuria. In 1644, the Ming capital Beijing was sacked by a peasant revolt led by Li Zicheng, a former minor Ming official who became the leader of the peasant revolt, who then proclaimed the Shun dynasty. The last Ming ruler, theChongzhen Emperor, committed suicide when the city fell. When Li Zicheng moved against Ming general Wu Sangui, the latter made an alliance with the Manchus and opened the Shanhai Pass to the Manchurian army. Under Prince Dorgon, they seized control of Beijing and overthrew Li Zicheng’s short-lived Shun Dynasty. Complete pacification of China was accomplished around 1683 under the Kangxi Emperor.”

  460. Followed Qing Dynasty is The Republic of China, which is still exist but only in Taiwan province.

    “The Republic of China (中華民國) (ROC) is the official name of the republic now commonly known as “Taiwan” which was founded on mainland China in 1912 and whose government was located there until 1949, when it was forced out and moved to Taiwan after the Chinese Civil War. It was founded by Dr. Sun Yat-sen and his Kuomintang (KMT or Chinese Nationalist Party) during the Xinhai Revolution, during which the Qing Dynasty was overthrown and China’s imperial system was abolished, and arepublic was established, which was the first in Asia.[1] The state ruled parts of mainland China in an effort to unite other regions of China into one unified country. However, the Chinese Civil War broke out in 1927 between the KMT and the Chinese Communists, which ended with Communist victory and forced the KMT-led ROC government to flee to the island of Taiwan in 1949, where the it remained and subsequently the country became known commonly as “Taiwan” after the island which composes most of its current territory.”

    This part of wiki isn’t accurate on the claim that “the Chinese Civil War broke out in 1927 between the KMT and the Chinese Communists”.

    This period of China was very chaotic. After Qing broke up, China was ruled by war lords in various parts of China. Chiang kai-shek led KMT and its army beat most of the warlords in Northern Expedition from 1926 to 1928, unified China under the ROC’s name and his government, but he didn’t gain the full control of the territories under those warlords and their army.

    Chinese Communist party (CCP) was founded in 1921 by New Culture Movement leader Chen Du Xiu. The CCP led by Chen Du Xiu followed a lot of the instructions from the Communist International (Comnitern). Under the instruction of Comnitern, most (if not all) of CCP member in cities joined KMT too, they were supposed to cooperate with KMT, work in the city to lead factory worker’s movements, hopefully one day they could take over the power like CCP did in Russia (they forgot that unlike Russia, China was a country of peasants). But Chiang kai-shek killed and arrested a lot of those CCP members in KMT around 1927, forced CCP go underground. Under this situation, Mao took over the leadership of CCP, led CCP concentrate their work in rural countryside in several provinces to build Soviet Republic. CCP led peasants overthrown the landlord, took over the power, landlords’ property and land, some times killed the landlord (revolution was brutal), and reform the countryside. After the Northern Expedition in 1928 and stabilized government, Chiang kai-shek started crushing down on the CCP and Soviet Republic by force. Mao, ccp and their small Red army of peasants had to flee. They were finally driven to the barren town Yan An in ShanXi province in 1935. This trip is the famed 10,000 mile Long March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_March ).

    1928 to 1937 is considered Golden 10 years of ROC. The country is relatively stable and developing, life is relatively good at most parts of the country. All this changed when Japan invaded China in full force at 1937(they actually already occupied northeastern China in 1931). So you should know by now why all Chinese hate Japan.

    When Anti-Japanese war end at 1945, KMT began to takeover the territories occupied
    by Japan. CCP also came out of Yan An, trying to take over controls of some of the places after Japanese left. During the Anti-Japanese war, all China was united under Chiang kai-shek led KMT, including CCP. So after the war, they wanted power. The all out civil war between CCP and KMT began in 1947, ended in 1949 when Chiang kai-shek led KMT flee to Tai Wan. In 4 year, CCP grew from a peasants army in small town Yan An, beat 8million US supported and armed KMT army, took over China and established PRC.

  461. @big,

    “Yes, it’s systems…which is organizational! If the institutions are strong–I believe–people will better be able to contribute their time into creating something big”.

    The West do things systematically not only on organizations or institution level, they do things this way in every thing. It’s a methodology. See those economic models, physics models, law, …. they somehow have this training and tradition of building things from small bricks, piece by piece into a big building. If one person or generation can not finish, other people will be able to continue. It is a way of thinking and doing things.

  462. On institution level, I consider two major things that prevented China from the advancement in Science and technology: Confucianism and Imperial examinations.

    Imperial examinations started in Sui Dynasty (589-618) and perfected in Tang (618 – 907) following it.

    (from wiki)
    Imperial examinations
    Main article: Imperial examination
    Following the Sui Dynasty’s example, the Tang abandoned the nine-rank system in favor of a large civil service system.[28] Students of Confucian studies were potential candidates for the imperial examinations, the graduates of which could be appointed as state bureaucrats in the local, provincial, and central government. There were two types of exams that were given, mingjing (‘illuminating the classics examination’) and jinshi (‘presented scholar examination’).[29] The mingjing was based upon the Confucian classics, and tested the student’s knowledge of a broad variety of texts.[29] The jinshi tested a student’s literary abilities in writing essay-style responses to questions on matters of governance and politics, as well as their skills in composing poetry.[30] Candidates were also judged on their skills of deportment, appearance, speech, and level of skill in calligraphy, all of which were subjective criteria that allowed the already wealthy members of society to be chosen over ones of more modest means who were unable to be educated in rhetoric or fanciful writing skills.[31] There was a disproportionate number of civil officials coming from aristocratic as opposed to non-aristocratic families.[31] The exams were open to all male subjects whose fathers were not of the artisan or merchant classes,[32] although having wealth or noble status was not a prerequisite in receiving a recommendation.[31] In order to promote widespread Confucian education, the Tang government established state-run schools and issued standard versions of the Five Classics with selected commentaries.[21]
    This competitive procedure was designed to draw the best talent into government. But perhaps an even greater consideration for the Tang rulers, aware that imperial dependence on powerful aristocratic families and warlords would have destabilizing consequences, was to create a body of career officials having no autonomous territorial or functional power base. The Tang law code ensured equal division of inherited property amongst legitimate heirs, allowing a bit of social mobility and preventing the families of powerful court officials in becoming landed nobility through primogeniture.[33] As it turned out, these scholar-officials acquired status in their local communities and in family ties, while they also shared values that connected them to the imperial court. From Tang times until the end of the Qing Dynasty in 1912, scholar-officials functioned often as intermediaries between the grassroots level and the government. Yet the potential of a widespread examination system was not fully realized until the Song Dynasty, where the merit-driven scholar official largely shed his aristocratic habits and defined his social status through the examination system.[34][35][36] As historian Patricia Ebrey states of the Song period scholar-officials:
    The examination system, used only on a small scale in Sui and Tang times, played a central role in the fashioning of this new elite. The early Song emperors, concerned above all to avoid domination of the government by military men, greatly expanded the civil service examination system and the government school system.

    to be continued

  463. Let me just make a helpful suggestion,

    Chinese Mom, when you are posting something that other people write, just post the LINK here, so we can easily go to the original site to read the contents. The format of this blog’s comments section is not so good for discussion, long text is difficult to scroll down and reference.

    The space has to be reserved for the original thoughts and words of our readers. So maybe, post the link to the article, and then just tell us what you think. Otherwise I think it will be difficult for us to follow your train of thoughts.

  464. (Continued)

    I recommended an article about Confucius moderation thinking’s influence on Chinese ethics, virtues, moralities and values here: http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/10/asian-men-black-men-and-the-competition-for-white-women/#comment-22636.

    The article was written by Chinese traditional culture scholar Yuan Ji-Xi. It can be summarized as following:

    The core of the culture (ie. The value system which includes ethics, virtues, moralities and values) in the West was controlled by the religion, while in China, it is designated by the Confucianism based secular ethics. The royal rule of China’s feudal society was built on patriarchal kinship kingdom and ritual culture of the Xia, Shang and Zhou Dynasty. Kinship decided the class and rank, which showed in rituals. As China’s political structure and class relations were built from kinship, the corresponding Chinese cultural value system inevitable would promote the respect of the rituals. In Western culture, religion enforces the ethics and moralities, while in China, it is the doctrine of means, which basically is self-restraint, no “absolute command” control like religion.

    Because our ethics and morality were built on moderation, self-restraint and self-consciousness, which made our bottom line for ethics and morality easy to change. So when the society is stable and values system strong, people will follow the moral rules. Once society is facing unrest and chaos, or political system lost authority, society’s moral bottom line will collapse. Because of this, during the Song Dynasty (960 and 1279), scholars modified Confucianism, tried to make it like religion, and they succeeded in a large extent.

    Another Chinese scholar 章太炎(Zhang Tai- Yan, 1869-1936) said that the shortcoming of Western religious is its suppression on people’s freedom of thinking, while the shortcoming of Confucianism is its making ideological confusion, because it so hard to find the right balance that people would just take the easy way out.

    (to be continued)

  465. There is a period in Chinese history that we tried to beat the crap out of each other which drove everything in competition and desperation, like what MMJames said that had driven the advancement of technology in the West. It is the Spring and Autumn period and the Warring States period (春秋戰國時代/春秋战国时代) from 770 to 221 BC. Chinese culture was flourished during this time.

    “The Hundred Schools of Thought (simplified Chinese: 诸子百家; traditional Chinese: 諸子百家; pinyin: zhūzǐ bǎijiā; Wade–Giles: chu-tzu pai-chia; literally “all philosophers hundred schools”) were philosophers and schools that flourished from 770 to 221 BC during theSpring and Autumn period and the Warring States period (春秋戰國時代/春秋战国时代), an era of great cultural and intellectual expansion in China.[1] Even though this period was fraught with chaos and bloody battles, it is also known as the Golden Age of Chinese philosophy because a broad range of thoughts and ideas were developed and discussed freely. This phenomenon has been called the Contention of a Hundred Schools of Thought (百家爭鳴/百家争鸣; bǎijiā zhēngmíng; pai-chia cheng-ming; “hundred schools contend”). The thoughts and ideas discussed and refined during this period have profoundly influenced lifestyles and social consciousness up to the present day in East Asian countries. The intellectual society of this era was characterized by itinerant scholars, who were often employed by various state rulers as advisers on the methods of government, war, and diplomacy. This period ended with the rise of the Qin Dynasty and the subsequent purge of dissent.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Schools_of_Thought)

    Confucianism, Taoism, Yin/Yang theory, the book The Art of War (Every AMs should read this book. Good for business strategy, office politics, deal with people…) , etc., are all from this period. I don’t think we made much progress in areas of philosophy and thoughts since then.

  466. Interesting stuff. It’s a lot of reading, but I’ll check it out later.

    By the way, how does Japanese and Korean Confucianism compare with Chinese Confucianism? Japan and Korea are arguably much more Confucian than Chinese, but they still dominate in combat sports, and Japanese mathematicians have made amazing discoveries.

  467. @big,

    Japanese inherited Chinese culture from Tang, before Song when Confucianism was made more strict like a religion. I don’t know when Korea adopted Confucianism, probably later.

  468. Before continue talking about Chinese culture, I would like fist to say something about how Confucianism and moderation thinking might have affected on AMs and AFs.

    For a person to be strong and trust worthy, he/she needs to have a relatively strong identity, a clear bottom line for where he/she stands, what he/she believes in, …., and stands up to fight for what he/she want or when his bottom line is in danger.

    For a person to have a clear bottom line, to know his strengths, weaknesses, and individual uniqueness, he needs to experience life, to go through the “moratorium” stage to explore, then make the commitment to reach “identity achievement”. (http://social.jrank.org/pages/322/Identity-Development.html)

    For a grown man to be able to stand up, he needs to be taught and encouraged to do so, to learn from success and failure since when he was little.

    AAs from traditionally strict families weren’t encouraged to experience the life. Filial piety made many Asian parents think they own their kids and not let kids have their own wills and sense of selves.

    Moderation thinking made Asian parents tend not to teach, encourage or allow their kids to stand up to fight for anything. If a child does not get use to stand up, it will be hard for him to do so when he grows up, unless he consciously knows this is his weakness and wants to improve.

  469. Next, I would like to talk a little about the history of Confucianism in China.

    “The philosophy of Confucius emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness of social relationships, justice, and sincerity. His followers competed successfully with many other schools during the Hundred Schools of Thought era only to be suppressed in favor of the Legalists during the Qin Dynasty. Following the victory of Han over Chu after the collapse of Qin, Confucius’s thoughts received official sanction and were further developed into a system known as Confucianism.” ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius)

  470. Confucius (孔子,Kong Zi) was a thinker and teacher, said to have been born in 551 BC at the end of Spring and Autumn Period.

    I think in many ways he was kind of like Jesus. He taught, traveled and had many followers and students. He was said to have over 3000 students and 72 sage followers. He served Lu’s ruler for several year, then was forced to leave. He traveled with some of his students to many of the states after he left Lu, lobbied rulers to accept his philosophy and tried to be their adviser. They all ignored him. During his traveling, there were many times he was humiliated, ridiculed or even life was threatened…. Probably because he traveled so much, his ideas got spread.

    Mencius ( 孟子, Meng Zi) was another big contributor to Confucianism after Confucius himself. He and Confucius are often together being called 孔孟(KongMeng). He was a thinker and philosopher of Warring States Period . Like Confucius, he traveled with his students around the states, tried to lobby those rulers to accept his idea, but wasn’t successful.

    In early Han Dynasty, Dong Zhongshu (董仲舒, 179–104 BC), a thinker, philosopher, and imperial advisor, advised Emperor Wu of Han(汉武帝) to only honor Confucianism and ignore other Schools of Thought. His proposal was sanctioned by the Emperor, and Confucianism became the ruling ideology in Chinese culture since then.

    Zhu Xi, (朱熹, 1130.9.15~1200.4.23) , a distinguished thinker, philosopher, teacher, poet and Confucian scholar of Song Dynasty, was considered contributed most to Confucianism after Confucius and Mencius. He further strengthened three principles & five virtues [三纲五常: three principles are ruler to ruled, father to son, husband to wife, the five virtues are Ren (仁, Humaneness), Yi (義, Righteousness or Justice), Li (禮, Propriety or Etiquette), Zhi (智, Knowledge), Xin (信, Integrity
    )], advocated “honoring heavenly principles, suppressing human desires (存天理、灭人欲)”. He believed that humans always have variety of desires, which made them could not understand the heavenly principles because they confused by their desires, so they had to suppress their desires to get the truth.

    Zhu’s philosophy wasn’t accepted officially at his time but honored by two Song emperors after his death. The contents of his books were tested in an imperial exam at Yuan Dynasty at 1313 and became a standard format since then. So when the West started Renaissance and loosen up the control of people’s mind. We began to strengthen the control of people’s thinking.

  471. (continued)

    This “honoring heavenly principles, suppressing human desires (存天理、灭人欲)” made Confucianism strict like religion. Because it was still largely based on moderation and not a check and balance system, it was actually a lot easier for those in higher position to be a bully and not be afraid of retribution, “仁”( REN, humanness, kindness) and “义”(YI,justice) didn’t get promoted at all in that sense. The end results were that it only made women be more obedient to men, and people be more obedient to parents, seniors, authorities and anybody higher in rank like a conviction.

    Because of the religion like of Confucianism that suppressed any free thinking of people since they were baby, in addition to the cruelty and oppressiveness of Qing Dynasty, at the end of Qing, people became numb, callous, and dastardly like being portrait in Lu Xun’s numerous stories.

  472. @big,

    So now if we compare China to the West, emperor to people in China was like God or Jesus in Western countries, Confucianism was like Christianity.

    The West inherited Aristotelian logic, astronomy, mathematics and Ptolemy from Egyptians and Greeks. The Church, even though it suppressed people’s thinking, founded many universities which helped to educate people and to cumulate the knowledge. I once read a book, it was impressed me that at Copernicus’s time, many people, especially a lot of Catholic priests and clergies were trying to verify Ptolemy’s geocentric model by observing stars movements, which led to the advancement of math and astronomy. Nicholas of Cusa, Copernicus and Bruno are not only mathematicians and astronomers, but also a Cardinal, a Catholic canon and a Dominican friar respectively.

    In China, we first have the official sanction of Confucianism in Han which basically eliminated competition of ideological ideas and thoughts. Then the imperial examination system since Tang made smart people from all classes pursue fame and status by studying and memorizing old books. Once a person passed the exam, he would be appointed a position in government as an official. I think this is probably the major reason that Chinese culture peaked at Tang. 200 years after Tang, we have Zhu Xi who religionized Confucianism, which was adopted by the imperial authorities later, we then on an inevitable downward spiral. People with time, education and resourced were devoted to serve emperors or in Buddhist temple. Even if we had access to Western science, there was no way that it would interest people. It is organizational, but also cultural.

  473. Sorry ChineseMom,

    I’m way behind and brain-dead this week. I’ll come back for real next week. Also, my copy of Ah Q should be arriving. :)

    I think there’s a difference between Chinese and Korean/Japanese when it comes to moderation thinking. I don’t think Korean and Japanese culture believes in it as much. Look at Miyamoto Musashi and the samurai culture. My favorite quote by him is: “The Way of the Warrior is resolute acceptance of death.” So even with Confucianism, they have managed to not have that moderation thing get in the way.

  474. @big,

    I’m not sure about Japan and Korea.

    I read some Japanese manga that my son and daughter liked. I was surprised to find that there are so many similarities between Japanese and Chinese society and people. But there are also differences. Japanese are more in common with traditional Chinese (before Mao era).

    I think Japanese are moderate in many ways, but they also have Bushido, the samurai culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushido). Bushido made them not afraid of death and willing to fight to death, we saw this during the war and the suicide that Japanese men committed when their business failed. But in daily interaction with people, they are still very moderate and restraining. Their whole society seems to me are built on self-restraint, except in sex.

    Korean culture was influenced by both Chinese and Japanese culture.

  475. I’m really sad that I couldn’t get to this post when it was around 70 or so comments. I’m enjoying the conversation, or the first 50, about 30 of the middle, and the last 40 (scattered). It makes me want to take an Asian history class.
    OK, that’s all. Please continue. :)

  476. Haha! Thanks, Anna!

    Well, I just picked up Ah Q today from the bookstore (had to special order it). It’s funny because according to the copyright, the entire thing was downloaded from the internet. I coulda gotten it for free! Man, WOWO got ripped off!

    Anyway, I’ve started reading it, although I’m working on another book at the same time. Will probably do a front page post on it very soon.

  477. Pingback: The True Story of Ah Q by Lu Xun (Discussion/Review) | bigWOWO

  478. Hey guys

    Sorry to cut in.

    I have often said that the Western Media historically does not like “normal” Chinese men (i.e. save for (yawn) martial artists) but that as it became economically expedient for Western media to become more inclusive, that we would see more.

    The tide has changed. This guy is the first fully Chinese guy I have seen on the telly in the UK with his own show.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Fong

  479. Countries like the UK and US have had a steady inflow of diaspora over several decades who have contributed greatly to the advancement of science and western society. So why only now, and to what extent?

    The extent will be only as far as these same Chinese faces buy into and promote the western ideal. There will be no room for dissent or questions, most importantly no room for initiatives to be taken without the permission of white networks.

    Is this a good sign, yes it is. But it’s really not the level by which we should be satisfied.

  480. I agree Rag.

    Kevin is obviously a brainy expert and I think that that was what got him the gig.

    I will be more impressed when a Chinese guy gets a decent gig on TV (and film) without having to be have (and this is just my perception) interesting features like super brainy (Kevin) being gay (Gok Wan) or more genetically acceptable (only half Chinese – there is some half Chinese Malaysian scientist with a Brit accent who gets gigs – I think his name is James Wong). Basically, full Chinese, normal and not a martial artist.

    Sorry to be a bit random but just couple of other observations gleaned in recent days.

    I went out with a white girl (just a mate) and her attractive blonde friendette came with her British brought up Chinese boyfriend. Apparently, she is fighting to stay with him because everytime she goes to his parent’s house, they are horrible to her. Shameful and horrid. Once you make a decision to emigrate, you should be willing to embrace and contribute to whatever nation you go to.

    Anyway, I went out last night and met some nice ladies – yeah they were white cos I live in England (sorry about that) – and to be honest I don’t think they had on their minds “He is Chinese – I am not interested in him.” or anything. (Maybe ” He is a bit older than me” hehe).

    I do notice that young (even British Born Chinese) guys have certain commonalities. Like light/laid back/non imposing and you can chill with them. And also the way that they speak (there is a difference with say white speakers – I have twice got cold calls from girls with an English accent who I knew to be ethnic Chinese (and yes, I did try to chat them up)) by the way that they mouthed their words. Does anyone else have that experience? I wonder whether these very almost imperceptible differences are noticed by white females? Perhaps in the States, they are given a more negative connotation which is not noticed so much in the UK?

    My mum was telling me recently how Chinese fellahs in the 60’s were often with white women but she used to laugh because they were not as attractive as the white women that black guys went out with. She also said that Chinese men in those days were more “masculine” than Chinese young men today. For instance Uncle C who was on the pull all the time. He was a would be gangster and as I recall with a bit of a teddy boy quiff. He has two sons of nearly the same age by two different white women. A bit of a cheeky chappy.

    Sorry to lower the intellectual tone – just recent observations.

  481. Yes Ste, I also notice that some American born Chinese (men and women) have this subtle accent that seems unique to American born Asians. I don’t know why, may be due to the differences in biological structure?

  482. I think it may be due to first language spoken as a baby and also shape of the mouth also.

    I notice that the rhythm of the speech of BBC’s is quite similar. However, when I speak, I think that I am much more English and this (as alluded to above) may be due to having English people being me up. Plus I didn’t have in my late teens many Chinese friends because of where we lived.

    People that know me tell me that they are not really concious that I am Chinese and the same with a proportion of people that are strangers. Some are surprised that I am 100 per cent Chinese and suggest that I am “English really” which of course I do not consider that I am. However, I wonder whether the closer similarity that I have to the English than other BBC’s may explain why someone like me would be more integrated in English society. Same with my brother.

    The irony is that I am also more Chinese than some BBC’s in that I prefer to speak my own dialect rather than English.

  483. What you said is interesting here because I noticed similar things over my years in America. Some of the young ABCs that I met years ago didn’t make me realize they are Chinese or Asian at all until much later. Their facial features are Asian but somehow I thought they were mix blood at beginning, even one of them can speak perfect Mandarin. Now I think of that, they were all kind of physically strong and imposing, very Americanized, seemed only socialize with non asians. May be you are this kind of guy too?

  484. @ChineseMom

    I used to have a lot of Chinese friends growing up but in my teens my parents moved to an area which was upper middle class and very English. I went to a well known grammar school and at the time was more regional British (with a regional accent) but then became “posher” if you like. Also the profession that I went into in London.

    I am quite English, yes. Why deny it. I don’t have a bit of a regional accent which comes and goes depending on the people that I speak to. I listen to Radio 4 and love it. I have a close working class friend and she finds me a bit bizarre in that respect. She puts on “Heart FM” when we are in the car but I am happy with Radio 4.

    But in terms of being Chinese, I think I am more Chinese than most. I refuse to speak English unless I have to and am proud of my dialect (very small ethnic group – not many of us) . I don’t know much Mandarin. But lots of white people know Mandarin and I often joke that it is not your ability to speak Mandarin (presumably for economic prospects) that makes you Chinese, but your ability in dialects. It’s a bit of jesting really. I have had to really struggle to assert my identity as a Chinese person. Even Chinese would mock me as a “gwai zai” growing up. I wanted to slap them. Just because I can’t speak Cantonese doesn’t make me English.

    My dad was very masculine and I think some of it rubbed off on me. I also have an “off the scale” reading on testerone levels (was tested). I like working on the garden but am useless at real manly stuff like building/ cars (can do basic things).

    The person that you are thinking of is actually my brother. He can’t speak any dialects and is very, very English. (As in military) Done very well in his career. Incredibly intelligent and a bit of an Alpha male. And guess what – married to a white woman. He has that Chinese work ethic thing and fits in to white society very well. I don’t have the ethic and I think white people find me a bit impassioned, which is a bit of a problem. I find it difficult to keep my mouth shut when I don’t like something and (this is stupid) often will have a go at people more powerful than me. (For instance I recently met a Tory MP who I had fancied for years. One of the first things I said to her was “Chinese don’t do regime change” in respect to some of her anti-Chinese comments made in a speech. I had to hold myself back from expressing anti-Western sentiment) I would say that in terms of personality, I am a mixture of cultures but in some respects I wonder whether I am like a British born black person. Sounds a generalisation, but I had a lot of black friends, through coincidence, living in black areas and also musical projects.

  485. Ste,

    Your experience is interesting to me.

    You are very English in “style”, but you have a Chinese hart and face. Did you find that you belong to nowhere and not completely accepted by any race?

    I have this worry for my kids now. The way that I raise them is different than most of Chinese immigrants. I didn’t push them hard on academic, didn’t make them play piano or violin, nor go to Chinese school. I forced them to play sports, cared about their social skill development and social success at school. I take them to China a lot and often stayed for the whole summer when they were young, they made quite a few friends there. In their pre-school and elementary school years, they were easier to make friends with Chinese kids than with White kids. But since middle school, none of them have close Chinese or Asian friend anymore (Asian kids in their school are few anyhow).

    You see, they don’t share many common experiences with ABCs, like play violin, piano, participate in math and science competition, etc, I don’t know how they can connect with American born Asians later. They fit in well with Caucasions now, have a lots of white friends, but they have Chinese faces and like China. I doubt them can ever being completely accepted in White society.

  486. @Chinesemom

    Your kids sound a bit like me. I was mediocre at school. My parents didn’t really push me like other middle class Chinese kids and I think looking back it might have been better if they had. I kind of did what I felt like. I took a trip to Singapore and saw how well my cousins were doing academically and suddenly when I got back to the UK I had become brighter by simple osmosis. Went to secondary school and found myself one of the top students. Went to Uni and all that, got professional qualifications (very highly qualified) . But career wise I chose a profession where my race went against me.

    I think it is progressively easier for Chinese to “get on” but at the end of the day, they look at your face. It is only when I speak that people realise that I am a Brit and my English is superior to theirs. I embrace England, the culture, the countryside and medieval history. There is so much that is so cool about England. So deep. But I do interpret things in a sort of English middle class way.

    I have had to fight to keep my Chinese-ness. Like i said, I do speak a dialect but my Cantonese and Mandarin is pretty poor and so there is a loss of connection with other Chinese already. I have always been fascinated by Chinese martial arts but I have learnt mostly Japanese karate (many years ago) . I sometimes watch CCTV (in English). It’s all second hand experience and I have to work really hard to hold on to the fragments of Chinese-ness that I have. I don’t even identify in terms of personality with a lot of Chinese. I don’t want to offend anyone, because it’s just my experience, but if I find many Chinese (whether born in UK or not) overly academic with quite rigid thinking patterns or the opposite (like my friend W who was a triad leader). My brother and I by contrast (and much more my brother) are intellectually curious about different areas that are nothing to do with academics or money. He has had 3 major professions and I have had one, but also been a national champion in one hobby and performed at top UK venues as a musician. In a sense we are independent thinkers. We were both fortunate in the sense that we went to schools and had friends that provide this environment.

    I want to give an example of where I think Chinese thinking is different from English. Of course there are no scientific controls or comparisons. I was recently with a number of Chinese people, travelling in 2 cars. Then we noticed that there had been a motor bike on its side and and a toddler on the floor and a mother and a car and a chap hovering. I insisted on the driver stopping and he would not. He was a company director in his mid thirties. He appeared to me to pretend not to have known what the problem was and to be honest I was thoroughly disgusted and didn’t want to speak to him that evening. People didn’t even flap. They pretended not to see. I guarantee that English people would have stopped. My observation (and you can do the usual game of criticising my observations as being personal and non-scientific) is that English are more proactive in non money-making/non academic areas.

    I have never been to USA, but I do read a lot of material on the internet. I would say that there is considerable anti- Chinese sentiment there. There is definitely an underlying racism on the part of whites towards Chinese and that the media makes representations that there is something defective and unmasculine about Chinese males. You have to remember that whilst the USA brags about it being the light bearer of democracy that it does not treat other nations democratically. It practically wiped out the native Americans and enslaved Africans. Its history is reprehensible and hypocritical. In recent years Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc. Does China do this?

    @ Chinesemom – what were your reasons for going to America?

    I would say for your kids that USA will probably be a better place for them. Especially with the rise of China. They might get fantastic jobs. But really, they will be American. Once Chinese move to a country that is so linguistically dominant and economically powerful, their kids will become like their hosts. It is unfair to expect otherwise. You take the dollar, your kids will be American, They might even marry white people. Your genes may be dispersed amongst white people. You have to take the pill and it will be bitter sweet.

    Some Chinese parents that came from abroad want their kids to marry Chinese, but it is so unrealistic. My mum, even now, goes on about how beautiful Chinese girls are. How they are tall “like English girls” and how they have long legs “like English girls”. Then it’s how I could go to China, teach English there, learn Chinese and so somehow save my Chinese-ness. It is all incredibly irritating. She chose to come to England, not me. I wasn’t even born.

  487. On the topic of accents, I remember reading an article somewhere stating that children tend to pick up accents and speech patterns from their peers, not their parents.

  488. @Hadoken

    Take a look at following videos, do you think they have accents?
    It seems to me that their pronunciations are all right, but their tones and rhythms are unique to Asians grew up here, not all ABCs have this kind of accent though. Most black people also have their unique voice and accents too (I’m not taking about ebonics here), I often can tell a person is black without looking at their face. That made me wonder if these things are partially biological, or as what Ste said that the first language spoken as a baby shaped the mouth.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eE1E5wc5Tg&feature=player_embedded
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyIeXsSdn8c&feature=relmfu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leqr-HtoZ4Q&feature=relmfu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3_oX15lSnI&feature=relmfu
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mCROMik2wY&feature=relmfu

  489. Haha, yes, I do detect an accent. I find it funny because a couple of my cousins sound like the kids in these videos, sorta. I’m certainly no expert in this, and I can’t find that article I mentioned earlier. However, here’s a link to a linguist explaining how accents are developed:

    http://linguistlist.org/ask-ling/accent.cfm

    Pretty interesting stuff!

  490. @STE,

    Haha, I do understand what your mother is saying and why she does that. I prefer my kids to marry ABCs from mainland Chinese families too, not because I care to keep the genes in our race, but because I believe it will be the ideal marriage for them, similar culture background will make marriage a lot easier. On the other hand, I understand that chances are relatively small for them to find an ABC to marry, so I’ll accept whoever they fall in love with and marry to.

    I wonder why you wish your parents had pushed you on your academics. You are doing quite well now. You think that would make a difference if they had pushed you more? Both of my kids are doing well at school according to my standard, which is higher than white parents but lower than most Chinese parents. I just didn’t make them to do extra works like other Chinese parents do.

    Also, do you regret that you chose a profession where your race went against you? My son, even though he is academically smart, his real strength seems to be inter- and intrapersonal intelligence. I often impressed with the high EQ he showed. He is always interested in people, never showed much interests in academics. I suspect that he will be like you, choose a profession where his race will be a disadvantage. Any suggestion here?

  491. @Chinesemom

    You said: “Also, do you regret that you chose a profession where your race went against you? My son, even though he is academically smart, his real strength seems to be inter- and intrapersonal intelligence. I often impressed with the high EQ he showed. He is always interested in people, never showed much interests in academics. I suspect that he will be like you, choose a profession where his race will be a disadvantage. ”

    Your son sounds incredibly like me. In a University reference a quite famous tutor wrote something about me having “an extraordinary ability to get on with people” “and “high level of interpersonal sensitivity” or something like that. I then became a lawyer which in England, at the time, was not a great idea maybe. Of course, if I had been totally dedicated then, that would be different. Maybe if I wasn’t a guitarist (quite a serious level) and into hobbies, then I would have been great but I could n’t live with that kind of single mindedness. If you are not white, you can’t slacken off. You can’t have off days; you have to be smiling all the time and positive. You are judged more harshly. If you are strong willed, you are perceived as arrogant. If you are highly motivated, then bad tempered. If you are a thinker, then you are a “dreamer”. If I had been one of these Chinese kids who are incredibly focussed, maybe I would have been a success because I would have had a better work ethic, faster cognitive skills.

    Maybe times are changing tho’. Your kids should take whatever works for whatever culture they are in. China will be the world leader, maybe not militarily, but in terms of dynamism of economy, jobs. If they have great Chinese language skills, then this will be a massive advantage. I play in a band sometimes with a 15 year old young man (drummer). He goes to my old school and brags that his mandarin is better than mine – they learn Mandarin there now. The upper middle classes here I think are learning Mandarin, that’s how much they value it.

    I think the problem with the high intensity bossing around that Chinese kids get can be great in one way but very destructive in another way. The world is like the play ground that Chinese parents try to keep their kids from. There are nice people, racist people, bullies. You have to somehow survive with them, not avoid them which is what Chinese try to do. We don’t like confrontation so we live in more exclusive areas etc. I am not knocking that. But what happens is that we grow up “timid”.

    That’s why I think Chinese kids should do things like boxing, wrestling for self defence and confidence and also learn to do manual things like scouting. cars, doing the gardening and especially building. These latter skills will at least save them money if not give them a “grounded” mind set. Like when they are in their teens, you could get them a hard, manual job with trusted people. The military (like at a child level – not Iraq!) will also toughen them up a bit as well.

    I think for your kids, with a good well-rounded Western personality with good, confident leadership skills and great Chinese language skills, they could be involved in international business and dare-I-say banking, if they want to make money. It’s good to analyse other races, their strengths and weaknesses. I know some people will go crazy for me saying this, but Jewish people are the model for the minority. My family was in Jewish circles when I was a youngster and a lot of my love of books and reading (which I passed on to my brother) comes from Jewish people that I knew.

  492. Wish I had joined in on this thread earlier. I just saw it yesterday and boy was it a lot of reading.

    @ ChineseMom:

    Your insights are enlightening to us and I’m so glad you’re a part of these discussions. Sincerely, I learn so much from you.

    That said, when we’re talking about the last 100 or so years in the U.S., minority ethnic groups in this country get marginalized when the dominating white majority begin perceiving that minority group as a threat. To maintain their dominance, the majority try to render this minority group inferior or subjugate them socially and politically. In fact, that partially explains the rampant Sinophobia going on right now. It’s not because one group is superior to another, more civilized, evolved, mature, wolves and sheep, blah blah.

    Now there is no way I can battle your brains when it comes to Chinese history or culture, but come on… Mao saved China? Really? Mao wrecked China. Or at the very least, we can say that Mao was a flawed man who did some good and did some bad but by no means did he “save” China. China’s civilization was, using your own words, highly evolved, mature, and superior in arts, culture, science, and technology. Then the Cultural Revolution burned all that to the ground and if there is any reason for China being “inferior” right now, it’s attributable to the period of time when Mao’s “great thinking” ruled.

    Confucianism, likewise, is a problematic doctrine that has caused profound harm to modern Chinese society and relationships, but it isn’t any more (or less) harmful than the misogyny found in many other cultures and nations, and that’s inclusive of the West. Christianity in certain evangelical manifestations is very dangerous to modern societies and relationships as well. So to say Confucianism is the root cause of China being so “inferior” right now is not a very “big picture” assessment. In fact, if anything is the root cause of China being “inferior” it’s the Chinese people’s own internalized sense of inferiority and insecurity– that whole sheep talk, for instance. Or implying pride in one’s children being better assimilated with white kids than with Asian kids. Or using the white majority’s racism and stereotypes to negatively characterize “typical Chinese parenting” and then immediately following that with, “that’s NOT how I raise MY kids… WE are not typical Chinese because we don’t play piano and violin and we do varsity football instead.” This kind of internalized thought process is far more harmful to Chinese and Chinese American communities than sheep and wolves, moderation theory, and Confucianism combined.

    I generally find myself disagreeing with Raguel, but here I’m compelled to agree with his points… or at least up until this otherwise engaging debate got derailed and everyone started hurling personal insults at each other…

    I hope I have succeeded at tempering down my wording here because I definitely do not want to attack. I want to understand. And right now, I do not understand at all.

  493. Raguel is a troll who contributes worthless nothings to any debate or discussion. He will attempt to bait you into flaming by attacking arguments you never made. I suggest that you do not attempt to formally debate with him. It’s not possible.

    It’s best to treat him as a schizophrenic lunatic and only occasionally indulge his need for attention in the form of mockery.

  494. I wouldn’t call him a troll. He has strong opinions. That’s infinitely better than a person with no opinions. Could do without some of the personal insults that get hurled around here, though.

  495. [i]http://tinyurl.com/3rfra3l[/i]

    Case in point.

    Several times I’ll be reading a debate here, once Raguel joins in it’ll start out normally. Then it’s a matter of time before he transforms into a flaming troll. It’s very amusing to watch though.

  496. The last time you posted here, you said something to the effect that pick up artist instructors should include a paid session with prostitutes for their clients so that they would see more improvement.

    I rest my case.

  497. [i]Raguel is a troll who contributes worthless nothings to any debate or discussion. [b]He will attempt to bait you into flaming by attacking arguments you never made. [\b]I suggest that you do not attempt to formally debate with him. It’s not possible.
    [\i]

    You never had a case to begin with.

  498. Akrypti @ 8Asians,

    I don’t know what your background, but I don’t agree with your view on China and Mao at all. It is the simple view that many Chinese have been brainwashed to believe in. Actually, I had this view when I was young and before I came to the U.S. to see the world. When I get older and wiser, I understand more and my view on Mao and Communist Party have completely changed.

    For you and others to understand my points of view, I have to write a lot about the China that I grew up in. If you are patient, then I may be able to write it in next couple of weeks.

    Regarding raising children, I did my part of hard thinking and observing, talked to many Chinese kids, I reach the conclusion that our typical Asian parenting make relatively “weak” kids (I think many of the weakness has been mentioned in Wesley Yang’s Paper Tiger), that’s why we don’t do that well beyond college. You may say that I have internalized sense of inferiority and insecurity, but do you know that I considered Asian way of parenting is superior before I had kids? Parenting is a humble experience for me, it made me re-learn and re-think many things, including American and Chinese culture.

  499. Ste,

    Thanks for the advice.

    From what you said, it seems to me that your real interests are guitar and other hobbies, not law. So it is not a bad idea at all for you to become a lawyer, it gives you comfortable living while you can pursue your passions.

    I do see quite a few Chinese kids grow up “timid”, and most of them were not like that when they were in grade school. There are a lot of reasons for that. I agree with you that playing sports will help. That’s why I advocate contact team sports among my Chinese friends circle. We don’t have boxing for kids here, my son played many years of soccer, basketball, football and other sports. Sports made him physically strong, mentally tough and very confident, the price is that the social success made him isn’t interested in academic as he used to be :(

  500. Here is an very interesting interview of Liu Xiao Bo by Hong Kong’s The Liberation Monthly in 1988. Liu received Nobel Peace Price in 2010.

    I don’t like Liu’s pro- West stance. His view on the West is too naive and he worships the West too much. But I do agree with many things he said about Chinese culture here, even though he is kind of too extreme. I admired him very much when I was young, not any more. He didn’t grow much in past 20 years, and it is too bad that he is so willingly to let the West use him against China. From on wiki here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Xiaobo), people may know what a big sell out he is, and what kind of people in China the West have been supporting all along.

    The following is the google translation of the interview article. I edited it so that the translation will make sense.
    ===================
    Liu: China needs at least three hundred years of being colonized

    [The liberation Monthly Report of the press: since Liu Xiaobo, since our debut, I look forward to meet him. November 27, the end of the lectures in Norway, the invitation of the University of Hawaii, via Hong Kong to stay a few days, accepted liberation Monthly Report of interview with, the following access to records according to the transcripts. 】

    In June of this year, held at Beijing Normal University, Liu Xiaobo PhD thesis Defense “aesthetic and human freedom”, nine first-class professors and experts unanimously agreed to grant the doctorate of literature to Liu. However, Liu Xiaobo, this interview did not indicate a little cautious and gentle scholar, but more like a tenacious performance of his own concept of the “angry youth” or “thinking young”. His intense and sharp come from maturity of his world view, and his courageous showed his profound generation gap from Chinese intellectual mainstream, which can easily reminiscent of the sixties Li Ao in Taiwan .

    If let Liu Xiaobo represent contemporary rebellious young generation of China in ideology, he is well-deserved. Therefore, this interview is worth a reading for the people who concern to China’s development and the younger generation status.

    Q: you arevconsidered a “dark horse”, yous speech is “extreme” on the mainland, and how will they let you out ?

    Liu: I go abroad not feel much resistance, the procedure was very smooth. Invitation handed to the first department for approval, and then approved by the school, I’ve only been to the State Board of Education twice, once to send the material, once to take the passport and visa. This went very smoothly among Chinese, many people go abroad have to have many trips to get the document, just to be stripped off a layer of skin. I never once been to the Norwegian Embassy.

    Criticism of the education system

    Q: you received Ph.D. from in Beijing Normal University in June of this year, does this mean an official acknowledgement?

    Liu: I will never recognize the knowledge is good or bad determined by the doctors and masters, I look at a specific person, if you are good, you don’t need any degree. In my opinion, both in China and abroad, the real decent, only a handful, so I said, college graduates 95 percent are of the waste, 97 percent of master’s graduates. PhD graduates are 98%, 99% of the waste. Can not use the degree to evaluate a person, contacting with people, I determine the likes and dislikes, good and bad by feelings.

    Q: One of the pillars of Western society is the education system, the degree often determine a person’s social status, what do you think China’s degree system status in the international arena?

    Liu Xiaobo: Chinese degree, I do not want to talk about, I want to talk about the Chinese education system, there is one point of the system that the world can not match, that is, it change person into a slave through education.

    Q: Are you saying now?

    Liu: In the past, are now the same.

    Q: No changes at all?

    Liu Xiaobo: no. The skills and procedures of change individual into slave through education has reached the world’s most mature and an extreme degree. I was in China from elementary school to the university, grew up in the “splint” , as a bonded tree, branches were cut down.

    Q: you start school during the Cultural Revolution?

    Liu: I am very grateful to the Cultural Revolution. At that time I was a child, I can do whatever I want to do. Parents was busy in revolution. The schools are closed, I can temporarily get rid of the education program, to do what I wanted to do things, play, play the war, I had a great time.

    Q: What’s your trip to Nordic doing? Happy you?

    Liu Xiaobo: a foundation of the University of Oslo invited me, they have a research funding on China, going to invite five people: the first one was me, second Bei Dao, and then Chen Kaige, Wanzhi, Mi Qiu. Gave about five lectures, leaving A lecture outline of more than 30,000 words, the mainly talked about Chinese literature.

    Criticism of Western Sinology

    Q: three months, What was your impression of the Nordic’s China studies ?

    Liu: I would still say, 98% of their sinologists are wastes, their academic quality very poor, a lot of people are flattering to the Chinese Government, relations with China have a great utilitarian ingredients, they are not scholars. I like such as Australia’s Pierre Ryckmans, the John King Fairbank, they were really engaged in the China problem, they take a detached attitude, sit on the sidelines. but sinologist, such as Germany, Sweden, in northern Europe, they neither know their own culture, do not understand Chinese, see little things in China, just like a certain writer, to study his stuff. at least I know the University of Oslo, Professor, Department of East Asian level is fraught , including language skills. I said to them, your study of the contemporary Chinese literature just like the level of Chinese study Vietnamese or Korean literature. The professor who invited me said I was the first Chinese that was blunt to them.

    Q: In addition to the literary problems, you talk political and social issues in a foreign country?

    Liu Xiaobo: rarely. My experience in abroad made me deeply realize that, want to be a real person, nature has given you talent different from other people , you can implement to the end. This is a thorough person. To be this kind of people, only in China, but also in the West, need the courage and wisdom.Many of the weaknesses of mankind is common, but the Chinese people developed it to the point of hell.

    Q: The trip to Hawaii, what you are going to talk about there?

    Liu Xiaobo: not prepared to talk about the literature, would like to talk about philosophy, about three months, and then may go to California, USA.

    Q: You, go around the world, are you planning on going back to China?

    Liu: I do not want to go back now, but I can not guarantee what will change in the future.

    Q: Some Chinese writers said that after leaving the home country and peoples, it is difficult to make achievements, do you agree?

    Liu Xiaobo: they are to leave a way back out for themselves, is the show of the weakness. Life is under your feet, every minute there is life. As long as you can face the inner world, can keep the feeling, you can write something, no matter where you live.

    Q: you will not be faced with a choice?

    Liu: I have the limitations of my own which can not get rid of: language problems. I can not use English to express my inner world well, I may use English to express the meaning in the future, but the flavor of the language would be gone! So, if the language wouldn’t be a problem, China will have nothing to do with. My biggest sorrow is the limitations of language, also had to speak for China. I was having dialogue with a very ignorant and very vulgar things, this kind of dialogue will only make