First Move Advantage

The thread about Universal vs. Desperation Morality is moving towards a discussion on whether men or women have advantages in their dating interactions. I think it’s a good topic to debate, but it’s separate from the main topic of how desperate people act.

Here’s my view on the new topic–in our society, men have the advantage, even though it doesn’t guarantee that men will have successful dates in all circumstances. The reason men have the advantage is that they get to ask first. They choose the time in which they ask and the speed at which they move, and when they get a date, they get to choose the time, place, and venue. Men in general don’t have to worry about physical safety when they go on dates, which results in considerable peace of mind that women don’t have the privilege of experiencing.

When a guy approaches a woman, he has all night to think about how he’s going to do it. Even before he even knows of the woman’s existence, he has the ability to plan. When he sees a woman across the room, he can move whenever he wants. A woman, on the other hand, has to make a snap decision on how to react on the spot.

Let’s clear things out of the way–just because a person has an advantage, doesn’t mean a person will win every time. Sure, women have the ability to turn down a man. Sure, they make the ultimate decision. But men still have the advantage because they get to act instead of react.

It’s like a game of chess. If you play White (and therefore move first), you have an advantage. Statistics show that the odds are slightly in your favor if you play White.  Wiki estimates it at 52-56%: not a huge advantage, but enough to confirm that it’s real. (You also have an advantage if you play White in the Asian dating game, but that’s a whole different discussion).

The same analogy holds true in fighting and boxing. Quinton Jackson had an advantage over Liddell because he set the tone by moving forward. Liddell had no idea what hit him. Evander Holyfield stepped up with Iron Mike because he stepped forward instead of running (although his technique was kinda dirty). Jon Jones surprised Jackson by taking an aggressive wrestler’s stance and jumping in for a takedown. The guy who initiates the pace has an advantage. It doesn’t mean he’ll always win, but the odds are in his favor.

The same analogy also holds true when we talk about racism. If you’re not part of the mainstream group that makes decisions, you may find yourself reacting to what the mainstream says about you. If you’re in reaction mode, you don’t get to set the speed, venue, or timing. You are therefore at a disadvantage, even though you can still win.

(pic from here)

225 thoughts on “First Move Advantage

  1. I tend to think women have the advantage in general, although there are factors that often tend to counteract it.

    Everything males do is basically a song and dance to either impress women, or to impress other guys (which gains status, often in order to impress women, ultimately). Women can observe all this, and ultimately say yes or no… which has the potential to crush a man whose hopes have been riding on a positive result. I think this is why some men are extremely misogynistic – it comes partly out of the power women can wield over them emotionally. The way female subordination is portrayed in porn is probably a reflection of this resentment also.

    What counteracts the female upper hand? Several things. Primarily, it is the threat of male violence and control. In most of the world, women aren’t able to fully exercise their power in the relationship game because men (not all obviously) either pose a threat to their safety or control their deicison-making.

  2. I think men have the advantage overall. (many) Women play into the “Cinderalla” dream and even though we mentally know that men do a song and dance to get our attention and much of what they say is BS, we (as women) always, always imagine how our life may pan out IF we go out with said guy. And unfortunately, I think women play the guys up in their daydreams, which clouds their vision in what it’s like in real life, which leads to poor decision making skills, which typically leads to a bad relationship. The result of a poor decision for most men is a one nighter with a girl that looked good w/ beer goggles, not a long-term relationship.

  3. Those who are approached already know that they’re the buyers. The power of ultimate choice matters because…

    Sure, women have the ability to turn down a man. Sure, they make the ultimate decision. But men still have the advantage because they get to act instead of react.

    …as the judge of whether you’re even worthy of the time of day, that holds the only vote that counts. The chooser does not need any first move advantage– and that makes any perceived first move advantage meaningless.

    Much more accurate analogies would be sales, interviewing for a job, and having an audience with the Queen or King. A person can strategize all they want to influence that choice, but at the end of the day, the only choices they have is whether to risk rejection (and sometimes humilliation) or not, and whether to cut their losses later.

    Like I said in the other thread, all the details of when and where to take someone on a date are not privileges, but responsibilities. The default assumption with squares is that the asker is auditioning to be accepted, not the other way around.

    Men in general don’t have to worry about physical safety when they go on dates, which results in considerable peace of mind that women don’t have the privilege of experiencing.

    This I don’t disagree with, though to imply that they face physical danger from the majority of guys would be a stretch. For the sake of simplicity, though, yeah, men do not have to worry.

  4. By the way, on a coincidental note, I am just starting to get into chess again. :) I dropped it for a while because I burned myself out after being addicted for months. However, I just picked up a book on end games this week again!

  5. (You also have an advantage if you play White in the Asian dating game, but that’s a whole different discussion).

    I have said this before and I will say it again. The IR disparity is much more a function of female hypergamy than race. One which has been exacerbated by the relentless pursuit of the Model Minority status.

    The AM who is successful by the usual standards of the Model Minority profile (Ivy degree, doctor/lawyer, respectable family) will win out over the generic dorky white guy. But not every AM fits this profile and that’s the problem.

  6. Hey kobukson

    How about other professionals like Accountants, Engineers, or Business Management types?

  7. To all those saying women have the advantage i’d have to agree. However only if the woman is physically attractive. This is a key point.

    Ugly women are at a massive disadvantage in the dating game and are unable to pick and choose like their attractive counterpart. Ugly women are unlike ugly men they can’t rely on status to help them overcome this handicap.

  8. Agree with Response

    And most guys don’t realize that men are the first ones to reject, judge, dismiss, pass over, or exclude women, it just happens before you ever say a word to her. Those are the girls that nobody is talking to, the girls that most guys have judged as “ugly.” For these women there are NO options. ASt least the ugly guy can get rich… Yes, I’m looking at you, JZ!

  9. My previous point is also the reason I think its pathetic when I’ve read about how certain PUA’s put so much emphasis on getting a white woman. As if it proves some kind of point.

    If the white woman is unattractive getting her is no challenge and doesn’t actually prove anything as she is unable to pick and chose in the dating market, a guy who is with a girl cause no one else wanted her reflects worse on the male. It just fuels the idea that non-white males are happy to take the scraps as long as she is white. Reinforcing the status quo. This of course is similar to what certain Asian guys accuse Asian women of doing and the cycle continues.

  10. I couldn’t reply earlier because I am travelling on business.

    Byron I think I got what you said to me in that other thread earlier. Momentum and initiative really are winning advantages. It’s one of those things that if you cede or lose to another person, is very hard to get back. Hell, even in negotiations, if the other party has gotten you used to them setting the tone or making the rules and decisions, it’s very difficult to say no diplomatically.

    If you pair initiative and momentum with a powerful base and a strong position, that’s the groundwork for a very good play.

    I think that where the problem lies for a lot of guys is that they don’t come from a strong position and they don’t have a strong base, not to even speak of the quality of their moves.

    I look back at every guy I have ever known who can truly be said to be “good” with women, and they’re all men that have (or had) a strong base and position they could develop on to their full potential, a FAR cry with the PUA philosophy which is full of mimicry and pretends.

    All of these guys I’ve talked to about this in the past have told me pretty much the same basic things (but in different ways), you have to make something out of yourself and be distinguished, set yourself apart from others, and then a positive attitude, and feeling good about yourself makes you a much smoother operator.

  11. “When a guy approaches a woman, he has all night to think about how he’s going to do it. Even before he even knows of the woman’s existence, he has the ability to plan. When he sees a woman across the room, he can move whenever he wants. A woman, on the other hand, has to make a snap decision on how to react on the spot.”

    I’d just like to use this point to segue into something I think may help our ex-PUA friends,

    Women don’t like making snap decisions. They will always prefer to have some idea of who you are before they make a decision. Understanding this is to the man’s advantage. The multitudes of PUAs do not understand this and never arrive at this prosaic discovery, that reveals them to be of sub-human intelligence. (See Asian of Reason? I am actually more extreme than you are)

    Song and dance is the realm of the woman. If you’re a guy, you just need to make your positive qualities known to as many women as possible. Even in a competitive environment that will be enough to get you dates and a few sexual liaisons. Don’t forget, women are looking for suitable guys too, and they have their own preferences and desires.

    Screw the cold approach. Be visible, be sociable. Be bold enough to make your qualities known. When you do these things, just watch how much easier it is to approach women and have them respond well.

  12. From another post:

    “Here in NYC, there are guys who volunteer for these non-charity organizations, and their job is to hit on many people (mostly girls) as they can in the public, soliciting for donations. I betcha a lot of them are saving money/time on the PUA routine. It doesn’t seem like a bad idea!”

    Lol, you mean those guys constantly asking people for some “spare change”? In that case I do agree! Since learning PUA will lead to the same end they may as well save time and money and start early. XD

  13. Response: To all those saying women have the advantage i’d have to agree. However only if the woman is physically attractive. This is a key point.

    Ugly women are at a massive disadvantage in the dating game and are unable to pick and choose like their attractive counterpart. Ugly women are unlike ugly men they can’t rely on status to help them overcome this handicap.

    King:
    Those are the girls that nobody is talking to, the girls that most guys have judged as “ugly.”

    Good point, but let’s not forget that those same women will reject a man if they don’t think you’re up to their standards see the OK Cupid link below). How many of the unnattractive guys in existence really have a real chance of achieving a high enough status to remedy their situation?

    Even ugly girls, on average, do not want low status (or short/ugly) men. Many men have noticed how harsh women on average can be in judging guy’s attractiveness. Even OK Cupid seemed to notice:

    Your Looks and Your Inbox

    “As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway.”

    King:
    And most guys don’t realize that men are the first ones to reject, judge, dismiss, pass over, or exclude women, it just happens before you ever say a word to her.

    This is passive rejection, and women do the same thing as well. Women are aware of the guys around them. The difference is that they don’t have to make that rejection obvious until an unwanted guy makes his approach– that’s one of the perks of not having to take initiative.

    For these women there are NO options. ASt least the ugly guy can get rich… Yes, I’m looking at you, JZ!

    Those few who have the opportunity to become rich have the same options, regardless of gender: males have goldiggers, and women have the gigolos.

    And let’s not forget that Jay Z has talent and is 6’1″ in height!

  14. Women don’t like making snap decisions. They will always prefer to have some idea of who you are before they make a decision. Understanding this is to the man’s advantage. The multitudes of PUAs do not understand this and never arrive at this prosaic discovery, that reveals them to be of sub-human intelligence.

    Hey Raguel,

    This is OK if you have the luxury of being seen over time, or seeing the woman over time, like in social circles.

    Screw the cold approach. Be visible, be sociable. Be bold enough to make your qualities known. When you do these things, just watch how much easier it is to approach women and have them respond well.

    The whole point of cold approaching is to talk to the women that normally do not run in your social circles, and who you might never run into again.

  15. And, like I’ve said before, the whole point of PUA, before they began trying to sell themselves to the mainstream, was fast sex– not a relationship. Among the real players I met, the goal has always been that, and they’ve always been successful at it.

  16. I actually think it comes down to being a wash between the sexes. Although men get to plan and ask they also face the anxiety and hard work that goes into this. Women, unless they are absolute beasts, get the luxury of getting sex whenever they want essentially on demand — they can go to bars and get laid 100% of the time if they like. Men can only get near 100% if they are willing to pay for it.

    Looks matter most for men unless the looks gap between the couple is supplemented by money (game is vastly overrated). A very ugly guy will have problems with high value women unless he pays for her.

    If you compare a man who is a 9 on the 10 point scale and a woman who is a 9, it is a ton easier for a woman to marry up. Consider, a 9 woman working at McDonald’s can marry a wealthy good looking guy. A man who is a 9 can date girl 9s who work with him, but will have trouble dating a wealthy attractive woman.

  17. @ Raguel – “Lol, you mean those guys constantly asking people for some “spare change”? In that case I do agree! Since learning PUA will lead to the same end they may as well save time and money and start early. XD”

    Yes, I think it’s a good idea. The random girls in the streets are more willing to give you the time of the day because you seem more credible. After all, you are representing a charity organization with a good cause. Unfortunately, I don’t see any Asian guys giving this a shot, but many sign up with ABCs instead.

  18. “Looks matter most for men unless the looks gap between the couple is supplemented by money (game is vastly overrated). A very ugly guy will have problems with high value women unless he pays for her”.

    Just by looking at their websites, PUAs regardless of race seem to “bag” a lot of mediocre looking women at best. Unless, I’m unaware what goes on in the field or their personal lives, most of the women featured aren’t what I call smoking hot babes. I guess they just want to get laid.

  19. Btw, many Asian dudes have a harder time dating in the West because of what Fun said. Looks matter for most men, and if he is not a looker, he needs to compensate with money, which the Columbia University dating study suggests. That is, Asian men are seen as less attractive, and need to earn more to be on equal footing with other guys.

  20. King,

    Regarding “ugly” women being at a disadvantage and attractive women having advantages: would it be fair to say that we can only make the comparison if we’re talking of people of the same relative standing? Some average Joe hitting on Cindy Crawford is definitely at a disadvantage, but would Richard Gere be at a disadvantage?

    Notty,

    Which book on endgames? There was this really good book that I bought years ago by…Rubinstein was it? I found that it’s instructive to study all the endgame possibilities–it saves you time when you finally play!

    Raguel/Notty:

    I like Raguel’s point about snap decisions. When you interview for a job, they interviewer usually sets the time, and you usually interview at HIS or HER office which HE or SHE controls. When you pitch something to a King, you have to bow down and do all sorts of strange things based on HIS rules.

    It’s totally different when you’re asking out a girl.

    Sales is a good analogy, but a good salesman does in fact have the upper hand if the client needs the service or product.

  21. Response,

    When you talk about women and their looks, I can’t get over that sexist, unprovoked attack you launched at TZ while hiding behind an anonymous screen name. Someone should’ve sent me a trigger alert. I know that I’m not the only male here who was offended by that kind of behavior. I know I closed the thread, but you really need to answer that. I think you owe her an apology, especially since you know it was intended to insult her, not because it’s what you really think. I have no idea what caused you to take that action, especially since she had never spoken with you before.

  22. Sorry to everyone else for beating a dead horse, and I’m fine with all the PUA support, but the standards of decency have to go up here–we can’t use certain PUA-esque (according to some schools) ethics if we want to get better. I’m cool with people being anonymous, but people who are anonymous shouldn’t be prying and attacking those who are public.

  23. Wowo

    TZ looks were entirely relevant to my statements, her assumption was that she was so attractive that a man (AOR in that case) would have died where he was standing simply based on her looking his way. I don’t know where you get the idea its not what I really think.

    Second if you are public and make such claims you are open for scrutiny.

  24. @ Response:
    That’s your own interpretation of TZ’s statement. I didn’t personally read her comment as big-noting herself in the way you did.
    If I were you I’d think about this: AOR starts spouting crap about Byron’s wife, showing how superficially he views women, and TZ weighs in to attack him for it, and you basically echo the theme AOR is pushing by attacking TZ based on her looks.

    You should ask yourself why, rather than being stunned about AOR taking unprovoked potshots at Byron’s wife (as most of us were, I think), you got far more angry at TZ suggesting that AOR talks a big game but probably wouldn’t have the guts to talk to someone her or Mrs Byron in real life.

    You don’t come off creditably in that thread, man.

    Oh and for what it’s worth: TZ looks pretty good as far as I’m concerned. Not that it matters.

  25. Notty,
    Which book on endgames? There was this really good book that I bought years ago by…Rubinstein was it? I found that it’s instructive to study all the endgame possibilities–it saves you time when you finally play!

    I actually got two that I found in a used bookstore in Boston:

    100 Endgames You Must Know: Vital Lessons for Every Chess Player by Jesus de la Villa.

    Basic Chess Endings by Reuben Fine.

    Yeah, you’re right about saving time! I happen to be the kind of player who snatches defeat from the jaws of victory, because I only knew like one end game (how to checkmate with two towers). :)

  26. Raguel/Notty:
    I like Raguel’s point about snap decisions. When you interview for a job, they interviewer usually sets the time, and you usually interview at HIS or HER office which HE or SHE controls. When you pitch something to a King, you have to bow down and do all sorts of strange things based on HIS rules.

    It’s totally different when you’re asking out a girl.

    Hey Byron,

    For me the aspect that’s relevant about interviewing or a royal hearing is not the office or the court, but the fact of who has the ultimate authority to yay or nay based on what they think is suitable for them. The power of having the final say cannot be hand waved away or minimized. If you want their ‘yes’, you have to satisfy whatever requirements they have. Whether they have to make a snap decision to determine if they’ll give you a chance to state your case further, the ultimate decision of whether you get chosen is theirs, and nothing can take that away except force– which only men who are less than garbage would even consider.

    Sales is a good analogy, but a good salesman does in fact have the upper hand if the client needs the service or product.

    Yes, but that’s only if the salesman is the only game in town for what your average buyer wants. Maybe the Mr. Goodbars in the top 10 % of eligibility are in that position, but the rest of us are not. What your average guy is selling is no different from what’s available from the masses of guys. Futurama made a hilarious and very astute observation of this in “Why Must I Be A Crustacean In Love?”. I couldn’t find a video, which is much better, but the image sort of tells the story.

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  28. Nots,

    Sry bout the spam folder.

    That was it! It was Reuben Fine, not Rubenstein. In my defense, they rhyme! :)

    What an awesome book. The thing is that if you don’t aren’t familiar with the endings, you need to think…”hmm, how do I mate with these pieces against that one?” This book breaks it down.

    Damn, we should do a chess thread one of these days. Does anyone else here play?

    Point understood about the yea-or-nea, but a good salesman always manages to survive. Think about these guys on Wall Street. That’s their game, and they’ve mastered it. urb4n could sell ice to an eskimo.

    Yes, but that’s only if the salesman is the only game in town for what your average buyer wants. Maybe the Mr. Goodbars in the top 10 % of eligibility are in that position, but the rest of us are not.

    There are obviously some differences in people. A guy like with the character of Response who gets his kicks by anonymous sexist attacks would probably die where he stood to even talk to TZ..but among normal people, the hierarchy is fuzzy and sometimes doesn’t even exist.

    I’ve found that most people usually end up with someone relatively similar to them–and I don’t say this in terms of superiority or inferiority, but just one of difference. Bill Clinton would never ever marry a…say, Kim Kardashian…even though most people would say that Kim Kardashian is quite attractive…both Clinton and Kim are both in the top 10%. Princess Di would never marry a Brad Pitt, nor would Brad Pitt go for a Princess Di, even though they’re both at the top. So I don’t know if the point is to define what’s best, but rather to make the right match.

  29. Response,

    TZ looks were entirely relevant to my statements, her assumption was that she was so attractive that a man (AOR in that case) would have died where he was standing simply based on her looking his way. I don’t know where you get the idea its not what I really think.

    Second if you are public and make such claims you are open for scrutiny.

    Yeah, dude, I disagree. I got the idea that you didn’t really think that because you were attacking her. And because (as Eurasian said, and I think as King said too, and as much of the designer community agrees) she’s good looking. You weren’t pointing something out as a manner of conversation, you were just usin’ the ol’ male advantage to launch a sexist attack while hiding behind an anonymous name.

    And no, you’re not open to scrutiny and attacks just by being public and saying something about someone else’s behavior. Men have used these shame-silencing techniques against women for years. And you’re doing it anonymously, which is even worse.

    Anyway, thanks for playing. We have a new commenting rule today, and I think it would be best for you to move on. You have different values. Check out the book by Robert Fulghum to see how the rest of the world operates. I’m really disappointed that I had to say this, man, but I just can’t let the bullshit fly anymore without saying something. I said something, and you clearly disagree with me. Thanks for playing, and best of luck in your endeavors.

  30. If I sound like I’m angry, it’s because I am. Just so disappointing. How can we ever bridge the gender divide if men don’t “man up?”

  31. It’s one thing to talk about women (in general) being either ugly or good-looking on a post like this, but talking about individual commenters’ looks is getting into a bad area.

    If you think TZ, or Byron’s wife, or any individual woman, is not good-looking, it’s irrelevant. We should accept that everyone has different tastes – I’m pretty “meh” about Angelina Jolie, for instance – and if someone you are talking to is not to your taste, keep that shit to yourself. There are lots of people I don’t think are all that, but I don’t go around telling them so, because, well, it’s just a douchey thing to say. Partly because I may not be all that myself. But mostly because devaluing women based on their looks is just some caveman shit that we need to evolve past. If someone’s not hot to you, fine, no one’s asking you to date her. Someone else will think she’s hot, and she’ll also have value which goes beyond the surface appearance.

  32. There are lots of people I don’t think are all that, but I don’t go around telling them so…

    Hey Eurasian, was that sentence aimed at me?? Do you have something to say to me?!!

  33. King,

    I googled you:

    http://www.bodybuilders.com/kamali.htm

    Mr. King Kamali, we all think you look fine. Even if we thought you were ugly, we wouldn’t say so to your face.

    Eurasian:

    “But mostly because devaluing women based on their looks is just some caveman shit that we need to evolve past. ”

    That’s exactly what it is.

    Do you remember the Banana Conference announcement over the blogosphere? At the first conference, they had women bloggers talking about the shit that they go through, how guys google them and then try to shame them with the “ugly” insults. What irks me about the anonymity thing is that guys themselves are too scared to pull these insults in real life, but they go out of their way to do it online. That’s the kind of behavior that we need to get rid of. As King said, it disparages the disparager more than the victim.

  34. That was it! It was Reuben Fine, not Rubenstein. In my defense, they rhyme!

    Lol, it’s kinda hard to remember the names, unless it’s one of the famous names.

    What an awesome book. The thing is that if you don’t aren’t familiar with the endings, you need to think…”hmm, how do I mate with these pieces against that one?” This book breaks it down.

    Actually, I haven’t really cracked the BCE book open yet. I started with the Jesus de la Villa book because it was lighter to carry around, and it seemed quite newbie friendly. :)

  35. It was bad taste for Cho Seung Hui to make that veiled threat on Byron’s family and to have used looks to summarily diminish the worth of the ideas of that other chick whose book Byrin was discussing, just because he was on the verge of yet another mental breakdown or lapse in medication, and needed to soothe his butthurt and feel good again by putting down people.

    Now Response on the other hand wants to be a dirty fighter. The problem is, he’s also timid and cowardly. If you want to fight dirty, you should be the biggest bastiche ever, that will only increase your prestige. You don’t fight dirty by taking cheapshots and then ducking for cover, that is an invitation for collective retribution. Be a LION, not a chicken.

  36. If you think TZ, or Byron’s wife, or any individual woman, is not good-looking, it’s irrelevant. We should accept that everyone has different tastes – I’m pretty “meh” about Angelina Jolie, for instance – and if someone you are talking to is not to your taste, keep that shit to yourself. There are lots of people I don’t think are all that, but I don’t go around telling them so, because, well, it’s just a douchey thing to say. Partly because I may not be all that myself. But mostly because devaluing women based on their looks is just some caveman shit that we need to evolve past. If someone’s not hot to you, fine, no one’s asking you to date her. Someone else will think she’s hot, and she’ll also have value which goes beyond the surface appearance.”

    I learned to comment on people’s appearances from gossiping women :(

  37. Point understood about the yea-or-nea, but a good salesman always manages to survive. Think about these guys on Wall Street. That’s their game, and they’ve mastered it. urb4n could sell ice to an eskimo.

    First he has to convince the Eskimo that they need to buy ice in the first place, and then he has to convince them that they need to buy it from him, and not from another salesman! The first move advantage is only relevant relative to other salesmen. :)

    I’ve found that most people usually end up with someone relatively similar to them–and I don’t say this in terms of superiority or inferiority, but just one of difference. Bill Clinton would never ever marry a…say, Kim Kardashian…even though most people would say that Kim Kardashian is quite attractive…both Clinton and Kim are both in the top 10%. Princess Di would never marry a Brad Pitt, nor would Brad Pitt go for a Princess Di, even though they’re both at the top. So I don’t know if the point is to define what’s best, but rather to make the right match.

    Since the genders weight certain qualities differently, I’d put my money on Kim Kardashian, if Clinton’s only choices were between her and say, Reno. Brad Pitt is not really (in)famous like Kim, so I’ll use Charlie Sheen. I’d put my money on him being chosen by Princess Di if the choice was limited to him, and Joe the 5’6”, 9-to-5 accountant commoner who dedicates his spare time to helping poor kids.
    However, all these folks were/are fortunate in that there are plenty of options for them at the top 10%. They can find what they’re looking for without having to lower their standards significantly.

  38. I learned to comment on people’s appearances from gossiping women

    To be fair, none of the women commenters have displayed that behaviour here. :)

  39. When people make the statement “the woman chooses” it does not mean that women and only women choose or have the final say or choice. What it means is that the average female will have more suitors than the average male.

    Think about it. Will you sleep with Angelina Jolie if you saw on her intimate parts a nasty, weeping, smelly sore that may be a sign of AIDS? I think not…

  40. “To be fair, none of the women commenters have displayed that behaviour here. ”

    No, I meant I learned it in real life. O_O

  41. Notty:

    “First he has to convince the Eskimo that they need to buy ice in the first place, and then he has to convince them that they need to buy it from him, and not from another salesman! The first move advantage is only relevant relative to other salesmen.”

    Sure, but he’s a great salesman. You’ve heard him talk on podcast. Extremely eloquent.

    A point that I didn’t make above (that I was going to but somehow glossed over) is that many will buy somewhere. That is to say that if you’re hitting on an attractive woman who is a lesbian, you’re never going to make headway no matter what. But if you’re hitting on a woman who likes men, she may in fact be looking for a man, which means that you’re selling the right thing.

    “Brad Pitt is not really (in)famous like Kim, so I’ll use Charlie Sheen. I’d put my money on him being chosen by Princess Di if the choice was limited to him, and Joe the 5’6”, 9-to-5 accountant commoner who dedicates his spare time to helping poor kids.”

    Let’s leave out the 5’6…it’s not fair to say 5’6 because there are plenty of accountants (most?) who are taller, and Princess Di happened to be taller than Prince Charles while wearing heels, and even that was awkward. I think she was around 5’10. Let’s also assume that the accountant does pretty well, since there are also quite a few accountants who make over…say, $150k. Diana comes from money and you wouldn’t expect her to be compatible with a guy from a totally different background.

    Knowing how she reacted to Charles’ affair, and given all these new descriptors for Joe, I’d say she’d choose Joe over Charlie. In fact, I don’t think she’d date anyone from Hollywood. She wasn’t comfortable with the let-loose type of lifestyle, which basically describes just about every Hollywood actor who has made it.

  42. No, I meant I learned it in real life. O_O

    I know. :) Just wanted to make the point that the female commenters here have been good in that regard, so the guys who went there first don’t even have the excuse that they were doing it ‘tit-for-tat’ style.

  43. Good salesmen understand human psychology and how different products will appeal to different people. They will understand how public perception and awareness of the product shapes reception. They will see how far “salesmanship” itself can go in influencing individuals. They understand that prestigious products are for prestigious people, and what is easily available is also easily disposable. Good salesmen understand what role timing plays in making the sale, and they understand how their acts affect their reputation and future success.

    Good salesmen understand a lot of things that PUAs don’t because PUAs don’t go anywhere near to challenging the limits of human potential.

    Give me an example of PUA instruction and I will give you an example of how it is lousy compared to real life experiences.

  44. A point that I didn’t make above (that I was going to but somehow glossed over) is that many will buy somewhere. That is to say that if you’re hitting on an attractive woman who is a lesbian, you’re never going to make headway no matter what. But if you’re hitting on a woman who likes men, she may in fact be looking for a man, which means that you’re selling the right thing.

    Granted, a woman is generally looking for a guy that satisfies several non-negotiable characteristics, not just any man that will take her. Sure, the same can be said for guys, but most guys are seldom in the position where a woman is actually trying to sell herself to him.

    Let’s leave out the 5’6…it’s not fair to say 5’6 because there are plenty of accountants (most?) who are taller, and Princess Di happened to be taller than Prince Charles while wearing heels, and even that was awkward. I think she was around 5’10. Let’s also assume that the accountant does pretty well, since there are also quite a few accountants who make over…say, $150k.

    The 5’6″ is because I’m trying to make a point about what each gender tends to value, so it’s very relevant. :) As for the > $150K, I was thinking more of your typical dead end position bean counter that probably peaks at 70K? We can change the career to your average computer geek and make it a real underdog, though. :)

    Anyway, I just think that when it comes to what each gender weights the most, there can only be so much compromise. Often, the qualities that we SAY should matter most, are not what end up mattering most in the actual decision.

  45. “I know. Just wanted to make the point that the female commenters here have been good in that regard, so the guys who went there first don’t even have the excuse that they were doing it ‘tit-for-tat’ style.”

    Yeah, those guys were really lousy +_+’

  46. The Cantonese have a great saying when it comes to seducing women: you have to know what you have to offer.

    Understanding what you have to offer is more important than developing a theory of praxeology based on PUA dogma.

  47. ok, how about this scenario- Your dating an AF and she finds out that all your exes were WFs that looked like Rosie Odonnel. Do you think she has any right to be kinda grossed out by who you went out with? Just answer yes, or no.

  48. ^
    If I was an AM, and I had reasonable access to BFs, AFs, or LFs BBWs then I think she might be justified in wondering why I would go for WF’s exclusively.

  49. “ok, how about this scenario- Your dating an AF and she finds out that all your exes were WFs that looked like Rosie Odonnel. Do you think she has any right to be kinda grossed out by who you went out with? Just answer yes, or no.”

    Ok I will bite. Yes.

  50. Good salesmen understand a lot of things that PUAs don’t because PUAs don’t go anywhere near to challenging the limits of human potential.

    Give me an example of PUA instruction and I will give you an example of how it is lousy compared to real life experiences.

    Ok, I’ll bite, Raguel. :)

    Pretty simple player concept: “Get her life story”. Or the way one of my favorite old posters put it:

    “it’s very basic really. instead of talking about bullshit with a chick or your porsche or your yacht or your country club membership… ask her about herself.
    what she wants what she likes what she thinks she needs what she deserves what
    she had in the past what she wants to repeat what she wants to avoid what
    scares her what makes her happy what makes her feel sexy… “

  51. “Get her life story”

    But of course, that has to happen at the right time and in the right setting. There is a time to get into a person’s life story, but then you have to know when you’re asking too much too soon.
    (The strange interrogator mistake)

    Or when when you begin to sound creepy, like an identity thief or something
    (The stalker mistake)

    And you have to have the instinct to know when you’re engaging in an obviously lopsided information exchange, where you ask a lot of questions, but seem to volunteer very little about yourself.
    (The, “I think I’m your therapist” mistake)

    The Advice is good, but in the end it’s only as good as the person who is interpreting it. If someone is clumsy with women, communication, and identifying limits, then they can very easily take good advice and still totally screw it up in the end. If these guys had good instincts with women in the first place then thy probably wouldn’t be asking for PUA advice. The REAL problems often go much deeper than technique.

  52. Notty:
    “Actually, I haven’t really cracked the BCE book open yet. I started with the Jesus de la Villa book because it was lighter to carry around, and it seemed quite newbie friendly.”

    Yeah, you’ve gotta be pretty serious to sit down with Reuben Fine’s book. That book has everything.

    Have you seen the series by Yasser Seirawan? It’s pretty advanced stuff but reads really easily.

  53. Totally agree, King. That’s where smoothly leading a conversation where you want it to go comes in– you’re not playing 20 questions.

    The poster was responding to one of the “AFCs” that was trying to learn the ropes.

    If these guys had good instincts with women in the first place then thy probably wouldn’t be asking for PUA advice.

    Well, some good guys do need the help. A lot probably are like the stereotypical PUA wannabe who’s introverted, shy, etc. Then you have guys who have good female friends, but can’t get a girl to save their lives.

    The REAL problems often go much deeper than technique.

    Well, to me that’s more than a technique. It reveals a mindset, IMO.

  54. Have you seen the series by Yasser Seirawan? It’s pretty advanced stuff but reads really easily.

    I actually browsed some of his books at Borders (R.I.P.), and also Yusupov, but I pretty much went the cheap way via the used book store, and they didn’t have those. I do have a bunch of older chess books with the English notation, lol. Once you get past that, it’s not that bad. :)

  55. Okay…. I just wrote in the other thread this post. I didn’t know this thread has hit 62 posts from where I last read. I don’t have time to read all of that right now. I’ll just C&P this and hope it isn’t too jaunting to where it currently stands or looks wrong by not reading what was said earlier.

    Now, I just had an idea that just come to my head. This is definitely off topic and perhaps I should post this half on the “first move” thread, but I want to keep where I got this idea from and treat it more as direct statement to bigWowo than a new conversation point. I was about to type “ad hominen nature of something as insulting a person by looks ” rather than the above. This make me realize this is a good point I can make here on that debate that you probably not aware you just demonstrate. One more example of powers that women have that men don’t. Sympathy. Most of the time in society, when we see a women ruined or destitute, we are much more likely to be sympathetic and willing to come to aid that person. For a man, he is much more likely to be told that he deserved it or to own up to his mistakes. The natural social convention goes to the women, not to the men. The ability to approach a girl and make the first move is not the correct example. Because this is not a chess game, this is a salesmanship game. You did counter that a good salesman can make it his game, but it doesn’t make the market. What happens on average make it either a seller’s maker or a buyer’s market. I think I will copy and past this over to the other post.

  56. Notty:

    “The 5’6″ is because I’m trying to make a point about what each gender tends to value, so it’s very relevant. As for the > $150K, I was thinking more of your typical dead end position bean counter that probably peaks at 70K? We can change the career to your average computer geek and make it a real underdog, though.
    Anyway, I just think that when it comes to what each gender weights the most, there can only be so much compromise. Often, the qualities that we SAY should matter most, are not what end up mattering most in the actual decision.”

    I think if you asked Di, she would say that she wanted a guy who was of similar background. I think she’d probably write off most Americans since she was British. A guy at 70k would be of a different background.

    I agree that there can only be so much compromise. Most women won’t compromise on height/money–they’ll want a guy who is at least as tall and has a job that pays well. Most men won’t compromise on weight/looks.

    Raguel:

    You wrote:

    “Now Response on the other hand wants to be a dirty fighter. The problem is, he’s also timid and cowardly. If you want to fight dirty, you should be the biggest bastiche ever, that will only increase your prestige. You don’t fight dirty by taking cheapshots and then ducking for cover, that is an invitation for collective retribution. Be a LION, not a chicken.”

    I’ve kind of cooled off a bit and realized what’s going on. I stand by the “anonymous coward” rule, but even more significant is the misogyny. If you reread his attack on TZ, it was indignation, like “Oh my god, this woman actually has the temerity to speak out and be proud of who she is? Against a man? Who the hell does she think she is?” His thinking is probably that cheap shot or not, at least he threw one at a woman and that she deserved it. Classic sexism.

    Remember when Hillary ran? All these guys were hurling insults at her and saying she deserved it for stepping out of the kitchen. And this is a woman who is far more accomplished than most of us! We activists–especially those of us who know the shortfalls of certain PUA schools–need to speak out against this.

    That was my realization with both of these guys–we just have different values. There’s no use in us challenging each other because our foundations are entirely different.

  57. Byron, that’s a pretty good analysis of what Response was doing with Tz. Fuck it, it’s so lousy. These guys are not lions, they’re CHICKENS. I’m no saint myself and I am unwise, but these guys make me resolve to be a better person.

    ROFL

  58. I’ve kind of cooled off a bit and realized what’s going on. I stand by the “anonymous coward” rule, but even more significant is the misogyny. If you reread his attack on TZ, it was indignation, like “Oh my god, this woman actually has the temerity to speak out and be proud of who she is? Against a man? Who the hell does she think she is?” His thinking is probably that cheap shot or not, at least he threw one at a woman and that she deserved it. Classic sexism.

    I didn’t really pay too much attention to it, but I actually read it “See? TZ can get away with being arrogant because she’s a woman, but if it was a guy…” etc, etc. If it was that, then he was definitely missing TZ’s point.

    The way I saw it was that the HBD dork brought up looks first when he attacked Byron and his wife. TZ was just responding in kind, and sticking her neck out for someone else when she didn’t have to. She wasn’t trying to toot her own horn.

  59. Get the life story of a chick you’ve just met?

    How then do you indicate to her (or any girl else) that you’re mostly interested in a mutual good time?

  60. More on the topic of first moves:

    Why Don’t WOmen Ask Men Out on First Dates?

    First Time Risky Relationship Initiatives

    First time risky initiatives are direct and unambiguous requests that have not been made previously, and that will either be clearly accepted or rejected. Because risky initiatives are unambiguous, they cannot be misinterpreted. [snip]

    Nonverbal Proceptive Signaling

    In contrast, proceptive relationship initiation signals are typically open to various interpretations. [snip] The potential ambiguity of proceptive signals leaves the signaler less open to direct personal rejection since such initiations can be seen as either an initiation, or as just very friendly behavior. [snip]

  61. They call it “proceptive signalling” now? Lol, I thought we just used to call them “hints”.

    XD

    I just think this is no good. Makes things out to be more complex and exotic than they really are.

  62. Get the life story of a chick you’ve just met?

    Well, you don’t start asking deep questions the very minute you meet her. You start with casual conversation, build rapport, and find different segues into getting to know about her.

    Obviously, she needs to have enough time and interest in having a conversation with a stranger, and you need to do your best to try and extend that time by making it interesting and taking the lead.

    How then do you indicate to her (or any girl else) that you’re mostly interested in a mutual good time?

    Well, you’ve gotta play it by ear. When you feel the time is right, you can inquire as to their status. If they didn’t ask me if I had a girlfriend, I would say stuff like, “Wow, your boyfriend must blah blah blah,” depending on what we were talking about. I mean, women are not stupid, they know there’s an implied question there.

    Anyway, usually if they were interested, at some poitn they’d ask they’d ask if I had a gf, or broach the topic in some way. To let them know what I was all about I would answer with stuff like “I don’t have a girlfriend”, “I have a few good friends; not looking to date seriously right now”, or sarcastically “I can’t find a date to save my life”, when I’ve just obviously ignored a call from “a girl that I know,” in favor of our conversation.

    Obviously, if a girl still agrees to hang out with you again one-on-one in intimate settings after hearing that, then she’s also looking for a good time (or maybe looking to tame you).

  63. Haha, Raguel, it’s a psychology mag! They HAVE to make it sound scientific and nerdy. :) I’m surprised they didn’t coin a greek or latin term for it.

  64. Lol, ok, you win. I’m having trouble with this discussion because I can’t bend my head around the idea of discussing PUA methods in isolation of context, which is, quite honestly, my obvious failure to not have asked for context in the first place. +_+’

    And even if I did ask for context I would only end up masturbating mentally because quite frankly I think I’m out of my depth. +_+’

    It’s like me saying “If you want to get her panties SOAKING then do this and this and this (insert gratuitous sexual descriptions here)” and I wouldn’t necessarily be wrong but what I’ve just said isn’t necessarily the best thing to do either.

    Lol, see I’m having trouble explaining even this. +_+’

  65. It’s like me saying “If you want to get her panties SOAKING then do this and this and this (insert gratuitous sexual descriptions here)” and I wouldn’t necessarily be wrong but what I’ve just said isn’t necessarily the best thing to do either.

    I know what you mean. The way I look at it is that you gotta find what works best for you, based on what you want to do, what you’re willing to do, etc.

    Still, in general, I think that the stuff from the early players beats anything the mainstream has ever put forward. It was as brutally honest a look into dating/mating dynamics as a guy was going to get at the time from most people.

    For example, one thing I learned from the early PUA stuff that my jock friend didn’t teach me was that I didn’t’ need to my money on dinners and crap for the privilege of getting to know a woman; she actually has to earn that privilege (imagine that!). I also learned that you don’t need to wait days or weeks to get sexual with a woman. I probably would have never arrived at those conclusions on my own, because I still bought into some of the mainstream/traditional thought.

  66. Take a good look at what the PUA scene is like now, though. Are you defending it based on your nostalgia for its halcyon days?

  67. And I’m not trying to be particularly pointed with this or anything, but up until now you’ve been talking about the “ideal” of PUA while pretty much glossing over the reality of it as experienced by people who’ve been in the scene. I mean, of course, the fucked up stuff and the pathetic stuff that PUAs don’t see or talk about because of some kind of mental lacuna.

  68. And I’m not trying to be particularly pointed with this or anything, but up until now you’ve been talking about the “ideal” of PUA while pretty much glossing over the reality of it as experienced by people who’ve been in the scene. I mean, of course, the fucked up stuff and the pathetic stuff that PUAs don’t see or talk about because of some kind of mental lacuna.

    Hey Raguel,

    I think you’ve just given me carte blanche to rant, lol. My position on the current scene is that after roughly 2002, the place was made up of the blind leading the blind.

    If you were to take the time to go through the archives, you may notice a very different vibe. The AFC presence wasn’t overwhelming—so the player to AFC (or nerd-with-an-opinion) ratio was good, which in turn meant that the signal-to-noise ratio.

    The focus was also different. The only commercial guy at the time was Ross Jeffries, and the real players were not interested in selling a product. They were interested in talking shop with other players, and trading knowledge.

    By the time I found the Fighting 44s I was already a scene hater, but have always respected the effectiveness of the old stuff. When people criticize PUA as something that does not work, though, they don’t make that distinction. I guess I see that as misguided.

    I really have nothing to gain by convincing people, btw, I’m just pointing it out in the interest of discussion. When folks here dismiss PUA as something that produces negligible to no results, the conversation focuses exclusively on the nerds and their silly antics. However, if there was at least some admission that there is a certain brutal effectiveness to it—and I think that it would force people to confront some tough things about the nature of the mating game.

  69. The thing about “game” is if you had to teach a romantically awkward friend, that you really cared about, how to be better with women, it would be possible to help him. However, it would mean taking a LOT of time talking with him, demonstrating things to him, and guiding him into situations where he could apply a few lessons in real life. In reality, it would almost certainly take over a year. You just don’t reverse a lifetime of doing things all overnight. This would become a MAJOR time commitment for you, and you’d need to be pretty consistent and perceptive personality type. But if you really were determined to help this guy, you could make a big difference, if you were willing to make a big sacrifice to do it.

    And that, in a nutshell, is why pay for PUA doesn’t work. The real deal would take so much time, and individual instruction, and analysis, that it would be impossible to make any real money at it. You’d need to charge $500 a week (every week) for 2 years. That’s $26,000 a year or $52,000 for two years training.

    BUT nobody wants to pay that much! So instead, PUA tries to compress everything you need to learn into a weekend bootcamp, or maybe a week or so of training. It can’t be one on one, so a one-size-fits-all approach must be adopted to a great degree.
    It has to be done in a way that matches the economic reality of the trade—or in other words, it’s the best they can do for the time and money. And if you walk away with a few new ideas, and some added confidence, then they feel that they’ve don their job.

    But in reality, people come to the game with a lot of personal baggage. Some of it is deep psychological stuff that has shaped their self image and self value. Some of it is very real inherited personality and temperament stuff that has been passed down. components to it. Some of it is cultural, and some of it is tied to birth order and family of origin issues. It’s not just a matter of, just do X and the girls will love you! It’s complicated, it’s individual, and it takes time to sort out.

    And usually the guys who get involved in PUA fall under two types

    1) Narcissists who are looking for easy and foolproof ways to score more often, not realizing that the real trouble is that women simply see them for what they are.

    2) Awkward guys who are not naturally good with women and who need to do a lot of work to get to the place were they can be significantly better.

    The first group is hopeless, the second group is very expensive to fix.

  70. Check out some of the PUAs online, and think about how many of them fit under the Desperation Morality code. Think about how many of them act like anonymous cowards and see nothing wrong with it–they don’t even WANT to rise above that because they see nothing wrong with it. It’s not about the technique, it’s about (as King says) who they really are and what values they embody deep in the core.

    (granted, notty, I have no idea what PUA was like pre-2002. I’m just going with what I see now.)

  71. What do you guys think about her?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bigfanta/Kezia_Noble

    A female dating guru who turns guys into PUAs. I’m sure some of you heard of her.

    She said she’s into Asian guys, if you want to think highly of her.

    She once said most female dating coaches are feminists, and are happy to take your money and dissuade you from being a “man”, that is, getting laid as much as possible.

    Again, western civilization at its finest.

    “Narcissists who are looking for easy and foolproof ways to score more often, not realizing that the real trouble is that women simply see them for what they are”.

    Most Alpha types guys are prone to narcissism. How about refining one’s game as the PUA industry likes to emphasize?

  72. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yhNi5OU8FY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5goLSun157E
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqVmB5eioxs

    ^ Why, why yes of course! First we learn why women act like bitches (her words not mine) towards men who approach them. Then, we learn that the way to handle this to give her even MORE attention, pretend like what she just did was absolutely CHARMING, and then reward and praise her for behaving like that towards you. Then, go right in into your complicated 10 minute “DHV” stories with your hands flapping about you smooth operator. You want something from her and you’ll get it in no time.

    Another grifter I mean Pick Up Artist coach who takes money from men and gives pure unadulterated bullshit in return.

  73. @King:

    I agree with your larger point regarding PUA bootcamps as a silver bullet, and regarding some (ok, probably most) of them as a scam. From what I’ve seen, though, mainstream advice is still worse. Which is part of the reason I supported Kwak’s decision to try an APB bootcamp way back when, even though I am not, and have never been a fan of APB.

    I also agree that it takes a lot of commitment. However, if a guy lacks access to a mentor, he can still make a commitment to himself and put in the work needed to get experience. The good information is still available in the archives, and it’s completely free. Those who have the grit and the will to put in the work out there in the real world will benefit from it.

    But in reality, people come to the game with a lot of personal baggage. Some of it is deep psychological stuff that has shaped their self image and self value. Some of it is very real inherited personality and temperament stuff that has been passed down. components to it. Some of it is cultural, and some of it is tied to birth order and family of origin issues. It’s not just a matter of, just do X and the girls will love you! It’s complicated, it’s individual, and it takes time to sort out.

    On the topic of personal baggage, you could confidently say that most people in the world have some personal issue or kink; no one is perfect. Yet, I think people can and do get together happily despite that, as they work on their issues (or not). :) Also, despite what some try to imply around these parts, not everyone who turns to PUA is as fucked up as a George Sodini.

    And, yes, some of it is individual, but there are also plenty of things that can be generalized to a point. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have platitudes like “be confident” thrown around.

    And usually the guys who get involved in PUA fall under two types
    Narcissists who are looking for easy and foolproof ways to score more often, not realizing that the real trouble is that women simply see them for what they are.

    I’ll just say this, since we’re talking in generalities: Women may see what they’re all about, and that they’re not a good long term investment, but many are more than happy to let that type of guy be Mr. Right Now. Why should a guy not want to be Mr. Right Now once in a while?

    2) Awkward guys who are not naturally good with women and who need to do a lot of work to get to the place were they can be significantly better.
    The first group is hopeless, the second group is very expensive to fix.

    Awkward guys can actually work on their own if they have the grit to take failure, and turn it into experience, but they need useful information.

    You’re right when you say it’s complicated: there’s another other group of guys that you forgot:

    3) Guys who can make a lot of best female friends, but who are not seen as a romantic option. They’re not necessarily awkward, they may just be bland, “too nice”, or just not seen as sexual, etc.

  74. @Chr:

    I think I’ve heard of her, but her wikipedia page looks like a copy ad.

    And from what Raguel linked, she sounds like yet another Mystery ripoff who jumped on the ‘natural game (TM)’ bandwagon. If I was still in the game, I wouldn’t be interested in looking into it any further.

    Why don’t you try some of her techniques and report on how they go? That’d be oldschool. :)

  75. In any business, there are disgruntled customers. Can we say the same about the PUA service industry?

    I’m wondering how many guys here have actually gone the PUA route, and saw what it was to make any lasting judgment.

    APB says Asian guys are overrepresented as PUAs, just like they are in Harvard and Yale. You really have to see it to make such a general sweeping statement.

  76. Check out some of the PUAs online, and think about how many of them fit under the Desperation Morality code. Think about how many of them act like anonymous cowards and see nothing wrong with it–they don’t even WANT to rise above that because they see nothing wrong with it. It’s not about the technique, it’s about (as King says) who they really are and what values they embody deep in the core.

    (granted, notty, I have no idea what PUA was like pre-2002. I’m just going with what I see now.)

    Well, I’d say that you and King would probably consider any player amoral/immoral. But what I’m saying is that many women apparently aren’t bothered enough by the values that players embody to jump in the sack with them—and do it repeatedly, because apparently, they compensate with other things those women find valuable.

  77. Taking a page from another alleged scamster Robert Kiyosaki, Poor Dad and Rich Dad guru, I think using a PUA to empower yourself as a businessman by using the techniques from these so called casanovas might give you the double benefit of being a marketeer and women wooer. You could at least give yourself a tax write off for your business. Would you rather pay Uncle Sam so he could use that money to fight ceaseless wars and bail out the evil corporations, or a PUA who will teach you the art of manipulation? It’s your take!

  78. This should read:

    Well, I’d say that you and King would probably consider any player amoral/immoral. But what I’m saying is that many women apparently aren’t bothered enough by the values that players embody to choose not to jump in the sack with them—and do it repeatedly, because apparently, they compensate with other things those women find valuable.

  79. “Well, I’d say that you and King would probably consider any player amoral/immoral. But what I’m saying is that many women apparently aren’t bothered enough by the values that players embody to jump in the sack with them—and do it repeatedly, because apparently, they compensate with other things those women find valuable.”

    You are defending something that has not existed since 2002, which is nine years ago.

  80. “I think using a PUA to empower yourself as a businessman by using the techniques from these so called casanovas might give you the double benefit of being a marketeer and women wooer. You could at least give yourself a tax write off for your business.”

    Good luck trying explain that deduction in the IRS audit that it would trigger.

  81. “Good luck trying explain that deduction in the IRS audit that it would trigger”.

    And what kind of benefit do businesses really get when they hire “consultants”? Not much except a tax break on their earnings.

  82. It’s not about defending the pre-2002 stuff so much. I think that dismissing the current PUA crap as and leaving it at that is, I don’t know…incomplete?

    If PUA has and has never had anything that works, then you can safely say that everything is alright in the world as it is, and those men should just go back to doing what never quite worked. The real players, however, will keep doing what they do, and nobody will really bat an eye.

    However, when you consider that perhaps there is something buried beneath all the new crap that actually works, and why guys who used to believe in being decent would turn to it, then you can start asking questions.

    At least I’ve gotten you guys to consider that there might actually be something to the old stuff. It’s a start. :)

  83. And what kind of benefit do businesses really get when they hire “consultants”? Not much except a tax break on their earnings.

    Nevertheless, a deduction taken for “Asian Playboy’s Bootcamp” is not likely to be seen as a legitimate business expense.

  84. ROFL at “gub’mint”!

    “At least I’ve gotten you guys to consider that there might actually be something to the old stuff. It’s a start. :)

    Hahahaaa… No!!! :p :p :p I refuse…. :p

    You mentioned some “brutally effective” stuff though, could you share some examples with us. I certainly would like to know. :D

    Unfortunately, “asking her life story” doesn’t count. I’ve never been in a single situation where “asking her life story” would have made the deal. >8[

  85. Oh, I have no doubt that there must be SOME helpful ideas in PUA teaching. If it was 100% crap, then nobody would get into it at all. But, todays version of PUA is mixed with so much crap, that effectively, it doesn’t make much difference wether you’re eating a pure crap sandwich or a crap allow sandwich.

    But also there is a placebo effect that can be associated with any educational process. There simply in a big difference between a guy who knows that he has no plan, and a guy who has just been told that he holds the secrets to success.

    If you could convince someone that a wooden nickel with unexplained magical powers was the secret to being good with women, that guy is likely to actually do better with women because:

    a) He’s now out meeting more women to try out the nickel on
    b) He’s much more confident, now that he possess the secret
    c) His failures are no longer his own, but are problems with the nickel

    All of these things will appear to make the magical nickel work.

  86. To add to that, eating a crap sandwich with mayonnaise is still eating crap. The substance hasn’t changed.

  87. You mentioned some “brutally effective” stuff though, could you share some examples with us. I certainly would like to know.

    Unfortunately, “asking her life story” doesn’t count. I’ve never been in a single situation where “asking her life story” would have made the deal.

    Well, for me, knowing what is “her story” is fundamental. Otherwise you’re just throwing stuff around blindly hoping something sticks.

    But I will say that, for example, taking a girl away from her friends’ prying eyes is very effective. Subtly implying there is competition for you is effective—showing up with a girl hanging off your arm is even more effective. What Ross Jeffries incorporated from NLP, which is known as “anchoring”, is very effective. Stuff like the “Natural Woman Pattern” can be just as effective.

    And a lot of that stuff is based upon fundamental understandings—it’s not about the technique itself, but the principle of why it works.

    Ever read Cialdini’s stuff on influence? Same idea. You can read the examples of how the principles are used, but what matters is the principles and how to use your creativity to leverage them, that’s all.

  88. @King/Byron,

    I think that the traditional dating script sandwich, the stuff that gets peddled by everyone, has more crap per pound than the current PUA ouvre.

    Still, just for the sake of argument, let’s agree that today’s PUA stuff is a 100% ineffective. Regardless of whether my claim that the old PUA stuff works, would you agree that there is something to what real players do that works very well and flies in the face of traditional advice, or anything else offered? What if decent men finally found a way to copy these guys?

    I guess my point is that if you agree with me, then you would not be able to criticize it and dismiss it solely on the notion that it doesn’t work. You’d have to get into the real tough and contentious stuff about why it works and why the men generally get a pass.

  89. This should read: . You’d have to get into the real tough and contentious stuff about why it works and why the men who engage in this behavior generally get a pass.

  90. Notty,

    ^Isn’t the reasoning the same thing as King’s magic nickel (above)?

    a) He’s now out meeting more women to try out the nickel on
    b) He’s much more confident, now that he possess the secret
    c) His failures are no longer his own, but are problems with the nickel

  91. Ok. What I don’t get is this. If in fact PUA philosophy is about not being in a relationship and banging different women. If you look at APB’s philosophy, it goes against it saying he hopes his students use his methods to obtain a long term relationship? Doesn’t make much sense to me. I went on his site once and got turned off by seeing how much WF worship there is on there. Seeing that told me that’s not something I needed to look at.

  92. I went on his site once and got turned off by seeing how much WF worship there is on there.

    The WWW on his url stands for (White Woman Worship!)

    Asian Playboy has been mouthing those words about long-term relationships for years, as a cover, but 98% of what he teaches is about one (1) night stands. What kind of long-term relationship starts out with your potential girlfriend posted on a sexual conquest scoreboard with weekly reports on a website that highlights how far you got with her?

  93. King – So what do you recommend guys to do, if they have problems with dating since PUA is not the solution?

    Moro – I don’t think there is a shortcut when it comes to scoring with women. I think if you want to have fun with money to burn, then give PUA a try just for the heck of it. But I think most guys sign up because they are in desperation mode, and need long term help. They see PUA as the solution.

    “Still, just for the sake of argument, let’s agree that today’s PUA stuff is a 100% ineffective. Regardless of whether my claim that the old PUA stuff works, would you agree that there is something to what real players do that works very well and flies in the face of traditional advice, or anything else offered? What if decent men finally found a way to copy these guys?”

  94. @ King – Well, go a little farther… explain “trouble with dating.”

    There are guys who want to meet women, but don’t know where, or because they are shy or busy and don’t know where to start. I think this sums up many guys out there. To you, going to a PUA for help seems like the wrong direction, so what should they do? Or perhaps you think guys who join the PUA crowd have a different motive other than what I’ve said?

    I want you to watch this video at the ending segments about dating advice/coaches. ABCs is featured in it, and they don’t mention their PUA thing. What do you think?

    http://www.abcsofattraction.com/press_colu.php

  95. @Chr – Moro – I don’t think there is a shortcut when it comes to scoring with women. I think if you want to have fun with money to burn, then give PUA a try just for the heck of it. But I think most guys sign up because they are in desperation mode, and need long term help. They see PUA as the solution.

    “Still, just for the sake of argument, let’s agree that today’s PUA stuff is a 100% ineffective. Regardless of whether my claim that the old PUA stuff works, would you agree that there is something to what real players do that works very well and flies in the face of traditional advice, or anything else offered? What if decent men finally found a way to copy these guys?”

    But why would you want to copy these guys? I may be in the minority but I can’t think of anything as empty as going into your fifties doing nothing but trying to score with mostly low value girls in bars or clubs. The thing is, many of these guys see PUA as a solution to getting in a relationship with that dream girl they’ve longed for since puberty. The reality is, there is nothing you can read that makes you any better with women. You learn how to be good with years of experience. The best thing you can do is get out there. Make some new friends. Do activities. Don’t just worry about making friends with the hottest girl but also make friends with women you may not be interested in and guys. Most people I know meet their mates through people they know. It’s all there. No need to pay money for it. I’m sure there are some who this stuff can really help but I feel it’s a select few.

  96. @ Chr… OK, but remember, you asked for it.

    You can’t start with meeting women.
    You have to start with your life.

    [1]
    The biggest question you should ask yourself is, “am I happy?” and if they answer is no, or maybe, then to be honest, you’re not ready to meet a woman, because believe me, she’s not going to change that. Not only that, she is going to be close enough to you to truly see who you are, and if you’re not happy and proud of who that is, then she is going to see and feel that too.

    So you have to spend some time, for once in your life, planning your own happiness. Do you like your job? If not, plan on doing something else. Do you have enough friends? Are you popular? Do you do fun things all the time? Why not? Do you try new stuff all the time? Why not?

    If you are sitting home Saturday nights, bored and lonely then adding a girl will only change things for a few weeks. You will soon be boring her, and wondering how you can be loosing her interest so fast! A woman shares your life, and if you don’t have a life, you’re not worth being with.

  97. [2]

    The trick is not just getting a woman, it’s keeping her. And if your’e looking for happiness, then you’ve got to know how to make her happy—how to be a good leader, and be enthusiastic and PASSIONATE about the things you love. If you don’t have those loves and passions you’re not going to be very interesting.

    What can you teach her? What are your strong suits? What new worlds can you introduce her to, that she’s never walked in before? Do you have amazing things to share with her? Little things that will be the magic between you and her? How can you, if you’ve been spending your time bored, lonely, and with nothing to do? When you don’t have a woman that is the time to establish yourself and your life.

    When you can live your life solo, with fun, excitement, and passion that’s when you’re going to be the most attractive to women because you’re going to be a confident and happy person… and it won’t be some fake PUA technique that will fade away when you run out of instructions… It will just be the way that you are.

    Boring single life + woman = boring dating life

  98. [3]
    But once you get into your own passions, THAT is “where you meet women.” There is no sense meeting a woman in a bar if your passion is really opera, or rock climbing. There is no point it meeting women in night clubs if what you really like is dirt biking, camping, or sailing. Why not meet women who already fit into the kinds of things that you are passionate about? You’ll be surprised at how effortless the conversation will be when you’re into the same things.

    But in order to do that, you have to actually have plenty of your own interests. You need to be trying everything, to see what it is that you like doing. Talk to people and ask them about their hobby’s and things they did over the weekend. They may give you some good ideas of things to try out. Get a wide array of experience, go to concerts, learn how to ice skate, take a few dance classes, learn how to surf.

    You’ll be surprised at how many new people you’ll meet. The people who have the bigges group of friends are the ones with the most diverse interests. They seem to know peope from everywhere. People are constantly calling them to come to this even, party, get together, or just hang out.

    All of that comes from concentrating on you, not by concentrating on meeting someone.

  99. [4]
    So really it’s quite natural… you don’t have to meet a girl with some technique, you just have to meet someone new over a game of chess, or renting a kayak, or taking swimming lessons, or at a book club at Barnes and Noble. All you have to do is talk about something that you both are passionate about, and soon you’ll be chatting away, laughing and smiling, refilling her glass. When the night is over you would not have uttered one pre-rehearsed PUA line, not one PUA trick, or maneuver.

    When she walks away from you she’s going to think, “WOW, what a really nice guy!” and she’ll be right! Because you’re not a fake who’s only trying to get into her pants, and doesn’t care about her as a person at all. And the next time you see her, you’ll ask for her number, or if she’d like to get a cup of coffee sometime, just the two of you.

    And a year later the two of you will still have things to talk about, because your relationship was built on real friendship instead of a lie.

  100. You guys, thanks for the comments!

    The PUA sharks should be here shortly to counterargue with their feeding frenzy!

  101. So what do you think Chr? Do you think King’s advice could help you out in your dating life?

    ROFL

  102. I agree with King’s advice generally. However, the problem with platitudes like “be happy with your life first” is that they ignore that there are some lifestyles that are more interesting to the opposite sex than others.

    For example, you could be completely passionate about programming computers, and collecting stamps, and I’d say that the chances of you having to beat women away with a stick are slim to none. I’m sure some of those guys would be able to find a woman, but I’m not so sure that all of them would be happy with the choices of sexual/romantic partners their lifestyle attracts– however passionately happy their lifetstyle makes them.

    So, yeah, the questions like “Are you popular?, Do you do fun things all the time?”, etc, are helpful questions but they are incomplete. They should be, “Are you popular with the type of girl you want?, Are the things you do fun for them too?” I guess those guys could introduce women to the wonderful world of Python programming, and stamp collecting…but I still say that what you’re passionate about does not necessarily lead you to meet the kind of woman you want.

    Also, despite the consistent attempt to portray all these guys as shut-in losers who don’t have friends, the reality is that many guys do have friends, and do have lives they enjoy– except for their lack of luck with the opposite sex in a romantic way. It’s possible to be happy with every aspect your life except your sex/love life.

    Now, make me sorry King. :)

  103. Notty,

    ^Isn’t the reasoning the same thing as King’s magic nickel (above)?

    No. I don’t see how. Maybe I lost you along the way…so let me try again.

    1) Would you agree that there exists such a thing as a ‘player’ in real life? Someone who is very popular with women and that women generally get involved with despite the fact that it may not be in their best long term interests? Someone whose popularity cannot be solely chalked up to his status, his physical attributes or wealth? Someone who relies mostly on charisma?

    2) If, and only if, you agree with #1, what do you guess is the moral makeup of such a person generally?

  104. I with king on this one. If you’re looking for someone long term. The chances are that you’re not going to meet her in a bar.

    If you’re really having trouble finding someone, that’s probably when your friends come in. We look out for each other and we definitely won’t mind giving a helping hand to a needing friend. We would organized a group outing and even prompt the guy how to break the ice.

    I reckon the peoples that needs PUAs are people that needs new friends rather than skills with women.

    I apologise if my sentence doesn’t makpe sense. I had way too much soju and isn’t exactly sober.

  105. For example, you could be completely passionate about programming computers, and collecting stamps, and I’d say that the chances of you having to beat women away with a stick are slim to none. I’m sure some of those guys would be able to find a woman, but I’m not so sure that all of them would be happy with the choices of sexual/romantic partners their lifestyle attracts…

    Well, I understand what your’e saying, but remember, a lot of those assumptions are built on hollywood movie stereotypes. In reality, there are cute girls who are pretty geeky.
    http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/files/1/8/1/2/3/geek-girl.jpg

    I mean… hey, they even go to Star Trek Conventions!
    http://www.grindsoup.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/hot-star-trek-babe.jpg

    http://hotnerdgirl.wordpress.com/about/

    My point is that the idea that cute women have a genetic predisposition to hang around bars instead if libraries, is largely fictional. I grant you, they may not be dressed in a low-cut blouse, a tight mini, and 4-inch heels, but attractive women definitely do exist outside of the regularly scripted locations.

  106. N- you don’t only have to meet girls in bars. In fact, my bread and butter was meeting women while I was out and about during the day.

    King- Those women are not representative of your average geek girl– not even close. Just take an advanced computer science course sometime and compare not only the ratio of guys to girls, but also the physical attractiveness of the girls, to the kind that you would find in a psychology class. :) I’m not talking out of my neck here.

  107. “No. I don’t see how. Maybe I lost you along the way…so let me try again.

    1) Would you agree that there exists such a thing as a ‘player’ in real life? Someone who is very popular with women and that women generally get involved with despite the fact that it may not be in their best long term interests? Someone whose popularity cannot be solely chalked up to his status, his physical attributes or wealth? Someone who relies mostly on charisma?”

    And you think you’ll find these guys spending time on internet message boards?

    “2) If, and only if, you agree with #1, what do you guess is the moral makeup of such a person generally?”

    I don’t know about “moral” makeup, but psychologically, I’d say they’re either of sub-par intelligence, are obsessed with sleeping with women but prefer to use their own hand, and are compulsive pathological liars eager to further the myth of their sexual prowess with women.

  108. “N- you don’t only have to meet girls in bars. In fact, my bread and butter was meeting women while I was out and about during the day.”

    May we see a video of you in action?

  109. First of all, I’m married. Second of all, why should I? I don’t see you asking King or Byron to post a video of themselves in action, yet you take their opinions as a given. May I see one from one of you? :)

    Also, Byron, King and you have spent time on the internet to state your opinion on the subject, and offer your own advice. You all spend time online to discussing things that interest you.

    Why would a player be any different?

  110. Notty,

    You’re right. I misread. My bad. Let me answer your questions.

    1) Would you agree that there exists such a thing as a ‘player’ in real life? Someone who is very popular with women and that women generally get involved with despite the fact that it may not be in their best long term interests? Someone whose popularity cannot be solely chalked up to his status, his physical attributes or wealth? Someone who relies mostly on charisma?”

    And you think you’ll find these guys spending time on internet message boards?

    Very popular with women means, I’m assuming having many, not just one or two, women interested in said guy. If we say such a guy can’t have status, physical attributes, or wealth, then I’d say yes, with a qualifier: these guys exist only among the young, say, 37 or below.

    And the reason is this: at a younger age, women like men based on who they are to become. Young guys have yet to earn status, money, or power, so women have to base their decisions on what a guy will be. You won’t see a 50 year old guy who has done little with his life being popular among women.

    “2) If, and only if, you agree with #1, what do you guess is the moral makeup of such a person generally?”

    I guess it’s bad. I’ve known guys like this. The reason they are popular is because their whole young life is geared towards pretending to be the skilled rock star, poet, or entrepreneur.

    It’s almost like extra-pair copulation.
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/11/alphas-vs-betas/

  111. ^ And sometimes, they are more “fun” in the short term than other guys who might be more stable, but a bit more “boring” or without an “edge”. They generally get a pass, even if they are held up as examples of what not to be, because in the end they don’t “win”, or whatever.

    And, I’m fine with that, really, but I think that these things need to be discussed with a lot more honesty. We, as men are constantly being slagged for our preferences, our behaviors, our failings, but for some reason women get are getting a pass on these things– their behaviour gets explained away as a thing of youth, immaturity, or even being innocent victims, etc.

    There really is a need to talk about both genders preferences and behaviours in an honest way. It can’t all be about men’s shortcomings. Women have their own act to clean up, but you rarely see anyone calling on them to do that– except some guys, who are then dismissed as bitter, can’t-get-a-girlfriend losers.

  112. Very popular with women means, I’m assuming having many, not just one or two, women interested in said guy. If we say such a guy can’t have status, physical attributes, or wealth, then I’d say yes, with a qualifier: these guys exist only among the young, say, 37 or below.

    They exist among the older guys too, but generally they are going to go after age appropriate women. Not an important detail, but just wanted to throw it out there.

  113. Sure, I agree it makes sense to talk about these in an honest way. There’s always something to learn.

    “They exist among the older guys too, but generally they are going to go after age appropriate women. ”

    Okay, I strongly disagree. You’re saying that there are guys in the over 37 range who have no accomplishments, wealth, or status who are popular with same-age women? I’ve seen guys at that age who are good at fooling maybe one or two woman at that age, maybe two women. I’ve seen older guys who hit on younger women and succeed because they are more accomplished than those younger women. But I don’t think I have seen any (seriously, none) older guys with no accomplishments or wealth who are popular with women as a whole.

  114. This is probably the hardest concept to sell of them all, but it’s true.

    One of the things that is great about America is the idea that anybody can become rich, if they work hard or are fortunate. And that concept doesn’t stop there. We feel that anybody who really wants to can go to college and graduate. We feel that we all have a chance to be exceptional. BUT logically—most of us know that everybody can’t be a millionaire. In fact, everyone is not even cut out for college.

    But somehow, most guys believe that they can really date a supermodel. It doesn’t seem to matter that they don’t look like male models themselves. It doesn’t seem to matter that they don’t own their own yacht. There is this deep down belief that every man *deserves* to be with a girl who he considers to be a perfect 10 (or at least a 9).
    And usually that opinion of what a 10 is, is based on comparisons to movie star faces, and porno bodies, none of which are even real.

    So what am I saying? You should date some homely girl who you’re not attracted to? No. But guys have to learn the difference between “attractive” and “fantasy.” There is also a little something called “reality” that is very useful. In a high school with 2000 students, there are 20 cheerleaders on the squad. That is 1% of the total population, perhaps 2% of the female population. Now given that fact, can every guy in the school really date a cheerleader? That’s reality.

    Now what if some guy came up to you and told you that he could teach you these certain techniques and then you could date cheerleaders, would you pay him $1000 to “train you” over a weekend, or would you take a long look at reality and think, “the numbers don’t lie?”

    You can find an attractive woman, who will totally turn you on, physically, intellectually, and emotionally. But if you are stuck on this idea, that you HAVE to have a “cheerleader” then chances are you are just going to end up alone. Too many guys seem to define beauty based on certain ideals that are more about style than substance.

  115. “King- Those women are not representative of your average geek girl– not even close. Just take an advanced computer science course sometime and compare not only the ratio of guys to girls, but also the physical attractiveness of the girls, to the kind that you would find in a psychology class.”

    The majority of women (including bars and clubs) are average. A small percent are very attractive and a small percent are very unattractive. The difference is that and bars and clubs, they are dressed more seductively, and you’ve had 3 beers.

  116. Of course it’s slightly different from what we’re talking about, but my point is that at a certain point men are expected to be older, wiser, more accomplished, and not simply tooting their own horn. When a guy is young, horn tootin’ is both okay and expected.

  117. There’s something wrong with Pick Up Artists’s brains, they’re a mess of contradictions their minds can’t reconcile and can’t get a grip on, that’s why they fall for the easy PUA platitudes and dogmas.

  118. It’s not impossible to sleep with women half your age when it’s 38. The difference is, you should be doing it from a position of power and accomplishment. Look at Salman Rushdie and his wife. Lots of examples in the real world. Guys like Connery, Liam Neeson etc were all considered sexy by women well past the age of 38. The most important thing is to be distinguished and to have a six pack.

    Waste your youth masturbating into your own hand while spending years learning PUA and getting crumbs though, and watch any possibility of achievement just go down the drain.

    Now look at this sucker PUA Master Guru on the other hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_56-Zk9lIQ

    A scottish leprechaun complete with saltimbanco act. His wife divorced him when she finally realised what he had become, but he doesn’t care, he’s having the time of his life going on “Fuck-a-thons” and cheating gullible and naive clueless dorks out of their money, while fucking his own hand.

  119. “Amelia, I agree with you! Men of any age should feel free to lust after younger women. They just should recognize that most of us have an incest tabu, and when we see a girl fucking a man old enough to be her dad, it’s natural for most of us to judge it and be disgusted by it. It’s impossible not to think of father-daughter incest in those situations.

    But, ho! I didn’t know this +_+’

  120. “First of all, I’m married. Second of all, why should I? I don’t see you asking King or Byron to post a video of themselves in action, yet you take their opinions as a given. May I see one from one of you?”

    The difference is, you claim that PUA works and can be “brutally effective”. The burden of proof is on you… well, you know the drill.

  121. Raguel, you claim that your advice works better and that mainstream advice is better. Why don’t you go ahead and prove that?

  122. Hey Byron,

    Now it’s my turn to say “my bad”. :) I hadn’t realized you had said this before about our description of a “player:”

    If we say such a guy can’t have status, physical attributes, or wealth, then I’d say yes, with a qualifier: these guys exist only among the young, say, 37 or below.

    That’s not exactly the way I meant it when I presented my example. It’s more like, relative to other guys, the dude’s status, physical attributes and wealth do not stand out in any significant way, so you can’t really chalk it up to those factors. Instead, there might be something more intangible to him like charm.

    When I said that older dudes could still be like this with age appropriate women, I didn’t mean that they had absolutely no achievements, status, etc, but that relative to other men in their age group they have no significant edge in those areas. You can still be charming when you’re older, and still charm age appropriate women.

    Thanks for the link, I read that before, and happen to agree with it even though I’m not a fan of Hugo Scwyzer. At some point, you do have to hang your gloves, and call it a good run. Even older richer guys end up having trouble: just look at Paul McCarthy, and Hugh Hefner recently.

  123. “Raguel, you claim that your advice works better and that mainstream advice is better. Why don’t you go ahead and prove that?”

    The entire basis of PUA is that it works better than common knowledge – mainstream advice. In choosing between which has to be proven first, common knowledge versus a new esoteric branch… well, you know the drill bro.

    ;)

  124. Sure, I agree it makes sense to talk about these in an honest way. There’s always something to learn.

    Byron,

    Yeah. Like I said, I’m not really here to push guys into PUA. Nor am I asking for people to engage in women bashing. I just think an even handed approach is sorely needed. As men’s behaviors are criticized and calls are made for them to man up, there should also be some sober criticism of women’s behaviors and calls for them to rise up as well. Otherwise, a lot of guys will not bother to listen, because it’s a double standard.

  125. You don’t prescribe a cure that’s worse than a disease, which is what you’re doing, Notty. Prescribing a cure that by your own admission has not existed in NINE years, all just because you feel a need for some mythical cure.

  126. Raguel,

    Touche. If I ever get divorced, I might do that. However, let’s assume that I’m just a chump who’s lying.

    I’ll just show you this stupid video, in which even something stupid as this works better than your traditional buy her flowers, and approach with your hat in your hands crap:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RHTlSKMQzY

    Even something as retarded as saying “this is my first approach of the day, blah blah”, works better than the traditional dating script. Wonder why.

  127. I agree with King but I’ll add this also. It isn’t impossible for a not super attractive man to be with a super model woman. We’ve all seen walking down the street mismatched couples. We have no idea how that couple came to be but to think learning game will help you achieve that is ludicrous. Funny reading about PUA, they sell you they can teach you how to be that couple. To be that average or below average looking guy who can win the heart of a supermodel. It’s sad for me to see how some guys in their twenties may be passing up the one girl who may not be that fantasy girl but can be his girlfriend. Most guys as they get older and if still alone regret that eventually. If you look at all those PUAs w average and below average , if their stuff works, how come none of the average or below average looking PUAs have girlfriends , wives who are above average in looks? I’m sure some of these PUA companies really believe they are trying to help people but I also believe many of these are just out to make a quick dime on someone’s misery. I’d like to throw this in, PUA companies who show pictures or footage of them or their clients kissing girls, etc. Can’t this easily be staged? I have a good friend who works for a liquor company who hire model type girls to promote their product. Can’t these girls also be hired to take false pictures or flirt with lowly guys without any confidence? I know, the rationalization is, something like this may boost a guy’s confidence that will carry over when he meets with a real woman, just like that Magic Feather in Dumbo, but isn’t it short term confidence? Won’t it eventually strike midnight and that confidence eventually turn back into a pumpkin? Sorry for all the Disney metaphors. Also the WWW is out of hand at some of these Asian PUA sites. I have a friend who forwards me some of the message board posts on the site and it’s utterly comical.

  128. ROFL, that video you just showed me, it’s too surreal. Seriously? This is what you’d call a success? It looks more to me like a public disgrace. 9 out of 10 guys doing something like that will get nowhere because what they’re doing is just a stunt, a rehearsal of tactics and methods, and builds nothing of value in the woman.

    Secondly, the traditional dating script if I’m not mistaken has not been flowers and hat in hand crap for something like, I dunno at least ten years? Although it sounds like more than fifty, rofl. Are you up to date with the times?

    Basic mainstream script now – and has been for quite a few years – is things like “just say hi”, “be yourself”, “be confident”, and “look for eye contact”. All of which are really solid when understood, built upon, explored.

  129. ROFL!!! Morobishi I love your Disney references! :D XD

    I could say much more about the “get a SUPERMODEL with this PUA SECRET” thing but can barely be bothered. Much of this feels like teaching common sense to a brain-damaged child with no capacity to actually think or notice anything.

  130. Well, the guy did make out with a girl on a street just minutes after meeting her, using something completely retarded.

    Let me know how just saying hi will help you do that.

    The only other useful “advice” in what you just said is “look for eye contact”. The rest are just a number of truisms that don’t make sense by themselves. That’s why they have to be built upon, understood, etc.

    And I was being facetious about the traditional dating script. Which at least prior to PUA still included the assumption that you have to dine and wine a woman. I haven’t been keeping up, obviously, because I’m all set…

  131. all just because you feel a need for some mythical cure.

    Nope, you got me wrong. I’m not trying to prescribe anything. I’m making the point that the information was legit, because it’s a lot easier not to think of the genders’ behavior when it is easily dismissed. When people do that, then nothing needs to get fixed– except for one side of the equation, of course, that needs to rise above their objectifying, etc.

  132. Wow, Moroboshi REALLy get’s it! Of course, Notty does too for the most part-this is a friendly discussion.

    “I’d like to throw this in, PUA companies who show pictures or footage of them or their clients kissing girls, etc. Can’t this easily be staged?”

    You don’t even have to pay, as I said in another thread:

    “Hi, sorry I don’t mean to bother you and your friends, but I’m just visiting for the weekend, and I’m always telling my buddies back home how beautiful the girls in this city are! Now please tell me if this is asking too much, but it would really blow the guy’s minds back home if I could take a picture with you like we were hanging out! I’d really owe you big time! Back home we don’t have any girls as gorgeous as you, and I’ll keep this picture forever! What do you say?”

    It’s easy to get a few pics with pretty girls, all you need to be is a good liar!

  133. On the point of looking at the fairness of discourse around gender behaviors, have a look at the link Byron provided. An older man with a sex drive is a “dirty old man”? That’s something practically nobody would do to an older woman. If we want to combat things like that, there’s no use getting into an esoteric branch of knowledge that has been irrevocably tainted by charlatans, mentally ill and sub-intelligent people.

    You’ll have to confront these double standards, face to face, as convincingly as possible so that people can appreciate the point you’re making.

    The player approach of “fuck all else” won’t help much.

  134. I hope you guys can forgive my tone if it seems offensive. I still consider this a friendly discussion. I just disagree strongly, and quite intensely. +_+’

  135. Could be something else too. Could be that these guys knew exactly what was up, and there were things, contradictions they didn’t want to bring to light, such as all that time spent going to cheap bars basically gambling on a one night stand, having sex much less than a guy with a girlfriend or even a serial monogamer, all the insights and tactics in the end working only because a girl was okay with their look and they were horny, they couldn’t get the consistent results in real life that they said they got on the internet.

    Sure, it could be that. I feel I vetted enough of the knowledge through past experience, and by trying some of the stuff that was new to me out on the “field.” For me the most fundamental shifts in thinking were the fact that I didn’t have to spend a single cent on a woman to actually sleep with her, that I actually didn’t need to stick to social circles, and that I didn’t have to wait weeks or months to enter into a sexual liason. All of those things, of course, are BS, and prior to PUA they were pretty much “common knowledge” even here in the U.S. If things are different now, then I don’t know what changed.
    Not for bragging or anything, but how long do you think it takes to get an average girl into bed? What does mainstream advice say about that these days?
    I do agree, that unless a guy has an open relationship, or some sort of friends with benefits situation, he won’t have as much sex as a your average guy with a girlfriend. However, some guys want more variety and more varied experiences than what you get with a long term girlfriend, and that’s fine too. It’s not necessarily about racking numbers to feel good, though for some guys it is.
    By the way, Don Juan was a character, but Casanova was a historical figure. Whether Casanova was embellishing his memoirs is another thing. :)

  136. @King:

    Completely agree on the having pictures up, etc. My guess is that the guy on the video above maybe had to try that a few times before he hit paydirt (and of course, the same would be said of me if I had any inclination to post a vid of my mug, which I don’t). My point still stands, though, that even though it’s stupid, it still got results that you probably would never get with traditional dating.

  137. @King, again:

    On the subject of geeky girls, all I can tell you is by what I’ve been able to observe. There was definitely a gap between your average girl in a geeky field (not to mention the lack of girls in general), and your average girl in other fields. Even when I was not a closet nerd, and enjoyed roleplaying games in the open (be gentle, Raguel, lol), I could tell you that girls in those hobbies did not compare.

    And, again, not trying to brag, but I knew that if it wasn’t for my image as a geek, I could do better. That’s why I eventually distanced myself from that, and also point blank told my jock friend “man, I reall suck at this. Can you show me how you talk to girls?”, and it basically got me a lot closer to what I wanted.

    In fact, just to tell another story, there was this other guy in high school, who was a total nerd. However, he was fairly good looking and not bad in the height dept. Cute girls who didn’t know him as a geek would go out of their way to talk to him, but eventually they found out he was boring and well. I know because I overheard one girl telling a story of how she thought he was really cute at first, but was taken aback when all he could talk about was aviation and world war II planes– something that he clearly enjoyed. Good guy, though– gentle, respectful, etc, but he didn’t want homely girls either.

  138. it still got results that you probably would never get with traditional dating.>>>>

    But what results are you looking for? As we talked about, most of these guys do in their heart of hearts want a steady relationship. It’s what a lot of these PUA sites sell. The only problem is, most of them want the steady relationship with the super hot fantasy girl (usually white when it comes to Asian PUA sites) they’ve seen in movies. What do you gain by making out with a girl at a club? Let me put it this way, how many have been to a club where a girl (probably most of the time drunk) get dirty w you only to be turned down by her when you ask for her number afterwards. Don’t want to get into too much detail about experiences on the dance floor because don’t want to offend. A lot of girls that I’ve noticed at these clubs go out to have fun like that. I’ve seen it time and time again happen to either me or my friends. We get “too” excited about these things only to be disappointed when the girl doesn’t go any further with it. Pictures and videos can easily be faked. It doesn’t prove how good or how bad a PUA system is. Even if real, what does it prove? Girls like making out with guys at clubs? Is that what all those guys are looking for? I would guess it’s even easier to exaggerate or fake reports on the message boards. Even with that, if you read the boards, about 90% of the field reports on a lot of PUA sites don’t go any further than mostly a number close or a make out. Is that what you want to buy?

  139. Oh, and this is exactly why I would NEVER reveal my identity as a PUA, unless some serious $$$ was involved, lol:

    A list of “perverts”

    Raguel,

    Here’s a link to Tokyopua’s mug: http://www.pualingo.com/pick-up-artist-profiles/

    Clifford (older guy on the right): Clifford. Actually not bad, and I saw him work both in Montreal and Boston. He was pretty consistent during the day. Not so good at night, though.

    Supposedly this is Alphahot, one of the early guys: Alphahot1.

    Except for Clifford, the two guys are above average in looks, and I know Tokyo is on the taller side, so that explains some of their success obviously. Still, to consistently take a girl off the street and bed her is something that I know few guys could do like Tokyo.

  140. Moro:

    In a nutshell, while I still had my youth, I just wanted to have fun, like girls were doing, and like these guys were doing, instead of holding on to some ideal of decency that many people were preaching but not living up to.

    I already knew I had what it took to keep a girl. It’s what every girl prior to me talking to my jock friend said: “You are going to be a great boyfriend…”, but not for them. :) Obviously, this was in what? Like early highschool? But, that’s the kind of story you hear from many guys even after they’re older/wiser.

    I did get caught in a couple of long term relationships/flings, but by that point I wasn’t so interested in settling down as I was in experiencing different types of girls. I have no regrets, except at one point there was a girl who for a time was “the one that got away” for me. You could say I learned from that, and cashed in my chips when I met my wife.

  141. Even with that, if you read the boards, about 90% of the field reports on a lot of PUA sites don’t go any further than mostly a number close or a make out. Is that what you want to buy?

    Those are usually guys who are learning the ropes from scratch. There were a lot less guys in that situation in the past. Also, most field reports were for the purpose of having someone break down where you went wrong and what you could have done better. The infamous “lay reports” were a way of contributing back to the scene by showing what you did that was successful– and yeah, there’s an element of bragging just like any locker room talk.

  142. Not really! These PUA guys are putting up a good fight against him.

    King blurps out these bland generic dating advice that most of us could read anywhere said by anyone. He would have a hard time selling his pitch against people who are more innovative and saavy. Don’t you know we all love the experience aka-drama!

    I should ask you what is the difference between the PUA industry and the college one when it comes to meeting objectives.

    “So what do you think Chr? Do you think King’s advice could help you out in your dating life?

    ROFL”

  143. King blurps out these bland generic dating advice that most of us could read anywhere said by anyone.

    Hahaha, what did you expect? If something is true, it’s probably been said before. But I suspect that the real problem is that it’s not magic. You can’t really do it in a weekend, or a few weeks. To make it really work, you have to change almost everything, and most people aren’t willing to do that.

  144. @Chr…

    I actually know that King gets it-. I know because when he went into detail, he was on point- for the most part (j/k King). I think that part of the difference between him and I is that I think he has a too-rosy or too optimistic opinion of the average woman’s motivations and behavior, whereas his opinion of guys behaviors is more realistic, if just a tiny bit more stern.

    Plus, I believe he’s looking at it from a more long term view, and he is correct as well, because it’s about compatibility in the long run. PUA will not help you with that– and it never said it would, until it became an industry. At the same time, sowing your wild oats in itself, if that’s what you want, won’t keep you from entering into a relationship later.

    The only claim PUA can make is that it can get your foot in the door, since if you’re already having sex, sometimes it’s natural for that to evolve into a relationship (good or bad).

  145. i think PUAs are harmless. Its not like I see an army of them out in the AA community. In fact, I dont think they’d really succeed the way asian social circles are formed and operated.

    @notty

    asian guys I know dont really care about race as much as they care about access. To me, this makes them no different than any other (insert race) guy.

  146. But my question is, why do you need to pay them to get your foot in the door? Can’t this still be done by just befriending PUAs in clubs and going out with them? Why would you need a book or bootcamp for this? Does taking a bootcamp guarantee you having sex regularly? Is this something that can even be taught?

    Been reading some of the discussion of this in the Fighting 44s. Wow, didn’t realize this has been talked about that much.

  147. I’m the Grandmaster of love. You guys should listen to me. Some assertive women can ask man out. You have to read the signs. The way they sit and cross their legs. And the way they smile and touch their hair. You got to have style and grace. You have to know when to hold ‘em and know when to fold ‘em. Know when to walk away and leave them behind. You guys are defeating yourself saying no one wants to date you because you’re Asian. I shook my head. One more thing, I can never understand what racism have to do with dating.

  148. No probs, Notty!

    “That’s not exactly the way I meant it when I presented my example. It’s more like, relative to other guys, the dude’s status, physical attributes and wealth do not stand out in any significant way, so you can’t really chalk it up to those factors. Instead, there might be something more intangible to him like charm.”

    I agree. A lot of it does depend on attitude. A salesman saying, “I only sold three widgets!” vs. “I sold three widgets in this down market; I rock!” could mean exactly the same thing from a different angle. There are also the intangibles like easygoingness, walk, etc that could make a guy stand out, assuming he does have some achievements under his belt.

  149. Well, thanks Notty.

    And you may be right that I don’t always give the proper attention so selfish motives on the feminine side of the equation, but I always feel that males have had a historic position of power (much as Whites have) so I am less urgent about female abuses than by male. However, I will aknowledge that they do both exist.

    Part of the dilemma is that the approach differs depending on 1) who you are and 2) who younare pursuing. There are going to be things that you’re good at romantically, and there are going to be things that she is looking for that are specific to her personality. That’s why the answers can’t be one size fits all.

  150. Seeing that video touted as some kind of “success” for PUA methods is like seeing a person go into agonal breathing, and a fellow bystander glibly telling you he’s sleeping/snoring.

    It is a very disturbing and sanity-destroying horror.

    Just one of the many ways Pickup Artists continuously gaslight each other.

  151. Seeing that video touted as some kind of “success” for PUA methods is like seeing a person go into agonal breathing

    Well, as Notty says above, we only see the successful take that he wants us to see. But really, it could have taken him all day to get that one successful take, leaving out all the times he tried it and miserably failed.

    OR he could have just told the woman off camera that he was making an instructional video and just needed a woman-off-the-street amateur actress to demonstrate a technique. “You don’t have to learn any lines, just go along with what I’m saying.” There are a lot of women who would do that for $50 – $100, you would never even have to tell her that you’ll be trying to pass it off as anything more than a staged demonstration.

    None of this stuff is proof of anything. In fact, if you were paying your bills based on men believing in your abilities and paying you for help, (be honest) might you not be out there “bending the truth” a little?

  152. One last thing: 2 Technical observations about the video.

    Do any of you notice how how close that camera actually is to the couple the entire length of their conversation? First, he’s following, then he just stops about 4 feet away and just stands there recording. Are you telling me that she didn’t notice that? There’s a guy just standing there, 4 feet away, holding up his cell phone or camera, and she doesn’t start looking at the guy and wondering why he’s doing that?

    Also listen, the audio source sounds way too clean from the 2 principles for the distance, and there is no change in clarity and volume from when their backs are turned away from the camera and when they are completely open. That indicates that the two people who “don’t know each other” both just happen to be wearing lavaliere microphones, either that or that they did a voice over in studio. (I’d say, its more likely the lavalieres).

    My opinion? It’s a totally staged fake.
    But, by all means, go back and have a look at it again for yourselves to confirm what I’m saying.

  153. Notty & King – Different strokes for different folks!

    King’s advice is for the nice romantic chump who wants to start a LT.

    PUA is all about the chase and thrill, leading to the usual ST routine of fornicating as many women you can. This seems more convincing to many men because of their nature. It’s even more convincing, since many young women today have become like men, and are looking for the same result. But it’s not in their nature to be the first mover because they love to be pursued, gather the right guy plays his cards the right way.

  154. “i think PUAs are harmless. Its not like I see an army of them out in the AA community. In fact, I dont think they’d really succeed the way asian social circles are formed and operated”.

    Are you talking about the Asian guys in those social functions who get their satisfaction when they dine in Asians restaurants and sing the karaoke blues with Asian girls who see them only as friend material? I’ve been to those before, and found out some of those girls were dating WMs, but they choose to hang out with their Asian bros once in a while to see how things are going on with them.

    I had a friend who’ve attended Asian Speed Dating events, and several of the AFs he was able to hook up with, were in past relationships with WMs. That tells you a lot about who has the upper hand.

  155. “It is a very disturbing and sanity-destroying horror….Just one of the many ways Pickup Artists continuously gaslight each other”.

    Just like the college/university bureaucratic machine misleading young men and women that higher education is a requirement for the real world. Just like the envious and spiteful college advisers and professors gaslighting a young talented person from reaching his/her full potential.

    Just like “Hope and Change “you can believe in!

  156. Our entire bottom line focused and money driven culture should be a summed up as gaslighting compatitble.

  157. Chr:

    “Are you talking about the Asian guys in those social functions who get their satisfaction when they dine in Asians restaurants and sing the karaoke blues with Asian girls who see them only as friend material? I’ve been to those before, and found out some of those girls were dating WMs, but they choose to hang out with their Asian bros once in a while to see how things are going on with them. “

    You OWE us a story on this one, so do say more. Story! Story! Story!

  158. “You OWE us a story on this one, so do say more. Story! Story! Story!”

    AF who is a bible study mentor in NYC’s Chinatown, does get togethers with a lot of Asian bros and sisters in her group. Restaurant outings with karaoke sessions to boot. Once, I was in a cafe talking with a client, and out from nowhere I saw her with a WM, and she greeted me wholeheartedly, like any good hearted Christian. Some of the AFs in that group said they’ve dated WMs before, and some were lusting for one. What’s harder to believe, my story or the one of Jesus?

  159. Btw, she once asked the guys, so how would you feel if you were alone without any compansionship? She said you could always turn to god for help.

    Chinese Christianity at its finest!

  160. “PUA is all about the chase and thrill, leading to the usual ST routine of fornicating as many women you can. This seems more convincing to many men because of their nature. It’s even more convincing, since many young women today have become like men, and are looking for the same result. “

    PUA is essentially a business idea that victimizes chumps who buy into a pornographic scriptwriter’s view of reality. In this reality, women are always hot for the pool boy, the cop that pulls them over, the pizza delivery man, the bare-chested auto mechanic, and the next door neighbor. All the PUA needs to do is demonstrate how to tap into this great hidden reservoir of overt female horniness with a few good used-car salesman lines and voila average guys will become gigolos!

    The problem is that, no matter what some people will tell you, this version of reality is simply not real. There are *very* few guys who can ever really sleep with a long line of attractive women. The “average guy” is not going to be out having sex with women who look like porno actresses, movie stars, or beauty queens *AT ALL*, much less one after the the other.

    Of course, anyone is clearly free to pursue this false reality if they like, but be forewarned, that it will come at the expense of putting your life together and making yourself what women really want, Sure… when you’re 42 years old, you may finally begin to realize that you’ve never had the results that these guys have promised you, and you may become angry and bitter at PUA, but by then it will be too late for you. You won’t even have the satisfaction of being a “Has been”, you’ll be a “Never was.”

  161. “I had a friend who’ve attended Asian Speed Dating events, and several of the AFs he was able to hook up with, were in past relationships with WMs. That tells you a lot about who has the upper hand.”

    Chr.
    upper hand of what? who is able to date out of their race more? chr. thats not really a big secret.

    lol. what a story. The AF in your story just happened to find love with a WM. That is her choice. Whats worrying though is a large asian bible crew led by an af/wm couple prosleytizing the virtues of xtianity……For your own sanity cant you just write that whole group out of your life? pick up a cool hobby- learn to cook, buy a motorcycle, do some traveling to new and exciting destinations. Just do anything. A change of scenery might be in order.

  162. *Chuckles*

    The things that Chr has seen could certainly alienate a man from women.

    It’s just too bad, turning to PUA will do the same thing :D

  163. King, thanks for the technical analysis of that PUA “success” video. I was wondering if anybody else saw it. I was pretty much unable to overcome what jumped at me right out through the screen: awkward acts and awkward conversation.

    Notty might not have known, but I was in PUA. I know what it all looks like. I know what it FEELS like. You can’t just see it. You have to be there. You have to have a real stake in it, for success or failure to have any real meaning to you.

    I don’t know how long you guys have known Notty but to me already too many things do not add up and his story is suspicious. Female attraction does not work this way, so how can a supposedly experienced man from the old days vouch for this stuff, with the caveat that “some of it” matches with his own experiences and observations?

    I’m not even going to comment about the criticism against your four points. Despite all that talk about fucking supermodels and fucking women like rockstars, Pick Up Artists can’t reconcile themselves with the fact that you actually HAVE to be above average to do that, and that is why they concern themselves with acquiring the next magic method and tactic that will bump them up to rockstar status.

    If these guys don’t have the drive to make something out of themselves, then why not put aside the pride and insecurities and accept what would make them happy? Most aspiring puas only want to sow some wild oats before going into an LTR with a girl they really like. Why can’t they understand that women have their own preferences and desires too, and a man can get laid simply as a function of proximity?

    What has become clear to me is that PUAs have never lacked “morals” or anything like that. What they truly lack is standards. Specifically, standards for themselves. I used to spend early mornings depressed wondering how it was that other PUAs could call a night out a “success” when the only thing they did was recite their “openers” to as many people as possible and gone nowhere, and celebrated “numbers” that meant nothing. None of the women they talked to remembered them. I also wondered how it was that some of these PUAs could tolerate pretending and lying about almost everything to women in a vain attempt to get into their pants, when fundamentally that meant that you as a person are not good enough to attract a woman on your own merits, and that’s why you have to resort to trickery and tactics.

    Pick Up Artists are not human beings. If they were, they would not give up their own human dignity in that manner.

  164. King,

    I agree. Actually, when I saw that video (and I watched it only because you commented on it), that was exactly what I was thinking–it was bad acting, reminiscent of a porn video. Porno music slash comment time!

    Chr:

    Thanks! Great story, and I’ve seen it before. If the media is against you, if the culture is against you, if racism affects you, turn to the Lord Jesus!

  165. We’ve all known Notty forever. He was there back in the early days of the 44s. He’s got my trust!

  166. Yeah, Notty is a solid and sensible guy, and he hasn’t been into PUA for a long time now. He sees the same problems with it as we do, he’s just not ready to de-fenistrate the entire concept of PUA as we are.

  167. Well, if y’all can vouch for him then that’s good enough for me. The other measure of the quality of a man is the quality of the people standing by him.

  168. Yes, he’s a good guy. As King says, he sees the same problems with the movement as we do. His difference of opinion is that he thinks there are some positives that can outweigh some of the negatives. I don’t agree, but I can understand his point, and he has been there.

  169. Hey guys,

    First of all, thanks for the vote of confidence. :) I am here in the interest of discussion; in good faith.

    I was without a computer all weekend, so I’m catching up now.

    I gotta say, though, I’ve had a strange Sunday. I think that “Life is stranger than fiction” saying is true now. It turns out someone close to my wife has actually been dating a “dating instructor” who is friends with someone “who is famous on TV”, and they have a mansion in Beverly Hills,e tc, etc.. Well, that seemed kind of obvious…

    I looked at the profile of the girl from my wife’s friend list, and the face of the guy looked familiar. I did some internet sleuthing and found out who it is– turns out I had seen him on youtube.

    Supposedly, he is a ‘master pua instructor.’ I know for a fact that the girl in question is an FOB, and she has had a tough time in the U.S. Not saying this to offend, she is pretty. However, if you’re a White ‘master pua instructor’, who’s going to charge me thousands and thousands of dollars, I expect you to be picking up models, and not FOB with issues. And I also expect your ‘game’ to consist of more than having a VIP table, flashing your connections to semi-famous people, and telling the girls that you’re “like hitch”, or “a dating coach.” <—- I can rant about this point for hours, having met guys like that when the copycat "workshops" started to sprout circa 2003? Their "game" consisted of a few ice breakers they learned on the internet word for word, followed by "I'm teach guys how to date women", when asked what they do. Plus, the girls were never very far from their league. Unfortunately, most guys have real jobs to keep and can't rely on "I'm a teacher like Hitch," to impress girls.

    I would trust Byron with the pictures, and some of the details, but I am not sure that's the right thing to do by the girl. Plus it's kinda too close for comfort.

  170. Not a big secret, but a big grievance for many Asian guys (not me tho..). I was just making a point that these so called Asian cliche groups usually serve no purpose for men looking for a mate. AFs don’t just happened to find love with WMs, they seek them out directly. You should not be suprised that a lot of AFs you know might have WMs on the side, whom they mess around with occasionally. This can be shocker to some of the Asian guys who hang out with them.

    In regards to the bible group, the AF mentor has never brought up her man into the scene, she always kept it out of the picture. I was introduced to the group by a friend who later said to me that she prefers to date ONLY WMs.

    “upper hand of what? who is able to date out of their race more? chr. thats not really a big secret.

    lol. what a story. The AF in your story just happened to find love with a WM. That is her choice. Whats worrying though is a large asian bible crew led by an af/wm couple prosleytizing the virtues of xtianity……For your own sanity cant you just write that whole group out of your life? pick up a cool hobby- learn to cook, buy a motorcycle, do some traveling to new and exciting destinations. Just do anything. A change of scenery might be in order”.

  171. “Pick Up Artists can’t reconcile themselves with the fact that you actually HAVE to be above average to do that, and that is why they concern themselves with acquiring the next magic method and tactic that will bump them up to rockstar status”.

    Handsome men who use PUA tactics correctly, will get laid like a rockstar. Yes or no?

  172. Notty might not have known, but I was in PUA. I know what it all looks like. I know what it FEELS like. You can’t just see it. You have to be there. You have to have a real stake in it, for success or failure to have any real meaning to you.

    I don’t know how long you guys have known Notty but to me already too many things do not add up and his story is suspicious. Female attraction does not work this way, so how can a supposedly experienced man from the old days vouch for this stuff, with the caveat that “some of it” matches with his own experiences and observations?

    Raguel,

    Regarding me as a B.S’er, all I can say is that I kinda saw this coming, because you wouldn’t have asked me for a video if you didn’t think I was bullshitting you guys. But then again, it’s an odd request because if you think I’m bullshitting you in print, what makes you think I won’t bullshit you on video? :)

    I had a rant against “lair” guys, and current PUAs, but I’ll just clarify a couple of points:

    I’m pretty sure I’ve never called myself a PUA– and anyone willing to comb through my 44, MM.com, or this blog’s posts can verify if they want. I have called myself a low level ‘player’, because I’ve done things that your average guy who is/was in my situation, but who is/wasn’t in the know wouldn’t pull off without practice/experience.

    I have never claimed I was an early contributor. I only said I was around when alt.seduction.fast had the early players posting. I got lucky enough to have met a guy in “P.A.I.R” who was in touch with some of these guys. It was just luck.

    Some of their experiences DID match my past experience. For example, what they were saying about women’s behavior on the sly matched my experience, since I had seen my jock friend do the same thing. This made me more willing to give some of the other things that were alien to me a try, and many of them checked out.

    There is a difference between getting into this when almost no one knows it existed, and getting into it after it has been exposed to the mass media. An unoriginal guy armed with ‘routines’ or ‘patterns’ back then would have more success than the same guy getting into it now that it’s been ‘red queened’. Even then, they would still get caught because they were flying blind and not using their brain. Now a guy who comes into it with the mindset of “why does this shit work”, “what’s operating behind this”, will do better, because the principles are solid.

    I will say, though, that the situation now is harder. Having 20 “lair” guys in one place (club, mall, bookstore, whatever), all approaching girls with similar routines “because it doesn’t matter what you say, it’s HOW you say it”, well… makes things more complicated. Why? Because by the time you get to that girl to say ‘hi’, she’s probably been insulted with a ‘neg’, she’s probably heard 3 guys tell her a story that she heard from the previous guy, and is probably going to think to herself, “What does THIS guy want now?”—so you might not even get past ‘hi’. :)

  173. “Handsome men who use PUA tactics correctly, will get laid like a rockstar. Yes or no?”

    Handsome men don’t have to use any “Particular method” because women will find ways to make themselves available to them. It’s kind of like asking if seven-foot tall high-school basketball players are likely to get a College scholarships, if they use a particular method to get noticed—they’re going to get noticed either way!

  174. I’ve also noticed PUA companies will say anything to sell their product ie, they aren’t there to make money but to help people. I’ve noticed some of the Asian ones in particular will bring up mass media statistics that will only favor them ie, something as far out as bring up the percentage of Asian women suicides, yet they don’t bring up the stats of suicides of others. Or, a popular one, the number of men are outnumbering the women in China 3 to 1 or something yet there are no bootcamps in China or Hong Kong or any of the “male” dominated Asian countries for that matter. Any logical person can see these flaws in their statements.

    If you read some of these message boards, it looks like some of these guys really need psychological help. I don’t know if telling them you’re going to be better by taking a bootcamp is going to help. Lets say nothing changes after the bootcamp, won’t they fell even worse? It’s somewhat shady marketing.

    Also. I wonder how these companies are doing these days. I was reading about one company saying they were taking in millions a year.

  175. Alright than, see if I ever tell you guys how to get any. Right now I’m dating a hot hot Hispanic girl. I met her at my eye exam. She was the girl that help people pick glasses. I wear contacts by the way. Once I’m finished with her, I will return to my goal to find an Asian bride.

  176. I still have a lot of catching up to do, and owe replies to King and Moro.

    I don’t know if people are getting burned out by this point. It’s been another marathon PUA thread…

  177. Siggy,

    Haha! Is she nearsighted or farsighted or both?

    Chr:

    Great stories! I’m somewhat removed from the church, but it always surprised me how active church people’s lives were.

  178. “Handsome men who use PUA tactics correctly, will get laid like a rockstar. Yes or no?”

    “Handsome men don’t have to use any “Particular method” because women will find ways to make themselves available to them. It’s kind of like asking if seven-foot tall high-school basketball players are likely to get a College scholarships, if they use a particular method to get noticed—they’re going to get noticed either way!”

    ROFL! Actually bro, handsome guys who use PUA tactics correctly or not will immediately begin to repulse women. I’ve seen this happen to hotshit guys that I used to know. They thought they could “up” their game in a likeminded community of players and thought they had the background and experience to try out the stuff being circulated in the “community”.

    Let’s just say that they got disillusioned real quick. XD

  179. “Alright than, see if I ever tell you guys how to get any. Right now I’m dating a hot hot Hispanic girl. I met her at my eye exam. She was the girl that help people pick glasses. I wear contacts by the way. Once I’m finished with her, I will return to my goal to find an Asian bride.”

    You indulge in fantasy so much, why don’t you fuck off somewhere quiet and write a book?

  180. “I will say, though, that the situation now is harder. Having 20 “lair” guys in one place (club, mall, bookstore, whatever), all approaching girls with similar routines “because it doesn’t matter what you say, it’s HOW you say it”, well… makes things more complicated. Why? Because by the time you get to that girl to say ‘hi’, she’s probably been insulted with a ‘neg’, she’s probably heard 3 guys tell her a story that she heard from the previous guy, and is probably going to think to herself, “What does THIS guy want now?”—so you might not even get past ‘hi’.”

    Sorry, but what? You actually think a simple “hi” would be the equivalent of the moronic stories and tactics created by charlatans and their interns?

  181. “@ Siegfried

    Maybe SHE’s the one that needs glasses!?”

    Don’t worry, by dating he means that he’s fantasizing about dating her while vigorously masturbating over a memory of her breasts. He’ll be “done with her” soon alright.

    ;)

  182. “Great stories! I’m somewhat removed from the church, but it always surprised me how active church people’s lives were”.

    Hey Byron, I was never a Christian to begin with and I never attended church. I had a stint with a bible study group because a friend invited me to try it out. It turned out to be another AFCC in the making. *Laugh*

  183. I think a childhood classmate of mines who is kind of short and pudgy went down the PUA path. I never asked him if he was actually one of them, as to leave his personal life alone. He has a fauxhawk and wears flamboyant clothing which reminds me alot of the APB. I don’t think this could fly with many women, besides the bar/club hoppers who are pissy drunk to take you for what it’s worth. You look more like a clown than a real sex magnet.

    Maybe I’m being prejudiced again?

    Why don’t guys who tried this stuff and became disllusioned with it should write rants warning others that it’s all a farse?

    ABCs already has been getting good reviews, and the enrollment keeps growing every year.

  184. “Why don’t guys who tried this stuff and became disllusioned with it should write rants warning others that it’s all a farse?

    Raguel does.

  185. @King:

    I’ll defer to you on that analysis, since I know nothing of filmography, lol. I did use once a Sony voice recorder on my shirt pocket, which captured everything pretty crisply. I was assuming that the guy was using a wireless hidden mic or something.

    I was also going by the woman’s reaction, which seemed pretty candid; not at all like when you see “average” people on infomercials. I also think that for a relatively good looking tall guy like that, he might be able to get away with something like that, even though it’s stupid. I just don’t think that’s his “first approach.”

    I do know, however, that it’s very possible to meet a girl at a store, seduce her on the same day. The guy that showed me that was possible did this very consistently; me not so much, but it didn’t take me days or weeks either. You couldn’t do that with what was available pre-PUA, unless you were a real player in the know. It wasn’t information that was readily available. In fact, mainstream knowledge at the time insisted that it wasn’t possible.

    I also want to say something about guys and what the media sells them, but I gotta do this in short bursts.

  186. Sorry, but what? You actually think a simple “hi” would be the equivalent of the moronic stories and tactics created by charlatans and their interns?

    That is not what I said at all. Read my paragraph again.

  187. Are all the PUA companies the same? APB says he is different from the others. He markets his business with the mainstream, where as the others do not.

  188. Chr,

    The maintream stuff started with DYD, and since he really raked it in, the other companies tried to do the same.

    APB is just another Mystery clone. Same method, under different window dressing.

    Also, it turns out there is a sub-community of these dudes who plan out how to sell to more guys via marketing by making it seem like you need the newest and bestest “method”. Yet, there has not been anything original for years that I know of.

  189. But my question is, why do you need to pay them to get your foot in the door? Can’t this still be done by just befriending PUAs in clubs and going out with them? Why would you need a book or bootcamp for this? Does taking a bootcamp guarantee you having sex regularly? Is this something that can even be taught?

    Moro, meant to answer this, but the thread i s huge.

    Personally, I don’t think anyone needs to pay for a bootcamp. The information is available for free. When I say that PUA can get your feet in the door, I mean the knowledge that you can gain from the guys who took the time to break it down based on their experiences. Some books are not bad. I think books on NLP or salesmanship are legit ways to learn about how to effectively get rapport, etc; I wouldn’t necessarily buy a PUA book for that.

    Nothing will guarantee you having sex regularly, except money and a brothel I suppose. Look at how many husbands are sexless. This is about learning how to lead the interaction where you want to the best of your ability. Nothing is a 100%. You can, however, better your odds if you know something about influencing people.

    Personally, I don’t think that if I was single I take a bootcamp, unless it was someone whose information really helped me, and I knew they could help me understand some of what they said which I didn’t get. And it would probably be more about their thought processes than anything else. Like, I have a friend who is really really good at breaking the ice with people with stuff that just comes into his head. I’m OK, but he’s real good. I once asked him to explain to me what was he looking for when he approached someone, and he basically said ‘it needs to make sense to that person that I’m talking to them.’ It was a great way of putting it, I think, and it helped me.

  190. Notty,

    APB makes his sales pitch by going into colleges, and being on air with some mainstream TV channels. He lets everyone know that he is a dating coach first, not a pickup guy. He tells people especially the young guys at the schools, learn to engage with the opposite sex while you’re at it, because it becomes more difficult as you get older. If he was as sleazy as he seems, these boys would have ratted him out by now. Joining his bootcamp would require a long thought process, because by going to it means you’ve admitted your weakness, and now require a 3rd party to help you.

  191. I’ll defer to you on that analysis, since I know nothing of filmography, lol. I did use once a Sony voice recorder on my shirt pocket, which captured everything pretty crisply. I was assuming that the guy was using a wireless hidden mic or something.

    Well Notty it’s pretty basic. Have somebody talk to you directly, then have them talk
    while turning, so their back is to you. You can still hear them, but there is a definite
    change in the way that it sounds. Now his microphone would have to be pretty “hot” to be able to pick her up as clearly as his own voice. A mic that sensitive would be a problem in a crowd of people like that. The only way to do it is to have them both using similar mics. But if that is the case (and it is) then she is not a stranger that he met randomly on the street.

    This is the reason that criminals are so often caught by the police. Its incredibly hard to think of every detail, you’re going to forget some little detail.

  192. @ Notty

    “That is not what I said at all. Read my paragraph again.”

    I’m sorry, but I don’t understand you. You didn’t say it, but do you imply it? I can’t bend my head around why you thought that a girl would fob off a simple “hi” just because three other guys went up to her and delivered some convoluted “opener” and “routines” and “patterns” and may even have “negged” her. Unless of course, you think that those convoluted openers, routines, patterns and negs are the equivalent of a “hi” or “hello”, in that case I could see how you would think a girl would not give you the time of day.

  193. “Why don’t guys who tried this stuff and became disllusioned with it should write rants warning others that it’s all a farse?”

    Because there isn’t a platform to air our grievances, and because it doesn’t deserve a platform.

    The fundamental problem behind many guys turning to PUA is confusion and disillusionment that is in my opinion, encouraged by mainstream “Anglo” norms and attitudes towards sex and sexuality.

    If effort needs to be put into creating a platform, it should be put into a platform that is conscientious and free of the Pick Up Artist taint. As far as I know, this far, the irony is that only MAINSTREAM discourse will hold that platform up to any standard of honesty, empathy and integrity. The PUAs now, they’re just making use of advertising and PR connections and methods. There isn’t a soul behind what they’re doing.

    It will be good for them to continue as they are doing, so that they can reap a gigantic backlash later.

  194. @Raguel:

    Tell you what, if King doesn’t get what I meant by my comment, I’ll know that my writing is too obtuse, and I’ll elaborate.

  195. King:

    I wanted to respond to your comment. I agree with the gist of it, but as always, I make a distinction between the industry, and what was laid down before. Most of the players there were honest about what you could expect given what you had to offer.

    Also, like I mentioned in another comment, one of the big differences is that at the time this stuff was underground. Few guys outside of guys who had naturally developed good instincts, and those lucky enough to have stumbled upon this on Usenet early, had any kind of knowledge beyond “you need looks/height, and money”, and then you had the “nice guys” who thought that being “nice” was the way. The basic understanding in A.S.F was that you had to stand out, but these guys knew that personality could give you an edge. Relatively few guys thought like this at the time. This meant that someone who wasn’t so gifted in the wealth and looks department, but who had an understanding and a gift for communication and a willingness to take risks, had a relatively more level playing field.

    Now a guy can’t easily do the same thing with the same knowledge, especially if his only talent is to copy other people’s stuff word for word, because you have hundreds if not thousands of other idiots doing the same thing. What’s going to set them apart then if they don’t have the looks or wealth?

    Now, I’m not saying that before a 4’5″ man could necessarily get a “10” only with personality and gab, but maybe a 5’7″ guy with a large enough edge in “personality” could outdo the 6’1″ boring dude competing for the same woman. Now, not so much, especially if the guy is just spitting out stories that are not even his own.

    Now what if some guy came up to you and told you that he could teach you these certain techniques and then you could date cheerleaders, would you pay him $1000 to “train you” over a weekend, or would you take a long look at reality and think, “the numbers don’t lie?”

    For me, obviously not. I would only pay for a bootcamp if I knew the guy could impart some knowledge that would help me get more of an edge, and the knowledge would have to be something insightful about psychology whether it’s his own, or other people’s.

    You can find an attractive woman, who will totally turn you on, physically, intellectually, and emotionally. But if you are stuck on this idea, that you HAVE to have a “cheerleader” then chances are you are just going to end up alone. Too many guys seem to define beauty based on certain ideals that are more about style than substance.

    I agree, and the OK Cupid link I posted before seems to confirm that. However, women also have their own ideals that they only slightly compromise on, and then they seem to think that they’re lowering their standards. You see, most women would never date a guy who was shorter than them. They just can’t seem to get past even if they don’t have the looks to snag a guy like that. I’d say they’re the analog of the men you’re talking about.

    Not justifying the guys, btw, but it’s not only guys who are sold unrealistic expectations.

  196. Koku – I assume you are of Korean heritage by reading your posts. I always felt Koreans placed a bigger emphasis on status and wealth than let’s say the Chinese. From my observations and with my circle of friends, the “less” successful Korean dudes (non-Ivy, banker, doctor or lawyer) didn’t date/marry their own. One I knew dated a black woman, and several had Chinese girlfriends if we are talking about AFs.

    “I have said this before and I will say it again. The IR disparity is much more a function of female hypergamy than race. One which has been exacerbated by the relentless pursuit of the Model Minority status.

    The AM who is successful by the usual standards of the Model Minority profile (Ivy degree, doctor/lawyer, respectable family) will win out over the generic dorky white guy. But not every AM fits this profile and that’s the problem”.

  197. @ Notty

    I will say, though, that the situation now is harder. Having 20 “lair” guys in one place (club, mall, bookstore, whatever), all approaching girls with similar routines “because it doesn’t matter what you say, it’s HOW you say it”, well… makes things more complicated. Why? Because by the time you get to that girl to say ‘hi’, she’s probably been insulted with a ‘neg’, she’s probably heard 3 guys tell her a story that she heard from the previous guy, and is probably going to think to herself, “What does THIS guy want now?”—so you might not even get past ‘hi’

    I parsed this around my head a few times but am sad to admit I still don’t get what you’re saying. Rather than hound you for an explanation I’ll share my thoughts on this instead.

    I have never had a problem with using “Hi” with any woman. If a “Hi” didn’t work, then it was because she was flat-out uninterested, the situation was not right, or she wasn’t in the state of mind to be receptive. Those are the reasons saying “Hi” would fail, and those are also the reasons that all the convoluted “openers”, with the routines and lines usually fail too.

    In addition, if four weird guys approach a girl and creep her out, you WIN just by being NORMAL. You don’t even have to be suave or smooth, you just have to be NORMAL, you could even accidentally fart in front of her and a woman would still prefer you to someone who’s acted VERY strange with her.

    “Snatching” a girl from four losers who’ve practiced the same lines on her within minutes isn’t even difficult if you’re in a club. Much of it depends on the girl in question of course, but how much would you like to bet that if you’re close to her already, and saw all of that happen, and you shot her an incredulous “what the hell is going on look?” and laughed at them with her, she would open up to you in a way those PUA lines can’t achieve? Hell if even two suckers did that to a girl and she isn’t too bummed out or pissed off and “under the influence”of alcohol, that’d be my “go” signal to make a move. Women go to clubs to have fun, guys would do just fine if they just had fun as well.

    PUA gurus and instructors concentrate too much about what to say. They give men lines and openers to practice, but there are several serious problems with this. Number one, women in general do not like being “practice”. Number two, them finding out you were practising, and thus needed practise, is like you admitting to them you’re a handicap, and there’s something wrong with you. This repulses them. Number three and the most important reason: if you have trouble understanding what to say to women, this isn’t a problem of not knowing what to say. It’s a problem of not having enough social experience with women. (I won’t even get into other reasons, such as anxiety, etc)

    You don’t fix this by giving guys “lines”, “routines” and “patterns” to master. (Patterns, what the fuck.) Guys can learn better by being in environments where they can interact with women more and getting comfortable.

    Talking is not the only means of communicating. You can communicate with your expressions. You can communicate with your silence and what you don’t do. You communicate with the tone and tempo of your voice, and the other sounds you make, even if its a growl, a snort, even if you cluck like an insecure juvenile hen. Heck, even when you talk to one person and another person is just watching or listening, you are communicating to that person also. With that said, in my experience the BEST way to “open” a woman is to be noticed, and to make yourself known.

    Men are noticed by women all the time. Women watch men. If they don’t express interest or curiosity in you, its either because you do not stand out, or because you don’t seem approachable. A guy needs just two things to be swell with women in general: he needs to stand out and distinguish himself from other men – not necessarily be a better but most importantly to be identified with a complimentary “trait” – and he needs to know how give a warm vibe and be approachable. (Notice I didn’t say friendly. Novices try to be friendly and end up doing too much. Warm is better. You can be friendly but you give others enough, even lots of space to reciprocate, at their own time.) (I will get into “bad boy” vibe later)

    If you wanted to teach men to get swell with women, you need to teach and show him just a few basic things: being comfortable around them, interacting with them comfortably, how to get their attention and interest BEFORE you talk to them, how to express yourself with body language and facial expressions, standing out, being approachable and warm, eye-contact and… that’s pretty much it, actually. He’ll start getting attention from women within his “league”. For most guys that’s really enough: having a girl decent enough to look at and be horny too, who treats them well and they can also treat well. Just a few basic things and unlike what the constant churn of PUA propaganda says, you will start getting “potentials”. You will have choice. If for nothing else, your time on earth is limited, and there are opportunity costs. You choose how to spend time and who to spend it with.

    Just these basics and said guy is already in a strong position to learn a whole bunch of other stuff that he’d simply fail if he just jumped right into PUA. Clubs and bars will be demystified. They’ll pay less attention to lines and routines and more to the reason they start a conversation making sense. Female promiscuity will be demystified, once you start getting attention and start being solicited. You’ll see their behavior, much of it is quite transparents and primitive lol, and not the alarming game-playing that PUA cesspits like Roissy constantly say. When you’re comfortable interacting with women, you would have via experience and mistakes (hopefully not too embarassing ones) learned what they respond to and what repulses them, and this is something no PUA ebook and shitty blog can teach you. Little tricks to spice up conversation and intrigue women become small matters to absorb and use.

    This is something that the guys flocking to PUA don’t understand. PUA methods and techniques can be “red-queened” and outed. The things that women will respond to on the other hand, will never change. Going the non-PUA way will give you adaptability and an advantage, a source of power that comes from within yourself, instead of external sources like magic methods and lines.

  198. Hey Raguel,

    I’ve found that when a woman is put in a bad mood by a series of idiotic approaches, she generally will not very receptive to talking to yet another unknown guy interrupting her day. ”

    Years ago, before the lair, I remember hanging out with like 7 other “rAFC” guys and we all went into this bookstore. My friend and I voiced the opinion that this wouldn’t be so good, but the others were convinced it wouldn’t matter.

    Well, it turns out that by the time my friend greeted a girl, she was friendly enough, but she flat out said, “You are like the 6th guy who has talked to me now. What’s going on? Are you guys playing a prank?” He was lucky that the other guys hadn’t been the kind of idiots who would put her in a foul mood. try to open a conversation with , or put her in a bad mood, otherwise she would have just blown him off.

    It’s one thing to witness that, and “leech off” another guy’s stupidity by pointing it out, but it’s quite another to just go say ‘hi’ not knowing she’s pissed off because six guys have just asked her if they can urinate in her anus, or tried to “Shock and Awe” her. On the latter case, she may not even acknowledge your ‘hi’ unless you happen to be her type anyway.

  199. (Sorry Byron. I messed up my HTML code, and my cut/paste)

    Hey Raguel,

    I’ve found that when a woman is put in a bad mood by a series of idiotic approaches, she generally will not very receptive to talking to yet another unknown guy interrupting her day. ”

    Years ago, before the lair, I remember hanging out with like 7 other “rAFC” guys and we all went into this bookstore. My friend and I voiced the opinion that this wouldn’t be so good, but the others were convinced it wouldn’t matter.

    Well, it turns out that by the time my friend greeted a girl, she was friendly enough, but she flat out said, “You are like the 6th guy who has talked to me now. What’s going on? Are you guys playing a prank?” He was lucky that the other guys hadn’t been the kind of idiots who would put her in a foul mood.

    It’s one thing to witness that, and “leech off” another guy’s stupidity by pointing it out, but it’s quite another to just go say ‘hi’ not knowing she’s pissed off because six guys have just asked her if they can urinate in her anus, or tried to “Shock and Awe” her. On the latter case, she may not even acknowledge your ‘hi’ unless you happen to be her type anyway.

  200. Yeah, I’ve learned not to approach people in bad moods either. There’s quite a big difference between someone being alarmed or bothered versus being completely pissed off. Like I said though, in a club, you can pull it off if you are near her, she’s noticed you already and pegged you as “normal”, “fun/happy” or better, and you can step in at the right moment. Lol when done right its almost like a white knight rescue. They’ll practically FALL into your arms just to escape those other dudes. I won’t talk about sexual conquests arising from this though. That’s really up to her. XD

    I think that the BOOKSTORE is just a really sucky place to approach people, period. The environment where you make the approach matters. When you start a conversation with someone in a public setting, it’s like your friend said, and I’d like to expand: it’s also important for it to look very natural within the setting. Seven guys go to a bookstore and go one after another approaching women, it’s gonna look to them that these guys are on some kind of prowl. In some countries it would cause alarm because that’s how beggar/pickpocketing rings work.

    Then, regarding knowing whether someone would be receptive to being approached, I think that you can generally tell with maybe even a glance. For example, is she noticing people and taking her time? Does she seem distracted? Or very focused and in a hurry? Within her own world maybe? I think that a guy would be able to observe these things if he’s more “open” to the world around him as well, instead of shutting parts of it out, which I suspect is a common city habit, lol. I dunno.

    As for her being into you, I think that telling it is guesswork, whereas testing for it would be confirmation. Reciprocal eye contact and glancing/curious observation is a good sign. It’s an even better sign when she responds to your “hi” and makes an effort to develop the interaction, by adding to the conversation etc. If a girl were not interested, she would not even notice you even if you hovered near her. She’d ignore you flat outright. Women use this sort of proximity testing to test guys for interest as well.

    You know one of the things that amazed me greatly during my pua years which happened right after my shut-in ones? It was that although a lot of women could shoot me down for the darndest reasons, there were also a good number who would flirt and get really into it without reservations, just because I tried! At the time I couldn’t tell what sort of reception I would get, I couldn’t read people well yet. Positive reactions would be, I’d do an opener and they’d be really flattered and want to hear more, some would jump right into the conversation and make really witty/ naughty remarks and comments, some would even flirt get supa excited lol. None of this success could be attributed to the lines I was using or the pua dogmas I was learning. There seemed to be other more consistent factors for success.

    Much of these experiences contributed to developing my thoughts on this matter. Maybe the lines and methods, techniques don’t matter. Maybe it’s all about how a guy carries himself and his ease and comfort in social situations, interacting with other people, etc. Haven’t we all noticed, extroverts, people who’ve had lots of social interactions and social play, tend to be able to connect with the opposite sex better?

    Perhaps PUA is so rotten it should be consigned to the dump so that something worthier could take its place.

  201. I personally found it a lot easier to display spontaneous wit, and get into an interesting conversation in bookstores, libraries, museums, music stores (when they existed; losing Tower and then Virgin sucked), etc. As long as you don’t have many guys doing it, it’s fine. Clubs were more challenging for me, because I don’t like canned lines, and I often struggled to find something unique enough about the girl to comment on. I pretty much relied on eye contact, or the lucky occurrence that allowed me to break the ice with something funny.
    You can’t always tell at a glance how people are feeling. I’ve broken the ice with girls that looked closed-off only to have them brighten up and talk nonstop—so it’s not always obvious. You don’t always have the option of waiting and observing either, because they often just move on with their shopping, etc. When the lair started their dumbass “guerrilla strike force” here, I used to check their forums just to know when it was scheduled, so I could avoid their locations. The same for their club nights—I just didn’t want to be where they were.
    Eye contact is nice to have, but you can’t always rely on getting it, and not getting it doesn’t always mean disinterest. Towards the end of my run, I was being offered numbers without asking by women who hadn’t even glanced in my direction. Sometimes, after I left a conversation, they’d make a point to swing by just to say ‘good bye’ to me, after which getting their number was just natural. All of that was just as a result of our conversation and our vibe. Of course, phone numbers don’t mean anything more than an option to follow through, but my point is that you can’t always rely on signals.

    Much of these experiences contributed to developing my thoughts on this matter. Maybe the lines and methods, techniques don’t matter. Maybe it’s all about how a guy carries himself and his ease and comfort in social situations, interacting with other people, etc. Haven’t we all noticed, extroverts, people who’ve had lots of social interactions and social play, tend to be able to connect with the opposite sex better?

    Agreed, but extroverts were not born that way. They learned to interact, and that is something that other people can learn as well. I just think it’s helpful to have others who have learned by experience share their insights just like Dale Carnegie did, etc. If one only wants to get dates the traditional way, I agree that PUA isn’t needed. But if one is looking to tap into something more, the insights these guys shared were very good to have around.

  202. More on what I’ve been saying regarding careers in the computer science field:

    Geek image deters girls from cybersecurity careers

    Some choice quotes, presented out of order by me for comedic effect:

    Experts say the lack of women is not so much a matter of discrimination as the fact that young women do not think of cyber as a career option. They attribute that partly to an unappealing “geek” image from movies and girls’ lack of early computer skills that boys develop by playing video games.

    The portrayal in movies and television of a nerd loner, wearing thick glasses, soldering circuits together, and living in a dungeon-like room surrounded by computers and eating boxed pizza can be a deterrent.

    At cybersecurity and hacker gatherings, women are clearly in the minority among the sea of men lining escalators, filling gigantic hotel ballrooms and networking in hallways. (Some men grumbled about the lack of women at event parties).

    I think we need more music videos of Lady Gaga getting her geek on. :)

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