A Chinese guy who isn't me; a Jewish guy who isn't Hertsel
This is a podcast that I’d been hoping to do for a while. On this podcast, my good friend Hertsel and I discuss the Jews, the Chinese, and the humanities. It’s about fifty minutes, and it’s 46.2 MBs. Download it here, or listen to it here:
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I’ve been thinking a lot about the humanities over the years. As most of you know (and as I mention in the podcast), I had two big posts on the humanities: David Brooks’s The Big Shaggy and Michael Roth’s Why Liberal Arts Matter. ChineseMom and I had a podcast that addressed much of the same issue. In this highly informative podcast, Hertsel and I discuss the Jewish view of the humanities vs. the modern Chinese American view. We talk about how (some) Jewish parents raise their kids with respect to the arts, and how the arts are important.
This topic/podcast is something I’ve wanted to do for a long time. I remember in college how lots of Chinese American students used to downplay the humanities, saying that humanities majors would someday get jobs serving fries, and how arts majors, if they didn’t go into fast food, would all someday find themselves working for engineers. Years later, we realized this was all untrue; I was talking to a friend just a couple of weeks ago about how wrong we all were. Humanities majors, in fact, often rise to the top. I can’t even recall a U.S. President who majored in anything other than humanities (usually economics or history). I believe this outward dismissal of the humanities hurts Asian Americans more than any other issue afflicting us. The Jews, as we discuss on the podcast, shaped their own narratives. We’ve done good work in getting our stories out there, but we can do better.
My favorite part was when Hertsel exhorts us to tell our stories. I was talking to him after the podcast and said that we should do this again, maybe on the same topic, maybe on a different topic that could use some dissection by a Jewish guy and a Chinese guy. Enjoy the podcast, and sound off below with any opinions. If there are any topics you’d like us to discuss, please feel free to share ideas as well.
(pic from here)
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I agree with Hertsel that when one thinks of China, they think of the country’s rich cultural heritage and that much of the cultural heritage was either suppressed or destroyed during the Cultural Revolution.
Prior to the 20th century, China’s educational system was based mostly on the humanities: philosophy and literature. China has done a 180 and now focuses on the math and sciences, but it took a hundred years for that change to come about.
An interesting book that touches upon this topic is Fortunate Sons by Liel Leibovitz and Matthew Miller.
@alpha: you realize some of history’s most amazing scientific and engineering advances came from China? not just the 4 inventions everybody knows, but Chinese people were doing basic calculus hundreds of years before Newton or Leibnitz.
there’s nothing wrong with the humanities, just as there’s nothing wrong with focusing on math and sciences to have better engineering capabilities.
the issue is whether being completely one sided makes a malfunctioning society. In Asia they don’t have this problem, but in the US the Asians have been the high-tech variety because that’s what immigration wants. US immigration doesn’t want Asian artists because they’re too busy generating its own propaganda against Asians.
Yes Omega, I’m well aware of China’s technological advances. Another book you can read on this is The Genius of China.
@Alpha : From your blog: ‘ These men helped usher China into the modern era.’-a soundbite as to how these westernised Chinese actually did it, would be good to know, but nice mention. Will look into it.
@Omega: Word.
@B and Hertsel: Interesting as mentioned, in the Jewish culture, people are encouraged to question what they are taught in order to sharpen their individuality, whereas the Chinese culture, tend to learn stuff by rote, without question. But as has been mentioned above: what incentive do Asians to join the arts have when:
1. they are brought up in a ‘learn by rote culture’ by our parents = little if any critical mass of artistic careers pursued
2. the underhanded racist ‘model minority’stereotype plus others is perpetuated and certainly not questioned by ‘those in power’, for no other rational reason than perhaps… to remain in power?
Cycle perpetuates.
And lest my comments be taken incorrectly, I do know that there are Asian American artists–writers, movie-makers, musicians, actors–who are working hard at their crafts. Curtis Choy and Frank Chin quickly come to mind, names that should be familiar to regular readers of this blog.
To be clear, the proposition I have trouble understanding–if in fact it is true–is that such artists are looked down upon in the wider Asian American community (or perhaps just the wider Chinese American community). It is my opinion that if Jewish communities–whether in America or elsewhere–historically had disregarded or disdained their own story-tellers as less important pursuits, then the history of the Jewish people might have been lost, perhaps in the way that the story of the Armenians today is virtually lost.
(continued)
Personally, I really enjoy writers like Sherman Alexi, who writes funny but yet very emotional and insightful stories about the American Indian (the Native American) experience. These story-tellers are invaluable, I believe, because they help to frame the entire narrative of a people’s culture, a narrative which defines the multi-faceted complexity and nature of that culture. That narrative then phsycologically and emotionally shapes how everyone else engages that culture. Think of the power of that.
Hey Hertsel,
Thanks for commenting!
Here’s another question–what about demand?
As some filmmakers have said, producing Asian American films is one of the best ways to lose money.
http://youoffendmeyouoffendmyfamily.com/am-i-retarded-for-making-asian-american-films/
I have a feeling that Jewish people are much more likely to be clamoring to hear their own stories, even back in the day. That doesn’t really exist so much in our culture. Jeff Yang wrote about trying to build up demand for the arts in our culture:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/06/the-two-percent-solution-and-building-asian-american-arts/
I can’t say that I really understand it. When I get the money, I’m going to travel around the country and ask people why.
B, thank you, I really enjoy being able to continue the conversation this way. I apologize in advance for the length of this complete post (over 1700 words), but I guess I had a lot to add, so I thank you immensely (and all the other readers) for your indulgence. Thank you also for those links in your previous post, the discussions and comments to me are fascinating. B, you and I might have to go back “on the air” to more fully “air” all of these thoughts and to flesh out the broader discussion. To make this post more digestible, due to the length, I have decided to break it into three separate posts.
So, with regard to the “clamoring” of Jews to hear their own stories, I think this perhaps calls for some perspective. To begin with, let’s consider the number of Jews in the overall population—the best estimate, I believe, is that there are approximately 5.5 to 6 million people in the Unites States that identify themselves (or perhaps that CAN be identified by either their religious belief or lineage) as Jews. I know, for some people it might seem like there has to be more—some probably think that there are 6 million Jews that live just in each of New York City, Fort Lauderdale and Los Angles alone, but there are not.
That number— as many as 6 million Jews in the U.S.—is impressive when you consider that there are probably only about that many Jews that live in the entire state of Israel, and about that many more that are scattered around the REST of the world outside of Israel and the United States. However, that number is less impressive (from a percentage standpoint) when you consider the total population of the United States, which numbers roughly 350 million people. That would mean that Jews, perhaps at best, comprise about 1.5 to 1.7% of the U.S. population. But for argument’s sake, let’s say that the number really is closer to a whopping 7 million Jews in the U.S.—that still would make the number roughly only 2% of the total U.S. population. I would argue that such number, in many respects, is not statistically significant when you consider the number of African Americans in the U.S., and those of so-called Latino descent.
Now as we all know, numbers can be deceiving. Two percent of the population does not necessarily translate into 2% of the influence, or 2% of the buying power, or 2% of anything else that is somehow measurable. Socio-economic factors also matter: money and influence (including political and intellectual influence) each sometimes tends to aggregate and the combination of money and influence together tend to aggregate even more. Nonetheless, the 2% number alone might make you wonder how it is possible that Jews have been able to so effectively disseminate their stories, and for that matter, so heavily influence the story-telling apparatuses, i.e., to disseminate any other story they want to tell (and perhaps, some would argue, even SUPPRESS the stories they do NOT want told).
Part of the success of that story certainly—at least in American culture—arises from the mere passage of time and the sheer diligence of concerted effort put into the pursuit of the arts by Jews (including through financial patronage)—at first in literature, painting, acting and the like, then later on in pursuits such as moviemaking. Story-telling simply was second nature to Jewish culture, and regardless of the medium, Jews were going to find an outlet for that expression, perhaps whether or not anyone in their own community or outside of it was “clamoring” for that story, or for that matter even listening. Is this unique to the Jews? I am certain it is not. Is this alien to Asian culture? I am equally certain it is not.
(continued)
So how do we explain this phenomenon, and perhaps more importantly, how do we explain the arguably different result for the lack of expression of Asian American culture (or perhaps the lack of expression of Asian culture in America, if those two things are different)? A simple and natural explanation would be to say—and as has been said—that Asian American culture (however that is defined, including with Pacific Islander culture, if you wish) and Asian American/Pacific Islander voices cannot be seen as or reduced to a monolith—that the diversity is so complex that it is dizzying, and thus defies definition. This could be true, but is this enough to explain the disparate result? The next explanation, as we have been discussing, is that the Asian American/Pacific Islander community—again, however that is defined, if it can be defined—does not vastly or sufficiently support artistic pursuits, either through participation in the arts, or through substantial financial patronage of the arts, or through even a substantial demand for the end-product. All this might be true, I do not know, but certainly it is worthy of exploration as a topic. So how does this relate to the Jewish experience, or at least the Jewish American experience, and why do we have to be careful not to make comparisons too readily?
Well here’s the dirty little secret about Jews that might explain some of the path to their historic success in the world of the humanities in the U.S., or at least the entertainment industries of literature and moviemaking perhaps more specifically: those Jews were more interested in telling (and maybe hearing and supporting through patronage, too) the stories of white/European Jewry. Historically, perhaps for several centuries, and certainly during the history of Jews in the U.S., there has been an almost exclusive bias to tell the story of the European (non-Iberian Peninsula) Jews, the so-called Ashkenazim. For every “Shindler’s List” or “The Pianist” which tells the plight of European Jews in the Holocaust, there is little or nothing as mainstream to tell the stories, experiences and suffering of the Yemenite Jews or Persian (Iranian) Jews or most other Jews of non-European descent, the so-called Sephardim and/or Mizrahim. This bias is not just present in the culture of the story-telling experience; it is present in the culture. This phenomenon was evident in the variation of waves of Jewish immigration to America in the 19th and 20th centuries, as well as in the variation of waves of immigration to Israel in the 20th century and after. Historically, many if not most Jews of European or Ashkenazi descent in early America—including those of (then) recent immigration status—looked down upon their non-European Sephardim/Mizrahim brethren. Over 100 years later that bias still is reflected in the story-telling apparatus and the messages that emanate (or often do not emanate) from that apparatus.
(continued)
So what is my point? It was not always and necessarily Jews (or all nationalities of Jews) that clamored for their “own” story, although many Jews definitely were significant and often benevolent patrons of the arts. The stories themselves, because they often or generally told (and still tell) the story of a broader white or European experience, whether in America or elsewhere, resonated with a substantial non-Jewish audience, such that it was not necessary for just Jews (or even all Jews) to want to hear or even demand (through their wallets) to hear those stories. Of course, we now can think of this as the great assimilation story. This phenomenon perhaps explains (in the limited Asian American experience) the success of writers such as Amy Tan to the exclusion of some others, where the stories (some have argued) are “whitened” down. But I think that there are lessons to be learned and avoided from this Jewish American experience.
First, to generate wider appeal for Asian American/Pacific Islander stories and story-telling apparatuses (i.e., production involving Asian American/Pacific Islander individuals regardless of the story being told), I believe the white/European majority of audiences likely will have to see some message or commonality that resonates in the stories being told. This does NOT mean that the stories of Asian Americans/Pacific Islanders can or should be ignored in the pursuit of the dollars or admiration of exclusively white audiences—but it also means that the buying power of those audiences cannot be ignored either. Louis B. Mayer and Samuel Goldwyn, who together formed and founded what ultimately became MGM studios (and even Steven Spielberg, for that matter), did not become Hollywood titans because they only told Jewish stories, in fact that was hardly the case. They told heart-warming—I know, many would say antiseptic, “white-washed”—stories of Americana. Perhaps these were stories to which Jews related, but so did the Irish, Italians, and Germans, and other white Anglo-Saxon Protestants for that matter. This is the lesson that great moviemakers like Ang Lee I think have discovered, in a weird way. You can, for example, make a great movie about two gay cowboys and convince a generally homophobic American public to pay to see it—the themes of forbidden love, longing, isolation and belonging in the end all were transcendent. The proof is in THAT pudding.
Second, to avoid the negative charge that the stories and/or story-making processes are biased or discriminatory towards or against any specific Asian American or Pacific Islander experience or story, I believe that the stories and processes themselves have to be all-inclusive. In other words, although Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders arguably are NOT monolithic groups or cohesive blocks of money and influence in real life, perhaps they have to work together as if they were. There can be strength in numbers. Also, I think that financial patronage matters. Very well-off Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders (or at least more of them if the argument we are discussing is true) might need to put more of their money where their collective hearts and minds are—into the investment of those stories and the people that produce those stories, namely the artists, writers, actors, directors, musicians, and yes, even the philosophers. All the variations of the humanities need to thrive, and all the variations of the stories and story-telling apparatuses need to thrive also.
Anyway, those are my fuller thoughts that I did not have time to fully flesh out (or even think of) during our podcast. Now I am prepared for any flames or milder comments that might be directed my way. Please, nothing personal, it’s all for healthy debate. Plus, my family members might be reading this…. (that was me trying to lighten the mood).
Re: Asians not supporting Asian arts with $ question still remains why stereotypes are perpetuated or remain unquestioned by those ‘in power’.
Is it a challenge to get ‘Asian community’ – to ‘unite’ by those in power.
Is it purely a case of ‘ you guys don’t support yourselves, so why should we’? but if so, why do stereotypes persist? With or without the numbers, with or without funding, it still doesn’t make any sense why ( for those few who have chosen a career in the media-related arts) we are almost always relegated to the sidelines to play stereotypes, and have our modern cultural works ‘appropriated’ ( Akira 2013, last airbender, dragonball, genghis khan etc etc)
Maybe it’s the American way of putting some group down until they stand up and fight back, like i said, a test. But you only need to read this blog to find out what Asians have had to put up with, and internalised and realise the effects it’s had on us as human beings never mind an amorphous-like ‘community’. Agreed some of it maybe self-inflicting but even if there is not enough unity ( monetary or emotionally or whatever) it certainly isn’t helped by perpetuating stereotypes.
This is less to do with storytelling, and more to do with imbalance of media power as propaganda, which takes this conversation down predictable asian-blog routes that doesn’t need endless repetition.
On one last note, if , as some believe that Jewish culture originated from Khazarian strand of people, then technically, having this Turkic gene means that once upon a time, maybe, our ancient bloodline was actually once related. And if you are actually to believe that, then in a practical sense, it still doesn’t make sense why Asians are so media demonised by ‘those in power’. Again, the only rational answer? For those in power, to stay in power. What is the flipside of jealousy? Indirectly, compassion.
Zionism has nothing to do with culture. It’s a cultural perversion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guQE9IRRKM4&feature=related
Thanks guys for an interesting podcast. Peace.
You raise an interesting point about the Sephardic Jews. It’s funny because even in the American discussion of Jews, we’re almost always talking about White Jews. We even did a pocast with one!
I agree with you 100% on the broader experience, and yes, there probably is a hurdle with the race thing. As an example, there’s this absolutely fabulous TV series called “Being Erica” from Canada. You can actually watch it on Hulu. I blogged it here:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/03/being-erica/
(You can see the synopsis/what it’s about.)
The themes are fairly universal–family, love, career, unfulfilled dreams–and the main character and her family happen to be Jewish (there are some REALLY REALLY funny Jewish themes later in season 2/3). I think most people can see themselves in Erica, but I wonder if they would see themselves as easily in Erica had she been a darker Jew or a black person or an Asian person.
If you look at movies and literature from overseas, it’s clear that people of all colors can see themselves in people of different colors, but I wonder if that cross-cultural thing takes place when the people are right here. That was one of the amazing things about Cosby–people were able to see themselves in a black family. When I think about Amy Tan, I think about a culture that is alien to me or any other Asian person I know. But…I’m hopeful that somewhere sometime along the line, people will be able to cross that line.
I like the concept of the 2% project, and I do wonder why there isn’t that clamoring–regardless of what the rest of the world thinks. For me personally, I do clamor!
I also agree that there may have to be some kind of antiseptic kind of storytelling. My hope would be that there could be both at the same time. Those who want the Hallmark-style movies could go for Hallmark, and those who want something edgier could go for edgier.
How are rich Asians supposed to support Asian Americans when before the last two decades the Asian demographic was diluted across America, and the rich Asians themselves earned those riches only by catering to white Americans, as well as assimilating into white power structures and patronages?
In addition, taking a stand for Asian interests could be perceived as anti-American by some very heavy hitters that could make or break you.
But you must be careful of others trying to shape your story, even before it is told. Bill Cosby insisted on his story concept. Producers and critics both strongly resisted, and said that his portrayal of an upper middle-class Black family was “unrealistic.” (As if there were NO Black families headed by two professionals!) Prior to Cosby, the only Black families that people felt comfortable seeing were predominantly lower-class to lower middle-class, with very few exceptions.
(For the record, I personally know MANY Cosby-like families.)
But it wouldn’t surprise me, if there is similar resistance to Asian stories that do not fit the accepted stereotypes. When Asian men are depicted as strong, passionate, and emotionally available, it will be “unrealistic.” When Asian women, are portayed as strong, opinionated, demanding, and non-submissive, it will be “unrealistic.” When Asians families are characterized as having money problems, and struggling financially, it will be “unrealistic.” And MOST of all, when Asians are shown to have problems with prejudice, marginalization, and negative media caricatures, from the larger society, THAT will certainly be seen as “UNREALISTIC!” It will clearly all the work of Left-wing liberals who are trying to play the Asian race card! That stuff doesn’t REALLY happen!!!
True that. Actually, there’s a resistance against Asian men in general. Which I think Hertsel kind of referenced in his comment–we need to be able to love our own stories first.
This is a very interesting podcast. I think that Chinese culture is fundamentally different from Jewish culture. It will take too much time for me to explain everything. Maybe I’ll just clear up things up piece by piece.
@Alpha Asian,
I don’t agree with your claim that much of the cultural heritage of China was either suppressed or destroyed during the Cultural Revolution.
It is a wide spread belief in China now. But every time I ask somebody (in real life or during an online message board discussion) to explain exactly what the “good” cultural heritage was destroyed in the 10 year Cultural Revolution or 50 years of Communist ruling, nobody can answer. For years, 0 person answered this question, but I often see it in the media. I even saw the famous movie director An Lee said this in an interview not long ago, I don’t know what basis he had.
Think about it, we have a culture that lasted more than 3000 years (some say 5000 years). There were wars, changing of the dynasties, and even the conquers and hundreds of years of being ruled by “barbarians” (Mongolian of Yuan dynasty and Manchu of Qing dynasty). Our culture survived all of these, but couldn’t survive this short 10 years of chaotic Culture Revolution? If there is anything didn’t survive, it must be either no good or obsolete, time for it to die.
It is true that many Buddhist temples were destroyed(a lot of them were rebuilt or restored later), a lot of antiques owned by private people were lost ( my family lost quite a bit, but we lost more and our most valuable things in 1930′s when Japan invaded China),……
What else?
In term of values and believes, it is a complicated story. Overall, I think as a nation, we grew a lot after this, we are more sophisticated, and less bonded to Confucianism and traditions (Mao probably partially achieved his goal on this. I think my generation is more daring)….
In the late 70′s after Deng’s government announced that the Culture Revolution officially ended, I often heard people saying that the trust and honesty among people was lost (because during that period, people often told on each other, some people were betrayed by their best friends or family members…). But this new capitalism started by Deng destroyed more, the morality of China a lot worse today than late 70′s, ……. Actually, I think people still trust each other and are as “honest” as before, just that life is more complicated, more people are educated and not that naive anymore.
What was really lost after the Culture Revolution, I think, is the credibility of the Chinese government, the tragedy happened in 89 made it worse. This is the really bad thing for China.
The story about today’s China’s educational system is also complicated. It does not really focus on math and science, it actually focuses on the “Gao Kao”(College Entrance Exam), like the old days, it was focused on Imperial Exam. Mao didn’t like this kind of education system, that’s why during the Culture Revolution, Chinese educational system was on a complete overhaul. For 10 year, there was no “Gao Kao”. From 1966 to 1970, universities didn’t admit any students. Starting 1970, universities use a “recommendation” system to admit young people from factories, rural countryside and military, those students were called 工农兵学员（workers, peasants and soldiers students). But this system wasn’t good either. After Mao’s death in 1976, Deng re-installed Gao Kao in late 1977.
When I was in high school (it was one of the best high school in China, I took a very competitive exam to get in), we only had subjects of Chinese, math, physics, chemistry, English and politics(about communist party history, government propaganda kind of craps), we had couple of months biology, but was canceled, because Gao Kao only tested on those six subjects (I’m not sure what today’s Gao kao tests on).
At about second year of my high school (I don’t remember exactly now, maybe the second half of the first year), students were separated, those who really interested in humanity or not very good at math and science formed a small humanity class (in my year, we started with about 200 students, separated in 4 class, total about 20-30 students went to this small humanity class), the history was added to their subject, physics and chemistry were probably dropped (I’m not sure what exactly what subject they had), math were less rigorous, and they took a different Gao Kao (math was easier, Chinese was more difficult).
After Gao Kao, most of my classmate (40+ of them) got into some kind of universities, probably less than 10 didn’t pass the exam, so couldn’t get into any schools. One those who failed Gao Kao, changed subject to humanity and retake the Gao Kao the following year, he got into Beijing University (the most prestigious university in China)…..
to be continued.
Please continue, I would like to read more.
(continued)
Even though it was easier for humanity major students to get into university at my time, It doesn’t mean those student are not smart in general. There were only small percentage, probably less than 5%, of high school graduates can get into universities of any kind in late 70′s and 80′ 。
When I was a teen, even though I was super good at math and physics in high school, I wasn’t interested in them at all, I actually liked to read history book and other humanity related stuff on my own (some of my high school and college friends and classmates were like this too). Why didn’t we go for a humanity major? Now thinking back, there were several reasons.
First of all, I started college in early 80′s, soon after 1976 when the Culture Revolution officially ended. During the Culture Revolution , humanity fields were hit the hardest. Many novelists, writers, historians, journalists, professors and scholars who worked in humanity departments of universities and institutions were publicly criticized, locked up, sent to labor camp for years,…, just because of their works and opinions, or had to sell their conscience to become the mouth piece of the government, willingly or unwillingly. Actually, many people worked in science and technology fields also got in trouble, but usually not for their research or academic work (my mother worked in an university, she was locked up for a while, criticized, whipped and bitten, but for reasons had nothing to do with her academic works). So in those years soon after the Culture Revolution, it was kind of common knowledge among “intellectuals” (any body who got a college education were considered as an intellectual in China before 80′s) that in humanity areas, there was no freedom, and it was “dangerous”. My father used to buy me history books when he saw a good one, but somehow he suddenly stopped doing that when I began to show some genuine interests in reading them. I think that my mother said something to him.
Secondly, We thought that we lag behind the West mainly in science and technology, that’s why we were beaten so badly, and we need to catch up on that. In 1920′s, the New Culture Movement(新文化运动）leaders proposed that we should learn Democracy and Science from the West. In late 70′s and through out 80′s, after Deng opened the door to the West, I think China were shocked that how much we lag behind not only the West, but also Hong Kong (Hong Kong used to be just a small port city under British rules, no comparison to Shanghai) , Taiwan, Korea and Singapore. Leaders had a sense of urgency, so we often saw the stories about scientists in newspapers and magazines (not many household have TV at the time). Scientists had very high status at the time.
Thirdly, humanity education was and still is very weak in China (I think it is probably the same in Hong Kong and Taiwan too), so children’s interests and talents in this area can not be cultivated or developed. When I saw how my kids schools here teach reading, writing, social study, history, art,…., I realized that China didn’t and still doesn’t have the resources, teachers, knowledge and way of thinking to teach humanity this way. Through out of my school years in 70′s, I’d never had many writing assignments (probably less than 20 total in my school years), never been taught how to write an article or an assay. I probably only had 2 years of very boring history education in middle school (mostly memorizing the boring historical events which made no sense to me at all).
(to be continued)
@Raguel,
I’m very busy during the summer. Please be patient:)
I agree with Raguel the Learner. Interesting and I want to hear more!
Thank you for writing this, Chinese Mom.
I will be patient and eagerly awaiting moar
Chinese Mom wrote: I don’t agree with your claim that much of the cultural heritage of China was either suppressed or destroyed during the Cultural Revolution.
Actually I agree with you that Chinese culture has remained fairly intact after the Cultural Revolution. What I was referring to was that much (not all) of the cultural heritage in its tangible form (i.e. temples, artwork) was destroyed and the cultural heritage in its intangible form (i.e. religious practices, customs, thought) were suppressed.
Things that are suppressed can go underground and can certainly come back. As you said 5,000 years of culture that Sinicized numerous barbarian dynasties doesn’t go away just like that.
Chinese Mom, I’ll echo everybody else’s sentiment: tell us more!
For me, because I really hated history class I had before, always hated those political propaganda brainwashing stuff (when I came to America, I surprisingly found out that Chinese government wasn’t good at propaganda and brainwashing at all, too naive and stupid comparing to the West) since I was very little (I knew if I go for humanity area, I would have to take more of those craps), wasn’t very good at writing, so when we were given the chance to go to that humanity class in early high school, I didn’t even consider it. I think most of my classmates didn’t go to that class for the similar reasons. From that point on, our path to the science and technology fields was decided.
Since the Gao Kao was re-installed in 1977, China’s primary and secondary education driven by Gao Kao got crazier and crazier. First Gao Kao, then test to good high school started about a year before I went to high school, then test to good middle school(in China, middle and high schools are physically together, but after three years of middle school, students had to take another test to decide which high school to go to), …… Because of these tests, cram schools or after school classes were flourished, specially the math olympia, started even for elementary school kids. The government realized that this kind of tests frenzy isn’t good, so they made the policies to forbid elementary schools to make kids take an entrance test some years ago, then stopped tests to the middle schools in recent years (at least in Beijing), so that all kids go to schools near their homes. But parents and schools still find ways to get around it.
I think another reason that China’s education seems to focus so much on math and science is that math and science can be tested objectively, easier to drill and see the results quickly.
All these factors work together makes Chinese students really good at taking tests. They are not only good at math and science, but also English. Considering English is only a second language, a lots of high school graduates in China can score pretty high in tests like TOEFL, SAT and GRE. Many kids who once get in to the college, lost their interests in anything. College is the time for many young people to catch up on their lost childhood.
@Alpha Asian,
I’m sorry that I misunderstood about your comments. A lots of Chinese do believe that the Culture Revolution and Communists destroyed our “good” culture, so they blame every bad things that happened afterword to that.
Certainly good info. I can’t stand propaganda either. There’s something within my brain that either makes me vomit it all out, or makes me just not able to understand anything propaganda is telling me.
O_O
Even if Asians, particularly Asian men decided to specialize in the humanities in the American colleges and universities, I think there will be backlash against it. Having focused on Byzantine and Islamic Studies in an Ivy League school as a Chinese American, I was able to sense the disapproval from most of my classmates, who of course happened to be these typical White Americans from well to do families. Just imagine if Asian Americans made inroads in the liberal arts like they have with computer science or engineering in these prestigious institutions, and see how others will react. I think there will be a perception of Asians trying to take over. So again, it is not easy as it seems.
We’re safe with engineering and the hard sciences, because many Whites students stay away from these subjects, and major in the humanities.
You mean it’s not enough to say “I’m from Brooklyn” with a Yankee accent, just like in Captain America?
Gee, Asians trying to take over. Sounds familiar…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikNcAzIp_EY
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homefront_(video_game)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Peril (have a look at the funny cartoons)
Just remember to shout out that you “love America and its freedoms” constantly, also claim that you are one of the good noble freedom loving Asians as opposed to the dirty evil communist/ imperial ones.
LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzqx-lDoCr8&NR=1
LOL I had to do a double take. For a moment there I thought this was Iraq or Afghanistan, but then the distinctive “Asian” accent made me realize my mistake. XD
Here’s more of that Asians taking over theme again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcYCvwFhkuI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Dawn_(2011_film)
^ “In March 2011, the Los Angeles Times reported that MGM is changing the villains in its Red Dawn remake from Chinese to North Korean in order to maintain access to China’s lucrative box office. The changes reportedly cost less than $1 million and involve changing an opening sequence summarizing the story’s fictional backdrop, re-editing two scenes and using digital technology to transform many Chinese symbols to Korean. The changes will not eliminate all references to China though will give North Korea a much larger role in the coalition that invades the U.S. Producer Trip Vinson stated, “We were initially very reluctant to make any changes, but after careful consideration we constructed a way to make a scarier, smarter and more dangerous ‘Red Dawn’ that we believe improves the [Yellow Peril theme, while allowing us to sell AMERICA! and FREEDOMS! to audiences in Asia]”
Words in brackets are my edits, lol.
Hey Chr, don’t worry. I propose the following behavioral adaptations:
1. Carry small American flags around that you can wave happily, or mount on your SUV or truck.
2. Constantly tell people that you are AMERICAN!, that you are from Brooklyn, maybe even shout it out, before you are asked where you are from. You don’t want people to have any doubt.
3. Hang out with white boys and be eager to please. If there’s any trouble, they will protect you, trust me.
4. If all else fails plead that you are a peace loving, noble Asian, like a Tibetan or Mongol, and not a communist or imperial dirty Asian the lynch mob is looking for.
5. Take heart that even though some terrible things might happen to you, your sister and mother will be well taken care of. As a peace-loving vegetarian ascetic Asian man, this should give you some serenity.
6. Abort your sons because they are symbols of Asian imperialism and “Asian patriarchy”, have only daughters.
7. Support American troops abroad. They fight for freedoms and liberties that others take for granted, for example in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Haha, sorry guys. I got carried away.
If not come up with passive aggressive remarks sarcastic remarks stereotyping whole groups, while complaining about stereotyping… Oh get it, it all sounds very intellectual, cause you can sum it all up as irony.
Pardon the interruption, but I think the thread was worth far more before we got off on a tangent.
Byron mentioned that the Chinese should also focus on the Humanities. In America, Humanities are the core of academia. When the mainstream thinks of the colleges and universities, what usually comes to mind is subjects like History, Language, Literature and the Social Sciences. Not Computer Science, Finance, Hardcore Chemistry or Physics which most Asians prefer to study. Another thing that is not mentioned anywhere, is that Asian Americans are overrepresented in higher learning, yet they are underrepresented in academia positions. And academia is mostly about the humanities, and of course, the elitism or status if you will. I think we can safely say our underrepresentation in the humanities, is like the lack of Asian role models in Hollywood. The status quo wants to keep it like it is.
I can only find 2 Asian American guys who are professors of a very atypical “humanities” subject. The second guy is badass if you ask me. A Korean American professor who teaches Ottoman Turkish poetry. Talking about blowing stereotypes out of the water!
1) http://www.smith.edu/history/faculty_lim.php
2) http://www.brynmawr.edu/news/2006-02-23/kim.shtml
Ottoman Turkish poetry! Love it! That’s badass!
I agree to a certain point. Sure, professors and institutions have their values, and it usually doesn’t include empowered Asian Americans, which is why we have the whole Tan/Kingston/Hwang stuff that much of academia perpetuates. But we’re also not stepping up to the plate. We don’t follow our passions nearly enough, and our families don’t support our passions nearly enough.
Hi Jman, I’m sorry it came across like I was stereotyping people. I was actually trying to write something like a survival guide, you know, like how to survive volcanoes, like SAS Survival Guide, Zombie Survival Guide, etc.
I don’t think anybody behaves like that right now. If there are, I would immediately sprint for a wall and dash my head against it.
I don’t believe that the status quo arises out of a vacuum, and simply exists because that’s the way it is, always was and will always be. I believe that often times things are the way they are because there are purposes and objectives to be met. What era was Vincent Chin slain in, and what was constantly being put out on the airwaves and the print media? When did America’s age of Islamophobia begin? Correct me if I’m wrong, but Jaehwan is exploring the idea that perhaps the under-representation in several fields in America is due to some sort of cultural bias. My question to that is: what if it’s actually other forces at work that have largely kept Asian Americans out of those fields, and that these forces have an impact on the decisions of entire communities, and populations of people?
A further question by way of illustration: how is it that there is only ONE Frank Chin able to say the things he says, and why was it necessary for him to be so hyper-aggressive and threatening just to be heard?
A further addendum, much has probably already been said about the works of Amy Tan and Maxine Kingston Hong and their ilk. Do you believe that whitey’s (pardon the use of this term) cultivation of their works and the invisibilisation of Asian male perspectives arises entirely out of some lacuna of racio-sexual bias? Do we understand how the print media works, what the uses of publishing were before the internet, and how ideas are spread via academia?
I would like to call things as they are.
Byron, I agree that we don’t step up to the plate. You have to understand that unpragmatic endeavors (those without direct or immediate benefits) is not encouraged in Confucian based societies. This is what led the Chinese to abandon their intellectual and seafaring activities during the Ming Dynasty, which ultimately has changed the course of history which is still in effect today. This mode of thinking is very strong in us. However, I have to say that when it comes to the humanities, there is a niche for it in China and other parts of East Asia. So the problem that we are discussing is not really about China, it pertains to Asian Americans. Like Raguel was saying, there are many forces at play besides a lack of enthusiam on our part and the lack of support from our families. These are the same issues if we are to ask why there aren’t lead Asian men in Hollywood. I think the answers are quite simple. But I don’t want to put the blame entirely on White racism like some others do. It took many decades of violent unrest for Blacks to get “egalitarian” status. They had to fight for it. What makes you think that Asian Americans can just ignore the problem and it will go away.
I STILL DON’T UNDERSTAND WHY MANY CHINESE LIKE TO COMPARE THEMSELVES WITH THE JEWS, WHEN IN FACT THESE 2 GROUPS OF PEOPLE DO NOT SHARE MUCH IN COMMON. HAVING AN OLD CULTURE WITH AN EMPHASIS ON EDUCATION AND MONEY ISN’T EXCLUSIVE ONLY TO THE CHINESE AND JEWS .
@ Chinese Mom
“I think that Chinese culture is fundamentally different from Jewish culture. It will take too much time for me to explain everything. Maybe I’ll just clear up things up piece by piece”.
BEING A CHINESE AMERICAN, I STILL VIEW THE EUROPEANS AT TOP OF THEIR GAME, WITH THEIR CULTURAL, ECONOMIC AND SCIENTIFIC ACHIEVEMENTS. OR ELSE WHY WOULD MANY CHINESE AND JEWS WANT TO EMMIGRATE INTO THEIR SOCIETIES?
Something to think about!
Something that hasn’t been discussed is the relationship between SES and choice of major in college. Research has shown that lower SES students are more inclined to view college as a means to an end, i.e. a way to make money in the near future. On the other hand, higher SES students are more inclined to view college as an end in and of itself, i.e. the pursuit of knowledge and learning. You can probably guess why these two population groups view college differently, so I won’t spell it out for you.
What that does mean, however, is that the humanities and social sciences, field which less financially lucrative, are disproportionately populated by students from higher SES backgrounds. And in the United States, individuals from higher SES backgrounds tend to be white. As a former undergraduate application, I can attest that my personal observations corroborate the research. Asians, Latinos, and African-Americans leaned towards STEM, business, and law for their prospective majors. Meanwhile, social sciences and especially humanities were incredibly white. This is not ONLY an Asian issue, it’s a people of color issue, because it’s a class issue.
Asians are getting there, but remember SES isnt just about money. It’s about cultural and social capital. To a certain extent, studying something not financially lucrative requires a good amount of personal and family security. You have to know that you and your family will be OK without your immediate financial contributions. For many people of color, Asians included, we’re not there yet.
Etain,
Let’s put this way. Many Asian guys are just better off going to trade schools, and opt out of the colleges and universities altogether. And the reason for this is that they rarely rise to leadership and top management positions in their careers, and most remain as anonymous worker drones for some corporate company. I have some Asian buddies who graduated from the Ivy Leagues to become IT/Techie gurus. They could have save themselves the money and gone straight into technical school, which would have led them to the same positions. In the end it’s all really the same. An Asian guy with a Harvard degree is just another Asian guy!
“Something that hasn’t been discussed is the relationship between SES and choice of major in college. Research has shown that lower SES students are more inclined to view college as a means to an end, i.e. a way to make money in the near future. On the other hand, higher SES students are more inclined to view college as an end in and of itself, i.e. the pursuit of knowledge and learning. You can probably guess why these two population groups view college differently, so I won’t spell it out for you”.
Let me see if I understand you correctly, Chr.
You are saying that Asian American men should stop going to colleges and universities for higher education and go to trade schools instead, because they will never amount to anything in life?
You got anymore sage advice to impart to us?
Raguel,
Yes, but I disagree with the “not doing anything in life” part. All these Asian dudes whose parents shove big bucks for them to attend prestigious schools, end up being some lifeless worker for a big corporate company. Do you call this success?
Several guys I know who attended the Ivies majored in Computer Science, and are now IT managers. Do you need a degree from Columbia University to become an IT manager? How about learning all those skills in a technical school for a fraction of the cost, instead of getting a piece of paper from a top university that means very little at the end?
Do you think it’s worth it? Do you call this a sound ROI (Return of Investment)?
I already mentioned that the Humanities is racially charged. In my undergrad days, I had a professor who happened to be Jewish told me that I would be wasting my time with a Humanities major because I’m non-White. He didn’t say it as is, but was nicer about it by elaborating that I didn’t have the “background”.
There was a NPR podcast about Asians being competent, but lacking in charisma/masculinity needed for top management positions. They interviewed an AM professor. You might not agree with him.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=135513478
What’s interesting is that the host brought up the topic of trendsetters, and how a college dropout Bill Gates founded Microsoft. Here you have Asian Americans who are overeducated with college degrees, and despite high salaries are overworked, but are overlooked when it comes to being influential.
There was a NPR podcast about Asians being competent, but lacking in charisma/masculinity needed for top management positions.
Right! As if White managers are “charismatic and masculine!” Hahahaha!
Chr:
I probably have a Ha-Joon Chang post related to this topic coming up, but let me ask this:
Is the “skills” question all that different in any other profession, aside from maybe engineering, teaching, law, and medicine?
In other words, I think very few of us are in professions that use most or any of the “skills” we picked up in college. From a skills standpoint, a college degree is neither necessary nor even all that useful if you want to be a writer, mortgage broker, real estate agent, insurance salesman, computer IT dude, stockbroker, web designer, accountant, roof repairman, mechanic, art director, photographer, interior designer, nonprofit director, financial analyst, institutional securities trader, supermarket manager, or supermarket conglomerate manager.
Colleges, in general, don’t do very much to educate people towards careers. You need one for the status, and you learn life-thinking skills, but career-wise, most people don’t learn much that helps them in what they eventually do.
Well, maybe accounting belongs on the “college” list. My point is that most jobs you learn on-the-job. College should be viewed as something that teaches thinking, not necessarily career skills.
“Colleges, in general, don’t do very much to educate people towards careers. You need one for the status, and you learn life-thinking skills, but career-wise, most people don’t learn much that helps them in what they eventually do”.
Then why are many Asians stuck in a rut when it comes to their careers? Better yet, why are the Asians are not on the same success ladder with the Jews? I hate to bring up the discussion of comparing Jews with Asians again, because we are asking one crucial question, that is, why are Asians not benefiting from their Ivy League education.
Byron, I taking a line from Koku: You ask for too much. Does this sound familiar?
Chr.:
“Then why are many Asians stuck in a rut when it comes to their careers?”
Are they really stuck in a rut? I think this is a good question to ask. Your Ivy friends who are in IT are probably right where they want to be. Some of the lawyers on this blog are partners, some of the designers are happy designing, some of the wealth managers are managing wealth, and I know some who are real estate agents who don’t aspire to be managers. Asians are doing great in the field of design and computers.
So you’re really talking about management–namely people who want to be managers. Is this correct?
The management thing could come about for a variety of reasons. Not a lot of Asians in politics, not enough Asians studying humanities (and learning to relate), not enough Asians in the media, racial prejudice, etc.
“I hate to bring up the discussion of comparing Jews with Asians again, because we are asking one crucial question, that is, why are Asians not benefiting from their Ivy League education.”
I dunno too, but that sounds like a great reason to go to trade schools en masse.
Don’t cha think?
Waddya mean Asian’s are not benefitting from their Ivy League Education?
Going to a prestigious school as a low profile Asian in order to secure a career that didn’t require it in the 1st place is a waste of money and time. Would you agree?
Do White people or even Asians care if you attended a top school, and now you are just an average Asian Joe Schmoe designer or real estate agent? Remember, we are talking about Asian empowerment and influence. The fact that you’ve attended Harvard has no bearing on your success later in life, and the reason is quite obvious – because you are just a minority. “White” Shoe boys doesn’t apply to Asian guys.
And this is the reason why I advocate for trade schools, because most Asians become high paying tradesmen. No one cares about the plumber, or the Asian guy with the Harvard degree sitting at the office cubicle of a Fortune 500 company. He’s just concern with making a living.
Humanities is pretty much rigged in favor for Whites to study. No one will take an Asian academic seriously.
“Are they really stuck in a rut? I think this is a good question to ask. Your Ivy friends who are in IT are probably right where they want to be. Some of the lawyers on this blog are partners, some of the designers are happy designing, some of the wealth managers are managing wealth, and I know some who are real estate agents who don’t aspire to be managers. Asians are doing great in the field of design and computers”…..”The management thing could come about for a variety of reasons. Not a lot of Asians in politics, not enough Asians studying humanities (and learning to relate), not enough Asians in the media, racial prejudice, etc”.
Lol, so correct me if I’m wrong, but this is your logic on why Asians should quit higher education and learn trades like plumbing en masse:
Because all the Asians you have ever known who graduated from a top university has been a faceless nobody, because white people don’t care about where you studied, because your success in life is limited by you being born a minority, and because nobody takes Asian academics seriously.
Do I summarise your position correctly?
Just a light-hearted aside, what about quitting university to become a highly paid PUA Guru, or a PUA internet stealth marketer? How would that compare to plumbing or garbage collection? What about becoming the one-man unauthorized propaganda wing for eugenics aka “HBD expert” aka Cho Seung Hui part two?
ROFL
Yes, if the cream of the crop Asians can’t make membership into the Elite Exclusive Club, then our existence in America has been reduced to mere basic survival purposes. And the reason why I say this is because Asians care more about how status can be used to earn a good living, instead of for higher and more noble self aggrandizing, and self serving purposes that the Jews are known for doing, a group that Byron likes to compare Asians with.
“Because all the Asians you have ever known who graduated from a top university has been a faceless nobody, because white people don’t care about where you studied, because your success in life is limited by you being born a minority, and because nobody takes Asian academics seriously’.
Chr:
I must admit, Chr., that I don’t understand your position fully.
So you’re saying that if you had a son or daughter, you would advocate trade school?
Your statement above confuses me too, because there ARE Asians in the Elite Exclusive Club. Steven Chu and Eric Shinseki are Cabinet members. David Wu, for the longest time, was a prominent US Congressman. Francis Fukuyama is one of the top American political thinkers. There are lots of top managers at Intel, Google, and other tech companies. Connie Chung for a long time was a prominent news anchor. People in academia knew Amy Chua, even before Tiger Mom.
Here, check this out:
http://www.committee100.org/aboutus/aboutus-members.php
Check out the bios. These people are ALL elite. Their organization often meets with Presidents, Senators, big business executives, etc.
Let me just say that I don’t think that any of those people in the C-100 are necessarily better than you or me. But in terms of influence and money, they’re what most people would call “elite,” which is what we’re talking about here.
Keep in mind too that this C-100 thing isn’t comprehensive. I don’t see Jen-Hsun Huang or Stephen Chu or Connie Chung or Amy Chua on the list. There are LOTs more where those came from.
Now you may have a point about people passing over Asians for management positions. But there are many who do make it through to become top managers and elite people in their fields.
Yes, because it’s cheaper, and most Asians whether in the trade schools or the Ivy Leagues are all the same. I don’t see any outstanding characters or trendsetters who can empower Asians, let alone influence people. They just do well in life is all I can say.
” must admit, Chr., that I don’t understand your position fully.
Then Asians should stop complaining how they are injustices and discrimination working against them. But again, why do you compare us to the Jews, and there are other Asians out there who do the same? Simple, we’re not good enough.
Did you know when I visiting the Columbia University Campus, I saw many Jewish groups recruiting other Jews for a variety of activities, including involvement with the State of Israel. When you think of Asians in a University, what comes to mind is the overstudious nerd who hides inside the library and refrains from any social interaction.
“Your statement above confuses me too, because there ARE Asians in the Elite Exclusive Club. Steven Chu and Eric Shinseki are Cabinet members. David Wu, for the longest time, was a prominent US Congressman. Francis Fukuyama is one of the top American political thinkers. There are lots of top managers at Intel, Google, and other tech companies. Connie Chung for a long time was a prominent news anchor. People in academia knew Amy Chua, even before Tiger Mom”.
So you’re saying that if you had a son or daughter, you would advocate trade school?”
Chr:
What about that C-100 link that I provided above? They’ve got designers, managers at Apple and Google, songwriters, media powerhouses, etcetera. These people set trends, no?
As for complaining about discrimination in management (which is what we’re talking about, right?), I don’t do that much of it. I complain about the media and literature, and sometimes about management. I think I hit the right balance because discrimination is far worse in Hollywood than it is at Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley.
@Chr…
Those Asian bodies/groups in uni organizes awesome Asian dance parties and Karaoke parties that were so Asian that even the rice-chasers are too intimated to turn up uninvited.
And we all know that Jews are not capable of committing genocide right? That’s what the media tells us.
Raquel, You said: Just a light-hearted aside, what about quitting university to become a highly paid PUA Guru, or a PUA internet stealth marketer? How would that compare to plumbing or garbage collection?
Why not? I’m all for it. You will save your parents’ hard earned dollars on a future that may not guarantee you anything, but maybe a piece of paper, a life of servitude, and discrimination from the powers to be. At least you get to develop interpersonal skills by being a PUA, either for the better or the worse, something that an Ivy League education will never teach you. I suppose there’s a bright side to everything!
And those Asian employees at Goldman or Morgan are just work drones. You know they are happy to see us regulated into that kind of position. Hollywood is definately a form of the Elite Exclusive Club, and I think many of us know why. It’s about show business and being high profile.
This goes back to my take that most Asians don’t benefit from the Ivy League Instititions when it comes to attaining power and influence in America. I don’t see any difference between the Asian dude who went to a public institution and the one who went to an Ivy League. Now with Whites, its a completely different story. You actually see a stark difference between those who attended state schools and those who graduated from the Ivy Leagues. The ones from the latter generally appear sharper, more polished, but a lot more arrogant.
“I complain about the media and literature, and sometimes about management. I think I hit the right balance because discrimination is far worse in Hollywood than it is at Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley”.
Humanities majors, in fact, often rise to the top. I can’t even recall a U.S. President who majored in anything other than humanities (usually economics or history). I believe this outward dismissal of the humanities hurts Asian Americans more than any other issue afflicting us. The Jews, as we discuss on the podcast, shaped their own narratives. We’ve done good work in getting our stories out there, but we can do better.
College is a place where you don’t learn anything really useful in real life and you have to put yourself into a mountain of debt in order to achieve this. As far as having a narrative, you don’t need a worthless humanities degree to do something that humanity has been doing for thousands of years.
The problem with the idea of having a compelling narrative for Asian-Americans is that there is really nothing interesting or fascinating about a group of people who are, for all intents and purposes, honorary, copy-cat whites. Where’s the novelty in that?
Unlike Jews or Blacks, Asian-Americans have not experienced sustained, systematic persecution except for a few events in history that no one cares about except irrelevant “social activist” types. The dominant story of Asian-Americans has been that of “model minority” which is really a story of assimilating to the system as mindlessly as possible for materialistic success. Our parents slaved long hours working in the grocery or dry-cleaning store so that we can go to fancy universities and emerge over-educated but not necessarily better people, with a mountain of student debt, so that we can be compliant peons for Corporate America. That’s our story, for the most part.
In order to have a narrative, you need a sense of community. But there really is no such thing as a genuine sense of community left in America anymore, is there? I don’t know how many of us grew up in a place where you needed your neighbors and your neighbors needed you, people looked out for each other, and children played in safe, neighborhood street, etc. The most dominant theme in Asian-American narrative, at least that of my generation, is one of alienation, of being the only Asian kid surrounded by whites (or in my case, blacks and hispanics in the Bronx during the 80s), being uncomfortable in one’s skin, and other depressing topics. At one point in the past, the world was a simpler place but somewhere along the way it got replaced by a world of chasing money and jobs with no inherent meaning. We no longer have any sense of who we are as a people but that’s not just an Asian-American problem but an ongoing issue of a people who live in a land of isolating surburbs, where’s its damn near impossible to go shopping for groceries without having to get into a car, a landscape dominated by bland, uninspiring shopping malls, a society that no longer functions for the good of a robust middle class but has been subverted by corporate interests and bought politicians. We now search for “community” online, like in a comments section of a blog.
Chr:
“And those Asian employees at Goldman or Morgan are just work drones. You know they are happy to see us regulated into that kind of position.”
Now wait just a darn second! I was posing the questions of Goldman and Morgan just as examples, but take a look at that C-100 link. Look at Ted Wang, who is Co-Head of U.S. Delta Trading & Co-Chief Operating Officer of Global Equities at Goldman Sachs. Does that sound like a drone to you? To me, that sounds like a dude whose got lots of important responsibilities.
And look at the partners at Jones Day and KPMG and McKinsey. These ain’t no drones; these are leaders! Why would you think otherwise? Their title should give yuou a good idea of what they do.
I completely disagree.
You don’t think Asian Ivy Leaguers are different from Asian non-Ivy’ers? And you don’t think Asian Ivy Leaguers are the same as non-Asian IvyLeaguers? I don’t think Asian Ivies are necessarily sharper than Asian non-Ivies–mostly because the bar is so high for an Asian person to get into an Ivy against affirmative action–but I think they’re just as arrogant. Keep in mind too that when you say “state schools,” a lot of Asian Americans go through the UC system, where the education is just as good as the Ivies.
I’ve never met an Asian Harvard or Yale grad who wasn’t really, really smart. I can’t say the same of all schools.
So yeah, continuing the trend: I completely disagree.
Chr:
“This goes back to my take that most Asians don’t benefit from the Ivy League Instititions when it comes to attaining power and influence in America.”
Sorry to harp on this, but what about that C-100 link! Think about the guy who invented YouTube, or Tony Hsieh, or any of those guys in C-100. Most of them went to very good schools. I don’t think ANY of them went to trade school.
Kobu,
I hear you, and I don’t know if I’d neccessarily disagree with what you said.
That said, have you read this book?
http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/09/banana-boys-heung-jiu-jei-by-terry-woo-review/
I don’t know if there has to be long systemic persecution in order to write a good narrative. There just has to be an understanding of oneself and common human condition.
I might add that there are plenty of non-Ivy’ers that are plenty brilliant, and there are Ivy’ers who are dumbasses. But we’re talking about averages here.
Ha! I agree there isn’t anything remarkable about Asian Americans, other than the fact that they study and work hard to attain material wealth. Despite their successes as being copy cats of Whites, there is much to be seen of Asians actually forming their own corporate companies, where they rival what has already been established. Then it will be the day when all complaints about discrimination and promotion will cease, and yellow peril and hostile takeover will begin. I won’t be betting on it tho!
“Unlike Jews or Blacks, Asian-Americans have not experienced sustained, systematic persecution except for a few events in history that no one cares about except irrelevant “social activist” types. The dominant story of Asian-Americans has been that
of “model minority” which is really a story of assimilating to the system as mindlessly as possible for materialistic success. Our parents slaved long hours working in the grocery or dry-cleaning store so that we can go to fancy universities and emerge over-educated but not necessarily better people, with a mountain of student debt, so that we can be compliant peons for Corporate America. That’s our story, for the most part”.
Did you know that the Jews were able to render the old Anglo establishment obsolete by forming their own firms and competing with them? Goldman Sachs is one of them, and there are many others.
Can Asians hire their own kind and see each other eye to eye, or is it the same tire old complaint about not being promoted to upper management, and working for Asians is bad?
“Now wait just a darn second! I was posing the questions of Goldman and Morgan just as examples, but take a look at that C-100 link. Look at Ted Wang, who is Co-Head of U.S. Delta Trading & Co-Chief Operating Officer of Global Equities at Goldman Sachs. Does that sound like a drone to you? To me, that sounds like a dude whose got lots of important responsibilities”.
Again, most Asians only care about earning a good living. Why is that trade school is a bad choice? How about no school after HS? I know of an Asian dude who was promoted to Lieutenant in the NYPD. He rakes in 150K+ in salary. His parents are quite happy that he earns that kind of money. And this what most Asians care about, earning a good living. Again, I don’t see the “intelligence” factor which separates the Ivy Asians and non Ivy Asians. Most Asians I know are intelligent whether they went to Harvard or not.
When I go to Asian gatherings, it’s always the same lines? What do you do? Do you make good money? The second question is more important by the way.
This goes back to the Ivy League Mantra. Most Asians do not benefit from the Ivies, where they get to network with other elitist snobs and find opportunities of all sorts. They just study in order to land a good paying job at the end.
Not to bash the Youtube guy, but I don’t think he invented it. He and his partners were all co-inventors. Regarding Tony Hsieh, I don’t know much about him, other than the fact that he sold sneakers, has poor verbal skills, and cares only about hiring the right people for his business, instead of inspiring others.
“Sorry to harp on this, but what about that C-100 link! Think about the guy who invented YouTube, or Tony Hsieh, or any of those guys in C-100. Most of them went to very good schools. I don’t think ANY of them went to trade school”.
Chr:
Now you see, THIS is the central issue. The Youtube guy–as YOU mention–is a “co-inventor,” but for whatever reason, you “don’t think he invented it.” Tony Hsieh is lauded in the media for his great ability to create a culture AND his ability to inspire others (you can check out any review of his book and most of what the media says about him), but you focus on his speaking abilities and believe that he doesn’t inspire others.
I think you simply have a different set of standards for Asian people and White people. And that’s not necessarily a unique fault–I think it’s true in almost all of us. But it does reflect a different standard of judgment.
Most Asian families stress education, so many Asian kids do well in school. Asian kids have to pass the exact same tests to get into college, and they have to outscore their non-Asian counterparts in order to get past the gate–it’s called “affirmative action.”
Dude, how is this any different from what White people do? You’re telling me that White people go to parties and don’t ask what other people do??? You’re telling me that they don’t evaluate people on money (I’ve never actually heard anyone ask another person’s salary at a party), and that they don’t go to college to network, and to find opportunities, and to land good paying jobs? Is this kind of behavior somehow unique to Asians?
Keep in mind, that I’m not against trade schools. I think they’re great. I think they’d be a better fit for many people.
But I don’t think that four year colleges are bad either. I’ve yet to see anything that indicates that they are poor choices for some people, even those IT boys who may not have been hired otherwise.
I still owe you a front page article on HJC’s thoughts on education.
“Raquel, You said: Just a light-hearted aside, what about quitting university to become a highly paid PUA Guru, or a PUA internet stealth marketer? How would that compare to plumbing or garbage collection?
Why not? I’m all for it. You will save your parents’ hard earned dollars on a future that may not guarantee you anything, but maybe a piece of paper, a life of servitude, and discrimination from the powers to be. At least you get to develop interpersonal skills by being a PUA, either for the better or the worse, something that an Ivy League education will never teach you. I suppose there’s a bright side to everything!”
Hmm, if you mean interpersonal skills in PUA such as how to match suit jackets with the proper pants, or a proper haircut to get, or how to have a personality, those are truly invaluable lessons.
However since becoming a PUA guru leads to becoming a homeless bum that nobody loves many years down the road, why waste that amount of time and money at all?
So right now it is useless to go to university because all Asians will never amount to anything, and becoming a PUA will lead to homelessness.
How about recommending that Asians who want to become PUA gurus save time and money by committing suicide immediately? If I follow your logic correctly, ROFL.
Raguel,
You know there are many options in life when it comes to making a living. No one will tell you which is better, you have to figure it out for yourself. I’m just advocating that Ivy Leagues don’t empower Asians, and colleges can be a waste of time, since Asians usually focus on HARD SKILLS, and care only about INCOME LEVELS.
I know of an Asian woman who walks dogs for a living. She makes a good living out of it too. Can you say she is a loser, because she’s not earning her money in a more conventional way, you know the routine don’t you?
Bryon, They did an online dating survey and they asked both high earning Asian guys and White guys about their hobbies. Guess what the Asians guys said about their hobbies and how it differs from those of the White dudes? The Asians rated their most interesting hobbies as technology, stock market and financial investments, pretty much related to their jobs I assume. The White guys basically said they love to do things such as skiing, flying helicopters and fishing.
Don’t think I’m against the Humanities. I studied the Byzantine Empire and Islam so I’m in favor of it. But it’s something most of us are not suited for, mainly because of economical and political reasons, two very important factors that contribute to the success of a racial/ethnic group in this country. It’s quite disheartening to know that the Directors of the East Asian Studies Department of most universities is a Caucasian. Instead of asking us to major in a Humanities subject, you should advocate Asians reading books about history, literature and take it from there.
“Dude, how is this any different from what White people do? You’re telling me that White people go to parties and don’t ask what other people do??? You’re telling me that they don’t evaluate people on money (I’ve never actually heard anyone ask another person’s salary at a party), and that they don’t go to college to network, and to find opportunities, and to land good paying jobs? Is this kind of behavior somehow unique to Asians?”
I think one key element of studying humanities is that Asians need to take more risks to be ‘great’ and be less satisfied with ‘comfortable living’
I like the title of B and his ex-buddy’s blog ‘ uniting the asian conscience’. as pretentious as it may sound, i think thats what we are trying to do. but maybe even ‘developing’ rather than just ‘uniting’.
And imo development can only be achieved by setting high artistic risks for ourselves and supporting each other’s processes. Encouragement through constructive criticism, not just criticism in terms of representing ‘asians’. but basically, setting higher personal standards.
The current asian mindset is incorrect that we love to tear each other down and only compare ourselves to others. but thats more the mindset for old school asians. so it should be inversed. we love to support each other and only compare ourselves to ourselves.
That way, when the support comes, itll probably be worth it because we are working at taking risks, so the work we produce will be worth supporting and not because its ‘asian’
This kind of improvement can only come from self-love and risk taking. Regarding the support, the extra effort we need to make is basically breaching our ‘family mindset’.
Asians are typically family based and never go beyond the family mindset , which is basically looking out for our own and seeing other asians as strangers. This is a huge social wall that needs to broken into as many bits as possible, by taking risks into getting to know people( other asians) on a real level rather than a superficial level, with real genuine care and interest.
We simply dont care to know each other any better in reality because of
1. different asianness ( your chinese and im japanese , stay away)
2. cool factor ( i want to know you) or uncool ( stay away from me)
3. family group, which leads to cliques in friends ( who are those guys? ew)
4. superficial conversation and saving face- money talk and petty competition ( im a bigger earning asian than you)
as Chr says, because we focus on ‘ a good living and closeminded’ rather than ‘being great’ the above factors tend to worsen the situation. now if you focus on ‘being great and openminded’ and taking more risks you can review those points again:
1. different asianness -eg thats cool, i always wanted to know what that country is like – japanese and chinese have x elements in common
2.cool factor ( you dont care what people think – thats cool)
3. family group is extended to social group – ( we are all asian, )
4. real care-to-listen talk that doesnt care about saving face ( despite my preset asian competitive mindset ill risk getting to know you )
asians typically dont care to open up to each other, but if we focus on risktaking and high personal standards, the asian consciousness will develop tenfold. thats what i honestly believe. we need to take more risks amongst each other and with our decisionmaking- more trust in intangible situations, appearing out of control, confidence to be wrong, etc.
Huge risk-taking asians+focusing on whats real= huge development of the asian consciousness.
People accuse asians of copying whites or blacks etc. if we just focus on being better at what we do and risk taking….we produce genuine results that are worth supporting amongst ourselves, without the need for any non-asians.( and if we do get any support thats more a bonus, than anything)
btw risk= also can mean risk being hated. not everything in life thats worth fighting for comes neatly packaged and presented for your instant consumer-friendly pleasure. but thats also often the price of progress.
The biggest risk asians can have for speaking out due to the confucian mindset of not wanting to be ‘that nail that gets hammered down for standing out’ is we may not get support from other asians, but historically most risk takers/pioneers never have any support anyway and only supported themselves.
so if we look at developing the asian consciousness as an art, then as artists we shouldnt be afraid of taking risks without any support from other asians.
i dont think we can be taught to ‘love one anothers asianness’ but writing a big list of asian pride achievements is enough to get your personal confidence level going. and also getting to know and respect other asian achievements too outside your own specific asian roots helps in a massive way too, in our honest support for each other.
Troll,
I like your post. I couldn’t say it better.
Yes, but also to have a passion for something that goes beyond monetary rewards.
It’s a BIG SHAME that there are very few Asian Americans who are experts of a culture/tradition they or their ancestors are/were part of. Just about every Director of any East Asian Studies Department of a university or college is a White person. I see some of them majoring in Asian American studies and in my opinion, it’s like studying avant garde, and forgetting the noble traditions that were once part of us.
“I think one key element of studying humanities is that Asians need to take more risks to be ‘great’ and be less satisfied with ‘comfortable living’”
Chr:
I guess you see my point about White Ivy Leaguers and Asian Ivy Leaguers? If you meet them at a party, they’re exactly the same in terms of motivations and how they network. I think you judge them differently, which is too bad.
You’ll have to send me that survey. I know lots of high earning Asian guys who are into golf, skiing, fishing, etc. Maybe it depends on how you define “high earning.” At a certain level of income, just about every person of any race will begin to spend on different experiences and toys.
I just posted on education:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/09/education-is-oversold-but-we-also-need-more-education/
trolldetector:
Just one minor correction–it’s my buddy’s ex-blog, not my ex-buddy’s blog. He’s still my buddy. We still talk all the time.
Chr:
“Just about every Director of any East Asian Studies Department of a university or college is a White person. ”
Is that the fault of the teachers or the system?
Trolldetector, some level of care and foresight must be exercised when we critique our own cultural or social norms/phenomenons, lest we end up unwittingly stereotyping ourselves without taking into account how cultures and social mores can change organically.
The way I see it, self-stereotyping is just as bad as those imposed on us by others.
“Raguel,
You know there are many options in life when it comes to making a living. No one will tell you which is better, you have to figure it out for yourself. I’m just advocating that Ivy Leagues don’t empower Asians, and colleges can be a waste of time, since Asians usually focus on HARD SKILLS, and care only about INCOME LEVELS.
I know of an Asian woman who walks dogs for a living. She makes a good living out of it too. Can you say she is a loser, because she’s not earning her money in a more conventional way, you know the routine don’t you?”
OH I SEE! You were talking about EMPOWERMENT and SUCCESS IN LIFE, and not how to make life choices based on a hundred tales of woe and hopeless sad-sackery.
For a moment there, I was really confused. Thanks for clearing it up for me old chap. ^_^
That’s right kid. I’m in early 30s, you call this old, young punk?
Just to let know, there are some Ivy Beleaguers who’ve become PUAs. That tells you what an Ivy League education CANNOT DO!
“OH I SEE! You were talking about EMPOWERMENT and SUCCESS IN LIFE, and not how to make life choices based on a hundred tales of woe and hopeless sad-sackery.
For a moment there, I was really confused. Thanks for clearing it up for me old chap. ^_^”
Tell that that to the ladies of the AFCC, and see how far you’ll get what your foresight.
“Trolldetector, some level of care and foresight must be exercised when we critique our own cultural or social norms/phenomenons, lest we end up unwittingly stereotyping ourselves without taking into account how cultures and social mores can change organically.
The way I see it, self-stereotyping is just as bad as those imposed on us by others”.
Well, didn’t you said there are not enough Asians in the Humanities? Maybe this is the reason for it. Better yet, many Asian Americans would rather study an inferior subject like Asian American literature instead of Classical Chinese or Classical Japanese.
““Just about every Director of any East Asian Studies Department of a university or college is a White person. ”
Is that the fault of the teachers or the system?”
Thanks for the link. College is not only overrated for Asians, it really doesn’t empower them.
“I just posted on education:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/09/education-is-oversold-but-we-also-need-more-education/“
We all know there is a more diversity of interests amongst Whites, no? Everyone knows that geekdom is very prevalent in our community.
“I guess you see my point about White Ivy Leaguers and Asian Ivy Leaguers? If you meet them at a party, they’re exactly the same in terms of motivations and how they network. I think you judge them differently, which is too bad”.
Chr:
Let’s agree to disagree on this. I posted a link of at least 100 elite Chinese Americans with college educations who are leaders in their fields and were EMPOWERED through education. There are hundreds of thousands more who aren’t on this list. I don’t know why you ignore them or others like them, but we can agree to disagree.
No, absolutely not. I don’t know this, nor (and let’s be honest) do you.
How about being empowered by our own culture? I know of a Chinese guy who is a Lieutenant for the NYPD and he earns six digits without an Ivy League degree, let alone a college education.
Didn’t you agree that a college education is an overkill in todays job market?
I also know of a classmate from my Chinatown elementary school days who’s now in the ranks of the FDNY. I’m sure you know there are very few Asian firefighters out there. The funny thing was that he was criticized harshly by our 6th grade teacher who happened to be Jewish when he told him he wanted to become a firefighter. He said it’s not gonna get him anywhere in terms of money and respect. WTF?
“Let’s agree to disagree on this. I posted a link of at least 100 elite Chinese Americans with college educations who are leaders in their fields and were EMPOWERED through education. There are hundreds of thousands more who aren’t on this list. I don’t know why you ignore them or others like them, but we can agree to disagree”.
“I posted a link of at least 100 elite Chinese Americans with college educations who are leaders in their fields and were EMPOWERED through education. There are hundreds of thousands more who aren’t on this list. I don’t know why you ignore them or others like them…”
Rofl Byron, I think we certainly know why.
XD
@B. Sorry I was typing too fast, meant ex-blog.
@raguel , I dont think i was self-stereotyping. If youre refering to my comments on the ‘confucian mindset’ or ‘family vs society base’ or ‘not being the one that stands out incase he gets knocked down’ , those are universal asian elements. Modern asians may disagree with that, but thats good, because that means asian consciousness is progressing , and as someone said earlier constantly evolving.
I guess the main challenge is that for us to be all on the same page, just like Blacks or South Asians, or whites can see themselves. Once we have that, unity is possible.
I just think history is not something that asians enjoy talking about but thats another topic of discussion. Chinese have big ass-history but we are talking 1000s of years history and on the other extreme many modern western Chinese dont care too much about the immigrant history of railroad workers, because in some parts of the western worlds, those same slaves/workers tore up their records of any history because it was too plain embarrassing to be remembered as being introduced into a new country as someones ‘pet’.
However one part of asian history all have in common is that we are all at some point colonised /invaded ( or in China’s case parts of it ) by westerners/whites.
Funny how in the land of the free and pursuit of the almighty dollar and the wonderful rise of China and everyone and their wanting Chinese money to bail someone out or pay for their hollywood movie, thats one part that is easily forgotten .
^ I would like some Chinese money please.
LOL!!!
@King haha i think China has wasted most of it bailing out the US, but you can still ask for more, i guess.
This is a good reason why Asian American students should NOT embark on an inferior discipline such as Asian American Studies. Instead, they should be studying things like Chinese Philosophy, or Classical Japanese literature. Ask any average Asian American to name 3 Western philosophers, and they might provide you with the names. Ask him/her to name 3 from the East Asian traditions, and he/she will be speechless.
“Chinese have big ass-history but we are talking 1000s of years history and on the other extreme many modern western Chinese dont care too much about the immigrant history of railroad workers, because in some parts of the western worlds, those same slaves/workers tore up their records of any history because it was too plain embarrassing to be remembered as being introduced into a new country as someones ‘pet’”
I’m not discounting the achievements of those C100 members. I was able to browse through the website and check out their profiles. There isn’t anything remarkable or impressive about most of them. They are either riding the coattails of successful White folks, or achieving things that serve absolutely no benefit to society, nor do they empower Asians. Being successful in the restaurant and real estate business doesn’t make you a special elite powerhouse. They’re a dime in dozen across all ethnic and racial groups.
Speaking of, I’m surprised why this Chinese American female attorney is not on the member’s list. Well, she doesn’t she need to be, because of her originality and impressive, yet humble background! Coming to the United States in her teens and not speaking a word of English, she was able to become a top immigration lawyer with several firms across the nation, including NYC. She even had the opportunity to represent Obama’s aunt in immigration matters. Now she did get into a spectacle when she said that the Chinese are the smartest people, and she even went out of her way to disparage other Asian American groups, calling them useless when it comes empowerment. After all, most lawyers have a tendency to be brash, so we should forgive her for it.
http://www.asianamerican.net/bios/Wong-Margaret.html
http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/12/margaret_wong_developed_privat.html
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1233135028159180.xml&coll=2
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/04/scholarship_fund_for_immigrant.html
http://www.lec.edu/news_legacy.php?id=91
Her firm: http://www.imwong.com/
“I posted a link of at least 100 elite Chinese Americans with college educations who are leaders in their fields and were EMPOWERED through education. There are hundreds of thousands more who aren’t on this list. I don’t know why you ignore them or others like them…”
Rofl Byron, I think we certainly know why.
XD”
Chr:
Right.
I’ll say this again: you have a different set of standards in judging White people and Asian people. An Asian person would have to be able to bend steel and have X-Ray vision before you saw him as not being a dime a dozen.
That’s a value judgment. It’s your value judgment which you’re absolutely entitled to have, but it’s not a universal value judgment.
“I’ll say this again: you have a different set of standards in judging White people and Asian people. An Asian person would have to be able to bend steel and have X-Ray vision before you saw him as not being a dime a dozen”.
Byron, Aren’t we Asian Americans as a group aspiring to be supermen anyway? You like to compare us to the Jews. You go down the list with the Jews, and there are too many movers and shakers for us to take notice of them. And the Jews like us, are only 2% of the US population.
I found another Asian guy who is a professor of some funky subject. Vietnamese American who is a professor of Islamic Studies.
http://www.fairfield.edu/academic/profile.html?id=583
In reference to this thread title, I havent read the whole of it this thread and not sure if its been mentioned, but I think there may be more of a Jewish/Cantonese Chinese connection than a general Jewish Chinese connection. I say this because of the money-making nature and general thriftiness and entrepreneurial outlook of Southern Chinese.
Also, kind of related, when the Dutch-jews that came to Shanghai, I think Grace Lee, adopted daughter of Ho Kom Tong Bruce Lee’s mom is half Dutch Jew, as opposed to German as is popularly known. Like I said i could be wrong as it was just some quick google search but if it were true that would make Bruce Lee quarter Dutch Jewish.
Also Stanley Ho and Bruce Lee are related. Stanley Ho is arguably one of the richest men in the world. Bruce Lee was arguably one of the most inspirational
In this day and age a human problem as well as an asian problem is focusing on the money and sacrificing the art to chase the money, rather than focusing on the art and sacrificing the money. Yes we all need to live, and eat and get by. But there is a serious gap of inspiration right now. Because as we know money controls what gets seen and as a result , there is a lack of inspiration . You can see that everywhere. Inspiration is what us humans now seem to need more of more than anything else, even money, yet we do little in comparison to our efforts to make money to produce /encourage enough of it.
“Also Stanley Ho and Bruce Lee are related. Stanley Ho is arguably one of the richest men in the world. Bruce Lee was arguably one of the most inspirational”
Both have Jewish ancestry. I believe it!
But you got it wrong with the Jews. Many Jews today are in academia. In fact, they are overrepresented in that field. You don’t become rich being an academic/education person.
Jews similar to Cantonese. Nah, not at all. More similar to Hakka or Teochiu Chinese is more like it. Cantonese are not as education oriented compared to the other 2 groups of Southern Chinese. Seems like Northern Chinese are the most focused on education tho. Your comparision is wrong, and so is Byron’s.
Lol, do you have some kind of problem with Jews or Cantonese or something?
I find many positive qualities coming from the Jews whom I’ve met, and worked with. As a group, they have tried to uplift other minorities, a quality typically not found in other White Ethnics. I’ve come across some who don’t like Asians, but they’re a few here and there.
Now to the surly Cantonese, we’re definately talking about murky waters when it comes to them. I’m 25% Canto, so I know what’s the mystery behind them. I find Cantonese are more similar to the obnoxious Italians than the Jews. Just mentioning corruption and organized crime, and now we’re talking Big Brother and Godfather. Not to mention how cheap and low class both of these groups are, yet the Jews take all the blame for being cheap. LOL…
Did you, Raguel or some other dude poster ranted here how the Cantonese community was oppressive towards him and so he turned to PUA?
You’ll have to ask said person in question himself to get an answer, I’m afraid.
Thank you for your clarification and for telling us what you think about Jews, Cantonese and Italians. It explains many things…
“Thank you for your clarification and for telling us what you think about Jews, Cantonese and Italians. It explains many things…”
It only explains this – Jews very successful, Cantonese so-so, Italians, not!
Chr,
You missed the salient part of Raguel’s comment. I’ll put it in bold: “Thank you for your clarification and for telling us what you think about Jews, Cantonese and Italians.”
You see what you choose to see.
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