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We’ve been having a long discussion on Asian American masculinity on those other two blog posts (1 and 2). We originally began talking about masculinity in order to understand emasculation and how it relates to interracial dating, but in the course of the discussion, we realized that masculinity and manliness are not the same thing. Masculinity is a frame of mind characterized by fast aggressive action, a yang frame of mind. It’s a self-contained description. Manliness, on the other hand, combines yin and yang, feminine and masculine, to embody what society thinks a man should be. Becoming a man is a rite of passage where the values depend entirely on the culture in which one lives.
When we talk about emasculation, we could be talking about either masculinity or manliness, but we’re usually talking about manliness. We’re usually talking about how Asian men are not treated as men, or we’re talking about how Asian men are not acting like men. Emasculation means to strip a man of manliness. Our question as Asian American men is how to become men.
I got my first lesson on how to be a man from my grandmother. When I was 10 or 11 years old, I went to a Bar Mitzvah, where a Jewish American family friend celebrated his becoming a man (We’ll call him Jon–not because I’m trying to conceal his identity, but because I don’t remember his name!). It was the first Bar Mitzvah I had ever attended, and I was amazed by the expense and preparation behind this young man’s celebration. There were lots of young people at the party, but there were only two Asian people in the whole place–me and a young Chinese girl who was one of Jon’s classmates. She was at my table. I couldn’t take my eyes off of her.
This girl, Helen (again, I don’t remember her name either, so I’ll just call her Helen) was cute, stylish, intelligent, and…really cute…and did I mention she was really cute? I was a boring child, but I must have spoken to her because I remember her smiling. When it was time to dance, she asked me if I wanted to dance with her, and so we did. I remember her laughing too, so I’m hoping that means I cracked some kind of funny joke or something.
Anyway, my grandmother later asked me about the Bar Mitzvah, and I told her how they recited prayers, how everyone kissed a big gold goblet that they passed around the synagogue, and how they had music, like a wedding. I told her about dancing with the Chinese girl, and she said, “Oh, you asked her to dance with you?” I said, “Uh, no. She asked.”
My grandmother said, “You are the man. You are supposed to ask.”
My grandmother, of course, had grown up during the Great Depression and World War II back when gender roles were much more fixed. She was the wife of an engineer in the Merchant Marine, a man who had fought in three wars. Even back in the fourth or fifth grade, I learned that men and women were supposed to be equal. I thought that maybe the idea of men having to ask was old and antiquated advice from the pre-feminist years, but I didn’t say anything because when my grandmother talks, I listen. I assumed she was simply from another generation and didn’t know about feminism and equal rights and all that other stuff.
But years later, having lived through three and a half decades, I see that my grandmother was right. Regardless of whether we believe men and women are equal, and regardless of how the gender lines break down in order to allow women to succeed in traditionally male jobs, society has certain expectations of men and our roles. Initiating contact with the opposite sex is one of our responsibilities. Finding a career and making it work is another. Exposing oneself to danger when duty calls in another. A man must “act like a man.”
Is this a societal thing or a natural thing? Well, it might be natural, but it’s definitely societal. Like it or not, society puts an expectation on men to be men according to society’s definition of men. If we don’t measure up to that standard, society deems us “unmanly.”
So what is American manliness? Here are a few blog posts:
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2008/05/how-to-be-a-man/
http://www.esquire.com/features/what-is-a-man-0509
I agree with both blog posts. Tom Chiarella says that real men are good at their jobs–not their careers or hobbies, but their jobs. Steve Pavlina says that real men honor the masculinity of other men–you don’t jump in to help a man lifting a heavy weight at the gym because you respect that he’s lifting that weight as part of his “growth experience.” I also like Pavlina’s remark that relationships come second. People tend to respect the manliness of those who sacrifice everything, including family and loved ones, for a cause, a job, or a vision. I once read that Coretta Scott King once got angry at Martin Luther King for spending all his money on promoting equal rights rather than saving money for his kids’ college tuition. People respected Martin for putting all his energy into his cause.
Now what about Asian Americans and how we fit in? Here’s a post about Asian manliness that I found here:
http://www.slate.com/id/2200544/entry/2200547
For a cultural perspective, Tim Wu writes:
Since we’re talking about cowboys, I can’t close this entry without tackling a somewhat sensitive topic: Asian manhood. There is a widely held stereotype that, samurais and Bruce Lee aside, East Asian men are not particularly masculine. I hate to admit it, but as with many stereotypes, there’s some truth to this. Take my native Taiwan: Good food? Yes. Friendly? Yes. Macho? Not at all. Many Taiwanese men consider it perfectly normal to fill their cars with stuffed animals. More broadly, male pop stars across East Asia have a disturbing tendency to look exactly like the teenage girls who are their biggest fans.
Please don’t get angry about this. It’s true that Western popular culture tends to emasculate Asian men. I am also aware that cultural ideals of manhood vary, and that Taiwanese men are more likely to express their masculinity in other ways, like collecting tea pots or chewing on betel nuts. But rough and tough they aren’t. And some of this gives Asian men outside Asia something of a complex.
The antidote to any idea that this might be a racial, as opposed to cultural, trait is a trip to Mongolia. Mongolian men in the countryside spend their time riding horses, killing animals, and breaking firewood. They tend to hold their face in a fixed grimace. At times, it is like a country of Daniel Craig impersonators. Along with parts of Latin America, it’s probably the most macho place I’ve ever been. And so, my Asian brothers, if you ever want to know what the extremes of Eastern manhood look like, forget about Jet Li or even Bruce Lee. It’s Mongolia where Asia gets tough.
I’ve not spent enough time in Asia to talk about what makes a manly Asian man. Asian men in the Western world will be judged by White Western standards of manliness, a manliness that perhaps (and I use the word “perhaps” because I really don’t know) tends to be more masculine, except maybe when compared with cultures like Mongolia. The masculine features of manliness are even stronger in Latin American and African American cultures. We see this judgment of manliness in interracial relationships, where Asian women often won’t date Asian men because of a lack of perceived manliness, and in the workplace, where people don’t perceive Asian Americans as great leaders.
The choice for the Asian American activist is straight forward. We can choose to redefine American masculinity, or we can choose to assimilate to it. My guess is that most Asian Americans would prefer a little of both–to become men on our own terms while trying to achieve a Western ideal at the same time.
So how do we do that?
1. I think we need to raise our boys to become men. We need to raise them with ideals, structure, and community, and we need to teach them to strive for those ideals and to do what is best for community.
2. We need to build up yang power. Teach them to state their positions straight out, to be “brave, truthful, and good” as Michael Gurian says.
3. We need to build up yin power. We need to teach them to empathize, to feel, and to be in touch with their emotions as men.
4. We need to teach them to be a part of their smaller Asian community AND their larger community as a whole. This means that more Asian men need active leadership roles in the existing structures and institutions.
5. We need to embrace competition and have greater trust that the system can do the right thing.
What do you think? Sound off like a WOWO!
Related posts:
But here is an...
Keep in mind that my points/prescriptions above have nothing to do with women, or women’s approval, or family approval, etc. I don’t know if this conflicts with the stereotype of Asians as valuing family (it’s not true among all Asian people anyway), but in either case, it doesn’t matter. I don’t think being attractive to women has anything to do with being a man, according to at least this culture’s conception of manliness.
Tim Wu shits on his own race and culture in order to entertain ignorant Americans.
If I met him I may have to snap his girly Taiwanese arm.
Ok, I realise that I don’t really want to snap his twig arm and hear all that screaming and crying, it makes me feel disturbed.
I see Hubby as a paragon of manliness and masculinity, so my definitions are informed by my understanding and observations of him.
He doesn’t talk much, so when he does, it counts and everybody listens, including me. He’s profoundly respectful toward women, from his mother to me, but at bottom would never let a woman influence his final decisions. He takes his responsibilities very seriously, which means he works damn hard at his job and every financial choice he makes is based on what would be good for the family. Yes, he is the head of our household (of 2, lol) and I do yield to him on many counts, not because he is male or because he orders it, but because I trust him based on a proven track record of trustworthiness.
No, he doesn’t make more than I do or have a better job than me, isn’t more successful than me, and certainly has not attained as high an education; nor is he from a better family or class background. These factors do not sway a halfway intelligent woman in determining whether a man is worthy of leading her, which is why I was not too taken by the comments those two Korean American women had to offer in the previously posted videos about needing a man to “do better” than her. It didn’t sound to me like they were looking for a leader or a challenge; they’re looking for a straight up sugardaddy. That’s a very different discussion from manliness and masculinity.
Hubby’s more masculine than most non-Asian, or more specifically white men that I know because, for one, he isn’t selfish. That should be part of the definition of becoming a man: accepting one’s obligations not just to family, but to society and country as well. He doesn’t live for himself, he lives for us. He’s reverent of the law and never tries to cheat the system for an extra nickel or dime. And if thrust in war, he would lay down his life for his country. That’s a man, Asian, Asian American, or otherwise.
I concur with the above post: masculinity and manliness has nothing to do with how attractive you are to women. There’s a term in Chinese, I forget what it is, but more or less translates to “flower prince.” It refers to a guy who’s enamored of women and who women are enamored of, and he spends his entire day chasing after women or with women. I’m sure such a guy is highly attractive to women, but few cultures, east or west, would consider a “flower prince” masculine or manly. And from what I’ve heard about PUA so far, it sounds like PUA is nurturing an army of flower princes, not men.
Many Taiwanese men consider it perfectly normal to fill their cars with stuffed animals. More broadly, male pop stars across East Asia have a disturbing tendency to look exactly like the teenage girls who are their biggest fans.
Guys from Asia tend to have a poor sense of gaydar from an American perspective. Shit like this happens in Korea too. I would add sporting man-purses, carrying a girl’s purse for her, wearing effeminately styled clothing, and having a dangling thingy on your cellphone. Am I missing anything?
I have a theory that in relatively prosperous, advanced societies, where life is easy and soft, young males appropriate young female behavior or modes of thought in order to ingratiate themselves to females, whether its Asia or the West. These just happen to be the Asian manifestation of a universal phenomenon. The Asian versions tend to be superficial. In Germany, guys are trained by their gf’s to sit on the toilet, instead of standing, when they urinate. In the US, its more conceptual. Males appropriate, internalize, and regurgitate feminist propaganda. The universities are essentially feminist and liberal indoctrination camps and the fact that Asian-Americans are too well represented in higher education doesn’t bode well in this regard.
I still get the sense that this view of manliness is completely biased by the influence media has had on your notion of manliness. I honestly don’t think we need to define manliness or try and set forth some parameters of measurement. By setting up parameters you are doing exactly the same thing that others do when they define Asian men as not being manly. Why continue the cycle of exclusion? Shouldn’t the notion of manliness be all encompassing? Shouldn’t the definition of Asian Man include ALL Asian men?
LOL! Tz, the key thing about flower princes is that women love them automatically and by instinct, something that PUAs try very hard to do but can’t replicate. XD
Jaehwan, at first I was very worried you were going to write a manual, lol. I think that self-sacrifice is highly over-rated and is a chump’s job, however I do agree that men should be taught how to become influential stakeholders in whatever societies and communities they find themselves in.
I think these five concepts you outlined are a good conceptual guide. If we bear these things in mind we will be grooming future leaders, and everything else will flow from there.
Nice writing, I would have said so earlier but I wanted to snap Tim Wu’s twig arm, lol.
P.S: The “feminine Asia” thing is over-played because it’s probably been subconsciously adopted by weak minded journalists and men who otherwise blame their own society for their own shortcomings and who need to pander to something. We’ve always had men who’ve had to do the heavy lifting and dirty work, sometimes psychologically and emotionally unhealthy work and remain stoic, sadly because of class rivalry there is an aversion to giving them a bigger profile. Also, with the increasing feminisation of men throughout the globe there has been an organic counter-reaction from men itself whereby many start to redefine masculinity as a discrete concept and separate from feminine encroachment, according to their own terms. Men’s magazines (horseshit), fitness clubs, etc. Individual men are becoming more and more active in embracing what it means to be masculine entirely on their own volition. The days of getting in touch with your “female side” is over because we are finally able to acknowledge that emotions are not the unique domain of the female.
@byran
Lol, I guess I’m pretty much a prime example of one of the guys that that Tim guy is describing. So am I meant to feel less masculine than PUAs or white guys.
Girls (in general) likes to decorate/leave their fingerprints, and if you have a car, that’s the first thing they like to invade. And Rakku kuma is absolutely adorable!
@kobu
I guess I will be high on your gaydar
@papa
Can’t agree more. If you have stuff between your legs, you’re a man. It’s only the decades of white men’s lies that put us in a position to even question what is deemed to be masculine.
If you think you’re masculine, that’s masculine enough.
I for one don’t believe that Asian men in Asia are less masculine. Asian Americans who believe this hog washed are pretty much conditioned by the Western media. For every one guy who sport a man purse, there are hundreds who smoke like a chimney, working hard construction jobs.
The stars in Asia are more geared towards women, a lot of men are not even interested in Asian pop culture. There is nothing in Asian pop culture that caters to the men.
TZ,
Great background on that; thanks for sharing. I agree that that obligations ought to be a part of manliness. I remember once talking to my other grandfather about his time fighting for the U.S. Army in Korea. He said, “When your country asks you to serve, you serve.”
Haha! Thanks for teaching me a new term. I asked Mrs. WOWO, and she says it’s 花花公子 (hua hua gong zi). I googled it, and the google translation is “Playboy.” LOL too funny! The literal translation is “flower flower son.” In another words, a boy, not a man.
If you’re in the mood for some bad sounding Canto pop, Jacky Cheung actually has a song called “花花公子.”
Raguel,
Thanks! Glad you liked it.
P2H,
I totally see what you’re saying. I guess my reason for defining it is that I really do believe that men need to find a place in society, and that it isn’t a bad thing for people to have ideals–such as the manly ideal–to aspire to. If you’re running a company, for example, you would probably want a decisive leader, as opposed to a dreamer. Both types are good for society, but if we’re talking about obligation, for example, decisive types tend to be better at the helm. And I think most women–though obviously not all women–like manly man. Manly, of course, is culture-specific.
In terms of emasculation, I think it’s good to understand what people are saying when they say they view us as less manly. We don’t have to necessarily be the most manly of the manly if it doesn’t fit our personality–one typically doesn’t associate starving artists with manliness, while one does assign it to war generals–but at least we know what we’re talking about.
Besides, we’re all in it together anyway, and maybe that’s what’s missing from Asian American culture–the collaboration. Asian American writers should be singing the praises of Asian American manly men, and Asian American manly men should be fighting and putting up resrouces for the Asian American writer’s place in society.
John:
That’s very true for the mainstream stuff. I think there’s some more alternative stuff that’s more “manly.” I once told a Japanese friend about the Japanese pop bands I liked. He said I should be listening to other more masculine stuff. Like エレファントカシマシ:
Girls (in general) likes to decorate/leave their fingerprints, and if you have a car, that’s the first thing they like to invade.
Girls do that to a boy to let other girls know that this boy is taken. I believe that’s how the cellphone dangling thingy first got started. Some girl put that thing on her boy’s cellphone for that reason and it became a wide trend. Before that, it was simply a cellphone decoration item.
It’s a kind of a public emasculation. In Korea, some couples wear matching running suits. It’s pretty gay. It’s a way of letting everyone know “we’re official”. If you are a guy and you go along with it, you’re letting the world know “look at me…I’m totally whipped.”
Now, boys…being a bit slower and obtuse to the subtle, indirect ways of girls, have no idea what’s going on. Some of them think, “hey, this is what girls like, and its popular, so I’m gonna do it to myself!”
I knew a sleazy guy once who had like ten of those things on his cellphone. For him, it may have been a type of “trophy” and having a whole bunch of them is peacocking. From a Game perspective, its retard. Because, for girls, rather than it being a trophy, it is a romantic symbol of being officially a couple. So him having ten of those things on display is like a man looking to pick up chicks wearing wedding bands on all on his fingers.
Like it or not, society puts an expectation on men to be men according to society’s definition of men. If we don’t measure up to that standard, society deems us “unmanly.”
King, have you anything to say about this based upon your own experience and insider’s knowledge of the African-American community?
Fro those who keep saying it’s the media’s fault!, let me ask you this:
where did the media get its notion of masculinity from?
O for Christ’s sake, stop whining about “White Western standards of masculinity” and what its doing to you.
Clint Eastwood is a quintessential example of what you might call “White Western masculinity”. However, his movies, particularly the spaghetti westerns of the 60s, were heavily influenced by Akira Kurosawa. “A Fist Full of Dollars” is a pirated version of “Yojimbo”. Clint Eastwood himself is a white knock-off of Toshiro Mifune, down to the scowling facial expression. The Clint Eastwood interpretation of masculinity, and whatever impact it had on American masculinity in general, ultimately had its root in the Code of Bushido.
What I am trying to say?
If you’re too busy caught up with “White vs Asian masculinity”, you’re actually focusing on the superficial cultural dressings, not the essence of masculinity, which is really universal and ultimately based on evolutionary hard-wiring. A Celtic warrior wearing a kilt and the Samurai with his katana are really the same creature, governed by this thing called “masculinity”. They would instantly recognize the other and know what they were about, sharing similar codes of honor and such, despite the fact that each one is a product of separate, far-removed cultures.
Yo…where da intellectuals be at up in here???
Kobukson,
I’ve read on some world history books that the one thing Japan has in common with most western countries is how they elevate the warrior to a place of honor. I have to check again, but it was asserted that other cultures, such as Chinese culture, tended to elevate scholars. Merchants and warriors were supposedly seen as kind of a necessary evil.
I’m talking out of imperfect recollection here, though, and the books were usually about the west (such as “The Rise Of The West”), so they need to be taken with a grain of salt given the bias.
Another interesting thing was the assertion that “barbarians” (whether in the west, middle east or the east) tended to look down upon “civilized” people. Yet as soon as they conquered a “civilized” nation, they would get caught up in the amenities and pleasures of civilized life and would become “soft” themselves– losing their military edge and becoming what they depised before.
Kobu,
Read what I wrote in the OP. Masculinity isn’t based on culture; it’s simply a yang force. Manliness is. Please stop playing the “moving definition” game! Quit “negging” me (new def, not everyone else’s!).
See the “masculinity” post and read Notty’s words. Manliness is NOT universal. What is considered manly here may not be manly in Latin America, and what is manly in Latin America may not be manly here.
There is a difference, and I think it behooves you to think about it. If masculine is short, aggressive yang action, then talking about your “Korean meat” on a first date with a woman who isn’t ready to hear it may be masculine, as it ignores introspection in favor of action. But in this culture, where people expect “men” to conform to certain social norms and to observe obligations to a woman’s expectations of comfort and safety on a date, it may not be viewed as “manly.”
In short, I don’t think it’s always a bad thing to conform to certain norms. When I go to a sales meeting, I represent my company, so I wear a suit and tie, even if I’d rather be wearing a T-shirt with a beer in my hand.
King,
I’d also be interested in hearing your take on Kobu’s question.
I’ve read on some world history books that the one thing Japan has in common with most western countries is how they elevate the warrior to a place of honor. I have to check again, but it was asserted that other cultures, such as Chinese culture, tended to elevate scholars. Merchants and warriors were supposedly seen as kind of a necessary evil.
That’s because of Confucianism. China was unified in 221BC by the Qin Emperor Qin Shi Huang. After that, Confucianism increasingly took over. Japan unified much later during the 1500′s under Ieyasu Tokogawa. The Samurai were discredited during the 19th century Meiji Restoration because the Emperor wanted to modernize Japan and the Samurai were stubborn traditionalists. Germany unified late also in the 19th century.
Another interesting thing was the assertion that “barbarians” (whether in the west, middle east or the east) tended to look down upon “civilized” people. Yet as soon as they conquered a “civilized” nation, they would get caught up in the amenities and pleasures of civilized life and would become “soft” themselves– losing their military edge and becoming what they depised before.
That is correct. Both in the cases of the Roman Empire and the Manchu Dynasties in China.
The demands of civilized, ordered society conflict with the ability of the average individual male to express raw masculinity. In fact, much of what we call “civilization” is having a few alphas at the top with concentrated power setting the agenda and defining society’s rules. The needs of a strong, prosperous civilization necessarily softens males.
A less macro example of this is institutionalized, compulsory education. It is a place run mostly by women, that instills passivity, following of rules, forced undertaking of boring studies, and suppression of natural male instincts such as fighting and putting a hand up a girl’s skirt. Now take an average, normal boy and multiply that for 12 – 20 years. School is a machine that, in the case of males, turns boys into compliant beta cogs necessary for the undertaking of that great enterprise we call civilization. In the case of Asian-Americans, the dial on that machine is set to extreme.
Oh! Sorry, I somehow missed what Kobu asked above!
Byron,
I think your attempts to distinguish masculinity versus manliness is a bit too muddled and convoluted for my taste.
For the dear sake of clarity, I wish to strip away layers like “culture” or “social norms” and distill a first-order definition of masculinity.
Which is this
Ideal masculinity is the maximum expression of free will and exercise of power by the individual within the naturally ordained order and moral law set by God.
How would you describe the nature of the problem of emasculation? How much of it is external in which others giving off the feeling of emasculation and how much of it is due to an internalization that gives him a mindset of being emasculated?
Also as for Tim Wu who thinks that masculinity is about killing animals, taming horses, and keeping their face in a grimace, I’m sure the women of Mongolia would probably be looking for the same as tz: accepting one’s obligations not just to family, but to society and country. In that context it will mean having to kill animals and tame horses. If Mr Wu has a wife, I’m sure she would find it silly if he thought she’d be impressed by him killing animals and taming horses.
My argument would be that manliness has universality. We all have in general much the same anatomies and physiologies. There are differences in A&Ps of male and females. This really isn’t going to change from culture to culture. Also adults are the driving force to provide and protect the social groups. Now there will be different factors and past histories that help shape a culture, so this will lead to different expressions with respect to how a group thinks a man or woman ought to be. Now I guess you could stop and say that is all different, but I would back up to the point before this starts to differentiate. In this way, you can keep a universal in mind and then you can put it in context by differentiating culturally as much as you need to.
How would you describe the nature of the problem of emasculation? How much of it is external in which others giving off the feeling of emasculation and how much of it is due to an internalization that gives him a mindset of being emasculated?
I think fundamentally emasculation is an existential problem. It arises when the purpose or reason for the existence of a man is violated. If you are a slave, you are emasculated. But a slave can still disobey his master’s orders or lead a rebellion.
Which leads us to your “internal versus external” question. External forces that violates a man’s true existence is called ‘oppression’. Oppression is everywhere and constant. Yet, man can still choose whether he will allow this oppression to affect him. If he chooses to die rather than be a slave, then he is not emasculated. He will be remembered as a hero. If he chooses to remain a slave so that he can live, then he is less than a man and therefore, emasculated.
If you work a cubicle job that you hate and yet are constantly fearful of losing your job because of cost-cutting and lay-offs (ie working for The Man) you are also a slave. This is another kind of emasculation and it pretty much describes most of Corporate America right now. If you quit your job to start your own business and pursue want you want to do, then you are no longer emasculated.
Note that rejection of oppression is always a risk-taking action, which is a masculine trait.
Now, let’s narrow down some further and talk about the particular kind of emasculation that affects AMs. The media portrays AMs as sexually impotent males. The AM never gets the girl. Or AFs are paired with WMs, etc. The media is an external force that oppresses AM sexuality. Now before I go on, what came first: the chicken or the egg? The dominating view seems to be that media started it first. My personal opinion is that AMs were already behaving in this manner for the most part, media picked up on it, AMs see that, their confidence weakens, and so on. However, this is not amenable to those with fragile egos, which is the majority of AMs. Misplaced pride blocks progress. But regardless, whether media started it first or its our own damn fault is irrelevant to the more important question, which is, now what? Even if activists like Byron write a thousand letters to Hollywood studio executives and the media problem gets fixed tomorrow, it still doesn’t absolve AMs of the responsibility of not emasculating themselves in reality. The other reason why I don’t buy the media hypothesis is that it promotes WMs and yet plenty of WMs in reality have trouble also.
I believe the root causes of AM emasculation is dual:
1. it originated within the typical Asian-American upbringing, the Model Minority burden, certain mentalities unique to Asians in general, etc.
2. it gets reinforced by the media. When you internalize the stereotypes, believe me this is happening far more than you might suspect, you are like the slave to chooses to be a slave.
I think, from the African-America perspective, (as I’ve probably said at some time before) we deal with the same group definitions of masculinity, just applied in reverse.
Black guys are all *supposed* to be “super masculine,” as society (both Black & White) defines it, which means that Black guys are encouraged/expected to be more aggressive in almost every sense. Of course, every Black guy isn’t really like that, but the trend is that we *should* be. This causes it’s own problems with higher trends toward physicality and less emphasis on intellectuality within the community.
As a result, we’re often perceived to be strong and manly, but also dumb and poor. I’m not sure if that’s a better trade or not. However, I’ll admit it is easier to dispel ideas of your own lack of intelligence than it is to defeat the idea that you are not masculine enough.
Did I answer what I was asked?
Or did you mean strictly in regard to women?
Kobu,
You wrote:
God doesn’t exist. At least I don’t think he does. But even if he did, who would determine what his naturally ordained order is? The “naturally ordained order” is different in this country than, say, in Japan. A good example is in speaking. Being loud and vociferous here propels people to the top. The same in not necessarily true in Japan. There is no Japanese version of Sarah Palin.
Jman and Kobu:
Here’s an illustration on the difference between masculinity and manliness. During UFC 113, Josh Koscheck spent the better part of a three round fight laying on top of Paul Daley and whispering insults in his ear. Asked later about what he said, he wouldn’t divulge. An interviewer asked, “What? Were you saying things about his mother?” Koscheck said, “Worse.”
When the final bell rang, Daley walked up to Koschek, and it looked like they were going to shake, but then Daley sucker punched Koscheck in the face. Koscheck reeled back, laughed, and danced away, as referee Dan Miragliotta grabbed Daley and threw him against the fence. Immediately after the fight, Dana White banned Daley for life and ended his UFC career.
Now was the punch masculine? Yes. If someone says something about your mother, it makes masculine sense to pop him in face.
Was it manly? No, not in this country. For one thing, there’s the stupid factor–you and your team worked so hard to get to the UFC, so why blow it? Second, within this culture, it’s considered cheap to hit a man when his hands are down and the match is not on. In Brazil, on the other hand, it might not be seen as unmanly. In fact, some might argue that had this fight taken place in Brazil, Koscheck should’ve seen it coming after the kind of insults he used.
Masculinity is prized, but manliness combines yin and yang down to what matters on the cultural level.
Thanks, King. My question (or my interpretation of Kobu’s question) was actually more in regards to what black people expect of themselves in terms of manliness. How would you say that differs from what White men expect from White men?
Ahh… OK, I see.
Well, of course there is no universal, but as I said above, the Black stereotype puts pressure on many/most Black young men in several areas:
1) You are expected to be relatively easy with women (or at least sound like it). Whether women love you or not, you definitely cannot appear to be AFRAID to talk to them (punk) or to ask them out. Getting turned down is nothing—part of being a man.
2) You are expected to start playing sports as a kid and keep playing at least into your 30s. Many of your nicknames will come from sports experiences. You must embrace competition and smack talking. You must defeat other men and learn to take defeat and mockery at the hands of others. Sports is where you can get big recognition.
3) You are expected to learn how to fight and not back down from one. You will probably get into a fist fight with most of your best friends, at some point of your childhood. Even in your 20s, if someone steps up on you, you’re expected to man up.
Losing the fight is worse than winning, but it’s better than backing down. Get in your licks and your opponent won’t be so eager to fight you again, even if you ultimately lose.
That last one will land you in trouble eventually. Anyway, that’s simplified, but those are the things that stick out in my mind without getting into the subtleties.
I think Tim Wu’s idea of what is masculine/manly is extremely culturally conditioned.
His comment about Taiwanese male pop stars looking like their female fans is viewed through a very Western lens. East Asian men tend to be naturally younger-looking and less hairy than Caucasians, which puts East Asians at an automatic disadvantage – if you buy into that Western definition, of course.
Mongol men are no more manly than Taiwanese men; they just fit more closely to the Western definition of manliness.
As another example from Asia, let’s evaluate Sikh men from Punjab, according to Western masculine standards. They are hairy and have full beards – manly! They have a warrior-centric cultural history – manly! They will fuck you up if you make fun of their turbans – manly! Yet they also have to wear a bangle around their wrist, are mostly vegetarian, and love shaking up the dance floor far more than Punjabi women. And consider it acceptable to hold hands with other men. So clearly, they are not manly.
For the record, I myself am vegetarian, use moisturiser daily, am a fabulous cook, work in the very female-dominated community sector, and have never ever beat the shit out of anyone.
The UFC example does speak to me the universality of being a man. An action can have elements that complicate a simple positive or negative outlook. If an American would say that what he did was manly, it would probably for much the same reasons the Brazilian would say it was. If a Brazilian said it was unmanly it would probably be for much the same reasons Americans say.
You can throw situation after situation, but it would probably be far better to break down it down to principles. So here you may have a problem of honor vs keeping things within the rules. You can then maybe break down the importance of this within the US and Brazil allowing one to see how culture interacts.
@eurasian
It’s not often that I agree with you, but I do here.
Not sure if you agree, but I think in most successful relationships, the guts are ‘whipped’ to a certain degree. We might give each other a hard time over it at drinks, but it’s a key component in a stable and equal relationship. And no, we don’t want the women in the kitchen, in fact I’ll we’re the better cooks and are happy to do the cooking.
Washing dishes is another matter though, lol
So thank god for inventing dish washes.
@kobu
What’s emasculating about having cute accessories in the car?
Jman,
You’re right about honor vs. rules, but the same thinking applies to manliness. Yes, some Americans will think like Brazilians, and some Brazilians will think like Americans, but when there is an overwhelming cultural importance that one population attaches to one category of action, I think it’s fair and useful to point to that as part of the culture. A vast majority of Americans would not say that Daley acted in a manly way–he hit a guy whose hands were down after the bell. That’s what Americans concentrate on–the cheapness of the sucker punch. You might get a different reaction if you polled most Brazilians–not because Brazilians are less manly, but because manliness has different criteria in their culture. In fact, Brazilians might even think Koscheck unmanly for hiding behind the ref.
So it really isn’t universal. Masculinity is–and most cultures value elements of masculinity in their conceptions of manliness–but manliness is entirely cultural. If you looked at some of the Amazon cultures, manliness might even be 180 degrees different.
Eurasian,
I agree with you. N, I agree with you too. Eurasian, good example about the Sikh men from Punjab. When I’m in Asia, I too am surprised by what passes as manly. But that’s entirely cultural.
King,
Thanks for that.
That’s an excellent observation about the culture. I don’t speak for all Asian Americans, but it’s amazing how different it is from the culture I hear about from most Asian Americans. I don’t think Asian people in general use that criteria. But ironically, in this culture, when we talk about emasculation, to a certain point it comes from not measuring up to the combined criteria of American society in terms of manliness. We’re not seen as fighters, athletes, or being able to talk to women.
1. In many Asian households, you’re not even supposed to talk to the other sex; you’re supposed to delay that until after you graduate, get a good job, make senior VP…I don’t know. It’s not encouraged. You get a look of disapproval if you do it.
2. Sports are highly discouraged because they get in the way of school work. You even see this among parents of different ethnicities–white parents try to redshirt their kids so they have a size advantage in sports, while Asian parents try to send their kids to school early so that they can get more info in their brains at a younger age. See my colleague’s post here (along with my comment):
http://ricedaddies.blogspot.com/2010/05/not-ready-for-prime-time.html
3. I don’t think fighting is encouraged. Actually, it’s strongly discouraged, because it means you could get kicked out of school. Or arrested.
But it makes sense. I remember when I worked in NYC, and a black coworker was telling me about fights in his neighborhood where he was growing up. He was a huge dude, but he was saying how there was one guy on his block whose jab felt like a right cross. It was funny watching him re-enact it. He said, “Dude, what you got in that fist of yours?” and feigned grogginess from taking the jab.
I think it is good training for standing up for yourself, something that maybe Asian people don’t do enough of. It can build character. Fighting in the street is different from fighting in a ring. It’s not good to do, but it does teach a person to stand up for himself. (Of course when you’re at the level of Paul Daley or Nick Diaz or any of those other MMA bangers, there’s no excuse.)
On the other side, Asian people have their own criteria for manliness. I remember this guy in college who majored in the hospitality industry. He was from Hong Kong, so hospitality was a no-no. He was loaded (most HK-ers in American universities have money), had great clothes, took expensive vacations, and had a cute girlfriend. People who major in hospitality make lots of money. BUT when people asked him what he did, he had to lie by saying he was in engineering. Engineering is more of a manly field in Asian circles. Real men know how to crunch numbers, and he had to look the part.
(And yes, this is manliness, not just intelligence. His girlfriend wasn’t an engineer, but she could say whatever she wanted without people thinking less of her.)
@Big
I suppose its not much of a material difference. I have my preference to start at a universal than work down to what it means culturally. I don’t really have any major problems with starting out with a cultural. My preference would be due to I would rather start something closer to universal principles because they are more essential, while the cultural expressions are more accidental. The particular expressions of manliness in one culture are the derivatives of general principles with respect to the variable conditions that a culture experiences past and present. This to me would be more important, because I don’t think you want to look at a static idea of what manliness is.
As I think N said that emasculation is due to decades of the white man’s lies. Since I don’t think you want to simply assimilate into the culture at large, but you do have to to some point. I’m sure the preference would be to do it on your own terms. Now it is important to try to establish what being a man in the AA community means. It could just be left vacated, but something will fill that vacuum and I doubt it will be good.
I think there is also a problem with the media, since it doesn’t even really portray white males correctly. The media is filled with a lot of things you could maybe call popular arts and entertainment, with respect to art it usually is pretty bad. What it does tend to do is to concentrate on aspects and values that people really do value, but it tends to skew them to an unreasonable point. I’m sure Tim Wu fawns after people who can kill animals, but the hunters I know tend to not make it a cult of masculinity. Sure there it can fill a manly need to finish a job, but they also enjoy doing it and may even feel its their job to help control the deer population.
So I think when it comes to trying to establish what it means to be a man I think its better to try to understand principles, and how they would be achieved in a given situation. A solider might express it in a different way than say a doctor. A soldier may very well seem very manly, but the soldier does have a certain awe of the doctor. It would be important to try to see similarities and differences between different cultures. Then try to fit these ideas into something big enough to be suited to and attainable by each individual man. For the AMs it may take more into considerations their typical tendencies in mentalities.
@ N:
“And no, we don’t want the women in the kitchen, in fact I’ll we’re the better cooks and are happy to do the cooking.”
Spoken like a true beta!
Just kidding. But I agree with all that. I find that once a guy works out that he doesn’t have to spend his life constantly trying to prove his manliness to all and sundry, he actually becomes more of a man.
I have a lot of respect for a guy like Andre3000 (from Outkast), who operates within a culture (hip-hop) that is incredibly macho and homophobic yet has the balls to be completely himself and express himself flamboyantly in a non-traditional way. Likewise for Prince. It’s an attitude that says “I’m a man and I don’t give a fuck if you judge me otherwise.”
“It’s not often that I agree with you, but I do here.”
I suspect you’ll find that you’ll agree with me quite a lot, so long as it’s not about IR!
God doesn’t exist. At least I don’t think he does.
Well make up your damn mind. Does He or does He not exist? Be either hot or cold…don’t be lukewarm. That’s not masculine.
If there is no God, then you are at the mercy of alphas who set the rules, who may or may not care about “good and evil”, and they in turn are at the mercy of even bigger alphas, and so on. I don’t know about you but that’s some scary-ass arrangement. Good luck with that, btw.
The Old Testament exists. “I AM the LORD your God…” is the most masculine statement in the universe. Screw lightweight boxing. If you want to understand real masculinity then you read OT scripture. It is dripping with pure, hyper-masculinity.
But even if he did, who would determine what his naturally ordained order is? The “naturally ordained order” is different in this country than, say, in Japan.
No one determines the naturally ordained order. It is a divine, universal principle. Everyone is governed by it, whether you know it or not or like it or not. In other words, it is independent of human whim. That is why it is called “naturally ordained order”.
A prime example of a “naturally ordained order”: God is to man, what man is to woman. Man was created first. He was appointed to have dominion over all creation. Woman was created to provide companionship and to be his “helper”. Man is the leader, the woman follows him. There is a precondition for this privileged responsibility, that is, he is to be perfectly good. Our forefathers understood this, even though they were never exposed to Judeo-Christian religion. Confucian philosophy states that a ruler must be a good, just, and wise king and his subjects are to obey his rule. But if the ruler is evil and cruel, he forfeits the Mandate of Heaven, and his subjects are to overthrow his rule. So it is also between man and woman. The story of Adam and Eve was a story about the disruption of this naturally ordered order, how it happened, and the consequences that followed. Before Eve gave him the fruit from the knowledge of good and evil, Adam was perfectly good. Before he ate the fruit, he only knew good, which came from knowing and following God, who is perfectly good. After he ate the fruit, that changed. He knew both good and evil. He was also a being endowed with free will. Free will combined with a knowledge of good and evil is tainted because the potential of evil to occur always exists. This arrangement was not what God intended. Because woman is also a creature endowed with free will, the Serpent exploited this to deceive Eve into giving the fruit to Adam. By doing so, she unwittingly challenged Adam’s leadership over her. She wasn’t supposed to tell Adam what to do. Furthermore, she wasn’t supposed to be getting her directives from any being except Adam. For his part, Adam was not supposed to be taking orders from Eve. His directives were supposed to come only from God. But Eve was perfectly beautiful, and Adam wanted to “know her” (in the biblical sense), so he compromised an important component of his masculinity, leadership, and did what Eve said in order to please her. A Pandora’s Box was flung wide open when Adam ate the fruit. The story of Adam and Eve was a story of the first shit-test and how the first man failed the first shit-test. Paradise Lost. What follows is the rest of the OT, which is basically a record of mankind continuously shit-testing God.
I believe much of the gender related issues we’re having in our own Asian-American community is related to this. The myriad inter-gender hostilities, mistrust, and misunderstanding that we have is our Paradise Lost. Our fathers and forefathers were faithful to the naturally ordained order between men and women. But too many of them also abused their power and privilege (free will + knowledge of good and evil). They forfeited their leadership. When man’s leadership is compromised, his masculinity takes a huge hit, and leaves him open to emasculation by women. This is the reason why we have our Amy Tan’s and Maxine Hong Kingston’s, the original Eve’s of the Asian-American community. The Old World sins of our fathers set a highly inauspicious stage for later generations in the New World in terms of how gender relations will play out. The leadership void and lack of masculine example gave rise to a “lost generation” of AMs who never really learned how to be men. The fact that this was all happening in post-feminist America bred feminized, white-washed AMs disturbed by Joy Luck Club feminism and reactionary, white-washed, shit-testing AFs. Such AMs are poorly equipped to deal with such AFs, which only further increases their disdain. Our generation’s woes are also compounded by the fact that we have a “Serpent” in our midst spreading lies and deception about ourselves, the media.
What’s emasculating about having cute accessories in the car?
I thought I explained it. Maybe I was unclear.
Girls put cute, girly things in your car to let other girls know that you are taken. Because girls are insecure that you might cheat. In order to insure your fidelity, a girl will do such subtle, indirect things to emasculate you publicly.
A guy may put cute, girly things in his car for a couple of reasons. One is he thinks this is a kind of social-proof, which is highly questionable. The other is to mimic certain types of girly behavior in order to ingratiate himself to the opposite sex. Currying favor with girls by being girl-like.
The other day I was listening to the radio where they were discussing how some straight guys are now getting themselves lower-back tattoos.
This is one of the unintended effects of feminism-gone-wild, which tries to blur the distinction between male and female, and it confuses the shit out of everyone, and both males and females forget who they are, especially the young, impressionable, and stupid crowd, who tend to think “hey, if others are doing it then it must be OK and even cool”…and then you have truly ridiculous stuff happening like straight guys getting tramp-stamps!! Do you agree that’s nuts? I sure damn hope so. Well, putting a whole bunch of cute, stuffed dolls in your car is in the same ball-park.
Here’s an illustration on the difference between masculinity and manliness. During UFC 113, Josh Koscheck spent the better part of a three round fight laying on top of Paul Daley and whispering insults in his ear. Asked later about what he said, he wouldn’t divulge. An interviewer asked, “What? Were you saying things about his mother?” Koscheck said, “Worse.”
When the final bell rang, Daley walked up to Koschek, and it looked like they were going to shake, but then Daley sucker punched Koscheck in the face. Koscheck reeled back, laughed, and danced away, as referee Dan Miragliotta grabbed Daley and threw him against the fence. Immediately after the fight, Dana White banned Daley for life and ended his UFC career.
Now was the punch masculine? Yes. If someone says something about your mother, it makes masculine sense to pop him in face.
The answer is simple. No, it was not masculine.
I make this determination based on the absolute, universal principle that a masculine man would not allow others to exert emotional control over him. It doesn’t matter if this happened in America or Brazil. Koscheck said something provocative to Daley and Daley reacted. He ended up violating the rules of sportsmanship by punching Koscheck, thus disqualifying himself, which is what Koscheck wanted. He had no self-control.
For the record, I myself am vegetarian, use moisturiser daily, am a fabulous cook, work in the very female-dominated community sector, and have never ever beat the shit out of anyone.
Oh Lordy…
Look what I found
Beijing, Taipei concerned about effeminate recruits [Taipei Times]
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2011/03/05/2003497398
The growing femininity of men is directly impacting the quality of the PLA, making it a “socially disturbing” phenomenon, the article said.
…
“The younger generations are less pressure-resistant. The more feminine recruits entering service have to be watched carefully, in case bullying happens,” they said.
…
Speaking of a case he witnessed a decade ago, the official mentioned he had come across a soldier who spent at least half an hour applying facial cream and fixing his eyebrows each day, adding that the solder even rubbed on sun block and protection cream before exercises and drills.
In other words: BE A MAN.
Listen folks, no need to dissect what manliness or masculinity means when it comes to Asian men or any man for that matter! Look at it this way, a billion or so Asian women can’t be wrong! A man is a man is a man………..as long as he is breathing and bringing home a paycheque!
God is highly unlikely to exist. As far as that point you made about being subject to alpha men; well, I don’t think my feelings about being alpha or beta have anything to do with whether or not God exists. You’re right about masculinity and the Old Testament. I think most Western values come from the Bible. So I’ve got all the respect for that cultural connection.
Getting away from religion for a second, I don’t agree with men having leadership over women, nor do I think “God is to man, what man is to woman.” What is your proof that this arrangement is naturally ordained? I too was raised in the Church, and this was what we were taught by those arrogant, hypocritical shysters. But I think we need to maybe get away from that. Men will probably tend to lead in some areas, while women will tend to lead in others.
As I said, you’re using a different definition for “shit test.” I thought Eve just liked apples. Or maybe she liked snakes and what they had to say.
But since we’re talking about PUA and religion, was Jesus a Pick Up Artist? Was Paul?
Okay, okay, I think you need to stop using “shit-testing” and “shit test.” This is what a shit test is:
http://www.pualingo.com/pua-definitions/shit-test/
“Often unconscious (and sometimes conscious) tests that women throw at men in order to quickly determine their social status.”
The militant members of the AFCC don’t do this to determine our social status; they do it to enforce our social status.
Other than that, I do think you’re right in saying that there is a lost generation of AMs, and that we didn’t learn to be men.
@ kobukson:
This is one of the unintended effects of feminism-gone-wild, which tries to blur the distinction between male and female, and it confuses the shit out of everyone, and both males and females forget who they are, especially the young, impressionable, and stupid crowd, who tend to think “hey, if others are doing it then it must be OK and even cool”…and then you have truly ridiculous stuff happening like straight guys getting tramp-stamps!! Do you agree that’s nuts? I sure damn hope so. Well, putting a whole bunch of cute, stuffed dolls in your car is in the same ball-park.
Or you can look at it another way:
That there have always been men who do not fit into the ridiculously narrow societal definition of how a man should think and act. Social changes have meant that it is now more acceptable to be who they are.
I was a “Sensitive New Age Guy” long before it allegedly became a trend.
Do I want to get a tramp stamp or start putting cute dolls in my car? Nope. Are they less of a man for doing so? I don’t see why.
Do I care if someone else wants to do those things? Not one iota, and frankly I’m not sure why it should bother you so much.
@ Herneith
“A man is a man is a man………..as long as he is breathing and bringing home a paycheque!”
Ha! Or at least breathing with a robust life insurance policy!
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2184/83de2ad4ceb2fa751f4bb55.jpg
What kind of man gets a fucking tattoo on his lower back?
If he’s not gay or has high levels of “female affinity” then he must be seriously deluded. We can expect a tremendous psychotic backlash from him in due time as well as regular contributions to PUA forums and Roissy’s blog.
For all my complaints and displeasures about my social environment I guess its not so bad after all.
For all the femmeboys running around I see and notice a very strong trend that women are either repulsed or eventually appreciate the masculine behavioral typing more. The majority of women here want men to continue peeing into toilet bowls standing up. More than half believe that handbags for men are fucking ridiculous and borderline gay – and thus unbecoming of heterosexual men that they happen to want to date/marry/fuck.
What do you think would happen if I told them that men are getting fucking flower tattoos on their lower backs now? They would tell me IT IS FLAMING GAY!
@Eurasian Sensation
For the record I don’t give a damn if some guy decides to come out of the closet and reaffirm his identity with a vengeance. But there is a line that should not be crossed. Boys should not be duped and fooled into believing that sexual identity and gender/ behavioral typing is something that is of little consequence to an individual’s life. If you look like you pump other guy’s in their anuses few women would let you put your dick in them. Said poor sap will probably turn to PUA ten years later and fall into a downward spiral of doom.
@Eurasian
Lol, I’ve never put moisturizer put my face, I’m a well-known T-rex(i.e. meat eater with low regards to veges), but I ‘allow’ my girl to decorate my car, have a blast shopping for cute accessories with my girl in Japan last year and I’m man enough to carry my girl’s hand bag when she needs to goto the toilet or when she’s really tired (She’s a small girl ‘wearing’ a fairly big/heavy handbag that I half bought and let’s be honest, us guys are able to carry a lot less things because our girls already carries those in her handbag).
I guess we’re equally gay in many people’s eyes.
(Ooops, did I just agree with you again?)
@Kobu
You sound amazingly like one of my friend’s old school Korean American dad.
@Raquel
I agree on the tattoo thing, but then again I never understood the tattoo thing at all.
What’s the deal with the love for put bluish/blackish/grey ink permanently on your body? When that’s nothing more beautiful than skin in the first place? (talking about girls of course, I could care less if a guy decides to have tattoos his face)
@ Raguel:
if “femmeboys” bother you so much, be grateful that it leaves more women for “real” red-blooded men like yourself.
In my experience most women don’t want a femmeboy, but they don’t want a caveman either. Or to put it more correctly, a lot of them do want a caveman-type, then wonder why he turns out to be an abusive jerk with the emotional range of a stone. The modern man should be able to balance the hard and soft elements of male identity.
That still does not make it right to dupe male children into thinking there are no consequences to thinking and behaving like girls.
@ Raguel:
what does that actually mean, in a practical sense? Who is duping male children into doing this, and what is it to think and behave like a girl?
If you look like you pump other guys in their anuses few women would let you put your dick in them.
You’re beginning to sound strangely like Kobukson.
@ E.S.
Ah I see. You expect me to write a thesis in order to reverse the 10,000 hours of liberal and queer studies you read in college and early adulthood.
Perhaps you should open your mind up a little bit, and instead be asking yourself the more practical questions like “What is the root of my gender confusion and need for ambiguity in sexual identity?”
However I admit to having a crude streak
@ Raguel:
Perhaps you should open your mind up a little bit, and instead be asking yourself the more practical questions like “What is the root of my gender confusion and need for ambiguity in sexual identity?”
See, it’s questions like that one that are part of the problem. Forget the consequences of “teaching and behaving like girls”… what are the consequences of teaching boys to “act like men” via shame and implications about their sexuality? In other words, to be ultra-competitive, refusing to back down from confrontation, needing to be in control of women, and regarding it as taboo to express “soft” emotions.
Given that only around 7% of all people in the prison system are women, there just might be some value in being in touch with one’s feminine side.
How is it that you associate teaching boys to “act like men” with everything negative?
@ Raguel:
it’s not solely negative. My point is that traditional expectations of masculine identity have many negative side effects, as well as the obvious positive ones.
Masculine traits, as our culture defines them, have their good and bad sides. For example, a real man is meant to be strong, resilient and courageous, and strive to be the best. That’s great, and obviously inspires men to do many important things. Except it is those same expectations that lead to men being involved in stupid displays of machismo such as fighting and street racing. They are the same expectations that prevent men from getting help (emotional, medical, etc) when they need it, because they think asking for assistance is for wimps.
A healthy masculine identity needs to be in touch with its softer side, except that softer side has traditionally been marginalised as “girly” or “gay”. We need to be able to hang on to our male strength yet minimise its potentially destructive side.
There have always been, and always will be, men who do not fit into the mould of how our society typically defines a real man. Their lot has traditionally been to hide it and put on a front, sometimes overcompensating, or otherwise be bullied and be a social outcast. The recent loosening of male stereotypes has actually meant it is more ok for people to be who they truly are. So I don’t see it at all as “teaching boys to act like girls”.
It’s like those conservatives who claim that our liberal society is teaching people to be gay. It’s not; they’ve always been there, only now they can be more open about it.
I don’t want to live in a society full of guys who wear make-up and have tramp stamps, but I don’t want a society full of guys like the cast of “Jersey Shore” either. Just like in Star Wars, you gotta have balance to the force. The societies in which masculine identities are the most rigidly defined also tend to be the most violent and oppressive.
I agree with much of what you say, actually.
Social expectations of “manliness” will never go away, part of it because of human dependence on the male quality (for example, who do we need to constantly dupe into fighting our dirty wars?), part of it because much of what it means to be a man is also wired into us on a genetic level.
I am thinking that there must be a better way to nurture and cultivate the strengths of our male children so that their full potential can be realised.
I agree with you too, Eurasian.
One thing I’ve noticed, and I wonder if some of you have noticed it too: In Asian American/Asian Other Western Country culture, there’s a push for MEN to become lawyers and engineers and business people. It’s so inculcated into our psyches that it’s almost as if guys have won some kind of race if they get there. So instead of the “alpha men” supporting Asian American artists, musicians, and writers, there’s a competitive mindset that takes over. Not all alpha men are like this of course, but I’ve met quite a few who laugh at how the non-alpha artists and creators struggle, and lord over them with the money they hold. It would be funny except that these “alphas” are screwing their own kids out of a culture.
Raguel,
About nurturing and cultivating boys–check out Michael Gurian’s work:
http://www.michaelgurian.com/
^ This is interesting, thanks for the link!
I will check it out now
I do not see the problem is if a person is masculine enough, the problem is if a person feels emasculated. Its a bit like self-esteem, with most people you may never think about it, but if you get on some sort of a team with someone who has a lack of it, it can be so so draining to everyone. Its not really good to just let it go, and its not good to pretend its not there either.
I think this is where the 5 points originally posted come into play. A family and a community can really put what ever the wider environment implying and to place it into a proper context. If you do have someone who may be introverted, small, and not quite as smart you have someone really at risk of not feel adequate. Is there a place for that person in society? Of course. If I had to sum up masculinity as concise as possible it would be, “can you do what you are responsible to do?” That person can do that, especially if your not trying to fit the person into a position he wasn’t suited to do. If you are an adult you can guide that person though the challenges he should met, and help him avoid the ones which he shouldn’t undertake.
I think the community and family is good to for other issues. You can give children reason to feel good about their heritage and where they come from. One problem here is that your probably going to have inconsistent consideration of Asian heritage in schools. There is a need to place more emphasis on US, European, Roman and Greek history due to the need to try to understand the underpinnings of the country. It is all the more important that the families and community actively balances that out. First it is good for the parents and community members, and good for the children to remember where they came from, and they are not marginal people.
Next I think its good for IR disparity, it should be good for girls to understand that Asian men are not second rate. Besides I think if the girl is really IR dating because they are running away from their culture, she probably is really ready to IR date. You need to come to some grips with who you are if you are running away form it, otherwise it’ll keep coming back. Besides your children will be apart of the group you are trying to run from.
Perhaps too a stronger community will help show the need that people who do all types of jobs are good. Professional careers are great, but that is provided that is what you are really suited to do. If someone drops out of the professional track, it does not mean they are losers. Girls shouldn’t be seeing people in the community act that way either. Loser are people who quit and become useless. A closer knit community can better see the achievements made by people who do worthwhile work that may have been easily overlooked. A girl seeing her family celebrate an achievement made by a guy who worked outside of the traditionally celebrated fields, may grow to have a wider appreciation of guys (and girls) who do work in those jobs. As I see I said girls, but same applies to guys.
There is lots of ways to be masculine. I don’t really care if you have stuffed animals in your car. Perhaps its even good to yield when it doesn’t matter. The main thing about masculinity is there are a handful of time when you need to come to account and be responsible, just do what you need to do. When it comes to a question of hardness and softness, the people that come through when it is needed can be soft at many times, its just the times they need to be hard they are hard. The people who are hard all the time, can end up breaking down when they need to be. A lot of time, those people are just putting on a show, and don’t show up when needed.
@Kobu
You sound amazingly like one of my friend’s old school Korean American dad.
Thanks for the compliment. I’m like an old school ajussi, but with a much better vocabulary.
The other day, I was at a Whole Foods, with my groceries at the checkout. The cashier girl was busy chatting with her friend and pretending to not notice me.
In a very loud voice, I said
“Hey!!! Are you gonna talk all day or are you gonna do your job?”
They immediately stopped talking and the girl started ringing up my stuff.
I’ve got a homework assignment for all of you:
Like I’ve done above, tell a short story about one thing you did during the week that expressed your masculinity.
I urinated standing up.
And I splashed the floor.
I urinated standing up.
And I splashed the floor.
Aaaaannnnnnddd this, ladies and germs, is the A#1 reason to
Sit
the fuck
Down.
You just proved our point, King. Thank you!
My masculine action took place today. With just one sharp knife, I cut up four organic chickens:
I said, “C’mon chickens, you…CHICKENS!”
I woke up. Had a shower. Spent two minutes on my hair and went to work. And I feel very masculine.
I live on a main road, and on Saturday night a bunch of guido douchebags were pulled over for speeding outside my house at 2:30am. Even after the cop left, they hung around talking loudly and aggressively for 10 minutes. I walked out and said simply, “Guys, do you mind taking your conversation somewhere else? People are trying to sleep here.” They apologised and moved on straight away.
@Ricecakerabbit
I disagree, it is a wife’s and girlfriend’s duty to clean toilets.
Last Sunday I chased my nieces and nephews around the park, and then mock arm-wrestled with them. They were between 4 to 8 years old.
Later I showed off by doing plyometric pushups real fast, then I gave them all a ride on my back as I did more push ups. I also carried them around my shoulders or hefted them above my head so that they could “see higher”. Lol they could not get enough of it and would queue up again and again to take turns. I really enjoyed it, it made me feel younger too.
But actually the reason I did that was because I canceled my gym membership two weeks ago and needed a proper workout.
Man, you all need to practice your aim.
I disagree, it is a wife’s and girlfriend’s duty to clean toilets.
Epic Fail
If another human being is very disrespectful toward both your cultural heritage and you as a person and then the two of you get into a spat and you glare at that human being and say icily, “Back the fuck down or I will destroy you,” is that masculine or feminine?
It’s very feminine. It’s not something that a guy would ever say to another guy.
But that’s okay because it’s scarier when a female says it. It’s kinda like bringing the listener into a dark place filled with black magic.
Let me break it down. It’s kinda like the way guys streetfight vs. the way girls do it. With guys, there’s a kind of symbolism in the pecking order that gets reinforced. A guy may only have to punch another man and knock him down, and the fight is over. Women tear each others eyes out, and someone is leaving with scars.
What would Hubby say in that situation? Probably something a bit more man to man:
“You got an issue with my race, man? You got an issue? You got an issue just come and say it me, motherfucker. Come on and say it, motherfucker.”
It’s actually much more effective for a guy to talk to a guy like that, and much more effective for a female to say, “Back the fuck down or I will destroy you.”
@ BWW:
LOL that is so true! I totally see Hubby saying something like that! That or the guy would just get decked, no warning, nothing. Hahaha. Pissing off a woman is probably a much worse idea than pissing off a man.
Unmasculine?
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01833/christchurch-4_1833555b.jpg
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/akaiwa.html
@tz–fantastic find. That has got to rank for badass of month, if not the year #swoon#
Awesome find, TZ!
Hi guys,
I am a Chinese mom from China. I’ve been reading your comments for a while, it quite interesting to me. I would like to join your discussion. I have a lot of questions regarding the growing up of Asian men in America because I have a 12 years old son. I often think about how should I raise him, what is important, and what’s not. You guys discussion here seems quite relevant.
Chinese Mom,
I would LOVE to discuss this issue with you!
So questions that I have:
1. Where in China do you live? City or rural?
2. What are important values for men that you seek to instill in your son?
3. Does it relate to stories that you told your son when he was a small child? (This is a Frank Chin type question.)
First I would like to share some of my observation about ABCs.
I came to this country in late 80′s as a graduate student in UCLA. During my years of studying there, I met some ABCs on and off campus. I felt those ABC girls were quite “normal”, not much different from white of black students I met, I can communicate with them easily. To my surprise, those ABC boys were different, a lot of them were not easy to talk to, kind of “weird”, gave me a feeling that they were bullied or not well accepted by peers when they were kids. At the time I was quite ignorant about American culture and what was like to grow up here, I just assume that ABCs as ethnic minority, they were probably racially discriminated against, but I was puzzled why girls seems fine. Over 20+ years of my staying in this country, I’ve met about 30 Asian men(mostly Chinese)who were grown up here, about 30-40% of them are not very sociable.
Those early years observations have stayed in my head all these year. When my children entered school here, I paid special attention to their social environment. To my surprise, there is no discrimination against ethnic minority, at least in elementary school, majority Chinese and Indian kids are happy and get along well with Caucasian kids( our district has about 90% White, 3% Asians).
I have a 14 years old daughter and 12 years old son. Since my daughter enter the middle school, I made special efforts trying to find what make those ABC boys “weird”. I talked to several high school and college ABC girls, some Chinese mothers who have kids in high school, I searched internet. Here are some of my findings:
Almost all the girls I’ve talked to, they told me that Asian boys(mostly Chinese boys) are not doing well socially in school, they are low in popularity hierarchy. One high school senior told me that they(Asian boys) are intimidated by guys and scare of girls. A Chinese mom with a graduating high school boy told me that Asian boys social ability can not compare to White, when I asked that some of them should be okay, she told me that none of the Chinese boys she know though her son can compare to a normal Caucasian boy. I recently have a conversation with a senior college girl from an Ivy school. I brought up this Asian boy and IR issue. She told me that most Asian boys are weird, girls are normal(similar to my observation), most Asian girls would like to date Asian boys because of same culture background, but too few Asian boys are sociable.
When I started looking into this problem about two years ago, I first searched internet with words like “asian boy”, “popularity”…, which lead me to Asian men stereotypys: nerdy, shy, quite, passive, weak…… When I thought about it, those 30-40% non-sociable ABC guys I met more or less fits into these stereotypes.
I later found some PUA website, including Asian playboys and Better Asian Men, I read a lots of their stuff. I also read academic publication about Asian men, and some regarding interracial dating. What puzzles me and frustrates me the most is that there is barely any article or discussion about Asian boy or men’s social problems and the difficulties they are facing, no one even acknowledge that except few articles from PUA website. What I saw are the poisoned atmosphere between Asian men and women in those IR debating forum. Most AMs seems truly believe that Hollywood and white washed AF should be blamed for their problem, also there is barely any AFs talk about the social problems that AMs have, which makes me wonder if the observations of mine and those ABC girls I talked to are correct and worth further look into. The academic publication I found are more or less about what you guys discussed here: masculinity and emasculation of Asian men. So here are my questions that I hope people on this board can shed some light for me:
1, Do large percent of AMs have social problems or not? Are those stereotypes true for a lot of AMs? If it is true, what are the causes for that?
2, Are most Asian boy down low in popularity ladders in high school? Do you think this may hinder the development of Asian boys social ability?
3, From my observation, it seems that elementary school and most of the middle school, majority of Asian boys are doing fine. What’s happened between high school and college that destroyed Asian boys spiritually?
4, A lot of AM say that AM have to face a lot of bullshits, what are they besides getting a lot of rejection from girls? All I saw are AMs complaining about interracial dating disparity, I don’t see any complaining about work place discrimination. Does this means that AMs doing well in work place?
5, Seeing the way of my fellow Chinese raising our kids, I know the the root of Chinese boys’ social problems lies with us. The way we raise our boys are wrong. But exactly where are we wrong? What is the right way? If we don’t change, I don’t see AM’s situation can change.
@big
Sorry to mislead you. I’m originally from mainland China, now I live in upstate New York.
For your question #2, I’ve been thinking a lot about what values I should instill in my son and daughter, my conclusion is I should teach them western values (or in another word, “modern society values”)。In Chinese, we often say “入乡随俗”，which equivalent to “when in Rome do as the Romans do”. Another reason for this is that China has been experiencing rapid modernization in last 100 years, specially in recent 50 years since communism took the power. Our old value system has totally collapsed, new value system hasn’t been established. Most of our traditional Chinese values aren’t good for modern societies and neither are my values. Chinese in China now a days don’t teach much about value to their kids except push kids to study. One of my unsolved problems about how should I raise my kids is that what Asian values I should instill in them, how should I help them to define themselves as an Asian.
As for the masculinity discussed here, I don’t see much difference between “Chinese masculinity” and “Americans masculinity”. When people occasional ask a man to be a man in China, I think it means same as here: ask guys to be courageous; to stand up for themselves, for their principles and believes or for the people they represent; to take risks; to take responsibilities; to face the consequences of their doing, etc. The difference is that we don’t push it that much. Besides, for thousands of years, we had very suppressive society, specially in last 300 year under the rule of Qing dynasty. To obey those in power (in a family which means the elders)to be able to survive took much higher priority, which means that it was very difficulty for anybody to be courageous, to stand up for anything.
From above, you may know the answer for your third question: I didn’t tell my son any Chinese story to teach him Chinese value when he was little, none of those old story fits todays modern society.
Chinese Mom,
That’s fascinating! You know, I’ve heard the same thing from others about Chinese values. Given the explosion of Chinese capitalism, I think there probably is some truth that old Chinese values may be obsolete in some sense. That’s not to say they’re all obsolete, but there could be a realignment going on in place.
I tried to tell some Chinese stories to my son, but it was hard. I wasn’t sure if it was because they didn’t fit my mindset or they were not fitting society’s mindset. I still do tell him Chinese stories, but the feeling is quite different from the stories that I was raised on. The upside for us is that these are exciting times! We get to see how we reinvent what we have.
I think manliness is mostly similar between Chinese and Western culture too, but I do see some differences. For example, Chinese men can be more expressive and still be seen as manly. Soldiers writing poems, for example, is okay. Or at least seems to be okay. Hmm. What do you think? Good point about deference and courage. I’ll have to think about that. It’s fascinating that the old system is collapsing, and it’s exciting because it means CHANGE.
About your observations:
Yes, I agree there’s a huge difference between Asian men and Asian women in this country. For the most part–and I think people will agree with me here–there is an outlet through which Asian American women can assimilate. Intermarriage is the main way. Sure, Asian women still endure racism-sexism after intermarriage, but American people in general accept the AF immigration story. Look at Amy Chua.
I think that’s the main problem with Asian men in this country. There is no outlet. If an Asian man has skill or something to say, he faces opposition from both the mainstream and his own. It’s hard for men to socialize if they don’t have the structure and faith in their society. This is not to say that it’s hopeless–clearly some Asian men manage to thrive despite the opposition–but when a system is stacked against a demographic, much of that demographic won’t do well, hence the 30-40% non-sociability that you mention.
Look at this IR thing. That’s huge. Almost 0% of Asian American female celebrities date Asian. There’s no way that canNOT influence young Asian men.
So:
1. Yes, a large percentage have social problems, and it’s because of society’s hierarchies and the lack of structure for Asian men.
2. Yes, most are, and yes, I do think it hinders their social ability.
3. In middle school, they go through puberty. That’s the difference. A good book I recommend is this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Where-Body-Meets-Memory-David/dp/0385471831
4. An Asian man is more likely to have an Asian woman say, “I don’t date Asian men” than to hear “I don’t hire Asian men” from an employer. They face $24,000 worth of discrimination in dating; they don’t face this big a disparity in hiring.
5. I don’t know. But I think it has something to do with structure and being able to teach Asian American men about society in a way that makes sense. There’s lots of chaos, and people aren’t talking as intelligently as they could be.
“What puzzles me and frustrates me the most is that there is barely any article or discussion about Asian boy or men’s social problems and the difficulties they are facing, no one even acknowledge that except few articles from PUA website.”
That is just an indication of how invisible Asian men are. And that’s why I don’t really feel comfortable concluding the degree or existence of social problems within our demographic – at this point in time, we just can’t know how Asian men perceive their own social capabilities because there don’t seem to be any studies available on the subject.
Also, is high school popularity a good indicator of how socially successful an individual will be in later life? I don’t really think so. This is just anecdotal, but I’ve heard about many kids who were hugely popular in school yet who never attain that same level of social popularity in their adult lives and then feel like failures – it’s almost as though the high point of their lives peaked too early and it was downhill from then on. In fact, some of the most beloved and influential cultural heroes were social rejects in school. If anything we should be teaching Asian boys to embrace their status as outsiders and not fight against it but learn to be okay with it.
Plus, what exactly does it mean to have social problems? Are Asian men friendless? Can’t make or keep friends? What exactly are we talking about here, what is this problem? If we are saying that Asian men need confidence, then that is a different question altogether because people can be confident and socially awkward. What exactly are Asian boys supposed to be doing that they apparently are not?
“I think that’s the main problem with Asian men in this country. There is no outlet. If an Asian man has skill or something to say, he faces opposition from both the mainstream and his own.”
I agree 100%.
Chinese mom, there are a few good stories your son can read. Shuihu Zhuan (Water Margins) is one, Sanguo Shidai is another, perhaps even Xi You Ji if your child can be guided to recognize nuances. Two out of three of these series were written in one of the bloodiest periods of history where the human spirit had not yet been utterly crushed. We can all learn something from that.
I am not American but I have a few observations and opinions….
a) The son learns much from the father, and if the father is just a salaryman with zero status in society and a passive, introverted, unforceful personality there is a high chance the son will fold under social pressure.
b) Male children who grow strong enough to beat up their bullies or at least physically intimidate them are more outgoing, and never have the problems the more quieter ones do. Good idea to feed your child well and encourage him to play lots of sports during his growing years, as well as martial arts. Its never good to be too afraid of violence because people can sense that, and stupid or unscrupulous people will use that against you.
c) Other male children who at least have outgoing friends or peer circles who actively look out for each other also never become the loners you mentioned.
d) I think that there is a strong possibility that the problems these men face is because their individual wills and desires were suppressed from a young age so that they can be “moulded” more easily. Unfortunately a child cannot tell the difference between a parent and an outsider using the same tactics on him. In essence in older times parents effectively bullied and emotionally and mentally abused their children into being more pliant, perhaps to “study” more, or take over the family “business” (sweatshop). The irony is that when they came to America in the end they ended up killing off their own offspring because of this, lol. Nobody will pray at their graves now, lololol.
e) The environment has a very strong influence on a child’s development. A place that is less racist and where your child will be accepted as a part of society with all its protection and support will do better than a place where he will be singled out at every turn by everybody. There are some places in America like that. The Philadelphia school bullying incident comes to mind.
f) So in my humble opinion for male children to thrive they must be encouraged to develop not just their potential, but also their WILL and natural drive, to the highest possible level.
g) Regarding success with women I have observed ONE thing that all those PUA morons wilfully ignore and obfuscate so they can sell more products to ignorant men.
Women are most attracted to men who are in their PRIMES, or are very close to it. Prime meaning physically, meaning socially, meaning financially, meaning emotionally. Etc. If you observe the way society is structured now with the school system, not a lot of boys reach near their prime when they are twenty either. A lot of boys of all races are unsure of themselves and a bit awkward at that age. This cannot be fixed by PUA remedies of course.
If your son is socially confident, physically strong and healthy, and has had a lot of interactions with women the same age before he is twenty, there is a high chance that he will end up fine.
Hi guys, thanks for replying.
@Raguel
I almost 100% agree with you except women and PUA part:). What you mentioned here is the way I am raising my son now, but I am the only Chinese mom raising a son like this in my social circle, I am constantly in doubt of myself. Besides, there are some side effects of this(he has some negative traits of those jocks now, like, not interested in study as other Chinese kids, full of himself, rude to people….), I hope this is just temporary behavior for his age.
As for the PUA, I read some of their stuff. I do agree with you guys’ negative comments about them, they don’t respect women, not honest,…, etc. The positive side of PUA is that I think their stuff works. As a woman myself, I think they know women better than most of other men. They are constantly in the field, so they have more experiences and knowledge about women and human interactions. Comparing their writing with other books about social skill I’ve read, I think their stuff is more relevant and doable. A lot of heir methods not only useful for picking up women, but also good for general human interaction. I specially like their inner game parts, I learned a lot myself. Overall, I think it is a double edged sword, dangerous but useful, it hurts women, it probably will make some men addicted to this pick up game and lost themselves.
@Ben,
The “social problems” I meant in above post is that from my observation and the information I got from those ABC girls, a large percent of Chinese boys in high school and college do fit into those stereotypes: nerdy, passive, quite, boring, shy, not assertive, lack of confident….
Middle school and high school popularity is a very complicated thing. It is not like what portrayed in media. I think popularity is an indicator of social values(EQ, social skill, maturity, look, personality…)of kids at this age. I live in a good school district in our area, parents here value education. From my observation and the information I got from my kids, most caucasian kids with good grades doing well socially too. They don’t necessarily be the most popular one in school, but they have above average popularity. On the other hand, most Chinese boys fall bellow average with a few at bottom, most Chinese girls are not doing so well either, but a lot better than boys.
@big
I need time to organize my thought to reply to you. so please wait.
Aiya I forgot today is April Fool
@ Chinese Mom: I’m from upstate New York. I’d be happy to discuss this matter in depth with you via e-mail. I have lots of opinions on this, but none I care to share here.
@Chinese Mom
There’s obviously no single situation to all problems, so here’s my very biased views based on personal experiences.
First of all, the ways that Asian males and asian females are treated quite differently here and a huge gender gap that had occurred as a result. And I suspect it would extremely difficult for AFs, even though they would and should share similar values and experiences being a minority, to understand or empathize the hardships and difficulties of Asian males growing up in a WHITE MEN – dominated environment.
Being ‘different’ makes you an easy target for bullying and there’s a social environment where people thinking that mocking Asians is still socially acceptable. The sad part is that a fair of the those that are considered “very well-assimilated” will actually join those bullies and assist in the ridiculing of the subject being bullied. In doing so, they think they would be able to elevate and differentiate themselves and to make sure they are not the ones being bullied. I guess it’s easier to join them rather than beat them.
Anyway, my opinion is, unlikely what the optimist will like to telling people, race is still extremely important and we’re not at a stage where you can expect all the races to get along fine. If you study all the smaller social circles, the white guys will social with white guys, blacks with blacks and Asian with Asians. Throughout my high school life, there’s very little evidence that white guys tries to interact or social with the guys from the other races (even though the media likes to protray them as a progressive race).
And if a school is dominated by whites, with the help of a currently very pro-white male media environment and especially when the kids are at an age where TV/WEB/Magazines is the confines of their world, it’s no wonder that the most popular boys would not be part of the ones considered popular.
My advice is, encourage your kid to conduct social activities such as sports and preferrably with other Asian kids first, because that allows them to develop as an ‘individual’ rather than as a minority. But encourage them to interact with other Asians that are not from the same ethnicity – I’m ethnic Chinese myself, but some of my closest friends are of ethnicities from South East Asia. That way, you kid can develop an asian-american, yet culturally diverse social group. And because of the hardships we face as a race, I’ll say in general that bond is stronger as a result.
And once you have a strong social group that APPRECIATES you rather than TOLERATES you, the personality developments, the interaction skills, confidence etc just comes with it and bullies in general target individuals rather than packs or groups.
@tz,
Thanks. How can I contact you? Should I post my e-mail here? I have a daughter too, I do need somebody like you to give me advices.
@N
Thanks for the input. What you said here is just what has being on my mind recently.
Let me introduce my son a little bit first. He is 12 years old, 6th grade now, high eq, strong will and strong personality type, very tall and good looking, an early bloomer, not very athletic, but I have forced him to play contact sports since 4 year old, now he is good at football and basketball. He is very popular at school, girls like him too, well-accepted and respected by his white peers for now. In our school district, there is not many Asians, about 3-4% Chinese and 3-5% Indians, very few Chinese and Indians play contact sports, a lot of Asians do tennis and swimming though, but he doesn’t like those two sports. So here is my question:
1, Will he likely be able to continue like this till the end of high school? What could happen to him to make him withdraw?
2, He is very race blinded now. Recently, we watched Hangover DVD together, from what I read from internet, AMs hate Leslie Chow character, but he loves it, he think it’s funny. How and when should I talk to him about race issue in this country, or he will realize this naturally?
3, What likely will happen to him in college? Will he be considered as a banana and be rejected by Asian peers? Will he be rejected by White too because he is an Asian?
4, Could you tell me what kind of high school you went to? What percentage of Asian population in your school? From what you and Raguel suggested, Asian kids from California schools with large Asian population should do better. I thought so too not long ago. But after I read so many comments about inter-racial dating and watched some youtube video on this issue, I began to have doubt. The youtube video Why Asian Girls Go For White Guys, AFs in Berkeley seems have as negative views on AMs as other places, if not worse; I saw several AMs in California says they wanted to date WF but impossible; I’ve read an article interviewing AMs in college, one guy from Berkeley said he successfully dated a White girl, which helped him to gain status among his Asian peer. All these tell me that in California, Asian kids may have easy time through high school, but in college, AMs will have tough time. I’m also wondering
if AA grew up in California would be able to feel comfortable to live and work in other places of the country. What do you think?
5, Is assimilate a good thing or a bad thing? He is very well assimilated now, will he be end up with bounding with neither race and accepted by neither? I sometimes feel that it would be so hard for AMs to be able to handle Whites well at same time being part of Asian.
When I met those ABC guys 20 years ago, I knew by intuition that there were something very wrong with the environment they grew up in. That’s why I still worry about my son so much even though he is born with so many good traits and doing so well in school now. I want to prepare him well for the tough life ahead of him. Raising a girl and a boy makes me realized that girls and boys are two different species, girls are more resilient and flexible, boys are more delicate. It is much harder to raise a boy right, specially Asian boy. Besides, girls can be soft, weak or strong, they all can find comfortable place in this society. For boys, being tough and strong is the only way.
@Chinesemom
I’m a Cal kid. The race part hit me when I was around 13, 13 and a half when I went from an all-white circle to an all-asian circle and never looked back. I’ll say it’s when puberty hits, that’s when the negatives of race really start to emerge.
If you’re kid is tall, then you probably don’t have to worry much, they get it easy. If your kid go through high school well, I don’t think he’ll have trouble in College/Uni. Yes, that’s a large number of girls that will be similar to the videos you’ve seen, but there’s also a large number that doesn’t, not to mention there will be an influx of overseas Asian students that I found is more receptive of Asian American guys compared to the Asian American girls (my theory is less exposure to media here). But it’s always good to make sure your kid learns Chinese, you never when it’ll come in handy.
If he likes white girls…well, that’s not my expertize.
I’ll be honest to say that I don’t really believe in assimilation, I’m more a believer of respect and co-existence. If you son hangs around a group that is 99% white guys, then obviously there’s a very good chance he wouldn’t have the same popularity amongst Asian guys. Some unique ones might have the charm to fit in with both, but that’s relative rare. Generally, you have to make a choice and you can’t get the best of both worlds. You can’t have the cake and still keep one in the fridge.
How’s the relationship between your daughter and your son? That potentially is a fairly good indicator of how well you son’s social skills are developing. And if they go to the same high school, the sister’s view/treatment of her little could go a long way in shaping other people’s perception or reception of her brother if their ages are close enough to have common friends. I have a sister that loves me a lot and I know that gave me a strong base to begin with in terms with interaction with girls, confidence etc. Feeling loved and wanted is actually a key component in creating confidence in my opinion
Working will be fine. My department is 95% white and being a youngish team, we all get along fine. We chat sports (mainly basketball and a bit of baseball), get drunk after work etc. Working relationships is quite different to high school and college as a sense of professionalism is pre-required (i.e. you don’t get to choose your work mates) and you don’t need to be that close to each other to maintain healthy working relationships. On the other hand, the glass ceilings is not something that good social skills can necessarily eliminated and will be there for the forseeable future. And that’s really way down the future.
My irresponsible advises basing on my own experiences are:
* Keep the basketball thing going, it’ll only be good for him
* Lay down rules but expect the rules to be challenged and willing to listen and compromise if necessary (but not too often)
* Don’t get freaked out if you find porn on his computer once he turns 13.
Chinese Mom,
TZ asked me to e-mail you her address, so I’ll do that with the e-mail you provided for your comments.
@N,
Thanks a lot. Your story really helps.
I ‘ll be alright for him watching porn at young age. We are very open about sex at home right now. He talks and jokes a lot about sex in home and in school with friend. I’ve been encourage him to ask his crushes out since second grade. I’m just not sure when should I accept him to have sex. Going out with girls at early age inevitable will lead to early sex, and girls are very aggressive these days.
I agree with you that glass ceilings will be there for the foreseeable future. But for people with good personality and social skills , the ceiling will be a lot higher. When I was in UCLA 20 years ago, most of Chinese students there were from the few top universities in China, I am one of those too, a lot of people from my school came to this country. We are probably the smartest people in China. 20 years later, the results are in. You know what, those of us with good personalities and social skills generally do much better in life than those without, a lot of doors open for them automatically. Some of my Chinese school mates are really successful in their careers, even as an immigrant men in this country, even they are short and not so good looking. To be successful, you have to have the right stuff, personality and social skills are big part of it. Once I read an article about importance of social skills, among those comments followed the article, several caucasian men said their lack of social skills, their “nice guy” personality didn’t do well for them in their careers. From what I’ve read, a lot of Asian men have this “nice guy” personality, which hard for them to get girls, and I believe it will be hard for them to be promoted to leadership position later if they don’t change. I let my kids watch Randy Pausch’s Last Lecture video once, and told them all walls there are for a reason, the rules in our home are walls, the no’s I said to them are walls, If them really want something, they have to keep pushing, with right tactics and not to give up easily.
@big
The topics you talked about here are big and complicated. Culture, values, national characters, these are the things that are really hard to talk about, specially for China. We are in a chaotic and rapidly changing era, our culture, values, national characters are not well defined. Most of books and articles about china written by western scholars are superficial, the ones by Chinese scholars are generally bad, in my opinion.
Even though most of our old values are obsolete, we still should have some good characters and values in us which define us and make us successful today. Yes, I consider we are very successful as a nation. China was as dark as medieval time in the West 100 years ago, if not darker. Seeing how much we progressed in such short time, I have to say that there must be things that are really good in us, which we should treasure and be proud of. I think one of our characters as a nation is RESILIENCE. Here are some of the stories related to resilience（also relevant to the manliness discussed here) from Chinese history that you may tell your son:
1, Mencius said:\天将降大任于斯人也，必先苦其心志，劳其筋骨，饿其体肤，空伐其身行，行弗乱其所为，所以动心忍性，曾益其所不能\. Which roughly means that before giving man big responsibility, god first will make him suffer in every way so that he can be strong, be capable and be wise.
2, 韩信胯下受辱。The story is about Han Xin, the most famous military general in history who helped emperor Liu Bang to establish Han dynasty. Han Xin was insulted when he was young. A neighborhood kid challenged Han Xin in public either to kill him to show bravery, or to crawl under his crotch. Han Xin chose to crawl under his crotch.
3, 越王勾践卧薪尝胆. This story is about Gou Jian, king of Yue 2000 years ago. Yue lost to Wu in a battle. Gou Jian surrendered himself to Wu as a hostage. He worked as a servant to Fu Chai, king of Wu. He was humiliated a lot. Once Fu Cha was sick, Gou Jian volunteered to cure him, but he wasn’t allowed to see Fu Cha, so he tasted Fu cha’s stool to prescribe medicine. He gained trust of Fu Cha and was allowed to go back to Yue. After he came back, he became a good king, made his kingdom strong and wealthy. He sent gifts and beautiful women to Fu Cha to corrupt him. Eventually, he concurred Wu.
(you may google my Chinese and use google translate to get the idea of the full stories. )
Regarding manliness, I don’t think Chinese men are expressive at all. Haven’t you heard of \asian poker face\? In general, I think Westerners are more expressive, both men and women.
Most Chinese soldiers didn’t write poems. Before 1949, China probably have more than 95% illiteracy. In old time, poem was an important part of writing, anyone who can read and write should be able to write some sort of poem. Mao is a great poet in recent time, some emperor and generals wrote good poems that are famous in history. But what expressed in those poems are very manly, they are about anger, ambition, vision,…, etc.
I still don’t think there is much difference in the meaning of manliness between Chinese and Western culture. The differences are that we don’t value it that much, so men don’t show it that often. Poverty and the suppressive nature of society also made men can not afford to be manly. Being manly means taking the risk. When you have nothing to lose, or when you have abundance, it easy to be manly. Otherwise, you have to calculate. We are also non aggressive people, that’s why we built Great Wall. Besides, most women don’t like rough, big muscled macho type of guys, those guys tend to be stupid, our culture values brain much more than muscle.
From what you guys discussed here, I think Chinese men has been emasculated for more than a thousand years by confucianism(not same as Confucius’ teaching). When a man had to obey his parents, his grandparents, and everybody senior than him in his family, no matter how bad and unreasonable those people were, how could he still be a man? The only thing that could make him feel like a man was his power over his woman, which was given to him by confucianism. In nowadays China, this power of men was taken away by the Communist, Mao said in 50′s that women can \hold half of the sky\. Women was given the same rights as men, encouraged, or even forced to leave home to work, to gain financial independent. Many men are called having \气管炎\（chronic bronchitis），which sounds same as \妻管严\ , meaning he is \afraid“ of his wife. Chinese men seemed take these changes all right, I’ve never heard of much complain about this gender role change. Men in Shanghai famous for their willingness to do house chores, they cook, they clean, they shop, they do everything, and we are ok with that.
ChineseMom,
Wow, that’s a lot to digest, but it’s really good stuff. Thanks for the information.
Let me look into some of those and get back to you.
Talk to TZ. We may have to do some kind of podcast or something. This is absolutely fascinating stuff.
Great comments, ChineseMom.
I agree with much of what you say. You could be mostly right about Chinese and Western manliness when you say that the main difference is that we don’t value it as much. I did have questions though:
1. When we talk about Gou Jian eating stool or Han Xin crawling under a man’s crotch, aside from themes of resilience, how do most Chinese people view this story? Do Chinese people see this as shameful? Necessary? Intelligent (since both eventually overcome it and end up in a better place)?
I think most Westerners would not view it as manly. Most might even react with horror. Not that it’s wrong or right, but the Western view of manliness relies on saying how something is and not holding back. It’s not viewed as “manly.”
An example would be in Forrest Griffin’s book Got Fight?. He talks about how he and some jock friends picked on a nerdy skinny guy with a pocket protector. The nerd responded by punching back. When they knocked him down, the nerd guy kept coming forward. They’d punch him, he’d fall down, and he just kept getting up and swinging and kicking with every weapon in the arsenal. Eventually Forrest and his friends were so scared/impressed that they ran away.
Of course this may be manly, but it isn’t always smart. Except for certain exceptions who for some reason or other bounce back well (BJ Penn, Matt Hughes), getting knocked out causes permanent physical and mental damage. American politicians and business people hide stuff all the time in order to “calculate.” It’s impossible to be a great politician without calculating and withholding at times. HOWEVER…they still have to act like they aren’t withholding since it’s not manly to withhold.
Is this same version of manliness present in China?
I remember that in Japan I was once watching TV with a White British dude. In Japan they often have storylines where a salaryman who does something wrong kneels on the ground and begs for forgiveness. I have no idea whether this takes place in real life (I should probably ask), but we were watching a scene where some young guy was begging and getting smacked around by some older division head.
The British dude asked, “Why on earth would anyone put up with that?”
I’m thinking that this might be a difference in how people perceive manliness. Or maybe it’s a difference in how people value individuality?
I bring up the Japanese culture for this reason, but I also think that Japanese have very defined notions of masculinity. I think in general Korean and Japanese cultures place a greater importance on masculinity than does Chinese culture.
2. Along these same lines, I wonder whether Confucianism emasculates men the way most people think it does. Confucianism is a structure, and men in general like structure and can find masculinity within a structure; look at the military, for example. But maybe it emasculates men since it deprives men of individuality and merit. I think I remember reading how Mao hated Confucianism because he thought he was much more than just a son. He also thought that women should have a say (which you mentioned).
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@big
The questions you raised here are not easy to answer, so I’ll start with easy ones.
What Han Xin and Gou Jian did are not manly, but are very cowardly and humiliating on surface. What that nerdy kids did in Forrest Griffin’s book is manly. We have no difference on manliness here. Han Xin did that because he had bigger ambitions, it was not worthwhile for him to kill that kid. Gou Jian also had greater purpose and higher goals.
In Chinese, we also say 大丈夫能屈能伸，simple translation means real man can stretch and recoil. This and the previous three stories all tell men to be resilient, be patient and enduring when in adversity. We have so many of phrases and stories like this probably because life was generally so hard and suppressive that people needed them to sooth the pain and frustration. In reality, it also give people the excuses to be coward, to suck up and to recoil.
I remember Clinton in his memoir told a similar story. He was hit on face by a big guy for no reason when he was in high school, he looked at the guy and his friend, knew that he couldn’t fight them, so he did nothing, this events let him know that he can take a hit, later he and that guy became friends.
For manliness, we say “士可杀，不可辱”， means “intellectual” can be killed, not be humiliated. This “intellectual” in today we often means real man. Mencius said “贫贱不能移、富贵不能淫、威武不能屈，此之为大丈夫也”，which means real man won’t change under poverty, won’t be corrupted or indulged by wealth and power, won’t bow down to force.
What you saw on Japanese TV probably are happened a lot in real life in Japan. I’ve read Chinese newspaper reports that manufactures set up by Korean, and people from Taiwan and Japanese, sometimes make worker kneel down for the mistakes they made. Kneel down to apologize, to beg for forgiveness was common in China before, Communist changed that.
Your questions regarding individualism, Confucianism and Mao is harder to answer. I’ll try to do that when I have time later.
To understand China, you cannot compare today’s US with today’s China. Like I said before, 100 years ago, China was as dark as Middle ages in the West, if not darker. Long suppressive society had big effect on people and their thinking. The difference between China and the US is not only east vs. west, but also tradition vs. modern. If my understanding of the West not wrong, the Renaissance is the starting point of modernization of the West, right? It’s more than 600 years. Qing Dynasty was probably the darkest time in Chinese history. Chinese version of Renaissance probably started around 100 years ago, different people using difference events as the symbol of starting point in that period. So people in China 100 years ago were probably more similar to westerners 600 years ago, we progressed so much in 100 years, we still have long way to go. Mao’s three world theory in some sense is right. China is a developing country, not only means it economics, but also its culture and values.
ChineseMom,
I guess that does make sense. And speaking of the Japanese men kneeling, that usually takes place midway through a drama series. In other words, the show doesn’t end with the main character on his knees. He always has to find someone to stand up by the end! So maybe it is the same or similar. The Chinese quotes you provided are similar–they show that real men sometimes have to endure pain. I like those sayings.
I’m still trying to think on how we describe the manliness difference. Americans and Chinese may perceive manliness along the same lines (I love how we both admire the nerd in Forrest Griffin’s book!), but there is still a difference of some sort. Crawling would be so unmanly in Western culture that it would discount a man’s ability to become a man later. The UN-manliness of crawling would kill all future attempts to be seen as manly.
Think about George Washington and the cherry tree. The story is completely fake, but standing up and taking responsibility is seen as such a masculine trait that someone felt the need to make it up. If George Washington ever begged or crawled, someone would have to erase it from the history books.
With Clinton’s story, he never crawled or begged, so the situation is a bit different. His story is similar to the scene in the Godfather where Michael allows the Irish cop to beat him. In Western culture, it’s okay not to fight against bad odds; it’s not okay to let someone tell you what to do and to control your person or insult your dignity.
Hmm…maybe it has something to do with the fact that Westerners see traits as innate, while Chinese see traits as something people develop. Chinese parents tell their kids to work hard, while Western parents may be more likely to evaluate their children for what they are naturally suited to do.
Do you think this is it? I imagine it Han Xin’s story would be a great novel since he was able to turn his life around. But I don’t know if Westerners often write novels like this–culturally people tend to see traits as fixed.
Yes, the Renaissance was when Europe turned it around. Europe had scientific methods before then (some of which came from Arab countries), but it wasn’t until the Renaissance that much of that science became practical and dangerous. China could be going through that right now.
Lots of things to think about. I’m still interested in individualism, Confucianism, and Mao.
Some amazingly interesting discussion going on here, and I’m loving the cultural differences Chinese mom is bringing to the table, but I think that manliness is fairly universal – regardless of the reasons that someone feels that their “manliness” is being repressed, or even on a cultural level.
Manliness is a state of mind and action, therefore I think there are lots of potential boxes to check when discussing “being a man” and I think it’s important not to muddy it up with civic, or racial expectations. Both of which can impact other people’s perspective of your “manliness” but neither of which should define it.
I speak from a western perspective, but I think that – for the most part – the definitions I offer are universal:
1) Be clear in your beliefs. The old “know thyself” quote comes to mind here. Through self knowledge, quick decisions on how you feel about something can be made. Use this knowledge to form clear perspectives on the things in life that are important to you. This in and of itself does not define manliness, as it’s good advice for anyone, but it is required for other masculine traits to evolve and express themselves.
2) Be willing to stand up for/by your beliefs, but remain flexible. Real men don’t waffle on their perspectives. They are open to other’s opinions, and certainly allow room to reshape their own opinions, but only with good reason. A lack of this willingness to stand by your beliefs, no matter how small leads a lot of men to frustration with women (“Wow, you like to knit? ME TOO!”). In essence, lying/insincerity about your beliefs is very easy for others to see, and inherently implies a non-masculine weakness and a lack of self belief/self worth. “Know your place!” does not traditionally fit a masculine perception, and if I’m reading it properly speaks directly to some of Chinese Mom’s points.
3) Lead – or at least don’t be afraid to lead. Leadership is a very masculine trait, the self confidence (#2 in a nutshell) required to lead inspires others to believe in you. This doesn’t mean you need to run for congress, or even join the local PTA, but most people would rather follow than lead. You can see this daily – ask some friends to lunch and ask where they’d like to go, see how many will tell you where they want to go (lead) and how many will say “I don’t care, where do you want to go?” (follow). In fact, this is a good place to practice leadership if you find that you frequently fall into the “I don’t care” category. If you do, start practicing your leadership abilities by answering with your opinion when someone says “I don’t care, what do you want to do”. Better still, don’t ask “Where do you want to go?” at all. Speak in statements to your friends “Hey, I was thinking of heading down to that new Indian restaurant for lunch, care to join me?” That’s leadership in a simple everyday example – without coming off as a jerk (which can be a fine line).
4) Be willing to express your emotions in a controlled fashion. Staying in control of your emotions, but possessing a willingness to express them is a manly characteristic. We typically associate this with aggression (which is in and of itself a masculine trait), but it applies equally to our willingness to let a woman know how we feel about her, or to tell our boss when we think they are treating us poorly. Counter to the negative side of #2, It implies self belief and self worth.
5) Be aggressive. Aggressiveness is one of, if not the most masculine of traits. Sadly, it has a fairly negative connotation, but it’s not always a negative expression. For example, the “badass of the week” featured here: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/akaiwa.html is being aggressively compassionate for his wife, mother and fellow man – even at the expense of his own safety. Webster’s defines aggression as: “a forceful action or procedure (as an unprovoked attack) especially when intended to dominate or master.” A man is not afraid to forcefully demonstrate his emotions, feelings or beliefs (which sadly is not always a good thing – but is masculine nonetheless.) and he takes action to support those beliefs if called for.
6) Show no fear. This speaks directly to courage. It’s ok to be afraid, but it’s not masculine to express this to others. A great example of this can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vFUqcoeTvg That sums it up more succinctly than I could ever write it. Clooney is clearly the more masculine of the two men in this exchange, and it’s clear in his confidence, his body language, his readiness to emote his perspective on courage, and flat out in the words he speaks (ok, that someone wrote for him). A lack of PERCEIVED fear is a masculine trait.
7) Be strong. From a biological standpoint, being fit is never a bad thing as it telegraphs a lot of visual masculine traits – not some overdeveloped meathead, but fit is good. This also applies to mental strength – maybe applies even more to mental strength, being strong enough to be willing to make tough decisions and act as a support for those around you is masculine – and especially in order to lead (#3).
I think there are MANY specific examples that may not appear to be expressly outlined above (loyalty to family, friends and loved ones for example, compassion for fellow man, etc.), but I think if you dissect any omitted examples, you’ll likely find one of the above at it’s core either being followed, or ignored to impact one’s perceived masculinity. This is in no way intended to be a “If you possess these traits, you’ll be a good person” list. Clearly there’s a lot of needed traits to temper this list to be a GOOD man (intelligence, wisdom and compassion all come to mind). But a man possessing the above traits will be “manly” as perceived by others.
In summary, a man should be confident, know who he is, what he wants from life, where he is in relation to those goals, where his current path is leading him and he should act accordingly to achieve those goals.
One final note, I think it’s important to recognize that I didn’t list women as any of the factors needed to be “manly”. A woman’s role in your life should play no role in your definition of being a man. She should compliment you, and make you feel like a better man for having her in your life, she should inspire you to greater things, and even help you re-define your goals for your future while she’s in your life. But with or without her, you stand or fall as a man based on who YOU are, not on another persons definition of you, not on society’s preconceived notion of who you are or should be, nor on someone else’s acceptance or rejection of you. You stand or fall as a man based on how you choose to live your life.
Robert,
Why are those traits all masculine? I find a lot of the points you raised to be quite feminine and highly encouraged among women. Be strong; be confident; be a leader; be fearless; show conviction… these are masculine traits now? Please.
TZ, I agree with you that these traits are encouraged to women, but I disagree that they are feminine traits. I think the points you bring up that we encourage in women are masculine traits. We don’t encourage these traits in women so that they fit the stereotype of feminity. We encourage these traits in women so that they are strong, independent individuals that can find easier success in a mostly male dominated world.
Conversely, we encourage men to be compassionate, embracing of their emotions and expressive, but I wouldn’t describe those traits as “masculine” by a traditional definition – no matter how highly encouraged (or valuable!) they are.
I think that it’s arguable that a lack of the points I outlined in a man would yield a relatively “Un-manly” man. I guess my answer regarding “why are those traits masculine?” would be to look at a lack of those qualities in a man and to describe the impression you’d be left with about him.
To be honest, I think there needs to be some femininity in men and visa versa for a person to be well balanced, but in the context of a post on manliness, I’m not delving into deeper individual needs for balance.
Robert,
You jumped in at right time. I just had this feeling yesterday that we need to be clear about what manliness is, here you are today.
I agree with you that manliness is universal. I haven’t seen any difference yet so far . Just it is down on our priority list, specially the aggressiveness part.
I think the most important aspect of manliness is the strength, both mental and physical strength. In the environment when physical strength needed to get food and other resourced, physical part is more valuable. In modern city life where most men don’t need to do that much labor work, mental strength is more important. Your point #1 and your summary are the ways for man to be mentally strong. When a person (both man and woman) really know who he is, what he wants, has a purpose for his life and his doing, he will be naturally strong and not wavering. Your points 2, 3, 4, 6 are more or less the results and nature expressions of mental strength. Aggressiveness is the result of testosterone.
Under the Confucianism, filial piety is the first virtue, children were treated as properties of their parents. A man was his parents’ son, their property, their security for the old age. So man was not allowed to know who he really was, what his purpose for life, could not go after what he wants. This Confucianism really made our man weak. I think this also part of the reason that our society doesn’t value manliness that much. This structure didn’t produce that many manly man and wouldn’t tolerate manly man.
Even though Confucianism is bad for a man to be a manly man in my opinion, I don’t think it was all bad for our society at old time, let me be clear about this.
@big,
I don’t know how much truths in Han Xin and Gou Jian’s stories. These from history books about 2000 years ago. These two are winners in history, so they probably was painted in a more positive way. Han Xin was great military general. When we read this story, we don’t see him as a coward, we see a great man willing to bow down for a purpose (it would be stupid for him to kill that guy with his sword and got himself in trouble), it would need tremendous courage for him to do that in public and get himself humiliated, walk away or involved in a fist fight(but not to kill the guy) would be a lot easier, logical and common. I guess the author of this story may want to paint him as a non ordinary person when he was young.
On the other hand, that nerdy kid in Forrest Griffin’s story acted manly, but he was not necessarily a manly man. A coward may still act manly when cornered.
As I said before, our nation was pretty much brain dead 100 years ago, and this Confucianism made us not to see our children as an individual human beings but properties and security, we also had to struggle to merely survive. Besides, we don’t have as much study and knowledge about human nature as the West. Making kids to work hard is the only way we know for them to have better life. I think both Chinese and Western parents want their kids to have better life. Our differences are on how to get there, we all limited by our ability, experience and knowledge.
Robert,
I agree with you. I think that’s the difference between manliness and masculinity. Masculine is the pure aggressive action. Manliness is the combination of masculine and feminine traits that make a man seem like a man to the people in his culture.
ChineseMom,
If you’re up to it, maybe someday we can do a podcast. I think people would benefit from your wisdom.
Let me know IF you’d like to do this. Haha…maybe you could talk to TZ on podcast. We definitely need this info out there.
Sure, just let me know what to do.
Cool deal!
I probably have to come up with a schedule and test the podcast service (it’s been a while since I used the telephone conference line.) I’ll try to put something together and e-mail you by the end of next week.
@bigWOWO,
Technical question. Can you carry the conference call using skype (free) and record it directly onto hard drive as MP3? Would that be easier than telephone line?
Hey John,
You would think that would work. It makes sense that it should, and since most Skype mics are better than phone mics, you would think it would result in better sound. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work at all. For some reason, the two processes going on at the same time prevent the computer from recording a reliable signal. I’ve read lots of books complaining about this weird technical bar, but no one has yet found a solution other than the double ender, where Skype is used so that people can hear each other, but the sound is recorded from two different computers at the two different locations.
ChineseMom,
I just e-mailed you a podcast itinerary. Looking forward to it!
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