Asian American Masculinity

Li Bai

Thanks to Kobukson for posting this:

Masculinity is a more fundamental concept. There’s a really simple test for it. It’s called the “hand test”. You see, you take your hand, reach between your legs, and if you notice something that feels like a sac with two balls in it, then Nature has ordained that you need to be masculine.

It is clear the discussion has devolved to a point where now we have to define what “masculinity” really is. But that’s part of the bigger problem, isn’t it? No one is clear what it is apart from our bastardized, poop culture understanding of it.

I realize using the word itself can push a few psychic buttons in the Asian-American male psyche. Because the rallying cry in the oppressed Asian American male ethnic studies department is “emasculation”. Emasculation means that your balls have been cut off. By whom? The official dogma states that it is the evil conspiracy of Hollywood, the white male power structure, and Asian women.

I propose that much of this emasculation originates within our own families, communities, and is even self-inflicted.

As is often the case, this topic comes from an IR discussion, and in this case, IR and PUA.  As nottboy says, I’m truly the godfather of PUA; every time I want to leave, people won’t let me.  That being the case, IR continues to be a problem, so let’s talk about what masculinity is.  And per kobukson’s statement, let’s also talk about what emasculation is.

The best book I’ve read on masculinity is a book on raising boys: The Wonder of Boys by Michael Gurian.  In the intro, Gurian talks about Walt Disney’s Pinnochio, masculinity, and how masculinity was co-opted during the cultural changes of the fifties and sixties.  Gurian doesn’t define masculinity in the first few pages, but he talks about what boys need to learn–they need to learn to be brave, truthful, and good.  This is a simple but accurate way of describing what I think masculinity is.  If you’re brave, truthful, and good, you are a man’s man.  A few days ago I described Sherman Alexie’s writing style as being “masculine,” and I think that this definition fits his style.  It’s brave because he doesn’t flinch from important issues, truthful because he speaks truth about life, and good.  This doesn’t mean that feminine is the opposite of brave, truthful, or good; indeed masculinity and femininity are not opposites but rather two parts of a whole.

Within this definition, a man can be brave, truthful, and good in any field he chooses.  You can have a masculine investment banker who thumps his chest and makes millions of dollars a year, but you can also have a masculine writer, a masculine rock star, or a masculine construction worker.  As Gurian says, men need a tribe, and when we all work together and a man finds a place in society where he can be brave, truthful, and good, he finds his manliness, and people typically respect his manliness.

Not everyone is going to be masculine.  Some people simply fall short.  One reason I stopped listening to the PUAs is that I saw sexual harassment, sexual coercion, lying, and all kinds of other behaviors that were not brave, truthful, or good.  People who’ve read my blog for a while know that in my Asian American activism, I came across two local incidents in Portland where Asian American men fabricated lies about being the victims of hate crimes.  The perpetrators of these lies were acting in a way that wasn’t brave, truthful, or good. But that’s life–people come in different flavors.  Not everyone is going to meet the criteria of that masculine ideal.  That’s the way the world is.

The problems come about when we discuss masculinity in a society that doesn’t recognize different kinds of masculinity.  In American society, the default human being is White, and people often rely on stereotypes when thinking of non-White people.  For Asian men, people often don’t recognize masculinity, even when we have it.  In our American society, there is only one young Asian masculinity that gets ample recognition–the rich young businessman or the rich young lawyer who is courageous, truthful, and good–which he demonstrates with his generosity and interactions with others.  Remove the money, and people don’t respect his masculinity.  Indeed, that is why PUAs always advise each other to “demonstrate that you’re a person of value” and to either show how much money you have or how much earning potential you have.  It’s all about the green.  No other form of Asian masculinity gets much respect.  And even then, it’s not perfect sailing for the rich Asian man either because above him at the highest levels, there still exists a hierarchy.  If the rich man has other masculine traits or endeavors, people refuse to recognize them.

This is emasculation.  Not everyone is guilty of it, but the problem is widespread.  It’s a refusal or inability to recognize masculinity or to allow a person’s masculinity to develop in a way that contributes back to society.  It doesn’t help the poor Asian artist, but neither does it help the rich Asian investment banker.  If an Asian woman approaches a rich Asian investment banker and says, “Hey, baby, you got bling, so let’s date,” most likely the rich Asian investment banker will tell her what to do with her search for gold.  More to the point, this discrimination stifles people’s natural abilities and talents.  We don’t achieve what we could as a culture because we only recognize one form of “masculine” power.

So there it is.  Kobukson may be right about it being self-inflicted.  Do you like this definition?  Either way, sound off like a WOWO!

215 thoughts on “Asian American Masculinity

  1. Aight, I’m already having second thoughts. Darth Vader was the most masculine character in Star Wars, but he was not good. Perhaps we could define it as good for your team? Good according to what you profess to believe? He was certainly up front.

  2. While general concepts of masculinity do seem to encompass braveness, boldness, and fearlessness they might do not necessarily include goodness or truthfulness.

    Take for example such fictional badasses as:

    Jules from Pulp Fiction (take any of the badasses from that movie)
    Angel Eyes from The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
    Sonny Corleone and Michael Corleone from The Godfather (contrast them to Fredo)

    None of those are good role models, but I can’t think of many people who would deny that they are masculine men.

    In fact, if you think about the contrast between Fredo and his brothers, the dichotomy falls along the lines of “strength” vs “weakness”, “hardness” vs “softness”. Definitely the concept of dominance factors big time into definitions of masculinity.

    Remember this scene, by the way?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbZEkFLXh9Y

  3. Notty,

    I feel ignorant! I’ve never seen Pulp Fiction or the Good, the Bad, the Ugly. I may be the only one.

    But thanks for referring to the Godfather. I’ve seen that AND I’ve read the book!

    I’ve thought about it, and I think agree with you on goodness. But when it comes to truthfulness, I think there’s an unavoidable truth about life–the more moving parts are involved in a person’s business, the harder it is to be pure.

    What I mean is that it’s easy to be an honest, say, graphic designer. It’s easy to be an honest watch repairman. It’s easy to be an honest engineer. You only have to depend on you.

    It’s harder to be a purely honest mechanic, politician, lawyer, stockbroker, etc. because there are things you can’t control. A politician promises to lower taxes, so what happens when there’s a sudden shortfall that threatens bankruptcy? A stockbroker says he can make you money, and then the stock market crashes. A mechanic says you need a new starter, but when he opens your hood he finds that the timing belt is messing up and will have to charge you for that. Of course competence makes a bit difference here too, but even among the highly competent there is some uncertainty.

    I can only imagine how hard it is to run a crime family. 🙂 Michael had to lie, for example, when he knocked off his brother-in-law Carlo. I think lying is considered acceptable under certain circumstances in a crime family. Maybe?

    So maybe it’s truthfulness within one’s profession or activity?

    I think Fredo was less masculine than Michael or Sonny not based on truthfulness but on courage. He got slapped around by that other crime boss, turned against Michael because he was scared, and almost got Michael killed.

    Also, does dignity play a role in masculinity?

  4. I feel ignorant! I’ve never seen Pulp Fiction or the Good, the Bad, the Ugly. I may be the only one.

    Haha, don’t feel bad. Pulp Fiction is kind of old, and TGTBTU even older. I’m only familiar with them because I like gangster movies and spaghetti westerns. It’s a niche. 🙂

    I’ve thought about it, and I think agree with you on goodness. But when it comes to truthfulness, I think there’s an unavoidable truth about life–the more moving parts are involved in a person’s business, the harder it is to be pure.

    I thought about it, and I want to say it’s something else other than uncertainty. As a mechanic or even (software) engineer, you try to estimate your best if you’re truthful, but it doesn’t mean you’re not truthful if something unexpected happens and you run over your estimate.

    I can only imagine how hard it is to run a crime family. Michael had to lie, for example, when he knocked off his brother-in-law Carlo. I think lying is considered acceptable under certain circumstances in a crime family. Maybe?

    So maybe it’s truthfulness within one’s profession or activity?

    I’ve never been a criminal, but I take a guess that by definition you have to lie at some point. If you get caught, you’re not going to plead guilty. “I didn’t do nothin'”; deny, deny, deny. In that movie, I think that what mattered most was loyalty to your family/crew. Never turn against the family, Fredo. 🙂 That seemed to be the most sacred rule.

    I think Fredo was less masculine than Michael or Sonny not based on truthfulness but on courage. He got slapped around by that other crime boss, turned against Michael because he was scared, and almost got Michael killed.

    Yeah, it was courage and also dominance. Both Michael and Sonny had a tendency to assert themselves even when it meant risk. Fredo kind of submitted to whomever was “stronger”. (I’m don’t want to say that submission is unmasculine, because soldiers submit to their superiors, and I’m not prepared to label them unmasculine).

    Also, does dignity play a role in masculinity?

    If you mean in the sense of “self-respect”, then definitely. If you mean it in the sense of being “noble”, then not necessarily.

    Another side thought–masculinity has nothing to do with “attraction.”

    Yeah, I’d leave sex-appeal out of it for now. That just muddles things.

    So, what do we have so far in the ingredients of base level masculinity**? Braveness/Boldness/Fearlessness/Courage, strength, self-respect. Do you agree that dominance belongs there?

    ** When I say “base level masculinity”, I mean only the concept as it might apply to someone regardless of their physical appearance (ugly, handsome, fat, skinny, fit, tall, short, Asian, Black, White, whatever)and regardless of their moral outlook (good, noble, bad, criminal).

  5. Notty,

    “I thought about it, and I want to say it’s something else other than uncertainty. As a mechanic or even (software) engineer, you try to estimate your best if you’re truthful, but it doesn’t mean you’re not truthful if something unexpected happens and you run over your estimate.”

    Okay, I’m going to derail just a bit, but here’s a question then, an ethics question. Let’s say Jim is a mechanic. Jim goes to mechanic school, does an apprenticeship, but spends MOST of his time smoking weed and going to bars. He does the bare minimum to get his certifications. He knows he can become better, but he just doesn’t care. When people go to him for work, his misdiagnoses a lot because he has no idea what’s going on.

    1. Is he being truthful when people ask his advice if he just doesn’t know (because he doesn’t take the time to educate himself)?
    2. To diagnose a problem, he charges $30 an hour just to open an engine, which is the same rate that Joel, a more competent mechanic down the street, charges. Is this an honest charge?

    Now lets say Frank and Foley are also mechanics, and both put lots of hours into bettering themselves. Frank does lots of business and has lots of experience, while Foley is just hanging on. Because Frank does more business, he knows cars better, and therefore he’s more accurate with his diagnoses.

    3. Is Frank more honest than Foley?

    I don’t know if there’s a right answer, but I think that it becomes hard as the complexity goes up. It’s hard to fix a car, but it’s probably harder to predict an election!

    I think you’re right about lying in a crime family. Every industry has a Code of Ethics, and family seems to be sacred. Lying in order to whack your by-marriage brother-in-law (Carlo) whose actions resulted in your brother (Sonny) being killed is okay. Michael breaks the code by killing Fredo, which is partly where the guilt comes in (“I killed my mother’s son!”). It could be an ethically gray area though, since Fredo unintentionally almost got Michael’s immediate family killed.

    I’m struggling with the truthfulness thing. At some point lying makes someone seem like a wimp–it’s like, “why would you have to lie if you you had faith in your actions?” But this depends a lot on context.

    “So, what do we have so far in the ingredients of base level masculinity**? Braveness/Boldness/Fearlessness/Courage, strength, self-respect. Do you agree that dominance belongs there?
    ** When I say “base level masculinity”, I mean only the concept as it might apply to someone regardless of their physical appearance (ugly, handsome, fat, skinny, fit, tall, short, Asian, Black, White, whatever)and regardless of their moral outlook (good, noble, bad, criminal).

    I like your definition! We’re going to have to define “femininity” at some point. I think self-respect is feminine too.

    I thought about dominance, and I was going to suggest “leadership,” but after thinking about it, I don’t know if either should be a part of masculinity. When Michael was getting the crap kicked out of him by the Irish cop, he wasn’t any less masculine. He was brave and strong. When Sonny was getting murdered by the rival tribe, he wasn’t unmasculine either. Similarly, if your platoon leader tells you to rush the enemy and you do, you would be submitting to him, but you would be showing masculinity.

    I was going to suggest “leadership,” but does anyone think that Mike Tyson is any less masculine than, say, Ben Rothlisberger?

    I’m ready to write off physical appearance. A guy can be considered handsome and metrosexual without necessarily being masculine. And yes, I think morality probably has nothing to do with it. Vader was a scary, masculine dude.

  6. J,

    You were doing OK until you started talking about the book on raising boys and spent the rest of your post overly conflating masculinity with morality.

    Here, I do not contemplate masculinity in a vacuum for its own sake but in terms of its relevance to relationship dynamics between men and women.

    Let’s take a simple example: in a given social context, if you were put into a situation where you had a choice between possibly offending a woman or looking like a wimp, which choice will you make?

    Many guys will chose the latter, which is the safe thing to do. Asian-American guys, in particular, due to our upbringing and how we were conditioned to think by our parents and community, are guilty of this. I see it all the time. Ben Franklin once said, “those who would choose safety over liberty deserve neither safety nor liberty.” He was talking about revolution but the same principle applies here.

    Masculinity is under siege in America largely due to structural changes wrought in society through many years of feminism and political correctness. Plain and simple, men are afraid of offending women. They need to be more afraid of looking like wimps.

  7. Kobukson-

    Let me ask you something: What about love?

    Sorry, but I’m gonna be mean about this.
    You’re 38, and you still haven’t figured that out but yet you’re sitting on your high horse talking shit about other Asians. I think you need to stop projecting your own insecurities on other Asian men. I think you’re just angry with yourself, or you’re angry with who you were, and you’re taking it out on other guys who are like you. Hate to break it to you, but most Asian men are either married or dating. I look around and not a single one of my relatives, Asian friends and coworkers is single. And I know a lot of geeks, dorks, and social outcasts. That’s right. There are shy, timid, socially awkward guys out there who still manage to find their special someone and be happy. That makes PUAs pretty much irrelevant.

    But that’s the thing, isn’t it? PUAs need to be relevant. They lower everybody to their level so they have an excuse to behave like douchebags. It’s only at this level that they can compete against people with real talents and personalities. Their worldview do not allow for other personalities that do not fit into archaic definitions of masculinity. You’re not the solution to the problem; you’re a part of it.

    Look, I admit that the whole PUA thing could be useful for certain individuals. And those individuals deserve sympathy and help. I just hope they will one day grow the fuck up and join the rest of us, and not behave like douche bags toward other men who they used be like. Christ, if you’ve been there, then you could at least show some understanding but all I see is scorn and put downs. You’re like the freshman in high school who got picked on and when you turned senior, you start bullying other freshmen because you can’t get over it.

    Put away that bitterness. You’re not going to find happiness by being angry with some poor shy Asian guy who’s done nothing to you. You won’t find it by taking your personal vengeance on some woman who’s done nothing to you.

  8. @ Kobukson:

    Respect for a woman as a person is distinct from fear of offending a woman. You should refrain from telling a female lawyer that all she needs to do is hike up her skirt in front a judge to get her way not because you fear offending her, but because you should respect the intellect, experience, and education she has acquired as a direct result of the feminist movement, and that she isn’t where she is due to exploitation of her sexuality.

    Feminism is not the reason \masculinity is under siege,\ unless a man feels daunted by a woman who is independently whole in her own ideas, opinions, and accomplishments, in which case such a man hardly fits the definition of \masculine.\ If anything, feminism raises the ante on masculinity. Which is harder to do, impressing such a woman previously described or impressing that floozy at the bar who tells you she loves to conversate with you and, um, like what’s going on in Egypt, huh? That’s where the pyramids are, right? Libya, who’s Libya?

  9. Kobu,

    Before I started talking about the book, I hadn’t said much except to quote you. Oh. Okay. I get the joke.

    i pulled back a bit from morality, but I still think masculinity is in part determined by some sort of code. I agree with you that it doesn’t exist in a vacuum, but I don’t know how much relevance it has to dynamics between men and women. It has more to do with one’s relationship to one’s and one’s society’s mission. Let me try again:

    Masculinity is braveness and proactive action towards the fulfillment of one’s and one’s society’s goals.

    It’s a little bit of a judgment call when their are conflicting goals, but I think this definition is worth trying.

    I don’t think it has ANYTHING to do with relationship dynamics between men and women. That’s what PUAs preach, but they’re wrong. I mean, really, does anyone say that Mystery is a bundle of masculine energy? Do you yourself see him this way? Can men really get masculinity from male-female relationship dynamics?

    Sure, if a man is scared to voice his opinion because he fears women, then he wouldn’t be exhibiting masculinity. If he’s scared to voice his opinion in general, he wouldn’t be exhibiting masculinity. But that goes to the bravery issue. It actually has very little to do with relationship dynamics. Wouldn’t you agree?

  10. Notions of masculinity are often distorted in American society. Take for example, the notion of \macho.\ As this and other articles point out (http://family.jrank.org/pages/777/Hispanic-American-Families-Latino-Family-Roles.html), in Mexico, macho has had a different connotation, different from the common American stereotype:

    \In Mexico, however, the word has historically had more positive connotations. A man who was macho was one who engendered respect, and not incidentally, also respect for his family; closely allied to that respect was a sense of dignity and often a forcefulness of personality. Therefore, to be very much a man is to have a forceful, dignified presence (almost in the Latin sense if dignitas), a strong (though not unreasonable) will and sense of purpose, reliability, and courage. These qualities are used in support of, protection of, and defense of the family—this is the ideal. Machismo in such a man can be a loving, certainly caring, trait and certainly need not be expressed through sexual conquests; a man could be muy macho and faithful to his wife.\

  11. Leon, I only have a small disagreement on what you said and its the point about PUA being helpful for some people.

    I disagree strongly with that. PUA is in fact very dysfunctional, and more dysfunctional than you can even surmise just by reading or observing from afar.

    If a guy has problems with women, most often this stems from some underlying reason that’s hindering his efforts with the opposite sex. These guys need expert help from caring professionals to find out what it is that’s holding them back, and the causes could be many. Past trauma, low self-esteem, social anxiety, a lack of social skills, an abusive workplace or living environment, sexual inhibition or even abuse, maybe even Aspergers, these are some of the things that many men may have. In many cases fixing these root problems not only improves the quality of that man’s life but also makes it infinitesimally easier to connect with women. (Including the sex, since this is what PUAs are so bothered about) After that diagnosis is made they should be given good, conscientous and NON-HARMFUL advice.

    Once this is done even the most basic advice yields good dividends. Advice such as being comfortable with women, taking care of your of your health and vitality, dressing well, conversational skills and wit, some passions and purposes in life, having fun at parties and other venues, some simple ways to initiate a conversation and ignite a few sparks with a girl, what female behavior is cool, what female behavior is not, what behavior spells DANGER etc. In short none of that complicated bullshit you see polluting PUA discussions and thoughts.

    The problem with PUA is that it does not address these issues that a man may be dealing with. PUA offers a one-size-fits-all solution because that’s what the gurus need to sell in order to become marketable and acceptable: the idea that one method or way will be suitable for all men.

    For the people that REALLY need it, how does it help them to find out where they’re coming from and what they’re dealing with?

    How does this help men learn more about themselves or the world around them?

    How can it heal injuries? HOW CAN IT BUILD STRENGTH OR POWER?

    Let’s not talk about major level problems and trauma, PUA does not even begin to address properly the hurts and anxieties that NORMAL men will go through in their lives. In fact much of PUA discourse is specifically designed to AMPLIFY a man’s anxieties and sense of hurt in order to further radicalize him into PUA dogma.

    Sometimes you will see a woman who is not a PUA trainer who approves of PUA. This is rare because most women are instinctually REPULSED by the tenets of PUA. This woman who approves most probably knows an otherwise good man whose life would be improved with some very basic, positive advice and guidance on how to do the courtship dance. This woman is naive, she does not know the true depths and dark psyche in the black heart of PUA.

    PUA is a problem of blind men, stupid men, and sick men. When a person’s eyes are opened, when he becomes WISE, when he has healed, this is when a person will understand PUA for what it is. PUA becomes to him not like a medicine, but an opportunistic disease in itself, like impetigo spreading out from a scratch, like all the symptoms of AIDS sprouting from HIV.

    Sadly, not many people have the ability to do so. People after all, do not act contrary to their own natures.

  12. @Raquel

    I’m no expert on the topic, but that sounds a lot more convincing than the PUA appreciators had put forward and especially all that Darwin BS.

  13. I don’t know if there’s a right answer, but I think that it becomes hard as the complexity goes up. It’s hard to fix a car, but it’s probably harder to predict an election!

    Ah, I think see your point. It does become harder to be truthful, or rather accurate. I still have a hard time seeing how complexity makes a person intentionally dishonest, however. Not sure if that’s part of what you were saying or if I just misunderstood you.

    Do you have a link for this topic? I’d like to read up a bit!

    I think you’re right about lying in a crime family. Every industry has a Code of Ethics, and family seems to be sacred. Lying in order to whack your by-marriage brother-in-law (Carlo) whose actions resulted in your brother (Sonny) being killed is okay. Michael breaks the code by killing Fredo, which is partly where the guilt comes in (“I killed my mother’s son!”). It could be an ethically gray area though, since Fredo unintentionally almost got Michael’s immediate family killed.
    I’m struggling with the truthfulness thing. At some point lying makes someone seem like a wimp–it’s like, “why would you have to lie if you you had faith in your actions?” But this depends a lot on context.

    I agree with you. You had me struggling too, because I agree with you that sometimes lying makes someone look like a wimp. Could it be because there is a strong distate for certain lies? Getting caught cheating at cards, making crap up a la Steven Seagal, lying about weapons of mass destruction, etc. Getting caught in a lie can certainly make a person a persona-non-grata depending on the lie.

    Then again, I’m not necessarily sure that it always would lessen someone’s masculinity. Pick any married manly man athlete you can think of. Does cheating on his wife make him less masculine? Maybe it’s just that getting caught in a lie only lessens a person’s masculinity when the lie was hiding a lack of masculinity in the first place (i.e. bullies who back down when you stand up to them).

    I’m still open to being convinced on truthfulness, by the way.

    I like your definition! We’re going to have to define “femininity” at some point. I think self-respect is feminine too.

    Yeah, I agree that self-respect applies to women too. There’s this sense, however, that the word is applied to mean different things for the sexes.

    I’d give a shot at defining it, with all my biases and misconceptions, but I’d prefer to listen to women define it.:)

    I thought about dominance, and I was going to suggest “leadership,” but after thinking about it, I don’t know if either should be a part of masculinity. When Michael was getting the crap kicked out of him by the Irish cop, he wasn’t any less masculine. He was brave and strong. When Sonny was getting murdered by the rival tribe, he wasn’t unmasculine either. Similarly, if your platoon leader tells you to rush the enemy and you do, you would be submitting to him, but you would be showing masculinity.

    You’re right. It’s courage.

    I’m also thinking of the Ghandi movie. The first protest in South Africa, and the protest at the salt works.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNmJqRV7LOA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XarpddX1BI&feature=related

    That was hella brave, and they didn’t even fight back with violence. They don’t lose any masculinity points at all, in my view. Yet notice, how they didn’t run away from enduring violence.

    Can you think of any man as “masculine” if he backed down from an “affront” or from a “reasonable” physical threat? Like, yeah, running away from a guy with a gun is one thing. On the other hand, backing from someone like Brock Lesnar, even if you are 5’7″ like me, with no MMA training, will still unreasonably put your masculinity in question.

    The point is that at some point, as a male, you have to be willing to face physical danger in a way that females are not expected to. There’s something about being “masculine” that is intrinsically tied to violence and dominance. What do you think?

    I was going to suggest “leadership,” but does anyone think that Mike Tyson is any less masculine than, say, Ben Rothlisberger?

    Yeah, kind of relates to what I just said above. It’s hard to step up to a Mike Tyson in his prime (or a Mike Tyson now) and tell him he’s unmasculine, unless you happen to be able to enforce your will over him either through intimidation or an actual can of whoopass. It would take a “real man”, in most people’s minds, to do that. 🙂 I think this is one of the features (or problems, depending on how you look at it) with how “masculinity” is popularly viewed.

    The one thing you could say Ben Rothlisberger and Tyson have in common is perhaps “assertiveness” in different contexts. I think it conveys what I want to say better than “dominance”.

    Masculinity is braveness and proactive action towards the fulfillment of one’s and one’s society’s goals.

    I like the definition. I would only change one part to “fullfillment of one’s OR one’s society’s goals.” Maybe it’s just a western thing, but there are plenty of tales of the selfish mercenary who is into it only for the money.

    I’d also want to address the question of violence irt braveness. I can’t think of a single major culture that doesn’t lionize its warriors and their prowess.Scholars are respected, but there’s a tendency to show them as “weak” men unless they happen to be Indiana Jones or happen to be played by Rusell Crowe (barf).

  14. Raguel,

    I agree with you in some respects. I have sooo much to say about PUA, both in its current state and what it used to be. It makes it hard not to jump in and say something. I’ll try to leave it for the post-PUA thread.

    I will say, though, that it’s high time to look at the dating scene critically. I’ll also say that popular culture needs to put both sexes under a critical microscope, instead of just men or \loose women\ (when they’re looked at at all).

  15. @ kobukson:

    Masculinity is under seige?

    Perhaps, but it’s a necessary siege. Several thousands of years of men having it mostly their own way, compared to about 40 years when women have managed to claw a bit back. Besides, traditional masculinity does not really benefit all men. It’s primarily designed to benefit those that fit the alpha stereotype, and excludes plenty of others.

    When men complain about how masculinity is under threat from feminism and political correctness, it sounds eerily parallel to the O’Reillys and Becks of this world complaining about how white culture is under threat from all those minorities who don’t know their place.

  16. Where to begin?

    This discussion is all over the place. It’s getting messy here. I’d like for it to tighten up a bit. Not really interested in discussing masculinity for its own sake, because that’s way too broad. I want to discuss it specifically in relation to the IR disparity and the Asian-American male condition as well as implications for male-female interactions. Please try to stay focused and relevant.

    Leon seems to think that I’m angry and lashing out at other AMs just to make myself feel better. Really?

    I’ll admit that sugar-coating is not one of my strengths but there’s really no nice way to tell someone that they’re fucking up. AMs really need to take a good, hard look at themselves and stop blaming external factors for everything. If this is bruising some fragile egos and upsetting some folks who care more about saving face and protecting the precious “Asian male image” – deal with it. Newsflash: our image is already shit. There’s really not much to “protect”. I’m more interested in pursuing truth. If AMs are fucking up as a group (its a pretty safe bet that we are, lots of times) I want to know about it.

    But that puts me in a distinct minority. Because many cannot handle the ugly truth. I find fellow AMs to be rather hypersensitive. It’s the Small Dick Syndrome. I stopped caring about the AM image a long time ago when I realized that delusional thinking was not getting me anywhere. I find it refreshing and liberating to not get all bent out of shape about the AM image all the time. It’s a huge burden. Caring too much about the AM image tends to make us very whiny and that’s definitely not masculine. It’s like the guy who’s always checking himself out in a mirror…it just ain’t cool. You guys really need to grow a thicker skin because if you can’t even stomach a fellow AM trying to tell you something that maybe you need to hear, you’re definitely not going to be able to handle real, live shit-testing women in the field who truly don’t give a flying fuck about your feelings or issues.

    I do this because I am an AM, who knows A LOT about the bullshit that we all go through. It’s because I give a fuck. This also gives me a right to critique fellow AMs if its necessary. Believe me, its necessary. Every AM should have something like a drill sargeant in his life constantly lighting a fire under his ass.

    One of the things that always impressed me about that famous essay on white privilege was that it was written by a white person. If the same essay had been written by a black or some other non-white person, it’d be very different. Because true objectivity is rare in identity politics. Despite the fact that identity politics is all about blaming something else…basically everything except yourself because your shit never stinks, AMs as a group are not above criticism. But if a non-AM came in pointing out ways in which AMs suck, it’s too easy to write them off as having a hidden agenda and God forbid if its a Asian woman. I notice many bloggers try to salvage the AM image by posting positive examples of famous AMs in the media. And it’s usually a guy doing that too. This always struck me as kinda gay. Lets leave the AM image cheerleading to the ladies, OK? Real men identify problems, come up with solutions to fix them, go out and compete.

    It all started when I first saw that Youtube video of two Asian girls doing a little funny skit about how a Black guy, a White guy, and an Asian guy would try to hit on them. I think many of you saw that also. If someone can find it please post it. Anyway, when I first saw that I was pissed. It felt like a kick in the groin. But later I was like “hey wait a minute…maybe these bitches have a point.” Maybe the reason why I was feeling hurt was because there was some truth to it. If it wasn’t true, then I would just laugh at it and be amused. Come to think of it, this IS how Asian guys often act. We suck at this!

    I want to leave no stone unturned in the quest for truth. IR disparity is directly proportional to AM suckage. It’s not the media, it’s not the pop culture, its not whitey….most of it is because of YOU. It’s Asian women’s passive-aggressive way of telling AMs…you guys suck donkey balls. But this is actually good news. Because if its mostly YOU, you can do something about it. If our condition was mostly influenced by external factors beyond our control, that would really suck. Because

    Many AMs are simply not fit for performance in the dating market. What’s more, many of you are OK with that. The typical Asian American upbringing churns out social retards by the truckloads. You spend years and years in regimented ignorance factories (also known as schools) studying hard about things that really have little bearing on real life and ultimately turns out it was just a massive preparation for you to be a compliant beta cog as a professional indentured servant in a soul-sucking corporate machine that only cares about its bottom-line. During prime years of your life when you really should have been out dating, socializing, and learning to be good with girls, you were home studying calculus because you were gonna be an engineer or whatever someday. Now we’re finding out that the Model Minority rat race had hidden consequences to it. Now, if your life turned out fine according to the Model Minority script…you’re pretty much OK. You’re still likely a social retard but being a doctor or lawyer really helps (not so sure about engineers). Because one of the other side effects of being the Model Minority is that it produces a shit load of girls with extra-strength hypergamy. And there’s always some idiot pointing out some anecdotal evidence in their own lives (hey, me and my friends are doing fine…blah blah blah) as an exception to the rule. Look, I am not denying that there are plenty of picture perfect Asian-American Model Minority dream couples out there. If that’s you, well, fantastic! Well done! Good for you! There’s really nothing for you to see here! Move along. I write mostly for those who fell through the cracks for some reason. If your life story doesn’t match the Model Minority script…you’re kinda fucked. Because in the minds of many hypergamous Asian females, one Asian-American doctor or lawyer who went to the right schools, etc is roughly equivalent to any generic white guy. I kid you not. You know this is true deep in your bones. This is what you have to deal with. And you deal with it…if you’re not curled up in a fetal position in your room sucking on your thumb. You know shit’s not just gonna fall outta the sky and end up in your lap. You know you gotta get out there and hustle. You know that if you want a girl in your life you gotta get out there, despite the many handicaps and baggage being an Asian American man entails, and make shit happen. So many of you, are trying to work with the hand you’re dealt, improve your lot, and see what this thing called Game has to offer. But then you’ve also got this fucking peanut gallery (who also all very conveniently happen to be married or have gf’s and therefore got nothing to worry about) heckling you up and down while offering very little in the way of real solutions aside from cliches and platitudes. A brother just cant catch a break even amongst those who really REALLY ought to know better. You know what? I don’t even know why I bother with this…really.

  17. Raguel- I know I’m backpedaling. I’ve spoken out against the PUA scene before. I’ve eased back on my position a bit because I think for a lot of people like us who grew up with normal experience interacting with the opposite gender, we may take it for granted. I don’t know what it’s like to have a terrible fear of women, or the frustrations with being unable to communicate, or just being painfully shy. I know some pretty timid guys but even they have their own circle of friends.

    You’re probably right, though. Those with serious social problems should go look for professional help, as in the real help that you mentioned. PUAs are not the most healthy or even helpful solution. Especially not with how they regard these unfortunate individuals. Shit, my friend may be shy, but I would never carelessly call him a ‘dickless wonder’ or something to shame him into changing into someone he’s not.

  18. Kobukson- I think your heart is in the right place, but you gotta get your mind out of this PUA shit because it’s distorting your worldview. Seriously, most Asian guys are married or dating and not all of them are model minorities or even in model relationships. The ones who fall through the cracks are the exceptions not the norm. I know plenty of those “social retards” you mention who all found love and doesn’t that matter more than the AM image that you rail against?

    I agree some guys need a good kick in the ass, but that’s where your expectations and mine diverge. A guy could know only one woman in his life intimately, marry the only one he’s ever dated, and raise a family, and will probably never be good with women in general. I’m perfectly OK with that. I’m sure he’s OK with that too and could care less about what others think of him. Are you OK with this? Who’s more worried about the AM image here, you or him?

    To expect every AM to turn into Marlboro man is ridiculous. Not because there’s something inherently wrong with us, but because people simply have different personalities. A lot of guys will never become the bold, ambitious, or good with women, but if they find their love and are happy, then who really gives a fuck that they’re not improving the AM image? These guys find their way on their own, baggage and all, without conforming to what society thinks they should be, and that’s good enough for me.

  19. Leon

    The “dont worry just be happy” mantra just doesn’t do it for me.

    You, Jaewhan et al don’t have to support the students of game if you don’t want to. What really gets my gall is people over-intellectualizing it and what’s more, going out of your way to shit on it. We really don’t need you guys constantly second guessing our motives. If you have nothing good to say then don’t say anything, because many of you just don’t get it and you don’t know jack.

    Personally, I’m old enough to know the difference between what’s douche-bag and what’s not. But I’m young enough that this kind of stuff is still relevant.

    Not every mofo who wants to learn game is a scumbag waiting to happen, OK? Get that through your thick skulls already. All of you. If you’re worried about legions of AMs suddenly getting into game and turning into douchebags overnight (and making the rest of you look bad, cause that’s what this is really about, isn’t it?) – rest assured, that ain’t gonna happen. Most of the guys who sign up for boot-camps chicken out eventually when it comes to actually hitting the field to really apply the theory into practice. Most of the guys who say they’re into game only read, go to seminars, or watch videos but not much else.

    I’ve met many of these guys. They’re normal guys from every race. I was actually surprised that AM representation was rather small when I went to that conference last year. Not every mofo wants to sleep with every woman he can leaving a scorched earth path of broken, shattered hearts in his wake, OK? Get that through your skulls.

    I’d say the majority of the guys looking to get into game are your typical classic beta nice guys who tend to put women on some kind of a pedestal. They are utterly mystified why the shit they do doesn’t work. They want to understand why their previous attempts failed. They want to understand why they often end up in the friend-zone and what to do about it. Shit like that.

    Some of you have a big problem with this because the women are disgusted by it. Women are also disgusted with fart jokes, touching insects, and working in the sewer – all stuff that men have no problems with. So the fuck what? They hate it because it puts them on the defensive because they know it gives men the upper hand over their bullshit. So they try to paint guys who do are losers. No, guys who just sit at home playing video games on a Friday night are losers. It’s no use convincing a woman about it any more than a guy would understand what having a period or getting pregnant is like. There’s just some things that women will never NEVER understand about what a man must do and if you are into game, just keep it to yourself. You don’t think women use game? They are fucking good at it. They are above you like you are above an orangutan. Next time you’re standing in line at the supermarket take a good look at some of the women’s magazines like Cosmo. That shit is all game, the female’s version of it, on plain public display and no one has a problem with it. The double standards and hypocrisy is endless.

  20. Image is very much incredibly important. The problem as I may have mentioned before is that it isn’t just applicable to dating. If you are viewed of as “less of a man” you are barred from leadership positions, you are more vulnerable to violence, and you are ultimately made as less than human. Look at the case of Gerald Ung. You think that YT goober DiDonato and his cohorts would have been likely to threaten to rape/murder his girlfriend if he was black or latino? I remember one time while I was on a bus and this yuppy/ DiDonato-esque “bro” white dude was in the seat across from me and this fat black dude in sweatpants, coke bottle glasses, a head cold, and some kind of Japanese Romance manga sat next him. You could practically hear this white dude’s asshole shut close like a steel door to guard against the impending BLACKman anus plundering. This is the power of image: to make a fat black Mr. Magoo weeaboo into a threatening force.

    Also white men move goalposts on what is and isn’t masculine all the time. See any movie about anything technical like being a scientist, or programming, or whatever and it’s filled with white goobers. Where were all the Asian guys in the Social Network? Oh there were plenty of Asian Women for the Asiaphile YTs to flick their gherkins to that’s for sure. I guess AF’s pop out of the ground like smurfs.

    We are living under a system of oppression. When the U.S. economy collapses into a pile of poo (and hopefully soon) all the soft power directed at us will become hard power. Instead of “evil Chinese professor” commercials you’ll have more and more hate crimes popping off left and right, giving the Asian community the “bloody shirts” necessary to increase in power and solidarity. Even the most clueless of sellouts would see the virtue of having some self respect when it also comes with the benefit of not getting your head smashed in by a YT with a Dolchstoss fueled bloodrage.

    I agree with a lot of what Kobukson wrote although probably not for the same reasons. The Asian Playboy seemed like an alright guy from what he posted on the old MM site but most of PUA is idiotic and vile in my opinion. But that doesn’t mean they still can’t be useful. In guerrilla warfare, the guerrillas would often use tactics to purposefully goad the enemy into committing atrocities. A landmine here, a pungi stick there…the occupation would take out their grievances on the villagers. The villagers would blame the imperialists, not the guerrillas, and then they would help the guerrillas instead. PUA’s are full of some very not nice people, much like guerillas have to be. But I think their badness can still work towards the common good, by being the skirmishers in front of the battle line. They bleed the enemy, they force them from their strong position into one of weakness.

  21. I think Kobukson is confusing his own problems with his own view of how AM’s are seen and losing himself in a never ending circle of analysis to the point he doesnt seem to know who he is anymore. He seems to thrive on this victim complex without doing anything for his own personal situation except endless analysis, and seems quite comfortable in it.

    Re: how Asian men are seen, its about time we stopped looking to YT media for how we ought to be seen and start looking at ourselves.

    Yes IR is fucked but its not going away any time soon and all we can do is make the best of our own short lives and if speaking out for our brothers is the way to go to make a difference, then do that too.

    But its every man for himself. Always has been, always will be. Western women ( of any race) arent going to change their attitude so we shouldnt complain. Just look for our opportunities out there and go for it.

    Less analysis, more action.

    But Kobukson is going to go round and round in circles until he figures this out for himself.

  22. Also white men move goalposts on what is and isn’t masculine all the time. See any movie about anything technical like being a scientist, or programming, or whatever and it’s filled with white goobers. Where were all the Asian guys in the Social Network? Oh there were plenty of Asian Women for the Asiaphile YTs to flick their gherkins to that’s for sure. I guess AF’s pop out of the ground like smurfs.

    I believe it was probably a good thing that there were no AMs in the Social Network. If given a choice between taking a chance on Hollywood’s portrayal of AMs and being invisible, I’d take the latter.

    And I have no idea why AMs should concern themselves about the white man’s sexist portrayals of AFs in the media. Art imitates life. We have no dog in this fight, really.

    I’m an older guy so I really don’t consume much mainstream pop culture and media anymore. I cut cable TV from my home (one less bill to pay) and I don’t go to the cinema anymore. Less noise, more mental clarity.

    We are living under a system of oppression. When the U.S. economy collapses into a pile of poo (and hopefully soon) all the soft power directed at us will become hard power. Instead of “evil Chinese professor” commercials you’ll have more and more hate crimes popping off left and right, giving the Asian community the “bloody shirts” necessary to increase in power and solidarity. Even the most clueless of sellouts would see the virtue of having some self respect when it also comes with the benefit of not getting your head smashed in by a YT with a Dolchstoss fueled bloodrage.

    I’ve always had the what-if theory that if Asians had suffered more persecution in America, similar to what the Blacks and Jews went through, we’d have much more inter-gender solidarity. But the timing of the mass Asian immigration starting in the late 1960s was such that it happened after the Civil Rights Movement, rise of Feminism, in the aftermath of US military involvement in Asia (Japan, Korea, Vietnam). Triple whammy. Furthermore, most of us came of age during the Political Correctness era. The cherry on top. We were force-fed multi-culti bullshit even before we even starting thinking about how to be a unified ethnic group. Of course, the multi-culti bullshit happened completely on whitey’s terms.

    I do think there is something problematic about wanting to see the US turn into a collapsed empire overrun with racist skinheads perpetrating hate crimes on Asians so that we’d have more solidarity. But I do know what you’re talking about.

    I agree with a lot of what Kobukson wrote although probably not for the same reasons. The Asian Playboy seemed like an alright guy from what he posted on the old MM site but most of PUA is idiotic and vile in my opinion. But that doesn’t mean they still can’t be useful.

    Would you mind pointing out exactly what is idiotic and vile?

    In guerrilla warfare, the guerrillas would often use tactics to purposefully goad the enemy into committing atrocities. A landmine here, a pungi stick there…the occupation would take out their grievances on the villagers. The villagers would blame the imperialists, not the guerrillas, and then they would help the guerrillas instead. PUA’s are full of some very not nice people, much like guerillas have to be. But I think their badness can still work towards the common good, by being the skirmishers in front of the battle line. They bleed the enemy, they force them from their strong position into one of weakness.

    OK, the dating marketplace is not exactly the Vietnam War where Asian PUAs are like the Vietcong or something but I get your gist. I prefer to use the analogy of the American Revolutionary War. The game advocates are like the Americans who adapted guerrilla fighting techniques like blending into the environment. While the naysayers are like the British who insisted on outdated conventions like fighting in toy-soldier formations wearing bright red out of some silly notions of “honor”.

  23. Jeff,

    I agree. I think right now in America, men–not just Asian American men but men in general–are trying to define masculinity.

    Raguel,

    Good summary.

  24. Kobu,

    I was going to write earlier, but I was at work, and I think I lost my train of thought.

    All respect and love, but it’s got NOTHING to do with PUAs making us “look bad.” I couldn’t care less about PUA image. It’s such a small blip on the radar screen; so few Asian men do it, and so many people find them repulsive that it’s unlikely to make any kind of dent on “our” image.

    I’m more concerned with:

    1. What can concepts of masculinity teach us? (which is totally unrelated to PUA except when people bring up good topics when discussing PUA), and

    2. truth and what you tell yourself at night about the way things are

    I’ll write more about #1 in my discussion with Notty. As for #2, do you see the contradiction in what you’re saying?

    First, you say that AM are to blame for their own situation. Then you talk about Asian upbringings (which is true). And then you talk about how many Asian women view Asian male doctors and lawyers as equal to any White Joe Smith (which is also true–verified by that Tierney blog). So how are Asian men to blame for this? Do you see the contradiction? It’s blaming the victim, saying it’s the victim’s fault when the evidence you list is outside of the control of the young Asian male.

    Here’s the difference between you and the other PUAs. William the \Better\ Asian Man is a great promoter and front man. I say that in a good way. Even before his bootcamp, he was out there with the Fallout Central podcast, he was a club and music promoter, and he was all over the place. He’s a good speaker, and he knows how to be out in front where everyone sees him. The same with Jerry JT ARF Tran. He’s naturally wired to be out there in people’s faces (I don’t care about what he says he used to be). If you mention the harassment, sexism, or raping that takes place under their watch (and in the case of sexism and harassment, sometimes even by them), they just shrug. They’re not deep thinkers. They don’t care about other people. It’s all about themselves, how much money they can make, and how many goofballs they can recruit as disciples. Hey, I guess it’s a form of diversity, so whatevs.

    You yourself are not like that. You’re a quiet reflective type. You’re probably similar to most of the guys here. It’s not in your nature to be a promoter. Why would you want to be like a chest-thumping PUA, especially when you can’t? Look at the women on this blog. TZ, MamaNabi, Anna, RCR, AG, W–they don’t like pickup artist types. They don’t marry pickup artist types. Their men probably don’t even know what \game\ is. W dated one, but that didn’t last long.

    So why is “game” the answer when only club hoppers without a moral conscience seem to champion it? The funny thing is that they claim to have all this masculinity, but when you press them to TELL THE TRUTH, they bob, weave, and hide as if they’re Superman and you have kryptonite in your back pocket.

    And yes, I’m sure there are normal every day guys who sign up with them. But there are also normal every day guys who fall for Ponzi schemes and buy whole life insurance. It doesn’t mean it’s the smart thing to to do.

    Think of the irony. How many quality women do you know that date PUAs? Some might fall for it, but it’s always temporary. Intellectual women usually go for intellectual men. Is there a single game student who has found the kind of intellectually stimulating women that guys on this blog would find interesting?

    I read your other post about the 40 year old woman with kids. THAT should tell you something. A 38 year old PUA would not date a 40 year old woman with kids. A typical 38 year old PUA goes for 22 year old club groupies who don’t know any better. They need to go after shallow or inexperienced women because it’s EASIER to trick them. You’re looking for substance. They AREN’T.

    In other words, as I was saying above, you and the typical PUA are on different paths. Or you should be on different paths.

    “But then you’ve also got this fucking peanut gallery (who also all very conveniently happen to be married or have gf’s and therefore got nothing to worry about) heckling you up and down while offering very little in the way of real solutions aside from cliches and platitudes.”

    Here it is again. Check out the bottom of this post where I talk about solutions:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/12/the-post-pua-era-of-the-asian-american-blogosphere/

    There is more, but you’ll have to wait until I finish the book (I myself am learning as I’m working on it). I think there is work to be done at the individual level, but to ignore the media isn’t a sustainable solution. You can’t put all the blame on poor Asian men raised in a racist society. If you create an atmosphere where guys are taught to act like chest-thumpers, you’ve lost before you’ve even started.

  25. Notty,

    I wish I had a link to talk about truth and ethics and competency, but unfortunately I don’t. In mortgage banking, they drill and test like crazy in our continuing ed and licensing tests. That’s mostly where I have that background.

    But you actually don’t learn it for real until you actually do the job, where you face all kinds of ethically ambiguous situations.

    If you wanted to learn more, you could apply for a job in my industry. But I’m not sure I’d recommend that in this kind of a market!

    The issue is this: if you hold yourself out as a professional, you’re supposed to be able to tell your customers about which products are the best. But if you don’t know about your products, how can you do that honestly? You’re lying if you claim to know what you don’t. To add more complexity–what if the guy down the street has a product that you don’t carry? Is it your responsibility to know the other guy’s products when someone asks, “Is yours the best product out there?” And in this industry where it’s common for goofballs to come in and out of the industry, what if you know the other guy’s products better than he does? (“He told you that you don’t have to pay early issue, but you do. Wait till you get to closing.”)

    Of course if you don’t know anything about the business, you could always just be honest and say, “Yo, man, I really have no idea what I’m doing.” But are you ethically obligated to disclose that way if you have some idea? Also you might think you know, even if you don’t. It becomes complex!

    So with your input, I think we should perhaps change our definition of “masculinity” and perhaps apply it to actions or decisions rather than people. This could help us to honor the fact that people–myself included–are part masculine AND part feminine. We’re a composite. Here’s what I would say:

    Masculine action is brave and proactive action towards the fulfillment of one’s or one’s society’s explicit main goals.

    If a person exhibits a lot of masculine action, you’d say that that person has a masculine temperament or something like that.

    And I think the “explicit” and “main” part can further help us define masculinity. You wouldn’t say that Michael Corleone’s main goal was to protect Carlo, even if he said he would. His main goal was to protect the family. Michael Jordan’s explicit and main goal wasn’t to be faithful to Juanita; it was to be the greatest basketball player. People have different goals; I think the judgment call is to identify what is “explicit” and “main.”

    Funny story about the Brock Lesnar example. I know someone who ran into Chris Leben at a party. He didn’t know who Chris was, so he asked what Chris did. Chris said, “I’m an Ultimate Fighter.” Guy says, “Bullshit! No way, man! You’re tiny!” Chris says, “Uh, no, that’s what I do.” Guy says, “NOOO!” and laughs. Chris was cool about it.

    So if Chris were to threaten me at a party, I would say that the “masculine” action would be to throw a punch at him and hope to get lucky. Win or lose, I’d demonstrate masculine action by fighting force with force. But with that dude’s chin, even if I hit him square, he’d probably respond by beating the #$% out of me. So that would be the masculine action, but it would also be a dumb thing to do. The better action might be “feminine”: empathize with him, listen to why he’s upset, and diffuse the situation.

    So I’d agree with you on the “violence” thing. That IS the masculine reaction, and a person who possesses that “masculinity” ought to be able to get violent when necessary. Much as I disapprove of violence, sometimes it may be the right response.

    Speaking of masculine vs. feminine, I think it applies in this old post:
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/11/alphas-vs-betas/

    Waka, the small sumo wrestler, was chastised by the Sumo council for essentially not “manning” up in his fighting style. He was too small to drive an opponent backward, and they thought it was unbecoming for a yokozuna to fight the way he did.

  26. Two other thoughts:

    1. In that old post, the “extra pair copulator” is less masculine than the birds who actually fight. That beta bird doesn’t make anything “explicit,” and he’s a sneak. He still succeeds, but not with a “masculine” action.

    2. Lest people see a hierarchy where one does not exist, “feminine” action or decisions can be just as honorable and effective. One of the reasons these PUAs keep punching themselves out is that they lack empathy, which is a feminine ability. They can’t feel what others are feeling.

    3. Guys can take feminine action, and women can take masculine action. The issue for Asians is that the mainstream recognizes the feminine in both men and women but doesn’t recognize the masculine in men. It may over-recognize the feminine in Asian women.

  27. It is highly unfortunate, J, that your first impressions of the PUA world was shaped by what you describe as bad characters. It seems to have clouded your thinking and biased your view of the PUA community as a whole to the point where you seem more eager to cast doubt, skepticism, and suspicions upon its practitioners rather than objectively evaluating the merits of Game itself and how it may serve the interests of socially hapless AMs. There are PUAs and so-called gurus or coaches, more than a few who are likely unscrupulous because they are after all business minded people. Then there is Game itself. Or the Laws of Attraction, if you will. I am not promoting bootcamps or a particular coach or anything like that. What I am saying is that Game works, it is highly worthwhile for single AMs to become good at it, and it is retarded to dismiss Game simply because of guys like William or Tran.
    Some of you saw the new Karate Kid movie, the one with Will Smith’s son in it. There was an evil karate master who was teaching his disciples to use their martial arts skills in unethical ways. Are you going to tell the world that martial arts is to be avoided because of such evil teachers? No, because martial arts is not evil in and of itself. It is only evil if it is used for evil motives. Its exactly the same with Game. Is this really that difficult to comprehend? Game is like the martial arts of opposite sex attraction.
    All this debate about the pro and con of Game reminds me of a parallel situation that occurred during Ming China. Some of you are aware of Admiral Zheng He and his treasure ship armada. Long before the Europeans, China possessed advanced shipbuilding know-how, celestial navigation, and long distance ocean-worthy ships far advanced of anything the world had seen. China was poised to be a world superpower but what happened? There was a political conflict between the explorers who wanted to expand shipbuilding, making contacts with foreign lands thereby expanding China’s influence, and commerce. The ultra-conservative Confucian scholar-bureaucrats, on the other hand, were bitterly opposed to this. They regarded this as wasteful extravagance and against the principles of proper Confucian ethics. The naysayers won the conflict, the voyages were scrapped, ships destroyed, and nearly all records of Zheng He’s exploits were burnt. Imagine how differently world history may have played out if this had not happen. Instead, China became inward-looking, doomed herself to steady decline in power over the next 500 years, and practically handed the Age of Exploration on a silver platter to the Europeans.
    The past teaches us lessons that are still relevant today. Historically Asians made tragic mistakes whose effects are still felt to this day when they choose to be conservative, inward looking, not open to new ideas, unadventurous for fear of whatever, closed-minded.
    In a way, you are choosing safety over liberty. That is definitely not masculine.

  28. If we’re not talking about masculinity as a social construct, but masculinity in the mentality of an individual himself.

    Then every guy is masculine.

    The only guys that are not masculine are the ones that think they are not – (which could be the a result of the image of masculinity as a social construct that’s throw onto them).

    I’m sure most people will laugh if I say that I think I’m as masculine as say…Brad Pitt. But the only reasons they can challenge/throw at me will be their perception of masculinity, which is most likely a product of social construct created by the media.

    For example, why do men have to be brave and not women (and we all know most of women are fairly brave)? Is it really something that’s ingrained in our xy chromosones? Or is it the fact that we can brainwashed into thinking that men have to be brave via literature, movies, TV, parents, peer-pressure or all of these factors combined?

  29. I’m quoting the below from another forum:

    “I know this issue has been talked about a lot. The one of seeing more Asian women dating out of their race than Asian men but I don’t think anyone has put into numbers this particular problem. Many if not most Asian guys will be ok and eventually find someone Asian or not to marry. But unlike any other ethnic group in America, a substantial number of us are in essence being filtered out or bred out if you will. I researched this stuff myself and I was astounded by the numbers. To put this into perspective, take a look at this chart from the PEW Research Center

    Basically, 4 out of 10 Asian American women will marry out while only 2 out of 10 Asian American men will do the same. This implies that 6 out of those 10 women left will marry an Asian man. The problem however is that there are 2 Asian males left who have to stay single and alone because they have no one to marry. In contrast whites and latinos are 1:1 on interracial marriage ratios, which is the the perfect equilibrium. Then there are African Americans, where about 1 out of 10 women will stay unmarried because their men are marrying out. But unlike men, women are able to have children without having a husband and in a way it is not uncommon to see single mothers in this group for the lack of men. But in our case, Asian men must either find a wife outside the US or face childlessness and loneliness.

    To put this into numbers, the Asian American population is about 10 million. Of this number, about 2/3 are of 15-65 years of age. So about 6.6 million AA of which 50% are men. So if there are 3.3 million AA men and a full 20% can not find mates, it translates into an issue that affects 660,000 males in our community. Now where in this world do you have an issue as big as this one but it somehow slips the media (Asian American media included)?? people get all alarmed at 15,000 people dying of AIDS in the US per year. Here we have a situation that translates into 660,000 heritage lines being discontinued but no one has bothered to bring this to light.

    Ten years ago I thought it was unfair that Asian males were being portrayed as asexual. Ten years later, we’ve made some progress but we still have a very long road ahead. And it is my intention to continue to bring awareness of this problem that statistically affects 2 out of 10 guys that will see this post.. think about that.

    For the entire article on the statistics visit:

    http://pewsocialtrends.org/2010/06/04/marrying-out/

  30. @ N:

    Agreed. I think the usual definition of masculinity is partly based on some human genetic imperative, but largely it is a social construction. It’s also a somewhat white-centric kind of social construction, which doesn’t do many favours for Asian men.

    It’s interesting that you mention bravery. In many cases, the way we define bravery is anything but. For many men, being brave equates to “being willing to do stupid stuff” (ie. driving too fast, jumping into a fight) for the approval of one’s peers. Which, when you think about it, isn’t brave at all. As a teenager I smoked (very briefly) just because my friends did, and when they told me to try it I took it as a chance to prove my masculinity. Of course by caving in for the sake of their approval, I was just being a wimp.

    I find that those men who demonstrate the most overtly “masculine” behaviour are usually the ones least comfortable with their own male identity. My worry is that Asian men who seek to be more masculine might just latch on to all the negative aspects to masculinity – agression, insensitivity, and unnecessary competitiveness, for example – rather than the positive ones (which are often less obvious to young people).

    But at the same time, we still have to live in the world we live in. If a heterosexual man cannot live up to the socially defined masculine norm at least to some extent, he will not succeed with the ladies. The key as far as I’m concerned is to have the ability to conform to that stereotype as needed, but to know when to drop all that shit and be true to your soft side.

  31. @N & jaehwan, thx!

    @ Leon, good point about calling other brothers dickless wonders in order to shame them. Even when PUA advocates talk about how not all PUAs are sick and how not all PUA gurus are charlatans, PUA habits like using shaming language (aka “dickless wonder”) creep in. That’s the question PUA advocates DON’T ask: Where did they even learn these things they’re blindly aping from? I guarantee that the term “dickless wonder” started from a dysfunctional PUA guru or some random mentally disturbed FUCKHEAD on an internet forum that nobody would even pay heed to in real life. I also see that roissy’s blog has been linked to once or twice. That blog is the Kaposi’s Sarcoma of the PUA scene. Anything written there becomes aped by legions of malcontent fanboys who have all sorts of beef with anybody not like them.

    @ Kobukson

    As much as you’re defending the idea of PUA and “game”, how involved are you really? How long have you been in the scene? What have you read? How many people have you met and who? What tactics and methods are you now using? How much do you go out and PU now? And what results have you gotten already?

    Please do not tell me that you have written all of this but in fact have only just started skimming the surface in terms of actually being involved.

  32. Doh, I could’ve sworn I posted something here, but its not showing up.

    Anyway, thx guys. I’m only writing all this because I think that Kobukson and others are misrepresenting what PUA is about.

    Kobukson and Asianguy, I have a few questions for you: Just how involved are you in PUA and for how long?

    Please don’t tell me you’ve barely skimmed the surface in terms of actually doing anything and you’re already defending it based on ideology.

  33. P.S I do not understand all this talk about “masculine” and “feminine”, hard side and soft side whatever. It is too complex for me. I suspect that it is also over-complicating things. It sounds like the sort of thinking individuals would do when they’re having a severe identity crisis.

    There is such a huge range and diversity in human traits because that’s what the human species needs to survive population crunches and mass deaths. You should not worry so much, although your success probably depends a lot on your environment.

    Also consider that totally female looking men like that Tokio hotel guy and Justin Bieber have legions of female fans wanting their sperm.

    Just take it easy and do what you want to do and be what you want to be. Nature will sort it all out.

  34. So with your input, I think we should perhaps change our definition of “masculinity” and perhaps apply it to actions or decisions rather than people. This could help us to honor the fact that people–myself included–are part masculine AND part feminine. We’re a composite. Here’s what I would say:

    Masculine action is brave and proactive action towards the fulfillment of one’s or one’s society’s explicit main goals.

    If a person exhibits a lot of masculine action, you’d say that that person has a masculine temperament or something like that.

    And I think the “explicit” and “main” part can further help us define masculinity. You wouldn’t say that Michael Corleone’s main goal was to protect Carlo, even if he said he would. His main goal was to protect the family. Michael Jordan’s explicit and main goal wasn’t to be faithful to Juanita; it was to be the greatest basketball player. People have different goals; I think the judgment call is to identify what is “explicit” and “main.”

    Explicit to himself, as in having a clarity of purpose at any given moment, or explicit to everyone else?

    I kind of like shifting the concept towards masculine/feminine action. However, I can’t escape this feeling that masculinity/femininity is like an energy that’s inside each person. Thus, the action is almost a manifestation of what’s already inside a person. The fact that we all are part masculine and part feminine implies that it’s something within.

    Funny story about the Brock Lesnar example. I know someone who ran into Chris Leben at a party. He didn’t know who Chris was, so he asked what Chris did. Chris said, “I’m an Ultimate Fighter.” Guy says, “Bullshit! No way, man! You’re tiny!” Chris says, “Uh, no, that’s what I do.” Guy says, “NOOO!” and laughs. Chris was cool about it.

    Haha, cool story. Chris Leben is one secure guy. 🙂

    So I’d agree with you on the “violence” thing. That IS the masculine reaction, and a person who possesses that “masculinity” ought to be able to get violent when necessary. Much as I disapprove of violence, sometimes it may be the right response.

    Exactly. Being masculine entails assuming the role of the protector, which means you have to assume risk of violence.

    They had an episode on Perfect Couples (NBC) that opened with each couple in their home in the middle of the night, while they heard a noise that sounded like someone breaking in. It was a really interesting commentary on masculinity and the role of being protector.

    http://www.hulu.com/watch/217068/perfect-couples-perfect-crime#s-p1-so-i0

    ****SPOILER****

    The nutshell of it was that one guy “manned up” as expected (“daddy will take care of it.”), one of the women “manned up” before the guy could do it (and left him feeling emasculated), and the last couple found themselves cowering in a corner in the closet, with the guy “acting like a woman” and screaming at the “thief” to stop toying with them and just end it. The punchline was that there was no break-in in any of the homes. 🙂

    ****SPOILER****

    Speaking of masculine vs. feminine, I think it applies in this old post:
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/11/alphas-vs-betas/

    Waka, the small sumo wrestler, was chastised by the Sumo council for essentially not “manning” up in his fighting style. He was too small to drive an opponent backward, and they thought it was unbecoming for a yokozuna to fight the way he did.

    He’s a smart dude. It’s kind of like this Puerto Rican boxer from the 80’s named Hector “Macho” Camacho. Almost everyone I knew kinda hated him both because he was a loudmouth, and he was always on his “bycicle” while fighting. Still, he was pretty good at evading punches and hitting angles…until he had to fight Julio Cesar Chavez, who hit him even inside his hair. 🙂

    I can’t find a link for htis, but this all reminds me of a story in an anthropology book that described how a weaker ape (or was it a monkey pack, I can’t remember) actually gained dominance over the “true” alphas by outsmarting them. The weaker dude found two cans (not sure where the habitat was) and everytime an alpha would challenge him, he would knock them together to make noise which made the alphas back away. Doesn’t do anything to dispel the notion of “All brawn, no brain”, ha.

    Two other thoughts:

    1. In that old post, the “extra pair copulator” is less masculine than the birds who actually fight. That beta bird doesn’t make anything “explicit,” and he’s a sneak. He still succeeds, but not with a “masculine” action.

    Yes, agreed. But at least in Latin culture, (including Italy and Spain) the cuckholded man’s manhood kinda takes a hit from that too. In the islands back home, you see “passion murders” all the time in the yellow press because of that. It’s somethign I see a lot less of in Anglo culture.

    It also reminds me of a story about a Yanomamo tribe where the leader basically reminded another guy (I forget what the altercation was about) that he had taken his wife behind a hut, and what was he gonna do about it? The guy put his fighting stick down, and went back to his hammock like a beaten down man– according to the account.

    This is where sexuality and virility and all that stuff kind of start to come in. I am still not sure, though, that it’s necessarily part of a baseline concept of masculinity. In Hispanic-Caribbean culture at least, this sort of stuff does weight heavily because you’re expected to be virile in a playerish sort of way.

    Anyway, the whole thing also points to the issue of “dominance.” The extra pair copulator is probably not able to face the more “dominant” male head on, so he has to go for another strategy.

    I don’t want to get into this too much right now, but notice that the female still goes for the “weaker” male. 🙂 She doesn’t need to be forced. That’s female agency at work (it takes two to tango).

    2. Lest people see a hierarchy where one does not exist, “feminine” action or decisions can be just as honorable and effective. One of the reasons these PUAs keep punching themselves out is that they lack empathy, which is a feminine ability. They can’t feel what others are feeling.

    I think that the way a lot of people think about it, is almost in terms of quantity. It’s like you can’t have “too much” femininity in you or you’re suspect or “soft”.

    I do agree on empathy. It’s underrated.

    3. Guys can take feminine action, and women can take masculine action. The issue for Asians is that the mainstream recognizes the feminine in both men and women but doesn’t recognize the masculine in men. It may over-recognize the feminine in Asian women.

    I think that when it remembers to recognize it, it’s only in the limited context of the protector– but then it denies the sexual aspect. Asian guys are pretty much being objectified into asexual protectors (when you get a “positive” spotlight at all).

    As an outsider, I think it may also be a tendency to not recognize Asian men’s proactiveness in “manly man” fields. As an outsider, if all I had to go by were the movies, I’d think that Asian guys mostly were programmers, engineeers, physicists, mathematicians, doctors, etc. Out of all those fields, the only one that gets any real respect in that “manly” sense is being a doctor (maybe because it’s heroic). The rest are considered “nerdy” fields, and nerds get little respect in this society.

    White dudes in those fields suffer the same stigma, but at least they have White privilege, and they are not thought to represent most White males.

    On the other hand, I do think intellectuals are higher on the totem pole. 🙂

    So, do we have a baseline definition now? We’ve kind of left “virility”, and sex appeal to the feminine out of it. I think those do not need to be in the baseline definition, and I would submit the Spartans and the “Bear” movement within the gay community as proof. Someone else already mentioned Justin Bieber, and I think that’s the ultimate proof that something other than “masculinity” is also at work irt sex appeal. 🙂

    The guys have rightly brought up that masculinity as a concept is problematic and not very inclusive. I do agree with Eurasian (or was it N) that oftentimes men are encouraged to act in a dumb way. Irt to violence, I agree, but I think you can distinguish between being masculine at the core, and being macho which I think it’s something additional (and sometimes hides a lack of masculinity in the facade of bravado).

  35. Asianguy,

    Good find. That was written by Rick Lee:

    http://minoritymilitant.blogspot.com/2010/07/interracial.html

    Kobukson,

    I’m not understanding either the Zheng He or the martial arts analogy. In the Zheng He analogy, you’re talking about extravagance–something that it cool but maybe not necessary, kind of like the way some Americans balked at having to pay for Kennedy’s space exploration. PUA’s not cool. It’s tacky-looking.

    In the martial arts analogy, you’re talking about effectiveness. In terms of attracting quality women, PUA, unlike karate, doesn’t work. For example, none of the attached women here have SOs who use PUA, and none of the attached men use it. Do you know any quality women in long term relationships with guys who practiced “Game?” On a side note, I love how in The Game Strauss always says that one guy sarged one famous actress or another, but none actually ever date these actresses. It reminds me of those old martial arts Han Foo Wa ads that boasted how they’d teach you to disarm a guy with a knife with just a parry and kick.

    “Historically Asians made tragic mistakes whose effects are still felt to this day when they choose to be conservative, inward looking, not open to new ideas, unadventurous for fear of whatever, closed-minded.”

    Kobu, this is what the PUAs teach, but as is usual with their scare tactics and shaming techniques, it’s not true! At least not these days. Especially for you and me, why would our parents/grandparents/great grandparents come to this country if they were inward looking and not open to new ideas?

  36. N and Eurasian,

    I see what you’re saying. Hmm…

    Let me adjust the definition once again:

    Masculine action is brave and aggressive action towards the fulfillment of one’s or one’s society’s explicit main goals.

    Not every man would be masculine because of the “explicit” part. I know a few guys, for example, who went trolling for sugar mamas in their younger years so that they wouldn’t have to work in their later years. It’s a smart strategy, but not one that you would call masculine. The differentiator is that they would never say this explicitly to a larger group.

    Aggressiveness is important. I like it better than “proactive” because feminine action can be proactive too. Aggressive means that you’re pushing or throwing something forward. I would submit that masculinity is a social construct, BUT it seems to be universal in it’s definition. The difference is that some cultures push masculinity more than others, and some cultures are more accepting of feminine action in men and masculine action in women.

    Take that sumo example, for ever. In Japan, they’re very accepting of metrosexual guys, guys who wear lipstick, and other kinds of non-masculine behavior. However, sumo wrestlers are supposed to be manly. They’re not supposed to hop backward in every sumo match. It’s not considered masculine. So the Japanese have similar ideas about masculinity; it’s just that they don’t push it the way Americans do.

    Women can be brave too, obviously, but if they’re aggressive and fighting, one could ascribe that to masculine action. It’s what the Chinese might call yang. Similarly if a male listens or empathizes, one might call it feminine action. I also think that there has to be some kind of action if one is to describe something as masculine.

    I do agree that Westerners (and maybe non-Westerners) have a hierarchy in their minds when comparing the two, but maybe that hierarchy shouldn’t be there in all cases.

    Eurasian,

    You’re right about having to live in the world we live in. Even though masculine action often results in stupidity (Bush invading Iraq), I would say that there probably are times where non-masculine behavior–for me, anyway–is unacceptable, maybe because of the society in which we live. For example, if my kid is on the play structure and someone is in his way, he needs to ask the other child to move. Same goes for my daughter. Non-masculine behavior, in this case, is unacceptable to me.

  37. Notty,

    “However, I can’t escape this feeling that masculinity/femininity is like an energy that’s inside each person. Thus, the action is almost a manifestation of what’s already inside a person. The fact that we all are part masculine and part feminine implies that it’s something within.”

    Yes, and I think a lot of it depends on how we’re raised. Like the author of the Wonder of Boys advises, we need to teach boys to use their masculine energy in a constructive way. Some people need to learn how to build up their masculine energy. Especially among minorities where people learn to stoop, it’s sometimes necessary for people to build up the desire for aggressive and brave action.

    Your example of men and women with the noise in the night is a good one (and Olivia Munn! I actually didn’t know she had a show.).

    I don’t think men are necessarily masculine or that women are necessarily feminine, but I think at certain points in our lives we tend to gravitate towards our primal roles. If you or I were married to a female MMA star, we’d probably still go down to check out the noise. It’s just what men are supposed to do. Maybe things would be different if we lived among the Amazons.

    Even today, some fighters use a “feminine” approach to winning fights. Liddell was a big counterstriker, as is Dominick Cruz, as is Lyoto Machida. Ali used a feminine rope a dope technique to take out Foreman. Sometimes it’s the smart thing to do. Of course the “manly” thing is to duke it out, but there’s no point in doing that if it means losing. Of course, though, you need both. Ali was masculine when he needed to be, feminine at other times. Among men, of course, masculinity is prized. That ape who banged the cans may scare away an alpha or two, but it’s not going to win the respect of the other guys if he does it too often (and they know about it)!

    Culturally (as I submitted in my post above to N and Eurasian), I think masculinity seems to be universally defined, but some cultures put a greater emphasis on it than others. Latin culture, as Jeff mentioned, prizes Machismo. I didn’t know about the virility/cuckold thing, but I could see that too if virginity is highly prized within the culture.

    About the “nonmasculine” fields, I think aggressiveness usually takes place in short bursts and is prized based on that short explosiveness, which is something that we’re not known for. Here’s an example:

    Let’s say there’s a stereotypical black drug dealer in a poor neighborhood, and there’s a stereotypical Korean store owner who opens a convenience store in the middle of his hood. Both jobs are extremely dangerous, but the American media will glorify the manliness of the risk that that drug dealer takes when he packs his gun and does drug deals that pull in thousands of dollars per night. The media will make fun of the Korean guy who has a dangerous job but who doesn’t partake in the same aggressive and bold action.

    Both jobs require courage, but one is seen as more masculine than the other. Since these are the stereotypes of the black man and Asian man, one can see how cultural/racial stereotypes might develop.

  38. @raguel “Kobukson and Asianguy, I have a few questions for you: Just how involved are you in PUA and for how long?”

    I’m 27, recent college grad in southern california.
    I’ve never paid for PUA services, because firstly I can’t afford to and secondly I can’t justify spending $1500+ for a bootcamp. I am very curious as to what goes on in a bootcamp though. I wanted to find out which clubs they go to, so that i can kinda see what goes on for free.

    Anyways, I’ve listened to http://www.betterasianman.com podcast. I found it extremely enlightening. I’ve read some PUA literature online, but i find A LOT of it to be overcomplicating stuff and just in general making ppl think like a robot during a social interaction. I’ve watched keys to the vip which i think is much better than “the pick up artist”.
    but if you were to ask me how i became who i am? A lot of it was self reflection and influence of my peers (especially my non-AM peers). although i really credit betterasianmans podcast to helping me out. i learned the ABC’s of attraction. Attract, Buying temperature, & COMFORT. in pua they say “the game is won & lost in comfort”. i realized how true that is. i.e. in the past i could have rapport w/girl. but if i didnt build comfort, shed never call me back or flake out incessantly etc… a few others small stuff, like a few lines.

    but IMO so much of game is improvised, that it has to be adapted & congruent to your own personality.

    Are you guys aware that in the PUA movement, there’s trend for the past 3 yrs moving away from “canned openers” (lines) and towards “natural game”? i.e. you follow a structure using improvised lines.

    IMO, if you come off as a “PUA”, then you’re not a PUA. the ultimate goal of PUA is to come off as a cool dude who genuinely bonds with ppl, but knows what he is doing.

    I’m fairly certain you guys are labeling the entire PUA movement as a bunch of cheesy, inept, malicious, lying nerds who will fail trying whatever it is u think they’re trying to achieve.

    ill try to post more in a few days,

  39. @ Bigwowo:

    Your analogy of the black drug dealer and Korean grocery store owner is an interesting one. Particularly because one (the shopkeeper) is enacting his bravery in a fashion that is societally approved, benefits his family and also provides secondary benefit for the community. The drug dealer’s bravery is primarily in the cause of self-interest, perhaps secondarily for family benefit, but is absolutely destructive to the community and is socially frowned on. Yet, the drug dealer’s masculinity seems more respected. I’d guess that one aspect of masculinity is in the willingness to be a rebel, as in not follow the rules laid down by others. Even though being rebellious is often just another kind of conformity.

  40. If your looking towards the media to show you masculinity you making a sure recipe for failure. Even if you say there is one masculinity in the US and it is white, as a white person I’d say, that is not something I’d want either. Masculinity is best transmitted person to person. As you bring up about the drug dealer and Korean store owner, if the media portrays the drug dealer as more manly, the media is wrong. The may be some real masculine aspects drug dealing, but once you bite down further than the facade its rotten.

    I would say masculinity is 1) one that tries to create some order for others, 2) takes care and protects those who he has responsibility over, 3) actively loves especially those he has responsibility over, and 4) is able to use knowledge and experience to help others as a guide and councilor (and actively tries to continue to learn and uncover his own weak points.) Also I think a man should have some understanding of femininity, and is able to use it himself. To think that being a man is all about violence and chest thumping, well that is best left in the movies. If you read the Art of War, you may come to realize the most important aspects of war and victory don’t happen on the battlefield.

    When it comes to dating there will always be problems. A lot of guys who would actually really make the best boyfriends would be passed over for others that end up being a bunch of cads. After watching the first clip you had of the Tyra Banks show you had up, I thought, any girls that would want to date those guys, I would prefer to not to date.

    As far as Darth Vader being the most masculine in Star Wars, I’d disagree. Vader was a coward when it came down to the heart of the matter. He was seduced by the Dark Side, because he had a fear of losing the things he loved namely his family. No one wants to lose loved ones, but it happens. Life will present you many wounds, but there will always be new people to care for. Vader then went on to show only bad and distorted forms of masculinity. Masculinity was shown by Obi-wan and Yoda when they trained and taught to Luke. In the end when Luke went against his training and lost control when fighting Vader, a sure way to lose oneself to the Dark Side. Luke as a man would rather have died than give himself over to the Dark Side, but did make a plea to his father to save him. Vader was then able to die as happily redeeming himself as a man by saving his son and killing his seducer. All of Vader’s power was a mask for his emasculinity, and was most masculine when he gave it all up.

    To me it also seems like all this “blaming the victim” stuff just seems emasculating itself. Situations happen and bad hands are dealt, but goodness don’t out of weakness give up the control you do have. As one could say, “man up.” There may be no moral economy in the world, there will be many wrongs you’ll never live to see righted if at all. Inside you there is a moral economy, and when you do the wrong or abduct your responsibilities the guilt and shame is liable to crush you. The best thing if you want to keep your resolve is to make sure your right with yourself. Yes, life can knock you down, but its about getting back up. That is what it is to be a man. That is not opposed to being feminine, as a matter it does it in its own way. If you don’t end up with a lot of money, power, or statues, so what. If you cannot attract someone cause of that, is that a person you really want when things go bad? Perhaps any of the females could correct me, but I’m sure to bottom line it they want someone who will really love them, will help teach their children, your children, to respect themselves, and when things get bad you’ll try to scratch out a way to get things under control. If they cannot get that perhaps money and power may come in a lacking second for at least some security. If your shy or nerdy, you may have to break out of your comfort zone to get the ball rolling, but in the end if thats what a female wants you’ve got the blueprint to put the odds in your favor, much less to get the wheat and not the shaft.

  41. I agree very much with Kobu that the emasculation originates within our own families and is self-inflicted to a large degree. More specifically, our big FAIL is that America (media,hollywood etc) ridicule, mock and disrespect us openly and yet we seem incapabable of defending ourselves. I’m pretty sure that AFs consciously, or not, blame us men for not being able to protect them from all of this. By traditional measures, maybe they are right.
    I think many of us now regret our parents’ (particularly our moms’) insistence that we ignore the racial taunts from other kids when we were in grade school. You know, the old sticks and stones thing… If this kind of thing started and ended at grade school, then we might be alright. But this disrespect continues into adulthood; although taking on different forms. Many/most of us has not learned how to deal with this since racism/micro-agressions against us as asians are subtle and we don’t have a solution to combat this this.
    I think traditional psychology suggests that women look to their men to keep them “safe”. If this is the case, clearly AFs feel that a WM is more capable of keeping them safe from social aggressions than does the AM. Ultimately, I think the greater society sees our lack of response as an indication that we asians (men in particular) are too chicken to standup for ourselves and therefore shouldn’t be taken seriously. So from my point of view, having the courage (and the right amount of skill) to stand up for ourselves consistently across our community is the answer. I don’t think all the other aspects of masculinity is as important. After all, a French/european men don’t necessarily come across as overly masculine but they do quite well in society; especially with women.

  42. James I think you hit the nail right on the head.

    I think that this current attempt to “define” masculinity is pointless and a waste of time with no practical use or actual benefit to any person’s life. It’s a lot of mental masturbation over the internet that does not translate to the real world.

    What really needs to be done now is being more active in issues of greater importance.

    E.g: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2010/01/24/racial_bullying_roils_south_philadelphia_school/

    ^ Does anybody have any news how the matter above has been resolved?

  43. Eurasian:

    Good points about rebelliousness, masculinity, and rebelliousness about being another form of conformity. I think you’re right. If you think about it, the job description is the same–both the drug dealer and the grocery store owner are in the business of sales. Both usually carry guns. But one of them is “rebellious,” so it’s seen as more aggressive and masculine.

    Jman,

    I agree about masculinity best being transmitted person to person. The issue today is that media often acts as a third parent. I’m not sure there is any way around this, unfortunately, which is why I keep telling Kobu that the media IS significant.

    “I would say masculinity is 1) one that tries to create some order for others, 2) takes care and protects those who he has responsibility over, 3) actively loves especially those he has responsibility over, and 4) is able to use knowledge and experience to help others as a guide and councilor (and actively tries to continue to learn and uncover his own weak points.)”

    Hmm, interesting. I think #1 is very masculine, but I think #2-#4 are feminine. However, I think #2-#4 are absolutely necessary to what most people think of as a good man. As you said, a man needs an understanding of femininity. Art of War, for example, might be seen as a feminine text because of it’s non-direct fighting style, but it’s required reading in most American strategic military training.

    I saw Darth Vader as being uncontrolled masculinity and was thinking mostly of the original three movies. At that point, he had no family, and he pressed on for his cause because he had decided (I think masculinity is less about reflectiveness than action) that that was the side he was going to work for. For me, it was his “feminine” yearnings to protect his son that saved him. His masculinity was both his greatest strength and greatest weakness.

    James,

    Good points.

    Here’s something I’ve been thinking about since the beginning of this discussion. We talk about eMASCulation. But what about eFEMinization (I don’t know if that’s a word). Maybe Asian men aren’t in touch with their feminine side. That, combined with disempowerment, is a problem. Vader can’t become good unless he steps back to reflect. It goes back to how we deal with disrespect endured over years that you discussed. Women are stereotypically better copers than men; perhaps it’s because they are more in touch with their feminine side than men, who can often be brutish and insensitive? Maybe there is something to be learned there.

  44. “Maybe Asian men aren’t in touch with their feminine side”

    Hmm, from my POV a bit counter-intuitive but definitely something JLC feminists might claim. I’m not sure that this a stereotype against us (although there might be some truth to this). We are always portrayed as gay or metro by the western media. Also, on the occasional times that I have come across non-asian women commenting about their relationships with asian guys are that they say AM are more attentive to their relationships than are WM.

  45. OOPs. I was trying to quote Bigwowo’s comment — Maybe Asian men aren’t in touch with their feminine side–. Is there a way of practicing this html stuff anywhere?

  46. Haha…no problem. I fixed it. It’s the blockquote function:

    http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_blockquote.asp

    Interesting point about Asian men being more attentive to needs. I don’t think I’ve asked this question before to people I know. And yes, it’s definitely something JLC feminists like to throw at Asian men.

    I’m seeing PUA as being a movement that avoids one’s feminine powers. I see the need to build masculine powers, but without the empathy (which is usually what one might associate more with femininity), it causes people to do misguided things.

  47. That ape who banged the cans may scare away an alpha or two, but it’s not going to win the respect of the other guys if he does it too often (and they know about it)!

    I wish I had a link. I don’t remember if my recollection is correct, but I think that eventually one dominant male braved the noise and once it learned there was nothing to hurt him, the jig was up.

    Culturally (as I submitted in my post above to N and Eurasian), I think masculinity seems to be universally defined, but some cultures put a greater emphasis on it than others. Latin culture, as Jeff mentioned, prizes Machismo. I didn’t know about the virility/cuckold thing, but I could see that too if virginity is highly prized within the culture.

    That could be part of it. I’ve always thought of it as more of “are you gonna let that guy diss/wrong you like that?”. More of an affront to your manhood than anything else– and I think it has more to do with women as a posession than anything else.

    Both jobs require courage, but one is seen as more masculine than the other. Since these are the stereotypes of the black man and Asian man, one can see how cultural/racial stereotypes might develop.

    I think that this modern culture tends to glorify gangsters (and cops and soldiers), and $$$. The rebel thing you guys mention (perhaps the underdog thing too).

    Not every man would be masculine because of the “explicit” part. I know a few guys, for example, who went trolling for sugar mamas in their younger years so that they wouldn’t have to work in their later years. It’s a smart strategy, but not one that you would call masculine. The differentiator is that they would never say this explicitly to a larger group.

    I am not feeling the “explicit” part. For me, there are too many examples of mysterious anti-heroes/heroes who seem to have their own hidden goals.

    I think the differentiator with the gigolo example is that they’re perceived as using their soft power– and that they’re flipping the script that society prescribes to men and women.

  48. I’m seeing PUA as being a movement that avoids one’s feminine powers. I see the need to build masculine powers, but without the empathy (which is usually what one might associate more with femininity), it causes people to do misguided things.

    This is factually incorrect. If you look at Ross Jeffrie’s speed seduction, he teaches a couple of NLP concepts called “matching” and “mirroring”.

    http://www.exforsys.com/tutorials/nlp/nlp-perceptual-positions.html
    http://www.articlesbase.com/nlp-hypnosis-articles/neuro-linguistic-programming-nlp-for-self-improvement-perceptual-positions-2830100.html
    http://www.social-engineer.org/newsletter/SocialEngineerNewsletterVol02Is11.htm

    In the last link, it is being used for furthering one’s own goals, but for many clinicians, this stuff is used to gain trust and rapport in order to help people.

    Empathy doesn’t even need to be an emotional thing; it’s enough to have it at a cognitive level. Maybe the word you are aiming for is compassion, which requires empathy, but it’s a step beyond it. Or maybe you mean sympathy?

    http://www.managetrainlearn.com/article/good-listening-makes-for-good-management/

    By the way, if anyone wants to practice their empathy, and experience the feeling that might drive one type of “loser in love” to PUAism, you should read “The Brief and Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao”.

  49. I would disagree about points 2 and 3 being feminine. The feminine counter to point (2) is to take care and nurture. The counter to point (3) would be a more passive love. One difference between males and females is the difference faced when the pee test says positive and says you are pregnant. The male has to make a choice, he has the option to stay or run away. The female has no choice, she and only she has no option but to face the situation. She doesn’t exactly have to will it, but if she is a mature adult she will react with love. I guess perhaps to fill the rest of it out a counter to (1) would be to create a proper environment for others and (4) to use knowledge and experience to share with others.

    I do agree that there are masculine and feminine energies and actions. Both can be expressed by the same person, and to be a complete person you do need to be able to do both. If you take a scientist and a writer, both may have more focus on their disciplines, but both will have to use both disciplines to do what they need to do.

    As far as Darth Vader, the first three help explain the original three since Vader is never really developed in those films. You could say that he was hyper-masculine, but that is still not proper masculinity. As you brought up submission, I think it is a rather masculine thing. Even when a man has no one to submit to, he should submit to nature or God, or in general there are things that are beyond your control. Vader was given so much talent and thought he could fix everything. What he could not do was ultimately protect to the ones he loved from suffering and death. In that he was emasculated. He tried to leverage his talent to power to save his mother and wife. He was asking for a thing that couldn’t be done. In response he killed other peoples mothers, wives, and children. When Vader turned, he his loved one was then the emperor, but that whole relationship was a betrayal. The emperor never intended to give Vader what he promised. Luke was the crux of the matter, and made him unambiguously chose. The choice was not that hard when it was choose the life of your son or your betrayer.

    To bring this back to reality, bad things have commonly been committed by those who have great intentions as in the case of Vader. Bad things have also been committed by those who only had intentions for themselves in the case of the Emperor. When it comes to dating there will be those who will bring the promises that they never intend to keep. Perhaps the break comes during dating, or perhaps it actually comes during marriage. Females can be seduced by promises of security and money, but really what the true aim should be security through actionable love and understanding of the other.

    Now some other guys may in their own right feel emasculated and take the easy way out, and try to just get a female and bed just to get her in bed. That will never leave you satisfied. One shouldn’t look at others who sleep with a lot of others with envy. Look towards yourself and seek to be that proper man. worth loving. It is far harder with few initial rewards, but you’ll get a better reward in the end than some cad.

  50. With respect to the media, in many ways I agree with Kobu, not that I don’t understand your point. I think the most important strategic place of importance is the mature adults that the child looks up to. I can understand a fear of when there is no good parent, that then becomes the parent. I would say that there is only so much one can do to combat that, you do have control over your house. In addition, I think if you do show yourself to be man in front of children, other children will also look towards you. This would be the place you cannot give up.

    Now everyone tends to have certain places where they can specialize in, and you seem to be concerned with the media. After all the media is the one that will tend to glorify the drug dealer and not the shop owner. The shop is important for the community and drugs can be the scourge of it. That you try to do your part to change it, I think is a good thing, but there is only so much you can do. The AM shouldn’t take it silently and give up. I don’t think you can change things into the world you want, on the other hand you can manage to push back and try to give a voice expressing concern for how AM are shown in the media in general and even in the Asian America media. That won’t maculate the emasculated though. That is a choice a man must make for himself.

  51. I haven’t read this entire msg list, but I have to comment on what Kobukson wrote earlier. First, Kobukson, I appreciate all your input. I feel your mindset on this matter is quite similar to mine. I def think PUA is needed to give AM a new image/self-esteem. Bad/good whatever. It can’t be worse than what we have now. AM are too complacent. If they are slightly disgruntled, online blogging they go to vent their problems. We as Asian American Men are fucking up as a whole. Granted there are superstars and those who are great with the opposite sex, but in general I see AM failing in the social setting. Most people can agree to that. We as a group can’t get our act together. “Real men identify problems, come up with solutions to fix them, go out and compete.” I wholeheartedly agree, and we need to become more like this.

    I can go on and on with the IR and whatever that haunts us AM, but I think Kobukson can say it better.

    This quote really struck a cord with me:

    “Because in the minds of many hypergamous Asian females, one Asian-American doctor or lawyer who went to the right schools, etc is roughly equivalent to any generic white guy. I kid you not. You know this is true deep in your bones. This is what you have to deal with.”

    It is so damn true. This is also IMO not only in the minds of Asian females, but females in general. AM have more to prove in general than any other race.

  52. ROFL, all this talk about cultivating “feminine powers” in men seems very gay to me. Consider that now that gender roles have changed so much, why do we still attempt to categorize behavior as “masculine” or “feminine”, especially when people are made to be able to adapt their behavior to the situation?

    Regarding winning a bar fight against a stronger opponent, if I surprised him and hooked my thumb and fingers into his throat to tear his windpipe, does it make me masculine? No, it only makes me a craven murderer. Even if I managed to beat him I would just be a bully who has no way of settling differences except with force. Who respects a man like that in today’s age? Even the berserkers of Norway eventually became pariahs for this sort of behavior.

    Without empathy, how can a man lead? What is so feminine about empathy? What makes it the exclusive domain of womenfolk? Do you imagine that generals and leaders of armies and rebellions had no ability to empathise?

    This is all mental masturbation. On a very fundamental physical, inherited traits such as your build, the tone of your voice and the structure of your face cannot be changed. As a man why the hell would you want to classify your own physical characteristics – which have already been set in stone – and why would you want to label your own behaviors on a micro level to determine what is “masculine” or “feminine”?

    In my humble opinion how you relate to the world and the people around you is far more important than all of this. Definitions are the domain of bookworms and pedants. As long as the people around you respect you as a person, you have the influence to contribute to matters of import to you and women consider you a candidate for sex then it’s all already good.

    I must confess that I am slow in seeing what practical benefit can arise from such discussion, but the matter has been a non-issue to me to begin with. Asian men don’t have a crisis of masculinity, it is that some Asian men have crisis of personality.

    Please forgive my befuddlement and strong opinions.

  53. @Asianguy, thx for the candor. I appreciate that you are not trying to hide something.

    If I may summarise, you are defending the idea of PUA as something of merit, a potential pool of free knowledge that can help men learn how to interact better with women?

    However I believe your flaw is that you are barely involved in it. You have not even stepped foot into it, you haven’t seen what it is like on the ground.

    Everything I have said has come from my own observations and experiences, as well as from others who have been involved in the scene.

    I put it to you that what PUA promises is radically different from what it delivers, and that what it wishes to portray itself as differs radically from what it actually is.

  54. Notty,

    That must’ve looked funny when the can-beater got exposed! Do apes say, “doh?” 🙂

    1. I think anti-heroes have their place, and I think they have their admirers, and I think they often offer admirable traits, but I don’t know if I’d call their actions masculine. Would one say that Holden Caulfield is a masculine ideal? The guy who cries when he gets pushed around? There’s lots one can learn from dropping masculinity, and sometimes they’re great people and characterrs, but wouldn’t you say it’s still dropping masculinity rather than embodying it?

    The reason I say “explicit” is that one might consider one’s actions “masculine” if one stands by one’s words. It’s kinda like they say, “Say it to my face like a man!” (I don’t agree that men are the only ones who talk straight, but I think we can draw the line between masculine and not-masculine.)

    2. Matching and mirroring are sales techniques. There are actually sales classes that teach it. It’s not the same thing as empathy. Let me prove it to you:

    a) NLP stands for neuro-linguistic PROGRAMMING. What does the word “program” imply? It implies that you program someone to act a certain way, and that’s exactly what they teach in these classes.
    b) The end goal is to get what the practitioner wants.
    c) Look at people who need empathy in their work–artists, writers, musicians. Do you ever see them studying NLP? They might go to India to learn the sitar, or study yoga, or spend a week alone in the woods, but NLP never comes up.

    I think empathy DOES have to be emotional:
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empathy

    “: the action of understanding, being aware of, being sensitive to, and vicariously experiencing the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another of either the past or present without having the feelings, thoughts, and experience fully communicated in an objectively explicit manner; also : the capacity for this”

    Women in general will try to get away from a guy who is pure masculinity, so NLP is their way of faking it in order to “program” a person to react a certain way. It’s the same in sales; people try to use NLP to close the deal.

    I’ll check out the Junot Diaz book. I’ve been meaning to read a longer work by him. I read one of his short stories in the New Yorker. I thought it was really good. He’s got empathy! 🙂

  55. Jman and Raguel,

    How’s this–instead of feminine and masculine, can we say yin and yang, respectively? I think the Western terms come with loaded connotations. In the example that Jman brought up about the father who finds out his girlfriend is pregnant, someone might say, “Be a man.” But as I think both Jman and Raguel acknowledge that there is yang AND yin in “being a man.” Being a man implies caring for a family, which requires both hard and soft forces. Similarly, if a mother is confronted with someone attacking her kid, I would hope she would channel her yang and use force if necessary.

    My point is that maybe as Asian men, with respect to both IR and other issues, we need to channel and develop both yin and yang. Sometimes they become one and the same.

    Vader became pure emotional yang in his later years. He was yin when he was in love, along with his angrier self, but in his later years, I thought he was pure forward energy (except when deferring to his boss).

    Raguel in particular,

    That’s exactly what I was trying to tell Asianguy. He hasn’t seen it on the ground, nor has he spoken to these people, so he doesn’t know what it’s really like.

    As far as this discussion, I see it as building knowledge for the conceptual framework of what we’re working with. If you look at racism itself–works by Gobineau, Rushton, etc., as well as analyses of racism by people like Franz Fanon, Edward Said, and even Dinesh D’Souza–it’s highly conceptual. I think it’s good to educate ourselves and learn about the situation on this same level.

    Jman in particular,

    I think we agree on the media. Even if you turn off the TV, the kids at school still talk about Hannah Montana, etc. It finds its way in. It’s pervasive.

    You can’t control the media completely, just like you can’t control your upbringing completely. But you can do what you can do. That’s the point I was trying to make. It’s wrong to blame it ALL on the media, but it’s also wrong to blame it ALL on Asian men. We do what we can do, little by little, in the areas where we can effect change.

  56. Jaehwan you are right, discussing it in terms of yin and yang does seem more appropriate because the meaning is different, and the concept of yin and yang goes beyond the merely sexual also.

    I have never read Gobineau, Rushton and the other names you mentioned. Are their works useful?

    It’s good to know that you have a plan in mind regarding this discussion.

    Cheers 🙂

  57. You guys are on a roll with the ying and yang of masculinity, so I posted my nlp retort here: http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/12/the-post-pua-era-of-the-asian-american-blogosphere/#comment-9598

    It looks to me like you guys have moved on beyond a neutral baseline definition, and are now trying to describe what it is to be a “real man” (beyond a baseline and positive).

    1. I think anti-heroes have their place, and I think they have their admirers, and I think they often offer admirable traits, but I don’t know if I’d call their actions masculine. Would one say that Holden Caulfield is a masculine ideal? The guy who cries when he gets pushed around? There’s lots one can learn from dropping masculinity, and sometimes they’re great people and characterrs, but wouldn’t you say it’s still dropping masculinity rather than embodying it?

    The reason I say “explicit” is that one might consider one’s actions “masculine” if one stands by one’s words. It’s kinda like they say, “Say it to my face like a man!” (I don’t agree that men are the only ones who talk straight, but I think we can draw the line between masculine and not-masculine.)

    I think that the concept of being a man of his word is more of a positive thing, beyond what I would consider a baseline quality.

    When I was thinking of silent anti-heroes, I was thinking more in terms of some action movie archetypes like The Man With No Name– where other characters don’t know what their explicit goals are. I’m thinking of wildcard type of characters.

    A better example might actually be Ray Liotta’s character in Cop Land. You really didn’t know where that guy stood, but I didn’t think he was un-masculine. Unstable? Menacing? yeah.

    It’s like, a masculine guy might not tell anyone about his goals, but you might still be able to see that he has an internal purpose– he is driven.

    Dunno, maybe I’m just being stubborn.

  58. Good luck defining masculinity. Its cultural to some aspect.

    I will throw in a little observation as an Asian living in the West. While growing up in Asia, Western male always came across as feminine … a complex combination of grooming, mannerism, etc. Can’t put my finger on it but know when I see it. Might be (maybe not) hard for Westerners to accept, but Brad Pitt came across as feminine, pretty boy. Too much yin instead of yang in Western men.

  59. @ Kobukson

    As much as you’re defending the idea of PUA and “game”, how involved are you really? How long have you been in the scene? What have you read? How many people have you met and who? What tactics and methods are you now using? How much do you go out and PU now? And what results have you gotten already?

    Please do not tell me that you have written all of this but in fact have only just started skimming the surface in terms of actually being involved?

    Raguel, most of these questions I’ve already answered in a different post even before you asked them. I can’t be bothered to rehash them just your sake.

    But a tree can only be judged by the fruit that it bears, no? So let me tell you this. For the past couple of months, I’ve been dropping game here and there. Planting seeds, if you will. It’s starting to bear fruit. Last month was my birthday. So this past weekend, I got a belated birthday card from with notes written in it by the people within a social circle that I’m part of. Guess what? There was a note written by a girl who wished me a happy birthday and underneath she also wrote in tiny, little letters “Pursue me!” with a smiley face next to it. I hadn’t even been paying much attention to this one because I thought she was too young for me. But she’s definitely cute and you know what, her been young is not bothering me that much anymore. And this is not the only girl who’s given me IOIs. How do you like them apples, huh?

    In terms of Game, I’m just getting warmed up.

    GAME WORKS, MOTHERFUCKERS! IGNORE IT AT YOUR OWN PERIL.

  60. Notty,

    I’m in total agreement! That’s the problem with language–it brings its own prejudices into any discussion. I think Derrida once said something about this, but masculine is always seen as good, while feminine is always seen as bad–at least in the context of most conversations. It’s hard too because men are supposed to conform to being masculine, while women aren’t supposed to act “manly.” It creates a hard and unfair framework in which to talk, especially for women. And really, we’re talking about forces and actions, rather than people.

    I do think that manliness is always positive when someone says, “Be a Man.” And maybe it should be positive whenever an older woman advises a younger girl to be “ladylike.” It’s just that people have always defined “manliness” as “masculinity,” and “ladylike-ness” as femininity, when they really aren’t exactly the same thing. Yin and yang probably are not so much culturally determined as they seem to be similar ideas in most cultures, but masculinity/being a man and femininity/being a woman probably are. If this makes sense… 🙂

    I agree with your assessments on those kinds of heroes. I haven’t seen any of those movies, but what about Matt Damon’s character in Good Will Hunting? He could be masculine because he does what he wants in the short term, even before he knows what he wants in the long term. It’s the hard approach he takes to getting what he wants that make the character masculine.

    Raguel,

    Don’t bother with those writers. It’s pseudoscience.

  61. Do you think she might like you for you and not for your game?

    That is a valid question, Byron. In order to fully appreciate where I’m coming from with this, you have to go back to where I’ve been to understand. You’ve got to retrace my steps.

    I’m gonna just let it all hang out.

    Last year, for months I pursued an attractive, age 39 , church-going, widowed mom with two daughters. One would think that such a woman would be ideal for a man who wants to avoid using Game, right? That’s exactly what I did, I used zero game.

    One of the aspects of Game that convinced me from initial skepticism (yes, I was a skeptic once also) to taking it seriously was its power in explaining clearly what went wrong in past failures.

    It turns out I committed almost all of the cardinal sins of Game.

    Making myself too available…..check.

    Trying to buy her affection with carefully thought-out gifts that she barely acknowledged…..check.

    Letting her be in control and dutifully jumping through her hoops….check.

    Building comfort BEFORE attraction (classic recipe for friend-zone……check.

    Basically being this boring, predictable, harmless, beta-provider, all-around nice guy.

    That is who I am when I am just being myself. “Just be yourself” is the worst advice to give to a guy who is utterly clueless.

    Wait…there’s more!

    Earlier last year, I was introduced to a genuinely hot girl with whom I had a short-lived relationship. Pretty much the same story there. The last thing that happened was that I waited for her at the airport to pick her up with a bunch of flowers as a surprise. A week later, she breaks up with me over email.

    PUA DOES NOT EQUAL GAME. PUA is only a particular interpretation of Game. Let’s get our terminology straight. Not every man needs to be a PUA to have Game but every man needs Game to be successful with the opposite sex. Those of you who are arguing that none of this is necessary, that you and your friends find yourselves in good relationships without having been a PUA are totally missing the point. You DID use game, you just didn’t know it. If you ever jokingly teased a girl that you were interested in….THAT’S GAME. This is ACCIDENTAL GAME, as opposed to FORMAL GAME. Furthermore, you probably only used a tiny fraction of the arsenal of techniques, methods, and structure available in FORMAL GAME.

    I have a 11 year dating/relationship history. I’ve been involved in 9 LTRs during this period, 4 of which I consider significant. As I learn FORMAL GAME, I experience many flashbacks and moments of recognition where I realize that I had been using lots of ACCIDENTAL GAME in the past. I just didn’t know it at the time.

    As to the ongoing debate about the validity of Game, once again I present to you the latest two example of my attempts:

    1. A widowed single mom pushing 40. I use no Game. Result: abject failure.
    2. I’m dropping constant Game. A young, cute nubile girl materializes and sends a major IOI my way.

    Gentlemen of the jury, you do the math.

  62. Kobukson- This…

    Not every man needs to be a PUA to have Game but every man needs Game to be successful with the opposite sex.

    Is probably the most intelligent thing you’ve said on the topic. Makes more sense than telling guys to go out and \punk\ other guys and girls creaming their panties over them which, I’m sorry, but it just made you sound very foolish. You’re better off selling Game than PUA. PUA doesn’t even do a very good job selling itself. You know what I see when I visit one of their sites? Some cheap website with pictures of beautiful women plastered all over the place and large text shouting, \DO YOU WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH THIS WOMAN? GIVE ME MONEY AND I’LL SHOW YOU HOW!\ I get that same stuff from the brochures that guys hand out on the Strip in Vegas.

    Can the PUA agenda hook you up with women? Yeah, it might. Can one also learn this other stuff elsewhere or on their own? Yeah, I’ve seen it happen. So why are you selling PUA so hard?

    Also, what to you qualifies a man’s success with game? Is there a minimum number of relationships or sex with different women that he has to meet on a yearly basis? If a man only knew few few women intimately, but is in a successful long term relationship, does he have game? Or is he a loser? Are married men who have little game (they obviously don’t need to date anymore) also losers?

  63. AM Empowerment said:

    AM have more to prove in general than any other race.

    I do not have a problem with this as long as I have faith that even if I have to work harder than a white guy to achieve the same goal, that I will indeed succeed.

    Our parents taught us that we had to be better than “regular Americans” (they meant white people) in order to get ahead. This is the reason why we have our Model Minority reputation (or notoriety depending on your POV).

    What I propose is that we need to harness this same competitive, do-or-die mentality to other areas of life.

    Our Tiger Moms were the reason why Asian Americans enjoy spectacular representation in higher education. We need a new breed of Tiger Brothers to emerge who will apply the same perfectionist, striving, combative attitude to matters pertaining to our masculinity, which includes proficiency in attracting mates. Asian-American masculinity is a sleeping dragon. It needs to be awakened and that time is long overdue.

    Self-confidence is the hallmark of masculinity. If much about the condition and experience of the Asian-American male seems irrational then the solution lies in being irrationally self-confident. We need more non-conformity and an independent streak in Asian-American malehood.

    The ideal Asian-American Man rejects the brotherhood-of-failure syndrome of the Department of Asian-American Males as a Whiny, Oppressed Ethnic Studies which constantly seeks to find blame for his miserable condition in external factors such as mainstream media and the abstract, ambiguous, ill-defined white male power structure rather than himself. I believe that AM mediocrity has more to do with our problems than how Hollywood depicts us. I also believe that the ideal AA man will confront his own mediocrity without flinching rather than assume the Ostrich head-stuck-in-the-sand position.

    The ideal Asian-American man knows the proper place for both pride and humility. We need to be humble to new ideas for the sake of empowerment and be willing to subject himself to the discipline of self-betterment, even if this means we have to initially acknowledge our culpability in our own failures, which is a painful thing to. The loser is too prideful to even begin to contemplate this and will comfort himself with false assurances that there is nothing wrong with himself. He may even have to let go of “friends” who are being persistent losers.

    The ideal Asian-American man never uses his Asian-ness as an excuse for failure; he conceives of himself as a universal man. His race is merely a factor, whether it is positive or negative, to be included in his strategy and used positively whenever possible. He may even know how to turn a disadvantage into a strength.

    The ideal Asian-American man strives for emotional self-mastery, state-control and recognizes that it is an important component of what is known as “inner-game”.

    The ideal Asian-American man laughs in the face of countless Asian-American bitches who ever dared to utter the words “I don’t date Asian guys”. He recognizes this as just another kind of a shit-test, which all women do, and makes it his goal to subject her and have her yield to his unrelenting masculinity, and subject to his vigorous, meaty intrusions, a woman who once uttered the words “I don’t date Asian guys.” The IR disparity inspires a combative, competitive spirit in the ideal Asian-American man, like an outnumbered Samurai warrior who smirks in the face of his formidable enemy, only caring about how much more glory he will achieve when he emerges victorious precisely because of and despite the odds stacked against him. He is unlike his demoralized, cowardly brothers who seek comfort and safety over risks, who are only too willing to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

    The Asian-American man needs to be twice as sharp as the white dude. If we use our minds effectively, we can fix our problems. Game is the application of mind-power to the art of attraction, just as martial arts is mind-power applied to physical combat.

  64. Kobu:

    “Making myself too available…..check.
    Trying to buy her affection with carefully thought-out gifts that she barely acknowledged…..check.
    Letting her be in control and dutifully jumping through her hoops….check.
    Building comfort BEFORE attraction (classic recipe for friend-zone……check.
    Basically being this boring, predictable, harmless, beta-provider, all-around nice guy.
    That is who I am when I am just being myself. “Just be yourself” is the worst advice to give to a guy who is utterly clueless.

    Alright, I see what you’re saying. You’re basically saying that you weren’t as upfront with her as you should have been?

    In that case, here’s a good book I’d recommend: No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover:
    http://www.nomoremrniceguy.com/

    You can check out the site to see if it would be of interest to you. I think it would. If you define “how to talk to women” as “Game,” I suppose that’s your right, but I don’t think it’s as complicated as that. It may be as simple as serving your own needs at the same time as hers. I agree that men should probably take control at first, and you should definitely build attraction before comfort. But I also think it’s nice that you bought her gifts and made yourself available. That’s just you. That’s your yin power. To lose that is to lose a big part of yourself.

    “1. A widowed single mom pushing 40. I use no Game. Result: abject failure.
2. I’m dropping constant Game. A young, cute nubile girl materializes and sends a major IOI my way.
    Gentlemen of the jury, you do the math.

    How old is the young, cute nubile girl? Because if I do the math, 39 is a lot closer to 38, and you might have more in common with someone in that age group, if you’re looking long term. Now I don’t know either of these two women, but I’m guessing that the 39 year old was quite attractive too. I don’t know the background story on that, but maybe it’s just a case of being the “nice guy” and not looking out for yourself at first. Or maybe it’s just a case that she wasn’t the right one? Or maybe her personality didn’t match what you thought she was?

    “The ideal Asian-American man laughs in the face of countless Asian-American bitches who ever dared to utter the words “I don’t date Asian guys”.  He recognizes this as just another kind of a shit-test, which all women do, and makes it his goal to subject her and have her yield to his unrelenting masculinity, and subject to his vigorous, meaty intrusions, a woman who once uttered the words “I don’t date Asian guys.”” 

    Hookay….time for me to duck into the bomb shelter…

  65. * how do u italicise the text?*

    Mr. Kobu:
    “Making myself too available…..check.
    Trying to buy her affection with carefully thought-out gifts that she barely acknowledged…..check.
    Letting her be in control and dutifully jumping through her hoops….check.
    Building comfort BEFORE attraction (classic recipe for friend-zone……check.
    Basically being this boring, predictable, harmless, beta-provider, all-around nice guy

    As a female myself, I could have already told you that the above listed would not have counted in your favour. And you actually tried some game, albeit the wrong one.
    Obviously, if i had a guy always at my beck and call, I would simply think he had nothing important to do with his day and if he has nothing important to do with his day, then he has no purpose to the day. I am not saying that a man cannot help out a girl-friend, but you cannot always be at someone’s beck and call but your own.

    Your carefully thought-out gifts might not have been as thought out as you imagined. Besides, at 40, she has passed the age where you can buy her things and she will be wowed. That works on a late teens-early twenties female with very little income and economic holding power. The woman has two kids, what on earth do you think you could have bought her to impress her besides a full time babysitter or something?

    Jumping through hoops…u r not a circus puppy, so why are you jumping through hoops?
    Her in control? well, if she was always making demands and you were snapping your spine to accomodate her, she was already in control, you did not have to make additional allowances

    Comfort before attraction: I think what you meant, was comfort before “acting on” attraction. Clearly, just because she is 40 does not mean she doesn’t like to get down and flex her “equipment” but she IS 40 and has two girls, who will come first and before she gets down, she has to imagine what exposing her girls to you would mean. She cannot just welcome someone in to her bed anytime she wants, if she did and she only was acting on the physical, there would be a long string of exes.
    The attraction part is important. Simply put, maybe you did not rock her boat. Or maybe you did, and you needed to give her time to warm up to casting off from shore with you…

    Basically, you employed the courtship tactics that one would use for a girl, for a woman with two children.
    PS: waiting at the airport with flowers is actually something that really only works in the movies. I would be just happy enough that the car was out front when I got through baggage claim and that he did not comment on the fact that my weave is possibly frazzled from cabin humidity.

    Conclusion: Since I am neither Asian nor male, I cannot tell you what the best way to approach a woman, I just know what kind of man I don’t want around me.
    I have simple rules: have a firm handshake, meet my eyes, talk with me and not at me and it is okay if I have no idea what you are talking about and vice versa. I respect that we cannot all be the same.
    And if all you want is some sex, maybe if I am so inclined, you might get lucky but please don’t try to pass off a desire for sex as a desire for a relationship; they are two different things. It is the latter to which you employ game and tactics.
    Maybe if some of the men with women issues are more honest and not sneaky, they would have more success….

  66. How old is the young, cute nubile girl? Because if I do the math, 39 is a lot closer to 38, and you might have more in common with someone in that age group, if you’re looking long term. Now I don’t know either of these two women, but I’m guessing that the 39 year old was quite attractive too.

    I don’t know her exact age but she’s definitely somewhere under 30.

    Yes, the single mom was attractive. In fact, she’s on my FB page.

    She had a big hand in messing things up also. It wasn’t all my fault. She acts like an overbearing mother because that’s pretty much all she knows. I should have nipped that in the bud right from the beginning but I didn’t have a romantic interest in her at that time.

    Catwalq, you seem like a person who knows a lot and can give good advice. I have a 20-something girl who wrote “pursue me :)” on a bday-card that she gave me.

    What’s the next step? I have a idea of how to proceed but I’d like to hear what you have to say also.

  67. Errr, English not being my first. Language, I cannot be sure if there was sarcasm but if she said “pursue me”, start running after her nah.
    She wants to be pursued, if u want to pursue her, then the floor is yours. Call her and ask her what she had in mind, before u invest in a good pair of running shoes

  68. Gee thanks.

    You’re just waiting to see if I fuck up, come here to spill all the gory details, so that you can do a Monday morning quarterback analysis of the whole thing in perfectly fine English.

  69. But her demands are simple enough. “pursue me”. Now this is the girl you burst out the flowers at the airport for. However, I’ll start with the basics, like food.
    Coffee and a Panera Bread Cinnamon crunch bagel, warmly toasted with butter…
    *looks around realising she is being stared at *
    Errr…maybe that’s just me

  70. Catwalq,

    Thanks for sharing your perspective. I agree with EVERYTHING you wrote. You’re 100% right. It’s got nothing to do with “game” or some other complicated mumbo jumbo. It has everything to do with him standing up, being his own person, and setting the pace. Women usually want to date a guy who brings something to the table, not a puppy dog. (Kobu, if there are other details that are relevant, please feel free to share.)

    And yes, there is a difference between hitting on a woman with two kids and a young “nubile” girl.

    Kobu,

    She may be too young for you. I don’t know if she’s going to be able to keep up with your conversations. You need a woman who can keep up with you intellectually.

    You may have had trouble with the 39 year old woman because you were friends first–you didn’t have romantic interest at first, and neither did she. It’s sometimes hard to make that transition. Could happen in other cases too. It may not be you or her, just the situation.

    That being said, I think you should take Catwalq’s advice and pursue the younger woman if you’re interested. Don’t overanalyze it–just tell her you’d like to go out and see where it leads. Here’s a one-two-three line for you to use (and for me to Monday morning quarterback). Practice this shit twenty times in front of a mirror, and then tell us how it goes after the date:

    Call her and say, “If you’re free on Friday night, I’d like to take you to a new restaurant in town.” If she can’t make it then, schedule for another time on the spot. If she won’t schedule, move on.

    When you see her, say, “Wow. You’re beautiful.” If she’s beautiful, of course. Don’t lie. But if it’s worth making a good impression, make it.

    If the date goes well, ask her when you can see her again. If you don’t want to see her again, still close it in style like a proud WOWO. Always be a gentleman.

    There should be no ambiguity there. If there is, you’re just not saying it right. 🙂

    B.

  71. Kobu,

    She may be too young for you. I don’t know if she’s going to be able to keep up with your conversations. You need a woman who can keep up with you intellectually.

    Dude, that’s what I have you for. If I’m in a mood for pontification, I’ll just come to your blog.

    That being said, I think you should take Catwalq’s advice and pursue the younger woman if you’re interested. Don’t overanalyze it–just tell her you’d like to go out and see where it leads.

    Overanalyzing is usually a mistake that most guys make in situations where spontaneous action is called for during the heat of the moment. The brain is overloaded with conflicting “fight or flight” impulses which results in paralysis. Or it happens where the guy doesn’t know how a girl he likes feels about him and is debating whether he should ask her out or not. Clearly, that is not my situation here.

    Overanalyzing is different from premeditation.

    Here’s a one-two-three line for you to use (and for me to Monday morning quarterback). Practice this shit twenty times in front of a mirror, and then tell us how it goes after the date:

    Call her and say, “If you’re free on Friday night, I’d like to take you to a new restaurant in town.” If she can’t make it then, schedule for another time on the spot. If she won’t schedule, move on.

    My old, pre-Game self totally agrees with you here. In fact, the beta in me wants to call her up like NOW. I’m in a long, grinding dry spell and her saying “pursue me!” is like dangling some tasty meat in front of a ravenous, starved lion.

    It’s too predictable. Girls don’t like predictable. They want a guy who is challenging to them.

    Asking her out is likely what she half-expects me to do the next time I see her. I don’t think doing so would be a huge mistake in this particular case. But I sense a much better move would be to first build intrigue and a sense of mystery before actually asking her out. Make her simmer a bit. Let her wonder “does he like me? how come he’s not asking me out?” Right now I have the upper hand because she made the first move and it’s obvious she likes me. I need to use this to my advantage. On the other hand, totally ignoring her is obviously not the way to play it either.

    I would ask her out as the next step if there was a high chance I might not see her again. But that is not true. The context against which this is happening is that we’re both part of the same social circle that includes both guys and girls. We meet on a fairly regular basis. Furthermore, asking her out puts pressure on both of us and introduces premature “seriousness”. That is not desirable because until now I’ve barely even acknowledged her presence. The game that I was running was directed mostly at other people. But she can plainly see that I am confident with a good sense of humor, and likes to have fun. To ask her out as the next move would be too sudden.

    I think “pursue me” really means “flirt with me more” or “do that thing you do with Jenny and Christina with me also” or “pay more attention to me”. If one wishes to be proficient with Game, gotta learn to interpret womanese. Gotta think like ’em.

    So that is what I am going to do. I’m going to use tease/push-pull/mild neg-DHV on her. With a cocky-funny flavor to it all. Extra heavy on the tease.

    Then at some point I will say to her, in a whispered, conspiratory tone, as if I have some secret to share:

    “Hey, pissst….let me talk to you for a bit. Let’s go somewhere where we can talk private.” Intrigue.

    “I saw what you wrote on the card.”

    She blushes. I’m going to look at her in an evaluating manner like I’m a band leader and she’s some newbie who asked to join my band. DHV.

    “I don’t know…you see, I think you’ve been hanging around mostly boys.” Mild neg.

    Which is true.

    “Being around a man is a little different. If I pursue you, I think you’ll just run away like a scared little bunny rabbit…” Qualification.

    Her knee-jerk reaction to this is “no, I won’t…blah blah blah”.

    She’ll be trying to convince me why that is not true. Reverse psychology.

    End this encounter with a tentative, “hmmm, we’ll see…” attitude on my part.
    More qualification. I’m in control the whole time and I end the convo.

    Do some more tease/push-pull/mild neg-DHV on her next time we’re in mixed company.

    THEN, ask her out on a date.

    Game often sounds stupid and contrived in written form but when executed in real-time, it can be a thing of beauty. It’s like the difference between reading a screenplay and watching the movie.

    When you see her, say, “Wow. You’re beautiful.” If she’s beautiful, of course. Don’t lie. But if it’s worth making a good impression, make it.

    The old, pre-Game self agrees with you. My newly acquired training says this is a mistake.

    If the date goes well, ask her when you can see her again. If you don’t want to see her again, still close it in style like a proud WOWO. Always be a gentleman.

    There should be no ambiguity there. If there is, you’re just not saying it right.

    B.

    What I wrote above is Game that I plan on executing. Thanks for your advice, though, I think I’ll pass.

    Tell you what, B. Let’s make a wager on this. I see an opportunity to make you, a non-believer, into a convert. If my shit works, then you have to promise me that you’ll repent of your anti-Game blasphemies. If my shit completely bombs, then I’ll acknowledge that you were right.

    How about it?

  72. Kobu,

    Dude, that’s what I have you for. If I’m in a mood for pontification, I’ll just come to your blog.

    Haha…thanks. But really, I’m all the way in Oregon. You’re going to have a lot more conversations with your S.O. than with me, even if you post here everyday, which I hope you continue to do. You’re going to raise children with her, not me. You’ll go to church with her, not me. So it probably makes sense to find a woman who can keep up with you. Don’t take the PUA advice. Find your equal.

    About the rest of your post:

    Oh. My. God. Oh. My. God. Say it ain’t so, Joe.

    So let me get this straight. This nice girl wrote you a love note, and you’re going to use it to tease her? That’s very romantic. [/sarcasm]

    Dude, trust me. Do NOT do what you just said. I’ll pretend I just didn’t read that. Do not “neg,” use “reverse psychology,” use “qualification,” “teach/push-pull/mild-neg-DHV,” or play any of these games. You’re going to use a hmmm, we’ll see…” attitude? Please don’t. I’m begging you not to do this.

    And above all…DO NOT MENTION THE CARD. Why would you even think of mentioning the card? Why would you even THINK of humiliating her with that? Just run with it. You see, this is the problem with PUA–it teaches you to be CREEPY rather than considerate.

    Game often sounds stupid and contrived in written form but when executed in real-time, it can be a thing of beauty. It’s like the difference between reading a screenplay and watching the movie.

    Yes, it does sound stupid and contrived. If this were a movie or screenplay, I don’t know what genre it would be. It certainly wouldn’t be romance or comedy. Horror? It does terrify me more than Friday the 13th.

    If my shit works, then you have to promise me that you’ll repent of your anti-Game blasphemies. If my shit completely bombs, then I’ll acknowledge that you were right.

    Kobu, first of all, I don’t want you to pull this stunt on that poor girl. Second of all, you’re a 38 year old dude with tons of work experience and art experience hitting on a younger woman in her twenties who is just getting started in life–you’ve got all the advantages. You have no excuse to fail!

    How about this: if your shit completely bombs, I’ll laugh; if your shit works, I’ll cry. 🙂

  73. In other words, I’m telling you to call her right NOW and not to play these mind games. Guys should save their hazing for other guys.

  74. @Kobu: while u were writing that long assed physics analysis, some other guy did pursue her and she allowed herself to get caught. And then u will be back here complaining that women did u wrong

  75. Kobukson,

    You know best as you’re the one closest person to the situation and in the best position to evaluate it. I am not sure what the backstory between the girl and you is. The ‘pursue me’ is a clear signal. Have you seen other signals (“ioi’s”)?

    I’m thinking of the usual Mystery scenario where he’s been semi-ignoring his ‘target’ to the point where now she wants his attention. Doesn’t he usually start moving into ‘comfort’, or late stage ‘attraction’ at this point?

    Either way, man, just follow your gut. If it doesn’t work, it’s just feedback for you to adjust the next time an opportunity comes around.

  76. OMG!!! Ki lo de!!!!
    Kobu, I just read through what you wrote. Please put the game book down and back away from the girl’s number. I doubt if there was any female input in the creation of your game book, and if there was, the chick was probably the product of years of mind games and abuse.

    What is wrong with you?

    A girl likes you and you want to “use it to your advantage”? Are you looking for a partner or an emotional handbag? or even worse, an emotional wreck? Advantage means one above the other, one under the other’s thumb. It’s about power and manipulation and it usually results in some kind of abuse.

    Your words sent chills down my spine cos I felt that you spent a considerable amount of time coming up with your “strategy”. You disturb me, dude.

  77. Notty,
    I’m in total agreement! That’s the problem with language–it brings its own prejudices into any discussion. I think Derrida once said something about this, but masculine is always seen as good, while feminine is always seen as bad–at least in the context of most conversations. It’s hard too because men are supposed to conform to being masculine, while women aren’t supposed to act “manly.” It creates a hard and unfair framework in which to talk, especially for women. And really, we’re talking about forces and actions, rather than people.

    Yeah, but I think it depends on the culture. Some cultures seem to be more accepting or tolerant of the gender bending.

    I do think that manliness is always positive when someone says, “Be a Man.” And maybe it should be positive whenever an older woman advises a younger girl to be “ladylike.” It’s just that people have always defined “manliness” as “masculinity,” and “ladylike-ness” as femininity, when they really aren’t exactly the same thing. Yin and yang probably are not so much culturally determined as they seem to be similar ideas in most cultures, but masculinity/being a man and femininity/being a woman probably are. If this makes sense…

    I think I get what you’re saying. Whether something gets ascribed as manly or ladylike is in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. It’s a cultural lens. There does seem to be some kind of universal agreement on some things. Science has already associated certain kinds of behavior with testosterone and others with estrogen, and other kinds of hormones. Certain kinds of action seem ‘innate’ to a person’s sex. One of the differences across cultures, then, seems to be tolerance and acceptance of those who don’t fit that. Some cultures seem to let them be, while others will make them submit to their ascribed their role.

    So, getting back to the topic, do you think you have now a neutral baseline description of masculinity?

  78. Catwalq,

    Now you know why PUA freaks me out. It can take a nice guy, play with his mind, and turn him into something/someone completely different. Here’s a girl wanting to get into a relationship, and she’s gonna get GAMED!

    That’s the thing. If you or me say that it’s best just to be nice and upfront, people say that we’re not really giving good advice or solutions. People prefer the packaged lines and mindsets.

    I say just go for it. Say what you want, and if it doesn’t work out, it doesn’t work out.

    Notty,

    You’re totally right. You’re right about science, testosterone, etc. too.

    I think masculinity has to be understood as neither positive nor negative. It’s just the yang force. The Chinese definition is actually much better (although I have no idea if the same prejudice exists in Chinese). How is this?

    “To be masculine is to embody brave and aggressive action towards the fulfillment of one’s or one’s society’s explicit main goals.”

    But being masculine is different from “being a man.” “Being a man” should be the main goal; masculinity is just one part of that.

  79. Byron,

    You really need to come down from your Ivory Tower. Your high falutin’ ideals does not square with reality.

    This is an experiment. Based upon my own real life experience. Not some hot air blowing out of my ass. I’m putting my own chance at getting this girl at stake to prove a point. That you’re wrong. What’s more…that you’re really full of it with all your hyperventilating, useless moralistic and self-righteous bullshit. I really, REALLY think you are doing fellow AMs a major disservice by misrepresenting Game on your blog. I take that much more seriously than anything else.

    I wrote the account about me pursuing the single mom as an example of using NO GAME. Just being myself. I was honest, upfront, expressed my feelings to her, open, noble….basically all that crap you were talking about before.

    Result: FAIL.

    BTW, the list of all the things I did wrong? All that realization came as a result of me getting back into Game. If I hadn’t done so, I’d still be wondering what the hell happened. I’d probably just resign myself to growing old and bitter and drop off the dating scene altogether. A lot of AMs are doing just that.

    BTW, I find it really amusing that you and Cat basically took everything I’ve written about why I failed with the single mom and passed it off as your own “wisdom” saying things like “well, duh, I could have told you that….”

    You and some other complain about “shaming” techniques that PUAs supposedly use? Then please explain exactly what you call what you just wrote?

    I only care about what WORKS and what DOES NOT WORK. Not whether you or anyone else likes it. Not whether it makes you feel warm and fuzzy or whatever.

    You want to know why guys like me are turning to Game? Because they are realizing that all pious liberal, politically-correct bullshit crap that people like you yap about are nothing but pretty lies. Women treat nice guys, who know nothing of Game, who have only the best intentions….like utter shit.

  80. @kobukson,

    As they say everything is fair in love (okay maybe not love) and war. What do you care what others think? If your strategy gets you what you want, more power to you. Everyone plays mind games to different level. They just call it displaying social intelligence or whatever. I mean one has to look out for themselves before moving onto the selfless love level. You don’t know what is in the other person’s heart and mind.

    Byron, Catwalq, I found your responses a bit weird. Here is a guy opening up some personal detail… and he gets some smart Alec response. Yeah, hindsight is 20/20.

  81. As for Kobukson’s situation, we really don’t have that much insight into it other than what Kobukson has said, which is not really that much. Maybe I fail at reading comprehension, but as far as I’m aware all we know about her is:

    1) She’s in Kobukson’s social circle
    2) She wrote “pursue me” on a birthday card.

    Unless Kobukson volunteers more details, there’s not enough info to assume anything other than she’s being forward (for a girl). Maybe she just wants a little ego boost in the form of attention, or maybe she is looking for a relationship—or anything in between.

  82. Aww John,
    Really? My remarks are “smart alec” for questioning why he would respond to a simple request from a girl with mind games and possible emotional distress on the girl? I guess that is what you employ as well. Maybe when your daughter tells you that someone did the same thing to her, my alec will not seem so smart, eh?

    @Nottyboy: why is she forward? she stated what she wanted.

  83. Catwalq,

    You said earlier that your English is not so good. Yet here you are writing in perfectly fine English. I checked out your blog. You are a writer, or at least an aspiring one.

    So why are you playing mind games?

  84. @Kobukson: I said it is not good enough for me to figure out if your initial statement ” you seem like a person who knows a lot and can give good advice” was sincere or not. English is not my first language.

    I don’t play games at all.
    That is your forte.

  85. 1) I consider Kobu to be a friend—grant it we have never met, but that’s not a problem.

    2) Like anybody who’s gotten the pointy end of the stick in the eye in a relationship, I totally sympathize with the way that he feels. IT DEFINITELY SUCKS.

    As for “GAME” the word has different meanings. In the Black community the phase “You got Game” when referring to women goes back at least to the ’70s and perhaps as far back as the ’50s. In that context, it just means that you’re good with women.

    However, there’s a difference in the formal use of “GAME” as is described in the original pick up manifesto by Neil Strauss.

    The third use of “GAME” is always preceded by the word “playing,” as in “He’s not serious, he just likes “Playing Games.”

    So, a great deal depends on what a person means by the the word, “GAME.”
    However, the Neil Strauss version has serious flaws.

  86. “smart alec”

    No, about the response to the other women he was pursuing.

    And yes, I am the pimp daddy. Don’t you know? I am all Game.. I mean social intelligence … no, no I meant human diplomacy. Daughters, who knows how many I have? I don’t keep track how many and where.

  87. Playing Games: We all engage in this to some degree.

    -How many of us has delayed calling a romantic interest back because we didn’t want to spill the beans about how head over heels we really were about them?

    -How many of us have pretended to be more busy than we really were in order to give the impression that we weren’t depending on a person to rescue us from boredom?

    -How many of us have sweated it out over the course of a few days, waiting on someone to call us, because the calls to them had become way too lopsided?

    All of this is “playing games” and seeking an advantage to some extent. It’s not meant to be harmful or oppressive, it’s just a way of trying to keep a certain balance of interest in the early part of a relationship.

    However, if these games become a lifestyle… watch out.

  88. 1) I consider Kobu to be a friend—grant it we have never met, but that’s not a problem.

    Thanks, King. You are a friend too as well as a scholar and a gent. I have no idea why Cat would think I was being insincere after I got done spilling personal details about a rather painful and recent experience in my life. Do you? Getting rejected by a single mom at the age of 38 is not fun.

    I said it is not good enough for me to figure out if your initial statement ” you seem like a person who knows a lot and can give good advice” was sincere or not. English is not my first language.

    I was being sincere.

    My remarks are “smart alec” for questioning why he would respond to a simple request from a girl with mind games and possible emotional distress on the girl?

    The reason why I go through all this trouble is because I want to make her vag tingle with desire. Not cause her “emotional distress”.

    Hey, look. Guys like me would be absolutely thrilled if winning a girl was logical, sensible, and God forbid being honest, upfront and caring about a woman even if it did make him seem lame, boring, or whatever. It would be fantastic if preparing a carefully-thought out gifts or waiting with flowers for her at the airport was viewed as an expression of affection rather than turning out to be a big fat stupid mistake.

    There’s a big difference between what women say and how they behave.

  89. “There’s a big difference between what women say and how they behave.”

    I agree. It’s true that there are both conscious and subconscious motivations and they manifest themselves in both men and women. And very often the subconscious will work seemingly in direct contradiction to the conscious expressions of need.

    A good example of conscious/subconscious is when children scream and cry and throw a fit, but are really looking for limits and structure from a parent. The deeper need is for boundaries and structure, but based on their actions you would think that they want the parent to simply give in and do whatever they say. If the parent confronts the child in spite of the trouble and unpleasantness, she will actually be responding to the deeper need. If the parent just gives in, the child will not appreciate it and will actually become more distressed because the core need has not been met.

    I think that people do this all the time. It certainly happens a LOT in relationships. Both partners will find ways to push the other person and subconsciously test for things that seem to be in complete contradiction of what they are saying. So half the time, if you actually do what the person is asking of you, you will be making the wrong decision. That’s why you can’t afford to do what a woman ASKS you to do. You have to respond based on your own system of beliefs and level of self-respect.

  90. Kobu/John:

    I didn’t think there was anything smart Alecky about what I said…well, except for maybe the joke about the movie screenplay being a horror flick..and I guess the joke about laughing and crying. Well, okay…maybe I was being a smart Alec.

    …seriously, I’m not trying to pick on Kobu. I consider Kobu a friend, and I hope he considers me the same. But you need to realize what he just said. He’s going to haze this innocent woman who (for what we know) hasn’t done anything to him. He’s got an age advantage, a gender advantage (since men usually initiate), an experience advantage, and he probably makes more money than her. PLUS…and this is a big plus…she has already opened up herself by admitting that she has some kind of feelings for him. So the ball is absolutely in his court. She told him to move forward. I’m not understanding why he wouldn’t just do that. He’s got all the advantage here.

    “I have no idea why Cat would think I was being insincere after I got done spilling personal details about a rather painful and recent experience in my life. Do you? Getting rejected by a single mom at the age of 38 is not fun.”

    I’m not sure why anyone would be surprised at Catwalq’s reaction. Kobu basically just said he’s going to play with the emotions of an innocent woman.

    C’mon guys, we need empathy here.

    What would any of you say if you were on a message board where the majority of participants were Asian women, and some woman was talking about how she was going to flirt with both an Asian lawyer and a White janitor, and she was going to get the Asian lawyer to spend lots of lawyer money on her while getting naughty with the janitor while the lawyer was at work? What if she justified it by saying, “These arrogant Chinamen think they can buy women with money…well, I’ll show them!”

    I think any of you would empathize with the Asian lawyer and would be a little upset at the woman, especially given how many of us get played the same way.

    This is empathy.

    But more to the point, Kobu, we have a BIG miscommunication issue here, and I’d really like some help with where and how it came about.. You wrote:

    I wrote the account about me pursuing the single mom as an example of using NO GAME. Just being myself. I was honest, upfront, expressed my feelings to her, open, noble….basically all that crap you were talking about before.

    Kobu, with all due respect, I’m completely confused.

    You say you were being honest, upfront, open, noble, etc., but I totally didn’t get that from your original recounting of the story. From your original recounting of the story, I actually thought you were acting like a doormat, sending her presents without telling her what you felt or wanted, being available without setting boundaries. I thought you were NOT being honest, upfront, open, and noble, which is why I told you in this comment that you needed to be more upfront.

    Could you please tell us exactly what happened? Were you even dating? If I had asked her during that time, “Is Kobu your boyfriend,” would she have said yes? I was under the impression that you weren’t dating, hence your call to “game.” If you weren’t dating AND were sending her presents, I don’t think you were being upfront. If you were dating, then why would you need “game?”

    Do you see how and why I’m confused? I think Catwalq probably read you the same way.

    I apologize if I came down hard on you, but you have to understand that what you told me just now is completely different from what you originally told me. Or at least the way I read it.

  91. The discussion has certainly exploded, I can’t keep up as I’ve got a lot of work backed up and nuisance travelling to do. >8[

    Jaehwan there was nothing “smart alec” about your responses.

    What’s going on here is that a guy (Kobukson) has deluded himself into believing that PUA is the be all and end all of game (even when he says its not), and has absorbed this belief into the core of his personality like a born again religionist would, so when you question that belief it looks to him like a personal attack.

    A person doesn’t need “game” to understand that behaving like he did with that single mom was being a DOORMAT. One would expect a guy with ELEVEN YEARS OF DATING EXPERIENCE to have known this.

    And all that previous talk about how PUA does not equal game or vice versa is laughable considering that his version of game is ALL PUA stuff. Negs, DHV, wtf? If this is what passes for game then PUA is truly a Darwinian mechanism – to weed out minds damaged by a chronic lack of sex.

    There is no such thing as “game”, people. How you interact with women is REFLECTION of who you are and how you live your daily life.

  92. “You want to know why guys like me are turning to Game? Because they are realizing that all pious liberal, politically-correct bullshit crap that people like you yap about are nothing but pretty lies. Women treat nice guys, who know nothing of Game, who have only the best intentions….like utter shit.”

    Here we come to the crux of the matter.

    The Nice Guy is not actually a nice person, he is merely attempting to use his niceness to shame or guilt a woman into accepting his advances. How typical.

    In the deluded Nice Guy’s mind there is a kind of “social contract” where just because a guy does everything that society and other people tells him is good, he should also receive the adulation and privileges that were promised – except that these promises were just behavioral conditioning… employed on children.

    Thirty eight years later said Nice Guy realises that for all his beliefs he has gone nowhere and has absolutely NOTHING to his name. While everything was tolerable he could still soldier on and preach Nice Guy ideals…. when the camel’s back breaks it breaks with an audible SNAP. Nice Guy has reached the limits of his endurance.

    Nice Guy now gets in touch with his true nature, or perhaps he is drawn to that need he could never fill and that has now become a gaping black hole.

    Nice Guy now wants CONTROL. Nice Guy now wants to get what is his. Nice Guy wants to get VENGEANCE.

    Yes. YES!!! Turn to the dark side! How familiar all of this seems, ROFL.

    Except that PUA/Game does not teach. It misleads and betrays. There is no power to be had from learning Game via PUA, only delusions and madnesses that will lead you ever further from reality. No company of women, but only of deluded PUA forum addicts who never seem to figure out what’s up even for years, and the deranged rantings of outcasts reduced to raving and writing manifestos on their own blogs and to their fellow misfits.

    I say all this now so that the Aspiring PUAs who read this will know their fates have been foreseen. Not to save you, but so you know that you were DAMNED by your own hubris and baser natures from the very beginning, the better that when you fail and can barely cling on to the end of your own rope you will know that you have failed completely and utterly, that you are less than a human being because of the sum total of your own choices. Then as you fall and you see the better lived lives of men who have never resorted to PUA you will realise:

    “Good iron is never used to make nails. Quality man never becomes PUA”.

  93. “There is no such thing as “game”, people. ”

    Umm… the fact remains: guys do get better with women from experience. Its sure ain’t the personality that changes after a few trials. I hope not. So what happens? You are the same person but approach the whole thing a bit differently.

    Call it whatever you want. Perhaps we can invite a doctor to give it a name as they come up with the weirdest names for simple things.

  94. John Doe, you sound confused. Are you suffering?

    If you are unable to reconcile the idea that a man’s personality is not static and unchanging and can be in fact changed by many factors, experience being one of them, then I do not know how to help you.

    I certainly hope you’re not one of those Asian guys who’ve lived in a bubble for long periods of time.

  95. I am reminded of that old saying about crabs in a bucket. When one crab tries to climb out, the other crabs will try to pull it back down.

    I get bashed for acting like a doormat. OK fine. Then I say I’m gonna do the opposite of doormat and I still get bashed.

    Here is something you are not considering. I got to this point because I was consciously running Game. Tease, neg, DHV…all the elements of Game that you’re getting hot and preachy about is exactly what I’ve been doing. Pretty, young girl comes at me and says ‘pursue me’. Explain that.

    None of you have convinced me why I should stop what I’m already doing.
    Like I said, we shall see what happens. This isn’t over. I’m gonna do what I said I’m gonna do. If she grows more attracted to me as a result, which I fully expect to happen, then what?

    If you think what I am doing is ethically or morally wrong and women find me more attractive because of it, then you will have to rethink your own stance on the matter and consider what this implies about women and the nature of attraction.

    I’m done here.

  96. @Raguel,

    Yes I am suffering you. You seem to have a week personality. You know experts define personality (in simple terms) as something that doesn’t change when you move into a new city. Its a personality, get it? If talking to a few women, a man’s personality changes than he is no man. There is definitely some debate about nature vs nurture but even the rabid supporter do not expect personality change on the time scale you mentioned.

    Yes, I am a bubble boy. Always protected given that I left home when I was about 14yrs of age. Living in a cocoon protected by my culture since my teen age years, as an Asian in the west.

  97. Kobukson,

    I didn’t bash you for acting like a doormat. I didn’t bash you for being the opposite of a doormat either. In fact, I was one of the people suggesting not acting like a doormat, which is why I suggested being straight forward and upfront and not neg, peacock, or whatever. At least I thought that’s what I was saying. If it came out as bashing, I apologize.

    Here is something you are not considering. I got to this point because I was consciously running Game. Tease, neg, DHV…all the elements of Game that you’re getting hot and preachy about is exactly what I’ve been doing. Pretty, young girl comes at me and says ‘pursue me’. Explain that.

    You’re totally right; I hadn’t considered that you may have already used this. I don’t know why some women liked being negged, DHV’ed, and teased, but I guess it depends on the person.

    Best of luck with the girl. I was kidding about crying if you get together; I really do want what’s best for you. Whatever reason that the PUAs have more authority than me or Catwalq or Raguel on this matter, I respect it.

  98. “… week personality …”

    Ha, ha … it was unintentional… I meant weak personality but that also works … on many levels … week personality thats funny…

  99. John Doe, I think you are suffering from something else altogether.

    You have two problems.

    The first is that you do not understand what you are reading. The second is you do not understand what you are writing.

  100. @Raguel,

    You claim I do not have reading and writing comprehension, and yet you keep replying to me. For what purpose?

    I am sure its the easy thing for you to just claim I am confused, protected in a bubble, lacking language comprehension (is it because you think Asians score less than whites in verbal SAT score?). However, to judge me personally sitting behind a computer is meaningless.

    Here is a suggestion. Instead of indulging in personal attacks how about you try to defend what you write. It will require more thought and effort if you want to discuss like an adult.

    Explain how a person’s personality changes measurably by a few interactions with women like you suggest. At the rate you are suggesting, even your family should not recognize you after a year.

  101. “Explain how a person’s personality changes measurably by a few interactions with women like you suggest. At the rate you are suggesting, even your family should not recognize you after a year.”

    Except that I have never suggested what you claim I suggest.

    Hence why I believe you are confused.

  102. “Here is something you are not considering. I got to this point because I was consciously running Game. Tease, neg, DHV…all the elements of Game that you’re getting hot and preachy about is exactly what I’ve been doing. Pretty, young girl comes at me and says ‘pursue me’. Explain that.”

    True, but there are other considerations

    1) Is this REALLY you? Is it going to be sustainable over the long term as your own personality, or are you going to have to live your life as somebody else in order to feel loved? That is going to wear you down, as time goes on.

    2) What are you willing to do to her? Are you willing to make her insecure enough to “love” you? Knocking her self-esteem down as a matter of course? Withholding your affection as a means of control? Is this going to make her the girl of your dreams, or a warped and fading shadow of the young woman you once knew?

    A short term result doesn’t indicate a longer term good outcome.

    PUA is arsenic mixed with common sense. When the common sense part is effective in the short term, the PUA advocates begin heralding the medicinal value of arsenic.

    All I’m saying Kobu is to be true to the person that you are. Sure, modify your approach a bit when needed, but don’t abandon your core character, because in the end, you will regret becoming someone else.

  103. @Nottyboy: why is she forward? she stated what she wanted.

    Her behaviour is bold and brave. It’s not something most women do, in my experience, because they’re too afraid of rejection. She is taking a risk in a context that’s not expected of women, but expected of men.

    I think it’s cool, and more power to her.

    @Jae:

    I’m not sure why anyone would be surprised at Catwalq’s reaction. Kobu basically just said he’s going to play with the emotions of an innocent woman.

    Kobu’s basic plan can be boiled down to playing hot and cold– something many many women do, without having a downpour of moral indignation thrown at them. 🙂

    You say you were being honest, upfront, open, noble, etc., but I totally didn’t get that from your original recounting of the story. From your original recounting of the story, I actually thought you were acting like a doormat, sending her presents without telling her what you felt or wanted, being available without setting boundaries. I thought you were NOT being honest, upfront, open, and noble, which is why I told you in this comment that you needed to be more upfront.

    The description he gave was a retrospect in light of what he learned from PUA (I assume). What he described amounts to courtship (“supplication”), and what’s expected of guys. Maybe he failed to “confess” before she put a stop to it, I don’t know.

    @Raguel: What’s your experience with PUA? How did you arrive at this point in your thinking?

    Also,

    The Nice Guy is not actually a nice person, he is merely attempting to use his niceness to shame or guilt a woman into accepting his advances. How typical.

    This is one way of looking at it, but it’s off base for a lot of people. I hope you’re not condemning people for actually having a sex drive, and having desires. Nice guys often behave nicely because that’s the right thing to do, in their minds.

    Many women say they want what a nice, decent guy. It’s pretty common to hear women complain about their “jerk” of a boyfriend to the nice guy friend. The stereotypical line is “Why can’t I find a nice man like you?”). Except she doesn’t love him “that way.”

    For the most part, nice guys take it in stride and hope that one day a girl will appreciate what they have to offer, and he can finally be in a relationship.

    I was basically that guy in High School. I also had a jock friend who I was close with, because he was one of those smart jocks with good grades. We were always arguing because I didn’t like the way he disrespected women, until one day he showed me that women didn’t want the kind of respect I was taught they did. One day at lunch, one by one, he made out with half the girls in the class– those who were hot but had no boyfriend in the school. Even the ones who were known as “good girls.”

    The other cute girls who had boyfriends, even the nerdy ones, were dating guys who banged prostitutes behind their backs, abused the weaker males even when they were nice (specially if they were nice and just wanted to be left alone), cut class regularly, smoked dope or drank in school, and always got in trouble with the teachers and the dean of the school. Some of those dudes are in jail right now, I kid you not, and one of them is walking around with an ankle tracker. Real winners!

    So, I’m glad my jock friend set me straight on what it’s really like. If it wasn’t for him, I’d still have been a virgin through highschool and college.

    I am happily married now, and if it hadn’t been for the education I got from my jock friend, and other true to the game players, I’d probably have ended either alone or most likely married to someone who wasn’t right for me. Instead, I was able to sow my wild oats and shop around like many normal people, whether boys or girls, do– which allowed me to find the right person for me.

  104. “To be masculine is to embody brave and aggressive action towards the fulfillment of one’s or one’s society’s explicit main goals.”

    But being masculine is different from “being a man.” “Being a man” should be the main goal; masculinity is just one part of that.

    That definition makes more sense to me as a baseline. I agree that there is more to “being a man” than just being masculine. That’s where it will get more difficult as there will be a lot of divergence in opinions. I’ll just listen to the input of others, because I have my own cultural baggage of what it means to “be a man.”

  105. @Nottyboy: I will say that your experience in high school was a function of the environment you grew up in. In my country, none of that behaviour is acceptable.

    I have come to understand that the media here implies that women (in this country) do not want “good” men and would rather be treated like crap. That might be true in their youth but please go do an analysis of the men they do decide to settle down with and have children with: they are mostly good guys.

    Also, if the only women you see are women who behave as you have described, change your group of friends. I don’t know one single woman who lives this way or entertains such advances from such type of men; so maybe you need to find other people to socialise with who are not involved in toxic behaviour.

    @King,
    You say it so well

    @Kobukson,
    I know it can be exhausting desiring a partner and feeling that the circumstances around you are not working in your favour. The point is, if indeed what you are looking for is someone that you will laugh with when you are 70, these are not the methods you employ. You might distabilise her into initial compliance and she will indulge you but one day, she will look in the mirror and ask herself how she got where she was and blame YOU for taking her there. And that is when you see real pain because she will want all the time she has spent with you back and/or erased and employ whatever means to accomplish that.
    You think women do and say contradictory things, wait till they are actually pissed off at you and then you will pray for your life.

    I am 27 years old. If I told a guy that I liked him and intimated that I was open to the opportunity to date him as this girl has done for you and he turned around and tried what you are suggesting that you will try, you best believe I am not going to take his calls. I will cut him off so quick, he will think he made up my advances in his head. There is only so much drama I can manage in my life.

    Whether or not you are 38 or 14, always employ respect for the other person. Cos if she figures out that games are what get you going, and she is interested in doing the same, she will perfect her moves and you will be right back where you started. If she wanted something more, she will be worn out by all this back and forth and you will loose her.

    And as for your complaints that being a nice guy has not gotten you positive results, do you go out and steal just because not doing so previously has not made you rich? As long as you are content with your station and optimistic about the future and working towards it, you will always have what you need. But if you think being a decent human being has not worked for you and you want to be a douche bag, you will probably have lots of sex like Hank Moody but you will also be a middle aged man, with a dysfunctional daughter, an on and off baby mama and a life constantly on the brink of the toilet.

    Do you. Be true. And have patience.

  106. About kobukson’s “young nubile girl”, nobody really knows enough about the situation to give useful critique with such conviction. None of us really know kobukson & definitely never met that young girl and their history of interaction, perception etc….

    Even if Kobukson messes it up w/that girl, it’s clear that he’s an analytical reflective guy who’ll learn from the experience. (curiously, kobu, is she asian?)

    Just make sure whatever PUA tactics u use are congruent w/ur personality, lifestyle etc… i.e. I can’t use rich guy, sophisticated, mysterious, enigmatic, smooth PUA lines. Coming off as a chill, easy going, fun weekend alcoholic is more in line with my actual lifestyle, personality and age. In other words, you want to come off as genuine as well as actually be genuine.

    Kobu: “Asking her out is likely what she half-expects me to do the next time I see her. I don’t think doing so would be a huge mistake in this particular case. But I sense a much better move would be to first build intrigue and a sense of mystery before actually asking her out. Make her simmer a bit. Let her wonder “does he like me? how come he’s not asking me out?” Right now I have the upper hand because she made the first move and it’s obvious she likes me. I need to use this to my advantage. On the other hand, totally ignoring her is obviously not the way to play it either.”

    I want to point out something. A cornerstone of PUA is to never put a woman on a pedestal. If you spend a lot of time & energy strategizing how to best “catch” a specific girl, your actions are saying this girl is very important to you. So in a way, you are indirectly putting her on a pedestal. (in ur case it might be ok, since I suspect you’re trying to do a PUA social experiment)

    Consider courting & dating multiple women at one time. You won’t care as much if you get rejected or flaked on by one woman, cuz you’ll be trying to work something out w/the next one in your phonebook. Your lifestyle will subcommunicate to women that you’re a desirable man with options, that you’re the prize etc… It’s a form of passive value. (if you’re already doing this, ignore me)

    So if you were to directly ask her to hang out. I doubt it’d be a bad idea. If she flakes, just send her a few fun & flirty texts during the week. Ask her to hang again a few weeks later. Just make sure that she’s not the only girl you’re trying to date.

    A bunch of PUA I think is really cheesy and semi gets u into robotic thinking, but I honestly think betterasianman.com podcast is really good and non-cheesy. Here’s a blog I read, it’s not a PUA blog, but it is a blog based on relationships, dating, and fuck buddies etc…

    Author: “in all honesty, even when you read books about “the game” and being a pro at the pick-up game, I really tend to laugh at guys who take that too seriously, because the truth is, simplicity is key. In those other books or shows or websites on picking up women, they give advice on making you into a fucking tool who thinks every word through and does things that women expect them to do. And it may work for a night or so, but then it just gets extremely boring”

    http://www.shiteilike.com/5-things-to-learn-from-hank-moody/

    learning by observing, imitating and hanging around “naturals” is probably at least as beneficial as learning formal PUA. Unfortunately, I don’t think most AMs grow up having too many role models that are “naturals”.

  107. @Catwalq:

    Puerto Rico, my country of origin, is predominantly Catholic and conservative. The U.S. is more sexually liberated, but still has a strong Puritanical undercurrent in it. In both countries, there are sexual behaviors that are widely labeled as “right” or “wrong”. My experience has been been that plenty of people engage in the “wrong” and it’s often kept under wraps (at least for women).

    If it was only a matter of my social circle, or my high school, I might be more inclined to agree with you. However, I happen to have met mostly women from outside of my social circle after high school. Most of them were met outside of nightclubs as well, because my bread and butter happened were places like coffee shops, libraries, bookstores, pizza joints, dept stores, etc. I met women of diverse backgrounds (students, doctors, lawyers, IT professionals, waitresses, etc).

    I have come to understand that the media here implies that women (in this country) do not want “good” men and would rather be treated like crap.

    I don’t think the media, until recently, pushed the meme that women did not want “good men”, and when it did, it mostly portrayed said women as “bad women” or confused victims. Now that some of the PUA memes have penetrated the mainstream, the media landscape is changing a bit.

    That might be true in their youth but please go do an analysis of the men they do decide to settle down with and have children with: they are mostly good guys.

    You see, the problem is that you’re only young once. A lot of women who choose to settle with the “nice man” got to sow their wild oats and enjoy their youth, and have their fun. In light of that, how is it fair to ask a “nice guy” to remain involuntarily celibate until he hits his 30’s or 40’s? That’s a double standard. I’d much rather they be given a more realistic appraisal of the dating scene so that they can also enjoy their youth, and settle down later if they want.

    Also, if the only women you see are women who behave as you have described, change your group of friends. I don’t know one single woman who lives this way or entertains such advances from such type of men; so maybe you need to find other people to socialise with who are not involved in toxic behaviour.

    I know this isn’t directed at me, but I want to comment:

    @Kobukson,
    I know it can be exhausting desiring a partner and feeling that the circumstances around you are not working in your favour. The point is, if indeed what you are looking for is someone that you will laugh with when you are 70, these are not the methods you employ.

    This is what folks misunderstand. The skills for actually maintaining a relationship are different; that is already understood (or should be) by most guys. This knowledge, however, is often necessary to get you past the irrational nonsense that a lot of people, who are otherwise normal decent, engage in.

    And as for your complaints that being a nice guy has not gotten you positive results, do you go out and steal just because not doing so previously has not made you rich?

    Come on, it’s not even in the same planet, let alone the same ballpark as stealing. It’s more like not eating beef because you were told beef is bad for you, and then much later finding out that most people, including those who sold that belief to you, have been eating steaks for dinner all along.

    When that happened to me, I stopped judging people who like beef, because I had discovered how tasty steaks are.

    P.S. I’m not saying that you, Jaehwan, etc are the same type of people who said one thing and did another; I don’t know any of you personally. I do suspect, however, that you guys don’t know how good it is to indulge in rib-eye steaks. 🙂

  108. By the way, this experience is hardly rare:

    Many women say they want what a nice, decent guy. It’s pretty common to hear women complain about their “jerk” of a boyfriend to the nice guy friend. The stereotypical line is “Why can’t I find a nice man like you?”). Except she doesn’t love him “that way.”

  109. As counterintuitive as it may seem, one of the best pieces of advice that I’ve taken in regard to relating to women is that it can’t be all about women.

    The reason that most guys are both bored and boring, is because they are frantically searching for a woman to make their lives interesting, whole, and complete. It’s like… “If I could only meet the right woman.” But the truth is that there is no right woman that’s going to magically appear and “fix” your life and make you happy. That’s something that you have to do on your own BEFORE you meet the right woman.

    Find out what YOU like: Is it volleyball or theater, maybe fishing, rock climbing, snowboarding, travel, or dancing? Have you ever really taken any time to figure out what your own interests are? I mean, what makes YOU happy? Sit down, make a list, invest a little time and effort into yourself for a change—most guys NEVER do this.

    Once you figure out what you like, want, and what makes you happy, then go out and pursue it. Take a dance class, join a volleyball league, join a fencing club, take a trip with lonelyplanet.com , get out there and make your life complete, all by yourself. And as you do that, you’ll realize that you will start meeting a LOT of new and people who are interested in the stuff that you like. Your life will become full, you’ll have many more friends, and you will become busy, more fulfilled, and happy. And it will show.

    THAT is when it becomes easy to attract women, when you yourself come to the table with an exciting life, your own interests, adventures, and passions. And as a bonus, you will not smell of desperation or counterfeit appeasement. Your Life is fine (with or without a woman) and that gives you the confidence to take things as they come. Strangely, this makes you a lot easier with women, more confident, more interesting and more attractive.

    ALL of the things that you’re trying to fake with PUA textbooks will come as naturally as breathing, except that they will be the true things, not the dingy shadows of reality that PUA tries to borrow in order to simulate the reality of confidence and attraction.

    But alas, actually changing ones own life, taking responsibility for one’s own personal happiness, and focussing on something other than your sex drive for a period of time, is asking too much of most guys.

    It’s just so much easier to read a book and simulate confidence.

  110. @Raguel,

    “Except that I have never suggested what you claim I suggest.”

    Sigh … let me spoon feed it to you… Lets analyze a bit (it will require some thinking on your part but I will hold your hand. No worries)
    (1) I said:“… Its sure ain’t the personality that changes after a few trials. I hope not. ..”
    Which means I do not think personality changes measurably after a few trials. Does not mean I think personality *never* changes.

    (2) You respond to my statement: “ a man’s personality is not static and unchanging ..”
    Which implies you suggest personality *does* change with just a *few* meetings with women because I *never* said it doesn’t change.

    (3) I again politely explain to you: I “… do not expect personality change on the time scale you mentioned…”
    Again, its the time scale that is important. Its like saying the sun is cooling down without mentioning over what time scale.

    (4) At this point you completely go off topic and start attacking me personally instead of defending you position from step (2). Claiming I do not comprehend language, yet responding to me. This part baffles my mind.

    (5) I again ask you to defend your position instead of personal attack.

    (6) Now you claim you never suggested what you clearly did.

    I can understand that some people flip-flop and deny in person to save face, if nothing else. What I do not understand is what prevents you from at least trying to be brave behind your anonymous handle ‘Raguel’? Anonymity gives you the power to say what you really think and defend it, instead of flip-flopping.

    If you want to debate, stay on the topic and stop denying your statements when they are indefensible. Personal attacks only make you seem weak.

    John Doe, ill and suffering from a terrible case of Raguel

  111. Sorry been sick, and I see things have jumped. I think turning to Yin Yang does make it easier to break down, which I was thinking of before so I’m glad you turned it to that. I don’t really mind placing masculinity as Yang, so long as it is clear. My preference would be to be to keep it more closer to what it means to be a “man.” When it comes to what phenomenons may happen that we were saying were male or female those I would prefer to keep more closely defined as Yin and Yang.

    I will also ad that most interactions are not pure yang or yin, but hold various aspects of both. One problem I would have with defining it purely as Yang is that “a man of all seasons,” would for me imply that the the dynamics of Yin Yang will change, but the person could in a way that is fairly harmonious with each context.

    When it comes to Vadar being Yang and being hyper-masculine, I think there is also something there. I would say what makes him emasculated at that time is that there much be some balance with Yin. The interaction of femininity is important to masculinity. Which perhaps is part of the reason why I think that one must be concerned with masculinity when it comes to AM being on the short end of the IR relative to the AF. If that interaction is not there it could result in emasculation or hyper-masculation (although I would say at the heart of it is both emasculation.)

    A male can find that female/yin interaction outside of a romantic relationship with a female. That is important especially with a person that is single, and I think even to a person with a relationship. Any relationship will go through times of unbalance, you cannot always count on it to fulfill you.

    So I think when we look at the “Nice Guy” it does make for a good social contract fit for a child. It fits a child’s cognitive ability at that time, as well as lack of experience. A mature person should be able to pass onto to something that is itself more sophisticated. Life is not fair and it may even hand you the same circumstance of Job. A social contract can be broken, but you do not have to be.

    I would say you should try to do the right thing, not to get your fulfillment of the social contract, but to maintain a certain moral leverage to maintain your resolve when times get rough. It may be one thing to use Game, but it use it unethically to use and abuse another. If your upset at the lack of justice and decide to do the unethical, the guilt and shame will soon enough turn on you and you will condemn yourself.

    I guess to sum it up internally you want to center yourself on being a man. In another way try to maintain a certain harmony of Yin and Yang forces in a certain context given that you may tend to have a greater tendency towards Yang. You are who you are, take that and make sure you temper excesses and shore up what you lack. Only from that center you are truly ready to interact with people in a mature way.

    Of course that is easier than it sounds, so sometimes with inexperience you may have to make due with what you can and you will make your mistakes. If you hit a dead end try something different. A person’s interactions with females may not always be the best, you may try out negs, rev, whatever and see how it works. Just make sure you keep what you are responsible for and don’t cross into the unethical.

  112. I refuse to reveal any further personal details because people have made it abundantly clear that it will be used in ad hominem put-downs. Byron, I’d like it if your blog can be a space for AMs to talk freely and openly about things that still matter a lot without the sermonizing. But that’s your call. Whether or not you agree with Game or even know what it is, I don’t think you give AMs credit for trying to move beyond endlessly airing whiny grievances to making an effort at SOMETHING. Don’t you agree that’s a step in the right direction?

    1) Is this REALLY you? Is it going to be sustainable over the long term as your own personality, or are you going to have to live your life as somebody else in order to feel loved? That is going to wear you down, as time goes on.

    The truth is we all, without exception, go through life wearing some kind of a mask, do we not? Or masks. Only God knows who we really are deep down.

    I believe that many AMs live such repressed lives that they don’t know who they are anyway. The “real self” never came out of the closet. Thus, AMs themselves default to stereotypical image and behavior. It’s safe. Don’t complain to me how media depicts AMs because that’s just simply a mirror.

    The real question we ought to be asking ourselves is:

    The “emasculated AM”…is that REALLY you?

    If not, then what are you doing about it to challenge it?

    Gays are coming out of the closet to declare they’re gay, agitating for their rights and acceptance, and screw what anybody thinks.

    Why are more AMs not coming out of the closet to express that we are masculine beings with a working set of balls? And, btw, FUCK anyone who gets in the way.

    True intimacy occurs when a man and a woman can unmask themselves before each other physically, emotionally, and spiritually because they are in love. But save the talk of love for your 30th wedding anniversary.

    In the beginning, there is only sexual attraction. Women talk of “chemistry” or “sparks”. Students of Game prefer to call it “vagina tingle”. How many of you have heard “I didn’t feel chemistry or sparks with you” a lot from girls? Then whatever the hell it is you’re doing is not making her vagina tingle. You need to learn Game.

    2) What are you willing to do to her? Are you willing to make her insecure enough to “love” you? Knocking her self-esteem down as a matter of course? Withholding your affection as a means of control? Is this going to make her the girl of your dreams, or a warped and fading shadow of the young woman you once knew?

    I sense terms like tease, neg, DHV, etc bother lots of laypeople. This is simply specialized vocabulary to represent certain concepts that would otherwise be too cumbersome for words. I see people trying to paint Game in a ridiculous light because it uses terminology that “regular people” don’t understand.

    I’ll give an example of DHV:

    My work supervisor tells me that he needs to take a few days off . I jokingly and playfully respond: “OK, you have my permission”. He laughs and says “whatever” or “fuck you”.

    It’s a familiar routine that I have with my superiors. This is an example of DHV.

    What happened here? Am I trying to make him insecure? Lower his self-esteem? Trying to control him with wicked mind tricks?

    Realize also that these terms are obviously stripped of any body language.

    All I’m saying Kobu is to be true to the person that you are.

    This is a variation of that old cliche: “just be yourself”.

    I want to point out something. A cornerstone of PUA is to never put a woman on a pedestal. If you spend a lot of time & energy strategizing how to best “catch” a specific girl, your actions are saying this girl is very important to you. So in a way, you are indirectly putting her on a pedestal. (in ur case it might be ok, since I suspect you’re trying to do a PUA social experiment)

    There is a difference between fish and learning to be an expert fisherman.

    Look, you are bringing up a metaphysical point which on Byron’s blog is an invitation to segue into an inane, pie-in-the-sky, long-winded feat of mental masturbation that is boring as shit.

    But I want to address this because there seems to be some assumptions behind it that I want to question.

    The reason why a man puts a particular woman on a pedestal is because he feels his options are limited. Also called one-itis. Game liberates you from the claustrophobic grip of feeling like you have little or no options. Hey, if this one doesn’t work out then move on to the next one, right? But you gotta have the skill-set to even think like that. You would agree that its hard to write a Game plan without mentioning a specific girl, although it may seem like it’s putting that girl on a pedestal. No. Putting a “woman on a pedestal” looks more like preparing carefully thought out gifts or waiting with flowers at the airport before securing attraction because a clueless one had nothing to go by except romance movie cliches and “common wisdom”.

    Also, what is wrong with investing time and energy learning to be good with women? Why is that different from investing time and energy to learn four semesters of calculus (which you’ll probably never need in your life) or a professional skill? Seriously why? As long as we’re dwelling on metaphysics, what’s the difference?

    If you are an AM and were subject to the usual atrocities that bearing the Model Minority burden entails, you did not have a normal life. In fact, it would behoove you to put some serious effort for once to acquiring Game.

    AsianGuy, here’s a Game tip (free of charge):

    Kudos BTW on being the uncommon AM bro who’s open to dating non-Asian chicks. As you may already know, kino and innuendo for building sexual tension is critical for inducing vagina tingles. And with the AM image being what it is, that stuff is vital for us. When you’re out in a Korean restaurant, treat her to some galbi. Everyone loves marinated Korean BBQ beef. Seductively and playfully say to her, “I love a girl who enjoys having big, juicy Korean meat in her mouth”. If that makes her vag tingle, she’s gained favor in your estimation. Don’t know if you’re Korean but you get the idea.

  113. “The truth is we all, without exception, go through life wearing some kind of a mask, do we not? Or masks. Only God knows who we really are deep down.”

    Yes. But YOU KNOW what I’m talking about.
    (There is a mask that is a face of you and there is a mask that is you playing someone else)

    “I believe that many AMs live such repressed lives that they don’t know who they are anyway. The ‘real self’ never came out of the closet. Thus, AMs themselves default to stereotypical image and behavior. It’s safe. Don’t complain to me how media depicts AMs because that’s just simply a mirror.”

    I think that’s what I was saying on one of these threads. It’s not about reading a technical manual on women, it’s about finally taking the TIME to truly discover yourself, and set boundaries based on YOUR own priorities. It’s about finding your own happiness and your own style before the woman even comes into the picture.

    “The “emasculated AM”…is that REALLY you?

    I agree. All the more reason to spend the time truly defining oneself on one’s own terms.

    Get back later… when my boss isn’t STARING at me!!

  114. @John Doe,

    Nice effort you put into your explanation. However it sounds like you’re trying really hard to convince yourself, and you still sound confused.

    This is the only courtesy I can extend to you – pointing out that you are a confused man. I do not know how to help your confusion any more than a non-healthcare worker knows how to clean up the shit smeared all over a retarded boy.

    P.S: If anybody else needs a clarification on the matter I would be happy to explain of course. However it appears at this moment that the disagreement here is only between myself and some developmentally challenged person.

  115. @Kobukson

    Your person comes into question only because you preach PUA as some sort of necessary salvation for the Asian man.

    If that was true then as a practitioner of PUA you would be LIVING PROOF by now, wouldn’t you?

    However the experiences with women you have shared with us… even the good bits are mundane and easily achieveable without your PUA “game”.

    In lieu of testimonial that PUA actually works we have long post after long post of sermons on how PUA “game” is the best thing since… buttered bread.

    Keep on preaching your ideals about what OTHER Asian men should do. We all know that you turned to PUA only because of your OWN shortcomings, and also that you have – despite your lengthy sermons – barely started yourself.

    As long as you preach these nonsensical ideas here you can expect people to call you out on it.

  116. @King

    I appreciate your efforts at consistently speaking on the PUA matter. It is sadly necessary, if PUA dogmas and doctrines become prevalent they will only cause men to become more out of touch with reality. I have seen this with my own eyes.

    The only reason PUAs consistently refute everything you have said is because you don’t mercilessly exploit and browbeat them like the PUA gurus and forum junkies do. In their warped minds and solely because of this you are not an authority.

    If they put the words of their own PUA gurus and lives of their fellow PUAs under scrutiny they might come to the conclusion that PUA “game” is just bullshit. However they have been seduced by the idea of power and control over women.

    You see…. many PUAs feel that their manhood has been stolen by women. ROFL

  117. @raguel, i think you’re pathetic. Initially i thought you were a bitter asian woman, but now I believe you’re just a narcissistic internet troll. You make strawman argument after strawman argument.

    You selectively pick and distort statements out of context to debate. You straight up ignore counterpoints and rebuttals. (im not referring to ur scat w/john doe)
    http://www.flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/nitpick.htm

    Yet, you clearly have the time to write lengthy diatribes “judging” & lecturing kobukson, PUA, making ad hominem attacks.

    (give me a few days, I’ll respond to why SOME PUA can offer AMs a way for improvement with women. I said some pua not all pua)

  118. @Asianguy

    What’s the matter son? You angry or mad that I didn’t take the time to address your lengthy posts?

    “You selectively pick and distort statements out of context to debate. You straight up ignore counterpoints and rebuttals.”

    More accurately, what I have written is not “out of context” as you put it, but merely out of the context YOU wish to debate on. Try to keep your personal feelings out of the debate, it might help you maintain peace of mind.

    Oh, and I do apologise for neglecting your posts completely. I realise now how much you wanted me to address the points you brought up. In your credit they do deserve a well thought out and written answer, however I simply did not have the time to address them one by one. It’s nothing personal. However, my initial answer to your ideas about PUA remains relevant and accurate.

    YOU ARE NOT INVOLVED, YOU ONLY LISTEN TO PUA PODCASTS AND READ PUA WRITINGS, YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN PUAs IN ACTION NOR MET REAL LIFE PUAs, YOU ARE TALKING OUT OF YOUR ARSE.

    Have I made myself clear? I know you want more of my time, but you’ll have to make do with this for now. 🙂

  119. Raguel: “Kobukson, Your person comes into question only because you preach PUA as some sort of necessary salvation for the Asian man.”

    when does he ever preach PUA as a “NECESSARY” salvation? I’ve said it before. A lot of people just pre judge all forms of PUA w/out knowing much about it.

    i admit, ive never paid for PUA material, or met a PUA instructor. Have you? however, i have read, listened, watched on youtube free PUA material. Yea, i sift through some cheesy bullshit. At the same time, i find SOME stuff that is pretty good and very useful for all men.

    Your take is that ALL PUA is useless bullshit. That’s my point of contention with you.

  120. raguel, you just did it again. i’ll just cut n paste what i wrote earlier.

    You selectively pick and distort statements out of context to debate. You straight up ignore counterpoints and rebuttals. (im not referring to ur scat w/john doe)
    http://www.flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/nitpick.htm

    Yet, you clearly have the time to write lengthy diatribes “judging” & lecturing kobukson, PUA, making ad hominem attacks.

  121. Yes, that is in fact my contention.

    You actually brought up some points that I really wanted to address but did not have time to do so. I actually saved a copy in Word and was drafting out a reply.

    For example, at one time, you posted these videos from Kasia of the now defunct revolution31 PUA company. I had a look, and everything, EVERYTHING she said about how and what to do in a club, was plain COMMON SENSE.

    It’s the kind of stuff that a guy could learn how to do just by going to the clubs himself without PUA and with friends instead, letting loose, keeping his eyes open, and genuinely having fun with everybody there.

    So you might be thinking, right? You might think “See, there is useful, common sense information out there in PUA”.

    What *I* am thinking is, “Should guys even be PAYING people to TEACH them common sense, instead of developing it themselves?”

    Much that is written by PUAs about club game is pure nonsense. You will acknowledge that. For every common sense PUA video or advice you can find, you yourself know there are hundreds out there that are grossly misleading and ridiculous, much of it even harmful.

    So this is the choice: develop your own common sense and trust in yourself, or pay to be spoonfed, and buyer beware that you might be blindly gulping down heaping spoonfuls of PUA feces.

  122. The nitpick supposedly picks up facts and arguments totally irrelevant to the argument.

    This is different to what I am doing, which is merely arguing on a different context than the one YOU want to LIMIT the debate to.

    But Asianguy, you are guilty of something even bigger than nitpicking.

    You have never been involved in PUA, you have only watched podcasts and read PUA posts.

    Therefore everything you have written in defence of PUA is IRRELEVANT.

  123. In fact Asianguy, what you have written is worse than irrelevant, what you have written in defence of PUA is complete, utter BULLSHIT.

  124. Just ignore him. It’s clear by now that he has an axe to grind because he dabbled in PUA himself and something happened. Maybe some guru was brutally frank with him and he’s still butt-hurt about it. Who knows? I don’t give a shit but obviously my rhetoric is reminding him of something or someone. So he needs to lash out at me and against Game to rationalize the decision he made for himself, which is to let natural selection weed him out. Game is not for everyone.

  125. LOL, you really have to speak for yourself regarding natural selection, Kobukson. It might be true that without PUA “game” no woman would be with you.

    As they say in PUA circles,

    “Stop projecting”.

    😉

  126. Kobu: “Also, what is wrong with investing time and energy learning to be good with women?”

    you’re preaching to the choir.

    I wasn’t clear enough before. Strategizing about a specific girl is good, i’m just saying strategizing about multiple girls simultaneously is even better. If you dont got multiple girls to strategize, approach more.

  127. Kobu,

    You’ll be happy you didn’t mention the card.

    It was good talking to you on the phone today, if only briefly. If I might offer an ad-hominem compliment, you’re one of the more interesting people with your art, mechanical skills, etc. I don’t know the details (yet) of what went down with the 39 year old woman, but I’ll leave it at that.

    Could I ask one question? Just one question only. Why do these PUAs have more authority in your mind than anyone else?

    I think of the years I spent researching their movement. They all said they wanted long term relationships, but none of them had any. They talked about how attractive they are, but so most women found them repulsive. The Better Asian Man talked about the ethics of dating, but he wasn’t ethical. I’m just wondering why YOU personally like what they preach and take their word on life over the word of, say, King or Catwalq. It’s not ad-hominem, just a solicitation for a simple opinion. Logically, I’m not following your reasoning.

    King and Catwalq,

    Both of you are offering great advice. I hope people take it.

    People who find their own passions become interesting people. They fall in love. They raise families. They don’t play games. Their focus is on being effective good people, and other areas of their life fall into place.

    True, people tease and make jokes. I do it all the time. But when jokes replace substance, that’s a problem. Having no substance is a problem. PUAs build no substance.

  128. I wasn’t clear enough before. Strategizing about a specific girl is good, i’m just saying strategizing about multiple girls simultaneously is even better. If you dont got multiple girls to strategize, approach more.

    Strategizing.

    LMAO

    And just like that you shoot yourself in the foot and shit all over everything you’ve posted here, even the little that had some substance.

    P.S: Jaehwan its your call because its your blog. I don’t know Kobukson personally so I’ll call him out on his distortions and otherwise post and respond as I would normally. But if you need me to tone it down a little just say the word.

    Cheers.

  129. Jman,

    My difference would be this–being a man is culturally determined, being yang (or masculine) is not. If society dictates that real men don’t eat quiche, then real men don’t. If society dictates that it’s the manly thing to wear a green sock on your head, then that’s what real men do. Being masculine, on the other hand, is simply using yang energy.

    I’m hoping to write up another blog post, maybe next week about being a man. When we say that Asian men are emasculated, I think losing masculinity is part of it, but I think what it really means is that society hinders our ability to be men.

    Would you say that Vader was a man?

    I may be backtracking on what I said above (I don’t remember!), but I think being a man can is positive depending on frame. Vader was very manly according to the code among the people with whom he lived. Actually I think he was manly with most others too.

  130. Notty,

    “Kobu’s basic plan can be boiled down to playing hot and cold– something many many women do, without having a downpour of moral indignation thrown at them.”

    Well, there’s some teasing going on too, but point taken. Since we’re talking about manliness, I do think there’s some kind of social stigma for men to become men, whereas women aren’t supposed to “become” women by any kind of emotional shift.

    Remember, in this culture–and maybe in all cultures–men are supposed to be the pursuers. And they’re supposed to “act like men.” I’m not saying it’s right; just saying that it’s the way it is.

    I hope to include some of this in that future blog post.

    The description he gave was a retrospect in light of what he learned from PUA (I assume). What he described amounts to courtship (“supplication”), and what’s expected of guys. Maybe he failed to “confess” before she put a stop to it, I don’t know.

    Yes, I don’t know either. Kobu, the world is wondering! I don’t think anyone will attack you if you ask for compassion! 🙂

    By the way, I’m changing my definition.

    To be masculine is to embody brave and aggressive action towards the fulfillment of one’s explicit main goals.

    I don’t know if masculinity has anything to do with society’s goals. A guy who stepped up to Chris Leben would be seen as masculine, even if what he did was stupid and condemned by society.

    I think “being a man” is always cultural. In Puerto Rico, I’m sure there was a more boisterous and louder expectation of manliness than in a quiet country like Japan. Similarly, perhaps Asian men will have to somewhat adjust to the American definition of manliness when they move to the U.S.

    Here’s an interesting one. Asian men have to adjust their definition because there are more outward displays of masculinity for American men, but Brazilian men may not have to make the adjustment because their culture already prizes a greater level of loud masculinity for Brazilian men. In fact, a White American man moving to Brazil might have to step up. (Well practically not–since he has colonialism working in his favor.)

  131. kobu and Raguel,

    No worries! It’s a good discussion.

    Kobu:

    Byron, I’d like it if your blog can be a space for AMs to talk freely and openly about things that still matter a lot without the sermonizing. But that’s your call. Whether or not you agree with Game or even know what it is, I don’t think you give AMs credit for trying to move beyond endlessly airing whiny grievances to making an effort at SOMETHING. Don’t you agree that’s a step in the right direction?

    Hmm. Well, you’re definitely doing a good thing by not just sitting back and getting rolled over.

    But again, I wonder if you’re listening to the right people, and I wonder if it might make sense to listen to people who have had some success with this dating thing. Who do you think is “sermonizing?” Me? King? Catwalq? Raguel?

    If you’re looking for somewhere to just rant without any women or married people to challenge your ideas, there’s already a forum for that on APB’s site. Of course the average IQ level of commenters drops by about fifty points from bigWOWO to that site… 🙂 Also the amount of sex that commenters have also drops precipitously.

    No, seriously, I like it when you speak freely. But just realize that people here will always chime in if they see problems in your approach. That’s a good thing, no?

    By the way, what did you think of the Korean American roundtable?

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/03/korean-american-love/

    I thought they had some interesting things to say about love and marriage.

  132. @ Kobukson:
    Reading this thread, I was beginning to warm up to your explanations of the value of PUA. And then I read this:
    Seductively and playfully say to her, “I love a girl who enjoys having big, juicy Korean meat in her mouth”. If that makes her vag tingle, she’s gained favor in your estimation
    …and I almost spat out my coffee.
    For real? This works for you? If it does, then I won’t argue with the results, and I’m sure some are gonna buy this stuff, but for at most women I imagine not only does this not work, but it’d actually be a massive setback.

  133. bigWOWO,

    It is a difference. I can see defining what “being a man” is according to society for a sociologist. I just think it is folly to do so for a person. In many ways one can never fully attain it, and even if that person does it can be a hollow. I would take off the locality of concern as much off of society as possibly, and keep it on what one can control, which is oneself. If one can have the ability to love and serve another very much by one’s own means, I don’t think one should really feel emasculated. If you cannot find some girl to hitch up to you, take that time to improve yourself such as King wrote about. Also you can usually you can always find someone to love and serve in some capacity. I may say that being a man is more determined by living to your nature, in the sense you should sweep away an overextension by society, and keep to measures that seem correct to you. I mean I know if I put in an honest day of work in or just dogged it.

    If Violet isn’t going to think of you as a man that she would want to be with cause you don’t have enough money, prudence should tell you its far better to walk away for the both of you. It’s her fear of lack of money, not your ability to not be man enough. If the crap hits the fan, it may be you still standing and her running away. Well one may not know, crisis can test people in a new way. But why be with someone who is going to lack resolve when times get rough?

    Perhaps I would even say that it is who society crowns as the epitome of “being a man” may be anything but. The ones who have it easiest may have the biggest doubts. The guys who have it easy getting women, may never know if that person really ever cares about that person. As far as Vader, he may have appeared as manly, but it was disordered. He felt, as Anakin, helpless in being able to protect the ones he loved. As Vader, he could protect his master, but it was disordered. He knew his master held out false promises and betrayed him. He only became a man when the empathy for his son being tortured became more important than his own life.

  134. YOU ARE NOT INVOLVED, YOU ONLY LISTEN TO PUA PODCASTS AND READ PUA WRITINGS, YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN PUAs IN ACTION NOR MET REAL LIFE PUAs, YOU ARE TALKING OUT OF YOUR ARSE.

    In all fairness, how many of the detractors here have seen real PUAs in action? If we’re going to apply that standard, then very few of us would be allowed to have this discussion.

  135. Let’s get real about a couple of things, folks:

    1) The majority of heterosexual men want female companionship in their lives regardless of how satisfying and fulfilling the rest of their lives are. The reverse is also true.

    2) Being happy and fulfilled in other areas of your life does not guarantee you will have a satisfying sex and or love life. It will not magically make you feel confident with the opposite sex– unless those other areas of your life happen to be widely attractive to women (e.g. musicians and performers).

    3) Romantic and sexual experience with women is what will build confidence in that context.

    4) There is nothing wrong with a “fake it ‘till you make it” approach to confidence.

    5) Being proactive about fixing one’s sex life or love life is not wrong.

  136. Reading this thread, I was beginning to warm up to your explanations of the value of PUA. And then I read this:
    Seductively and playfully say to her, “I love a girl who enjoys having big, juicy Korean meat in her mouth”. If that makes her vag tingle, she’s gained favor in your estimation
    …and I almost spat out my coffee.

    Stuff like that can work in the right context or if you have established the right level of familiarity.

    Then again, not all women are delicate flowers. If you want to see how much a person can get away with, check out Nathan and his friend “Grandmaster”: http://www.fastseduction.com/archives/archive%5B2008-03-29%5D_Nathan-Szilard.zip

  137. @John Doe

    @Nottyboy,

    Well thought out post.

    I am trying. Maybe we can achieve a more nuanced view of things around here.

    You might want to check out feministcritics.org. They actually seem to have the intellectual chops that I don’t.

  138. To be masculine is to embody brave and aggressive action towards the fulfillment of one’s explicit main goals.

    I don’t know if masculinity has anything to do with society’s goals. A guy who stepped up to Chris Leben would be seen as masculine, even if what he did was stupid and condemned by society.

    The “society’s goals” didn’t bother me much once we added the “or” clause to it. I agree it isn’t needed though. One’s goals may or may not align to society’s goals, but they’re still one’s goals.

    I think “being a man” is always cultural. In Puerto Rico, I’m sure there was a more boisterous and louder expectation of manliness than in a quiet country like Japan. Similarly, perhaps Asian men will have to somewhat adjust to the American definition of manliness when they move to the U.S.

    Here’s an interesting one. Asian men have to adjust their definition because there are more outward displays of masculinity for American men, but Brazilian men may not have to make the adjustment because their culture already prizes a greater level of loud masculinity for Brazilian men. In fact, a White American man moving to Brazil might have to step up. (Well practically not–since he has colonialism working in his favor.)

    Yeah, I think that what in Latin culture is seen as “manly”, over here gets reframed as “macho” in a slightly negative light, like it’s backwards or uncivilized. On the other hand, I always got a sense that Anglo men back home were perceives as slightly “softer.”

    Of course, all these things are just perceptions.

    And yeah, the “American” image and privilege does sell. There’s a slight mix of resentment, and admiration. Light skin, light hair and light eyes sell. Blue eyed eye contacts make things a lot easier! 🙂

  139. But again, I wonder if you’re listening to the right people, and I wonder if it might make sense to listen to people who have had some success with this dating thing. Who do you think is “sermonizing?” Me? King? Catwalq? Raguel?

    Who says that PUAs haven’t had success dating or sexing? You just have to look past the wannabe-gurus.

  140. Hey there, Notty!

    “2) Being happy and fulfilled in other areas of your life does not guarantee you will have a satisfying sex and or love life. It will not magically make you feel confident with the opposite sex– unless those other areas of your life happen to be widely attractive to women (e.g. musicians and performers).”

    Anybody, ask yourself if being happy about who you are, and how your life is going will make you more confident overall? Now ask yourself if that will or will not also translate into the sexual arena?

    Having your own life together and finding your own happiness is the basis of ANY happy relationship with other people.

    “3) Romantic and sexual experience with women is what will build confidence in that context.”

    There are PLENTY of guys who have a false confidence in themselves sexually based on the fact that they have slept with a few/many women. The truth is that they are great in inducing FAKE orgasms.

    If you aren’t taking care of your own life outside of bed, then it’s going to effect your performance in the bed.

    “4) There is nothing wrong with a ‘fake it ‘till you make it’ approach to confidence.”

    Yes, there is, because you’re not going to “make it.”

    Confidence isn’t like putting on an Armani suit and believing that it will eventually change your personality by wearing it. You HAVE to deal with figuring out who you REALLY are and what it is that really makes you happy. A GIRL is not going to make you happy when the rest of your life is an empty cavern. STOP thinking that having SEX with a woman is some kind of magical panacea, it’s NOT.

    “5) Being proactive about fixing one’s sex life or love life is not wrong.”

    On this I agree. But start with JUST LIFE.

    Seriously, how many guys have ever taken the time to truly define themselves?
    When you know what you want, you ARE more confident about EVERYTHING.

    Relationships with women are part of life, they are not the basis of life. Like I said, it may be counterintuitive, but you really need to focus on what it is that truly makes you happy before you can find it, or even recognize it.

    Don’t fake it. Live the real.

  141. “ARRRGH!!! Stupid bold!!!!”

    Yeah, I was wondering you were shouting so much.

  142. King: “5) Being proactive about fixing one’s sex life or love life is not wrong.”

    On this I agree. But start with JUST LIFE.

    can’t we do both at the same time?

  143. Asianguy:

    PUAs don’t do both at the same time. Self-help gurus do. I haven’t seen anyone recommend taking a Tony Robbins course here.

  144. Hey there, Notty!

    Hey King. You’ve been away for a while!

    “2) Being happy and fulfilled in other areas of your life does not guarantee you will have a satisfying sex and or love life. It will not magically make you feel confident with the opposite sex– unless those other areas of your life happen to be widely attractive to women (e.g. musicians and performers).”

    Anybody, ask yourself if being happy about who you are, and how your life is going will make you more confident overall? Now ask yourself if that will or will not also translate into the sexual arena?

    Having your own life together and finding your own happiness is the basis of ANY happy relationship with other people.

    That sounds like a trick question. If you’re not happy with how your sex or love life is going, then you’re not going to be happy with how your whole life is going, because your sex and love life are part of your whole life.

    I still say that you can be happy with the other areas of your life, and still be unsuccessful in your sex life or love life. Not everything that satisfies the other areas of your life will necessarily help you in the area of women. There is a difference between having a lifestyle that’s attractive to others, and having a lifestyle that’s satisfying to YOU.

    “3) Romantic and sexual experience with women is what will build confidence in that context.”

    There are PLENTY of guys who have a false confidence in themselves sexually based on the fact that they have slept with a few/many women. The truth is that they are great in inducing FAKE orgasms.

    If you aren’t taking care of your own life outside of bed, then it’s going to effect your performance in the bed.

    This is so broad a statement that I don’t even know what you’re specifically talking about, King. Job? Health? Money? Hobbies? I will say that sexual skill is sexual skill, and barring some psychological issue or medical issue, you don’t necessarily lose them as a result of some other area of your life.

    As for fake orgasms, there are also plenty of players who can rock a woman in bed. It says nothing about the need to build experience in order to increase competence and, in turn, confidence in that context. Without that, a guy will have a hard time getting a peck on the lips, let alone actually having sex with a woman and learning how to please a woman.

    “4) There is nothing wrong with a ‘fake it ‘till you make it’ approach to confidence.”

    Yes, there is, because you’re not going to “make it.”

    I made it, King. So have others. Including almost every inexperienced youngster out there who is learning to step up to girls for the first time. The more their competence in this area increases, the more their confidence in their ability to step up to women grows.

    Confidence isn’t like putting on an Armani suit and believing that it will eventually change your personality by wearing it. You HAVE to deal with figuring out who you REALLY are and what it is that really makes you happy. A GIRL is not going to make you happy when the rest of your life is an empty cavern. STOP thinking that having SEX with a woman is some kind of magical panacea, it’s NOT.

    But I’m not advocating success with women as some magical panacea, King. What I keep saying, and what keeps getting ignored, is that a man’s life may be great in other areas except his sex or love life. Lacking confidence in this particular area of one’s life is possible, and it doesn’t automatically mean one’s life is an “empty cavern”– that’s only an assumption you are making, and it’s going to be categorically wrong in many cases.

    “5) Being proactive about fixing one’s sex life or love life is not wrong.”
    On this I agree. But start with JUST LIFE.

    Seriously, how many guys have ever taken the time to truly define themselves?
    When you know what you want, you ARE more confident about EVERYTHING.

    And others’ reported experiences say otherwise.

    Perhaps when someone says that they are happy and fulfilled with other areas of their lives, one should take it on good faith that they actually know their own emotional states and their own lives better than any of us do. Nothing is more annoying than having others second-guess what you are actually feeling or thinking about your own life.

    Relationships with women are part of life, they are not the basis of life. Like I said, it may be counterintuitive, but you really need to focus on what it is that truly makes you happy before you can find it, or even recognize it.

    I don’t need to be told that, because I already know it. Talking about a specific problem, namely “talking to women”, is not the same as advocating that men make women the basis of your life. Nowhere in this blog, or in the Fighting44s, or anywhere else have I done that.

  145. PUAs don’t do both at the same time. Self-help gurus do. I haven’t seen anyone recommend taking a Tony Robbins course here.

    J,

    Look up “lifestyle game.”

    I will say, however, that oftentimes all you need is a personality. That’s why it is possible for complete losers to mack on women (and I mean it in the sense of having them bankroll your lifestyle).

  146. LOL, you really have to speak for yourself regarding natural selection, Kobukson. It might be true that without PUA “game” no woman would be with you.

    I am under the mercy of the forces of natural selection as you or any other swinging dick. And, yes, without Game, no woman will want to be with me.

    The difference between me and you, however, is that regardless of what happens, I am determined to put up a good fight. At the end of the day, whether I have a good woman beside me or not, I want to be able to say

    I have fought a good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

  147. What do you do when you don’t have time to answer everything but you have a little time to answer a little bit?

    BTW, thanks for the fix, Byron!

    Hey there, Notty. Yeah, I had a death in the family that took me away for a little while. Good to see you back with such a vengeance though 🙂

    “If you’re not happy with how your sex or love life is going, then you’re not going to be happy with how your whole life is going, “

    Actually this is patently false. The idea that you HAVE to be boinking somebody in order to be happy in your life is a misconception that puts your own happiness in the hands of another person rather than on yourself. It also says that there is something wrong or incomplete about a guy when he’s not dating a woman. That is not true.

    Many complete persons [not all] seek out a RELATIONSHIP with another person that includes sex as part of that intimacy. But the idea that if you don’t have ongoing vagina access, then you can’t be happy is prima facie nonsense.

    I’m just saying that it’s about getting your own priorities in order. You can work TOWARD being ready for a relationship, but in the mean time, it’s OK to take a break and work on yourself—not how to get a woman, work on YOU.

    You CANNOT do both at once, any more than you can fix the engine block and race the car at the same time.

    Back later, I hope…

  148. Why do these PUAs have more authority in your mind than anyone else?

    Byron, you make me repeat myself.

    But I’ll say it again because maybe something is getting lost in all the cross-talk:

    Maybe its because I make a distinction between Game itself and the flawed personalities who may be behind it.

    Perhaps it’s because I recognize the merits of Game and what it can do to aid the cause of AM empowerment, given all the predicaments that we commonly struggle with which you are perfectly aware of.

    Perhaps it’s because I’ve experienced the power of learning and applying Game in my own life in just a very short time and managed to unlock a hidden part of myself which had been previously dormant that I barely knew existed.

    Perhaps its because Game has enabled me view my environment and the people in it in a whole new way, like suddenly being given night-vision goggles where it was previously dark.

    Maybe its because my continued personal growth and transformation into what can properly be called a masculine AM and the general cause of AM empowerment is much more compelling than the antics of a couple of PUAs named William and Tran. You seem very fixated on the personalities within the PUA cottage industry. What is it exactly? Is it the feather hats or their peacocking ways? I admit those kinds of things are quite flashy and attention-getting.

    Perhaps Game speaks to me in a way, being where I am in life right now, that may not for a guy who is married and up to his neck in domesticity, kids, and other life concerns.

    Perhaps it’s because despite being a God-fearing Christian, I do not have this knee-jerk urge to demonize and condemn something that seems unorthodox, definitely unconventional, and *gasp* may have something to do with sex.

    Perhaps I don’t care as much about appeasing the feminists and the politically-correct.

    Byron, I’ve laid out all my card and then some about why I am a proponent of Game. You need to come clean about why you are so against it to the point where you seem to want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    Having no substance is a problem. PUAs build no substance.

    OK, except PUAs do not claim to build character or substance. At least, not to my understanding.

    This may not be the most accurate analogy but a proper way to view Game is that it does for a man what cosmetics does for a woman. Lipstick, mascara, and perfume makes a woman more attractive. It does not give her more substance. Are you gonna go protesting against Revlon or Maybelline telling them to stop selling makeup because it doesn’t give women substance?

    Sir Issac Newton was an incredible man of substance. He also died a virgin. Yes, a man should have substance. The sky is also blue and water is wet. Anything else to add, O Captain Obvious?

    Let me tell you something about substance. I have substance. During college, because a certain tragedy struck my family, I worked full-time in a night shift while taking classes during the day and paid my own way through school. It took me eight years to complete my undergrad studies. I even helped out with my younger sister’s tuition.

    Seriously, I have never met a woman who was impressed by that. That shit is BORING. Unless they can emotionally relate to it somehow, no woman gives a shit about your example of having substance except maybe your own mother. Women may claim they want a man of substance. Game teaches: pay more attention to how a woman behaves as opposed to what she says. Sit back and amuse yourself with the contradictions.

  149. @ Kobukson:
    Reading this thread, I was beginning to warm up to your explanations of the value of PUA. And then I read this:
    Seductively and playfully say to her, “I love a girl who enjoys having big, juicy Korean meat in her mouth”. If that makes her vag tingle, she’s gained favor in your estimation
    …and I almost spat out my coffee.
    For real? This works for you? If it does, then I won’t argue with the results, and I’m sure some are gonna buy this stuff, but for at most women I imagine not only does this not work, but it’d actually be a massive setback.

    Well congratulations, dude. You’ve just discovered that you don’t have a vagina that needs to be tingled.

  150. Last post for today…

    @King

    You’ve logged many a lengthy anti-pua op-eds and I’m trying to catch up to you! . 🙂

    Ok, so this is what you said before:

    “Anybody, ask yourself if being happy about who you are, and how your life is going will make you more confident overall? Now ask yourself if that will or will not also translate into the sexual arena?

    Having your own life together and finding your own happiness is the basis of ANY happy relationship with other people. “

    This is what I said (emphasis mine):

    That sounds like a trick question. If you’re not happy with how your sex or love life is going, then you’re not going to be happy with how your whole life is going, because your sex and love life are part of your whole life.

    What I was saying with this is that the way you phrased the question seemed contradictory. More on that below.

    Actually this is patently false. The idea that you HAVE to be boinking somebody in order to be happy in your life is a misconception that puts your own happiness in the hands of another person rather than on yourself. It also says that there is something wrong or incomplete about a guy when he’s not dating a woman. That is not true.

    What I’m saying is very simple:

    1) You can have other parts of your life together, but not your sex or love life.
    2) Your sex and love life are a part of your life. Unless, of course, you’re asexual.
    3) If your sex and love lives are not together, then only parts of your life are together, not your life as a whole.

    The above is undeniably true. Unless, of course, you are ready to argue that a person’s sex and love lives are not actually a part of his or her life — which would be nonsensical.

    Many complete persons [not all] seek out a RELATIONSHIP with another person that includes sex as part of that intimacy. But the idea that if you don’t have ongoing vagina access, then you can’t be happy is prima facie nonsense.

    That is not what I’m arguing.

    I repeat: a person can feel unhappy about this one area of his life, and at the same time feel happy about other areas of his life. That this person may also desire to feel fulfilled in this one aspect of his life is a healthy normal thing– it is not wrong.

    I’m just saying that it’s about getting your own priorities in order. You can work TOWARD being ready for a relationship, but in the mean time, it’s OK to take a break and work on yourself—not how to get a woman, work on YOU.

    You CANNOT do both at once, any more than you can fix the engine block and race the car at the same time.

    False. People work on many aspects of their lives simultaneously. A lot of successful people don’t quit their jobs to go study at night. A lot of successful people don’t need to dump their girlfriends/boyfriends just because they’re studying for a master’s degree. A lot of successful people don’t stop working out at the gym because just because they’re also working on their career. People handle simultaneous projects all the time.

    Learning to attract women is not an exception. You can easily work on being more competent talking to while you’re working on shoring up other areas of your life.

  151. Kobu,

    Thanks for repeating yourself. I did miss it the first time.

    Byron, I’ve laid out all my card and then some about why I am a proponent of Game. You need to come clean about why you are so against it to the point where you seem to want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

    I wrote an entire blog post on this issue:
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/12/the-post-pua-era-of-the-asian-american-blogosphere/

    That said, I would like to address some specifics in relation to why I’m against it for YOU. For you, I am against PUA because it’s taking you down the wrong path. All your quotes about vagina, about women are this way or that way, needing to be negged, etc. are showing that you’re viewing women as objects and transposing your male-style thinking on them, which is incorrect. This is what the PUAs teach, but it’s not right. That’s why they suck at attracting high quality women.

    I guess maybe I should ask one question that I haven’t, and maybe this will get to the heart of our miscommunication–what is it that you’re looking for from women?

    I’ve seen you say good things about RCR, TZ, Catwalq, etc., but you seem to ignore the fact that negging, etc. doesn’t work with women of that caliber. Their husbands/boyfriends don’t do it. That’s the heart of what I was trying to get at–PUA teaches you to fail. It won’t help you get the kind of women that you like–at least not women similar to the ones on this board whom you like.

    That said, if you’re just looking for some woman to cook, clean, make money, and provide sex, maybe PUA is right. I thought about it, and I do happen to know one guy who negs and DHVs his long-term girlfriend. It’s actually a pretty \solid\ relationship in that I don’t think she’ll ever leave him. He makes backhanded remarks in public about her appearance, makes sexual comments about other women in front of her, etc. And she’ll get mad, but she’ll go running back every time.

    But they’re really an exception. It wouldn’t work for me, nor would it work for most of the people here. For one thing, I’m too nice to have to invent ways to denigrate my wife in public (and probably in private). Second of all, it’s stressful to keep someone on edge like that 24-7–when she’s on edge, you’re on edge. Third of all, I’d have to protect my kids from myself. Their relationship really is a Game: a game of Survivor. I don’t know what else to say except…I guess it works for some people.

    Lipstick, mascara, and perfume makes a woman more attractive. It does not give her more substance. Are you gonna go protesting against Revlon or Maybelline telling them to stop selling makeup because it doesn’t give women substance?

    Lipstick can make a woman look better. I don’t know if I can say the same about negging. I don’t think that’s a good analogy. I’m not protesting against lipstick, but I’m not protesting against Men’s Wearhouse either.

    I didn’t know Newton was a virgin. I knew Mary was.

    Let me tell you something about substance. I have substance. During college, because a certain tragedy struck my family, I worked full-time in a night shift while taking classes during the day and paid my own way through school. It took me eight years to complete my undergrad studies. I even helped out with my younger sister’s tuition.

    Seriously, I have never met a woman who was impressed by that. That shit is BORING. Unless they can emotionally relate to it somehow, no woman gives a shit about your example of having substance except maybe your own mother. Women may claim they want a man of substance. Game teaches: pay more attention to how a woman behaves as opposed to what she says. Sit back and amuse yourself with the contradictions.

    Something isn’t right here, Kobu. How is it even remotely possible that you have never met a woman who was impressed by that? Rich politicians and writers often try to invent rags to riches stories to make them look better. Some won’t talk about their money because they know that it will make it look like they got a handout. So why do rich politicians have to steal your story to make themselves look more attractive, while you, the actual owner of that same story, cannot get people to see it as compelling?

    Something ain’t right. You get where I’m coming from? How is it that you have what others use to make themselves popular, and it’s not making you popular?

    I think you’re presenting yourself wrong. You’re not selling it right. And maybe it’s because you’re seeing women more as objects or as stupid people to be tricked than as full people. That stuff can’t help but come out, you know. If, for example, you tell the story of your background and then talked about your “Korean meat”, you could turn her away, and it wouldn’t be because she didn’t like your background story.

  152. Notty,

    I think we have a definition of masculinity then!

    I have to agree with King. Some, if not most, of these guys are not ready for relationships. They’d best work on other areas of their lives. They’re stuck on one thing, which takes down everything else. It’s hard for some people to work on both because they’ve got misconceptions from PUA training that prevent them from moving ahead.

    Most of these guys don’t have other things going on, and that’s what’s preventing them from getting ahead. And then the PUAs feed them the sexist Kool-Aid, and they’re permanently screwed.

    Jman,

    Hmm. So do you define a male as a “man” by how he treats his family? I think it’s good to treat one’s family well, but I wonder if that really has anything to do with our culture’s version of manliness.

    Check this out–a man puts his relationships second.
    http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2008/05/how-to-be-a-man/

    What do you think of that?

  153. @BIgWowo: *going to try my hand at this italics thingy

    How is it even remotely possible that you have never met a woman who was impressed by that?….I think you’re presenting yourself wrong. You’re not selling it right. And maybe it’s because you’re seeing women more as objects or as stupid people to be tricked than as full people. That stuff can’t help but come out, you know. If, for example, you tell the story of your background and then talked about your “Korean meat”, you could turn her away, and it wouldn’t be because she didn’t like your background story.

    AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    @Kobu: Like I have said, if the women that you meet do not consider stories like the one of how you basically overcame such a tremendous hurdle in your life and not only that but also managed somehow to be strong for your sibling as well; as not interesting, you need to change the venues where you try to meet this women.
    Also, you cannot follow a story like that with a sexual innuendo and definitely not on the first date. There has to be a certain comfort level established before you burst out the “winks and nods”.

    I went to your blog a while back. I found the information about the work you were doing on your car fascinating; possibly because I know very little about machines. There was also the candle making. That was you right? You know, I went online to try and read up on how I could possibly make my own candles, just for fun and because I never knew that making candles was something you could make in your own home (at least if you are not experimenting with voodoo).

    I am telling you this because ordinarily, you came across as an interesting individual. But reading about your PUA-ish, I am thinking that while you have so much to give of yourself, you are under the impression that you need to employ “covert operations” to be with women. And because of that, I am not clear if your immediate needs and concerns are more of physical relief (sex) or something with more longevity, like a marriage. Cos if it is the latter that you are after, I seriously doubt your methods will work. Not unless you are seeking a woman who will be an emotional crutch for the duration of the relationship.

    I would advise you to look to King’s advice. Do something that you love and that is more of a group activity, not because you will have the opportunity to meet females but because it will be fun. If you are having fun, you will exude a lightness of being that could be attractive too. I fear that even if the PUA you want to practice might work temporarily, your approach comes from an unhappy/frustrated place–not good, if you are looking to attract someone.

    Do whatever you want sha, you have to deal with the repercussions anyways.
    I wish you the very best

  154. BigWOWO,

    Oh I see I left Vader hanging. His son’s torture was what moved him, but that didn’t make him a man. The act of killing the Emperor and his master, he set a number of things right. He went from Sith the Jedi. He didn’t kill the Emperor with the same hatred and anger as a Sith, as other Sith apprentices killed their masters to become masters. He killed the Emperor with the desire of a Jedi, not for his power but for what was right. He also did come to terms with using his power to save his family.

    As far as me ‘defining a male as a “man” by how he treats his family?’ I would say yes and no. I think has to be flushed out a bit more. I don’t think I disagree with anything on that website. One reason why I do like using a Yin Yang model is that it is not only about actions and forces it is about relations.

    Now as for ‘defining a male as a man by how he treats his family,’ I would I am meaning something larger than what you are implying. I change ‘treats’ to ‘acts,’ because you do more for a person than how you treat them. You may do the act of going to your job, in order to provide for a child.

    When it comes to family, I would not limit it family. It is more of a relational role, you have an equal and you have people you are responsible over. I would even add you do have a relationship that you are under that you could consider the Right, nature, or God. Your first relationship is with this. The next important relationship is with the equal, and then the lower. This was the primary problem Vader had, he never had the first relationship right.

    To me the with relationships being essential to manhood, in some ways I do think it matters how you act within the family. Sometimes it may just be a relational thing. If you are the boss of others, you do have be concerned with what is right, and then make sure you are setting them up to do their job. At the same time many may be your equals as people, and so they must be treated that way. If you are concerned with issues of AMs in general, you may be treating that as a lower that requires your action. And yet I think the actual family does take special consideration, because it is closer to where all this matters more critically.

    Perhaps to me I have downplayed the importance of a culture’s version of manliness. I think it is a bit of a paradox. It seems like a very Yin thing to me. If society tells me to wear a green hat, I don’t really have a problem with that. If society tells me to smoke, I don’t really care to harm my health in that way. Society often goes off on one excess then to the next. As the website points out you need to be more aligned with what you honestly believe is right. It is a manly thing to decide to go against or with the culture’s version of manliness if you feel you are aligned with the right.

  155. Um, guys? I’m kinda in a pickle now. There’s this other girl interested in me also. She’s half hispanic, half korean. In fact, we had what felt like a date today. It was unexpected. She also knows the ‘pursue me’ girl, whom I haven’t had a chance to ask out yet. But I want to. The problem is we’re all part of the same circle, and I feel like this could get potentially sticky. What do I do?

  156. This is what we call a “high quality problem”. First of all, I’d just like to check if you’ve done your time constraints with them consistently? Time constraints are very important, and have multiple functions. When done when you first meet her, it prevents her from brushing you off like an annoying salesman. When done when you’re dating/ talking with her, it communicates to her that you’ve always got something more important to do. This is a DHV.

    So if you’ve done your time constraints you can move on to the next stage which is…. JEALOUSY PLOTLINE. Ta-daaa!! Jealousy plotlines are simple. You just need to have two girls who are really into you and then you just need to play hot and cold with either of them when they’re right next to each other. The girl you’re not flirting with you likes you and your DHV will become insanely jealous when you flirt with the other girl and will become catty. This is when you contact her afterwards secretly when she still feels competitive and you put the moves on her. Her female instincts will trick her own mind into thinking she’s won some kind of competition to get the alpha male, in this susceptible state it should be really easy for you to escalate without any LMR.

  157. @ Kobu

    Well, it sounds like you have to pick one of the two to pursue.

    But that really goes back to what I was saying about taking the time to work on your own priorities. If you don’t ever take the time to ask yourself all of the important questions, you’ll end up making these decisions based on boob size, or something else of equal meaninglessness.

  158. I reiterate my general support for what Kobu is doing.
    I picture the AM’s predicament with women (workplace and society in general) as analogous to a sports team on a 16 game losing streak. The coach has already tried the usual things like longer practices, studying the play book or game films a little longer or minor tinkering of the line-up. The coach is probably getting suggestions of even longer practices or earlier curfews but at some point, he (or she) has to do something more dramatic and not necessarily logical. He has to demote some of his (on paper) “best players” to the second line and promote some who are not as highly regarded to the top line. Some regular players will have to get use to warming the benches and some bench players will be given their chances. Why does the coach do this? Well for one, the team just ain’t getting it done so will doing more of the same things actually improve the situation? The second is that doing something dramatically different will alter the mindsets of his own players as well opponents and observers.
    I honestly think that AM have to change our mindsets and also try to change the mindsets of the people we have to interact with. Going out more often to do things isn’t nearly enough. I think Kobu’s initiatives should be commended; because the status quo certainly isn’t working.

  159. “I reiterate my general support for what Kobu is doing.”

    As long as you mean, getting out there and dating women, I also agree. I just think that there are some necessary prerequisites.

    “I picture the AM’s predicament with women (workplace and society in general) as analogous to a sports team on a 16 game losing streak. The coach has already tried the usual things like longer practices, studying the play book or game films a little longer or minor tinkering of the line-up. The coach is probably getting suggestions of even longer practices or earlier curfews but at some point, he (or she) has to do something more dramatic and not necessarily logical.”

    I see it a little differently. Same analogy, but I think of a single player who want’s to WIN, win, win, but has never really taken the time to figure out what position he plays. He also has never sat down and tried to fully assess his own weaknesses, strengths, and needs, as a player. He doesn’t know how he fits into the team, or the game. He doesn’t have a relationship with his fellow players, he doesn’t know the game plan, he doesn’t know season win-strategy. All he knows is that he want’s to win and he’ll do ANYTHING to accomplish that…

    However, when at first, he doesn’t win, he decides that it’s desperation time! Instead of correctly realizing that the reason for his losses is based on a lack of overall introspection and understanding of himself, he believes that it’s all about getting better at the GAME itself without ever stopping to assess himself as a player. So he concentrates on learning head fakes, fancy dribbling, and even ways to intimidate and provoke other players (Hey, he’s already tried doing things the nice way—now anything goes)

    But until he deals with who he is as a player, what he wants out of the game, and how he fits into the team, he is never going to be truly successful. The end.

    I’m not saying this all applies to Kobu, but it does reflect a lot of the espoused PUA mentality on “self improvement.”

  160. @King
    Interesting alternative POV although I really didn’t intend for my comment to be analyzed from a PUA slant. I don’t know much about this topic; most of what I know about PUA came from this blog or the old F44s. I’ve been pretty neutral on this topic in the past but might become more skeptical with Maclean’s magazine article entitled “Oprah’s so-called experts”. The article talks about how many of Oprah’s regular guest life “gurus” were in fact total failures in their personal lives in areas where they were supposed be experts. The article itself is not yet available on line but here is a person’s comment http://roseth.blog.ca/2011/03/03/oprah-s-so-called-experts-maclean-s-march-14th-10753874/ on the article.
    What I liked about Kobu’s thinking is that he did look back at what wasn’t working in the past and then formulated a different approach that is significantly different. He made an analysis (rightly or wrongly) of how AMs are viewed by the rest of society and took actions consistent with how to break away from those (negatively stereotyped) views.
    For some reason, Ben’s article “Outsiders” http://benefsanem.blogspot.com/ come to mind. I think it might have to do with how I believe the actions of AM are inconsistent with the adversities that surround us. Anyways, I think that King’s suggestion that we do a bit more introspection about why we are failing is still useful in general but then I think that the eastern culture is already relatively introverted and we do a bit too much introspection sometimes. Besides, Kobu did do some introspection of sorts so I guess many here disagree with his analysis.

  161. King,

    You wrote:

    However, when at first, he doesn’t win, he decides that it’s desperation time! Instead of correctly realizing that the reason for his losses is based on a lack of overall introspection and understanding of himself, he believes that it’s all about getting better at the GAME itself without ever stopping to assess himself as a player. So he concentrates on learning head fakes, fancy dribbling, and even ways to intimidate and provoke other players (Hey, he’s already tried doing things the nice way—now anything goes)

    That’s a great analogy, King. PUA is like pump faking, intimidation techniques, and lots of tricks without the substance. Life, like basketball and all other sports, is best played when you have a good foundation in the fundamentals. Studying PUA without studying life is like learning to elbow your opponent instead of working on your perimeter shot or layup. It may work if you’re playing against a beginner, but it’s not a sustainable long-term strategy.

    Kobu,

    I agree with what King says. It really depends on what you’re looking for and where you want to go. Study the game, not Game.

  162. @N
    that link u gave above is by an asian woman. Her race and gender makes her message suspect. that demographic tends to have very rigid and preformed views of these things.

  163. I see the baskteball analogy differently. Surprised? 🙂

    I see PUA as actually practicing your shots, your defense, your offense, AND actually engaging in the basketball game to sharpen your skills with expereience.

    On the other hand, focusing on everything else to the exclusion of improving your actual skill in sexually attracting women is like a basketball \player\ who only studies the history of basketball, lifts weights to improve his strength, does cardio to improve his endurance, buys the best looking uniform, the best looking sneakers (they gotta be Air Jordans), perhaps even going so far as to using a growth hormone, or surgery, to get taller without actually ever practicing anything directly related to the actual skill of playing basketball.

    So sure, some of those things will make you more athletic (perhaps taller if the surgery/growth hormone works), which will help a person in playing basketball, but it will do you almost no good if you don’t focus on your basketball playing skill.

  164. @King:

    Neglected to let you know I’m sorry about your family loss. 2010 has been a rough year in terms of deaths, for a few people I know personally. Hoping that everyone’s 2011 will be happier.

  165. The problem is we’re all part of the same circle, and I feel like this could get potentially sticky. What do I do?

    You need to start screening them for what you actually want and whether they can handle it. The last thing you want is an angry girl throwing a brick through your window, or worse, turning your friends against you.

  166. Mental block much among the guys defending PUA?

    If PUA really were about skills with women, then why do so many PUAs remain goobers or get even weirder the longer they do PU?

    I imagine that a basketball player becomes better from practice, not worse.

    ROFL!

  167. @Nottyboy

    I noticed you posted some link to some “Nathan Szilard” guy in here somewhere.

    Have you ever met the person?

  168. You need to start screening them for what you actually want and whether they can handle it. The last thing you want is an angry girl throwing a brick through your window, or worse, turning your friends against you.

    What I want is an LTR. I’m not doing this just to get laid.

    BTW, a disclosure: this is all happening within church. Yes, I’m running Game within a church. Furthermore, I did not pick them, They picked me. I’m just doing my thing and these two girls picked me simultaneously.

    After morning service, there’s fellowship in the cafe. So yesterday I was chatting with the ‘pursue me’ girl. I’m just following up with her, trying to feel her out. No game, just regular talk. Then the korean-hispanic girl showed up suddenly, smiles, waves, and says “hi” to me, and then those two starting doing girly talk, and I get shut out. Minutes later, it hit me. I was witness, front and center, to female game. I got cock-blocked. Or the other girl got cunt-blocked, depending on your POV. Basically, the korean-hispanic girl was sending an implicit message to the other girl: “He’s mine. Back off.” I do not say this for self-aggrandizement. Last Saturday, when we had our unplanned, quasi-date, she really made it clear that she wants to go out with me.

    The korean-hispanic girl has a more dominant personality than the “pursue me girl”, who is like a naive, hesitant, innocent type. In fact, the chica is the alpha female of the group. I tried to engage the ‘pursue me’ girl one more time afterwards but she was acting skittish, so i just let it go.

    I realize that I cannot talk to the ‘pursue girl’ in public because that doesn’t make her feel safe. I will talk to her on the phone.

  169. Raguel,

    I never met Nathan or Grandmaster because they’re in France. I did try the approach and it does work on some women, but I only started with the dirty jokes and imagery after I had established they had a sense of humor, and could handle it.

    I have, on the other hand, met and hung out with some of the old guard from the alt.seduction.fast on Usenet. Those guys turned out to be very much the real deal—and I already knew that because the advice either jived with my own experience, or turned out to work once I took a risk with it.

    If you have some sort of baseline experience with this stuff, I believe you can discern between what is very likely to be real, and what is likely to be BS. For example, this guy I didn’t meet, even though he was in Boston and did hang out with one of my acquaintances. I, however, got the sense it was true because it’s very congruent with the way I’ve seen real players operate (regardless of the fact that my acquaintance knew him):

    http://www.fastseduction.com/archives/archive%5B2008-03-29%5D_A2daMIR.zip.

    Now, compare Adamir with a clown like Owen Cook (“Tyler Durden”):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpf1RTn_s5k

    To me the difference is very obvious. And I didn’t even need to see this video of Owen to know he is likely full of it. I had already checked out his field reports and it was very obvious to me they were embellished—which turned out to be true if you listen to his former compadres.

    Anyway, I just know what I’ve seen and lived. I got out there, was fortunate enough to have some people help me early on, and was able to get what I wanted.

    Also, other than real psychological or physical issues, I don’t know why some guys remain goobers. I think you have to look at who they’re listening to, what their beliefs are, and whether they’re using their own brain.

    For example, there is a well known guru who came up with something called the “shock & awe opener.” Another one says that you can break the ice with a girl with “Can I pee in your butt?” And there are actually guys who believe these are good ice breakers…so yeah, if a guy is not using his brain, he’s definitely going to remain a goober.

  170. What I want is an LTR. I’m not doing this just to get laid.

    Then, in my opinion, your need to screen is even greater because you’re the one who’ll have to live with this person in your life. You better like what they’re bringing to the table.

    I personally don’t see any reason not to get to know both of them more in a casual way. Do you feel like you know enough about them to know which one would be a better fit for you?

  171. I reiterate my general support for what Kobu is doing.
    I picture the AM’s predicament with women (workplace and society in general) as analogous to a sports team on a 16 game losing streak.

    James, that’s actually a great metaphor for describing the big-picture and I’m glad you brought it up.

    When a sports team is performing poorly, you have to bring in new methodologies and shake things up.

    I want to add that the performance of AMs, as a “team” in big-picture terms, can also be thought of in terms of OFFENSE and DEFENSE. DEFENSE is shaky, inconsistent, and OFFENSE is almost non-existent.

  172. (J, I had this one on notepad and forgot all about it!)

    Notty,

    I think we have a definition of masculinity then!

    Well, you’ve got my ‘aye’ vote anyway! 🙂 What’s your next step from here?

    I have to agree with King. Some, if not most, of these guys are not ready for relationships. They’d best work on other areas of their lives. They’re stuck on one thing, which takes down everything else. It’s hard for some people to work on both because they’ve got misconceptions from PUA training that prevent them from moving ahead.

    Most of these guys don’t have other things going on, and that’s what’s preventing them from getting ahead. And then the PUAs feed them the sexist Kool-Aid, and they’re permanently screwed.

    That I don’t know, and I admit that the locker room bravado doesn’t show much evidence of an interest in settling down– not yet at least. Remember that a lot of these guys are still relatively young.

    Yet, I also think it bears mentioning that those who are ready for a relationship can still stand to gain from PUA. The problem that they seem to in common is that they have no sex appeal whatsoever. Sometimes they’re even good looking guys, who get that initial interest from women but somehow still end in the friends stage with women because they are “too nice.”

    I do think that the majority are “nerdy” types (and I include myself in that category as a closet nerd). Among students, it seems that engineering, programming, and careers of that sort are overrepresented. I don’t think it’s surprising either, because people who gravitate to those careers tend to have poor social skills, and even poorer skills getting women. The fact that MIT had to include a course on socializing says something:

    http://tech.mit.edu/V117/N1/charm.1n.html
    http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2006/2/6/etiquette-school-how-charming-if-university/
    http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/paper-trail/2009/10/26/mit-teaches-social-skills

    (I don’t even know why it took them until 2006 to figure out this was needed. That’s two years after “The Game” and 7 years after alt.seduction.fast first began to address this lack of resources for men)

    As you said, it is partly a problem of presentation, but I also think people with these backgrounds suffer from a cultural stigma (and that’s not even taking into account ethnicity and race). These careers are not exactly chick magnets, and they are male dominated. Yet, what’s sad is that folks in these fields tend to also be responsible, career oriented, loving people.

    I still disagree on not being able to work on these skills while shoring up other areas of your life. For example, someone who is painfully shy can still practice on getting over that by setting the goal to break the ice with one stranger every day. A reasonable goal like that takes at most an hour of your day or less, and you can do it while going about your day.

    There may be some misconceptions, but I think we’ll probably disagree on what those are. 🙂

    My point always is that there is good advice in PUA that a guy is not likely to find in conventional advice (though recently some of this PUA stuff has penetrated the mainstream). I mean, even something like real pimping has some great advice you’re not likely to find in conventional wisdom in such a powerful form:

    From the Iceberg Slim book:

    He would say, “Always remember whether you be a sucker or hustler in the world out there, you’ve got that vital edge if you can iron-clad your feelings. I picture the human mind as a movie screen. If you’re a dopey sucker, you’ll just sit and watch all kinds of mind-wrecking, damn fool movies on that screen.”

    He said, “Son, there is no reason except a stupid one for anybody to project on that screen anything that will worry him or dull that vital edge. After all, we are the absolute bosses of that whole theatre and show in our minds. We even write the script. So always write positive, dynamic scripts and show only the best movies for you on that screen whether you are a pimp or priest.”

    The amazing thing is that this pimp probably never heard of Bandler, Grinder or Tony Robbins, and yet he still had this awesome piece of advice that is way more effective than a platitude like “think positive.” Do I make sense?

  173. I’ve been painting interior rooms the whole weekend and am starting to feel the effects of sniffing paint, so excuse me if I sound like Siggy, but I wanted to cut in with some brief thoughts.

    Kobu,

    Good to hear that you’re looking long-term.

    You wrote:

    When a sports team is performing poorly, you have to bring in new methodologies and shake things up.

    Word of advice–basics.

    What you described above, Kobu, is a lack of basics. AM may not approach in a good way. That much I agree with. But that’s a basic skill.

    Kobu, you’re telling us about Chica and Pursue Me, but could you please tell us more about the 39 year old single mom? Don’t feel pressure–if you think it should remain private or don’t want it out there, keep it private, or you can tell me offline. HOWEVER…I think it’s relevant to our discussions here because the lack of “game” you describe may just be a lack of not being forthcoming and upfront and blunt enough. Being forthcoming and upfront isn’t “game;” it’s just being forthcoming and upfront. If you’re using your experience to make a statement about Asian men not being forthcoming and upfront, you may be right. Maybe Asian men aren’t as upfront as we need to be within the context of how Americans conduct their dating business.

    But in that case, maybe it’s not that they need new methodologies–maybe they just need to relearn the basics of being upfront and forthcoming. That’s a basic skill that can help not only in your relationships with women, but also your relationships with other men and with work.

    Notty,

    I think we have different definitions of PUA. I think EVERY guy practices either aloud or in his mind what he’s going to say before approaching a woman, especially one he likes, especially when he really doesn’t want to mess up. Every guy does it, virtually without exception. But is this what you call “game?” I just see it as being upfront.

    What’s your next step from here?

    My next step is to finish painting my interior walls. Then after the dizziness clears from my brain on fumes, I can hopefully write a blog post on being a man. And then the next step is to proceed with my book on Asian American IR.

    (This was moved from the other thread. Oops.)

  174. Then, in my opinion, your need to screen is even greater because you’re the one who’ll have to live with this person in your life. You better like what they’re bringing to the table.

    I agree.

    I personally don’t see any reason not to get to know both of them more in a casual way. Do you feel like you know enough about them to know which one would be a better fit for you?

    Not conclusively either way.

  175. Kobu, you’re telling us about Chica and Pursue Me, but could you please tell us more about the 39 year old single mom? Don’t feel pressure–if you think it should remain private or don’t want it out there, keep it private, or you can tell me offline. HOWEVER…I think it’s relevant to our discussions here because the lack of “game” you describe may just be a lack of not being forthcoming and upfront and blunt enough. Being forthcoming and upfront isn’t “game;” it’s just being forthcoming and upfront. If you’re using your experience to make a statement about Asian men not being forthcoming and upfront, you may be right. Maybe Asian men aren’t as upfront as we need to be within the context of how Americans conduct their dating business.

    Byron, if what you mean by “forthcoming” and “upfront” is spelling out in no uncertain terms what my intentions were, then yes, that is what I did. I told her that I liked her, found her attractive, and wanted to date her. No hints, clues, or beating around the bush or anything like that. No games…just straight up honesty. I spent the next few months doing classic nice guy supplicating courtship to reinforce my declaration.

    And I’ll tell you something else which you may find shocking. She said to me one night (in Korean, exact literal translation):

    “if you want to play with a woman, don’t show your feelings about her”

    Byron, I’m sorry but you are clueless.

  176. “Neglected to let you know I’m sorry about your family loss.”

    Hey Thanks, Notty.

  177. There is a certain allure with something that can come with fundamentalism. It can put a spotlight on certain issues, and perhaps help give better answers. Its a thing that can contain many truths, and maybe even no real falsehoods. The problem with it is that it is truncated. It tends not to have good answers for things other than what it is concerns.

    When it comes to coaching and players the context is key. If things could all be done by a one-size fits all approach, one really wouldn’t need a coach, just a manual. The reasons behind a team losing could be numerous. Perhaps they never really had the talent. Perhaps they had grown mentally stale. Perhaps they had gotten into the habit of going on drunken benders the night before the games.

    The coach doesn’t have all the answers either. The coach can only make a judgments and calculated risks. A player may or may not always follow through. If a player thinks he has found all the answers based on this thing, a coach may very well decide to let the player go through with it, even if he doesn’t think it will work long run. There may be no choice but to save the relationship with the player to let the player run the idea through its own course. It may also be a calculated risked based on knowing it may not hurt key fundamental ideas. The player, as well as the coach, may learn a few lessons from it, and it may set the stage for the player to return back to the coach’s philosophy.

    What should AMs do? You might as well ask what should all players do? I’d say ask someone who knows the particular situation and has some experience with it to give his or her judgment. I guess more focus on one’s sex and romantic life may be good, but it may be terrible if one thinks that there is all to championship with a female. One may need to put focus on other areas, and not worry about it. That may not be good for someone who may actually need to be coached on how to get a female attracted to him. I guess even in my time giving advice I realize I could get things wrong. The world can be a wild and irrational place. Things could work out for you may think it shouldn’t.

  178. Sorry Kobu, I feel for you there, even though I’m sure it’s not in any way much consolation. I might take her advice with some hesitation, you may not have been the intended recipient of that message. I mean why exactly should she think you shouldn’t show your feelings? And what does she mean by play? Maybe I don’t know the idiom in that language to know if the translated line means the same thing as it seems to me. I’d be pretty upset at that rejection, but I’d have to think she may know some more long drawn out pain given she’s a 39 y.o. single mother. I’m only guessing at that.

    Its usually true you shouldn’t show your feelings before it is time, but when you do your actions prior and after should back them up. If your looking to play, you should be careful about what you do. In the end this pain will only be someone else’s gain.

  179. Nothing to be sorry about.

    We did each other a big favor in retrospect. What I did for her was help her know that she’s still desirable for a 39 year old mother and widow and shouldn’t give up on romance. Since her husband’s death, which was some years ago, I was the only guy who made any significant effort to win her affection. Although my own self-esteem took a big hit as a result, I hope that because of me she will be encouraged to leave her past behind and open a new chapter in her life.

    As for myself, I was left with two stark choices: be bitter or be better.

    I don’t want to get too sentimental about any of this. The defeatist anti-PUA chorus is over complicating the matter as usual. Their limited beliefs are a consequence of the victim mentality bred by years of dwelling on identity-politics related grievance mongering. It’s a learned helplessness. The mind that was continuously brainwashed to blame its problems on external forces will necessarily be hostile to something like Game, which presupposes that the same problems are mostly YOUR fault and you need to get off your fat, lazy ass and work towards improvement. Their “helpful suggestions” are vague and impractical, based on ideals out of touch with reality.

    Many are also taking offense at Game because Game is ultimately based on realities about human nature, which is inherently offensive in itself. The particular slice of human nature which we can call “mating behavior” is largely rooted in evolutionary psychology, which itself is based on Darwinian natural selection. The victim-complex is essentially hostile to something like Game, which acknowledges the reality of Survival of the Fittest. Women themselves constantly say they want “strong, confident men who are leaders”. DHV. Survival of the Fittest. It is a huge waste of time to dwell in empathy, fairness, hurt feelings or any of that crap.

    What I am trying to get across is that getting good at attracting women is a learnable skill even if you didn’t acquire this skill by natural osmosis over course of your life til now. If you consider this to be important, which any red-blooded single male with a working set of balls and testosterone running through his veins should, and you want it badly enough…it CAN be done. It certainly wont be easy but it is far from impossible. I’m not a PUA coach trying to sell a boot-camp. I’m not making any money off this. I use my own personal experience to help shed insights to the ongoing, big-picture issue of the AM condition. I could just go off, be selfish, and just do this thing on my own, and not have to suffer fools. But I truly believe that when other AMs improve, we all benefit. A rising tide lifts all boats. The matter of our representation as fully masculine beings is one that has to done at the grassroots level, from the ground up, by individuals resolving to take matters into their own hands, getting their hands dirty to resolve unfulfilled potential.

    What she did for me was reI don’t want to dwell on the single mom because it’s history now. I only brought it up to illustrate a point.

  180. Kobu,

    You wrote:

    “Byron, if what you mean by “forthcoming” and “upfront” is spelling out in no uncertain terms what my intentions were, then yes, that is what I did. I told her that I liked her, found her attractive, and wanted to date her. No hints, clues, or beating around the bush or anything like that. No games…just straight up honesty. I spent the next few months doing classic nice guy supplicating courtship to reinforce my declaration.”

    I’m sorry to be nitpicking the story and cross examining the witness, but I don’t think I’d be doing you justice if I wasn’t.

    Most women know within a few minutes of meeting a guy whether the guy is date material. When you told her you liked her, she should’ve done one of two things–tell you that she likes you too, or tell you to go find someone else. There should never be a “next few months” worth of courtship or attempts to “buy her affection with carefully thought-out gifts.” You should never be a “beta-provider” to anyone who is no more than a friend. That’s the make it or break it point, when you ask her out. There’s no such thing as “let’s just be friends;” it’s either dating or not dating. Does that make sense?

    That’s what I’ve always done.

    Now if you really like her, you can dismiss yourself, and then ask her out again at a later time. There’s nothing wrong with that. But in my opinion, guys should never ever fall into the trap of supplicating to a woman who isn’t giving anything in return. I’m not saying she’s gotta be giving you you know what, but at the very least she should acknowledge you as either her boyfriend or something like that.

    So I acknowledge that maybe you were forthcoming and upfront. But maybe the mistake is that you didn’t demand anything in return. With women–but also with people in general–the worst relationships are those where one person is doing all the giving and the other isn’t doing anything. Just as it’s a man’s job to ask out a woman (I’ll talk about this in a future post), it’s also a woman’s job to give an answer.

    Like Jman, I don’t understand the Korean idiom. But whatever it may be, you also have to acknowledge that there are good people and bad people who you can date. Just as some guys mess up the women they date, some women aren’t saints either.

  181. I think we have different definitions of PUA. I think EVERY guy practices either aloud or in his mind what he’s going to say before approaching a woman, especially one he likes, especially when he really doesn’t want to mess up. Every guy does it, virtually without exception. But is this what you call “game?” I just see it as being upfront.

    J, the movie screen analogy is not about practicing a line in your head. It’s about having uplifting movies up in that mind screen. So, in this context, instead of imagining all the ways in which she is going to reject you, a player will imagine all the ways in which she will be into him. Like I said, it’s “think positive” expressed in a much more useful and meaningful way than the mainstream puts it.

    What is “Game” to me? I guess it is what allows a player to meet a girl on a subway, and sweep her off her feet so intensely that she finds herself having sex with him on the same day. And the player is able to do this regularly with new girls. You can’t do that by just being upfront unless you happen to be Johnny Depp.

    The conventional advice that’s bandied around on the mainstream, on the other hand, is basically old fashioned courtship advice. A regular guy following this kind of advice is very likely to meet the same girl above and get a very different result: Ask her out on a date, take her out to diner, bring her flowers, get a peck on the lips maybe if he’s lucky, then ask her “may I see you again?” like some kind of beggar.

    There are things that you can’t find in conventional advice that you do in PUA (and sometimes sales).I was going to post direct quotes, but these guys express these in a very rough way, and they will offend people. I’ll try to post them as tastefully as possible, just because I want to contrast it to the conventinal knowledge that society pushes:

    – social proof: if you’re seen with women, a lot of women will be interested. They will assume you have something which other women want, so they will want it. You can probably find this in sales, and definitely in psychology (Cialdini).

    – The power of touch: you don’t really see this in conventional dating advice for guys. It may be a cautionary thing, but it does negate the power of touch. Something small like touching a woman’s arm when she laughs (women do this all the time) can make a big difference.

    – Dates should be a reward for women you’re already sleeping with: Bring on the hate now, but for the most part this is on point. “Dating” as a concept has a lot of baggage that basically puts guys in the role of beggars (and the women as the prize). For the most part, guys find themselves basically paying for the privilege of a woman’s company (because his company is not good enough).

    And before someone says “woman also pay for themselves”, that’s not true of most. I’ve even seen many a self-declared feminist woman say that she gets turned off when a guy lets her pay dutch so you can imagine how your average non-feminist woman who buys into traditional gender roles thinks.

    “Dating” also elicits a very different behaviour from a woman than when you’re just hanging out with her. You’re basically auditioning for her.

    – “Being the prize”: Related to the above. Conventional advice tells you “be confident” but then it turns around and tells you to approach dating from a position of supplicating and begging. It tells you: ask her out on a date, pay for the dates, bring her flowers, buy her gifts.

    That’s just four of the bigger things not found in conventional dating advice. There’s a lot more value to be found in terms of the insights these players have– I’ve found a lot of them to be spot on.

    – Develop an ability to guide women on “mental vacations”, or “lead their imagination” as Ross Jeffries would say, in ways that bring pleasure to them. This is a no brainer that never gets mentioned in conventional advice.

    – Your conversational goal is not to communicate facts to her, but to lead her into emotional states (good feelings). She’ll associate these feelings with you. Does not show up in conventional advice.

    – Flip the script: You don’t audition for women, instead you qualify them to your standards.

    You definitely won’t hear this in conventional dating advice.

    What you will hear is a lot of people clamoring that it’s about partnership, equality, and high ideals but then the same mainstream will socialize both guys and women to think of women The Prize that men have to court (i.e. beg for).

    It bears mentioning again even if ti’s redundant:

    The man has to supplicate with with dinners, gifts, entertainment– you name it. The very epitome of this mentality? When the guy is supposed to get on his knees and beg the woman to marry him.

    Those are just a few insights you will not find in mainstream advice which are much more effective than what it has to offer. PUA, in that sense, is like looking behind the veil, or like the nerds love to say “taking the red pill”.

  182. Just as it’s a man’s job to ask out a woman (I’ll talk about this in a future post), it’s also a woman’s job to give an answer.

    Most women don’t drag it out for months, like that lady did to Kobukson, but it usually takes them a few dates to make a final decision. By that time, the guy has usually spent hundreds of dollars.

    What also happens often is that their attraction for the guy fizzles. They get turned off, or they meet someone they like better after dating for a while. It’s really a lot less straightforward and messy than what you’re saying.

  183. @Nottyboy,

    I have only read your first reply so far, but its fair enough and I’m satisfied with your take on it. There’s nothing much I can add really.

    Cheers. 🙂

  184. Haha…aight, Notty, maybe your definition of PUA is actually the same as mine. 🙂 Which is to say that you and I agree on definitions; we just don’t agree on our opinions on how things are, ought to be, or can be when it comes to dating. Which is totally cool.

    Most women don’t drag it out for months, like that lady did to Kobukson, but it usually takes them a few dates to make a final decision. By that time, the guy has usually spent hundreds of dollars.

    What also happens often is that their attraction for the guy fizzles. They get turned off, or they meet someone they like better after dating for a while. It’s really a lot less straightforward and messy than what you’re saying.

    Well yes, it usually takes a few dates to know if she wants to commit, the same way it usually takes a guy the same. It’s like an interview–you never want to take a job if they offer it to easily. That said, she usually knows right away if you’re dating material.

    I’ve read the PUA literature on getting women to pay–and I’ll admit that I’ve had women pay (though not because of PUA techniques)–but overall I do think that a guy should pay. A guy could always stop calling, but I don’t think a hundred bucks or so is too much to pay. In my opinion, that’s just what guys do. I don’t see it as supplication, at least not for the few few dates.

    No one’s attraction for me ever fizzles. But if it did, I’d just say that it sucks and then move on.

  185. @Raguel: Thanks man. I know it’s a mouthful to read.

    Haha…aight, Notty, maybe your definition of PUA is actually the same as mine. Which is to say that you and I agree on definitions; we just don’t agree on our opinions on how things are, ought to be, or can be when it comes to dating. Which is totally cool.

    In a sense, I guess it comes down to that: different strokes for different folks.

    overall I do think that a guy should pay. A guy could always stop calling, but I don’t think a hundred bucks or so is too much to pay. In my opinion, that’s just what guys do. I don’t see it as supplication, at least not for the few few dates.

    For me, it’s not the money itself. When you’re constantly told you need to court a woman like a “gentleman”, and then see how so many women break the rules for a player, you end up feeling like a sucker.

    It’s just far too common, and sometimes a guy would just rather be on the “hustlers” side, because courtship is basically not required for a whole lot of women. These women are not necessarily bad quality women either– they’re often decent human beings otherwise, but they just happen to have desires that go against their socialization.

    “Casual Sex: Men, Women Not So Different After All”

    http://www.miller-mccune.com/culture-society/casual-sex-men-women-not-so-different-after-all-28451/

    No one’s attraction for me ever fizzles. But if it did, I’d just say that it sucks and then move on.

    100% batting? Man, you’re better than Manny. 🙂

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