Amy Chua: Chinese Conceit, Chinese Ignorance, and the $24,000 question

Amy Chua and family

Amy Chua, author of World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability, wrote an article about Chinese child-rearing today: Why Chinese Mothers are Superior (Thanks to Jason from RiceDaddies for sending; and thanks to Fai for asking for this post.)  In the article, Chua espouses a hard-line “Chinese” way of raising kids.  She tells us how strict she is with her kids.   She writes about how Chinese mothers, as opposed to “Western” mothers, don’t care about self-esteem.  She writes about how Western people coddle their children.  She justifies her own ridiculous behavior by talking about how well Chinese kids do in school. She uses her White Jewish husband Jed as a counterpoint to her insanity.

You may see other bloggers get mad at how Chua abuses her kids.  I’m mad about that too, but I’m going to simplify my own major thoughts in three points.

1. Why is it that whenever you see an Asian woman talking about how superior Chinese upbringings are, these women are ALWAYS married to White or non-Asian guys?  Seriously, it’s always the members of the Asian Female Celebrity Club who are talking how good Asian people are while choosing to shop elsewhere for husbands.  For those of you who’ve been in the blogosphere a while, you’ll remember the book “Top of the Class: How Asian Parents Raise High Achievers–and How You Can Too” by Jane Kim and Soo Kim ABBOUD. I mean, really, Asian culture is so superior that NONE of you women happened to choose an Asian guy with whom to carry on that supposedly superior tradition?

Now I know that there are Asian women married to White guys who are just as peeved as anyone else over Chua’s article.  I know y’all exist.  I support you, and I’m glad you aren’t doing the Chua-Abboud thing.  But I think that that’s beside the point.  The point is that how can we be superior and inferior at the same time?  People like Chua talk one thing and practice another.  “I love the culture so much that I searched long and hard for a man who didn’t embody it.”  That’s patronage.

2. I find it highly ironic that Chua married a Jewish White guy and then lectures him on raising successful children. Look at the percentage of Jews who have won Nobel prizes, the amount of money the Jews as a group control vs. their percentage of the population, and the almost non-existent Jewish working class.  (Great book on the subject here, written by a Jewish American).  Check out this review:

Though Chua’s Jewish husband grew up with parents who encouraged him to – imagine! – express himself, he nonetheless agreed to let her take the lead in rearing the children and mostly serves as the Greek chorus to Chua’s crazed actions.

You look at the success that Jewish Americans have had in sciences, Hollywood, politics, literature, philosophy, music, law, and in just about every field. I think that the ability to “imagine” might not be such a bad thing.  Instead of raising your Jewish kid Asian, maybe it’s better to raise your Asian kid Jewish.  And if your kids happen to be male and look White, they’ll have a $24,000 advantage over Asian-looking male kids when trying to get a date among Asian women.  How’s that for a deal?

3. Isn’t this how we Chinese historically get f#$ed up? When we get conceited and complacent about not having to learn from others?

“Oh, we invented gunpowder, so look at how great we are!  What do White people have to teach us?”

“Look at how much we’ve invented, so let’s close our doors to the rest of the world.”

“Oh, we know kung fu, so what does it matter if those other guys have guns?”

“Imperialism, shmimperialism.”

“Oh, look at those nice people and what they brought us.  Opium!”

Really, some people need to open their eyes up to what’s going on.  Being cocky and complacent is the first step , as Quinton “Rampage” Jackson might say, to “gettin’ yo’ ass whooped.”  Look at how we Chinese are gettin’ our ass whooped in the media, in political appointments, in the arts, and in stopping the pro-White agenda of militant members of the Asian American Female Celebrity Club.  We’re almost non-entities when it comes to the impact we’ve had in literature–it says a lot about your culture when your most famous writer is Amy Tan.  Obviously we Chinese people have a lot to learn.

Really, imagination is not a bad thing.  Other bloggers who say Chua spreads stereotypes are correct–hardly any Chinese mothers behave the way she does.  As I mentioned in my last post, yes, there are abusive Asian assholes who are parents, but these parents abuse their kids because they’re assholes, not because they’re Asian.  For Chua, I think the logical step is to step back and to look at what she’s doing to her kids.  Then she needs to step back and look at the way things really are.  Her book World on Fire was great.  She’s a smart lady, and she should be able to see the contradictions in her actions and words.

Edit 1/11/2011: Check out Amy Chua on the Today Show. Man, her book is definitely going to be a bestseller. Some say it’s clever marketing, but I wonder why a NY Times bestselling author would need to put this in front of the world to see. In any case, I think Chua has raised a lot of good dialogue on parenting and Asian American culture.

Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/3041445/vp/41017904#41017904

Edit 1/11/11 11:26 pm:

Man, this topic has ignited a firestorm!  Even though I’m still somewhat annoyed by Chua’s attitude towards parenting (though I really don’t judge her on her own decisions), this has brought a lot out a lot of excellent dialogue on Asian American mental health issues and parenting.  For good discussion, check out my comments below, but also check out these other blogs:

Betty Ming Liu (Heartfelt blog, and great comments too)

quora (heart-felt comments)

Frances Kai-Hwa Wang (Editor of IMDiversity and multicultural contributor)

k12newsnetwork by Cynthia Liu (“It Gets Better moment”)

8Asians (heartfelt comments)

RiceDaddies (Keith Chow)

Omamas (Oregon Mommy blog)

Nikkei View (Gil Asakawa)

Edit 1/14/2010: See a counter-perspective, a wonderful essay that was submitted by a writer who supports Chua’s strict parenting:

http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/01/battle-hymn-of-the-kitten-daughter/

274 thoughts on “Amy Chua: Chinese Conceit, Chinese Ignorance, and the $24,000 question

  1. Here’s a great blog post on the Chua article:

    http://bettymingliu.com/2011/01/parents-like-amy-chua-are-the-reason-why-asian-americans-like-me-are-in-therapy/

    “Well, there’s a dirty little secret about these lunatic, prestige-whoring Chinese parents that Chua represents. For all their lusting after the elitism of Ivy League degrees, what they admire more than anything is financial success. So on that note, I would like to recommend a different book for you to read: “Delivering Happiness: A Path to Profits, Passion, and Purpose.” ”

    I love it!

  2. I wonder: was this article published by WSJ because WSJ thought it offered positive coaching on parenting… or did WSJ publish it because it’s a brilliant way for the Western media to present something related to China or Chinese culture in a light that will induce mocking and scorn? Because I wonder how many parents, of any race, seriously read that and think, “Oh yeah, now that’s the way I should raise my kid,” or do they really think, “Wow, those f—ed up Asian people!”

    This got me pretty riled up as well. I wanted to post a response on my own blog, but at this time am refraining from doing so because I’m not so sure I can keep myself civil.

  3. Jaehwan Please don’t promote her book. She just wanted her to have children to look more white so they can assimilate to white American society. This is a form of self hatred and racism, not interracial love. How can she say she has Chinese kids when they actually are mixed and look more white. Please promote Asian love and unity who support the minority community and set a positive role model to other Asians.

  4. I don’t know which is worse: a terrible Asian mom using stereotypes as an excuse, or her white husband who couldn’t find his balls to save his own kids from this kind of abuse, or the fact that the Wall Street Journal actually published this garbage. This is an insult to Chinese moms all over the world.

    And this woman graduated from Harvard? She’s got to be one of the dumbest \smart\ persons in the world.

    I really, really want to slap her. Does that make me sexist?

  5. Oh, and if Asian parenting is so superior, then why are their children -particularly their daughters- killing themselves left and right? Yeah, way to achieve.

  6. thanks for the link love on my post! you have an interesting take on this whole depressing amy chua issue — the whole interracial marriage angle. hmm, so complex. p.s. — i’ve just bookmarked your blog and hope to keep reading more in the future. will tweet about your post now. :)

  7. Pingback: Hao Mama 好妈妈 » Blog Archive » Chinese Mothers

  8. Pingback: Tweets that mention Amy Chua: Chinese Conceit, Chinese Ignorance, and the $24,000 question | bigWOWO -- Topsy.com

  9. Betty Ming – You are a true postive role model who personafies a woman who does not forget her heritage and culture in this world we live today. Your voice and opinion is needed to contradict the view of an Amy Chua and others like her seeking to conform and assimilate their preference to the predominate white male establishment. Thank you for your opinion and I am sure Jaehwan would welcome your insightful view on topics here.

  10. Nice take, B. I’m sure keeping her surname CHAU will help her sell more books than changing it to something like, errr…. Lebowitz or Horowitz, or even Zuckerberg. America’s waiting and ready for their new Amy. Wringing every bit of cultural capital from being an Asian/Chinese female and then hanging us by our balls in front of the masses. So typical.

  11. Pingback: Tweets that mention Amy Chua: Chinese Conceit, Chinese Ignorance, and the $24,000 question | bigWOWO -- Topsy.com

  12. one thing I noticed that there is an interesting cultural element to these nutcases:

    Chinese women become overbearing and dominant like this mental case writer.

    Japanese women become subservient to their ‘western’ husbands, like Mayumi Hene of that balloon hoax case…

  13. Amy Chua will answer readers’ questions Thursday on Review’s new blog,
    Ideas Market.

    CANYOUCLEARTHISUP?

    1. Amy is Filipina , not CHINESE,,,,her parents came from Philippines

    2. her kids are half Jewsish

    yes or no

    1. Amy is a Chinese- Filipina , not CHINESE,,,,her parents came from
    Philippines, her dad grew up there and was educated at college there
    until 1959, so his first 25 years were in Manila…NOT CHINA…and he
    rhusband Jed is Jewuish, so her entir aritlce is horseradish!

  14. @ellen, and the fact that you’ve dug up that info and every APA blog is obsessed with the WSJ article that coincides with the Tuesday release of the BS book means that it’s genius marketing at work here.

    and Byron says there’s no censorship or propaganda in the US?

    where’s the hype surrounding a Frank Chin book?

  15. I have just recently watched the repeat on ABC in Oz about a Jewish guy called John Safran who has gone to the immense trouble of making a TV series on national Australian television. It’s about how much he wishes to flout his parents dreams and aspirations for him as a Jewish boy potentially seeking a wife. He focuses particularly upon his predilection for Asian women citing the importance of expanding the gene pool. And he’s gone to the immense expense of flitting around the globe on production dollars to prove his point and make it into an hilarious comedy …fit for an award?
    Ha. Ha. Ha. Nuff sed!

  16. For what academic researchers — most of them Asian-American — are finding on how Asian-Americans parent, and why their kids generally do very well in school, you might want to look at this article, part 1 of a series: http://www.miller-mccune.com/culture-society/asian-american-parenting-and-academic-success-26053/
    I’m the author and for full disclosure, I’m white and Jewish…I tried to give a faithful account of what researchers are finding.

    Kathy

  17. Hi Betty,

    Thanks for the post, and thanks for the tweet! I’ve read numerous blogs, and your post still best explains the implications of Chua’s article. It’s been 24 hours, and I’m still laughing over your description of these parents as “prestige-whoring!” What an apt description!

    Also, I’m now officially a subscriber to your blog on Google Reader!

  18. TZ,

    Would love to hear your thoughts, civil or not!

    Gar,

    Great video!

    Yuey,

    It looks like it is accessible from here. I’ll try to check it out later.

    crazy MMer,

    You’re grasping at straws on this censorship thing!!! Why??? Ellen was just asking questions.

    Ellen Frank,

    Amy Chua is Chinese, not Filipino. Her parents are Chinese from the Philippines. Her book World on Fire covers the idea of ethnic Chinese economic domination in SE Asia, in fact one of her relatives was murdered by a Filipina servant, maybe in part because of wealth inequality. Check out World on Fire if you have time; it’s a very good book.

    Jennifer Z,

    Would love to see that!

    Kathy Seal,

    Thanks for the article! I went to your personal site, and it looks like you’ve got lots of writings (books and articles) on parenting. I’m definitely going to check it out!

  19. i’m just calling it as i see it.

    just today somebody pointed out that in the AZ shooting that’s hyped up in the media, the primary surgeon Dr. Rhee was not mentioned whatsoever.

    now why would it be that the AM primary care doctor wouldn’t even get any tv time but everybody else comments on the senator’s condition?

  20. Too sick/tired to make a solid contribution, and will elaborate later. But my view seem a quite different to some of the responses on the pages that Byran listed.

    I guess I’m nowhere near bring a parent yet, but the whole ‘parenting’ thing is over-rated. In my view, your ‘peers’ and who you choose as your peers is going to have a lot more influence on how you develop in the latter teens and the college stage.

    And I’m not sure I can identify with some of the comments on Betty’s page at all. I see a lot of Jean Kwok style whinging. While I can kind of understand the lack of acknowledgment in getting quite decent grades, but if the 3 hours of piano practice each day is the only bad thing you remember from your childhood, then you should be thanking the heavens. There was someone who whinged about his parents only allowing to play video games on the weekends……WTF? They actually bought you the video games and can afford to? You mean the money they earn is actually spent on you and not on presents to his mistress?

    Our red pocket money goes straight back to the family kitty. I learn early that if the average number of kids in your family is 2, if your family has two kids and that the amount of money in the red-pockets are exactly the same, then the total amount of money your mother has to pay out in red-pockets will be exactly the same as the total amount my sister and I are going to receive.

    Not most, but quite a number of my friends have to deal with messy divorcing parents, deaths in families, bullying, lack of money etc. which in my view is a lot harder to cope with when you’re a kid growing than some of those ‘harsh parenting’ examples given.

    And knowing how to play the piano is a bad thing? Do they know how much it helps you getting girls in the future? And as my piano-playing friends can testify…A lot.

    Secondly, it seems that we are giving way too much credit to her and her parenting methods. There are too much emphasis on whether her method is right or successful and not enough on whether her methods represents the ‘chinese’ way of parenting at all.

    I know three very ‘Chinese’ friends (to the point where they are still commies), one guys’ parents are the goofiest, almost hippie like people I’ve seen. One family treats my friend like a king and obliges to whatever he wants, the third whose parents have to work for such long hours where he’s home alone most of the time and that he’s the one that has to control himself in not to spend too much time on games and p…
    …um, watching TV.

  21. Good stuff. A friend passed me Betty’s link (as well as the WSJ article) and I wasn’t at all surprised to see your comment close to the top of the list ;-)

    Further down Betty’s page is another link to some really eye-opening comments from Quora…
    http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal

    One of the best aspects of the comments? They’re virtually all perfectly spelled, grammatically correct, and excellently worded.

    And, yes, I would like to smack that smug grin off her face.

  22. Thanks, D! We hit record traffic yesterday. I’m just upset I didn’t sell my soul to Google Ads beforehand! I liked those quora comments too.

    N,

    “Jean Kwok style whinging!” Haha…that’s awesome! Actually, I was waiting for your comments, and I’m glad that you’re at least well enough to comment.

    And speaking of “well”…are you familiar with this Cantonese…I guess it’s soup…called goot foon…or something like that? It’s this thick glutinous soup that an ex-girlfriend’s mom used to give me. I was trying to explain to a friend what it is, but my Cantonese pronunication is atrocious. Any help would be appreciated. You’re the first person I’ve asked (probably because the other Cantonese people are already eating it and feelin’ good.)

    I think there is a disconnect that makes it difficult for those with non-abusive parents to understand those with abusive parents, mostly because it’s hard to describe. The conversation often goes like this:

    “My parents hit me.”
    “Well, my parents hit me too.”
    “My parents withheld money.”
    “My parents didn’t even have money.”
    “My parents yelled at me.”
    “My parents yelled at me too.”
    “My parents punished me.”
    “My parents punished me too.”

    Unless someone says, “My parents forced sex on me,” there isn’t any clear line between abuse and normal parenting because normal parents hit (during our era…not so much anymore) , withheld money, yelled, and punished. The abused person can’t really explain it.

    There are more stories in the comment section here:
    http://www.8asians.com/2011/01/09/looking-into-the-future-amy-chua%E2%80%99s-parenting-style/

    A great fictional description of an abusive spouse-spouse nonviolent relationship can be found in Alice Munro’s short story “Dimension.” (and HOLY SHIT, it’s ONLINE!!!)
    http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/06/05/060605fi_fiction

    Imagine being raised in an environment where the relationship is similar to Doree and Lloyd.

    Okay, gotta go. Please let me know if you are familar with goot foon. Not just N, but anyone! :)

  23. When you take the approach from the lowest end of the scale, of course everything else seems better or trivial in comparison. That’s not the point, though. Yeah, Amy Chau is not the worst kind of mother out there, but there is sure as hell a lot of room for improvement. I’ve known kids in grade school with mothers who spent 90% of their time drunk and fathers who beat them with extension cords, but does that mean I don’t have rights to complain simply because of the lack of broken bones in my body? What kind of low expectations is that? Sure, there are parents out there that are way worse but then they’re not getting book deals or articles in the Wall Street Journal lauding their amazing abilities to abuse their kids, either.

    A lot of suicidal kids and children who murder their parents come from seemingly well-off households and even affluent families whose lives seem like fairy tale dreams to kids living in poverty. But they still want the same things, like being able to express themselves or socialize with their friends. Children do not handle stress like adults can, and pressure builds up until some day, your perfect straight-A, concert master, Ivy League-bound poster child decides to reach for the gun or take a nose dive off the 5th floor. There’s a lot more to abuse than just the physical aspects.

  24. What kind of low expectations is that? Sure, there are parents out there that are way worse but then they’re not getting book deals or articles in the Wall Street Journal lauding their amazing abilities to abuse their kids, either.

    in other words, it’s playing up the chinkology to sell books.

    nothing new here in the world of marketing.

  25. I took a chemistry class in college, and one of my classmates was an Asian American woman. She was constantly talking about how much pressure her parents were putting on her to be a doctor when she really just wanted to be a nurse. We had a lot of interesting conversations about “the old ways,” and us younger generations of minorities.

  26. Amy Chua is a kind of a fundamentalist, a Taliban of Model Minority over-achievement. Everyone must worship something and it is plain and clear what this lady worships. If she didnt truly believe in her own delusions this would be an Onion parody.

  27. Well, lets look on the bright side here. Her daughters will be so traumatised by this fire breathing Dragonlady of a mother and her emasculated Jewish husband that later on in life, they will probably date dope-smoking, slacker Asian guys to “rebel”.

  28. Real quick–I just updated the original post to include Chua’s interview on the Today show that aired this morning. I’ll post again in this comment:

    Visit msnbc.com for breaking news, world news, and news about the economy

    At just over 6 minutes, she talks about how she adores her father who told her she disgraced him. Do you believe her? I don’t. bigWOWO doesn’t buy it.

    Here’s another one at 8:53: “I’m so lucky that I had a husband who supported my values but sort of also brought balance to our family insisting that we go on bike rides and water slides and take them to Yankee games.” I think we need to wait a few more years to see whether the kids are as lucky as she is.

  29. @B

    Sorry Byran, doesn’t really ring a bell at all. Is the syrup black? Is it runny or is it thick?

  30. N,

    So the consistency is kind of like thick boiled corn starch. I think it’s kind of the color of hot and sour soup–kinda brownish grey. My ex-girlfriend pronounced it “gyet fen” or something like that, but I also heard “goot foon.” It’s supposed to get rid of canker sores and fever. Man, I wish I knew more. I should’ve had her write it down before we broke up. :)

    OHHH…I just googled it. Here is what some people say:
    http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/131772-gwat-fun/

    I still don’t know where to get it. Goot Foon is definitely the Toisan pronunciation.

    Thanks, N!!!

  31. I wonder: was this article published by WSJ because WSJ thought it offered positive coaching on parenting… or did WSJ publish it because it’s a brilliant way for the Western media to present something related to China or Chinese culture in a light that will induce mocking and scorn? Because I wonder how many parents, of any race, seriously read that and think, “Oh yeah, now that’s the way I should raise my kid,” or do they really think, “Wow, those f—ed up Asian people!”

    That’s spot on.

    I think there is a subtle strain of Sinophobia in the American media’s promotion of Amy Chua’s nonsense, as evidenced by the way they predictably try to paint her parenting as representative of the “Chinese” way.

    Even in terms of its puff “news” pieces, the vaunted US Free Press™ cannot resist peddling enduring American racial memes about Asians like:

    1. The Perpetual Foreigner stereotype

    Amy Chua is basically an upwardly mobile Chinese *American* immigrant, whose elitist status is firmly tied to being part of the White American establishment–which she has literally married into and which her publishing career is dependent upon.

    But she and her parenting “advice” are promoted as representative of some essentialized “Chinese” way.

    Chinese American is not the same thing as Chinese. Unless, you are willing to make a corollary argument that European American culture (in areas like parenting) is representative of Europe.

    2. Manufacturing the Orientalist Other

    The American media tries to conflate Chinese Americans with Chinese to order to a manufacture a monolithic “Chinese culture” that reveals more about the USA’s own racial stereotypes (and anxieties) than anything else.

    Similar examples are found in America’s recent Islamophobic or Latinophobic (i.e. anti-illegal immigrant) nativism.

    In each case, some racialized Other is painted as bizarre, strange, or threatening compared to a normalized and benevolent American Way.

    In terms of Asians, the best example of this phenomenon is what Edward Said called Orientalism.

    2b. Joy Luck Club parents

    A related propaganda meme that the USA’s culture industry likes to peddle is the idea that Asian (or Chinese in this case) parents are rigid, authoritarian, and harsh implicitly compared to the freedom-loving “American” way of parenting.

    You see this in wildly popular works like The Joy Luck Club, where the parents are often domineering, uncaring, or even abusive towards their daughters at one point or another in their relationships.

    These abusive parents are presented not merely as individuals (who happen to be of a particular ethnic background) but as representative of their Asian culture in general, which is implicitly contrasted to some Mainstream White norm.

    3. America loves its Native Informants

    Ultimately, Amy Chua is not unlike that other Amy, who is also a darling of the American publishing industry: Amy Tan.

    They are example of what is called a Native Informant, which was an anthropological term used to describe individuals of a particular “native” tribe who would provide detailed information about their culture to Western ethnographers.

    Today, the term Native Informant is often used politically to describe racial minorities who are promoted by mainstream America to act as experts/insiders giving the skinny about their community–often in ways that uphold stereotypes or reinforce White power.

    In practice, these Native Informants serve to give the veneer of “native” authenticity to perspectives that reflect or serve White political interests.

    These Native Informants are given widespread media publicity, promoted as community representatives or leaders, and of course (ahem) finally rewarded for their services rendered.

    See the Rented Negro as a closely related phenomenon.

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/rented-negroes/

    Given all this, it’s no shock the American media is jumping over Amy Chua like flies on shit. And why she’s gotten a lucrative book deal and significant promotional campaign to boot.

  32. Larry- you have an excellent point. Sinophobia is increasing alongside China’s steady rise in world prominence and the West’s continued stagnation. To many Americans, it is inconceivable to them that a different culture can produce successes that rival their own. So, they resort to stereotypes to demonize those people to lessen their accomplishments. Asian kids do better at school only because their parents abuse them! Asian people are more productive because they’re all mindless drones! Asian businesses are all conniving thieves and they steal money and jobs from us! Asians are incapable of creativity and all their ideas are stolen from us! Americans lag behind simply because they’re more humane than those Asians who are not restrained by morals! Etc.

  33. @B

    Lol, there’s actually an English Wiki entry for it (though a short one):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Got_fan
    (I googled the chinese did a bit of reverse engineering to get Got Fan)

    But I’ve……never heard of it, actually. I might give my mum a call to see if she knows anything about it.

    Our local remedy to relief throat pain was lemon slices throw into a cup of coke, then boil/microwave it until the air disappears.

    But tapioca desserts (Sai mai Lo) cures everything!

  34. why she’s gotten a lucrative book deal and significant promotional campaign to boot.

    actually, the timing of the article and the release date of her book are only coincidences to the most numbnut Asian apologists.

  35. Pingback: Superior Chinese Mothers « orientalright

  36. How did this become a discussion about IR? You are obsessed with the issue mate! Half of your post is dedicated to the fact that Chua is married to a Jew. So what? She fell in love with smart Jew and they got married. I highly doubt that she was purposely avoiding Asian men.

    How were you raised as a child? How are you raising your child? I think these are the important issues, rather than trivial IR stuff (which I write about as well…but still you go way too far). I wasn’t raised in such a way, but I know a lot of kids who were. Most parents don’t go quite as far as Chua (and I think she exaggerating in any case), but I’d say 25%? of kids are subjected to similar parenting.

  37. michelle malkin’s book defending japanese internment sold well
    every asian american celebrity is hardcore azn

  38. N,

    Thanks so much! Who needs ex-girlfriends when we got Wikipedia? :) Haha. I think I’m going to into the Chinese meds store with that han zi printed out. Someone should be able to help me.

    But please do ask your mom. I’m totally going into this blind, and any advice would help. I’ve gone too long without goot foon.

    I’ve updated the front page to include some of the interesting posts I’ve read on this topic, including some of the ones that we mentioned in the comments. Everyone, check them out! I’m amazed at some of the personal stories that have been coming out from this discussion.

  39. Hey ho re: Safran/ABC – google google google – you’ll find him easy.

    I’m a mother – two sons. My eldest son played trumpet when he was younger (now 27) and my youngest plays jazz bass (now 22). They can both tell you stuff about music that never thought you could know. They are both passionate about politics – and read voraciously. My eldest was training managers for his company when he was 15 (couldn’t be one himself because you had to be 18) and my youngest had a six pack at 15 and was a national champion in his sport. I basically had three rules which I encouraged and supported passionately/militantly – probably too much for their liking.
    1. Follow your Passion
    2. You’re not allowed to call each other names
    3. I drop you off and pick you up till you are 18 (no curfew) even if it’s 4am.

    They both excel in their chosen fields.

  40. One of the fundamental problems with Chua’s worldview is attaching a person’s value to academic or financial success. Yeah, I agree that every child should be encouraged to excel and just feeling good about themselves won’t pay the bills. But life doesn’t always turn out the way we expect it. What if your child couldn’t get into that Ivy League college he or she’s been studying for? What if your child doesn’t turn out to be some music prodigy? What if your child couldn’t get that job that pays 6 figures?

    In these scenarios, two questions every parent should ask themselves are:
    Would you love your child any less?
    Would your child have any reason to feel ashamed?

    Asian parents prepare their kids for success, but do they prepare them for failure? Because no matter how prepared you think you are, sooner or later life will throw you a curve ball. When that happens, sometimes the love between parents and their children will matter more than trophies and degrees.

  41. “3. America loves its Native Informants ”

    Larry, that’s awesome term… LOL.

    I think someone else already touched on this, but it’s pretty fascinating to see people’s responses to the article, both on an intellectual level and a personal / emotional level. Obviously, everyone is frames their discussion with a bit of their experiences with their own Asian parents, whether good or bad. *shrug*

  42. Kobukson,

    We need to have a follow up in 15 years. Maybe a 15 year Tiger Mom reunion.

    Jennifer Z,

    I just checked it out! Haha…I don’t know if I’m going to be able to make it through though!

    Great words and advice on raising kids. (although I wonder about my daughter and no curfew!). I hope my kids turn out to be successful too.

    Leon,

    Good points! It’s kind of like Betty said, “prestige-whoring.”

  43. @B

    Called my mother and she doesn’t know anything about it. But there’s a lot of recipes on the web, so I’m happy to do a bit of translating for you once I find time on the weekend.

  44. Re: “In any case, I think Chua has raised a lot of good dialogue on parenting and Asian American culture.” I think this is the real genius in Chua if it was well-intended.

    L

  45. Hi, thank you for providing some more realistic balance to all this hype.
    One point that is being left out are the various cultural/ ethnic/ and individual values of “what success and happiness means? to each one of us either as individuals or collective?” Each one of us is a unique ‘being’ in time and history with our ‘unique’ journey to follow…. this uniqueness, is a significant aspect of how we solve problem and find solutions to shared challenges. Creativity and imagination are key for problem solving, and in turn for our survival as human species, the same then diversity and choice; particularly, in an ever increasing global state of environmental and social crisis, together with cross-cultural marriages and relations.
    I am glad, that after such strong and ethnocentric article title, she has been apologetic in clarifying how the book speaks of her personal journey and values, her story!!
    I am clear this book is a memoir, a self-reflection piece of writing, rather than any ‘factual’ contribution to social studies.
    As you say too, this hype certainly will make her a lot of money… yeah for her!
    We hope she will contribute some of her profits to the public school system where the sons and daughters of overworked and underpaid parents that have not yet been enlighten go to school!

  46. Hi, with kindness I also apologize for adding my reply despite not having one bit of Asian in me -as far as I know anyway. I do, however, have the great respect for Asian history, culture and people. In case you wonder, I am originally from Nicaragua and for the past 20 years have made my life and home in North America. Thank you !! Blanca.

  47. A couple of things to note about Chua. Her specialty is East Asia–Chinese, Japanese Koreans but she was born in the US and her parents are Chinese born and raised in the Phillipines.

    There is a bit of connivance in that from the beginning. The Chinese from the Phillipines are in mindset very mixed, some very Filipino. Second, Ms. Chua and her sisters have never wanted to be a part of the Chinese nor Asian American community, ever. Ask anyone that ever grew up with them in Ca.

    Third, she is Chinese talking about how her culture has some superior traits, yet if you ask her daughters, they say, Mom is Chinese but we are Jewish. See her wikipedia entry, this came from one of her interviews about her daughters. So she sells her ethnicity because it helps, helped her find her niche speciality as an ethnic minority law professor at Yale, the East Asian thing, yada, yada, yada.

    Chua does not speak Mandarin though her daughters are learning Mandarin but so aren’t half the while Long Island wasp, Jewish and upper crust prep school types in NYC. What is the identity of her daughters and that is the true marker, they are Jewish.

    The Asian or Chinese marker in American society is difficult. The Asian male has very little respect while the Asian female is heavily courted by the white prep school Ivy academic types. In my book, Amy Chua Rubenfeld =Connie Chung Povich, Chinese American women who never wanted to be a part of the Asian Am community, they of course married out despite growing up with or inundated with Asian Americans, but then by marrying out, they conveniently are named Representatives of the said community that they always wanted to escape from because it was too limiting.\n
    Watch most White waspy-upper crust, prep school-Asian female couple at the Ivies. The guys always present themselves as somehow
    reeing these women from the limits of their communities and culture(s). Then if these power couples ever make it big, the women is then named to represent the community in some way, the same community they have always wanted to escape.

    See the writer of Warrior Lessons, Phoebe Eng, same route too.
    Wow, now I understand the hypnotic power of Chinese culture—wow, that culture is so deep, so rooted in history and discipline. Naw, hell no! So the real lesson might be–Shake that money maker ! ( it’s my right to determine what I am calling the money maker–brawns or … well you know, not the oldest profession, nor the oldest fetish in the world, but rather the oldest trick in the book.

  48. “If you’re from Nicaragua, then you probably do have some Asian in you, according to prehistoric migration patterns.”

    Asians fuck so good.

  49. Pingback: Deciding Not To Have Kids | bigWOWO

  50. N,

    That would be TOTALLY appreciated!!! I actually went to the Asian market yesterday and asked for it. They didn’t have it. So I probably have to cross the river to see an herbalist. If you have any sick friends, maybe we can try it out. (Note: let’s ask the herbalist before we go ape-sh^t with herbs. LOL!)

    Lac,

    Chua has done a good thing.

    Blanca,

    Great points about happiness and how we define it! No need to offer any apologies whatsoever; this forum is open to everyone, regardless of race!

    Bobby,

    Great observations and opinion.

  51. Chua definately has nearly every blog I read on fire. Whether intentional or not, I do give her credit on bringing this issue to light. Also I found this short interview on CNN on her where she focused more on her “transformation” – and heck no I don’t plan on raising children with that type of strictness.

    The thing is, my husband’s mom is full Chinese. And she wasn’t that strict on him. My mom was a whole lot more strict on me. However, I think that is because she tried to raise me the way her mom raised her. But she later realized that raising me in the US with Motherland ideals did not work. That took over 15 years for her to really realize that. That makes me conclude that many moms in Chuas generation may have been criticized too (though she is on the extreme end).
    I plan to raise my son to really understand his chinese and vietnamese roots (and be also aware of his German side as well). But I think a mom’s role is extremely important in a child’s life so being overbearing and overstrict will only cause kid(s) to rebel. I’m not even sure if this comment has much to do with the issues being raised here, but it did make me think back to my mom’s upbringing and then my own, and then how my son will be perceived as he has a Jewish-sounding last name.

  52. Pingback: Forget Amy Chua. Bigger fish to stir-fry: 4 ways I’ve been conned by Confucius.

  53. The “Asian” (the term means Indian in the UK) female white guy thing can’t be explained by the larger number of white guys. (If the only “Asian” guy in your school is unattractive it’s natural you’ll go for white meat.)

    From what I’ve heard “Asian” women are simply more SEXUALLY attracted to white men, because they tend to be taller and more robust (broad shouldered, muscular, etc. If the US adopted Singapore’s standards for BMI and obesity the non-obese whites would mostly be emaciated. Could a Chinese ever play offensive line in the NFL?)

    Another example: I heard a Chinese American woman describe how a very thin boyish body type is the ideal for Chinese women, because, she said, Chinese men are already, her words, “emasculated”.

    It’s strange, but it seems that white women are much bigger gold diggers than “Asian” women, are attracted to men much more for the size of their wallet.

  54. ghost of Steve Sailer’s BS ‘racialism’ strikes again. lol

    all the YT chinkologists probably haven’t even seen any real Asians outside of their media propagandas

  55. @ Nicolai:

    If that were true, Asian women would be marrying Black and Latino men in much MUCH larger proportions than they would be marrying white men. That and the whole Tom Cruise Keanu Reeves look wouldn’t be such a popular look in the West, which appear to me to be the Western equivalent of the emaciated-pretty-boy-look that’s popular in the East (Rain,.. I don’t know any others…so etc.)

    Sadly, the “Asian” (I don’t know why they’re in quotations in your comment) women who’ve been talking to you before have only been telling you what they think you want to hear. Your position is hardly the reality.

    Asian men actually, if anything, are stereotyped for their overt masculinity, in Chinese we call it “Da Nan Ren,” directly translated meaning “Big Man” or overly macho. If anything, the Asian women I know who decide not to date Asian and instead date white do so because they’re trying to avoid the “Da Nan Ren” mentality and instead, want a more complacent (and emaciated) pale, sensitive (ultimately white) man. If there is ANYthing I criticize Hubby about, it’s his “Dan Nan Ren” overt masculinity, which might best be described to you as the equivalent of the West’s Marlboro Man cowboy type. So really, it sounds like you’re just hearing what you want to hear and taking that as fact.

  56. Pingback: Battle Hymn of the Kitten Daughter | bigWOWO

  57. Nikolai is from AOR’s new blog. Nikolai, welcome, and I hope that you’ll open yourself up to learning and will eventually start losing your (HBD) religion. As I’ve told AOR, the world is much bigger once you step outside and see the light!

  58. @TZ
    “Asian” girls haven’t told me anything and blacks and Mexicans tend to be shorter and scrawnier than whites, believe it or not, but perhaps the only blacks you see are pro athletes. Obviouslt there is variation. Mongols and Manchus tend to be tall and robust.

    “Asian” has replaced the more descriptive “oriental”, because the PC thought police decided “oriental” was the equivalent of “nigger”, never mind that it’s even less appropriate than “African-American”. Omar Sharif is an African-American and Mehmet Oz is an Asian American. As a matter of fact “Asian” means Indian in the UK.

    @jaehwan
    I’m not an HBDer.

  59. OK. So Chua discussion aside. Why are Asian men constantly CONSTANTLY whining that asian women sometimes date, fall in love with, and marry non-asians? What the fuck is wrong with you guys? Did you ever stop to think that the reason you are not attractive sometimes might be because you are always sitting around whining about how you see NOTHING but asian women with white men. (which is ridiculous) Maybe you should get a little confidence, accept the fact that you are attractive just the way you are, and go out and get dates with whoever you are attracted to, and quit making asian women feel like shit? Just please get your insecurity off of my life, for God’s sake.

    So I am reading this post here, and I am having these creepy feelings like my brother wrote it, with all the subtle undertones of hatred for af/wm relationships — eventhough they outwardly say it is “fine.” Btw, I grew up with a Korean brother who CONSTANTLY badgered me that I should “respect Korean men” (IE: marry one). I realized later, he in no way had my best interest in mind. He was trying to protect his fragile self-image. Ugh.

    I love my brother, and I am proud to be Korean. But who I date has nothing to do with it, and I am SO FUCKING SICK of feeling like a traitor when I don’t date like my family says that I should.

    Ahhhhhhhhh!!!

    Am I the only one??????????????????

    ㅠㅠ

  60. Nikolai,

    Black guys and Latino guys are scrawnier than White guys? Not where I live. Not in New York, LA, or SF where a lot of Asian people live. And no, I’m talking about most guys, not professional atheletes.

    Good to hear that you’re not an HBD’er.

  61. Kimbapper,

    You wrote:

    “Maybe you should get a little confidence, accept the fact that you are attractive just the way you are, and go out and get dates with whoever you are attracted to, and quit making asian women feel like shit?”

    Yes, you’re right. But there is the problem of the $24,000 bonus that a White guy gets among “average” Asian women for just being White. It’s not with all women obviously, but it’s there. Now I’m not saying that that is insurmountable…it’s not. But you can’t just tell an Asian man to ignore it. It would be like telling black people during the 1960’s that those “colored” water fountains were just as good and that they should just drink from them with confidence.

    If you have time, check out a male perspective with a podcast from our reader “urb4n” here:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/05/podcast-urb4n-talks-about-ir/

    I don’t agree with everything urb4n says, but it’ll give you an idea of where Asian men like your brother are coming from.

    Also, he may not have had your best interest in mind, but I don’t think he was trying to hurt you either. It’s entirely possible to find good men among Asian people. He was probably just pointing this out.

    So…what do you think about Amy Chua?

  62. To Kimbapper and others who don’t see the AF-WM imbalance vs. AM-WF couples,

    First, you cannot have true, deep meaninful respect for East Asian cultures when you don’t respect the men. You can be like Ai Hwa Ong, talking about Chinese immigrant males and their great feats of transnationalism, the transnationalism embedded in their lives, outlook, yada, yada, yada, in most of her books and yet, well who do we marry, we never accept that– the Asian male.

    Marriage, marriage partners and procreating are important decisions. In America, we always have to feign multiculturalism when the hierarchies of power among white and all the minorities is readily apparent despite the words and games.

    Second, this disparity is important because it is at 6-1, WM-AF versus AM-WF. Where am I getting these statistics from? From my arse, you say when all current knowledge points at 2.5 to 3.1/3.2 to 1 ( AF/WM to AM/WF )?

    Well those figures are wrong because they include half of the data from marriages of Asian 1st generation immigrants who are both from Asia. This figure counts the
    total of all marriages which have at least one member who is listed in census info
    as Asian American.

    Sorry but that outmarriage rate is far more skewered than what you think. 60-
    65% of the Asian American population were born overseas. Many such as the
    parents of most of my asian american friends are first generation immigrants
    from Asia. Hence, Asian father-Asian mother. But if you want to know the real
    statistics for Asian Americans who are American not only by passport but also
    culturally (they don’t have to have been born in the US but were raised in the US
    and consider themselves without a doubt, American ), then you must take out the
    data from 1st gen. immigrant marriages.

    That figure of the outmarriage imbalance would have to exclude the marriages of
    the Asian-Asians 1st generation immigrants from Asia because 1.Asia in the past
    was very very homogenous in population(s) and 2. data from these marriages is
    not relevant for Asian American ( not just passport but culturally American )
    outmarriage ratios.

    Therefore the true outmarriage rate among Asian Americans who are culturally
    Americans would be something on the order to 5 or 6-1 Asian female-white male
    for every Asian male-White female couple.

    You can’t have true respect for Asia when there is so much self hate among Asian Americans themselves. It produces a politically weak divided community and its voice despite all the hard work, the right schools, etc. Not to mention what is the political future of such a community.

  63. Kimbapper wrote:

    Why are Asian men constantly CONSTANTLY whining that asian women sometimes date, fall in love with, and marry non-asians?

    What? You mean date, fall in love with, and marry WHITE MEN, right? Because, you know, that’s what something like 98% of Asian women in IR relationships do. Maybe when Asian women actually date, fall in love with, and marry other NON-WHITE, non-Asians, then you might actually have a point. In the meantime, stop telling us how we should feel.

    Oh, and there’s also the income gap for Asian men to compete at the same level as white men to consider. Not to mention a history in this country of emasculating Asian men, including laws that exclude us from marriage. But of course, you don’t really give a crap about this, do you? You’re just happy to blame Asian men for your personal problems. Oh and btw, IR isn’t the main point of this discussion. Congrats on derailing it, insulting all the Asian men here with your first post without as much as an introduction, and not even bothering to read our other posts ON the topic of IR to better understand our position. Your brother’s right about you. Now get your insecurity off of my life.

  64. Kimbapper’s post is a not so cleverly disguised “I’m a dumb fuck who fucks white men because they don’t remind me of my little brother who is just like every other Asian American man out there, because again I’m a dumb fucking, insecure headcase of a bitch” post.

    And no, I’m not some insecure, frustrated Asian American who can’t get dates. In fact I get play across the whole color spectrum. It’s just I have run across dumb Asian American bitches like you more times than I would like to remember. Sorry for being so crass. But I bet if I was undeniably white and not just have a pseudo mixed look, you would be all over my cock already.

    Thanks for your post Kimbapper. Hope you fuck those white boys real well in order to feel real good about your Korean pride.

  65. hope you’re not being a gentleman, mT, and not resorting to blaming the Asian culture for not using protection like Dr. Haim’s study and passing on the STDs. lol

  66. Geez guys ( mT and Leon ),

    Man that was really harsh. I gave the stats simply because my dad works with those stats and in Asian Am classes at Berkeley, Ucla, Northwestern, they never give the real data, that is, it is 3-1 overall but for Asian Americans who are raised in the US and culturally American, that figure is 5.5-1 or 6-1.

    But god, you guys are just straight out misogynistically attacking KimBapper.
    We have to try to explain things to her, and then wait and wait and wait to see if she understands out POV. But just to attack like that WTF?

    Now, c’mon guys put the shoe on the other foot. We are Asian males. Let’s say that soccer and chess were the most popular sports in America. There is a NBA of chess. Then Karaoke singing ( in Korean, Chinese or Japanese ) was hotter in the US than rap. Being bilingual. Maybe you think I am tripping but this is HYPOTHETICAL OKAY.

    Well then suddenly Asian men are the bomb!! We are the top dog in the US. So all the white, black and hispanic women love us. We live our lives without ever hearing snickering remarks about our ethnicity because shortness is in.

    Then let’s say in our hypothetical world, big boobs was an absolute necessity, it is in our HYPOTHETICAL AMERICA, a legal requirement ( the BB’s ) to get a good job, it adds 150 points to your SAT and GRE scores, etc. So then Asian women every day are being defamed and walked on because they might be lacking in this department when in comparison to Latinas, Anglos and Black women ( but not compared to Eskimos ).

    So what do the men do? Society is darwinistic, always has been, always will be. We want to reproduce our genes with those that can provide us the best and most secure and comfortable life possible.

    So we ( we are 5’4″ to 5’6″, I had to wear trifocals at the age of 22 because when I play chess, it is big time, I am DA BOMB, I only use Lord of the Rings chess sets ) naturally have disdain towards Asian women.

    Yet if we were as smart as what we pretended we were, then we would also look for ways to turn things ( measurement, parameters ) in our society around for our sisters. But it’s hard when you got that harem of lovelies around you. When you are 5’2″ and Asian and a big swinger, with all the dough. So that in some sense is there situation.

    Women love attention, they get ample amounts of it from all sorts of white men, but interesting lower class, uneducated white men usually are less likely to have the Asian fetish. They live their lives without ever having to hear the word Chink in h.s. while we have to live with it everyday for those Asians who grew up outside of Cal, Hawaii, Seattle, NY and a few other places.

    For males, it is an everyday occurrence, race is typically brought up in a direct way or indirect way ( by white, latina or black) women that we date. Funny that in some ways, Asian women’s lives in America are simply lives of white-1A people and not that of Asians. By that I mean, many Asian women growing up in LA or NYC live lifes like a category of slightly different white women, hence 1A. But the Asian male is so downtrodden that he is reminded of his ethnicity throught the “representational stereotypes” of his community, his height, member size, job potential, athletic ability, math ability, etc. every day.

    You couldn’t have more disparate American realities between those lives of Asian Am women vs Asian Am men in terms of job prospects, racism, etc.

    SO we have to get sisters on our side one by one. Yelling at them like this, wow, you are gonna turn them off from ever sympathising with us because they don’t ever have to live like an Asian except at home with their own families. Kimbapper essentially said that.

    Finally, there are agencies and people who have noticed the skills that we have bilingualism, trilingualism, quadlingualism, skills of analysis better than the average Joe, and some are being hired by those agencies but then you are working for the man again ( I won’t make explicit what I am referring to but Mormons are in the same boat ). But like the Asian sister Chua says, better to be a ch!!##@@ and start out at the top, than to sit in a market counting fish heads all day.

    My two cents

  67. Reading mT and Leons responses to Kimbapper is interesting, and really seems offputting. It may be contrite to suggest, but it seems as though their response doesnt come from a place of love and security. I mean, if you were an alpha asian male getting tail all over, then what would you care about some random asian female talking bs?

    that being said Asian men can never EVER win in the interracial af/wm discussion, because no matter what we say as asian males, it just comes across as

    1 whinging
    2 gives asian women fodder to say “see look, i told you so” etc
    3 is used to “prove” to wm structure that asian males arent up to point

    As asian men all we can do is work on ourselves, make ourselves stronger, calling out asian women “whores” dumb” ignorant” is not effective or conducive, even if they are.
    As asian man, i live with dignity, DIGNITY, it means if some women dont date asian, then i move on, or try to enlighten them, not name call them. My purity of mind, security of thought and total confidence in myself makes me an alpha asian male. I dont even need to address self hating asian women, because im concentrating on being the best man i can be, not insecure women , and most women regardless of ethnicity are attracted to that. Overall, love conquers all. If an asian woman is self hating then hating her more wont make her respect asian men or asian culture. Instead we should be talking to people like kimbapper with total quiet subtle confidence that asian men are no.1 no discussion, if she doesnt know, she is missing out on her asian prince. The kind of confidence isnt overtly forceful, rather its gentle unyielding acceptance that some asian men are simply alpha, and that women such as herself are missing out and thats a shame because she couldve found her true soul mate if not for the conditioning of western culture in her brain!!!

    So Kimbapper, if you read this, just know that as an alpha asian male, I understand. I can see your heart in the words you wrote. Though Im not a woman, I empathise with you on how it must feel to be attacked for who you fall in love with, especially from members of family who you care about…it hurts, i mean we follow our hearts in life and love afterall. But kimbapper, I want you know that there are many great guys out there who happen to be asian, who would love to cherish you and warm your heart, if only you would let them close….just something to think about, take care and hope you can find what you are seaching for.

  68. “It may be contrite to suggest, but it seems as though their response doesnt come from a place of love and security.”

    Lol, you’re so rich! Believe me (or not and I can only speak for myself)…but everything I say comes from a great place of security. Being crass, rude, and seemingly angry is just how I best relate to dumb people yet there is no real anger involved on my side. Trust all of what you think you perceive of me comes from not giving a fuck…and not feeling the need to cultivate sisters’ minds, mend sisters’ hearts save sisters’ souls. It’s not my job to educate and show these lost women/girls the light. It’s a waste of my time and compassion. And I’m done wasting my time being loving, caring, understanding, and any other nice, fluffy, cute words you used in your post to only find continued, unrelenting betrayal and disingenuousness. Women/girls like these are lost causes long before you or I ever come in contact with them. Fuck, life is too short to waste your time with bitches and sorry if that sounds bad to a self proclaimed Alpha asian male. Just remember this…words are not used to elucidate but instead meant to disguise, to confound, to obfuscate one’s true intentions/meanings and as such can be manipulated. So you do you and I’ll keep doing me…I’ll keep on keeping it real.

    “I mean, if you were an alpha asian male getting tail all over, then what would you care about some random asian female talking bs?”

    Lol again, you’re really rich and offputting Alpha! Is getting tail all over the place all that matters to you? Interesting and very telling. Personally, I can still get tail “all over the place” as you put it and still care or don’t care as the case may be…and still can tell a dumb bitch off if I want to.

    “My purity of mind, security of thought and total confidence in myself makes me an alpha asian male.”

    Haha, really? Self-promotion much? Thanks, now I know for sure you’re an Alpha Asian male. Lol.

    “Overall, love conquers all. If an asian woman is self hating then hating her more wont make her respect asian men or asian culture. Instead we should be talking to people like kimbapper with total quiet subtle confidence that asian men are no.1 no discussion, if she doesnt know, she is missing out on her asian prince. The kind of confidence isnt overtly forceful, rather its gentle unyielding acceptance that some asian men are simply alpha, and that women such as herself are missing out and thats a shame because she couldve found her true soul mate if not for the conditioning of western culture in her brain!!!”

    Good for you. Keep up the good fight. So relieved to know someone out there is a true Alpha Asian male with awesome life mentoring skills. Ironic thing is, I think and know truly we are trying to accomplish the same thing. You by your ‘sweet’ talk, unconditional acceptance and me by my not giving a fuck what these Asian women think attitude. It all comes from one source…love. It truly does. I love myself enough to not waste my energy and time on women like this. And I love my ‘sisters’ enough to understand that changing their deeply ingrained prejudices, worldview, and mentality is a very difficult thing. They must fulfill their own journey and destiny in life and it’s not my place to interfere with their ‘happiness’. And you are doing the same thing in your own “Alpha Asian male” way as you keep reminding all of us like we’re idiots lest we forget your awesomeness. And that’s not only 100% Alpha; that’s just fucking badass. Cool.

  69. Bryon, can you fix the italics for me? Damn html. Not alpha enough with the html. I joke I joke. But please fix. Thanks

    [ ] instead of

  70. I think a lot people overestimate the effects of our voice either positively or negatively in these matters as well as being somewhat myopic on what these issues represent. When you are talking about this situation you are talking about a system that is very much entrenched in white supremacy. Even for communities with a great deal more solidarity than ours, such as with blacks, you don’t see them rocketing out of their problems with boot strap propulsion devices. White men don’t require proof, these Asian Women that sellout don’t need fodder, and the amount of whining that comes from WMs anywhere and everywhere dwarfs all the whining from every color of the rainbow out there put together. Racism doesn’t need examples, only stupidity and fear which there is plenty of.

    And a lot of people get caught up in the dating issue but it’s not just a dating issue it’s a basic humanity issue. It’s about keeping people down in EVERYTHING and devaluing everything that you do.

  71. Well Asian alpha male,

    You are wrong on one small point about never being able to win in interaccial debate or interracial dating ( actually I re-read your sound bite, I miscontrued it) but I like you spirit in apologizing. It’s my belief that East Asians are getting the call up to serve now. In some very prestigious positions. Sure Hollywood is going to select one black and one white actor just like Collateral with Cruise and Foxx, but in this drama we are playing one of the central heavies. We get major lines, the camera is focused on us and we come through. We come through because they have done their homework ( psychological profiles of all America’s diff ethnicities, then a breakdown on each group, etc.– even though we as a country are supposedly without regard to race, religion, colour. Racist or not, profiling or not, those things make a difference ).

    And this drama is going to last a long long time, maybe 3-5 generations.

    So who was it, Aristotle who said that art must in the end, imitate reality. In the end, we win and America wins because it becomes multicultural. First it was singular primacy ( through 65 and even 75′), then binary, a binary rainbow of sort– nothing more than simulation–sound and fury, lacking substance, remaining binary. Finally, a multihued society with bridges to all religions, colours, creeds, hues.

  72. About binary, I should have said, ” binary, nothing more than simulation, sound and fury, Chua and Rubenfeld, dragon lady and rice king.”

  73. Yay, it’ve turned into a IR debate again

    @Kim

    Sorry to hear about the relationship between you and your brother. I absolutely adore my big sis, and she pretty much loves me unconditionally. We consider each other as best of friends and I’m happy to take a bullet for her any time. The main difference is that my sister will never call me ‘stupid brother’ because she actually loves and respect me and I’ll never have to tell her to respect Asian guys, because she already does.

    @Alpha

    Normally I would agree with you, but I’m leaning towards Leon and Mt in this particular matter (though Mt’s reply was crude).

    You have to look at her post in context though. Eventhough Bryan’s blog post left the opportunity to turn this into an IR debate thing. Everyone behaves and stayed on topic until some rice-chaser came in with a load of BS. And surprise, surprise, she didn’t say one bad word about the rice-chaser but bashes Asian guys unconditionally.

    She’s not interested in a proper discussion, otherwise she would not have said what she did because this discussion was never about IR. She wanted to come in and bash Asian guys and that’s her only purpose (which is confirmed by her comments on the old I-phone thread).

  74. thanks mT, i know also we are trying to accomplish the same thing and that you respect my badass awesomeness. Well, i like to use honey, as opposed to vinegar, as it has worked for me. Thing is, Ive dated asian women who have stated to my face that “they dont usually date asian guys” for all sorts of damaged, miscontrued reasons. But when i hear this, i never blame them or get angry with them as i know its not their fault. Western culture does all this, the white supremacy/judeo christian guilt complex inherent within it , it damages the psychology of asian men and women in many ways. As an asian man, i dont care what the world is saying at that point, im just listening to the fragile, damaged woman in front of me saying “i dont usually date asian guys”……and i can only control how i respond to that. One beautiful woman even told me that she only gave me a chance when she saw me playing rugby and that “asian guys dont usually play physical sports” i was like “wth are you talking about?” in my head! but i replied ” oh okay, well now you know” as at that time theres no point in attacking her words-just my presence in her life is already changing her worldview, thinking, attractions, her everything…..after the point where we had done everything, she cried and said “i love you”…

  75. @ N,

    So her main purpose is to bash asian men? As a man, it seduces me to imagine kimbapper bashing me. I find women who have anger like that incredibly attractive because it means they have passion, and in the bedroom, that mental passion oftens translates to a physical, sensual passion that brings happiness to both parties……her holding tightly me, me penetrating her body and soul….

  76. AlphaAZN,

    Ok man, that made my day about your conversion of the woman (Asian) who doesn’t date Asians. Absolutely made my day!! Best story yet and short!

    But we have all heard this stuff before. It is so silly it is unbelievable. In my opinion, it is the media blinding these people. Let’s say I was the starting safety before, long long ago. 22 men ( some two way starters ) but on average you can have maybe 3-4-5 Asian guys who are the starters.

    You hear this from the women ( Asian Am ) when they give you all this attention as if you have broken through the bubble, yes, you ( me in this case ) are the only one and she gives you way more attention than any kid who has already been accepted into an Ivy school ( this is hs we are talking about ).

    Then you wonder to yourself, ” ( to the woman) Where have you been?–There’s been Asian guys on this team for a long long time. 2-3-4- out of 22 starters. ”

    It is the media believe me. Oh let me repeat again, I am 5’2″ and was the starting safety with thick thick thick trifocals (joke ), but hey that is the media too, just look at Breakfast at Tiffany’s and Mickey Rooney’s part.

  77. So her main purpose is to bash asian men? As a man, it seduces me to imagine kimbapper bashing me. I find women who have anger like that incredibly attractive because it means they have passion, and in the bedroom, that mental passion oftens translates to a physical, sensual passion that brings happiness to both parties……her holding tightly me, me penetrating her body and soul….

    Christ, WTF AlphaAZN?!!! Is this the same “retired AlphaAZN”? This whole thing has deteriorated into some sick perverted shit. And what’s all this shit about getting the girl because I’m a big, bad football player? Seriously, wtf is this? High school for dummies? Christ…wished I never said anything.

  78. mT,

    It’s fixed. It’s not the same Alpha-Asian as our blogger friend James. So now we’ve got Alpha-Asian, James, and AlphaAzN. :)

  79. @Jaehwan

    Back to our discussion on Got Fan. Though this blog is in chinese, it’s worth looking at the pictures of what Got Gan Fan (葛根粉) looks like:
    http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_49f869540100k746.html

    Apparently it comes a little lumpy, but once you pour cold water on top, it dissolves quite well. Add a bit of sugar and start cooking/stirring it, once everything is dissolved, let it cool and is ready to be served.

    So it’s just a matter of finding where they sell 葛根粉, I guess it’s worth the effort printing out the chinese name and asking the asian stores.

    But here’s what it should look like when packaged.
    http://a2.att.hudong.com/18/07/01300000251577122559074729715_s.jpg

  80. J,

    thanks for pointing out the difference between Alpha Asian (aka James) and AlphaAzN.

  81. Mojo,
    No problem.

    N,
    That is TOTALLY goot foon!!! I recognize that consistency.

    I was planning to go to the other side of the river this weekend, but somehow we just didn’t make it over. Maybe sometime this week? I definitely want to get some of that. If you find it where you are, let me know.

  82. Here’s a great quote from Philip on YOMYOMF on the original topic:

    http://youoffendmeyouoffendmyfamily.com/in-defense-of-amy-chua-a-k-a-milf-y-angry-overachieving-chinese-mother/comment-page-1/

    “She’s not stupid. If she were married to an Asian guy, she wouldn’t have as much legitimacy with her target audience: the American a.k.a. the white public (Asian Americans don’t buy books so who gives a fuck about them anyway?). White folks would dismiss her argument that the Chinese ways are better than the Western ways with the refrain of, “She’s just a chink, what does she know?””

  83. I’d like to emphasize that I’m an Asian female who prefers to date Asian men.

    There are two important factors that hasn’t been brought onto spotlight when discussing IR between Asian women and everybody else. Besides all the stereotypes that tries to justify why Asian women are race traitors and why white males are of popular choice.

    #1 Maybe because white race is the MAJORITY race in the U.S. The IR relationships between AF/WM are high in the U.S. but not everywhere else. When you have white race that constitutes over 70% of the U.S. population and only mere 4-5% of Asian race, guess what, white race will engulf Asian race in America.

    #2 Asian men have it bad after they adopted Confuscianism ideology. This idiotic ideology made Asian countries a backward society and with the discrimination against class and women, it has women fleeing away from Asian culture. Even though white guys claim Asian women uphold this ideology, in reality, not to a degree that they would have if married to an Asian men. This also explains why Asians in lower social class immigrates to western countries, like the U.S. This ideology makes Asian men seem weak and feeble. I find it amusing how Asian men refuse to change to a different ideology since it puts them in a better light and also to show loyalty to what constitutes Asian culture. Hey, if it doesn’t work, let it go. Women tend to be attracted to the strong, dominant men and Asian men just don’t show it. Men might call it being “laid-back” but others see it as spineless and weak. If you look at pre-Confuscious era, Asian men were the dominant, strong warriors that won over other races, especially the European, white race!!! Get rid of the nonsense garbage of Confuscianism.

    I, personally, find Asian women who dates old white guys disgusting and unbearable to see, my reasoning above adds fuel to the fire. The important question is, how are you Asian men going to change this phenomenon?

  84. Chris-

    #1 The vast majority of Asian Americans are concentrated in large urban areas with a mix of black, white, and immigrants from all backgrounds. Maybe when Asian women actually date, fall in love with, and marry other NON-WHITE, non-Asians, then you might actually have a point.

    #2 Right, because there’s no such thing as white patriarchy. And because all Asian men are from Asia with their backwards Confucian ideals. There’s no such thing as 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or even 5th generation Asian men born in America.

    I say all Asian American men should band together, arm ourselves and invade the countries of Asian and bring American freedom, liberty and sexual equality to those backward countries! Who’s with me?

  85. Leon,

    The problem with your idea Leon is that societies in East Asia are highly stratified. You can go there and the women will treat you like a king– only BC of your US passport.

    Watch how they treat the others and especially watch how they treat the people that they think are “below” them. It is horrible.

    Look at Korea, China– it’s all about materialism and brand name– whether it be education or what you are wearing. What they don’t realize is that the locus of control lies outside of them. They can buy as many Mercedes as they want but they aren’t Mercedes bc Mercedes doesn’t show the gook or the chinaman in the ads. They show the Amer, the Brit, the European ( anglos, since we are Americans too, don’t want to offend anyone here ).

    They think that economics=> materialism makes them equal to any Westerner, American by having sons and daughters go to Harvard, 10 Mercedes. But that is just shallow as is their understanding of geopolitics.

    You can send all of your kids to Harvard, but you are just a paying customer, increasing Harvard’s wealth. When they allow equal representation at Harvard of people with your mindset, pov and phenotype/ethnicity– then you have equality. What I mean by that is, the people who write the script for Harvard are the professors, easily to have 22% ASian Ams in Harvard, much much harder to have even 5% Asian Am profs there.

    Otherwise, you are just the guy buying all the Mercedes but when they make a James Bond movie of the suave Westerner awash in guns, power, women and luxury– if they aren’t willing to put your type of face in that role, then you and your people have no real “soft power” or street cred, if you want to call it that.

    That is what most Asian Am’s don’t get and never understand. They prefer to be the marionette or the imitating monkey. Let me buy all them damn Mercedes, drink all the Remy Martin ( all exclusive luxury goods ) even though my face won’t shine as a representative.

    Just my two cents

  86. Last thing I would like to add,

    Many of the Asian American studies classes are good, I have taken a few myself or actually audited a few. But they are stuck in the kumbaya 60’s of power to the brown and yellow people.

    I see all these reference to “white patriarchy” and all this other stuff. The thing about those classes is this, they told us we must support all minorities even if the agenda goes against at first blush, Asian American’s and Asian Americna policitics. For example, affirmative action–where many Asian am profs got into schools in the 60s and 70s as a result of AFF Action but by 80’s Asians were frozen out of those programs.

    That rhetoric only promoted the idea that Asians were all middle class and going to good schools anyways, the very fact that these same Asian Amer studies profs try to debunk in their classes, as they teach that some 30% of Asian Americans live below the poverty line.

    Think for yourself is all I can you many of you. The Asian American studies myths only led to the creation of a “strong nativist” sentiment and politics among African Americans and your white establishment. One hand talks to the other without consulting the others in the boat of multiculturalism.

    Watch today in America, is it not a country of two native groups or at least two groups that portray themselves as natives and the others as the so-called “perpetual foreigners.” Look at government hiring and Obama’s public works project. 55% of gov employees are white, another 35% are African American. Why is that?

    They are the unconscious “natives” in the current configuration of America.

    My two cents

  87. the irony in those ivies is that it’s the Asian students that prop up the test scores. if it were not for Asian students, would the \legacy\ students like GW Bush set the curve with their ‘gentlemen C’ grades?

    and of course, despite how much elitist white racists at the ivies try to limit Asians, both Asian-Americans and Asia-Asians pay insane amounts of tuition just for the privilege of being the massa’s lackey.

  88. hey just me, I like the way you think, its very high level….just wanted to state that, no homo

  89. It’s was all in the chess matches ( ha!).

    It was like what Benjamin Button said, “Viaje por el mundo, vea y siente cosas que le animan, y si a usted no le guste lo que vea en el espejo, cambiase de inmediato y de una vez para siempre.

    Y si no puede realizar esto, por los menos viaje con la mente ( inventando tu proprio mundo y construyendo ideas originales ).

    A fin de cuentas, Senor Alphaasiatico,

    Amor por el conciudadano ( el compai) y otros seres humanos, no hay nade de maricon en esto. Blanca deles la traduccion, pf.

    Just me

  90. There are a couple of issues coming up from commenters, here and elsewhere around the Asian-American blogosphere that I have a problem with.

    1) Chua is not Chinese, she’s Filipino. So she doesn’t know what she’s talking about.
    I’m glad that Jaehwan addressed this.
    How would you feel if someone told you, “You’re not American, you’re Asian”?
    Probably you would get pissed at them erroneously defining who you are according to their limited perspectives.
    Ethnic identity and national identity are different things. Chua is Chinese AND Filipino. AND American.

    2) How can she think Chinese parenting is so superior, and then go marry a Jewish guy? Sell-out.

    No, no, no. Whatever one thinks of the broader trend of Asian women marrying white men, to apply that on an individual level (in this case, Chua and her husband) is bullshit, I’m afraid.
    The logical conclusion of this thought process – that by dating and marrying outside your race, you are less true to your Asian-ness – is messed up. And I dare say, perhaps smacks of Asian male sexism about no one else being allowed to touch “our” women, as if Asian women are Asian men’s exclusive property.
    Do any of us truly understand Chua’s psyche in relation to the race of who she chooses to be with? No. Then we shouldn’t speak as if we know. Chua chose a particular man who happened to be white. It’s not the same thing as rejection of Asian males as a whole.
    Who you love is who you love. It’s not a race-based sociological phenomenon.

    Critique Chua’s questionable ideas about parenting, by all means. But base it on what she actually says – ie. read the book, not just an article that was selectively edited by the WSJ. Don’t base it on spurious notions of who you THINK she is.

  91. @the mutt: you need to pull your head out of that cesspool known as your butt and take up reading comprehension courses at your local JC.

    the sellout doesn’t portray herself as Chinese-Filipino-American, but as “Chinese” in the book and the WSJ article. what spurious notions are you referring to, when it’s bright as day (again when your head is out of your ass) that she’s capitalizing on the yellow peril anti-Chinese paranoia.

    as far marrying a whitey and your junior-high school “love is love” spiel: AF is colorblind, as long its white.

    lastly, “our women” is just a tad strawman argument don’t you know? please go read up on logical debate before you respond.

  92. Crazy mm’er:

    What’s with the “mutt” statement? Check yourself, dude–that’s not cool. I mean, really, that’s totally uncalled for. There’s no reason to get ad hominem with someone who makes a perfectly logical statement. Again, someone has something to teach you, so listen up.

    And lighten up, for God’s sake! This whole stiff, reactionary thing has gotta be tiring you out in a really bad way. Breathe in, breathe out. If you’re Chinese like me, our ancestors were Buddhist–and there’s a lot of wisdom there.

  93. I also think an apology is in order, crazy mm’er. You’re basically attacking someone because of their race. I think you’re angry, but that’s no reason to lash out at someone like that.

  94. Eurasian Sensation,

    Thanks for commenting! You’ve been on my blogroll for a few weeks now, and I love reading about stuff down under!

    Just ignore crazy mm’er; he’s crazy. And angry. If you look at his other comments, you probably realize that he’s really angry. Occasionally he does hit on some good points…I have hope.

    I agree with your comment totally. I think we can look at the whole of society regarding IR, but it’s not right or helpful to judge people on an individual level. I have relatives and friends who’ve crossed that line, and there are usually a variety of reasons it happens. But in ALL cases, it’s not right to judge a person, especially, as you mention, if the judge hasn’t even spoken to that person!

    And yes, she’s definitely ethnic Chinese. I read her World on Fire, and the world she describes is very similar as what other ethnic Chinese from that part of the world have told me.

  95. @ Jaehwan:
    Nah it’s cool, I don’t pay too much mind to “crazy” people. Someone who is going to insult me on a racial level is unlikely to be worth my time anyway.

    Personally, I can cop to having had antagonistic feelings about the gender balance in white-Asian relationships. But at the same time, there’s no way I’m in a position to judge the reasons any two individuals choose to be together.

    The many ethnic Chinese in SE Asia identify to varying degrees with Chinese culture, from a great deal to not at all – much like Chinese in America, I imagine. In my experience, Western-born kids of ethnic Chinese parents from SE Asia tend to identify more with Chinese culture than with that of the SE Asian country. But obviously it depends a lot on individual circumstances.

  96. Haha! Cool deal, Eurasian Sensation.

    I think you’re exactly right. I wish some of Xian’s old posts were still available on the 44s. He taught me a lot about his views on the gender balance. He is half Chinese, half White, and was one of my favorite commenters on that site. He also ended up marrying a Caucasian woman. Great guy, and you’re right–it never works to judge people on an individual level.

    My wife’s family is actually Chinese from SE Asia, so it comes into our discussions quite a bit. It’s a whole different world over there, and ethnic identification is even stronger there than in the U.S.–if that’s possible!

  97. Ok, I understand being cool with it because we cannot prejudge people.

    But there are a couple of caveats I think that could be reiterated ( now of course they are not true in every case, but I would say the majority of cases ).

    1. the real ratio of AF-WM vs AM-WF outmarriage in the US is about 6 to 1 for Asian Americans who are US citizens and culturally American. It is possible and more likely probable that there is a lot of negative animus towards Asian males from Asian Am females.

    2. Many times the Anglo male in the AF-WM relationship portrays his task ( but it is always unspoken ) as liberating the said Asian Am female, liberating her from Asian patriarchy, Eastern culture and its strict confinements whatever. CHua very well may have been saying” Oh yeah, I don’t like this, this and this about Chinese culture and men. My dad was ….” as an undergraduate.
    But now, once liberated and outside of the community through marriage, they too are pigeonholed as the “China expert.” Notice now how she writes and talks about this discipline and how she fully embraces it and sees to replicate it. I keep thinking to myself ” Pigeonholed!”

    I smell a snake here if you don’t mind me saying that. If she was so into discipline why marry a guy so obviously laid back? What is it that he offers her in terms of social contract?

    3. The women who marry out, I see their kids, especially sons and I want to make this comment. Of the Eurasians, unless they totally do not look Asian or were a Div 1 athletes, these ones who were not ( let’s say 75% who are male, 50-50 and look by phenotype Asian ), they experience alot of what we full Asians experience. This is extremely difficult for a few of them because their mothers placed high expectations on them that they would seemingly just ” blend” into American society and somehow, they find that they cannot quite fit into mainstream Am soc. nor a subculture which is the Asian American society.

    Also, Eurasian Sensation, my comments are not directed towards you at all, no hate, not trying to screw with you.

    Matter of fact, we welcome you into our community with open arms. You provide us with an added perspective and hopefully, a sensitivity that we can all learn from. But what if I was full Asian but lost my parents when I was 10 and was adopted by two white parents. I might know what it is to be white as well so you can’t write me off just because I don’t look white.

    I am having fun with this but how about more input from women and or Jewish people.

  98. @ Just me:
    If she was so into discipline why marry a guy so obviously laid back? What is it that he offers her in terms of social contract?

    I guess what I would say is that people aren’t just choosing partners based on a set of criteria. Haven’t most of us at some point dated someone based on chemistry, even if they logically weren’t a good fit?

    As well, when someone is dominating in one aspect of a relationship (ie. parenting), it doesn’t follow that they are dominating in every other facet of it. For example, some of the toughest women have extremely vulnerable sides that only their partners are privy to.

    And I don’t find it too hard to believe that Chua’s husband might just be a really nice fella with plenty of good qualities other than just being white.

  99. I think this author is pretty funny. She speaks as a representative for all Chinese parents when she doesn’t speak Chinese, all her sisters other than her mentally handicapped sister married white men and her children see themselves as Jewish. If you marry outside your race and your spouse is of the majority ethnicity (Jewish in NY) your culture ends with you. Her kids will be as Chinese as any other New Yorker is. I think she is ashamed of her heritage. I make that assumption based on the fact none of her sisters married Asian and clearly there was a skewed view that resonated in that household. She writes this book because she is unfortunately Asian but is a way to feel important to her white audience as an ethnic informant. She hangs her race out to dry. I hope in the end she is further ostracized by her beloved white community and isolated as she has already turned her back on her fellow Asians. Clearly, she is simply unhappy. Only unhappy and angry Asian parents were as abusive as she describes. misery loves company. Her book should be tagged, miserable banana mother.

  100. In regards to women who date solely white men, they typically are not the prettiest Asian girl, don’t know a lick about there culture / don’t speak the native tongue or are embarrassed about it. And if they are from the midwest, do the worst makeup! Like white girl makeup that is just not fitting. Just my observations. Don’t really care for them. Not sure why so many guys are upset. If you are that upset, go to Asia where the marriage ratios are in your favor if you are that gung ho on finding an Asian chick and the statistics make you feel better. There are plenty of Asian girls that date only Asian guys and if you find one they are typically proud of it, speak the mother tongue, likely prettier and do the appropriate makeup!

  101. @ Mike:

    “If you marry outside your race and your spouse is of the majority ethnicity (Jewish in NY) your culture ends with you.”

    I’m sorry, but no. In some cases, certainly, but it depends a lot on individual circumstances. If the white partner has a reasonably strong engagement with the minority culture, then most likely the child will too.

    My Indonesian mother married into the majority race, so by your logic I must be totally oblivious of her culture. You’ll be happy to know I’m studying to be a teacher of the Indonesian language.

    Oh, except the girl I’m probably going to marry is Indian. Does that mean I’m ashamed of my culture?

  102. Didn’t Bruce Lee marry a White girl? Frank Chin married a White woman too (although he also married an Asian woman earlier).

    And Mike, not pretty? What about Amy Chua herself? Not that it matters, but I had a discussion with an older Asian woman who said, “Oh my God! She’s 48! She looks great!” :)

    In other news, check out Lac Su’s (“I Love Yous Are For White People” appearance on CNN:

    http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/01/20/lac.su.tiger.mother.scars/index.html?iref=allsearch

  103. Mike,

    I take it you read her book right? The information you got about her sisters is from the book? ( requesting an answer on this )?

    One thing, she states that she speaks Mandarin and was forced by her parents to speak Mandarin. This really really could be hogwash because most Chinese in the Phillipines were southern Chinese speaking the various Hakka, Cantonese, Toisan, some Taiwanese dialects.

    Last thing, I hate to say this and I don’t want to offend even though this is a huge generalization, but I seem to see this a lot in the Chinese, that they are taught by their parents conflicting messages 1. many typically have an idea of themselves as “mainstream people” this is very different than Koreans who see themselve as minorities ( wherever they may be and thus a need to defend their identities ).

    2. As a result of idea 1., many Chi Ams then strive to assimilate with all their might.

    3. Some parents in Chin Amer families teach the kids to respect and try to keep the Chinese culture, but it seems to me that the overriding message is always, Assimilate, You are Just as good As Them ( the mainstream American ).

    Therefore, very little real Confucian values ( or as the previous poster wrote Confuscion– was this perhaps on purpose meaning confusion of confucian values or a general state of confusion as a result of confucian values living in the West, lol ).

    Notice how many of these Chi Am success story women date and have only ever date white me ( after the age of let’s say 18 ). Look at the Ivies and the Chin Amer women there, it would be my guess that 50% do not date Asians. Koreans in my opinion would be lower than that. So how does one maintain the Confucian respect for the father, the head of the household, if one would not date someone of the opposite sex who parallels this paradigm?

    Asian Sensation–One thing, there is a certain rhyme and reason in America ethnic hierarchies. Michelle Malkin, Chua, Hong Kingston, Phoebe Eng Shroff, they all have married men on the same ethnicity.

    It doesn’t mean anything is wrong with this ethnicity, simply that they like Asian women ( we do too ) but they also in America have direct access to the keys of power— media, academia, etc– now so do Irish and Italian Americans.

    But Asian Sensation, there are ways in which the world works. It’s can’t just be, ” It’s all good!” all the times, you see certain patterns replicating themselves over and over in every society. Too much of this ” it’s all good, no direct harm, no foul” would render your analysis to not be analysis.

    The point is and it is made in all the academic literature, in cases of mixed race children, typically it is the male who keeps the values because he cannot escape the designation of being a gook, or a chink in societies eyes. But the women of mixed marriages are often given that option of one or the other, typically by statistics they marry the majority race while the male offspring have a much more difficult time working out the issues of identity. The male offspring is in a sense, left holding the bag.

    I stated this ( not so directly) in an earlier post. You just confirmed it with the information. Now changing tone, I ain’t bagging on you ( lord knows I am 5’2″, scrawny as hell, and I have trifocals ). Simply pointing out that, one side of the brain has to say ” It’s all good” so that we continue to move along in society without being a clog and fight the good fight.

    But there are hierarchies and paradigms in American society that we as Asian Americans need to change or ameliorate little by little of course. It’s not worthwhile to keep repeating the mantra ” there is no race, only love” that is utopia, but we live in reality.

    In the end as a minority, you will need your powers of analysis. If I gave an estimate, it might be that you have to be 25% better just to be equal– because after all, you are a ch@@!!k or a g@@!!k, no matter if you were 5’2″ like I am, scrawny as hell, wearing pocket protector at all times along with nerd shirt or the football jock.

  104. @ just me:

    I like your comment.

    My concern is that while it is one thing to talk about alarming trends on a macro level, it’s much more tricky to speak this way on an individual level.

    As an analogy, it’s like complaining about the way that wealthy people dominate the power structure of a society, and then hating on an individual person who happens to be wealthy, without knowing anything else about that person.

    I know we all love to judge people – secretly, it’s fun – but the reality is that it’s not always that simple to put people into neat little boxes. As Jaehwan stated before, Bruce Lee married a white woman. I’ve not heard anyone describing him as a sellout. Perhaps that’s just because he did something that is less demographically trendy.

    I’ve got no love for Asian women who disparage Asian manhood and flatly refuse to date an Asian man. The problem is that I think too often we assume that Asian women who date white men are guilty of this. And I’ll wager that in the majority of cases, that’s just not the case.

    (Although in the case of Michelle Malkin, anything you want to accuse her of is probably true. She’s evil.)

    I agree that as a overall demographic trend, the gender imbalance in white/Asian relationships sucks. But on an individual level, what’s to be done about it?

    I have a Chinese friend who is very lovely and very Chinese, but the reality is that few Chinese men seem to want to date her because she is tallish, loud and not stereotypically feminine in the traditional Chinese fashion. Thus she dates white guys; the lack of Asian guys approaching her has made that choice for her. Obviously that’s only one person, but my point is that when you drill down, things aren’t always as simple as they seem.

    I sometimes wonder if Asian guys should really be getting mad at white women, for not being so ready to “go Asian” as white men are.

  105. Eurasian Sensation and JaeHwan ( is this a Chn name or Korean?)

    Yes, but both you and Jaehwan are young, when you get a bit older, then we can meet, let’s say sometime at UC Berkeley, at one of the pubs there.

    I don’t mean to disparage you but what I am saying is experience, time, it all goes against what we learn in college or that great American line, judge the individual and rugged individualism. One previous poster said it, how many Asian-Asian couples make it big institutionally.

    There is a right brain and a left brain. Right brain will always think in terms of tribe. American majorities that cannot compete against the various Asian hordes ( Chi, Jap, Kor, Indians ), they will continue to use the feeling of tribe against the \new Americans.\

    It does not matter if they team with Latinos but that is not the favorite minority for those type manuevers, we all know who is and I don’t need to say it.

    If you continue to think ONLY in terms of logic and the ideal, the left brain both you and Jaehwan will have some problems dealing with what really happens done the road. Office politics are dirty, geo-politics even more so. Go to certain hot spots right now see what is really going on.

    Take the Assange case ( now I know I am going way way way off on a tangent but it comes back around to the point). This is much less off base than Goot Foon or whatever that Chinese dish is called. Assange is a nut about 1st amendment rights and his idea of revolutionizing information to bring about equality for the everyman. The little man through information– actionable information keeps those like the neo con elites ( but in reality, all elites are involved, did Obama bring back home the troops, what about the Clintons?) in check. Because theoretically, you can hold referendums and take those people out of power ( I emphasize– theoretically). It’s in the constitution and the 1st amendment rights are there in almost every Western 1st world democracy.

    But look at the Assange trial, being tried for rape to be extradited to Norway. Why Norway? Well they have some of the most liberal laws in the world. One, is rape laws that on a technicality, even the man or woman assents to sex, it can be considered rape if the man does not use a condom and he is asked to. Now in both cases with Assange, there was full consent, Assange had dinner with both women, wine in their apartments, but HE did not agree to use a condom. But they requested that he use a condom. There are no samples of the encounters unlike the Clinton-Lewinsky case.

    The case boils down to \he said, she said.\ So to try to extradit a guy for rape on the most technical of technicalities ( she requested condom use, he did not agree, they went and had sex anyways, he says that she consented, she says \ Well yes and no. I had sex with Assange for over an hour but I was angry that he yada, yada, yada,\ typically the case and the request for extradition gets thrown out of court right then and there. Each of the women had sex with Assange for over one hour. How the heck can there at least not be some consent ( at least from the right brain).

    You could not win in any court of law and yet what Clinton did should have been actionable and was not. Therefore, my point is there is a lot of dirty dirty politics in this world and the ideals that you guys spout is not lining up with reality because,\ Where in the heck are his 1st amendment rights?\
    Therefore the lesson in my POV is there are 1st amendment rights, there are rape laws to protect women and men, but there is also rendition, and in times of war, there are courts and judges and possibly women that can receive cush jobs ( remember Monica Lewinsky got an Avon job paying her 150K a year after the internship with Bill Cliton ) that allow for renditions ( however unjust they are )to be carried out if you decide to try to hold accountable the current geopolitical humpty-dumpty ( alone at the top ).

    You guys can spout all of that that you want, but make sure that’s at work and at home, teach the kids to have keep in mind that politics and the real world are quite another thing. Also I am did not get that analysis of the Assange case from an Asian Am studies nor any other course or book from someone else. The point is again, if you are a gook-chink, then keep those powers of analysis handy. Sure America is a multicultural society and it is finally coming around to accepting its Asian Americans but life could be cruel, I could have been Arab American, the starting safety, etc and how many people would be looking at my resume and giving me a chance? Almost zero.

    There are hierarchies, ways in which the world work, if you spout too much of this American literature– rugged individualism, Ayn Rand stuff, then you need to take a look around this world just a little bit more. You can keep doing it but you set yourself up for failure or your kids for failure. There always must be a balance between ideals and the rubber hits the road– but of course, you have your 1st amendment right even if Julian Assange and PVC 1st Br. Manning have lost theirs. Lesson two, don’t go off and screw with any large government. I can disparage the US as a native but in the end, as far as personal and material liberties go, this place is a paradise.

  106. JaeHwan,

    Bruce Lee married a white woman but you are taking it out of context, that ratio is still 6-1 and without little ol Bruce, it would have been 7-1.

    You guys need to wake up a bit, if you marry a white woman and she is attractive and you are Asian, there are guys that will try to stare you down and or make smirks or remarks whether at an upscale restaurant, out playing tennis ( the two of you ) or wherever. It happens and keeps happening, very subtlely of course. One of us here knows from experience.

    AF-WM never gets any of the same micro-aggression, nativist agressions.

    Just me

  107. @ Just me:
    “AF-WM never gets any of the same micro-aggression, nativist agressions.”

    I beg to differ on that. That’s unfortunately a reasonably common thing when you date someone of a different race. A white friend of mine was ambushed by a gang of Vietnamese guys, for no other reason than he was dating an Asian girl. I’ve known Punjabi guys to threaten a white guy at a club because he was dancing with a Punjabi girl. I’ve got the death stare from an Indian waiter for having the temerity to dine at his restaurant with an Indian girl.
    Maybe it happens more to those in AM-WF relationships, I can’t say. But men of every race have the ugly tendency to get possessive about “their” women.

  108. [Deleted but not banned. Reason: No Dopelgangers allowed. If you want to participate, don’t pretend to be someone you’re not.]

  109. Chris,

    What you say reminds me of Iris Chang, the journalist who wrote Rape of Nanking. This was reported on TV news in Calif. After she passed, her husband found another Chinese American woman who looked like her and was named Iris also.

    So it kind of supports what you are saying. Does anyone remember the WM, PHD student in Mathematics at Princeton who was using his fluids and had a fetish for Asian women about 10 years ago. He too was married to a Chinese American woman. When he was caught, his wife broke down and said she had no idea that he had these fetishes for Asian women and that he had collected an enormous quantity of Asian women’s panties stolen from the graduate dorm at Princeton.

  110. Oh, I forgot, who was this Chua person? We have gotten so off topic. Unconsciously, I know am guilty of taking it off subject but it is a much more enjoyable ride this way.

  111. Sorry, I’m totally lost on the Assange comparison. Eurasian said that you can look at the macro society but cannot use the same argument against a specific individual. How did Assange come into this?

  112. In a similar vein, y’ever notice…it’s always these valley-girl accented, psuedo-intellectual, pseudo-feminist asian women who will complain about ‘yellow fever’, and then guess who they are always married to?! But you have to admit, it’s a very clever ploy on their part. Plant the idea in everybody’s minds that ‘yellow fever’ is rampant. This in turn paints her and all other AF/WM women as the ‘innocent victim’ of guys who supposedly have this yellow fever. Then no one will think to question HER, and HER possibly racist self-hating dating patterns. Real slick.

  113. Also, why not just make the title of the book “Why Chinese/Asian mothers are superior to you western/non asian mothers”? And since she lives in the US and much of her audience is therefore Western, and we know her husband is white, and many asian women in Manhattan marry white men, the title is sorta like waving a red flag.

    Ms Chua made the comment that she didn’t ‘choose’ the title of the book. Well you know what, she also didn’t strike it down either, when it was proposed to her…something she clearly could have done had she cared to do so.

  114. Bobby, No, There are non-Koreans who find Korean stars very very hot!!!

    Jaehwan, I’ve been banned on other sites ran by weakling coward Asian men like yourself, YES TO 1ST AMENDMENT AND TO THE TRUTH!!!

  115. Did you want me to ban you? I could do that. I figured that I’d give you the opportunity to quit embarrassing yourself and to learn something. It’s up to you though. I think I’m being more than reasonable.

  116. “BLOGGERS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of BLOG speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the INTERNET for a redress of grievances.”

  117. HAHA! Those damn oppressive bloggers. Damn, I never realized that I was part of the establishment. Down with the bloggers! Down with the Man!

  118. the Assange argument is that theoretically, we have all these rights, we can remove corrupt elitist leaders.

    In reality, that rarely happens. The internet was propped up by hackers in the beginning as a new microcosm of free speech and egalitarian values, Assange supports this in word and deed, yet …

    So what I am saying to you JaeHwan and Eurasian Sensation is that all rhetoric about individual and whatnot, it needs to be balanced by a real pragmatism and as of yet, I haven’t seen that, only these high ideals spouted over and over again.

    Yip pointed out some things that are very true. You can play the game of individual choices and whatnot but remember Eurasian Sensation considers himself Asian and spends his time on Asian community and academic topics. This is also predicted by the research that showd that mixed race Asian caucasian kids– the women typically marry white and feel themselves white, while the males find comfort in Asianness. Why is that? Society has different rules.

    A recognition of that instead of the BS, free choice, free speech, rugged individualism, Ayn Rand stuff, reason above existentialism, intellect over senses, all this BS that you guys keep repeating makes me think that you guys are in a college time warp.

    Well at least Eurasian Sensation said he was still in uni, but you JH? You set people up to fail if there isn’t a mix of pragmatism along with ideals. Watch hiring at the universities for example. People like to present it as the best scholar and a competition among ideas of the said scholars in order to get hired. But in the application process, people will pull every trick in the book in order to get hired and make sure that the nearest competition doesn’t get hired.

    This is the animal in all of us. Yip is explaining this pretty well

  119. Last comment JaeHwan,

    You are doing all this Asian American thing but by your words, you are stating ” I am an American, I am equal to every other American. I am strong, just ME for who I am and not by my race!”

    Fine but you are in a community forum. You and the work that you do here implies that that rhetoric has failed you to some extent. You have felt prejudice and sometimes the limits of ethnicity imposed by others. If not, you wouldn’t be here doing this.

    Notice how your words keep repeating the American “rugged individualism” mantra, but your actions of the website and this much involvement indicated that there is a disconnect between ideals and reality.

    C’mon guys can’t we have just a little better understanding of our own limits and limits of society and a little better understanding of when words are just words.

    For some very math and science analytical people, they don’t seem to understand society and human relations that these rules are rarely ever stated openly but acted upon regularly. In this sphere, words are simply meant to fool others.

    Please let up a little bit on this idealistic crap, if it really was this way, and merit trumps all, why are you here stuck among majority Asian Americans talking only about Asian Am issues, Asian community issues?

    Finally if merit trumps all, we would have some Ivy league schools with 40-50% Asian Am enrollment. Funny like Lowell h.s. for 90 years until 1980, it was majority white. Then in 1980 or so, it tips over 50% Asian Am. Then suddenly the rules have to be changed to allow diversity. Well, the establishment said nothing for 90 years.

    Those are patterns and hierarchies and the Chinese in America, especially the analytical college superstar types, they don’t get it. They don’t get it that when Chang Tien Lien became Pres at UC Berkeley, Asian Am enrollment dropped 2 points so his appointment was for what reason?

    C’mon guys wake up! Or at least don’t set up others to fall.

  120. @JustMe: spot on! i just don’t have the patience anymore to deal with numbnuts who don’t understand anything about how the real world works.

    other than the pseudo-liberal PC kumbaya BS, is there anything original that the apologists can come up with?

    the difference between Byron, the mutt vs myself is that I don’t pretend to be nice and not make judgments. you just have to read your own posts to realize you make judgments against others regardless of what you say otherwise.

    it’s BS to say that “love is colorblind” when it’s clear as day that colorblind = white only.

  121. @ Just Me,

    correction about being “still in uni”. I’ve recently returned to study part-time at age 34 for a change in career direction. Funnily enough, I probably would have agreed more with you when I was younger. Now that I’m a bit more seasoned and seen the world a bit more, my way of thinking has shifted after realising that while some patterns hold true sometimes, things are often far less simple than we would like them to be. It’s often too easy to revert to stereotypes and dichotomous thinking. By which I mean putting someone like Amy Chua into the camps of “she embraces her culture” and “she hates and rejects her culture”, and so on. Most people defy such easy categorisation.

    @ Crazy MMer:

    of course I make judgements and don’t pretend otherwise. It’s instinctive. At the same time, it is possible to logically analyse that an initial judgement might not be exactly correct.

    If I chose only to see “way the world works” the way you do, I’d probably be angry too. And while there’s plenty of things to be angry about, I don’t want to get angry and start hating on people unless I’m sure it’s based on facts rather than my own interpretations and prejudices.

    Kumbaya,

    “The Mutt.”

  122. Look how you kiss ass to Eurasian who is half white, yet you lash out at the Asian guy.

    Dammit, Jaehwan, I’m shocked at you. Here I was, thinking we were getting along because we agreed on some stuff… yet now I find out it’s only because you love my whiteness.
    Make sure to only form your opinions along racial lines next time.

  123. “Look how you kiss ass to Eurasian who is half white, yet you lash out at the Asian guy.”

    Does that mean that Jaehwan is only kissing the White butt cheek, but is repeatedly kicking the Asian side? Man, that Jaehwan is one messed up dude!

  124. Eurasian Sens–

    The more I read of you, the more I thought that we actually agree. Yeah many cases are simply too complicated too judge. I agree with that. I believe that one has to form opinions though and I would say that as a guessestimate, I think one can form an opinion on about 60% of what we see. The other 40%, you have to hold your tongue, you mind and give it time.

    In that sense, I totally agree with you on big picture life. And there is no sense in fighting and calling someone a mutt or even the whole Asian American thing. This blended ethnic group ( of all the supposed Asians ) has the possibility of never ever going anyway politically or socially in the US. Too divided along lines of sex-male vs female– but the two are treated as if they are completely different ethnicities, divided along lines of 1st generation vs. all others, divided ethnically–Indian, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, etc. No one wants to speak out.

    So MM’er– In the end, you might just have to pack in the anger to save your heart from a heart attack or high blood pressure. The community may never ever go anywhere in regards to what you or me or others might define as success. But the US has enough freedoms and representation for Asian men now, that if that is the route that the others want to go on, you have to leave it and make sure that you path is secure.

    I think that alot of the Asian women– most that are famous and especially those who have married out, have already surmised that, the struggle is too great for them, so then you can have take care of you.

    MM’er, I know your heart is in the right place, but the Asian “presence” if you want to call it, is always to sit back and sit back, take criticism but do their own thing. It doesn’t bode well for Western succcess. So you might want to channel the energy into just taking care of you. That is exactly what most of these Asian female success stories are about.

    I have heard it from Asian women at the Ivies, I don’t want to be with those losers, so their social group and who they respect and marry, it white America. They define everything in the media anyways. Change will come but it is gonna be a long time to get to where you want, 3-5 generations maybe.

    Just take care of you.

    J– or Just Me

  125. @Euro

    I wanted to stay out of IR stuff, but I can’t help myself. You’re obviously someone’s who logical and willing to listen, so I think – “Why not?”

    I actually agree with a lot of your points, but here’s my experience.
    Most of the open, direct racism I get are from white guys. And 80 -85% are from White dudes dating AFs. There may be internalized racism in workplaces etc, but the direct racisms i.e. negative stereotyping, trying to exert their superiority, derogatory comments are mostly from this demography (the other 15% or so from your standard red-necks).

    The second racial group that I face direct discrimination most from? Asian girls from a certain demographic. What kind of racism do I face from them? Negative stereotyping, trying to exert their superiority, derogatory comments and guilt by association – “This Asian guy did that…therefore all Asian guys are like that.”

    And I’m lucky enough to grow up with a lot of family that are of mostly females, lucky to goto school with a lot of Asian girls and of course, date Asian girls. And I’ve yet to face any racism from Asian girls that do date Asian guys. If you’re an Asian guy growing up in the states, you will (or you should) see the difference.

    And that’s my first hand experience, no stories from friends, or friend’s friend’s friend. This is 100% true (but of course you’ll have to take my word for it).

    Have a look at some of the ‘white’ commentors like “Siegfried” and “Nickolai” – they are not the extremes, they are the types that a lot of us actually have to deal with in real life. And their claims for their basis for their negative stereotyping and derogatory comments? – “That’s what my Asian girlfriend tells me.”

    Should we take their word for it? Even if we do, I guess we just have to resign to the fact that an Asian girl is more than happy to date a racist. And we just have to deal with the obvious double standards as well, I guess?

    So is it the chicken or the egg first? I dunno.

  126. @ N: Your experiences are interesting.

    I have two theories about how that attitude might arise amongst WM who date AFs. (Aside from them just being assholes, which is a valid theory too.)

    I think one phenomenon which definitely occurs to some extent that when a white guy dates an Asian girl, he might assume an attitude that since he is now “down” with Asians, he doesn’t have to respect the normal sensitivities about Asians and their culture. He can now talk like he is an expert, or make the sort of racial in-jokes that Asians might make about themselves. (I’m reminded of the “Seinfeld” episode where Jerry’s dentist converts to Judaism and straight away decides he has a license to make fun of Jews.)

    Another thing: my partner, who is Indian from Malaysia and very progressive minded, has told me that she would struggle to find a partner amongst her own ethnicity, at least in Malaysia, because so many of them are stuck in traditional chauvinist mentalities. Now, I imagine that a lot of Asian-American women also make this sort of comment to their white boyfriends – Asian guys are too this or too that. And if the white boyfriend is a bit douchey, he might process that as “My partner chose me over these Asian guys because I am more _____ than them”, thus developing a sort of superiority complex, because he was able to get something that Asian guys can’t.

  127. “… because so many of them are stuck in traditional chauvinist mentalities …”

    Hmm… sounds familiar. Now where have I heard that? From whom I wonder?

  128. Eurasian Sens–

    You are making a mistake comaring apples to oranges in the last analogy. Asians raised in the West, that’s us and the group that we spoke about Asian Americans and Asian American women.

    You friend is from Malaysia, the men from her cohort group are from there as well. The AF-WM group that we are focusing on are from the US, Canada, etc. Among Asians, there is heavy heavy distinction and prejudice between those of 1st gen, 1.5 and 2-5 generation. Typically Fobbers receive some amount of discrim from 2n, 3d, 4th gen. As Am.

    So there, with the introduction of your mate who is from Asia, are three male cohorts here you must distinguish from to keep your argument sane and relevant. But you have conflated the two groups–Asian male from Asia and Asian American ( plus probably two groups within this group–As Am culturally Asian Am and Asian Am ( of passport but 1st generation immigrant ). You have conflated Asian Am with Asian male from Asia. Very different things and the argument for not dating one cannot be used towards Asian American males because we are for the most part just as observant and sensitive towards Western mores as white males.

    You seem to be find too many excuses to just “drop the subject” and let the status quo ride.

    Just my two cents

    The typical marrying out AF who is Asian Amer, 2nd to 5th gen, would not even given the time of day to a 1st gen. fobber. Our discussion is why they don’t even date Asian Am. men. You are taking the argument away from its focus in order to find a reason, post hoc ( is this correct) for their choices. You seem to do that alot.

  129. @Eurasian S

    Unless you happen to think that Asian guys jokes about having small dicks, Asian girls are too good for us and that Asian girls will always take a white guy over an asian guy… otherwise I don’t think phenomenon one applies.

    Or are we being too sensitive again?

    Not directly to you, but we get a lot of double standards at this place. If we keep quiet than we’re told that we’re too timid and weak and should grow some balls to stand up for ourselves. And when do speak out, we’re told that we’re being too sensitive and need to grow some balls (again!).

  130. @N:
    what I mean is that within an ethnic community (be it black, Asian, whatever), people talk about their own community in a way that might be critical or poking fun, but also comes from an insider, who generally has an affection for that community. When an outsider starts making these same comments, it comes out of a different context and can be offensive. (Imagine, say, that a white comedian was doing the same jokes about black people that Dave Chappelle does.) I’m not saying this is the same as your situation.
    @ Just Me:
    Maybe the analogy is not relevant and obviously As-Am men are different to Asian men in Asia. I was just putting it out there in case it had some resonance. And I think my comment has been misinterpreted, too – I’m not implying As-Am men are chauvanistic, because I personally have no idea about that. My example is more about how white men who date Asians are going to hear both the good and the bad in the Asian community from their Asian partner. But some of them are going to focus on the bad and use it to fuel their prejudices.

    I’m not saying the status quo is good. But aside from locking up one’s daughters and being an asshole, what’s to be done about it? Educate people, change the negative perception of Asian males, sure. But ultimately, people make their choice to be with someone, and I don’t think you or I have the right to tell any woman that she shouldn’t be with someone because of their race.

    @ John Doe:
    I don’t follow your allusion. But in this case it’s the difference between the Western way of treating women and an old-fashioned Indian way of treating women. She prefers the former and that’s her prerogative; personally I don’t blame her.

  131. @Eurasian and King:

    Haha! I guess I love your whiteness and I love King’s blackness and I hate everyone’s Asianness. I need to have a point system to keep all this racial prejudice in order!

    @JustMe:

    My personal description is almost the same as Eurasian Sensations. I’m not in university, and I’m 35. I tried to do what he did by getting a master’s degree, but they put me on a waiting list and then passed me over for some other more qualified people. Such are the breaks, I guess.

    I too would have agreed with you more when I was younger. Now that I’m older and more seasoned, I too see things are being much more complex. Part of my own training in complexity comes from my two children, who have taught me time and time again how there are different ways to see things.

    I think I may have just plagiarized Eurasian Sensation along the way. I hope it’s not because he’s part White. :)

    Here was part of my practical solution to the disparity with respect to individuals:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/05/asian-women-and-the-invisible-chain/

    Fail Hard on the individual level.

    But don’t put the onus on individuals who you don’t know. Every person is different.

    @crazy mm’er:

    I agree with everyone here but you. I think you need to rein in your anger. It’s tearing you apart.

  132. @Eurasian

    I’m very uncomfortable with your last sentence. I personally know a few Indians (from India) at work – the minorities tend to look out for each other, I’ve been to their homes, have dinners with them, they even invited me to their new year celebrations. All their hubbies are Indian and I certainly don’t see any reason to think they are treated badly – or whatever that ‘old fashion way of treating women’ that you’re trying to convey.

    The younger couple still behaves like love birds and I had great conversations with the other two couples. One pair are Pasis, the younger couple from Gujarat and the oldest pair from Southern India (I can’t remember which province) who are christians.

    They are really great people and I really don’t see how the way they treat their wives are any worse than the ‘western way’ (whatever that means).

  133. Chris,

    1. You wrote: “Look how you kiss ass to Eurasian who is half white, yet you lash out at the Asian guy.”
    My answer: I don’t care about race. The half-white dude was saying intelligent things; the Asian guy wasn’t.

    2. I accidentally hit the delete button and killed your post. Whoops. My bad. Did you save a copy? If you did, could you please post it again? We benefit oh so much from your wisdom.

  134. @Eurasian,

    I find there are multiple issues with what you wrote. At best what you write is superficial. Let me illustrate just a few:

    (1) “…I don’t think you or I have the right to tell any woman that she shouldn’t be with someone because of their race…”

    Straw man argument. I do not think anybody is saying that.

    What I read is that the out marriage gender disparity is 4-1, 6-1 (pick a number), and overwhelmingly to WM. This is taken to be a result of the white power structure not because of the progressive ideals of the white. We are talking about Americans of all shade here now.

    Based on the statistics, one would then say it is more likely than not that AFs in question seek out WM due to reasons beyond the usual love, etc. In other words, if one were to pick a random AF/WM couple and claim this coupling is due to the reasons beyond the usual, one would be more likely to be correct.

    Of course everyone understands we are talking statistics. Meaning a particular random coupling AF/WM might not be due to the majority trend of the sample.
    You and I could quibble whether 80%, 90%, 95.7% AF/WM involve “racist love” but nor you nor I have the numbers. It will require more research to get those.

    About Amy Chua or Michelle Malkin, can I make a general statement that is more likely to be correct than not? The answer is yes. Is it guaranteed to be correct? No because probabilities have to add up to 1. Just to be clear, I am not personally making any claim about either of these two. I am simply not interested in their life.

    (2) “… in this case it’s the difference between the Western way of treating women and an old-fashioned Indian way of treating women …”
    I also have a few Indian friends where the husband and wife share the burden of modern life. From a few sample, I would not make a very strong argument except in their case this gender equality has more to do with the forces of economy than adopting Western way. With both the spouses working, you are forced to share housework. Just make economic sense.

    You are confusing modernity with Western values. Its not like whites have a patent on technological innovation. Now my experience might not have anything in common with the Indian cultural experience but I tend to think there are certain universal human conditions.

    In my grandparents generation, the women did the cooking and cleaning and weaving beautiful cloths (yes), the men worked in the field, repaired fences , built houses. I am not sure the men and women would have traded places. Breaking the hard soil with a wooden plough is much much harder than acing a calculus exam.

    In my generation, the only “work” the kids (boys or girls) did was study. This change came about due to modern lifestyle not adaptation of Western way unless you claim all technological innovation have to be white.

    (3) ” …who is Indian from Malaysia and very progressive minded …”
    When I first came to US, I had this picture of a very progressive society. I find most (again in a statistical sense) people in US are religious conservative that also clouds their thinking on sex and politics. I found Japan, and even western Europe more progressive.

    Think of it this way. Gender inequality exists in the US, and its due to the WM in power. You can blame it on AM but you can’t take that seriously.

    As it happens, I also know (knew like 15 yrs back) an Indian-Malaysian. I would say this AM was as progressive as anybody else. So, a progressive (not necessarily Western) Indian-Malaysian is not unheard of. Not like a progressive Indian is Heavens gift to Earth.

    (4) In brief, I say most of the IR gender and race disparity has likely a lot to do with the white patriarchy. Modernity is not necessarily a Western (white) way, neither is progressive ideal. In fact majority in US (which implies majority white by deduction) are very conservative. Most here are talking about succeeding despite the white patriarchy and the privilege it bestows (or not).

    Question is what are you (not you as in particular but in a general sense) doing to fight the white patriarchy?

    It certainly is a privilege for a WM to get on a flight and pick a women from a poor country say Philippines, India, Indonesia, Thailand, what have you, despite complete language barrier. An AM from Burma without any English skills would not be able to pick up an average white women in the US. Most likely the said AM would not even be able to afford the plane ticket.

    My main objection is what you write is so superficial and trivial that it doesn’t add much. I agree with some of your trivial observations.

  135. I think that alot of the Asian women– most that are famous and especially those who have married out, have already surmised that, the struggle is too great for them, so then you can have take care of you.

    what struggle? ever since the “feminist movement” all the attention has been on AF who are “submissive and docile” – you can read this from any YT with AF wives.

    and along with Byron, I think it’s disingenuous to ad hominem against me being a sexless loser when you don’t know the first thing about me and how I’m getting along in life. I do look out for #1, as any sane person should – but that doesn’t mean I can’t vent in online discussions when the “sellouts” do nothing but to disparage and piss on Asian men all day.

    I think one phenomenon which definitely occurs to some extent that when a white guy dates an Asian girl, he might assume an attitude…Now, I imagine that a lot of Asian-American women also make this sort of comment to their white boyfriends

    you tell us to refrain from making generalizations and judgments, but yet you approve of (or at very least let slide) those WM assumptions and comments against AM?

    the two word phrase starts with a “double” and ends with “standards”

  136. I am going to present a different picture now, one of hope ( again I will track from the topic to return after I have made my point. )

    About white male patriarchy, in the US, I believe that it is both white and black male patriarchy. After Eddie Murphy and Spike Lee both complained about \ not enough black folk having media representation.\ Yet when Murphy shot \Dr. Doolittle at Ucla campus\ in his movie and all the movies set in S.F. there are only white and black Americans. Redux for Cornel West as well.

    For those stuck in the American reality, I urge you to see other realities, other worlds. America is gonna be hard to change, very very hard. Their realities of male and female relations have antecedents from Europe. This struggle is going to be 3 generations to change the \representation\ of Asian here.

    So instead of \Go West young man ( West Coast ), I say ‘Go south, South America.’ \ I will give you an example. Now when John F. Kennedy became Pres. it was heralded as a \cause celebre\ because he was Irish, Catholic and the grandson of immigrants. Yet, his grandfather, John \HoneyFitz\ came to America at the age of 5 or 15 but born in Ireland. Technically, he was a 2nd generation immigrant. As it was his parents decision to immigrate.

    So John F. K. was a fourth generation Irish Am president. Very Americanized at this point. Social change takes awhile here unless you have a very very large minority group such as African Americans.

    I want to point out that when we have only seen or known one possibility, we can sometimes get down on ourselves or the community, myself included. But there are other worlds, other realities. I will give you an example ( and again someone here might be speaking from experience).

    Jamil Mahuad and Abdallah Bucaram– who are they? Those are Lebanese names yet both were Presidents of Ecuador –Arabs and sons of immigrants–2nd generation!!!. Do you think we in the US could ever have that? 2nd generation Arab becoming President? But then that is only the tip of the iceberg, Alberto Fujimori– was Peru’s pres for 10 years, again 2nd gen Japanese Peruvian immigrant, Carlos Menem of Argentina again 2nd generation Arab who rose to become President. Fidel Castro was 2nd generation as well as rose to be dictator and Pres for life. Father was from Canary Islands with very very little education.

    How does this relate to IR. Simply that in other worlds and I mean to the South, the IR situation is opposite, it is the Asian Latinos who marry out and the Asian Latinas who try to stay within the group. However, the outmarriage IR rate is about equal. One of the points I am trying to make is that the situation in the US is not the only reality.

    If you feel a little worn down sometimes from what you see, hear and live here, my advice is to take a trip there and take a look. But you will need language skills.

    Recuperate tus huevos, anda alla a Latinoamerica por un viaje ( Get back your balls, take a trip down to S. America sometimes, this is Southern Cone Spanish which is a little different, el voceo ). All the accent marks are missing. Besides its all slang anyways.

  137. @ MMer:

    I’ve no idea where you get the idea that I approve of racial assumptions WM make about AM. I assume that we all agree those are shit so I don’t need to spell it out.

    @ N, John Doe & Just Me:

    Just a quick one since I’m busy the last few days and don’t have time to do justice to what you’ve written. Please do understand that sometimes it’s not easy to succinctly express what I wish to say without undue rambling, and thus the nuances don’t always come across.

    Regarding my comment about Indian males, don’t for an instant think that I believe that represents all of them. Let me express it more correctly: She has found it hard to find an eligible guy within her country and her ethnicity whose attitude and approach to women is compatible with how she personally would like to live her life. Western-raised men (whatever the ethnicity) are more likely to be compatible with her in that respect.

    (1) “…I don’t think you or I have the right to tell any woman that she shouldn’t be with someone because of their race…”

    Straw man argument. I do not think anybody is saying that.

    Fair enough, I actually clicked Post Comment too soon without reading over what I had written. It was meant to continue: “or call someone a bitch or a sellout because of who they have chosen as a mate.” And I’m sure you’ll agree, there is a little bit of that mentality floating around.

    Regarding this:
    “Based on the statistics, one would then say it is more likely than not that AFs in question seek out WM due to reasons beyond the usual love, etc. In other words, if one were to pick a random AF/WM couple and claim this coupling is due to the reasons beyond the usual, one would be more likely to be correct.”

    Personally I think such a view of the motivations of AF seems overly negative and simplistic. I agree that racial conditioning by the white patriarchy is a very real factor. But I’m wary of making this easy division between those who get into a relationship based on self-hate and those who do not. Even those women who have been conditioned to inordinately favour WM are not going to make their decision on race alone. Individual compatibility, opportunity (in that there are simply more WM to choose from) are generally more important.

    Are AW as a group so completely brainwashed and ignorant that 80% of them make arguably the most important decision of their life (choosing a mate) based primarily on internalised racism? If you really think they are such mindless creatures, I’m not sure why you bother with them.

    I think the decisions of AW constitute only one side of the story. In a multiethnic society, mixing is normal, inevitable and not an instrinsically bad thing, and most minorities are going to mix mostly into the most numerous group (whites), which is also the most culturally dominant. So why must the question be “Why are AW dating out?” instead of “Why aren’t AM dating out?”
    Obviously the answer to the latter question has a lot to do with racism and negative stereotypical perceptions of Asian men in the mainstream, and a Western culturally-specific concept of masculinity which might tend to favour whites over Asians. That’s something that we must challenge and look to change. But at the same time, as has been detailed on another post here, AM seem less likely to want to date outside their race. Why is that seen as the norm, and AW’s dating habits as being wrong?
    Asian women just seem like too easy a target here. And given that there is a pretty universal phenomenon in all cultures of trying to control the sexuality of the women of one’s own group, it’s hard not to see a bit of that mentality seeping into these kinds of discussions. For example, there is also resentment from black women about black men who date white women, but my impression is that it doesn’t seem to reach the same level of vitriol as what I see directed as Asian women at some Asian blogs. I figure part of that is the differing attitudes to sexual freedom where men are concerned.

  138. Eurasian Sens–

    Yeah but if you look at Asian males in South America, they outmarry at about 1.5 to 2x times that of Asian females in the same continent. It could be a recognition of society, your position in the said society, perceptions, power and the oft-repeated male patriarchy–power relations in each society. I don’t think it is just a lack of wanting to date outside one’s ethnic group for Asians in America.

    Identity is always a two way street–not just what you think of yourself but what others think of you–these play into identity construction. You are voicing the opinions of the status quo again as your “punto de partida”- your intellectual take-off point after giving lip service to the Asian Am ideas.

    Back to the idea of other realities, there are other worlds besides the US constructed system of capitalism, democracy and relations between the sexes. Economic power there in S. America holds alot more clout than in the US. But, the stereotypes for Asians there are the same, university educated, not wife beaters, kind, considerate, well-spoken, and generally that the family has some savings or properties that the sons and daughters can inherit. Yet how the societies view the same Asians and the amount of respect given to Asian males in US vs S. America is very very different.

    I am gonna have to wrap this up soon, I am using too much time on this stuff when I have real work to do.

    Just me and my two cents

  139. @Eurasian

    I guess you really doesn’t understand what exact we’re angry about.

    Let’s be brief.
    For Asian American girls growing up here.
    Every prince in the fairy tales they read about is white.
    Every hero, every protagonist they see in TV, movies, books is white.
    The ‘hot’ guys in every teenage magazine is white.
    99% of books that is published that features Asian girls ends up with a white guy.
    99% of ads/commercials that features Asian girls (think I-phone) have them with a white guy.

    There is an utter disrespect towards Asian American couples, the lack of positive protrayal of loving, attractive young Asian american couples is absolutely criminal. (That’s my biggest beef)

    Humans are easily influenced by media.
    You’re starting to get what we are getting at here?

    Should I even bother talking about about Asian males are protrayed in media here?

    Studies show that a 2nd Gen Asian American man will earn 8% less than a white guy with the same qualifications.
    Studies show that on average an Asian American man will have to earn 24K more than a white guy to have the same girl interested in us.
    You still think we’re fighting in a fair game?

    No to mention the amount of double standards we get from those girls (and their men) is absolutely ridiculous. Look up Esther Ku while you’re at it.

    If you’re willing to listen, man have I got stories to tell about the blatant double standards we gets from those girls. But my gut feeling is that you won’t even bother to care because you made up your mind way before this discussion.

    And our favourite – “But Hapa babies are cute!”
    And Asian babies aren less cute??????????????
    WTF?????

    Apart from those girls in my church group that I met daily, a handful of celebrities and any Asian girl that tries to shove double standards down my throat, I actually don’t care about Asian girls that date white.

    I just love the ones that date Asian guys hell a lot more.
    That despite all the positive protrayal of white guys and extremely negative protrayed of Asians that is rammed into their heads because of the media, they still manage to find us attractive, love us and see us as possible life-long companions.

  140. Studies also show that Asian American resumes get look at from 10-15% as much as if I were name Brad Livingston or Brad Levy

  141. @N:
    I think you may have read me wrong. The problem with internet discussions is that one only sees a small snapshot of what another person thinks, which means that we might make assumptions in order to fill the blanks.
    Thing is, I agree with everything you just posted. During this discussion I’ve assumed we are all aware of those things, thus I haven’t felt the need to acknowledge them. My sense is that you guys think I’m unaware of that. If you are interested, I wrote this a while back on the representation of Asians on Australian TV:
    http://eurasian-sensation.blogspot.com/2009/12/lack-of-asians-on-australian-tv-and-why.html

    Thanks to white-dominated society and media, I spent most of highschool thinking my non-white features were a curse, and seeing beauty only in white girls. I snapped out of that shit when I left high school, thank God.

    So in terms of all the racism and shit you listed that Asian men have to deal with, I’m in total agreement. What saddens me though is when any Asian women in a relationship with a white guy seems to be automatically considered suspect. This is the issue that prompted me to weigh into this post originally.

    Amy Chua has a white husband. Esther Ku presumably also has a white partner. Does it thus equate that Amy Chua has the same despicable attitude towards Asian men that Esther Ku does? No. Perhaps she does, but none of us know that; it’s just an assumption that’s being made, and thus they both get lumped into the same category, just as “Kimbapper” was, earlier in this thread (for having the temerity to suggest AM shouldn’t dictate to her who she dates, and that who she dates doesn’t affect how much she loves her Korean-ness).

    On one hand, there is justified anger at how systemic white racism plays out in relationships. And on the other hand, there is misogynistic bullshit. My gripe is that there is a point where the two things cross over, and the misogynistic bullshit seems to be infecting the righteous stuff. So discussions of anything can devolve into a mass of tirades against “sellout” Asian women. I’m not sure that helps the cause of Asian men at all.

  142. “ … So in terms of all the racism and shit you listed that Asian men have to deal with, I’m in total agreement. ”

    Umm … I do not think racism works in isolation like you suggest. Its not like people are racists against AM but race neutral against AF at the same time. What does happen is that racism and sexism come into play all together.

    For example, in case of AM, sexism+racism leads to negative stereotype on one hand, and better salary (work status) compared to similarly qualified females on the other hand. In the case of AF, sexism+racism leads to portrayal of hyper sexual but subservient being.

    I do not think I or jaehwan or N or Just me are calling AF all those names. Words hurt, and name calling doesn’t help. Here also you see how AM are stereotyped as angry and whining when we express our opinion. This is a myth that haters like to perpetuate.

    Regarding your reasoning about IR disparity you are coming up with explanations thats contrary to how statistics work. You do not start with saying a random variable could defy the trend, and then apply it to all random variable to arrive at the conclusion that the trend does not exist all. Thats just silly. Even kindergartners are aware of the hierarchy that we live in. It effects both minority boys and girls but differently due to sexism+racism.

    Past colonialism, anti-miscegenation laws, mistreatment of Asians does impact us today. Its like some whites complaining why poor urban blacks cant’t pull themselves up by themselves. This is a great country because of the equality and freedom that are in the constitution but everybody does not have the same privileges to enjoy them.

    As I mentioned I do benefit from the white patriarchy at workplace for being a male.

  143. @ John Doe:

    N was primarily talking about Asian men, which is why I said Asian men.

    Regarding your reasoning about IR disparity you are coming up with explanations thats contrary to how statistics work. You do not start with saying a random variable could defy the trend, and then apply it to all random variable to arrive at the conclusion that the trend does not exist all.

    Again, that’s not what I’m trying to say and my apologies if I didn’t make it clear enough. White patriarchy is a factor in the IR disparity, and a significant one. I just really dislike the assumption that not only is it the only factor, but the only reason an Asian woman dates a white guy, full stop.

    I do not think I or jaehwan or N or Just me are calling AF all those names.

    Didn’t imply that you did. You’ll see plenty of it earlier on in the thread if you look though (check some of the responses to Kimbapper, for example). To you, Jaehwan and Just Me, I would only say that I hope you remain aware of how misogyny has the tendency to impinge on these kinds of discussions. That actually helps perpetuate the whiny stereotype you mention.

  144. I was tired, still a bit sick and it was late last night.
    I’ve re-read some of your posts and I admit that I jumped to some conclusions so I apologize for that.
    But before we go on, for the record, I don’t name call. I don’t use the “w” or “s” word to describe any women, you just have to take my word for it. Like John Doe (fantastic screen name, wish I thought of that) said we are too easily labelled as angry and agressive just because we taking on the negative role in an IR debate.

    Now since you brought up “Kimbapper”, let’s put her post in context. While Bryan blog/article provided an IR angle, it was more a tongue in cheek in Chua not “Practizing what she preaches.” Subsequently IR wasn’t a huge factor in the discussions here, have a good read of the earlier posts if you have time.

    Then Nicolai Yezhov was the one that got IR debate going, making borderline racist statements made from stereotypes (and what his asian female friends tells him, of course) . Then Kimbapper came in and the first four words were: “OK. So Chua discussion aside.”

    She was never interested in the topic/discussion, she simply want to bait and have a good dig at us. This is confirmed by another post of hers on the I-phone post, but more on that later.

    Do I agree that Mt’s response was crude? Yes I do.
    But even if we had all talked to her nicely (which I think I did, though I did have a gentle dig back at her), would she had changed her view on anything? I severely doubt it, judging on her language used.

    I’ll let you made up your own mind on her stance in relation to the I-phone issue.
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/06/teaching-apple-to-really-think-different/

    I’ll tell a little story later on how I ‘wrecked’ the friendship between one of my super-nice, open minded friend and a girl in that demographic just to give you an example on the hypocrisy that we face from them in reality.

  145. Kimbapper, what the fuck is wrong you Asian women who REFUSE to date Asian men? I don’t care if Asian women date white men, but something is wrong if you make it a point to date ONLY white men. I’ve had relationships with white women, hispanic women, and black women–but NEVER with my own kind. God knows I’ve tried, and maybe it’s the area I live in. I don’t know, but I am sick and tired of Asian American women who just flat out refuse to have anything to do with their own.

  146. One thing that people haven’t brought up is that tiger parents, when unchecked, grow up to be even more demanding tiger grandparents.

    If you felt like crap when your mom criticized you for every little thing, she’ll do the same thing with your parenting skills once you have kids. And it’ll feel 10x worse. So the sooner you put your foot down and demand respect and acceptance from them, the better it will be for the next generation.

    I’m glad that my husband and I are on the same page about not letting our parents bully us into raising our son the way they want, and that we weren’t afraid to leverage visitation rights with their only grandchild to prove our point.

    On another note, I’m surprised no one mentioned that all this tiger-style parenting probably led to a high amount of IR disparity in the previous generations. I’m sure it’ll happen to Amy Chua’s daughters, since their mom is quick to attribute their strict parenting to being Chinese, that when they grow up, they won’t want to be with anyone remotely Chinese.

    I’ve seen it happen in my generation, both AFs and AMs. We don’t want a repeat of our childhood, so we won’t go for anyone who’ll remind us of it. With my husband, however, I found someone else who was equally traumatized by this style of parenting.

  147. @Bryan

    I know you’re a very optimistic guy that thinks that we can get on the same page as the girls that plays for the opposite team. Meanwhile, I’ll be thanking the heavens if they don’t try to ruin other girls who are interested in us.

    Here’s my little story: (Obviously, the names are fake, but the story is real)

    Annie, Bruce and I knows each other from the same group.
    Cindy is a girl and both Annie and I knew, but Bruce didn’t (now he does, and better than Annie and I combined!)

    Bruce is one of my best mates. In my view, he’s a pretty attractive/cute guy, very goofy, very open-minded, just a really likeable guy. The only problem with him is that he can be a bit too nice at times (from our not so lofty standards of course) and tries a bit hard to be everybody’s best friend. He WAS very happy to hang out with WM/AF couples and he considers the WM/AF couples in our church to be his friends.

    At that time, it’s been three months since his girlfriend of one and half years broke up with him. After a few weeks of drinking and celebrating (for us anyway, we always knew Bruce wasn’t “upwardly mobile” enough for that girl, though we were just fresh out of uni) and a few months of self-discovery, he was ready to brave the waters again.

    On the other side, Cindy is a pretty cute girl and just cool in general. I see a lot of similarities in those two, so for me it was fairly obvious they would be pretty good together. And to no one’s surprise, after organizing a few group activities and coffees, they began dating.

    It was only then that she realized that we both knew Annie and that Annie had promised to introduce guys to Cindy and girls to Bruce. Cindy thought it’ll be funny if Annie, without knowing they are dating, would introduce Bruce to her. I said it’ll never happen because Annie plays for the other team. Both Bruce and Cindy scolded me and I challenged them to an experiment – That they’ll keep their dating secret and see what type of guys and girls Annie would introduce them. They loved and enjoyed the secrecy in the beginning.

    But I think you guys know what direction this story is heading.

    Even though Cindy only dated Asian guys before, guess what type of guys Annie introduced to Cindy? White dudes of course. And according to Cindy, the best of the bunch of the 4 white guys that Annie had introduced to her looked like Jesse Eisenberg.

    “At least he wasn’t overweight or balding like the other ones,” I remembered laughing myself to tears when I heard this. And surprise, surprise, Annie didn’t introduce any girls to Bruce. She doesn’t know any girls that are single, apparently.

    So after two months and the fourth white dude, Cindy got frustrated and said, “Look Annie, I’m just not really in white guys. You know any single Asian guys?” Cindy usually is a lot more diaplomatic than that, but obviously she was a bit frustrated. And their next meeting? Annie got all her WM-loving buddies together and tried to convince Cindy what a ‘liberating experience’ it was to date white guys (okay, I made the liberating part up, but you guys get the idea) and that she should really consider the third white dude.

    Cindy had enough and said, “Look, I’ll be honest. N introduced Bruce to me and he seems like a nice guy…” But before she could finish, the entire started bad-mouthing Bruce – yep , the group of girls that Bruce considered as ‘friends’. And you should see Bruce’s face when Cindy told him all that.

    When nice guys blow up, they really blow up, trust me on that.
    Bruce pretended he didn’t hear anything from Cindy and seeked Annie’s advice on dating Cindy.

    Annie replied, “Sorry Bruce, but I don’t Cindy’s really into…well, asian guys right now.”
    Bruce questioned back, “But N said her ex was Asian.”
    Annie replied, “Well…that’s precisely why she’s not really looking for an asian guy. N didn’t know her as much as I do. So trust me, you’re just wasting your time with her.”

    Bruce brought Cindy to our next church group meeting.
    (The look on the girl’s faces were priceless).
    Bruce never spoke to Annie again (but he forgave the other girls, being the nice guy that he is).

  148. @N,

    There are Chinese people right? Because Chinese and the 4th generation Japanese Americans, I think those are the only two Asian groups that are so overwhelmingly “Europhilic.”

    N, you point won me over, it may never win over the two other guys but in any argument, in any case study, we know the background and history of the subject in question, this allows one to make future projections.

    Some of the logic that I have heard from this board would never cease to amaze me at taking liberalism too far. You give specific examples, someone responds that that cannot be true in every single case. Fine, it is merely a projection, or projected outcome– game theory applied.

    Just Me

  149. Last thing about East Asians, I think that in order to be Chinese, Korean or Japanese back in Asia, you have to be full blooded. Not in America though but if you read any of the Chinese confucian classics they point out that family line and purity are part of Confucianism–their POV of course was family line and the purity of class–if you are from the shogun class, that is who you marry, from the literati, that is who you should marry.

    What you see is, if she were so keen on Chineseness, you wouldn’t marry a non-Chinese white in order to preserve Chinese especially in a once upon a time supposedly Confucian dominated society with supposed Confucian values.

    So basically, that is the main point which supports an earlier post about her writing for a White audience, selling herself as the Asian native to the whites–translating this supposedly knowledge to the West, an Asian “Malinche.”

    Sources of Korean Tradition, Peter Lee, gives a very good review of Confucian texts and classic taken from China to teach Confucianism in Korea ( vol. 2). So even Chua knows that the 1. Chinese grandparents would favor a full blooded grandchild over mixed or hapa 2. it’s such a part of the past traditions East Asians do not recognize a hapa child as being Chi, Japa,or Kor so it makes no sense to have hapa children and say they are being raised to be Chinese or even in the Chinese way because in Asia, you can’t raise a non Chinese to be Chinese, 3. Even the daughters themselves prior to the book said they are Jewish and did not say they were Chinese.

    This audience and the product itself are a sham.

    N, can I ask you, what is your take on why so many Chinese in America seem to be ashamed to openly say they are Chinese or even openly let’s say hire other Asian or Chinese, when let’s face it, if being an Asian Am and your resume is being looked at at 15% of that of Joe Smith or Adam Levy, then each group to some extent does favor their own. N, what is it that makes Chinese for example different than Koreans?

    Just me,

  150. @Justme

    In terms of ethnics/gens –
    Annie is a second gen HKer. Bruce is a sec.gen with a HK father and a Korean mother. Cindy is a 1.5 gen southern chinese.

    I’m don’t care about the bloodline stuff and quite a few of my closest friends are from mixed Asians backgrounds – Apart from myself and a vietnamese couple, Most of my closest friends are dating Asian girls which are not from their original ethnic group anyway. I actually don’t even particularly care if the girls date out or not. I just can’t stand the hypocrisy and double standards they try to shove down our throats and then place all the blame on us.

    @John Doe
    Lol, I’ve stayed way too loyal to my church group then I should.
    Don’t worry man, I love my actual pack.

  151. Yah, I don’t care about bloodlines either. If a person is cool, a person is cool. To me, that focus on bloodlines is a bit outdated. I myself am really dark, so for all I know, I’ve got some SE Asian in me. I know lots of cool people who are half-Asian too and who live their Asian-ness.

    I think I’ve said this before, but personally most of my AF friends married White. Some say it’s just because, others are quite clear that it’s because they simply aren’t attracted to non-White men, some prefer White men but were also open to other men. I value that honesty, and I think it’s important for women to be able to express that. At the very least..and this is the part that people might feel uncomfortable with…it’s not going to change.

    As for N’s story–yes, I’ve seen people like that. These are the people who actively campaign to extend the AFCC Embargo, to further emasculate and attack Asian men. I don’t hang out with people like that. To me, that’s just straight out wrong. But I think you have to keep the line somewhat flexible. Some Asian women only like White guys, the same way some White women only like White guys. It is what it is. As long as they’re not actively attacking Asian guys (like Annie was…and yes, that’s what she was doing), you can still communicate with them.

    Hell, I know Asian women who wouldn’t date an Asian guy if he were the last guy on earth, but they agree that we need to promote Asian guys in order to bring more equality to the world. They pay for movies that show Asian men because that’s how they support us. We should accept these people into the conversation because their intentions are good. Once we get over the personal preferences thing, we’re on the same team.

  152. @ N: Interesting story, and a saddening one.
    I have no problem with someone ‘s racial dating choices, but to bad-mouth someone else’s option, and by extension a whole race of males, is low indeed.

    @ Just Me:
    We may just have to agree to disagree, but I still find your conflation of broad trends and Chua’s individual life path to be problematic.
    Here’s what bugs me about this conversation. I know that as Asian males, you guys hate all the assumptions and stereotypes that are placed upon you by white people. Yet when it comes to a Amy Chua, it feels like you have no problem with judging her based on your assumptions and stereotypes about Asian women who date white men.

    Regarding the daughter’s Jewishness – they are nonetheless fluent in Mandarin. And I would point out that there is a difference between Jewish identity and Chinese identity, in that Jewishness is foremost a religious identity, and a cultural one second. Given that Chua and her parents do not seem to have a strong religious tradition of their own, I don’t find it surprising at all that she hands the religious aspect of the kids upbringing over to her husband’s side.
    Regarding the kids statement “We are Jewish, but Mum’s Chinese” or whatever it was – what is the context of that? Are we really to believe that is the be-all and end-all of the kids’ identity, so neatly summed up in one sentence?

    “East Asians do not recognize a hapa child as being Chi, Japa,or Kor so it makes no sense to have hapa children and say they are being raised to be Chinese or even in the Chinese way because in Asia, you can’t raise a non Chinese to be Chinese”

    I guess the key phrase there is “in Asia”. If you settle in a country full of non-Chinese, in which intermarriage then becomes a distinct possiblity, is it not likely that these notions are going to start to shift?

    I know it probably seems like I have some interest in defending Amy Chua. I don’t. But I’m someone who has usually defied others’ attempts to pigeon-hole me into neat categorisations, and this gives me a certain level of empathy for others who are being judged on assumptions that may not be correct. For example, the story N tells above is very interesting, yet I’m not sure what, if anything, it has to do with Amy Chua. I don’t know what she has done to attack or emasculate Asian men, apart from [shock horror!] marry a white man.

  153. @bryan

    You’re a better man than I am.

    But I really haven’t met those ‘good’ women that plays for the other team. Then again, the people that I know are generally the first to second gen and the difference between the ones that plays on our team and those that doesn’t is quite obvious and quite extreme.

  154. I’m not sure “better” is the right word here. Naive is much closer. Delusional perhaps a tad better. An Asian woman who “wouldn’t date an Asian guy if he were the last guy on earth” doesn’t sound like someone who wants to promote equality to me. It sounds like a thoroughly shitty individual with a lot of issues. Anybody who wouldn’t date anybody else because of their race is a shitty individual. The situation just reaches new levels of absurdity when you have these Asian woman not wanting to date in the same race they themselves are in. If the key variable here is Asian and they themselves are Asian…well what does that tell you about their own opinion of themselves. What happens if they have sons that are phenotypically Asian? Do they think of them as ugly? Unsuitable? These people are sad and being around these kind of people would make me sad. In truth I think you do them a disservice being their “friend.” They need therapy not appeasement to their madness. If you really wanted to be their friend you’d not be their “friend” you’d be their wakeup call if that makes sense. IMHO of course.

  155. @Eurasian

    I think you missed one of my post earlier, the story is directly at your earlier reference to Kimbapper. I don’t want to repeat myself, but for me it was obvious that she wasn’t interested in discussing Amy Chua (hence her start of statement of “The Amy Chua issue aside”), all she wanted was a dig at the Asian guys.

    Her agenda, or her mentality at the very least, is reinforced by her post in the “Teaching apple to think differently” (i.e. The I-phone post) where she happily dismisses our concerns in the under-representation (i.e. none) of the AM and over representation of the WM/AF couples. Not only dismissive, but with obvious tone putting down Asian guys.

    To make it more ironic, just before she posted, there was a white guy posting a lot of BS and of course Kimbapper didn’t call that white guy out.

    If she had commented that “Nickolai, I date nothing but white guys, but I think you’re full of s…” instead of “The Amy Chua issue aside, you Asian guys…” She would have been treated a lot different, and in fact, may even change our perceptions. But instead, all she did was reinforcing my existing image based on my experiences.

    Hence the telling of my “Based on a true story” Annie, Bruce, Cindy story. (In hindsight I should have chosen Amy for our favourite Aunty – Amy Tan)

  156. If whites, male or female, only dated within their kind even in a cosmopolitan setting, one would call such individuals very close minded, perhaps even racist (closet kind) with or without any miscegenation law. Kind of like how some people might prefer to only hire their preferred race for jobs (though the job qualification doesn’t require it).

    Now, what to call Asians who prefer to date only whites? Rather how to categorize such people. Clearly they can be called racists if they preferred to date only Asians even when living in cosmopolitan setting with many wonderful people from all the races. But the usual definition of racists doesn’t quite apply here. Of course everyone makes their own choices. I or anybody have no right to complain unless it infringes on our own choices. Kind of like if all the whites in the neighborhood hanged out only among themselves not even acknowledging a Hello! from non-whites. Its their choice, doesn’t harm me but still it is closed minded and a bit racist.

  157. “If whites, male or female, only dated within their kind even in a cosmopolitan setting, one would call such individuals very close minded, perhaps even racist “

    @ John Doe

    I dunno… I live in LA, which is about as racially diverse a cosmopolitan city as it gets. And whereas I must admit that everybody is dating everybody here, there are still some Whites who date only Whites, and nobody seems to think of this as racist. There are Blacks who date only Blacks, and Asians who date only Asians. I admit this kind of exclusivity is becoming more rare, but it’s not seen as a hate crime.

    Now, racial employment preference is a bit different because it directly impacts the economic power, and therefore the social opportunity, of the groups being excluded. That impacts “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.” However it’s hard to argue that I couldn’t truly be free or happy, because I couldn’t date a White person.

  158. FatCatAttack,

    How can you judge an individual to be “shitty” based only on who they are attracted to? I don’t think people control that. Also, see my response to John Doe below.

    N,

    She’s probably young. Don’t forget, the education system with respect to Asian American issues is still very anti-Asian male, particularly anti-heterosexual Asian male (I have a funny story to tell about this later w/r to something someone said at the first Banana conference. Please remind me if I forget to share this.). Pin the Tail, if you know what I mean.

    @John Doe and FatCatAttack:

    To add to what King says, I’d say that there might be a difference between dating and hanging out. If a person refuses to associate with fat people, one could very accurately describe that person as “superficial.” But if a guy refuses to date fat women, is that the same thing?

    Most Asian guys suffer from the Invisible Chain:
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/05/asian-women-and-the-invisible-chain/

    They don’t shop outside the community store. Does this mean they’re “racist?”

  159. @King,

    ” …it’s not seen as a hate crime. …”

    Hate crime? Thats a new one. Wouldn’t you call it closed minded?

    Wouldn’t you call it closed minded if in LA despite the diversity, people still preferred to make friends and date only within their group? And this based solely on their *race*. Now, what if a particular group only wanted to date someone from a different group that is based on race but not their own.

    About selection of job candidate. Lets say I have heard people talk about how a particular candidate will fit in better with the local culture, whatever that may imply.
    Or say your business clients would be more happy to interact with a certain kind of employee. I agree it wasn’t the best example.

    My other example of whites (can be any other group and again not perfect example) exclusively mingling, say in LA, with only their kind. Its their choice and it is *not* a hate crime. But would’t you call this self selection guided by mostly race consideration?

    Umm … did I say something about being unhappy because of *not* dating a white person? Nope I don’t think I said that. Never was an issue to me.

    And just to be clear, I did mention that I or anybody else do not get to call who makes friends with whom. So its not really about legality or any other such thing based on the constitution. Hey if someone wants to hang out with their former KKK buddies, go right ahead.

  160. Wouldn’t you call it closed minded?

    Yes, I suppose that it is closed minded, to some extent, but you have to take into account the laws of social inertia—it takes time to turn the Titanic around. If people are used to seeing, socializing with, and dating people who look like they do, we can’t expect EVERYONE to instantly adjust to the new reality of a multicultural environment.

    There are always a certain percentage of people who adjust very quickly, then there are others who follow suit only when it becomes more popular and acceptable. For some it may take generations to change. But in all cases, the Titanic is turning, change is happening, but just at differing speeds for different people. I’m not prepared to say that this is always “racism.”

    EMPLOYMENT: Again, a different argument because it directly effects people’s power in society and their access to opportunity. But even things like fair employment practices don’t happen instantly – they are just seen as more urgent (and therefore more actionable) than revising dating preferences.

    Saying “A Chinese guy won’t fit in here because of his Chinaness” is a different affair than saying, “I’m only attracted to people of my own ethnicity.”

    Again, I agree that it’s kind of closed-minded, but not flagrantly racist.

  161. @ N:
    you may be correct about Kimbapper, it’s hard to tell what someone is really about from a few comments on a blog. I guess what struck me was the ugliness of some of the responses to her.

  162. \Hell, I know Asian women who wouldn’t date an Asian guy if he were the last guy on earth, but they agree that we need to promote Asian guys in order to bring more equality to the world.\

    I have to laugh at how pathetic this sounds. I’m not sure who is trolling who here but the net sure caught a couple of posters. I even ran it by MY GIRLFRIEND and she loled too.

    Back to Chua- I think she’s brilliant even though I’d never support her by buying her book. She’s probably selling a ton of them.

  163. @King,
    Glad that we got done with hate crime; life, liberty and happiness; and of course sad (angry?) AM not getting date with whites, male or female. Yup the last one had to be included by you and Eurasian (and who else?) when discussing AM.

    “…but not flagrantly racist…”
    What is your definition of racism in LA? As I understand, hiring or not based on race is racist not because it restricts your economic power but because it is a decision based on race. You are arguing about something else that was not even in the discussion. Again, the employment example was presented as an example of racism, not an example of dating or economic power. I can elaborate more but I think you can come to your own conclusion whether that example fits the definition of racism or not in LA.

    How about these examples? In my line of work, asians are mostly categorized as overachievers. Just the other day a supervisor (lets say) joked in front of a room full of audience that something couldn’t be completed because there are only so many asians (good workers) to go around. Does it impact me? Probably, and I can explain the negative effects of seemingly positive compliments but I do not want you to take the discussion elsewhere.

    Or perhaps you consider the following to be racist or not: I once got into a shouting match with a bunch of black guys over some comments that seemed offensive to me. Okay I don’t deal with this often due to the kind of work I do, and where it takes me.

    So if people make dating decisions based on race considerations in a way to exclude people from their own race, it is … I am lost for words here how to categorize it… We are talking about a large group of people not one or two isolated cases. This is a very different kind of titanic to use King’s word.

    @Eurasian, @King, I am not sure what your experience with racism is. I do not think you can isolate racism against AM from racism against AW. It impacts men and women differently because of sexism. We do not live in a post-race, post-gender society.

    @King, I can write my views about how asian IR issues can impact asian american identity, community cohesion , political voice, and economic power, and “pursuit of happiness”. But that’s for another time.

  164. Pingback: Chinese vs. Koreans, Mainstream vs. Minority | bigWOWO

  165. “@King,
    Glad that we got done with hate crime; life, liberty and happiness; and of course sad (angry?) AM not getting date with whites, male or female. Yup the last one had to be included by you and Eurasian (and who else?) when discussing AM.”

    Take it easy John Doe, nobody said anything about AMs *specifically* not getting dates with White people. Why would you assume that I only meant that? Naturally, the same logic applies to any minority trying to get with the Majority.

    “What is your definition of racism in LA? As I understand, hiring or not based on race is racist not because it restricts your economic power but because it is a decision based on race.”

    Words have different levels of meaning and connotation. You’ll notice in my post that when I used the word racism the first time, I put it in quotes. In the second instance where I used the word I said it was not “flagrant” racism. The reasons for this was in recognition that racism can mean different things when used in different contexts. It’s like the word “discrimination”. You might say that a wine sommelier has a very discriminating palette, but if you say that the policies of a certain agency are discriminatory, nobody thinks that you simply mean that the agency can tell the difference between two things. That is what connotation is.

    I had assumed that you could tell, by my usage, that I meant “racism” as it is most often applied socially, not scientifically (ie anything dealing with separate races).

  166. @King,

    Yes, I missed your quotes.

    Though what I was discussing doesn’t fit with the usual racism I had experienced. Similar to LA … I also grew up in a very religiously, culturally, ethnically, racially diverse place. People usually (not always) marry within their own group. It is accepted as the norm though people would admit readily that it is racist with or without quotes.

    One gender choosing to data, marry opposite gender of only a particular group that is not their own is a new one to me. It is free will but a choice thats clearly guided by race considerations. IMO.

  167. @Eurasian

    Let’s open the worms again about Kimbapper again. When you commented about “ugliness of some of the responses to her”, I would have thought that most of us (AA male commentators) were using offensive language to her, so I re-read the comments in that section and these are the list of the people that reacted to her comment:

    jaehwan (Bryan)
    Bobby
    Leon
    Mt
    My two cents
    AlphaAzN
    And myself.

    Out of the comments of seven people, Mt’s comments were the only one that I could see as ‘ugly’. While My Two cents’s comments even criticized Mt’s comments.

    So there’s 86% of us who were not offensive to her, but you called us out anyway – I guess it’s the same guilt by association thing that we seem to face everyday.

  168. @ N:
    Let it go, bro. I can’t even remember this stuff now. But let me just say something about interpretation:

    “ugliness of some of the responses to her”, I would have thought that most of us

    I say “some”, you hear “most”. I say “responses”, you hear “us”. Those are not the same things.
    If it’s not about you, don’t make it about you.

    Anyway, if I can remember back that far, my example of the response to Kimbapper was to illustrate my main point – that an Asian woman who dates a white man has all kinds of other things assumed about her character. You might even term it “guilt by association”. Jaehwan’s guilty of it in the original post, IMO.

  169. @Eurasian

    Lol, I don’t think we’re ever going to be on the same page. I’m still fairly convinced that you’ve made up your mind.

    We don’t just wake up one day to reach that conclusion, it’s what builds up everyday from our childhood, to our teens, to college that creates that idea in our heads.

    If you’re happy about your girlfriend’s verdict that majority of males of her ethnicity in Malaysia is of the ‘old fashioned way of treating women” and thus is incompatible with her, I really can’t see why you can’t let us make the same degree of assumptions towards Chua. (As Ivy Leaguers tends to be the extreme in that area – that’s probably somewhere that you’re not aware of at all).

  170. Eurasian,

    “Anyway, if I can remember back that far, my example of the response to Kimbapper was to illustrate my main point – that an Asian woman who dates a white man has all kinds of other things assumed about her character. You might even term it “guilt by association”. Jaehwan’s guilty of it in the original post, IMO.”

    You raise a valid point, but let me defend myself a bi.! First, I was being somewhat tongue in cheek with this post, but even if I weren’t, I think it’s a good question!

    Think about environmentalism. Danny Seo wears leather, Al Gore owns two homes, and David Owen lives away from the metropolis. All three do things that aren’t exactly super-idealistic-environmental, although all in all, they still could be considered environmentalists.

    Now what if every environmentalist made the exact same decision which seemed to contradict his or her position? What if every environmentalist, say, owned two homes. Or what if every environmentalist, while living in a cramped, one room, space-saving small carbon footprint room, drove a Humvee? People would be saying, “Oh no. Another one of those environmentalists with their big stinking Humvees. Why do they always drive Humvees???”

    It’s the exact same thing in this situation. “Oh no, another woman from the AFCC talking about how superior Chinese culture is.”

    (And yes, the article title says that Chinese mothers are superior. All versions we’ve heard say that she had final approval over that.)

    It’s possible to be a great environmentalist who owns two homes or drives an SUV, but I also think it’s perfectly logical to question these choices, especially when it happens over and over and over again. It’s not an attack on anyone’s individual character, just a perfectly rational question about a form of inequality that seems to happen again and again. And since a study has quantified this IR inequality to be equal to $24,000, and since I don’t know of a single woman making these claims who is not married to a White guy–I think people would be crazy not to question it!

  171. @N,
    I would say let it not get too personal. IMO of course :)

    @Eurasian,
    Statistic is a well respected discipline. One can make general statements about population (knowing well that individuals might beat the trend). Its a no brainer. However, to start from every individual can differ one does not argue that there is no trend. That is just not scientific.

  172. iow, if you meet 5 kimbapper type AFs in a row, whose to say that the 6th one will be any different?

  173. @ N:
    Lol, I don’t think we’re ever going to be on the same page. I’m still fairly convinced that you’ve made up your mind.
    Right back atcha, buddy. ;)

    If you’re happy about your girlfriend’s verdict that majority of males of her ethnicity in Malaysia is of the ‘old fashioned way of treating women” and thus is incompatible with her, I really can’t see why you can’t let us make the same degree of assumptions towards Chua.
    I get your point. But I would say that there’s a difference between the two things. The first is speaking in generalities – obviously there are Malaysian-Indian guys who don’t fit that, but they are harder to find than those that do, at least in my GF’s experience. I happen to agree with her, based on what I’ve seen; yet on an individual basis, I would still give someone the benefit of the doubt until they display otherwise.

    Regarding Chua, my gripe is that you wish to take the general trend, and apply that to one particular individual who you do not know.

    It’s one thing to say “A lot of Asian women who date/marry white men have negative attitudes towards Asian men, and are overly influenced by white brainwashing.”

    It’s an entirely different thing to say “Amy Chua married a white man, therefore she has negative attitudes towards Asian men, and is overly influenced by white brainwashing.”

    See the difference?

    The same as the logic of saying “A lot of Asian men are nerdy… X is Asian, so X must be nerdy too… even though I don’t actually know X.”

    And you’re right, I don’t know about the dating habits of Ivy League people. And like most others here, I don’t know what goes through any given Asian woman’s mind when she decides to date any given white guy, either.

  174. @ jaehwan:
    That’s an interesting way of putting it. And I’m aware that the whole IRR angle was only one of a number of points you raised, in a relatively nuanced way, but its also the one that gets people polarised and fired up the most I guess. The phenomenon you speak of is worth a discussion, for sure, and hopefully a civilized one. And there’s a whole ‘nother thread waiting to happen, debating whether one can truly value one’s own culture while picking a mate from a different culture.

    (And yes, the article title says that Chinese mothers are superior. All versions we’ve heard say that she had final approval over that.)
    She says otherwise here (http://www.yaledailynews.com/news/2011/jan/18/qa-yale-law-professor-amy-chua/). But who’s to say what’s true in all this?

  175. @Eurasian

    Lol, so when did I say that about Chua anywhere?
    I actually don’t have any problems with Chua.

    Happy to admit that my view towards Ivy Leagues Academia are skewed because of past negative experiences. Every tutor/lecturer I had during Uni that graduated from an Ivy League school is either dating or married to a white guy – 6 out of 6. Over to you, happy to be proved wrong.

    If I start seeing evidence that the girls that plays on the other team are unlike Kimbapper and say for example, actually criticises the I-phone ads, I’m very willing to start changing my preceptions. All I need is convincing, I can be changed, but I need to see strong evidence. I was a wide-eyed guillible kid not long ago.

  176. I don’t think the op is right in some of his/her points on Chua. What is with the constant references to Chua’s choice of mate?

    That is not a relevant issue to why she is raising her kids her way.

    Chu’s own family background is probably the most likely reason she is raising her kids strictly.

    The reason for her choice of a caucasian mate is pretty simple. Caucasian males, especially the ones presiding in the lone super power state, are the most sought after male from women all over. That’s pretty much a well-know fact.

    How she feels about the asian culture is not in direct contradiction to her desired choice in mates. The two are separate and has little connection between each other.

  177. Eurasian,

    Thanks!

    I think it’s totally possible to value your culture while picking a mate from a different culture! I don’t know if this is available in Australia, but if it is, check out Hisaye Yamamoto. I just blogged about her here. She married out, but you can tell from her writing that she’s got lots of love for her people.

    Also, if you’re interested in the whole IR thing and IR attraction, there’s this absolutely AWESOME book by David Mura called Where the Body Meets Memory. He married White, and he has a whole discussion about his obsession with White girls and porn and why he thinks Japanese Americans particularly like to date out.
    http://www.amazon.com/Where-Body-Meets-Memory-Sexuality/dp/038547184X

    In our discussion, I think context is what makes it significant. One guy or gal dating out means nothing–much the same way one environmentalist driving a Hummer isn’t going to bump up the average temperature. But when it’s everyone…it makes an impact. :)

    Theo:
    “The reason for her choice of a caucasian mate is pretty simple. Caucasian males, especially the ones presiding in the lone super power state, are the most sought after male from women all over. That’s pretty much a well-know fact.”

    I think it’s a well-accepted assumption, and I think it’s something that the media like to tell us, but it’s actually not a fact. Check out John Tierney’s blog, or check out this piece by Steve Penner. In this country, at least, white men are the most sought after only among White women and Asian women.

    “How she feels about the asian culture is not in direct contradiction to her desired choice in mates. The two are separate and has little connection between each other.”

    I don’t know if I’d agree. I mean, don’t you usually look for someone who shares your values? And if you care so much about Asian values that you’re willing to write a book about them, then wouldn’t that be significant?

  178. @N

    N,

    I have to agree with you here. 6 out of 6, how about try 300 Asian Am women out of 400 from the Ivies are married white. The part that gets me is that these are the exact same people who always come back and “represent” the community.

    I read some of the logic here and it is so biased towards individual choice, it is ludicrous. As some point, once someone’s 6 out of 6 or 12 out of 12, you make a rationalization, holding that environmental factors are teh same. That is what we are doing here, being judgemental of course but also making a rationalization.

    To go around with head on chin ( Rodin’s thinker pose ) and continue to say nothing, but yet continuing the discussion, that is quite a feat.
    Let’s face it, some of us have to own up to who we are. It’s not a problem, but if you are mixed race, you often have viewpoints that mirror that of your father ( male to male is my only point here ).

    Some of the discussion here leads only to more circling the wagon, once the variables are consistent–American, Ivy educated or univerisity educated, Asian middle class, growing up in mainstream America, other factors, such as very competitive, parents Assimilated first generation, growing up in enviroment where males of your ethnicity are seen socially as negatively impacted or to induce a negative impact on your earning potentials, social mobility.

    You wouldn’t believe it but so many variables are consistent when we talk about Asian Americans whether male or female. Of course, it does not hold true in every case, but in the case of Chua, it does hold true.

    Some of these variables and factors are consistent with those people such as Phoebe Eng, many of high risers ( Asian Am profs–male or female ) in American academia. At some point, you have to make a choice, a statement, a rationalization. To not do so, is just going around and around in circles saying nothing definitive.

    It is the epitome of being the emasculated Asian male, albeit emasculated academic Asian Am male.

    My two cents

  179. Hi jaehwan,

    Thanks for listening to my rants and replying as well!

    “I think it’s a well-accepted assumption, and I think it’s something that the media like to tell us, but it’s actually not a fact. Check out John Tierney’s blog, or check out this piece by Steve Penner. In this country, at least, white men are the most sought after only among White women and Asian women.”

    It might not be a fact, but statistically, white male is pretty much the alpha dogs in this country when it comes to mate selection. I mean I will agree that excellent candidates can be found in all ethnicity, but if there’s a top ten list….

    “I don’t know if I’d agree. I mean, don’t you usually look for someone who shares your values? And if you care so much about Asian values that you’re willing to write a book about them, then wouldn’t that be significant?”

    The problem with your scenario is you’re assuming there’s only one cultural influence residing in the minds of asian-american women. Truth is, most asian americans have at least 2 cultural backgrounds. And these backgrounds mix and clash and influences their daily decisions. They may pick and choose which part of each culture they wish to keep when it comes to food selections, travel destinations, activities to participate in and even circle of friends they feel most comfortable with.

    That is why you see asian women preferring white men over their asian country men. Because these women can relate to the culture and the backgrounds of white men. After all, hollywood pretty much dictates the ebb and flow of the world’s pop culture, and what is hollywood if not the byproduct of jewish white male’s need to display the beauty of their feathers?

  180. @N:
    Lol, so when did I say that about Chua anywhere?
    I actually don’t have any problems with Chua.

    My apologies if I ascribed someone else’s comments/opinions to you. I’m sure you appreciate that in a long thread like this with a number of intertwining issues and several people of similar opinion to you that I’m conversing with, it’s likely to happen occasionally.

  181. @ jaehwan:

    I don’t know if I’d agree. I mean, don’t you usually look for someone who shares your values? And if you care so much about Asian values that you’re willing to write a book about them, then wouldn’t that be significant?

    I’m not so sure about this. We don’t know how much Chua prioritises “Asian values” (whatever they are) as an umbrella term. Chua wrote a book about Asian parenting values, but one that was informed by her experience as a parent of 18 years or whatever. Step back to whenever she chose to go out with her partner, and then later to marry him… how much of that decision is going to be informed by his views on parenting?

    Ultimately, I think we foremost want someone who we see as attractive, a good catch, who makes us feel special, and who seems to have compatible goals in life. Would Chua in her 20s be thinking much about parenting? I doubt it. Most likely it became an issue of such interest of her once they stared having kids.

    Whatever the reason she decided to accept this guy as her life partner, I’d wager the parenting issue was relatively insignificant at the time.

  182. I get your point. But I would say that there’s a difference between the two things. The first is speaking in generalities – obviously there are Malaysian-Indian guys who don’t fit that, but they are harder to find than those that do, at least in my GF’s experience. I happen to agree with her, based on what I’ve seen; yet on an individual basis, I would still give someone the benefit of the doubt until they display otherwise.

    Regarding Chua, my gripe is that you wish to take the general trend, and apply that to one particular individual who you do not know.

    It’s one thing to say “A lot of Asian women who date/marry white men have negative attitudes towards Asian men, and are overly influenced by white brainwashing.”

    It’s an entirely different thing to say “Amy Chua married a white man, therefore she has negative attitudes towards Asian men, and is overly influenced by white brainwashing.”

    See the difference?

    The same as the logic of saying “A lot of Asian men are nerdy… X is Asian, so X must be nerdy too… even though I don’t actually know X.”

    was there ever a link posted here to logical debate fallacies and basic tenets of constructing logical arguments?

    I realize that the US and probably Australia’s education systems are pretty poor, but that’s no excuse for bad logical debates.

    what the “eurasian” wrote above is talking about inductive reasoning of his GF and the deductive reasoning of Amy Chua.

    for the record, you can find that in strict logical form, inductive reasoning is considered the weaker construction.

    what the eurasian could do is question the validity of the premises of the deduction about Amy Chua’s personality. there are certain assumptions made about her background from what’s gleaned in the media that leads to deductions about her personality and thought processes that’s on shaky foundations. however, the conclusion drawn from those premises are not in doubt.

    whereas the Malay-Indian argument is purely at an inductive level and dubious when subjected to rigorous logical constructs.

    folks should just read up on logical arguments and fallacies before it gets to this length.

    i’m normally impatient and don’t have time to go through all the basic premises of “critical thinking 101″ which folks should have taken their freshman year of college.

  183. The problem with your scenario is you’re assuming there’s only one cultural influence residing in the minds of asian-american women. Truth is, most asian americans have at least 2 cultural backgrounds. And these backgrounds mix and clash and influences their daily decisions.

    so where’s the AM in this assessment? or like most of haolewood, you’re also stereotype AM as the fobby accented Engrish speakers while the AF speak standard dialect?

    whatever conclusions you make about AF in the US, the same has to be for AM – but it’s always conveniently neglected in the AF/WM IR disparity.

  184. @ crazy:

    Perhaps it is the poor standard of Australian education, but I have no idea what you just said. Maybe you could express it in layman’s terms for simple folk like me?

  185. @Theo

    An asian american girl said to me three weeks ago.

    “Mixed offsprings are more beautiful than Asian Off-springs.”
    Do you agree or condemn this statement?

  186. “Mixed offsprings are more beautiful than Asian Off-springs.”

    Really … hmm … you meet interesting people. Somebody hand me some bleach and some freckle maker (or do they come standard?).

  187. @John Doe

    Lol, When you go to 2 Asian church groups, you meet a range of strange people. And once upon a time (though happily to admit that was quite a few years ago), I did give people the benefit of the doubt.

    As the chinese saying goes: “When you travel through the mountains all the time, you’re gonna see quite a few tigers.”

  188. “Mixed offsprings are more beautiful than Asian Off-springs.”

    I’ve heard this a lot as well. It’s rubbish, although I admit it does stoke my ego a little.
    I think people are confusing beauty with “interestingness” or novelty. Plenty of mixed people are not good looking, but they might still be relatively interesting to look at just because they are a bit of one thing and another thing.

    I’ll also admit that I have quite a thing for mixed people (not just white/Asian but all kinds of mixes), but that’s me. Attractiveness is highly subjective and strongly socially constructed.

  189. “…Attractiveness is highly subjective and strongly socially constructed…”

    I don’t think the issue is with the subjectivity of attractiveness. It is with the ugliness of the statement against a minority group. Some statements are just too racist.

    “…a thing for mixed people …”
    As for mixed people, lot (probably most) of Asians already are if you look at history carefully. African-Americans and Hispanics here are also mixed to varying degree. Its too wide a category to be useful unless you have a very specific “mixed” group in mind.

  190. the very notion of “mixed” people assumes that here’s some sort of definitive racial category to which people belong.

    strictly in scientific terms, there’s no absolute “race” that people belong to – only human clines.

    and FYI for Jaewhan, even Obama called himself a “mutt” so you and the Eurasian here should considered it a compliment that I used the term for him.

    as far logical reasoning and online debates, do your own homework and read up on the logical construction of arguments and fallacies.

  191. Eurasian:

    “Whatever the reason she decided to accept this guy as her life partner, I’d wager the parenting issue was relatively insignificant at the time.”

    I don’t know. I think women in general–in general, not in all cases–think longer term than guys do, especially when it comes to children. You could be right though. It depends on the individual.

  192. I am offended by Amy Chua as she was made iconic by the media.
    Many people will look at her and take it that she is representing “Chinese” or “Asian”.

    She is not anything more than a front page puppet, posing as heroine who is status seeking, and worshipping the west in every aspect.

    And to know that Asians who grew up in western countries will look upon her as a means to further reject their own cultural heritage.

    Amy Chua is Amy Chua, she her own breed.
    She is NOT Asian, she only in the skin.

    This comment:
    “Mixed offsprings are more beautiful than Asian Off-springs.”

    This is a racist myth and the only reaosn peopel have heard of it is because it is propagandize. There is no gurantee someone is physically beautiful because they are mixed.

  193. As for mixed people, lot (probably most) of Asians already are if you look at history carefully. African-Americans and Hispanics here are also mixed to varying degree. Its too wide a category to be useful unless you have a very specific “mixed” group in mind.

    Remember, whenever Asians refer to ‘mixed’, white must be factored into the equation.

    And I don’t think Amy Chua is Chinese. I don’t give a crap what she considers herself. She’s an opportunist Asian. She’s only Chinese as far as it helps her sell books.

  194. @Eurasian

    I was hoping Theo would come back and answer but I guess not.
    In the original statement that the girl made to me actually used was “We all know that that Asian kids will always be uglier than mixed ones.” I rejiggled the sentence to hopefully get some form of discussion from Theo.

    I’m not sure that you can fully understand, but that statement stings and hurt like hell. With ten other heads nodding and none of the other girls speaking out, are we (me and the other Asian guys there at the table) suppose to merrily accept this rubbish, (in our eyes) racist statement that they see as fact? That we have to answer with a smile, “Yes, there’s a more than likely chance that I’ll marry an asian girl so my children is always be ‘uglier’ than your kid because you’re ‘more progressive’ so you’re dating and marrying white”?

    Yes, she also thinks that WM/AF relationships are ‘more progressive’ and she also used the word ‘primitive’ to describe the fact that Asian guys tend to like Asian girls – and that’s a view that is again, shared by many of her peers.

    I seriously considering giving on a church group that I had been attending for close to 20 years of my life. I’m actually not overly religious, but I have fond memories grewing up in that place. Arriving here when I was 5, that was a place which helped my transition a lot and where I met some of my closest friends.

  195. @ Leon:
    And I don’t think Amy Chua is Chinese. I don’t give a crap what she considers herself. She’s an opportunist Asian. She’s only Chinese as far as it helps her sell books.

    On what basis is she not Chinese?

    @ N:
    what to say? Stupid is as stupid does. The people you describe hate themselves and can’t even see it.

  196. I hate to say this but has anyone ever thought that Chua has breast implants?

    I think that that also helps solidify the fact that she is a fake sell out just like Phoebe Eng ( Warrior Lessons–just open the warrior–never mind, for mature audiences, the word rhymes with “eyes”) Shroff

  197. “Mixed offsprings are more beautiful than Asian Off-springs.”

    This statement is contradicted by the very Rice Chasers whom these women seek to date. Those guys are specifically enamored with the undiluted “Asian look” and seek it out as a superior point of beauty. Creepy Rice Chasers just love Asian babies… right Siegfried?

  198. She is giving a free reading at Politics and Prose on Connecticut Avenue in washington DC, tomorrow night (Friday 18th) @ 7 pm.
    If you are in the area, since readers here are from all over, do stop on over.

  199. Yeah, I’m in the DC area and have no interest whatsover in feeding and extending her 15 minutes of calculated, opportunistic fame….why won’t she just fade away already?

    but P & P is a good bookstore, though.

  200. Someone above was trying to refute the notion that many asian females have self-hate…how could so many AFs be so ‘stupid’ as to seriously base one of the most important decisions in their life on racial stereotypes…that white men are more ‘handsome’ etc.

    To which I’d say….um, perhaps you don’t get that people are, for the most part, very gullible. People make ‘stupid’ decisions about who to date and marry all the time. Men marry women because they are ‘attractive’. Women marry men who have money. People get married out of desperation…because they haven’t met anybody themsevles even though all their friends are married, so they eventually settle on someone. If people made such good decisions about who to marry we wouldn’t have the divorcre rate that we do.

    Asian women are no different in that respect. They’ve been taught that white american men are the ultimate coup. How many asian men do you see on american TV as romantic leads or love interests? Now how many asian WOMEN do you see on TV with love interests….and always NON-asian love interests at that? I’ve noticed this very clear trend for some reason, in medical shows like ER, Private Practice, Grey’s Anatomy. Anytime an asian woman is featured in the episodes, her husband is NON-Asian. Pure coincidence? Or some type of actual conspiracy against the asian male, by the asiaphile network heads?

    Many asian women totally have their heads in the sand, about how much self hate they actually possess. Hapa babies are cuter, white men are (all) ‘so handsome’, and yellow fever is rampant (yet interestingly, the women who bemoan yellow fever the most are almost always dating NON-asian men, but yet fail to see the other side of the coin: WHITE FEVER. Ya gotta admit it’s a very clever ploy. By planting the idea of yellow fever in everyone’s minds, no one will think to question HER, and HER dating motives/patterns. I guess we are supposed to think these asian women are just the totally helpless victims of these asiaphiles. )

    One time I was walking down the street with an AF/WM couple and as we passed yet another such couple, the AF I was with mumbled ‘white wolf’. When I asked her why she said that, she said she was sick of white men objectifying asian women. I was stupefied. But it just showed to me how utterly clueless she was, and how unprepared and unwilling she was to examine herself, and how SHE came to be with a WHITE man.

  201. I got half way through this book and am through with it. I felt like throwing up thinking of this darling little girls being tormented like this. I can’t imagine how her husband stood by and watched this without having her committed or divorcing her and demanding custody. Hopefully, we should learn from our parents of what NOT to do and then don’t do it. Chua did not learn this lesson at her girls’ expense.

  202. Pingback: Asian Tiger Parenting vs. Jewish Parenting | bigWOWO

  203. Good summary, Eurasian!

    Amy Chua also has an interview in Kartika today:

    http://www.kartikareview.com/issue9/9chua.htm

    I’m not sure there is much else for me personally to say. What I wrote above addresses her article, and I still believe articles should stand on their own. Many of my issues were similar to Betty Ming Liu’s issues; the flippancy was annoying, given what some Asian kids go through. I also still think it’s ironic that our cultural dialogue is conducted almost exclusively by AFCC members, even though I love lots of them.

    As for reading what Amy has to say about Tiger parenting–I’m just not sure I’m convinced that there would be anything I’d learn from her memoir. With all those great books coming out of Australia, my reading time might be better spent with other books. :)

  204. Go on, B, give it a read. I’d recommend you read it for several reasons.

    Firstly, the article doesn’t properly represent what she’s about. It’s like watching only the original “Star Wars (A New Hope)” but not any of the other 5 movies in the series and thus concluding that Darth Vader is merely a one-dimensional baddie.

    Secondly, given that Chua has become something of a major Asian-American cultural icon (both good and bad), it’s probably worth having a good understanding of all the angles.

    Thirdly, it’s actually a really good read. I still came out of it thinking she was a bit nuts and feeling a bit shocked by some of the things she resorted to, but I enjoyed reading it nonetheless. And I don’t read that many books (short attention span, you see).

    Btw I think the flippancy you describe is partly a by-product of the article’s editing and lack of context. There are a lot of things she describes doing, that the article makes it seem like she is advocating doing, but there is a key difference between those two things.

  205. The guide to parenting is to have a good cop bad cop routine. One parent is strict (some what), the other laid back. That way the kid can have a more balance view.

  206. Thank you for pointing out the white guy. This bitch can’t even speak, read, or write Chinese. Fucking typical Asian bitch who only cares about money and expects her kids to act the same way.
    I’m glad my Chinese mom AND dad are not like this.

  207. Byron, in light of the comments on this thread, why not just re-title the post “Fucking typical Asian bitches”?
    Or alternatively, “Frustrated Asian guys get an excuse to vent their shitty attitudes towards women”.

  208. @bigwowo

    You got to admit that the first title suggested would probably generate unprecedented level of traffic to this site though.

    Maybe you should do an experiment with just the title and no contents/unrelated contents and see how many comments that will create.

  209. I think that a better and more scholarly article would be titled “Mental Illness in Asian American men” and its sister subtitle “Emotional Stuntedness”. Then maybe later “Asian Alpha-PUAs who are actually cowards”, and then “HBD proponents with sub-normal IQs”

  210. Why is the art of music required to endure the ill-informed antics of such inartistic imbeciles as Amy Chua? Her lust for fame as an old-fashioned stage mother of either a famous violinist (yet another mechanical Sarah Chang?) or a famous pianist (yet another mechanical Lang Lang?) shines through what she perceives as devotion to the cultivation of the cultural sensitivities of her two unfortunate daughters.

    Daughter Lulu at age 7 is unable to play compound rhythms from Jacques Ibert with both hands coordinated? Leonard Bernstein couldn’t conduct this at age 50! And he isn’t the only musician of achievement with this-or-that shortcoming. We all have our closets with doors that are not always fully opened.

    And why all this Chinese obsession unthinkingly dumped on violin and piano? What do the parents with such insistence know of violin and piano repertoire? Further, what do they know of the great body of literature for flute? For French horn? For organ? For trumpet? Usually, nothing!

    For pressure-driven (not professionally-driven!) parents like Amy Chua their children, with few exceptions, will remain little more than mechanical sidebars to the core of classical music as it’s practiced by musicians with a humanistic foundation.

    Professor Chua better be socking away a hefty psychoreserve fund in preparation for the care and feeding of her two little lambs once it becomes clear to them both just how empty and ill-defined with pseudo-thorough grounding their emphasis has been on so-called achievement.

    Read more about this widespread, continuing problem in Forbidden Childhood (N.Y., 1957) by Ruth Slenczynska.
    ______________________

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  211. Continuing to follow the saga of what may be one of the more outrageous examples – and there are similar examples aplenty! – of the child abuses of Amy Chua, I think it timely and prudent to provide a healthy, humane counterpoint by way of a much different kind of example of adult guidance to a young stranger. To wit:

    ADVICE TO A YOUNG PERSON INTERESTED IN A CAREER IN THE LAW

    In May 1954, M. Paul Claussen, Jr, a 12-year-old boy living in Alexandria, Virginia, sent a letter to Mr Justice Felix Frankfurter in which he wrote that he was interested in “going into the law as a career” and requested advice as to “some ways to start preparing myself while still in junior high school.” This is the reply he received:

    My Dear Paul:
    No one can be a truly competent lawyer unless he is a cultivated man. If I were you I would forget about any technical preparation for the law. The best way to prepare for the law is to be a well-read person. Thus alone can one acquire the capacity to use the English language on paper and in speech and with the habits of clear thinking which only a truly liberal education can give. No less important for a lawyer is the cultivation of the imaginative faculties by reading poetry, seeing great paintings, in the original or in easily available reproductions, and listening to great music. Stock your mind with the deposit of much good reading, and widen and deepen your feelings by experiencing vicariously as much as possible the wonderful mysteries of the universe, and forget about your future career.
    With good wishes,
    Sincerely yours,
    [signed] Felix Frankfurter

    From THE LAW AS LITERATURE, ed. by Ephraim London, Simon and Schuster, 1960.
    __________________

    I knew that a Paul Claussen had been a major figure (1972-2007) in the Office of the Historian of The United States Department of State in Washington, with an abiding interest in The Great Seal of The United States. http://diplomacy.state.gov/documents/organization/101044.pdf
    An obituary of Dr Claussen is on page 47 in http://2001-2009.state.gov/documents/organization/86414.pdf
    and http://www.thefreelibrary.com/M.+Paul+Claussen,+history's+friend%3A+office+of+the+historian+suffers+a…-a0167843232

    So, wishing to determine whether or not the elder Claussen was, indeed, the boy writing to Justice Frankfurter in 1954 I wrote to his former colleague at State. The reply received today follows.

    —– Original Message —–
    From: PA History Mailbox
    To: ‘Andre M. Smith’
    Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:11 AM
    Subject: RE: Chris Morrison

    Dear Mr. Smith,

    Copied below is the response I received from one of Paul Claussen’s long-time colleagues here in the Office of the Historian.

    Yes it is. The young Paul wanted to be a lawyer and so decided to write Felix Frankfurter and ask for his advice. Frankfurter evidently was taken with his letter and wrote back at length…Frankfurter of course kept a copy and the text of the letter has been published in collections of Frankfurter’s writings.

    Please contact us of you have any additional questions.

    Best regards,
    Chris

    Christopher A. Morrison, Ph.D.
    Historian, Policy Studies Division
    U.S. Department of State
    Office of the Historian (PA/HO)
    _________________________________

    Dr Claussen did follow the advice of Justice Frankfurter. And he came out of that advice none the worse for it. The world is much bigger, richer, more tolerant, and more laden with opportunities than the blinkered view of Amy Chua would have her daughters and fellow fear-laden mothers without Ivy League tenure believe.

    For a very well-balanced alternative to the mania – and it is nothing less – to which the many Chuas of the world subscribe, read the refreshingly informed reports on http://orient.bowdoin.edu/orient/article.php?date=2009-12-04&section=3&id=2, http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/09/28/china, and http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/10/16/liberalarts
    ________________________

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  212. Amy Chua has never lived in China. Her understanding of its culture, that is, the culture as it’s truly lived by the indigenous people in their dailyness, then must be that of the tourist. Here perhaps is one view of a China she may or may not have seen.

    http://bbs.tiexue.net/post_5057209_1.html [Each of the four pictures can be enlarged for clearer viewings.] In what likely is Nanning, the capitol of Guang Xi region, the boy was caught stealing money to pursue his addiction in Internet gaming. (This is a common problem in China, especially among adolescent boys. http://playnoevil.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/1076-China-continues-focus-on-Internet-Addiction-Reading-the-Tea-Leaves.html) As punishment his father has publicly stripped off the boy’s clothes, lathered him with some unstated brown caking (which I shall discretely hope is mere mud), bound his hands behind his back, and then pulled him on his back and buttocks by one foot for disgrace through a very-public area of the city.

    On contemporary corporal punishment in China:

    A third of them [child respondents] said corporal punishment negatively affected their personalities, causing them to become introverted and depressed.

    Legal experts cited by the paper said China should ban corporal punishment in its marriage laws to protect children from physical and psychological harm and to protect the rights of minors.

    They blamed the common occurrence of corporal punishment in China on the traditional belief that children were a part of their parents, not individuals. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-12/07/content_397964.htm

    The routine beatings allegedly given to child gymnasts in China are no different to the corporal punishment that was once part of daily life in English public schools, according to the head of the Olympic movement.

    Mr Rogge said he believed that if physical punishment is being used to train young athletes in China, then it is likely to be confined to sports such as gymnastics and swimming, where the age of competitors is much younger than in the other Olympic sports. What is not known is how widespread the practice is. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/1504716/Chinas-abuse-of-its-athletes-is-no-different-to-Britains-public-schools-says-Olympics-chief.html

    “It was a pretty disturbing experience. I was really shocked by some of what was going on. I know it is gymnastics and that sport has to start its athletes young, but I have to say I was really shocked. I think it’s a brutal programme. They said this is what they needed to do to make them hard.

    “I do think those kids are being abused. The relationship between coach and child and parent and child is very different here. But I think it goes beyond the pale. It goes beyond what is normal behaviour. It was really chilling.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2368416/Olympics-Pinsent-upset-at-Chinese-abuse.html

    Anyone who thinks the Chinese are a race of genteel pacifists who, collectively, design their lives to awaken every morning wiser than they went to bed the night before is a candidate for some serious awakening of his own. As a whole person Amy Chua is a type; she is not an aberration.

    Now, for one question I have not seen asked anywhere. . . Does Professor Chua play a music instrument? If so, let’s hear some of it. If not, from what sources has she gathered her standards about music technique and style and how they might be taught to a very young child who has shown no particular affinity for any instrument? Can she play any music from what she has demanded from either of her two daughters? Can she play simultaneously triplets in the left hand and duolets in the right? Can she perform, even modestly, http://www.alfred.com/samplepages/00-16734_01~02.pdf, the composition she has demanded her post-toddler daughter play with assurance?

    There can be no doubt that Professor Chua likes violence, so long as it’s not directed at her, the core definition of a bully. She has said recently that there are parts of the world in which some of her parenting techniques might be considered child abuse. I do wish she could be persuaded to name (1) which some of those parts of the world are, (2) just which parenting techniques she is referring to, and (3) why she believes those same techinques should not be defined as child abuse in her home state of Connecticut.

    How did such a reprehensible woman obtain a position so high up on the feeding chain with so little prior experience in law education?

    HUSBAND, faculty of Yale Law School since 1990 : Jed Rubenfeld
    WIFE, faculty of Yale Law School since 2001 : Amy Chua

    As the lawyers may put it, Let the evidence speak for itself. The Tiger Mom has made it on her own claws.

    One last question: Who prevents Professor Chua from sitting on a toilet or eating a meal when, at any given moment, she is vexed beyond her capacity to complete an academic assignment or any other professional obligation within the proper time allocated for its completion?

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  213. I believe some useful purpose will be served by offering here, what the lawyers might like to call, but will seldom welcome, a healthy second opinion; a collective opinion that will demonstrate in abbreviated form the absolute folly of any attempt to teach music to children in the manner advocated by Amy Chua and her supporters.

    These titles, with a few accompanying comments, should be read only as an introduction to a vast, interesting subject. There is one observation one can make about them all, and many more on this same subject, if needed to prove the point: Their attempt at an inherent humane understanding. I shall let the individual writers speak for themselves. To wit:

    C. C. Liu [fellow at the Centre of Asian Studies, The University of Hong Kong]: A Critical History of New Music in China, Columbia University Press, 2010.
    By the end of the nineteenth century, Chinese culture had fallen into a stasis, and intellectuals began to go abroad for new ideas. What emerged was an exciting musical genre that C. C. Liu terms “new music. With no direct ties to traditional Chinese music, “new music” reflects the compositional techniques and musical idioms of eighteenth- and nineteenth-century European styles. Liu traces the genesis and development of “new music” throughout the twentieth century, deftly examining the social and political forces that shaped “new music” and its uses by political activists and the government. http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-962-996-360-6/a-critical-history-of-new-music-in-china
    ___________________

    Brahmstedt’s China travels bring recognition: TTU [Tennessee Technical University] trumpet professor “Outstanding foreigner.” http://www.tntech.edu/pressreleases/brahmstedts-china-travels-bring-recognition-ttu-trumpet-professor-qoutstanding-foreignerq/
    ___________________

    Music Education in China: A look at primary school music education in China reveals numerous recent developments in general music, band and string programs, and private lessons. Music Educators Journal May 1997 83:28-52, doi:10.2307/3399021. Full Text (PDF)
    ___________________

    Howard Brahmstedt and Patricia Brahmstedt: Music education in China. Music Educators Journal 83(6):28-30, 52. May 1997.
    ___________________

    Joseph Kahn and Daniel J. Wakin: Classical music looks toward China with hope. The New York Time, 3 April 2007. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/arts/music/03class1.htm?pagewanted=all
    ___________________

    Ho Wai-Ching: A comparative study of music education in Shanghai and Taipei: Westernization and nationalization. A Journal of Comparative and International Education 34:2, 2004.
    ___________________

    Yuri Ishii and Mari Shiobara: Teachers’ role in the transition and transmission of culture. Journal of Education for Teaching 34(4):245-9, November 2008.
    There are some common trends, which indicate that certain values are now shared among music education policies of many Asian countries. These are an emphasis on the purpose of education as the development of children’s total human quality rather than mere transmission of skills and knowledge by rote learning, the encouragement of a learner-centered approach, the introduction of authentic assessment, the integration of existing subjects, and the assertion of cultural specificity.
    ___________________

    Chee-Hoo Lim: An historical perspective on the Chinese Americans in American music education. Research in Music Education May 2009 vol. 27 no. 2 27-37.
    ___________________

    Howard Brahmstedt: Trumpet playing in China. P. 29. International Trumpet Guild Journal, February 1993.
    ___________________

    Richard Curt Kraus: Pianos and politics in China. Middle-class ambitions and the struggle over Western music. Oxford University Press. New York, 1989.
    ___________________

    From Shanghai Conservatory to Temple University
    Yiyue Zhang holds both Bachelors and Masters in Music Education from Shanghai Conservatory of Music in China. Currently, she is pursuing a Master’s degree in Music Education at Temple University. Ms. Zhang is from a family of music. She first learned Chinese classic dance from her father at the age of 3. She then started to learn accordion at the age of 5 and piano at the age of 6. During the close to 20 years of piano training and education, she has also been learning saxophone, cello, vocal music and percussion instrument of Chinese ethnic nationalities. In addition to piano solo, Ms. Zhang has rich experiences as a piano accompanist for vocal and chorus performances. When she served as the accompanist for the female choir of Shanghai Conservatory in 2006, they participated in the Fourth World Chorus Competition and won the gold medal for female choir, silver medal for contemporary music and another silver medal for theological music. Before came the United States, Ms. Zhang taught general music at Shanghai Hongqiao Middle School and Shanghai North Fujian Rd. Primary School as her internship in 2006. From 2006 to 2008, she taught piano and music class in Shanghai Tong-de-meng Kindergarten while held Chinese Teacher Qualification Certificate. Ms. Zhang is currently the piano accompanist of Chinese Musical Voices located at Cherry Hill, NJ as well as the assistant conductor of Guanghua Chorus located at Blue Bell, PA. While holding Early Childhood Music Master Certification (Level 1) from The Gordon Institute for Music Learning, she is also actively engaged in the educational and cultural activities with the networks of local Chinese schools in the Philadelphia area. http://www.temple.edu/boyer/music/programs/musiced/MusicEducationGraduateAssistants.htm
    ___________________

    Li Ying-ling: Essential study on the function of children’s music education.
    Music education is beneficial in the comprehensive development of children’s healthy personality, helpful to enlighten the children’s creative thinking, helpful to educate the regulation senses of children, helpful to develop the children’s language and good emotion. It has certain social effect and realistic meaning for the growth of children. Every teacher should pay attention to the functional character of children music education, consciously meet the demands for music education of the children nowadays, strengthen the socialization function of music education, promote socialization proceeding of children. Music Department of Kunming University. Journal of Kunming University 2:2009.
    ___________________

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  214. Further on Chua as a Chinese surname . . .

    My wife, a gyn surgeon, hails from a family of intellectuals and professionals in Shanghai. She has four sisters and three brothers. Among those eight are six of their children between the ages of twenty-one and thirty-six. Chua as a Chinese surname is unknown to them all.

    Bilingual speakers at the consulates in New York for Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia all have told me the word chùa – with a grave – (= temple) is Vietnamese. A trilingual speaker at the City Campus Mahayana Temple at 133 Canal St in Manhattan has told me that the word chùa is common in Buddhist use but is not Chinese. In the illustration of the attachment hereto, the word for “temple” emblazoned is transliterated into pinyin as si or shu. http://www.mahayana.us/ But, again, I have it on the authority of my Chinese family that “chua” – at least as it’s pronounced in the nations subjoined to China and in English – is definitely not a Chinese word or name.

    Perhaps Chinese speakers of languages other than Wu or Mandarin, from elsewhere on the Mainland, may have an informed knowledge on this point of nomenclature countering what I’ve sent to you here.

    The faces of both father Leon Chua http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~chua/ and daughter Amy Chua http://www.leighbureau.com/speaker.asp?id=268 are textured similarly to reflect a family origin, at least within the previous handful of Chua generations as likely more south than Mainland China; although within fluid populations, this is speculative. Honestly, though, that part of the world is such a mixed bag of all its ingredients that . . .
    _______________

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  215. Not sure if you’re a “bot” or a real person, Andre, but I know lots of Chuas. Only it’s usually pronounced Chwah, rather than Choo-uh.

  216. Actually, there maybe a possibility that andre has a point, but i am no expert in chinese genealogy… The han has always been more of a cultural group than a racial one. The surname is useful for tracing origin.

  217. @ Raguel,
    I think it’s much more useful to dicuss the merits of Amy Chua’s book or approach. Andre it seems would rather indulge in conspiracy theories about her academic qualifications and level of Chineseness.

  218. Internet bots, also known as web robots, WWW robots or simply bots, are software applications that run automated tasks over the Internet. Typically, bots perform tasks that are both simple and structurally repetitive, at a much higher rate than would be possible for a human alone. The largest use of bots is in web spidering, in which an automated script fetches, analyzes and files information from web servers at many times the speed of a human. Each server can have a file called robots.txt, containing rules for the spidering of that server that the bot is supposed to obey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_bot
    ___________________

    Am I a “bot?” This is absolutely hilarious! “You are starting to sound like a “birther”.” The jokes continue. “Actually, there may be a possibility that andre has a point, but i am no expert in chinese genealogy.” You’re all getting warmer. “I think it’s much more useful to dicuss the merits of Amy Chua’s book or approach.” Warmer yet. “Andre it seems would rather indulge in conspiracy theories about her academic qualifications and level of Chineseness.” Uh oh; the temp just lowered again. “Do you think andre is a bot though? It would be sad if i havebeen duped by a bot.” These penetrating observations could, indeed, be a major ego buster for all of us, if true.

    Now, so far as any alleged indulgence in a possible conspiracy theory goes here, a close look at my writings on the subject of Amy Chua will show they are wide-ranging and, in my unbiased review, stay on the topic set out for each chosen subject. The strings uniting all of these writings are five fold. First, as an overseer of the teaching of young children, she is dangerously unqualified – not under qualified, but unqualified – to have assumed such a responsibility. Second, as, seemingly, a wholly unathletic person, she has no valid authority overseeing the development of physical skills in a young child. She may believe, falsely, that motherhood gives her license of carte blanche on this matter; but it will be to the detriment of the child. Third, Professor Chua is definitely a musical ignoramus; possibly an ignoramus in all the arts. Fourth, that part of the whole world that’s been concerned with her claims of Chinese authenticity have denounced her for having made such. Fifth, her firm premise that she speaks for Chinese parents in China has been effectively repudiated.

    “Justonemore thing regarding the origin of the surname Cai before i goback to the topic lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cai_(state)” To cite a reference on China, contemporaneous with the construction of the Parthenon on the Acropolis as an authentication of the present use of a word or name in China is more than a bit-of-a-stretch. I’m not foolish enough to play the linguist on Chinese dialects. My authorities for the claim of the word are what I have written about elsewhere. To wit:

    “My wife, a gyn surgeon, hails from a family of intellectuals and professionals in Shanghai. She has four sisters and three brothers. Among those eight are six of their children between the ages of twenty-one and thirty-six. Chua as a Chinese surname is unknown to them all.

    Bilingual speakers at the consulates in New York for Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia all have told me the word chùa – with a grave – (= temple) is Vietnamese. A trilingual speaker at the City Campus Mahayana Temple at 133 Canal St in Manhattan has told me that the word chùa is common in Buddhist use but is not Chinese. In the illustration of the attachment hereto, the word for “temple” emblazoned is transliterated into pinyin as si or shu. http://www.mahayana.us/ But, again, I have it on the authority of my Chinese family that “chua” – at least as it’s pronounced in the nations subjoined to China and in English – is definitely not a Chinese word or name.”

    Regardless of what challenge anyone may wish to make about the foregoing statements, I did not present them as my own, but rather of those in whom I have placed some confidence. Notwithstanding their authority, I have always believed it is within bounds that authorities may disagree. And on that point I concluded my thought on the matter thus.

    “Perhaps Chinese speakers of languages other than Wu or Mandarin, from elsewhere on the Mainland, may have an informed knowledge on this point of nomenclature countering what I’ve sent to you here.”

    As a footnote signoff, N has written on January 18, 2012 at 12:17 pm
    “What’s your opinion on Yundi Li and Yoyo Ma.”

    I must write, sadly, that I’m unfamiliar first-hand with the work of Yundi Li, although I’ll admit that his professional history – from post infancy! – does read like that of a thoroughgoing professional musician. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Yundi Ma, although significantly younger than I, was a precocious schoolmate of mine in Juilliard. It’s musicians like him that makes attending a school like ours worth all the effort.

    I remain,

    Your as Noconspitorial Antibirther,

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  219. Our Andre M. Smith is not a bot!!! WEEE-HAAA! Pleased to have you with us Mr Andre sir, I appreciate much anybody who can stick it to that nasty woman. XD

    “To cite a reference on China, contemporaneous with the construction of the Parthenon on the Acropolis as an authentication of the present use of a word or name in China is more than a bit-of-a-stretch.”

    No really, we Chinese are epic in that way. :D

  220. An integral amalgam of defining examples of narcissism that Professor Chua has instilled in her two daughters is self-advancement with sexual provocation. Her public signature posture is one of excessive toothiness, for a university professor exceedingly vulgar displays of long legs, and breast projections that might have won her Blue Ribbons as “Best in Show” as a candidate in any Sweater Queen contest during the 1950s. http://www.britishpathe.com/vi…..en-contest She never misses an opportunity to increase the image of her breast size by folding her arms under them; in one oft-reproduced photograph she actually appears to be elevating the left one nudged up by a folded arm. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wi…..ychua4.png

    The elder Chua daughter, Sophia, has learned her lesson well. http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypos…..15;450.jpg and http://www.facebook.com/amytig…..38;theater,

    Birds of a feather . . . A coop of nesting trophy wives!
    _______________________

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  221. @ Andre M Smith:

    If you were clutching at straws earlier with your “Amy Chua must be a fake because I’ve never met a Chinese person named Chua” logic, your latest fixation is even weirder.

    How much do you think you can tell about someone from how they fold their arms? Are you psychoanalyzing Amy Chua and her daughters by studying their breasts? You know that’s kinda creepy, right? Why are you so obsessed about this shit, man? You sound like someone who needs a hobby.

    _______________________

    Eurasian Sénsation, Bachelor of Arts , Dip. Ed. (Monash University)
    Diploma Community Development (Swinburne)
    Formerly pizza delivery driver at Pizza Hut
    Once learned trombone for 2 months
    Fairly good singer at karaoke

  222. I actually think that it is an advantage and demonstration of higher intelligence to be able to pose and “cook up” photos like that. If only I had learned such skills when I was younger, then I wouldn’t look SO FUCKING STUPID in all my photographs.

    _____________________

    Raguel the Sufferer
    PUA Veteran
    Recovering from post-traumatic stress disorder
    Ex-resident of the Silent Hill sanatorium in the Twilight Zone

    “After years of learning PUA, I decided to pick up Warhammer 40k instead” – pithy quote and breakthrough moment

  223. Eurasian Sensation says: April 2, 2012 at 7:08 am
    @ Andre M Smith:

    If you were clutching at straws earlier with your “Amy Chua must be a fake because I’ve never met a Chinese person named Chua” logic, your latest fixation is even weirder.
    ______________

    It will be clear to even the most casual reader that someone who can confidently call himself Eurasian Sensation is unable to distinguish a critique (mine) from a rant (his). By placing “Amy Chua must be a fake because I’ve never met a Chinese person named Chua” within quotation marks and attributing such nonsense to me he also may be unable to read; at least to do so in the language I have written. And, by writing that my “latest fixation is even weirder” he is completely off the mark. That “fixation” ES has referred to is that of Professor Chua, which she has clearly passed along to her two daughters as both acceptable public posturing and yet one more device to be called upon in time of presumed need.

    If, during your advanced studies in Monash, you had bothered to set aside time studying the history of gesture you would have had the answer to your question, “How much do you think you can tell about someone from how they fold their arms?” I think a reasonable reply to your query, “Are you psychoanalyzing Amy Chua and her daughters by studying their breasts?” is no, not at all. You must understand that, regardless of how one may approach the problem of Professor Chua very little skill is needed to understand her as a fully functional – dysfunctional, if you prefer – narcissist desperately living through her children a set of childhood aspirations she has repeatedly admitted were denied to her. “You know that’s kinda creepy, right?” Wrong; what’s creepy about commenting on any body parts that are a central focus of a legitimate point being made? “ Why are you so obsessed about this shit, man?” I’m not quite your sure what your “shit” refers to but you must learn (since you obviously have not yet done) to distinguish obsession from conviction.

    I’ve read that you no longer work for Pizza Hut and that could not find the ________________ to practice a music instrument for longer than two months; perhaps something like your rôle model, Amy Chua. In addition to being one in command of the English language, logic, and personal discipline, does anyone, besides yourself, think you are “Fairly good singer at karaoke?”

    Let us hear more from you about your successes.
    ______________________

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  224. There is a recurring theme without solid core that continues to recycle on the question of Amy Chua and her style as a mother. J.G. (unfortunately anonymous, as are most of the endorsements of Professor Chua) has written

    I think it’s easy to take cheap shots at Chua, but it’s hard to argue that the average American child needs less discipline, less direction or less respect for others.
    It might seem amusing to mock her (her “cushy job” and “hottie husband”), but harder to actually consider the points being made in a non-defensive way, without trying to paint yourself as the “cool mom” who prefers three martini playdates?
    p.s. It seems ironic that an Asian-American female who went to Williams (fulfilling a fantasy of Chinese parents everywhere) would paint her parents as laissez-faire and herself as moderately motivated.
    Posted by: J.G. | January 18, 2011 at 02:31 PM http://thecareerist.typepad.com/thecareerist/2011/01/chinese-moms.html

    I, for one, have no interest whatsoever in her “cushy job” and “hottie husband.” Nor do I have any objection to her having become a millionaire from the sales of her book and that she will be well on her way to becoming a multimillionare once the planned translations of it into thirteen of the world’s languages have been completed. My uncompromising objections to Professor Chua are two-fold: her abuses of young children pursued to further her own narcissistic urgencies and her deep commitment of abuse of the art of music – of which she seemingly has no knowledge whatsoever – for reasons having nothing to do with that art. My shots at her are far from what J.G. calls “cheap shots.” They do in fact go to the heart of the problems with her that remain my chief concerns.

    J.G. and most of his fellow travelers in their tepid defenses of Professor Chua continue to focus on her inherited emphasis of the sorry state of public education in The United States. What else is new?

    As with most of the ringing endorsements of Amy Chua, those from J.G. are clearly from a mind not wholly engaged. He has written ” it’s hard to argue that the average American child needs less discipline, less direction or less respect for others. In his tangled syntax I’m quite sure he means – at least I’m hoping he means – it’s hard to argue that the average American child does not need more discipline, more direction or more respect for others.

    J.G. has written further, “p.s. It seems ironic that an Asian-American female who went to Williams (fulfilling a fantasy of Chinese parents everywhere) . . . “ Again, but this time TWO thoughts from nowhere! What has Williams College to do with Amy Chua (Harvard, A.B. ’84)? And since when has Williams even been on the “fantasy” palate “of Chinese parents everywhere?”

    Professor Chua usually receives the quality of defense she deserves.
    _______________________

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  225. Time to delete every post from this guy. He is wilfully abusing the hospitality shown to him on this blog by using it as a tool not for discussion and sharing, but for leaving his “mark” on Amy Chua in some sort of personal crusade.

    I doubt if this guy even did more than give this blog a cursory and cynical look thru.

  226. Raguel says:
    March 18, 2012 at 9:54 am
    Our Andre M. Smith is not a bot!!! WEEE-HAAA! Pleased to have you with us Mr Andre sir, I appreciate much anybody who can stick it to that nasty woman. XD
    _________________________

    Raguel says:
    April 6, 2012 at 10:44 am
    Time to delete every post from this guy. He is wilfully abusing the hospitality shown to him on this blog by using it as a tool not for discussion and sharing, but for leaving his “mark” on Amy Chua in some sort of personal crusade.
    _________________________

    My Dear Raguel:

    Will you kindly clarify for me just who it is you are referring to as “this guy?”

    Cordially,

    André M. Smith

  227. @ André M. Smith:

    I’ve read that you no longer work for Pizza Hut and that could not find the ________________ to practice a music instrument for longer than two months; perhaps something like your rôle model, Amy Chua. In addition to being one in command of the English language, logic, and personal discipline, does anyone, besides yourself, think you are “Fairly good singer at karaoke?”

    Let us hear more from you about your successes.

    For all your éducation, cléarly no one évér taught you how to figure out whén soméoné is purély taking the piss out of you.

    _________________________
    Eurasian Sensation, Bachelor of Arts , Dip. Ed. (Monash University)
    Expert in comparative female anatomy
    Owns a CD by the Cinematic Orchestra
    Once dated the cousin of the guy who won Australian Idol

  228. SECOND REQUEST ……………………………………..

    My Dear Raguel:

    Will you kindly clarify for me just who it is you are referring to as “this guy?”

    Cordially,

    André M. Smith

  229. Between 2 January 2012 and 6 April (three months and one week) I wrote extensively on BigWOWO about Professor Chua and the deleterious effect her work has had on the very segments of societies, East and West, she had hoped to sway to her perverse view of motherhood and its responsibilities.

    The subjects around Amy Chua present a wide palate from which I might choose. On those which I believed would be further enhanced by opinion more informed than mine I sought advice from authorities in Shanghai, Suzhou, and New York City, members of the corps diplomatique from Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos at The United Nations, a Buddhist temple in New York, and The Office of the Historian at The US Department of State in D.C. In every such example I gave credit elsewhere where due instead of silently taking it for myself. At all times I attempted to aim well by presenting every subject civilly on as high a plane as possible.

    After one-quarter year of silence my work passed without serious review or rejoinder. Suddenly, during the five days of 2-6 April contrary opinion took an abrupt decent — a collapse — into a focus in which it will be in my better interest to avoid becoming entangled. “Shit,” “piss,” “fucking,” “weird,” “bot,” and “creepy” have become the coin of exchange on BigWOWO by which my work is now to be assessed and valued.

    On 6 & 8 April I wrote to you “Will you kindly clarify for me just who it is you are referring to as “this guy?” Both requests have gone unanswered. Two additional pieces I have sent to you have remained unpublished without acknowledgement they were received.

    When George Eastman (1854-1932) realized that his moment was at hand he wrote, “My time has come; why wait.” And off he went.

    My time has come, and off I now go! With a wave to Mr Kilmer . . .

    So now, BigWOWO, I bow out
    My time has come to flee.
    Blogs are writ by fools like me
    But, now no longer me for thee.
    ____________________

    André M. Smith, Bach Mus, Mas Sci (Juilliard)
    Diploma (Lenox Hill Hospital School of Respiratory Therapy)
    Postgraduate studies in Human and Comparative Anatomy (Columbia University)
    Formerly Bass Trombonist
    The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra of New York,
    Leopold Stokowski’s American Symphony Orchestra (Carnegie Hall),
    The Juilliard Orchestra, Aspen Festival Orchestra, etc.

  230. Pingback: Jed Rubenfeld on Father’s Day | bigWOWO

  231. Pingback: New study says tiger parenting doesn’t work | bigWOWO

  232. Something makes me suspect Chua wrote the book mainly to sell, and that she really doesn’t do what she claim in them. It might actually be fiction.

  233. Pingback: New Amy Chua book | bigWOWO

  234. Goot Foon is Arrowroot starch, I’m staring at a bag of it right now. We picked it up at the local Chinese grocery market. Goot Foon, this is how my family pronounces it.
    Cheers,
    Bill

  235. Write more, thats all I have to say. Literally, it seems as
    though you relied on tthe video to make your point.

    You obviously know what youre talking about, why
    waste your intelligence on just posting videos to your skte when you coulpd
    bbe giving uus something enlightening too read?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *


8 + three =

You may use these HTML tags and attributes: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong>