Asian Racism and the “Asian of Reason”

One of our readers posted a link to the “Asian of Reason” a few days ago.  I’m always interested in Asian American opinions, and I was excited about the existence of a new Asian American blog.  However, upon a quick reading of the material, much of the material and rhetoric disturbed me.  It seemed like the point of the blog was to make the statement that there is a racial hierarchy and that people are the sum of their genes–which comes from race.  Some of the views are outright appalling to me. According to the blog, blacks tend to be loud and unruly, Asian men are somehow less “alpha” than white men, and White people…well, I guess White men sit at the top of the hierarchy since the blogger lists “Steve Sailer” in his blogroll.  Woo hoo for White Power.

This blog is upsetting to me for a number of reasons.  First, there is the racism (and I think that’s a fair word to use according to the dictionary definition.).  “Asian of Reason” goes to a hotel where there is a party, and he automatically jumps to stereotypical thinking upon seeing black people.  He fails to see the people’s individuality:

Then my senses sharpen and I discover that there is a “function” going on in the lobby/hotel bar.  And by function, I mean black party.  My first glimpse of Baltimore was that of intoxicated blacks dancing around the hotel lobby (they sure do dance good).

Why does he blame the party-goers rather than the hotel management?

There’s racial determinism against Asian people too, conveniently justified by some unspoken law of nature:

I believe Asian females gravitate towards white males because of a combination of genetics and the natural laws of attraction. In a multicultural society, these two groups of individuals will come together, far more often than an Asian male with a white female. This is part of HBD [human biodiversity]. I accept it. Even with copious amounts of game, there is not much a 5-7 beta Asian can do when pitted in a fight for an Asian female with an Alpha Aryan. Hell, there’s not much he can do against a beta Jew (BTW,this is not me, I’m 6-1 and athletic). Additionally, Asian female visual-spatial IQ=white male visual-spatial IQ, another reason why the two groups are so compatible.

Hahaha!  Alpha Aryan baby!!!

My second problem is the lack of reasoning on the blogger’s part. Even though he calls himself “The Asian of Reason,” the blogger seems to accept propositions without debate.  It’s like a White man says the sky is green and the blogger accepts it without question–it don’t matter if the sky itself opened its mouth and spoke!  Check out the paragraph above.  “I accept it.”  He accepts that White men are somehow better; he accepts his inferiority.  It seems like such a weak position to take for a person who puts time into blogging.  To me, if life is worth living, it’s worth understanding and debating.  Despite his admiration for the White man, the blogger doesn’t seem to follow the philosophy of the most famous White male philosopher who said that “the unexamined life is not worth living.”

Check out this story:

I believe the key to true friendships and race relations in general, is understanding limitations A few years ago, I tutored a fat black girl in economics and English.  At first, I expected a lot out of her.  I thought, with enough effort, she could do anything.  I was disheartened when I read her papers.  She could barely write one coherent paragraph.  The pain on her face as I coached her through an essay was unbearable for me.  After a few weeks, I realized this wasn’t my fault, she was just in possession of a low-IQ.She knew it, I knew it, we just hadn’t acknowledged it.  Once the truth came out, we became good friends.  Though our IQs were probably separated by three standard deviations or more, it didn’t stop us from laughing and smiling, chatting about our dreams.  Everyone, smart or poor, has dreams, no matter how disparate they may seem, the essence in our aspirations is the same.

Um…could it be that you just need work on your tutoring skills?  If you’re basing your views of this poor girl based on her race, you know she comes from the race that produced people who can write, people like Alex Haley, Toni Morrison, Alice Walker, Zora Neale Hurston, James Wright, Martin Luther King, Claude/Shelby Steele, and Malcolm Gladwell.  Not that race should have anything to do with it…but where’s the logic?  He later goes on to say that he and the girl became good friends once he realized she had a low IQ, but dude, you’re supposed to be her tutor, not her friend.

Third–and this is a big one for me–is the talent issue.  As you all know, I’ve posted on Talent many times.  It annoys me to no end when someone in a free country acts like a Stepin Fetchit (and no offense to “Asian of Reason,” but that’s what I’m seeing).  Obviously this kind of racist rhetoric benefits White racist types who want to maintain the current hierarchy, so why is an Asian guy doing the White racist’s work?  Pardon my crassness, but it’s like Hitler gets a free handjob from Hop-Sing.  The “Reasoner” knows how to write, and I would think he wouldn’t have made it into Johns Hopkins if he were a total stooge.  So why is he doing the White racist’s dirty work?  It’s a misuse of talent. He should be tearing up the world with bigger ideas.

I’ll close with a personal story.  Years after I learned how to read, I found a copy of a 1971 issue of Mad Magazine.  It was a great magazine–they parodied “A Clockwork Orange” which was the latest Stanley Kubrick movie at the time.  Anyway, there was a feature called, “You can never win with a racist.”  The magazine made fun of how racists justify their racism after the fact.  I don’t remember most of the jokes, but there was one piece that showed that back then there was a stereotype that black athletes would choke when the pressure got tough.  White men were seen as being better able to work well under pressure, even though black men were thought to be generally more athletic.

These days that stereotype would seem laughable given the amazing performances of multiple black athletes like Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, Tiger Woods (pre-car crash), and Anderson Silva.  It was a stereotype until it was no longer a stereotype.  The stereotype had no basis in fact, only in commonly held prejudices by the masses.

This is why it’s imperative that we use logic when trying to understand each other and to create progress.  Simply accepting racism is not reasonable or logical.  It’s not intellectually defensible.

PS:

1. Props to MN for her awesome reply to the “Asian of Reason.” I fell out of my chair laughing when I saw her post!  Reposted in part for y’all:

And we certainly don’t change shit by strutting around with vacuum for a head and spouting prehistorical mumbo jumbo about how AMs need to accept that the Alpha Aryans are genetically reenforced with ability to take any AFs they want. (oh, but not him, since, he’s 6′ 1″.)

Puhleeze. Granted, people of lower IQ do flock together and I have to gather that the girls he knows are equally low IQ, therefore easily swayed by the TOWERING presence of Alpha Aryans and… that guy… but, really? “Ooh, I’m putting down all these other guys who are 5′ 7″ because I’m 6′ 1″. Ooh, look at me.”

2.  Asian of Reason, you have hereby been served (and I will send an e-mail to make sure you get this.). Maybe I find your ideas repulsive, or maybe I don’t understand your ideas, but we hereby challenge you to a debate on the next bigWOWO podcast. As you said, “the key to true friendships and race relations in general is understanding limitations,” so let’s get them limitations out in the open.  Alpha Aryan baby!!!  As usual with those with whom we disagree or have disagreed, we will divide the podcast evenly so that both sides get the same amount of time to make their points.  We’ll have a neutral host.  Joining you from other side will either be me (a 5’8 beta Asian) or King (a 6 foot plus black guy who made the jpeg for this post).  It’s your choice who you want to debate.  You can bring a White friend to debate both of us if you want; hell, bring Steve Sailor if you have to.  HBD says that statistically you and your White friend should have an advantage over either of us–me, a non-athletic beta shorty with weak, dispassionate Asian genes, or King, a black guy who may or may not know how to dance.  The advantage is clearly yours.  Reasonable ideas ought to be able to stand up to debate.

Hey, maybe we’re all wrong and you’re right.  Being a guy who studies at Johns Hopkins, maybe you know something we don’t.  In any case, you publicize your ideas on your blog, and I think they’re dangerous if they remain unchallenged.   You treat it as scientific fact when it isn’t.  You need to stand behind your ideas.  Please don’t hide behind the internet.  Alpha men who stand 6’1 shouldn’t hide.  Let’s get these ideas out in the open and see how they stand.

Asian of Reason, we’re looking forward to meeting you!  Don’t be ducking us!

218 thoughts on “Asian Racism and the “Asian of Reason”

  1. I’m ready. HBD’ers and other race theorists are always saying their voices are being silenced. Let’s see if they step up to the plate.

    Sheesh, you can even bring a friend to help you out, AOR.

  2. It’s the Model Minority trap. Asian Americans are used to being second place. After all, second place isn’t so bad. Right below whites, but above everyone else, especially the “lowly” blacks. With a little bit of kow-towing, you might even achieve the token position among your white peers! The white man butters you up and tells you how smart and hard working you are, and you happily become his tool. Some Asians happily embrace the whole model minority stereotype, and why stop there? Why not start believing in all the other racist stereotypes to justify how smart and hard working you are (but sadly, still beta because school and work is all you know. Hey, at least you ain’t black, right?).

    It’s all a trap, and many Asians fall for it. What’s the best way to train a horse? With the whip or with kindness? Obviously you train it with kindness. You pet it, you say how much better it is compared to the other animals, and eventually the horse will become tame and let you put a saddle on its back.

  3. Leon, I think that there’s truth in what you’re saying.

    The MAN has been offering Asian-Americans a faustian bargain for years. The offer goes something like this:

    Hey, you Asian-Americans seem to be a docile and well-behaved lot. And besides, you’ve somehow managed to make a lot of high test scores… especially in math and science. And we’ve noticed that there’s an awful lot of you people breeding in Asia (which honestly makes us a little uncomfortable). But here in America there’s not that many of you, so we’re willing to make a deal:

    The Yellow man can be our Number 2, if only you will back us up on our preferred racial hierarchy. This is the order that we want you to support:

    1) The White Man (Top Dog)
    2) East Asians (Compliant, smart, servants)
    3) Caucasian Hispanics (Speak the wrong language)
    4) Middle Easterners (Terrorists and oil)
    5) Southeast Asians (Gooks)
    6) Non-White Hispanics (Illegal aliens)
    7) Native Americans (Drunks and gambling)
    8) Blacks (STAY Away from these people they are TROUBLE!)

    So, we’re sorry about the few times we’ve gotten things a little mixed up… like the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1892, and the Japanese Internment Camps, and all those deaths by forced labor, when you people where building the railroads. But, we’re willing to forget about all that, and so should you. Besides… number 2 ain’t bad!

    What do you say?

    And once the Deal is offered and all of the Asians have left the room, they all have a good laugh, tear down the offered list, and pin up the REAL, and much shorter hierarchy:

    1) White People
    ________________
    2) Everybody Else

  4. I think Asian of Reason is a troll. I have never met a single Alpha Asian guys who have such a sorry views of Asian people.

  5. A troll with his own blogsite, with what… over a years worth of blog entries? (most of which aren’t even on this subject) That must be one dedicated troll!

  6. Leon,

    You and King hit the nail right on the head. It’s a kind of partnership, one which, as Mama Nabi pointed out, has no basis in fact. History proves that people are constantly in a state of flux, and these racialists think they know so much about a person or group of people based on nothing more than race. The Asian ones have accepted the Faustian bargain.

    The funny thing is that once Massah is out of the picture, they can’t function on their own. They’re used to doing the Massah’s bidding that when Massah leaves the house they become helpless. Already there’s one guy talking smack on AOR’s site, but where’s the back up? “Oh, look at how tough I am, but make sure no one finds out your identity!”

    http://piepointonefour.blogspot.com/2010/08/back-to-school.html?showComment=1283411603122#c5377308414411194866

    That’s real Alpha. I’m always very skeptical when someone presumes to know something about a person or a population based on…well, presumptions.

  7. What is great about the Internet is that one can post great, idiotic, informed and misinformed posts.

    It appears that the blogger is based on the East Coast and limited knowledge of the history of Asians in the U.S. and/or of Asians who live beyond his East Coast friends.

    Having read some additional posts on the blog, it merits little time or consideration from people who want some accurate information about the APA communities.

    Sadly, this blogger’s words is a detriment to a multiethnic/cross-cultural world that exists in the fast-growing “Minority-Majority” states such as California – where I reside.

    This blogger might want to visit http://us_asians.tripod.com/timeline-1930.html#ng-poon-chew to learn about an “Alpha” Chinese male (OMG) who spoke PERFECT English fighting the Chinese Exclusion up to his death in the 1930s!

  8. I actually think this is satire, except it’s a White guy in grad school at Johns Hopkins. I don’t think any straight Asian male that grew up in the states would say something so profoundly odd like this when commenting on ass and tits:

    —————————
    As an Asian male, I find large asses and large boobs strangely repulsive. Funny, right? There’s something about big butts that make my brain and penis say “NO”. I would go a step further and say that it’s more than a marginal preference. It’s probably something in my genetic code. HBD! I like looking at attractive women of all races, but only East Asian women have real power over me. I like flatter ass and smaller tits! Do you prefer women of the same race as yourself?
    —————————

    NAMcity, Maryland, United States — Why not VIETcity? Any Asian would say Viet before Nam. Most white people and veterans refer to Vietnam (and the war) as Nam.

    East Asian HBD blog. — Really?

    All the knowledge this person knows about Asian and Asian American culture are simplistic and pop culture — and intermediate at best. Forgive me for saying this, but it’s very effective humor. As pure satire, of course. There aren’t a lot of posts. I read several, and I now believe it is a White dude espousing Steve Sailer talking points with a mathematical twist from the pov of a snobby, elitist East Asian brat.

    I could be wrong. If so, I’ll tag the longer comment I wrote on the thread later.

  9. @King

    I think you’re absolutely spot on.
    That’s how the most of the european colonisation works – pit minorities against other minorities and rake in the benefits. And dilute the ill feelings towards the real culprits.

  10. NAM refers to Non-Asian Minority, not Vietnam.

    I am not a white supremacist. How can I be? Asians are smarter, have better food, and don’t smell! White people suck! TMM, thanks for picking up on the satirical aspect of my blog. Your friends took it way too seriously.

  11. AOR,

    Didn’t know it was an acronym. You should come on the podcast with King and Jaehwan and I’ll believe it. They’re very nice people. =) Maybe you can talk about how Asians need to be more creative and find better ways of rhetorically communicating through prose without fear or reprisal from the progressive nuthouse. And possibly even how Asian Americans, as you put it, need to stop taking things way “too seriously.” That would be fantastic show.

    According to human biodiversity, and of course King’s ethnic totem pole, I am ranked 5th.

  12. It’s an out, TMM. Read the seriousness of his first post here. He wasn’t being satirical at all:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/08/the-happy-post/#comment-6090

    Read the story about the black girl. Or his defense of his “opinions.” Or his blogroll. This guy is so far on the defensive that he’s started deleting comments on his blog. He got dog-piled here (and probably on his blog too, but it’s hard to tell since he’s deleting.) It’s kind of like anyone who gets called out–“Can’t you guys take a joke?” Look at those celebrities who get caught. It’s always the same excuse.

    When someone tutors a little girl and then uses her struggles as a means of promoting “human biodiversity,” I don’t think it’s a joke. Nor do I think it’s possible to take that too seriously.

    Anyway, he has agreed to the podcast. We’ll put something together. I don’t know if he’ll verbally support the ideas he put forth in his blog, or whether he’ll choose another route. In either case, we’ll get these ideas out there.

  13. “According to human biodiversity, and of course King’s ethnic totem pole, I am ranked 5th.”

    Hey Militant, that puts you 3 levels over me!!!

  14. B,

    Now that you confirmed he’s Asian (I still can’t get over that he’s not White), which I had my serious doubts, I strongly believe in having an artistic license — blogger, writer, filmmaker, or what have you. I read the post about the black girl and I caught the satire, as grotesque as it may have come off to others. But he doesn’t let anyone off the hook. If he swears by HBD, more power to him.

    It’s his personal blog. I have no quarrels with it. I think political correctness needs a check as well, and we as a community need to lend AA/API writers and artists their autonomy.

    We’ve differed on this very issue before. I’ll definitely listen in on the podcast. I know you guys will bring some interesting perspectives.

  15. It’s kind of like anyone who gets called out–”Can’t you guys take a joke?” Look at those celebrities who get caught. It’s always the same excuse.

    Reminds me of those hipster-douchebag magazines and e-zines who try to be “ironic.”

    Still, I thought he was serious, and was wondering if Steve Sailer was trolling you.

  16. So…whats the problem here? AOR has the right to an opinion right? Seems to me like a mountain is being made of a molehill. And for all the people here who have such a hard time believing AOR is asian (and not white), is that really that hard to believe? That all asian people don’t think and feel the exact same? As asians, should we be obliged to follow one, singular, monolithic collective way of thinking? To me, that is real racism, the expectation that asians (or any other race) should act collectively first as a race, as opposed to first acting as an individual.

    I did find a lot of the white man against minorities conspiracy theories rather harebrained, and upon actual observation they don’t really hold up that well. Its the same kind of puerile reasoning that I would expect to encounter in the social justice studies department of any college or university. Perhaps the reason why asians tend to hang out a lot with whites is maybe because they have more in common with each other? If not culturally then socioeconomically. 90% of my friends are from roughly the same social class as me. I am middle class, Naturally…this includes a lot of white people. I seriously doubt that I am the unwitting dupe in some massive conspiracy to suck up to white people.

    Furthermore, just because all of us minorities may not be white, a negative trait really doesn’t mean much as a common denominator. Its purely arbitrary. For example, King paints race relations in america as whites against everybody else, but in reality this is a gross oversimplification. All groups have their own grievances with each other. In the context of a society, I have never seen good evidence for the omniscient oppression of the white man. In fact, to juxtapose the situation would bring to light an unpleasant truth, anybody remember the 1992 LA riots? To me it very much appeared to be the BLACK man that was oppressing the asians. Additionally, I remember in highschool quite well that it was seldom whites that made for a disruptive, uncomfortable, oppressive (pun intended) learning environment, it was almost always groups of blacks. And from what i’ve heard anecdotally, this tends to be a rather universal phenomena. Thankfully not all blacks choose to act in this manner, but many that I have met do. So you see, the actual situation is much more complex than king would have you believe.

    I have found this post, and the comments within a goldmine of lols. Here’s a gem right here:

    “The funny thing is that once Massah is out of the picture, they can’t function on their own. They’re used to doing the Massah’s bidding that when Massah leaves the house they become helpless.”

    Um ok…can’t function on our own? What exactly is that even supposed to mean? I doubt you even know what that actually means in practical terms. Do asian people just shut down and stop operating if white people aren’t around? hahaha. What would you define as “massah’s” (really?) bidding? Being a law abiding citizen? If so, count me in!

    “Hey, you Asian-Americans seem to be a docile and well-behaved lot. And besides, you’ve somehow managed to make a lot of high test scores…”

    Yeah…we sort of are. Might as well call a spade a spade. Thats funny too, I never recall getting a memo from the MAN to act in such a manner, the more likely explanation is that that’s just simply the way we are. Funny how in asia they make a lot of high test scores too, even in the conspicuous absence of “the man”.

    “That’s how the most of the european colonisation works – pit minorities against other minorities and rake in the benefits. And dilute the ill feelings towards the real culprits.”

    Pit minorities against minorities huh? How exactly is this done? Outside of the realm of the abstract and ambiguous, please explain the mechanism through which this works. Raking in the benefits? What benefits? Can you name at least three? And who is benefiting? White people? Should I ask my white friends if they’re getting a check in the mail as the fruit from my supposedly wretched state of existence as an “oppressed” non white person in america?

    “It’s all a trap, and many Asians fall for it. What’s the best way to train a horse? With the whip or with kindness? Obviously you train it with kindness. You pet it, you say how much better it is compared to the other animals, and eventually the horse will become tame and let you put a saddle on its back.”

    Excuse me asshole, we are not horses. Leads me to question who the true racists here are. Thanks for demeaning my knowledge and awareness and insinuating that I am an impressionable, gullible fool. If anything, the impressionable and gullible folks are you all, you buy this fight whitey bullshit hook, line and sinker. I get the strong impression that most of you all are asian with the exception of king who is black. What you all don’t seem to realize is that the interests of asians and blacks are not in alignment. Each group has different collective concerns. (Affirmative action anyone? This helps blacks yet discriminates against asians.) Yet you uncritically take up the fight against “the man” and don’t even know why. This shows the fallacy of arbitrary racial/pan-minority politics. You do realize that your current attitude benefits blacks most of all, which is not a bad thing, but you should be extremely cognizant of the fact that you get very little out of this particular exchange. Why take up the fight for somebody else? Or if do you happen to be so altruistically inclined, then at least recognize that you gain absolutely nothing from it.

    Where you all get your views of the world from? TV? Movies? Your college professors? Or are you all simply paranoid about whitey?

  17. kinda funny how you all don’t even bother to debunk any of the points I bring up, you just fixate on whether or not i’m asian. Pretty much shows who’s right.

  18. “So…whats the problem here? AOR has the right to an opinion right? “

    This is a common fallacy: The idea that holding an opinion that someone else’s opinion is incorrect, is somehow taking away their right to have the opinion. It’s purely circular and fallacious reasoning.

    “And for all the people here who have such a hard time believing AOR is asian (and not white), is that really that hard to believe? That all asian people don’t think and feel the exact same?”

    I think some of the incredulity came from the idea of an Asian guy taking the public stance that Asians are biologically inferior to Whites on many levels. It’s not impossible for an Asian guy to hold this opinion, but it’s not nearly as likely as a White person believing it. I personally don’t question his ethnicity, based just on that, but I get why some people might.

    “For example, King paints race relations in america as whites against everybody else, but in reality this is a gross oversimplification. “

    More like an historic generalization. Do you know the difference? You also have to understand the nuance between comparing/critiquing *systems* rather than individuals. It is irrefutable that the legal, political, and economic *systems*, in the United States have historically given advantage to White persons, and have disadvantaged non-White persons. I mean, most White people don’t even dispute that fact. I’m not saying that things haven’t improved, and that progress hasn’t been made, but I’d say that the historic *generalization* still stands, to this date, due to social inertia. It takes time (sometimes generations) to reverse course on a ship this big.

    “I have never seen good evidence for the omniscient oppression of the white man. “

    Then you must be a rather unobservant student of recent history.
    Notice what these signs say:
    http://www.glynn.k12.ga.us/BHS/academics/junior/hunt/chloem10116/whites-only.gif

    http://penismightier.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/whitesonly_drinkingfountain.jpg

    Do you know what that means?
    White people allowed… ALL OTHER PEOPLE, keep out!

    White People
    __________
    All other people

    And in case you think that’s a typo, these might make it even more clear:
    No Mexicans!
    http://www.cah.utexas.edu/ssspot/lesson_plans/images/10_files/image006.gif
    No Chinamen!
    http://thereforeiam.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/no-dogs-or-chinese.jpg?w=500
    No Injuns!
    http://www.gonomad.com/features/0807/crazy-horse-images/saloon.jpg

    Get it?

    “In fact, to juxtapose the situation would bring to light an unpleasant truth, anybody remember the 1992 LA riots? To me it very much appeared to be the BLACK man that was oppressing the asians. “

    Wow… are your reasoning powers really this dull? You really equate the institutional actions of National and State legislatures, financial institutions, real estate conglomerates, and powerful media organizations, to the actions of criminals during the course of a riot?

    O.K., so maybe you are this dull. I’ll explain – when people vote representatives into office, those representatives speak and act for the people who elected them. In the course of their term, they enact laws and policies, and then they must run for reelection. If the people vote them back into office, that means that the people agree with the way that they have been represented. This is what we call culpability. That is why laws are different than riots… do you get it now?

    Now, if certain Black persons, in the course of a lawless riot, attack Asian businesses, (among others) at what point were they elected to do this? Hmmm? Who empowered these criminals to be representatives of the Black community? At what point were their actions sanctioned, and condoned through reelection, or political advancement?

    Exactly… It’s a stupid example.

    “What you all don’t seem to realize is that the interests of asians and blacks are not in alignment.”

    They are not in misalignment either. Sure, there are different concerns in different communities, but we come together where there is common ground and common cause. Black people have been getting screwed by the White power structure for a long time, Asian people, have been feeling the pinch from that same White power structure. But you’re right… why would that give us anything in common?

  19. Asian Dude, damn, do you even have any ‘friends’ who aren’t white? You’re probably one of those token Asians who try to laugh along when everybody’s making \ching-chong\ noises and pulling their eyes back (is that you in that picture above?).

    King’s doing an awesome job debunking all your points (because he’s that awesome), but I have far less patience with the likes of you. You’re no different than the typical self-righteous white guy who jumps in blogs and forums attended by minorities just to tell them how there’s no racism, how their claims of racism are just lies, how blacks are their REAL enemies (and if they happen to be black, well, they’re their own worst enemies, right?). You guys are like cockroaches, constantly popping back in these discussions with your garbage no matter how many times you get stomped. The fact that you claim to be Asian makes you even more pathetic, exactly the type that I was talking about.

    Hate to burst your bubble, but like ‘Asian o Reason’, you don’t really have an opinion. You’re just parroting what’s been spoon fed to you by FOX news. Talking shit about your own people is one thing. Talking shit about others at the same time simply exposes your own brainwash and makes you an ignorant fool of the worse kind. Do humanity a favor and go get sterilized. My skin crawls at the thought of you misrepresenting the rest of us Asians.

  20. “This is a common fallacy: The idea that holding an opinion that someone else’s opinion is incorrect, is somehow taking away their right to have the opinion. It’s purely circular and fallacious reasoning.”
    -Obviously I was speaking figuratively. This seems to have gone completely over your head. Its quite obvious you’ve interpreted it completely out of context.

    “I think some of the incredulity came from the idea of an Asian guy taking the public stance that Asians are biologically inferior to Whites on many levels. It’s not impossible for an Asian guy to hold this opinion, but it’s not nearly as likely as a White person believing it. I personally don’t question his ethnicity, based just on that, but I get why some people might.”
    -Apparently you know little of HBD. Biologically inferior? No, biologically different? Definitely. Your paradigm is extremely narrow since you seem to only be able to grasp this concept as a strictly vertical hierachy. With people of your mentality its always us vs them, superior vs inferior, everything must be polarized and percieved only in terms of black and white never considering thousands of shades of grey.

    “More like an historic generalization. Do you know the difference? You also have to understand the nuance between comparing/critiquing *systems* rather than individuals. It is irrefutable that the legal, political, and economic *systems*, in the United States have historically given advantage to White persons, and have disadvantaged non-White persons. I mean, most White people don’t even dispute that fact. I’m not saying that things haven’t improved, and that progress hasn’t been made, but I’d say that the historic *generalization* still stands, to this date, due to social inertia. It takes time (sometimes generations) to reverse course on a ship this big.”
    -Again you are taking my arguments out of their intended context. I’m quite sure that the way I phrased it made the context clear enough, but if I didn’t make it sufficiently clear then I apologize for that. I was referring to contemporary america. I am not disagreeing with your links btw, here I was not sufficiently clear. Again I was referring to contemporary america. If anything in this PRESENT social context, whites bend over backwards to accomodate minorities. The present social context is the most relevant, and as for your canard about social inertia and whatever, I don’t buy that for a second.

    “Wow… are your reasoning powers really this dull? You really equate the institutional actions of National and State legislatures, financial institutions, real estate conglomerates, and powerful media organizations, to the actions of criminals during the course of a riot?”
    -Again I was referring to the present. National and State legislatures, financial institutions, real estate conglomerates, and powerful media organizations all exercised discrimination in the past, no one denies that. However in the present, they are firmly on your side and you know it. Whats with all the intentional misdirection?

    “O.K., so maybe you are this dull. I’ll explain – when people vote representatives into office, those representatives speak and act for the people who elected them. In the course of their term, they enact laws and policies, and then they must run for reelection. If the people vote them back into office, that means that the people agree with the way that they have been represented. This is what we call culpability. That is why laws are different than riots… do you get it now?”
    -The abrasive remarks get old pretty quickly pal. You could get your points across without the condescending, shitty attitude. Again i’ve covered all of this. You’ve take everything completely out of context. Your strongest arguments are also ones rendered obselete by the passage of time and emergence of a much different kind of society.

    “Now, if certain Black persons, in the course of a lawless riot, attack Asian businesses, (among others) at what point were they elected to do this? Hmmm? Who empowered these criminals to be representatives of the Black community? At what point were their actions sanctioned, and condoned through reelection, or political advancement?”
    -Again you are missing the point by using antiquated examples.. As for blacks rioting, I hold their community responsible, their actions are completely sanctioned through their dont snitch mentality as well as their well known aversion to working with the police.

    “They are not in misalignment either. Sure, there are different concerns in different communities, but we come together where there is common ground and common cause. Black people have been getting screwed by the White power structure for a long time, Asian people, have been feeling the pinch from that same White power structure. But you’re right… why would that give us anything in common?”
    -“Black people have been getting screwed by the White power structure for a long time, Asian people, have been feeling the pinch from that same White power structure”
    Obviously blacks have more to gain from your mode of thinking than asians do. I doubt that asians benefit at all. You’re exactly right about why that would give us anything in common. Contemporarily speaking, how are asians disenfranchised by the white power structure? I fail to see how we’re discriminated against institutionally. Also when you say that blacks have been getting screwed by the white power structure for a long time, it is my own observation that the only people screwing the blacks these days are themselves. Whites bend over backwards to help you all out these days, but a lot of the time I see that the help is squandered. Its fortunate that not all blacks see it as whitey keeping them down and instead strive to better themselves instead of always playing the role of the perpetual victim. The difference between you and me, is that you forever look at the past, while I prefer to look towards the future.

    I like how you only selectively addressed my points. Obviously there were quite a few things which you were unable to explain through your narrow lens of victimhood, white oppression, and ever present racism. Anyways, until next time, i eagerly await your next hackneyed spiel about social justice, or whatever it is you choose to be fixated on.

  21. I agree with you AD, in that black and “Asian” interests are not aligned. However, if you think whites are your friends you are delusional. In this world if you are not suspicious of people with power period you are naive. Whites will continue to milk everyone and everything they can simply because of this- they have the power to do so, and most non-East (and some Southeast) Asians in a similar position would more or less do the exact same thing they are now, which is lying, cheating, stealing, raping and killing to preserve the status quo. For cultural and other reasons.

    In America alone you might get away with calling anti-white sentiment insane or a conspiracy theory, but everywhere else (recently Iraq and Afghanistan) it’s just basic common sense. There are only a finite amount of resources (you name it) on this planet and whites have already stolen most of it, with no signs of even thinking about giving any of it back. They are not “our” friends outside of a personal scale in some cases. Even the most liberal of them- unless they actively undermine international white terrorism.

    So back to your point on the pan-minority nonsense, we can agree that we have mutual enemies. Historically speaking that’s enough reason to cooperate- but not get too close. And please don’t mention anything about how some of your white friends are great people, I’m sure they might be, but white people as a whole are slowly destroying, basically, the whole world.

  22. Forgive me for jumping in-

    “Apparently you know little of HBD. Biologically inferior? No, biologically different? Definitely. Your paradigm is extremely narrow since you seem to only be able to grasp this concept as a strictly vertical hierachy. With people of your mentality its always us vs them, superior vs inferior, everything must be polarized and percieved only in terms of black and white never considering thousands of shades of grey.”

    In essence, yes. He is subscribing to the white-led HBD nonsense. HBD contains some fact, but they retain much mythology in their movement despite their attempts to deny it. They assume “Asians” are one race- that is an instant fail. They also presume “Asians” are smaller and weaker, simply because they apparently think they (whites) have smaller brains. This is pure nonsense that has not been borne out by any study, unlike the East Asian/white IQ comparisons. It’s wishful thinking.

    “If anything in this PRESENT social context, whites bend over backwards to accomodate minorities. The present social context is the most relevant, and as for your canard about social inertia and whatever, I don’t buy that for a second.”

    They most certainly do not. They pay lip service and give tiny concessions for the sake of image. Oftentimes they are resorting to their old tricks- taking something which doesn’t belong to them (say, spots at universities or tax money. or certain areas of land) and giving it to someone else. They are playing god, or scoring votes, or inflating their egos. You name it- they are not genuinely helping “minorities”. If you really wanted to root out dysfunction in black communities, not that I give a damn, you’d invest into infrastructure, policing and create better laws. But that takes real time and effort, something whites are not willing to concede. Table scraps only, from someone else’s table.

    Again, whites are not your friends.

  23. Children will be children and all we can do is to give them the proper guidance and hope they turn out alright. And for real, some of ‘em honestly need more than any typical parent or teacher–or community member– is equipped to give. Just don’t let them bait you into chasing your own tails…

    Personally I don’t get it–it’s like holding your ass cheeks open with a sign that says “Kick Me.” An unfortunate symptom of willful ignorance…

    AOR, AD= Pwned

  24. Point of clarification: no one here hates White people. We all have very close White friends. Some of my greatest mentors are White. If I were against White people, I wouldn’t live in Portland. Hell, I probably wouldn’t live in the U.S. King is not making it an us vs. them paradigm; he’s simply pointing out lingering vestiges of institutional racism, which exist no matter how hard these HBD Kool-Aid drinkers try to cover their eyes. Everyone is welcome to his or her own viewpoints, but there’s no point in trying to ascribe views to other people that they simply don’t hold. Yes, I’m talking to you “Asian Dude.”

    This is why “Truth Speaker” and “Asian Dude” seem to be speaking a different language from everyone else. I (and King and I think most others) believe that black and Asian interests ARE aligned. Actually, I believe that White interests are aligned with us too. Unlike these HBD PUA nuthuggers, I see people as people rather than rats trying to fight over crumbs. If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.

    AOR has agreed to do the podcast. We’re going to shoot for next week. If he’s really just doing satire, then the entire joke is on you, Asian Dude. In either case, we’ll find out. Though I hate the views on his blog, I appreciate him stepping up to either defend or recant them.

    Asian Dude:

    “Apparently you know little of HBD. Biologically inferior? No, biologically different? Definitely. Your paradigm is extremely narrow since you seem to only be able to grasp this concept as a strictly vertical hierachy. With people of your mentality its always us vs them, superior vs inferior, everything must be polarized and percieved only in terms of black and white never considering thousands of shades of grey.”

    Why don’t you enlighten us? I refer you once again to that really sad post about the African American girl who supposedly couldn’t learn very well because of her race–and yes, her race was brought up in a racial context. That sure seems to be a hierarchy to me. If you’re claiming that one race can learn better than another, that’s a hierarchy; there ain’t no grey about it.

    “Contemporarily speaking, how are asians disenfranchised by the white power structure? I fail to see how we’re discriminated against institutionally.”

    Well, since this is primarily an activism, political, and literature blog, I encourage you to think about Asian American activism, politics, and literature. See what makes it into the media, and think about what doesn’t. Think about the movie 21, and how they took a historically Asian character and made him White. The Last Airbender. It happens over and over. Think about…

    …you know, forget it. You’ve got an internet connection and can do the work yourself. Start clicking away. Check out http://www.thefighting44s.com or some of my blog posts:
    http://www.bigwowo.com/favorite-blog-posts/

    As one of my White American mentors says, if you work for it yourself, you’ll appreciate it more.

  25. I will claim that races are aligned on a hierarchy in terms of IQ and the hierarchy is largely a result of evolutionary divergence. It cannot be significantly affected by any public policy outside of experimental eugenics. I am obstinate in my support of this fundamental tenet of HBD and for me.

    My description of my personal experience with tutoring was meant to highlight individual differences, not racial differences. Some people cannot learn some things because they are not very smart. And again, smart is relative, you and I probably can’t learn certain things because we are not smart enough for them. The ability curve is diverse. I made no mention that “blackness” was the cause of the inability to learn. Do I believe it to be connected? Quite honestly, yes, but again, my point was to highlight an individual difference, not a sweeping group difference. Additionally, my point in that particular post was on the value of all human beings regardless of their intellectual capability. You are welcome to disagree with me here, if you believe that human being’s value lie in their intellectual ability. Your opinion of me as an individual has led you to make false assumptions about my positions. I urge you to read my posts in a more objective and less emotional manner.

    J, you live in Portland, a city with lots of SWPLs. Are you an Asian SWPL? I used to be one, but then found out how silly it was, but I still have a number of SWPL habits that I just can’t seem to shake. At least I can see the hypocrisy of my logic and laugh about it. SWPLs love Asian girls (#11), so I’d imagine there would be some racial SWPlian conflict there. Maybe you are against white people, but not the right-type- of-white- person that is likely to reside in Portland, but the wrong-type-of-white-person like Sarah Palin. Living in Portland could also be a signal for a strong disliking of NAMs. Just a thought.

    My blog consists of a mix of the satirical and the serious. Distinguishing between the two is the job of the reader.

    For the record, I’m not a big fan of group identity politics.

  26. “-Obviously I was speaking figuratively. This seems to have gone completely over your head. Its quite obvious you’ve interpreted it completely out of context.”

    Hahaha!! Nice try, but there’s really nothing tall enough in your statements to go over my head. Nobody said that AOR didn’t have a right to an opinion but you. The classic “straw man” argument — Our issue was with said opinions, not his right to have them.

    “-Obviously I was speaking figuratively
    I think you mean foolishly.

    “-Apparently you know little of HBD. Biologically inferior? No, biologically different? Definitely. Your paradigm is extremely narrow since you seem to only be able to grasp this concept as a strictly vertical hierarchy.”

    Again, nice try, but the little “differences” (across the ethnic gamut) that you’re referring to consist of things like athleticism, cognitive capacity, aggressiveness, replication value, adaptability, and social value. Your precious HBD mumbo jumbo is basically deterministic racial evolution, and evolution always comes down, in the end, to the fit and the dead. No, there are quite serious hierarchical implications to the “differences” you’re trying to so neatly gloss over.

    “-Again you are taking my arguments out of their intended context. I’m quite sure that the way I phrased it made the context clear enough, but if I didn’t make it sufficiently clear then I apologize for that.

    Well, actually I’m not. But the real problem is that you think that you’re two or three times more intelligent than you really are. And therefore you believe that you’re making these excellent points, when you’re really talking yourself into circles and making every point a case of “No, you misunderstood my brilliance… or that’s out of context… or I obviously didn’t mean that literally…”

    “Again I was referring to contemporary america. If anything in this PRESENT social context, whites bend over backwards to acomodate minorities. The present social context is the most relevant, and as for your canard about social inertia and whatever, I don’t buy that for a second.”

    I think Truth Speaker set you right on his comment on this point. But let me just add that all prejudice is not equal. Just because there is markedly less KKK style racism, doesn’t mean that Whites are “bending over backward” to accommodate minorities. I agree that tremendous progress has been made, but it is not quite so easy to totally erase the years of White supremacy that permeates American society to one degree or another. So, just because there are more minorities on TV, and the movies, and just because we have a mixed-race President, and just because Oprah is rich, doesn’t mean that all of the bad old foundations have been dug up and removed.

    We should all applaud the progress that has been made, but there are still many residual attitudes, stereotypes, assumptions, and misconceptions that fall under the umbrella of social inertia, that yet are to be overcome. If you really want to get an idea how different your actions may be construed TODAY, based upon your skin color have a look.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrOSL85ZMck

    “As for blacks rioting, I hold their community responsible, their actions are completely sanctioned through their dont snitch mentality as well as their well known aversion to working with the police.”

    Oh yes… because we ALL think like that, down at the “Black Man Club!” Yes, we ALL voted in the “no snitch” policy back in the early 1970’s. The vote was 41 million to 1. You must really know Black people!!! How about the “no snitch” policy in Triad controlled Asian neighborhoods? How about the “no snitch” policy, in Mexican drug gang neighborhoods? How about the “no snitch” policy in the White Biker meth-gang neighborhoods? Why the hell do you think people have a no snitch policy in the first place? They’re usually scared to death of reprisals.

    But, of course, that’s the case in every ghetto/barrio/meth-hood areas in every culture. It just so happens that you’re stupid enough to think that most Black people, live in a ghetto. Are you really this obtuse???

    “Contemporarily speaking, how are asians disenfranchised by the white power structure? I fail to see how we’re discriminated against institutionally. “

    WHAT? Are you kidding me?

  27. Asian of Reason,

    I am looking forward to our podcast, but I think a question people will want to know is this:

    Why do you keep flip-flopping?

    AOR 1.0: “Hey, I’m totally serious. This is my belief and opinion. I believe what I believe about the races. If you don’t like it, tough.”

    AOR 2.0: “Hey, I’m just joking. You people need to chill and stop taking things so seriously. It’s satire, guys.”

    AOR 3.0: “Actually, I’m joking about some things and I’m serious about other things. I actually do believe that her blackness was connected with that girl’s inability to learn. It’s your job to figure out when I’m being serious and when I’m not.”

    I have no idea what SWPL is. I would guess “Stuff White People Like” based on that #11 thing, but then “SWPL Asian” would make no sense.

  28. HBD is just white supremacy for neckbeard weirdos. It’s not different from mainstream white racism really. HBD just puts into words, “biotruthy” ridiculous words, what whites feel in society. Both establish a hierarchy for the races with “roles” for each except for whites who are in the middle. “Average” ” Normal.” Like Goldilocks and Three Bears those narsty non-whites are too hot or too cold but white ass baby bear is “just right.” It’s pretty pathetic when you think about how they use to act. Back in the day the white man would stand out in the frontier sans pants, his pink micro-wiener glistening in the African sun and nestled in his wrangly pubes like the baby Jesus in the manger. The Savannah breeze would tussle his muttonchops and a chortle would ejaculate from his crooked maw, mingling with the birdsong. Armed only with a musket and no musketball, surrounded by “darkies,” and yet he is without a care in the world! For his butt muffins smelled of the finest potpourri, as they burst forth from his divine anus emitting the sound of the giggles of retarded children.

    But now those days are over. Perfection is a narrow pedestal to stand on. Fuck up once and off you go! Mediocrity is much more comfortable. It’s certainly more believable. And you’re still on “top” just as long as overall everyone else is worse than you are. Make it plausible by giving them advantages “balanced” by crippling disadvantages that undermine their very existence! Oh Black man! How strong and mighty thewed you are! Too bad you’re a rapacious moron! Hohoho! Oh Asian man! Your Oriental cerebellum is without compare! Too bad you are a small penised hobgoblin! Hardy har har! Shucks! that’s how the cookie crumbles coloreds! It’s all in this scienmajific book I wrote with my own shit. Afterall being White and boring as boring can regular old me be I’m clearly the impartial party here. Now if you’ll excuse me I have an Anime convention to attend to. Those Asian girls aren’t going to put the Rohypnol in their snapples themselves! :Flies away on a magical gay hippo:

    Does that sound like an “Alpha male?” For them what is a Black man, funny and kind; compassionate and intelligent. What is an Asian man, strong and brave: a romantic, an excellent lover. What is reality? It’s competition. It’s a fair fight. Does an “Alpha Male” run from a fair fight? A creature so cowardly, so pathetic they rig the game and ruin lives is not an Alpha Male. It’s not a Beta male. To be either you have to be a man first.

  29. Hahahaha ^^

    And I wouldn’t say I hate whites… that’s not quite it. They are largely our enemies, and competitors, thanks to their short-sightedness and hateful nature, broadly speaking, as a people and civilization- but I don’t hate every white person on the planet.

  30. “-Obviously I was speaking figuratively. This seems to have gone completely over your head. Its quite obvious you’ve interpreted it completely out of context.”

    Hahaha!! Nice try, but there’s really nothing tall enough in your statements to go over my head. Nobody said that AOR didn’t have a right to an opinion but you. The classic “straw man” argument — Our issue was with said opinions, not his right to have them.

    “-Obviously I was speaking figuratively
    I think you mean foolishly.

    You don’t get it, King. He was satirizing people who feel their right to an opinion is being denied when the arguments behind it are debunked.

  31. “You don’t get it, King. He was satirizing people who feel their right to an opinion is being denied when the arguments behind it are debunked.”

    Yeah, Notty, it must be over my head :-)

    I love how these guys constantly try to use the “satire excuse” to characterize their unpopular viewpoints.

    Satire is defined as:
    The use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.

    But these guys are repeating HBD hogwash chapter and verse, right out of the manual. When exactly does the ridicule, the denunciation, and derision part come in?

    It’s like breaking down Mein Kampf into blog size morsels, and posting them in series on the web and saying “Oh no, it’s not racism, it’s satire!!!”

    Well Why is it satire?
    “Because it’s so over the top!!”
    So Hitler was… jus kidding?
    “No, but we are!!”
    But you’re just posting his words verbatim.
    “We know, that’s the joke!”

  32. I just got caught up to speed here—-this is ridiculous. Jaehwan, you seem to be awfully patient and willing to engage in this dialog with AOR, but quite honestly, I’m not going to waste my time on people who hold extremist/racist views. It’s like arguing with a dedicated Marxist or libertarian: you’re not going to get anywhere. But go on and expose the insanity anyway.

    @King, nice going. I think you schooled AOR and helped expose his muddled thinking. Once he gets called out, all of a sudden, it’s “oh, lighten up; it’s just satire”. What bullshit. It’s just pure sophistry.

    What’s interesting is seeing how lacking in understanding or empathy AOR seems to have re: the tutoring session with the young black school girl. Like it’s never occurred that maybe she didn’t have the greatest advantages in life to have her intellect developed unfettered by her environment? You know, maybe she might have been exposed to lead paint or lead in the water when growing up? Or that maybe she didn’t have the best nutrition as a kid growing up? Instead, he dismissively labels her as stupid. Which may be the case—the sun doesn’t always shine on everyone. But that doesn’t mean she can’t learn anything. Sounds to me like someone did a lousy job of being a tutor.

  33. I hear you, Mojo.

    I mean, the Black girl who needed tutoring may have come from an entire school district that was behind scholastically. Or absent that, from a family that had little experience with academics. But, the very fact that she was there, asking to be tutored, says that at least there was some will to learn.

    But this girl lucked out, because she just so happened to get assigned a tutor who had been filling his skull with HBD nonsense. So, instead of thinking that all she needed was perhaps some specialized attention, to try and slowly bring her up to grade level, she got someone who figured that she was just genetically stupid.

    Instead of tutoring her, he simply accepted her apparent biologically inferiority, and decided that being her friend (rather than her tutor) was the best he could do.
    I wonder if her parents knew that their daughter had been written off, and that the tutor she was seeing was now just chatting with her rather than challenging her?

    This is the face of “soft racism.” Just because you’re not wearing a white hood, and screaming racial epithets, doesn’t mean that you’re not a racist on other levels.

    This is the kind of racism that goes over Asian Guy’s head:

    -The tutor, who gives up on you much sooner because you’re a certain race.
    -The supervisor, who doesn’t give you the same chance to advance as the White guys.
    -The teacher who ignores certain colored hands, when White hands are raised.
    -The institution that has certain unspoken policies about how far certain people can go.

    All of this goes unnoticed by Asian Guy because Will Smith is a movie star.

  34. King, I must insist that I did not factor race into the account when I made that particular observation about someones abilities. It was an about an individual who happened to be black. It was an individual assessment that I made. Whether I am right or wrong about the intellectual limitations of any certain individual is a valid concern. I do not hold an optimistic view regarding the expression of human abilities. I don’t think that people can do anything they put their minds to. I am not that naive. This incident happened well before the time I knew anything about HBD. I didn’t “give up” or “blame it on race”, I merely noted the hopelessness of the situation given the time constraints. Why do you insist on linking the concepts of inferiority and superiority with academic achievement?

    I am trying to hold a mature conservation here, but the name-calling present in this thread is borderline ridicilous.

  35. “King, I must insist that I did not factor race into the account when I made that particular observation about someones abilities. It was an about an individual who happened to be black. It was an individual assessment that I made.”

    O.K., so in this particular case, you say it was an individual assessment. Even though HBD theory places Blacks (as a race) as… well, let’s just call it cognitively challenged? I mean, they’re good at sports, and dancing, and they have cool music, but when it comes down to it, they’re not all that smart (in the S.A.T. score sense of the word.) This is where their kind fits into the biologically diverse niche of greater humanity.

    Does this misrepresent your views?
    If so please correct my statements.

  36. You highlight some group differences that I believe have their basis in genetics. But I’ll tell you that while group differences are interesting, and certainly useful for analyzing a number of social situations, individual differences are far more interesting to me. HBDers like to hammer the group differences idea because current political orthodoxy is ideologically affixed on the notion that all groups are the same, and all differences in outcome between any groups, whether it be between males and females, blacks and whites, etc, are completely the result of discrimination. I envision a society where individuals, not groups, are emphasized. Individuals should not be judged on the basis of group membership. However, there is a crucial paradox that undermines the individualist perspective that many HBDers and conservative intellectuals have tried to emphasize. Group identity is important for many people, so important that it often supersedes individual identity, especially for more collectively orientated cultures and peoples, such as East Asians, though it does affect all groups to some degrees. I am somewhat convinced that this has both its roots in genetics and in culture. The more that groups are emphasized, the more potential for conflict there is. I’ve been exploring this issue and would definitely welcome everyones input on the issue.

  37. Well, let’s be honest…the short answer to my question is “yes.”

    In your mind, things like lower national S.A.T. scores, lower college attendance, and lower incomes, among Blacks are the direct result of their genetic cognitive inferiority. Now, I know they’re nice people, and hey, they can play basketball and football, but in general, they are genetically predisposed to be uh… well… a little dumber than some other races, right?

    There are always those individual outliers, but in the mean, that’s kind of what it comes down to. For instance, I graduated from college with fairly decent grades, so I suppose, that I’m a bit of a genetic exception? Just like an extraverted Asian guy who dates White women would be, Right?

  38. AOR:

    “I am trying to hold a mature conservation here, but the name-calling present in this thread is borderline ridicilous.”

    I’m not seeing any “name-calling.” What did King call you? Sure, he’s attacking your views, or what he thinks are your views, but that’s part of what a discussion is. Also, a big part of the problem is that we don’t know your views based on the flip-flopping that I mentioned. He’s just trying to understand (as am I) your views. We can sit here and pretend to agree on everything, but you already know that we probably don’t.

    Let’s be on the same side for a second. Instead of taking his questions personally, realize that it should be acceptable to question your views. Think of it as an opportunity to state your positions. I think most of us think you really believe in HBD and genetic differences based on race, but we’re not really sure because of the aforementioned flip-flopping.

    We really do want to know what you believe.

    King:
    “There are always those individual outliers, but in the mean, that’s kind of what it comes down to. For instance, I graduated from college with fairly decent grades, so I suppose, that I’m a bit of a genetic exception? Just like an extraverted Asian guy who dates White women would be, Right?”

    Or an Asian guy who’s 6’1 and athletic.

    By the way, I know a few of the Asian guys from the 44s. Almost all of them are 5’11 and above (which I think is above average compared with the American population). So among Asians in starving countries, I’m a tall outlier. Among Asians in general, I’m an average outlier (or would I be an outlier? Hmm…guess I”m just like the rest of them…). Among Asian guys on the internet, I could be in a stage version of Star Wars and play an Ewok. :)

  39. “Among Asian guys on the internet, I could be in a stage version of Star Wars and play an Ewok.”

    Haha, Ewok…

  40. @jaehwan

    Don’t knock Ewoks!
    They are loyal and have the big heart to take on evil empires, even though they are disadvantaged in terms of size and technology.

    Jaehwan and mt, my respect for you guys have dived because you took a swipe at my beloved Ewoks. Leave my Ewoks alone!

  41. @King

    Thanks King, that made my day!
    Seriously, why is their hate towards the Ewoks? (Though to be honest, my love for them started from seeing all the hate towards them lol)

  42. I’m still not seeing what you people find so confusing about my writing. Satire can be used as a rhetorical device for reflecting on uncomfortable truths. I’m not “flip-flopping” between joking and seriousness, my writing is meant to hover on the edge of the two ideas, where I believe it is most effective. I think HBD is true. Most of you don’t. In that case then, black people are just as smart as yellow people who are in turn just as dumb as white people. It’s all about culture. If only we could import Confucian culture to black urban societies then all gaps would disappear. If only we could learn about what makes black people from the ghetto jump so high and then apply this to Chinese kids in China then all athletic performance gaps would disappear. I’m sure the Chinese government would be really interested in this! It is a moral imperative to make all racial groups the same. Well, the exception being that it’s OK for white people to be worse, since they are evil oppressors who deserve our scorn.

    There are no such thing as genetic limitations. If I was given enough calcium when I was younger, I could have been 7ft tall. The reason I’m not as good as math as Terence Tao is because I wasn’t exposed to the correct education. Genetics has NOTHING to with it. We are all blank slates. John Locke even said that people are tabula rasa, so he must be onto something.

  43. N and King,

    Look, women would rather date a Wookie like Chewbacca rather than an Ewok. It’s HBD, man, and I think you need to accept it and celebrate human biodiversity…before the Ewoks get bred out of existence, of course. I happen to be an Ewok at heart, but I also happen to be a 6’1 athletic Ewok at heart, so nothing I say about Ewoks applies to me personally.

    Asian of Reason,

    This is why the very first question in our podcast–not just our podcast, but any podcast no matter where you go–is “Who are you and what are you about?” After four or five posts, you’ve FINALLY answered the question by insinuating through sarcasm that you really do think that black people are dumber. And even then, you’ve answered it through sarcasm.

    Through reading your blog, I think just about ALL of us knew from the get-go that you really felt this way. We knew your blog wasn’t satire, which was why I posted the original post in the first place. But then you claimed satire, and then…well, therein lies the confusion.

    As for the debate:

    In any podcast or book or essay, there are three questions that people want to know:

    1. Who is speaking and what does he/she stand for (and does this person have credibility)
    2. What ideas does this person want to share with me today
    3. What are the social/political implications that come with this new information

    There’s no reason to raise any objection against this format. We’ve had politicians, artists, other bloggers, businesspeople, activists, activists, men, women, Asians, and White people on this show, and you are the very first person to ever question the format.

    Honestly, I don’t think it’s even specific to the bigWOWO podcast: I think it’s the only format that anyone uses. Who you are and what you stand for is a question that needs to be answered. If you present it in an effective manner, it should help your position. I’ve promised to protect your anonymity, but the audience is at least going to want to hear FROM YOU what your ideas are and what you stand for.

  44. \I’m not “flip-flopping” between joking and seriousness, my writing is meant to hover on the edge of the two ideas, where I believe it is most effective.\

    Right, just like humor is most effective when a comedian reads headlines directly out of the newspaper, without any comment, and his audience keeps asking, \Is this part the joke—has he gotten to the joke part yet?\

    I’m sorry to be the one to tell you, but that’s not the way satire works (at the edges or seriousness) in order for it to BE SATIRE it has to be obvious; in fact, even overdone. Try watching Saturday Night Live if you need examples.

    \In that case then, black people are just as smart as yellow people who are in turn just as dumb as white people. It’s all about culture.\

    Culture, environment, value perception, resource access, wealth, nutrition, and necessity.

    It doesn’t necessarily mean that every group IS collectively as smart (or dumb) as the other, at any one point in time. It just means that there are not \genetic limitations\ on their potential to be smart (or dumb) —either as groups, or individuals.

    \If only we could import Confucian culture to black urban societies then all gaps would disappear.\

    It’s not a single philosophy that makes the difference, but a set of complex beliefs and values that span across a society. Ideas have consequences, and patterns of ideas about what is important, and who is valuable in a society, shape the way that any given populations responds to those collective expectations.

    It’s not about skin color, and often, even relatively small adjustments in social expectation can make big differences in the success of a given population. For example, you have the case of West Indian/Caribbean Blacks, who are from the same genetic pool as American Blacks (just dropped off at a different stop by the slave vessel) Yet, there is a marked difference in their relative success rates in American society.

    \In the past twenty years, the number of West Indians in America has exploded. There are now half a million in the New York area alone and, despite their recent arrival, they make substantially more money than American blacks. They live in better neighborhoods. Their families are stronger. In the New York area, in fact, West Indians fare about as well as Chinese and Korean immigrants.\
    Malcolm Gladwell, New Yorker Article, Black Like Them

    \ If only we could learn about what makes black people from the ghetto jump so high and then apply this to Chinese kids in China then all athletic performance gaps would disappear.\ (I think you have a bit of a fetish for always associating black people with the ghetto.)

    Well, when you think about it, the Chinese HAVE done a lot of looking around the world, and have very dramatically advanced their standing, and even taken the lead in many areas of Olympic competition where they were not even contenders before. Haven’t you been watching? And yet, teams that were once dominant (Like the Russians) are performing much worse in areas where they used to dominate. Do you think that these changes in performance are due to genetics?

    \It is a moral imperative to make all racial groups the same. Well, the exception being that it’s OK for white people to be worse, since they are evil oppressors who deserve our scorn.\

    So this really all about defending the poor and defenseless White man? Yes, everybody has been unfairly dog piling onto Whitey for all of these years… Geez, I wouldn’t want to be White! Much better to be Vietnamese, or Latino, or Native American!

    Besides, your argument is yet another straw man. I’m not saying that all \races\ are the same, I’m just saying that their intelligence, customs, and social abilities, are not dictated by their genetics.

  45. “It doesn’t necessarily mean that every group IS collectively as smart (or dumb) as the other, at any one point in time. It just means that there are not \genetic limitations\ on their potential to be smart (or dumb) —either as groups, or individuals.”

    Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are essentially taking is the blank slate position, individual and group differences in intelligence are 100% a result of the environment, and not related to genes in any way at all. I encourage you to read “The Blank Slate” by Steven Pinker for a better understanding of why this view is false (for the record, he doesn’t believe that the current W/B gap is due to genetics, while I do). There is a mountain of evidence against the blank slate. My view is that there is a continuous interaction between genes and the environment that work together to produce individual and group differences. The majority of indirect evidence points to genetics as a prime cause of the current B/W gap.

    The dominance of West African sprinters in the short sprints suggests a genetic component in athletic performance. There has only been one (and this is only happened a few months ago) non West African sprinter to break 10s in the 100m dash. I’m sure our government in China has been trying to better their sprinters through all environmental means possible, but I don’t put much hope into this. Environmental inputs can significantly affect performance in many areas of life. I’m not doubting that.

    West Indian success in America has been a subject that has fascinated me. My evaluation of the evidence suggests that there is selective migration occurring which contributes to the differential success rates between immigrant blacks and native blacks. Is it the only reason? No, I think culture plays a big part here as well. Comparative studies of IQ tests around the world have not shown that blacks residing in Caribbean countries are any smarter than any other blacks. Current African-American culture in the U.S does hold African-Americans back to a degree. Reducing complex situations into absolute functions of the environment or of genetics is misguided. I will admit that I sometimes place too much focus on the importance of genetics in any social analysis. But I think it would be a mistake to ignore genetics as a potential player in social analysis.

    I will absolutely not accept the view that intelligence, customs, and social abilities have NOTHING to do with genetics. It does. The question now becomes, to what extent do genetics play their part and to what extent does the environment affect performance?

  46. “Correct me if I am wrong, but what you are essentially taking is the blank slate position, individual and group differences in intelligence are 100% a result of the environment, and not related to genes in any way at all.”

    O.K., then I’ll correct you. No, I’m not referring to the tabula rasa theory. I believe that you have inherited certain traits (genetically) from your parents that I have not inherited from my parents, and vice versa. Now, when I say that you have inherited certain traits, you understand that I am referring to a phenotypical variation — that’s to say, that we share the same human genome, but that certain traits are activated in your DNA that may not be activated in mine (& vice versa). However, we both possess these genetic traits within our DNA coding.

    So, for instance, an Andean Quechua Indian will be born with a higher level of hemoglobin in his blood, larger cardio and pulmonary mass and capacity, and an increased number of blood vessels in his hands and feet than you or I. In other words, he will inherit the adaptive traits necessary for negotiating higher elevation, lower oxygen levels, and colder weather. Perhaps they will invent an Olympic sport in which his larger than normal lungs, his larger heart, compact physique, and increased red blood cell count will benefit him. However, if I moved to the Andes and founded my own village at 12,000 feet above sea level, after some generations, my Black descendants would show similar kinds of adaptation. It’s not racial genetics, it’s adaptive genetics.

    “The dominance of West African sprinters in the short sprints suggests a genetic component in athletic performance.”

    Yes, I agree, but the genetics in question are not broad RACIAL genetics. It may be correct to say that, at this point in time, the fastest sprinters have been of West Africans stock, but it is not necessarily correct to say that a general trait of West African people is that they are fast sprinters. Do you understand the difference between those two statements?

    One statement suggests that a sub group of fastest sprinters comes from the West African Region.

    The other statement assumes that this means that therefore, all the people in West Africa tend to be faster sprinters than people elsewhere. That may not be true at all.

    Add to that, there are many West Africans who, in recent years have become well known for their long distance running. And if you look at these distance runners and compare them to the sprinters, they are polar opposites anatomically. See?

    Long Distance
    http://www.kenya-advisor.com/images/paul-tergat-kenyan-runner.jpg
    Sprinter
    http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/tim_layden/08/24/track.drugs/p1_gatlin_0824.jpg

    So which anatomical stereotype should be applied to West Africans? Are they muscular short sprinters, or are they lean long distance runners? The answer is that although both runners are Black, and both are from West Africans, BOTH are totally different body types, but they exist side by side. Neither anatomy is a racial trait.

    For all we know, West African people, *on average*, may be slower runners than Eskimos, once you cut out the comparatively small group of elite athletes.

    “I will absolutely not accept the view that intelligence, customs, and social abilities have NOTHING to do with genetics.”

    O.K. then please provide the genetic data. Which genes *specifically* have been identified that control intelligence between ethnicities? Where are the genes that control customs, and beliefs, and religion? Where is the math gene? If this is true genetics than give us the genetic research that backs up your intractable position.

    Here’s the website, knock yourself out.
    http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/home.shtml

  47. The majority of indirect evidence points to genetics as a prime cause of the current B/W gap.

    Uh. Yeah–since it’s So indirect, that’s probably why the idea is not regarded with more respect…

    The question now becomes, to what extent do genetics play their part and to what extent does the environment affect performance?

    Yes, indeed it is a weighty question. So weighty, in fact, that it has been debated for somewhere around 2410 years (give or take a few). That idea \became\ a topic in Western thought with Plato. The modern form of Dualism known as the \nature/nurture\ contrast –which is what you are talking about when you discuss genetics vs environment–popped up around 450 years ago.

    Nurture vs Nature was the precursor to the HBD issue, and with the help of Descartes, found that a major difference between animals and humans was the soul. Since animals could not be proven to have a soul, that must mean they did not have one. Since they had no souls, though they were known to have nerves and nervous systems, animals could feel no pain. And since animals could feel no pain they were obviously no different than a cuckoo clock striking the hour, which therefore meant that it was okay to dissect them alive.

    And if you don’t already know the historical examples, then use your imagination to discover what this kind of thinking might lead people to justify.

  48. I find the hive mind mentality here quite disturbing. Sans AOR there is not a single original opinion here, you all say what you think you’re supposed to say, and think what you think you’re supposed to think regardless of whether or not its correct. It seems like most of the arguments here are either emotively/subjectively based, or about blaming whites. Its funny how nobody attempts to argue against the science of HBD, you simply call it wrong, or misguided without a second thought and for some reason that should be sufficient to dismiss it out of hand. I know how galileo must have felt.

    @ Leon

    “Asian Dude, damn, do you even have any ‘friends’ who aren’t white? You’re probably one of those token Asians who try to laugh along when everybody’s making \ching-chong\ noises and pulling their eyes back (is that you in that picture above?)”
    -What a juvenile mindset. I don’t know what kind of people you’re used to dealing with but the people I call my friends don’t really think much about race. I don’t have “white” friends, I have friends who happen to be white. Unlike you, race does not play a large part in my criteria for friendship. However just FYI my friends are mainly hispanic and white, and a few that are black or asian.

    “Kings doing an awesome job debunking all your points (because he’s that awesome)”
    -He hasn’t debunked anything, he’s an ideologue nothing more and nothing less. He’s said very little of actual substance. Just a bunch of verbal clawing.

    “but I have far less patience with the likes of you. You’re no different than the typical self-righteous white guy…”
    -Self righteous eh? Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black…

    “Hate to burst your bubble, but like ‘Asian o Reason’, you don’t really have an opinion. You’re just parroting what’s been spoon fed to you by FOX news. Talking shit about your own people is one thing. Talking shit about others at the same time simply exposes your own brainwash and makes you an ignorant fool of the worse kind. Do humanity a favor and go get sterilized. My skin crawls at the thought of you misrepresenting the rest of us Asians.”
    -Sorry I don’t watch FOX news, that’s a rather lame and cliched attempt to try to generalize and demean your opposition. Here’s in little advice, don’t bother watching a damn thing on TV. Its all trash. As for talking shit about people…you must have a pretty low threshold for what you consider talking shit. What you will one day find, is that it is not me that is the brainwashed one but rather it is you. Please take the effort to educate yourself on all sides of the debate. My skin crawls at the thought of you making all asian people look like tools and non-thinking sheeple. (Actually just kidding about that, unlike you I don’t define myself solely by my race. I prefer to be an individual first.)

    @ Truth Speaker

    “However, if you think whites are your friends you are delusional.”
    -This statement in and of itself smacks of delusion. You are basically saying that whites are incapable of individual thought and for some mysterious reason must all align to a universal anti-minority agenda. You’re right about one thing, I don’t “think” whites (or at least some people who happen to be white) are my friends, I KNOW they are.

    “In America alone you might get away with calling anti-white sentiment insane or a conspiracy theory, but everywhere else (recently Iraq and Afghanistan) it’s just basic common sense.”
    -Can you substantiate that? Or is that just baseless conjecture? I highly doubt its just “basic common sense” just as I highly doubt that you can back that statement up.

    “So back to your point on the pan-minority nonsense, we can agree that we have mutual enemies. Historically speaking that’s enough reason to cooperate- but not get too close. And please don’t mention anything about how some of your white friends are great people, I’m sure they might be, but white people as a whole are slowly destroying, basically, the whole world.”
    -In the interests of objectivty, the same whites that you claim are slowly destroying the world also created the language you speak, the computer you’re using, and the internet you are using to share your opinions. Ironic huh?

    “In essence, yes. He is subscribing to the white-led HBD nonsense.”
    -http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434
    White led indeed.

    “There are only a finite amount of resources (you name it) on this planet and whites have already stolen most of it, with no signs of even thinking about giving any of it back. They are not “our” friends outside of a personal scale in some cases. Even the most liberal of them- unless they actively undermine international white terrorism.”
    -Uh huh, so what have you got to say about china? Gonna be against them too? They are buying up and accumulating natural resources at a dizzying rate. Furthermore, is anybody here aware of china’s colonization of africa? The very fact which pretty much destroys your imaginary paradigm of global struggle between whites and non-whites.

    “They most certainly do not. They pay lip service and give tiny concessions for the sake of image. Oftentimes they are resorting to their old tricks- taking something which doesn’t belong to them (say, spots at universities or tax money. or certain areas of land) and giving it to someone else. They are playing god, or scoring votes, or inflating their egos. You name it- they are not genuinely helping “minorities”.
    -You do know that it was white people that got obama into office. 44% of white voters voted for him. Whether or not you like obama I think that says a lot about the mentality of white people towards minorities, and blacks for that matter.

    “If you really wanted to root out dysfunction in black communities, not that I give a damn, you’d invest into infrastructure, policing and create better laws. But that takes real time and effort, something whites are not willing to concede. Table scraps only, from someone else’s table.”
    -I take it you have a love/hate relationship with whites? Probably because of the fact that you need them more than you’d like to admit. I find it despicable that you badmouth and villainize whites yet at the same time you expect that whites should have to help your communities. Instead of taking scraps from someone’s table period why don’t you just cook your own damn food? However if you insist on fighting over “scraps” then you should heed this proverb “You shouldn’t bite the hand that feeds you.” You have no shame, and no integrity. If you did then you would sever all contact with whites and refuse any and all of their resources. Or, you would change your tune and admit that maybe the situation is a little more complex than just “white oppression.” You are also implying that blacks are unable to pull themselves up and need whites to do it for them, you’re pathetic.

    “Again, whites are not your friends.”
    -Yes, but neither are all blacks or all asians for that matter. While I recognize racial differences, I ultimately prefer to think of people as individuals first, not one, singular, monolithic racial collective. Which is what you seem to enjoy doing.

    @ ricecakerabbit
    -I fail to see how i’ve been pwned. Nobody has yet framed an argument of any substance, just a bunch of misdirection and rhetoric. Enjoy being a pawn for the black agenda. Which as I said before, you will reap little benefit from. Also, don’t forget who started all this. Its not like I came on here randomly and started shit. It was bigwowo who decided he wanted to harangue some random person on the internet over views which he didn’t agree with. That’s pretty sad.

    @jaehwan
    “Point of clarification: no one here hates White people.”
    -You’re lying through your teeth. You don’t speak for everybody here, What I’ve seen so far is the exact opposite of what you’re saying.

    “We all have very close White friends. Some of my greatest mentors are White. If I were against White people, I wouldn’t live in Portland. Hell, I probably wouldn’t live in the U.S.”
    -Now you’re just being disingenuous. I imagine that most of your resentment against whites is probably because some white girl rejected you lmao.

    “King is not making it an us vs. them paradigm”
    -Yes he is. Remember this?

    “1) White People
    _______________
    2) Everybody Else”

    “he’s simply pointing out lingering vestiges of institutional racism, which exist no matter how hard these HBD Kool-Aid drinkers try to cover their eyes.”
    -I never said institutional racism doesn’t exist. But at the same time I highly doubt it exists to the degree which you all would like to pretend it does. Believing in HBD and believing that institutional racism may exist are not mutually exclusive. Of course to an intellectual giant such as yourself, you would not be able to grasp this concept. For you, everything must be yes or no, black and white. This shows the depth and complexity of your thinking. I imagine you’re either dumb or intellectually lazy. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re intellectually lazy.

    “Everyone is welcome to his or her own viewpoints, but there’s no point in trying to ascribe views to other people that they simply don’t hold. Yes, I’m talking to you “Asian Dude.””
    -Speak for yourself. And I validly gauged the situation regarding king’s views, as summed up by his helpful little diagram that he made for us earlier. Yes, I’m speaking to you Jaehwan. You make koreans look like nebbish sycophants. Have you no honor? Or do you enjoy wallowing in your servile disingenuity?

    “I (and King and I think most others) believe that black and Asian interests ARE aligned.”
    -In the spirit of honest inquiry, would you please tell me why you believe this is so? What concrete interests do blacks and asians share? I mean beyond the nebulous, and ideologically charged.

    “Unlike these HBD PUA nuthuggers, I see people as people rather than rats trying to fight over crumbs.”
    -lol, PUA? Please. You on the other hand would be a perfect candidate for it. Apparently you may already engage in some form as PUA as evidence by your patronage of the site Alpha Asian. http://alpha-asian.blogspot.com/2010/09/interview-with-film-producer-teddy-zee.html. As for seeing people as people, I suppose thats why you have an entire blog devoted to talking about the asian race. Obviously race is very important to you. In any case, good luck on being an “Alpha Asian Male”. Maybe one day you’ll finally get that white girl you’ve always dreamed about.

    “If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.”
    -This is a bunch of fluffy, feel good bullshit and you know it. Furthermore, what do you define as equal opportunities? Asians DO have equal opportunities, I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

    “AOR has agreed to do the podcast. We’re going to shoot for next week. If he’s really just doing satire, then the entire joke is on you, Asian Dude. In either case, we’ll find out. Though I hate the views on his blog, I appreciate him stepping up to either defend or recant them.”
    -More juvenile blather. Defend or recant his views? What are you, the inquisition?

    “Why don’t you enlighten us? I refer you once again to that really sad post about the African American girl who supposedly couldn’t learn very well because of her race–and yes, her race was brought up in a racial context. That sure seems to be a hierarchy to me. If you’re claiming that one race can learn better than another, that’s a hierarchy; there ain’t no grey about it.”
    -I never said a hierachy didn’t exist. Stop twisting the argument around. I said a hierachy that was strictly vertical is not the only way to look at things. Simply put, different people have different strengths and different weaknesses. To a degree its like comparing apples and oranges. I suppose it depends upon the society in which you find yourself in though and what that society values. For some reason, here in the west we assume that having a high IQ and being a good person are one and the same. Which of course really doesn’t make any sense. I’m of the opinion that a more mature society would separate notions of intelligence from notions of character. As for races and their capacities for learning, I definitely believe there are some general tendencies with regards to intelligence. Of course the most important words is tendencies. According to the bell curve, IIRC approximately 10% of blacks are smarter than 50% of whites. That’s one out of ten mind you. So yes, I am claiming that race and intelligence are intertwined, but as you see, the actual situation is a bit more nuanced. In a strange way, we’re both sort of right. In any case, its quite obvious that this is more of an emotional issue for you than a rational one.

    “Well, since this is primarily an activism, political, and literature blog, I encourage you to think about Asian American activism, politics, and literature. See what makes it into the media, and think about what doesn’t. Think about the movie 21, and how they took a historically Asian character and made him White. The Last Airbender. It happens over and over. Think about…”
    -Yup yup yup yup, you think asians are the only ones that get shit on by the MSM? In nearly every commercial you see that has a white person and a black person, the white person is always made to look clumsy and stupid, while the black person is always made to look smart and sophisticated. A similar trend is reflected in movies. My point here is that your argument as you understand it doesn’t add up. Why would whites trash themselves too? Of course who’s the most dominant ethnicity in hollywood is an entirely different subject, although there is a lot of conjecture about the subject. I don’t feel very inclined to touch on it though, so you can research it yourself and formulate your own conclusions about the matter. And why would asians want to be represented by something like the last airbender anyways? Talk about fighting over crumbs.

    @ king
    -You cover up your lack of arguments with thinly veiled ad hominem. Some things you seem to understand and then with other things its almost as if you completely miss the subtlety.

    “Again, nice try, but the little “differences” (across the ethnic gamut) that you’re referring to consist of things like athleticism, cognitive capacity, aggressiveness, replication value, adaptability, and social value. Your precious HBD mumbo jumbo is basically deterministic racial evolution, and evolution always comes down, in the end, to the fit and the dead. No, there are quite serious hierarchical implications to the “differences” you’re trying to so neatly gloss over.”
    -I already addressed a similar point with my rebuttal to jaehwan, but ill respond to this as well. If HBD happens to be true then all of us will have to deal with the ramifications, for better or for worse. There’s no point in putting your head in the sand. Just because you don’t want to believe its true won’t make it disappear. Sorry.

    “Well, actually I’m not. But the real problem is that you think that you’re two or three times more intelligent than you really are. And therefore you believe that you’re making these excellent points, when you’re really talking yourself into circles and making every point a case of “No, you misunderstood my brilliance… or that’s out of context… or I obviously didn’t mean that literally…””
    -Yeah, actually you are. You are completely oblivious to nuance and subtlety. And if you want to talk about talking in circles, I think you have me beat on that. Well, except you also talk out your ass.

    “I think Truth Speaker set you right on his comment on this point. But let me just add that all prejudice is not equal. Just because there is markedly less KKK style racism…”
    -True, now we have the opposite http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100824/NEWS01/8240366/Police-say-it-s-very-possible-attacks-near-fairgrounds-had-racial-overtones

    “Oh yes… because we ALL think like that, down at the “Black Man Club!” Yes, we ALL voted in the “no snitch” policy back in the early 1970′s. The vote was 41 million to 1. You must really know Black people!!! How about the “no snitch” policy in Triad controlled Asian neighborhoods? How about the “no snitch” policy, in Mexican drug gang neighborhoods? How about the “no snitch” policy in the White Biker meth-gang neighborhoods? Why the hell do you think people have a no snitch policy in the first place? They’re usually scared to death of reprisals.”
    -Reprisals from who? White people? No, not white people. You already know from who. And blacks that don’t think that way wouldn’t be living in the same community as the rioters anyways. Shows the depth of your understanding of what I wrote. Additionally, all your examples of other races and snitching only applies to outlier segments of said races. Not snitching and aversion to working with the police seems to be the default attitude in a large amount african american communities.

    “But, of course, that’s the case in every ghetto/barrio/meth-hood areas in every culture. It just so happens that you’re stupid enough to think that most Black people, live in a ghetto. Are you really this obtuse???”
    -Yes, I imagine that most of the blacks that riot do reside in the ghetto.

    “WHAT? Are you kidding me?”
    -Still awaiting your response about this. Put up or shut up. I fail to see how asians are institutionally discriminated against on a wide scale.

    @ fatcatattack
    “HBD is just white supremacy for neckbeard weirdos.”
    -http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434 Fucking rednecks

    “What is reality? It’s competition. It’s a fair fight. Does an “Alpha Male” run from a fair fight? A creature so cowardly, so pathetic they rig the game and ruin lives is not an Alpha Male. It’s not a Beta male. To be either you have to be a man first.”
    -Spare us your poetic (yet empty) rhetoric. What is reality? It simply is. Reality doesn’t care what we think of it. Sometimes its a fair fight, sometimes its not. Funny thing about alpha males and beta males is that alpha males lead, and beta males follow. You are all followers, you say what you’re supposed to say and do what you’re supposed to do. Why? Because that’s what you’ve been taught and its what everybody else thinks. There is not a shred of intellectual courage here, only empty convictions. I don’t blame you all, afterall it is easier to follow than it is to lead. Goodjob fatcatattack, spoken like a true beta male.

    @ truthspeaker (again)
    “And I wouldn’t say I hate whites… that’s not quite it. They are largely our enemies, and competitors, thanks to their short-sightedness and hateful nature, broadly speaking, as a people and civilization- but I don’t hate every white person on the planet.”
    -Again, if you detest whites so much then immediately cease using their technology, language, social institutions, etc. etc. Talk about short sighted. And it sounds to me that you are plenty full of hate.

    @ king (again)
    “-The tutor, who gives up on you much sooner because you’re a certain race.”
    -You were not there, you don’t know that for sure. You have said nothing but presumption and conjecture.

    “-The supervisor, who doesn’t give you the same chance to advance as the White guys.”
    -Lacking specifics here, perhaps it was personal and not because of your race? Or maybe you just weren’t up to snuff. I really can’t say much here because you have not given enough details. Not that I think you’d actually have enough integrity to give me truthful, impartial account of what actually happened.

    “-The teacher who ignores certain colored hands, when White hands are raised.”
    -Ah, this explains everything! I haven’t noticed that phenomena, it could exist, but most teachers and professors tend to be swing quite liberal so I have a hard time believing that this would be a common, universal occurence.

    “-The institution that has certain unspoken policies about how far certain people can go.”
    -The institution? What do you even mean by that? The government? Unspoken policies? So this is conjecture. In a capitalists society, the only color that matters is green. That fact that this statement is extremely vague makes me suspect that you’re standing on pretty shaky ground. Any lack of advancement is probably due more to lack of competence than race. Of course, racial discrimination does exist in some cases, but I know it doesn’t exist to the degree which you purport it does.

    “here are always those individual outliers, but in the mean, that’s kind of what it comes down to. For instance, I graduated from college with fairly decent grades, so I suppose, that I’m a bit of a genetic exception? Just like an extraverted Asian guy who dates White women would be, Right?”
    -Pretty obvious that since you’ve never taken the time to seriously study HBD that you would have to make so many straw men to knock down. On the bell curve, There is a fairly considerable overlap between black and white mean IQ. We are dealing in generalities here, something which you intentionally choose to ignore or are just unable to grasp.

    “Culture, environment, value perception, resource access, wealth, nutrition, and necessity.”
    -And genetics. Genetics should probably be first.

    “It’s not about skin color, and often, even relatively small adjustments in social expectation can make big differences in the success of a given population. For example, you have the case of West Indian/Caribbean Blacks, who are from the same genetic pool as American Blacks (just dropped off at a different stop by the slave vessel) Yet, there is a marked difference in their relative success rates in American society.”
    -Of course its usually the smart ones that have the money to immigrate.
    http://www.russellsage.org/publications/books/080118.064111

    “Besides, your argument is yet another straw man. I’m not saying that all \races\ are the same, I’m just saying that their intelligence, customs, and social abilities, are not dictated by their genetics.”
    -Why not? The brain is the seat of intelligence and personality (amongst other things), if your physical body and the way you look is inherited and affected by genes then why not your brain? Could you please explain this mechanism to me?

    -Why not? The brain is the seat of intelligence and personality (amongst other things), if your physical body and the way you look is inherited and affected by genes then why not your brain? Could you please explain this mechanism to me?

  49. @jaehwan

    6’1 Ewoks? Ewwwwww….
    And who says 5 foot and under Ewoks aren’t athletic? It’s just because the media puts so much focus on the Skywalkers that they ignore how physically gifted the Ewoks were, they could dodge laser guns shots.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQ5_q7p6WQs&feature=related

    They even kicked ‘Predators’ arses when they dared to take them on
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRm7yuVWM-A

    If only some of them were given light-sabres (and we all know that Jedis would not have been wiped if they bothered to find an Asian Jedi – he would have kicked Annakin’s arse any day of the week).

    And we are know that the most kick-arse guy in the star wars universe was 3 feet tall (with shoes of course) with a one foot wing-span.

  50. Who is this Asian Dude,

    What a moron! There should be some type of award given to the dumbest, longest post ever with a couple references to dating white women as attempted put downs (Really?). It wasn’t even dumb in the funny way; just dumb in a sad way. Can’t believe I wasted life reading 2/3 of this idiot’s last post before I gouged my eyes out. At least AOR knows he has such a loyal boyfriend in Asian Dude.

  51. mT:

    Hahaha! I know, these unoriginal HBD PUAs ALWAYS have to throw in White women because as White men are on the top of their male hierarchy, White women are the forbidden fruit that every single Asian and Black man wants.

    I didn’t read the entire post either–just the parts addressed to me–and yes, it’s dumb. I think AOR has some issues in how he views race, but at least he can stick on topic. Most of AD’s stuff is nonsense about what he thinks we think. “Oh, you’re lying!” “Oh, you just want White women!”

    There was one serious point that I wanted to address–though people should keep in mind that it isn’t Asian Dude’s point but one originally made by the White racists who created eugenics/HBD. He parrots real well. He says:

    -I never said a hierachy didn’t exist. Stop twisting the argument around. I said a hierachy that was strictly vertical is not the only way to look at things. Simply put, different people have different strengths and different weaknesses. To a degree its like comparing apples and oranges. I suppose it depends upon the society in which you find yourself in though and what that society values. For some reason, here in the west we assume that having a high IQ and being a good person are one and the same. Which of course really doesn’t make any sense. I’m of the opinion that a more mature society would separate notions of intelligence from notions of character. As for races and their capacities for learning, I definitely believe there are some general tendencies with regards to intelligence.

    Bold emphasis is mine.

    Everyone who is even remotely intelligent and who bothered to read this probably felt his/her bullshit detector going off, but I want to point out the obvious fact that this IS hierarchy, and it’s what the HBD’ers sell. “You people are good at one thing, and you people are good at another.” There’s no twisting going on, because it is still a hierarchy. Not based on any evidence, of course, but a hierarchy nonetheless.

    N,

    Did Yoda get turned down by a White woman. That’s all that matters when we’re talking HBD with these guys. :)

    It’s so funny–Star Wars was on Spike late last night. Do you remember the scene where Luke and Obi-Wan meet Han Solo and Chewbacca for the first time? I couldn’t help thinking of HBD PUAs when they showed that bar. While Yoda is busy meditating by himself on his own planet, the PUAs are working on their game in a seedy bar. I guess it all depends on what you want to achieve in life.

  52. @ AOR

    Hey, my reply to you was stuck in moderation, so have a look upthread.

    @ Asian Dude

    Man, your post is too long because you’re taking other people’s full posts as quotations, and you’re trying to respond to every poster in one gigantic reply. It would have been easier to follow, and understand, if you had broken it up into a series of individual replies.

  53. While I do not agree with Asian Dude’s position, I did not find his comment to be “moronic.” I also did not find it all that hard to follow. Was it more reading than I would have liked to do on a Monday morning? Yes. Yet it was intriguing enough to keep me going.

    Not that anyone appointed me referee, but I would like to refer to the tagline at the top of this blog: “Asian American Intellectualism and Activism.” Folks here are straying just a tad from the “intellectualism” bit.

    And Byron, Recaptcha wants me to type in Greek letters. Really now!? Come on!

  54. @ ricecakerabbit
    -So apparently you go to college? I recall learning the same things. Hope you realize that just because you are paying for your education does not guarantee its objectivity.

    @ mt
    -I’m not the one who harbors a huge grudge against white people, jaehwan is. Thus the jabs about being rejected by white women are not only relevant, but quite possibly true.

    @ King
    -Simple then, read only what is addressed to you. Are you just too lazy to, or are you reluctant to reply because you know that I will always call you out on the bullshit that you try to pass off as intellectual discourse?

    “However, if I moved to the Andes and founded my own village at 12,000 feet above sea level, after some generations, my Black descendants would show similar kinds of adaptation. It’s not racial genetics, it’s adaptive genetics.”
    -I think that adaptive genetics is a rather slow process. Hope you’re patient and willing to wait thousands of years. It also appears to me that you are oversimplifying the science here in order to support your claim, however I do not wish to be arrogant and dismiss your claim out of hand. So, if you don’t mind me asking, have there been studies that indicate just this in human beings? Also while on the same subject, why is it that african americans still have broad noses, kinky hair and dark skin (all adaptations to hot weather IIRC) even though there have been many generations that have passed since the african slaves were originally brought here? Considering that a considerable number of african americans live in the (colder) northern states, its logical to assume that they would look different by now. Which is not what I’ve seen thus far. As far as I’m concernced, racial genetics IS adaptive genetics. The two are simply a spectrum, not two separate entities.

    “Yes, I agree, but the genetics in question are not broad RACIAL genetics. It may be correct to say that, at this point in time, the fastest sprinters have been of West Africans stock, but it is not necessarily correct to say that a general trait of West African people is that they are fast sprinters. Do you understand the difference between those two statements?”
    -I don’t know if you actually understand what you are saying. The fact of the matter is, most of the fastest sprinters have been of west african origin, not west european, not amerindian, not east asian, but west african. Its not relevant to compare west african sprinters to west african people as a whole. From observation, it is safe to say that the west african genepool has a large propensity for fast runners. End of discussion. I notice you enjoy trying to obfuscate the arguments a lot, do you do this in an attempt to intentionally try to confuse people or do you actually not realize that you are missing the gist of the arguments at hand?

    “For all we know, West African people, *on average*, may be slower runners than Eskimos, once you cut out the comparatively small group of elite athletes.”
    -Don’t be silly, are you implying that countries like china, or russia are incapable of fielding elite atheletes? Of course they are yet I still see no chinese or russian elite sprinters. Your point makes no logical sense.

    “O.K. then please provide the genetic data. Which genes *specifically* have been identified that control intelligence between ethnicities? Where are the genes that control customs, and beliefs, and religion? Where is the math gene? If this is true genetics than give us the genetic research that backs up your intractable position.”
    -Are you being sarcastic or do you really believe that there would be specific genes that control customs, beliefs, religions, math, etc? Obviously things like that play off of genetically induced tendencies. The relation is causal not intrinistic. You’ll get your answers soon enough, and not from the white man, but from the yellow man.

    @ jaehwan
    “Hahaha! I know, these unoriginal HBD PUAs ALWAYS have to throw in White women because as White men are on the top of their male hierarchy, White women are the forbidden fruit that every single Asian and Black man wants.”
    -You accuse me of being a HBD PUA (whatever the hell that is.) yet you’re the one who has to go to a website to learn how to be an alpha male. (Alpha Asian). I really don’t think you’re capable of getting a woman, of any race, you’re a follower and the epitomy of a beta male. As for the white woman thing, the best way to degrade a group of people is to fuck its women and have them bear your offspring. Considering how you feel about whites I would surmise that you would desire to do this. Considering that you apparently don’t, I take it that the most likely scenario is that you are unable to. Thus you make a pathetic attempt to act like you don’t even like white women. And for the record, I enjoy all kinds of women, and have no serious issues with attracting one, I don’t have to learn how to do so from the internet, unlike you. Jaehwan you are laughable transparent, about all of what you say is projection. Most likely you’re an effete, short asian male who see’s a bunch of white guys with asian females, and to make matters worse you can’t even balance the scales by snagging a white woman. Thus explaining your pathological hate (or is it envy?) for white people. So, in an attempt to salvage your damaged pride you attempt to channel the black man, making the accurate observation that he appears to be adept at sticking it to the white man (as well as white woman lmao), but since you can’t actually turn yourself into a black guy, you just make an attempt to absorb all of their culture, while simultaneously trying to improve yourself in the only feasible way possible, via becoming an “Alpha Asian Male”. I think that pretty much sums up your basic mentality.
    “There was one serious point that I wanted to address–though people should keep in mind that it isn’t Asian Dude’s point but one originally made by the White racists who created eugenics/HBD. He parrots real well. He says:”
    -HBD has always existed, racial differences didn’t just all the sudden pop up one day, the differences are quite universal. And as i’ve posted numerous times, china is taking up the torch. So please do away with the tired white racists cliches. Also the parts of what I said that were bolded do not contradict each other in the least. I never said a hierachy didn’t exist. There are hierarchies for everything, intelligence included. However society should be more mature and should leave behind the (false) idea that intelligence and character are intertwined. Additionally as I have said time and time again, the situation is actually very nuanced and there is a great degree of overlap. Stop trying to decieve people by intentionally oversimplifying the arguments, let the facts stand and let people decide for themselves.

    I’ve made the effort to be very thorough with my responses, I wish you would extend me the same courtesy. You still haven’t answered my questions.
    1.“I (and King and I think most others) believe that black and Asian interests ARE aligned.”
    -What interests?

    2.“If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.”
    -Equal opportunities, like what? Everything seems pretty equal to me.

    3.Why would asians want to be represented by something like the last airbender anyways? lmao

  55. @TZ,

    Stop playing referee! I don’t think anyone said it was hard to follow; just that it was painfully stupid and poorly written. How you poorly write stupidity – I never thought it could be done…but Asian dude sure proved me wrong in one epic post. Genetically speaking, women are more patient with morons than men. So congrats?

    BTW, I think you know my brother…at least on facebook.

  56. Damn whitey, can’t he just leave asians alone?????
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39017234/ns/us_news

    @ MT
    “Stop playing referee! I don’t think anyone said it was hard to follow; just that it was painfully stupid and poorly written. How you poorly write stupidity – I never thought it could be done…but Asian dude sure proved me wrong in one epic post. Genetically speaking, women are more patient with morons than men. So congrats?”
    -What an ass. Says the guy who has no opinions and adds nothing of significance. You’re just a cheerleader. Wanna tell me which specific parts were “painfully stupid and poorly written”? I do not mind verbal sparring with you either, but from the looks of it you have a lot of empty space in between those ears.

  57. @ ricecakerabbit
    -So apparently you go to college? I recall learning the same things. Hope you realize that just because you are paying for your education does not guarantee its objectivity.

    Honest question–I’m not quite sure what your point is here. Are you questioning the dates I listed as subjective? The that people performed vivisection is subjective? That Descartes was a proponent of substance dualism?

  58. @Asian dude

    Hey, not everyone guy in the universe ‘desires’ white girls more than other girls. If I went home and for some reason finds an undressed Megan Fox lying in my bed waiting for me…
    I would actually call 911 to arrest that crazy girl that broke into my house.

  59. N wrote: If I went home and for some reason finds an undressed Megan Fox lying in my bed waiting for me… I would actually call 911 to arrest that crazy girl that broke into my house.

    YOU LIE!

    Either that or you’re a woman, or you’re gay. If not, then you should return your balls and get a refund.

    I kid, I kid, N. I like Ewoks too.

  60. TZ,

    I have to agree with mT. I don’t know if intriguing is the word, but probably entertaining.

    “Intellectual” is one thing of course, but TZ, does this look intellectual to you?

    “-I’m not the one who harbors a huge grudge against white people, jaehwan is. Thus the jabs about being rejected by white women are not only relevant, but quite possibly true. “

    I could play the same game by seeing Asian Dude’s love of putting black men and white men at the top of the “alpha” hierarchy, and then accuse him of being a gay man hung up on White and Black men. It’s not only relevant but quite possibly true, right? You can always debate that way. You could debate women and accuse them of penis envy, Native Americans of alcoholism, and other-ized people of whatever stereotype people have of them. It’s easy to tag people with stereotypes when you have no ammo in your intellectual cannon.

    But of course, people see through bullshit, which is why the commenters here are jumping all over him and beating him like wooden bats on a pinata. He could, of course, join us for the podcast. But that’s up to him and AOR–AD if he decides to stand up, AOR if he wants to share his speaking time.

    Asian Dude,

    If you want to join us, e-mail Alpha-Asian (our moderator), AOR, or me. If you prefer to hide and act like a coward behind your anonymous internet screen name, that’s okay too.

    “@ King
    -Simple then, read only what is addressed to you. Are you just too lazy to, or are you reluctant to reply because you know that I will always call you out on the bullshit that you try to pass off as intellectual discourse?”

    No, Genius, he simply expressed an opinion that your post was long and all over the place, the same opinion that mT stated. It’s funny that King and mT had the same opinion, yet you accused the black man of being lazy and incapable of intellectual discourse. Similarly, King and I feel the same way about HBD, yet you accuse him, not me, of being lazy and unintellectual, and you accuse me, the Asian guy, of being unable to get women (as if that were relevant to my anger at how AOR treated that little girl). You need to break out of this stereotypical thinking and try to be a little more intellectually independent. If we had an Arab guy in on this situation, you’d accuse him of being a terrorist.

    This is how racism works, by the way. It’s the same deal with AOR’s experience with the black girl he tutored. You see things through the lens of race. And like the rest of these HBD PUA jockeys, you see things as being equal, despite the numerous examples that both King and I brought up.

    -Equal opportunities, like what? Everything seems pretty equal to me. This pretty much explains our differences.

  61. “-What an ass. Says the guy who has no opinions and adds nothing of significance. You’re just a cheerleader. Wanna tell me which specific parts were “painfully stupid and poorly written”? I do not mind verbal sparring with you either, but from the looks of it you have a lot of empty space in between those ears.”

    LOL, HAHAHA, HARDEE, HARDEE, HAHAHA, HAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I believe I DO have an opinion…a very important one. My opinion is that you’re a whitey (especially the women folk) worshipping moron. That’s called an opinion you moron. I believe pointing out that you’re a moron is very significant.

    Answer me this moron. Why would I want to waste my time in a verbal sparring match with you…someone who I consider a complete moron. Say hi to your white boyfriends’ girlfriends for me moron.

  62. Sorry, I’ve been

    1. Grilling fish
    2. Eating grilled fish
    3. Playing football
    4. Hanging out with some friends.

    I’ll get back to you a little later tonight.

  63. @ N
    -Well you don’t have to worry because that will never happen to you ;) FYI I’m not the one obssessed with white people here, jaehwan and king are. I’m only calling for a more balanced, fair outlook about the whole thing. Is it really productive to constantly claim that white people only live to hold down everybody else? I imagine that they are probably too busy working, supporting their families, etc. etc. to have the time to carry out some sinister plot against all those terrible non white people.

    @ Jaehwan
    -Why persist in the juvenile finger pointing and ridiculing? You haven’t yet addressed any of my (valid) points, all you do is try to muddy and distort the issues without ever really saying anything of substance. Your tag “Asian American Intellectualism and Activism” is a bit of a misnomer. From the very beginning all you’ve done is to try your hardest to bring down the quality of discussion to the lowest common denominator. Its quite appalling that there are people like you who consider themselves representatives of asian americans as a whole. I’m beginning to wonder if maybe this whole thing is just a publicity stunt to try to drum up readers for your blog. A cursory observation of your blog leads me to believe that you don’t exactly have a whole lot of readers. I mean god you still blog about charlie chan. What are you trying to do, put people to sleep? No wonder people say asians are about as exciting as a styrofoam cup.

    ““Intellectual” is one thing of course, but TZ, does this look intellectual to you?
    “-I’m not the one who harbors a huge grudge against white people, jaehwan is. Thus the jabs about being rejected by white women are not only relevant, but quite possibly true. “”
    -Well to be honest an alternate explanation for your peculiar proclivities is rather hard to conjure. The above explanation seems like a reasonable one. Combined with a little bit of basic psychology it all makes sense. Frequently unreasonably strong feelings against something are usually indicative of suppressed desire/admiration of that which you oppose. I feel that if you were really secure in yourself sans any complexes, then you never would have been bothered by the views AOR espouses on his own blog to begin with. However the fact that you immediately took it upon yourself to defend the honor of asian males everywhere kind of makes you look silly.

    “My second problem is the lack of reasoning on the blogger’s part. Even though he calls himself “The Asian of Reason,” the blogger seems to accept propositions without debate. It’s like a White man says the sky is green and the blogger accepts it without question–it don’t matter if the sky itself opened its mouth and spoke! Check out the paragraph above. “I accept it.“ He accepts that White men are somehow better; he accepts his inferiority. It seems like such a weak position to take for a person who puts time into blogging. To me, if life is worth living, it’s worth understanding and debating. Despite his admiration for the White man, the blogger doesn’t seem to follow the philosophy of the most famous White male philosopher who said that “the unexamined life is not worth living.””
    -To this, all I have to say is, so what? I could really care less about how AOR may choose to feel.

    If you want to persist in claiming that what I’m saying lacks intellect then perhaps we should take a look at some of the drivel that you post.

    “The funny thing is that once Massah is out of the picture, they can’t function on their own. They’re used to doing the Massah’s bidding that when Massah leaves the house they become helpless. Already there’s one guy talking smack on AOR’s site, but where’s the back up? “Oh, look at how tough I am, but make sure no one finds out your identity!”
    -Its funny that you use the terminology “massah”, and “talking smack”. Real highbrow there. Does anyone still use the expression “talking smack”? Furthermore care to elucidate exactly how it is that asians do the “massahs” bidding? and how it is that we become helpless?

    “Unlike these HBD PUA nuthuggers, I see people as people rather than rats trying to fight over crumbs.”
    -Man your incredible intellect continues to just blow me away. And of course a little later on you complain about the lack of asians in the last airbender.

    “Though I hate the views on his blog, I appreciate him stepping up to either defend or recant them.”
    -ARGHH! Its that pesky freedom of speech thing again! Why can’t everybody just think the way I do????? People disagreeing with me or having diverging opinions? Unacceptable!

    “Look, women would rather date a Wookie like Chewbacca rather than an Ewok. It’s HBD, man, and I think you need to accept it and celebrate human biodiversity…before the Ewoks get bred out of existence, of course. I happen to be an Ewok at heart, but I also happen to be a 6’1 athletic Ewok at heart, so nothing I say about Ewoks applies to me personally.”
    -I think my head is about to explode from the sheer intelligence being expressed here.

    “It’s easy to tag people with stereotypes when you have no ammo in your intellectual cannon.”
    -I find it amusing that you would accuse someone of having no ammo in their intellectual cannon. Maybe its more of that projection thing we were talking about. So far it appears to be you that lacks ammo. You bring nothing to the table, only a bunch of huffing and puffing, moral condescension and false bravado. And everytime you attempt to construct something resembling an argument I proceed to thoroughly debunk it and then you predictably go back to making ad hominem swipes at me, hoping that in the process nobody will notice that you failed to respond to any of my valid observations.

    “If you want to join us, e-mail Alpha-Asian (our moderator), AOR, or me. If you prefer to hide and act like a coward behind your anonymous internet screen name, that’s okay too.”
    -Sooooo mature there. Actually I would prefer anonymity, you seem to be a rather unscrupulous and unprincipled person. And if that makes me what you would deem a coward then so be it. I really hope you’re not under the illusion that I give a rats ass what you think of me. This is unlike you, who seems to be obssessed with other people’s personal thoughts and opinions. You know the way you go about it makes you look like a complete buffoon. Even if your stance was right, you would never succeed in converting anybody new, you’d turn them off with your boorishness before they ever bothered to listen to a word you said.

    “No, Genius, he simply expressed an opinion that your post was long and all over the place, the same opinion that mT stated.”
    -Uh huh, and I addressed mt as well so whats your point.

    “It’s funny that King and mT had the same opinion, yet you accused the black man of being lazy and incapable of intellectual discourse.”
    -I think you try your hardest to find racism even when it isn’t there. From what I have seen thus far, King (who happens to be a black man, the emphasis being all yours.) does seem to be either intellectually lazy/dishonest or maybe just not very bright. I’ll infer that from his occasional eloquence that he is not stupid, just dishonest or deluded. Although to his credit he does bother to try to make a response. mt thus far has said nothing, he prefers to remain an annoying instigator just egging shit on. I have nothing to say regarding mt’s capacity seeing as he has not bothered to say anything.

    “Similarly, King and I feel the same way about HBD, yet you accuse him, not me, of being lazy and unintellectual”
    -Same thing as above, you don’t attempt to make any arguments, just a bunch of name calling, attempts at ridicule, and constant attempts to try to assert your moral superiority. I’m not very impressed. For the record, I can tell you it took a lot more effort to type up that response than it would take for king to read it. Maybe thats why I would think king is “lazy”.

    “and you accuse me, the Asian guy, of being unable to get women (as if that were relevant to my anger at how AOR treated that little girl).”
    -Probably true. Your general demeanor and attitude is that of somebody who probably feels that they have something to prove. That and the fact that you are extremely confrontational, and just in general unpleasant to talk to. You take yourself entirely too seriously. I just can’t imagine a guy thats got a girlfriend and getting laid on a regular basis getting so worked up about shit. As for the girl, you weren’t there, neither was I. You try to make it sound dramatic and abusive when in reality I imagine it was neither. In any case you act if it is the end of the world. If you’re gonna feel bad about somebody, what about these guys? (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39017234/ns/us_news) I want your opinion on that. I think its just awful. How could anybody do that? And here you are getting worked up over some girl who supposedly got shitty tutoring. Hell, i’ll take the shitty tutoring any day.

    “You need to break out of this stereotypical thinking and try to be a little more intellectually independent. If we had an Arab guy in on this situation, you’d accuse him of being a terrorist.”
    -I really don’t see how you can accuse me of not being intellectually independent. My opinions are at odds with everybody here. In spite of that, i’m still holding my own. Perhaps jaehwan, you should try to be less dogmatic and more diplomatic and actually consider the fact that maybe you don’t know everything. I sure as hell know that I don’t, my opinions on HBD are from a lifetime of experience, personal observations, and research about other cultures in the world. I am always receptive to the possibility that I may be wrong though, however nobody here has yet given me any reason to think otherwise. As for arabs, I am actually quite fond of their culture. Its a shame that the united states is being made to do the bidding of israel in the middle east. Why are you attemping to bring arabs into this anyways? Seems to me that by now you are just grasping at straws. It demonstrates quite vividly the quality of the arguments you put forth.

    “You see things through the lens of race.”
    -Ironically, I think you are more concerned about race than I am.

    “And like the rest of these HBD PUA jockeys, you see things as being equal, despite the numerous examples that both King and I brought up.”
    -Ummm…you all brought up examples? Numerous ones? I don’t seem to recall reading any. Especially one’s from you. Remind again of how asians are institutionally discriminated against on a widescale? Quit ducking the question, you still haven’t answered me. Also, why do you keep throwing around the term HBD PUA? The only person who has demonstrated any sort of connection with the PUA subculture has been you.

    Again I ask you to answer my questions:
    1.“I (and King and I think most others) believe that black and Asian interests ARE aligned.”
    -What interests?

    2.“If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.”
    -Equal opportunities for asians?, like what? Everything seems pretty equal to me. Please enlighten me.

    http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434
    -This is the third time i’ve posted this link. I am curious to get your input on it. How do you feel about it? How does it impact your current paradigm?

    @ mt
    “I believe I DO have an opinion…a very important one. My opinion is that you’re a whitey (especially the women folk) worshipping moron. That’s called an opinion you moron. I believe pointing out that you’re a moron is very significant.

    Answer me this moron. Why would I want to waste my time in a verbal sparring match with you…someone who I consider a complete moron. Say hi to your white boyfriends’ girlfriends for me moron.”
    -Another stunning example of the highbrow discourse on this blog. I have nothing to say to you. This is certainly asian american intellectualism at its finest…Either that, or you’re a troll. But i’m pretty sure that you’re are for real. Also I can’t say hi to my white boyfriends’ girlfriends because i’m not gay, so how about instead I say hi to your mother.

    See how easy that was? Really, talking trash is nothing special, can we please elevate the quality of discussion here.

  64. @King: yes I’m the same user although I’m surprised you remembered since I didn’t post that often on F44 having preferred MM myself (not to stir up the inter site rivalry or anything I came in after most of that was over anyway) and you posted towards the end of the site’s life cycle.

    “Asian Dude” is either white or is the real life Asian Uncle Ruckus. The most glaring indicators being the “white dudes have it bad in the media claim” he made above and the “be thankful for white people!” nonsense as well. These are classic delusions held by Stormfronters and go a bit beyond privilege blindness as it generally doesn’t claim victimization for whites. He also hints that Jews aren’t white with his “infer the dominant ethnicity in Hollywood” comment. Stormfronters make distinctions between Jews and Whites and pass the buck in this manner. His post is, aside from a apoplectic mass of butthurt, a contradictory mess. In his address to me for instance he goes on with “reality’s not fair” ” you’re follower; betas are followers and so on” and in other posts he whines about how unfair we are to white people. So who is it that we are “following?” He claims ignorance about racism and then he turns around and uses it as a bludgeon. This “Asian Dude” is nuttier than squirrel shit regardless of what race he is.

    Speaking of followers and leaders White men don’t lead. In fact it’s quite the opposite. They offload their burdens, their insecurities onto PoC. They are counting on us apparently to endure and literally be the better man. Goodness what white dudes would do if they had to put up with what Asian men have to put up with in this country. I keep imagining this painting

    But that’s not a healthy way to live life for them or for us. It’s not Asian people’s job to be nursemaid to the white man’s issues.

  65. “I mean god you still blog about charlie chan. What are you trying to do, put people to sleep? No wonder people say asians are about as exciting as a styrofoam cup.”

    If you had any intellectual curiosity, you’d be interested in Asian American history. You’d be interested in the people who created it and challenged it. Of course it feels like styrofoam for you.

    “Well to be honest an alternate explanation for your peculiar proclivities is rather hard to conjure. The above explanation seems like a reasonable one. Combined with a little bit of basic psychology it all makes sense. Frequently unreasonably strong feelings against something are usually indicative of suppressed desire/admiration of that which you oppose…”

    Yup, because instead of sticking to the subject being debated, your job is to psychoanalyze the debater or throw random insults based on the debater’s race, gender, or ethnicity in hopes that some HBD generalization will stick. You’ve already talked about how I am supposedly an embarrassment to Korean people, how I supposedly want a White woman, and supposedly learn PUA from the internet, etc. etc. You’re just looking for some personal insult to stick, and the fact that none of these insults are based on anything I actually said is telling. You’re wasting your time.

    “-Sooooo mature there. Actually I would prefer anonymity, you seem to be a rather unscrupulous and unprincipled person. And if that makes me what you would deem a coward then so be it. I really hope you’re not under the illusion that I give a rats ass what you think of me.”

    Okay, so be it. I think you’re a coward. And I’m not under the illusion that you give a rat’s ass about what I think of you. We’ve got different values, and so we mutually don’t give a rat’s ass about each other. I’m glad to hear that.

    “-I think you try your hardest to find racism even when it isn’t there. From what I have seen thus far, King (who happens to be a black man, the emphasis being all yours.) does seem to be either intellectually lazy/dishonest or maybe just not very bright.”

    Oh, yes, it was a coincidence that you dropped those racialized insults. I’m sure this works great in your HBD community, but again, people here don’t generally subscribe to that.

    “-Another stunning example of the highbrow discourse on this blog. I have nothing to say to you. This is certainly asian american intellectualism at its finest…Either that, or you’re a troll. But i’m pretty sure that you’re are for real. Also I can’t say hi to my white boyfriends’ girlfriends because i’m not gay, so how about instead I say hi to your mother.”

    Oh, jokes about a person’s mother. That’s very original. Maybe that’ll stick? People call you stupid because of your comments, but wow…mother jokes. I’d call that cowardly, but I think I’ve already said that. Dude, we just have different values.

    I think you might want to go elsewhere. It’s not healthy for you to be here. You really need to get off the web and start seeing life for what it is. I agree that it probably took less effort for King to read your megapost than for you to write it. I think that proves that you put way too much effort into your comments, which is quite astounding, considering that it’s virtually all random personal insults.

    Tune in to the podcast when it’s up. AOR has the courage to stand up and speak for his beliefs, and even though I disagree with him, I’m glad he is standing up and showing his integrity. (I know I said that before, but you seem to ignore everything anyone posts, so I’m just saying it once more.)

    Give it a listen once it’s up. Best of luck in the future, and peace out. I seriously do wish you the best.

  66. @ fatcatattack
    “Asian Dude” is either white or is the real life Asian Uncle Ruckus. The most glaring indicators being the “white dudes have it bad in the media claim” he made above and the “be thankful for white people!” nonsense as well.”
    -Do you mind if I ask what your race is? I am asian, and I personally choose not to get caught up in racial identity politics. Sorry. Furthermore, I would like to point out that it was jaehwan who originally brought up discrimination in the media. Whites have it just as bad as asians in the media from what i’ve seen. Why? I don’t know why. Its just what i’ve observed. As for being “thankful” for white people, I’m not quite sure what you’re referring to. Please clarify.

    “He also hints that Jews aren’t white with his “infer the dominant ethnicity in Hollywood” comment. Stormfronters make distinctions between Jews and Whites and pass the buck in this manner.”
    -I said dominant ethnicity, not race. I.E. Chinese is an ethnicity, but asian is a race. A chinese person can be both chinese and asian. Understand? Stop purposely obfuscating the arguement. And if you think that being of the same race is enough to ensure some form of solidarity then you are wrong. World War I, World War 2, Japan’s colonization of asia, slaughter in rwanda, darfur etc.

    “His post is, aside from a apoplectic mass of butthurt, a contradictory mess. In his address to me for instance he goes on with “reality’s not fair” ” you’re follower; betas are followers and so on” and in other posts he whines about how unfair we are to white people.”
    -I fail to see the contradiction. This is what you wrote:

    “What is reality? It’s competition. It’s a fair fight. Does an “Alpha Male” run from a fair fight? A creature so cowardly, so pathetic they rig the game and ruin lives is not an Alpha Male. It’s not a Beta male. To be either you have to be a man first.”

    To which I responded:

    “Spare us your poetic (yet empty) rhetoric. What is reality? It simply is. Reality doesn’t care what we think of it. Sometimes its a fair fight, sometimes its not.”

    I take it that you’ve never heard the axiom that life is not fair. One more thing, I don’t whine about anything, I just happen to think a united pan-minority front contra whites is rather short sighted. Everything is a bit more complicated than that.

    “So who is it that we are “following?” He claims ignorance about racism and then he turns around and uses it as a bludgeon.”
    -You all are following politically motivated dogma that insists on justifying its existence by exacerbating and inflaming racial tensions.

    “This “Asian Dude” is nuttier than squirrel shit regardless of what race he is.”
    -“Now if you’ll excuse me I have an Anime convention to attend to. Those Asian girls aren’t going to put the Rohypnol in their snapples themselves! :Flies away on a magical gay hippo:” You’re pretty nutty yourself…

    “Speaking of followers and leaders White men don’t lead. In fact it’s quite the opposite. They offload their burdens, their insecurities onto PoC.”
    -Can you give me some concrete, contemporary examples of this phenomena?

    “They are counting on us apparently to endure and literally be the better man. Goodness what white dudes would do if they had to put up with what Asian men have to put up with in this country. I keep imagining this painting”
    -What do asian men have to put up with in this country? Please be specific.

    @ jaehwan
    “If you had any intellectual curiosity, you’d be interested in Asian American history. You’d be interested in the people who created it and challenged it. Of course it feels like styrofoam for you.”
    -Actually I am, but I have no interest when said history is hijacked to serve the politics of racial collectivism and perpetual victimhood.

    “Yup, because instead of sticking to the subject being debated…”
    – I take the time to address each of your arguments, you on the other hand do not reciprocate said thoroughness. You are a master of condescension and instigation, you also have a penchant for misdirection. Sticking to the subject being debated seems to be completely anathema to you. Funny that you have yet to answer any of the questions I asked you.

    “your job is to psychoanalyze the debater or throw random insults based on the debater’s race, gender, or ethnicity in hopes that some HBD generalization will stick.”
    -Nice exaggeration. I wish that you would hold everyone else to the same standard. I think my transgressions are quite mild in comparison to the abuse that has been heaped on me. So much for any semblance of fairness. Apparently you’re ok with double standards.

    “You’ve already talked about how I am supposedly an embarrassment to Korean people, how I supposedly want a White woman, and supposedly learn PUA from the internet, etc. etc. You’re just looking for some personal insult to stick, and the fact that none of these insults are based on anything I actually said is telling. You’re wasting your time.”
    -Tastefully done I might add. Stop playing the victim. And the fact that you’re still bringing up the white woman jab probably means that I hit home with that insult. Sorry? As for being an embarrassment to the korean people, I stand by that particular insult. Your buffoonery is hard for even me to match. Are you normally this rude to anybody you disagree with? Yeah lets see you cop this same attitude in korea, you would have gotten hit by now. Ironic that koreans value politeness, but you seem to think you’re above all that. As for PUA, you keep bringing this up as well, and then you have the audacity to call me a “HBD PUA nuthugger, HBD PUA jockey, etc. etc.” ad nauseum. Whats your deal? Why are you so obssessed with PUA?

    ““I think you try your hardest to find racism even when it isn’t there. From what I have seen thus far, King (who happens to be a black man, the emphasis being all yours.) does seem to be either intellectually lazy/dishonest or maybe just not very bright.”

    Oh, yes, it was a coincidence that you dropped those racialized insults. I’m sure this works great in your HBD community, but again, people here don’t generally subscribe to that.”
    -They could be construed as “racialized” insults if I had hurled them randomly, but seeing as I have plenty of justification on which to base an opinion I fail to see how I am being racist. Also its pretty messed up that you commit a glaring sin of omission by only posting a partial excerpt of what I wrote. Here is what was actually written.

    “I think you try your hardest to find racism even when it isn’t there. From what I have seen thus far, King (who happens to be a black man, the emphasis being all yours.) does seem to be either intellectually lazy/dishonest or maybe just not very bright. I’ll infer that from his occasional eloquence that he is not stupid, just dishonest or deluded.”

    And so it stands, I am of the opinion that king is not stupid, just (intellectually) dishonest, or deluded. Hardly a racialized insult.

    “Oh, jokes about a person’s mother. That’s very original. Maybe that’ll stick? People call you stupid because of your comments, but wow…mother jokes. I’d call that cowardly, but I think I’ve already said that. Dude, we just have different values.”
    -More sins of omission. You have no values as evidenced by the fact that you feel compelled to misrepresent anything that I say. Again here is the original text.

    “Answer me this moron. Why would I want to waste my time in a verbal sparring match with you…someone who I consider a complete moron. Say hi to your white boyfriends’ girlfriends for me moron.”
    -Another stunning example of the highbrow discourse on this blog. I have nothing to say to you. This is certainly asian american intellectualism at its finest…Either that, or you’re a troll. But i’m pretty sure that you’re are for real. Also I can’t say hi to my white boyfriends’ girlfriends because i’m not gay, so how about instead I say hi to your mother.

    See how easy that was? Really, talking trash is nothing special, can we please elevate the quality of discussion here.”

    Again I love how you hold me to a different standard than everybody else. You’re absolutely despicable.

    “I think you might want to go elsewhere. It’s not healthy for you to be here. You really need to get off the web and start seeing life for what it is.”
    -Uh huh, says the guy who started this whole thing. I take it that you realize you’re losing this debate and that your prized paradigm is being shattered. Where’s your heart at? You tired of weasling your way out of legitimate discourse?

    “I agree that it probably took less effort for King to read your megapost than for you to write it. I think that proves that you put way too much effort into your comments, which is quite astounding, considering that it’s virtually all random personal insults.”
    -Not really, pretty much half of what I write is addressing random personal insults towards me.

    “Tune in to the podcast when it’s up. AOR has the courage to stand up and speak for his beliefs, and even though I disagree with him, I’m glad he is standing up and showing his integrity. (I know I said that before”
    -True, as I am doing the same here. I do think AOR is crazy for bothering to debate with you. You’ve shown that you have absolutely no scruples and no interest in creating an environment conducive to a neutral debate. I hope he knows he’s walking into a trap. As for integrity, again, you have none.

    “but you seem to ignore everything anyone posts, so I’m just saying it once more.)”
    -Funny seeing that I respond to almost everything that is written to me. You seem to ignore anything that might poke a hole in your fragile paradigm. I wouldn’t put it past you that you would just start blocking my comments altogether.

    “Give it a listen once it’s up. Best of luck in the future, and peace out. I seriously do”
    -I find it funny that you’re trying to retreat and shore up your image as the reasonable guy, who’s just been trying to work things out this whole time, when in actuality your behavior throughout this whole debacle has been anything but. I would hope that you might one day grow a spine and stop acting like a snake. I seriously do.

    Again Jaehwan, or bigwowo, or whatever it is that you wish to be called, I have legit questions that I want answers from you about. Please stop ignoring these questions and give me some real answers.

    1.How exactly is it that asians are institutionally discriminated against on a widescale?

    2.Specifically what interests are blacks and asians aligned on? Can you give me a few examples?

    3.”If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.”
    -What kind of more equal opportunities do you think asians should be given? Please be specific.

    4.http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434
    -How do you feel about this? How does it impact your current paradigm regarding HBD as a trojan horse for white oppression?

  67. FatCat,

    Don’t tell him what your race is. He’s just looking for some stereotype to stick you with.

    Or…if you tell him your race, think of something exotic and lie. It’ll let us see what other racial stereotypes lurk within his mind.

    -I find it funny that you’re trying to retreat and shore up your image as the reasonable guy, who’s just been trying to work things out this whole time, when in actuality your behavior throughout this whole debacle has been anything but. I would hope that you might one day grow a spine and stop acting like a snake. I seriously do.

    You see, I (and probably most others) think you’re acting like a snake by hiding behind the internet and ducking the dialogue. We just have different standards and values. Haha…it’s VBD–Values Biodiversity. I wish we didn’t have to just accept this, but we just might. Making jokes about one’s mother may be considered witty where you come from, but most people see it as somewhat…well, unoriginal. Sorry.

    I have been more than reasonable. You’ve been hurling racist insults and making momma jokes. You say you have reasons to make the jokes, but I’ve already pointed out how three people of different races can say similar things to you, only to have you respond to them differently based only on the race of the speaker. You notice that when people here insult you, it’s based solely on the comments you make. You, on the other hand, attack people based on their race,using tired old stereotypes.

    You fail to see how HBD has hurt your judgment. Racism kills, man. You see everything through the lens of race, and you can’t make independent judgments or hear what people are saying because you’ve already . I’ve seen it before.

    I do think AOR is crazy for bothering to debate with you. You’ve shown that you have absolutely no scruples and no interest in creating an environment conducive to a neutral debate. I hope he knows he’s walking into a trap. As for integrity, again, you have none.

    HAHAHA…oh, those sneaky, sinister, inscrutable ASIAN PEOPLE!!! HAHAHA…oh brother.

    As you well know, I’m not hosting this podcast; there’s a neutral moderator–Alpha Asian, the one who you say is my PUA instructor (because God knows that every Asian man needs one of those to snare those innocent, unsuspecting White women). I didn’t even get to write the format/agenda for this podcast, which I would have preferred to do. So any accusations of me being sneaky are not based on anything I’ve done or said. Again, stereotypes. Clear your mind, brother!

    Again Jaehwan, or bigwowo, or whatever it is that you wish to be called, I have legit questions that I want answers from you about.

    Just one post ago, didn’t you say that you didn’t give a rat’s ass what I thought? I think you were right the first time. If you did give a rat’s ass, you’d probably reread what I posted earlier rather than asking me once again to spoon feed you. Or you’d step up to the podcast which would allow you to speak and force you to listen.

    I really do want to help you with your problem (and yes, it’s a problem), but I can only do so much through this format.

    The next best thing is to just listen to the podcast when it comes out.

  68. I would be interested to hear what both AOR and AsianDude have to say. I’m quite curious to listen to their takes on HBD.

    Honestly, the idea that race/genetics has an important place in the overall worth of a human being is something I don’t understand and I’d like to know more about what proponents of it have to say. I’d be especially interested to know how they would hold so tightly to the theory of HBD–a theory based on race–when it has been found over and over again that there is no scientific basis for race. Race is not something defined by genetics and therefore has no basis in hard science. I’d like to hear what people have to say to that.

  69. @ Ricecakerabbit
    “I would be interested to hear what both AOR and AsianDude have to say. I’m quite curious to listen to their takes on HBD.

    Honestly, the idea that race/genetics has an important place in the overall worth of a human being is something I don’t understand and I’d like to know more about what proponents of it have to say. I’d be especially interested to know how they would hold so tightly to the theory of HBD–a theory based on race–when it has been found over and over again that there is no scientific basis for race. Race is not something defined by genetics and therefore has no basis in hard science. I’d like to hear what people have to say to that.”
    -Thank you for the relevant and mature response. It is refreshing to be able to actually be able to talk about the issue at hand for once. Kudos to you. As for your contention that race is not defined by genetics, race does not consist of one characteristic, trait or gene. It consists of many characteristics, traits and genes, of a unique combination or ensemble of characteristics, traits or genes that distinguishes one race from another. Does that make sense? So essentially race is more a pattern of certain genetic traits recurring than an actual gene itself. I have a link here for you. It is my hope that you will take the time to check out its claims. Its not a very long video so it won’t take too much time to watch. You should find it ineresting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZurClqPGLc
    (10 fallacies of race denial)

  70. @ jaehwan
    -Its obvious that you’re not above talking down to somebody who chooses not to follow the same agenda that you choose to. I am asian and I don’t feel inclined to support collective racial politics. That is my right. Sorry that you choose to so vehemently disagree.

    “You see, I (and probably most others) think you’re acting like a snake by hiding behind the internet and ducking the dialogue.”
    -What dialogue? The only people here who have made an actual attempt at dialogue has been king (to his credit) and I. If anything you are the one who keeps ducking the dialogue and attempting to obfuscate the issues at hand.

    “I have been more than reasonable. You’ve been hurling racist insults and making momma jokes.”
    -Again more deception and misdirection on your behalf. Additionally you did not address the fact that I am held to a different standard. No doubt an exercise in willful ignorance.

    “You say you have reasons to make the jokes, but I’ve already pointed out how three people of different races can say similar things to you, only to have you respond to them differently based only on the race of the speaker. You notice that when people here insult you, it’s based solely on the comments you make. You, on the other hand, attack people based on their race,using tired old stereotypes.”
    -What stereotypes? I addressed every person appropriately in accordance with the responses that they gave to me.

    “You fail to see how HBD has hurt your judgment. Racism kills, man. You see everything through the lens of race, and you can’t make independent judgments or hear what people are saying because you’ve already . I’ve seen it before.”
    -Says the guy with an entire blog devoted to asians. I take the time to address almost everybody, hardly anybody says anything relevant, especially you. Are you really this delusional?

    “HAHAHA…oh, those sneaky, sinister, inscrutable ASIAN PEOPLE!!! HAHAHA…oh brother.”
    -Do you really see racism here? Really?

    “Just one post ago, didn’t you say that you didn’t give a rat’s ass what I thought? I think you were right the first time. If you did give a rat’s ass, you’d probably reread what I posted earlier rather than asking me once again to spoon feed you. Or you’d step up to the podcast which would allow you to speak and force you to listen.”
    -Again you are leaving out pertinent parts of what I actually said, using only excerpts to try to support what you are saying. So again here is what was actually said:

    “Sooooo mature there. Actually I would prefer anonymity, you seem to be a rather unscrupulous and unprincipled person. And if that makes me what you would deem a coward then so be it. I really hope you’re not under the illusion that I give a rats ass what you think of me.”

    I don’t care what you think about me, but the fact that you are still dodging the simple questions I asked you says volumes.

    “I really do want to help you with your problem (and yes, it’s a problem), but I can only do so much through this format.”
    -Is this 1984? Why do you have such an issue with people having the freedom to hold opinions that may diverge from your own? I’m of the opinion that you’re the one with a rather serious problem. Or perhaps you are just a troll and this whole thing has been some sort of bizarre mockup. But so far it appears that you are very, very serious. Its rather sobering that there are actually people of your mentality out there.

    Again I ask you to quit dodging my questions and give me some answers. Why do you keep ignoring these questions? If your position is stable and well grounded then it should not be hard to field some answers.

    1.How exactly is it that asians are institutionally discriminated against on a widescale?

    2.Specifically what interests are blacks and asians aligned on? Can you give me a few examples?

    3.”If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.”
    -What kind of more equal opportunities do you think asians should be given? Please be specific.

    4.http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434
    -How do you feel about this? How does it impact your current paradigm regarding HBD as a trojan horse for white oppression?

  71. Asian Dude, there really are so many ridiculous things in your posts that it’ going to take an encyclopedia of counter-posting to straighten them all out. (which nobody would read) I don’t know that I’m going to try to deal with every single point that you make at length, but I’ll try to at least show you what I mean.

    Asian Dude: -[King] You cover up your lack of arguments with thinly veiled ad hominem. Some things you seem to understand and then with other things its almost as if you completely miss the subtlety.

    So you post that accusation, then you reply to my point that there is less KKK style violence today with a link to an article about one Black racial incident. Do you even understand what “ad hominem means,” or are you being intentionally ironic? As if the mere existence of an article about Black racists is:

    a) Some kind of shocking news, that none of us knew about
    b) Had any bearing on the actual point, which was that all vestiges of the system of White American supremacy have not disappeared, as you had claimed.

    That is poor reasoning. The fact that there are Black racists, and Asian Racists, and Latino Racists in America does not mean that the primary and entrenched system of racist hierarchical assumptions is untrue. What it does mean is that there has been some progress, in a country where the only racist groups that were allowed to exist where White.

    As for the Black Community and the LA Riots. You equated rioters as an example of the “Black man” oppressing Asians. So I pointed out to you the obvious difference between random racial events that occur during the course of a riot, and institutionally supported, legalized, racism. The idea being that there is no more direct culpability (to Black people in general) for the behavior of a few Blacks in a riot, than there is to Asian people for the Discovery Channel Bomber.

    Your response was that Black people are to blame because they have a unique “dont snitch mentality.” I pointed out, that so does everyone else:
    1) Asians in a Triad controlled neighborhoods
    2) Latinos in Drug Cartel Neighborhoods
    3) Whites in Methamphetamine Gang Neighborhoods
    The reason for this is because no matter what color you are, if people with guns and prison records are threatening to carry out reprisals against you, then you will tend to keep your mouth shut.

    Your brilliant response to this was: -Reprisals from who? White people? No, not white people. You already know from who!

    Um… there are three examples above, and one of them (the third one) IS WHITE people. Are you really this stupid? -BTW, That was a rhetorical question.

    But beyond that, the actual POINT is that anyone who is being coerced by violent criminals (regardless of race) is going to have a no snitch policy. It has nothing to do with race. People anywhere in the world, who live under this threat, react in the same way, So why would you blame Black people, in particular, for doing what everyone does under those circumstances?

    Here is more of your “subtle” and “nuanced” reasoning that we’re all missing:
    “And blacks that don’t think that way wouldn’t be living in the same community as the rioters anyways.”

    —So you think that all the rioters came from the same community.
    —You also think that if you live in a community, that you can instantly tell wether or not the other people who live there will ever riot.
    -Like the people in the Jakarta Riots.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta_riots_of_May_1998
    -Or the Tibetan Riots
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/world/asia/16iht-tibet.4.11148124.html
    -Or the Thai Politcal Riots of 2010
    http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/05/protests_turn_deadly_in_thaila.html
    —Apparently you also think that people can just move from a neighborhood any time that they wish, and that poverty and mobility are completely unrelated.

    And the reason that you believe these things is because you are… Im’ sorry… but it’s because you’re stupid. A Junior high school student is smarter than this.

    Let’s continue:
    “all your examples of other races and snitching only applies to outlier segments of said races. Not snitching and aversion to working with the police seems to be the default attitude in a large amount african american communities.”

    Really? Hmmm… what are the exact numbers on that? Precisely what percentage of the Black community will not cooperate with the police, and under what circumstances? Do you actually know, or are you just talking out of your ass, again?

    Let’s stop here, and I’ll begin a new reply to other issues out of courtesy to those who may be reading.

  72. “Thank you for the relevant and mature response. It is refreshing to be able to actually be able to talk about the issue at hand for once. “

    It’s almost funny the way you keep talking about “refreshing” mature responses are.
    I mean considering the tone of your own responses. :-)

    “Excuse me asshole, we are not horses. Leads me to question who the true racists here are. Thanks for demeaning my knowledge and awareness and insinuating that I am an impressionable, gullible fool. If anything, the impressionable and gullible folks are you all, you buy this fight whitey bullshit hook, line and sinker.”

    BTW, that was from your opening post. Am I missing the “subtlety” and “nuance,” or was that just you being a condescending prick right off the bat?

  73. @N
    Hey, not everyone guy in the universe ‘desires’ white girls more than other girls. If I went home and for some reason finds an undressed Megan Fox lying in my bed waiting for me…
    I would actually call 911 to arrest that crazy girl that broke into my house.

    Liar, lol.

    I want to comment, but it’ll take me a week to read through this thread :).

  74. @ FatCatAttack

    Hey FatCat, I thought it was you! I haven’t heard from you seen you since the final days of the 44s. You’re still hilarious as ever ;-)

  75. King,

    Haha…”Excuse me asshole!” It’s funny, I’ve studied at least three different languages, but I don’t recall ever studying that line as an introduction.

    It’s extra funny if you imagine his introduction taking place in real life. This was a while ago, but did you ever see this video: What if Chat Rooms Were Real?

    Asian Dude:
    You wrote:
    -Its obvious that you’re not above talking down to somebody who chooses not to follow the same agenda that you choose to. I am asian and I don’t feel inclined to support collective racial politics. That is my right. Sorry that you choose to so vehemently disagree.

    Well, sure. It’s your right to think whatever you want, and it’s my right to disagree. So…um…why are we talking about rights again?

    -Is this 1984? Why do you have such an issue with people having the freedom to hold opinions that may diverge from your own? I’m of the opinion that you’re the one with a rather serious problem. Or perhaps you are just a troll and this whole thing has been some sort of bizarre mockup. But so far it appears that you are very, very serious. Its rather sobering that there are actually people of your mentality out there.

    Maybe this whole thing has been some sort of bizarre plan to attract White women, using the pick up skills I learned at Alpha Asian.

    No, really, I have no problem whatsoever with your freedom to hold opinions. If I did, I’d probably just hit the delete button whenever you post. That feature comes built in to WordPress, you know. :)

    But I don’t use that. I want you to have your say. I want you to say whatever it is that crosses your mind on any given day at any given moment. Because you’re THAT special.

  76. @ jaehwan

    Yoda is not allowed to have a girl, ever. Because he is a short, asexual, Martial Arts Master that speaks English using the Japanese structure (why he wasn’t played by an Asian men? No idea I have).

    Secondly, it’s interesting in general that a lot of people love to bring up the issue of rights to Free speech/first amendment when they make a racist comment

  77. @ king
    “So you post that accusation, then you reply to my point that there is less KKK style violence today with a link to an article about one Black racial incident. Do you even understand what “ad hominem means,” or are you being intentionally ironic?”
    -The fact that you think me posting a link about a black racial incident has anything to do with ad hominem perfectly confirms my prior assessment about you. The nuance I was utilizing went over your head. again. I posted the link not to smear blacks but to juxtapose it against the fact that you claim racism (from whites) still exists in spite of the absence of overt KKK style racism. Its pretty funny that you still didn’t understand the point I was trying to illustrate. Goodjob king. Are you being intentionally ironic? Cause right after I lambast you for completely missing the point, you go and do it again. While trying to accuse me of being wrong about it.

    “I think Truth Speaker set you right on his comment on this point. But let me just add that all prejudice is not equal. Just because there is markedly less KKK style racism…”
    -I find it quite disturbing that you seem to think that you are the sole arbiter of what type of prejudice is considered equal. Thats entirely subjective, as well as subject to one’s own personal perception of any given “prejudiced” situation. For me personally, I deem getting jumped and beaten up for no reason other than the color of my skin by a large group of people far worse than having to endure a slur, or an unfriendly attitude. Which is exactly what we saw here:
    -(http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20100824/NEWS01/8240366/Police-say-it-s-very-possible-attacks-near-fairgrounds-had-racial-overtones)
    -And here:(http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39017234/ns/us_news)

    “That is poor reasoning. The fact that there are Black racists, and Asian Racists, and Latino Racists in America does not mean that the primary and entrenched system of racist hierarchical assumptions is untrue. What it does mean is that there has been some progress, in a country where the only racist groups that were allowed to exist where White.”
    -No, you are exactly right. However the reverse line of reasoning is equally true, just because “primary and entrenched system of racist hierarchical assumptions” (may) exist, it does not give a green light to all the other different kinds of racism from other races nor does it justify turning a blind eye to it, or claiming that it is not “as” bad as institutional racism. It is without dispute that the type of racism illustrated in the above two links is definitely the most dangerous type of racism. To me, things like that are much worse than allegations of “institutional racism” that may or may not still exist.

    “What it does mean is that there has been some progress, in a country where the only racist groups that were allowed to exist where White.”
    -So now its good that there is allowed to be other racist groups??? Are you insinuating that some forms of racism are acceptable now? As long as they come from the right groups of people?

    “As for the Black Community and the LA Riots. You equated rioters as an example of the “Black man” oppressing Asians. So I pointed out to you the obvious difference between random racial events that occur during the course of a riot, and institutionally supported, legalized, racism…”
    -I understand fully your reasoning. It is not incorrect. However, you are missing the point. In the context of asian americans in the year 2010, we experience very little institutional racism. The worst kind of racism that we face is in riots like the ones in LA or like what happened in philadelphia. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39017234/ns/us_news) {Funny how I don’t seem to recall a large outcry from the black community about those events, yet if the roles were reversed and instead the victims were black there would be a collective furor about it, and no doubt numerous protests and riots.} What I’m saying here is the same thing I’ve been saying the whole time i’ve been posting here, which is, asians have little to nothing to gain from joining with blacks in a pan-minority alliance contra whites. IF white institutionalized racism exists, asians are not often its victims. And when asians ARE the victims of racism, it doesn’t appear to be whites that are behind the very worst (and violent) examples of it. (Which in all fairness don’t seem to be a very common occurrence, at least not on that magnitude. In any case, I don’t propose unifying asians against blacks, or against whites for that matter. I happen to think that pan-racial contra establishment politics are a thing of the past. The political landscape, as well as collective mindset has shifted. As americans, we now have more pertinent issues that unite us against the establishment other than race. Its more about class now. Which touches on race to a degree but goes much farther beyond that, especially with the dwindling middle class and the growing disparity between the rich and the poor. The poor is increasingly starting to be constituted of people across a wide range of the racial spectrum.

    “Your response was that Black people are to blame because they have a unique “dont snitch mentality.”
    -Not only that but from what I’ve seen it also appears like blacks expect everybody else to be held collectively accountable for some act of racism, yet don’t seem to want to be held accountable themselves if a black person happens to be a perpetrator in a racist crime. You can’t have your cake and eat it. I.E. You refer to whites as a collective entity which you believe most or all are actively or passively participating in a huge anti-minority conspiracy but when it comes to black people all the sudden you’re all individuals, and for some reason its unfair to pass judgement on you all collectively. You’re utilizing two different standards. Remember this?

    “Just because there is markedly less KKK style racism, doesn’t mean that Whites are “bending over backward” to accommodate minorities.”

    “And once the Deal is offered and all of the Asians have left the room, they all have a good laugh, tear down the offered list, and pin up the REAL, and much shorter hierarchy:

    1) White People
    ________________
    2) Everybody Else”

    So king, which is it? Either you and I can both make collective general observations on X race or neither of us can.

    AD: “all your examples of other races and snitching only applies to outlier segments of said races. Not snitching and aversion to working with the police seems to be the default attitude in a large amount african american communities.”
    King: “Really? Hmmm… what are the exact numbers on that? Precisely what percentage of the Black community will not cooperate with the police, and under what circumstances? Do you actually know, or are you just talking out of your ass, again?”
    -Mind if I ask you a question? What are your exact numbers on the amount of whites that participate in passive or subtle racism? Precisely what percentage of whites choose to do that? Do you actually know, or are you just talking out of your ass? Just because exact numbers are not available does not invalidate a particular observation. Going by your logic, most blacks are willing to snitch and white people are never racist.

    “It’s almost funny the way you keep talking about “refreshing” mature responses are. I mean considering the tone of your own responses. :-)”
    -Remember this?

    “And the reason that you believe these things is because you are… Im’ sorry… but it’s because you’re stupid. A Junior high school student is smarter than this.”

    And this?

    “Are you really this stupid? -BTW, That was a rhetorical question.”

    -Its funny considering that you’re still being a condescending prick as evidenced by your most recent responses.

    “Asian Dude, take your pick. Which of your issues would you like me to address next?”
    -My rebuttal to you regarding your perception of genetics, you still haven’t said anything about that.

    @ Jaehwan
    -Yo, you still haven’t answered my questions! Why do you keep dodging them??

    1.How exactly is it that asians are institutionally discriminated against on a widescale?

    2.Specifically what interests are blacks and asians aligned on? Can you give me a few examples?

    3.”If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.”
    -What kind of more equal opportunities do you think asians should be given? Please be specific.

    4.http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434
    -How do you feel about this? How does it impact your current paradigm regarding HBD as a trojan horse for white oppression?

  78. N,

    “@ jaehwan

    Yoda is not allowed to have a girl, ever. Because he is a short, asexual, Martial Arts Master that speaks English using the Japanese structure (why he wasn’t played by an Asian men? No idea I have).

    Secondly, it’s interesting in general that a lot of people love to bring up the issue of rights to Free speech/first amendment when they make a racist comment

    The ultimate irony is that I pay the bills for this website. I’m actually paying good money for the forum that this dork uses to publicize his racist comments. Talk about irony and biting the hand that feeds him.

    Funny on Yoda. You’re absolutely right.

    AD:
    @ Jaehwan
    -Yo, you still haven’t answered my questions! Why do you keep dodging them??

    Yo, I already answered them, and yo, you blew them off. But yo, I don’t care to spoon feed you because I’m making you lazy. So yo, keep on asking.

    I feel like the Zen master who keeps turning down the student who wants to learn. “No, you’re not quite ready to enter the temple.”

  79. Though I’d hate to hijack this thread, just my two cents:

    1. I do agree with the majority of you that racism/discrimination against APAs in America still exists, based both on personal experience and observation. However where I agree with AD (if I’m interpreting his responses correctly), is that it’s not as pervasive and widespread as the majority of you are suggesting. And I also disagree that a few isolated incidences of racism serves as a justifiable reason to lump an entire racial group into one basket, thereby allowing you to call them ALL racists. You then become no different from the teabaggers who claim ALL muslims want to crash planes into buildings, due to a few bad apples. And just the same, you can’t say all whites are racists because of your own personal experiences or observations of a handful few who did discriminate against you or other APAs. You then become no different than those very individuals who were discriminating against you. Everyone is different.

    2. This is the first time I’ve ever encountered the term HBD, and after reading some material on it, some of it makes sense, minus the intelligence part. I don’t think intelligence has anything to do with genetics as much as it does with ones socio-economic background and access to education and resources. So on that, I’ll be looking forward to AOR’s rationale in supporting his arguments.

    3. Most importantly, I don’t think befriending (or heavens, even dating) a non-APA person challenges my loyalty to the APA cause. And I think that many of these glass ceilings are self-imposed by our fellow APA brothers and sisters (ie, that pitiful young man in that photo – who didn’t even have the courage or self-respect to stop it from happening). His issue wasn’t that he made friends with white people, his issue was that he picked the wrong white people to be his friends.

    I don’t think that white people are the enemy, because of the actions of a racist few. Additionally, all this infighting among our OWN brothers and sisters, as opposed to reaching some sort of mutual understanding, is what’s actually hurting us. All this mud-slinging in what should be a forum for intelligent discourse, and challenging one’s motives simply because he doesn’t exactly see it your way, is EXACTLY what’s holding us APAs back from being ONE cohesive group.

    and dude…your recaptcha wants me to type in hebrew, lol.

  80. Hey Ben II,

    I was reading your blog yesterday and was thinking of doing a Dad-like post. Then I realized that yours were better than mine. So I deferred to the master. :)

    1. And I also disagree that a few isolated incidences of racism serves as a justifiable reason to lump an entire racial group into one basket, thereby allowing you to call them ALL racists.

    I’m sure somewhere up in this big thread someone may have said that all White people were racists, but that wasn’t my opinion, nor do I think it’s the opinion of most people here. I think Asian Dude is trying his hardest to paint that as our opinion, but it isn’t. He’s taking people’s mild critique of culture and trying to make it seem like people hate all White people. I’m not sure if it’s intentional or if it’s his limited capacity to understand different opinions. HBD is like a religion, and it hardens one’s mind to the obvious–we’ll talk about this when we record the podcast with AOR.

    Where we may perhaps disagree–or perhaps not–is over the entrenchment of institutional racism. Here’s an example of an Asian Dude statement which I completely disagree with:
    Whites have it just as bad as asians in the media from what i’ve seen. Why? I don’t know why. Its just what i’ve observed.
    It strikes me as absurd. I don’t know anyone who would make this statement in real time on a podcast or videocast. But as it’s just anonymous comments, people say whatever they want.

    2. I disagree that HBD makes sense, but I am looking forward to recording and posting the podcast up. I’ll see if I can address your point in the podcast if possible because I think it’s a very important one.

    3. I agree with you on the IR, but there IS a critical difference when we’re talking about leadership, GIVEN the zeitgeist. I was going to post on the whole IR/leadership thing, but other stuff came up–namely, HBD racism. I’ll post up something that clarifies my own position in the next couple of weeks hopefully.

    It’s hard to have discourse with someone who writes, “Excuse me asshole” on his very first post and who focuses more on insults and misdirection rather than open dialogue. For example, none of the main participants in the discussion espoused the idea that all White people are bad, and yet he argues against that idea as if someone actually said it. He can dig it up if it’s there, but I don’t think it is. Some people have a better ability with dialogue than others.

  81. #2 above: I meant that I disagree that HBD makes sense minus the intelligence part. I think it makes no sense anywhere. I’ll try to address that in the podcast.

  82. to clarify – the little that I did read about HBD, as I understood it (which may be incorrect) concerned itself with genetics playing a role in certain physiological aspects of a human being, as well as aggression or natural ability in certain things. Just like how genetics play a role in females and their dominant skills in language acquisition, and males with their dominant skills in spatial coordination (this is not exclusive, of course. you could very well have females who are horrible in languages and men who have no sense of direction either). In my limited understanding, I simply disagreed on parts of HBD where I believe socio-economics and environment play a role in human development (as opposed to genetics as HBD claims), and certain behaviors are nurtured and not a result of nature.

    And on your point regarding his point on “whites having it as bad as asians”, I’m totally with you on this one. The only instance off the top of my head where your standard WASP would lose out is when affirmative action comes into play (or minority based grants, privileges, etc). But in the grander scheme of things, I don’t think “whites” have it all that bad, and certainly not as bad as asians.

    This is not to say that Asians have it all that bad either. I live pretty comfortably, as do most of my family members. Most of them are college-educated, have good jobs, married other Asians :). I run a successful manufacturing business, and non-APAs crawl over each other to gain my business. Granted, I acknowledge that this sorta paints me in the Model Minority category, but I still believe that opportunity is out there for people who want it. So I stand by my original assessment that while discrimination may still persist, it’s not something that can’t be overcome.

    I can’t speak in support or opposition to HBD because of what little I know of it. So I’ll also be looking forward to the discussion.

    And now that I know you’re reading my blog, I’ll have to be extra careful not to incite the wrath of 200+ comments of mud-slinging when you xpost or critique one of my entries, lol.

    your recaptcha wants me to type in greek now. really?

  83. Hey Ben II- I don’t think most of here are claiming to be oppressed like the way things were 50 years ago. Most of us are pretty grateful to be living in the US, and get along with white folks. The racism we talk about is negative media portrayals, glass ceilings, lack of political representation, pop culture stuff, etc. Anybody new is free to debate these points with us as long as they approach with a civil manner. Asian Dude might even discover this if he bothered to get to know this blog and its members instead of spending his time behaving like a douchebag. This is Jaehwan’s house, and when you go to someone’s house that’s the least you could do.

    On the topic of HBD, I think it’s been overrated and taken advantage of by many racists. Like you said, genetics play a role in physiology, but the environment does the rest. For example, northern Chinese tend to be taller and fairer than southern Chinese. I know many friends and cousins who are inches taller than both their biological parents, something I attribute to healthy diet and good exercise that they could afford living in a country like this, being in middle class.

    On the topic of intelligence, if you use IQ (I agree not the best way to measure someone’s intelligence), the difference between the average IQ of whites and blacks in the U.S. is 10-15 points. Most anyone will tell you that really isn’t much of a difference, and I believe it is mostly due to poverty and poor education access. Studies have shown that if you take black kids and put them in the same study environment as whites and Asians, they tend to do just as well. The fact that their IQ gap with whites have closed within the past 20-30 years supports this. Furthermore, IQ ratings around the world have increased in recent years, most likely due to increase in prosperity.

    What I took exception to Asian of Reason’s way of thinking is the way he overplays the role of HBD to the point where it is used to reinforce negative stereotypes, which lead to my first impression of him as a tool for race hierarchy. I admit my opinion of AoR as a person has changed since he’s proven to be a fairly open-minded guy. I just think that it’s a tragedy when he allowed the stereotype to effect his judgment in regards to his black student. As a teacher, he has the unique privilege to change a young person’s life. It’s tragic to give up on it for the difference of (perceived) 10-15 IQ points.

  84. Here is more about Steve Sailer, the founder of the Human Biodiversity Institute and a leading crusader of this so-called science:

    Human Biodiversity Group
    http://sailerfraud.blogspot.com/2009/09/human-biodiversity-group.html

    Extremist Steve Sailer is Source for CNN’s ‘Black in America’ Series
    http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/07/25/extremist-steve-salier-is-source-for-cnns-black-in-america-series/

    Steve Sailer: A Contemporary Racist Exposed
    http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/jade7243/2009/04/steve-sailer-a-contemporary-ra.php

    Though couched in seemingly innocuous scientific jargon, Human Biodiversity appears to be a more sophisticated–and disguised–version of that ugly tradition of Western scientific racism and eugenics historically embraced by nations like America, White-ruled South Africa, and of course Nazi Germany.

    This “scientific” tradition was thus used to justify White supremacist institutions like American chattel slavery, South African apartheid, and the racial hygiene policies of the Third Reich.

    Today, American scientific racism is used to rationalize racist inequality by claiming that minority groups like African Americans, Latinos, etc. are intellectually inferior due to their genes, and thus incapable of achieving socio-economic parity with Whites as a class.

    It’s a classic “blame the victim” tactic that apologists for American racism/inequality often use.

    Conservatives, American nativists, and White/Anglo nationalists seem to be particularly drawn to this ideology, though it is disturbingly gaining greater support by Mainstream America in general.

    Academic Racists Make Mainstream Inroads
    http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2487

    This is the underlying (White) racist agenda that Asian Dude and Asian of Reason tacitly embrace with their espousal of the “science” of Human Biodiversity.

  85. @ Ben

    I pretty much agree with your opinions (for the most part) about HBD. I feel that there are certainly some physiological genetic advantages/disadvantages, but probably even these can be minimized.

    As for the, White people = BAD.
    People of Color = GOOD

    I’m certainly not saying that at all, nor have I ever believed it. To resurrect an old quote of mine, “You don’t have to dislike White people, to dislike the White favoring System.” This isn’t about individual White people, neither is it about trying to mind read what the “majority” of White people think. What it is about is acknowledging that The System: Political, Financial, Mass Media, was originally created on a foundation of White supremacy/ Minority exclusion, and that there are still some aspects of that foundational privilege to be rooted out, even today. It’s not always conscious, it’s not always overt, and it’s not always mean-spirited, but it’s also not gone, yet.

    However, when you get into Human Biodiversity, and other forms of modern racism, then the racist promoters of these ideas (usually pioneered by a White person) are still likely to see the world in the old White on top / Non-White below paradigm .

    Thus we still get this in racist circles:

    Whites
    ___________
    Everybody Else

  86. Da-yamn. I just don’t have the time to read all this… where do you people find the time? I am guessing there aren’t that many parents of young children here?

    I have nothing to add since racial theories really do depend on one’s own individual experiences – some are just that: theories. All I wanted to say was that perhaps someone should ask my 6′ tall Alpha MAN – if you must know, he’s Asian AND an English teacher – to define \satire\ for him. Seriously. You can’t go around labeling just anything as \satire\. It’s an insult to all the great satirists out there.

  87. @ Leon

    The topic of HBD has intrigued me and I’ve been reading on it, and it seems to me that the foundation of their conclusions *may* be flawed. There’s simply not enough data. A sample size of 200 some kids isn’t going to give you any valid conclusions that should represent 300,000,000. The premise I can sorta agree with on some levels, because if we can inherit non-physiological traits such as temperament, then why not intelligence? But I believe in my readings, they also mention that just because something is genetically predisposed to being a certain way, doesn’t meant that the environment can’t change it. The example they used were seeds from the same plant with the same genetic height potential, but environment played the most important role in determining the final outcome.

    So like you, I do firmly believe that “nurture” plays the largest role in the final outcome…but I also think there might also be room for “nature” as well. But the ones who support the latter haven’t really provided any firm evidence to prove their position.

    On your remark regarding the role of a teacher, I agree with you that it was wrong to attribute the student’s failure due to her race, as opposed to his teaching ability or patience. She may have very well been un-intelligent, but his role as a teacher was to teach, not judge.

    My dissertation (egads, almost 10 years ago) revolved around the portrayal of Asian Americans in mainstream American Media (and politics, public opinion, etc), and my research found that the situation IS improving, though that glass ceiling still exists. Though it’s not as overt as what our ancestors experienced earlier in the 19th-20th century, or what the African-Americans experienced through the 1960s, I agree with most of you that it still exists. But I don’t believe this is something that can change overnight. Though this is merely a drop in the bucket, just look at the past few years:

    – 3 Secretaries of Obama’s cabinet are of Asian Decent (I thought there were more…but they’re there, nevertheless)
    – APA men are starring in heroic, masculine, accent-less English-speaking roles (Well, maybe not Hiro Nakamura, but certainly Ando, Jin and Agent Noh count for something!) I don’t recall any recent occurances of Long Duk Dongs or Charlie Chans, so I think we may be on the right path!

    So in all, I really don’t think we’re doing *too* shabby for just being 5% of the general population. And with the language and cultural barriers slowly eroding (compared to when our ancestors had to deal with these issues), I also believe that this and future generations of APAs have the ability to challenge the status quo. And I believe they’re doing it now.

  88. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study

    Didn’t Chris Rock say something along the lines of “There ain’t no black people in Minnisota. The only two black people you ever heard of coming out of Minnisota is Prince and Kirby Puckett!!!”

    My point is (and I may be wrongly assuming), that being a minority *may* produce some skewed results because the educational experience may be different.

    along with the sample size, of course.

  89. Asian Dude,

    I think that trying to answer your every point is going to be counterproductive. If you and I were having this discussion in a closed-loop email, we could go on like this forever. But as it stands, our posts are just going to get longer and longer, as we take issue at greater detail with one another’s posts.

    Every medium has it’s limits, and I believe that we’re pressing the limits on this one. I’ll address specific points and make some of my own, but I think that we both must be selective and use a measure of restraint in keeping the points to a few at a time and relatively shorter.

    Obviously, you can do what you want, but I’m just telling you what I’m doing and why.
    I’ll address your rebuttal regarding your perception of genetics, following my next post.

  90. @BenII

    Hmmmm….Bobby Lee. And Dr. Ken’s role in Hangover.
    And the problem is that I don’t want just be “Doing well since we are just 5% of America”.
    I want my kids to grow up to have exactly the same opportunities as the white kid next door or across the road in both the work and love lives (which really is most of the life) and not be disadvantaged in any way because of their skin color.

  91. @N

    I stand corrected :). My comment was never meant to trivialize the APA plight in mainstream media…but maybe perhaps exhibit my dismal knowledge of mainstream media :). I’ve only been exposed to Bobby Lee in passing (I actually had to google him to see who you were talking about), and I too was also appalled at Dr. Ken’s character in The Hangover. But to his credit, he did have roles in Knocked Up and Couples Retreat that weren’t exactly caricatures of the stereotypical Asian guy (aside from being the guy working in the medical field).

    I also agree that “doing well” isn’t enough…we want to be doing “exceptionally well”. But I also want to be realistic in acknowledging that America isn’t exactly a level playing field for APAs. I want it to be, and will do my part to try to make that happen – if not for me, than for my kids. But sometimes what we desire, and what is actual reality doesn’t always necessarily align with one another. We can try in earnest to make changes for the better, but it doesn’t always guarantee results. But that shouldn’t stop us from trying nevertheless.

    In terms of educational opportunities though, I do believe that the playing field is somewhat equal….in fact, it may even tilt in the favor of minorities (because of affirmative action, minority scholarships, grants, etc). But nevertheless, I believe that parents play a big role in the future of their children. I remember having to wake up at 5am every morning during HS to walk 45 minutes in order to catch a 1.5 hour bus-ride because I lived in a blue-collar, *disadvantaged* neighborhood – and my parents wanted me to go to a more prestigious HS. After realizing the hardship I was experiencing, my parents moved us closer to my HS, thereby sacrificing their own commutes so that I wouldn’t have to. In hindsight, I realize that not every family possesses that kind of patience or dedication…but I also believe that if there’s a will, there’s a way.

    As I mention in my most recent post though, I’m not as concerned about my son’s educational opportunities (because I’m sure he’ll be fine) as I am with his perception of himself, his peers and his environment while growing up. All the intelligence in the world can’t fix a traumatic childhood, one that may potentially leave him with a permanent chip on his shoulder.

  92. @ Asian Dude

    In a nutshell, my objections to your HBD characterizations using the L.A. riots as a case study in:
    1) How the Black Community are “oppressors” and natural enemies of Asians, and;
    2) How Black people (as a whole) are to blame, because of the uniquely Black “no snitch” policy;
    goes as follows.

    Your most basic problem (as I understand your position) is that you already hold an incorrect evolutionary belief, that Black people are genetically imprinted with certain undesirable traits that others either do not possess, or possess in much lower quantity. Because you already believe this, when you observe events, you see them with your bias firmly in place, and misjudge accordingly.

    This takes us to the Los Angeles riots of 1992.

    Sparked by the verdict acquitting all four officers in the Rodney King beating incident of assault, Los Angeles erupted into racial unrest and rioting, peaking in intensity over the next two to three days. The city fell into widespread lawlessness, which grew people saw it as an opportunity to commit theft and mayhem without being prosecuted. The violence began in the Florence and Normandy area, a mostly Black area, since Rodney King was Black and the officers were seen as symbols of the White establishment, however violence quickly spread, and soon included opportunists from all races.

    One of the biggest tragedies that occurred during the riots was the violence and theft perpetrated by some Black youths against Korean Merchants and businesses. There had been some pressures building between the two communities in the years prior to the riots, but of course, there was NO excuse that can be given for the initiation of violence by Black youth against Korean businesses. This violence was unprovoked, and completely unfair, it was a disgrace.

    But, the Black population in the City of Los Angeles was over 350,000 in 1992. What percentage% of Black people do you think where down there attacking Korean Stores? A very miniscule ratio, compared to the whole population, to be sure. That certainly doesn’t make the actions of the guilty, any less egregious, but it also doesn’t translate into “The Black Community was attacking Asians, either.”

    The problem with ANY riot is that violence and scapegoating often go hand in hand with social chaos. It’s always wrong, — it’s always horrible. However, when the culprits are Black, it should be seen no differently than when they’re Asian, White, or Latin.

    The Indonesian riots of May 1998
    From Wiki
    “The rioting started after four students from Trisakti University were shot dead during a demonstration on 12 May 1998. After the funeral the following day, rioting started outside the university, with police and military offices and cars as the major targets. The riots became more widespread on 14-15 May 1998 and quickly turned into a pogrom targeting properties and businesses owned by ethnic-Chinese (Chinese Indonesian), who were made into scapegoats. Many shops put up signs such as “Milik pribumi” (“Owned by native Indonesian(s)”) or “Pro Reformasi” (“Pro-reformation”). Otherwise, shops owned by ethnic Chinese were looted and burned. There were also dozens of documented accounts of ethnic Chinese women being raped. Following the riots, allegations of mass rape of ethnic Chinese women were made, forcing the Government to establish a fact-finding team to investigate the riots and rapes. The team found that elements of the military had been involved in the riots, some of which were deliberately provoked. It also verified 66 rapes of women, the majority of whom were Sino-Indonesian, as well as numerous other acts of violence against women”

    So, how is this any different than the L.A. riots, except in this case, it was Asian vs. Asian, and in the LA riot, the Blacks weren’t raping Asian women?
    Should we then hold ALL of the Indonesian people collectively responsible? Is this all due to some “no snitch policy” among the Indonesians? Why don’t the “good ones” move away from neighborhoods where people are prone to engage in rioting?

  93. @ king
    “I think that trying to answer your every point is going to be counterproductive.”
    -I take it that your original reasoning didn’t hold up to my response? I suppose that’s why you’re singing a different tune now. Fair enough. In any case, I’m pleased to see that in your latest response you’ve now taken it upon yourself maintain a modicum of politeness. I will be more than happy to reciprocate in turn.

    @ Ben II
    -Howdy, thank you for your reasoned and well thought out responses, I’m thankful that you took the time to read what I have actually been saying as opposed to just baselessly attacking me.

    “I do agree with the majority of you that racism/discrimination against APAs in America still exists, based both on personal experience and observation.”
    -I agree with that statement as well. You interpreted my responses correctly. The crux of my argument is that although small scale racism does exist, I fail to see the existence of widescale institutionalized anti-asian racism. IF it does exist, it does not appear to affect asians. So why whip up everybody into a frenzy and try to pretend like it does? To me that just seems dishonest.

    “I don’t think intelligence has anything to do with genetics as much as it does with ones socio-economic background and access to education and resources.”
    -Why not all of those factors? Nature + nurture. Regarding genetics, Seeing as how the seat of intelligence, as well as personality derive from the brain, why would the brain be exempt from genetic inheritance while the rest of the body is influenced by genes?

    “ie, that pitiful young man in that photo – who didn’t even have the courage or self-respect to stop it from happening). His issue wasn’t that he made friends with white people, his issue was that he picked the wrong white people to be his friends.”
    -Well I mean, hell I know that nobody would agree with me here, but I don’t really think it was that big of a deal. Would it make me feel uncomfortable if I were him? Probably. But in all seriousness, just because they did that does not mean that they hate asians or are bad people. I imagine any of them would jump at the chance to get the opportunity to be able to learn about asian culture by traveling to china or japan for example. The most likely scenario is that they did not think about how their asian friend would feel about it. (I never heard anything from him about the picture, its a possiblity he wasn’t even offended.)

    “And on your point regarding his point on “whites having it as bad as asians”, I’m totally with you on this one.”
    -Hey Ben, just a point of clarification. I was referring to whites having it as bad as asians with regards to media representation.

    @ leon
    “The racism we talk about is negative media portrayals, glass ceilings, lack of political representation, pop culture stuff, etc.”
    -Asians are only 5% of the US population. Realistically, what can you expect? Especially with regards to political representation.

    “Anybody new is free to debate these points with us as long as they approach with a civil manner. Asian Dude might even discover this if he bothered to get to know this blog and its members instead of spending his time behaving like a douchebag.”
    -Behaving like a douchebag? I’ve been approached with anything but a civil manner. Remember this Leon?

    “You guys are like cockroaches, constantly popping back in these discussions with your garbage no matter how many times you get stomped. The fact that you claim to be Asian makes you even more pathetic, exactly the type that I was talking about.”

    “Do humanity a favor and go get sterilized. My skin crawls at the thought of you misrepresenting the rest of us Asians.”

    Absolutely amazing your hypocrisy. Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw rocks.

    “Studies have shown that if you take black kids and put them in the same study environment as whites and Asians, they tend to do just as well.”
    -Can you cite this?

    “The fact that their IQ gap with whites have closed within the past 20-30 years supports this. Furthermore, IQ ratings around the world have increased in recent years, most likely due to increase in prosperity.”
    -Are you referring to the flynn effect? As I understand it, everybodys iq has been raising, up to a point though. I believe it tapers off at some point IIRC.

    @ Larry
    -I will take the time to address your point later, as this post is already too long. But regarding your assertion that HBD is actually part of an “underlying (White) racist agenda”, what do you think of this? (http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434) Hardly what you could consider dupes for the (white) racist agenda.

    @ Jaehwan
    “but that wasn’t my opinion, nor do I think it’s the opinion of most people here. I think Asian Dude is trying his hardest to paint that as our opinion, but it isn’t. ”
    -Why do you persist in intentionally misrepresenting my position? My main point of contention is that white institutionalized racism, IF it does still exist, does NOT affect asians. The fact that you still refuse to answer my questions about how asians are discriminated against on a widescale speaks volumes.

    “I’m not sure if it’s intentional or if it’s his limited capacity to understand different opinions. HBD is like a religion, and it hardens one’s mind to the obvious–we’ll talk about this when we record the podcast with AOR.”
    -I think the one with the hardened mind is you. You consistently fail to make any real arguments. Only a bunch of name calling, blame gaming, and subject swapping. Your deception and unscrupulousness is on display for anybody to see. Assuming you don’t start deleting comments.

    “here we may perhaps disagree–or perhaps not–is over the entrenchment of institutional racism.”
    -I fail to see how the media could reasonably be construed as entrenched, institutional racism. If being shit on in TV or movies is all we have to worry about then I’m not really that concerned. You would really get butthurt just because theres no asians on tv? Don’t forget, we are only 5% of the population.

    AD: “Whites have it just as bad as asians in the media from what i’ve seen. Why? I don’t know why. Its just what i’ve observed.”
    Jaehwan: “It strikes me as absurd. I don’t know anyone who would make this statement in real time on a podcast or videocast. But as it’s just anonymous comments, people say whatever they want.”
    -What’s so absurd about it. Its a valid observation. I’ve posted some examples below.

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdZEuW9tjHY)
    PSP commercial. The white guy looks dumb, black kid looks cool.

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHqDPOXJRzY)
    Dentyne commercial. I have nothing against interracial dating, but I know you would be mad if this was a white guy and an asian chick.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgpxJrpmMM8&feature=related
    aleve commercial. Whites are portrayed as clueless until the saavy black person comes along.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYgFjBDoHNA&feature=related
    gatorade commercial. The implication is quite obvious, before 1965 sports were boring and white, and after they were exciting and mostly black.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91ZqSoz–Os&p=D6156B678F924DE5&playnext=1&index=3
    levis commercial. More interracial romance, which I reiterate I do not mind. However people like you complain that they always show white guys with asians girls so yeah its pretty relevant.

    I can go on and on like this jaehwan, I can match you tit for tat when it comes to bias in the media. Just because you deny something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. As it stands, asians are whites are discriminated against in the media. Quite possibly blacks and latinos as well. But I haven’t really noticed that trend as much. Again as I said, I don’t know why this is, but its just something I’ve observed. Maybe its a marketing thing?? You assume its a sinister, covert form of institutional racism but I think there is probably a more mundane explanation for it. Maybe it sells?

    “It’s hard to have discourse with someone who writes, “Excuse me asshole” on his very first post and who focuses more on insults and misdirection rather than open dialogue.”
    -More projection. I invite anybody to read the prior comments and you’ll see exactly what I mean.

    Leon: “It’s all a trap, and many Asians fall for it. What’s the best way to train a horse? With the whip or with kindness? Obviously you train it with kindness. You pet it, you say how much better it is compared to the other animals, and eventually the horse will become tame and let you put a saddle on its back.”
    Asian Dude: “Excuse me asshole, we are not horses.”

    I guess that I should take kindly to the fact that leon just compared most asian people to horses? Just because some of us don’t think the same way you all do you belittle us by comparing us to animals?

    “For example, none of the main participants in the discussion espoused the idea that all White people are bad, and yet he argues against that idea as if someone actually said it. He can dig it up if it’s there, but I don’t think it is. Some people have a better ability with dialogue than others.”
    -Actually, I am arguing against the fact that everyone here blames white racism/white led institutionalized racism for their problems. I am only calling for a more nuanced view of the situation. As opposed to just blaming whitey.

    Truthspeaker: “I’m sure they might be, but white people as a whole are slowly destroying, basically, the whole world.”

    That quote pretty much sums up your alls’ myopic mindset.

    “Talk about irony and biting the hand that feeds him.”
    -Would you rather me not voice a diverging opinion? Would you rather everybody be forced to agree with you? That is how it appears to me. Remember, it was you who originally went on AOR’s blog and attacked him on his own page for the views he espoused within. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

    “Yo, I already answered them, and yo, you blew them off. But yo, I don’t care to spoon feed you because I’m making you lazy. So yo, keep on asking.”
    -Actually the only thing I recall you saying is that you said that asians are discriminated against in the media. Especially that whole last airbender debacle (crumbs!) You haven’t answered anything jaehwan and that leads me to believe that you really don’t have a foundation to stand on. Why do you keep trying to evade the questions? It appears to me that you’re banking on the fact that nobody will read through all the comments to see that in fact you haven’t answered anything at all. Again I will ask you these questions, if you really felt as strongly as you say you do, then you would have no problem answering these questions.

    1.How exactly is it that asians are institutionally discriminated against on a widescale?

    2.Specifically what interests are blacks and asians aligned on? Can you give me a few examples?

    3.”If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.”
    -What kind of more equal opportunities do you think asians should be given? Please be specific.

    4.http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434
    -How do you feel about this? How does it impact your current paradigm regarding HBD as a trojan horse for white oppression?

    All of these questions are perfectly legitimate. The fact that you insist on not answering them only damages your credibility.

  94. @ king
    “In a nutshell, my objections to your HBD characterizations using the L.A. riots as a case study in:
    1) How the Black Community are “oppressors” and natural enemies of Asians, and;
    2) How Black people (as a whole) are to blame, because of the uniquely Black “no snitch” policy;”
    -It went over your head, for the third or fourth(?) time. Also it was not an HBD characterization, what I am drawing attention to is the fact that Asian Americans have more to fear from blacks than from whites or white institutionalized racism. It doesn’t matter whether or not the violence from blacks was intended to be racist towards asian people, the only thing that matters is that it happened. So when you say “Hey all you asians need to ally with blacks against the white power structure!” I am merely pointing out that from a logical standpoint, this is not very rational. We’re no longer antagonized by whites or the white power structure, these days whenever asians are antagonized on a broad scale (violently I might add) its from blacks. Why are you having such a difficult time grasping this? And no im not on your case because your black, the very simple fact of the matter is, you just don’t get what is being said. The point keeps on going over your head and you just don’t seem to realize it. What gives??

    (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39017234/ns/us_news) What a few asian kids did to deserved to get jumped by over SEVENTY people is beyond me. Oh wait I forgot, this is somehow the fault of white racism right?

  95. Asian Dude,

    Another of your comments just got caught in the moderation queue, and I had to approve it. I think I’m going to open a paypal account so that you can pay me a dollar whenever I have to do that.

  96. “-I take it that your original reasoning didn’t hold up to my response? I suppose that’s why you’re singing a different tune now.”

    If it makes you feel better to think so… by all means.

    It doesn’t mean I won’t refute your points. I just think that enough of them are self refuting.

  97. “-It went over your head, for the third or fourth(?) time.”

    For someone who’s so loves to imagine the world, in terms of his befuddled ideas going over people’s heads, you seem to have quite a knack for missing the point.

    It doesn’t matter whether or not the violence from blacks was intended to be racist towards asian people, the only thing that matters is that it happened.

    Please explain where anywhere in my post I was discussing whether of not their was any intent of racism? To the contrary, it’s quite clear that the guilty parties in the LA riots were rampant racists… why do you think they were attacking people of one ethnicity?

  98. Asian Dude- You need to work on your reading comprehension. I compared most Asians to horses? Really? I said many. And I specifically was talking about those who promote racist stereotypes, as anybody who actually bothered to read everything that’s been written before posting. I did not say Asians who befriend whites are tools. Nor did I say that of Asians who have different opinions. We’re the ones who are trying to fight these stereotypes that are being reinforced by flimsy “science” like HBD. We prefer to treat everyone as individuals and not condemn them by virtue of them simply being born with “flaws”.

    You’re the one who took it personally and you addressed me as “asshole” in your first post. I admit I was immature to react the way I did. And I have changed my impression of Asian of Reason, who sought us out and engaged us in discussion without a chip on his shoulder, and I’ve said so when I addressed BenII. You’re the one who refuses to accept that WE happen to have a different opinion. You’ve dismissed our viewpoints, you trivialized our individual experiences (some of us have faced racism and discrimination, you know). This is OUR space to have these discussions and sometimes to vent, and you’re here just to belittle what we’re doing. Before everyone else had a chance to contribute, you’ve dismissed EVERYONE here as sheep, without bothering to see if anybody might share your views.

    Here’s a thought, which is more ridiculous: The idea that a white majority who, with a recent history of racial discrimination, might still struggle with their after effects, or the idea that all the blacks, Asian, and Hispanic minorities are banding together, and through their blogs, websites and civil rights movements, are engaging in some mass conspiracy to tear the innocent white man down?

    You want to discuss this, fine. It’s always been in our policy here to accept opposing views. You seem to have some interesting ideas, and we might even bother to listen to you if you’ll just drop that condescending tone and actually listen to what others have to say.

    Here’s a ladder. Maybe it’ll help you climb down from that high horse.

  99. AD,

    Wow, you found five commercials (that I admit I didn’t bother to watch in their entireties because I didn’t feel like wasting my time.). I guess that proves that the media discriminates against White people. They should start a White Actors Equity group to fight for equal representation. And while they’re at it, they should have a White CEO Equity group to encourage American companies to hire more White CEOs, especially CEOs at media companies. If they bring more White people into power in Hollywood and in the print media, that’s the best way to stop anti-White discrimination in Hollywood.

  100. Please explain why high SES blacks score lower on the SAT than low SES whites (and presumably low SES Asians).

    http://lagriffedulion.f2s.com/

    This statistic is probably one of the best arguments for HBD.

    Should East Asians support affirmative action in university admissions when it negatively impacts them as a group? Blacks and Hispanics are being favored by the white power structure at the expense of Asians. Since over 70% of blacks support affirmative action (both at the workplace and at the university) could we say that Asians must also support it for black and Asian interests to be aligned? An Asian with an SAT of 1550 is comparable to a black with a SAT of 1100 after controlling for all significant factors.

    http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2010/07/how_diversity_punishes_asians.html

    I would also like to know what”equal opportunities” you think should be given to Asians. Should their be quotas for them in political positions? Executive positions?

    I will agree that Asians face a certain amount of discrimination in American society. All groups do. I have been discriminated against. By white people, black people, hell, even Asian people!

    My evaluation of relevant literature has led me to conclude that HBD is the truth. I welcome further examination of the human genome so that HBD can be validated. As long as liberals are allowed to write on the premise that HBD is not true and all groups have potential equal distributions of intelligence then I should be allowed to write on the premise that HBD is true. You are free to make your own conclusions based on your evaluation of the evidence.

  101. AD:

    I’m sure you’re an intelligent person (and this may or may not have anything to do with genetics :)). And though I may get some flack for this, I do see some of your points. Where we may diverge however, is your angle of approach; you may have something great like a surf and turf dinner, but when you’re presenting it on a garbage can lid….that’s what everyone’s going to be focused on.

    After reading about HBD further in detail, you have to understand my skepticism related to any study that theorizes that one race is superior than the other, in ANY areas of human development…under the guise of science. Nazi Germany, and pre-abolition America did that (and it appears like they’re trying to repeat history, in the name of science) – both of which are black eyes in the history of humankind.

    This doesn’t meant that I’m totally disagreeing with the concept though: however, HBD hasn’t presented any conclusive evidence that one race is superior than the other in terms of intelligence (because let’s face it, most of the debates out there on HBD talk primarily about intelligence heretibility) as a function of primarily genetics. Despite their best efforts to make these tests culture-neutral, I don’t think it’s fair to have an outsider to guage the intelligence of an indigenous group based on his/her own metrics and beliefs as to what should be universally known. The tests themselves are flawed. Ergo, the results may be flawed as well.

    As I mentioned in subsequent posts, I DO believe that there *may* room for both nature AND nurture. So I’m with you on this one. However, science and sociology has yet to come up with enough emperical data that is objective enough to make the case for “nature”. As I mentioned, a sample set of 200 some kids (in the Minnisota trans-racial study) hardly provides enough evidence that would be applicable to 300 million people, much less 7 billion. So for the time being, I’m still a strong believer that nurture plays the largest role in human intelligence development. This doesn’t mean that I’m completely disagreeing with you, but rather, the *science* has yet to convince me to believe that what they’re saying is the unequivocal truth.

    As for that asian kid’s friends in the photo, I don’t think that they did that maliciously to hurt the kid, and in their minds they probably thought they were funny. But this doesn’t make it right. I used to be that asian kid in that photo, because speaking out would’ve countered my adolescent goals for acceptance and belonging (and in hindsight, I realize this was the wrong perspective). Where would I go to make friends if I’m the ONLY APA guy in a 50 mile radius? Hence my argument that he should’ve spoken up anyway, or made some new white friends (as I had done). If they were his real friends they would’ve adjusted their “humor” accordingly. I don’t doubt for one second they may want to travel to Asia someday…but their actions at that very moment were unequivocally insensitive. Both parties are to blame. The white kids for their behavior, and the asian kid for not speaking up, thus allowing it to happen. The worst thing about this photo (that I take most issues with) is that Miley Cyrus is one of the girls making the slanted eyes…she’s supposed to be a role model.

    As far as Hollywood goes, I do think there are improvements, though there are still a handful of actors who will play the caricatures in order to get ahead in entertainment. But I don’t think it’s getting “shit on” as you put it, as much as it is Hollywood’s treatment of anything asian (men) in general (I say men, because they *did* cast Lucy Liu as one of the Charlies Angels…but that’s a whole ‘nother post right there). Personally, I don’t think it’s “crumbs” when one of my most beloved childhood heros “Goku” is played by a white guy, and I’m sure others feel the same way about The Last Airbender. But like you, I agree that it’s all about what the studios consider to be *marketing*. But that still doesn’t make it right. They should at the very least respect the integrity of the original work. I mean, if they make John Leguizamo play the Monkey King, you best believe there’s going to be a lot of pissed off people!

    As far as the LA riots go, I think everyone is oversimplifying it a little bit. It’s not that the Blacks were targeting “just” the Korean businesses…there just happen to be alot of them there. EVERY business was being looted and burned. I realize that Korean-owned businesses accounted for half of the damage, but consider – in a total state of anarchy, do you think the belligerents really cared who pulled the trigger first? As far as either party was concerned, the other side started it and they were merely retaliating against that one specific group. Moreover, there are other variables at play here as well. You’ve got an angry Black population as a result of the court ruling, and you’ve got Korean leaders calling their compatriots to arms. It was a recipe ripe for disaster. And not just that…in my humble opinion, if you’re going to open up a business in a high-crime area, do you have a right to complain when a crime finally/actually occurs at your place of business? While Koreans had every right to establish their businesses where ever they wished, does this mean that they’re immune to any negative consequences which may potentially occur?

    So to (kinda) address your point about blacks oppressing asians (or rather, blacks being more oppressive than whites towards asians, generally speaking), I’m not sure if this isolated incident represents what the mentality in other African-American enclaves where many asian-owned businesses are present. As anecodotal evidence, my family business supplies foodstuffs to primarily asian-owned restaurants, grocers and other wholesalers, 80% of which are located in predominantly African American neighborhoods (I, myself, also used to own a restaurant in one). These businessowners have the capital to provide a product or service (unlike the local population) with the only consideration being crime (of which there were plenty) and competition (of which there were little or none). While the business owners will always be wary of their relatively high-crime environment, both parties acknowledge that they benefit from that business being there (residents get their valued product/service, and the business earns their money free of competition).

    On a tangent, if you ever get the opportunity to go to a chinese take out in Prince Georges County, MD, most of the Chinese restaurants have a bulletproof glass between the counter and the kitchen/cashier. In West Baltimore, the neighborhood grocer stocks all its items behind a bulletproof glass, and the patrons tell the cashier what they want and the cash and goods are exchanged through a revolving plexiglass window. They’ve adapted to the situation, And while I acknowledge that the xenophobia is still there, I don’t believe there’s any tension brooding between either party. It’s just all in a day’s work.

    Where I disagree with you is that I believe institutional racism DOES exist and it DOES affect APAs. Over time, these forms of institutionalized racism (media portrayals mostly) can and will be internalized. Maybe not by you or me, but potentially other individuals who may accept this as the status quo, the price for living as a minority in white-dominated culture. It’s easy (and short-sighted) to say “oh, that’s their problem for being so simple minded and easily influenced”, but that still doesn’t make the original offense any less valid. Just because it takes a strong person to break through a glass ceiling doesn’t make it okay that a glass ceiling was there in the first place.

    Where I do agree with you is that it’s not as pervasive to the point where the entire APA population should be roused to DEFCON 1. However, it is still a valid concern, and therefore should be appropriately addressed. I mentioned earlier that there IS progress, in that we DO have masculine, english-speaking, main character roles for APA men in primetime TV or blockbusters. We do have some comedians lingering around playing to the stereotypes, but consider 20 years ago when NEITHER were main characters in prime-time or movies.

    And IMHO, I think that the comparison of media portrayals of APAs and Whites can be a little tricky, because there are too many variables at play. You have to consider the composition of the target audience, the quantity of these types of commercials, as well as the message the commercial is trying to convey. In the grand scheme of things, negative portrayals of APAs on tv/movies *may* have a larger impact that negative portrayals of whites based merely on the amount of screen time APAs get compared to their white counterparts. A one inch hole in a rowboat can do considerably more damage than a one inch hole in an air craft carrier. If both APAs and Whites were getting equal screen time, then your examples *may* be more valid, but we know this is not the case. APAs are not getting equal screen time…therefore any negative portrayals make for a larger percentage of total screen time APAs get in the first place.

    I’m with you on the mindset that demonizing “whitey” isn’t exactly the way to go. But I’m not sure if everyone on this forum is saying just that. It might be your interpretation, or maybe their delivery was unclear to you. But what I would also add that we all need to work together (asians with asians, asians with non-asians) to build consensus, air our grievances and find solutions. Finger pointing doesn’t solve any problems. Based on my interpretation of your comments, there doesn’t seem to be a problem in the first place. But if you would like to engage in some one-on-one civil discourse to discuss these matters, I think we can do that. I am genuinely interested in your opinions, but it’s difficult to weed them out when everyone’s talking in tangents (I may be guilty too), spewing hate, pointing fingers and having a free-for-all pissing contest.

    Everyone else:
    I don’t sincerely think that AD’s being a troll here, with a conscious effort to incite discord on this thread. Defensive? Maybe (which is understandable because it’s him against everyone else :)). Insincere? Probably not. So IMHO, cutting off the debate makes us no different from AoR and his student that didn’t quite grasp the concepts he was trying to teach/present – with AoR discontinuing his role as teacher simply because “that’s the way she is” and AoR’s lack of patience.

    I think that he’s sincere in trying to prove his points (some of which I disagree with). But Trolls don’t write 1000 words per entries just to prove their position :). And if he’s willing to have a civil dialogue as a means to reach consensus, I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. Anyone wiling to press the reset button on this?

  102. @ AoR

    Like you, I don’t exactly agree with Affirmative Action either; not because NAMs get an advantage over me, but because I believe that I should earn my keep without any handicaps considered. As I posted earlier, the fact that I lived in a *disadvantaged* neighborhood didn’t prevent me from pursuing a quality education.

    As far as your article goes, I don’t think SAT scores are the end-all and be-all for college admissions. Though they play a huge role, having a perfect score and a 4.0 gpa only tells me that the kid is good at performing well on exams. The article doesn’t consider the student’s leadership, extracurricular activities, etc – which I also believe plays a role in the admissions process. IMHO, I don’t think that your students with 2400 SAT scores and 4.0’s have the luxury of time to pursue these other activities which may help bolster their chances for admission.

    I’ll concede that it is unfortunate that academically more-qualified APAs were turned down in favor of less academically qualified NAMs, but I want to give these universities the benefit of the doubt that Affrimative Action wasn’t the *only* reason why these APAs were turned down.

  103. BenII- actually, I do, considering how this discussion is actually turning back toward something more productive and I’d hate to kill it for sake of my pride. Asian Dude- I apologize for the way I addressed you in the beginning of this conversation. Asian of Reason- I apologize for the way I portrayed you in my initial post. You two are entitled to your opinions.

    AoR- to address your recent posts, I’d say that the SAT isn’t a measure of intelligence, but education. I am not completely against the idea of HBD, but whether it could address issues of intelligence to the point of explaining the gap in SAT scores remain to be seen. The fact that statistics show the correlation between increase of income and scores shows the greater role that environment plays.

    To explain the gap, I personally believe it’s educational access, upbringing and culture, again these being environmental factors. Black students generally are not schooled well to perform in these tests. Public schools in black neighborhoods are usually underfunded and understaffed. Even high black achievers in these schools fall behind their white counterparts because of poor quality of education. For example, in math, 47% of white testers have taken trigonometry in HS compared to 35% of black testers. In English courses, 87% of white testers have completed American literature courses compared to 75% of blacks. Furthermore, black students are rarely placed on the path to honors and advanced placement courses due to school counselors having lower opinions of their scholastic chances.

    As for culture, many prominent blacks have placed the blame on black parents and predominant black pop culture that do not emphasize education. Not being within these cultures, I am not really qualified or experienced to go into detail. Suffice to say, many blacks do accept responsibility for this disparity. All of these things point toward the possibility that the gap CAN close, with the proper amount of work.

  104. “The fact that statistics show the correlation between increase of income and scores shows the greater role that environment plays.”

    Correlation does not imply causation.

    “Despite their best efforts to make these tests culture-neutral, I don’t think it’s fair to have an outsider to guage the intelligence of an indigenous group based on his/her own metrics and beliefs as to what should be universally known. The tests themselves are flawed. Ergo, the results may be flawed as well.”

    Somewhat agree. Intelligence tests predict “success” as we define it in the westernized world. So they might not accurately gauge “intelligence” in non-western peoples based on their own beliefs and metrics. But if this is the case, then we should not expect the same western-defined success from these groups.

    On College Admissions

    . They also show how Asians must do substantially better than whites in order to reap the same probabilities of acceptance to these same highly competitive private colleges. On an “other things equal basis,” where adjustments are made for a variety of background factors, being Hispanic conferred an admissions boost over being white (for those who applied in 1997) equivalent to 130 SAT points (out of 1600), while being black rather than white conferred a 310 SAT point advantage. Asians, however, suffered an admissions penalty compared to whites equivalent to 140 SAT points.

    I’m assuming that controlling for a variety of background factors includes controlling for extracurricular activities/leadership etc. Not a perfect science, but I would imagine the designers of the analysis would have took those into account. In any case, the difference is around TWO standard deviations which is quite shocking.

    On the Gap

    “To explain the gap, I personally believe it’s educational access, upbringing and culture, again these being environmental factors. Black students generally are not schooled well to perform in these tests. Public schools in black neighborhoods are usually underfunded and understaffed. Even high black achievers in these schools fall behind their white counterparts because of poor quality of education.”

    Black people do not all live in in poor urban areas. Very few high SES/high education blacks live in low-income areas (unless you count high-level drug dealers?). So this point does not address why high SES blacks score lower than low SES whites.

    On Race Relations

    “On a tangent, if you ever get the opportunity to go to a chinese take out in Prince Georges County, MD, most of the Chinese restaurants have a bulletproof glass between the counter and the kitchen/cashier. In West Baltimore, the neighborhood grocer stocks all its items behind a bulletproof glass, and the patrons tell the cashier what they want and the cash and goods are exchanged through a revolving plexiglass window. They’ve adapted to the situation, And while I acknowledge that the xenophobia is still there, I don’t believe there’s any tension brooding between either party. It’s just all in a day’s work.”

    I am interested in race relations between blacks and Asians in urban environments as an academic subject. I am, after all, currently residing in Baltimore. If you read my blog, you will see that I have ventured into environments like you describe. There are a lot of Korean small business owners in the city So many in fact that it appears that they are dominating the local economy, perhaps at the expense of African-American entrepreneurs. This is a sociological project that I have planned for the upcoming year. My intent is to evaluate the attitudes of Korean business owners towards blacks and conversely the attitudes of blacks towards Koreans in the city. East Asians globally tend to be very racist and xenophobic, especially towards blacks, as evidenced by survey results on attitudes towards blacks. Does the proximity and relative economic position of the two groups in the city build understanding or tension? To what extend have Korean business owners taken over the market and by what method is this done? There is one market in downtown Baltimore which is almost completely run by Koreans (as far as I could tell by a quick analysis of their phenotypes). My hypothesis is that strong Korean networks and organization are key to establishing domination of the businesses in the area. Yes, HBD would suggest that Koreans are able to do this because they are so much smarter than blacks, which I admit is a consideration, but it is unfair to look solely through the HBD lenses to analyze the situation.

    AOR

  105. Look at that! The overall tone from three days ago and now is like night and day!

    “Correlation does not equal causation.”

    100% agree. But the relationship is still worth taking a look into. Additionally, I think it’d be worth taking a lookin into one of the most affluent African-American county in America (PG County) and the very poor African-American areas in Baltimore City, and comparing the academic performance between these two groups. I do think there still is a case that environment plays a role in development….which doesn’t necessarily disproves HBD, but perhaps adds to it?

    On college admissions:
    I don’t disagree with the statistics, and I will concede that it’s unfortunate that less-academically qualified students are chosen over more academically qualified ones….into what should be an academic institution….regardless of race.

    And while we’re on the topic of institutions, wouldn’t this qualify as a form of institutional racism?

    I have read your blog, but since nobody uses the or tag, I can’t tell if you’re trying to be serious or trying to be funny :). I am a Baltimore native, and in fact, I was going to open up a business on St. Paul St. down the street of where you’re attending school :). As you probably already know, your area of Baltimore is the part of the Chocolate city with the marshmallow/lemon filling :).

    As my family business supplies most of those wholesalers in Lexington Market (as well as Cross Street Market and Fells Point Market, among others), I can tell you that 99% of them are in fact Korean, with a handful of them being Chinese :). And I think the reason is because the Chinese haven’t really established a community in Baltimore yet. For cry’n out loud, Chinatown Baltimore’s only 2 blocks long.

    I’m not sure where you’re from originally, but I can tell you as a local native, you’re not going to get much out of the locals in that specific area of Baltimore, especially around the North Ave/Druid Hill/Greenmount corridor (nor would I suggest you to wander around by yourself interviewing people there, lol). Where I may suggest you start are perhaps the wig/weave shops (where apparently the Koreans hold a monopoly on) and interview the patrons there, as well as the business owners.

    Their success, in my opinion, can be attributed to their access to capital, access to advantageously priced goods, and networks, which drives out local competition. Even though I’m currently in the family business, I used to do alot of work with businesses around the Baltimore-Washington area (in the areas of finance), and am familiar with many of the African-American business owners (more specifically that 33rd St./Greenmount area – not sure if they’re still there though). And I don’t believe it’s necessarily intelligence or work ethic that determines their success or failure, but rather those things I mentioned above that helps those Koreans maintain their monopoly in those sectors. But anyway – yes, it would be unfair to only consider HBD in your conclusions (if using it at all).

  106. Asian of Reason, I always believe in having a look at both sides of the argument and the sources, when considering theories. I’m not going to make my decision immediately, based on information either way, but I am going to research the alternative viewpoints.

    The following is a quote from the link below over at Derkeiler.
    You might want to have a look at the article as well.

    “I had never before heard of La Griffe du Lion. His
    article was so full of egregiously bad methodology
    and other mistakes that I at first assumed it was a
    satire of racist pseudoscience, the sort of thing
    that might be written for the Annals of Improbable
    Research or (if you’re Alan Sokal) Social Text.”

    http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.music.classical.guitar/2008-06/msg00072.html

    La Griffe’s conclusions and projections are highly reliant on the source data of Richard Lynn. In a 2008 journal review of the data used in Lynn’s book, Hunt and Wittmann write:

    “The majority of the data points were based upon convenience rather than representative samples. Some points were not even based on residents of the country. For instance, the “data point” for Suriname was based on tests given to Surinamese who had migrated to the Netherlands, and the “data point” for Ethiopia was based on the IQ scores of a highly selected group that had emigrated to Israel and, for cultural and historical reasons, was hardly representative of the Ethiopian population. The data point for Mexico was based upon a weighted averaging of the results of a study of “Native American and Mestizo children in southern Mexico” with result of a study of residents of Argentina. Upon reading the original reference, we found that the “data point” that Lynn and Vanhanen used for the lowest IQ estimate, Equatorial Guinea, was actually the mean IQ of a group of Spanish children in a home for the developmentally disabled in Spain. Corrections were applied to adjust for differences in IQ across cohorts (the “Flynn” effect), on the assumption that the same correction could be applied internationally, without regard to the cultural or economic development level of the country involved. While there appears to be rather little evidence on cohort effect upon IQ across the developing countries, one study in Kenya (Daley, Whaley, Sigman, Espinosa, & Neumann, 2003[15]) shows a substantially larger cohort effect than is reported for developed countries.”
    * “National Intelligence and National Prosperity.” Intelligence. Vol. 36, 2008 (Hunt, E. & Wittmann, W. (2008)

    This is just a beginning but we’ll see how credible or incredible
    these claims/sources actually are.

  107. Ben II,

    Look at that! The overall tone from three days ago and now is like night and day!

    That’s because AD is on vacation. Either that, or he doesn’t want to pay me my fees for approving his posts that get caught in the mod queue.

    AOR,

    Thanks for the podcast yesterday, AOR. I hope to put it up sometime today, hopefully sooner rather than later.

    That LaGriffe link you posted is not unbiased. It’s not a reputable news source. Look at his sidebar; he’s out to prove some kind of genetic linkage between intelligence and race. He doesn’t quote where he got the info he’s posting. He makes it seem like it’s the College Board, but he doesn’t list his footnotes, which is usually the common practice when making big claims. I have no problem with him having his biases–I have mine too–but he ought to tell us where he gets his info. Especially with those claims–if a White family can make $0 to $10,000 can do better than rich black kids, then perhaps we ought to be studying how these poor White families are able to do so well while their kids are starving.

    La Griffe also quotes 1995 stats. In Britain, as of 2009, poor black boys are outperforming poor white boys, and this comes from a reputable source, the Guardian:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/nov/19/sats-white-boys-test-results

    Just 47.9% of white boys on free school meals managed the standard expected of them in the tests (level 4), compared to 51.6% of black boys on free school meals.

    Fourteen years makes a big difference in terms of changes, I guess. Pretty good stuff, considering the British don’t even have a black judge on Britain’s Got Talent.

  108. By the way, I’m just kidding about those fees. I haven’t yet set up Paypal, and the mod queue is empty. Not that I don’t deserve to make a few bucks every time someone comes in with “Excuse me asshole.”

  109. Haha! Yes, sometimes I can be a shit-disturber. :)

    RE: your comment about my reading your blog–I always take my shoes off before entering someone else’s house, so I don’t track mud. Unless, of course, you want me to. :)

  110. @jaehwan

    would prefer/appreciate it if you contacted me one-on-one before any notions of stringing me out to a public stoning :).

    i believe you have my email, if there’s something you want to discuss.

    in all honesty, I do try to be reasonable, fair and objective – and will gladly retract my opinions if they’re proven to be false. but i don’t think i’ve said anything controversial in my blog….yet :). i mean, cripes…it’s a baby blog (though I’d like to interject by saying it’s ranked #60-something out of 1400 baby blogs!!!)

  111. Ben,

    60 out of 1400? That’s freaking awesome!

    I may try to contact you in the next few weeks. I’d love to do a podcast. We could do it with you and Alpha. We were talking about doing a daddy podcast last year, but we never got around to it.

  112. sure, let me know.

    but out of curiosity, that wouldn’t be you pinging my blog archives in preparation for gotcha questions, is it? lol.

  113. @Ben II

    In relation to entry to college, I disagree with your view and agree on AoR’s.
    Extra-cirruclar activities might have been a tool to get some gifted people who are not great at SATs in colleges, but it has been abused to the point that it’s borderline discrimination.

    For example, how many non-whites (or girls) gets a chance to play quarterback for their high school? And don’t get me going in terms of leadership skills, we are talking about 16-17 years where popularity = leadership skills and where body image played the majority part in creating the popularity in the first place. In any case, why should a dude that throws a ball really far or a pretty boy get an advantage over me in applying for say, a science position at Stanford? Like AoR said, the designers of these criteria might have considered this in mind and is likely to benefit one particular type people greater. And mostly of my friends don’t really shine in terms of personality/leadership skills until they actually get into college anyway (due to the crap that most of us have to face through high school).

    SATs might have its limitations, but it’s the only TRANSPARENT mechanism that I know my surname would (/should) not alter the outcome of the result. Off track, but it’s funny how I never got anything higher than a B- in English classes in highschool, but in the two incidents where I ‘forgot’ to write my name, I got two As.

  114. “Black people do not all live in in poor urban areas. Very few high SES/high education blacks live in low-income areas (unless you count high-level drug dealers?). So this point does not address why high SES blacks score lower than low SES whites.”

    This is incorrect. Fact is, many high income, high education blacks live in poor urban areas or have daily exposure to poverty due to their proximity.

    http://social.jrank.org/pages/23/African-American-Children.html
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/26/AR2009072602347.html

    Regardless of their income level, blacks have trouble finding integrated housing and are usually segregated due to housing and financial discrimination and geographical steering.

    http://www.huduser.org/portal/publications/hsgfin/hds.html

    Also, aside from income, one must also consider net worth in determining a person’s wealth status and social mobility. Whites generally have far greater net worth than blacks. This, along with lack of social business networks and prevalent lending discrimination, effect blacks’ ability to start up and maintain successful private businesses.

    http://www.phoenix.edu/uopx-knowledge-network/articles/industry-viewpoints/african-american-entrepreneurs-still-struggle.html

  115. Pingback: Podcast with AOR, King, and Alpha on Eugenics, HBD, and Racism | bigWOWO

  116. @ Jaehwan
    “That’s because AD is on vacation. Either that, or he doesn’t want to pay me my fees for approving his posts that get caught in the mod queue.”
    -No I am still very much here. I think that perhaps both of us need to adjust our attitudes.

    “Not that I don’t deserve to make a few bucks every time someone comes in with “Excuse me asshole.””
    -Which was directed at Leon who exchanged some rather negative barbs himself. However to his credit, He has apologized and expressed interest in wanting to keep this debate dignified and respectful. I will do my best to uphold that kind of atmosphere as well, and many kudos to Leon as well as Ben II doing their part to help steer this conversation in a more constructive direction.

    “Wow, you found five commercials (that I admit I didn’t bother to watch in their entireties because I didn’t feel like wasting my time.).”
    -I can find you as many as you desire, its quite wide spread, the various cliches and negative portrayals. This includes movies as well. Those five commercials are but the tip of the iceberg. Still, I want to clarify that the fact that there is media bias against whites does not mean that media bias against asians is justified. Rather what I am saying is that I do not believe that the media bias against asians is a manifestation of white institutionalized racism, because if it was, then why would whites discriminate against themselves as well? I personally chalk the whole situation up to scummy marketing practices.

    -Regarding your link (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/nov/19/sats-white-boys-test-results), I waded through the comments and found this.

    “Just 47.9% of white boys on free school meals managed the standard expected of them in the tests (level 4), compared to 51.6% of black boys on free school meals.

    The above is a true statement – however, I wonder what the point or value of it is?

    If you look at the figures released by the DCSF you will also find this:
    55% of the total of Black pupils are receiving free school meals whilst just 16% of the total of White pupils are receiving free school meals (16% is approx. the national overall average for all pupils). The story could have been about why being Black means you’re more likely to be living in poverty?”

    -It brings up a pertinent point about the article in question, and is also quite consistent with what HBD espouses. I checked out the DCSF site itself and tried to access the data however I don’t have excel on this computer so I was unable to. I provided a link to the relevant tables (I believe they are the right ones) so anybody can confirm the accuracy of the quote for themselves. (http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/TIM/m002021/index.shtml)

    @ Ben II
    “Where we may diverge however, is your angle of approach; you may have something great like a surf and turf dinner, but when you’re presenting it on a garbage can lid….that’s what everyone’s going to be focused on.”
    -I agree, my delivery is not always diplomatic. At the same time, neither are the responses that I have been getting, its a vicious cycle. However responding with harsh invective and vitirol in response to the same accomplishes nothing as you have probably observed, as have I. So from here on out I’m gonna do better, and I hope others here will share the same sentiment.

    -For a lot of what you wrote in response, I really have nothing to say. We are pretty much of a similar mind.

    “As for that asian kid’s friends in the photo”
    -I’m of the opinion that a thick skin will take you far in life. I’d hate to invite ridicule by appearing to be overly sensitive to things. People will come to respect you, and will generally avoid saying things like that period once they actually get to know you. Additionally I’m not aware of the context in which that picture was taken, it could have been spontaneous or maybe everybody was talking about something which got people to do that. Hell, maybe that asian guy was the one who brought it up in the first place. Its a possibility. As for miley cyrus, as I understand it, at the time the picture was taken she was 16 or 17. Generally, its safe to say that you don’t really expect the best judgement from that age bracket hahah. In any case, I understand what you’re saying, and although we don’t agree exactly I definitely respect your position on it.”

    “But that still doesn’t make it right. They should at the very least respect the integrity of the original work.”
    -No I agree fully with you. All I am saying is, we should blame the producers, studios etc, as opposed to blaming this on white institutionalized racism. (I fail to see the connection between the two.)

    “So to (kinda) address your point about blacks oppressing asians (or rather, blacks being more oppressive than whites towards asians, generally speaking)”
    -This may be my fault for not clarifying this properly. All I’m saying is that I feel its ironic that some people here feel that asians should take a stand against white institutionalized racism when in actuality, the worst racism we experience is sporadic rioting/mass violence that happens to come from blacks. I’m not under the illusion that all blacks are oppressing asians, All i’m trying to do is highlight the irony of the situation. That and get across the message that asians DON’T need to band together to oppose blacks OR whites (or white institutionalized racism). Instead, for those of us that choose to participate in racial collective politics, it would be more prudent for us to take a more positive, proactive stance as opposed to being so reactionary.

    “Where I do agree with you is that it’s not as pervasive to the point where the entire APA population should be roused to DEFCON 1. However, it is still a valid concern, and therefore should be appropriately addressed.”
    -I suppose its a bit like I was telling jaehwan, although I do not feel that negative media portrayals are necessarily white institutionalized discrimination, it is still an issue that needs to be addressed. I guess what im saying is that the most important thing is for us to know who we’re actually supposed to be opposing, whoever or whatever that is.

    “And IMHO, I think that the comparison of media portrayals of APAs and Whites can be a little tricky, because there are too many variables at play.”
    -Your argument is valid and I agree with it. The only point I was trying to make is that logically speaking, anti-asian bias in the media could not be considered white institutionalized racism, seeing as how whites get the brunt of it as well. Therefore we should blame the studios, advertisers, hollywood?, as opposed to erroneously blaming WID.

    “I’m with you on the mindset that demonizing “whitey” isn’t exactly the way to go. But I’m not sure if everyone on this forum is saying just that.”
    -As I understand it, many people here are trying to say that the problems of asian americans are the result of WID. Which yes, I acknowledge is a different entity than white people in general. As for the general mindset here, most of the people that have remained this far into the discussion are of the belief that WID is the problem, not white people. Some of the earlier posters appeared to have the sentiment that it was both WID and white people, but now most of the people here are mostly against WID. At least that is my understanding of the general mindset. Please correct me if I have misunderstood anything. If my perception is correct then my only qualm here is that I am skeptical of if WID is the actual cause of our problems OR if WID even exists anymore for that matter in a contemporary context.

    @ King
    -My response to Ben II pretty much addresses your point as well, so I guess you can consider that a response to you as well.

    @ everybody
    -The conversation appears to be taking a different (much better) direction, but before we move too far along, if there was anything I said that people still take issue with and may want to discuss further (in a polite manner of course) then I am more than willing to discuss that with you now.

    @ jaehwan again
    -Regarding my questions I have been asking you to answer, I recognize that in a way, I have been a bit boorish about calling you out about them. For that I apologize. I still have my questions for you, however I am also going to put in my two cents about my own questions as well.

    1.How exactly is it that asians are institutionally discriminated against on a widescale?
    -It appears to me that we are generally not discriminated against on a widescale, at least not institutionally, however I take serious issue with the media. As I have told you and ben before, its important that we take the fight to the media, but it is equally important that we are attacking the right target. Also, it is pertinent that we ask why they are doing so? As I have demonstrated, whites are also subject to this type of discrimination. So if it were WID that was purposely trying to make asians look bad, this would seem rather self defeating. I personally think its probably marketing/advertising stupidity, but my mind is not closed to the possiblity that it might have a more nefarious motivation as well. Whatever that may be.

    2.Specifically what interests are blacks and asians aligned on? Can you give me a few examples?
    -I am still adamant on my stance that blacks and asians have no political common ground. However don’t get me wrong, I’m not against any form of black/asian cultural exchange. I am just opposed to any kind of black/asian political unity, all the benefits seem to be one sided while the other side is essentially devoting their time, numbers and effort for free. (This is on a different tangent, but speaking of anti-asian media bias, did anyone see the new karate kid? I heard that there was a lot of pro-black/anti-asian {male} bias. Hell, maybe the true scenario is that the powers that be would rather us all fight against each other, black, white, asian, and brown, male and female. This actually seems semi-plausible.)

    3.”If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.”
    -I think generally in america, asians have pretty equal opportunities. I think the problem is not opportunities, but numbers. If asians somehow ended up being at least 10% of the population, just by virtue of our apparent productivity (yes, I am making an HBD statement. From observation it appears to be true, but in any case I am ready for the flames. ;)) we would probably possess a disproportinate presence in all spheres of society.

    4.http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434
    -I think this link brings up a good point. We should not be so suspicious of genetic research. IF HBD is an actual, existing phenomena then we should research it. (Also if we don’t, china or somebody else will. That is inevitable.) Furthermore, if the CHINESE are researching it then I think that white racists would have a hard time manipulating the data that would come out of it for nerfarious purposes. Personally, since I doubt the rampant existence of WID, I think that all the people researching it, white or chinese, (or whoever else) generally are more concerned about pursuing knowledge, and advancing science as opposed to just trying to find justification for racism. Also, one strange paradox is that through genetics research if we can discover the underpinnings of intelligence then it is entirely feasible that we could use that knowledge to close the IQ gap via genetic engineering. Ironic no?

  117. The above is a true statement – however, I wonder what the point or value of it is?

    The point is that if you control for economic situation, black boys in Britain may be succeeding at a higher percentage than White boys, thereby lending evidence that shows there may not be a linkage between race and academic success in all situations.

    The podcast is up:
    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/09/podcast-with-aor-king-and-alpha-on-eugenics-hbd-and-racism/

    The point will probably make sense if you hear the part where we talk about IQ, between 30 and just past 54 minutes.

  118. @N

    Allow me to clarify. My point was more focused on the lack of credentials of candidates that only offer great SAT scores or GPAs. Extracurricular activities and leadership didn’t necessarily have to do with sports per se…but rather the bigger picture of a candidates profile which may include other activities such as Church Groups, history club, band, work-study, etc. I only present my skepticism that admissions ONLY look at GPA and SAT scores to admit students…and where a student may excel only in school, they *may* be lacking in other areas which make them well rounded candidates.

    I don’t doubt that there may be some shady stuff going on in admissions, but I was just offering my devil’s advocate position of what *could* also potentially be the case. Additionally, I understand and agree with your position where many people come onto their own in college, but the interviewers in admissions have to make judgments (however valid or invalid) based on the information they have in front of them.

    The essay, as it’s presented, does not present scenarios where you have two equal candidates with the same credentials applying for the same school. The only variables we have here are SATs scores, but we know that Admissions can and will look beyond these scores.

    And again, I don’t doubt that this occurs in real life. But I also don’t think that the essay is presenting all the information or making fair comparisons.

    @AD

    Welcome back to the discussion. I hope we can make some progress towards mutual understanding this time around!

    I agree with you to a point, however under or mis-representation of a minority group in mass media is still considered institutional racism based solely on the fact the audience is composed primarily of whites. however many videos you may find of one white guy making a fool of himself, I can find 100 videos of whites where he isn’t. You won’t be able to do the same for the asian guy making a fool of himself – because APAs are both under represented AND mis represented.

    And like you, I don’t believe that it’s entirely white people who are doing this. Everybody has a hand in this, including the APAs who allow these to occur (actors who take on these roles, APAs who internalize and accept these misrepresentations as business-as-usual). But you also have to admit, scapegoating the white establishment seems like the most obvious and convenient choice, in the instances where APA under and mis-representation is concerned. And I agree with you that this isn’t necessarily widescale, however its frequency is enough to worth looking into, and address the issues as we see them arise. Even one instance is one instance too many towards the wrong direction.

    Like you, I also believe that in most cases, APAs do have equal opportunities. But this may stem from our own personal experiences where we felt we were afforded every opportunity out there and was not singled out based on race alone. But these may be our personal experiences and our observations ONLY. But on the other hand I don’t doubt that remnants of Yellow Peril still exists, and that there are certain people who are quite paranoid of Asian people taking over America (or the world, in general), or just xenophobic towards Asians in general, and will continue practicing their ignorance for the sake of self-preservation.

    As an example of why I said “most cases” instead of “all cases”, I offer you an experience I had a few years ago when I was still working in finance. On the phone, my voice and articulation is no different from John Smith, Brian Jones or any American born person who speaks english intelligently. I remember talking to a potential client over a number of weeks; the guys was talkative, excited and friendly. When we finally met in person to seal the deal after four weeks of telephone conversations….the guy didn’t even look me in the eyes. Never mind the fact he was an old geezer wearing Confederate America memorabilia. But of course, this is anecdotal, so you can take it for what it is. But I still maintain my position that while both you and I may have been fortunate enough to have experience little-to-no racism that affected our access to opportunities (in my case, it was the opportunity to make alot of money), the glass ceilings are still there for our fellow APA brothers and sisters who were not as fortunate.

  119. King
    “So, how is this any different than the L.A. riots, except in this case, it was Asian vs. Asian”

    Asian vs. Asian doesn’t mean anything. That’s like saying human vs. human, there are 10000 million degrees of difference between Chinese and Indonesians. They are both members of two separate and very distinct races- the difference between them is greater than the difference between Europeans and most African groups.

  120. This has been an interesting thread! I do actually think that AsianDude has a valid point about Asian/black relations and racism. It’s true that black/Asian unity is something of a myth, and there’s definitely very little or no mutual consciousness. That doesn’t mean that there shouldn’t be co-operation or unity, but I think we have to do much more to achieve it than to simply assert it. I would expect to see more black leaders (Sharpton and Jackson) speaking out against anti-Asian racism from both black and non-black communities, and since we don’t see much of this it’s difficult to believe that this unity and mutual affinity actually exists except as wishful thinking in the minds of Asian academics. Again, that’s not to say that it shouldn’t or that it cannot exist, or that it didn’t exist in the past – it just doesn’t really exist right now.

    At the same time, I don’t see many white community or political leaders stepping up to speak out in support for Asians when we experience bigotry from any side. So this idea that white racism is somehow the lesser of the two evils is dubious. Can we even be sure that there actually is more black on Asian violence than white on Asian violence? How do we know? Do the headlines reflect the social reality or do they reflect bias in reporting and interpretation?

    Plus, this idea that whites have it just as bad as Asians when it comes to media representation is just weird. Negative media depictions of Asians lead to negative attitudes towards all Asians. Negative depictions of white people lead to negative attitudes toward white people who exhibit those negative qualities, but not toward the entire community. Media depictions of Asians imply that being Asian is a negative quality. That’s a huge difference.

    As for the HBD stuff, it seems way too early to be drawing the kinds of inferences that race realists want to draw. Craig Venter says that so far the human genome hasn’t told us much and that we can’t even be certain from reading his that his eyes are blue. Furthermore, genes can be expressed or not. Women who possess the gene mutation that correlates to breast cancer are not fated to develop the disease if they make the effort to live in a healthy environment. That suggests that whatever genes correlate with intelligence may also be subject to environmental conditions – in fact, it’s probably likely that this is the case. If we take into account nutritional considerations, social expectations and cultural pressures then communities that have lived in poverty for generations may be less likely to have access to the environmental conditions necessary for academic success.

  121. If you are not convinced about the truth of HBD from the available evidence and think it is wrong for me to writes and theorize as if it were true, then I would expect you to extend the same treatment to everyone who writes and acts under the proposition that all races are equal/the same. This means you should be opposed to disparate impact laws, government funding for a variety of educational programs, and the majority of MSM writing because all these operate under the guise that HBD is an untruth. If you want to give NAMs the \benefit of the doubt\, then let the chips fall where they may.

  122. @ King

    I believe you and AD may be arguing two different points. If I’m interpreting his comments correctly, he’s merely pointing out that Asians have more to fear from Blacks than they would from Whites…based on his observation, and he cites the 92 LA riots as an example. I’m not sure how HBD fell into this particular point, because I was under the impression he was talking about something completely different on this particular point – more specifically, who Asians fear more….as a basis for his reasoning why Blacks and Asian interests aren’t necessarily aligned.

    You cite two riots, and your reasoning for citing them is still unclear to me. Are you trying to prove that they are similar or different? Because one can provide evidence to prove either case (that they are indeed similar, or different). Are we talking about accountability? That the victims in either case shouldn’t prejudice an entire population group simply because they suffered at the hands of a few?

    I dont’ believe that intelligent people, like most of the people here on this forum, would make that kind of broad generalization. But PEOPLE, on the other hand, may maintain a herd mentality and make those generalizations, especially if they feel like they’ve been victimized. I can give you some examples:

    – Americans who believe that the Islamic Community Center should not be built near Ground Zero because they felt they were victimized by a handful of crazy members of a particular group (Muslims), and therefore anything Islamic is BAD.

    – Afghani and Iraqi civilians who died/were harassed by a handful of crazy/careless/errant members of a particular group (US-led UN troops), and therefore feel that anything related to American is bad.

    – American blue collar workers during Yellow Peril and today, who felt victimized by all these cheap laborers taking away their way of life, and therefore anything Chinese or Mexican (or things that seemingly help their cause, such as NAFTA) is/was deemed bad.

    A person can be smart and intelligent. But humans, collectively speaking, aren’t necessarily as bright. While it’s unfortunate that they feel victimized and that these tragedies occurred, you can’t help but have that natural urge to scapegoat ONE particular group, when it’s only members of that one particular causing all your grief.

    Back to your examples:
    1. LA Riots – it’s not like it was germans and poles who were harassing the koreans. The koreans only saw blacks looting their stores, therefore they associate their grief with the blacks the most.
    2. Indonesian Riots – The oppressors and victims are clearly defined. It’s not like the vietnamese or laotians came in to harass the ethnic Han’s. They associated their victimization most closely with the indonesians.

    My examples:
    Ground Zero Community Center – All the hijackers were muslim. Therefore, Americans attribute their sufferings on 9/11 to all muslims.

    War on Terror – though much of their suffering also came from the previous regime, our American hands are not free of innocent blood either. So you can’t blame them for not liking us, even though I’m sure there are genuine American soldiers out there pursuing a noble causes and trying to enrich their civilian life.

    Migrant workers in America – “Americans” see how their jobs are being taken away by cheap labor, and attribute it to the population group who are actually still working (for less pay). But this is all the unemployed see, despite being an incomplete assessment.

    So my point is, AD has a valid point when he says that Asians do have a fear of Blacks. This is not to say that ALL asians fear blacks, or that asians should fear ALL blacks, but rather – his rationale for the general asian population supporting the belief of black oppressors is still warranted. Because of those instances of violence is at forefront of their minds, moreso than some asian guy making a fool out of himself in some commercial, tv show or movie (or some other form of institutional racism).

    Please correct me if I’m misinterpreting your points.

  123. AOR:

    “If you are not convinced about the truth of HBD from the available evidence and think it is wrong for me to writes and theorize as if it were true, then I would expect you to extend the same treatment to everyone who writes and acts under the proposition that all races are equal/the same.”

    The key difference is that the burden of proof is on you, not on those who dispute HBD. Think of it like religion. If I said that I’m a Christian and that only Christians should be allowed to be President of the United States in order to avoid the prophecies in the Book of Revelation, proving that the Book of Revelation is true would be my responsibility. Innocent until proven guilty, equal until proven not.

    Besides, you yourself during the podcast admitted that the gap already closed quite a bit, something about how the gap got smaller after civil rights. I don’t know why you wouldn’t choose to run with that piece of evidence.

  124. Rats! I was working on another post!

    But, your post makes valid points, and asks valid questions, so I better stop and answer it. I also owe AD a response on another post that I promised. Oh well.

    “Are we talking about accountability? That the victims in either case shouldn’t prejudice an entire population group simply because they suffered at the hands of a few?”

    I think that is reasonably close to my point.
    I hope we can rehash this without it turning into a melee. Asian Dude, sited the L.A Riots as an example of Black “oppression” of Asians. My point was that it did not fit into the more common understanding of what oppression is. If someone robs a bank, we don’t usually say that the robber was oppressing the teller. If a mugger beats up a lady in the Park, we don’t call it oppression. Even if a gang shoots several members of another gang, we don’t call it oppression.

    Wikipedia defines oppression as follows: 1. Oppression is the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.

    Therefore usually we associate oppression with something that is systematic and/or institutionalized. For example, a law that says that Chinese men may not bring their wives into this country would probably be a better example of oppression. Or perhaps a policy that prevented Chinese or Japanese from joining certain clubs, or living in certain neighborhoods, would be more in line with the more common understanding of what oppression is.

    Asian Dude went on to extend his rhetoric to encompass the idea that the Black community was corporately responsible for the actions of the guilty rioters because Blacks have a unique “no snitch” policy toward the police. My point was simply to demonstrate that it is, in fact, not a Black community problem, it’s a human problem. How many Indonesian “snitched” after that little rape riot?

    Trying to assign negative human characteristics to a single race, in an attempt to assign group culpability, is a waste of time, at best.

    “So my point is, AD has a valid point when he says that Asians do have a fear of Blacks. This is not to say that ALL asians fear blacks, or that asians should fear ALL blacks…”

    Well, that’s complicated isn’t it? Are you talking about individuals or institutions?
    And it also depends, quite a bit, on what it is that you fear.

  125. @King

    I appreciate the prompt and civil response! lol

    You both have valid points, but as I surmised, you two may indeed be attempting to prove points that don’t necessarily conflict with one another (not head on, at least :)).

    It’s all about perspective. The LA riots was an isolated incident where the Koreans were the perceived victims. I believe he also cited an incident in Philly where APAs were victims as well. If the belligerents happen to fall within the same racial category in these cases, how many cases does it take before it’s “allowable” for these victims to attribute their grief to this one particular group, systemic enough to a point thereby allowing it to fall under that definition of “oppression”?

    In your example, let’s make it more specific. Let’s say that the very same bank is getting robbed by Eskimos at least once a month (because we know that Eskimos are beastly immoral people, with low IQs and a penchant for crime). This occurs over the course of a year….and they target ONLY THAT BANK (maybe because it’s a non-Eskimo-owned bank) and all the other banks on that street have been robbery-free…..then do those tellers have a justifiable cause to assume that he/she/the organization is being oppressed by the Eskimo community?

    I agree with your definition of oppression. But I believe that AD’s explanation involves a population group that is readily identifiable, and there is a clear distinction between who the victims and “oppressors” are. My point however, is that since these victims observe certain characteristics of the type of people who have caused them harm, then it is very plausible they would lump everyone together who shares that characteristic.

    Just like I don’t think that we’re necessarily being “oppressed” by Muslims simply because of the semi-isolated incidents of 9/11, doesn’t meant that the rest of America doesn’t think so. By God, if you don’t believe me you can go ahead and read ANY forum on Yahoo News. Just as these Americans have a right to feel that way, Koreans (or other APAs) have a right to feel the way they do towards a certain racial group, based on their personal experiences.

    Sheesh, many of the commenters here believe in white oppression, based on the past/present actions of some/many members of the white establishment. So what makes our claims any less valid than those of the Korean-Americans who witnessed the LA riots?

    I didn’t even get myself involved with the “snitch” argument, there’s enough to read on this thread as it is, lol. But from what I’ve summarized, I would agree with you that snitching, no-snitching are present in ALL cultures across the board. But I’m not sure if this was the foundation of his argument anyway.

    As I mentioned earlier, I believe AD’s mention of the LA riots was really to show that Asian and Black interests are not aligned, given their recent history together…..or more specifically, they have more to fear from Blacks than they do from Whites. They value their overall safety (perceived black oppression) more than they do about some APA guy making a clown of himself on TV (perceived white oppression).

    So to answer your question, we’re talking about specific racial groups. Given AD’s recent history of Black on Asian violence, APA fears have some merits, even though that fear is based on generalization. We’re not saying that it’s right, but rather that their viewpoint is understandable.

    This occurs everywhere, not just America. Just as many Chinese still dislike the Japanese for the Rape of Nanking and the Koreans disliking the Japanese for enslaving their female population to become their comfort women during WWII, many will always associate the Japanese for those atrocities. This doesn’t mean that ALL Chinese and ALL Koreans hold this opinion of Japanese….but of the ones that DO, I can understand why they would feel that way. (Way to hold a grudge!)

  126. btw…for clarification, I don’t believe that Blacks are oppressing Asians.

    However, if Asians feel like they are being oppressed by Blacks, I can see why they would feel that way…..even though I don’t think there’s some organized, sinister plan among Blacks to harass Asians.

    Same thing goes for “white on asian” oppression.

  127. “It’s all about perspective. The LA riots was an isolated incident where the Koreans were the perceived victims. I believe he also cited an incident in Philly where APAs were victims as well. If the belligerents happen to fall within the same racial category in these cases, how many cases does it take before it’s “allowable” for these victims to attribute their grief to this one particular group?”

    I’d say more than two.

    But I’d also say that the fact that there are incidents of violence where individual Black people victimize individual Asians does not necessarily make the case for “oppression.”

    The reason that authority, power, and institutionalization, come in as important factors in defining oppression, is that it establishes a greater scope of inequity.

    For example, Tony Smith moves into an Eskimo neighborhood, and has his car graffitied, lawn trashed, and windows broken, in an effort to get him out, because certain people in the Eskimo community are ignorant and racist.

    But that’s different than Tony Smith moving into am Eskimo neighborhood and two Eskimo Marshals (with shiny black 0.38 revolvers) show up and arrest him. They take him downtown to an Eskimo Judge who tells him there’s an ordinance against non-Eskimo’s living in his neighborhood and that he must move immediately.

    I see the point that you’re trying to make, but racist clashes between individuals of any given race, are not the same as when they are accompanied by law and authority. In one case, the acts of a few racist individuals may be falsely interpreted as representative of the community.

    In the other case, the community has installed a system of racism by voting in racist laws and/or voting in politicians who do so. Every person in the community is not necessarily culpable, but as the community, as an institution, is.

  128. AOR

    I never said that it was wrong of you to write or theorize on anything. You’re free to write whatever you choose – you’re entitled to your process. Yet, the efficacy of HBD theories is challenged by the very man who mapped the human genome – it doesn’t tell us very much right now. This means that any commentaries or inferences from it are almost entirely speculative. Scientifically inspired theories that aren’t supported by the science are meaningless and amount to not much more than wishful thinking.
    So far there is much support for the idea that gene expression can be influenced by environmental conditions. This comes mainly from the medical field, but why should we think this doesn’t apply to “intelligence genes”? Furthermore, there may come a time when genes can be manipulated to create any phsyical or intellectual characteristics we choose. That’s tanatmount to flushing HBD down the toilet.

    With this in mind, I don’t really agree that the evidence in favour of equality is as fuzzy as the evidence for racial hierarchies and I think that you are making something of a category error by suggesting that affirmative action type laws are based on scientific notions of racial equality. I think it’s more true to say that there are moral premises that seek to correct injustices of the past that underpin these ideas – which incidentally were originally conceptualized to equalize the imbalances caused by slavery and Jim Crow and only much later were applied to NBMs and women. I agree with these moral premises and the idea that societies should show consideration for even their weakest members.

  129. @ Ben
    “As I mentioned earlier, I believe AD’s mention of the LA riots was really to show that Asian and Black interests are not aligned, given their recent history together…..or more specifically, they have more to fear from Blacks than they do from Whites. They value their overall safety (perceived black oppression) more than they do about some APA guy making a clown of himself on TV (perceived white oppression). ”
    -This pretty much hits the nail on the head. King thinks that I am trying to make a case for black oppression when in actuality I am merely highlighting the irony of the situation. King wants blacks and asians to unite against the white power structure, while the only source of mass antagonization to asians is from people that happen to be black. On top of that the fact that nobody has yet made a good case for white institutionalized racism against asians and it pretty much cements my point. With all due respect to king, I do not see how I could make this any clearer, nor do I understand why he insists on fixating on this point.

    @ Jaehwan
    “The key difference is that the burden of proof is on you, not on those who dispute HBD. Think of it like religion. If I said that I’m a Christian and that only Christians should be allowed to be President of the United States in order to avoid the prophecies in the Book of Revelation, proving that the Book of Revelation is true would be my responsibility. Innocent until proven guilty, equal until proven not.”
    -The burden of proof is on you to conclusively demonstrate that white institutionalized racism exists on a large scale against asians. It is your responsibility to prove this to me, thus far you have only avoided answering this. Really?

  130. Asian Dude:

    Re: “The burden of proof is on you to conclusively demonstrate that white institutionalized racism exists on a large scale against asians.”

    Wow. Really? Where do we begin? Shall we go to the Opium War, or father back in history? Talk about the coolies? Marco Polo? The colonization of India? The Portuguese in Taiwan? Shall we talk about the Philippines? Or stay within the New World and talk about the Chinese Exclusion Act? The Japanese Internment camps?

  131. okay, I see your distinction now :)

    But I still think the unenlightened victim won’t be able to distinguish the two though. Even though one is institutionalized and one is not, you don’t think that the victim would feel oppressed either way? In both instances, they’re feeling not welcomed, and the locals don’t have qualms about showing it.

    So I understand your point 100% about the definitions of instituional racism, however I think AD was talking about an overall fear (legal or not) of Asians towards Blacks, given their own personal experiences. So as I correctly assumed, you both are making valid points, but he appears to be talking apples and you’re talking oranges :).

    I still don’t think AD believes that there’s some sorta of institutional racism coming from Blacks towards Asians. I think he’s just saying that Asians fear Blacks for reasons X, Y and Z.

    And to address your other points:
    While you have every right to believe that it takes more than 2 incidences, I believe that 1 incidence is already 1 incidence too far in the wrong direction. And on that same vein, I wouldn’t invalidate someone’s experiences or beliefs simply because their tolerance or threshold is lower than 2. You may say three and the next person may say ten. But for those victims who witnessed and experienced those atrocities first-hand, I would be empathetic to say that 1 is even too much.

  132. @ TZ
    “Wow. Really? Where do we begin? Shall we go to the Opium War, or father back in history? Talk about the coolies? Marco Polo? The colonization of India? The Portuguese in Taiwan? Shall we talk about the Philippines? Or stay within the New World and talk about the Chinese Exclusion Act? The Japanese Internment camps?”
    -We have been talking about white institutionalized discrimination in a contemporary context. The examples you brought up are perfectly valid, but don’t apply as much to the present day. I am merely asking for conclusive proof of white institutionalized discrimination in the year 2010.

  133. TZ

    All valid examples. But I believe he may be referring to white institutional racism as it exists today. I agree with you that it exists. 100%

    Current examples:
    Affirmative Action *may* hurt APA college admission
    Mass Media under and misrepresentation of APA men
    Immigrant quotas from Asian countries

    these are the only three i can think off the top of my head at the moment, may post a few more later.

  134. “King wants blacks and asians to unite against the white power structure”
    That’s an interesting interpretation.

    Please quote the place where I said that Asians should unite with Blacks? If I said that, I don’t remember it. Just give me the quote, if you don’t mind.

    I do remember making the case that there has always been a White-favoring power structure, and that ALL minorities have some stake in correcting it. Why does it come down to The Black Side/ and The White Side?

    Secondly there is really no such thing as “Black Interests” and “Asians Interests.” There are human interests that may affect certain groups to a greater or lesser degree, but they always overlap in some areas.

    For example, when (mostly) Blacks where out marching for civil rights. They endured many arrests, much abuse, and loss of life. But in the end, it achieved the cornerstone legislation: The Cilvil Rights Act of 1968. That was then followed by decades of civil rights legislation.

    Now when this happened, the “No Chinese Allowed” signs came down at the same time as the “No Blacks Allowed” signs. The neighborhoods that were “redlined” for Whites only, opened up to Koreans on the same day that they opened up for Blacks. The discrimination in the workplace statues, the union memberships, the social clubs, all worked the same way.

    It turns out, these weren’t Black issues… they were MINORITY issues, and nobody had any trouble figuring out if Black and Asian issues where “aligned” back then. I would argue that there are still common issues and grievances that minorities have against the majority establishment. They are not nearly as bad or as many as they where in 1965, but let’s not deny that they are there.

  135. @ Asian Dude:

    Off the top of my head, I think of Arizona, and how the effects of that adversely affect Asian immigrants. Also, are we all having this discussion with the same definition for “institutional racism”? Some might argue that the lack of Asians in the media is a form of institutional racism. Hollywood’s intentional inclinations to still cast white people in all main hero roles. What was that recent movie. That cute little boy who was a monk and his eyes glowed and I think he had a big stick or something? That comes to mind as well.

    I admit, however, that I’m not equipped to enter this discussion right now because I haven’t read everything written above. I just pick up key phrases, which is why I picked up that earlier quote by you and went “HUH?”

  136. P.S. To add to that cute movie with the little boy monk and the glowing eyes.. that example is an intersection of institutional racism and internalized racism, as I recall that the director of the film was Asian, right?

    The main problem in 2010 is that the institutional racism of yesteryear has resulted in many Asians, both Asians in Asia and Diasporic Asians, to harbor internalized racism. Can I say that? “harbor intenralized racism”? Man, my grammar is all off today. Argh.

  137. Great points, Ben II and TZ.

    Asian Dude,

    You should take mT’s advice, get off the web for a moment, and talk to people. Talk to Japanese Americans today and see how internment affects them in 2010. You might be surprised what you find. Or go to Asia, and see the lingering shame that came from colonization. Or talk to American black people, and see the humiliation from 200 years of slavery.

    Or talk to actors and how they face discrimination from racism that is embedded in the people who run these institutions. Or talk to psychologists to see how media images affect people.

    Don’t take this personally–just constructively–but I think people may be having problems with your (again, not trying to be personal, trying to be constructive) low Emotional Quotient way of seeing the world. You seem to have this hardened “nothing hurts me” way of seeing the world. It’s not just about you, man. It’s about everyone. And quite honestly, I think it affects your ability to relate to others.

  138. “The main problem in 2010 is that the institutional racism of yesteryear has resulted in many Asians, both Asians in Asia and Diasporic Asians, to harbor internalized racism.

    And another problem is that the institutionalized racism of the past, has served to promote intra-minority suspicion, prejudice and contempt. It has left many with the belief that we all have separate issues that rarely connect and that each group should work with the White establishment on it’s own—never as a consolidated group.

  139. AD:

    -The burden of proof is on you to conclusively demonstrate that white institutionalized racism exists on a large scale against asians. It is your responsibility to prove this to me, thus far you have only avoided answering this. Really?

    Also, if we agree that the burden of proof is on us to demonstrate institutionalized racism (which I think we’ve done), can we also agree that the burden of proof is on HBD proponents to prove that some races are inferior to others? I’m just trying to find where we agree and where we don’t. From your last statement, it seemed like you agreed with us on the HBD people.

  140. Think of it this way, AD (I guess you’re actually getting me to talk to you.).

    If your friend were raped when he was five, and now he’s thirty-five or forty-five, would you tell him to just get over it? If all people of his race were raped, would you tell them just to get over it?

    Like Malcolm said, even when you pull the knife out, it still leaves a scar.

  141. I think we’re inching towards a consensus here!

    I don’t think it’s possible for everyone to see eye-to-eye on this issue, because as someone else mentioned earlier, one’s belief system is based on personal observation and experience. And if he hasn’t experienced or observed the kinds of racism that everyone else seems to have experienced on this thread, that doesn’t make him and his opinions narrow-minded, uneducated or wrong. He’s invited dialogue to disprove his thinking, and thus far, I believe that we have provided the following:

    – Defining what institutional racism is, and why it is applicable to APAs.
    – How it affects APAs
    – How institutional racism affects Asians and Blacks and why their interests *may* be aligned

    I believe those were his main questions, and though some replied in more colorful language than others, I do think most folks did respond to that invitation for dialogue.

    So I guess I’m curious to know what other questions are still left unanswered?

  142. @Ben II

    “I think we’re inching towards a consensus here!”

    You’re so innocent and such a go-getter. Thanks for being such a strong leader and taking such a prominent seat on the peacemaking board. We all value your skills.

    It’s Friday! Yay!!

  143. @MT

    Innocent? That would imply naivete. But no. I just think that in-fighting is counter-intuitive to what I thought was the mission of this blog, which is APA activism. How can we expect to fight for a common cause when we can’t even figure out amongst ourselves what that common cause is?

    I could’ve just as easily engaged in a pissing contest with everyone, but in my experience that generally does more harm than good. Quite frankly, I think that the thread has become productive.

    But thanks for your kind words anyway. They mean so much to me :).

  144. @ Ben II
    “I still don’t think AD believes that there’s some sorta of institutional racism coming from Blacks towards Asians. I think he’s just saying that Asians fear Blacks for reasons X, Y and Z.”
    -Again, you hit the nail on the head. This is exactly what i’m saying.

    “I agree with you to a point, however under or mis-representation of a minority group in mass media is still considered institutional racism based solely on the fact the audience is composed primarily of whites. however many videos you may find of one white guy making a fool of himself, I can find 100 videos of whites where he isn’t. You won’t be able to do the same for the asian guy making a fool of himself – because APAs are both under represented AND mis represented.”
    -Yes, it could be considered institutional racism, and I agree with you. But I think we should discard the moniker “white” institutional racism with regards to the media. Seeing as how whites are slandered in the media too. (Again, possibly blacks and latinos, but I have not noticed this trend as much.) Again, regarding asian misrepresentation, we are only a small segment of the population. I think considering our numbers, we’re doing alright for ourselves. Again I think its less a matter of lack of opportunity and more a matter of numbers. 5% of the population will only get you so far.

    “but you also have to admit, scapegoating the white establishment seems like the most obvious and convenient choice.”
    -Of course its easy and convenient, but it is also unethical. I’m beginning to see the subtle consensus here that the only noticeable manifestation of WID is the media. In no other realm of society do asians experience institutionalized discrimination. Therefore, I feel that we should take our fight up with the media, instead of an imaginary white bogeyman. Again if I am wrong here and if someone can present to me evidence of widescale white institutionalized discrimination against asians then please do so.

    “As an example of why I said “most cases” instead of “all cases”, I offer you an experience I had a few years ago when I was still working in finance.”
    -This is unfortunate to hear. However this appears to be more of an individual case of racism as opposed to institutional, which everybody here seems to be up in arms about. I’ve had my own experiences with racism you know. But never the kind that was institutional. Still, sorry to hear about that man.

  145. @ Ben Efsaneyim
    “I would expect to see more black leaders (Sharpton and Jackson) speaking out against anti-Asian racism from both black and non-black communities…”
    -I couldn’t agree more. The black/asian political alliance is not only a myth, it is also one sided as well.

    “Again, that’s not to say that it shouldn’t or that it cannot exist, or that it didn’t exist in the past – it just doesn’t really exist right now.”
    -I am all for cooperation and unity, but to be honest I do not know what we would cooperate and unify on. Its not that asians and blacks are diametrically opposed, its just that we have nothing in common. Nobody here has yet given me good examples of why blacks and asians should forge a political alliance. (As I said earlier, cultural exchange between blacks and asians is fine, but politically speaking, there is nothing for asians to benefit from.)

    “At the same time, I don’t see many white community or political leaders stepping up to speak out in support for Asians when we experience bigotry from any side. So this idea that white racism is somehow the lesser of the two evils is dubious…”
    -My take on this is that asians really do not experience that much racism. I’m not saying that white racism is the lesser of two evils, I’m merely making the case that it doesn’t exist on a large scale. (neither does black racism for that matter.) Thats all I am saying. Does anti-asian racism happen? Sure. But is it pandemic (from whites OR blacks)? I’d have to say no.

    “Plus, this idea that whites have it just as bad as Asians when it comes to media representation is just weird…”
    -No, the point I am trying to make is that it is silly to blame “white institutionalized racism” for our negative media portrayals. If WID was behind a conspiracy to make asians look stupid then why would they make whites look dumb as well? Logically, it doesn’t add up. Therefore, instead of blaming WID, blame the media. Thats all I’m trying to say.

    “As for the HBD stuff, it seems way too early to be drawing the kinds of inferences that race realists want to draw.”
    -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZurClqPGLc, I’ve posted this before but this is an excellent video with regards to genetics. I’m not sure of your level of knowledge regarding that field so perhaps the video may not bring up any new points at all.

    “If we take into account nutritional considerations, social expectations and cultural pressures then communities that have lived in poverty for generations may be less likely to have access to the environmental conditions necessary for academic success.”
    -This is a rather loose analogy, but consider the example of korea when it was colonized by japan. Even before the colonization korea was fairly poor, rural, with a population of mostly farmers. And then when the japanese took over, koreans were brutally oppressed for nearly 40 years in their own homeland. Yet look at south korea now and see how far they’ve come. Granted, this happened after japan was defeated and korea was liberated, however I urge you to also take a look at haiti, they have been independent for 200 years since the french left, yet they are still very backwards. Even given their proximity to the united states, and lack of any regional rivals. (Both of which don’t apply to korea.) Again a loose analogy, but it is food for thought.

    “Yet, the efficacy of HBD theories is challenged by the very man who mapped the human genome – it doesn’t tell us very much right now.”
    -Who exactly are you referring to? This may not be the person you had in mind, but even James Watson alluded to genetic differences with regards to intelligence. Of course it cost him his job, but to speak realistically, who all here can say that they are geneticists? I’d figure none of us, while Mr.Watson of course discovered the DNA helix along with crick IIRC. (Mr.Watson’s words weren’t even that inflammatory I might add. I suggest everybody google it and see what he actually said.)

    “So far there is much support for the idea that gene expression can be influenced by environmental conditions. This comes mainly from the medical field, but why should we think this doesn’t apply to “intelligence genes””
    -Assuming that by environmental conditions you are likely referring to nourishment and how that influences genes? I apologize if I am presuming anything, I do not intend to come off as condescending. Anyways, from what I see, most children in america are well fed. In fact, many “poor” academically underachieving people that I see are also obese, or at least weigh much more than I do. So I do not think the nourishment aspect of environmental conditions is a plausible factor. Again, assuming thats what you are referring to.

    “Furthermore, there may come a time when genes can be manipulated to create any phsyical or intellectual characteristics we choose. That’s tanatmount to flushing HBD down the toilet.”
    -I agree with this, however to even get to that point tacitly acknowledges that HBD does exist.

    “With this in mind, I don’t really agree that the evidence in favour of equality is as fuzzy…”
    -I think that equality is a man made concept, in nature we see plenty of examples of inequality. Why would man be any different? Assuming that man evolved like everything else and wasn’t created by a higher power. Already we see a wide divergence in physical features between races, why not the brain as well? I don’t really think the evidence for racial egalitarianism is very good. That is my personal opinion though.

    “I think it’s more true to say that there are moral premises that seek to correct injustices of the past that underpin these ideas.”
    -My question is, at what point can you consider all past injustices to be corrected? The people that benefit from correcting said injustices have no incentive to say, “ok, everything is equal now.” It is in their best interests to continue to argue for more reparations. (I’m using the term in a general sense, not to refer to slavery monetary reparations.)

    -Hey ben I hope you don’t get the impression that I’m against you or anything just because I’m disagreeing with you a lot. I just wanted to put that out there, anyways man this is a great debate, thanks for your responses ;)

    @ jaehwan
    -Are you going to answer those questions? I’m not trying to call you out, but to be completely honest, it appears that your position is standing on rather shaky ground at this point. Please specify your positions on those things so I can see exactly where we stand. You know where I stand, and I make every effort to show people that, including lengthy (perhaps too lengthy? ;)) responses, please let everyone else know where you stand on those issues as well. Mano y mano dude

    1.How exactly does white institutionalized racism discriminate against asians on a wide scale? Can you give a few examples?

    2.Specifically what interests are blacks and asians aligned on? Can you give me a few examples?

    3.”If Asian people are given more equal opportunities to find ways in which to become the best people they can be, Black people benefit. White people benefit too. We all benefit together.”
    -What kind of more equal opportunities do you think asians should be given? Please be specific.

    4.http://www.economist.com/node/16349434?story_id=16349434
    -How do you feel about this? How does it impact your current paradigm regarding HBD as a trojan horse for white oppression?

    @ everybody
    -I just saw the new responses just now so I will get to those in a bit

  146. @ Ben II

    “I could’ve just as easily engaged in a pissing contest with everyone, but in my experience that generally does more harm than good.”

    Now why would you do that unless you had some ax to grind or have an extremist view point? I think you are fairly reasonable and cordial. When I said “innocent”, I was referring to your assessment of Asian Dude and his character and motives and beliefs. It’s really just him against everyone else. And no, not everyone else think the same, or share the same experiences, or share the same beliefs and values…not even close.

    Have you heard the podcast? AOR is Asian Dude’s hero btw if you couldn’t glean that from anything you have read.

    “But thanks for your kind words anyway. They mean so much to me” – I knew that would give you feel so important. ;-)

  147. @King

    Your post about problems of minorities and white power structure was brilliant. (Though I like to used ‘White male power structure’, but women is also a minority within that power structure)
    It’s also interesting to think that a lot of the ‘holders of power’ within the white power structure are products before the civil rights era.

    I agree that some of the ‘conflicts’ between blacks and asian communities is a direct results of the white male power structure. Constant usage and media protrayal of the ‘model minority’ myth incept strange ideas into people’s heads and pits the minorities against each other.

  148. I keep wanting to get back to my other posts I’m supposed to be catching up on… but keep getting sucked back in.

    “I’m beginning to see the subtle consensus here that the only noticeable manifestation of WID is the media.”

    I think that may be somewhat premature. There are other long held impressions about Asians that affect them in the workplace too.

    Stereotype 1: Asians are very good at doing complex and tedious work, with high efficiency, but they are not truly creative people. They lack individual thinking, based on their hive-like Asian cultures. Therefore, Asians are good as accountants and engineers, but not so much as movie directors, or great actors, or non-classical musicians, stock portfolio managers, etc.

    Stereotype 2: Asians are not aggressive and are not good leaders. They are way too polite and usually shy. They are great support people, but above a certain level of management, they don’t do well, because they’re not natural leaders.

    The first stereotype tends to work at keeping Asians in certain fields of the job marketplace. The second works to keep Asians beneath the highest levels of management in some business – The one exception might be the CFO position.

    That’s obviously not to say that there are no Asian movie directors, or portfolio managers, it’s just to say that these kind of longstanding impressions still effect the way Asians are perceived in the marketplace. You could work away your life at certain jobs that fit within the stereotype and never even be aware that others who are attempting t break the mold are experiencing resistance.

  149. “Your post about problems of minorities and white power structure was brilliant. (Though I like to used ‘White male power structure’, but women is also a minority within that power structure)”

    Thanks. And you’re right, gender definitely should be considered, as well.

  150. @ Benn II
    Ooops! Somehow I missed this point on first reading.

    “But I still think the unenlightened victim won’t be able to distinguish the two though. Even though one is institutionalized and one is not, you don’t think that the victim would feel oppressed either way? In both instances, they’re feeling not welcomed, and the locals don’t have qualms about showing it.”

    No, I think they would. You would feel quite a bit differently if some random people were hassling you in order to get you to move out of their neighborhood, than if several police cars rolled up and told you that you HAD to get out or face jail. It’s quite different.

    And even the unenlightened victim must take on some responsibility for his/her perceptions. If I visit Birmingham AL, and am chased out of town by some drunken racists, I can’t just decide that Birmingham is a racist city, or that most of the people who live there are racists. I have to be fair. Even if the experience was frightening and unpleasant, it gives me no right to then start formulating my own stereotypes, based on the incident.

  151. @ Ben II
    “Affirmative Action *may* hurt APA college admission”
    -It is institutionalized racism but it is done to benefit blacks and hispanics. The same groups that king wants asians to ally with. Ironic no?

    “Mass Media under and misrepresentation of APA men”
    -Institutionalized, but not white necessarily.

    “Immigrant quotas from Asian countries”
    -I’m not aware of this issue, nor am I discounting it. Please tell me more about it.

    All I’m saying is, perhaps asians have their own grievances with the establishment, but I think these days it has very little to do with the color of skin. Whether from the people being oppressed or the oppressors themselves.

    @ King
    “Secondly there is really no such thing as “Black Interests” and “Asians Interests.” There are human interests that may affect certain groups to a greater or lesser degree, but they always overlap in some areas.”
    -By your logic, there would be no white interests either. Thus, no white oppression.

    “Please quote the place where I said that Asians should unite with Blacks? If I said that, I don’t remember it. Just give me the quote, if you don’t mind.”

    “They are not in misalignment either. Sure, there are different concerns in different communities, but we come together where there is common ground and common cause. Black people have been getting screwed by the White power structure for a long time, Asian people, have been feeling the pinch from that same White power structure. But you’re right… why would that give us anything in common?”

    What else would you be trying to say king? Again, where do black and asian interests intersect? How come all the sudden you want to say there are no such things as black interests or asian interests? Is it because you are beginning to see that you cannot say exactly what interests blacks and asians have in common? (politically speaking)

    “Now when this happened, the “No Chinese Allowed” signs came down at the same time as the “No Blacks Allowed” signs. The neighborhoods that were “redlined” for Whites only, opened up to Koreans on the same day that they opened up for Blacks. The discrimination in the workplace statues, the union memberships, the social clubs, all worked the same way.”
    -I don’t understand why this had to be such an issue. Why didn’t you just say this in the first place? I agree with this particular observation. You are right about this. On the other hand, I think our interests have diverged by this point at 2010.

    “They are not nearly as bad or as many as they where in 1965, but let’s not deny that they are there.”
    -How can I deny them when you give me no concrete, contemporary examples of such? Are asians discriminated against? Sure, but I don’t buy the whole its the white man/white power structure thing keeping us down. Which is what you believe. Which I can quote you easily on ;)

    “And another problem is that the institutionalized racism of the past, has served to promote intra-minority suspicion, prejudice and contempt. It has left many with the belief that we all have separate issues that rarely connect and that each group should work with the White establishment on it’s own—never as a consolidated group.”
    -Not really king. Intra-minority suspicion? Surely it wouldn’t be because of things like this.
    -http://articles.sfgate.com/2010-04-18/bay-area/20854594_1_punched-father-son
    -http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/7007174.html
    It is things like this that promote intra-minority suspicion, prejudice and contempt. Not some past institutionalized racism. Lets be real here. There are more stories like this as well. Stop shifting the blame to some anomalous white racism bogey man.

    @ TZ
    -Hey thanks for taking up for me way earlier in this post. I know that we probably don’t see eye to eye on stuff, but I’m thankful for your reasoned responses.

    “Off the top of my head, I think of Arizona, and how the effects of that adversely affect Asian immigrants.”
    -I wasn’t aware of that, I thought it only affected hispanic immigrants. Additionally…illegal immigration is a big problem. Not the immigration part, but the illegal part. In this kind of economy, they take jobs away from all people of all races, even other hispanic people. However that is an entirely different subject, wayyyyyy out of the scope of this debate.

    “Also, are we all having this discussion with the same definition for “institutional racism”? Some might argue that the lack of Asians in the media is a form of institutional racism. Hollywood’s intentional inclinations to still cast white people in all main hero roles. What was that recent movie. That cute little boy who was a monk and his eyes glowed and I think he had a big stick or something? That comes to mind as well.”
    -For me personally, I believe institutional racism does exist, but it is not widespread, nor is it somehow affiliated with an insidious pro-white power structure. I mean if you look at how successful asian people have been in america, can you really say that the “man” has been keeping us down? As for hollywood and its bias, anybody remember the new karate kid? Not only are asian kids depicted as villians, but also the black hero kicks their asses and takes the asian girl. How overtly anti-asian is that?

    “The main problem in 2010 is that the institutional racism of yesteryear has resulted in many Asians, both Asians in Asia and Diasporic Asians, to harbor internalized racism. Can I say that? “harbor intenralized racism”? Man, my grammar is all off today. Argh.”
    -Internalized racism is a rather subjective concept. It would be hard to make an argument that internalized racism has kept the chinese people down. Look at how successful china is becoming. Also, could you give me a ballpark figure of how many asians harbor internalized racism? Most of the asians I meet (both fob and born in america) seem to be pretty oblvious to anti-asian racism. Put simply, they just don’t let it affect them and they live their lives. Of course there are asians that are affected by it, but they are the ones who are going to shout the loudest about it as well.

    @ Jaehwan
    “You should take mT’s advice, get off the web for a moment, and talk to people. Talk to Japanese Americans today and see how internment affects them in 2010. You might be surprised what you find. Or go to Asia, and see the lingering shame that came from colonization. Or talk to American black people, and see the humiliation from 200 years of slavery.”
    -Um, if I talked to japanese americans and asked them how internment affects them now, they would probably laugh at me. I doubt the majority of them even care about it. If you are generally successful like them, then you are too busy to get wrapped up in pity politics, especially ones that no longer exercise any direct influence on you. As for asia, don’t forget that one of the biggest and most brutal colonizers was our own brother, Japan. (Rape of nanking anyone? Unit 731?) You cannot deny that. As for american blacks, with regards to slavery, I think nearly every group of people on earth have been slaves at some point or another. Even us koreans. Also remember that american blacks’ ancestors were sold into slavery by other rival african tribes. If you’re trying to make a case for white oppression, you’re not doing a very convincing job of it.

    “Also, if we agree that the burden of proof is on us to demonstrate institutionalized racism (which I think we’ve done),”
    -I’ve noticed that you’ve stopped using the term White Institutionalized Racism, and now just use the term institutionalized racism. Thats kind of funny. So I guess I was right about that?

    “can we also agree that the burden of proof is on HBD proponents to prove that some races are inferior to others?”
    -This is a loaded question and you know it. You purposely choose to frame it in this kind of explosive context, even though its not at all conducive. Sorry, mankind did not create equality, only the concept of it.

  152. “-By your logic, there would be no white interests either. Thus, no white oppression.

    Of course there is no “White interest.” The White power structure is acting just like all single-race based power structures act. It’s not genetically linked to White people. And believe it or not, even the interests of Blacks and Whites intersect at certain points. (mind blowing, I know).

    “They are not in misalignment either. Sure, there are different concerns in different communities, but we come together where there is common ground and common cause. Black people have been getting screwed by the White power structure for a long time, Asian people, have been feeling the pinch from that same White power structure. But you’re right… why would that give us anything in common?”

    What else would you be trying to say king?”

    So… you don’t really have a direct quote that says that Blacks and Asians should get together? Just because their are *some* commonalities in our struggles doesn’t mean that “Blacks and Asians are getting together” like a date or something. It’s more like, all minorities share common ground on some points, and we should ALL get together where we have common cause.

    You are right about this. On the other hand, I think our interests have diverged by this point at 2010.”

    I think that we are often represented as polar opposites of the same stereotype. But if you don’t see it, fine. It doesn’t really matter.

    As for your habit of posting individual crime incidents, think of what you are saying. So as long as there are any Black criminals who attack Asian people (and others) in the course of their criminality, then law-abiding people of both races should be suspicious of each other and keep their distance.

  153. @King

    Regarding Stereotype 2 – What I find interesting is the over-emphasis on ‘leadership skills’ and also how ‘leadership skills’ are measured. In fact, there seems to be a ‘stereotype’ on the type of people that are deemed to have leadership skills – eg. Tall, aggressive, borderline arrogant, outspoken etc. But in reality, for the most of the time, these are not essential qualities for a leader to have.

    For example, one of the best bosses I have worked for is soft-spoken, laid-back and is passive-aggressive at best, but he was really smart, make very good and quick decisions and makes sure that he give credit to the other workers and pats someone in the back for a job well done. And he also works longer hours than anyone else in the office and that’s why everyone loves to work under him. And he’s white, so I’m not saying this just for the sake for the Asian American cause.

    So it is the double whamming of stereotyping on ‘what a leader should be’ and ‘Asian americans do not make good leaders’ that sees Asian americans as ‘undesirable’ leaders.

  154. @ N.

    I totally agree. A lot of the people who are considered to be such good leaders are in reality only good at looking like they are in charge. They make al lot of wrong decisions, don’t think ahead, and poor to average people skills.

    What they are good at is ACTING like they’re in control and projecting confidence even when they have no idea what’s going on.

  155. ^

    Sounds like a good description of some black people.

    What about the black-Asian gap? I think we should discuss this gap instead of the B-W gap seeing as how no one in this discussion is white.

    “I think that we are often represented as polar opposites of the same stereotype. But if you don’t see it, fine. It doesn’t really matter.”

    That’s because the group differences between these two groups of people look like this.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race,_Evolution_and_Behavior

    Stereotypes are based on real or perceived group differences.

  156. Its pretty funny listening to a black guy tell me (an asian guy) what my experiences as an asian american should be and precisely what kind of discrimination I encounter. Whats funnier is the fact that his assumption is totally off the mark. Also…whats wrong with asians wanting to be accountants and engineers? I meet a lot of well adjusted asians that are just that. I don’t hear them complaining. Or maybe we should do the opposite of what we’re expected just to “break the stereotype!” Yeah, that makes tons of sense.

  157. Sounds like a good description of some black people.

    But sounds even more like some Asian guys who run low traffic blogs who are studying Science… I cannot disclose what type of science. But study science!!! Lolz!

  158. Yes, AD, because your experience defines Asianess. If you haven’t experienced it, then it doesn’t happen.

  159. I have to admit guilt–this thread has become a very guilty pleasure of mine, lol. It’s like a car wreck and I can’t help but rubberneck…Hey, at least it’s fat / sugar-free!

    But how about this for an example of White Institutionalized Racism:

    “According to recent figures, 5 percent of the current staff at the Warner Robins Police Department is black, Holmes said. During the 2000 census, Warner Robins’ population was 32.1 percent black.”

    From :
    http://www.macon.com/2010/04/06/1084125/houston-naacp-president-addresses.html

    Or this:

    Racial Composition of the 110th Congress

    U.S. House U.S. Senate Census 2006-2008
    White 357 ( 82.068%) 97 ( 97%) 74.3%
    Black 41 ( 9.425%) 1 ( 1 %) 12.3%
    Hispanic 25 ( 5.787%) 1 ( 1%) 15.1%
    Asian 10 ( 2.298%) 1 ( 1%) 4.4%
    Native American 2 ( 0.4597%) 0 ( 0%) .08%

    From :
    http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/minority_senators.htm
    http://www.house.gov/daily/demographics.htm
    http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/ACSSAFFFacts?_sse=on&_submenuId=factsheet_1&_ci_nbr=&qr_name=&ds_name=&reg=&_industry=

    And I just had to answer this one:

    -Um, if I talked to japanese americans and asked them how internment affects them now, they would probably laugh at me. I doubt the majority of them even care about it.

    No, we probably would not laugh at you. And I can’t speak for everyone, but my family cares very much.

  160. AD:

    Um, if I talked to japanese americans and asked them how internment affects them now, they would probably laugh at me.

    Haha…”probably.” Just like I “probably” was trying to plant a trap by inviting you to debate live.

    Try it, man. Get out and talk to people. I’m totally serious. You’ll be surprised at what you find.

    And no, I’m not going to analyze this on the blog because you can’t get experience through analysis. Go out and ask. Ask ask ask.

    -I’ve noticed that you’ve stopped using the term White Institutionalized Racism, and now just use the term institutionalized racism. Thats kind of funny. So I guess I was right about that?

    I don’t think I’ve ever used that term. Not recently, anyway. So nope, wrong again.

  161. Asian Dude- don’t know if your questions are directed toward Jaewhan or everyone in general, but here’s my take on it.

    1) Some samples of wide scale discrimination against Asian Americans:

    While Asians are well represented in many white collar jobs (even “overpresented” in some cases), there is a disproportion (a lack) in leadership positions.

    Discrimination in science, where there are a lot of Asians present (along with engineering)- For example, at the National Institutes of Health, Asians make up 13% of the workforce but only 5% at midlevel management and 3% at topmost senior levels. While Asians represent 23% of those holding tenure-track positions, only 12% of those are at tenure or senior scientist level. I think Asian of Reason might want to be concerned about this if he has dreams of becoming a scientist.

    http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/career_magazine/previous_issues/articles/2009_05_29/science.opms.r0900072

    In government jobs, Asian Americans are also discriminated across the board. For example, in the Department of Health and Human services, Asians make up 5.3% of the permanent workforce, but only 2.3% of mid level management . At the Department of Veteran Affairs, Asians comprise 6% of the workforce but only 2% at mid-level. Social Security Administration has a 4% Asian participation rate, but only 2% at mid-level management. Asian Americans in these jobs also have the highest reports of discrimination (31%) of all minority groups, higher than Black Americans.

    http://www.eeoc.gov/federal/reports/aapi.html

    Of the Fortune 1000 companies, Asian Americans make up only 1.4 of the top executive positions. Overall, 95% are white male, even though 57% of the workforce is ethnic minorities, women or both.

    Executive Summary: Fact Finding Report of the Federal Glass Ceiling Commission, 1995.

    2) If one believes there is discrimination, and that it is faced by almost all minorities, it seems fairly simple to me to see that Blacks, Asians, and other minorities have common goal and purpose. Fighting discrimination anywhere, is to fight discrimination everywhere. While common racism and mistrust exist between all demographics (so no, not just whites are racists, everyone can be racists), I believe discrimination against minorities greatly exacerbates these conditions.

    As I’ve shown before in a previous post, sufficient evidence proves that blacks are discriminated in areas like housing and loans which keeps them in a level of poverty, segregation, and poor educational access. Any group that has lost rights, economic opportunity, and social mobility will lash out when things reach a boiling point, and in this case, Asians are unfortunately the common scapegoats. No, I do not excuse the actions of black individuals who have caused property and personal harm to Asians. But there are reasons behind these conflicts, and resolving those conflicts so we can all live together like good neighbors is a common goal that will benefit us all, including whites.

    3) Look at above. It all ties together. Demanding equal opportunity isn’t the same as demanding hand outs. Nobody here is looking for special treatment. In fact, you will find that everyone on this blog is your typical bootstrapper- hardworking proud Americans who make a living, raise families, fulfill our civic duties. The one difference is that we don’t take anything for granted and we believe in exercising our rights in fighting for equal treatment for all Americans. It doesn’t matter whether we make up 5% or 40% of the population, because history has shown that if you allow one form of discrimination against one demographic, chances are down the road you’re next.

    4) It doesn’t change my opinion on HBD at all, actually. I think it’s perfectly normal that someone, somewhere will eventually come up with a similar idea. It doesn’t change the nature of the idea and its ignoble history in this country. I mean, China could well be the new colonial asshole now, but that doesn’t change the fact that the U.S. has been (and in some cases, still is) a colonial asshole.

  162. You know, I STILL don’t get how the SAT score gap is proof of HBD. Can somebody please explain that to me? I mean, there are a lot of factors that can contribute to the gap, but to simply look at it, and say, \HA! Genetics!\, isn’t exactly great science. In fact, it’s not even science. SAT isn’t a measure of intelligence, it’s a measure of how much you studied for the SAT. Just ask any test taker.

    Haven’t we already discussed how small the difference in IQ is between white and black Americans? If the SAT is comparable to IQ (which it is NOT), the gap would be much smaller. And speaking of IQ, if one is to look at the rise of IQ scores worldwide in the past few years, it accelerates way faster than the possibility of genetic mutation.

  163. @ King
    “Yes, AD, because your experience defines Asianess. If you haven’t experienced it, then it doesn’t happen.”
    -And you would know wouldn’t you? Because my experience does not fit what you think it should, for some reason that should not count towards asianess. Who made you the arbiter of asianess? My experience is just as valid as anyone elses, and definitely more valid than yours. I don’t tell you how to be black, don’t tell me how to be asian.

    @ Ricecakerabbit
    “U.S. House U.S. Senate Census 2006-2008
    White 357 ( 82.068%) 97 ( 97%) 74.3%
    Black 41 ( 9.425%) 1 ( 1 %) 12.3%
    Hispanic 25 ( 5.787%) 1 ( 1%) 15.1%
    Asian 10 ( 2.298%) 1 ( 1%) 4.4%
    Native American 2 ( 0.4597%) 0 ( 0%) .08% ”
    -I’m not going to argue with the statistics, but I wouldn’t jump to consider this white institutionalized racism. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. Think of this, who elects the senators? The people do. The united states is 75% white. So yeah. I don’t know if one could consider it institutionalized racism because really you must “blame” the voters. However I feel that they are entitled to vote for who they want to, as are you and I afforded the same privilege.

    “According to recent figures, 5 percent of the current staff at the Warner Robins Police Department is black, Holmes said. During the 2000 census, Warner Robins’ population was 32.1 percent black.”
    -I want to reiterate that I am not saying white institutionalized racism does not exist. This whole time I have been discussing it in the context of if and to what degree it affects asian americans. Not black americans, not latino americans, but only asian americans. Sorry if there was any misunderstanding there. However… as for my two cents on this particular issue, i’m aware that the city of Warner Robins is host to a rather large military installation, I wonder what percentage of the 32% of black people there are military. As you know, military people can’t serve on the police force.

    @ jaehwan
    “I don’t think I’ve ever used that term. Not recently, anyway. So nope, wrong again.”
    -You’re right, instead you use charming vernacular such as this:

    “The funny thing is that once Massah is out of the picture, they can’t function on their own. They’re used to doing the Massah’s bidding that when Massah leaves the house they become helpless.”

  164. @ Leon
    -No, you are more than welcome to answer.

    1.”While Asians are well represented in many white collar jobs (even “overpresented” in some cases), there is a disproportion (a lack) in leadership positions.”
    -To me, the fact that asians are extremely proportionally represented in many fields makes it extremely hard for me to accept an argument that asians are systematically discriminated against. (otherwise, how would they have even got that far in the first place? Why even let them get their foot in the door if they are really racist against asians?) Additionally I find it telling that in the second link it says this:

    “The findings here are complicated in that Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders do not across the board make less money than their white counterparts after accounting for things like education and experience. ”

    -So not only are asians well represented, we also get paid the same as our white counterparts.

    As for the fact that asians may face a “bamboo ceiling” (I really hate this term btw, sounds so…gimmicky.), I’m of the opinion that that particular phenomena may reflect on certain shortcomings of the asian people themselves. Out of all the asian people I’ve met, most are more than content to just blend in with the group. There is of course, nothing wrong with wanting to do that. I’m of the belief that asians are simply more collectively minded. This goes for both fob as well as asians born here. So theres a good possibility that perhaps there is a genetic underpinning for this. However that doesn’t mean we lack leadership, but perhaps we do not possess it in the same quantities as westerners. (Which again is not a bad thing, whats wrong with being more collective as opposed to being more individualistic? Who decides such things? I see nothing wrong with collectivity.) Of interest though, is In the table provided in the second link I saw that whites make up 11.3% of managers, while asians make up 9.7% of managers. (Pacific islanders are 6.2% of managers.). The difference between 11.3% and 9.7% is not drastic. Its not something to me that would necessarily imply systematic discrimination. Seems like asians are actually doing pretty well for themselves.

    “In government jobs, Asian Americans are also discriminated across the board. For example, in the Department of Health and Human services, Asians make up 5.3% of the permanent workforce, but only 2.3% of mid level management…”
    -I took a look at all of it, and it seems to be highly variable. I mean take a look at this.

    (1st column is permanent work force, 2nd is midlevel, 3rd is executive.)
    DOC – Patent & Trademark Office 25.61% 11.39% 21.60%
    DOC-Census 3.38% 2.24% 3.40%
    Department of Health and Human Services – HIS 0.96% 1.63% 3.65% (????? this one is especially strange. If anything its weighted in favor of asians.)

    -There seems to be very little discrimination there. For a lot of the agencies it just seems to be highly variable. I don’t see a consistent trend of discrimination.

    “Asian Americans in these jobs also have the highest reports of discrimination (31%) of all minority groups, higher than Black Americans.
    -I’m not discounting this at all. I only wish that the link had more specific data pertaining to that particular fact, perhaps detailing specifically what kinds of discrimination.

    -All in all, if there is a glass ceiling effect in place, I don’t really think its wholly attributable to racism. Again, I am of the opinion that it could have cultural/or genetic underpinnings. Of course racism probably plays a part, but I just don’t see it as being a widespread phenomena. I’m on the fence about this one.

    2.”If one believes there is discrimination, and that it is faced by almost all minorities, it seems fairly simple to me to see that Blacks, Asians, and other minorities have common goal and purpose. Fighting discrimination anywhere, is to fight discrimination everywhere. While common racism and mistrust exist between all demographics (so no, not just whites are racists, everyone can be racists), I believe discrimination against minorities greatly exacerbates these conditions.”
    -Seeing how if asians are indeed the recipients of racial discrimination, then they would face different kinds of discrimination than blacks. I have a hard time seeing large numbers of blacks marching besides asians in order to better help the plight of asians. I don’t really see how blacks and asians would in very concrete, tangible terms ever end up helping in each other out, beyond moral support, if even that. However I don’t rule it out, it just doesn’t seem very likely to me. Additionally as I have brought up in previous posts, who’s discriminating against who? I can get on board if we shed the whole us (minorities) vs the establishment thing. To me, that’s overly simplistic. I don’t feel that minorities face one common, monolithic enemy. The “enemy” is multifaceted and manifests differently according to who you are. Essentially, different people have different issues. And then of course here is where we completely diverge at opinions, you believing in discrimination and me believing in HBD. Also I guess i’m not a very big fan of masking over inter-minority racism/antagonization just to present a unified front. Of course, just my two cents.

    3) “Look at above. It all ties together. Demanding equal opportunity isn’t the same as demanding hand outs. Nobody here is looking for special treatment. In fact, you will find that everyone on this blog is your typical bootstrapper- hardworking proud Americans who make a living, raise families, fulfill our civic duties. The one difference is that we don’t take anything for granted and we believe in exercising our rights in fighting for equal treatment for all Americans. It doesn’t matter whether we make up 5% or 40% of the population, because history has shown that if you allow one form of discrimination against one demographic, chances are down the road you’re next.”
    -I am still not really convinced about the pervasiveness of anti-asian racism. I mean you gotta admit, for 5% of the population, we are doing spectacularly. If we were so discriminated against in the present context, there is no way we’d have been able to achieve as much as we have. There is very little discrimination holding us back from succeeding. I mean hell, look at Jerry Yang. I can name dozens of successful asian americans that I know personally. In fact I know more successful asian americans than non successful ones. I don’t think this would be possible in an extremely hostile, discriminatory environment.

    4) “It doesn’t change my opinion on HBD at all, actually. I think it’s perfectly normal that someone, somewhere will eventually come up with a similar idea. It doesn’t change the nature of the idea and its ignoble history in this country. I mean, China could well be the new colonial asshole now, but that doesn’t change the fact that the U.S. has been (and in some cases, still is) a colonial asshole.”
    -It wasn’t so much about HBD itself. It was more about the perception that HBD is used to justify “white racists”. In any case, if you choose to heed it, just a bit of advice, don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Knowledge is not good or bad. The same genetic research that is going into HBD in china will also reap benefits for all of humanity later on. Knowledge is power ;)

    “Haven’t we already discussed how small the difference in IQ is between white and black Americans? If the SAT is comparable to IQ (which it is NOT), the gap would be much smaller. And speaking of IQ, if one is to look at the rise of IQ scores worldwide in the past few years, it accelerates way faster than the possibility of genetic mutation.”
    -15 points, I think like 1.5 standard deviations IIRC. As for IQ scores rising world wide, can you give me a link for that?

  165. \My experience is just as valid as anyone elses, and definitely more valid than yours. I don’t tell you how to be black, don’t tell me how to be asian.

    I’m not saying it isn’t. I’m saying that just because you are Asian doesn’t mean that your own experiences are reflective of what happens to all Asians.

    Where was I telling you how to be Asian?

  166. King,

    “Where was I telling you how to be Asian?”

    The same place that I told him about “white institutionalized racism.” He can’t argue with what you’re saying, so he’s arguing with what you’re not saying.

  167. RCR,

    I didn’t know you were Japanese American. I didn’t want to waste my words on you-know-who who doesn’t seem to be trying to learn anything new here (or doing any work by actually going out and talking to people), but lots of these successful Japanese American businessmen that he’s talking about care very much about the internment. Of course they care–many of the Japanese American family businesses on the West Coast had to close down or relocate after the orders. That tends to affect how one views the world. And the human toll was tragic.

    Have you heard of Densho?

    http://www.densho.org/

    It was started by a Japanese American former Microsoft guy.

  168. @Asian Dude

    I thought RiceCakerabbit have given some good figures that supports the existence which you just fend off.

    Will you try to fend this off too?
    http://www.civilrights.org/archives/2010/06/995-asian-american-unemployment.html

    “Asian Americans with advanced degrees are more likely to be unemployed (4.8 percent) than Whites with advanced degrees (3.2 percent). Asian Americans with bachelor’s degrees are also more likely to be unemployed (7.2 percent) than Whites with bachelor’s degrees (4.7 percent).”

  169. Have you heard of Densho?

    I have, yes. Though I think it’s been several years since I checked them out, the website looks totally different than I remember. Looks like lots of interesting new stuff on there, I’ll have to look at it more in depth.

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  171. You’re too hard on Sailer. He openly admits that Asian people are more intelligent that White people, so he’s not some sort of White supremacist.

  172. So… an Asian supremacist would somehow be better… I see.

    Bear in mind that Sailor only thinks that Asians are better at book knowledge, but lack the creativity, leadership skills, and flexibility to rule the world. That is a job for White people.

  173. I agree with King. Sailer relies on stereotypes. That book knowledge stereotype has always been there, so I don’t know how Sailer is being any more creative than any other person from racism past or present. In his world, the leading White people always rise to manage the book smart yellow people.

  174. i couldn’t be bothered to read the whole thread, but if it hasn’t been brought up already: the new ‘model minorities’ are actually black Afro-Caribbean and African immigrants. there are black professionals who have higher education rates than Asians.

    however, since they get lumped as \black\ with everybody else, the averages go down.

    all this proves is that US immigration officers have done their jobs and only allow highly educated legal immigrants into the country.

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  177. It’s too bad this blog doesn’t have a better format for these sorts of discussions, as a forum format would probably make people’s posts and responses, arguments and rebuttals much easier to follow. Very interesting either way, although I admit I had to skip some of it because it was getting bogged down (might go back and re-read it later).

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  181. As an Vietnamese-American, I have rarely experienced any racism here in the U.S. I can only recall one episode where I encountered racism by Whites. But then I have also encountered Blacks and Hispanics who were racist against Asians, so it does not seem that most of the racism is coming from Whites. Of course, the people here might blame an omnipotent White power structure that promotes inter-minority tension as the cause of inter-minority racism so that all the blame is ultimately placed on Whites. This kind of view is simpleminded; as Asian Dude has stated, the real situation is more complex than just Whites versus everyone else. I have never felt held back because of my race. I have managed to graduate from a good university because I worked hard and I know many successful Asians. If there was a White power structure that sought to hold back non-white minorities, I doubt Asians would be so successful.

    Whites are the most represented in politics and the media, but that is because this country was founded by Whites and they are currently in the majority. If you go to a majority non-white country, are other races represented in politics and the media? In Japan, non-ethnic Japanese people will never be considered Japanese no matter how long they or their ancestors have lived in Japan. An immigrant will have more opportunities to succeed and be treated with less bigotry in some White countries than in some Asian countries. So I disagree that racism is something that is unique to Whites or even expressed most strongly by Whites.

  182. Fun,

    Adding to what Raguel said (and I did say something about the slurs), ridiculous and nonsensical comments like the one above are the reason why you often find yourself the target of attacks–not just by him, but by everyone. I’m just sayin’.

  183. I get along with most white guys, but not ricechasers, they are a different species altogether.

    Especially the ones that think they are an honorary Asian because they are dating one.

  184. N, since you bring up “rice chasers,” I am curious, how do you feel about Black “rice chasers?” How do you define “rice chaser?” It’s defined as someone who pursues NE Asian women, correct?

  185. And from that one statistic, you think Asians are more successful than Whites in the U.S.

    No need to put “nonsensical” in quotes.

  186. I was defining success in very narrow terms. When American’s think of “success” we normally see it through the lens of monetary abundance. Granted, success can mean a wide swath of other things, including leading a happy life, educational achievement, a good relationship with family, and so on. In fact “success” is purely subjective and can be any multitude of things as defined by the individual; so, depending on how one views “success” Whites, or Blacks for that matter, may be more successful than Asians. Looking back perhaps I should have qualified “success” a little more, and to the extent I did not I was unclear.

  187. Wow! Just saw this. The only question I have for anyone who’s met him, is he really 6’1’? Seems like an exaggeration like something a PUA would claim.

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  190. So let me get this straight:

    Its okay for the author(s) of this blog to hold a grudge against and blame white people (as King so clearly does; unless he’s actually referring to males when he writes about the MAN) for all that impedes your progress, but not for Asian of Reason or John Derbyshire to hold a grudge against NAMs (even if their anxiety or aversion is well founded and, perhaps scientifically founded) for making their world just tad bit less civilized and unsafe?

    I am tired of NAMs (and quite a few AM) playing the “race” card whenever there feelings are hurt or when someone calls them out for acting ridiculously or playing to stereotype (King). Fortunately whites and AM are increasing playing with a separate and superior deck of cards that does not obsess over race, gender/ sex, or ethnicity. You and your ilk are relics. Time and history have passed you by.

    Sorry: individuals make the beds they sleep in. And if you must find someone to blame for the woes of NAMs I would suggest that you start with the Democrat and Progressive parties. Jim Crow was Govt. employee after all.

    And I love how NAMs are treated in such reverential manner when addressing issues like bogey poverty and its antecedent discrimination. Are you an auto-didact or do you have a degree in Black Studies/ victimology? Who are your heroes? Derrick Bell? Barack Hussein Obama? Jeremiah Wright? “Skip” Gates? Howard Zinn?

    I think that you must be a little pissed off envious because all those asian women are marrying white males not asians or blacks. Sad really. I guess that falling love with someone who is not of your own race is taboo, or should be made so once again, right? If you have, married outside of your race, you must be a self-loathing sellout or a conquistador at heart, correct?.

    Grow up guys.

    I know now not to click a link to this site ever again.

  191. Mark, I can see that issues about race are something you hold very dear and important, especially when it comes to the representation of your own. However, your essay above is all over the place, which makes it difficult to understand just what point exactly you are trying to get across.

    May I suggest that the next time, before you write, take a deep breath and collect your thoughts first.

  192. Mark, the notion that “the Man” refers to ALL white people is patently incorrect. That term refers to a White-favoring system that benefits all Whites (to a degree) but is NOT representative of, or supported by all Whites.

    You should start by ceasing to assume that you understand things that you clearly do not. And nobody is saying that there is not plenty of blame to go around either. A recognition of socially enforced disadvantage does not negate personal responsibility, BOTH have their effect.

    Can you really be so blind that you can’t even see the social forces at work in front of you? Do you really think that the world you see today is totally divorced from the hundreds of years of White assholery that ensued in the past few centuries? I’m not even saying you have to personally own it all, but at least have the passing decency to acknowledge it.

  193. @Mark

    It’s obvious that there’s only two types of white guys that will find their way to this site. You either love HBD or you’re a ricechaser (or both), so which one are you?

  194. Today I learned: Asian dudes – especially Asian dudes whose name is ‘Asian dude’ seriously kick ass.

    Also, you know that myth that all Asians are just drones who think in a ‘hive mind’ – usually at the behest of visceral racists like the resident black supremacist who wants to whip up hatred?

    Well, I’ve read a pretty awesome discussion/debate by mostly Asians who have widely different views and gave the blog owners a run for their money.

    Asians all think alike? Pfft.

    P.S. Also hilarious to witness the bitter racist tears of the resident black supremacist when his angry calls for race war get ignored – and openly mocked. Then he gets mad and starts telling Asians how they should act like Asians. What the fuck does he know about being Asian? Hilarious!

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