Quest Crew
I’m at the car dealership right now, getting one of the seatbelts on my car fixed. I accidentally broke it while installing a car seat, and now it’s gonna cost me. But man, this waiting room is high tech. Free wireless, free donuts, free coffee, lots of big screen TVs with CNBC. Plus a kids area.
Anyway, a fellow bigWOWO reader e-mailed me a link to a fashion and writing blog written by two Asian female bloggers. I thought it was an interesting blog since it was written by two young Asian women from top-tier MFA writing programs who were interested in fashion. You can tell the women are very smart by the way they write. These women are the type who read French poetry, get turned on by reading Joyce, and are totally off the wall artsy. There was a post about Orientalism and fetishism in fashion advertising that the bigWOWO commenter linked. The woman ripped a new one into Christian Dior with charges of Orientalism, and the post was so popular that Jezebel reprinted it. Clicking through the links and posts–and I wasn’t trying to find this, I swear–but I learned that one of the bloggers is married to yup, you guessed it, a White man, while the other is dating yup, you guessed it, a White man. I won’t link their blog because I don’t feel like pissing anyone off (and I do appreciate that they spoke out against orientalism), but I’m sure you all can find it on Google.
I was talking to the aforementioned bigWOWO reader, who is an Asian female, and I pointed out that once again, the AFCC was recruiting members like sugar to fire ants. I know, I know, politics and personal are not supposed to overlap. But it’s hard for an Asian male to read through a rant about how bad White men are against minorities because of colonialism, sexism, Orientalism, and god-knows-whatever-other-isms, and then see that it comes from women who are both married or serious with White men, to the exclusion of the many single Asian guys out there. And yes, there are lots of single Asian men out there. Figure in the fact that artsy Asian women who rant non-stop about these -isms almost always limit their dating pools to White men, and it becomes hard to hear for an Asian brother. In stock market terms, it’s like pump and dump. “You are against White racism? Great! But you won’t date me because you’re only attracted to White men? Ch*nks need not apply? Uh…great, I guess. I’ll support you. Sure.”
Anyway, my co-commenter and I were talking about artsy, Wei Hui types, and how they almost ALWAYS date White men, occasionally mix it up with a Black or Hispanic men, and, in the words of the ever eloquent tokyolovestory from the Fighting44s, “avoid Asian cock like it was the plague,” and my co-commenter said to me, “Well, when you were single, and if you were younger, would you date an artsy woman like this, or would you judge her?”
I said I would definitely date someone like that, and she said, “You wouldn’t see a woman like that as wife material. Very few Asian guys would.”
Maybe. Okay, she’s right. They’re not my type to begin with. I think I’m more of someone who wants to be a community builder rather than a rebel. In my case personally, though, total artsy Asian women are usually completely turned off by guys who like me anyway, guys who are in fields like banking and who read angry writers like Frank Chin and Malcolm X. If an Asian brother had any chance at all, he’d have more luck if he were holding a book by Dostoyevsky or Proust than one of the rabble rousing men of color.
Anyway, two thoughts:
1. Logically, Asian men should support women who speak out against Orientalism, regardless of who the women marry or what their sexual race preferences are. But I do think Asian men are justified in the feelings that arise when said speaking out comes from AF/WM, given the history of the pairing, and given the fact that y’all are still shut out.
I mean, Asian men are human. We are emotional beings. The fact that an entire demographic (artsy Asian women) shuts us out is reason enough for us to experience negative emotions when getting involved in activist endeavors among demographics that shut us out. If we were all like Spock–which is something I sometimes feel the Kingstonians want us to be while they run off with Captain Kirk or Scotty while stepping over Sulu–we could act rational about this and keep our emotions separate. But I don’t think we should aspire to become Spock. Spock’s lack of emotion was one reason that Captain Kirk was above him. Captain Kirk had to “translate” by explaining to Spock what the rest of the crew was feeling because Spock couldn’t figure it out himself.
The answer, I think, is to express our emotions and to accept them. I think we can do this without offending people. It’s the Buddhist way of accepting what you’re feeling. Take logic as logic is, and acknowledge the logical points that people say. It’s not because we disagree with what they’re saying or whom they date, it’s because we Asian men have a growing desire to experience life and to be recognized as full human beings across all demographics. It’s a perfectly natural human reaction to gravitate more towards that which validates you–both in the political and personal realm.
2. I think there need to be active subcultures. I’m not a super-artsy type, but we need to encourage super-artsy Asian male types to succeed and to find themselves. Asian men and women come in all shapes, colors, and sizes, and it’s important that we encourage diversity of thinking and lifestyles within our population.
(Pic from here. I have no idea who Quest Crew is, but it’s another subculture that we need to encourage.)
Related posts:
I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
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I wouldn’t say...
I think someone on the Fighting44s website said it best (I’m not sure if it’s you Jaewhan or somebody else), “You can’t fight the white patriarchy by fucking the white patriarchy.”
Urb4n also came up with an analogy about vegetarians who eat steak for dinner.
Both are fairly accurate, IMO.
Or is it a PETA activist who eats steak for dinner? Sorry, it’s been a while.
Jaehwan, you don’t know who Quest Crew is? C’mon man. Victor Kim is dating Lizzy Anderson the hot white blonde cheerleader for the San Diego Chargers!
But to address your point you bring up, imagine if it were the other way around and we were dating all the white girls. Would we be the ones bitching and screaming about orientalism? I doubt it.
My take on this is that this isn’t about Asian women seriously defending their Asian heritage, this is about acting like a goddamn feminista pissing off about some shit they don’t practice what they preach. Its called a performative contradiction which really nullifies any of these arguments these Asian women make.
The fact of the matter is this, these bitches are just as bad as the next white guy who goes around emasculating the Asian-American male and promoting orientalism directly or indirectly. Asian women can refute all they want as to how their “dating preference has nothing to do with the Asian cause” but that is unequivocal nonsense. Dating & Relationships IS the heart of the topic when people speak of orientalism. It sure ain’t as big of a fuss as white America bastardizing sushi.
I said hamburger, not steak.
I think this is a bit of confusion of anti-oriental ism/anti-Asian fetish with Asian empowerment.
I doubt those women care all that much about the emasculation of Asian men in the media or the undesirability of your average Asian guy. They care what affects them directly, which is Asian fetish. IMO they want to be desired by the men in power (which is white), but not by those white men with obvious Asian fetish. So in another word, it is not the status quo they are challenging, but the inner working and power balance (of the Asian women and the white male patriarchy) of the current status quo.
Now, there are a lot of Asian issues that affects both men and women equally, such as media yellowface, violence against Asians, foreigner stereotypes etc. But there are also issues that have far more impact on the male demography, while others that have far more impact on the female demography.
So just because they are speaking out against Asian fetish and doesn’t mean they care about their male counterpart, just like the PUA could care less about how Asian fetish are affecting Asian women.
The truly sad part is, Sometimes, it appears Blacks, White women, heck, even white men are more vocal and/or knowledgeable about problems facing Asian men than a lot of Asian women.
The biggest problem is that a lot people take their voices as voice of all Asian Americans, when they really are just speaking for their specific group withing their demography.
PS. The quest crew is often considered to be the second best crew ever on “America’s best Dance crew”. (The best one is also made up mostly of SouthEast Asians). In fact, pretty much every crew that has won that show either had Asian dancers or made up mostly of Asian bboys. This show was one of the best thing to happen when it comes to Asian (male) representation.
PSS.
Just want to state that the statement about Blacks and White people sometimes being more vocal/knowledgeable about issues facing Asian men. It is pure anecdote on my part, and there are also lot more Black and White people in the West then there are Asians.
You’re assuming there is a one-size-fits-all rule that may be applied here, and that simply is not the case. There are so many variables that go into who we meet and fall in love with. I doubt any of the women activists mentioned are in any unequivocal way “not into Asian guys.” They weren’t into the Asian guys they met, which is plausible. They were, on the other hand, really into this one guy, and dangit his ethnic origin isn’t Asian.
With that said, it IS problematic when any person says explicitly, “I am not into [insert ethnicity here] guys/girls, period.” Especially if that ethnicity is their own. You may hold the feet of any such person to the fire for all I care. But to write off all APA female activists who incidentally happen to be in a romantic relationship with a white male (or white female…what are your thoughts on that, by the way?) is unproductive and divisive.
Also, permit me to rearticulate the point from which this post arises: Byron read an article that impressed him. He read the biography of the author of said article, and that biography impressed him more. On her merits, the author of said article was thoroughly impressive. Then, Byron discovered that the author was dating/married to (I forget which one) a white male. Somehow that singular personal fact deflated the author’s merits. The question presented is why.
The situation cannot be compared to the vegetarian who eats steak for dinner (or a hamburger) because the vegetarian’s stance is that eating meat is murder, therefore immoral, or the way we obtain our meat is unethical, etc. and therefore, we should abstain from eating meat. The Asian female is not proffering any stance on race and dating. She isn’t even saying all Asians should only date Asian, and then goes off to date a non-Asian. If that were the case, then I see the controversy. Rather, she is saying, “I stand here to fight racism.” So why is her personal incident of falling in love with a non-Asian hypocritical? How does that undermine her stance to fight racism? Now if she fell in love with the grand wizard of the KKK…now that is something you can blog about.
As for the statement “You can’t fight the white patriarchy by f/cking the white patriarchy,” she’s not in bed with white patriarchy; one guy who happens to be white, and who more probable than not has similar sociopolitical stances as that Asian female activist, is not “white patriarchy.” Not too long ago wasn’t there a post on this very site about not punishing the son for the sins of the father?
From as young as I can remember to this very day, I have been and am a zealous advocate of Taiwan independence and wield a great deal of pride in being Taiwanese. However, I fell in love with and married a Chinese national, and not just a Chinese national, but one who is zealously in favor of a so-called united China, as zealous about it as I am about an independent Taiwan. Now does the nationality of the man I married undermine my enduring dedication to a political cause that I believe in to my core? I hope not.
MaSir,
I don’t know if I would call them “bitches,” but you do bring back a good point that people sometimes don’t see–Asian men as a group are more likely to face “discrimination” in the IR disparity than in any other endeavor–finding a job, finding a drinking buddy, etc. Most Asian men would watch 100 Gedde Watanabe Long Duk Dong portrayals if it meant killing the IR disparity once and for all.
Ei,
You’re right. They just aren’t looking at it from our perspective. I think they should. It makes their position stronger. PUAs don’t look at the female perspective (or anyone’s perspective other than their own), but they are not mainstream. Kingstonism, on the other hand, which totally ignores the AM perspective, is mainstream, which is quite sad.
I don’t know if I would call them “bitches,”
I would.
Hey TZ,
Thanks! I hope this response isn’t rambling, but you gave me a lot to think about, and I’m doing so as I type…
For the record, I’m still VERY impressed with the woman’s accomplishments, and that remains unaffected by her AFCC disclosure. I also agreed with MOST of what she said about Christian Dior, although to be fair to me, I wasn’t in complete agreement–I was never against the Harajuku Girls, and I think Gwen Stefani is awesome and beyond reproach. Plus Gwen Stefani fell in love with a man of South Asian descent…which of course impresses this WOWO with its disregard of racial societal norms, and of course demonstrates an open-minded moral upper hand with respect to the Asian female blogger. Finding out that this woman was part of the Asian Female Celebrity Club did not affect my view of her resume at all–she ought to be very proud of what she’s accomplished–but it destroyed a good amount of the emotional credibility behind her Christian Dior post. I logically still think she’s right, but after learning about her AFCC membership, I’m a LOT less emotionally invested.
You wrote: \With that said, it IS problematic when any person says explicitly, “I am not into [insert ethnicity here] guys/girls, period.” Especially if that ethnicity is their own. You may hold the feet of any such person to the fire for all I care.\
My question is: how is it different? If a landlord says, \I don’t rent out rooms to black people,\ how is it different from if he tacitly refuses to rent out rooms to black people but doesn’t explicitly say it? Voicing it may cause more damage because it could embolden others, but don’t both courses of action, spoken and tacit, hurt black people? If an Asian woman says, \I don’t date Asian men period,\ how is it different from her simply not dating Asian men period?
I think we’re all struggling to come up with an analogy to help us flesh out this phenomenon and our feelings with respect to this phenomenon. As I think we all agree, I’m not the only Asian guy who feels this way. Et tu, Jarah? Et tu, Hong Kingston? Et tu, Asian female bloggers? It’s a very complex matter that deals with individual choice vs. group dynamics.
Maybe the community store analogy that urb4n came up with. These women are complaining about how mainstream stores do business with them or advertise and represent them, but then in their own business, they refuse to sell to Asian men, who have trouble finding stores that will take their money. Women like this complain about how White mainstream companies depict them, but then they limit their dating pool so that it excludes all men who aren’t White. It seems to be a contradiction–maybe not to the level of a vegetarian eating hamburger, but maybe similar to an environmental activist who drives an SUV to a Greenpeace meeting while preaching against airplane overuse.
Here’s what I think the issue may be: They assert that their issues are important to a group that oppresses them, but then they ignore a group who are oppressed by their actions or preferences. Christian Dior isn’t guilty of a malevolent action, just a choice. And it’s the same thing with the Asian Female Celebrity Club.
To check the validity of this statement, perhaps there are two questions that we need to answer:
1. Did these Asian women just happen to fall in love with White guys after giving all other guys a chance, or do they exhibit a racial preference?
2. Does it harm society when an Asian woman chases after White guys to the exclusion of Asian guys?
Here are my answers, and feel free to disagree:
1. I think it’s hard to see that 100% date White (and yes, if we remove Yiyun Li from the equation, virtually 100% of artsy women date White) and attribute it to chance and \just happened to fall in love.\ It’s gotta be a racial preference. The numbers don’t support claims of randomness.
It’s like looking at a software company in San Francisco who has hired thousands of White men and no one else, and then says, \Well, White guys just happened to be the best qualified. I couldn’t find any Asians who fit the bill.\
Now all of you will probably say, \Oh, a software company that hired NO Asians would get its assed kicked in the marketplace.\
BUT…what if almost ALL software companies hired White men exclusively and had a history of never hiring Asians? Asian men would never get an opportunity to show that they can program. Asian men, these days, are not getting the opportunity to show that we are sentient beings.
2. Literally, MOST of my best AF friends are married to White guys. I support it. Some of these women are activists too. But as un-PC as it may sound, when that woman happens to write or practice activism and fall back on justice arguments, I think it hurts the argument. Remember urb4n’s friend who killed himself? I’m not saying that women should make dating decisions based on what society wants them to do, but if we treat society as a living organism, in the words of MLK, \Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.\ It’s okay to date White, but it really does undermine one’s words to preach against discrimination while practicing it so blatantly. It makes it harder for social change to take place.
We’re no longer just talking about ONE Asian woman refusing to date Asian men. We’re talking about institutional discrimination. (I’m not using the term \racism\ because I think it’s too strong, but \discrimination\ would be technically correct, right?) And when it’s practiced by one who rants and curses against White hegemony while limiting one’s dating choices to only White people AND while being part of a demographic that contributes to our portrayals in the media, while it’s not technically hypocritical (like the vegetarian who eats hamburger), it raises serious enough questions on whether these women really have the sensitivity to understand what is really going on in the world around them.
And it repels Asian men from their cause. Not that they need us anyway, but I’m just saying…
Why did WordPress change my quotes into backslashes?
I forgot to address the cross-straights thing. One Taiwanese nationalist woman dating a Commie (sorry, Hubby…just kidding!) isn’t going to hurt anything. But what if a large number of Taiwanese nationalist women were gunning SPECIFICALLY for Chinese guys? What if 100% of Taiwanese nationalist women were dating Chinese guys? What if Taiwanese nationalist women were writing books depicting Taiwanese guys as weak and effeminate compared to guys from Red China?
These women are full of shit. Nuff said.
Jaewhan nails it right on the head. It’s not just about who you chose to fuck, it’s about agency and it’s about empowerment. For some of us in the IR debate, we’re not fighting individuals, we’re fighting racist trends. If all things are equal, the case of these women who just “happen” to find the perfect white guy instead of Asian wouldn’t amount to anything. But taking the disparity, the white hegemony, the media racism against Asians and particularly Asian men, and everything else into account, the fact that practically every Asian woman in IR just so “happens” to find her perfect “unconditional love” in a white man starts to, well, stink. And like Jaewhan said, individual Taiwanese women marrying Chinese men wouldn’t be a problem, but increase that to 40% of Taiwanese women outmarrying to Chinese men, add anti-Taiwanese men propaganda to the mix, and I’m willing to bet my life that some of those men in Taiwan would raise hell. And they would be right to do so.
On the issues of these two bloggers who decide to marry/date white men, that’s their decision and their right and it’s not my business. However, when they start discussing “Orientalism”, Asian fetishism, and other racism toward Asians, then that suddenly effects me. The issue of orientalism isn’t about any individual Asian woman. It’s about racist and sexist attitudes toward all Asian women, Asian cultures, and all Asian MEN (something that these bloggers usually neglect to remember). Because you cannot objectify Asian women without demonizing and emasculating Asian men at the same time. If you chose to tackle larger issues and advocate for the community, then you put your own personal life under public scrutiny. Asian women who believe that their personal life have no bearing on their political life are naive at best, dishonest at worst.
Let me offer my own analogy. Let’s say during the previous presidential campaign, you advocated for Obama. You extolled his virtues, you praised his agenda and you encouraged everyone you knew to vote for him. So come election day, you stepped into the booth and decided to vote for McCain, instead. Now that vote is your personal choice and your right. But how would your choice effect the larger picture? How would other people react to your decision given what you’ve told them? Most importantly, who do you empower by making one of your most important decisions as a US citizen? Now imagine if 40% of black women voted for McCain instead of Obama? What difference might that make? Imagine if that 40% claims to back the Democrats yet still votes for the Republican candidate every 4 years? Would you still trust them? In fact, imagine what kind of shifts in the political landscape would such a scenario create?
As predictable as the sun coming another IR thread!
It is amusing to read all the analogies people make (no matter their point of view).
I will say it is somewhat misrepresenting the case that it is an even choice for Asian women. As has been mentioned many times before in the dating marketplace Asian women are valued highly. There are a number of reason for this, a couple are Asian women are probably at least a bit more educated and earn more than the average woman, and of course…they are thinner on average. So good looking and able to afford to keep looking good. Of course this broad generalization but I would say it is relatively accurate.
Now the country is like 5% Asian, so 95% of the population is not Asian, and 65% is White. So if you are highly sought after and have more than 10 times more suitors that are white than Asian it is not surprising you might ended up with a white bf/husband.
Now of course there are a lot caveats to this and it is more complex than this (every city is not demographically made up like the whole country). But if Asian men where hit on by 10 times more white woman than Asian women (and those Asian women on average had less desirable physically qualities) would there be any doubt most Asian men would be married to white women? It doesn’t mean they are excluding Asian women, but if they just picked randomly they would be much more likely to ended up with a white women.
So while it is easy and understandable to have resentment, logically speaking the disparity is not caused because Asian women are excluding Asian men.
(some might be yes)
Basically as the point that has been made by others is work on increasing your value, it is the only way the demographics will change. Calling Asian women bitches will do nothing.
“So while it is easy and understandable to have resentment, logically speaking the disparity is not caused because Asian women are excluding Asian men.”
That was the joke of the century. Logically speaking you are flat out wrong. If I had a got a dollar for everytime I saw the “looking for SWM” or “I only date white guys” I’d be retired.
This sort of subtle but widespread discrimination would hurt young men the most because they start learning about dating and courtship and start forming their attitudes and self-worth during puberty, when they start interacting with women beyond the platonic level.
I notice that a lot of older guys almost seem to have their attitudes and behaviors already hardwired into them.
I suggest that it’s not the overall dating environment that dictates an individual Asian man’s success in the mating game but specifically his personal experiences and environment during puberty that will allow him to develop.
Perhaps more focus should be shifted to what us individuals can do and contribute to making a more empowering environment for these young men.
We’re the new invisible men…I don’t know how it got to be this way, where everyone is indifferent to us. But the media constantly reinforces a kernel of truth and creates a reality. Just in today’s Washington Post Style section, On Love, where they do fluffy pieces on people getting married and how they met, blah blah blah…once again, they’ve got a Asian woman marrying a Caucasian guy.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/12/AR2010081206613.html
I won’t make judgments on the woman but once again, the Washington Post has told similar stories and I don’t believe I’ve seen more than one where it was an Asian man marrying out. Or even an Asian man marrying within. Just one Indian guy marrying a white woman. Out of the entire DC metro area, a fairly diverse region, just one. People know what they see. And they don’t see us. They see Asian women marrying white men. That has become the norm since there is no media balance featuring Asian men. We’ve been neutered by the media.
Also, it reminds me of the stupid Wash Post’s Sunday magazine section called Date Lab, where they set folks up on blind dates and report about it. One, a few years ago set up an AA guy and girl. Both of them were so oblivious to what they were doing to each other and to themselves. The woman said stated that her date was okay looking, but she said but “you always have to end it with, ‘for an Asian guy’ “. WTF??!!!
I can’t find the actual link to it, but the Wash City Paper had an essay about the inherent racism in Date Lab and it touched upon the Asian couple and their stupid statements about Asians:
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2010/07/19/a-brief-history-of-date-lab-racism/
So would a letter to the Wash Post columnist asking for balance even help? Over and over again, it gets thrown into our faces that we don’t count.
What up J. Firstly just to say thanks for sharing your cuddly post about the garage and the kids play area. Secondly thanks for sharing about the garage with free coffee and donuts – im truly jealous:P
Regarding the AF hypocrisy, simply, AM should IR date more with more white women. Lets face it, whether AF is rebelling against some kind of ancient footbinding karma and found the answer in their great white hope idealism…none of that matters any more.
By the way Im not sure whether this white man fetish is so prominent amongst the 20something mindset as there seems to be more ‘azn pride’ , but more amongst the older gen who are more racially segregated and didnt feel as much community ( brought up in small towns and maybe didnt have 1st gen immigrant parents like 20somethings.
Anyway. AM need to date white women more openly and publicly, just like AF have done with the WM – to ‘even the score’. I guess this whole topic could lead down the ‘well what if i only like AF’ butt unless AM take this route, the stereotype will persist and personally i wouldnt wait for the modern ‘media’ to change its conservative brainwashing ways any time soon. Personally speaking ive never had problems getting AF or WF. And most of my relationships are personal choices and chemistry.but to beat the sisters at this game of white fetish , we gotta play the game as well as if not better rather than waiting for ‘positive rolemodels’. It aint gonna happen and life is short and its up to the individual to take the initiative and change this image instead of sitting paralysed on the sidelines. The next step for whoever is having this prob is to start selfconfidence classes, dating online, NLP, or whatever. God forbid you could be dead tomorrow. Live life….thats all i’m saying.Time to take action if you havent already:)
@ Lingyai
I don’t normally care to engage in debates on IR but this comment struck me! I think that one of the main reasons that Asian women are highly valued is precisely because of exoticization, Orientalism, hyper-sexualization and fetishism. Obviously there are many Asian women who hate this and vociferously oppose this kind of stereotyping. In fact, it’s something of an axiom of protest that Asian women embrace this opposition to fetishism. Yet, clearly, Asian women also benefit from this process – they become more highly valued than other groups.
Is it inconsistent to benefit from being so highly valued as a potential partner whilst at the same time decrying the process that confers this value?
Um. Okay. So when I lived in Minnesota, back when I was the artsy-type who hung out with musicians and the grungy kind of people, all those Asians men who wouldn’t even look my way because I didn’t fit THEIR perfect picture of an Asian woman they’d date/fuck/marry can turn around and call me a traitor or a bitch because I did marry a white guy?
Now that I am engaged to an Asian man, what does that make me? And yes, I did speak on behalf of Asian men, Asians in general, against Orientalists, against my own white husband who had assumptions…
How is this productive? So only Asian females who are married to Asian men can be activists? It’s only sincere if you’re fucking a fellow Asian?
What is the point is this kind of activism? All Asian men can participate but only Asian women who are loyal enough to fuck only Asians may apply?
Going with personal experience, I’d have to say that Asian men have a pretty high standards when it comes to dating. When you reject anyone who doesn’t fit your cutesy submissive cheerleader jackoff fantasies, you don’t get to turn around and start questioning an Asian female’s right to fight against Orientalism, racism, and to promote more Asian American visibility in the media. Start thinking about it as OUR fight – not Well, they don’t fuck my kind so fuck those bitches.
Another Asian blogger recently blogged about the same thing – how she didn’t fit the typical Asian guy’s fantasy and, although she had crushes on Asian men, they all had crushes on that ONE girl (usually the one who’s gotten so much plastic surgery she doesn’t even LOOK Asian – my words, not hers)… and now, to find out that there is this resentment/anger/hatred from the Asian men camp… well, that doesn’t sit quite right. She was a bit ticked off – rightfully so, I think.
Maybe this is more of an East Coast thing – because ever since I’ve heard about this gripe, I’ve asked around… and most of my Asian female friends from the midwest and the west coast have told a similar story as mine. Unless you were the typical Ivy League aspiring, violin-playing, size -2, covering your mouth while laughing, Asian woman, you were SHIT OUT OF LUCK and you might as well go with one of the gazillion white dudes who want you.
Are we so ahead in this game of Asian empowerment that we are rejecting the same women who may have already been romantically and sexually rejected because they didn’t take their rejection well by moving on to others who didn’t reject them?
Are we really that far ahead in the activism that we have exclusive an Asian-Fucking-Women-Only club? Really?
I didn’t call you a bitch or traitor. I don’t think that’s very productive either. On the other hand, I believe Asian Americans deserve better advocates, and that means Asian women standing beside Asian men. And yes, I would demand the same from Asian men who claim to advocate for the community. If you’re not an advocate, then these standards do not apply. You can be happy marrying who you want. I just tend to have standards for our community leaders, one of which involves displaying some solidarity. Is that too much to ask?
And you know, I’ve heard about a lot of these complaints from Asian women. How they’re ignored and rejected in high school and how Asian guy’s standards were too high, etc, etc. I guess some of them are finally starting to get it. Welcome to my world. And now maybe some of these women need to start realizing that Asian women, and women in general, BEHAVED AND CONTINUE TO BEHAVE IN THE EXACT SAME WAY. Wanna hear some sob stories from some of my less-attractive, less successful Asian male friends? What do you think their chances were in high school? What do you think the standards that adult AA women have for AA men? Does the IR disparity ring any bells? How about I ask uRB4N or Kobukson to list some statistics on how much an Asian man must make income-wise compared to other men in order to be considered dating material? How about some statistics done by OKcupid.com on the chances for AA men?
And ok, so you were not popular in high school. How long was that ago? Are you STILL hung up by being rejected in high school? How is it that only AA high school guys behaved this way, and some how ALL the other non-AA guys are miraculously unprejudiced and unbiased? Which high schools did you girls go to, anyway? Because in my childhood, ALL the guys acted this way. How is it that only AA men are being punished for behaving like boys when there were boys? In case you haven’t bothered to realize, some of us have grown up and learned to value other traits in women. Maybe it’s time for some of the women to grow up as well instead of, you know, date white men only and reject AA men because you have an axe to grind.
Dude. I’m 40. And I am talking about my 20′s and 30′s. These were Asian men in their 20′s and 30′s.
I went to an international boarding school in India. And that was actually the last time I dated Asian boys. (Until now – I’m engaged to an Asian man.) Actually, I was very popular in high school, thank you very much.
When I came to the U.S., I was fairly popular in college and post-college years including grad school – except with Asian men. And no, it wasn’t about rejection or that none of them would fuck me. Some were so “hung up” as you say with their high school rejections that they wouldn’t even ask a girl out. Some were looking for a white girl. The rest were looking for a stereotypical second generation Asian American girl. I didn’t fit the bill.
I am not denying the statistics. But the sweeping generalization that all Asian females who marry white men are not qualified to be activists? That’s mighty short sighted.
I nearly fell out of my chair with joy when I read Mama Nabi’s comment. She put it way better than I could have. Applying the mentality generally espoused in this thread, if Mama Nabi wrote an anti-Orientalist article and published it back when she was married to a white guy, that article would hold no credibility, BUT if she wrote and published the same exact article now, engaged to an Asian guy, that same article suddenly holds water? Really? From now on when I write on this very subject, I should include in my bio at the end of the publication not only my academic credentials and prior publications, but also who I am married to? That information should go on my CV now, right? After Languages Spoken and Hobbies, I presume? Or do you think it’d look better before?
How can you APA male activists recommend in the same breath that Asian males should date out more while Asian females who date out should not consider themselves credible APA activists? In a nutshell, Asian males who are getting summarily rejected by Asian females are hereby advised to date non-Asian females, but Asian females who are getting summarily rejected by Asian males should, what, sit home and suck their thumbs, marry Asian or die an old maid? Who now is the vegetarian eating a hamburger for dinner?
P.S. Wow this thread moves really fast. I didn’t hit “Submit” fast enough and now my previous reply seems kind of null after Leon and the second MN post.
@ Leon: We’re not, or at least I didn’t think we were talking about high school, nor are we even talking specifically about social outcasts. Referring back to Byron’s original post, we’re talking about women who are physically very attractive, but who are, uh, free-thinking free-spirited folks engaging possibly in promiscuous behavior or who “read Dostoyevsky or Proust over Frank Chin and Malcolm X” (referring back to original post) or just women who are outspoken and strong generally, especially the “popular” Asian girls. “Popular” Asian girls almost never get approached by Asian guys, no matter how many signals or sideways eye glances or smiles the girls cast over across the room at the Asian guys she’s interested in.
Ah, I see what you’re saying now. Funny, if you read any relationship discussions involving AA men, you know how they describe AA women? Aloof, holds ridiculously high standards for AA men, never paid attention to them no matter how nice or hard working or good looking or rich they are, always chasing after white guys, etc.
Look, I don’t want to get into a who-started-it argument, but AA men actually have statistics to back those observations. You can’t ignore the fact that some forty fucking percent of AA women marry out, and I could easily imagine 98-99% of them are married to white guys. I’m asking AA women to make a choice because they have choices to make. When 40% of you don’t chose us, that leaves us with precious little to work with, doesn’t it? And it’s not like we have a line of white women (or black, or brown, or any other women) knocking on our doors. It’s ridiculous to suggest that AA men have the same level of access as AA women, and thus the same choices to make. But even then, when it comes to AA advocates, whether they’re men or women, I still hold them to the same standards. How is that not fair?
I’m not trying to be an isolationist. I know it is impossible to have no IR in this huge melting pot of a country. Again, I am not against individuals, I’m fighting against racist trends. We are dealing with a constant, popular narrative that objectifies and fetishize AA women while at the same time emasculates or just erases the existence of AA men. Look at the Apple ads that Jaewhan recently posted. Look at the television shows, the fashion magazines, heck you know what I’m talking about. How is any of this challenged when our female community leaders, whether they’re authors or bloggers or directors, reinforce the narrative with their daily lives? Every action carries a consequence. Our society is powered by media and our consciousness is defined through our observations. Whether you intend to or not, when you chose to marry or date an Asian man, you actually empower the rest of us.
Hell, look at this argument. We’re so used to not see AA men and women together that when I suggest something which should be natural, you all see it as a form of oppression. No solidarity, no trust.
Leon wrote:
“Hell, look at this argument. We’re so used to not see AA men and women together that when I suggest something which should be natural, you all see it as a form of oppression. No solidarity, no trust.”
There’s a huge divide within our own community. That was the point in my previous post and the link that I provided about that AA couple—we’re estranged from one another.
“Other daters are looking to date exclusively white. In 2009, Patrick Chang stated a preference for “Tall, Caucasian women.” Unfortunately, his date told the magazine this: “I tend not to find Asians attractive.” When she met Chang, “With a name like Patrick I was kind of expecting an Irish guy,” she admitted. “I tried to be as open-minded as possible.” The pair declined to pursue a second date.
Excerpt from the Washinton City Paper link i posted:
Chang’s date isn’t the only one to nix the entire continent: In one 2008 date, both Asian daters didn’t date Asians. “I thought he was attractive and well put together, but you always have to end it with ‘for an Asian guy,’” Stephanie Villaflor told the Post. “I don’t usually date Asian guys.” Her date, Christopher Dum, admitted: “I’ve only really dated white girls.” Daters are generally open about their intra-racial racism: In 2006, a half-Filipino, half-Indian guy revealed a prejudice against Indian women—he finds them “a little snobby.”
Why are we so at odds with one another? How the hell did it get like this where we’re adverse to even meeting each other?
A few points:
[0] Let use refrain from using words like \bitch\ or \traitor\.
[1] Anti-Orientalism and anti-Asian fetishism by female activists is poorly understood by Asian-American males. It has nothing to do with building solidarity between AA men and women. Evidenced by the irony that even though these women oppose Asian fetish, they openly indulge in White fetish. Other like-minded feminist females and sympathizing White males are the primary intended audiences of such bloggers.
[2] Given [1], the fact that the person in question is a self-proclaimed anti-Asian fetish activist and is simultaneously in relations with a white male is not a contradiction of principles in her own head. Intra Asian-American gender relations is a low priority, if at all, on this person’s agenda.
[3] If intra-gender relations is an important item on one’s activist itinerary, then yes, being married to a White male is definitely a problem. The fact that many of them are ( and they would have you believe that all these AF activists married to whites is just a big coincidence) would lead any reasonably sane, undeluded person would conclude that this is not exactly a hot item on these people’s agenda.
[4] The frequently used excuse: \I was always ignored by Asian guys and that’s why I’m with a White guy\. Note the following properties about this statement,
- it places the self in a place of blameless victimization as a justification for a choice that person made which is being called into question.
- it is impossible to verify; one must take it on face value despite its inherently self-serving nature.
Now, personally, I’ve always thought the more nuanced and realistic way to interpret that phrase would be as follows:
I was always ignored by the most popular, good-looking Asian guys who seemed to have the most promising future in terms of education and earning potential. Whether or not I was ignored by other Asian guys who did not fall into that narrowband category is inconsequential since they did not figure highly on my radar in the first place. I now enjoy the immense sense of schaudenfreude that I get when Asian guys get upset about the fact that I’m with a white guy.
Now given that hypergamous mothers who influence their daughter’s weltanschauung is pretty damn common in the Asian-American community, this is not entirely unplausible
[5] The fact that many Asian-American women would eagerly and vigorously defend a female activist’s choice to have a white partner, despite the fact that it produces a visceral reaction in potential Asian-American male supporters, means that your opinion as an Asian-American man is worth very little. The fact that one would be hard pressed to find such energetic vigor spent for the cause of intra-gender solidarity (which is frankly what I care more about than some one-sided feminist side-issue) is also telling. The women instinctively know that, given the milieu of Political Correctness in our current zeitgeist, any uninformed observer outside of the community is more likely to side with them, rather than AA men. The argument is won not by merit of reason but by political strength by numbers. Might makes Right.
[5] If his focus is intra-gender relations, Jaewhan would do better to find examples of women bloggers, activists, etc from whom that too is a focus. However, I’m not holding my breath.
Now having said that, I also believe that there is merit to the argument that there are warped, narrow-minded, and self-defeating notions entrenched in our community that lead to second-order consequences that ultimately manifests as the IR disparity.
I was talking to a 35 year old Korean woman this past weekend. She told me that males in our community tell her that the reason why she’s still single is because she’s chubby, or too outspoken, or this or that and the other thing. This kind of mentality is way too common and is left unchallenged. I personally cannot relate to such priggish nonsense.
When you examine the discussions of famous Asian-American actresses such as Sandra Oh and Lucy Liu, one would notice that Asians have this tendency to tear down their looks. Granted one would not confuse Sandra Oh with a Miss Korea. But it turns out that Sandra Oh is a talented actress, plays interesting roles, has an impressionable personality that is far from boring. When one views Ms Oh with a more wholistic perspective, she seems an attractive individual. Ironically, Lucy Liu is considered ugly by Asian standards because she has small, slanty eyes. But white people, especially white guys, admire her looks precisely for the same reason (presumably it enhances her exotic Oriental appeal). Generic white guys tend to do a far better job of showing their appreciation for the Sandra Oh’s and Lucy Liu’s of our community. On the other hand, a significant portion of our community harbors internalized auto-racism. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard Korean ajumma’s saying how some couple’s baby is “good-looking” because the baby has big eyes. For a lack of a better way of putting this, I happen to be an Asian-American guy with a white guy’s appreciation of Asian women. I have no idea how this happened but I also realize I happen to be a minority in this regard.
@Kobukson,
You hit the nail right on the head with this statement,
“I was always ignored by the most popular, good-looking Asian guys who seemed to have the most promising future in terms of education and earning potential. Whether or not I was ignored by other Asian guys who did not fall into that narrowband category is inconsequential since they did not figure highly on my radar in the first place. I now enjoy the immense sense of schaudenfreude that I get when Asian guys get upset about the fact that I’m with a white guy.”
AA women are pretty oblivious to how their counterparts are getting screwed via the media and the dating scene. And even if they weren’t, its not like they would care to begin with. My own sister would say things to me like, “Asian guys have too much of a chip on their shoulders. They need to let that shit go already.”
Let’s face it fellas. We have to pick and choose our battles and teammates. There are certain females who are going to promote us while the others with their “white-knight in shining armor” demote us. These AA women may not chastise us outwardly, but they will push their own exclusive agenda thereby ignoring our plight since our hardship yields no net benefit toward their “activist” cause.
We are much better off joining forces with the following women.
http://somekoreanchick.xanga.com/665117840/why-i-will-never-date-a-white-guy-asian-girlwhite-guy-not-for-me/
WOW! An Asian-American girl who fucking gets it.
This is why I still chuckle to myself when TZ and mama nabi make the same tired arguments which have already been rebutted.
No, you CANNOT (is there anyway I can use Times New Roman 36 font?) be involved with a white man and still support Asian men due to the environmental and social construct created by white men.
Additionally, white society has stipulated that Asian men are not desirable so when Asian men are seen on the street with non-Asian women, it directly COMBATS that notion. When Asian women are with white men, it directly REINFORCES that notion.
Is it fair? No. Is it correct? Absolutely.
Is affirmative action correct? No. Anything that benefits or penalizes someone based on race is wrong. Is it correct? Absolutely because it’s designed to correct a social defect.
During the past few months, I have seriously re-evaluated my own stance about this issue. This is identity politics at its worst. Each side operates from a basic presumption that their own shit doesn’t stink. Each side clings to their own laundry list of grievances and the discussion never evolves to anything besides an endless series of tu quoque rebuttals. The only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from this is that there is plenty of blame to go around, for both sides.
Over the years, I’ve found myself shifting more towards the notion that the root causes of the IR disparity are more internal than external and that I, as an Asian-American man, will have to grudgingly accept the fact that there are things that Asian-American men are doing (or not doing) that exacerbates The Issue. I have decided that the cause of healing and repair between the genders in our community is more important and compelling than a strict adherence to my own gender and race combination. This doesn’t mean I let the womenfolk off the hook. But I invite them to be more forthcoming and honest about their own failures, which they know better than anyone else. In fact, I invite both sides to do this and purge yourselves of some rather nasty personal demons. Once we know what our failings were, then we can set on a path to correct them.
The IR debate in its current state continues to be one of stubborn anger, sense of betrayal, confusion, noise, and self-absorption. If some unseen enemy wished to destroy the AA community by planting seeds of irreconcilable enmity between the genders, there is no better plague than this. Beneath all the indignation, finger-pointing, and nursing of one’s own wounds, I feel as though each side is aching for acknowledgment. Give it. Don’t wait for the other side to make the first move, you do it first (this pertains especially to men). Acknowledge that the other side may have some kernel of truth. Be man or woman enough to admit that you made mistakes in the past. Any coward can point out the flaws in others, it takes a person of character to admit his or her own.
Finally, I believe we must move away from negativity and condemnation to positivity and affirmation. After all the blame-game, accusation of betrayal and white-washing you still have not articulated why Asian-American men are a better choice and why the enhancing of relations between AA men and women is a good thing.
They say that hell is a place where there is a big bowl of soup surrounded by selfish people with 10 foot spoons. Everyone is ill-tempered and everyone is hungry due to the fact that they are so selfish they only think of feeding themselves. They say that heaven is a place where there is also a big bowl of soup also surrounded by people with 10 foot spoons. But they figured out that a 10 foot spoon is better suited to feeding the one directly opposite than oneself. Everyone does this and everyone is happy and well-fed.
Reality is often such that you may find yourself the only one trying to feed your fellow man while everyone else is acting selfishly. Even so, may I have the faith and courage to continue to do what’s noble, admirable, and ultimately right.
Mama Nabi wrote:
\Maybe this is more of an East Coast thing – because ever since I’ve heard about this gripe, I’ve asked around… and most of my Asian female friends from the midwest and the west coast have told a similar story as mine. Unless you were the typical Ivy League aspiring, violin-playing, size -2, covering your mouth while laughing, Asian woman, you were SHIT OUT OF LUCK\
Personally, I was quite baffled by this comment. My gen1.5 and higher friends, in our younger years were definitely NOT looking for those traits in asian women, In fact, they would all be turn-offs. Aren’t these traits strongly associated with fob asians? Many of us guys were insecure with our racial identities as well and tend to distance ourselves from anything fob. Having said that, I (like most guys) am visually shallow and can’t picture letting an attractive woman who is giving strong signs of interest, slip by (with or without those characteristics mentioned)
As a bit of a side note, is there anyone else who is getting tired of all the flaming back and forth? I guess due to the fact that I don’t live where there is a real AA community to speak of, I am a relative newcomer to all of these IR issues between AM/AF and have been interested to hear what’s being said/felt on both sides–but that said, I am already weary of it. The finger pointing, name calling, etc. seems to be going in endless circles with little or no evolution. Sure, we all need to vent once in a while. Sharing of common issues is part of what draws us together as AA’s and discussions, debates, and putting our fingers on specific issues is necessary. But FFS, further polarization is getting no one anywhere but farther back while time pushes forward.
There are people here who support each other. See it. Evolve.
Kobukson, I knew that you’d reach that conclusion, at some point. You’re too smart not to have gotten there in time.
angrybritishchinese:
Don’t be jealous. They ordered the wrong #$% part, so I get to go back again this week! I like their waiting room, but not so much that I would be happy to go back!!!
I can’t believe that kobukson is actually offering an olive branch across the gender divide! Wow. I’m totally amazed. And happy.
RCR is totally right, and I like how kobu talks about priorities. Maybe we need to draw priority lists. MN, TZ, and RCR, if I made an open thread, would you post/discuss AF women’s priorities? The end goal, I think, is an activism that works for men and women.
My point about bringing this woman’s IR up was twofold. First, of course, I had a visceral reaction to seeing yet another couple of AF activists with yet another WM. The ten thousandth time’s the charm, I guess. Second, as some other commenters said, I think it detracts from their activism/ability to get their message heard. Does it change the actual content of the message? No, not at all! But activism is not just about content; it’s also about communication. Credibility is also not just about content; it’s also about communication.
I like TZ’s before and after question, and I think the key difference is communication and credibility. It’s not just retelling the facts. If that were the case, Gore would’ve beaten Bush, and guys like FDR and Stephen Hawking would have no disadvantages in modern TV politics. But as it stands, image means a lot. Context means even more.
Here’s a historical example. Rosa Parks was not the first black person to refuse to give up her seat. But she was the first black person who had a clean enough image to function as an activist figurehead. One woman who preceded Parks was a black teenaged unwed mother who also refused to stand (partly, I’m sure, because of the load she was carrying!). If I remember correctly, another was a druggie. Is there anything wrong with being a teenaged mom? A bit inconvenient maybe, but I personally see nothing morally wrong with it–in fact, it’s common in lots of countries. What about drugs? I know lots of people (well, not lots…but some good people) who do drugs. But it just wasn’t the image that King et al were looking for. So Parks became the symbol of resistance. I personally would never judge the teenage mom or the druggie if they were the leaders of the bus boycott, but then again, none of us would have even heard of the bus boycott since it would’ve failed to capture any momentum.
That’s all I’m saying. I think these two women are right to speak out. The content of their messages are fine, and I hope they continue to speak out. They are very bright, very attractive women with loud voices, and they have a decent following from lots of different feminists. At the same time, however, their activism takes place within a social context, and given the history of the pairing, I think it would be hard for them to create any kind of momentum among Asian men. It almost doesn’t even matter whether AM or AF are at fault for the disparity; the relevant fact is that the disparity exists and that AM will more often than not run in the other direction when faced with another Asian female leader who “happened to fall in love” with yet another man from the majority race. If we want change, we’re going to have to find our Rosa Parkses, people who can QB a population of both men and women.
Do you all agree?
No, I don’t Jaehwan. Not with theses particular women you speak of. It does give me a good laugh though.
@ Kobu: Well said. All true. But the 10-foot spoon and soup story I heard before just a different version– 10-foot chopsticks.
I’d like to comment further but a bit tied up right now with work. =*( So, um yeah, my two-cents forthcoming. Lots of interesting points brought up here.
maybe i’m stupid, but dont any of you think this arguing in circles is stupid?
it seems very simple with me
AMs lack options with women, if they limit themselves to only AFs then they are only fishing in a tiny pond where the fish don’t want to bite your bait. then one solution is to fish in multiple ponds. that way if the AFs aren’t biting your bait, you can still eat from other ponds.
i will say that in general, AFs have stuck up attitude problems towards their AMs more so than other women have towards their own respective race of men. this is proven by countless studies and surveys. this is a problem for many AMs. So avoid the AFs who are causing you problems. DATE OUT. it’s very tough. but just do it, it’s worth it when you can find a woman who won’t see your race in a negative light, even if she happens to be white or latin etc…
Great post.
“Asian men and women come in all shapes, colors, and sizes, and it’s important that we encourage diversity of thinking and lifestyles within our population.”
Great quote. I also believe that regardless of our ethnic backgrounds, we should all embrace each other as merely human beings. and for the record, I DID go after those artsy-fartsy types in college, lol.
Found you on Rice Daddies (which was actually pretty reassuring) while looking for other Dad-Blogs and I happen to find one that also featured AA ones! Good to know there are a handful of us out there
.
King:
Kobukson, I knew that you’d reach that conclusion, at some point. You’re too smart not to have gotten there in time.
Perhaps someday I shall write something that begins with the title of “Something happened to me on the road to Damascus…”
holy cow…wish I had read the comments before posting!
sorry to be hacking this thread…but my two cents (only because I actually posted something along the vein of this topic recently), I don’t see an issue with people loving/marrying/screwing whomever they choose…and one’s success in the dating pool (IMHO) has to do with the quality of your bait, not the color of it. You can’t blame the fish if they prefer a certain type of bait. If you’re a 10 (with no points added due to skin color), you can get ANY woman you desire. If you’re a 6 (with no points deducted due to skin color), you may just have to accept your lot in life, lol.
I also believe that IR relationships and APA activism are two completely separate issues. I, for one, dated across the entire spectrum, but that doesn’t make my activism any less sincere (nor am I suggesting that I was/am a 10 in any way, shape or form).
People will date whatever options they have in front of them. Granted, AF will have more of them compared to their AM counterparts, but who cares? The dating buffet belongs to everyone, and you’re not the only one entitled to the stir fry simply because you’re Asian. And on the flip side, just because the stir-fry is offered means that Asian people will eat it.
People will have their preferences. Having them shouldn’t impact their credibility or prerogatives.
correction:
And on the flip side, just because the stir-fry is offered *DOESN’T* mean that Asian people will eat it.
Ben,
All you need to do is use the word “colorblind” and sing “We Are The World” and you’ll be all set when it comes to social ignorance.
Urb,
I agree with you. Ben’s been drinking the Kool-Aid.
Pay no attention to the 800-pound gorilla in the room!
@ Kobu: Well said. All true. But the 10-foot spoon and soup story I heard before just a different version– 10-foot chopsticks.
I’d like to comment further but a bit tied up right now with work. =*( So, um yeah, my two-cents forthcoming. Lots of interesting points brought up here.
Yes, our IR debates is a lot like a group armed with 10 foot chopsticks around a big cauldron of hot soup.
I’m always game for a lively, spirited dialogue. Looking forward to your thoughts.
TZ,
Like Kobu, I’m looking forward to your thoughts! As someone involved in activism, your further thoughts would be cool to hear. I think Asian American men are looking for a heroine. Or even if they’re not looking, it seems they could use one.
There is something to what Ben says. If you are a “10″ say like a tennis pro like Paradon you can date who you want. He married the very white 2005 Miss Universe.
(search it)
this discussion is more for the 4,5,6,7,8s
everyone on here is of course an 8
Ben II (there’s another Ben who posted on this thread),
Welcome, man! Glad to hear that you found this place through RiceDaddies. It’s nice to see another Asian American daddy here! I checked out your blog, and it looks really good. Congratulations on your newborn son! Great photographs, and I like the concept of advice to your son. I would do the same, but my kids have already stopped listening to me!
I think it’s about listening to what people want. Most Asian male activists express some kind of yearning for a better understanding of masculinity, and most Asian men express fear and damage from an IR disparity that is out of control. There is no doubt that across the population as a whole, there is a disparity in preference that can be quantified. Check out my post below for links:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/05/podcast-urb4n-talks-about-ir/
Of course everyone wants to take the higher road and build on what we have, but there’s also value in fighting for equality or some semblance of it. This was the whole basis of Martin Luther King’s activism–it’s really too much to ask anyone to win the race if they start ten years behind. Sure, some guys will just be naturally fast, but what about the rest of the population. Part of the beauty of King’s activism and Malcolm X’s activism is that there was teamwork in making sure good and well-deserving people didn’t get left behind.
There is something to what Ben says. If you are a “10″ say like a tennis pro like Paradon you can date who you want. He married the very white 2005 Miss Universe.
this discussion is more for the 4,5,6,7,8s
Forgive me for I am about to be quite blunt. What a spectacularly useless statement! Yes, I’m quite sure there is something to what Ben said. Just as I am certain there was something to what Marie Antoinette said when she blurted “let them eat cake” when advised that the peasants were restless due to lack of bread.
This discussion is more for those whose IQ’s are not south of the mean.
@ Jae:
Your point about not thinking Gwen Stefani’s harujuku girls to be a big deal sheds light on one of the gender differences. Most female APA activists were deeply bothered by them. The singular fact that Stefani dated an Asian male renders her OK in your book, because in your mind, that’s more than what the female APA activists crying foul can say about themselves. That credit to Stefani, her dating record, outweighs her objectification (and commodification) of the four girls. Where we give and take away points show that there no united APA activist front; rather, there’s the boys on one side, and the girls on the other. How far are we going to get like this?
“They assert that their issues are important to a group that oppresses them, but then they ignore a group who are oppressed by their actions or preferences.”
This goes back to the point in the first paragraph, but this time, the stench is coming from the other side. A lot of APA women don’t stick their necks out to defend APA men, I would agree with that statement. However, I see where they’re coming from. Many of the grow up with the experience that APA men don’t really stick out their necks to defend them. Chicken or egg; each side pointing at the other saying “they started it first.” I get that. I can’t help that I’m a female and see it from the female perspective.
To begin with, many APA women I know have Daddy issues. Maybe most women do, or most women of color, I don’t know. At least among my handful of girlfriends, the Asian women seem to have worse Daddy issues than the other women of color and way worse than the white girlfriends.
Then, the next few Asian males they meet, the teenage boys. Junior high and high school. Less physically attractive Asian girls get it the worst from Asian boys. Asian boys are brutal and merciless if an Asian woman is slightly unattractive, while a plain vanilla white woman will earn unreasonably high marks. I won’t deny that women typically like to fish for compliments, and if we’re fishing for compliments from Asian men, well hah. This brings us to the really attractive Asian women. All men, with the exclusion of Asian men, will compliment really attractive Asian women up and down the wazoo, while Asian men tend to turn into a puddle in front of them. Most really attractive women are too … I won’t use the word shallow but that’s the word I’m thinking of … let’s say they’re used to not having to work hard for ANYthing. And typically Asian men don’t cater to that. So these really attractive women pass them up for the men who WILL make them feel like a million bucks. They certainly aren’t going to work hard to figure out what you Asian men think of them, and they don’t have to, because there are so many other men vying for their attention. That’s why I was thinking of the word shallow. They just go for what’s easiest. They tend to pass up challenges.
Now these Asian women are dating white men for any number of reasons. What do they get from Asian men? The flack that’s been going on in all these IR threads! No matter how legitimate the rantings and rage, you have to see it from the perspective of an Asian woman who is not thinking too deeply about the issue. They’re going to simply interpret it as more justification for why they should avoid Asian men.
There’s also the really problematic matter of Asians viewing whites as superior, and therefore Asian females think that a white spouse is a bigger trophy than an Asian spouse, and as problematic of a matter it is, it’s been well hashed out by many of the folks here, so no need for me to get into it. This, though, isn’t a mentality limited to Asian women. It’s applicable to Asians generally, and manifests itself in women as dating white.
SOMEone needs to end the cycle.
@ Leon:
If Asian fetishism and exotifying Asian women were as big of a deal to Asian men and affected them as they do Asian women like you contend, then Asian men would be more livid than they are over the Gwen Stefani harujuku girl thing. But, as Jae proved, they’re not. The issues are separate. They shouldn’t be, but we as a community have made it separate. Thus, your argument is a bit tenuous if only because subjectively, APA male activists and APA female activists do view them differently. Since they’re different, APA female activists don’t consider themselves hypocrites for crying foul on racism and simultaneously dating a non-Asian guy. I still don’t think it’s hypocritical, unless the woman takes the additional step of doing something or saying something to emasculate Asian men. The singular act of dating a non-Asian man does not emasculate Asian men. Lots of Asian women, 40% of them, dating non-Asian men is not emasculating Asian men. Rather, Asian men are feeling emasculated for other reasons and looking for a scapegoat to blame. Asian women here are the perfect scapegoat. As to why are 40% of them dating out? Refer back to what I wrote in response to Jae.
Agreed that if you go out of your way to get the masses to vote for Candidate A, and then you go and personally vote for Candidate B, you deserve public scrutiny. However, that isn’t the case here. I haven’t heard any of these APA female activists rounding up the Asian girls and telling them, “Girls, we should all date only Asian men” and then go off to date a white guy themselves.
There are race issues and then there are feminist issues. Asian fetishism and the exotifying of Asian women are at that intersection, but many of us will still view it more heavily as a feminist issue.
@ MaSir:
I’ve come across many APA female figures who publicly proclaim “I only date Asian guys” or “I prefer Asian guys” or “Asian guys are sexiest.” Are you seeing them? Looking for them? Or are your feelers out only for the APA females who confirm your prejudices?
@ Mojo:
I’ve had several APA girlfriends with their marriages (to APA males) posted in the NY Times; APA guys marrying white girls. We’re all raising examples that support our arguments. Point is, it’s not as one-sided as you’re making it out to be.
@ Leon again:
“Funny, if you read any relationship discussions involving AA men, you know how they describe AA women? Aloof, holds ridiculously high standards for AA men, never paid attention to them no matter how nice or hard working or good looking or rich they are, always chasing after white guys, etc.”
I contend that one could make the same argument with the genders switched.
When an Asian woman intentionally seeks out white men because she thinks, consciously or subconsciously, that they’re superior to Asian men and she doesn’t view Asian men to be in the same league as herself, there is a HUGE problem. I do not deny that there are a lot of Asian women who hold this mentality. However, I do attack the blanket statements many of the commenters are making here and applying to any and all Asian women who date white and chalking any rebuttals made to “nope, there’s no excuse for it. 40%. Nope. No excuse at all. You’re all bitches.”
@ Kobukson:
“The fact that many Asian-American women would eagerly and vigorously defend a female activist’s choice to have a white partner, despite the fact that it produces a visceral reaction in potential Asian-American male supporters, means that your opinion as an Asian-American man is worth very little.”
No. If the Asian American man’s opinion was worth very little to me, I wouldn’t be here. I am eager to hear the other side, and I have been listening (well, reading) intently. However, when the comments begin to attack women, you better believe I’m going step up and say, “hey wait a minute.”
I don’t eagerly and vigorously defend a female activist’s choice to have a white partner.
I eagerly and vigorously defend a female activist’s choice. Her informed choice. I should be clear. I defend her informed choice.
@ James:
(Not to be confused with my Hubby by the same name.)
It happens. Or at least it happened to me for whatever reason. My entire life prior to marriage, not a single reasonable Asian guy ever EVER approached me or initiated anything romantic unless I gave some really overt really obvious stink-bomb over-the-top sign that I was interested. And let me tell you girls hate it when we have to give really overt really obvious stink-bomb over-the-top signs to guys to get their attention. I included “reasonable” to exclude the PUAs. The nasty name-calling howling sorts don’t count.
@ RCR:
Yes, I’m really tired of it. Part of me doesn’t even want to reply to any of these threads. Rather, I want to sit down and have face to face pow-wows where I can look people in their eyes and try to understand them. But no. Nope. All we have are these threads and these flames.
@ King:
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN? WTF!
@ Ben:
“People will have their preferences. Having them shouldn’t impact their credibility or prerogatives.”
I agree, if the preferences are informed decisions. The problem is, and here I am acknowledging the stink of my own side, many of the preferences are not informed, are not made after conscious evaluation of racial and feminist dynamics. Too rarely do we critique why we prefer what we prefer.
That’s why I’m a little baffled at the attack of these two APA female bloggers in particular. Based on their merits and the information I’ve come across from them, I conclude their preferences are informed decisions.
I agree with TZ. These are all valid issues that should be discussed, but we shouldn’t be so blinded by our own prejudices that we discredit any arguments that counter our own.
I don’t think that demonizing these two women necessarily helps the cause by seemingly deflecting any blame from the AM. Because I don’t think that the AM is entirely blameless either. What issue are we talking about here? The fact that AF are with WM, or the fact a AM can’t get an AF (or WF for that matter)? They are mutually exclusive.
As a fellow AM, I do fully understand the plight of my fellow brothers when it comes to our shallow end of the dating pool. I know, I was a perpetual drowning victim. I’m not here to say that we should become complacent with our seemingly rock-bottom position on the totem pole, but we shouldn’t complain unless we have a solution (and willing to implement it). We quote other activists from days past, and celebrate their accomplishments, but they did more than just complain about being victimized by a majority: they actually did something about it.
Yes, things can be better when it comes to dating and relationships for the AM (and I’m sure the same can be said about AF’s as well). But as I mentioned with my previous two cents, it really comes down to preference. And to claim any sort of discrimination or fetish *may* be a bit over-reaching, because hypothetically speaking, wouldn’t an AF who dates exclusively AMs be considered racist/xenophobic towards non-APAs?
Yes, there is a disparity of AF/WM relationships compared to AM/WF relationships. But my question is, why is that a problem? Are we AM’s *that* concerned with all WM taking “our” women? Who do you blame? The AF? The WM? Society? Are AMs and AFs traitors to their own kind simply because they date outside their own races?
I believe this thread has somehow sidetracked from what I believe was the original question it posed; and it’s whether or not the personal relationships of these two bloggers invalidate their motives, and the short answer is no (based on available information). As TZ mentioned, unless we confirm that their husbands were KKK Grand Masters or keep a healthy library of Asian porn, how can we invalidate the fact that these two consenting adults (with different skin tones) genuinely love each other?
It is for that reason I married out of my ethnicity. I’m doing my part to spread world peace
. And for the record, it wasn’t because I couldn’t find a nice fellow Chinese girl to bring home to mama either….in all honesty, it really was just the luck of the draw. So does that invalidate any causes I may have for my Chinese-American brethren? I certainly hope not.
PS.
And I don’t think the seldom-seen relationships between AM/WF has as much to do with WF’s emasculated view of the AM as it does with the AM reluctance to go after WFs. Though the evidence I will pose is anecdotal at best, my brother and I never had any issues seeking and dating non-AFs.
Yes, we had a handful (okay, I lied…there were plenty) that rejected us, but I can’t specifically confirm (or deny) that race was the primary motive for doing so.
Okay, I’m not an activist; I’m just a consumer so to speak. I’m just your average guy who’s more aware of racial issues than my Asian friends.
People can argue whether an Asian women married to a white man can be a good Asian American activist/community leader/Voice until the cows come home, but the reality of the matter is when it comes to public figures and image, your personal life and your personal action is important.
Assuming everything was the same, would Obama have the same kind of support from Blacks, especially Black female, if Michele was white? I highly doubt it. Same thing applies here as well. Asian people are also people; call it shallow or petty if you want, we are no better or worse than any other race of people when it comes to this stuff.
There is nothing stopping an Asian woman with white husband to be an activist or strive to represent Asian-American male or all Asian-Americans. But with the way IR issue and culture being it is, just expect a much harder climb. All people look at your personal life and your personal action and judge you by it. It doesn’t matter if your audience is Asian, White, or Black.
@kobukson
No kool-aid here, lol. Just not that angry, that’s all. Sure, things aren’t as peachy as they could be, but I don’t think it’s necessarily that bad either. By accepting the handicaps that society seemingly prescribes for you, you end up owning those handicaps. As a matter of personal choice, I simply don’t subscribe to those notions of inequality. I do see those glass ceilings, but they’re only obstacles for those who can’t see past them. I’ve yet to encounter one that’s stopped me from doing what I wanted to do…and all it took was some vision and elbow grease. Complaining about how there’s a glass ceiling in your way isn’t going to solve anything. Sure I may have to work twice as hard to get half as far, and it isn’t fair. But life isn’t fair. I don’t envy the blessings and \luck\ of others, I’m too busy out there grinding out my own luck and getting mine. In the long run, I will have covered MUCH more ground than my \advantaged\ WM-counterparts.
And just went through your blog, looks like we live in the same town (or in the general vicinity, judging by the demographics and landmarks you describe). I can empathize with your convictions, as I’ll concede anyone would be hard-pressed to find an AM/WF pairing in that area/surrounding vicinity
. But in this instance, it may simply be a cultural thing…on the AM side.
TZ,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I guess for me (can’t speak for everyone else!), I don’t question these women’s motives, nor do I question whether they’re good people or not. I do acknowledge that they’re very smart, and at least one of them is stylish. (according to what little I know about style)
But I also acknowledge that I somewhat emotionally trail off when I read an angry rant by yet another AF activist who is part of the Asian Female Celebrity Club. I do question why, and I wonder if they realize–as you say–the way it looks on our end. I think all men do. With the exception of Yuri, the AFCC claims virtually 100% of our Asian female activists. When you talk to these activists (and you can even see some of this with the sites that the two in question link), you know that they are exposed to lots of AM–they just don’t date them. And you question why. Why why why didn’t it happen, and why why why does it happen so often. Why don’t Asian female activists date Asian? Why are so many Fortune 500 companies led by White men? Why are there so few Asian men in leading Hollywood roles? It becomes a sideshow to the content of their message.
I agree with you that past a certain point, it makes no sense to point fingers and accuse people. Bottom line is that it is what it is. We do come from different perspectives as well. For me, I think like a guy. I don’t feel the whole Harajuku girl thing on a visceral level, and I don’t see it as representative of what Gwen or anyone else thinks of Asian women in general. I do acknowledge that it may be only because I’m not AF.
I don’t think it’s possible in this day and age for an AFCC member to unite large numbers of AM and AF on an Asian American cultural level. As I said, MOST of my AF friends are married to White men or date White men exclusively, but I’m talking about arts and cultural leadership. People have big expectations for leaders, expectations that do carry on to personal life, and many Asian men are looking for someone who embodies an image and/or thought process that empowers them. Is this fair? I think it is. If our population could produce just a few Asian female activists married to AM, the AFCC monopoly would be a lot less of an issue. Remember, it’s a monopoly, and monopolies tend to be bad! It really isn’t that much to ask. Again, I’m not assigning blame; I’m just saying that it’s a relatively low hurdle that we have yet to get over. And I think it’s fair to demand–not from individuals, but from the population as a whole–that we pass that obstacle.
Here’s a happy thought–if we could all concentrate on getting past that hurdle and completing it, future AF activists will have a lot more leeway in the public sphere. It’s ironic because by promoting Asian women who are not part of the AFCC, we will enable and empower future Asian women who are. So maybe we need to work on articulating this vision and why we need to push it?
We will then be able to end the cycle.
TZ- You claim that these AA women in IR with white men are coerced into their choices because of AA men’s cowardice, shallowness, hypocrisy, etc. While there may be some truths to that, I have to call BS. If everyone but AA men appreciate AA women, then why is it that these women only return their affection to….WHITE men? Why doesn’t AA women spread their love, reciprocate such attention and date more men of color? Sure, a few of these exist and I respect these women, but 98% of you are oh-so-hurt by AA men so that you somehow MUST run into the tender caring arms of white men. Remember this other thing called white privilege? Let’s not forget about that in an IR debate. If AA women chose other men of color in larger numbers, I might consider the idea that this whole thing is AA men’s fault.
That doesn’t mean AA men are off the hook by any stretch of imagination. I can’t think of a single IR debate where the men aren’t just as hard on themselves, constantly pushing other AA men to better themselves and to treat their opposites better. Yes there are many who are sexist and harsh toward AA women. I do not deny that we have a lot of work to do. Now the BIG question is: what will AA women do? What is their responsibility? So far, all I’m hearing is that they’re the eternal victims, and AA men are the ever-present oppressors. Who’s scapegoating who, now?
And if you believe that when 40% of the women in your own race do not want you does not equal emasculation, then you have absolutely no fucking idea. Talk about lack of empathy. We’re not at this idealized stage of a race-less, everybody-sing-kumbaya society. We’ve BARELY scratched the surface of white privilege and racism. No other community would put up with such a thing. Ask black women how they feel about the IR in their community, and their percentage of disparity is not even close to ours.
Again, I’m not against all IR. The standards I have for our leaders are much higher than my standards for individuals who just want to live a normal life. I’m derailing myself here but I think you brought up some points that I have just have to address. I’m sick and tired of AA men being constantly pinned with this shit. By now you’ve probably written me off as another Bitter Asian Man, but there’s a method behind this madness. I’ll elaborate on that when I have more time.
maybe you all of you guys are of a much older demographic. i know a friend of a friend who’s sister is a 15 yr old korean girl. she’s already told her father that she’ll be marrying a white guy because they’ll make better looking babies. maybe this has nothing to do with psycho cultural babble, but strictly based off of physical preferences which are most likely induced by the media. i’ve met a few AFs in their early 20s who say that AMs are just not “cool enough”
Ben II (love the name!):
You wrote:
But she’s Asian too. So that’s cheating!
Speaking of which, I didn’t know this, but according to “Nothing To Envy” by Barbara Demick, North Korean women have a reputation for beauty that South Korean guys like. I don’t think it’s helped world peace–at least not in that region–but it’s interesting that we have reputations with one another.
For most of the guys and gals posting here, it doesn’t matter on a personal level. I’m married, as is James/Alpha and TZ, and Mojo and others are dating. Urban is in a serious relationship with his Caucasian girlfriend. The world could go ALL WM/AF, and it probably wouldn’t affect most of us on a personal level.
The question, I think, is what we can do to help our fellow men (and women). As you said, you may have to work twice as hard to get half as far. I think we agree on that. But is that healthy for society in general? Instead of having all AM work twice as hard to get half as far, even if we could mitigate that to have AM work twice as hard to get AS far, AM could spend their time doing more productive things with their time. Right?
asianguy,
Thanks for that. Yes, I think people here tend to be somewhere between late 20′s and early 40′s. I’m always curious as to what is going on in the younger generation.
@ Leon:
“You claim that these AA women in IR with white men are coerced into their choices because of AA men’s cowardice, shallowness, hypocrisy, etc.”
No, I didn’t say that. Crazy that’s what you read and interpreted from what I wrote though. My meaning was that we choose who we date based on our experiences, and generally speaking, I’ve heard disproportionate testimonials from Asian women recounting truly negative truly horrific experiences with Asian men. That’s possibly a reason why they choose to date non-Asian men. Similarly, I’ve heard Asian men on this forum claim that their experiences with Asian women were so negative and horrific that they will never date an Asian woman again, even to go so far as to say they summarily find Asian women unattractive, period. Hmm…
“If everyone but AA men appreciate AA women, then why is it that these women only return their affection to….WHITE men? . . . If AA women chose other men of color in larger numbers, I might consider the idea that this whole thing is AA men’s fault.”
As social conditions are, Asian American women aren’t exposed to and interact with as many other men of color as they do with white men. When they do, then yes, it happens in great frequency. Where I live, half the Asian women I know in relationships with non-Asian men are with men of color, not white guys. A lot of the artsy types referenced in this post also tend to date men of color over white guys. I’m friends with many of them so over a period of time, I get a more comprehensive sense of their dating …. records? preferences? statistics? demographic? Can’t find the right word…
“And if you believe that when 40% of the women in your own race do not want you does not equal emasculation, then you have absolutely no fucking idea. Talk about lack of empathy.”
I’m saying that the phenomenon of 40% of APA women not dating or married to APA men is not a direct cause and perhaps not even a proximate cause of any conscious, intentional decision to Not Date Asian Guys. The reason for the out-dating phenomenon is attributed to other causes. The fault does not rest on the shoulders of APA women. Yes, we’re the scapegoat. We are totally the scapegoat. There are a gazillion reasons why it happens, and yet the blame falls on APA women. All the other causes become incidental, secondary in your mind.
“We’ve BARELY scratched the surface of white privilege and racism.”
Uh, yeah. That’s definitely a more front and center cause for the disparity than “APA women are all traitors and bitches.”
There’s a lot of pot calling the kettle black here, I’m noticing….
@jaehwan
I genuinely appreciate your diplomatic facilitation of this thread. Based on prior experiences, emotional topics such as these can get rather….abrasive, and quickly too.
I don’t wish to denigrate the plight of the AM. I know firsthand the struggles that an average AM goes through in this American society. But I just think it’s too one-sided to be pointing fingers without also examining what we as AM can do to fix this situation.
I’m just curious to hear what their proposed solution is. That AFs date exclusively AMs? That WM stop taking *our* women? That WFs start finding us AMs desirable as well? What will it take to placate their concerns?
Yes, we live in a very xenophobic society, even within our own subcultures. Many of my BIL’s guy-friends will prefer to die lonely virgins than to date a non-Korean. But I don’t believe that makes them racist, per se. It’s their preference. But by limiting their dating options, they can’t complain why there’s so little to choose from either.
I whole-heartedly agree with you on the point that we should try to level the playing field, but IMHO, I believe there IS progress, even from 10 years ago. You go and try to find a woman who wouldn’t want to rip Daniel Dae Kim into pieces….with their mouths.
i’m in my mid 20′s about to graduate college. i’ve lived in the SF bay area and southern california. i usually socialize with women and men between the ages of 21-30. i’ve noticed a very clear trend of AM/XF usually AM/WF that is slowly growing in the younger demographic. I myself am semi-seeing a WF right now.
i’ve noticed the “leverage” and attitude problems with many AFs i’ve encountered. it wasn’t always like this. earlier in the 2000′s, i didn’t run across nearly as many stuck up AFs. IMO i think AFs just get too much attention, many many AMs are desperate because they are:
1. discriminated against by society via stereotypes
2. they have ZERO game relative to white or black or hispanic guys
because of points 1 and 2, AMs tend to be very desperate and hold on to dear life if they can ever land a woman. usually AM who lack confidence & game end up only hitting on AFs thus boosting the AFs ego and her validation even more than it already is. i used to be super AZN pride back in the early 2000′s, it was sometime around 2008 that i got sick and tired of the attitudes of AFs that i encountered, that i realized that XFs can be a significantly better option. at the very least i need to diversify because of the inherent cockfest if all AMs stick to AFs.
i eventually started hanging out in more diverse social circles. in fact, it’s gotten to the point that now in the bay area where i’m staying, the majority of the people i hang out with socially are NOT asian. (i think having a racially diverse social circle of friends is VERY important for AMs if they’re trying to date out)
*** i’ve been running across a few asian guys in their late 20′s and early 30′s that have very sad personal lives. im talking about 32 year old virgins. i dub this the lost generation of AMs.
@jaehwan
you wrote:
“North Korean women have a reputation for beauty that South Korean guys like. I don’t think it’s helped world peace–at least not in that region…”
That’s because their fearless leader KJI is batshit crazy, lol.
Why it still matters.
I disagree with those who say that IR disparity issues are done to death and needs to be silenced. I happen to believe it needs to evolve into a new direction. The reason why it feels like a stalemate is because it rarely manifests itself as anything but a back-and-forth blame game between men and women. Blaming the other side only raises their defenses and deepens their entrenchment into their own little foxhole of hurt feelings and grievances. We as a people have been wandering around in the desert for 40 years when it comes to this Issue. Unless we figure out how to love instead of hate, we are never going the reach the Promised Land.
I come from a tradition that says before you complain about the speck in someone else’s eye, first pull out the plank in your own eye. The blame game is ultimately an exercise in futility. It’s never impartial. You can never fully trust the accusations that men levy toward women. How do I know you’re not making stuff up? But yet you clearly have an agenda and an axe to grind. No one is fooled. The same is true vice versa. The only words that can be trusted are confessions of one’s own guilt. This discussion needs more honesty. The blame game only builds further mistrust between two sides locked in perpetual enmity.
Despite the fact that both men and women are responsible in their own unique ways for this rather sad state of affairs, ultimately men must shoulder the full responsiblity. There lies within our midst a chasm because men have failed at leadership. Where there is no leadership, there is demoralization and scatter.
Where are the women who support us? Do not be so surprised that there are so few women hanging around when a typical discussion centered on IR disparity matters seems to have all the irresistable charm of a 17th century witchhunt. Do not expect women to take the initiative to take this discussion into a different direction. It is men who must woo and lead. Again, it is a question of leadership.
What is it that we appreciate or love about our Asian-American sisters? What are those unspoken things between AA men and women that make our mutual bond something that is worthwhile to protect, cherish, and honor? Where are all you emo types, skilled at the art of poetry, music, or wordcraft to take these ideas from imagination to reality. For I know, having endured the death of a thousand cuts that is the IR disparity, encountering expressions of love, hope, and faith from a fellow sister would be like finding an oasis in hurt’s desert, washing over like a warm, soothing balm, and heaping burning coals over one’s head, and softening even the most hardened heart of a hard-headed curmudgeon. Who amongst us would disagree with this? But if you wait for the other side to make the first move, you will die waiting. It is men who initiate, lead, and woo, not the other way around.
If our community were a ship, the IR disparity could be depicted as a ship that is badly listing on one side. It is a dramatic sight of trouble that basically says “there is a big problem here”. There are some structural problems that’s causing this. The question is: are we going to flee this ship like rats or are we going to address the problems and attempt to right this ship?
Currently, there are two schools of thought amongst AA men on how to deal with The Issue moving forward. There are those who advocate vergeltunglieben. If you can’t beat them, join them. Then there are those who advocate community-building and bridging the divide.
I used to be of the former camp. Long story short, I came to realize that this was not the right choice for me. I am freighted with too much baggage. I do not wish to inflict this baggage on some unsuspecting woman for whom all of this is probably alien to her own experience anyway. The poison fruit of the IR disparity would poison my own IR relationship. Not to mention the fact that doing so for the sake of oneupmanship is ethically questionable and a repetition of the same folly that the women are doing. Those of you who find yourselves in this group may want to consider this. If you are relatively damage free and can pursue an IR relationship for all the right and healthy reasons that it deserves…Godspeed. Blessed are those with the innocence of a child and protected from the knowledge of good and evil.
For those who choose to remain and help right our ship…well, lets roll up our sleeves and get cracking. The same baggage that would be a liability in the former scenario is now a driving motivation. We know what is the right thing to do. Do we have the will, the imagination, and the character to put aside our pride and ego to embark on a restoration project that is long overdue?
@ Kobu: I’ll help! =D I’m not that strong and I kinda have puny arms, but what can I do?!
im obviously quite a young guy in comparison with the rest of y’all. my decision to racially expand my social circle of friends and dating options is not really out of revenge. it’s to avoid the holier than thou attitude and self inferiority issues that are present in such a large # of AF’s.
it’s not motivated by revenge, but to avoid a “defective” product. at this point, because my social circle is racially diverse and i’m seeing a WF; i am happier than i was hanging out with an all asian crowd and competing with the AM ass kissers trying to hook up with the very limited # of AFs remaining in social circles or AZN events.
I got some bad news for you, Kobukson. It won’t work because what ultimately happens is that AMs will acknowledge their faults but when it comes time for AF to acknowledge their infractions; they’ll disappear, rationalize, or point out that their faults actually stem from your problems.
For example, take this exchange, if you will.
“Asian guys need to be more aggressive.” “Yes, the reason why so many Asian women date out is because Asian men never ask them out.”
Eventually, 2 hours into the “discussion,” you’ll admit that it’s all your fault while they give up nothing. I mean, take a look at one of TZ’s statements thus far. She already dismisses one of the main points (AFs who date or marry WM are not emasculating AMs! AMs emasculate themselves by believing it emasculates them.) being preached.
Trust me, just save yourself some time and pick up a second hobby. At least that’ll be productive.
The funny thing is this; I’ve had this discussion several times with Meg, her friends, and even non-Asian women in the past. All of them, I repeat, all of them understand why AMs are angry. I think it’s because they generally succumb to logic and are acting as a third party. I honestly believe that AFs truly do understand; they just 1.) Don’t want to admit they’re causing harm or 2.) just apathetic to anyone’s needs aside from their own.
My own parents always said that the one trait passed down through the generations when it comes to Asians is that they’re extremely selfish and exploitative.
“My own parents always said that the one trait passed down through the generations when it comes to Asians is that they’re extremely selfish and exploitative.”
Yeah, but that’s pretty everybody, Urb4n.
One of the main problems when discussing IR is that people forget that just about everyone acts, first, based on self interest, and only THEN do they act based upon a larger group interest.
@ Urban:
You’ve had some less than ideal encounters with APA females, and at this point, there isn’t much any of us can do to ameliorate that. You’ve found a woman who does seem to “get” you and despite how you somewhat objectify her at times in your posts, I interpret the relationship as sincere and loving. I’m glad that in your own way, you’ve made peace with The Issue.
What’s more, you’ve had less than ideal encounters with APAs generally, and that has materially affected your outlook on the community. (Hence you say stuff like “My own parents always said that the one trait passed down through the generations when it comes to Asians is that they’re extremely selfish and exploitative” not just once but TWICE now.) Seen through a particular lens, you might be construed as a racist, though I empathize (whether you believe it or not) with how and why you developed that racism.
“AFs who date or marry WM are not emasculating AMs! AMs emasculate themselves by believing it emasculates them.”
Gosh, no. Let me try this:
Many of the folks here are declaring as follows:
A —–> X
A = 40% of AFs date/marry WMs
X = The emasculation of AMs
All I’m saying is the above equation (Is this an equation? Not so good at math. Sorry. Kobu please help?) is incomplete, misrepresented, and therefore flawed.
Rather, it’s something more like the following, though I’m the first to acknowledge this “equation” (whatever it is) will be problematic because I suck at this kind of stuff:
WMD —–> AMISP —–> X + (WMD —–> AFI) + SD —–> A X situation.
Wait, that’s not my post…. yo, dude, BWW hates me. It’s been screwing with all my comments today. B, is it fixable? Or did I lose my train of thought for good?
J, hope you sorted your car out by now. I agree, no amount of free donuts /coffee are worth the revisit
Back on topic: IMO the reality is like Kobukson said, women will only respect men when the men have self-respect. And the only way men will get the self-respect is being true to themselves and working hard for it. In order to do that, you gotta give up the day job to be some kind of artist or at least make your day job your way of expressing asian empowerment. And that’s being good at what you do, creatively, with humanitarian purpose and not selfish fulfillment.
We are all spokespeople in all that we do and choices we make, but its up to the men to take responsibility in ways other than just earning huge salaries ( ‘mature’ achievement) or adopt ghetto self-expression ( ‘immature’ achievement) which does little to express individuality.
As for choosing AA women, i still think it’s a personal preference who you end up dating/marrying.
Just because you are in an interacial relationship doesnt make you a traitor. Just like being married to an AAwoman doesnt make you some asian crusader.
As for the white-man fetish that began amongst Asian women since the history of footbinding and continued ever since… its just something that AA men will have to accept and a certain truth that only we can know…until we earn the social respect we deserve.
If AA women are like ‘ i can date who i want’ and everyone else can think that we are whining needlessly… then so be it. Just means more work has to be done but its not impossible.
If your influence as a spokesperson by natural way of being great at what you do, – whether racing cars, being a good boss, a good father, artist, preferably not something ‘geeky’ or ‘girly’ then , if you are distinctive , then ALL women will recognise that.
And if all women recognise it, AA women will too. Because all women want security in strength. Whatever they perceive ‘strength’ as .
Just takes hard work and a bit of sacrifice to polish that diamond, just like anything else worth doing, does.
In response to the idea whether Obama was married to a white woman make any difference to whether people respected him or not. Ultimately, I don’t think it would. It may make people question his ‘loyalty’ to the black people. In reality, people project onto him whatever they want. What he eventually chooses to do with his power , however, is another matter. He’s the president, after all.
Also , i read on another forum – whether East Asian men need to be more ‘Alpha-male’ or not. Well if doing something non-alpha brings respect, then great.
In a time where its acceptable for men to be more feminine, Ironically, thanks to the perpetuated media stereotypes , thats not great for AA men…so unless ‘the world’ changes its rules for AAmen as well, MY natural choice is to choose the alpha way.. but each to their own.
My original point: Humanitarian purpose. Not selfish fulfillment. What you give is what you get. Asian men should be beacons of openmindedness , creativity and big-heartedness, not spindling selfish freaks of ‘whats in it for me’. No-one became a leader by following the masses…but by being natural leaders in society, how can any AA women say no? Takes true sincerity devotion and 100% dedication and commitment. Challenging, but not impossible.
I understand the anger from the guys, I understand AF’s wanting the freedom to make their own choices. But I remain pessimistic about solutions. First, I never thought there was much solidarity among the AA community to begin with let alone a community. I’m a bit older than most of you folks here and there certainly wasn’t any kind of AZN pride stuff occurring when I went to school. I’m not even sure that anyone would join up with any of that in my day.
Second, we’re dealing with the effects of being a minority group assimilating or acculturated into the larger predominant white culture. That, coupled with the lack of a real community united in anything, has led to an estrangement, in my opinion from each other. Too many years of being brain washed to think “white”. We can’t even find each other attractive because we’ve been socialized to see the western values of what’s considered beautiful. I mean, jesus, that AA couple on the blind date I cited is an example of this. The guy says, “I’ve only really dated white girls” and the girl says that he’s okay looking “for an Asian guy.” I mean, what the fuck is wrong with those two? They just met—why are they tearing each other down automatically? Why the disconnect?
Third, I’m wondering how many AM’s and AF’s are completely oblivious to this kind of stuff—and perhaps, even worse, don’t really care? You know, just how many people really give a rat’s ass about the perceived hypocrisy? Or even the IR disparity? Are we just a small circle of AA’s who ruminate about this while the rest don’t even register any interest on the radar screen? My best buddy from college is like me; we both grew up in the same area (him in a little more affluent area with better schools and more Asians, while I was more working middle class with more red necky types). For the most part, he is/was oblivious to a lot of social concerns affecting AA’s. It’s only when I bring it up in conversation does he see what I’m getting at, but for the most part, he isn’t so conscious about any of this stuff. So just how big a problem is this?
Whatever the answers or realities are, I remain rather dour about any sort of “solution”. I’ve dates some AF’s briefly but didn’t find them all that attractive personality wise or physically. I’m sure they might have thought the same about me. And while I don’t like the idea that I don’t have a shot with the AF’s that I am physically attracted to because they’re already going out with white guys, I don’t really know that for sure. And you’ll never know until you try. in the end it’s about compatibility, and sometimes racial preference takes a back seat.
The only solution I have exists only for how I choose to live my life and how I find happiness. I don’t foresee some sort of collective “solution” to resolve any of what’s been discussed here. I don’t mean to be a kill-joy or anything, and I know I’m coming off as a lone wolf, but I’m not walking in anyone else’s shoes and they’re not walking in mine. The path I take can only be walked by me because it’s my life and my obstacles to overcome. Everyone’s circumstances are different, so I try not to judge too harshly (it doesn’t mean some shit doesn’t piss me off at times, though).
King has a point. You speaks the truth so I cannot disagree with you one bit.
I also want to acknowledge Urb4n’s point that Asian women will NEVER EVER partake in the same kind of internal reflection that Asian men such as Kobukson, myself and countless others have undertaken. But why not?
Well I’m going to beg the question. From a purely egocentric perspective, why would Asian women want to stop being placed on a pedestal? Being an Asian woman has become elevated to semi-celebrity status here in America. They like the attention, just not all of the negative attention that comes along with it. Its analogous to having a fixed up rice rocket. People may admire your ride, but there will always be some who want your car just for the rims and yes, I’m insinuating something sexual here.
In addition, Asian argue that they have done nothing wrong because “attraction isn’t a choice”. Fine, maybe I’ll give that one to you, but I guess you can’t call me an asshole and blame me for not being attracted to a fat girl since “attraction isn’t a choice.” If you’re overweight at least you have the option of dieting and exercising your way to a healthy figure.
And last but not least, let’s not forget my favorite point of Urb4n’s. How Asian women always rely on tiresome excuses as to why they date white guys? Besides,
“Asian guys need to be more aggressive.”
“Yes, the reason why so many Asian women date out is because Asian men never ask them out.”
I’ll append to this list with some other ones I’ve heard repeatedly in my lifetime,
“Asian men just lack confidence.”
“I feel like I’m dating my brother or family member.” (This one is the absolute worst and makes no goddamn sense.)
Newsflash fellas, but being confident and assertive comes with experience. So if we can agree that,
Experience = Successes + Failures
then I firmly believe the only way to break this cycle is to do what the PUAs have been advocating all along – Picking up, sleeping around, and spreading your damn seed until you’re ready to settle down with a woman who is actually worth your while.
There is no point in arguing anymore. We will never win. We either start dating outside of our ethnic circle or we stick to the Asian women who support Asian men such as SomeKoreanChick
Fuck the rest. This is my Steve Slater moment and I am tired of my Asian brothers getting shit on.
Well, what I’m saying, MaSir, is that (like it or not) most people, if given all of the advantages, perquisites, acceptance, access, legitimacy, and the overall bona fide blessings of the White majority, they would GLADLY take it—and no questions asked.
Now, of course, those who are left behind by such individuals, will sorely complain. What sell outs! What traitors! How whitewashed! That’s easy to say, when you’re not the one being offered carrot. If nobody is trying to let you into the Great White Tent, then of course, you resent those who are let in. But some of the very same people (if given the opportunity) would gladly trade in their ethnic pride hobby horse, if only they were given the chance themselves to enter into milky White Nirvana.
And here’s how you tell the difference:, True believers reject the entire tent concept. They don’t even want in, because they see through it. They aren’t obsessed with the Tent, and neither are they angry at those who are gathered within. Rather, they shrug their shoulders, and feel genuinely sorry for the fools who enter in under some juvenile delusion of ascending to some new plane of existence.
However, the wannabe Tent crashers exude their own brand of prejudice and intolerance, just directed at other, less obvious victims. The “ugly” the “stupid” the “weak” the “politically impure” become their targets of opportunity. And by rejecting, belittling, and accusing these, they show themselves to be singularly deserving of the same treatment that they themselves receive from keepers of the Tent.
Ahhhh King.
If it were only so easy to be the true believer that you speak of so effortlessly. Not everyone can simply “shrug their shoulders” when they see their comrades collecting rejection after rejection from those akin to their own.
We were born with sin in our souls but not sadness.
But MaSir, it’s not a question of being, it’s a question of seeing.
Once you understand yourself to be as capable of the same failings that you see in AFs, then you begin to lose the ego of “I and they.” You realize that fortune and circumstance make heroes and villains of us all.
Most of has haven’t sold out only because nobody is buying.
Drop the self-righteousness and you can judge others with as much forgiveness as you judge yourself.
Ok I’m attempting to continue my earlier post, which got all busted up due to some mysterious technical malfunction.
===
Rather, it’s something more like the following, though I’m the first to acknowledge this “equation” (whatever it is) will be problematic because I suck at this kind of stuff:
WMD —–> AMISP —–> X + (WMD —–> AFI) + SD —–> A <—– BEXP
WMD = White male dominance
AMISP = Asian males thrust into subordinate positions by the media, the corporate environment, mainstream society, etc.
X = The emasculation of AMs
AFI = Asian females’ sense of inferiority
SD = Social Darwinism and female desire to mate with the alpha dog and notion that the white male is the alpha dog
A = 40% of AFs date/marry WMs
BEXP = Bad experiences that somehow justify in their minds that WMD is okay because those bad experiences have developed in them racism and prejudice toward their own community. BEXP validates to them why A is not so bad.
Sigh. Please ignore. It messed up my “equations” again. @#$^^&**(
To all the asian brothers out there who got no game (aka real substance), your opinion counts for jack shit. You’re embarassing us. Shut up, go improve yourself from within before joining the discussion. The movement is not a democracy, its direction should directed by the best and brightest.
My favorite part about Asian culture is where everybody isn’t running their mouths constantly about nothing. There is thought and calculated wisdom before something is said, and you don’t say anything at all if you don’t understand the bigger picture. If you don’t know anything about the subject at hand besides your own miserable experiences then please take a step back.
Notice how some Asian guys “get it”? In life, with girls, in career? Yes some guys are naturals, but most get there with hard work (but you already knew that from your parents). I hate to objectify women (actually i love to HA) but what appeals to women is universal, no matter what color they are! The genius thing about these universal appeals are that they are more often than not good for you as a man regardless of whether women are involved or not. Leadership, health, money, being the best at something… these things are universal. Not every guy can be like me, but every guy can be a better man. If not for the women, at least for himself.
Danger with these kind of threads is it can end up being a personal ‘ my issues with women’ forum rather than staying objective, which is quite tough because of the requirements of personal experience to speak out in the first place. Replace the race with any other and it just ends up a male bitching forum. But main thing we can be grateful for is that we have this great place for open debate, and hopefully learning from each other how to improve ourselves. Thanks, J.
I’m an AF married to an AM with a 2-year-old son. Jaehwan, you will probably remember me from Fighting 44s, but I prefer to use a different name now
I’m not here to debate whether AMs are justified in their anger towards the IR disparity. The disparity is out there, and for AMs (and AFs) who are sick of it, perhaps you should change your surroundings and/or circle of friends, so you’re not exposed to it so much.
I went to a predominantly-white high school where all the minorities–male and female–dated White. I was also approached by WMs, and I actually dated one, but realized that I wasn’t into the kool-aid.
But as much as I preferred to date an AA guy, or a minority guy for that reason, they preferred the average-looking White folks over my foine Asian ass
Early on, I knew I had to go outside of my school to find remotely dateable AA guys. So I did…My first kiss was from a Filipino-American guy, my prom date was a Vietnamese guy, etc., all from nearby high schools.
I hung out with a handful of AFs in high school, but like I said, they were all into WMs, so I tried to be a good friend and support their White crushes. But the support wasn’t mutual when I would talk about some AM I liked. There were no, \OMG, he’s soooo cute!\ or \You guys look so cute together!\ And for many other reasons, I realized that we weren’t as good friends as I thought, and being the way that it is in high school, we all eventually drifted apart.
All throughout college and 20s, I continued to explore my identity as an AF and dated around (mostly AMs), until I found my future husband, and the rest is history. But during this time, I met AMs and AFs who clearly did not want to date anyone Asian. Early on, I realized that I didn’t want to expose myself to people I wasn’t compatible with (though it wasn’t all about dating), so I chose friends who led a similar lifestyle as me. It was hard–I had to let go of old, childhood friends who I felt were just toxic to my well-being, but I was lucky to find people who eventually filled the void they left behind.
Because of my demographic (AA who are new parents), most of my friends now are AA couples with babies/toddlers, but I also have friends from a variety of status(es), but they mostly prefer to date their own race. We do have an oddball friend who happens to be dating outside his/her race, but regardless of their motives, it’s off-setted by the majority of loving AA couples around me.
At work, I do see a lot of people in IRs, but I don’t know them enough to be able to judge the motivations behind their choice, not that I do or need to know why. And I do gravitate towards my demographic, though I’m friends with a few coworkers from all walks of life, so it’s not an issue for me. But again, outside of work, I have a circle of family and friends that reinforce a lot of things I value. But regardless, my presence as a fairly decent-looking AF with a likewise good-looking AM husband helps balance whatever mindset that people at work have regarding the dating preferences of AFs and AMs.
I do think that it’s toxic for AMs to live in a society where there aren’t many positive examples of people like them. It’s toxic for AFs to live in a society where men fetishize them. Despite the societal forces that make it hard to be an AM/AF, you can still create your own piece of reality where you feel safe and valued, even if it’s within immediate friends and family. It just takes time to create that environment.
@AF/AM couple,
One of the best posts so far. That is what I call community through unity.
nice post, AF/AM Couple. I’ve often said, “don’t waste your time on people who wouldn’t waste their time on you.” You make a great point and articulated something that I didn’t quite get to: change your social circumstances by changing the people you choose to be around. Why would you want to be around AF’s who would say stuff like, “he’s okay looking—for an Asian guy”? Or if you’re an AF, be around AM’s who wouldn’t give you the time of day?
Despite this estrangement from one another, there’s hope in finding those who will bother to waste their time on you. Thanks for your perspective.
good post “AF/AM couple”, a rare instance of an AF who backs up her words with her actions. it’s too bad women like you are less than 20% of the AF population
TZ:
A —–> X
A = 40% of AFs date/marry WMs
X = The emasculation of AMs
All I’m saying is the above equation (Is this an equation? Not so good at math. Sorry. Kobu please help?) is incomplete, misrepresented, and therefore flawed.
Looks fine to me. I believe it’s called a “proposition”, A implies X.
Rather, it’s something more like the following, though I’m the first to acknowledge this “equation” (whatever it is) will be problematic because I suck at this kind of stuff:
WMD —–> AMISP —–> X + (WMD —–> AFI) + SD —–> A <—– BEXP
WMD = White male dominance
AMISP = Asian males thrust into subordinate positions by the media, the corporate environment, mainstream society, etc.
X = The emasculation of AMs
AFI = Asian females’ sense of inferiority
SD = Social Darwinism and female desire to mate with the alpha dog and notion that the white male is the alpha dog
A = 40% of AFs date/marry WMs
BEXP = Bad experiences that somehow justify in their minds that WMD is okay because those bad experiences have developed in them racism and prejudice toward their own community. BEXP validates to them why A is not so bad.
Not bad.
How about this?
A + S = H
A = Righteous Asian Babe
S= can parse The Issue using symbolic logic
H = HOT
@asianguy: Again, it’s all about your reality. To you, my POV is similar to 20% of the AF population, but for me, it’s more like 85%.
For a while, I was really militant in terms of IRs, but I became more ambivalent as I got older and became a married woman, and now, a new parent. Just to clarify, by saying “ambivalent,” I’m still acknowledging that AMs & AFs are still affected by systematic racism.
IMO, as an AF, becoming married and having a baby changes the way people look at me. In a way, most, if not all, guys think I’m off the market, and perhaps that changes how people perceive my approachability.
I still live in the same city where I grew up, so from time to time, I would run into guys I knew in the past who are all pretty much in the same boat as me, i.e. married with kids. We immediately talk about our kids, but eventually, we’d talk about the past, and for the most part, they would reveal that back in high school or college, they used to have a crush on me, or they thought I was cute back then. And I’m always surprised by this revelation because based on what I remember, these people completely ignored me. I mean, they were chasing/fawning over/going out with WFs back in the day…why didn’t they approach me?
The more I learn about them now (i.e. married with kids, spouses are AFs or non-AFs), it occurs to me that they, just like every awkward person in their high school and college years, were going through a journey, just like I did. And their lives, just like mine, are filled with stumbling and regrets, and giving off the wrong vibe/impression, until ultimately, they’re on a path of self-actualization, and they become more consistent (and hopefully positive) in how they lead their lifestyle.
So in the end, the perceived rejection I felt as an AF back then wasn’t really about me personally, or being Asian at all, it was really all about this guy who was just trying to maneuver through life and trying to establish his identity. I’m lucky that I didn’t let it get to me, and pursued my own path.
With AMs and AFs that I run into from the past, it’s about 50/50 that I’m amazed at how they turned out with their choice of partners. Of course, I only know how they were when they were younger, and how they are now, but not in between. So it leads me to believe that at least in my generation, we were conditioned to think a certain way about ourselves and the opposite sex when we were younger, and then something happens on our path to growing up that either reinforces that or compels people to find their own path.
I know it sounds generic, but to put a blanket statement on AMs and/or AFs only accounts a specific point and time in their lives (i.e. at the time they happen to be going out with a non-Asian). I’m more forgiving with the younger generation because they still have a lot of growing up to do.
But I am hopeful for the next generation, based on what I’ve seen. I have a lot of cousins in high school and college, and I’m amazed at how many Asian friends they have. Some of my cousins don’t even have White friends at all! And some of my cousins are half-White! I’m not against White people, but I’m happy that my cousins have found an environment where they’re not defined by White standards. They have Asian friends, go out with other AMs/AFs, and are pretty much absorbed in everything Asian. When I was their age, only FOBs listened to music from Asia, but my cousins fawn over Japanese and Korean bands, as well as rap music. It also wasn’t cool when I was younger to wear clothes that said “Filipino/Korean/Vietnamese pride,” but that’s part of my cousins’ wardrobe. I wish I had that growing up.
I just stumbled on this site, and… wow, that’s uncanny. I literally just wrote a post about this myself last week.
The problem I have with the whole Asian female/non-Asian male thing isn’t so much the preference that Asian females have for non-Asian males. I think everyone agrees that the pattern is there. The surveys show it:
A recent study by the Pew Research Center reveals that 39.5% of Asian-American women marry outside of their race, while only 19.5% of Asian-American men marry outside their race. If you think about these stats, that means that 1 out of every 5 Asian American males is effectively left with… no one.
Anyway, the problem I have is how open–and, dare I say, proud–some Asian women are in announcing that they’ll only date white guys. Here in San Diego, I’ve made acquaintances with quite a few Asian women who shamelessly and nonchalantly announce that they’re not attracted to Asian guys. Now, whether or not *I* had any interest in them, just the fact that they made these statements in front of me felt like a slap in the face.
I actually went on Match.com and collected some data on the dating preferences of Asian women in San Diego. Yup, it pretty much verified my suspicions. A seemingly disparate proportion of Asian woman openly refuse to date Asian men.
Anyway, in case anyone’s curious, here’s my post:
http://musingsonlifeandlove.com/2010/08/09/i-date-outside-my-race-because-my-race-wont-date-me/
So, this is what I wonder….
Why is it acceptable for Asian women to openly state that they aren’t attracted to Asian men? Isn’t that kind of messed up? Yet, few people seem to have a problem with it.
Urban, I respect you because you are a über-realist. You value clarity over muddled thinking.
I respect that. I’ll try my best.
I got some bad news for you, Kobukson. It won’t work because what ultimately happens is that AMs will acknowledge their faults but when it comes time for AF to acknowledge their infractions; they’ll disappear, rationalize, or point out that their faults actually stem from your problems.
I’ve got some bad news also. But I’ve also got good news.
The psychology of motivations behind the disparity (which we estimate ~40 – 50%) is ultimately a black box to us. The worst case scenario is that all of them are brainwashed, wearing an invisible “WHITES ONLY” sign, hopelessly beyond redemption. The best case scenario is that Asian men enjoy an equal or more probability of success with the disparity set but the vagaries of fate and circumstance determined that they ended up with white guys. The truth is somewhere in the middle. It always is.
But consider this. If the women of the disparity set are there due to all the worst assumptions that we can think of (which is the fundamental premise behind the bitter) then by golly it ain’t our fault. That’s the good news. The bad news is that the reasons are then due to external factors that are beyond our control. We have minimal impact, in our individual everyday lives basis, on white male hegemony itself because that’s a slow-motion revolution and not all of us are full-time activists.
However,
if half or even the majority of the women of the disparity are there because of something lacking with Asian men, then yeah, we would have to eat our words and blame ourselves. That’s the bad news. The good news, however, about it being all our fault is that we can do something about it. Fixing our own deficiencies is a lot easier than overturning white male hegemony. One of these can happen overnight. The other will take about a hundred years or more.
I don’t know about anyone else but I don’t exactly have a hundred years. We can either have our pride and ego intact OR we can start reclaiming what we so easily gave up. This is the choice. Which is it going to be? One thing I know for sure is that you can’t make love to your own pride and ego.
Ultimately, it matters little what the true motivations are. What matters is our response to the disparity. It is going to be unconditional love or conditional hate? Unconditional love meaning for ALL women regardless of who, what, when, why, and how. I used to think also that unconditional love was for weak chumps also. That I’d get taken advantage of and stepped all over. It’s not. It takes enormous strength to face someone who’ve hurt you badly and say “I still love you”. Now, I know what you’re thinking. Such unproductive, naive, air-headed warm fuzzies! Now, it may turn out, the world often being what it is, which is a cold mean-hearted bitch, that is would be like saying “I love you” to a wall of indifference that may not care or even know what the hell you’re talking about in the first place. Nothing’s ever guaranteed. But it could work also. But what I AM certain of is that conditional hate is guaranteed to result in failure. Like Gimli said in the Fellowship of the Rings: Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for? Call it, if you will, the Pascal’s Wager of the Issue.
For example, take this exchange, if you will.
“Asian guys need to be more aggressive.” “Yes, the reason why so many Asian women date out is because Asian men never ask them out.”
Eventually, 2 hours into the “discussion,” you’ll admit that it’s all your fault while they give up nothing. I mean, take a look at one of TZ’s statements thus far. She already dismisses one of the main points (AFs who date or marry WM are not emasculating AMs! AMs emasculate themselves by believing it emasculates them.) being preached.
Trust me, just save yourself some time and pick up a second hobby. At least that’ll be productive.
The funny thing is this; I’ve had this discussion several times with Meg, her friends, and even non-Asian women in the past. All of them, I repeat, all of them understand why AMs are angry. I think it’s because they generally succumb to logic and are acting as a third party. I honestly believe that AFs truly do understand; they just 1.) Don’t want to admit they’re causing harm or 2.) just apathetic to anyone’s needs aside from their own.
The most important thing is not that I get to constantly hear what salvages my fragile ego and makes me feel better about myself but the truth.
Asian women are saying that Asian men need to step up to the plate. We’re not asking them out. We’re not even glancing their way with a wink.
Bullshit, you say.
Look here. I’ve also dabbled in IR relationships also. LOTS of them. Guess what non-Asian women are also constantly saying of Asian men? Non-Asian women are saying that Asian men need to step up to the plate. We’re not asking them out. We’re not even glancing their way with a wink.
If Confucius during 400BC is saying the same thing as Jesus at 30AD as women at 2010AD, then it must be the truth.
If you’re an Asian guy who sees 40% of Asian women outmarrying, does that seem like emasculation to you? Yeah, I’d say so. But if you are an Asian girl and 98% of Asian guys are not smiling at you and asking you out, what shall we call that? Herein lies the OTHER side of the disparity. These are two sides of the same coin.
@Dennis Hong,
Yes, it is most certainly messed up and more than just a slap in the face. Its fucked up because these women are indirectly denigrating our natural born ethnic person, and often times misusing our hospitality. As I stated earlier in one of my previous comments here, women can at least adjust their weight through exercise and a healthy diet. What do these white-worshipping females expect Asian men to do?
So the next time an Asian female professes her love for white cock in front of your face, muster up the courage and defend yourself. Call the bitch out. I’ve even asked a girl, “What the fuck is that supposed to mean?” or some backhanded mirroring. “That’s cool, ’cause I only like good-looking women.” And yes…then they stop to consider how offensively asinine such a statement is.
It is an attack not only against you, but also the rest of your Asian brethren. White worshipping Asian women make such statements nonchalantly simply because we let them by showing no qualms about it. I’ve been guilty of this myself for the longest time, because I was raised to be non-confrontational. If we want to make a difference, if want things to change, then we need to announce our distaste over the status quo while we take simultaneous action. Even if you hesitate for a minute and the moment passes for a response, get it out there regardless. Make it a habit!
There’s no more time in the AA community to tolerate Asian women who are embarrassed and hateful toward Asian men. It may force critical examination within which will push us to improve our game, but it doesn’t add anything positive to the community. These Asian women are a virus to the AA community whose sole intent is to divide us, not unite us. They should be blacklisted and ostracized.
Like NaS said, “Theres no more room for jealousy, we destroying and rebuilding. That means the cowards get out and the real niggas stay.”
I was residing in San Diego for quite some time so I’m fully aware of the “I love white man’s cock” syndrome that runs rampant there, but its not exclusive to San Diego Dennis.
@ Dennis Hong again,
To answer your question more succinctly. The reason why people don’t have a problem with it is because Asian men don’t. Sure they talk about it online but that doesn’t have much of an impact as voicing oneself in person. No blogs, no forums, no social media sites, no dating sites. Rejecting the notion in person, in public.
@MaSir:
Thanks, you make a good point. For me, I guess it’s never been about being non-confrontational. The way I see it, if they’re not attracted to Asian dudes, well… there’s not much I can do about it. So, instead of confronting them (“damn it, you should date Asian men”), I fight fire with fire and date non-Asian women (“eff you, my non-Asian girlfriend is way hotter than you, anyway”).
But, I do agree. Maybe I *should* start calling them out on it… especially if they’re announcing their preferences in front of me.
I believe you should. In fact we must all condemn such acts of disloyalty, self-hatred and verbal terrorism. Whenever an Asian woman publicly denounces and rejects all Asian men as a potential candidate, it’s like she is setting off a bomb. If we continue to allow it in public others will continue to let this absurdity thrive.
I never slink away if some AF in a bar, at party, or a bbq, said some crap like “Oh, I don’t date Asian guys” as some sort of pre-emptive gesture to ward me off. My first reaction would be to say something like, “Wow, you got a huge ego to think I’d even want to date someone with such self-hatred.”
You’re right in one sense, Dennis, that if they’re not into you, they’re just not into you. But that doesn’t mean you have to take a pile of shit from them.
MaSir is correct—people don’t see it as a problem just openly insulting AM’s because if nothing is ever done about it by AM’s, then they assume it’s okay to show open contempt. Only by confronting this will it help change the dynamics of what is acceptable public behavior. Just look how other minority groups have sought to show that certain terms aren’t acceptable anymore, like the n-word. Or for gays, the word f@ggot. in a way, you have to educate the pig ignorant masses that it’s NOT okay to insult AM’s with that kind of crap. and maybe some of these sad and pathetic AF’s will get it in their heads to keep their thoughts and mouths shut about their contempt for AM’s.
Holy SHIT. I went away for two days and this discussion exploded. And with a lot of meaningful contributions from new people, too! And only an occasional chest pounding from some lame PUA (yes, you know who you are, and this is how much you impress me). I think this is a milestone.
Jaewhan, as usual, covered much of what I was going to say on the topic of AA women activists. If I may elaborate a bit further, I think most of us agree here that it’s good for AA girls and boys to communicate with each other more. It’s even better if they start being attracted to each other and, you know, start dating and building strong families which are the foundation of any strong community (yes, I know that sounds a bit racist, but you know it’s true). We can’t control the white media. We can’t control white men and their racist/sexist fetishes. But we CAN control us, and that means we can show to our younger generation the solidarity we hope to see from them. That is why it is critically important for our more vocal (and visible) members to demonstrate this solidarity in their every day lives. Leaders must lead through example, not just words.
TZ, before you jump out of your chair, let me reassure you that I DO appreciate the work that AA women in IR have contributed to this community. I never dismissed them or considered them traitors. But when you follow a popular trend instead of going against it, it seriously weakens the message you’re trying to convey. It isn’t just me. I know far too many white men who never have to question their own sexist/racist mindsets because their Asian girlfriends/wives give them the excuse. When Asian women complain about being objectified, white men just take one look at their white boyfriends/husbands, then shrug and dismiss it with the smug knowledge that there’s no bite behind the words. They never have to question their ways because their status is not being threatened.
This is why I think it’s time to fight the trend and start looking for other leaders who can talk AND demonstrate solidarity. We’re just too small of a demographic to afford to be so disparate. These women DO exist, and we need to lend them all the support we can. TZ, AF / AM couple, you two make far more impact through your support of AA men than those two bloggers with their white boyfriends/husbands. Mama nabi, even though you disagree with me, your “vote” for AA men have done more for us than your words in the past. It’s stupid and unfair and sexist, but that’s what the reality is. There’s the ideal, and then there’s reality. Maybe some day, our children will live the ideal, but right now we must make the necessary sacrifice in order to make that a reality.
“It’s just like when you’ve got some coffee that’s too black, which means it’s too strong. What do you do? You integrate it with cream, you make it weak. But if you pour too much cream in it, you won’t even know you ever had coffee. It used to be hot, it becomes cool. It used to be strong, it becomes weak. It used to wake you up, now it puts you to sleep.” – Malcom X
@MojoRider:
I totally get what you’re saying. The weird thing, though, is that I can tell these girls aren’t trying to give me shit or deter me from hitting on them. They just say it ever-so-nonchalantly in passing conversation. It’s just so subtle that I almost feel like I’d be overreacting if I called them out.
And, no, it has nothing to do with me being passive or not sticking up for myself. Yes, I know how to stick up for my beliefs, and I’ve gotten into pretty heated debates with people before. These instances just seem… well, almost like it’s not worth it.
@ Leon
I’m all for solidarity. But what would your version of the ideal future entail? That AFs are less objectified by the masses of men of all races? Or that AMs become more desirable by the masses of women of all races? Or screw both…AFs and AMs should only be dating each other?
I see alot of back and forth in this thread, and pointing fingers and such. So I ask you this: what is the ideal solution?
@Dennis
Oh, you again
.
@ Leon
I realized after hitting post how semi-combative my tone was in my questions. But I am genuinely interested in everyone’s opinion, and I meant no sarcasm by it. What do you suggest is the appropriate solution for the problems you guys pose?
Ben II- there is not single ideal solution. There are multiple ways to attack this problem that many including me have proposed that must all be applied. I suggest you read over what’s already written.
@ Leon: If you could see it from my point of view– it bothers me, I won’t deny, that any so-called credibility I might enjoy still comes from my choice in husband, rather than the merits I have earned on my own, the work I have contributed through what comes out of that machine between my two ears. How is that any different from the woman who believes she will gain greater status if she marries a rich white man? Please tell me I am misinterpreting you and then clarify?
@ Leon
I have read the thread in its entirety. But allow me to rephrase.
If you have a WM who’s a 5 and a AM who’s also a 5, do you really think that the AM is that much more entitled to the AF simply because they have the same skin color?
@ AF/AM couple: You hit on a good point. Building our own communities tailors our experienes, which in turn tailors our outlook on life and mindset. You, for example, have built yourself your community, which creates a positive shelter for you and the child you recently brought into this world. That’s one of the solutions. That’s exactly what a lot of the angrier commenters here could do. I commend you for being one of the first here to actually offer a solution. =)
@ Ben II:
“If you have a WM who’s a 5 and a AM who’s also a 5, do you really think that the AM is that much more entitled to the AF simply because they have the same skin color?”
I have no idea what you mean by that. If for nobody else then at least for my benefit, you may need to rephrase.
crap, internet got cut and ate my response.
but allow me to re-rephrase.
Assuming that we have two men with the same qualifications (same job, lifestyle, sense of humor, looks, education, etc) with the only difference being their skin color (and potentially culture), why is a AF’s decision have to be labeled as racially motivated by the guy she didn’t end up choosing?
Would the AM have been the correct choice, simply because they have the same skin color (not to mention for the sake of community building and solidarity)?
Or are the AM essentially confirming the notion that we are competing with a handicap that is prescribed by a WM dominated society?
Since you ask, Byron, sure, I’ll put in my 2 cents along with TZ and other ladies on your new thread.
Maybe I shouldn’t, but what the hell, here’s a little devil’s advocate for the IR debate:
When an AM engages in IR, are they not also subjecting themselves to similar, (if not the exact same) objectification/fetishization as AF?
Again, just like what a few other posters here have mentioned, you don’t have to put up with the injustice, even if it is pervasive systematic racism against AMs & AFs.
Time and time again when I read posts like these where AMs recall the countless conversations they’ve had with AFs (\I’m just not that into Asian guys, etc.\), I’m thinking, \Why do you put yourself in this position?!\ I’m sure these are frequent occurrences, but again, you don’t have to be a captive audience.
I’m not saying to ignore that this racism exists. We can fight the good fight by becoming a better person in the end and by looking out for one another.
I rarely, if ever, get into any heated discussions with self-hating AFs/AMs, unless I go looking for it. And if I do, and I’m with my friends, they back me up, so it’s not even an issue.
Even when I was single, I gave out a vibe to who I wanted to hang out with, so AF/WM/BM fetishizers didn’t even stand a chance. And if the place was full of creepy non-AA guys trolling for AFs, my friends had my back, and we went somewhere else. Simple as that. If it meant a night of not meeting any cute guys, then it was still fun because of the people I had around me. Or we kept trying until we found a place that clicked.
From me, my AF & AM friends (or any race for that matter) can expect that I will look out for them. I will venture into having awkward conversations with them, if it means that they are a step closer to moving away from some dysfunction.
I’ve had many conversations with my AM friends about why they’re pining over a certain AF who’s clearly into WMs/BMs, and vice versa with AF friends. Oftentimes, it’s very frustrating, and I’m banging my head against the wall, but in putting it out there, it helps them acknowledge that there is a problem, and I’m looking out for their best interest. If in the end, they don’t listen to me, at least they know better, and more importantly, they know that I don’t put up with that kind of drama.
In the same way I expect my friends to tell me if my fly is open or if I have a booger sticking out, I expect friends to tell me if I’m doing something that makes me look like a complete idiot or embarrassment.
Lastly, I think that AMs are actually in a better position to forge their own path and insist on their values because they can use the existing male patriarchy to their advantage than AFs. But that’s in a whole other post.
To the resident PUAs from a former PUA:
If some unreformed twinkie of an Asian girl says to you “I don’t date Asian guys”, that’s a mating challenge. It’s a test. She wants to see if you can rise to the challenge and thus demonstrate your alpha-maleness or if you will fold and limp away. Snarling like a wounded dog and having a little hissy fit is not alpha. An alpha male would be totally unfazed by that comment, grin like it was something amusing a little kid said, and proceed as if he had all the confidence in the world that he could make her eat those words someday. His carnal lust would be enticed by visions of bedding a girl who once uttered the words “I don’t date Asian guys”. He would do role-play and go along with it and humor her. Really? You don’t date Asian guys? Wow, that’s funny because I don’t date Asian guys either…I feel like we’ve made a connection here because we seem to have something in common…let’s discuss it over drinks….”
If you’re an Asian guy and you can pass this particular shit test, you can probably pass any other shit test.
It’s a variation age old Darwinian mechanism hard-wired into the female brain that’s called “playing hard to get”. Masir and Dennis, so far all you guys have proven that you are not fit to pass on your genes.
@kobukson:
You crack me up, dude. It’s not about the pickup. And I have no need to validate myself to you. In any case, you might wanna save your negs for the women… unless there’s something’s about yourself that you’re trying to drag out of the closet here….
@ Dennis: I wanted to say something in support of kobukson’s position, but frankly, I don’t understand your rebuttal at all. Your reply is what folks in my industry might object to for being non-responsive.
By the way, from a girl’s POV, one who has been called many times in her life a stuck up Asian princess, kobukson’s sample response “Really? You don’t date Asian guys? Wow, that’s funny because I don’t date Asian guys either…I feel like we’ve made a connection here because we seem to have something in common…let’s discuss it over drinks….” would have impressed me. The single late-teen, early-20s me would have absolutely taken up the offer. THAT, Dennis, is how you get a girl.
@tz:
Actually, my reply was very responsive. Kobukson referenced pickup artists, and I happen to have read The Game, so I know what he’s talking about.
@Kobukson,
Haha. Ya got me there bro! Good looking out. I give credit where credit is due and I’ll admit your response was quite clever and playful. I would still come back with a cool and calm response.
“Really? That’s great because I don’t date *ugly* women, but we can still be friends.”
You MAY consider it to be a shit test, but I refuse to believe that these white-worshipping Asian women are actually testing my Game. In fact, I know they aren’t. The shit-test implies that you’ve already opened her, established rapport AND are on the critical path to intercourse.
Now these women on the other hand, have the sole intention to make themselves feel as if they’re on top of the fucking world by belittling someone who they know will stay silent – the Asian modus operandi. Hell, my parents even instilled this nonsense in me. “Just ignore them.” “Its not worth it.” “If you get angry, they’ll just continue to do it.” “Avoid confrontation.” And guess happened? I never grew a backbone. Till this day its still a challenge for me to speak up and voice my indignation against something I find disgustingly offensive until its too late and I blow like Mt. Vesuvius.
So Dennis, I disagree with you in merely telling yourself, “Its not worth it to speak up”. You are cheating yourself. I did the same shit and it only spawned a lump of resentment within. The continuation of mute behavior will not only perpetuate the “submissive Asian” stereotype, but also indefinitely trap Asian men in the mental cages that Hollywhite America (and now white-worshipping Asian women) have imprisoned us in unless we unlock them with the master keys of respect.
Ask yourself honestly, “Is it really NOT worth it??” If you can look at yourself in the mirror and say “yes” with 100% sincerity, then there is no need to be commenting on the IR disparity topic period.
Its a negative feedback loop where insiders will follow the behavior of the outsiders and vice versa. The issue won’t be resolved from the outside for obvious reasons, so we have to resolve it from within. We do have women from the Asian community such as AF/AM Couple, TZ, SomeKoreanChick and Ellie from Seoulbeats who support us and can still humor our idiosyncrasies.
To the self-hating Asian females and males, don’t let the door hit you on the way out. We’re destroying and rebuilding.
@Kobukson
You took those words right out of my mouth.
I know this is anecdotal evidence at best, but I’ve never had the hangups that are being mentioned here in these types of threads. I’ve been turned down by AFs who dated EXCLUSIVELY AMs, and I’ve dated AFs who have also dated non-AMs. To me…if I got rejected, it has less to do with my skin-color than it had to do with a conflict of personalities/type. It didn’t mean I was inferior, it meant I was simply rejected. We all get rejected. Even WM get rejected. You either step up your game or move on to the next one. I think it’s a matter of perspective and attitude. By scapegoating all these various reasons as to why the stereotypical AM failed is EXACTLY the reason why we are not the Alpha-Males that our AF sisters seek. I can remember two specific instances in my dating-life where I “out-competed” non-APA men for the affections of a girl, and IMHO, I don’t think the girl chose me simply because I was Asian. I just didn’t feel I had to over-compensate by any means, merely because of some inferiority complex or anything. These guys were taller, and IMO probably better looking than me. These women had dated non-APA men in the past, so my chances were still 50/50. But I prevailed for whatever reasons they may be. So in light of my own experiences, I really don’t believe that the playing field is as uneven as they say it is.
By acknowledging that we are competing with a handicap confirms the notion that we are INDEED handicapped – a notion I have never subscribed to. This doesn’t make me a kool-aid drinking, colorblind PUA – this makes me a confident Alpha Male who goes after what he wants. And should I encounter any failures (which I will), it’s my job to figure out how to succeed.
Scapegoating, going to support-groups for fellow unlucky AMs, and reading self-help books on how to pick up women, IMHO, are NOT exactly traits I’d imagine would be desirable to ANY female, much less to APA ones.
By the way, from a girl’s POV, one who has been called many times in her life a stuck up Asian princess,
Is that so? Well…I’m truly sorry to hear that, your Highness.
kobukson’s sample response “Really? You don’t date Asian guys? Wow, that’s funny because I don’t date Asian guys either…I feel like we’ve made a connection here because we seem to have something in common…let’s discuss it over drinks….” would have impressed me. The single late-teen, early-20s me would have absolutely taken up the offer. THAT, Dennis, is how you get a girl.
Really? It only took me…what? Twenty years to figure things out? Will someone please invent a time machine? While I’m at it, I’d also pay a visit to myself twenty years ago to whack him on the head with a big, heavy cluebat.
@Masir
The shit-test implies that you’ve already opened her, established rapport AND are on the critical path to intercourse.
Funniest thing I read all morning. I needed that, since I’m working here at 7am on a Saturday morning.
As I mentioned earlier, I don’t want to diminish the fact that there IS a disparity. We need to call a spade, a spade. And I’m not going to argue that there ARE AF who date EXCLUSIVELY non-AMs. And in agreeance with you for the most part, I’m not sure if it’s necessarily a shit test as much as it is some sort of condescending, self-hate sort of mentality (for those absolutists). But then there’s a little part of me that also says, “it’s her preference, her choice and prerogative…so why is that wrong?”
For the ones that blatently come out and say it, I don’t think it’s necessarily an opportunity to engage in a war of words (“Well, I don’t date ugly people.”) or some defensive mechanism to cut off the chances of the AM (“I guess I’m not sleeping with you tonight…”). While I do pity their short-sightedness and close-mindedness, I still believe that they are entitled to the choices they make in their personal relationships. If she were to say, “I only date vegans.” or “I only date non-smokers.”, I would feel the same way about them too.
I’m not going to go out there and convert all the women out there to see things my way. A person isn’t “wrong” simply because he/she holds a different opinion from my own.
But this is not to say that if a woman is being outright nasty (“Asian men disgust me”), that we should simply back down. I agree that you have to stand up for your fellow brethren. But if it’s a matter of “I never had any luck with asian men” or “I just have more in common with non-APA men”, then where’s the wrong in that?
@Masir
PS.
But along the veins of what Kobukson has said…when anyone says “no”, including the woman of one’s affections – I’ve always viewed the first “no” as a smoke-screen. As such, I’ve always ignored that “I only date asian guys” line….the first time they say it anyway.
Any subsequent “no’s”, however…followed by a restraining order…then it may be time to accept the fact that her words may have some ounce of truth to it
.
@MaSir:
I totally get what you’re saying. I just find it more satisfying to respond to their “challenge” by finding myself a non-Asian woman who *doesn’t* need to be convinced that she needs to date me. If their notion is that Asian men are somehow “below” them, then I prove them wrong by demonstrating that I can get someone who’s not Asian, not superficial, and hotter than they are, anyway. Hence, the reason for the post I wrote on my blog.
I just don’t see the point of confrontation, since, as others have observed, you can’t *argue* someone into dating a certain type. Now, if an Asian women says that to me clearly as a way to antagonize… absolutely, I will stick up for myself. But, if they’re just saying it in passing… meh. I can “retaliate” through other means.
-Dennis
“You MAY consider it to be a shit test, but I refuse to believe that these white-worshipping Asian women are actually testing my Game. In fact, I know they aren’t. The shit-test implies that you’ve already opened her, established rapport AND are on the critical path to intercourse.”
The problem MaSir, is that people don’t always know that they’re “testing your game.” Women often do genuinely feel that they like only a certain type… until another type comes along and proves them wrong (and vice versa with men).
There’s something that I refer to as “Across the room appeal.” It’s the impression that someone gets about you from across a crowded room. They don’t really know you, so they can only judge based on broader generalizations. Now, of course, you can affect even this judgement to a degree, by the way you stand, and the clothes you wear, and your haircut, and who you’re standing with, but there are also a lot of assumptions that are made about you that fall outside of your control. These assumptions cannot be either corrected or confirmed until you engage the assumer. This is what Kobukson is talking about.
As a Black guy, there are certain assumptions that are made about me from across a room. I know this. But once I engage the assumer, if I am successfully witty, and charming, and intelligent, and warm, then I move beyond assumptions into the realm of knowing and being known. I often change that opinion from across the room, once I am engaged in closer quarters. That’s what Kobukson is doing with his example, he’s just taking himself beyond the caricature by challenging her “preferences.”
He’s worth a second look, because he’s not put off, he’s not angry, he’s not like a little child, trying to “get even.” He’s confident, he’s funny and he’s a challenge.
@Ben,
I’m glad I could make you chuckle. Yeah, I’ve had Asian girls reject me for other Asian guys like Daniel Henney. I can accept such a loss.
@Dennis,
Your approach is commendable and I think that its definitely a way to “get even”. But this isn’t about me wanting to “get even”. This is about standing up for ourselves. Here’s an illustrative example of what I’m talking about.
I was at a bar/club and met a group of Asian girls through an old friend. So, to make conversation I asked them what they thought of the place. Now, they could’ve just told me it wasn’t their cup of tea but instead what did they say to me?
One of them responds, “Ummmm, it kinda sucks. Too many Asian guys.” Immediately, another girl interjects with her eyes lighting up, “We like white guys.” And her other lemming friends say, “Yeahhhhh.”
So mind you, I’m by myself and there are 4 of them who are all Asian. At the time, I couldn’t say anything because I was like a deer caught in headlights. I was completely dumbfounded that someone could say something like that to my face so nonchalantly knowing that I AM an Asian male by pedigree NOT by choice.
Folks, its just common courtesy and its a fucked up thing to say. You might argue, well they don’t have to be when their at a social gathering like that. Fine, but frankly I found it quite insulting and demoralizing to the core of my soul because this was about the 100th time I heard this shit throughout my young adulthood. And instead of actually standing up and checkin’ them,if not for myself then at least for my Asian brothers, I just stood there like a dumb ass and took it.
I know for a fact, this type of incident isn’t just unique to me. I’ll bet that many of you have experienced the same in your lifetime only to have it eat away at you internally and as a result, you come to an online sphere of discussion such as this one to drop a complaint about the injustices against Asian men.
Well, that’s fine and dandy. If this is your catharsis for it then great, but my argument is that if we don’t respond to those kind of backhanded comments they will continue to dish them out and trample all over us like elephants in the dating jungle. It absolutely, unambiguously IS about being confrontational and calling them out on their self-hating racist discourse to put an end to its legitimization and practice. Otherwise, we will continue to harbor these feelings of angst, mistrust and resentment while these women keep on legitimizing that only white is right.
Once again, we’re destroying and rebuilding. No room for self-hatred and disloyalty in our circle. That means the real AW who are looking for community through unity with AM (and vice versa) can stay and the rest of the self-hating Asian cowards can leave.
@ King
very eloquently put!
@ MaSir
I’ll have to respectfully disagree that any APA who dates outside their race are self-haters/loathers.
As a 5th generation Asian-American, I have more in common with your typical non-APA or 2nd generation APA. If I were confined to just APAs in my HS, then I would’ve been stuck with the ESL girl with the rice-pickers and the sanrio pencil case. Why would I do that? Just because we have the same skin color?
I dated non-APAs in HS because those were the people I shared most in common with. It had nothing to do with self-loathing. If there was a fellow AF who shared similarities with my kind of upbringing, hobbies and interest, I don’t think there would’ve been a problem with me pursuing her. So I don’t think that the scenario that you pose is entirely black and white as it’s presented.
As for those gal-pals of yours….it makes me wonder why they’re at some asian hangout if they have such a distaste for asian guys. Additionally, it makes me wonder if simply putting up a smoke-screen.
@MaSir: Yikes! Okay, in that case, I’d totally agree that you have to stand up for yourself. That’s a pretty blatant slap in the face.
Masir: http://somekoreanchick.xanga.com/665117840/why-i-will-never-date-a-white-guy-asian-girlwhite-guy-not-for-me/
WOW! An Asian-American girl who fucking gets it.
I just read that link….
I felt a disturbance in the Force. It was as if the voices of a million white guys cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.
As that greatly profound philosopher and rhetorician Keanu Reeves once said….whoa.
@ kobukson
AWESOME link!! It confirms my suspicions that all is not lost for our fellow asian brothers
.
@Kobukson
Hellz yeah it did. I know there are plenty of others like her out there. We just have to find them and support them as much as they’ve been supporting us. That’s community.
@Ben,
This was at a joint in San Diego. I’d say only 25% of the crowd was Asian that night.
@MaSir:
Ahhh, yes. San Diego. *shakes fist in air*
Okay. I’m in San Diego, so I gotta ask… which place was this?
It was at PB Bar & Grill back in the day.
@Masir
25% !?!?!?
Those girls clearly had issues. A diverse crowd is one thing. A homogenous crowd is another. In this particular situation, their comments are unfounded.
Though I still maintain that they are entitled to their racial preferences, it makes no sense for them to make such an asinine comment when they’re not at some de facto “asian” bar/club.
And on that same breath, I would say their comments still wouldn’t discourage me from proving them wrong
. They can’t expect me to take them seriously after that exchange, lol.
Ben II:
As I mentioned earlier, I don’t want to diminish the fact that there IS a disparity. We need to call a spade, a spade. And I’m not going to argue that there ARE AF who date EXCLUSIVELY non-AMs. And in agreeance with you for the most part, I’m not sure if it’s necessarily a shit test as much as it is some sort of condescending, self-hate sort of mentality (for those absolutists). But then there’s a little part of me that also says, “it’s her preference, her choice and prerogative…so why is that wrong?”
Here’s an answer to your devil’s advocate argument. Sometimes a picture speaks a thousand words.
I still believe that they are entitled to the choices they make in their personal relationships. If she were to say, “I only date vegans.” or “I only date non-smokers.”, I would feel the same way about them too.
“I only date vegans” can be justified on a moral principle that one chooses to be with someone who also chooses not to contaminate their bodies with industrially processed meat.
“I only date non-smokers” can be justified on a moral principle that one chooses to be with someone who also chooses not to contaminate their bodies with cancer-causing tobacco.
“I only date non-Asians” can be justified on a moral principle that one chooses to be with someone who….?????
Your argument is based on a false equivalency and therefore falls flat on its face.
But this is not to say that if a woman is being outright nasty (“Asian men disgust me”), that we should simply back down.
Oh. Merely because one is not nasty means that one is not wrong? I’m sure there are many tender, caring, polite child molesters out there.
I agree with you that one should not greet auto-racism with more hate. But auto-racism is still wrong. With all due respect, your vapid “dont worry, be happy” feel-goodism conflates what ought to be two separate strains of thought.
@ MaSir:
I love Ellie from SeoulBeats! I watch her on YouTube all the time. Her older videos were better, IMHO, or at least they were more pertinent to my personal interests. Now, it’s all about K-pop and how hot this teenage scrawny pasty hearthrob sensation etc. is, which simply doesn’t engage people in my age group. =/ She’s hilarious, though, so sometimes I still endure the K-pop vlogs just to enjoy her humor.
@ Ben II:
What’s a rice-picker? I LOVE SANRIO PENCIL CASES! I’m still making the painful transformation from 12-year-old to professional. The USB flash drive I use for work right now is a thumb size Hello Kitty doll. I love it! You pull off her head and tada! there’s the flash drive!
@ All:
How many of the militant PUA-esque commenters here have daughters? Because you are seriously going to tell me that if your daughter’s choice in a romantic partner boiled down to a polite, nerdy white guy with Harvard Medical potential and an Asian frat guy who says boogey-boogey ooga-ooga when he’s happy, you’d still want her to choose the Asian guy? Really? If my (fictional un-born) daughter was debating between a polite, nerdy ASIAN guy with Harvard Medical potential and a white frat guy who says boogey-boogey, I’d emphatically want her to choose the Asian guy, but not because he’s Asian. Forgive my “We are the world” mentality, but can’t we at least try to see beyond race and skin color?
That’s the point here. Women should be encouraged to make decisions intelligently, intelligently here meaning with all the facts and after self-critical awareness, and if her decision is called into question, she has a substantive response.
@kobukson
I did state (and you even quoted me stating it), that there ARE AFs who date exclusively non-APAs. And to be frank, I DO agree with you on this point that it’s wrong, because it does suggest some sort of self-hate/loathing/racism when they date EXCLUSIVELY non-APAs, because they are generalizing entire racial groups (more specifically, ours) when I believe each individual is different. I’m simply stating in my devil’s advocate position that it’s still a person’s opinion, however fucked up backwards it is, they’re still entitled to it.
Just as you so eloquently justified various reasons WHY a person would CHOOSE to be a vegan or non-smoker, an AF could also justify her reasons for choosing to be with a non-APA. Her affinity to fellow vegans or fellow non-smoker DOES NOT necessarily mean that she \hates\ carnivores or smokers (which is apparently the perspective many of the AMs apparently share in this thread). Regardless of how ludicrous her reasons and justifications may sound to you, she still chose to be that way.
Her reasons don’t have to be morally based (regarding veganism, smoking or dating non-APA guys). Maybe she just doesn’t like the taste of meat, and maybe she just doesn’t like the smell of smoke. Just the same, maybe she’s had bad experiences dating AMs. Based on her experiences, she made a choice, for whatever reasons they may be.
The issue that I do find disturbing in this thread, is this notion that AFs needs to only date AMs, which I also find to be wrong. As in the example I posed earlier, regarding my HS days when the only asian girls were the ones in ESL classes. Am I supposed to go after them simply because they were asian, despite the fact that I’m 5th generation asian american and have literally NOTHING in common with them (aside from skin color)?
For what? For solidarity? C’mon man. Work with me here
.
RiceRabbittCake:
Maybe I shouldn’t, but what the hell, here’s a little devil’s advocate for the IR debate:
When an AM engages in IR, are they not also subjecting themselves to similar, (if not the exact same) objectification/fetishization as AF?
Rabbit, your question assumes a false symmetry between AM and AF experience, that they are mirror images of each other, ie everything same except gender.
Males understand why fetish/objectification is a big deal about as much as females understand why WM-AF feels like a kick in the groin for AMs.
@TZ
Rice-pickers – highwater pants suitable for a long day’s work in the rice fields
.
@kabukson
Rabbit, your question assumes a false symmetry between AM and AF experience, that they are mirror images of each other, ie everything same except gender.
but wouldn’t the AF fetish for white guys be the same as the AM fetish for white girls? How are those two different?
or are you referring to how the AF or AM is viewed by their white partners?
Ben,
First of all, I want to tell you that I do not find talking to you to be frustrating at all.
You said:
The issue that I do find disturbing in this thread, is this notion that AFs needs to only date AMs, which I also find to be wrong.
*smacks forehead*
I guess I have to spell things out r e a l l y s l o w l y.
We are not saying AFs must date AMs only. We are saying that AFs are wrong to date WMs only. We want a fair chance at winning her heart. All men are created equal.
I, on the other hand, is also saying that AMs must respond with bitterness, hate, dismissal of such AFs but with forbearance and engagement.
I, on the other hand, is also saying that AMs must NOT respond with bitterness, hate, dismissal of such AFs but with forbearance and engagement.
Do you capiche this? Do we agree?
@ Ben II: If you were in high school in 2006-2007, high water pants were very chic and trendy that year. Many of the power hitting fashion houses were sending them down the runway. And you know the stereotype of us Asian girls–we’re fashion and label snobs. So maybe those AF classmates of yours were just being couture.
Ah, yes. PB Bar and Grille. I’m guessing late 90′s/early 2000′s?
The biggest irony of that? In the last few years, several newer clubs have overtaken PB Bar and Grille, and today, it’s become kind of a run-down “ghetto” club. The mix is now VERY heavily black/latino. Not too many white guys anymore….
Ben:
…but wouldn’t the AF fetish for white guys be the same as the AM fetish for white girls? How are those two different?
Yes, both are wrong.
AM fetish for white girls cause much unseen collateral damage. The worst case scenario is that of a pubescent Asian adolescent girl struggling with self-esteem issues who grows up seeing mostly white women being held as the standard of beauty and then she hears stupid Asian boys saying that “white girls are better”. Years later, that same Asian girl is saying “no Asian men for me” and dating only white guys.
@ kobukson
We are not saying AFs must date AMs only. We are saying that AFs are wrong to date WMs only. We want a fair chance at winning her heart. All men are created equal.
I’m glad you’re enjoying this discussion as much as I am
. Because I share your sentiments EXACTLY.
And just like you, her twisted thinking would not stop me from engaging. And this twisted thinking should not stop fellow AMs from engaging either.
But my argument from the beginning was never meant for the absolutists. They were more targeted towards AFs who dated both AMs and WMs, and that there was absolutely nothing wrong with dating choices as long as they weren’t racially motivated.
@ kabukson
AM fetish for white girls cause much unseen collateral damage. The worst case scenario is that of a pubescent Asian adolescent girl struggling with self-esteem issues who grows up seeing mostly white women being held as the standard of beauty and then she hears stupid Asian boys saying that “white girls are better”. Years later, that same Asian girl is saying “no Asian men for me” and dating only white guys.
you stated that there was false symmetry. I was merely pointing out that they were similar. Both AFs and AMs suffer when their racial counterparts prefer the “superiority” of the WM or WF.
@TZ
try 2006 minus 10 years, lol. Capri pants are one thing. We’re talking barely above ankles kinda look…..and socks with flipflops to match.
@ kobukson
I think we’ve been arguing from the same perspective like passing ships in the night. I’ve been on the same page as you, man. lol.
someone must’ve spiked my kool-aid
King, that was a much classier and tasteful rejoinder to my own cruder, gutter-minded thought-spasm. You are a scholar and a gentleman.
Ben, excellent. You’re a good man. Now I can go tend to rest of the day’s business in peace.
@ Kobukson– Males understand why fetish/objectification is a big deal about as much as females understand why WM-AF feels like a kick in the groin for AMs.
Lol. Well, while I am a woman, I can sympathize with AMs on that one. The emasculation that happens pisses me off. But what I think you are saying is that there is not much understanding at all, correct? I only brought that up because I recently saw this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/signs-your-husband-is-gay_n_687160.html?ref=fb&src=sp#s128443
AM fetishism of WF was recently brought up. How prevalent is it really? If there were general fetishism of WF on the part of AMs, then wouldn’t we see a lot more AMs chasing after the unattractive WFs? From my POV, AMs don’t fetishize WFs to the same degree and is one factors leading to the IR disparity.
@ James.
No, I think AMs fetishize WF. It comes up every time the outdating scenario is raised and the conversation automatically clicks to “White women” with other WOC as an also-ran afterthought. On every Asian PUA that I’ve ever looked into, 95% of the stories/reports somehow involve White women. My guess is that if Asian guys became the flava of the month that they would be just as heavily slanted (statistically) toward Whitey as their female counterparts.
@King,
That’s a bold overstatement. Just because Asian PUAs talk about bagging a white girl doesn’t mean they’ll take her on the sole basis that she’s white. IMHO when comparing the average white girl with the average Asian, the latter wins majority of the time and even more so when factoring age into the comparison.
I don’t want to see my Asian brothers with non-Asian women just because they’re not Asian. Unless that’s what they truly want and its not strictly out of spite then fine. Otherwise it just looks desperate. I am open to dating women of a different ethnic background as me, but I ain’t jockin’ her steelo simply because she’s white. That would make me no better than these \white guys only\ self-loathing Asian lassies.
The frustration is over the amalgamation of disparities: dating, media and entertainment. Dating impacts us the most personally.
But what I think you are saying is that there is not much understanding at all, correct? I only brought that up because I recently saw this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/18/signs-your-husband-is-gay_n_687160.html?ref=fb&src=sp#s128443
Rabbit, not sure how that link bears relevance to the discussion at hand.
Anyway, yes there seems to be misunderstanding. Too many mixed signals. I agree 1000% with Jaewhan. How ridiculous is it that these all these anti asian fetish crusaders are all married to white guys? Does anyone really expect people to be stupid enough to think that it’s all just an accident? How about the fact that they all seem to have white fetish? It’s hypocritical, plain and simple. Even a neutral, outside observer would agree. And I truly don’t understand why anyone would go out of their way to defend them. It’s as hypocritical as an AM who bashes AF-WM’s but then goes out to pick up white women. Yet, largely depending on where you sit on the gender divide, people are quick to call out the one but remain silent about the other. There are very few truly principled people of integrity in this tarnished business. There is too much hypocrisy in activism and identity politics. Nobody is fooled but there is plenty of mistrust. Sometimes I am tempted to scream “damn you all to hell” and wipe my hands clean of this business and regret the day that I even heard of “Asian-American activism”.
@Kobukson,
We need not go on damning those Asian female phonies and flunkies. They’re not allowed within our community of trust anyway. We can disregard everything that they stand for when it comes to that fetishizing realm of Asian-American activism and continue focusing on the positive and strengthening relationships with our sistas who’ve been sincere to the cause.
I’m done.
“That’s a bold overstatement. Just because Asian PUAs talk about bagging a white girl doesn’t mean they’ll take her on the sole basis that she’s white. IMHO when comparing the average white girl with the average Asian, the latter wins majority of the time and even more so when factoring age into the comparison.”
Perhaps… but you have to admit that White girls come up an awful lot whenever IR alternative outdating comes up.
So, let me ask you this honest question, MaSir: If Asian guys became, all of the sudden, the object of admiration and affection by White women, you believe that Asian guys would just pass, for the most part? They would say…forget it, I only date Asian girls! It could never work out that 30 to 40 percent might end up with blonds? Only Asian women could be that weak, right?
The current preference for Asian women among AMs has *nothing* to do with a perceived lack of opportunity elsewhere, eh?
Hey King,
I think you’ll be presently surprised by the loyalty AM will show to AFs lol (Providing that the AFs give as much opportunity to AMs as WFs do in the suggested scenario).
Of course they wouldn’t just say, “Forget it, I only date Asian girls.” There may be quite a few hooking up with them, I’m sure.
My personal preference however is a woman who shares my own background. Unless a white girl was on the same level aesethically and open to culturally ATA (all things Asian) then, yeah, I’d give it a shot.
And that’s the whole reason for our disappointment with the current social dynamics. We can talk about hypotheticals all day long, but until it actually happens, its nothing but castles in the sky and fairly meaningless to even talk about.
But what IS meaningful is building up our community supporting one another AM/AF couples which seems to by a dying breed within certain areas of the U.S.
@King:
The problem is that you’re not drawing an equivalent comparison.
People on here aren’t saying, “Asian women should ONLY date Asian men.”
People are saying, “Asian women should not REFUSE to date Asian men.”
So, this statement draws a faulty parallel:
To answer your question… yes! I believe we would be more likely to date white women. But, we wouldn’t necessarily be ruling out Asian women, either.
Of course, the Asian men who do starting saying, “I will only date white women”… well, they will be subjected to the same scrutiny as the Asian women who will only date white men.
@TZ
One’s choice of partner is not the sole component of one’s credibility, but it is part of that image. It is the way public figures work, people will judge you by your personal life, and your choices in your personal life is also weighted against your professional career if you are the kind that is in the public limelight, like politicians/Activists/Community leaders.
This is universal for all people, take my Obama and Michelle example, do you honestly think Obama would had the same kind of support from Blacks, especially female population, if Michelle was white?
Or to use less unsavory examples, why do you think a politician’s career take a huge hit when public finds out they are cheating. What does one do in his or her personal life has anything to governing?
Likewise, your choice of husband will be weighted against your credibility. Like or it not, the IR disparity and undesirability of Asian men is a big issue for a lot of Asian men. If you want to represent and gain confidence form that demography, and be the voice of that demography, not only must you prove yourself with your professional actions, but your personal actions as well. Not saying you have to marry an Asian men, but just expects a much harder to climb if your husband is white.
The reason for this has been repeated many times by many other posters, so I will not repeat them, but basically it comes down to a simple phrase, you talk the talk, but do you walk to the walk. When you are an activist/community leader/politician/public figure, people expect you to be a Paragon of your ideals, not just professionally, but personal life as well. This applies to pretty much every one, hence why the PETA eating Hamburger analogy is used.
Of course, one can simply be like those two lady bloggers, who’s only speaking on behalf of her self and her specific group of AF, and completely ignore other gender.
Masir:
We need not go on damning those Asian female phonies and flunkies. They’re not allowed within our community of trust anyway. We can disregard everything that they stand for when it comes to that fetishizing realm of Asian-American activism and continue focusing on the positive and strengthening relationships with our sistas who’ve been sincere to the cause.
There is a verse in the Bible (1 Corinthians 8:13) which reads like this:
Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to be scandalized and to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
The context of this statement comes from a debate raging within early church in Corinth. The church was teaching people not to bow before false gods. Some followers, however, were purchasing and consuming meat that were offered to false gods. There were others who were saying that this was wrong. The defenders of eating meat offered to false gods, however, were saying that there was nothing wrong with it. It was practical because such meat was cheaper, hence more readily available, and that it was not a matter of right or wrong. Eating a particular kind of meat, even if associated with a disgraceful practice, was not like killing, lying, or stealing, they reasoned.
How remarkably similar this is to our own debates about IR! We too are guilty of bowing before a false god, which is “white privilege”. Yet we have in our midst individuals who are in marital bond with whites, which is rather like eating meat which is associated with the false god of white privilege. Now, there is nothing inherently right or wrong about being married to a white, just as there is nothing inherently wrong with eating a certain kind of meat (who cares what it was used for), but it causes others to be scandalized and to stumble. And these individuals are not just regular people, but ones who assume some role of leadership within the community activists. Which means that they are in the public eye and more accountable to public opinion more so than just regular people.
This is also why males who are angered by the consequences of the false god of white privilege also need to exercise principled restraint when it comes to IR. If you, as an Asian male, put white women as false goddesses on a pedestal, then you cause sisters to stumble. The fact that so many AFs are married to whites does not give us the right to embark on a jihad of “trying to even the score”. You are just perpetuating a vicious circle and bankrupting our cause of its moral sanction without which it would fall completely on its face.
These anti-fetish crusaders married to whites need to realize that they may be fighting one problem but they are creating other problems, whether they know it or not. They are creating more divisions. Now they may try to rationalize it up and down until they turn blue in the face but ultimately it just sounds like ME, ME, ME, I, I, I…SELFISH, SELFISH, SELFISH. That is antithetical to true activism. Of what use is it to call yourself “community activist” when you care little for the community?
@ Dennis Hong: “I just find it more satisfying to respond to their “challenge” by finding myself a non-Asian woman who *doesn’t* need to be convinced that she needs to date me.”
agreed, i feel like i’m doing something for the cause and it’s refreshing to be around an open minded woman who ironically is of a different race.
@ King: “The current preference for Asian women among AMs has *nothing* to do with a perceived lack of opportunity elsewhere, eh?”
i think that it absolutely does. they feel despite all the flak from AFs, our best shot is still with AFs. AMs are in dire need of good male role models who are good with women. i think AMs would benefit greatly from having racially diverse friends, as they served as my role models and influenced my personality.
how come nobody has commented on the fact that AMs who self segregate lack good male role models? a solution would be for AMs to have more diverse friends and learn actual personality and “game” and being fun from their peers.
To sum up my rather long-ass sermon, if you find yourselves in a gray area, confounded by a dilemma where there are no clear right answers, it is better to err towards the greater good rather than to err towards the self.
We are not isolated islands all unto ourselves but we are all interconnected with each other through an invisible web of words, impressions, and perception. Our actions have real consequences that ripple throughout the social fabric.
I don’t think that the AFs in question *began* by ruling out AMs either… it is something that developed over time and with privilege.
But, I also think that there’s often a logical gap that occurs when AMs consider the high outdating and outmarriage statistics, and then assume that ALL (or most) of those Asian women have categorically ruled out dating all Asian men. There is no proof of that at all.
Are there some AFs who completely rule out Asian guys, and wear it on their arm, like a Hermès handbag? Yes, and that is totally wrong and totally ignorant! But does this truly represent all or even most of the AFs out there who may date non-Asian guys?
There is always going to be a core of bad faith actors, but how many girls are just saying it because, in their circle, it’s become the fashionable thing to say? How many hold that opinion lightly enough that they could be convinced otherwise? How many don’t believe that at all, but ended up dating a White guy because he asked her and an Asian guy didn’t?
The “Whites Only” sign exists and it is a problem.
But I just think it’s a mistake to assume that that every Asian woman who dates out is wearing one.
@ Ei and Dennis:
Dennis said, “People on here aren’t saying, ‘Asian women should ONLY date Asian men.’ People are saying, ‘Asian women should not REFUSE to date Asian men.’”
I like this clarification. It helps me navigate this thread better because I was getting the two statements confused. At times it sounded like some people *were* saying Asian women should only date Asian men. Then again, does everyone here agree with Dennis’s proposition? Or are folks really saying Asian women should only date Asian men?
To tailor the point even more narrowly, are we saying Asian female activists should not refuse to date Asian men if they want full credibility as an activist? Or are we saying something more extreme, that Asian female activists should only date Asian men if they want full credibility as an activist?
Also, I was recently watching a moving talk given by Sheryl WuDunn and it got me thinking about how even more complex this matter is. APA activism isn’t this one-headed beast. White privilege is one issue. Fetishism is another. And then there are the feminist issues and gender inequalities in China that a lot of APA feminist activists battle. In the event of WuDunn’s activist work, for example, if she were to, say, abort a fetus because the baby was female and she wanted a son instead, or if funds in the WuDunn household were tight and as a result she chose the higher education of her son over the higher education of a daughter, then absolutely her credibility as an APA feminist activist would be challenged. But I simply do not see how her credibility is challenged by the skin color of her husband (Nicholas Kristof). I, frankly, do not think it is.
The hostile judgment a lot of the guys on this thread might pass on WuDunn is not arrived after presentation of proof that WuDunn “refuses to date Asian,” but rather, it arrives immediately after finding out that she is simply not married to an Asian, which implies at least to me that yes, we are indeed saying that APA women should be married to APA men, period. Same with the two female bloggers. This post did not arise after presentation of proof that they refuse to date Asian men; it comes immediately after proof that they are not in romantic relationships with Asian men, but rather, like WuDunn, are involved with a white guy. I cannot repeat this enough: it makes me sick to the stomach to think that in 2010, we are still judging a woman’s worth by who she chooses to marry.
Now if the contention here truly is “Asian women should not refuse to date/marry Asian men,” then I can get behind that statement because it is, well it is not merit-based per se, but it does speak directly to a woman’s thought process. The contention “Asian women should only date/marry Asian men” on the other hand, aside from all the alarming -isms it brings up, is utterly inconsiderate of her thought process.
“To sum up my rather long-ass sermon, if you find yourselves in a gray area, confounded by a dilemma where there are no clear right answers, it is better to err towards the greater good rather than to err towards the self.”
Wow. I like that.
@ King and Kobukson:
“To sum up my rather long-ass sermon, if you find yourselves in a gray area, confounded by a dilemma where there are no clear right answers, it is better to err towards the greater good rather than to err towards the self.”
I agree with that statement, except how exactly are we applying it here? Are we saying that Asian women should marry only Asian men “for the greater good” even if they’re madly in love with a white man, because marrying Asian is the “greater good” and marrying white is “selfish”? Yikes.
@King
I don’t doubt for a second that if white women found AM hot in general that there will be a lot more AM-WF pairing. And also, given the media brain-washing that places WF at the top of the dating totem, it’s quite likely that AMs will be tainted by the same bias and (for example) judge a 7/10 WF on par with a 8/10 AF.
However, I wanted to focus more on the abundance of cases where the partners in IR are totally mismatched in terms of looks. Why are they together? Clearly looks have taken a back seat. Could it be that the race of the less attractive partner trumps his/her appearance? I know attraction has a lot more components than just looks and race but IMO, mismatched couples in terms of appearance happens a lot more often in WM/AF couples (going both ways I may add) than homogenous couples.
Back to the fetish thing. We often see very attractive AFs going out with ugly white guys. Are many of these unions taking place only because the unattractive partner is white? If so, I would classify this as white-fetish. Similarly, if there were many attractive AMs going out with unattractive white-chicks, I would attribute this to be white-fetishism as well but I really don’t see this happening much at all. This is also a reason why I believe that if the scenarios were reversed when it comes to main-stream’s portrayal of AM/AF attractiveness that IR disparity wouldn’t be a quite as bad.
@TZ
Right… cause nobody EVER judges a man by the woman he marries.
Like who would care if Obama or Malcom X was married to a non African American woman right?
I cannot repeat this enough: it makes me sick to the stomach to think that in 2010, we are still judging a man’s worth by who he chooses to marry.
Don’t know what others are saying but my position is the following.
If you want to be a so-called activist, then be prepared to be scrutinized and criticized as well since you are participating in the very thing you condemn. Does that mean Asian women should ONLY date Asian men? Of course not. It does make your role as an activist much more genuine and powerful. Asian women should not reject their own flesh and blood regardless of the reason. Its a line I’ve heard way too many times which I attribute to the spawn of hate that was brooding inside of me for quite some time. This is my way of letting it go and channeling all of that negativity into something more positive. AA couples – community through unity.
If you want to continue bashing an entire Asian male populace…well…that’s your prerogative but you will not be welcome in my circle of trust grounded on AA principles, core values and most importantly the AA couples who stand united in support of one another.
Some of these women may ask, “Well what if I wasn’t intentionally looking for a white guy and I just happened to fall in love with one and marry him?” Oh yes…there is that case. Just make sure you’re okay with a certain percentage of Asian men “just happening to assume you’re like every other white guy fetishizer”. Don’t get upset when you start hearing a pour of outcries from AA men because it is inevitable.
If you can’t stand the heat, then get the fuck out of the kitchen.
@Tz
Honestly, if WuDunn were brought up in the west and/or now living in relative comfort and security, I wouldn’t give her much credibility regardless of who her partner is. If on the other hand, she were peasant farmer all her life and is now married to a poor white peasant farmer and both remain poor peasant farmers in china and then I would give her full credibility. Anything else would fall somewhere in between.
@Jaewan,
Didn’t this “personal vs political” thing come up a few months ago on this site? Seems I recall an AF participant took the stance that the personal should not impact the credibility of ones political views and the topic had once again something to do with race and gender (surprise, surprise). She actually asked her white-husband and he responded that off course your personal choices can have a big impact on your political credibility. I found it very amusing at the time.
Do you remember?
@TZ
I was referring to APA activist wants to speak on behalf of Asian men, all Asian Americans, or Asian Unity. For WuDunn, she’s a feminist, who are her intended audience, who is she fighting for? I don’t think it is issues facing Asian American men or Asian American unity. If she does, of course she’s not going to have much credibility in that area.
You are absolutely right that Asian and Asian American issues are a multi-headed beast. There is white privilege, the Asian fetish, the emasculation of Asian men in the media or the undesirability of your average Asian guy, the glass ceiling, violence against Asians, etc, etc.
Now, there are a lot of Asian issues that affects both men and women equally, such as media yellowface, violence against Asians, foreigner stereotypes etc. But there are also issues that have far more impact on the male demography, while others that have far more impact on the female demography.
But here’s the thing, for Mrs WuDunn, those two lady bloggers, as well as all the public figures like them (you can include Amy Tan in here as well if you like), they focus on a few aspects, ie, typically the one that are directly affects the female population or the ones that is most easily consumed/accepted by the white population, while completely ignoring, and sometimes even outright encourages the discrimination/stereotype of their male counterpart.
The fact their husbands/bf are white of course doesn’t change what they preach. But as jaehwan has pointed out, their support and position is going to be much weak among Asian American men, and it does diminish them as an Asian-American activist, or even Asian activists. While on individual level none of those ladies might outright dismissive of Asian men as spouse, when most of them are married to white men, and forms a trend, the damage is just as real.
I’m not going to sugar coat this, and I think my rational is the same as many other as well. Why should I support this Asian Feminist/or those two lady bloggers, whom, while standing for right causes, leads a personal life and creates a public image that re-enforces many of the issues and negative stereotypes facing Asian-American men.
I believe this question is one of the main theme of the original post.
PS.
Just to add, those women are the most famous, most mainstream, most public. So their image and their POV will, and do affect how Asians as a whole are judged. So not only do they often ignore issues facing Asian Men, the public will mistakenly think they speak and represent all Asian Americans.
@Ei, Mo Bettah, James
Great args.
For the last time for all of the myopic, pretentious, white-worshipping Asian females out there who just don’t get it. Allow me to present to you an analogy which should clear up any misunderstandings about the AMs’ position.
Imagine if you will a politician out there who goes around publicly preaching about family values and talks up a big Game about how unity within the family is the cornerstone of America. He campaigns on it. Writes books and blogs about it.
Meanwhile in private, this guy is flying down to Brazil to continue his affair with some woman he met at an event a while back. Not only that, he’s piggybacking off of taxpayer dollars to fulfill his selfishly-motivated agenda.
Some reporters out there begin to investigate his personal life only to discover that he’s been preaching one thing and acting with injustice behind the scenes. When finally exposed and critics begin to chastise him, he exhibits a behavior similar to those of these Asian-American female so-called “Asian-American activists”.
“My personal life has nothing to do with my role in politics!”
RI~~~GHT…
What were we thinking? Of course! Why was everyone giving Tiger Woods so much flack? I mean c’mon, just because he gave some hoes a golden shower and dominated more holes in the sack than on the golf course doesn’t warrant the public to be so harshly critical of him. Remember, his personal life has NOTHING to do with golf!!
If you can’t take the heat, get the fuck out of the kitchen.
This post did not arise after presentation of proof that they refuse to date Asian men; it comes immediately after proof that they are not in romantic relationships with Asian men, but rather, like WuDunn, are involved with a white guy. I cannot repeat this enough: it makes me sick to the stomach to think that in 2010, we are still judging a woman’s worth by who she chooses to marry.
Women often judge themselves according to whom they marry. Men may be critical but one would be hard pressed to find more cattier creatures than women themselves when evaluating one’s own position in terms of status, prestige, money, power and all the other trappings of image that having a white…I mean, “right” spouse espouses. Yes, you’re right, it makes me sick to my stomach. What kind of a feminism is this?
It also hasn’t escaped my attention that women (including you) are avoiding my question of why is Asian fetish on the part of white men is bad but white fetish on the part of the ladies is OK? Because that’s the message projected when practically all of these so-called activists are so predictably married to white guys.
Why is male objectification of women not OK when so many activists are riding on the coat-tails of white male privilege?
We have no proof about anything really, do we? You claim that we have no proof that she writes off Asian men. Yet you have no proof either that oh, it was “all just love” and an accident of fate. You even want us to go as far as to believe that there were absolutely no quality Asian men present in the lives of these women who shared similar values and goal. The only thing we can prove beyond the shadow of reasonable doubt is that 99.99% of AF activists choose white over not just Asian but everything else.
Once, twice, or three times…OK. But when one has trouble counting the number of AF-AM activist power couples on one hand…something seems rotten in the state of Denmark. Every one of these cases was a pure accident of fate? Y’all be having too many “accidents”. Patterns based in reality mean much more than even the most furious hand-waving attempts at unprovable abstractions. You are basically saying: pay no attention to the 800 pound gorilla in the room! You are stretching our credulousness to the breaking point. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
I believe in a legal system that sets us all as innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Kobukson, I’ll do my best to answer your question after I’m done grocery shopping. =P
“99.99% of AF activists choose white over not just Asian but everything else.”
Is that really true? I’ve never really looked into it, but I figured for 40% out marriage in the Asian population, I assume somewhat lower numbers o=among activists… I would have guessed, maybe 20%. Are their real numbers on this?
@ TZ
“better to err towards the greater good rather than to err towards the self.”
I was thinking of it more in terms of just a general life philosophy… it has sort of a hippocratic quality to it, don’t you think?
But no, I wouldn’t automatically equate the “greater good” to mean that an Asian women must always end up with an Asian guy. Of course, if she is actively excluding Asian guys, based on their race, or culture, then I’d say that it was definitely not toward the greater good.
TZ:
Also, I was recently watching a moving talk given by Sheryl WuDunn and it got me thinking about how even more complex this matter is. APA activism isn’t this one-headed beast. White privilege is one issue. Fetishism is another. And then there are the feminist issues and gender inequalities in China that a lot of APA feminist activists battle.
Yes, there are multiple facets to this thing we call “Asian-American activism”. Why compartmentalize? Why divorce the personal from the political? Why do we keep divorcing female issues from male issues instead of having the wits to realize how they are subtly linked? It’s like you ladies are saying we have X, Y, and Z that are more important than what you fellas find troubling so just get over your petty hangups. Petty to whom? You? Why can’t we just agree that it would be so much better if there were more AF-AM activist couples to speak to all causes and show how they are all linked together, which is ultimately what this is all about? Instead, it much rather sounds like you ladies would rather just go off and do your own thing. I believe AM’s are more than willing to get behind AFs. But if you want us to care then you have to care about our concerns to. Anything less than that is oppressive and frankly you ladies have more power to be oppressive to us than we do to you. You treat us as if we’re invisible, not worthwhile to be considered as an important factor in shaping your activism and worldview. Why can’t we meet each other in the middle? No wonder there’s so much division. A divided house cannot stand for long. Is any of this making any sense? Am I talking to a brick wall? I think I’m going to go insane.
@Kobukson,
Your last post sums up our consternation with the like quite well. Just about an hour ago I stepped out side to go do some shopping and guess what? I counted 7 AF/WM couples while strolling around the area. That’s 7 couples in less than two hours!
And guess how many I saw in the other direction? For those of you who guessed “Zero” are absolutely correct.
I see this shit every day. It was cool the first hundred times I saw it, tolerable the next hundred, but now its like seeing a bunch of fucking cockroaches wherever I go.
@TZ
I believe in a legal system that sets us all as innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
This isn’t a system based on legality. Its a system based on institutionalized racism which AF/WM couples are actively promoting through their actions. As the old saying goes, “Actions speak louder than words!”
Who is absolving women of color for having white fetishes? Come to think of it, I did answer your question before. I’m not defending the woman who declares, “I will only date white men.” I’m not defending anybody who declares, “I will only date [insert ethnicity] men/women, and what’s more, I do not find the men/women of my own ethnicity to be attractive.” All I am saying is don’t hang every woman of color romantically involved with a white man. You don’t have all the facts.
We’re not saying the various sub-issues within the umbrella of APA activism are mutually exclusive of one another, and quite the contrary. I’m being interpreted as prioritizing women’s issues before men’s here because I keep talking about women’s issues. Well, I keep talking about women’s issues because nobody else is. You’re all taking care of the men’s issues quite passionately. I’m trying to allow for a fair and balanced discussion. I’m bring up women’s issues to show that the situation isn’t as one sided as some of the men here think that it is.
No, a divided house won’t stand for long, and whether you like it or not, Asian women dating white men, and even Asian women who declare that they will only date white men, are part of this family. Rejecting them right from the get go won’t change the status quo. Accepting them, showing them your warmth, and then going from there might at least get open dialogue going.
Slightly off-topic, but are there five books written by an Asian American women that has a Asian American Male Protogonist getting the girl (not a girl, but the actual female protogonist) at the end? Actually, is there even one?
Happy to buy them off amazon straight away if they actually exist (perfect gift for a few nephews).
On the other hand, it’s more on topic than I thought, considering the issues of lack of asian american male representation in the media/literature.
…and even Asian women who declare that they will only date white men, are part of this family. Rejecting them right from the get go won’t change the status quo. Accepting them, showing them your warmth, and then going from there might at least get open dialogue going.
Ummm…been there, done that and doesn’t work. Empirically denied. No matter how open we are, at the end of the day, these women go back to their white hubbies and Asian men go back empty handed. If you want to play that game, let’s just call it business. Quid pro quo.
Sure I’ll support your cause. Now what do I get out of it?
@N,
I would like to see these books as well. Please let me know if you find that list. You can contact me via my blog.
@TZ
I agree that it can get a bit extreme. It can quickly become ‘There are ALL like that’ type of arguments and I agree that it’s not healthy and just plain wrong at times.
But I think a lot of times, it’s a trust issue. Because generally in terms of racial discrimination to AMs, the No.1 culprits are WMs and the No. 2 culprits are AFs (and usually in relation to one another). But I’m sure that if the WM/AF couple have actually shown some examples on how they have helped or tried to help with some of AM issues, then they will be happily accepted.
So some of the guys might have been wrong in their judgment of those activists, but on the other hand, have they really shown evidence that they understand the AM issues?
And is human rights of Chinese women an Asian American issue, or is it a human rights issue? (I don’t really think it’s even a feminists issue).
I meant, had the WM/AF couples shown evidence that they understand the AM issues.
Now that topic of books by AFs has come up, has anyone here ever wondered why the book \Racing Romance: Love, Power, and Desire Among Asian American/ White Couples\ by Kumiko Nemoto (a university prof, I think) has thus far gone totally unnoticed? http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Romance-Desire-American-Couples/dp/0813545331
I remember several AA sites mentioned this book when it was first published but it just disappeared off the radar screen. I googled for professional book reviews/critiques and couldn’t find any. This book supposedly deals with issues such as asian fetishism, race-based attraction and so on. I would have thought that AF activists like the two that were mentioned in this topic would be all over this one. Isn’t work by fellow AFs worth discussing? Would it have made any difference if it were written by a white-man?
@ James.
Nice find!
Do you have a copy?
It seems a bit pricey, $21.00 for a 155 pg. paperback?
Still, I may have to bite the bullet and order one.
Rabbit, not sure how that link bears relevance to the discussion at hand.
I had said that I was playing devil’s advocate and tossing that one in for thought.
My point is that gay AMs are fetishized, as I believe (to a certain extent) are AMs who date out. I also think that the whitewashing of straight AFs extends to gay AMs and possibly AFs.
No, a divided house won’t stand for long, and whether you like it or not, Asian women dating white men, and even Asian women who declare that they will only date white men, are part of this family.
I think (correct me if I’m wrong, TZ!) what is being said here is that you can’t deny that these women are still part of the Asian American family. Some might not like that, but how can it be denied? In order to make any headway, one has to really hear what is being said.
Speaking of which, Kobukson, yes–we hear you. We’re out here. It’s just sometimes hard for us to get a word in edgewise between all the flaming and name calling.
From the Meet Asian American Authors book list from Amazon
The Piano Teacher: A Novel by Janice Y. K. Lee
Based in: WWII Hong Kong
Male protagonist: British White Male
Love interest: White female/Euroasian female
Snow Flower and the Secret Fan: A Novel by Lisa See
Based in: Olden days China
Male protagonist: None (Though there are abusive Chinese Husbands)
Female protagonist: Chinese females
Soon to be made to a film directed by Wayne Wang (Joy Luck Club 2)
Pearl of China: A Novel by Anchee Min
Based in: Cultural Revolution China
Two female protagonists
Antagonists are Chinese males
Chinese Cinderella: The True Story of an Unwanted Daughter by Adeline Yen Mah
No male protagonist/love interests?
Mainly about a rough childhood.
,b>Dragon Bones: A Red Princess Mystery (Red Princess Mysteries) by Lisa See
Based in: Modern China
Male Protagonist/love interest: White American Male
Female Protagonist: Chinese Female
Petals From The Sky by Mingmei Ye
Based in: China/US
Male Protagonist/love interest: White American Male
Female Protagonist: Chinese Female
Good Things by Mia King
Male Protagonist/love interest: White American Male
Female Protagonist: White American Female
Only Uni (The Sushi Series, Book 2) by Camy Tang
Based in: US
Male Protagonist/love interest: White American Male?
Antagonist: Creepy Asian American Male (but attractive?)
Female Protagonist: Asian American Female
My Year of Meats by Ruth L. Ozeki
Based in: Japan/US
Male Protagonist/love interest: Older White American Male
Antagonist: Japanese Male
Female Protagonist: Asian American Female, Asian Female
The Bonesetter’s Daughter by Amy Tan
Amy Tan
Sweet Life by Mia King
Male Protagonist/love interest: White American Male
Female Protagonist: White American Female
The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan
Amy Tan Classic
Kira-Kira (Newbery Medal Book) by Cynthia Kadohata
Based in: US
Children’s book, sounds quite beautiful though. No Asian guy bashing!!!! (I think)
Wild Ginger: A Novel by Anchee Min
Based in: Cultural Revolution China
Male Protagonist/love interest: Chinese Male who turns Antagonist
Female Protagonist: Euroasian Female
The Last Empress: A Novel by Anchee Min
Based in: Ancient China
Male Protagonist/love interest:: None, but a lot of pathetic Chinese Males
Female Protagonist: Chinese Female (To be fair, Tzu Hsi is probably judged a lot harder by Ancient Chinese historians because she was a woman ruler, the men during those times have probably done a lot worse).
Unaccustomed Earth: Stories (Vintage Contemporaries) by Jhumpa Lahiri
Short stories that deals with a range of issues.
NO white saviors from what I have read.
The Space Between Us: A Novel ( Deckle Edge ) (P.S.) by Thrity Umrigar
Based in India. Indian female/Indian male?
The Namesake (movie tie-in edition) by Jhumpa Lahiri
Male protagonist: Indian American male
One Amazing Thing by Chitra Banerjee Divakaruni
Various characters, but no Asian Male?
Itsuka by Joy Kogawa
Fight for compensation for Japanese-Canadian internments.
So maybe Namesake (Indian American males seems to have better options) and maybe Only Uni – Asian guy is depicted as a creepy dude, but at least he’s attractive. And God, there’s a lot of China bashing going in the publishing world.
TZ:
You don’t have all the facts.
Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence.
I believe in a legal system that sets us all as innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
As was already pointed out, we are outside of the court of legal jurisprudence. We are under natural law. Reason, logic, inference. We may not have all the facts. But we do have before us plainly visible and known facts. A recurring, familiar pattern that occurs within the context and reality of white male privilege and the unspoken color code (white on top…everyone else marginal). But you insist that we cannot or should not deduce that it implies that AF activists write-off AMs. However, the “facts” you have in mind are largely unprovable unless one is a mind-reader. How utterly convenient for the case you make. Yet we have probable cause, which is informed by the experience of multitudes of AMs.
I will graciously concede that we cannot infer wholesale AM write-off. But we are still left with the fact that the pattern exists, demanding explanation, which no amount of mental gymnastics can deny. What can we infer then? The answer is not “nothing”.
The onus is not on us to prove that all these activists are writing off AMs. The onus is on the activists themselves to prove that they do not abet white male privilege and hegemony. Considering the additional facts that they are activists, and what’s more activists who are concerned with this thing called race-based fetish, which means that they should be cognizant of the sociology of the dynamics of race, power, and privilege and how all that both directly and indirectly affects people (ie, they really ought to know better than anyone else), I’d say they’re on dangerously thin ice.
TZ, please kindly acknowledge the fact that the corroborating evidence makes your defendants highly suspect and that you are defending the indefensible. Otherwise, I look forward to poking more holes in the specious apologetics of a highly trained legal mind.
@ RCR: *Exactly* what I mean. And I second your point about how it feels like we can’t get a word in without being attacked for defending our sisters. Is it that surprising we’d defend our sisters?
@ Kobukson: Plaintiff needs to bring forth a prima facie cause of action to file a complaint. My point was simply that in this case, Plaintiff fails to state a cause of action. And damages way too speculative. And yes, absolutely the “onus” is on you guys if you’re the ones filing the complaint.
Rabbit:
I think (correct me if I’m wrong, TZ!) what is being said here is that you can’t deny that these women are still part of the Asian American family. Some might not like that, but how can it be denied? In order to make any headway, one has to really hear what is being said.
I am hearing what is being said. Women such as yourself said that AMs chasing after white women is wrong. It hurts us all, both AA men and women. I heard and I changed my whole stance on AM IR 180 degrees.
Now I’m seeing some women bending over backwards to defend AF *activists* doing the same thing. Is Urban right? Are women double-minded creatures who’d not yield an inch even though we may yield a foot? Sisters, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
TZ especially is talented at performing Matrix like evasion maneuvers.
And yes, absolutely the “onus” is on you guys if you’re the ones filing the complaint.
Exhibit A: White male privilege is alive and well and kicking.
Exhibit B: All these activists are married to white males and ONLY white males. Their choices *ipso facto* abets white male privilege.
Korean and Korean-American themes in English
The Foreign Student: A Novel by Susan Choi
Male protagonist: Korean Male!!!
Female protagonist/love interest: White American Female
Secondhand World by Katherine Min
Female protagonist: Korean American Female
Male protagonist/love interest: Albino (White?)
Books sounds interesting though.
Comfort Woman by Nora Okja Keller
Female protagonist: Japanese Female
Antagonist: Japanese Male? (Since it’s on comfort woman)
Fox Girl by Nora Okja Keller
Female protagonist: Korean Females
Male protagonist/love interest: Black American
A Cab Called Reliable: A Novel by Patti Kim
Korean Amercian daughter/Father relationship – seems interesting.
The Interpreter: A Novel by Suki Kim
Female protagonist: Korean American Female
Male protagonist/love interest: Relationships with married men (white?), but doesn’t seem to be a significant part of the book
Mystery – seem interesting
When My Sister Was Cleopatra Moon by Frances Park
Female protagonist: Korean American Females
Male protagonist/love interest: White American Males?
To Swim Across the World: A Novel by Frances Park
Female protagonist: Korean Females
Male protagonist: Korean Male
A Step From Heaven by An Na
Female protagonist: Korean American Female
Antagonist: Abusive Father, Weak mother
In Full Bloom by Caroline Hwang
Female protagonist: Korean American Female
Male protagonist/love interest: Never Date Asian guy variety
When My Name Was Keoko by Linda Sue Park
Japanese occupation
Year of Impossible Goodbyes by Sook Nyul Choi
Japanese occupation – but sounds quite fascinating.
So after two book lists, I still haven’t found one book whether the love interest is an Asian American Male, (there’s two Asian FOB love interests in this list, if that helps) so where’s the AF/AM relationships in the literature world?
I give up.
I’m guessing female asian american writers really despise asian american guys. lol
@TZ
Why are you even bothering to defend these women? Expend your energy in fighting the social injustice all Asian-Americans face today including both male and female. Instead of acting as a bulletproof vest for these women who are living, breathing performative contradictions, why not take the time supporting women like SomeKoreanChick and others?
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2204297134#!/group.php?gid=2204297134&v=photos
I guess after seeing images like this in entertainment, online and in public, Asian men are supposed to just stay silent??
“Exhibit A: White male privilege is alive and well and kicking.
Exhibit B: All these activists are married to white males and ONLY white males. Their choices *ipso facto* abets white male privilege.”
Logical fallacy: Post hoc ergo propter hoc.
@N
This is where all of the Asian female activists interject, “There’s nothing wrong with writing literature where the female protagonist is Asian and the male protagonist is white! Get over it!”
@James and King
I remember reading parts of this book on google books and I’m not really sure it’s worth that much money. So Have a read on google books before the purpose.
It’s basically done in interviews with Asian american women and men in different relationships. I remember one interview with a AF/WM couple. The AF says she love her parents and if anything gets along better with her father than her mother, her father’s an first gen who’s an engineer? She, herself is ivy-trained (I think) and thinks it’s cool that “it’s trendy for white guys to have asian girlfriends”.
Her parents were opened for her to marry either an asian or an white guy. But she never considered dating an asian guy. She thinks that Asian men doesn’t treat women nicely (but white guys do) and that they were all very small, even though her brother is 6-2, but she thinks that her brother is an exception and that he goes out with white girls. Oh, and she hates Asian FOBs (of either gender, I think).
This might sound made up, or out of an Esther Ku act, but this was all true, none of it is made up. (read p. 77-80)
Actually, when I think about it. It is well worth the money. lol
(But nothing we don’t already know)
@ MaSir Jones
Heh, I get you. I was way too optimistic.
I seriously thought there are Asian American Women writers out there that are willing to give some love for the asian brothers lol (considering there are still 60% that are meant to marry us).
But obviously the publishers, which will be white men, will act exactly like the Hollywood Producers and I-phone people in shutting out Asian men.
@TZ and Rabbit
What do you girls think of the lack of positive Asian American Men representation in the literature world? (at least, that’s what it seems, from my two hour search on Amazon).
You know. Maybe this is why Asian moms baby their sons more than their daughters, because they know how society is going to give them the shaft later on in life.
“Well I’m one of the few Asian women in his life who’ll actually love him unconditionally and abandon him over someone white. I should give him my all before he becomes an adult.”
“NOT abandon him” I mean
Women such as yourself said that AMs chasing after white women is wrong.
No, no, this is not what I am saying at all…I think that people–of all varieties–need to find happiness where they can. If this means that they can find no one who makes them happy within their , so be it. If no one does it for them outside their own race/social class/height/lifestyle, so be it. Sometimes there can be too much damage from one side or another and I personally support people finding love and companionship where ever they can. For myself, I choose Asian and am lucky enough to have found someone I really connect with. IMHO, we are all lucky to even have the luxury of discussing such things.
Individuals need what they need and love whom they love. We are most often satisfied by someone of our own race due to indicators like shared values, culture, language, etc. Those things tell us that we will be most likely to succeed with someone who is familiar. But sometimes it happens that people find what they need in someone outside that demographic. Who knows.
What I think is necessary is to see the reasons the disparity is there in the first place.
That book that James linked to looks pretty interesting.
@N–I think it’s a crock of sh*t, just like it is in the media, etc. And by the way, Jhumpa Lahiri is one of my favorite writers–I’m mad about her first two books and have yet to read the third.
@Masir–Believe me when I say that mama’s boys are not isolated to the Asian cultures. =P
@RiceCakeRabbit:
Good to hear that!
And I’ve got Namesake in my shopping cart, still pondering whether to get the short stories one as well…How does she handle short stories? (Short stories have always been hit and miss for me – and more misses than hits)
N–I liked it. I’ve never been one for anthologies of shorts either, but she did win the Pulitzer for that one…The stories are all so different from each other, and many rife with layers of symbolism I found extremely engaging. I’d be interested to know what you think of them!
Whoops, didn’t see N’s comment about Nemoto’s book…
@ Ei and TZ
You guys have a great dialogue going!
Whilst I agree 100% that marrying or dating out doesn’t automatically disqualify someone from being an advocate, I think that there are some specific situations where questioning credibility is valid and perhaps even necessary.
In the situation mentioned in bigWOWO’ s opening post there are two Asian women in committed relationships with white men, whilst similtaneously decrying orientalism, fetishism (and by implication) hyper-sexualization in the fashion industry in particular and presumably in mainstream culture in general. As Lingyai stated, Asian women are highly valued as partners and lovers. I maintain that one of the main (if not the main) reasons for this high valuation is due to orientalism, fetishism and hyper-sexualization.
What this means in real terms is that mainstream culture has created an environment where it’s more normal to visualize Asian women with white men than Asian women with Asian men. Through orientalism, fetishism and hyper-sexualization, Asian women are “normalized”, if you will, in mainstream culture more so than just about any other minority demographic. In other words, Asian women have been given a “place” in mainstream society, that is, they have an identity that is fully accepted by the mainstream as belonging to it. Now I’m not saying that Asian women who succeed in the mainstream (and I think it’s telling that compared to Asian men, there are far more who have) have not earned their success, but we have to acknowledge that the door of opportunity is framed with fetishism. That is, the framework of acceptance of Asian women is founded upon the value imparted to them by white men’s fetishism.
If Asian women do, in fact, benefit from fetishism, this gives them social value and hence social empowerment. With that in mind, credibility becomes an issue. But it’s not necessarily the credibility of the women that should be questioned but the credibility of the cause itself. What I’m confused about is exactly what these women actually want, and what it is that they are prepared to do to achieve their goal. If they are genuine about wanting to end fetishism, then surely they must completely reject it, which means rejecting the culture of fetishism that creates an environment where white men demand and expect Asian women to be with them. This in turn means rejecting white men on principle because it is the very framework of fetishism and orientalism that empowers white men to seek out Asian partners. If the extent of their activism is to simply rant about fetishism, then how serious a problem can it be? Does it even deserve to be given as much importance as anti-racism, or immigration activism in the dialogue?
The question of credibility is an important one because the philosophical basis of activism has to be epistemologically solid in order for the arguments to be persuasive, not only to those within the community but to the mainstream also. Let’s imagine a scenario where the two Asian women in the OP “have their day in court” and they have brought charges of fetishism against one of the fashion houses. In their testimony they have to prove that fetishism is ultimately bad for Asian women and for mainstream society. Yet, under cross-examination it’s revealed that they have white partners – a result of the general culture of acceptance stemming from fetishism. Given that fetishism benefits the mainstream and Asian women (by giving them a high value and a potential doorway to opportunity), the credibility of their contention that fetishism is a bad thing comes under serious doubt. Do the negatives of fetishism outweigh the benefits? How? Why? Is the epistemology solid enough to support the contention? Personally, I’m agnostic about it with a lean toward scepticism, but I’m open to persuasion.
Masir:
You know. Maybe this is why Asian moms baby their sons more than their daughters, because they know how society is going to give them the shaft later on in life.
Asian girls are dating out left, right, up, down, and inside out but at least my own mother loves me. What a consolation that is. Excuse me while I go curl up in a fetal position and suck on my thumb…
AF/AM Couple,
It’s nice to see you here! I don’t remember your original name on the 44s, but I do remember speaking with you.
Great discussion! I’ve been busy with family and other obligations, but I’ve been reading all the comments.
TZ,
I have a word or two to add about WuDunn and her sensitive, White liberal husband, and I hope to get that out in the next day or two. I think WuDunn is actually the perfect example of what we’ve been talking about.
Good grief there are so many points raised I don’t even know where to start.
@ MaSir:
I strive to speak up for the voiceless and defend the indefensible. If roles were reversed here, Ma Sir, I would stick up for you tooth and nail, especially if I think I might just know where you’re coming from and everybody else in the room is attacking you (while you’re not even present).
@ Kobukson:
Have I not acknowledged that the folks on this side of the fence have flaws too? Have I not acknowledged that more often than not, APA women pursue white men because they’ve internalized white male privilege and want to reap the benefits of that status via marriage or romantic association with one? Have I not acknowledged that if and when APA women do this, they are in the wrong? Even if a woman has had only negative APA male role models in her life, that experience, while it explains where she might be coming from, does not ever justify her for taking it out on other APA males, whom she has not had the opportunity to truly get to know yet.
===
I don’t think PUA or ranting and raving about it like madmen on a blog will be the catalyst for change you’re all looking for. I don’t know what that catalyst is, and if I did, I’d definitely join that bandwagon. But I do think a good place to begin is two-pronged: 1) media, which we’re slowly working on, via positive, well-rounded, or at least sexy APA male role models on TV (and YouTube; do not underestimate the amount of time youngins spend watching YouTube over TV these days); and 2) writing, academic and creative. Publish more pieces in sociology or law journals to at least get it on the radar of those in the ivory tower. Publish more literary fiction with the kind of APA male characters you want to see. There’s a start, you know.
Ben, I think most people here have thought as you are now thinking. And there is certainly some truth in most of what you say, but it is also possible to temper your conclusions based on consideration for the AF perspective.
“If Asian women do, in fact, benefit from fetishism, this gives them social value and hence social empowerment.”
The “benefits” of being fetishized must be measured against its liabilities. Men often don’t realize how creepy, sickening, exhausting, and demeaning, it can be to have people chasing you based on an idea of you that isn’t you. Many women neither enjoy nor appreciate this “false value” which is placed upon them. To be fetishized is not to be loved, and any success that comes from fetishism is not real, because it is not based on the real person, but on an inaccurate image imposed upon her. This is often not lost on the victims of fetishism. It’s NOT as peachy as it looks from the outside looking in.
“If they are genuine about wanting to end fetishism, then surely they must completely reject it… This in turn means rejecting white men on principle because it is the very framework of fetishism and orientalism that empowers white men to seek out Asian partners.”
So then, there is NEVER any circumstance in which an Asian woman and a White man can marry, because of the overall fetish climate. It doesn’t matter if the two people in question’s relationship is based on fetishism or not. It doesn’t matter how they met or that they are in love. Their love is forbidden! (or at least strongly discouraged)
That, my friend, is a hive mentality, in which the good of the state, or the country, or the culture, of the ethnicity, rule over the personal choices of individuals. The good of the many outweigh the choices of the individual. Ask yourself, is that what you really want?
Efsaneyim, glad to have you with us. You bring up interesting points.
In other words, Asian women have been given a “place” in mainstream society, that is, they have an identity that is fully accepted by the mainstream as belonging to it. Now I’m not saying that Asian women who succeed in the mainstream (and I think it’s telling that compared to Asian men, there are far more who have) have not earned their success, but we have to acknowledge that the door of opportunity is framed with fetishism.
That’s the problem. Asian women are aware that a good chunk of their success, from romance to professional advancement, is likely due to Asian fetish, with white male hegemony calling the shots. Whereever one finds a disparity in AF versus AM representation, from IR to TV news anchorship, one must ask themselves: Who is in control here? Who stands to benefit from what? You follow the “money” like a good investigative journalists. Now the apologists would have you believe “it just happened” for all the normative reasons and that there are a gazillion other factors beside Asian fetish and white male hegemony. Bullshit. Because if that were really true for all cases, there wouldn’t be such a glaring disparity in the first place. Occam’s Razor states that the most simplest and self-evident explanation is the one most likely to be true.
What I’m confused about is exactly what these women actually want, and what it is that they are prepared to do to achieve their goal. If they are genuine about wanting to end fetishism, then surely they must completely reject it, which means rejecting the culture of fetishism that creates an environment where white men demand and expect Asian women to be with them. This in turn means rejecting white men on principle because it is the very framework of fetishism and orientalism that empowers white men to seek out Asian partners.
That’s the essential problem behind this cause. There are no principles based upon values, only self-seeking agenda. They want all the benefits that Asian fetish bestows but none of the shame and stigma that also comes along with it.
If they are genuine about wanting to end fetishism, then surely they must completely reject it, which means rejecting the culture of fetishism that creates an environment where white men demand and expect Asian women to be with them. This in turn means rejecting white men on principle
The very fact that they are married to white guys helps create more fetish seems utterly lost on these anti-fetish crusaders and their apologists. Imagine you’re a white guy and you come across one of these crusaders. It’s a big joke. They hear a bunch of feminist mumbo-jumbo about Asian fetish but the mere fact that all of these uppity grrls are STILL married to white guys reassures them that it’s all “bark but no bite”.
The question of credibility is an important one because the philosophical basis of activism has to be epistemologically solid in order for the arguments to be persuasive, not only to those within the community but to the mainstream also.
Again, it is not epistemologically solid because there are no principles behind it. It’s a flimsy house of cards built on sand.
My own personal theory is that it is a kind of a coping mechanism to deal with an internal crisis of confidence. They are trying to convince themselves that none of their advantages were due to Asian fetish.
Where does the average Asian-American dude fit in all of this? Very little or none.
The reality of Asian fetish is probably only a problem for those AFs who are a bit brighter than usual and have some degree of self-awareness. The vast majority are probably blissfully unaware of the fact that they’ve made a Faustian pact with white male privilege. Even if they were made aware, it is doubtful that they would have the wits to understand why it is an existential problem nor would they care.
I still think it’s a mistake to believe that all Asian women only benefit from being fetishized. I get that there are some who are blind to the larger implications, but there are also many who are annoyed and disturbed by it.
I might have written an article on this very topic and published in a law journal, hmm, can’t remember.
@King
I still think it’s a mistake to believe that all Asian women only benefit from being fetishized. I get that there are some who are blind to the larger implications, but there are also many who are annoyed and disturbed by it.
I don’t.
I’m sure its annoying and disturbing at times but they’re at least being sought out after for something. And what about Asian men?
Media?
Entertainment?
Dating?
Literature?
I rest my case. No permutations of “doing both” makes sense anymore. The numbers are statistically significant enough that warrant an undeniable trend. It does not happen by coincidence but subliminally driven motives influenced by external white-hegemonic factors which Asian women have succumb to. If you disagree, then as stated earlier, why aren’t there more Asian Female/Black Male couples? Why not Asian Female/Latino Male pairings?
There is no legitimate response because its the goddamn truth. You argue that “Asian women have more in common with white men on a socioeconomic level.” Well last time I checked, Asian men are the most financially well off so that throws this argument out the window.
Don’t you realize how absurd these “activists” sound and even the ones who defend them? Oh yes, its just so happens that all of my employees are white. I’m fighting against discrimination in corporate America, BUT that has nothing to do with the fact that every single one of my employees are white and I only hire white candidates.
Yes, this is how all of the so-called activists sound to us.
Don’t you realize how absurd these “activists” sound and even the ones who defend them? Oh yes, its just so happens that all of my employees are white. I’m fighting against discrimination in corporate America, BUT that has nothing to do with the fact that every single one of my employees are white and I only hire white candidates.
Yes, this is how all of the so-called activists sound to us.
Bingo! Hit the nail squarely on its head.
So then, there is NEVER any circumstance in which an Asian woman and a White man can marry, because of the overall fetish climate. It doesn’t matter if the two people in question’s relationship is based on fetishism or not. It doesn’t matter how they met or that they are in love. Their love is forbidden! (or at least strongly discouraged)
King, something’s getting lost in translation here. Let’s make things really simple then, shall we?
Do we all agree that an AF-AM activist couples are a rarity?
Do we agree that having more AF-AM activist couples would be a good thing?
Why do the apologists focus more on defending the rights of AF to be with WMs rather than something that we should all be able to agree upon, which is to call for more AM-AF activists and articulating its significance?
I’ll make this very clear: I couldn’t care less about all the mind-twisting, convoluted rationalizations why an AF activist with a white guy is still kosher. That is NOT my priority. It upsets me to no end that some people find it really necessary to devote their energies to one-sided peripheral agendas that need no further encouragement rather than to sorely neglected concerns that is truer to the spirit of Asian-American activism.
That, my friend, is a hive mentality, in which the good of the state, or the country, or the culture, of the ethnicity, rule over the personal choices of individuals. The good of the many outweigh the choices of the individual. Ask yourself, is that what you really want?
@MaSir & Kobukson
Well, to MaSir’s point, I agree that there is obviously a big problem with AF and WM being waaaaay over represented. I also agree that the reason for this, as most of you have stated, is prejudice. I’m just saying that what all of us can observe, as a statistical truth, cannot necessarily be applied to individual couples that are not known to us. It’s one thing to generalize on how a certain population is reacting, it’s another thing to try and apply that generalization to any one person (or couple) within that population.
The difference is that of predicting that water will boil at 212° (@sea level) and that of trying to predict the trajectory of a single H20 atom at 212°. What is applicable as a given property of a known substance is not predictive of each individual quantity of that substance.
Do we all agree that an AF-AM activist couples are a rarity?
Only if the AM stands for African-American. If not, the majority of Asian-American women marry Asian-American men.
“Do we agree that having more AF-AM activist couples would be a good thing?”
Yes, I completely agree. Please more!
I’m not arguing against your point. I’m not trying to say that the AF/WM couplings are always, or even mostly, fetish free. I’m just saying that not ALL of them are, and if you don’t know the individual case, then you can’t judge the individuals involved. That’s all.
I’m sure its annoying and disturbing at times but they’re at least being sought out after for something.
Please understand something. White fetishes for AFs is not, I repeat NOT anything to aspire to, be envious of, etc. It comes out of an idealized image of women from colonial periods when the West was “helping” war-torn Asian nations. It is a large contributing factor to violence against AA women.
Asian Female stereotype= Sexy, exotic, mysterious, erotic, submissive.
What this translates into in real life is (mostly) white men leering at you, saying rude and disgusting things.
It’s being approached in a club by (mostly) white men saying “Hey, I like oriental girls. They know how to treat their men right.”
It’s constantly being asked to say “Ooooh, me so Horny! Me Love you longtime!” by perfect strangers, over and over again.
It’s being propositioned.
It’s being dumped when they realize you’re not really submissive like they thought.
It’s being yelled at when listening to what comes out of your mouth is not as fun as the thought of putting something in it.
It’s being told by a S.O. that racism is all in your head.
It’s being raped because someone thinks you really want it since you’re “oriental and sexy.”
It’s constantly being hit on by older–much older–men. Like 40 years older.
It’s being taught that your only value in society is to be a beautiful little lotus blossom.
None of the above is a rarity for AFs.
Still sound like fun? Be our guest.
And no, the above is not all autobiographical.
Not sure if you guys checked out these statistics on hyphen re AAF:
http://www.hyphenmagazine.com/blog/archive/2010/05/study-finds-disturbing-std-rates-among-asian-americans
..a new debate-worthy topic?
King
I don’t really think I drew any conclusions in my post, although in the last paragraph conclusions were drawn by the judge/jury in my hypothetical “day in court” scenario.
I also haven’t claimed that fetishism is all peachy, if you re-read the post you’ll notice that I do allude to the positives and negatives of fetishism and that any assessment of it must balance the good against the bad. That was the point – the arguments against fetishism have to go beyond those one might find in a blog post rant because they have to convince the mainstream. Challenging fetishism means confronting the mainstream and in order to do that, there has to be good arguments that are based on a credible epistemology with a persuasive impact. In order to develope this epistemology we have to challenge one another’s contentions, even though it might be painful or ugly. Strong activism emerges naturally from a solid philosophical basis. A solid philosophical basis emerges naturally by challenging our own axioms of belief. The inquiry is everything.
Appeals to emotion are unconvincing; just because some guy makes you feel creepy or weird doesn’t mean that it’s his fault and it definitely doesn’t provide evidence for an Asian fetish. Fetishism is so intangible that proving that it causes suffering is extremely difficult. That’s why credibility is such an issue.
Who said that? Not me! I think you may have interpreted my post as an anti-IR rant when it was simply intended to be a heuristic. The questions I raised in my post are valid, difficult, but valid. If Asian women rejected white men completely then fetishism would end. Are Asian women willing to give up the choice of dating white men in order to end fetishism? It’s a philosophical question – not a desire on my part. Is the belief in the harm caused by fetishism strong enough to warrant this action? It really isn’t such an outlandish propostion. Suffragettes threw themselves under the King’s horse in the early 20th century because they really believed in their cause. Buddhist monks have set themselves on fire and people endure torture to uphold their cause.
@Rice,
Stop obfuscating the contention at hand. Its not about whether Asian fetishism is right or wrong. That is not our argument.
Its pretty obvious it’s the former. And yet, AF sleeping with WM only reinforces this preconceived notion which is in fact a WM establishment. Is it not? I sure as hell didn’t fund and produce a movie that had a Vietnamese woman saying, “Me so horny”. And if you didn’t already know, the whole thing about “…white men leering at you, saying rude and disgusting things” isn’t unique to just Asian females. Don’t flatter yourself by portraying Asian-American females as the lone victim of racial discrimination.
Have you ever had white guys coming up to you pulling their eyes back and running their mouths with racial epithets on a frequent basis when you were growing up? Have you ever cried to yourself inside wishing you could be white just for a day so you didn’t have to take the abuse and you could simply fit in? Have you had 40% of all the Asian guys you liked tell you that, “I only date white girls”, “I’m not attracted to Asian guys”, “I just don’t date Asian guys”?
If not, then I’d STFU because that’s what I grew up with majority of my life even living in the liberal state of California. So on top of getting shit on at school and having nobody to really run to for protection and moral support, you expect me and other Asian men who’ve undergone the same unfortunate experiences to just sit back and watch this all unfold with a big smile on our faces? How can you be so obtuse?
Read what I wrote one more time.
“Don’t you realize how absurd these “activists” sound and even the ones who defend them? Oh yes, its just so happens that all of my employees are white. I’m fighting against discrimination in corporate America, BUT that has nothing to do with the fact that every single one of my employees is white and I only hire white candidates.”
AA men neither had the influential clout nor the numbers to start such a stereotype. The source started with WM so you’re either part of the problem or your part of the solution. Those 2 are diametrically opposed to one another and nullify your entire cause which is already lost in the sea of contradictory abyss.
“White fetishes for AFs is not, I repeat NOT anything to aspire to, be envious of, etc. It comes out of an idealized image of women from colonial periods when the West was “helping” war-torn Asian nations. It is a large contributing factor to violence against AA women.”
My argument when I said, “…at least they’re being sought out for something” is not that I’m praising the stereotype. You cannot be that naive, but I could be wrong. Finally, to set the record straight for the last time, Asian men aren’t condoning fetishization of Asian women. We are on your side. We’re not on the side of women who will go around saying how they’re so proud to be Asian and despise fetish stereotypes while going around touting how they date “white-men only”.
*NOT the former
@ MaSir:
Wow. Serious? You’re going to go after Rabbit like that? Like hell you will.
“Have you ever had white guys coming up to you pulling their eyes back and running their mouths with racial epithets on a frequent basis when you were growing up?”
Yes. I dumped a bucket of yellow paint on his head and screamed at him, “Yeah? Yeah? Who’s yellow now, huh?” I know, mature. But I was 13.
“Have you ever cried to yourself inside wishing you could be white just for a day so you didn’t have to take the abuse and you could simply fit in?”
Personally, no, but that’s because there were always a few marbles missing in my head. My two little sisters have. Young girls I know have. Young impressionable Asian girls have come to me crying, presenting that dilemma, and I’ve had to navigate them through it. So please don’t think this is exclusively a male issue. Nor is it an Asian male issue. Young boys of Middle Eastern descent in the U.S. are going through a hell of a time right now.
“Have you had 40% of all the Asian guys you liked tell you that, “I only date white girls”, “I’m not attracted to Asian guys”, “I just don’t date Asian guys”?”
We’ve been through this already. YES!
“My argument when I said, “…at least they’re being sought out for something” is not that I’m praising the stereotype. You cannot be that naive, but I could be wrong.”
Hmm, call me naive too then, because when I read that, I too thought it sounded a lot like envy.
“We are on your side.”
Sure sounds like you are.
@TZ,
So what is your position?
Well, I was asking you some questions, Ben.
They were real questions, not necessarily accusations.
Also, I was attempting to speak generally.
“Appeals to emotion are unconvincing; just because some guy makes you feel creepy or weird doesn’t mean that it’s his fault and it definitely doesn’t provide evidence for an Asian fetish.”
I’m not sure that was my point. All I was saying is that being fetishized is not necessarily pleasant. I think guys often think that attention, of any kind, is better than no attention at all, and that isn’t always true, especially for women.
“If Asian women rejected white men completely then fetishism would end.”
Actually, that’s not really true. You can fetishize a person whether or not they give their consent. I can fetishize a woman and even pester her, wether or not she participates. To think otherwise is to blame the victim for things outside of their direct control.
“Are Asian women willing to give up the choice of dating white men in order to end fetishism?”
Again, since a fetish is not, ipso facto, the fault of the person who is fetishized, I don’t think that Asian woman can single handedly stop the fetish. I believe that it will take a combination of several things to lessen the fetish.
My position is that you unreasonably went after Rabbit.
You know what. I’m tired of arguing with you. I surrender. I’ll accept defeat and say its okay for Asian-American female activists to go around hopping on white guys all day while fighting fetishism with a fervent passion. I’m not going to belabor the point any further. It is a waste of my time and energy and why should I try to convince you as much as you’re trying to convince me. We agree to disagree.
You want to call me envious? Yes, that sinful seed is buried deep within me. Thank you for pointing that out to every reader of this blog. So now that you have, what was your goal of calling out my envy? Just to prove to everyone on this site that I’m a bitter, grumpy Asian guy? Well obviously you accomplished you intended if that’s indeed what it was.
I know there are women out there who support an Asian-American community including the position that Kobukson, Urb4n and many others hold such as myself. There are Asian-American women out there who support the plight of Asian-American males as much as we support them in denouncing fetishists and that’s all that matters at this point.
I’m tapping out and saying peace to you all. TZ wins by submission.
TZ, I really do wish women would understand more how certain things can be a huge distraction for AMs. When one’s emotional hot-button has been pushed (again, for the upteenth time), it’s extremely difficult to remain completely objective. We’re not models of perfection but highly flawed and damaged creatures. That’s something we need to work on. We know that already. AMs don’t enjoy being angry anymore than you enjoy a discussion that feels like a witch-hunt. This anger ultimately hurts no one else except just us. This is one of the reasons why we desperately need AF-AM activists representing not just AFs or AMs but ALL of us. I wish I could say that most of us are magnanimous enough to overlook the fact a Sheryl WuDunn is with a white guy and just focus on the merits of her message alone. That’s a lot easier said than done. We really don’t get a whole lot of positivity regarding AF’s IR in our own personal experiences. We know deep down that freely giving the benefit of the doubt (which is the very definition of Grace) is the right thing to do but its also an enormous leap of faith that many do not have the courage or fortitude to do. Not all of us are there. This kind of thing could easily take half a lifetime to even realize, let alone achieve. Behind every angry, bitter Asian guy is a scared boy who is afraid to do just that. Because to take that leap of faith means one has to make oneself extremely vulnerable and prior experience has conditioned us to think that AFs consider AMs to be carelessly expendable and easily replaceable by a white guy. When one’s confidence and love for others has been sapped completely dry by the IR disparity and then for someone who has not known what that feels like to ask guys who are running on empty tanks to display love, forbearance and to the very cause of the hurt feels like insult upon injury. It’s a bit much. You’re asking for a Gandhi-like level of sainthood that most likely doesn’t exist in the average AM, or any person, male or female, for that matter. This is a tragic consequence of a Pandora’s Box that has been forever flung wide open to let out its wild, evil machinations and can never be shut back. Please for God’s sake, try to understand this. I feel like I’m practically begging.
And now a message to my brethren,
Ultimately, the anger and bitterness only destroys you and you alone. I know that many of you are not religious but please bear with me. Yesterday, I was having a discussion during dinner about hell with a mature woman friend. Now I know why the bible describes hell as a fiery place. Those of you who have intimate acquaintance with the darkness known as the Iago Syndrome know this hell. It is a fire that consumes you as you weep and gnash your teeth.
The reason, however, I was talking to her about hell and fire was because the church that we both belong to places a strong emphasis on street evangelism. She told me that sometimes she tells people that if they don’t believe in God and accept Jesus Christ they will burn forever in hell. I tried to explain to her that the bible is filled with symbolic metaphorical language to describe spiritual concepts that are beyond our normal experience and that phrases such as “lake of fire” is about as literal as Jesus saying “eat my flesh and drink my blood” (communion). She didn’t get it. I tried a different tactic. I said to her that we shouldn’t drive people to God out of fear of hell and damnation but persuade them to be drawn to God out of their own free will because of the attractive power of love and glory of God. Just as a man doesn’t want a woman to be with him out of fear of some retribution but because she wants to be with him because she loves him. Then she understood completely and the fog in her mind cleared. She confessed that she emphasized hell in her evangelism because it seemed to work for her in the past. But my using the analogy of love between a man and a woman touched her own emotional center as a woman. She understood and she also understood my other previous point that we shouldn’t misrepresent God through faulty interpretation of scripture.
When we use anger, fear, and shame on AFs in our IR disparity discussions, it is like my friend threatening hellfire to scare people into the church. It works only on some but it largely repels people away even further, especially the more intelligent and critical thinkers. What has been sorely neglected is winning hearts and minds by demonstrating the attraction and glory of having a strong Asian-American community through unconditional love, which works unforeseen miracles and mysteries. Love wins over both the smart and not so smart alike. Paul said that I may have all the knowledge in the world but without love we are like clanging gongs and clashing cymbals. The current state of IR disparity debates sound like discordant, cacophonous noise precisely because of the lack of love for each other. Love means to treat each other as you would want them to treat you. Try as mightily as you can what it must feel like to be an ever patient and supportive AF like TZ , Rabbit, and AF/AM couple who are on the shit end of the hundred pound clue-bat being flung wildly about by you, like some loose cannon. Let us practice this thing called “unconditional love” for their sakes if nothing else. We’re preaching to the choir with that; it’s completely unnecessary. We’ve debated the cause and effect of the IR disparity ad nauseum. We should have realized the utter futility of this discussion a long time ago. By devoting our energies to branding our sisters indiscriminately with the Scarlett Letter of the IR disparity, we’ve neglected the very thing that matters the most, which is to reach across the gender divide with faith, courage, and hope like Real Men, asking them politely to help right our badly listing ship and build our Asian-American community. Yeah, it doesn’t look like much sometimes and we even wonder if it even exists at all. Let us build it ex nihilo through the wonders and miracles of forgiveness, forbearance, and conditional love.
Sorry. UNCONDITIONAL love. See? i told ya I’m not perfect.
I always thought there’s a very simple (but very impractical) solution to the fetish problem. If all (and I mean ALL) AFs tells their WM potential lovers that there will be no intimacy for first year of dating (or before marriage which ever comes first) and actually act on it, the problem will disappear in a few years. And if it’s true eternal love, I’m sure the WMs will happily take up the offer.
Then again, another propostion I put to eliminating cheating husbands was to castrate all men that gets intimate with a women that’s not his wife. That way, there will be no more Tiger woods type problems in the future.
What do you guys and girls think. Can we sign up on both these bills?
You guys have an opportunity here on this site.
There is potential here, and a big part of this potential is the fact that both Asian guys and Asian girls come here to discuss issues. The women of Wowo: Mama Nabi, Rice Cake Rabbit, TZ, AF/AM couple, and many others are all smart women, and they all get it. They are married to, or are dating, Asian guys—they understand the problem of the IR disparity, they listen to you, they have your back.
But they are not going to agree with you on every single point all of the time. Can you live with that? Because that’s what determines the future of this site. This can become an important place for AA activism, a nexus where AMs and AFs can meet and dialogue, but only if both sides are willing to accept alternate points of view.
The ladies will have to be patient, because the guys are venting a lot of their issues and there will be many times when it will get repetitive and cyclical. But just remember, that this may be the only place that some of these guys can talk about this stuff, and it’s like uncorking a bottle.
The guys are going to have to value ladies who come here and support them. Don’t treat them like the enemy because of their gender. These are the women who get it! Give them credit for being here, for listening, and for participating. Value them and even learn from them the female perspective on these issues.
THAT is how you build a COMMUNITY
Kobukson,
Good thoughts! I want to respond/add to what you said, but I’m under loads of pressure this week. Hopefully I’ll get around to it. I also had something to say about WuDunn.
N,
I don’t think I can name five books where Asian men get the girl, but there are at least a few.
1. Check out 1001 Cranes by Naomi Hirahara. I don’t want to give away too much, but it’s friendly to your cause. At least I think so. Check it out. I wrote it up here:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/07/1001-cranes-by-naomi-hirahara-review/
2. Free Sex for Rice Chasers…I mean, Free Food for Millionaires. It’s bit of a bait-and-switch and I felt cheated at the end, but it meets the technical guidelines. Despite my feelings, I still recommend it. I wrote it up here:
http://newexcursion.blogspot.com/2008/04/free-sex-for-rice-chasers-review-of-min.html
3. I’m not sure, but I think some of Yiyun Li’s books might fit your guidelines.
Well stated, kobukson. My unfit genes give you mad props.
Um, I haven’t read every single post since my last one, but I’ll just add my two cents like everyone else
For me, this whole IR disparity is similar to an analogy I’m about to make, and in doing so, I hope not a lot of people try to pick it apart.
I’m Filipino-American, and consider myself Asian-American. In mainstream media, every time there’s an “Asian” portrayed, it’s always of East Asian descent (i.e. Chinese, Japanese, Korean), or at least, the stereotypes that are attributed to them (i.e. rail thin, porcelain white skin, etc.). Of course, there’s an exception, as more and more Indian faces are gracing mainstream media, but they don’t represent “Asian” and seem to stand alone as their own demographic.
Personally, I’m tired of these mainstream portrayals of “Asian.” Why can’t one of them look like me for a change? There are tons of AAs who look like me, but where’s my representation?
I don’t deny that East-Asian-looking Asians exist, and can be great representatives for all things “Asian.” What I am frustrated about is that they’re the only ones given the spotlight.
Consequently, my anger and disappointment is not at these East-Asian role models, it’s at mainstream society that chooses to reward those who fit the stereotype.
If an AF activist is part of an IR and doesn’t seem to hate on AMs, then I have no issue with them. They’re just fighting the good fight in whatever role they can. It’s the larger system of white privilege that intentionally skews the balance of AAs remotely achieving success in the mainstream world into one mold, instead of equal representation.
In an ideal world, this AF activist who’s part of an IR would be equal partners with AMs and other AFs in non-IRs. AMs and AFs wouldn’t be in battle with each other to see who can get legitimacy.
Like I said, for me, I get over this by creating my own circle of family and friends where I’m legitimized and valued. Also, now that I’m older and have more income, I use my wallet to voice my opinion. That may not bring our racist patriarchal system to its knees, but it makes a difference in my immediate reality.
Well, I don’t know if this makes you feel any better but I consider pinays to be part of the Greater East Asian-American Co-Prosperity Sphere.
Just kidding.
I think Byron deliberately posts about IR to generate more blog hits whenever his traffic is down. 200 plus comments has got to be close to a record for BigWowo. Well played.
Seriously though, the IR issue is something that has plagued AM/AF gender relations literally for decades. So it’s important to keep in mind what’s been said in the past to avoid reinventing the wheel.
Here’s a link that address some of the debates people have been having about Asian American activism and IR in particular:
Inter-racial Dating by Asian-Americans
http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2007/07/18/inter-racial-dating-by-asian-americans/
And to deal with the IR problem in general, one has to address the root cause.
Frank Chin made an important point a long time ago, when he said that the high outmarriage rates among Asian Americans were a *symptom* of a deeper problem: the lack of a developed Asian American community, culture, or sense of identity. As he put it, Asian Americans are:
“a people who failed to generate an identity and culture attractive and compulsive enough to make our people attractive to each other and survive as a people and grow as a culture.”
Issues of racist stereotypes, emasculation, and fetish are part of the equation, but the lack of an Asian American cultural identity is a critically related cause of the IR problem that hasn’t gotten nearly enough attention.
Some Asian Americans of both genders marry White people because–save for their physical appearance–they are effectively White (or honorary White) in everything but name.
And some Asian women won’t date Asian guys because they buy into the (White) stereotype of the emasculated Asian male and accept White standards of beauty and attractiveness.
As Chin said, you get a situation in which Asian Americans live in a state of “self-contempt” in which they implicitly or explicitly embrace the idea that White is Right–even though they can never really measure up to this “ideal” given their Asianness.
That’s racist love in a nutshell.
http://chintalks.blogspot.com/2008/08/racist-love.html
And echoing what other people have said above, the way to combat this situation is of course to create a community that promotes an alternative set of values and rules of attraction.
@ jaehwan:
I read the review for Free S..Food for Millionaires and literally heard my heart slapped in two. I opened my heart and my wallet to try to show some love and this is what I get? Ouch.
I will get 1001 Cranes though, I’m a sucker for these family growing of age types (Well, one that doesn’t have an Asian abusive father).
I looked at Yiyun Li at your recommendation, but her novels are based in Cultural Revolution China, which I don’t really care about…I want Asian American stories!
D*mn those evil book publishers.
AF/AM couple:
That’s a really interesting perspective. Never really occurred to me that flipinos didn’t fit into the mainstreams’s perception of what ‘Asians’ are, never really noticed that before, thanks for pointing it out. It’s funny that the term ‘Asian’ would mean almost exclusively South Asians in the UK.
The AF-WM thing for me is just a trust issue. We’ve seen way too many bad examples in the AFs in those situations that we’re automatically in defence mode (see my very brief summary or read p.77-80 in the Nemoto book that James pointed out). If they could provide evidence that they care about the Asian American men issues (which I assume a number of them do), then I’m absolutely sure that they will be accepted without problems.
I have to admit that we give our trust to the AFs in AF/AM more easily, in fact, too easily. But can anyone really blame us? They went through the early days of childhood and pre-teens where every prince in shiny armour is a white dude, every heroic dad is a white dad. They go through the teens and college lives where every pin-up is a white dude, every romantic lead is a white guy and every sappy love song is sang by a white man.
In the meanwhile AF/AM relationships is discriminated in the media to the point where the media pretend there don’t exist (Hollywood/TV/Magazines), or that it only occurs for FOBs (Lost!) and that it’s much trendier and cool to date a white dude (Every Hollywood movie with an Asian american female character in it, I-PHONE Ads, everywhere, really.) And we don’t have to go into detail about how Asian American men are protrayed, right?
So despite all this, despite all the subconscious white-washing that they have been facing since they were a child or the moment they came out of their mother’s womb, they still have the resolve to find an asian american man to be attractive enough (but we’re too short, our eyes are too small, we’re not cool) and gentle enough (we’re all sexist wife-bashers, just like their FOB dads!) to be romantic candidates and possible life partners. So let us salute their intelligence (of seeing past the whitewashing), their mental strength (for putting up with damaged souls that are typical of Asian American men), their beauty (which is indisputable) and their bravery (of being called not trendy)!
Of course, AF/WM is normal (5% x 80% = 4%), but AF/AM are special! (5% x 5% = 0.25%!!)
And it’s AF/AM and not AM/AF because we ALL know who wears the pants in those relationships. lol
Wow, so many good arguments. I’m too busy to address them but this really is an awesome discussion. Some quick comments:
I think it’s a mistake to assume that AF benefit too much from the fetishism. Seriously, the AF/WM thing has gotten to the point of cliche, and has become another weapon of sexism. I’ve met some non-AA women and many men who have very little respect for our sisters because this trend is so prevalent. It undermines all of us, and I wonder if the majority of AF are even aware of that.
On the other hand, human beings are social creatures, and acceptance and desirability play huge roles on our emotional development. Being desirable is a huge boost to one’s ego and his/her outlook toward life as anyone in relationships can attest. I admit, I do envy AF a bit. A man lost in a desert will have a different opinion about water compared to a women who’s drowning in a flood.
On that note, AF/AM brought up a good point about how our environment shapes us. I was lucky enough to grow up within a group of AA friends who were fiercely proud and even a bit racist at times. Looking back now, it was a bit ridiculous, but at the same time we never let anyone of us feel sorry for being Asian. It wasn’t until after college that I realized how important those friends were in preparing me for the “real world”. In a way, it fortified my “immune system” against racism. I can’t imagine what it’s like for those AA growing up without such a support network. That should be what our community is for, but it’s just not there right now. We’re not there for our brothers and sisters, and it saddens me.
King- excellent point! I do know there are many AF out there who gets us. But this is a very emotional issue, and I can understand them not wanting speak out and deal with the fallout. MaSir posted an article from one of these AF (very much like the ones I grew up with) that was written in 2008, and two years later it’s STILL getting comments, now over 1000 and counting. Who the hell has time to keep up with all that? But to those AF out there, and especially the ones posting on this blog, I LOVE you gals. And I marvel at your patience.
As some of you guys get older, and transition into your 30s, some of the friends who you see marrying today are going to end up getting divorced. For most people, this is a life -changing experience. But in the aftermath, they must either learn to create new lives for themselves, or else they will wallow in the broken shell of the old one.
How they recover has very little to do with what’s right or just, but it has everything to do with adopting certain convictions. Even if it turns out that your wife was sleeping with your best friend, and then emptied your bank account, and then made it look like you where the one who was having the affair, the same formula for recovery applies. You must LET IT GO… not for her sake but for yours. You have to put it behind you, close the door on it, and walk into your future as a free man. But that’s not easy to do.
The guys who never recover just can’t stop thinking about how they’ve been wronged. They keep ripping the scabs off of the same old wounds. It haunts them, and the need to get even or show her up, or expunge your name of all guilt become paramount. It’s SO unfair! All of this is quite understandable, even normal, but unfortunately, it will kill you, in the end. You will never be happy like that, and nobody will ever be happy around you. You will transform yourself into a bitter, sour, and angry, man and you will suck in the surrounding negativity like a black hole.
This is exactly the problem when dealing with the dreaded IR disparity. As long as you are out counting AF/WM couples on the street, as long as you looking up every AF celebrity, in order to apply the “Asian spouse litmus test,” you are going to be angry, and sad, and broken. And those things do not attract either lovers of friends.
So, in spite of the terrible unfairness of it all, the best course, for your own sanity, and your own future, is to take Kobukson’s advice and make an unconditional peace with it. Once you do, you’ll see that a lot more good things will come your way.
King
I’ve been referring to fetishism propagated by institutions. Personal fetishism isn’t really the issue I’m addressing. Although some personal fetishism can be extremely bad, the existence or practice of fetishism isn’t intrinsically bad. Institutional fetishism (like other forms of institutional stereotyping) on the other hand could arguably be considered intrinsically negative. It’s in the area of institutional fetshism where I think the activism may be flimsy and lack credibility.
In my original post I allude to the idea that the dialogue on fetishism has to expand beyond the echo chamber of the Asian blogosphere if it is to be recognized as a genuine issue to unite behind. In the relative safety of the Asian blogosphere, it’s easy to shout down people who question one’s contentions or ask awkward questions, and in this kind of environment it’s easy for any and all arguments to sound really good. Yet in the real world the questions that I’ve posed are the kinds that institutions that propagate fetishism will ask – only theirs will be, perhaps, ten times more obnoxious. Why? Because if you accuse an institution of propagating an idea that causes harm then you have the potential to cause that institution some major damage. So, you’d better have good arguments and a credible position.
The strongest argument against instsitutional fetishism is withdrawal. Don’t play the game – who can argue with that? As I discussed earlier, the high value of Asian women in this society can be traced in large part to orientalism and fetishism. The door of opportunity is fetishism. Many women walk through this door and accept the benefits of the opportunity. To any institution facing a charge of propagating fetishism these facts are weaknesses in the case. My inquiry is simple; what is the response to this?
So far, I don’t think there has been one. An important part of building community is to challenge one another’s beliefs and contentions so that they become streamlined and powerful. This helps individuals within that community to become more empowered because it gives them a solid epistemological basis to help them to understand and struggle through whatever life situations they are in. If this subject is to be taken seriously then it has to have a serious response to the genuine problems I’ve raised.
“I’ve been referring to fetishism propagated by institutions. “
Ben, can you give an example? Fetish and it’s propagating institution?
@King
But if we nothing to about it, is the problem simply going to away?
To be honest, I’m more worried about the extinction of the AF/AM couples as oppose to the number of AF/WM.
For example, have you had time to read p.77-80 of Nemoto’s book? The AF in the interview had loving, hardworking parents, has a good education and still proceed to become an AF that stereotypes Asian American Men (and obviously never dates them). Should we see that as an exception, or do we have to bite the bullet and accept it’s a norm?
N., You can still be aware of the problems, you can still support the cause without allowing yourself to become overwhelmed by past (or even current) injustices.
For example, I can support the NAACP, or the United Negro College fund. I can even form my own political action organization. All of that is assumably “doing something” for Black people.
But on a personal level, it doesn’t do me any good to constantly rehash every wrong than was done to Blacks as if it was done to me personally last week. It does me no good to go over to stormfront and constantly read all the racist remarks. And it does more harm than good for me to dwell on every poll, every statistic, and survey, that shows Black people in a bad light.
I can take action without taking things so personally. That’s what I’m saying. One thing leads to action and progress, the other leads to bitterness and bad feelings.
I always thought there’s a very simple (but very impractical) solution to the fetish problem. If all (and I mean ALL) AFs tells their WM potential lovers that there will be no intimacy for first year of dating (or before marriage which ever comes first) and actually act on it, the problem will disappear in a few years. And if it’s true eternal love, I’m sure the WMs will happily take up the offer.
I’ve always thought there’s a simple solution to the fetish problem. During my PUA studies and from observations made in my personal life, I discovered that all women outside of marital bond are fair game. Just because a girl is already in a relationship doesn’t mean a damn thing. See an Asian girl that strikes your fancy but she’s with a white guy? Find yourself thinking that the world would be a better place if she were with you rather than him? Go up to her and smile, chat, flirt with her as if he doesn’t even exist. It is your job to “stress-test” this relationship to see what its made of. Because, believe me brothers, if it was the other way around, if you were walking around in the streets or in a club with an attractive white girl, that’s exactly what white guys would be doing to you. If you encounter an Asian girl who gives off that “I don’t date Asian guys” vibe, it is your frigging duty to go up to her and expand her narrow definition of the kind of guys she’s attracted to. If you see an Asian girl who doesn’t strike your fancy and she’s with a white guy? You walk up to brother, pat him on the shoulder, and say “You take good care of this sister now…ya hear?”
I’m a bit older so I like to toy with white guys married to Asians. In my building, there is a white dude married to a Filipina. He’s a rather easy target because he seems so whipped and it is obvious who’s in charge of this relationship and it sure ain’t him. I’m entering the building back from a camping trip, carrying my gear, and I see these two walking in at the same time. The dude’s following her carrying a big load of laundry. I approach him, point at the evidence of his domesticated emasculation, and state in a wry, ironic tone: “Hey. What’s all this crap?” He mumbles something inaudible and looks down. The girl, on the other hand…she just absolutely loves it.
Is the playing field stacked against us? Many times it does look and feel that way. But we don’t have to take things lying down either. We can still show the world that Asian men have cojones.
Always remember that relations between men and women is fundamentally a power struggle. While we have the strength of our minds, our wits, courage and appeal to truth and moral sanction on our side, the only thing that a woman has to control men is her body.
…the only thing that a woman has to control men is her body.
lol! And that’s usually more than enough.
@King (or anyone else interested)
I managed to find a “free” copy of “Racing Romance” online.
http://ebook30.com/personality/social-sciences/250838/racing-romance-love-power-and-desire-among-asian-american-white-couples.html
If you go to the site, it gives you several mirror sites from which to download. I selected the first: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=X742IKK5 and it worked (without having to register). The pdf file should be 0813545323.pdf
Anyways, might be worth checking out!
@ kobuksan and king
That’s pathetic.
King
Ben, can you give an example? Fetish and it’s propagating institution?
Well, the media propagates fetishism, the music industry has sporadic but often influential references to Asian women’s sexuality, the advertising industry promotes Asian women as the normalised partners to white men, Asian fetishism can be found in literature and the film industry. These are all powerful institutions that have and do play off and propagate the idea of Asian women’s hyper-sexuality, and submissiveness.
@ Mo Bettah
Yes, we know
Rice Cake,
Instead of doing an open post, did you want to just write a post and send it to me? This way you could start the conversation. TZ could do the same. We could maybe post it next week…
@kobukson
Heh, I only meant it as a joke because things were going a bit too serious back then. (but it COULD work, right? lol)
@Ben
Sure, it might benefit the likes of Bai Ling or Tila Tequila in getting jobs that their talent doesn’t deserve. But at the same time, it also tends to delute the roles that Asian American actresses gets to play. And it certainly troubles everyday women, especially those Asian American women that are not attracted to white dudes (They exist too, right?).
I think RicecakeRabbit’s post was a really good one and I think it’s definitely an issue that but AM and AF can work together on.
One of the AF ‘issues’ that I never get is the “Human rights of Women in China” thing. How is that an Asian American issue??? It’s a foreign issue!!! How about women in other asian countries? For example in Thailand where there’s a ridculous amount of girls exploited every single minute?? It’s a massive, massive topic that should be discussed in an international context, rather than in the Asian american context.
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James and Larry,
Sincere apologies for the moderation of your comments. We just switched hosts, and it wasn’t set up to e-mial me when comments get moderated. It’s been fixed. Everyone, please see their comments above. Links below:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/08/building-subcultures-and-accepting-emotions/#comment-5969
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/08/building-subcultures-and-accepting-emotions/#comment-5956
B.
@TZ
I saw the WuDunn talk as well. She came off very abrasive. The fact that she married a white guy made the talk less convincing. I can’t deny it. The issue here about Asian women with White men talking about how sexist Chinese or Asian society is a little too convenience for white men to push their “white knight” meme. The skepticism comes when I don’t know if she truly cares or she is another lackey of white supremacy to civilize non-white savages (think Michelle Malkin and all the other AF with WM bashing AM and Asian society). This feeling is rooted in the current disparity in interracial marriage, the emasculation of AM, the exotification of AF, and the dehumanization of Asian people in Western society.
The fact that she is addressing a white audience, as if to say “you white people need to save this people, because they can’t do it themselves”, made the talk even less convincing of her motive.
You can’t fault AM for feeling this way, after the history of Western colonialism in Asia, and being treated as second class citizen by white in their own country.
If Obama married white woman, do you think black women and black society feel the same way about him. I doubt it.
I’ve been busy for the last week or so and have caught up on all the wide ranging arguments. What stands out for me is the varied experiences, the various rationales for behavior expressed here.
I still see an estrangement from one another. That others are trying to build a community here, and I applaud that, still tends to confirm for me my thought that there never really was an AA community for us to hold onto. Essentially, we’re fragmented, and all these factors come into play for us AM’s and AF’s to talk past each other. We’re not coming from the same place because everyone’s experience, while similar in some regards, is different.
I do know that it’s very difficult to change anyone from who they essentially are. You cannot control them; the only thing you can control is your response to them. And I don’t waste my time on women who wouldn’t waste their time on me. If there’s no reciprocity, no two-way street, then why bother? It doesn’t mean I have to like certain social dynamics—trust me, I don’t. But I also don’t get viscerally upset unless someone really pushes the right buttons. I see it for what it is and I move along. Is it a little tinged with envy and a little anger? Sure, of course.
But just last week, I was in a bar here in DC, blowing off steam with a co-worker and saw some interesting things. There was a really pretty blonde who came in and sat at the bar by herself. My co-worker and I noticed her and I thought about going over to say hi. Anyway, we got into our drinks and our discussion about work but I kept looking down the bar and checking on the blonde. About 10 minutes later, her date showed up—a tall Asian guy. He wasn’t any GQ model type or anything, but I thought to myself, “Hey, all right! Right on, bro’…” It’s good to see that representation.
As the evening went on, another cute white girl kept coming up to the bar, right next to me, to order up drinks. I took the opportunity to say hi to her and ask her what she was drinking and chat and joking with her every time she came back. it looked like she was with her boyfriend and another girl friend of hers and they were seated at a table behind us.
Then later on, I see an AM/AF couple walk in…and THAT was good to see as well. They had a few drinks and played some video games. And by the end of the night, the woman sitting behind me was leaving with her friends and she stopped to say goodnight to ME and said it was nice talking to me. By this time, I was already hammered and I lost beer control and didn’t follow up on anything. That was the time to have asked her what her name was, if she was going to be here for happy hour next week with her boyfriend, oh, that isn’t your boyfriend? well, let’s meet up tomorrow for drinks sometime, what’s your number, blah blah blah….
DC is pretty diverse but it can be segregated at times too and I find myself mostly hanging out with a mostly white crowd, a few black couples, some hispanics. But it makes me wonder a lot about putting oneself in a place where one can succeed. Or be socially relaxed and not so damn conscious about being inside your own Asian skin. And could it be that some women are interested in the force of your personality and couldn’t care whether you’re an Asian guy or not? Just something to think about.
So after this long discussion in this thread, I pose to the ladies and gentlmen: what have we learned here? What did people take away, if anything, from a discussion like this?
I’ve thought for a while before replying here. It’s taken me a while to collect my thoughts on things. Yes, I’m angry. I’m angry with the intentionally disrespectful tone MaSir took. That’s what his goal was and he got what he was looking for in that. I’m not angry at his points, mind you, just the unwarranted disrespect.
I wondered if my replying would be just a return of the same childish, back and forth, flaming and name calling. I’ve come to the conclusion that it won’t be. It is part of my responsibility as an AA to help my community form some boundaries. I really am tired of the nonsense, but as all parents and teachers know—sometimes you have to be the heavy. I recognize there are many who already have those boundaries intact, so my apologies to you all…
As has been said for decades, there is not a cohesive AA community–so here is a contribution to that aimed at MaSir Jones and all our \little brothers\ who are angry in the form of tough love and guidance.
I’ll start off by saying, we hear you. I have said this before and I will say it again. I hear you. Me, TZ, MN, AF/AM, Leon, King, Kobukson, Larry, we all hear your anger, frustration, hurt. And I will say again, I support you as an AM.
But people need to be straightened out when they behave inappropriately, and yes, dear, that’s just what you have done. The manner in which you responded to me was as irresponsible as it was disrespectful. Is this really the kind of stuff you want the community to spin its wheels on? Where does that get anyone?
\I still think it’s a mistake to believe that all Asian women only benefit from being fetishized. I get that there are some who are blind to the larger implications, but there are also many who are annoyed and disturbed by it.\
I don’t.
I’m sure its annoying and disturbing at times but they’re at least being sought out after for something. And what about Asian men?
Sounds plainly like envy to me.
Perhaps you misunderstood my response as being akin to one-upmanship. It was not. I made no comparison between men and women whatsoever, most certainly do not consider it “flattering” to be a victim of racial profiling and have no idea where anyone could have gotten the idea that I think AF are its lone victims… I was explaining why the \position\–pun intended—of Asian Women is not to be envied and quoted only that section of your previous response. (I sense that there may be widespread misunderstanding on this topic, but that is another thread entirely.)
The vehemence of your response towards me is displacement for things which are totally unrelated to me. I have done nothing to warrant that kind of treatment from you or any other on this board. I have personally responded to your posts in particular with resounding support. You jumped all over my ass and down my throat with things that make no sense at all. Honestly, you seem nearly blinded with rage and I am truly sorry for the toxic socio-political environment that has converged upon you as an AM. But you still had a choice. And you made a bad one. Your response was obviously not intended to clarify a possibly cloudy point–it was to flame and humiliate and take your aggressions out on me.
Well, little brother, we al know that sometimes emotions will get the best of us.
But that’s just not acceptable behavior.
For shame.
That kind of behavior is inappropriate and unacceptable and you are certainly old enough to know better. You have been given nothing but support from me, and with this response I continue to support you as an AM by telling you how it is: That’s not how adults speak to people who are genuinely trying to communicate, and moreover, that’s not how anyone should speak to people in our community who are older than oneself. I’m sorry you didn’t realize it was wrong when you did it, and I’m even sorrier to have been put in the position of informing you. When you call people names and behave as poorly as you did, not only will you loose their respect-as you have lost mine, but in the process you give up any power you might have had. Just think of the people who have called you names in the past–how highly do you regard them? I don’t have to tell you this, I have read your posts where you check people for doing the exact same thing. So when you are called out by myself, by TZ, by King, Kobukson, and Larry, you have only yourself to blame. And now do you see? You do affect people, your actions have consequences. We do hear you, loud and clear. Anyone still need further clarification on this? This post really has nothing specifically to do with IR. It has to do with community. Still need a solution? Here it is: Don’t behave like this!
So, MaSir, shame on you for using your voice in this way. Poor behavior, poor attitude. Very poor.
Now I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are mature enough to understand the wrongness of your actions and let you be responsible for yourself. I’m also going give you enough credit to believe that you are man enough to take what I have to say next, ‘cuz the gloves are coming off.
STFU? Really??? Haha, will someone please give this kid a blowjob so he can see straight? You need to be schooled, boy. You need to check yourself. What are you, 12? You are borderline hysterical. Quit whining like the little bitches you keep calling us and figure it out, FFS. I’m Asian, not white, so DUH, of course I had many of the same experiences you did. But I grew up in a small town in the mid west, miles away from any kind of supportive AA community in your liberal California. It was just me on the bus surrounded by a bunch of bigots. You need to take a good look at some of the other more mature AA men on this site who are a little older and wiser than you–like Byron, Kobukson, Larry, etc.–and go figure out why you have the problems you have. It ain’t all IR, Hello???
If things like the above are what you have to contribute to the community, then please, put us all out of your misery. Take your whining and baggage and go find a nice white girl. I got no sympathy for someone who throws shit at people and then wonders why they have no one to sit with at lunch.
Comon little bro, get a hold of yourself and grow a pair. Come back to us.
…my apologies again Byron, for this tone surfacing here, but that really got under my skin and I don’t play the submissive well. (Although the post count looks record-breaking =P)
@mojorider
I learnt that everyone has intelligent arguments, but that kobukson and masir : MA AZN BRUTHAS, who have great points, and have valid views. And knowing exactly what they are talking about , i would respect them even more if they start giving some asian girls some loving.
Be interesting to hear your viewpoints once you guys are in AM/AF couples- your arguments would sound even stronger. And I say this with great respect, of course.
Also I enjoyed N’s list of wish-fulfilment novels from AF authors.
Putting Kobukson’s theory of unconditional love into practice, I think these women need to develop a bit more self-love first before they stop falling for white-man fetish and his advertising.
AM too, and then they can get the AF. Or at least not care about being rejected when they don’t. Also by developing higher self-esteem we can be in a position to develop this ‘unconditional love’ for the AF whilst they are busy making their minds up …whether that leads to plain po-faced rejection or deep intellectual debate…it wouldnt matter either way – isnt that what ‘unconditional’ means? Without expectation of return?
Finally,without developing our own self-esteem we will be going around in circles, bitching like black women and why their men go for women other than their own.
Unless we just go out there and do it, whatever our personal/public direction of community building is, words just seem trivial.
Positive action equals positive results. And failure is just one step closer to reaching your goal.
@RiceCakeRabbit,
Point well taken.
I sincerely apologize for my emotional outburst of a comment. You stated something in an earlier post that hit the core of my soul as an Asian-American male. You didn’t do it intentionally I know, so I apologize for taking it so personally and coming at your with balls of flame. It was immature and completely unacceptable.
I’m calling for a truce.
You speak of envy? Yes, I admitted that. And who wouldn’t be envious? Its been socially programmed into our heads that we are undesirable. It is not an easy obstacle to overcome. You argue otherwise, fine, but IF IT WERE so easy then these debates wouldn’t even exist in the first place.
With that, I am moving on to bigger and better things besides criticizing and being Mr. Negative. I will respectfully disengage from this blog and say thanks to you all for all of your support and critiques. Every one of you has made me a better person.
That’s big of you MaSir. Most people can’t ever get past their ego to say they are sorry.
I admire the fact that you can so easily do so.
Here’s what I’m taking from this discussion. I’m not walking in someone’s shoes, so I’m trying to understand their viewpoint. And the problem here is that there are a lot of perspectives coming in at different angles in this discussion.
I get where the guys are coming from more readily than the ladies. But I’m trying to see the world thru the ladies’ eyes as well. You know, we all make choices in life—some good, some bad. I don’t know if I’ll understand or even agree with the rationales of some women’s choices, but ultimately, it’s not for me to decide. I don’t know the circumstances or the life experiences of some woman’s life that led to her decision to partnering up with a white guy. I have to worry about the life I’m living and what makes my life fulfilling.
But I don’t want to see other AM’s getting so wound up that they become taliban-like. I understand the anger, the sting of rejection—I’ve been there too. But as I’ve said previously, you can’t change anyone or control someone. You can only control or change yourself, your responses to that person. The Tans and the Hong-Kingstons of the world are going to do whatever they want to do regardless of how it makes AM’s look. Likewise, the AF’s who have contempt for AM’s are not going to see the light. Don’t waste your time with them. See them for what they are and avoid them like you would a turd floating in the punch bowl.
We’re at war with ourselves….how about a mini-surrender? A fragile truce?
I think it’s been interesting to get the female perspectives. They are our other halves. But having said that, now that we’ve had this discussion, where does it go from here? People have vented, people have argued passionately and emotionally. But now what?
And yeah, I think it takes brass balls to do what Masir just did. It isn’t easy to swallow pride and ego, especially after heated and emotional debate, to step forward like that and issue an apology.
You can be an impressive level of awesome, MaSir, when you choose to be. Kudos to you.
And whoa, RiceCakeRabbit, remind me never to get on your bad side. =)
I second that.
Especially the second part.
MaSir–
Apology humbly accepted. Truce emphatically embraced.
And, please, do reconsider disengaging. Your passionate voice is important and I have learned from reading your posts. I’m sure there are others who as yet remain silent that also benefit from you. People to whom you can be an older brother.
I’ll say it again: I hear you.
I’ll say this again too: Come back, brother. <3
Maybe the secret to building a community is not that everybody gets along all of the time, or always agrees on all the same things, or comes from the same perspective.
Maybe the secret is being able to say, “I’m sorry.”
and “I forgive you.”
You should stay MaSir.
King, are you going to sing Kumbaya now? Since no one else here will? I was really expecting that mixtape. Damn. Maybe next time.
I’m waiting for Urb4n
Kobukson,
Always remember that relations between men and women is fundamentally a power struggle. While we have the strength of our minds, our wits, courage and appeal to truth and moral sanction on our side, the only thing that a woman has to control men is her body.
And one wonders why you have problems attracting Asian women? Hmm. . . What a misogynistic statement. So basically, a man has intelligence, wit, courage as well as morality on their side while women only have their bodies because they are too stupid, weak, and immoral. Spoken like a true Christian gentleman. TRUE Christian gentleman. Anyways, you have a problem with interracial dating, fine. But don’t act like you are not part of the problem yourself. Equating romantic relationships to a power struggle just shows me why you have a problem attracting women. From this mentality, there can be no harmony between you and another woman. You’re the same as women who say that all men are jerks and yet expect to find the one. Good luck.
RCR:
Haha! No problem, RCR. My first blogging job was at the Fighting 44s, and the apple don’t fall far from the tree. If someone disrespects you, let them know!
MaSir,
Come back, brother! People love your comments and insight. Seriously, we can be positive here on this blog too. I posted my Happy Post just a few days ago:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/08/the-happy-post/
We can podcast too. Podcasts are almost always positive. And they’re popular like crazy. We can literally use our voices to share a positive message.
People read this thread and see progress.
I see a thread like this, and I know there is no hope for Asian America. Nothing of significance will come of the movement in our generation. The men act like bitches and the bitches act entitled and understanding.
We talk, and we talk… and we talk. The men can’t see past their pathetic miserable experiences to improve themselves to be better men for “our” women and themselves. The women pretend to be concerned and sympathize with the brothers when really all they are concerned about is their own image. All i see is selfishness.
I want to care. Am I wasting my time? Frankly I don’t need to care, I’m 25, 6′ 200lbs, Uni educated, National lvl athlete, Clear 300K a year, Tight with my Fam and Made a girl from every race smile. Maybe someday when i have a little one I’ll care once more, until then I hope you all find your way and be true to yourselves.
I Have A Dream.
Frankly I don’t need to care, I’m 25, 6′ 200lbs, Uni educated, National lvl athlete, Clear 300K a year,
Actually, I think that is exactly why you should care. You’ve got power to do something about it because of your situation. Look at urbs. He makes tons of money (he probably has $300 k in his back pocket as we speak), and he gives lots of it away to charities to help people. He sets an example, and he voices his opinions by supporting those who are helping to build society in the direction that he wants. If the most powerful among us can’t help the least powerful, who will help the least powerful?
Mo Bettah = douchebag
Thanks for being a shining alpha example of arrogant, self absorbed douchebaggery and hypocrisy. Keep dreaming asshole.
Hahaha… the return of MT hahaha!
In re: Mo Bettah, when I asked in an earlier post what do we take from having this conversation with the ladies, I wasn’t expecting an unsympathetic response.
While true, there’s been a lot of talk and heated debate with this kind of topic, there isn’t any prescription offered. Why not offer something a little more profound other than extolling how great you are and that you really don’t have to care. if that’s the case, then why bother even reading and posting here? Surely you can offer up something a little more encouraging.
We’ve had a dialog here and nobody swept anything under the carpet. It got a little heated. But now I ask the blog readers again, what do we take from this? What have we learned? And where do we go from here? If we haven’t learned anything from each other, then this has been an exercise in futility. The women and men talking past each other, neither seeing the root causes or where and how the perspectives arise. And perhaps there is no collective solution and that it’s up to each individual to find his/her own solution.
I see that there are a variety of experiences—a lot is similar—but it’s not a monolithic experience. What works for me in DC might not work for someone else in Chicago, in LA or NYC, and vice versa. Some folks have experienced these social dynamics on a far worse scale than I ever have. And yet, I know someone who hasn’t suffered or experienced anything socially bad (eg, never been called ‘chink’, taunted, or had experienced open contempt from Asian women, etc..).
All I can offer up as a solution is to know your strengths and weaknesses as a person, work on knowing yourself, and put yourself in a position to succeed. And don’t waste your time on those types of AF’s that wouldn’t waste their time on you.
I think that Mojo Rider is right.
One of the early conclusions drawn / lessons learned came from Kobukson. I’d like to quote it, but this thread has gotten so long that I’ve given up on finding the it. But basically Kobukson was advocating the idea of not accepting the flat, “I only date White guys” line. He was saying to challenge that idea, to push beyond it—to force a dialogue and to get past the status quo. I admit, that’s a scary thing to do, but I think it is a great idea. Why simply accept things as they are? What does it really cost you in the long run to challenge these ideas every time you run into them?
“Hahaha… the return of MT hahaha!”
Return from where? I was never really gone. As you guys know, I have my fair share of personal experience with misguided Asian (Asian/Asian American) women dating White men for X, Y, Z reasons. But let us not kid ourselves. These Asian women are not misguided or influenced by societal propaganda and pressures that are so large to overcome; they’re just plain stupid and racist. So are the Asian men who date white women exclusively believing it’s a form of practicing social justice.
Let me attempt to explain. So predicatably, one of the main themes of these IR discussions always tend to deflect personal responsibility and attempt to find an external factor(s) or societal phenomemon. I often hear from Asian women/girls the reason why they date white men or men of other races exclusively is because of how the one relationship with an Asian man they had way back when in time was an abusive relationship. So they have never looked back since or rather looked forward to dating any Asian men ever again. Now abusive relationships/ abusive men are not specific to one race of men or another. So how many times do you hear or have seen white women abandon white men completely because they were ‘once’ in an abusive relationship with a white man (or even over a lifetime of abusive relationships)? I’m sorry if this is an Asian woman’s reason for dating white…It’s ridiculous….they’re either fucking really stupid or fucking really racist. End of story. The same goes for Asian men who date exclusively non-Asians. No one fucking cares abou your social justice motivations. Forming a relationship with another human being is not a fucking game nor is it a launchpad for your derranaged social justice movements for the greater cause. In both women and men, you’re either just really stupid to let the forces of society dictate and mold your self image and actions in life…or you’re just really plain racist against your own kind and can’t even stand the skin you’re in. Take ownership of your stupidity and/or racism and don’t give me some derivative of the same bullshit.
Normally, as a result of these discussions on finding fault, the proposed solutions when cooler tempers prevail is to find some collective conscience or call to action that will rectify the IR issue. The battle (which is an individual battle to begin with) can only be won on an individual basis no matter how many movies or tv shows or books feature Asian American characters in favorable ways. It comes down to individual choice. So unless you’re really stupid or really racist and self hating and have an equally stupid and racist heart to match, you will make the right decision every time. Things have a way of working themselves out when you are true with yourself and the ones you interact with. Love and relationships is not a fucking team sport. Just don’t be fucking stupid and self loathing. And in the game of love or whatever you want to call it, there will always be winners and losers. Not everyone can be attractive, charismatic, smart, or a number of other qualities that seem to always be tied somehow to solutions of how to improve the IR disparity. At some point ugly people as defined by however the paradigm is created will fall out. But ugly people need love too. Just remember that people…yes, really stupid and racist people are ugly, naturally ugly.
How was that King? Enough f-bombs for you? You know certain topics just get me fired up.
In the rare occurence that an AF/AM expresses a racial bias against AAs to me, I usually just say, \I’m sorry that you’ve had a negative experience with Asian men (or women),\ and then change the subject (or walk away). It’s usually good enough to shut them up instantly, and it conveys that I will not put up with degrading AMs/AFs.
It also acknowledges that it’s their own experience (and preference) that causes them to think this way, and it’s different from my own experiences.
If they try to be a smart ass and start stereotyping AMs/AFs, it becomes really obvious how stupid and defensive they sound, and I highlight that fact with a quickness.
But usually, it leads to a conversation about something that’s happened in their past that caused them to feel that way, i.e. \I grew up in an all-White school and never knew any Asians,\ \Been played by too many Asian guys in the past,\ \The past Asian girls I’ve dated/met were so materialistic.\
Then I take the time to reflect on my own experiences as well. I tell them about the lack of seeing other AAs growing up, and then finding familiarity and common ground when meeting AAs in college. If they start disparaging AMs, I tell them how my experience has been pretty much positive, as I did get asked out a lot by AMs (and guys of other races) while I was single. I also tell them how I’ve come across a few asshole AMs in the past, but there’s always a few in every race, and it’s all about putting your foot down and not taking shit from anyone.
If it’s a disparaging AM, I talk about how my AF gfs felt the same way about some of the AMs they dated, but it didn’t stop them from finding an AM that treated them right.
Even if they don’t agree with what I have to say, they also understand how I would feel this way, based on learning about my own personal experiences.
Whatever the outcome, saying \I’m sorry you’ve had a negative experience with Asian men/women.\ highlights that you acknowledge their personal experience without an explicit confrontation about their bias. If they choose to push it further, they have to make the first move, and it makes them look evangelical.
Doh! Forgot to close my html tag…
Fixed! –JH
It’s funny though. Of the 17 non-family AFs that are close to me (so I know their likes/dislikes/habits etc). 14 of them are in AF/AM relationships, and let’s be honest here, AFs in AF/WM relationships generally don’t have a lot, if any AM friends in their circle. And out of that 14, all are exposed to Asian media (anime/dramas/music etc.) from a young age and don’t really care about the American media. On the other hand, the 3 in IR are the ones quite obsessed with pin-ups of Hollywood stuff from a young age.
It’s obviously a small sample. But 14 out of 14 is pretty good.
And a younger cousin e-mailed me the other day something that I thought it’s quite funny. It’s his “Michael Cera” test, if the AF you’re interested in think he’s cute, then she definitely belongs in the group that won’t date AMs.
@AF/AM couple
I assume you meant AF/WM in the first line? I got slightly confused reading it. But I do encounter hostility from AFs on several incidences and most are AFs from AF/WM relationships.
I dated an AF whose circle of friends (Mainly church people) are mainly AF/WM and I know for a fact that they put a lot of pressure on that AF by constantly saying bad things about me and AMs in general (I learn this off one of those WMs, whose a friend and geniunely a nice guy, as oppose to most of the other ones in that group).
So after we broke up (well, actually she cheated on me, but it doesn’t really matter, the end result was the same), when her new WM dumped after a month and blamed me for ruining their relationship because I was ganging up with her AM father to discriminate/isolate him. The funny thing is that I didn’t think her father really cared who she’s with and the only conversation I had with her father was, “I know it’s not your fault, but stay away from my daughter from now or I’ll shoot your head off.” (Yes, I didn’t actually get along with her father in the first place).
So what happened? Well, all the AFs in that circle made me public enemy no.1, saying that I was an ‘a-hole’, ‘desperate’, ‘no better than a stalker’etc (it was much more than that, but my long-term memory isn’t working).
When word finally came out that he made up all that stuff because he fancied any girl in that circle and wanted out of his existing relationship. (which he succeeded but subsequently left her for another AF – which is why the truth was revealed – by the 3rd AF).
And no, I never received any apologies from any of the AFs that wrongly accused me of do something I never did (including my ex).
So there’s obviously good people in AF/WM, but even the WM that I’m friends with, wasn’t prepared to stand up for me at the risk of getting on the bad side of the other AFs and ruining his own relationship (which he apologised for and I understand fully).
I don’t know those AFs that well, but they definitely seem as though they would take a WM’s words word a AM’s any day of the week. So that’s my beef with AFs in WM/AF…(actually there’s my mother as well, but that’s another story)
N,
No, I meant either AFs or AMs I come into contact with (so AF/AM), not an AF/WM couple, but I can see how it could be read as an error, so thanks for clarifying.
“How was that King? Enough f-bombs for you? You know certain topics just get me fired up.”
Haaa!!! Pure genius, actually. – Street Philosophy 101.
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