It’s been a LONG time since I’ve podcasted. Nearly a year. So I was happy to have been able to record a podcast with Kobukson. It was a great time, and I hope you’ll all give it a listen and hear what he has to say about literary sensibility and the values that come from religion. The podcast is 27.3 mb and runs for about an hour. Download it here, or play it here:
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I was fascinated by what Kobukson had to say about Free Food For Millionaires (at around 30 min) and the relationships between men and women (“Min Jin, you broke my heart!”). Kobukson also spoke about history and made some insightful commentary on literature and how it’s important for us as people. I think that for me personally, this is a topic that I would love to learn more about. I feel that literature is the vanguard of activism as it applies to us, and the more we talk about it, the better we’ll be able to articulate it.
In terms of length, it may have been good to talk just about literature and to save religion for another day–I felt as if there was much we didn’t get to cover. The podcast was much longer than the usual target of 45 minutes. I do think that it was a good topic to discuss however. I remember a recent conversation with a coworker about being Jewish, and how his Jewish upbringing encouraged him to debate and fight with God. He spoke about that culture of debate and how it contributed to how Jewish people felt about authority. Religion is a fascinating concept, and perhaps the religious/cultural issue is one that we should soon revisit.
Anyway, give it a listen and sound of like a WOWO!
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Perhaps it did not come across correctly in the podcast, but is the guest (hi, Kobu!) saying that Whites aren’t experiencing karmic retribution for their transgressions because they’re historically Christian and therefore the beneficiaries of God’s grace, but Asians are historically Buddhist, Confucianist, Taoist, Hindu, Jainist, etc., and so not only experience karmic retribution as a result of following Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Hindusim, Jainism, etc., but further, are not entitled to God’s grace because we’re, for lack of a better descriptive, pagan? I’m not trying to put words in anybody’s mouth; I’m only pushing for clarification.
First, I love MJL’s FFFM, recommended the book as an introduction to AA lit to many a friend, and bought copies of it at full price retail to give as gifts. So I am a supporter of Lee’s work and from what I’ve read through interviews and her other writings, she strikes me as an incredible human being. When her sophomore book is released, I will again go out and buy Lee’s work. That said, I found the ending problematic not because the entire plot was up in the ethers of Christian metaphor, but because it was inconsistent with the rest of the book. After several hundred pages of very condensed narrative with symbolism incidental to the action, the ending essentially fell off a narrative cliff, took flight and we heard angel song. It didn’t congeal with me. FFFM was plot-driven, not theme-driven (though it was that to an extent), and not character-driven (which the podcast participants seem to agree with). Had the entire novel been a “quiet” novel, its expression coming forward mostly through subtext, then the ending would make sense. Instead, it went from chapter after chapter of reading like “chick lit” to a very sudden and un-prefaced “now let me synthesize my Christian faith with my outlook on the Asian American community and what I believe is a greater need for solidarity.”
Didn’t have a chance to finish the podcast yet; only got up to around 48 min., but great job, both of you.
Didn’t have a chance to finish the podcast yet; only got up to around 48 min., but great job, both of you.
Oi, we should’ve shortened it. Okay, 30-45 minutes from now on!
I agree with you on FFFM. I thought it was well written, and in fact I had trouble putting it down. I too will buy her next book (and prepare for heartbreak yet once again). That being said, the ending was really different from the rest of the novel. I think it was still written in chick lit style, but that’s not typically how a chick lit novel ends. It should’ve ended with them getting married or running away. It still would’ve been revolutionary if she had ended it this way (and yes, despite the fact that she dished out every stereotype of Asian men and White men, it was still revolutionary in that there was an AA love interest). I don’t think there was or has been an Asian American chick lit book with an AA love interest. I don’t know; this was the only chick lit book I’ve read. Somehow I get the feeling that China Dolls doesn’t have Unu or another Asian version of Unu.
Kobu can probably expand on the grace thing, but I think he was talking about guilt. Maybe guilt is less widespread in Western cultures because Western cultures had Christianity which promotes the concept of grace. They don’t believe as much in karma; they believe in new beginnings and rebirth. I come from the church, and so I know lots of people who do very bad things while feeling very little guilt. It’s the mindset.
The one gem that stood out was the comment on “300,” and how most Asian Americans don’t know their history and that they don’t even care to know. Once they do try to learn more about their history, language becomes a barrier. The inability to read Chinese, Japanese, Korean or any other Asiatic language presents a problem, because you learn about the mythic past of your ancestors through English and through the lens of the Euro American view. From what I understand, Frank Chin learned Chinese in order to go to the original classic Chinese texts.
Anyway, how many ABC’s really know who Guan Yu is? if you walk into a Chinese business, whether they’re Chinese from Guangdong or Chinese from Vietnam, you’ll see the statue of Guan Yu in a small shrine facing the door. He is a red face warrior who is worshipped as the god of war and literature. Sometimes he is depicted holding a knife, and sometimes he is holding a scroll.
he is not the only heroic figure in Chinese lore, of course. But I think there’s profound difference in esteem between an ABC who knows nothing of his heritage and an overseas Chinese who grew up immersed in a rich mythology. In the absence of a proud heritage to aspire to, a racist self-hating stereotype fills the cultural void in one’s mind.
Quick thoughts, you guys covered a lot of ground:
1. J, in your intro, you mentioned self improvement….isn’t literature a pathway to wisdom? I’m not talking just any typical pulp crap like a Tom Clancy novel…real literature/art has something to say about our lives. The author has a vision or perspective about life as an observer to tell us something about life.
2. I go back to Bill Moyers’ talks with Joseph Campbell about shamans and mythology. These were the ones who would go out to places that the rest of the community couldn’t go and the shamans were the seers, the people to tell the tribe about the future. Campbell said our modern day shamans are our artists, writers, etc….if you find someone’s work that moves you, Campbell recommends that you find all of that person’s work and follow him/her. Because that person speaks to YOUR life, they are able to articulate all the things you think and feel but can’t express. And in their work, they hold the mirror up to you.
3. As far as religion and Christianity, I’ve said here before that there there is a lot more to Christianity than what is commonly practiced and what is known. The vast majority of Christians are only getting just a sliver of what Christianity encompasses. If you don’t get further than just the Old/New Testaments, you’re missing out on the richness of the religion.
Kobukson, you had touched briefly upon Jesus being a feminist….very interesting. The Gnostic gospels have some incredibly fascinating things to say about not only Jesus but Mary Magdalene as well.
4. And again, posting about karma, I don’t believe in the Asian concept of collective guilt, the sins of the father being the children’s responsibility. We are imbued with free will—everyone of us. We are conscious beings, capable of higher thought. I don’t think there is any sort of collective or group karma; rather it is more individual, based on what your actions are and what you CHOOSE to do.
Concept of karma as understood in Christian terms can be viewed as “you reap what you sow”. The Golden Rule. What you doeth unto others, then you doeth unto Him. Esepcially if we are all sparks of divinity.
5. I have a lot of trouble with Christian dogma, especially fundamentalism (for the record, I am nominally a protestant Christian but have never really been a practicing one). The inconsistencies i see, as discussed about the notion of grace, is that we are already forgiven for our sins, that He died for us, and everything is fine as long as we believe in Him at the end. I don’t buy it. The concept of karma does, however.
ooops, i didn’t finish my thought….
karma does, however, add in a rationale for adhering to the Golden Rule.
Alpha–
Agreed.
I got a question for you. Your daughter–do you or will you tell her Chinese stories, such as the Fox and the Scholar, the guy who shot the seven suns, etc.? I haven’t thought as much about it as I should, but I think the whole paradigm is different. It’s hard to explain; I hope someone has tried to do so already. If they have, I might check it out. Maybe it has something to do with Karma vs. Monotheism (I think most Western fairytales came after Christ).
1. J, in your intro, you mentioned self improvement….isn’t literature a pathway to wisdom? I’m not talking just any typical pulp crap like a Tom Clancy novel…real literature/art has something to say about our lives. The author has a vision or perspective about life as an observer to tell us something about life.
I agree.
Actually, I read something interesting of TMM’s site:
http://benefsanem.blogspot.com/2010/07/we-dont-need-another-hero.html
I agree with his assessment of what OTHER PEOPLE say about role models, but I don’t think that’s what those OTHER PEOPLE are really looking for when they want to see more yellows in the media. I think characters in the media–be in literature, movies, etc.–help us to access that shamanistic knowledge within us. It’s something that societies need.
Is that Bill Moyers thing online?
Sorry, that last section for for Mojo, and it was Mojo that I quoted…
I’m double/triple posting. Thanks again for that thought, Mojo. That helps a lot. Here’s what I posted on that “hero” blog:
Nice post. Thank you for that. I found your site through Minority Militant.
I agree with what you’re saying about what OTHER PEOPLE are saying about wanting role models in the media, but I don’t think that that is what they really want. What they are looking for is stories to help explain who they are.
One of my blog commentators yesterday mentioned the ancient role of shamans in society.
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/07/literature-and-religion-podcast-with-kobukson/#comment-5496
Artists, in many ways, serve as modern day shamans. They help explain our feelings, and they hold up a mirror to tell us who we are. They aren’t serving as role models, but rather as people who expand our understanding of our condition.
J,
not sure if the Bill Moyer’s interviews are online. It was in the PBS Series he did with Campbell, discussing Campbell’s work, and later documented in the companion book, The Power of Myth, talks with Joseph Campbell.
This segment might have it. Try here:
http://vimeo.com/4828742
Interesting post on role models or lack thereof for Asian men. Speaking of heroes, Campbell goes on to say that George Lucas’ Star Wars is really an old story already told in ancient myths…the journey of the hero.
“In the absence of a proud heritage to aspire to, a racist self-hating stereotype fills the cultural void in one’s mind.”
I think this hit an important nail right on the head…There IS a void in America, and the proud heritage one should aspire to is muddied in the flavors of “melting pot”. It’s not just isolated to AA’s, either. It’s something I remember discussing back in anthro classes or the like. The American culture at large really has no formal “coming of age” ceremony and leaves people searching for that boundary–but that is another topic.
Unlike A’s, AA’s don’t necessarily have that firm culture backing them up because we have sort of been transplanted/grafted into America. It leaves us somewhat baseless… We know we are not totally Asian. But something tells us we are not totally American either, so we question: “What is Asian America? How Asian am I? How American am I? Am I American-Chinese, are you Chinese-American?” Not having the answers, we seek outside ourselves—the most logical place being the society around us. This is often where things for AA’s get all fouled up—when, for lack of a strong positive self-image due to trying to merge very different cultures; people let themselves be defined by others.
BTW, for anyone interested in AA stories/storytellers for their kids or for personal edification, here are a few good ones to look up, and most have some video or samples on either youtube or their own websites:
Nancy Wang and Robert Kikuchi-Yngojo (SF, CA)
Motoko (Amherst MA)
Anne Shimojima (Evanston IL)
Alton Takiyama Chung (Vancouver WA)
Kuniko Yamamoto (Florida)
Brenda Wong Aoki (SF, CA)
Clara Yen (Livermore, CA)
RCR, I agree. I’ve often asked the question, “So, just what is Asian American culture?” and the answers I get from some leaves me feeling it’s not really rooted in anything when I hear “It’s whatever you make it.” Like you pointed out, assimilation means becoming that muddied, bland, melting pot. I’ve discussed this over at Alpha Asian blog as well in regards to identity.
“I got a question for you. Your daughter–do you or will you tell her Chinese stories, such as the Fox and the Scholar, the guy who shot the seven suns, etc.? I haven’t thought as much about it as I should, but I think the whole paradigm is different.”
Quite frankly I haven’t thought much about what sort of stories to tell my daughter. But I think it’d be a good idea to tell her such stories, as well as intriguing stories from other cultures. Fairy tales, folklore and mythology are easy entertaining ways to seed one’s mind with cultural DNA. They provide one with lessons and a world view, so I’d think I’d be very choosy as to what lesson to impart upon my child.
Mojo,
Thanks for that resource! I’m going to check it out. Or if Joseph Campbell has a book, maybe I could check that out.
RCR,
Thank you for those resources too. I think I’ve heard Alton Chung tell stories before. I’ll definitely check out the other ones.
Alpha,
Hmm…maybe I should try to listen to some of the storytellers that RCR posted. I currently have trouble adjusting the paradigm. For example, I got a book with a story called the Fish Basket Princess. I guess it’s a good story, but it doesn’t quite fit the context of what I know. Of course, that’s my lack of knowledge, not the story’s lack of tellability.
Another example–from a non-Chinese culture–is Momotaro, the Peach Boy. Why is it important that he’s so small? It probably makes more sense in the context of the culture where it came from. Again, that’s my lack of knowledge; it’s not the story’s fault.
(For the record, my son met Frank Chin when he was two years old. I’m only now beginning to tell him stories at age 4.)
Asian American culture is:
- cringing a little when you hear “ching chong” or when people pull their eyelids at you because it reminds you of elementary school playgrounds
- hesitating at the Ethnicity (optional) box when filling out college applications because while you don’t think it should count against you, a part of you is irrationally, or maybe rationally, afraid that it will
- choreographing the ribbon dance or fan dance to Britney Spears and Jewel
- fashion design incorporating lines and silhouettes from cheongsams, hanboks, kimonos, and han fu dresses
- Executive Order 9066 is a bit of a sore spot for you, as is the Chinese Exclusion Act
- when watching Sixteen Candles with a group of non-Asian friends and Long Duk Dong comes on screen, you twitch a little
- you were fascinated with all things (a) World War II and Rape of Nanking, (b) Korean War, or (c) Nam –related at some point in your life, or maybe still are
- you’re pretty much the only person, aside from other Asian Americans, who has a strong opinion about the Joy Luck Club
- Amy Tan (like it or not), Maxine Hong Kingston (like it or not), Frank Chin (like it or not), Jennifer 8. Lee, Sue Kwock Kim, Jhumpa Lahiri, Elaine H. Kim, Maya Lin, I. M. Pei, Vera Wang, John Woo, Ang Lee…
- banding and bantering on weblogs like this one
TZ,
yikes! I know it’s not an inclusive list you made, but it sounds a little bleak….that AA culture is about flinching and wincing.
J,
try the companion book to the PBS series, it’s a much quicker and condensed version of Campbell’s work which is more academic and can be a bit dry to read. Bill Moyers breaks it down in interview/conversation style so Campbell’s work is much more accessible and understandable.
@ Mojo: lol. And so it is. And so it is.
@ Mojo again: Hey now wait a minute, dancing with ribbons to Britney Spears is kind of happy. Yeah, it’s not an inclusive list. I did an unedited free-write where I jotted down whatever came to my head immedatiately upon the notion of “AA culture.”
Perhaps it did not come across correctly in the podcast, but is the guest (hi, Kobu!) saying that Whites aren’t experiencing karmic retribution for their transgressions because they’re historically Christian and therefore the beneficiaries of God’s grace, but Asians are historically Buddhist, Confucianist, Taoist, Hindu, Jainist, etc., and so not only experience karmic retribution as a result of following Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism, Hindusim, Jainism, etc., but further, are not entitled to God’s grace because we’re, for lack of a better descriptive, pagan? I’m not trying to put words in anybody’s mouth; I’m only pushing for clarification.
I wish I could have fleshed this out a bit more but time was of the essence.
I wasn’t trying to imply that certain groups of people are entitled to God’s grace and others aren’t. What I was saying is that belief systems have a profound impact on people’s view of the world and themselves. God’s grace is available to all but obviously some people believe in grace and others believe in other things. The concept of grace is unique to Christianity, amongst all the world’s religions. Obviously, if one civilization has been influenced by a religion like Christianity, which teaches grace and draws a wide chasm between the “old” and the “new”, these people would have a very different idea about guilt and the relationship of one’s fate to the sins of the past than a civilization that believes in karma, worships ancestors, and emphasizes collectivism. This difference manifests itself even to this day.
Additionally, guilt is more of a Western thing. Asians are more preoccupied with shame, which is a close cousin of guilt, but there is a subtle difference. Eastern societies were (still) shame-based societies. The Asian-American community retains much of this mentality and it is important for Asian-American activism to be consciously aware of this fact.
mojorider:
I have a lot of trouble with Christian dogma, especially fundamentalism.
Well, apparently Christ himself had huge problems with what you call “fundamentalism”, which the gospels personify as the Pharisees and the Teachers of the Law. Scripture defines it as adhering to the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. This results in judgmental self-righteousness and hypocrisy. More than 75% of the gospels is about Christ attacking the religious right establishment of his time, which was the reason why the Pharisees hated him and later had him crucified. But Christians and “critics of Christian dogma” alike would do well to actually READ what they profess to believe in or criticize.
Alpha Asian:
The one gem that stood out was the comment on “300,” and how most Asian Americans don’t know their history and that they don’t even care to know.
A familiar cry of lament in Asian-American activist circles is that we seem to lack a distinctive and definitive Asian-American culture or identity that does not merely ape elements of Black or White culture/identity. Well, for me at least, it stands to reason that in order to go about forging a distinctive and definitive Asian-American-ness, we ought to be well versed in Asian culture, history, philosophy, and narrative which spans for 5000 years. But in my experience, most Asian-Americans are woefully ignorant of a deep reserve of cultural richness and fail to draw upon it.
I picked the example of “300″ because A. I enjoyed it immensely B. it is a compelling story based on actual events which occurred in ancient Greece. King Leonidas of Sparta was the hero, with 300 Spartan warriors, fended off a huge invading Persian army at the Battle of Thermopylae, thus saving Western Civilization from annihilation. Although they perished, Leonidas’s example inspired the disparate Greek city-states to become united and repel the Persians. The movie was based upon a graphic novel by Frank Miller.
We Koreans have a towering figure similar to King Leonidas, who accomplished similar feats of courage, Admiral Yi Soon Shin, the man who invented my namesake the kobukson, or “turtle ship”, the world’s first armor-clad warship, and repelled a massive Japanese invasion fleet during the Imjin Wars of the 16th century. During one particular engagement, the Battle of Myeongnyang, 13 kobukson destroyed an enemy fleet of 333 ships, Asia’s naval equivalent to the Battle of Thermopylae. As a tactical strategist, Admiral Yi is often compared to Britain’s Lord Nelson.
I’ve always felt that the feats of Admiral Yi should be depicted as a graphic novel and be made into a movie, just like “300″. To date, there exists no decent movie about this made by Koreans, aside from a tacky TV drama series. If a “300″ style movie about Admiral Yi and the Imjin Wars were made, it would be a work that not just Korean-Americans but all Asians can be proud of. I don’t see why a graphic novel can’t be done, despite the fact that it would be a fairly ambitious project. Lord knows we have enough graphics artists amongst Asian-Americans. But again, many Asian-Americans are woefully ignorant of Asian heritage and this exacerbates an impoverishment of imagination within Asia-America and the development of an identity or culture that is distinctively Asian-American. Until Asia-America rediscovers its own heritage rooted in the Motherland much like how Europeans emerged from the Dark Ages when they rediscovered classic Greek and Roman heritage, we shall be limited to belabored works of existential angst, navel-gazing, and the world will know nothing of Asians except martial arts and geishas.
Alpha-Asian:
The inability to read Chinese, Japanese, Korean or any other Asiatic language presents a problem, because you learn about the mythic past of your ancestors through English and through the lens of the Euro American view. From what I understand, Frank Chin learned Chinese in order to go to the original classic Chinese texts.
I agree that our Westernized educations have us steeped in the works of Dead White Males and we Asian-Americans would do well to read more Dead Oriental Males as well. But I do not see a problem learning “about the mythic past of your ancestors through English and through the lens of the Euro American view.”
During the Dark Ages, the only Europeans who could read and write were the clergy. At the time, the more sophisticated Middle Eastern civilizations were the ones who studied and preserved the writings of Plato, Aristotle, and Socrates. It was through contact with the Middle East that Europe re-discovered the Greek and Roman classics, which were translated from Arabic, and in doing so, launched a Renaissance.
Mojorider:
Kobukson, you had touched briefly upon Jesus being a feminist….very interesting. The Gnostic gospels have some incredibly fascinating things to say about not only Jesus but Mary Magdalene as well.
Gnosticism was a corrupted version of Christianity during the days of the early church. During the Roman Empire, Hellenistic culture was dominant in the Roman world just as American culture is dominant today. Greek philosophy abhorred the material world, thought of it as evil, and that the purest state of existence was in spirit form. Gnosticism was the syncretism of “matter=evil” thought to Christianity but clearly it goes against core Christian doctrine . Scripture does hold the view that matter=evil. Gnosticism has been discredited amongst theologians and secularists alike, it remains a largely forgotten curiosity in the history of the church, but the Dan Brown crowd still finds it fascinating none the less for other reasons.
The man who said “those of you who are without sin cast the first stone” when an adulteress was dragged before him by a mob was indeed a feminist at a time when such kind of thinking was practically alien. The fact that the same man spoke to a scandalized Samaritan woman (a despised minority) with “five husbands” and publicly associated with prostitutes, tax collectors, poor fishermen and others that were consider to be trash by proper society reveals a certain radical bent in this particular rabbi.
The gospel accounts are a kind of a feminist work in themselves but no one would know it. The first persons who discovered Jesus’s empty tomb were women, including Mary Magdelene. The gospel writers make it clear that they wanted the case of Jesus’s death and resurrection to be treated like a courtroom case, with corroboration of evidence and eyewitness testimony. Just before crucifixion, Jesus himself stands on trail in a court of Roman jurisprudence where Pontius Pilate, torn between deciding the fate of a man who he feels is innocent and the demands of the mob, asks plaintively “what is truth?”
The first eyewitnesses of the evidence of Jesus’s resurrection according to Matthew, Luke, Mark, and John turned out to be women. This is astounding if you knew the context in which this occurs, which is the fact that women were not considered to be reliable eyewitnesses in a court. In fact, their testimonials were not even admitted.
correction: Scripture does NOT hold the view that matter=evil.
kobukson, thanks for your thoughts. to me, it’s one big epistemlogical mystery. Something happened for the rise of Christianity to become influential in how people understood the world. Just exactly what happened will always be shrouded in mystery, subjected to debate, to interpretation, to politics of the day. And that’s where faith comes in.
Whether one is a believer or not, there’s no conclusive evidence or proof to argue for or against this or that. The fact there was a Council of Nicaea speaks to the varied aspects of early Christianity, of deciding just what was the true represenatation of christendom. Just what was the truth in how the average person should worship and what they were to believe in? Do we trust the church bishops at this first council? Did they get too caught up in the more philsophical debates, I think, about Jesus’ divinity, etc, rather than come to a consensus about exactly what happened, what were Jesus’s actual words, his teachings? And often times, once you get a formation of a bureaucracy, you start getting lots of man made controls instituted. the church became a ruling entity in society as well.
And for me, being a bit of an iconoclast, I don’t like the idea of a huge entity getting in the way of my spiritual path and/or relationship with the creator because of the trust factor (and that’s my hang up). Disregarding the Dan Brown drivel and crap, I wonder if the Gnostics or other early Christian sects were of a similar mindset. were they just eccentrics who strayed from the conventional traditions of the day? Who knows? How can we ever know anything to really be true?
I mention the Gnostics, whether they are accepted by theologians or not (and one shouldn’t read Dan Brown to be educated on religious history because he’s not an historian nor a scholar), because of what was written in the Nag Hamaddi texts and scrolls that sort of reflect a rather modern thinking when it came to equality for women. It was interesting to see that this early Christian sect had those views. Why? How did that come about? How was Mary Magadalene seen as a sort of equal to the other disciples? And can we believe the scholarly interpretations from the translation of the Nag Hammadi texts to be accurate? And as you mentioned, how is it that in the New Testament we have women bearing witness?
I dunno! And to me, it’s all one big mystery. Moreover, I can’t speak to the spiritual lives of folks over in Asia or how they view/understand the world thru their Buddhist, Hindu, etc, beliefs. How can they know, as well, what the real word of the Buddha was? Who wrote the Bhagavad Gita? The Upanishads or the Vedic texts? Where did that stuff come from?
In the end, though, each person must find his or her own spiritual path and truth in how they view and interpret the great cosmos.
Mojo, with all due respect this is getting too convoluted now and I blame myself for steering the direction of this discussion towards the validity of ancient manuscripts and what not. That is not why I brought up religion, specifically Christianity, but rather to examine its relevance in terms of activism and how it speaks to the Asian-American experience.
No worries, I know I was going off on a tangent. I, myself, think the mysteries of Christianity are intriguing and so I meandered off on to that stuff.
Just for sake of discussion, it’s been stated by others that Jesus was a radical, an activist, going against the conventions of the day, against usury, etc. But are there guiding moral principles in relgious activism or religious beliefs that can navigate the way for the AA community or speak to the AA experience? And does it have to be based in religion or can secular ethics provide the same relevance? does it speak to the AA experience?
i’m also curious about how religious AA’s are.
But are there guiding moral principles in relgious activism or religious beliefs that can navigate the way for the AA community or speak to the AA experience? And does it have to be based in religion or can secular ethics provide the same relevance? does it speak to the AA experience?
Let me rephrase this exact paragraph in another way.
But are there guiding moral principles in religious activism or religious beliefs that can navigate the way for the Black community or speak to the 1960s Civil Rights Movement? And does it have to be based in religion or can secular ethics provide the same relevance? Does it speak to the Black experience?
Man, where the heck is King to back me up?
Hi Jae thanks for an interesting interview with Kobukson. FYI this guy called pyrobooby on youtube has been labelledamerican dave chapelle . also being condemned for similarly mocking accents but anyway i think he’s funny, and edgy which is i think is the quality that kobukson is hinting at.
regarding the karmic media stereotyping that AA males are ‘suffering’ i think instead of analyzing it to death, we just have to rise above it as individuals and create a new asian culture in our own individual minds first – our own lives.
simply, this means developing ourselves as individuals, and not just accepting the norm. lets be realistic. koreans are proud to be korean, japanese proud to be japanese, chinese etc etc. but responsibility starts individually by challenging ourselves to do the opposite to what we have been stereotyped for. answer= be more artistic/original and less mathmatic/emulative
because when there is personal selfesteem, then it can be reached out to others. once we encourage others, we wont need anyone to ‘help’ or ‘feel sorry for us’. asian male is a mindset that is in a state of flux. and until we create the reality within ourselves first as individuals, the stereotype will remain there.
regarding the integrity of writing for asian american audiences, its a nice idealistic idea but until we have something real to write about, its just clutching at straws and checking blogs to find out who ‘has made the first move for us asians’ in a nutshell, its a personal responsibility, and we shouldnt expect ‘others’ to do it for us.
once this change happens, any negativity will be eliminated .
here are inspirational and very successful youtube artists who are just taking action, regardless: ( google) : pyrobooby, mychonny, communitychannel, kevjumba, nigahiga,wongfuproductions, timothydelaghetto, dumbfoundead. check em all out. they’re conquering youtube amongst the young AA audiences. express yourselves honestly, and to the max, folks. thats what i get from bruce lee’s philosophy. be proud of who you are as an individual and express your opinions ‘good’ or ‘bad’ – being asian is just incidental to being uniquely human.
to end on a bruce lee quote, a warning to following ‘tradition’ a cemetary that bruce greeted his martial arts students with at the entrance door:
In memory of a once fluid man, crammed and distorted by the classical mess
to me, that means learn the rules, and then once mastered, BREAK THEM.
Sounds like a great podcast, so far. I’m just not finished with it yet, because I’ve been at work around the clock . But as soon as my deadline is over, I’ll finish up. Great job so far though!
kobukson,
i gotcha, i know where you’re going with it. i ask those questions not to argue but to wonder if the AA religious community is apathetic. it seems a lot of times black church leaders ARE the community leaders and activists, the representative voice for when something affects their community. when the civil rights of AA’s are violated, we see AA activist organizations come out but I don’t really see any Asian religious leaders stepping out front.
@angrybrit,
I dunno…I just don’t view lousy media portrayals as being karmic. but i do agree that there’s paralysis by analysis; sure, one has to keep above the fray and not always get dragged down into the muck with the pig ignorant philistines who constantly push for those stereotypical portrayals. you just have to get on living your own life. I can’t always worry and be self conscious about how someone views me. I’m not responsible for their education…but sometimes, when you’re in areas where people might not ever have met an AA, ie, very little diversity, you’re the only contact they have with a person of color. And by default, you are kind of thrust into that role anyway.
i think many of us are naturally doing what you say we should be doing: growing as individuals and living our own lives. I don’t think anyone has to consciously think about that and i think there are many others who defy the stereotypes anyway. you just have to keep doing what you’re doing. I understand what your’e saying but even then, what the hell is so bad about being into the sciences? Or mathematics? Not everyone is a liberal arts major.
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First of all, thank you Jaehwan and Kobukson for a wonderful podcast.
My 2cents: I believe our lack of leadership and cohesiveness is due to two main factors. The first is the problem that the idea of “Asian America” is based on a false premise: all Asians are lumped together simply because we or our families just happen to come from the same side of the world. Fact is, Asian Americans (and I have to use this term quite generally like we all do) come from a huge diversity of backgrounds and cultures, many of which have been historically at odds with each other.
It’s not that AA have no pride, it’s just that we reserve our pride and loyalty to our individual cultures and that of our parents. Our histories are different and our immigration experiences are different. This is why Asians tend to settle into Chinatowns or Koreatowns and not some huge collective Asian American town. Leaders do exist in these communities, but to expect everyone to fall in line behind any one of them is a bit of a stretch for the reasons I mentioned above. There’s just not enough in the mutual AA experience to act as a bond between these communities.
Contrast this to Black or Jewish communities, where the respective populations have a general bond through shared histories, experiences and struggles, and suffered the same traumas. On top of this foundation, many new members are born of the same American experience as others in their communities. Meanwhile, AA communities are constantly infused by immigrants carrying with them the same kinds of diversity and prejudices as the first AAs. Ironically, these immigrants are the ones who keep alive the richness of our cultural backgrounds. Considering, homegrown AAs hardly keep the communities alive at the rate in which we out-marry and assimilate into the dominate culture, which leads me to…
The second main factor: the Model Minority Trap. The main problem that our American communities are so divided is because we rely on immigrants to keep them alive. 2nd or 3rd generation AAs generally leave, or find little in common with them because whites have made it so easy for us to assimilate (in a manner of speaking). I call it a trap because it lures us away from our community by giving us an “out” of our otherness status and an “in” to 1st class citizenship that is denied to other racial minorities. Why carry on the struggles of our “backward” ancestors when honorary white status is just a hop and skip away? Of course there’s a cost to that membership, but it seems like a price many of us are willing to pay. Just look at those Asian American artistic “leaders” who achieve their fame by selling out. As for the few like Frank Chin who tried to hold on to their integrity, look what happened to them.
Worse of all, this Model Minority Trap have many AAs convinced that we can overcome racism by just pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. It sets us against the other minority communities by using the excuse that they’re just not working hard enough (or they’re playing the “race card”). And it makes us believe that our own Asian cultures are holding us back from assimilation into the great American society, and ultimately, acceptance. Essentially, for many of us, the Asian American experience is one of leaving behind the community of our ancestors.
I listened to the podcast for the first time today. Now I know why Johnny Depp doesn’t like to watch his own movies.
Haha. Kobukson, I hope that doesn’t mean we can’t do this again!