Et tu, Jarah?
(pic from here)
Jarah Mariano is the very first woman of Asian descent to become a Victoria’s Secret model. And like almost all of our Asian American female “firsts,” she’s dating a White guy. We support our celebrities, but they don’t date us or any men of color. It’s like there’s a Asian Female Celebrity Club (I’m adding this one to my lexicon, along with “community store”) that somehow decided that men of color would be excluded from their dating pool. When we see that the AFCC members as a general rule don’t date us, it kills us a little bit. We feel shortchanged, especially given how hard we work to promote Asian Americans trying to make a name for themselves.
In the Jamie Yeo and Zhang Ziyi posts, we’ve talked a lot about why this happens, how it happens, and the effect that it has on us when minority celebrities have race preferences. No, I don’t know if Jarah Mariano has a race preference, but to chalk up the fact that nearly 100% of Asian female celebrities only date or marry White guys to coincidence seems a bit irrational. It’s like tossing a dice and getting sixes a hundred times in a row. Pretty soon you realize that the dice are loaded.
Just last week, I was reading a short story by an Asian American female author. I told a friend, “This woman is definitely married to a White guy.” She asked how I knew. I told her, “It’s simple. Her main character is an Asian guy, and he looks nothing like any Asian guy I’ve ever met in real life. His character is closer to how a stereotypical White guy envisions Asian malehood.” We googled this author, and sure enough, the author was a fifty-something Asian woman married to a White guy. Her lack of knowledge came through in her writing. The effect of the AFCC race preference extends beyond what the pairing represents; it extends as well to the ignorant views that people in power propagate.
So what can an Asian guy do? How can we survive the AFCC embargo?
Some argue that we need to leave the community store, and or that we need to decrease demand for Asian women. I don’t think Asian men want to do the former, and I don’t think Asian men can do the latter. As I mentioned in the Zhang Ziyi thread, we’re stuck with each other.
I think the solution is exactly the opposite of what some of my faithful readers are proposing. Sure, Asian men should date interracially more. That’s a given. But we need to stop treating dating and love as a negotiation, and we need to start treating it as an experience. Rather than leaving the community store, we need to shop our own store in more creative ways. Sure, the salespeople might not sell to us, and they may make us use the separate-but-equal minority male water fountain while giving steep discounts to other men, but we need to engage. The way to do that is generosity. Practice saying nice things to Asian women. Practice thinking kind thoughts. Create art around the Asian women you meet to express your feelings. Celebrate the ones who do support us. And most importantly–expect nothing in return.
There is plenty of love to go around, but to experience it, people need to feel open, unafraid, and unencumbered. They need to live in a world of abundance. When love becomes a negotiation, it loses its flavor. It starts to taste like business, which can be unpalatable even to a businessman. Let’s open ourselves to the experiences that life is ready to give. It’s the only way to live.
Edit: Oh, and one more message to the AFCC….“Come back, sisters!”
Edit 2: I usually don’t edit my titles after the fact, but in this case, I did. AFCC, the Asian Female Celebrity Club, just rolls off the tongue better. I’ll keep the link the same.
Related posts:
But here is an...
I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
Haha…”AFCU embargo”…I love it. I’m not sure how this supports your argument, jaewhan. Countries under embargo tend to fall into starvation and poverty. Their citizens become bitter, insular and reckless. When one’s source of life is in short supply, generosity and love become luxuries one can’t really afford. Sounds familiar? But when only one country embargoes you, then you try to appeal to other countries for their support. Damn, again I’m sounding like a PUA. Do I owe urb4n money for this?
I’m not sure this feel good attempt is working on some AM. We need to generate hope and purpose. I admit I’m at a loss. Some propose the PUA method. Other encourage personal empowerment by joining other movements. Then of course everyone advocate AM should just constantly improve themselves and broaden their experience. Still seems to me like just a big waiting game. The status quo is a stubborn beast.
Which is why everyone was completely shocked that Grace Park is married to a Korean. Imagine that.
That fact that it’s come to the point where AF/AM dating and marriage is irregular warrents concern.
Point being, AF don’t care. In fact, they want to be with the masters of the universe.
Um… good luck with that. Let me know how that works out.
That guy she’s with looks pretty gross, btw. But he’s white, so that makes up for it, amiright?
[Create art around the Asian women you meet to express your feelings.]
I enjoy your blog. But no offense…just…ewww..whatever this is supposed to be…it needs to stop.
That guy looks familiar…. Wait! isn’t that Siegfried???
Urban:
Your sole basis for contending that “Asian females don’t care. In fact, they want to be with the masters of the universe” is your personal experience, not to mention those experiences are filtered through a pre-set bias.
You’re on the lookout, consciously or subconsciously, for Asian females who act in a way that confirms your point, and then gloss over or simply refuse to consider the Asian females who don’t. Grace Park is not an anomaly, nor is Yunjin Kim, nor is Yiyun Li, nor are the dozens upon dozens of other Asian female pop stars and famous actresses all across China, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Japan who are married to Asian men. You only pick up on the ones married to the whites, prop them up as the norm, ignore every statistic that other commenters here present to you, and say, “See? My perception of reality is the absolute truth. And if you don’t agree, then it’s just because you don’t get me. You don’t understand.”
Is there a problem with a significant percentage of Asian females believing that white males are superior to Asian males and therefore by marrying white, they are elevating their own social status? Yes. Is this attributable to racism? Yes, along with classism. Should Asian males sit back and do nothing? Of course not. I acknowledge the sentiments set forth in these posts. I also acknowledge that, as you say, I don’t “truly understand” because I’m not an Asian male. But to summarily deny Asian women acknowledgement of their activist work simply because you’re mad at the world cheapens the hard work and efforts we’ve put in, it cheapens the progress we’ve made.
Jae:
I’m going to have to agree with the previous commenter that this talk about creating art around Asian women and what-not is getting a little too soft-pudding to suit you.
Um, I don’t think I would have many objections if someone wanted to create art around me…
@ RCRabbit: lol!
Jaewhan, your message channels the Sermon on the Mount. It is a variation on “turn the other cheek” and “love your enemy”.
On a more fundamental level, it appears we do agree on something. That they are, indeed, an enemy.
“Jaewhan, your message channels the Sermon on the Mount. It is a variation on “turn the other cheek” and “love your enemy”.
You’d be surprised at how often those very principles have helped me to get ahead in the real world.
You’d be surprised at how often those very principles have helped me to get ahead in the real world.
Myself I prefer the sentiment expressed behind this verse
“Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” Matt 10:34
Christ even had a little something to say about the “community”
For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me
Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 12:51-53
Whoever leaves their family will inherit everlasting life. And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
But many that are first will be last, and the last first. (Matt. 19:29-30)
“To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven; A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;” (Ecclesiastes 3:1-3)
Perhaps now is a time to build up, Kobukson. “…Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” (Matthew 26:53)
Zoopath:
I know! Dude’s not even a musician!!! King’s right…Siggy, this could be your lucky day!
TZ, Max, and RCR:
Haha! What can I say? I’m a romantic at heart. I’m a lover, not a (MMA) fighter.
By the way, I think Asian cultures tend to emphasize romantic art, even if not passionate art. If you look at history, Chinese scholars and the like were always penning poems. It goes beyond race too–Russians, even the strongest soldiers, have a fascination with Pushkin. Maybe this’ll be kind of like a back-to-our-roots kind of movement?
Kobukson:
1. I don’t think I ever said AM and AF were our enemies. That one club, the AFCU, may have an embargo against us, but it is what it is. It doesn’t define either us or them as an axis of evil. In fact, one reason to show love is to create goodwill.
2. So the answer to the IR disparity is…to turn to Jesus? I think the Asian Rake should’ve pulled out a Hail Mary once he saw that Jamie was just using him to talk ish about Singaporean men, but I have no idea where to even begin with turning to Jesus. I’m totally confused. Please clarify. What in the Lord’s name does the Lord have to do with the Asian Female Celebrity Union?
@ King: You’re too cool for words. I saw your response to Kobu and smiled so hard my cheeks now hurt.
Just spreading the gospel of common sense (as I see it)
@jaehwan
“Haha! What can I say? I’m a romantic at heart. I’m a lover, not a (MMA) fighter.”
You can be both! Be the romantic warrior. I am reminded of football Hall of Fame running back John Riggin’s induction speech. I was struck by it, not just because I was/am a Skins fan, but because he showed there was a duality in the man, that he was much more refined and intelligent than what is typically portrayed on the field:
‘To everybody else I say, if I have offended you over the years, I really haven`t meant to. The news of my craziness has been greatly
exaggerated. I am the brute with a woman`s soul—my MOTHER’S.’
As a counterbalance to the Gospel quotes and a call to arms, I leave you with this:
“I have sought love, first, because it brings ecstasy—ecstasy so great that I would often have sacrificed all the rest of life for a few hours of this joy. I have sought it, next, because it relieves loneliness—that terrible loneliness in which one shivering consciousness looks over the rim of the world into the cold unfathomable lifeless abyss….”
Bertrand Russell
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It’s not.”
Dr. Seuss wins.
Jaewhan,
It is really hard to take you seriously on this because your words, as warm and fuzzy as they are, also ring hollow and empty. You keep insisting that there are righteous Asian women out there (doing something…I don’t know what) but all you can do is post about Zhang Ziyi, Jamie Yeo, some anonymous Asian female writer married to a white guy, and now this new chick Jarah Mariano, whom I’ve never heard of before. What else is new, bro? It stands to reason that if you’re gonna be preaching the message that you are, that is, to unconditionally love and welcome the prodigal bitches with open arms, perhaps you ought to start off by showcasing examples of righteous Asian women who are fighting the good fight, as it were. But you don’t. Because you can’t. Search high and low and much as you want, they simply don’t exist. All we are left with are the Zhang Ziyi’s, the Jamie Yeo’s, the Jarah Mariano’s, and Asian female writers married to a white guys (TM), etc. I’m sure there will be plenty of others like them.
How many more examples of this must we see before you finally get it?
I do not think the solution lies in indulging in sentimental, touchy-feely, warm fuzzies. I believe the path to a solution lies in first honoring Truth. Not what we want to believe. Not what we like or prefer. Not wishful thinking. Not what makes us feel better. But rather the hard and gritty Truth, as unsavory as it may be to swallow it.
The reason why I quoted Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 12:51-53 is because most people think blood is thicker than water. No. Truth is thicker than blood, and always prevails in the end. You are saying that we must love and honor and engage (more about “engage” later) our Asian sisters because we share the same Asian “blood”, belong to the same community, because we are part of the same “Asian family”. No, we must first love and honor Truth. And what is the Truth?
This word love gets thrown around too easily. Let’s examine the opposite of love which is hate. They are often flip sides of the same coin. You can love those who hate you. But AFs don’t hate us. No it’s something even worse than that. The thing that is worse than hate is indifference. At least, hate acknowledges your very existence. If someone is trying to do active harm to you out of hatred, they are engaging you. Sure, they may be trying to kill you or something, but at least they are engaging you. And if you are the sort to turn the other cheek, you may engage them back with some manifestation of love. But you cannot engage the indifferent. Engage what, exactly? The soothing sound of crickets?
AFs are indifferent to AMs. That is a fact. Truth hurts. This intra-gender dialogue that you speak is largely a monologue. It’s the sound of one hand clapping.
The only way to “counter” indifference is to be indifferent also. The frame of reference of IR debates must shift away from being centered on AFs. You spend a great deal of effort talking about the AFs who, in reality don’t give a damn about your “love” or whatever, but not nearly enough about AMs. You are correct that love must flow out of abundance. Tell me, what abundance?
Let us not indulge in woolly, air-headed fluff. We must take the hard and narrow path to freedom. Let the Asian women do what they do best, which is running a full-time, non-stop Affirmative Action Program of Pussy for white guys. We have no time to be hand-wringing or doing all manner of dog-and-pony tricks to try to “engage” them. We must focus on the Asian Male condition, our emancipation, road to freedom from baggage, from soul-sickness, and from bullshit. Seek the Truth and it shall set you free.
I also forgot to mention, if you think that showing love to them, doing “good works” for them, etc – and, what’s more, expecting nothing in return, well that’s exactly what you’re gonna get. Nothing. Give me a break. Be a little humble. We’re not Mother Teresa. We’re not Ghandi. We’re human, half animal and half spirit. Paul talks about agape love, the concept of loving unconditionally and expecting nothing in return. Only God is capable of agape love. I look in the mirror and the last thing I see is a Saint. I’m sure most of you have realized this by now. All this saint-talk looks pretty in theory, trying actually doing that in the real world and see how far you get. Much of us won’t last past the first lap, if at all. You try loving them and what you’re gonna get is a long series of one disappointment after another. You’re setting yourself up to be a far more bitter soul than even I will ever be.
Ah…Bertrand Russell. He of the Un-Church of the Flying Teapot, is it not?
I also enjoy Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens, and others. I’ve always privately thought that Christians would do well to read more Evangelical Atheism. What good is it to remain purely in insular Christian circles, exchanging meaningless and trite Christian cliches? It’s worthy of a mature mind to know what the other side is thinking. One’s beliefs and faith must be exposed to aggressive and robust opposing viewpoints, stress-tested to the max. If one’s belief system and faith collapses as a result, then it was a house of cards resting on a foundation of sand, not hard rock, to begin with. But if one’s belief system and faith emerges unscathed, if one is able to deconstruct and dismantle the opposing worldview, then your philosophy has undergone a refining fire. You emerge having a much better grasp of why you believe what you believe. This is why structure debate is essential.
Atheism versus Faith, now there’s a meta-conversation that is strong, vigorous, and kicking, not like our lame IR “dialogue”, which is the largely the sound of one hand clapping (or fapping, as it were). Want to know the reason why there are little or no Righteous Asian Babes? Asian women, being as well the world’s most passive-aggressive creatures, generally lack the intellectual wherewithal and moral conviction to effectively defend anything or stand for anything. They are simple creatures really, easily impressed by superficial displays of power or prestige. There is no morality, no “right” or “wrong” for them in the IR disparity debates. Just Might makes Right, or White is Right, as it were. Hear no Evil, See no Evil, Speak no Evil.
If I took that bait, buddy, then you’d be right.
If I took that bait, buddy, then you’d be right.
Well, except for you, of course.
Lightening does strike every once in a while. You, dear, are a statistical anomaly, which is another way of saying you’re a damn miracle.
I’d much rather discuss handbags, design, form and function, and shopcraft with you though. I have other interests, believe it or not.
Bertrand Russell was a little wacky, from what I recall reading about him.
Anyway, I’m kind of saying the same thing you are but coming from a different perspective. I’m saying, instead of staring into the abyss, pull away and find your happiness where you can. I have no pie-in-the-sky illusions, nor am I turtling—receding into my shell. I choose not to be so vehement against AF’s. I recognize certain circumstances, I process it for what it is, and I let it go. I simply don’t get hung up on whether or not an AF can be righteous.
Our knowledge is all rooted in our varied experiences. Expand your knowledge by expanding your experiences.
“Lightening does strike every once in a while”
Wrong again Kobukson!!! Lightening has gone quite commercial.
http://www.bestasianskinlightening.com/
The comments section is just a continuation of previous comments.
I think the other side is precisely the reason why minorities are not able to get anywhere. Instead, they use a copout where excuses are in place to justify their current position.
“Turn the other cheek.”
That’s most likely coming from someone who cannot fight back anyway.
Also, TZ, I am not mad at the world, just your demographic.
Urbs,
How can you say you’re mad at her demographic? I think you need to specify: “I’m mad at the Asian Female Celebrity Union.” That’s really it. You’re not mad at TZ, are you?
Have you read that latest book by George Soros? He talks about reflexive statements. A reflexive statement is one that influences the subject that you’re talking about. Saying “the weather is nice” or “I have five bucks in my pocket” is non-reflexive, since it doesn’t change the facts. Saying “you are my enemy” could make someone your enemy.
Do you see how your statement is reflexive? Conversely, if you, urban, were to say, “Asian women are beautiful,” that would be reflexive too.
By the way, the comment section may be a continuation of previous comments, but the article itself has brand new eye candy (haha…well, half the Jarah Mariano pic is eye candy anyway.). Glass half full!
Kobu, man, in my defense, I do post about these righteous Asian women. I post about them all the time. (I assume you mean dating Asian when you say righteous? I define it slightly differently, but I’ll use this def.). Keep in mind that I agree with you that there are very few Asian female celebrities married to Asian men–hence my issue with the AFCU–but when there are, I post on them. Check the last month. I posted on Yunjin Kim and Cindy Cheung. I also mentioned Grace Park when talking about Hawaii Five-O. You must’ve seen my post on Maggie Q (whom I heard dates Asian men). I think the issue is that people comment more on Ziyi, Jamie, and Jarah. My posts on the positive women are definitely there though.
No, that’s not what I’m saying! Of course, I think it helps the culture…that’s definitely true. But I think we must love and honor and engage because we LOVE Asian women! We’re attracted to Asian women. This was my point with Zhang Ziyi and the Invisible Chain. We’re chained, bro!
I agree 100% with your analysis on indifference. Indifference is much worse than hate, and that’s what we often face–notice I say “often,” not “always”–when we interact with Asian women.
I don’t think that indifference is the only way to counter indifference. Sometimes it works, most def. But a more efficient way to combat indifference, I believe, is through expression. Will they ignore good art? Even if they do, someone will take notice, maybe someone outside the community store. I say that this is more efficient because it makes you stronger. Anyone can become indifferent by deadening their passions in life. But what about those who develop those passions instead?
I think that if you expect nothing, you sometimes get nothing. But sometimes you get more than you thought you would get. It’s happened to King as you saw from his comment, and it’s happened to me.
And you again compare TZ’s existence to the lottery. Do you honestly believe that there are that few good Asian women, and that you just happened to meet the “miracle” here on this website? What about RiceCakeRabbit, who has added some great commentary. Think of how few Asian Americans even know about bigWOWO, and you’re saying that some miracle just happened here? I think you need to go looking around. Sure, the Asian Female Celebrity Union is huge, even among non-celebrities. But there are many good Asian women as well.
They just need you to give them a chance.
I have a totally irrelevant question, but doesn’t God damn you to Hell if you don’t believe in him? I’ve always wondered about that. It seems pretty conditional to me.
AMs have supportive for some time and continue to be. By “supportive,” I mean “tolerating all the massive idiocy AFs deal out.” My point is to cease and desist our current operating procedure and perform a 180.
Also, your damn right I meant the entire demographic. 50% of the apple is rotten and the other 50% has made no progress in containing it. Therefore, ditch the apple and bite into a pear.
Just the other day, my cousin called me dangerous because they can see the amount of influence I have over the younger generation of family members. It means something I’m doing is working.
Also, your damn right I meant the entire demographic. 50% of the apple is rotten and the other 50% has made no progress in containing it. Therefore, ditch the apple and bite into a pear.
…but what if you like apples?
if 50% of asian women eat pears, we asian men can learn to eat pears as well. as long as the fruit is healthy, it doesn’t really matter what type you eat.
Actually, only 41%, Asian guy
“I have a totally irrelevant question, but doesn’t God damn you to Hell if you don’t believe in him? I’ve always wondered about that. It seems pretty conditional to me.”
No, God doesn’t, but people who wield power in organized Christianity do. See, the problem is, a lot of people think Christianity and being Christian rests solely with one document. Not true.
to understand Christianity better, you have to look at and delve into religious history; once you do, you realize how much was edited out or edited into the modern day bible by the Council of Nicea and church hierarchy deciding for the people what is heretical and what’s anathema. And yet, there are lots of ancient texts from Nag Hammadi, the Dead Sea scrolls, other mystical Christian sects like the Essenes and the Gnostics who have very liberal and inclusive teachings and writings declared heretical. All of it dismissed and not even considered as what may be part of the Truth.
Well, if you like apples, just know that you’re eating a rotten apple which is very likely to get you sick.
41%
50%
Stop splitting hairs. 41% is just as much as a concern as 50%, guy.
No one has even touched upon what is causing AFs to date outside so often and the answer is pretty obvious. Let’s see if someone can use a little common sense and explain why.
Additionally, all this stupid and retarded Asian American “community” activism is all pointless until you solve this problem first. Let’s also see if someone can explain why that is.
Also, to Asian people, don’t even explain to me how Asian Americans have made strides. You haven’t. All the rights you enjoy today came from the black civil rights movement, not from your own doing.
You simply rode the black community’s coattails.
If not, please explain to me why no one can take Asian Americans seriously unless black people are involved?
urbs,
Didn’t you say that you’ve never even eaten apples, and that you’ve only bitten into pears and other fruits?
Apples themselves are maybe 41% core, but some people still prefer apple pie to banana pie. This would be the case even if 50% of apples were rotten. (although I like banana pie.)
Did he say this in a good way or a bad way? “Dangerous” usually has a negative connotation. Does your cousin agree with what you say?
I still can’t understand your anger at the entire demographic. Even Kobu agrees that SOME women are doing things to counteract it, even though he thinks that number of women is small. What about Yunjin and Grace? Aren’t they doing something positive? What about Vicki Shu Smolin who, even though she probably married White, has been active against bad media? I think we all need to look beyond the surface.
By the way, everyone, I think I like “Asian Female Celebrity Club” better than “union.” I may change it. It rolls off the tongue easier, and you can say funny things like “join the club.”
Urbs,
Didn’t kobukson speculate that it was about father issues?
If so, the answer in the future (I don’t think anything is going to save us in the short term other than “working on your mack” and improving yourself) is better parenting. Maybe we could help through the media too.
I think someone else said it was self-esteem issues, which I don’t agree with.
Well, nothing came from my own doing. Even if I were black, I’d say that it came from something that I personally had no stake in.
I did once have a party at my house, though, and an Asian woman met an Asian guy there. They’re now engaged. Does that count?
Okay, I changed the title to “club.” It was bothering me the whole night. If you’ve done as much writing as I have in the past few weeks, you realize that sometimes there’s a perfect word for the meaning one wishes to express, and one needs to find that word.
Fuck celebrities. It’s pervasive on a social-macro level. This is the kind of bullshit that Asian men have to endure not just in the world of celebrities but everyday goddamn life. These kinds of Asian women, such as the one below, are rejecting ALL ASIAN MEN because of their relationship mishap with one guy. Then they place the blame on an entire group as way to “get even”. Its a fucking cop out. Women like this need to be verbally shit on.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/w4m/1774313699.html
Another asian girl in search of a white guy – 29 (oakland piedmont / montclair)
Date: 2010-06-03, 8:12PM PDT
Reply To This Post
Yes. It’s true; There are a lot of us. Feel free to blame it on my ex-bf who turned me off from asian guys forever.
I’m 29. Never been married. No kids. And I have a ridiculously cute dog. I went to grad school and have a great (yet time-consuming) job that I actually enjoy, which means – I’m financially independent and busy enough so that I live my own life and won’t take over yours. I’m Korean, 5’4, with big boobs, a nice butt and relatively height/weight proportionate. I’m definitely snarky, so I need someone who can roll with the punches and make me laugh. I listen to NPR, drink too much coffee and love stupid reality and like movies most people are too embarrassed to admit that they watch. I like good food, good wine, live concerts and miss having good company to share it with.
You are: 30-40. Single. Taller than me. Bigger than me. Not looking for a girl who’s tiny or petite (that’s not what I am). You’re funny. You’re not a wall flower. You’re educated – grad school is preferred. You know “stuff” – enough stuff so that we can actually hold a conversation. Please be a professional, ambitious, and career oriented. I want to make partner, so you have to understand why I work long hours. You must love dogs and hate cats. You’re willing to go on last minute weekend trips with me. You’re an all around good guy.
I can’t wait to meet you.
Urbs, I was going to say the same thing, that Kobukson made some very interesting analysis of one possible factor (although there are probably many)
“And again, I don’t want to pretend to be some expert on this because I’m not. But since you brought this up, I’d like to have some input if I may.
I sense that much of this has to do with “daddy issues”. Many of us grew up in the typical strict Asian families, where fathers were often hard traditionalists or disciplinarians and perhaps even a tyrant. Our fathers did not know how to show love or kindness and perhaps this is a critical thing that affects daughters more than sons and can set the stage for how she will relate to men (esp Asian men) later in life.”
Again, I think it’s not the WHOLE reason, but it certainly might contribute significantly, in the same way that fatherlessness contributes to a host of sociological problems in the Black community.
MaSir, why do you ALWAYS torture yourself by scouring the craigslist personals for these??? We all know that those adds are out there—thats why they call it a disparity!
O.K. I have to ask a stupid question: Is the concept of “Collective Responsibility” stronger in Asian cultures/communities than it is in Western culture overall? I realize that this concept exists (to some degree) in all cultures, but in the West, it seems to be strongly counterpoised by the long-standing tradition of Individualism.
I’ll give you an example of Collective Responsibility:
If a Black guy mugs you in Central Park, and then a year later, your wallet is stolen by a Back female drug addict. Finally, one night, you’re taking the subway home through Brooklyn, when you are harassed by a large group of teenagers— 5 out of the 8 are Black. At that point, you’ve had it! You shout to the heavens, “THAT”S IT!! I gave Black people a chance!! Now I HATE them ALL!! I’ve read that those people have higher crime statistics than the norm!!! Just keep ALL of those animals away from me!!
- I will never hire a Black person, EVER! (You just can’t trust them!!!)
- I will never patronize any Black business (They’re all dishonest!!)
- I will never have any Blacks as friends!!! (Too dangerous!!)
- If I get a Black doctor, I’ll make some excuse (and go elsewhere.)
- I will OBVIOUSLY, OBVIOUSLY, never, ever, date one of them!!
Now, an Individualist might have the exact same set of experiences as the Collectivist, but because they see the world in terms of individuals rather than categories, they might also consider their close friends who are Black, and their Black coworkers. They might notice that several of the police officers who responded to mugging call were Black. They also might notice that the teenagers in the subway also harassed a very well-dressed, Black woman.
Therefore, the Individualist may come up with a somewhat different set of conclusions:
- I need to move out of this high-crime neighborhood as soon as possible
- Walking through this part of Central Park alone is not a good idea after 5:00
- Chances of getting hassled on the Brooklyn subway are a lot higher than in Manhattan, especially after school is out.
In one case, the crime victim is looking for ethnic group-associated patterns, in another, the person is looking at the behavior of individuals relative to time, place, and circumstance.
So, from the standpoint of a belief in personal/individual responsibility, we can judge that an Asian female, making judgements upon all Asian males, based on one experience—or even on all of her own experiences—is neither logical nor fair. But in the EXACT same way, it is equally illogical for an Asian male to search for discriminatory ads on craigslist as examples of the actions of ALL Asian females.
Holding people collectively responsible, based on racial, gender, national, religious, or cultural, categorizations simply doesn’t work and it doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t work.
first of all, craigslist is the last place i’d look for dates/relationship. isn’t that a place riddled with psychopaths and killers? so what does that tell you about that mutton headed AF? first of all, it tells me she’s dumb as rocks. second, she has no inherent value. she’s insignificant. a piece of dog shit on the sidewalk is more meaningful to me than someone like her.
but in regards to the root behavior/motivation of AF who date out, don’t you think it also has to do with how well assimilated they are? what generation AA they are as a factor? I figure by the time you get to second, third gen, fathers aren’t so typically old country anymore. unless they’ve been living very insular and haven’t become assimilated into the mainstream culture themselves.
how about we blame it on the lack of a true AA community where a lot of us second, third, even fourth gen types are whitewashed to a large degree. we didn’t have enough cultural icons of our own growing up, no positive Asian male figures. or that for some of us, we had no AA peer group to hang with. fully assimilated and acculturated into the white mainstream society, we down play our heritage because we don’t want to be seen as being different to our white friends, that we are just as “American” as they are. and how about the constant bombardment of media images (negative for AM’s, positive for WMs) that skews perceptions?
we fell into the white man’s trap that the Native Americans resisted for so long after they became a conquered peoples—they tried to indoctrinate the Native kids in the white man schools, forced the white man’s god upon them, and outlawed their speaking in their native languages, etc…
my feeling is that what motivates some AFs who date/marry out is the reality that they don’t know who they are, so they think they’re white. on some level, they are full of self contempt because they don’t see their attitudes towards AM’s is an insult to their fathers, their brothers, all the males in their families.
i remember a few years ago at a house warming party for a friend of mine, i ran into an AF there who had worked with my friend some years ago. I talked to her a bit and found out she was adopted by a white family as a baby. She plain out told me she wasn’t Asian, she was white. She had no connection to her Asian side. This, despite having the map of Asia all over her face. This is a huge problem. You’re acculturated to be white, like her, and there’s no way to change who she fundamentally is. She can’t SEE that she has an Asian face!
“Okay, I changed the title to “club.” It was bothering me the whole night. If you’ve done as much writing as I have in the past few weeks, you realize that sometimes there’s a perfect word for the meaning one wishes to express, and one needs to find that word.”
I was going to suggest, “cabal”, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
MaSir,
I think it makes sense to read between the lines of this woman’s ad.
Taller than me. Bigger than me. Not looking for a girl who’s tiny or petite (that’s not what I am).
If a woman who is 5’4 has to specify that she needs a man who is “bigger” than her, I think it usually indicates that she’s quite big. Even if you were White enough to meet her criteria, you probably wouldn’t be able to carry her across the threshold anyway.
I had a pretty short and sweet discussion about this with one of my friends. He set me straight. Indeed, ya’ll are correct in that I am torturing myself in browsing CL personals. However, I believe CL is also indicative of societal trends as a whole. Most people on there say how they truly feel whether its righteous, wrong or ugly.
Just today I went out and saw so many white guys with Asian girls in the bay area. Even one of my friends who doesn’t care for the trend noticed and made a joke about it.
But my friend broke it down to me as plain Jane as one couple possibly put it. When all is said and done, you can only improve on yourself and your Game, nobody elses. Don’t waste your precious time and energy complaining about the injustices about it and focus on overcoming that hurdle by taking action. I had to agree with him because lately I haven’t been…
Mojo Rider- You nailed one thing that I feel many AA women hate to admit: it’s about status. Asian women with low self-esteem try to compensate. Just like Gucci bags and Prada shoes, white boy friends/husbands are the must-have accessory to show how far they’ve “advanced” in western society. It’s also another way to rebel/distance themselves from their heritage or anything that makes them seem “fobby”.
I’ve noticed that a large number of AA women with white boyfriends are also hopeless fashion whores. Having to fit the definition of ideal womanhood according to a purely orientalist and sexist viewpoint makes it even worse. It offers an easy way (and some AF believe it’s the ONLY way) to assimilate into white society. So, these AFs play up the stereotypes which only reinforce the established racial hierarchy.
Mojo Rider wrote:
we fell into the white man’s trap that the Native Americans resisted for so long after they became a conquered peoples—they tried to indoctrinate the Native kids in the white man schools, forced the white man’s god upon them, and outlawed their speaking in their native languages, etc…
you are really comparing this to Native Americans?
they had their (and they are not all the same) lands invade. Most Asian people came here by choice.
There is nothing wrong with pointing out the unfairness or extra burdens that some people bare but I have to agree with MaSir Jones, in the end you need to focus on your game. You can’t just talk about “The White Man” you have to improve yourself.
@masirjones
im staying in the bay area right now, don’t we also see a fair amount of AM/WF everyday? i see it everytime i go out, malls, restaurants, clubs obviously not as much as the reverse. Yet, AM/WF is definitely on the rise. i strongly believe that’s the solution. a bunch of us agree that a huge portion of AFs are tainted and overpriced to varying degrees. i think significant progress is already being made in regards to the disparity at least in the bay area.
@Lingyai,
I’m just throwing out impressions and ruminations on the AA condition. Perhaps the Native American comparison was too dramatic. Sure, one was enforced, one had a choice. But the choices some AA’s made to assimilate led to the result that the white man’s socialization policies wanted for the Native Aerican.
How many second or third gen AA’s can speak the language of their grandparents, their great-grandparents? What do we know of our immigrant past? What do we know of our spiritual past? In the effort to assimilate, we lost part of ourselves, the things that make us unique and turned blandly “American” in the melting pot.
I know where you’re coming from, but if you’ve read enough of my meanderings, I’ve never lashed out at “whitey” before and or have bemoaned being a victim. The past is a pile of ashes, relegated to the dustbin of history. The only thing we have is the present…and what you make of your time here on earth is up to you.
@Leon,
you wrote:
“It’s also another way to rebel/distance themselves from their heritage or anything that makes them seem “fobby”.
I think the FOB issue factors in heavily for a lot of behavior. In the desire to fit in, and bow to peer pressure, some of us denied a part of ourselves for fear of looking “different” or “foreign” or not “American” enough.
I’ve been guilty of that too in my past. And then I think now, “how stupid was that, to avoid other fobby Asians on campus? Who the fuck cares what my white friends think?” but I simply hadn’t evolved in my mindset back in college.
@MaSir:
you wrote: “But my friend broke it down to me as plain Jane as one couple possibly put it. When all is said and done, you can only improve on yourself and your Game, nobody elses. Don’t waste your precious time and energy complaining about the injustices about it and focus on overcoming that hurdle by taking action….”
That’s very true. It’s kind of what I’ve been advocating. Don’t waste time on people who wouldn’t waste their time on you. It’s almost impossible to change anyone, let alone an entire group. What you can do is change your response to that person or that group. Change really does start with oneself.
Your life is your own; no one else can live it for you.
Everyone here is right, to a defined extent. When Hubby and I go out, we, too, notice the landslide phenomenon of Asian females with white males in the Bay Area. We’ve been here for 6 years now, and we also noticed a steady rise in Asian male and white female pairings. And true, many Asians still see dating white as a symbol of status, comparable to driving a Porsche or carrying a $5,000 handbag. There are ways we can attempt to counteract these problems within our community, but all this fingerpointing, whining, and conclusory rhetoric won’t cut it.
Moreover, what I see going on here in these comments is what King calls collective responsibility. One would be hard-pressed to defend the person who concludes that all Blacks are criminal because that person got mugged by a Black person in Central Park. It’s unequivocal that such a person would be considered racist. That, then, makes a person racist when he concludes that all Asian females are rotten apples because he got his heart broken once or twice by an Asian female who incidentally left him for a white guy.
We can be so accusatory of other communities, especially the mainstream when they act racist, and yet when we behave the same way ourselves, that’s “not racism,” that’s either a “self defense mechanism” or some other nonsensical euphemism. Also, no one has really responded to King’s last comment, probably because he’s right and there’s not much more to say in rebuttal.
What disturbs me the most here is the run of unchecked racism going on in these comments and prevalent in a lot of the mentality of Asians and Asian Americans.
Similar to the Asian men here who declare that they will never again date, marry, or even think kindly of an Asian woman because said men have had to endure a history of Asian women who hurt them, too many Asian women think the same, reversed. It may have started with a father who was not an adequate male role model, leading on to heartbreaking interactions with Asian boyfriends, and so at some point she becomes guilty of collectively blaming all Asian men for her troubles. Yes, this kind of woman is denying herself many invaluable and otherwise beautiful life experiences, and yes, she is a cop-out, and yes, she is racist, maybe even classist, and yes, she will be limited by her rejection of truth-seeking. But so are the Asian men who are echoing those same sentiments here. This is why the blame game that people are playing doesn’t lead to resolution. It leads to more misunderstandings, more points of validation of one’s own racist views, and further widening the gender divide.
And please, don’t say you don’t care. That’s just the easy baloney response, the response that requires the least amount of thought to give.
TZ- to be fair, I believe Jaewhan hosts these discussions partly as a venue to let AM vent because there are so few outlets for our anger and frustrations. This issue isn’t anything new. But every time it’s been brought up in other blogs and forums, it’s been shut down by others and many Asians themselves who are afraid to rock the boat. Just look at the Fighting 44s- they made IR one of their major issues and they were regarded as the lunatic fringe by many in the community. It’s an uncomfortable topic and it’s bound to be heated.
As much as uRB4N and Kobukson may seem like extremists in their views, they do bring up good points and they press the right buttons to get people engaged in the topic. Too often, I see more “mainstream” sites tiptoe around the subject and failing to address anything because they’re afraid to lose their readership. This isn’t the case for Jaehwan and others like him, and love them for it. It may seem like a lot of pointless venting without any solutions in sight. But one thing everybody can agree to here is that the status quo is not acceptable, and I think that’s a good start.
But Leon, that still doesn’t account for all the “collective condemnation” that’s gone on. Would you say that White, blue collar workers, who were losing their jobs to minorities would be well served to come to a website and start “venting” about how ALL minority workers are worthless and lazy? Would you consider that to be a productive and OK way to deal with the tension?
You’re right, it isn’t productive to make blanket statements and collective condemnation. Asian men have been the targets of this collective responsibility for the longest time and it doesn’t help things any for them to inflict it on others. I do not condone this and I do my best to avoid similar language in my writings (and if I fail, I’m sure you and others would call me out on it). uRB4N and Kobukson, while making good points, do not represent all the AM who post on this blog. I hope others like TZ do not get such an impression and label everyone here collectively (there’s that word again!) as the same.
However, uRB4N and company do represent a section of the community that is rather underrepresented. I believe there are many out there like them and it is important to hear their anger to show the extent of the damage that this IR issue has done to both AM and AF. This isn’t as trivial as many would like to think. It shatters the very foundation of trust between the parties, and without that trust, it makes tackling other issues much more difficult.
I think uRB4N and Kobukson are both smart guys, and I like them both. I only disagree with their collective responsibility condemnations, but I take what they say seriously and certainly don’t trivialize it.
I just keep saying that like-minded Asians of both genders should stand together on this issue. I cannot understand why this idea meets resistance. What is so wrong with what I’m saying?
King, I don’t believe what you’re saying is wrong. Although I am pessimistic that there is any real unity in the AA community for like minded Asians to stand together on this issue.
It’s my feeling that the AA community is really fragile and barely exists were it not for the younger AA activists, those engaged in identity politics, and folks like jaehwan who blog to give voice to an AA perspective. Just my personal view, is all. I don’t speak for anyone here.
Someone e-mailed me today and compared the comments in this thread to the Kingstonian Tar and Feather post.
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/06/kingstonian-tar-and-feather/
I think it’s similar. Guys don’t like automatically being stuck with the Kingstonian “traditionalist” or “sexist” tag, the same way women don’t like being tagged with “sellout” or “white-loving.” You could say it of the old culture, and you can talk about how there are many who fall under that category (as with the Celebrity Club…”man, they just recruited another member! You too, Jarah?”), but I think it’s important to make certain that we treat individuals as individuals at the same time. People can and should be angry, but at the same time we owe it to others to recognize their individuality at the same time.
In other words, an Asian woman shouldn’t raise thousands of dollars for AA causes, get published on topics related to AM empowerment, speak from experience about life with Asian men, and then still be put in the same category as the Amy Tans of the world. We can talk positively or negatively about the culture as a whole, but we need to also put effort into recognizing peoples’ individuality.
What I say and do reflects only upon myself. If I do wrong, I don’t care. I just do what I believe to be in the best interests of my demographic. If you have something better, you can go your own way.
In response to your other post, I was referred to as “dangerous” in a bad way. And I relish it. I wish to do as much damage as I possibly can so that the Asian American community can see the results if they don’t talk about and fix this issue.
I want them to see the type of monster it can create. Now, if I was some pimple faced adolescent typing from his mother’s basement, I would be not be a dangerous threat. However, the fact that I am who I say I am, makes me much more dangerous because I am able to influence the next generation of AMs.
Lastly, while I do believe racism is wrong, I am a follower of Chris Rock’s quote “OJ Simpson killed his wife. It’s wrong but I understand.” Is it wrong for me to be hostile towards the entire AF demographic? Sure. However, is it understandable? You bet.
I’ve watched many AM have their confidence stripped from them because of this issue. To make matters worse, AF say that one of their biggest complaints is that AM lack confidence. That’s just insult to injury. Additionally, the ones being hurt would otherwise be your greatest advocate. The AFs who are trying to attack AMs because either a past slight, insecurity, or just “innocent” cluelessness cause these same AM to turn against you.
I once was a member of that camp. While I never dated an AF, I supported the group. During college, I was pretty hardcore about Asian America. I walked to class every day and sacrificed subway and bus fare so I can contribute to various causes, many of them AF oriented.
This is how you pay me back? By not only ignoring this issue but forcing other AMs to ignore this issue too?
That being said, I believe in collective punishment. After WW2, the Americans forced all Germans to visit the concentration camps. The naysayers of the Holocaust were brought to witness the death camps firsthand. The believers and supporters of Jews were forced to see them as well. Why? They didn’t do anything wrong. Why should they have to pay?
It’s so that particular group would press the world even harder to never forget what happened there.
Come back from the dark side, urb4n. You could do so much positive good if you would only allow yourself.
What I say and do reflects only upon myself.
But how can that be true when you are bent upon evangelizing “the next generation of AMs” to follow your example?
If I do wrong, I don’t care.
Yet, you demand that others make amends for wrongs done to you.
Lastly, while I do believe racism is wrong, I am a follower of Chris Rock’s quote “OJ Simpson killed his wife. It’s wrong but I understand.”
I understand why Hitler invaded Poland, but that doesn’t give me any
excuse to emulate his behavior. Understanding wrong doesn’t make it any less heinous, or give license to emulate it.
I once was a member of that camp. While I never dated an AF, I supported the group. During college…
Is all of this vehemence really based on second-hand information? If you actually dated an AF, you might find that the benefit of personal experience might offset your vicarious impressions.
That being said, I believe in collective punishment.
Then you should have no objection to being punished by the 41% of AFs for the actions and attitudes of a small percentage of Asian Males.
It doesn’t make sense. It’s not just wrong, it’s illogical.
because this thread needs one more post…
Mojo Rider said:
How many second or third gen AA’s can speak the language of their grandparents, their great-grandparents? What do we know of our immigrant past? What do we know of our spiritual past? In the effort to assimilate, we lost part of ourselves, the things that make us unique and turned blandly “American” in the melting pot.
First I would like to thank you for your reasoned response to my dissagreeing with you. To often in an discussion people lash back in a personal or forceful way when their point is not agreed with (including me, I have to stop myself sometime).
I don’t disagree that it would be nice if some people also learned the language of their foremothers and fathers but this is really not a AA exclusive issue. I hardly know anyone whose grandparents spoke a different language that can also fluently or near fluently speak that language.
Most Somali, Japanese, German, Bangladeshi, Swedish, etc 2nd, 3rd generation Americans can’t speak anything but English. I am not sure how Asian Americans have lost (at least in that regard) anything more than any other group. Now you could argue there are more Euro influences an culture in our society, but not language.
Nice going, lingyai. You had to keep this thread alive, didn’t ya?
True, the loss of language is not an exclusive issue to AA’s. It happens to all sorts of groups. But language is crucial to the culture, don’t you think? But language was just an example of falling into the double edge sword of assimilation. I suppose that I am really questioning what is American culture. And going with that thought, what is Asian American culture?
American culture consists of many sub-cultures. Is it really a melting pot? Does assimilation mean we all become this sort of bland go-along-with-the-majority-culture? And that was what I meant in saying the we all get lost in it, a part of what makes us unique disappears.
But then it makes me thing, well, just what the hell is AA culture then if we’re fully assmiliated? What are we doing that is so unique that it impacts upon the greater predominant culture, that sets us apart? Because Frank Chin is proven correct: we become honorary whites.
Also, TZ wrote in the Kingstonian Tar-and Feather thread:
“This article rubs me the wrong way because of the latent racism. It assumes that traditional values, portrayed here as negative, is Asian, and modern and progressive values, portrayed here as positive, is American. That’s where it begins to go wrong. ”
The way she phrased her point made me question, “Wait a minute. What does she mean by ‘American’? Did she mean ‘white’? Did she equate American = white? ” I bring it up not to argue with her over semanitcs but because I’m interested in the notion of identity.
I consider myself an American. I was born and raised here in the US, as were my parents. I am culturally American, even though I have a part of me that is aware and proud of my Asian heritage. My parents and aunts and uncles are the same way, although they are the last generation to speak Chinese (and not all that great either)and the last ones with the links to my family’s immigrant past. There is a bi-cultural pull because there is also no escaping that I have the map of China all over my face. But I sense that something is being lost, even if I’m not even steeped in Chinese traditions/customs. I also worry about my nephews and nieces—most of them who are Eurasian. It’s too easy for them to forget their Asian heritage and pass themselves off as “white”. Will they understand who they are, do they recognize they are also part Asian? That there is more to it than family gatherings at a Chinese restaurant? And who is there to teach them when their parents don’t know what to teach them?
TZ also wrote:
“As for Asian America– I believe both Kobu and Urban, and a few others declare that “Asian America is dead.” How do you say that in the face of strong evidence to the contrary? Asian Americans have formed tight-knit, supportive, and wave-making groups in the literary arts, performing arts, visual arts, the legal community, social justice, and even politics….”
I’ll agree, I don’t think Asian America is dead, but what is its culture? How do we define it? When I think of black culture, I see it imprinted all over the arts, especially in music. To me, rock and roll is black music. I dont’ care how far removed from the roots these genres get, it’s a different branch of the same tree: the blues. They invented jazz and blues, unique art forms that spread out to the world from America.
When I think of AA culture and its impact, I can’t think of anything that unique apart from the martial arts and its impact upon action movies. Cuisine—Asian food. but what else? What defines our AA culture?
Mojo:
By “Asian” I meant individuals born in Asia, though I am aware even that, treating Asia monothilically, is problematic, and by “American” I meant those of us born and raised here, those of us who identify more with the subculture, customs, and ideologies of America, regardless of our skintone or where our grandparents originated from, though I am aware even that, treating America monothilically, is problematic.
For me, and only applied here to my experience, there is an Asian American culture. The way I cook isn’t meatloaf-and-potatoes every night, and it certainly isn’t exactly my mother’s either. I’ve combined both. It really is fusion food what we make in my household now. For example, what’s in my kitchen cabinets. There’s the Asian ingredients that the typical white American household wouldn’t have–fish sauce, mirin, sesame oil, hoisin sauce, five spice powder, star anise, panko, soy sauce; and there’s the “American” ingredients that the typical Asian household wouldn’t have–there will always be a stash of potatoes, onions, carrots, and celery someplace, kosher salt, a canister of dried breadcrumbs, parmesan cheese, pasta shells, basil, parsley, tomato sauce. And I won’t get into the fortune cookie here, but do read Jennifer 8 Lee… cute book.
When I lived in a small New England suburb, I didn’t experience AA culture of any sort at all, but in the Bay Area, I sense it as distinct from both Asian culture and mainstream American.
Finally, Asian Americans speak with a certain inflection. I can get on the phone with an Asian American, especially one from a place with a strong population of other Asian Americans, and know immediately that they’re AA. I agree that AAs who grew up in a waspy white town won’t have that same inflection, and AAs who grew up in black or latino communities will have an entirely different inflection when they speak English. But there is a distinct way that Asian Americans speak, and it isn’t an accent or because they’re speaking English as a second language, that isn’t what I mean at all.
You’re right, Mojo, American culture is composed of many different subcultures, and one of them is Asian American. That’s still American to me. We’re not a melting pot, and also, that’s why in crit race they constantly talk about assimilation v. integration. Asian Americans have the tendency to assimilate and conform, rather than integrate. That’s why some of you may feel there is no “AA culture.” If more of us were willing to do something about that….
I don’t think there is an Asian American culture, because a culture denotes a commonly shared set of beliefs and customs. There may be a Chinese American culture or Vietnamese American culture, but no Asian American culture. For this reason I always refer to Asian American communities as opposed to Asian American community.
Now I think that there is an Asian American political and social identity, which was forged from the Asian American Studies movement. But an identity is different from culture.
TZ:
Yeah, what is that? I was watching Book TV a while back, and the author (don’t remember who he was) opened the floor for questions. I heard a female voice phrasing a long question for the author, and I told my wife, “I think the questionner is an Asian chick.” Then sure enough, it was.
On the other hand, I was covering for co-worker. His customer asked, “What’s your name?”
“I said, ‘Byron Wong.’”
She said, “You don’t sound like a Wong.”
I said, “What does a Wong sound like?”
She laughed. I laughed. I wonder if I were in that Book TV presentation whether someone at home might say, “That sounds like an Asian dude.”
TZ:
thanks for the clarification. it’s funny, the reason why I asked the “American = white” question was because of an incident I had once on business in Venezuela. I was there for about a week and was just jonesin’ for some Chinese food. I take a look in the hotel room’s phone book and sure enough, I find a restaurant. And I was also amazed at seeing how many Asian names I could find in the phone book as well.
Anyway, I get to the restaurant and they start speaking Mandarin to me (I know a little but come from a Cantonese background, even though I can’t speak Cantonese either). So I tell them that my Chinese is bad, I can’t really speak, so they start speaking Spanish to me. My Spanish is passable, not really great. But they were asking me where was I from and I kept telling them the US, that I was American. And that confused them. They asked me if I was Chinese and I said yes and so they kept asking so where are you from. Somehow, we switched over to English and I was trying to explain to them I was born in the US, that my parents were born there as well, it was my great grand parents that were from China. So I think they understood….but I confused them because I called myself American, and it seemed that their notion of American was white or something. So that word confused them when I self identified as being American first.
Alpha:
I agree with your assessment as well. I’m not really sure what unifies us because our experiences are so varied. What are we really rooted in? I think you’re right—there are communities, but not just one COMMUNITY we can all lay claim to.
Mojo:
I went through the same thing… in China. I speak Mandarin with an accent (you can tell I’m ABC), which then implicitly invites the question, “Where are you from?” If I say the US, or NY or CA, I get the dissatisfied shake of the head and, “No, where are you really from? Where are your parents from? Where are your grandparents from?”
So I started identifying myself by my parents’ homeland, Taiwan. To that, they said, “Ah, so you’re Chinese.” Vehement debate of cross-straits politics then typically ensued. =)
I self-identify myself as American also, sometimes Asian American, it varies, but always American. I do see Asian as the “other” sometimes, not because I think I’m white, hardly so, but because I just don’t identify with the same cultural idiosyncrasies of first generation Asian immigrants in the U.S., or Asians in Asia.
Alpha:
I’ve heard that for similar reasons, the term “African American” fell out of favor because first, it implied that anyone with black skintone in America was from Africa at some point. It leaves out the West Indian Americans, for one, and those with Caribbean heritages. There are also people from the Oceanic region who identify themselves as black, but aren’t African American. Finally, a privileged wealthy white guy from South Africa who moves to the States would identify himself here as “African American.” And when he checks that box on university applications, job applications, etc….oh my, don’t you get just a teeny bit heated in the collar thinking about it?
Both terms “Black” and “African American” pose unresolved issues. There’s no way to absolutely define what “Black culture” is or “African American culture.” I cannot recall if it was you or another commenter, but someone acknolwedged that there was an identifiable Black or African American culture. Then why not an Asian American culture, in spite of the experience of the Korean American being different from that of the Indian American and that of the Philippine American?
I cannot recall if it was you or another commenter, but someone acknolwedged that there was an identifiable Black or African American culture. Then why not an Asian American culture, in spite of the experience of the Korean American being different from that of the Indian American and that of the Philippine American?
Wasn’t me, but who can argue with that? African Americans had a unique situation where their cultures were stripped from them during slavery or suppressed. The absence of African cultures coupled with the common experience of slavery and racism developed a uniquely African American culture.
This isn’t to say Asian Americans can’t develop a common Asian American culture in the future, but I don’t think one exists right now. An AA culture would be the result of amalgamation as opposed to assimilation or acculturation, much like Hawaii. The only thing is that Asian Americans in Hawaii amalgamated into a Hawaiian American culture and identity as opposed to an AA one.
If amalgamation were to occur, then I see it occuring in California. There are entire burb cities like Monterey Park, Daly Cityand Milpitas where the majority of residents are Asian. I’m sure New York and Vancouver have burb cities like this, but California has cities where all the Asian groups are interacting and intermarrying. Outmarriage is not necessarily Asian with non-Asian.
Even with outmarriage to non-Asians, culturally and phenotypically the children of these IR marriages strongly identify as Asian. So this amalgamated community is growing. I don’t think it’s there yet to be called an AA culture, but it is growing.
TZ,
it was me that mentioned black american culture. And true, black or African American culture is not monlithic–at least not nowadays, but I do believe that there is a culture that is uniquely American and definitely rooted in black America. From the slang, to the music, to dance forms…black culture no doubt greatly influences the overall predominant white culture. You hear hip hop style music in commercials, in the movies; you hear the slang become part of the mainstream vocabulary.
Perhaps I’m confusing identity with culture. Like Alpha, I don’t think there is an AA culture. I don’t see anything uniquely Asian and yet soley rooted in Asian America, not imported from SE Asia. maybe it’s there, I just don’t recognize it. But perhaps there will be that amalgamation, sort of like Ridley Scott’s “Blade Runner”, where Los Angeles is portrayed as sort of a melange of cultures, as Alpha suggests. That AA culture is still in the process of becoming.
I am the person I am based on my experiences and environment. Maybe I grew up a little too “white”, but I am culturally an American. Like you, TZ, I don’t indentify with the cultural values of the first generation Asian American because I was born and raised in the US. But it’s easy to get lost and lose a sense of self. Especially when we have words like “ethnicity”, “race” , “nationality”.
When can we just simply….be?
King,
You’re still not listening. I do not expect AFs to make amends because if they did, I would not have the mentality I have now. Additionally, I *already* believe AFs treat AMs as an inferior demographic.
So, you see, it’s not illogical.
Well I’ll be damned.
I met a pretty hot Asian girl the other day who is actually only interested in dating Asian guys. She was saying how non-Asian (mostly white) guys give her a ton of shit for only dating Asian men. One of the arguments she hears most often is that that she is being close-minded. They usually follow up with a diss against Asian guys being scrawny or “small”.
Wow. They just want it all don’t they. Take take take take take…
I had to give her props and then ask for her number. LOL
SEEEE!! They’re not ALL bad, Urb4n!
Who knows, maybe you’ll run into one next! Good luck MaSir
I doubt this is a telltale sign of things to come but hey, who knows?
http://masirjones.blogspot.com/2010/06/ir-marriage-rates-on-decline.html
I find that this poem by Langston Hughes may be pertinent to some who frequent this board and many in the API “community” as well (though for different reasons):
A Dream Deferred
What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore–
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over–
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?
MaSir,
Let us know how it goes. Hopefully your success will encourage a whole new generation of new success. You’re part of the solution, man!
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saying not all ASIAN women dig white guys is a moot point since there’s already issues there of “native asian” women elevating asian WESTERN men akin to whites (sometimes even HIGHER on the hierarchy). so…
but the more pertinent issue is that asian WESTERN (e.g., asian AMERICAN) women so disproportionately marry white men. that is the real issue/problem that is being addressed here. asian AMERICAN men are not the same as “native Asian” men – for better or for worse. the problem is that asian WESTERN women (who arguably might “know better” having been presumably exposed to other asian WESTERN men) tend to conflate asian WESTERN men with “native asian” men and all the negative baggage of the latter (inferior, sexist, etc.) when in fact, most asian WESTERN men tend to be not unlike white western men – equally “liberal,” free-thinking… as well as SEXIST.
so….
internalized racism = on both sides of the equation – asian/asian american men & women. the difference is that in the dating/marriage market, asian/asian american WOMEN are still valued higher for all the ad-nauseum reasons (historical orientalization, gendered racism, etc.)
will this change? probably not, alas – indeed, eventually “hapas” will probably be as prevalent a social category as “latina/os” not a “bad” thing, per se – but if this leads to a lack of more honest discussion about the unfair balance of power in the dating/marriage game among asian/asian american men and women vis-a-vis other races/ethnicities/nationalities… then yeah, it’s BAD.
same thing with black women being dissed, of course.
we need more solidarity on THAT front, btw.
Nice to see someone be blunt and tell it like it is. It always drives me nuts when people talk about how all the AF/WM couples out there are ‘coincidence’. Just like all those highly-paid black ball players with white or otherwise light-skinned wives/girlfriends. All just pure coincidence. No racial sterotyping or trophy-seeking going on…..
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The AFCC thing is a symptom of your society’s power politics and racial hierarchies.
Trying to woo them back won’t work because you have zero power, your society has been structured that way via the media, and the media does this because its actually about global politics.
My humble suggestion is to stop watching TV, reading magazines and newspapers, and to focus on the people and community around you instead. Move elsewhere if your environment blows goats. Go somewhere you can really build a future and lay down roots.
A few months ago, my sister was denigrating her caucasian husband in front of us, calling him a dork, etc. I asked, “If he’s such a dork, then why’d you marry him?”
My sister replied, “So my kids would be half-white.” My wife and I looked at each other shaking our heads. My shallow sister forced a laugh to imply that she was kidding, but we all know how shallow my sister really is.
Raguel:
great suggestions. Though I should add that if you absolutely have to consume diversity-negligent mainstream media, do it in such a way that the perpetuators do not profit. In short: PIRACY!
A few months ago, my sister was denigrating her caucasian husband in front of us, calling him a dork, etc. I asked, “If he’s such a dork, then why’d you marry him?”
My sister replied, “So my kids would be half-white.” My wife and I looked at each other shaking our heads.
A white dork is still better than an asian dork, even though they’re both dorks, all other things being equal. The built-in advantage of white privilege is what tips the scale of female hypergamy towards whitey’s favor. Plus, there’s the evo-psych basis of females wanting to bestow their offspring with as much advantages as possible in determining mate selection. This is the answer to the ongoing riddle as to why many AFs claim “asian pride” in just about everything EXCEPT whom they open their legs to. Dorky WM > Dorky AM. It’s that simple.
AM simply have to have better game in order to compete with white privilege. No use crying that it’s unfair or whatever. It is what it is. Trying to educate them about “colonial mentality” or whatever is largely an exercise in futility. You’re actually boring them to death. Asian pride is abstract and largely meaningless in the face of stone cold reality and hard-wired biological imperatives. Asian pride says AFs should choose dorky AMs over dorky WMs. That is simply not going to happen. What’s better? An AM trying to “educate” his Asian sister about colonial mentality or the same AM equipped with game attracting her? Has a dull, long-winded lecture on colonial mentality ever gotten an AF hot and horny? I seriously doubt it.
I believe that an AM empowered with game would prevail over a dorky WM any day. Because just like “Asian pride”, white privilege is also abstract and largely meaningless, easily swept aside by the more compelling, real, and tangible demonstration of attraction by an AM learned in the Crimson Arts. If she has spent enough time with WMs, familiarity also breeds contempt. Their inherent dorkiness, which she can plainly see, overwhelms any hazy notion of white privilege.
But as long as AMs refuse to adapt and better themselves with desperately needed skills and improvement, AFs will continue to operate what basically an ongoing program of affirmative action pussy for white guys everywhere. By AMs not stepping up, competing effectively, and putting up a worthy fight, we’re basically letting it happen. Either choose to play or stand helplessly in the sidelines. Either adapt or you will have your genes weeded out mercilessly and unapologetically.
if you’re such a playa, then stop focusing on the AF sloppy seconds. got get some Euro models or something.
Soulsnax,
That’s horrible!
Unfortunately, she’s not the only one signed up for the embargo. Come back, sisters!
Unfortunately, she’s not the only one signed up for the embargo.
Byron, you really need to stop with this “embargo” crap.
Come back, sisters!
Yeah, that ought to do the trick.
God help us…
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I really agree with your article, nice work. I am not sure if the Asian women are discouraging Asian men for competition in the dating pool (because there’s so many Asian women and white men couples) or that non Asian women are racist to Asian men because of the negative stereotypes, but either way, as an Asian-American male myself of east Asian descent, I find it heart breaking to see the American media promoting favorable mixed race couples and hardly do I ever see an Asian man as a sex symbol but more as either a nerdy or weak business man, or an evil villain or martial arts expert, or a asexual comedic buffoon (i.e. all of Ken Jeong roles). Now we’ve all seen these negative images, there’s no avoiding that, but I do not believe by wooing Asian women by Asian men is the answer, no offense. I’m sure that would work for some Asian women but from my understanding about women in general, they do not care for guys that are seen as too nice, and that’s one of those negative stereotypes about Asian men being too nice (they’ll be seen as wussies even more). Now, I’m not saying we should promote Asian men to be mean, or that women don’t like nice guys, but the only way things would change in a country where you’re the minority is when you see a minority figure from your race as a sex symbol (whether it’s because of popularities from movies or music etc). Unfortunately, we are still not seeing any Asian male sex symbol other than maybe martial arts experts (which not everybody is into). I think for now, if you’re an Asian male living as a minority and are unhappy not to find a mate in your area, I suggest you do some research with areas where you find your race desirable. Obviously Asian countries would probably be the first to look at particularly Thailand and Vietnam. I’ve heard if you’re an Asian male from the states, you’re treated like a king there and you will be very privileged (probably more than white men). Also, not just Asian countries, but there are some European countries like Sweden, Netherland, France (though you have to the know the language) who find Asian men desirable. And eastern European countries like Belarus and Lithuania, the women there find Asian men very desirable for some reason. Even in Russia (though they’re becoming more fascists), the women there don’t discriminate on Asian men. I think this is due the fact that eastern European countries and Russia have had some mixed Asian cultures from the past. There are some south American countries like parts of Brazil and Argentina love Asian men. The countries I would avoid are English speaking countries like Australia, England, New Zealand, I’m not sure about Canada, etc. Most of the women there do not find Asian men attractive at all. Again, I think the reason is the negative stereotypes from Hollywood about Asian men as being unsexy from TV shows and movies, which many shows are aired over there. I hope my information was helpful, because I was doing some research of my own online as well lol.
This past summer I majorly got into Asian cooking. I notice all the female Asian cookbook authors also belong to the AFCC as well. AAARGH!
Haha! Which ones did you see?
This one isn’t:
http://rasamalaysia.com/happy-new-year/
Change we can believe in!
Try the recipes on Rasa Malaysia too, if you’re still doing the cooking. They’re pretty good.
It’s funny… in these books they express wonderful tales of the culture, nostalgia for the old kitchen habits of old relatives, the vibrant life in both the city and countryside, and sorrow that with modernization, some of this stuff is dying out—Asian culture is so wonderful, except for those pesky men! (Like Amy Chua, except with regard to the kitchen rather than parenting!)
Stir-Frying to the Sky’s Edge
Wisdom of the Chinese Kitchen
Thai Food and Travel
Viet World Kitchen
Not to knock the actual content of the books—the recipes are quite good, and really do teach well. But GRRR!! I wonder if it is because of the status they receive from being a published cook, plus the image of the traditional wife, somehow conspires to make this combination especially likely.
I saw Grace Young’s book in the library. Oi. Like I’ve said many times, if it’s just one, it’s no big deal. But hit after hit after hit after hit….it’s enough to make one theorize about the existence of a Celebrity Club!
This dating disparity thing, the more I look at, the more I think it is Asian men’s fault, or I should say it is Asian parents fault.
When I was a student, there was a young Chinese professor from China, not tall, not particularly good looking, who dated white girls all the time. I even saw him dated a pretty medical student. He helped his brother came to the US to study, then his brother started to date white girls too. There was also a short and kind of “ugly” looking Chinese graduating student in my school married to a Caucasian girl while he was still a student.
I don’t think white girls are that hard to date. What many AFs said are right, a lot of AMs don’t approach girls, or they only interested in attractive good looking girls. In this dating game, men have to approach, have to lead, have to perform the mating dance. This puts much more pressure on men, requires men to have confidence, skills and experiences. Unfortunately, most Asian parents won’t allow and won’t help their kids to date before the kids graduating from high school. So when in college, AMs lag behind their peers many years in skills and experiences needed for dating.
Actually, I think this lack of dating skills and experiences also put many Asian girls in disadvantage. Girls with attractive personalities or good looks will get a lot of approaches, they can catch up easily. But many Asian girls are not of this type, so they don’t get dates. Two of my relatives daughters are like this. They are already graduated from college, but never had a boyfriend. They are kind of pretty but not pretty enough to stand out, don’t have outgoing or attractive personality, don’t know how to flirt with boys, and yet they have unrealistic standards for boyfriends. I’m worried that they will get desperate when they are older and grasp whoever approach them, like some of my formal Caucasian colleagues did.
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@ChineseMom,
“This dating disparity thing, the more I look at, the more I think it is Asian men’s fault, or I should say it is Asian parents fault.”
Explain the $24000 question.
With white women it was some ridiculous amount … People actually study these things … see for example the Hitsch, Hortacsu, Ariely article on online dating.
All the empirical data not withstanding, finally we come the Asian Man. Why am I not surprised?
I guess, we pass the torch off to the PUA gurus.
Well, it seems like this is similar to the case of the Affirmative Action thing. I’m glad that one Chinese Mom is getting it. (Well, actually, my Chinese Mom did begin to get it, even if a bit late), we’re being held to higher standards all across the board, even by our own, in the dating game. In addition, we get a double-whammy because yes, the push for education and de-emphasis on social aspects really handicaps us both in the dating game and just in general, having the communication/people skills necessary to get ahead (the “bamboo ceiling”) in the workforce. I feel like I’ve spent the past few years playing catch-up, given my “Tiger parent” upbringing. I’m making progress, slowly but surely, but it shows, that social intelligence is something that really exists and must be developed separately. It doesn’t “just happen.” Even love that I have found is not trouble-free: people think of us as “easier targets” to “steal” girlfriends. Let the PUA people say what they will, but I don’t think getting into fights with acquaintances just to keep my girlfriend is at all fair.
“In addition, we get a double-whammy because yes, the push for education and de-emphasis on social aspects really handicaps us both in the dating game and just in general, having the communication/people skills necessary to get ahead (the “bamboo ceiling”) in the workforce.”
Everything is a trade off. But it’s hard to seek a balanced approach when you’re in the middle of a high stakes competition. If you seek to be a math genius, zero sum time expenditure says that you’re probably not going to be all that great socially.
The question is, was the trade off it worth it?
“… If you seek to be a math genius…”
Damn! Hollywood had me believe otherwise with that John Nash blockbuster.
Wait… my math sucks, relatively speaking. There is hope for me.
Not luck in math?
Maybe you’ll have to settle for being lucky at love!
King,
I do recognize that it is a trade-off, and I did my share of sacrificing and recognized the need to catch up. That’s ok, although yes, I think there is a better way to raise children, so they can be more well-rounded from the outset. But being socially behind is not the same as deserving to be treated with contempt (even when I have developed to the point where I can hold my own).
“Maybe you’ll have to settle for being lucky at love!”
I am.
In an ironic way, I find US society values humanity more and more, as Asian societies becomes more and more materialistic, career oriented. This must be the growth phase in the economy.
cdawg
Yeah, I tend to agree with you. In fact, it is probably even better to be moderately successful academically if you can be really successful socially.
In the end, your relationships with people are more important and more fulfilling than getting the highest level job. There are not many people who say on their deathbeds, “I wish I had gotten just one more promotion.” But many wish that they had lived happier, fuller, and more rewarding lives. And that usually means having deeper and more meaningful relationships.
And, of course, nobody should be treated with contempt, unless their actions are contemptible.
You may be right John, but in the end it doesn’t pay off. That $15,000 purse is just a purse, after all. Just like living in a big house with 3 extra bedrooms that nobody ever sleeps in, or buying so many clothes that you only wear them once— it doesn’t make you happy, you just work hard and die bored.
“In fact, it is probably even better to be moderately successful academically if you can be really successful socially.”
This I agree on an individual level. Look around you. Most of the CEOs are not the original creator of the ground breaking work. They are just the sales person. Most Business students are just the B students literally (pun intended). On the other hand, someone has to put in the effort for the ground breaking work that enriches everyones’ lives. A complete service society would not progress.
Its a cliche but if you find something you really like to do, then you do it for the fun of it. Its not a job anymore. It helps if it also pays the rent.
“And, of course, nobody should be treated with contempt, unless their actions are contemptible.”
LOL! I did want to point out that in mathematics, just like any other field, we have our heroes. It doesn’t require genius-level talent to have a good career in math, although to be good, it does take focus and work. Just like anything else… The issue is, rather, the instilled perfectionism. But, with the realization that most of my fellow graduate students were getting along fine socially, that’s what made me think: “Hey, they manage, so why can’t I?” And realizing that I certainly could.
@John,
I’m not sure where this $24000 number came from. If it came from an opinion survey, I would just say that in women’s OPINION(only a opinion in hypothetical situation) , a STEREOTYPICAL AM have to make $24000 more than a stereotypical white man to be the same attractiveness. So if those AMs who are not stereotypical AMs, or in real life, this number doesn’t mean much. I think PUAs at least got one thing right, that is when they say that women don’t really care about money or look. The superficial things like money, status or look count only when there is no attraction. If an AM has personality and character, it shouldn’t be that difficult for him to date any women.
On the other hand, if being a stereotypical AMs on average makes an AM earn $24000 more, then it is just a trade off, not that bad, right?
Since my kids started to go to school, I paid very closed attention to their social abilities development. I watched their Chinese friends and Caucasian friends growing up, saw how Caucasians raise their kids. The more I see, the more I am convinced that Chinese way of parenting screws up boys from beginning. We invest so much money and energy in children’s education and extra curriculum activities only to produce many wussy boys, not hunters. So, I think that AMs going to weekend Chinese schools or churches to educate Asian parents probably will be a more productive and efficient way to change AMs stereotypes than being a PUA.
@Chinese Mom
Chinese parents are great at raising sons with great resumes on paper or paper tigers. In the real world, your social networks are much more important than your SAT scores, class ranks and extra curricular activities that won’t amount to anything in adulthood.
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Are Asian men at all interested in Black or Hispanic women? Are Asian men playing the status game when they exclude them, just as Asian men complain that they exclude Asian men because of lesser perceived status compared to White men?
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“Are Asian men at all interested in Black or Hispanic women? ”
Yes however not as much as white women.
Black and Hispanic women are actually more receptive to Asian men than
White women.
I am Asian and am not interested at all in Black, Hispanic, or white women. Am I a sinner? I prefer racial purity, thanks.
And only the most insane PUA would say that women don’t care about money or looks because they do (looks much more than money). Money and looks are associated with status and PUA strategy for people who don’t have these things is to develop psychological tactics as to maximize the relative status of the male. Most PUAs overstate the effectiveness of these strategies and minimize the importance of physical attractiveness and wealth but they are selling something and must pitch hard.
“Black and Hispanic women are actually more receptive to Asian men than
White women”.
Just as low quality Asian and White women are more receptive of men outside of their race.
“And only the most insane PUA would say that women don’t care about money or looks because they do (looks much more than money)”.
PUA is supposed to give men some leverage in the dating/mating game in relation to their looks/status. An ugly PUA will do better than a ugly guy with no game!
bigWOWO,
Any stats on the % of Asian male celebs who date Black or Hispanic women? I am curious. Is it close to their percentage of the population (Black & Hispanics women’s percentage that is) or those they associate with in Hollywood? To what extent is this either due to 1) simple preference; 2), bigotry; or, 3), status mongering?
Thanks for your input.
AOR wrote: “I am Asian and am not interested at all in Black, Hispanic, or white women. Am I a sinner? I prefer racial purity, thanks.”
No that is perfectly fine.
bigWOWO:
Can you answer the questions raised in the comment @ September 9, 2011 at 3:28 pm
^ How may Asian male celebrities are there in the U.S.?
^
Not as many as Black or White celebs, but we do have a decent sample size which to work with. Let’s start with these:
John Cho
Russell Wong
Jason Tobin
Roger Fan
Parry Shen
Sung Kang
Will Yun Lee
Ken Leung
Aaron Yoo
Dean Cain
Bobby Lee
James Kyson Lee
BD Wong
Ken Leung
Rex L. Lee
Daniel Dae Kim
Kal Penn
Masi Oka
You forgot this guy:
James Huang
He’s married to a nice looking WF, and is good enough to put leverage against the hated AFCC.
http://www.alivenotdead.com/attachments/2011/05/07/15/352636_201105071503013.jpg
^
Why is it that WHENEVER Asian dudes consider IR dating they always exclude Black & Latina women. Are they that repulsive?
Interest/Fun:
I’ll try to make this more conspicuous on the front page in the very near future, but we’ve got a no-sock-puppets policy here. I know you weren’t intentionally trying to deceive anyone, but the policy is to make sure that everyone gets exactly one voice per person.
Thanks for your understanding and compliance.
And to answer your question, I don’t know what the percentage is for either of them.
John Ho: Asian Wife (Wikipedia confirms – Married 2006)
http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/2008/04/john-cho-kerri-higuchi-expecting/
^
I am sure that good-naturedly you never really thought much about it. Since you are not a Black or Latina woman you NEVER HAD TO.
Anyways, do you feel as if there is a double standard of sorts in the IR market? Of course I’m referring to how Asian men are allowed to shun Black women and Latina women yet celeb Asian women catch heat in parts of the blogosphere when they shun Asian men….further some Asian men complain about Asian women wanting to date Asian men because of “White privilege” or “status” but when Asian men do choose to date outside their race who do they choose and who do they shun & why? It seems to be like a near 0% of celeb Asian men date Black or Latina women.
Food for thought.
(As to the sock puppet, bigWOWO, I thought it would increase my odds of getting a response.
)
Russel Wong: Married to Flora Cheong
http://www.luxury-insider.com/uploads/news/0609-hkballet-01.jpg
King,
Thanks for the links. Can you find some examples of Asian celeb males married to Black or Latina women?
Fun,
Haha. Well sorry, I don’t know the answer. Wish I could help.
King,
John Cho? Go brothuh!
Sure! No problem!
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/2569/ff20GabrielleUnionJohnChow.jpg
In real life! LOL
Parry Shen: Asian Wife
http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/HRzhWWOJraw/14th+Annual+Diversity+Awards+Gala+Backstage/nqFciMzMj53/Parry+Shen
^%#$@#! What do you mean?? It doesn’t HAPPEN in real life!!!
Asian male celebs marry Asian women!
Sung Kang: Single no children, no girlfriend reported
Will Yun Lee : Oops, I spoke too soon. They sometimes also marry White actresses.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20438286,00.html
King & bigWOWO,
Why do you suppose Asian celeb males have an embargo on Black women, and to a lesser extent Latina women?
Now that I think about it the embargo extends downwards even to those who are not famous celebrities. In all my 29 years I can count the number of times I have seen Asian male / Black women couples in public (at the mall or wherever) on ONE FREAK’IN hand, LOL, and they were very light skinned Black women.
Parental pressure?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/welovedonny/5237006637/lightbox/
bigWOWO wrote:
“Haha. Well sorry, I don’t know the answer. Wish I could help.”
No offense but I am calling B.S. on this one! What does your gut tell you? What have your Asian buddies told you over a few beers? Come on, man.
Aghhhh Sh*#, don’t tell me this means that Steve Sailer is right? I remember reading his “Is Love Colorblind?” article many years ago…
In a weird way, Asian men appear to do better with Asian women under segregated environments (I am not trying to troll here). I have noticed that a lot of Asian dudes tend to stick together socially in multi-racial environments and I wonder if this is in part to help them date within race? I just thought I’d throw that out there…If you create a social circle that is entirely one race, dating tends to be more intraracial.
I grew up in a Black and Hispanic neighborhood in NYC. Most of the Asian chicks living there were exclusively dating White guys. And we are talking about a segregated ghetto with many disenfranchised minorities. It was somewhat awkward to see an AF/WM couple going inside a low income public housing project.
“Why is it that WHENEVER Asian dudes consider IR dating they always exclude Black & Latina women. Are they that repulsive?”
@ Fun9876:
“Anyways, do you feel as if there is a double standard of sorts in the IR market? Of course I’m referring to how Asian men are allowed to shun Black women and Latina women yet celeb Asian women catch heat in parts of the blogosphere when they shun Asian men….further some Asian men complain about Asian women wanting to date Asian men because of “White privilege” or “status” but when Asian men do choose to date outside their race who do they choose and who do they shun & why? It seems to be like a near 0% of celeb Asian men date Black or Latina women.”
I’d say there are two key facets to that.
Firstly, the unfortunate reality at the moment is that there’s not a huge level of interest in Asian men from Black and Latina women, and vice versa. Feel free to extrapolate on the reasons, but it’s a two-way thing. However, interest from one side would surely create some interest from the other.
Secondly, who dominates the conversation about IR and its disparity? Asian men, of course. So for all the legitimate grievances Asian men have, it’s all too easy to focus on rice chasers and “sell-out whores” while overlooking Asian men’s own contribution to the disparity – reluctance to date non-Asian women particularly Blacks and Latinas. As stated earlier, those women aren’t necessarily looking for an Asian guy, but they’ll hardly get a chance anyway because Asian guys mostly aren’t pursuing them.
Like you, I’d love to see some Asian male celebrities hooking up with Black and Latina women; suddenly it’d become a trendy thing to do.
Fun,
Exactly what Eurasian posted above.
Check out this old post of mine on his point #1. I was cross-linked by a major African American women’s site for a while, which added about 300 more unique visitors a day for nearly four days:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/02/where-the-black-man-is-kingflashforwards-ir-pairing/
Also check out this one about the invisible chain on his point #2:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/05/asian-women-and-the-invisible-chain/
Actually, this is less true that you think. I have heard a LOT of stories from Black and Latina women about how they tried to make it really obvious that they liked an Asian guy, but he never took the bait and asked them out.
^
Tks for the links & comments.
I guess my point is that it goes both ways, that is, Asian buddies actively tend to exclude people too, based on race. On numerous occasions Asian & White dudes have flat out told me they don’t like Black women; hell, even Black guys have said this. And I hear some White guys complaining about White girls going with Black men but even a greater percentage of them date outside their race, mostly Asian women and Latinas. Black blogger Soloist is not down with Black women, citing the fact that they tend to be more likely to be obese, and/or single mothers, which lowers their capital in his eyes.
See What I mean?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5xSlP2APMw
On the other hand, some Black women say that they’ve been leery because of what they’ve heard from some Asian women.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX6Xr6gdZZ0
What Soloist is saying doesn’t make sense.
If a girl was too fat for your taste, you simply would not approach her in the first place. Or if you learned that she was a single mother (and that’s not what you wanted) then you wouldn’t ask her out.
But You wouldn’t say, “I’m sorry, but you’re Black, and the chances of you being fat are just too high?”
“What are you talking about? I’m an aerobics instructor… I’m like a size 3!”
“Well, yes, but your DEMOGRAPHIC is fat!”
Ridiculous.
“I guess my point is that it goes both ways, that is, Asian buddies actively tend to exclude people too, based on race”.
Yes, Asians in general look down on Blacks and Hispanics. Even immigrant Asians don’t identify with them.
Yet some Asian guys complain about non-Asian women not giving them the opportunity.
Some of these videos just make me cringe.
It’s like these “Asian” guys are some sort of cute, ineffectual accessory that needs to be taken care of by some appreciative white woman, just like the pet chihuahuas you can keep in handbags. Look at those videos, they are just on display, there is no semblance that you can recognise them doing anything that people do. They are just there, looking at the camera, being there, while some white chick is gushing about how “asian” guys are cute (like pet chihuahuas?). Seriously, no man with any amount of pride and dignity would make a video like this. This could be a sign of a growing trend of nutlessness.
CRINGE
That black girl in the pink shirt is really hot. Your 2nd link.
@ Fun9876
Chicbeauty (from Youtube) is married to a Korean guy.
She talks about it a bit, here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGtll5Cb8-A
I find that among the younger generations, the old stereotyping have much less power.
For example: Jenna Rose is a black girl who admits to stalking Asian guys (so be careful)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95-x7xoFWB4&feature=related
Ok some of the videos I find more acceptable. They look like real couples in real relationships, and not all that over-wrought puppy love shit.
Ok I admit that some of these videos are very acceptable. I guess bumping into the wrong videos gave me a severe allergic reaction ROFL
But I still hope people don’t overdo it.
@ Raguel
Well, y’know it has to start somewhere right? And places like YouTube (where anybody with a webcam can broadcast) are as populist a venue as you can get. It begins with “little people” breaking the rules, and having the courage to publicly disagree with the entrenched stereotypes. Sure, sometimes it comes across as sappy, but that’s OK, at least it’s being said.
Then, after a while Advertisers and bigger names start to pick up on such ideas and start challenging the stereotypes themselves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoT1rsJjxZc&feature=player_embedded
and that’s how stereotypes are killed. Eventually.
Just listen to how cheterry17 talks about how listening to other people’s videos on the subject changed some of her views.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXc3Vi7x910&feature=related
I find it funny how even though for pretty much for every race, for pretty much everywhere in the world, men (and women) have strong preferences for their own race.
But when AMs shows a strong preference for AFs in the states, people would twist it to somehow make it as though that’s wrong somehow.
I’ve traveled enough through Latin America, and all I can say is that a lot of latinas are incredibly attractive. Colombian and Venezuelan women are at the top of the list, in my opinion. I don’t have any hang ups about trying to date latinas, or black women, or any women. If I’m attracted to them and there’s some compatibility, why not? Interestingly enough, the overseas latinas seem far more open and accepting of me being Asian. But I also wonder if being an American also had some allure and had some sort of status.
There’s a great big world out there, folks. Try not to place limits on yourself. That’s all I’m gonna say because quite honestly, I’m finding these threads over the last month or so to be a bit inane.
I’m not sure it’s quite that simple, N.
I think that the question that Chr.. is asking has a specific context to consider.
The problem has been that the AF outdating rate has been famously higher when compared to the AM outdating rate. This has understandably opened quite the rift between a generation of AMs and AFs. As a result, AMs have for years stated things like:
1) I shouldn’t be judged based on imposed stereotypes and racial generalizations.
2) I should be given a chance to prove myself as an individual, like anyone else.
3) I shouldn’t be measured against the Western male standard, AMs have their own standards of masculinity and customs.
However, simultaneously, some of the very same guys are busy:
1) Judging certain women as incompatible, based on stereotypes & racial generalizations.
2) Not seeing women as individuals, with individual potentials as girlfriends.
3) Judging women against a specific cultural standard, instead of trying to understand them in their own cultural contexts.
In other words, it’s fine to say , “Hey, I just don’t like Black or Latina girls—nothing personal—but they don’t do anything for me at all.”
But in so doing, you have just negated any reason that a White or Asian girl shouldn’t just as well say, “Hey, I just don’t like Asian guys—nothing personal, but they don’t do anything for me at all.”
It’s pretty much the same principle. Either it’s all about individual preference, and tough luck to the misfits, or we all need to take a second look at WHY we see certain groups of people is a certain light.
Why should there be any difference? I think that is what Chr.. is getting at.
King, that’s a really good point you brought up. Thx for the perspective.
@ Raguel the Complimenter
Really it was Chr.. who brought up the point, I was just filling in the corners…
“1) Judging certain women as incompatible, based on stereotypes & racial generalizations.
2) Not seeing women as individuals, with individual potentials as girlfriends.
3) Judging women against a specific cultural standard, instead of trying to understand them in their own cultural contexts.”
Lol these fools are just sub-humans. Fuck em.
“Really it was Chr.. who brought up the point, I was just filling in the corners…”
No no I think you brought up a really good perspective vis a vis those youtube videos. My hands still tremble before clicking on a link but at least now I understand how this is a good thing.
I think that my life experiences have shaped me like broken flint but at least now I can recognise and appreciate the erm… softer side of life?
Well then, my thanks.
I’m just saying that the world is getting smaller, there are even Black girls going over to Asian countries to teach English ect. I’m glad that the younger generations will get a chance to know more about one another’s cultures. That’s good.
This is Lafia, who was teaching in Japan and had the chance of dating a few Japanese guys, but she has a great perspective on it. This is how she reacted when some commenters tried to put down Black guys based on her new IR dating experiences – You’ve got to admire her loyalty, and understanding of the issue.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkBygFj9P3Y&feature=relmfu
@King
In relation to IR, I think it’s actually a lot simpler than that. It really comes down to AMs attracted to AFs but not getting the same attraction back (that’s really the real issue).
The sub issues are the AFs’ bias and discrimination against AMs because of their preferences and all the image stuff are all tangents off the main issue. If AMs are not attracted to AFs, then we would (and should) be whinging about non-AFs instead.
My beef with IR is always the the superiority complex of AF/WMs (Mix babies are prettier than Asian babies!) and their discriminative views towards AF/AMs couples (boring, normal, non-progressive).
King, to be honest, we are not looking for ‘equality’, we are actually looking for bias ‘towards’ us, that AFs should understand us, support us, prefer us, love us more because we are AMs – the same way that WFs is bias towards WMs and BFs is towards BMs.
@N
No, I totally get that. That is the core issue, just as you say.
Yes, again I agree.
Of course, because that’s all pure baloney!
My question to you is, if Asian women (in general) had the same attitude as Lafia does (regarding Black men) on the interracial issue, is that pretty much the same thing as what you are asking of them?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkBygFj9P3Y&feature=relmfu
King,
How about Chinese men marrying Black women in native Africa. It’s already happening, as I have been hearing it from some Africans.
He is a product of that mix.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Ping
Other than that, Chinese men have been marrying Black women when they first settled in the Carribean, places like Jamaica and the neighboring islands. Don’t forget some of them married Black women in the South, when anti-miscegenation laws were passed, prohibiting White women mixing with non-White men.
“I’m just saying that the world is getting smaller, there are even Black girls going over to Asian countries to teach English ect. I’m glad that the younger generations will get a chance to know more about one another’s cultures. That’s good”.
@King
King, that’s a big IF. And unfortunately the e-mails that she had received probably reflects a lot better of what the general mentality is – multiply that to a point that there’s enough people to think that mentality is deemed to be okay (with the help of media of course).
Love in general blinds a person, and the first issue is the fire, even if all the sub issues are resolved, that just means that’s less fuel for the fire and maybe it’ll slowly be put out – but that’s a big IF. And if anything, I think more fuel had been throw into the fire.
At the end of the day, what we are looking at is that a average Asian guy having the
same day to be successful in getting an Asian girl as a White guy have in getting an average white girl or a Black guy in getting a black girl. And then hopefully the same successful of getting a white or black girl as a white or black guy getting an Asian girl.
If the IR rate is only 10% (or even 15%), I doubt there would be a ‘gender gap’ at all (or at least nowhere as wide as it is now).
@ King:
thank you for introducing Nina Keita into my life. Dayum!
Can I just say it???
Asian women are more feminine on average than Black, White, or Latina women (of course I know there are always exceptions)!
Black men are more masculine on average than White and Latino men who are in turn more masculine than Asian men on average (of course I know there are exceptions)!
The masculinity-femininity continuum goes a long ways in explaining why Black women and Asian men have it the hardest & why Black men and Asian women rarely get together (being generally on opposite ends on the masculinity-femininity continuum, that is).
Note: Masculinity can be defined many ways but I am defining it rather traditionally, that is, by a large size, strength, athleticism, aggressiveness, low body fat, and extroversion. I am defining femininity as being more the opposite of masculinity.
*I always have to use the “on average, or “tends” because someone will point out an exception — there are always exceptions.
Further, I am not saying the media or other things don’t go into influencing people’s decisions I just feel like I would be being dishonest if I did not mention this because as mentioned I believe it plays a role.
@ Fun9876
I’d rather say that different cultures have different contexts for both masculinity and femininity. Everyone has their own ideas about these things that they’re shooting for, and for different reasons. And Western ideals color our understanding of how all cultures fit into these concepts.
If you see it absolute terms, then you might as well say that the entire anti-Asian man critique is correct. I don’t see it that way.
@ Eurasian
Heh, tell me about it, brother!
^
Agreed.
The media does influence how people think. But not as much as you think it does. It does a good job portraying Middle Easteners and Muslims as terrorists. Yet, I see a lot of White Americans learning Arabic and studying the Quran in large numbers. I also see some White American girls dating Middle Easterner guys and even converting to Islam.
On the other hand, we have this perception from the media that China is to become this superpower and that we ought to learn Chinese to benefit from it. I have a friend who is a Chinese instructor and she tells me very few White Americans enroll in classes, it’s mostly the guys who do, giving us clues if only rice chasers benefit from it.
@ Fun9876
If you really consider some of those stereotypes, in the light of day, they don’t necessarily stand up anyway. For example, the idea that Black guys are more masculine (and often times thought to be bigger/taller) but it you look at this chart
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world
You’ll find that the average height in Nigeria is 5 ft 4 1⁄2 inches.
The average height in Japan is 5 ft 7 1⁄2 inches, so what does that tell you about stereotypes?
Most Africans look more like William Kamkwamba than Djimon Hounsou.
http://www.ted.com/talks/william_kamkwamba_on_building_a_windmill.html
Africa is a continent still battling malnutrition and disease in many places. The idea that most of the people there are tall, muscular, athletes is incorrect. That stereotype come from watching African-American athletes here in the U.S. and mistakenly equating them with representing the “African look.”
The same is true of most of these racial stereotypes once you peel back their skin.
My personal take:
1. If you are an Asian Male, concerned with the rate of out-dating of the Asian Female, seemingly leaving you at a disadvantage and are not willing to explore other options, then I think you should not complain too much and simply wait till the Asian Female of your dreams does become available. Now that might happen today or in your forties, but you will have the woman you want.
2. Many women of colour do find Asian Males attractive. I am one of them. My first celebrity crush was Amitabh Bachan (think in the 80s: Amar Akbar Anthony/Sholay) so I have grown up (though outside of the US) on a steady diet of seeing Asian Males the same way I see African Males.
Have I ever been approached or pursued by an Asian Male, even though I am surrounded by them quite a bit?: No.
Would I mind if I was?:No, as long as I was ready to reciprocate.
Do I mind that I am not?: No.
Would I approach one?:Not ever again. Did approach a guy (not Asian) once and the rejection was not pleasant for me. ( i don’t know how guys do it)
3. Everyone will at the end of the day, end up with someone who is right for them. As long as you are open. If you ask any couple in a healthy relationship, you will be told that when love happened for them, they did not see it coming.
4. To be able to have any healthy relationship, whether with someone of the same race/sex or not, you yourself have to be healthy. So do things that make you happy. I do understand that “body no be wood’ (African saying) and that we all desire companionship but if you are walking around town, irritated by the sight of two people who explored “all their options” and ended up together, you won’t be able to spot when a cute girl or boy is checking you out from across the room/street/metro stop. And then, you go home upset and end up on Big Wowo talking about you gets no love.
King,
There are many different ethnic groups in the continent of Africa. Mandinka’s are very tall on average whereas Pygmies tend to be fairly short.
I’m just talking about my personal experiences in the USA. And I am not really addressing genetics either. Whether because of better nutrition or not (I have a hard time thinking Black men get better nutrition than White men based on socioeconomics, BTW) most of the Black males I meet are bigger, taller, and more muscular than Asian males (from what I have read most Black people in the USA are about 20% White & the rest W. African).
I’m not citing a study it is just what I have noticed through life experience and seeing tens of thousands of Asians and Black people throughout my life in America, and also through discussions with friends who have come to the same conclusions based off of what they have seen first hand in America, that is, after seeing tens of thousands of Black, White, Latino, and Asian people in person. These impressions are also reinforced through the media when we see Black guys slam dunking and White Rambo guys on TV killing people with machine guns.
I word about stereotypes: yes, they are often incorrect. But they are a shortcut. For example, you stereotype Asian fathers as a reason for why Asian guys don’t date Black women (e.g. the picture you linked to), yet this is not always the case. I stereotyped the other day when I was looking for new cars; I avoided test certain models of cars which I thought were likely to not be as reliable. Because bell curves of data are subject to change, stereotypes can be wrong of course.
Stereotypes are adaptive. For example, most people would be afraid of being in a savanna with a lion near them. Now, not all lions will kill you, but a certain fraction of them will. Over the course of human history, people who stereotyped or categorized in such a manner increased their chances of living and therefore passing on their genes for the propensity to stereotype.
King,
In my comments I am referring to averages as they relate to Black men in America, BTW; perhaps I should have made that explicit.
A lot of Asian men have trouble meeting women PERIOD! Not that the women aren’t there, they just don’t know how to. The real problem for them is not the shortage of Asian females, but a lack of experience in the female department.
Or else the PUA community wouldn’t be saturated with Asian men.
“If you are an Asian Male, concerned with the rate of out-dating of the Asian Female, seemingly leaving you at a disadvantage and are not willing to explore other options, then I think you should not complain too much and simply wait till the Asian Female of your dreams does become available. Now that might happen today or in your forties, but you will have the woman you want”.
@ Fun9876
It would be interesting to find out average heights by race in the U.S. I’m not sure that Blacks are taller than Whites, but if they are, I’ll wager that it’s not by a large amount. Asians are mostly newer to the U.S. population, so they have not been exposed to the same diet and environmental conditions.
But I can agree that in the U.S. Blacks are generally larger than Asians, but not worldwide. Blacks have also adopted tougher customs and behaviors across the board, due to a long history of abuses in the U.S. However, it is worth noting that when Asians grow up among Blacks, or live in the same environment, that they are often seen as just as masculine and tough.
http://cdimg3.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/06172008/c/e/a/f/ceafb98df6f440_full.jpg
http://cdimg3.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/06172008/1/3/7/6/1376f49cb626a0_full.jpg
*Sorry but the IR parameter was the fastest way to search for Asian guys who hang around Blacks a lot. But you can tell these guys have attitude.
^
Yeah those Asian guys in the pics you linked to looked pretty tough. I would not mess with them.
Maybe White USA guys are taller than Black USA guys or maybe it’s about the same. My eyes have told me over time that Black guys seem buffer though on average in the USA compared to Whites in the USA who are in turn bigger than Asians in the USA, all on average of course.
We can talk about whether or not the size discrepancy between Asians in America and Blacks in America is due to environment or genes, but the fact remains that on the ground level this difference exists on average in America.
My experience, in other words observations is that Black men in the USA seem have that bigger mesomorphic look more so than White guys in the USA, even though Black men in the USA probably on average have poorer nutrition than White guys in the USA on average (due to socioeconomics).
Mesomorph: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=mesomorph&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N&biw=1024&bih=677&tbm=isch&tbnid=zl6mvaGd9do9pM:&imgrefurl=http://www.cityofinvernesscc.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php%3Fthread_id%3D197&docid=KDVf_ARmSn440M&w=456&h=280&ei=9HBuTrjqOsz_sQLV4pGyBA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=478&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=222&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0&tx=112&ty=70
@chr..
‘the ability to meet women’ is relative to the reception of the women they are after. For example there was really only one friend of mine who struggled with girls in high school. But once I convinced to go FOB alongside me, he never struggled again.
Another friend of mine that I meet through uni who again ‘struggled’ is living a high life once he’ve went back to Hong Kong to work and is dating a very pretty flight attentant.
It’s amazingly how one’s ability changes if they actually start on equal footing or if one is actually bias towards you.
Once again, I assume you are saying that women in the Western world are bias towards Asian men. If so, then everything we’ve discussed is a moot case.
“It’s amazingly how one’s ability changes if they actually start on equal footing or if one is actually bias towards you”.
My experience, in other words observations is that Black men in the USA seem have that bigger mesomorphic look more so than White guys in the USA
I agree. Some of it is genetic, but also weightlifting (now called working out) has been a big part of Black culture, at least since the 60′s. Being tough has also been a big apart of it, also being able to handle yourself in a fight.
Geez… it sounds like we’re Klingons doesn’t it? (sigh)
@ Chr..
Is this a cultural thing? Is it the difference in dating techniques in the West?
@cat
I’m actually working in Sydney now.
And in theory guys here face exactly the same problem as we do back in the states and AF/WM far outweigh WF/AMs. But IR is not really a huge concern to the AMs here, because the majority of the AFs here actually prefer AMs.
But I do think we do focus too much on the AFs that hates us and not enough on the AFs that do support us and love us.
Amen to that N.
King,
I found this from a random website just for laughs. Maybe it’s true if you want to believe in it!
But I do believe women in the Western world generally don’t have high regards of our Asian brothers.
For men its in order of most to least attractive:
1. European men with darker, sultry features from countries like Spain, Italy, Portugal, and France
2. Northern European men with light features from countries like Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Netherlands, and Norway
3. Western men with medium features from countries like England, United States, Australia, Canada, and Ireland
4. Middle Eastern men with darker but slightly rougher features from countries like Turkey, Greece, Morocco, Iran, and Algeria
5. Latino men from countries like Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, and ones in Central America
6. Arab men from countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan
7. African men
8. Southeast Asian men from countries like Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia
9. Indian men
10. Asian men from countries like Korea, China, Taiwan
N,
Then why is the PUA community popular among Asian guys?
I already know 2 childhood classmates from my Chinatown youth days who are now PUAs. I think it can get scary!
“But IR is not really a huge concern to the AMs here, because the majority of the AFs here actually prefer AMs. ..But I do think we do focus too much on the AFs that hates us and not enough on the AFs that do support us and love us”.
Ha! Looks like we’re waaaaay down at the bottom
Haha! Now, is that fair?
PUA
Once some guy is relying on your boot camp deposit to pay his electric bill, the temptation becomes far too strong to just tell you what you want to hear and take your money. They should call it “Fantasy camp.”
The gold, silver and bronze medals are awarded to men who tend to come from countries with a history of colonialism. So I’m not surprised!
“Ha! Looks like we’re waaaaay down at the bottom Haha! Now, is that fair?”
@chr..
I’m referring to Sydney-siders. But I never knew PUA even existed before reading about it on this blog, is it really that big?
And in my experiences, in general Overseas born Asian girls in college seems more receptive of Asian guys then the American born counterpart.
But obviously there are the other extremes as well. But we are definitely not missing out on anything.
From what I’ve been seeing, it seems like Asian men in the Western world, or at least in the Anglophone countries have a harder time in dating world. They especially don’t do nearly as well as their female counterparts in interracial dating, so there is this disparity.
“And in my experiences, in general Overseas born Asian girls in college seems more receptive of Asian guys then the American born counterpart”.
@Chr…
Never cared much about Non-Asian girls, so can’t make any comments there. But it’s fairly easy to tell between Asian girls who is bias towards Asian guys from those that is bias against Asian guys.
“From what I’ve been seeing, it seems like Asian men in the Western world, or at least in the Anglophone countries have a harder time in dating world. They especially don’t do nearly as well as their female counterparts in interracial dating, so there is this disparity.”
I always find it a bit odd when people think that Europe is that much different to the Anglophone countries (e.g. Germany is basically little america just with Turks instead of black people) , take away the language barrier, all the supposed cultural peculiarities and you’d be shocked that there is almost no difference in attitudes and interests of young French women and young American women for example (you can replace French for any other western European country).
That being said apparently places like eastern Europe are meant to be the exception to this rule. Of course it is still speculation at this point in time as I’ve only read anecdotes about it online. However the role money plays in that is probably significant as poverty is one hell of a motivator. My guess is its similar to a fat old white guy saying that hot Filipina chicks are really into him when what they are really into is his wallet.
Many Asian dudes like to spread this rumor that non-Anglo European women are more receptive of Asian men. There are actually less WF/AM couples in Europe than here in the states. Go to any Southern European country, and WF/AM is almost non-existent. This being said, most of them rarely encounter Asians on a daily basis, maybe with the exceptions of students and tourists.
Eastern Europe and Russian women obviously are into Asian men with big wallets.
N,
So what do you think of the interracial disparity? Is it a serious concern for Asian men who only want Asian women, as some would believe?
“Never cared much about Non-Asian girls, so can’t make any comments there. But it’s fairly easy to tell between Asian girls who is bias towards Asian guys from those that is bias against Asian guys”.
@Chr…
I’m 50/50 on that one, I think it could be overstated (since it hasn’t really impacted me and my closest friends that much), but at the same time, I can’t see how it doesn’t have an impact. On average, there’s probably 10% of Asian guys that can get any girl and there’s probably 10% on the other extreme that can’t get any girls no matter how they tried, so I’m not sure how it affects the other 80%.
Most of my closest circle are 1st, 1.5 or 2nd Gens and most of us can speak a second language and since pretty much all of our girls share a similar background, so it’s probably easier for us (where our Asian background actually helps rather than hinders).
Having said that, probably it’s because we’ve been the beneficiary of having interaction with girls who are bias towards us, it’s fairly easy to see how different the interaction is with those who swings to the other extreme. No matter how much they try to hide it, your racial dating preference will change or is a reflection of how you preceive/interact with the Males of a certain racial group. While there’s no attraction to these girls that plays for the team, is there really any point in taking in all the double standards they are giving out?
I mean, I like Asian food, but why would I bother with an Asian food place that sucks up to the white customers but treat the Asian customers poorly with second rate service? Especially when there’s other Asian Food places around that actually enjoys our prescence?
Plays for the other team, I meant
“Of course it is still speculation at this point in time as I’ve only read anecdotes about it online.”
This is because you never step out of your house.
Oh hey again Raguel good to see you took another break from your marathon
masturbation sessions to contribute. Keep up the good work tough guy
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Et tu, Coco Lee?
http://www.whatsonxiamen.com/ent3443.html
Although I gotta say that the dude’s a billionaire. Billion. That’s a very very big number.
How did he get in charge of a company called Li and Fung?
http://www.lifung.com/eng/company/management.php
@bigwowo
Again, nothing to be concerned about. An old, faded star who’ve started playing for the other team ages ago.
There’s nothing to even boycott against because she hasn’t done anything for a decade.
How old is Coco Lee? And would she be able to find a Taiwanese man at her level that is not married and not divorced? Isn’t she 40 something?
Parry Shen is actually married to a blonde white woman and they have a baby girl. If he can date and marry interracially, LOTS of Asian guys should have no problem. And his wife is hotter than him, so don’t go there.
Diane Farr is married to a Korean guy. Tim Kang is married to a white actress and they have a baby.
“Parry Shen is actually married to a blonde white woman and they have a baby girl. If he can date and marry interracially, LOTS of Asian guys should have no problem. And his wife is hotter than him, so don’t go there”.
Again, you are using a bad example. Of course a good looking guy who looks Hispanic of some sort, or has a Caucasian type phenotype will have no problem with White girls.
Can’t you reference an Asian guy who looks Asian?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TK4fjMhGn-I
How about him? This guy went to my university, and wanted to blow the brains out of White people in the library, but it was foiled thank goodness. It was some scary shit. He obviously had some mental problems, and it could be his lack of opportunity when it came to the female department.
Tim Kang wtf? Stop using actors as a reference point for the average Asian men. They aren’t like the rest of us.
I wrote: Parry Shen is actually married to a blonde white woman and they have a baby girl. If he can date and marry interracially, LOTS of Asian guys should have no problem. And his wife is hotter than him, so don’t go there.
Chr: “Again, you are using a bad example. Of course a good looking guy who looks Hispanic of some sort, or has a Caucasian type phenotype will have no problem with White girls.
Can’t you reference an Asian guy who looks Asian?”
You really are whitewashed.
“Parry Shen is actually married to a blonde white woman and they have a baby girl. If he can date and marry interracially, LOTS of Asian guys should have no problem. And his wife is hotter than him, so don’t go there”.
That’s because he’s a nice looking dude and doesn’t look like your typical Asian guy. He’s also an actor. Asian men in general are viewed as less attractive by non-Asian women. If this wasn’t the case, you wouldn’t be saying what was spouted.
Why don’t you tell many Asian guys who come from immigrant working class families to become billionaires, just because Jerry Yang of yahoo is one of them?
@jstele
Asian guys that only lusts after blonde women and give AF Crap because they don’t comply with western definition of beauty (eg. Obsession with breast sizes, narrow faces) are equally as bad in my books.
N: Agreed. It’s no different. But AMs get away with stuff like that cause it probably because it happens so infrequently. The key word is “lusts” not “Bang”
Lots of those PUAs “lust” after white, especially blonde women but do they succeed in getting them to anything worth mentioning?
Nah.
There are some PUA guys who love AFs and continue to do so but most I see on boards are guys who want the WF almost like obtaining status in life. Very sad.
@Moro “There are some PUA guys who love AFs and continue to do so but most I see on boards are guys who want the WF almost like obtaining status in life. Very sad”.
I have seen some Asian PUAs in action. Yep, that’s what I’ve observed. It could be that AMs would not 2nd think when it comes to hitting a AF, and thus PUA tactics are not needed. A lot of AMs are reluctant to approach WFs due to a lot of reasons. Emasculation of the AM is definately the biggest factor, and WFs having higher bitch shields, especially towards an AM who has been desexualized by the media.
Never knew how Parry Shen’s wife looked like till I saw this pic.
http://parryshen.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/070_70.jpg
King, that hot Asian woman isn’t Parry’s wife. I believe she’s an actress who’s married to a WM.
This guy is definately not the average Asian dude when it comes to his facial features. Who would be stupid enough to think he isn’t mixed of some sort?
Parry Shen
If anything, he looks remotely Hispanic, and not suprisingly, since he attended an all boys Roman Catholic prep school here in NYC.
Chr: What’s your obsession with guys with Asian features or not? Are you saying guys with Asian features can’t get any American women? That’s not the case in my experiences.
@Moro – Yes, I believe guys with the stereotypical Asian features will have a harder time. This is based on my observations. If you can blend in well with a crowd of White folks, then you will not have a problem. Picture Masi Oka with a group of Whites and then picture Parry Shen instead. I think you will agree that Parry Shen will be more easily accepted. They did a study where Whites perceived “White looking” Latinos to be 2nd choice when it came to dating and marriage. The media paints Muslim men as terrorists, yet I don’t see Middle Eastern guy being less popular. They are up there with Black guys and White girls.
Using Parry Shen to dictate to all Asian men out there that if he can get a hot White girl so can any other dude is just misleading.
Don’t forget that many American Blacks and Latinos also have substantial Caucasian admixture from their respective colonizers. Thus, they are more easily accepted in the American multicultural/multiracial sphere of things.
Never put that picture up there to show Perry Shen’s wife being hot. Don’t won’t to diss an Asian brother but I don’t know if you can call her hot. I think any Asian guy can get a woman like that. She seems nice but very typical. I think it’s a defeatist attitude to think cause you have Asian features you can’t score hot women. Many women I knew thought Masi Oka was very cute and would have dated him. He was pretty much the star of that show when it was popular. I doubt before that show went on, you didn’t believe that possible.
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Have you read this post which analyzes people’s race preferences as it relates to internet dating? What’s interesting is that Pacific Islanders do really well; apparently in the real world the “embargo” does not extend to them:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/
What is the sample size of the study?
Also, what is the geographical demographic of the sample size?
You will have to read the study.
Pacific Islanders are bosses; and people categorized as “Asian men” do better than “Black” men. Interesting.
“Chr: What’s your obsession with guys with Asian features or not? Are you saying guys with Asian features can’t get any American women? That’s not the case in my experiences.”
He’s obsessed with whiteness and thinks it automatically makes someone good looking to be mixed with white. I don’t know anyone who thinks that Parry Shen is hot. He would be rated lower to average on the scale of looks. He is full Taiwanese by the way. And that is a pic of him with his family, including wife.
“He’s obsessed with whiteness and thinks it automatically makes someone good looking to be mixed with white”.
You and your nonsense tirade. Can’t you see the inferiority thing going on with Asians, particularly with a substantial number of AFs. They worship White ppl. And yes, Daniel Henney wouldn’t be as handsome as he is, if he was just a pure bred Korean guy. And yes, Korean women marry White men at rates higher than Chinese women.
Did you know a lot of AMs are at least well liked in the White gay community? Parry Shen is considered hot among gay White men.
“Can’t you see the inferiority thing going on with Asians, particularly with a substantial number of AFs. They worship White ppl.”
YOU and few other Asians do. That doesn’t mean you’re the majority. LOL.
“And yes, Daniel Henney wouldn’t be as handsome as he is, if he was just a pure bred Korean guy. And yes, Korean women marry White men at rates higher than Chinese women.”
You and your inferiority complex toward Koreans. Always have to compare Chinese to Koreans to make yourself feel better. Pathetic.
“Did you know a lot of AMs are at least well liked in the White gay community? Parry Shen is considered hot among gay White men.”
Not many people think he’s hot. He’s just average. Keep dreaming.
“YOU and few other Asians do. That doesn’t mean you’re the majority. LOL.blah..blah..blah….”
Tell that to Bryon, and tell him to shut down this site because AFCC and the AAFC are the main discussions around here. Just in case you don’t know, AAFC means Average Asian Frustrated Chump, those Asian guys who are always complaining about the AFCC and not being able to score White girls.
“Tell that to Bryon, and tell him to shut down this site because AFCC and the AAFC are the main discussions around here. Just in case you don’t know, AAFC means Average Asian Frustrated Chump, those Asian guys who are always complaining about the AFCC and not being able to score White girls.”
Byron can write whatever he wants. It’s his blog. But just because one makes something an issue does not make it one.
Chr: Who are these Asian guys complaining? The small number who frequent message boards? I really don’t see it amongst Asian people I know. Seriously, it’s foreign to me. I don’t think being Asian ever stopped me from getting somewhere I needed to go. If there’s one thing to blame, it’s my own shortcomings. Not my Asianess.
@Moroboshi
We need to find chr a girlfriend and a wife to keep him happy. Seriously! If you can’t find your beauty in your neighborhood or city, I say go back to Asia, China, Taiwan etc. to find your mate. Sign up for those Asian dating websites and post your picture and see if you can attract your own kind chr. Yes I have done this. This topic has been debated ad nausem on many Asian forums and we do know this problem exists. I do know that the shy, introverted and quiet Asian exists in America. I was previously like that, but I have become more assertive and stronger. Discrimination and rejection still exists, but I believe as minorities you have to work harder and strive better than a white or black guy. Yes it is not fair, but it is better if you tried and fail than not try at all. (Of course I mean in courting women) Improve your mind, body and personality and you will attract women of your own culture. The man still has to make the first move. Screw those banana twinkie sellouts, as there are still single Asian women who still prefer their own.
Lol DMan, Chr can barely keep his mental issues under control with medication, what makes you think he could hold a girlfriend? All his insecurities will come to the fore the moment he tries to change his sexless existence.
Old dogs don’t learn new tricks and Chr hasn’t learned anything new in ages. That’s why he’s given up on life.
Funny gender wars comment alert on this article about Vietnamese women trying to flirt with American Viet Kieu men:
http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_19275809
Bao D Nguyen:
This article is uninformed and unnecessary. Here’s the key to understanding the dynamics of Vietnamese Americans vs Vietnamese in Vietnam – In America, Vietnamese men don’t have many opportunities for casual sex, or heavy flirting. If a young Vietnamese American woman is going to have “boyfriend-girlfriend” sex, it’s with a white guy. It’s not as bad with the newcomers, because the girls who come from Vietnam haven’t learned how to look down on her male counterpart. But Vietnamese American girls, and Asian girls in general, have mostly grown up with American culture’s antagonistic attitude towards Asia.
Since the article was written, it should be followed up with one on Vietnamese American girls aggressively chasing white guys. But that article may be unnecessary too, since things are changing fast within the Vietnamese American community. As Asia rises, the young Vietnamese girls attitudes are changing towards Vietnamese men. I’m sure the next generation of Vietnamese men will not be going back to VN so much for the “clubbing,” since we’re seeing so much more of that scene here.
Reply · 11 · Like · Follow Post · November 6 at 3:02pm
Tuvy Le
” If a young Vietnamese American woman is going to have “boyfriend-girlfriend” sex, it’s with a white guy.” That’s a mouthful. People will have boyfriends/girlfriends/casual sex with people of all color. It happens with Vietnamese people as much as it does with Caucasian people. And “Vietnamese girls aggressively chasing white guys”? Your whole reply is seasoned with stereotypes and blanket statements.
Rodrigo Gutierrez:
says the girl with the white boyfriend.
Tuvy Le:
He’s Middle Eastern. Whether I’m dating a Vietnamese guy, or an African-American guy–it really doesn’t matter. I stand by my point. What’s yours? Should I not be able to comment on what I think is biased and unfair because I’m dating someone outside my race?
Click on this to see the full convo:
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_19275809?fb_comment_id=fbc_10150342358897624_18887096_10150342819942624#f1d2ab84e6c14ce
Raguel,
Which is exactly why I coined a new acronym AAFC for those Asian dudes and their hapless sex lives. They seem to be the majority here ranting about the AFCC, and other useless drivel such as PUA and why Asian men suck at dating.
..Chr: Who are these Asian guys complaining? The small number who frequent message boards? I really don’t see it amongst Asian people I know. Seriously, it’s foreign to me. I don’t think being Asian ever stopped me from getting somewhere I needed to go. If there’s one thing to blame, it’s my own shortcomings. Not my Asianess.
So are your shortcomings a result of external societal factors or internal workings?
Why even bother to talk about injustices of Asian Americans when you soley lay blame on one’s shortcomings? I guess you have been bought by the model minority myth.
CHR: It’s internal. If I’m not working hard enough to achieve something, I probably won’t get it. It’s not cause I’m Asian. I don’t buy into the model minority but I also don’t buy into the garbage that Asian males aren’t seen as attractive. Can it be productive to go through life thinking you’re unattractive because of your race? Isn’t that what leads to self hating and ultimately depression? I mean if you don’t bathe, exercise or cut your hair. It’s not cause you’re Asian people don’t want to be around you. That’s why I laugh at PUA. Lots of their teachings teach you about fixing your appearance and going up to as many women as possible. So basically, taking care of your looks and the dating world being a numbers game. Isn’t that common sense? Those guys are charging for common sense.
“I don’t buy into the model minority but I also don’t buy into the garbage that Asian males aren’t seen as attractive.”
Many Asian males fit well in the model minority paradigm, but most don’t fit well in the attractive scale. If so, we would not have the interracial dating disparity or gender divide. I’m not saying there are no attractive Asian males. I just speak with reservation when it comes to perceiving Asian men as being good looking, because reality shows a different picture. It’s like saying I don’t buy the garbage that Blacks are not successful.
Thanks for the tip Raguel I am not sure that Chr Asian buddies who make over $300K can help him out as wingmen in the dating scene. I hope he takes my advice.
Interesting point on the comments Byron as I just saw it from Angry asian man’s post. Thats cool that Viet-American men can attract their own beauties there. I can’t say this for this Asian/Viet female who seems to put down Viet/Asian men to justify her love for a Black/Latino guy
http://www.asiancemagazine.com/2011/10/01/once-you-go–you-never-go-back#comments
I don’t care if Asian female happen to fall in love with white, black, latin or (whatever beside her ethnicity) but I don’t like you put down your own race of men to prefer to love another race. I got tired of some of the women members on that site, not to mention the promotion of white guy/Asian woman relationships from one article. I hope those who I befriend will not buy into that white knight or white guy sexual fetisher types.
Hopefully the Viet women are not gold diggers and it is because of physical attraction, love and shared cultural values to the Viet-American guys. Funny they say Vietnam has a higher ratio of women than men and even men from China and Korea are looking for Viet women for marriage. I suggest the AA brothers to look back and seek women from Asian countries to find love and happiness. If you are a US citizen you can bring her over here with a fiance visa. Yes the process will involve financial expense on your part, but you will find more joy with someone of your racial ethnic background.
^ nothing to add to that.