Jamie Yeo
Whenever I post on hot chicks, my traffic spikes. It’s actually been higher than usual recently, but when you’re on a roll, why not spike it super high? When it comes to bigwowo…it’s like the Britney song…hit me baby one more time!
I saw this on the Asian Rake site (which I found from a comment on MaSir Jones‘s site). This PUA stuff never goes away fully. It’s the curse of the Asian male. Whenever I hear these PUAs using their terminology and buzz words, I get the heebie-jeebies. I was hoping Rake-man would let the hot chick Jamie and the smooth dude with the accent talk more. I got chills whenever Rake opened his mouth to talk about what works and what doesn’t. He seems like an okay guy, but it’s as if PUAs remove their personal investment when they talk about relationships. It becomes more about “what works” than the experience.
Still, I thought it was good just to see Asian folk talking about issues in their society. Rake-man is from the U.S. but is living in Singapore, while everyone else is from Singapore. Jamie Yeo attended high school in the U.S.
It’s a 3-parter, so check out the rest of it here on the Rake site. I admit I had trouble sitting through most of it–I usually identify “Crossfire” with politics. Man, Singapore culture is hilarious. I’ve heard from Singaporean people that it can be a repressive place, but it looks like so much fun.
By the way, a great movie about Singaporean young people: That’s the Way I Like It. Grreeeat movie, lah! And dudes, the entire movie is on youtube! Catch it here (see the sidebar). “You be the next John Travolta man!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vu6C2u1wHQ&feature=related
Anyway, Rake-man and hot chick Jamie Yeo were the two guests on the show. Jamie was saying all kinds of things about Singaporean men…so I got curious. Oi. Sometimes it’s best not to get curious. She’s currently married to a Singaporean dude with whom she is separated, but she’s also engaged at the same time to…
…a White guy from England! And then she wrote this on her celebrity blog: Caucasian male + asian female = the perfect match. What say you? (If you’re reading the comments, “ang mo” means “foreigner” or “White person.”) It’s more of the same old “I treat all races equal but some animals are more equal than others” stuff that we always read.
I really really really really just don’t get it. Are there not enough single Asian guys in Singapore? It makes no sense. I’ve heard of similar things happening in Hong Kong and Japan and other countries. What’s up with that? How is it that more than forty years since the Civil Rights Movement whiteness still remains such a status symbol? Houston, we have a problem!
And Rake-Man, I’ve read your site and it looks like you sympathize with the Asian American male cause. With that in mind, I usually don’t cheer for PUAs, but couldn’t you do something to represent? Didn’t you have any tools in your toolbox to cockblock? Maybe the peacock, or AMOG, or Kino, or even neg? Or Hail Mary? Sheesh…I would’ve cheered for ya.
Related posts:
But here is an...
I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
My friend who does extensive business there said Singaporeans are just Chinese people who wish they were British. It stems directly from insecurity of which Asians and Asian Americans are kings.
To compensate for this, they project the exact opposite with arrogance (which is also described as a “false confidence).
Aside from that, even if AM can be the absolute example of Prince Charming, the sheer drive for AFs to seek out WMs is too strong. I know this because AFs have already set a much higher bar for Asian men and would not tolerate flaws that would otherwise be tolerated in WMs.
If you only shop at one store, the store is justified in raising the prices. By now, the prices are already astronomical and highly overvalued. You’re getting alot less with your money. Meanwhile, there are 3 other stores, which sells the same exact goods, but you never visit them because you either 1.) don’t know about them or 2.) because you refuse to walk 1 extra block.
Meanwhile, the store you always shop at doesn’t want you to shop there because it would give you options and it would have to be price competitive. So, it has no reason to let you know that store exists or to dissuade you from shopping there. This keeps the original stores leverage in place.
Meanwhile, those new stores around the corner are a little further to get to but they’re willing to sell to everyone at mark-to-market prices.
Oh, since the original store has inflated prices and certain people can’t afford it, they start learning how to steal to survive. Instead of finding out why these certain individuals steal, they just choose to blame them for being a bad person.
One more thing to address your comment as to the Civil Rights Movement, that same friend said he does business not only in Singapore but all over Southeast Asia. The colonial powers have really destroyed them psychologically.
For instance, when Spain took over the Philippines, they subjected them and forced them into a servant mentality. Their only purpose is to serve. You have no other purpose in the world. Some of the white collar Filipinos have shaken this off but it’s ingrained in all of the blue collar population.
He said that it would take 200 more years to undo that damage.
Sorry for the readability and typos. Typing paragraphs on a blackberry really sucks.
I did a google search on actresses from Singapore. Fiona Xie, Joanne Peh, Sharon Au…it’s quite common.
You’re right about the store analogy, urb4n. The question is…how do we let people know that the other stores are open for business? I’d say that would take a group effort combined with institutional know how.
For me, the most empowering thing is to be able to say, “People, you’re only shopping at one store, but these other stores are open!” Some people are too shy to advertise, or they think it’s somehow a badge of shame to admit that there aren’t enough customers in their store.
I’ve always said that Asians/Asian Americans don’t need outside forces to oppress them; they do a fine job themselves. [More on that some other time]
If AMs were smart, they would shop around and encourage other AMs to shop around as well. This has two direct benefits. First, it shows that the store you normally shop at that AMs have other options and prevents them from charging outrageous prices. Second, if that first store refuses to sell you items, you don’t starve to death.
If AMs don’t even try to shop at those other stores, those stores don’t know if it’s cost effective to advertise in your neighborhood, right? My recommendation is to first start walking past the store. Next month, maybe stop and peer into the window. After that, take a walk inside and see what they have to offer and compare prices. Then, you’ll finally be able to make a purchase.
Then, tell other AMs what a great deal you got by shopping at the “new place.”
What happens? The original store catches on and not only mark-to-market their prices but also offers sales in an attempt to lure back their original customers that have defected.
However, in order to do so, you must shop their yourselves and encourage others to do so as well.
Great analogy. I think I kinda flipped gender in my last comment by accident, but I get what you’re saying now. As usual urb4n, I (and I think most other people) agree with the general gist of what you’re saying.
There are a few issues that will come up, some of which can be fixed, others which can probably be helped. Here are some issues (I’m sure there are more):
1. There is only ONE store that many Asian guys shop at, but there are literally ten times as many other stores out there. Whether we like it or not, because it’s unregulated (uh oh, time to bring in Eric Jacobus), these stores sometimes collaborate and fix prices among each other. Hence, you sometimes see the stores-we-don’t-shop-at promoting the store-that-we-shop-at in order to keep the prices we pay high, and in order to let the white stores charge a higher price for their customers. For example, the White feminist movement was very much the force that propelled Maxine Hong Kingston’s racist anti-AM Woman Warrior into fame because it forced White men to acknowledge equality by setting an example and attacking the reputation of Asian men. We were the fall guys for something that was taking place at the other stores.
2. The store we shop at is very close because it’s our community. The stores we don’t shop at are far away. Even if we help ourselves by shopping at the other stores–which I agree most Asian men ought to do–there’s still the problem of us having to drive. So even though the merchandise might be just as good across town (god, I sound like a PUA), the money is still flowing out of the community. I’m not saying that it’s not a good thing to shop outside–it is–but there still ought to be some money within the community, or else the community will still go bankrupt.
3. There’s a chance that the original store may not offer sales regardless of what the other stores are doing. The original store might just keep those ol’ Jim Crow laws in place of separate but not really equal. Look at the example in the post–that’s a pretty big discount for only a certain segment of the population. This where the Buddhist part of this price war comes into place. Sometimes you have to just let it go. Do your best to help your community, but don’t expect your community to acknowledge it or reform itself. Give without expectation. That’s what I try to do.
Overall, I do agree with you. It’s just not as clean as we all wish it were.
B.
Hahaha, this analogy cracks me up. I love you uRB4N. Kinda hard to argue with this one, Jaehwan. I mean, just how much more are Asian American men supposed to shoulder? I’m all for supporting the community store, but when that store either refuses to sell to you or marks its price so far high, is it worth it to pay such premiums for stuff that other people outside the community get for market value? Asians are supposed to be frugal, and here we’re breaking the cardinal rule. So yeah, it would make sense to shop at other stores. What doesn’t make sense though, is if you simply go to that one other store that’s also over priced. Then you’ll be wasting money AND gas. Yeah, you know which other store I’m talking about.
But that’s a problem easily solved here int the West. I don’t know what it’s like in Singapore, but in some countries people don’t have that many stores to chose from. More like that get one.
Sonovabitch, I feel like a PUA already. Jaewhan, you need to start charging money for these conversations.
Analogies provide a real life scenario that everyone can relate to without a need to get into topics that might be socially loaded.
It’s not that you don’t know the answer; it’s that you don’t like it. As long as you don’t admit that the conclusion is that you’re getting the short stick, there isn’t a problem.
If there is no problem; no need to fight anything.
I find that AAs have inherited a very annoying trait from the old world. Rather than understanding and fighting real oppression, you attack your own. Instead of protect the weak, you shove them in front of a car to collect insurance money.
Agree. A few questions.
1) I think most if not all of us consider Asian women not dating Asian men to actually be a symptom of the problem, as opposed to the problem itself. The real problem is lack of cultural esteem, racial insecurity, etc. which is expressed in various ways, dating patterns being one of them. If that’s the case, does Asian guys making a concerted effort to not date Asian women help resolve this problem at all?
2) I personally don’t think that Asian guys’ apparent hesitation to date non-Asian women is solely a result of cultural preferences and familiarity. While I think that’s part of the story, I think another part is the feeling that our chances are simply better with Asian women (even though they’re not even that great to begin with) than non-Asian women. I think a lot are convinced that, even though every one under the sun is going after Asian women, they still have a better chance going after an Asian woman than a non-Asian woman. It’s fine to say Asian men should consider dating non-Asian women, but what do you think the success rates will be? I think a lot of Asian men have tried pursuing non-Asian women and have lost motivation after experiencing a lot of rejection.
I am glad to see that my original Supply and Demand Theory is finally gaining some currency. For those who don’t know what I’m talking about. Think of pussy as a commodity. The greater the demand for a certain type of pussy, the higher its price will be. We all know that Asian pussy is highly in demand. When too many Asian guys remain exclusively loyal to Asian pussy (and this is still happening way to frequently), YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING TO AN ON-GOING PROBLEM. You DON’T put all your eggs in one basket. You need to DIVERSIFY.
Furthermore, relations between men and women is essentially a power struggle. Asian men are losing badly at this power struggle and too many are aggravating the situation by NOT diversifying. Think about it. We’re totally out-leveraged by Asian women. What’s more, instinctively they KNOW THIS TOO and use it to their own advantage. Unless you are a dog, being “loyal and faithful” is not an attractive trait. By sticking to Asian women only, we are continuously sending out the message that
1. Asian men are not interested in non-Asian women
2. Asian men lack guts and courage to explore ‘new territory’
3. We’re losers with no other options when though Asian women date out in such large numbers to the point where EVERYONE has noticed this by now, not just us
Asian men will become more attractive to Asian women if we date out more. It shows them that we have other options BESIDES THEM. Dating and mating is a NEGOTIATION between men and women. Do you walk into a negotiation with having other cards to play??? Do you get the best deal if you do not have the option to say “sorry, this simply wont do” and walk away???
By remaining a wallflower to the IR dating scene, Asian men are subliminally reinforcing the idea to Asian women that they can treat us like a Plan B backup plan. And that’s what we are to them…a backup plan.
There is a quiet revolution happening amongst many Asian-American guys. We’re all at different stages but a great many of us are quite fed up and finally taking concrete steps to do something about it.
Join the revolution. Or roll over and die.
@kobukson: what is your revolution? Are you going to carry away Asian Women like a cave man?
I don’t know why Asian women prefer us over you. You have to ask them why. They have the answer.
Jamie Yeo is hot and sexy!!! I get aroused just by looking at her. If she seen me, she would dump that guy and follow me.
Ha!
http://images1.asianmediawiki.com/images/3/36/My_Darling_is_a_Foreigner-p1.jpg
Pingback: Beauty and the Ethnic Woman « big WOWO
Siggy,
We’ve more than tripled traffic in the last year or so. That being said, I think you’re the only person who comes to this site and gets off. That’s pretty pathetic, man, and I’m trying to say that in a helpful way. Think about it. You really need to seek professional help.
Etain,
I couldn’t see the image. (It says “Forbidden.”)
Leon,
Yes, urb4n’s got great points, and this analogy is great! I’m definitely going to be using the term “community store” often from now on. “That dude only shops at the community store!” Haha…lol! This market is the one place place where a Chinese guy has to fight hard to get a deal!
Regarding etain’s point:
Are the prices at the non-community stores really cheaper than the community store? I of course think it’s good to shop everywhere–the more you shop, the more likely to find a product that works for you–but in general, are the prices really cheaper? No doubt we as a whole get overcharged at the one store where most of our brothers shop, but don’t we get overpriced even more across town? Most brothers I see who’ve made purchases across town usually bring a lot to the table–they’re rich like Kiyosaki or skilled like Bruce Lee or Yo Yo Ma. That’s not to say that the rich brothers don’t buy locally–Daniel Dae Kim, Yul Kwon, and Jerry Yang, for example–but I think most guys who buy at the outer stores tend to be rich.
What do you think? Jamie Oliver says we should encourage our local food markets to think local and to buy organic. Maybe that philosophy could be applied beyond just food. In this case, maybe they can buy internationally AND local! Support your local farmers and help the community! Haha!
Just for the record, I’d like to state that as an Asian American woman, I DO NOT prefer any other race/ethnicity over Asians. Asian men are my only plan, and there is no “Plan B.” For me, they are sexier, more in tune with me, share more of my values, etc.
I will shop only at the “community store.” Not just because it’s good to support local business, but because I find the merchandise is far and away superior and more suited to my needs as a consumer–and I just plain like it! Now for me, the “community store” is far less convenient that the other markets, unfortunately. That’s just where I happen to live. But even though it’s pretty far out of my way, just try to keep me away from those freshly made, still-warm rolls of sushi and kimbap–the rice seasoned just right, not refrigerated and hard, no avocado or other crap in it…just the thought of it makes me drool. The other stores just can’t get it right.
I say Buy Local!
Try this one.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hIfZla1VWGI/S2t2KAnmjTI/AAAAAAAAJSI/sgUnCeI8_NU/s400/darling.png
Geez. I didn’t dive into this bitch’s life because I really don’t give a rat’s ass what she thinks.
What I’m not fond of is her announcement to the world that a “Caucasian male + Asian female = Perfect match”. Albeit the headline she posted is probably a reference to her current relationship, but why does this bitch have to make it a racial issue?
Why can’t she just say, “I love the guy because he fits my profile” instead of insinuating that a “perfect” couple is one that consists of merely THAT tiresome combination. That kind of a statement creates more enemies and resentment among Asian men toward all other AF/WM couples.
A better quote is one that a WM friend gave me:
“AMs need to get off the reservation.”
@ Byron
The answer on whether or not the non-community is cheaper, I would say no. I addressed that point but you might have missed that subtle point. The community store is on your block but you need to walk 1-2 blocks to get to the non-community store.
Is it technically tougher? Yea. Does it matter in the long run? Probably not. In fact, you get more exercise.
It’s like whining that you would have won the NY Marathon if you weighed 2.284 pounds lighter. Is it a legit complaint? Yes. Would it have mattered? Nope.
From what I’ve seen, at least in NYC, is that the community store is much more open and receptive. Does it take a little more to get them interested? Yes. Does it involve you moving mountains? Nope.
@MaSir
That’s the insecurity kicking in. Also, AFs have an axe to grind after years of being oppressed. Now, whether or not it’s real or imagined, doesn’t matter. Instead of using their new found social power to affect change, they air their dirty laundry in a bid to oppress.
Therefore, being useless when it comes to social change.
RiceCakeRabbit,
Keeping it real! Buy local!!!
Etain,
If I were an ex-pat who saw that picture, I’d be so encouraged that I’d play the Japanese powerball.
MaSir,
Thanks for your posting the original Rake video. Maybe he coulda brought her back to the team. Oi. Why didn’t he use his PUA skills? Do you know the guy? If so, what does he think?
Urbs,
So why again should these guys walk the extra block? For the higher prices? For the exercise?
I generally agree with you. I’m just trying to answer the question about why they should walk that extra block if the effort is greater and the prices are higher (even higher than those already inflated community prices!). Variety seems to be the best argument. Or maybe it makes sense if you like the non-community merchandise better.
I think my main question is whether or not shopping at the non-community stores will create a situation in which “the original store catches on and not only mark-to-market their prices but also offers sales in an attempt to lure back their original customers that have defected.” Your knowledge of econ is no doubt better than mine, but if I buy a widget for $10 at the community store, and the non-community stores has the exact same product for $15, would a migration of customers to the next block cause the community store to drop their prices? Or would it just piss them off? (“Thinks he’s so cool just cuz he’s got a $15 widget!”) Or would they not care? (“Take your expensive widget because I’m still too good for your race!”)
I will admit that within the Asian community that the non-community product carries cachet. People tend to ascribe more social value to the non-community products. Kinda like the way Italian sports cars have more prestige than Corvettes, even if they drive the same. (That’s actually a bad example because they don’t drive the same. Oh well.)
My point is that the non-community store isn’t more expensive than the community store. The prices are either the same or sometimes cheaper.
The only “downside” is the extra effort to walk there.
This is getting ridiculous and the debate is reaching a point of absurdity.
This is not rocket science.
Jaewhan is forever the devil’s advocate, always questioning things, etc. That’s admirable but in this case a bit tedious.
AFs dating out in significant quantities is a Darwinian challenge to AMs. It demands CHANGE. We have to EVOLVE. How can you expect improve if you just keep doing the same old thing again and again?
Consider this: shopping at the “community store”, or whatever you want to call it, is something AMs have ALWAYS BEEN DOING ALL ALONG, for the most part. Where did that get us? Did that help the problem or is the problem still with us and maybe even got worse?
Also, and this is something that guys like Jaewhan always keeps forgetting is that this “community” thing takes TWO to tango. Again, AMs for the most part have always been loyal to AFs. But do you think this is reciprocated? For the most part, the answer is NO.
AFs always keep an open-mind and do not limit themselves only to AMs. I really do not understand why AMs cannot be more like this. AMs are always too conservative, afraid to push boundaries, confining themselves to the “community”, always looking for the safe play. It pains me to say this being a AM myself but I’m telling it like it is.
As long as AMs behave like this they deserve all the small dick jokes that get flung their way. This is a coward’s existence.
AFs brought a lot of competition into the market by “outsourcing”. This competition should motivate us to improve ourselves and to become better at our game. Many AMs are doing just that and it is encouraging. Even though this challenge is formidable I believe we have what it takes to rise to the occasion. But you also have to have the will and determination otherwise you’d just fall by the wayside.
My personal conviction is that we need to bring some badly needed competition to them also. The world needs to see AMs being bold, stepping up to the plate, and getting girls of all kinds of backgrounds. Fellow AMs need to see this, so that they know they are not stuck with only ONE choice. AFs need to see this also so that we may challenge their skewed worldview. How many of us have been in that situation where when you were single and alone nobody wanted you but when you finally manage to acquire a gf, all these other girls who wanted nothing to do with you before became suddenly interested? It’s due to this same principle, but on a more macroscopic level, that we need to diversify. But we need to change our own worldview first before we can challenge the worldview of others.
Finally, as a conclusion, bear this in mind: the right path is rarely the path of least resistance.
You have two paths in front of you. Ask yourself: which path will challenge you as a person, make you take more risks, forces you to come out of your comfort zone, forces you to grow and learn, expose you to a bigger, broader world, and overall become a better man?
@jaehwan
I don’t know the guy so who knows why he didn’t try to score with her. Looks aren’t everything. I’m not particularly attracted to her even though I know she is good looking.
@kokukson
I applaud your rhetorical zeal, but frankly how many of us, including yourself, are making an earnest effort to execute this plan of dating non-Asian women?
Besides Asian PUAs and select number of other Asian/Asian-American men out there, I don’t think many of us are. If you have the evidence to prove me otherwise, I will shut up and concede. Otherwise, we’re just sitting here griping about it which really makes us no different than a Rush Limbaugh, Jesse Jackson, Glenn Beck and Al Sharpton who whine about everything. Speaking strictly for myself, I’ve done a lot of it. Some would argue probably too damn much.
In no way am I taking shots at you either. I’m all for galvanizing our Asian brotherhood and AA community. What I want to know is, how do we take action?
What I propose is that we all take an oath to go out and hit on an any attractive woman to take steps forward in shifting the asymmetric dynamics of this marketplace. At least compliment her directly on her beauty or strike up a flirtatious conversation with her. Success or failure, its all a good learning experience and a great story to tell later on.
Otherwise, we’re simply talking about the problem and not DOING something about it.
Creating pact to go out there, rep hard and execute will benefit the collective AA males in the U.S. I want to think of it as something similar to FIGHT CLUB. In fact, it should be easier than Fight Club. No need to get into a physical altercation…
If anyone wants to participate, post your encounters on your blogs or other blogs’ comments section. We can all learn something new and become better players of this Game that’s been on tilt since post-Vietnam War.
Took a blast to the past here.
http://masirjones.blogspot.com/2010/05/cunt-punters-vs-cock-blockers.html
“What I propose is that we all take an oath to go out and hit on an any attractive woman to take steps forward in shifting the asymmetric dynamics of this marketplace.”
Maybe I don’t get this because I’m not Asian, but what’s so hard about talking to cute girls that aren’t of your ethnicity? With most guys it would take quite an effort NOT to talk to cute women.
I applaud your rhetorical zeal, but frankly how many of us, including yourself, are making an earnest effort to execute this plan of dating non-Asian women?
Thanks. BTW, I enjoy your blog.
Besides Asian PUAs and select number of other Asian/Asian-American men out there, I don’t think many of us are. If you have the evidence to prove me otherwise, I will shut up and concede.
I believe there is a growing awareness, at least, and the internet has been a big enabler. The numbers are certainly not overwhelming but you cannot deny that more and more AMs are finally “getting it”.
In no way am I taking shots at you either. I’m all for galvanizing our Asian brotherhood and AA community. What I want to know is, how do we take action?
You gotta start with yourself first. I think working on yourself is already an enormous task, you don’t need the extra burden of feeling responsible for others weighing on you also.
Having said that, I think Asian PUA’s need to band together. PUA’s are pretty much treated like outcasts, even by those who you may call “friends”. So to have fellow, like-minded brothers who simply GET YOU, without you having to explain yourself til your blue in the face, and who are of like mind, face the same challenges, and share the same goals is a very valuable thing. We may all come from different walks of life but we are united by a common struggle and that makes us brothers.
What I propose is that we all take an oath to go out and hit on an any attractive woman to take steps forward in shifting the asymmetric dynamics of this marketplace. At least compliment her directly on her beauty or strike up a flirtatious conversation with her. Success or failure, its all a good learning experience and a great story to tell later on.
I look at PUA the following way: I think of it as “martial arts” for the dating arena. Dating is a battleground. Centuries ago, our ancestors had to develop advanced fighting techniques to protect themselves from wars and chaos. Today, we are learning and honing out skills at a different kind of martial arts for a very different challenge.
For myself, attractive women are not my priority. I like them but that is not what motivates me. I want to master the art of pickup, to hone my skills, and to become a better man overall. I am not interested so much in the fish per se but more in becoming a master fisherman. There’s a difference.
“For myself, attractive women are not my priority. I like them but that is not what motivates me. I want to master the art of pickup, to hone my skills, and to become a better man overall. I am not interested so much in the fish per se but more in becoming a master fisherman. There’s a difference.”
Can you really not see why this practice dummy approach would be “icky” from the viewpoint of any sane female?
That would be icky if you were a sane fish too. No wonder fish hate fishermen…
You’re right, something fishy’s going on!
Three things:
1) I, for one, maintain that AMs still have a better chance with AFs than non-Asian females, even though many AFs categorically reject AMs. I’m not sure if there’s any way to prove this, but this is just my hunch. Obviously you can disagree, and we’ll never resolve this issue. The caveat is that by pursuing non-Asian females, you would increase your chances by sheer numbers since there are more non-Asian females than AFs, even though each individual encounter would be less likely to be fruitful.
2) I still don’t think AMs interracially dating more necessarily solves the problem. If you define the problem as strictly AFs not dating AM, then I can see how A would lead to B would lead to C. However, I define AFs not dating AMs as a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. The real problem is how the Asian community feels about itself and why it feels that way about itself. How those feelings are expressed is secondary. In other words, the problem with Michelle Malkin isn’t that she married a white guy, it’s everything that caused her to marry a white guy (and be herself in general). Increasing the interracial dating rate, in my opinion, does nothing to strengthen the Asian community. In fact, you could argue that it would harm the Asian community.
3) I admire kobukson’s passion and vigor, but it’s still hard for me to swallow the argument that AMs need to hit on more women, get out of their comfort zone, step up to the plate more, etc. The problem has never been us, and I don’t like being told that it is. In fact, we’ve been told so many times that we are the reason we have a hard time getting dates that now we even believe it. Newsflash, there’s nothing wrong with us. People just think there is. I’ll grant that someone who gets rejected a lot could become discouraged and hit on women less, but I will never believe that this is “just how AM are.”
For example, currently I’m dating a Latina. I did not do anything differently in approaching her than the billions and billions of women I’ve approached in the past. In fact, I took her on many of the same dates I’ve taken other women in the past (don’t tell her that). She just happens not to be an idiot and understands that AMs can be romantic partners.
Having said that, I think Asian PUA’s need to band together. PUA’s are pretty much treated like outcasts, even by those who you may call “friends”. So to have fellow, like-minded brothers who simply GET YOU, without you having to explain yourself til your blue in the face, and who are of like mind, face the same challenges, and share the same goals is a very valuable thing. We may all come from different walks of life but we are united by a common struggle and that makes us brothers.
Amen.
One other point. In order for Asian PUAs to band together, we still out to have a forum where we can discuss issues among ourselves. I think this is what APB is trying to achieve, though I’m not sure so much anymore since he’s turned it into a big business and nobody discriminates against money.
APB is a businessman, first and foremost. It’s hard to be down for the AM empowerment cause when so many has given him shit for it, including AMs. Believe, the dude’s gotten lots…LOTS of shit.
I’m going to be attending this NYC conference in June.
http://www.datingconference2010.com/info.php
I wasn’t into the PUA community before. I wasn’t for nor against it. But recent events in my life made me wake up. Now, I am interested in learning to be a PUA. I also need to surround myself with new friends who aren’t already married (and therefore dont care), or think this is something weird, or are content to remain as harmless dickless wonders.
@Kokukson
More power to you brother. A close friend of mine received some PUA training from APB about 4 years back and said the guy is seriously a pro. APB has serious game which came through many trials and tribulations. Its a shame that he gets a lot of flack from even within our own Asian community when he’s actually helping Asian men breakthrough IR dating barriers. In interviews, he never denies that he is objectifying women to an extent. I don’t think APB does it in an unhealthy manner but just enough to get his point across – don’t be afraid to show your sexual side as an Asian-American male. Don’t be afraid to escalate things physically.
Not making a move on a woman for the fear of offending her is the “wussy” way out. I give mad props to Asian guys who are bold enough to do a lot of the things that they do in the Game because its easier said than done. Hell I’ve even had to push myself to do something completely out of the ordinary just to break that vicious cycle of being the quiet, shy, respectful, passive Asian guy.
I’ll give you an example.
One time I called some Asian-American girl (with her white bf…didn’t know he was there at the time either) a bitch once since she was acting like she was all that as if I WANTED to dance with her. Newsflash, but not every guy wants to dance with your ass in the club. We just want to meet people and if you don’t like it when strangers come up and talk to you…don’t come to the party.
She was COMPLETELY stunned ’cause I put her ass in check. Not that I’m advocating you should call any girl who gives you lip a bitch, but I really got sick and tired of having these Asian-American women acting like just because they’re mildly attractive and are dating some white guy, that they go around acting like some princess. It pushed me beyond my comfort zone and I’m glad I did it ’cause she was completely shell shocked.
Now this doesn’t have much to do with PUA but the point is that I’m giving you props for being open minded enough to try out PUA and not knock it before you try it.
If you ever come to Northern California you should hit me up.
Correction on that last paragraph:
Now this doesn’t have much to do with PUA but the point is that I’m giving you props for being open minded enough to try out PUA which requires to step OUTSIDE of your comfort zone and do things that push your personal boundaries.
Hey, look at the droves of women commenters here, Asian and non, who are completely taken by the conversation of these upstanding, stellar, alpha men! We ladies read this thread and thought, “Yeah, yeah! Now these are the kind of men we could have meaningful relationships with!”
Predators rather than protectors. I could see how you lot of folks might turn a gal lesbian.
MaSir:
Let’s be honest…she’s at least ten times better looking than ANY of the women on APB’s site. I can understand how lots of guys could pass her up for personality or other reasons, but for a guy who calls himself the Asian Rake? Hmm…:)
You see, that would definitely prove a point. I remember reading the Game, and seeing how all the PUAs say they almost got a date with so and so. Wouldn’t actually dating these women be a way to show a point? Especially if you happen to be an Asian guy and she has a racial preference for the…um…colonial power.
Etain,
Word.
King,
If there’s one cool thing that’s come from this discussion, it’s the two analogies: community stores and fisherman. Beware of fishy fisherman!
Kobukson:
Jaehwan raises his hand.
King and Larry raise their hands.
Siegfried raises his hand.
TZ:
Haha! Fishers of women rather than fishers of men!. Mark 1:17: “And Jesus said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you become fishers of men.””
The PUA Bible 1:17: And the PUA said to them, “Follow me, and I will make you become fishers of women.”
Seriously, dudes, instead of becoming fishermen who don’t care about the fish, why not become caring people in relationships?
Going back to Kobukson’s comment, why separate yourself from people with good relationships? It’s like trying to become rich by separating yourself from rich people.
“Hey, look at the droves of women commenters here, Asian and non, who are completely taken by the conversation of these upstanding, stellar, alpha men! We ladies read this thread and thought, “Yeah, yeah! Now these are the kind of men we could have meaningful relationships with!”
The writing’s on the wall. Guys, just keep on talking and thinking about male female relationships like a war, or a great battle, or a power struggle, or a complex business transaction! Keep talking about it as if your dating life is some kind of racial revolutionary accomplishment. Compare dating women to self help, or better yet, target practice! The women will love you for it!!!
Either you can see the difference between the real world and the Macho Man fantasy, or you become a PUA and end up telling other guys bullshit stories about your imaginary conquests for money…
@ King..
“Maybe I don’t get this because I’m not Asian, but what’s so hard about talking to cute girls that aren’t of your ethnicity? With most guys it would take quite an effort NOT to talk to cute women.”
I haven’t posted here for a while, but couldn’t resist chiming in on this one!!
King you make a very good point and even though I’m an Asian male, I’ve never really understood the drama that some Asian guys seem to want to create around something as simple as talking to a pretty girl.
I think your question deserves an answer, and I wish someone would answer it. Why is there such drama and angst surrounding something as simple as talking to a non-Asian girl?
@Jaehwan
That assumes that PUAs such as APB posted EVERY single female they’ve dated online. I never said she wasn’t good looking but I personally don’t find her attractive.
It’s not complicated; you just make it that way.
Everyone should choose to walk a righteous path but the environment we are placed in cannot afford it; not if you want to be in positions of power and influence in society. To make it worse, you have assigned us a fixed set of rules to play by when everyone is playing an entirely different game.
It doesn’t mean you have to bring out your inner Machiavelli but it does involve social savvy to be able to “will and mold” situations in your favor.
That’s my main and only point here.
I employed this analogy because it really is that simple. If you employ the concept, it makes sense. The problem is, you inject ridiculous non-sequitur laden details in an attempt to avoid facing reality. It’s your defense mechanism but I find it completely irresponsible behavior from a group of adults. However, I don’t think this is the reason behind the silence. I believe it’s cowardice.
“Patience has it’s limits. Take it too far, and it’s cowardice.” – George Jackson
How many times have I heard from both AMs and AFs that it will eventually fix itself? It could but the fact that you’re not willing to affect change yourself and simply “go with the flow” is exactly what makes Asian Americans weak and not to be taken seriously. In many cases, abused. The treatment you get today is a direct result.
Regardless of what has created this social power vacuum between AFs and AMs doesn’t concern me. What concerns me is that I become part of a solution to fix it.
It matters not to me if I end up looking bad to some random retard on message boards. My concern is to make the situation better for other AMs and future generations. Someone has to step on the landmine to clear the path for the others.
My only goal is to promote my demographics’ interests. Everything else is secondary. You have a situation where AFs are not your allies in this debate. The reason why is because they refuse to acknowledge the concerns of AMs. This lack of concern means that our feelings don’t matter. Thus, we, as human beings, don’t matter.
So, their own concerns are forfeit. Sorry.
In regards to TZ’s comment about how there are no AFs commenting on this:
You’ve never been involved at all so how is it different from any other time?
@ Urban: I don’t understand your question. Please expand on it. What do you mean we have “never been involved at all”? In reference to what? What have we never been involved in?
How many times have I heard from both AMs and AFs that it will eventually fix itself? It could but the fact that you’re not willing to affect change yourself and simply “go with the flow” is exactly what makes Asian Americans weak and not to be taken seriously. In many cases, abused. The treatment you get today is a direct result.
Very true. If the AA community kept quiet about the Philly HS incidents, this shit would never have hit the fan with the press following up on it. And even though the AA community protesting, its still not getting enough attention from the media as it should.
Now for the most part Asian-American Females don’t really care about us. Why should they? They’re moving up the socioeconomic ladder by playing on the “exotic” stereotype that white men beckon. Some of them find Asian men to be “too traditional”. In other cases, I know some Asian girls started dating White guys because they got screwed over by their Asian ex-boyfriends.
When all else equal, I just don’t think they care to defend us. Its not in their best interest. Period. For if they did, many Asian-American men wouldn’t be having this content on their blogs.
I sure as hell don’t see, black or latino men complaining in significant numbers about how they get neglected by their women.
Okay, so let me repost what I’ve said before. My views on PUA haven’t changed at all since my very long blog post:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/12/the-post-pua-era-of-the-asian-american-blogosphere/
In sum: something ought to be done (there are many suggestions in my post that people love to ignore), but PUA is not the answer. PUA is the art of lying. I’m not talking about what they tell us it is; I’m talking about what they really do. If you read the Game, it’s not just the Asian PUAs either.
MaSir:
That may be true. But if it is, why not just concentrate on the ones who do care?
urbs:
Nobody here is silent. Maybe other people are, but not here, and that includes Asian women as well.
I think you can promote your demographics interest best by giving them what they want–relationships. PUA is not the way to do it. It’s dishonest, and therefore it’s shortsighted (see my post which I linked above).
Since we’re using business analogies, let’s give a business example. A guy named Bill walks into your office and wants you to invest $500k of your personal money in his business. He tells you he has $2 million cash in reserves and revenues of $400,000 a year with no debt. He wants your money in order to open two new stores. You talk to him for a while, and you like his presentation, his business idea, etc. Then you ask for his financials. He shows you his balance sheet, and it looks good. You ask for his accountant’s name and number, and he gives it to you.
His accountant says, “$2 million in reserves? I don’t think so. It’s more like $10,000, which he borrowed from his mom. He’s got about $40,000 a year in revenues. The business itself has no debt, but he gave a personal guarantee secured by his house to the bank in order to borrow $500,000.”
You confront the guy, and he says, “Dude, chill. It’s just marketing. We’ll have that money eventually. C’mon.” You show him his doctored balance sheet. He says, “What can I say? I’m good at working with Excel!”
Question 1: Would you give this guy your money? Even if he has a solid business plan, and even if you don’t doubt his heart, you might be unwilling to part with your money on account of his poor values.
Next, your nephew wants to learn how to start a business. He knows Bill, and Bill offers to teach him the ABCs of Attracting Business. He offers to charge your nephew just $1,500 for the secret.
Question 2: Would you give your nephew money to learn from Bill? You could get a much better deal at a community college, or you could teach him yourself. In either case, you could do better in teaching him a good long term outlook.
That’s why PUA is short-sighted. PUAs don’t play to win. They play to use people. They eventually lose.
Did anyone see the Survivor Reunion on Sunday night? It was a great season of Survivor, There’s an interesting exchange where Jeff Probst asks Boston Rob why Russell didn’t win if he plays so hard. (Russell is infamous for lying, backstabbing, and intimidating people into voting the way he wants.) Boston Rob said something like, “Jeff, Russell doesn’t play to win. He plays to make it into the final 3. But he screws everyone along the way. If he wanted to win, he wouldn’t do that.”
PUAs don’t play to win, urbs. You play to win. I play to win. TZ, King, and most of the others on this blog play to win. You know that we’re playing to win because we tell the truth and treat others with respect. And we seem to be moving forward by discussing this issue and making sure people know about it.
Oh f#$k. I’m debating whether this one deserves its own blog post:
http://forums.cozycot.com/relationship/53602-local-guys-not-hot-enough.html
That may be true. But if it is, why not just concentrate on the ones who do care?
Lead the way brother and I will follow suit.
@TZ
AFs have never been involved in the discussion about how this issue affects AMs so you pointing out sarcastically as to the amount of female posters is a moot point.
@Jaehwan
In your example, that’s part of the due diligence process and I would except you to do the research. If you didn’t and got scammed, that’s your own fault.
The problem with your example is that you’re taking an absolute extreme in order to justify your point. One is blatant lying while the other is not. Unless you can give me a real life example that PUA states to intentionally lie to people, it’s hearsay.
Additionally, even if PUA encourages you to lie, it’s up to the individual to do it if they so choose. It has some skill sets that can be useful. It’s like saying that guns are bad. Well, it is if you kill someone with it but it can be helpful if you need to hunt for food.
I am not even sure why you brought up PUA in the first place. My point was not to support this program but rather that anything to fight the status quo is something to be commended.
Would I like someone to start a program to help AM but has a morally correct center like Hitch? Sure. Problem is, no one is doing it so this is the next best thing.
That’s my main point, in the end. No one is doing shit nor talk about it. Therefore, any solution is good. Look at the past few years and you still have no solution. When all else fails, fresh tactics, my friend.
I love that quote from Band of Brothers. “Lt. Dike wasn’t a bad commander because he made bad decisions; Lt. Dike was a bad commander because he made no decisions.”
I’ve seen one, at most TWO blog posts from Asian-American women reppin’ us hard. That’s it. If you think about the sheer size of the AF population, that’s ridiculously low.
So I’m sure many of you have seen this example. For those of you who have not, I will start it off.
http://somekoreanchick.xanga.com/665117840/why-i-will-never-date-a-white-guy-asian-girlwhite-guy-not-for-me/
urbs:
In “The Game,” the first pickup line Mystery teaches Strauss is to tell a story about a conversation with friends or a fight. Strauss says, “Isn’t that lying?” Mystery says, “It’s marketing.” That’s a blatant lie.
I could tell you stories about some of the Asian PUAs we know as well. You saw some of the blatant lying on the 44s. But let’s not get into that because they have their own problems–let’s give them their peace. I submit “The Game” as an example!
My point of the example is that values matter. Lying about your financials, your job, your qualifications, your conversations–it’s a short term strategy. It doesn’t empower you because reputations speak loudly. Karma. People need to have good karma.
Urbs, why does everyone keep saying that we have no solution? Here it is again from 1.5 years ago, just a few months after bigWOWO started:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/12/the-post-pua-era-of-the-asian-american-blogosphere/
Scroll halfway down. Xian, kimtae, Dale Carnegie…THREE solutions!!! People ignore these simple solutions because there’s no gimmick involved. It’s like those guys who buy the P90X when they can just put on their running shoes and go around the block. The entire second half of my LONG blog post is devoted to solutions.
And people do talk about it. Not as much as they should–no doubt–but peoople have to start somewhere. At the blogger’s conference, TMM made a huge deal about it, and everyone heard him!
urbs, you’d actually make a great ambassador for this movement. You’re successful at an honest profession, you’re single, you date women, and you care about causes. Plus you live in an area with lots of Asian guys. I think you’d be a much better leader in this movement than a guy who just teaches lines or a me-only lifestyle.
MaSir:
Cool deal, man. Thanks. I have a big post that will go up in the next week or so, which was actually requested by…drum roll…a female reader. Stay tuned.
In the meantime, can we say something nice about the ones who do care? Or who have supported us, even if it’s in just a very small way? Go here, and drop a nice comment about Yunjin Kim. She’s a great actress, talented, helped to mold a good storyline (though I admit I tuned out of Lost a long time ago), and is stunningly beautiful. She has a classy kind of elegance that goes beyond just hotness. We don’t spend enough time recognizing the positive people in the media! MaSir, please leave a comment!
But if you think about the small number of female bloggers, that’s pretty high! Women blog less than men and they often avoid certain topics because they face a lot of harassment on the web–I was shocked by some of the stories I heard at the Banana Conference.
I’ve got a good essay by an AF that I’ll post later tonight, but in the meantime, check out this blog:
http://seefat.blogspot.com/
There’s lots of pro-AM material there.
“When all else equal, I just don’t think they care to defend us. Its not in their best interest. Period. For if they did, many Asian-American men wouldn’t be having this content on their blogs.” –MaSir Jones
Um, Hi…
Did you see my post from before? Brother, you ARE supported. I do care to defend Asian men, it IS in my best interest–I See Your Value. And there are many of us who feel the same way. We have spoken out in defense of you, right here in this thread, though I wonder how many actually heard us–or even Wanted to hear us…
Understandably, this whole topic can be intensely personal and often volatile on both sides. That is why people need to get to the core of the issues and make the extra effort to hear each other above the din–so we can be sure we don’t take anybody out in friendly fire. We have to look underneath the name calling and accusations to see the hurt feelings. We have to be on our best behavior and lead with our hopes, not our fears, if we want to start to heal this situation.
That’s why the AM I am with is so awesome–he gets that. And he gets me.
I’ll say it again to make sure I am heard:
I AM AN ASIAN WOMAN WHO THINKS ASIAN MEN ROCK!!!
If you still can’t hear it after that…then I got nuthin’.
I am an American male (not White or Asian…dose that still count as an American?:-) ) I feel the Asian mans plight, but in reality most people marry their own. Look at what you see in your own life, in the real world not the advertised world of cyberspace and tv shows. Most of my Asian friends have an Asian wife, most of my Black friends have a Black wife or GF….or both
It sounds to me like the only solution here that would blanket-appease the kind of men commenting on this thread is for women of Asian descent everywhere to be submissive to the demands and wishes of Asian men. We should not question, we should not criticize, we should not demand for more out of a relationship. We oughta just date the first Asian man who asks; and we oughta just marry the first Asian man who asks.
And if that is in fact the demand, then can you really blame Asian women for the choices they make and the ideologies and assumptions they hold?
A great number of Asian women activists support the contentions that Asian men make about the detrimental effects colonialism have had on interpersonal relationships within our community. Perhaps the reason Urban and a few others here don’t see that is because they are the proverbial blind man feeling one section of the elephant and concluding the entire animal is a particular way and only that way.
TZ, please don’t try that ole Kingstonian trick on us, OK? Who amongst us suggested that Asian women should be submissive to the demands and wishes of Asian men? When all else fails whip out the ole chavinistic Asian male card, right?
But since you insisted on bringing up this non-sequitor, I think it’s the other way around. It’s more like women like you want Asian men to stay in their “proper places”, right? You want to maintain the status quo. The status quo where Asian men remain cowed, marginalized in the social domain, and afraid to explore any other option besides Asian women, while Asian women do whatever the hell they want. The status quo where the power balance is heavily shifted in favor of Asian women. I totally get it. Why would you want this to change?
Well, fuck the status quo. Much of this discussion is not directed toward Asian women anyway. The message is for AMs by AMs.
Do whatever it takes to empower yourselves and undo all the years of the mindfuck you had to endure, brothers. By any means necessary. Do not listen to the detractors. They all have their own agendas.
Remember, gender relations is fundamentally a power struggle. Instinctively they know this also and the ladies are not doing you any favors. Most of the time, whether they know it or not, they are working against you. Do not think that Asian women are your only choice.
And for those of you who are more interested in “dialogue” and “community” (looking at you Jaewhan), realize that meaningful dialogue cannot occur when there is such a lopsided power balance (can we agree on this, at least?) Only when Asian women see Asian men getting fed up and out-dating in increasing numbers and them saying “hey, whats going on here?” can we have meaningful talk. And it’s guys like me, Masir, and urban who are going to make that happen. Otherwise, it’s all bullshit. Because this inter-gender dialogue is really a negotiation and you cannot negotiate without leverage. Right now Asian men have little leverage. Asian women know this and they use it to their own advantage.
@ kobu: It humors me that you claim I resort to logical fallacies and then do so yourself.
From the bottom of my heart, I truly am sorry you have had such foul experiences to make you conclude as you have about intergender relations.
The Asian men I know, however, do have leverage, and lots of it. They’re impressive men, accomplished professionals, highly-paid executives, entrepreneurs, they’ve got loads of talent, loads of good common sense, and take care of their own. That in fact is one of the generalized attributes of Asian men that appeals to me the most: they take care of their own. Based on what I read here, I would question whether the likes of you would do the same. I’d consider that a trait you’d want to try harder to retain.
TZ, I know an ad hominem attack when I see one, however disguised or indirect it may be. When you cannot properly address your opponent’s arguments in a debate, question his character. Works every time.
I am glad you are attracted to Asian men who are accomplished, highly-paid professionals and executives. I’m sure the part about being “highly-paid” helps a lot. Hear that fellas? God help you if you’re not some doctor, lawyer, or executive making some serious coin. Some generic white boy could make $24,000 less…LESS…than you and he’ll still have the upper hand. You all saw that fucked up Columbia Univ study that came out about a year ago.
TZ, I wanna ask you: What gives you the right to expect or demand anything from Asian men? From whence this sense of entitlement? Yes, there are many Asian men who “take care of their own” despite getting shat on by Asian women left and right. Being square and responsible seems to be in the DNA of Asian men.
Asian women made it clear long ago that Asian men don’t “own them”. You’ve must have heard something like this by now, right? Well, guess what? Asian women don’t “own” Asian men, either. Why should I consider Asian women my “own”. What, because we happen to share a similar phenotype? Asian women have carved a whole special identity for themselves. Whether Asian guys fit into that picture depends on a host of factors that have little to do with a sense of shared identity or common ground. There is no common ground. I really don’t understand why Asian women expect Asian men to be loyal to them when girls like Jamie Yeo make videos like the one seen above. That takes some huge truckloads of chutzpah.
My personal opinion about this whole “Asian community”, in general, is that it is largely a granfalloon (That’s a word invented by Kurt Vonnegut in his book “Cat’s Cradle”, BTW, in case you didn’t know, which is highly likely). It means a group of people who outwardly claim a shared purpose or identity but whose mutual association is actually meaningless. This thing most folks here refer to as The Community is largely an idealized fantasy that exists mostly in your own mind. Reality is not so neat and simple.
I take care of my own. I look out for fellow AMs.
MaSir,
It’s up:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/05/sister-can-you-lend-an-ear-by-julia-oh/
Kobukson,
Appreciate the dialogue, but you got TZ wrong. Totally wrong. She didn’t mention “highly paid” as a means of talking who she is attracted to; she merely mentions the money to show that some Asian men have leverage through that money. Urban himself has mentioned that he’s highly paid. It’s what it is–people with money have leverage. And God bless them. Urban helped us hit our Sam Yoon goal, which empowered an Asian American man to make a good run for mayor of Boston. I’m not rich, but everything I do–from bringing Frank Chin to Portland, hosting Curtis Choy, helping with a workshop with writer Ed Lin–costs money. The fact that we were able to get men and women to donate money for these events PROVES that we’ve got some power as a collective group.
About the IR stuff: of course the Columbia study is probably correct with lots of Asian women–that’s why it’s a study, and I’m glad they did it. It proves that you and I aren’t crazy. But that race preference is not true with all women. I think that’s what TZ was talking about with regards to the elephant that the blind men think they know. You can’t look at the whole and assume it’s true of all Asian women.
You’re also right to call out Kingstonian hypocrisy. But again, that’s not TZ, or RiceCakeRabbit, or any of the regular women who post here. None of them have pooh poohed you or me the way Kingston pooh poohed Frank Chin and all the real activists of the 60′s and 70′s. In fact, they’ve acknowledged your complaints, the same way I have. And they’re dating/married to Asian men. They get you. I’m sure their husbands/boyfriends complain about the same stuff you and I do.
I do think there is one question that I’d like you and maybe urban to answer, and that question is this: What would you like Asian women to do? TZ and RiceCakeRabbit are both dating/married to Asian men. Both speak up for Asian men. Both acknowledge that there is an IR imbalance and that it’s wreaked havoc on us. What else is there that you would ask them to do? I’m having trouble thinking of what else it is that y’all want from them.
STRONGLY disagree. STRONGLY. So if I’m a a diplomat from Togo, I can’t have meaningful dialogue with the U.S.? If I’m Martin Luther King in the early 1960′s, I can’t have meaningful dialogue with the President of the United States? Dialogue is crucial, and it’s important that it takes place NOW.
Let’s get real. Asian men WANT to have relationships with Asian women. If they didn’t, this wouldn’t be a big deal for you, me, urban, Larry, MaSir, or even the PUAs. How are you going to have relationships without dialogue? It’s NOT a negotiation. You don’t negotiate when you ask out a girl, nor do you negotiate when you’re creating art or educating people about the power imbalances in our society.
By the way, I’m totally fishing for some PUA supporters to say something nice about Yunjin Kim in that other blog post. Yunjin is keeping it real, and even though it may have been a totally unpolitical decision, she reps you and me with her choice of marriage partner by not following the trend. She lets you and me know that a beautiful successful Asian woman can still see a human being inside a person who happens to be an Asian male. Will you post a compliment for her? Don’t you think she deserves a positive word from all of us? If so, post it here:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/05/beauty-and-the-ethnic-woman/
Haha…let me correct that. MOST people don’t negotiate when they ask out a woman. I have met some PUAs who do:
“Date me and I’ll stop harassing you!”
Hahaha!
TZ and Kobukson,
Its obvious that the both of you are coming and speaking from 2 different places by the content of your comments. I understand both arguments so I’m not going to “take sides”. But here is what we do know:
1. There is an imbalance in the IR dating scene.
2. That imbalance is heavily tipped toward the women.
3. Many Asian men are upset about it calling the women “sellouts” or “self-hating Asians” while our female counterparts call us whiners.
4. Media and entertainment does not help, only hurts us.
So which came first? The chicken or the egg? Well if Asian women are the chicken, then the chicken came first because Asian men would not be so critical of the situation IF we didn’t see it in such large numbers on recurring basis. Why?
Because both Asian men and women rarely complain to be begin with. So in order for Asian men to raise their voices, it obviously must be statistically significant enough for us take time out of our day to BLOG about it.
So yes we are complaining, but we aren’t stopping there. We are following up with action to back our voices for a change. And though we have very little power to change the mentality of Asian women who lust over White men, we have all the power to change the mentality and actions within ourselves.
This is our message and our 2nd step.
I want to make one more point.
I should clarify that the blame is not entirely on the Asian woman for dating outside her race. Much of this is also the man’s fault as well, but everyone is arguing from their own experience so obviously nobody is going to be in agreement with one another.
Ultimately, more than anything, I do want to see my fellow AA brothers step up their game. Its been long overdue. Let’s drop the filial piety bullshit and start carving our own path to dating success and fulfillment.
Kobu: I did not attack your character, but it intrigues me that you believe I have.
Asian couples are always going to be the best and in reality most know this is a fact.
Ignore the corporate propaganda selling IR online with white men with Asian women.
I don’t understand how dating outside someone’s race is measure of stepping up either. It’s being anti Asian.
Filial piety for the win!
Well, I’ve sat back to just watch the discussion unfold. This topic has been discussed quite a bit and it still strikes a raw nerve.
But in trying to step outside of this dynamic, the thought occured to me, “is it paralysis by analysis?” If you over think some things, you get into a state where one doesn’t act.
I’m not crazy about the dynamic we AM’s see. I do like seeing on occasion a really pretty Asian female with a handsome Asian guy, I think to mysel, “right on!”.
It’s get disheartening to frequently see really pretty Asian females going out with dorky looking white guys. It just subtly signifies that us average looking Asian guys just aren’t good enough but a dorky white guy is. And the ladies shouldn’t get offended with the use of “our women”. Nothing possessive is meant by it, unless it’s an asshole saying it in a strictly paternalistic way, other than what I believe is it’s true meaning: you’re one of us. You’re our Asian sisters just as much as we are your Asian brothers.
But outside of that dynamic, then, you just have to date whomever is around you. Why put your life on hold? It’s great if you can find some AF you can go out with because you automatically have something in commone: being Asian! But I wouldn’t put my eggs in one basket or hold my breathing waiting for the opportunity to date an AF. Life will pass you by in you sit around waiting, so you might as well experience the diversity of women around you. And you don’t have to do the PUA stuff, unless you spend all your time in bars and nightclubs. And that isn’t such a great place to meet anyone for a relationship.
Although I wasn’t going to make any further comment or responses to this thread, I read Mojorider’s comment and wanted to say that Mojo is spot on.
Mojo often is.
Careful, guy.
You’re treading into the realm of how things should work, not how they actually work.
Again, something that keeps you at a score of zero because you don’t know the actual rules because you complain that the rules don’t make sense to you.
Byron,
You cannot have a meaningful discussion with anyone as an equal if you have no leverage. As a representative of Togo, you might be able to talk with the United States but when there is a disagreement, you have no influence to negotiate with. MLK was able to hold a discussion because a large segment of whites were sympathetic. Not only that, he had the support of the community.
Look at it like this, our industry had a history of abusing workers which is why unions were formed. If a union went on strike, industries stopped functioning; anyone who crossed union lines were harassed and beaten. You moved as a group. Thus, industry was forced to listen to the workers and comply with demands.
The way this relates to the AM community is that the balance of power is totally lopsided which leads to exploitation. This always leads to abusiveness. To make matters worse, you have some workers, which industry loves to promote, decrying others as being lazy and saying how they don’t need a union. Thus keeping the power forever in the hands of industry. AMs have little to no support from AFs because one cannot contribute equally. If there is a disagreement, they simply leave the reservation. You do what you’re told because AFs have put you in a box socially.
I mean, why would the possibily *want* to give you power to negotiate? It’s like the US giving Togo free weapons and access codes to 500 of our nuclear missile silos.
There are so many holes in the article “Brother, can you spare a spine?” article. The author is looking at the situation from a logical point of view. He stipulates that AM are hypocrites when they criticize AFs who date whites but high-five other AMs when they themselves date out. Logically, yes, they would be hypocritical. Problem is, the notion is incorrect.
You have a disparity. It is impossible to remove it if you allocate one-for-one. You have to give one side more while giving the other side less. Isn’t this the reason why there is so much conflict in the first place? The greater the rift, the greater the conflict. Yin-Yang anyone? Balance in the force? China and it’s rift between rich and poor? China and it’s gender disparity ratio? It’s perfectly fine to condone one while condemning the other. If there wasn’t a disparity and AMs still complain, only then would they be hypocrites.
This is not even bringing up the added bonus that the sheer existence of AF/WM reinforces the asexual stereotype which WM dominated society has placed onto AMs. This unique trait makes the situation that much worse.
This thread will end exactly how it always does. One lone Asian guy will eventually admit fault to which AFs will agree. Then, every AFs will point to that one lone AM poster and proceed to use him as a club to stomp on every other AM who dares complain. Then, we’ll all be suckered into believing that AFs are the true victims and the discussion will continue to move nowhere.
I would like to conclude with a personal observation. Many people ask me how I moved so quickly to where I am in life; I simply responded “Life is easy, I got to where I am because I use common sense. That’s it.”
Everyone here states that there is no proof that my theories will fix things. Let me tell you something straight; I know my methods are working. How? I’ve tested them. I’ve noticed that when Meg and myself talk to other AMs about this topic, their confidence level skyrockets. When we talk to non-Asian women, their views coorispond with mine. I am was suprrised and glad to know that many are sympathetic. The only group that isn’t are AFs. Why? Simple. They stand to lose from the discussion.
I’ll leave with a simple quote. It’s not 100% applicable but you get the idea.
“The concept of nonviolence is a false ideal. It presupposes the existence of compassion and a sense of justice on the part of one’s adversary. When this adversary has everything to lose and nothing to gain by exercising justice and compassion, his reaction can only be negative.” – George Jackson
One more thing, I really hate people who state the comment:
“Oh, I have no control of so I just ended up doing ”
It shows that you have zero control over your own destiny. You just drift to where the tides take you.
I hate this because it’s the typical retarded loser mentality. When I was growing up, my dad bought his first Mercedes. He worked more hours, walked to work instead of taking the subway, and saved as much as he could to buy it. Now, he could have said “Screw this, I’ll just get a Chevy Malibu. I’m tired of walking.”
He didn’t. He kept hammering away until he was able to buy it. I had the same mentality. I could just let fate take me into a Chevy dealership but I decided to do what I wanted to do.
Like I commented before, this topic has been re-hashed to death and it’s quite striking that this just drills down on such a raw nerve between AFs and AMs.
Thing is, I don’t waste my time on someone who wouldn’t waste their time on me. Why the hell would I waste my time on some out-dating AF who wouldn’t give me the time of day? Move on to something better. That’s my point. And if that means you having to out-date, yourself, then by all means do it.
despite my area having a small but decent sized Asian population, I don’t run into a lot of AF’s in my social circles. They’re out there, I see them in bars and other big social gatherings. I’ve dated a few AFs but I’ve mostly dated out not because of some agenda or that I was out to prove something. I dated these non-Asian women because they were simply around me. I don’t know if that’s the same for the AF’s in my area in most respects or not.
As for admission of guilt and blame, I don’t think there is anyone here that has admitted culpability to which AFs will agree and use as a weapon for more AM bashing. We all know the social dynamic that exists. is it possible to transcend the entire AFs as victims of the possessive and controlling AMs and the balance of power arguments? Nobody likes the dynamic that exists. We don’t have to like it or accept it. But at what point do you simply just live your life? Without any agenda or having something to prove?
If you wanna score, then fine, go forth and do your PUA thing. Have fun sowing your oats. But if you’re ready for a relationship, isn’t compatability in whomever you partner up with more meaningful? But that isn’t an excuse for AFs who have a contempt for their counterparts. I’m no apologist for white washed AFs. I’m just saying that AM’s should get out there and date non-Asian women rather than sitting around waiting to find some AF to date.
Simple. The answer is this: nothing. I expect NOTHING from them.
All of you should have realized a long time ago that discussing IR disparity with Asian women is a fool’s errand. A complete and utter waste of time and energy.
I’m also completely fed up with the constant grievance-mongering from the cohorts of the Asian Males as an Oppressed Minority Ethnic Studies Department.
My focus is on myself and other AMs. My focus is not on Asian women. If one of them challenges me, like TZ did, then I will address them, but in case none of you notice yet, 95% of my message is directed at other Asian guys. And my message, in a nutshell, is “Wake the fuck up! You need to CHANGE.”
This is a men’s issue. Men do not discuss their problems with women. That is always a big mistake.
Another mistake: making Asian women the focal point of the IR discussion. Why do they do this? Why do they do that? Why do so many Asian girls hook up with dorky white guys? Blah Blah Blah. Screw it.
By making Asian women the focal point of the IR debate, you are just giving them more power and leverage. You might as well be a one-legged man at a butt-kicking contest.
What should be the focus then? Yourselves and other AMs. Empowerment. Ask not “why are Asian women doing this or that?” but ask “what can we Asian men, despite our challenges, do to empower ourselves and that of our fellow brothers?” Big difference.
Regarding PUA community: ridicule and neglect the tools and methods you’ll need for empowerment at your own peril. A lot of you are shitting on the PUA community because you have Stockholm Syndrome, and have been brainwashed by women to shit on it even as they consume magazines like the Cosmo and watch Sex and the City and learn to manipulate men.
I am a student of history, especially Asian history. The biggest mistakes that Asian civilizations made were when they destroyed new technology, became insular and closed themselves off from the broader world because of tradition. In the 15th century, Ming China possessed advanced navigation techniques and a fleet of huge treasure ships. Admiral Zheng He was making voyages half way around the world a hundred years before Columbus. Ming dynasty China was poised to conquer the world. But what happened? There was political infighting in the imperial court between the faction responsible for the voyages and others who were against all that. Unfortunately for China, the latter faction prevailed and the treasure ship fleet was destroyed along with the shipyards and even the records of Zheng He’s exploits. All done in the name of upholding tradition.
If the Ming imperial court had promoted the treasure fleet voyages and poured resources into shipbuilding technology and so forth, the Age of Exploration would have belonged to China rather than Europe. Subsequent world history would have been dramatically different.
Today, when I witness AMs bashing programs designed for male empowerment it reminds me of what happened in China 600 years ago. Those who are arguing to maintain the status quo, the community, and be loyal to Asian women are suffering from a severe lack of imagination. You all need to think more broadly and differently. The best thing to do is let go of old things and explore a new reality.
Filial piety does not get you laid.
Some folks are just oppositional against white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. It’s a political statement. Yeah, you SHOULD date whoever you want but when a women of color feels the only thing prize worthy is white male masculinity, using the excuse it’s a \preference,\ well, you believe in the hype. That’s probably a good time to start de-colonizing yourself so you can achieve a healthier preference, regardless of race.
And remember… cocaine is a powerful drug.
Amen Kobkuson. My sentiments exactly.
Mojo,
I have no idea what you’re arguing against; we’re essentially saying the same thing. AMs need to get off the reservation, yes?
In regards to Kobkuson’s post, I concur. Byron, don’t you recall in our podcast together about what AFs could do? My response is the same as it was then.
“Nothing.”
The reason why is because AMs will never gain with a discussion. What will eventually happen is that the discussion will be warped into AMs trying to control AFs, “it’s my life and I do what I want to,” etc etc. They have proven this time and time again. It never changes because AFs only stand to lose out of the conversation so why have it in the first place?
I think what has happened is that AFs have set up the system to kill any type of conversation by employing the “insecurity” card. It’s very similar to when whites pull the “race” card.
In essence, whites have killed conversations about race time and time again by questioning why everything has to be about race. This puts minorities on the defensive as their confidence is questioned; as if minorities always have to invoke race as a crutch for their sufferings.
AFs do the same. The discussion always eventually delves into questioning the insecurity of AMs which puts AMs on the defensive.
Both scenarios always play out the same and keeps the status quo in place. Thus, AMs who do have issues, are silenced and afraid of speaking out. Not only that, other AMs help AFs silence them for fear of being lumped into the same “bitter” crowd.
I only have two main points:
1. AMs must split off and go their own path. The way AFs have acted, there is no other choice. Pack your bags and leave the rediciousless of “Asian America.” AFs don’t care so why should you? Let it go and drift into nothingness. If AFs cared so much about it, they wouldn’t come back to visit only when it suited them. They’re fair weather people.
2. AFs need to stop saying they support AMs or Asian America while this topic is running rampant. I hate the hypocrisy. While I understand you want to have your cake and eat it too, it doesn’t jive with me. The reasoning is simple; the emasculation of AMs is a primary, not a secondary, concern. The disparity reinforces that image. So, just the sheer existence of this pairing enforces the stereotype.
Sorry, folks, them’s the breaks. It’s not fair but life’s not fair. Try living in a world with real rules, not made up fantasy rules.
AMs must split off and go their own path. The way AFs have acted, there is no other choice. Pack your bags and leave the rediciousless of “Asian America.”
Exactly.
Upholding Asian America takes TWO to tango. Asian women have largely left you hanging high and dry, fellas. Don’t kid yourselves into thinking otherwise. The business of preserving and protecting Asian America has largely turned into a sausage fest. I don’t see Asian women creating blogs or writing large treatises on preserving the community, etc. But you do see them creating videos like the one above. When you have to keep re-posting the same eight-year-old article written by Julia Oh, you’re in trouble. If you keep pinning on the false hope that righteous Asian women will materialize out of the woodwork to meet you halfway, you will be consistently disappointed time and time again.
It’s a rather harsh reality that we live in and I understand why many of my fellow brothers prefer to continue sticking their heads in the sand. But I think the first step to self-improvement is to rid ourselves of any delusions, face our situation squarely like men, and to accept the situation for what it is.
I also believe that this persistent mentality common to many Asian guys, that they are limited to Asian women only, is a very unhealthy one. It is unhealthy because if you think that, and continue to see many Asian girls out-dating, IT’S GONNA WREAK HAVOC on your self-esteem. If something like this happened to any group, and I don’t care if you’re Asian, White, Black, Purple, male or female, IT’S GONNA WREAK HAVOC on their self-esteem. You also develop a “scarcity-mentality” and that’s gonna have a profoundly negative effect on any relationships you may have in your life.
Speaking of the “scarcity-mentality”, I dont know if anyone here’s read Arthur C Clarke’s “2001: A Space Odyssey”. In the first chapter of the book, the author takes you back millions of years ago before homo sapien when early mankind was just emerging from being apes. He describes the existence of a group of man-apes in what is now the African savanna. It reminds you of the words of Thomas Hobbes: “nasty, brutish, and short”. They haven’t yet discovered fire nor learned how to use tools. They don’t know how to hunt. Yet there’s lots of warthogs (the predecessor to modern pigs) roaming in the savanna. The author states, “in the midst of plenty, the man-apes were slowly starving to death”. Later on, one of the man-apes, referred to as “Moonwatcher”, experiences a random mutation in his brain which dramatically increases his intelligence, and thus his survivability. He discovers how to use stones as instruments to hunt warthogs to feed himself and his family as well as to subdue a hostile, rival group of man-apes.
In the context of the dating marketplace, Asian men in America are in an analogous situation as Arthur C Clarke’s man-apes. Within a “midst of plenty”, Asian men are slowly starving to death due to the scarcity-mentality. Like the man-apes who confined themselves to picking berries and insects for sustenance, unaware that there are tons of nourishing meat roaming nearby, many Asian guys confine themselves to only Asian women, exacerbating an ongoing problem.
Like I said before, the IR disparity is a Darwinian challenge. If we are going to survive in a harsh environment, if we are going to succeed, and if we are going to pass on our genes (literally), we MUST evolve. To evolve means to change. And you will need tools and methods that you’ve never considered before.
I think that the context of what Jaehwan was asking was what more do you want Asian women SUCH AS HE HAS DESCRIBED BELOW to do? Not what do you want Asian women, as a conveniently one-size-fits-all-blame group to do.
jaehwan quote 1
“But again, that’s not TZ, or RiceCakeRabbit, or any of the regular women who post here. None of them have pooh poohed you or me the way Kingston pooh poohed Frank Chin and all the real activists of the 60’s and 70’s. In fact, they’ve acknowledged your complaints, the same way I have. And they’re dating/married to Asian men.”
jaehwan quote 2
“What would you like Asian women to do? TZ and RiceCakeRabbit are both dating/married to Asian men. Both speak up for Asian men. Both acknowledge that there is an IR imbalance and that it’s wreaked havoc on us. What else is there that you would ask them to do?”
I guess when I’m in a hurry, I don’t articulate my point well enough. I’m not really arguing against anything as much as I’m trying to lend a different perspective. And that is to get outside the death spiral of the dynamic. There’s too much psychic baggage with this shit that affects both male and female.
Because quite honestly, I don’t choose to waste my time with that particular AF, the Jamie Yeo’s of this world. Obviously, I don’t like what they represent or their contempt for the Asian male. As for what AF should/could do? Who cares? Those that are sympathetic, great. Those that hold AM’s in contempt? they can go jam it up their asses for all I care.
And I guess that’s the difference—I’m not quick to paint all AF with a broad brush. Nor do I feel like I have to prove something or to gain leverage in struggling against the social dynamic. I don’t gotta prove shit to anyone, least of all some stuck up AF nor do I take shit from the Jamie Yeo’s, the Elaine Chao’s, Kingstons, etc, of this world. My feeling is, if all you do is think in terms of power struggles and power balances, leverage, etc…(and I don’t know if some of you really consciously do that or not), then you’re carrying psychic baggage. These girls are inside your head and they’re stomping around inside.
My head ain’t in the sand but c’mon, fuggit! Live life. Live YOUR life. And do it the best you can. Because it’s ending minute by minute. And I’m not going to waste it by arguing with some AFs who want to protect their exalted status. Besides, you can’t argue with someone who ain’t paying attention, completely oblivious to the assault on Asian males.
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Sorry, I’ve been getting slammed at work. Plus I’ve been writing fiction. I need to catch up. I’ll do my best. I just posted a piece about “leaving the reservation.” See it here. Kobukson and urb4n and MaSir, would be interested in your thoughts.
King,
Thanks for the clarification. You’re totally right. What should TZ do? Is the answer really “nothing?” If so, that sounds rather dismissive of someone who could be a strong ally. Or are we so powerful that we don’t need allies? Kobukson?
Urbs,
Who said anything about discussing as equals? With the exception of certain so-called feminists caught in the Pin-the-tail-on-the-Asian-male mindset from Kingston and others, I think most people–men and women–will acknowledge that there are advantages that Asian women have in society compared to Asian men. That’s not to say that they have absolute advantages–men still have some advantages in the workplace when it comes to promotions to upper management, etc.–but socially there’s a discrepancy that favors Asian women. In terms of access in the media, there’s also a big discrepancy (Where’s the AM Connie Chung?).
But that doesn’t mean you can’t have a meaningful discussion. MLK had a large segment of sympathetic whites, but it still wasn’t equal. Whether he wanted to or not, he had to use nonviolence BECAUSE he had so little power. (And you’re 100% right–he had the support of the community).
Urbs, I think in general you’re right. When I see Zhang Ziyi and Wendi Deng making Snow Flower into a movie starring Hugh Jackman, I can’t help but think about the power they wield. That being said, it’s not like we have NO power. There’s a great business book called Judo Strategy which talks about how small companies defeat larger companies.
http://www.people.hbs.edu/dyoffie/html/
Coke vs. Pepsi, Budget vs. Hertz, etc. Small companies can still thrive.
Not that I think Asian men need to defeat Asian women, but I do think that the whole power question is somewhat overstated.
Kobu,
Thanks for the book rec. I may check that out after I’m done reading my Flannery O’Connor book. I might have more to say once I read it.
First, I only bash programs that encourage people to lie and deceive. In my PUA post, there were three, more honest proposals for empowerment. No one has yet examined them.
I’m curious as to your thoughts about the Zhang Ziyi post. I just don’t think Asian men can do it. Attraction is not a choice.
What do you think? Are you attracted to Asian women? Could you stop that attraction?
Great quote.
It’s not that we don’t need allies; it’s that we have none. To the semantic purists, give me a break. Yes, there may be a few helpful AFs; it’s not something to be expected from the demographic as a whole.
Humanity is naturally selfish. How many celebrities crusade for medical research unless they or a loved one is suffering from it? The last thing AFs want to promote is the appeal of AMs. First, why would they fight for something that doesn’t affect them? Second, why would they wish to fight a system that allows them to hold social leverage over them?
The only people who wish for you to succeed either have nothing to lose and are not threatened by your abilities. If AMs increase their appeal, AFs have to fight others for attention. The writing is on the wall as to why it’s in their best interests to keep you in a box. At least recognize the box.
In regards to the discussion comment, Byron, what in the world is the point of having a discussion if you’re not sitting at the table as an equal? So I can be talked down and told what to do? I also disagree that AMs have more leverage than AFs in certain aspects of life. At the very best, we’re at par. The reason is simple. AMs, or males of any kind, are a threat to the current power structure. AFs are less threatening so they get promoted far faster than AMs would.
I remember a quote by Malcolm X: In short, he stated that the civil rights movement would never have succeed without him and MLK working together. The reason is pretty obvious; since the population viewed him as the unattractive militant, MLK seemed like a much more attractive person to deal with. Both were working towards almost the same goal.
In regards to your “companies” example, those smaller companies survive because there are anti-trust and anti-predatory pricing laws in place.
Look, Byron, you know I think the world of you and guys like King. Aside from being smart, you both always look at the glass being half empty. However, the rational and arguments you guys bring up is truly scary to me. It’s not your optimism, it’s the fact that you don’t know how underhanded the world really is. God bless you guys for trying to change that but I think it’s just a matter of time before your opinions end up inadvertently hurting the ones you are fighting for.
urbs,
I think in general it’s hard to count on a demographic. I don’t post it here very much, but in the course of my fundraising, I couldn’t believe the amount of fronting by certain Asian businessmen who just wound up screwing us and trying to take the glory.
Which is what I’m saying about Asian women and people in general. You’ve got TZ and RiceCakeRabbit here who support you. Why not support them? Why not open your circle to them? Both are dating or married to Asian men, but even if they weren’t, why not open yourself to them?
One thing that I’ve learned in this whole activism thing is that that it pays to know people. Individuals. Don’t expect an Asian woman to support you because she’s Asian, but don’t expect it from Asian men either. In both cases, you’ll wind up disappointed. Instead, get to know individuals and enrich them and allow them to enrich you.
Also, I don’t know if I agree with you that Asian women have nothing to gain by empowering Asian men. Part of the problem for Asian women is that there are no men to defend their honor or verbally defend them when it comes to issues of racialized sexism. White guys don’t usually do it. Asian men could do it, but they often don’t have the knowledge and/or support to do so. If Asian men were empowered, Asian woman would be too.
I remember a quote by Malcolm X: In short, he stated that the civil rights movement would never have succeed without him and MLK working together. The reason is pretty obvious; since the population viewed him as the unattractive militant, MLK seemed like a much more attractive person to deal with. Both were working towards almost the same goal.
I read an excellent book by a Black professor at a theological school, James Cone, entitled: “Martin, Malcolm, and America: Dream or Nightmare”. MLK and Malcolm X were two opposite but complementary halves of the Civil Rights Movement. MLK believed in integration. Malcolm X believed in Black nationalism and separatism. MLK wanted to work with sympathetic whites and appeal to their sense of morality. Malcolm X dismissed whites and was a militant who appealed to the Black Power Movement. MLK was a peacemaker. Malcolm X preached: by any means necessary.
Both played indispensable roles in the Civil Rights Movement. MLK would not have been as successful if Malcolm X was not in the picture. Interestingly enough, towards the end of their lives Malcolm X became more like MLK, especially after his departure from the Nation of Islam and his trip to Mecca. MLK became more like Malcolm X, especially after the Birmingham church bombing which killed four young girls.
Hans J Morgenthau, an intellectual who studied international politics and relations, founded the school of thought called “political realism”. He said that “interest and power are the primary drivers in relations between nations”. Attractive ideals, appeals to common decency and innate morality is useless unless it is backed by raw power. This understanding has influenced US foreign policy during Henry Kissinger’s tenure (Realpolitik) and America’s dealings with the former Soviet Union during the Cold War.
Although Morgenthau used “political realism” to describe relations between nations, I think it can also be applied fairly well to understand the Civil Rights Movement as well. MLK represented the moral high ground and the attractive ideals but it would have been largely futile if not backed by Malcolm X’s Black Power. I think Political Realism can be applied to any competing or conflicting group of humans whether the group takes the form of nations, racial groups, or gender.
You see where I am going with this.
In our very own IR disparity “dialogues”, no one is against the Jaewhans of this debate, the appeasers and the apologists. However, what everyone consistently fails to realize is that the flip side of that is also necessary.
And I repeat: The IR disparity is fundamentally a power struggle between gender within the Asian community. Appeals to common decency, ideals, or morality is NOTHING if not backed by a more militant element.
Kobukson
“The IR disparity is fundamentally a power struggle between gender within the Asian community.”
I’d disagree with this entirely. Class is the root of the IR issue. Simply put, the IR dialogue is generally carried out over the internet probably between men and women who are likely to have at least a four year degree, are likely to be in well paid jobs, and for whom financial hardships are unlikely to be much of a concern.
Given that in New York there is greater poverty amongst Chinese immigrants than African-Americans (who knew!), and that some SE Asian communities wallow in extreme poverty and crime I fail to see how militancy regarding IR will in any way contribute to these more pressing issues. In fact, elevating IR to such an extent that people would quote Malcolm and Martin makes the IR angst seem like the height of self-absorption.
I know that there are many Asian women that like to denigrate Asian men, it’s happened to me a couple of times. But I haven’t remained angry about it because I confronted it in the moment, and that’s all that has to be said! If you, me or anybody wants to present ourselves as role models then that is all we need to tell Asian boys – if someone (anyone) is trying to put you down then confront it. Simple. Let’s save our militancy for real issues.
terri,
I’ve heard this kind of argument before. Some people try to trivialize the IR disparity by coming up with a different issue that is a total non-sequitur to the discussion at hand, in this case poverty among Chinese immigrants. Yes, I am sure that is a very compelling problem and if it was something that affected me deeply I am sure I would sympathize with your statement. However, I’m inclined to think that busting in and saying, “hey, the thing that I care about is more important than whatever it is that’s bugging you so let’s pay more focus on this issue that I care about” is unlikely to win you sympathy points. If someone else came at you and said: hey, global warming is more important than Chinese immigrant’s poverty so stop whining about your stupid problem”, what is your likely reaction?
I find the “hey, my issue of concern is bigger than yours” argument to be quite juvenile, intellectually and rhetorically shallow, and more importantly disrespectful. Why can’t different people have different causes? Why is there this supposition that different, unrelated issues have to compete for attention? I’m sorry but immigrant poverty is not what I care about at the moment and especially after your outburst, I find myself caring about it even less.
Terri is obviously a lightweight.
Byron, in regards to your comment as to how AFs stand to benefit from AMs if they have social leverage, that’s false.
What will happen is what always happens; AMs will fight for them and when it’s all said and done, AFs will just leave.
I mean, honestly, do you not know when you’re being used? This is what I’ve been saying all along; AFs want you to fight for them but give you nothing in return.
It’s the epitome of selfishness.
Look at their track record, for Christ’s sake.
Kobukson,
Well, I never presented an argument; I simply put things in perspective. Sorry if I came across as rude or disrespectful, but if I seemed to trivialize IR, that’s because IR is trivial. If you stopped to notice, those Asian women that denigrate and dismiss Asian men are generally self-absorbed, one-dimensional characters for whom dating-choice-assertiveness is their most important achievement. You and others seem to want to create some kind of ideology out of reacting to past and potential future slights from these small minded people. That’s simply unhealthy – for you and the young Asian boys that you may influence! And it’s trivial.
You seem to have missed the point of my comments which, incidentally, were not intended to offend. Malcolm and Martin had such a powerful message because they called on people to be more than what they were told to believe they could be. Your IR “message” offers no such freedom, it’s about saving face and the only people that have the time, energy or inclination to fight this good fight are those who are financially secure but who should know better because they have a college degree. I’ll reiterate that the whole discussion betrays a repulsive self-absorption and self-indulgence on the part of privileged Asian men and women.
Unfortunately for Asian boys, you and I are all they have for role models. Empowerment through dating will never capture the imagination or inspire greatness in the next generation of Asian men in the way that Martin and Malcolm inspired greatness. It certainly hasn’t inspired greatness amongst the Asian women who claim empowerment through this means. Why emulate a failed model? The question is; what can we do to inspire courage, imagination and confidence in Asian boys? Revenge dating seems hopelessly inadequate as a means to this end, although I don’t discount romantic success a part of the larger picture of personal development.
Finally, I actually agree with you on some points: Asian men should date-out (but only because they can!) and as I said, I know that many Asian women like to denigrate Asian men and, yes, I’d like to see more Asian women being vocal in genuinely marginalizing these ignoramuses. But it doesn’t logically follow that dating out will bring empowerment. Those who have dated out almost exclusively – like me – know that it comes with problems and may, in fact, lead to more marginalization for the individuals involved. The more you date out, the more you will encounter ignoramuses that don’t want you to date “their” women and the more likely you will be to experience really ugly racism and even violence.
It’s not a game – only the blissfully privileged could present it as such. And yes, the IR angst is trivial.
It may seem trivial but confidence comes in various guises. I’ve seen first hand how this issues has destroyed the confidence of many which causes this type of reaction that you don’t enjoy.
Doesn’t every action have an equal and opposite reaction?
The problem is, you are trying to convince AMs to stop behaving like normal human beings.
IR is a significant issue. It doesn’t have to control your life, but it certainly has some psychological repercussions. These are exacerbated when those AFs who choose to outdate exclusively take their campaign public. There can be no excuse for doing a YouTube video about How Asian Guys Suck, and posting it to the world. That kind of behavior is not just abandonment, but outright betrayal.
However, there are Asian women who are fighting this kind of mindset as well as Asian men. You’re going to need their help to fix this. Stop fighting those who agree with you and keep fighting together, those who don’t.
You’re not understanding what I am saying, King.
AFs who air their dirty laundry are to be condemned. However, even the AFs who are involved with WM who don’t air dirty laundry are also the problem.
The sheer presence of this pairing is destructive because of the social environment sent forth.
But that’s not airing dirty laundry, that’s sabotage. Airing dirty laundry would be talking about their own personal bad relationships with Asian guys in a public setting. But broadcasting videos about the reasons why nobody in their right mind would date an Asian guy is just mercenary.
It would be difficult to say that EVERY Asian female who is paired with a non-Asian male is anathema. Some degree of racial crossover is going to occur between every ethnicity. But there has obviously been a large spike, within the last 40 years, of AF/WM pairings that goes far beyond the norm.
The fact that these incidents are also accompanied by an anti-Asian male bias and racist stereotyping is alarming to me. This looks like a new variation of systematic racism in which a new social wedge is being intentionally driven between the genders of a targeted ethnic minority. What is frightening is that it may actually work.
And you’re disagreeing with what?
It only really works on Asians because as my parents always told me; Asians are psychologically weak and immoral. They’re extremely selfish, greedy, and insecure. This will cause them to be a bigger enemy to you than whites. Asians are far more likely to take advantage of you.
URB4N
“It only really works on Asians because as my parents always told me; Asians are psychologically weak and immoral. They’re extremely selfish, greedy, and insecure. This will cause them to be a bigger enemy to you than whites. Asians are far more likely to take advantage of you.”
And you want to empower these people!!! But seriously, this is hardly an empowering message and you’ve just given ammunition to anti-Asian racists. Good one.
All of mankind is greedy and immoral, and selfish, and psychologically weak… not your tribe only, urb4N.
But also we are sometimes kind, and inexplicably self-sacrifial, and brave, and sometimes we are even beautiful… We have a dark side, yes, but we aspire to be more than our collective darkness.
We don’t applaud people for giving in to human nature. We value those who exceed our baser instincts. We value those who resist the instinct to run when they are faced with danger, but stay to defend a fallen comrade. We praise those who are loyal rather than those practical in their alliances. We admire those who defend the weak rather than those who ingratiate themselves to the powerful. We humans aspire to be better than our instincts.
Asians are no worse than the rest of us in that quest.
The glass is half full.
To dovetail on what Terri said earlier, social class plays a role. (Disclaimer: I am going off on a wide tangent from Terri’s original point.)
Asian immigrants who come from poverty, who have had every privilege stripped from them by an authoritarian government, who have been raised in a dog-eat-dog world tend to be overly defensive of what they have and what they think they deserve once they’re here in the U.S. Those attitudes may be interpreted by you and many others as “extremely selfish, greedy, and insecure” (See supra: Urban)
Asian immigrants and Asian Americans who are the children of wealth do not generally harbor the “we are at war” outlook on life. Sure, they come with other faults, spoiled, sheltered, sense of entitlement, what-not, but they’re not out to try to “take advantage of you,” probably because the attitude they have is “I could crush you.” That’s a different mindset there. On top of that, there’s also a difference in mindsets between old money and new money.
And as King pointed out, this isn’t exclusive to Asians. Not at all. So to say Asians are this way, ergo I am hostile toward Asians and do not trust them is a ludicrous contention to make.
And I’ll be the first to admit that I’ve lost sight of what exactly we’re all arguing and bantering over…
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Hey jaehwan,
What a thought-provoking discussion you’ve got here! I realize I’m coming to it kinda late; it’s only now come to my attention through google.
At first, I was a little confused by the underlying tone. But after I read your earlier posts on PUAs and the whole “community,” your personal reactions started to make a lot more sense. I also noticed that you’ve linked to my other site, which has a lot less content. You’ll see the “re-invented me” (or post-2008, post-PUA me) at my regular site: http://www.asianrake.com
I totally agree with your assessment of the downsides of the PUA movement for Asian-American males (incidentally, I’m actually Chinese-Canadian). Most PUA companies display very little (or no) respect for women, do not support or express themselves with honesty and integrity, and very few (if any) PUA companies are interested in or teach anything about sustainable, fulfilling long-term relationships–often because the coaches have never had any lasting success in this area themselves–and are all about the short-term “pick-up” and just getting more sex and ego gratification.
Back in 2005, when I started learning how to get better with women, I was trying to fill a void in my own life and looked to women and the accompanying ego validation to meet that need. And until a couple of years ago, I was completely guilty of all of those negatives you pointed out and more. Until recently, I was still having to deal with some of the guilt and heartbreak that come with my immature choices and regrettable errors of judgment. I just try my best to learn from my mistakes and help others avoid them. These are all good reasons why I’ve since begun to distance myself from the whole PUA community.
I also agree with your assessment of the positives–that a lot of the good stuff in PUA teachings are drawn from broader success or life coaching, such as by Tony Robbins and others. I completely concur with your conclusion that this is a lot about self-mastery. I personally see my contributions along the lines of success coaching, with a specialty in romance and dating relationships. I start with what I know really well–succeeding with women and dating–and then branch out from there, though ultimately, all the major areas of life are interconnected, and excelling in one will help you excel in others. You can find my more recent statements of my views and teachings on this at my regular site, Asianrake.com
Though I haven’t had the time to follow all the many branches and intricacies of argument in the comments and in the blogs of your interlocutors, I would like to find the time to catch up on this in the near future.
Just as way of clarification and response to some of your commentators:
I have been in a stimulating, fulfilling, and extremely rewarding exclusive relationship with a woman of mixed racial and cultural heritage for almost a couple of years already, and while Jamie Yeo was a friendly person, I had no desire and felt no need to “hit on” her. I especially would never think to do so just to “represent” my bitter Asian “brothers.”
I’ll give you a charitable reading, jaehwon, and assume that you were joking around in that last paragraph of yours, LOL. Seriously, though, the underlying tone of frustration and animosity in some of the AA literature on IR disparities often indirectly and unintentionally demonstrate some of the reasons why Asian men have such a hard time.
I think it’s also time to stop whining and bitching that Asian women in increasing numbers have been ditching their Asian brethren and dating white guys. A guy can’t guilt or argue or reason a girl into being attracted to him. In that sense, attraction really isn’t a choice. The best thing he can do is to become MORE ATTRACTIVE than her other options.
I would love to continue this discussion and to hear your feedback, as these are all issues I think and care deeply about. You can reach me directly any time at asianrake “at” asianrake.com I do my best to answer all emails personally.
Cheers, David.
David,
It’s very nice meeting you!
I enjoyed this discussion about IR in Singapore, so thanks for doing the broadcast. Thanks also for sharing your experiences and for linking your new site. I’m happy to hear that we agree on many of the problematic issues within most PUA circles, and I’m eager to hear more of what you have to say. (Don’t know if I linked this anywhere, but I wrote my final word on PUA a while back right here.) I briefly read through the first page of your new site, and it looks like you have some interesting stuff there (and man…good work through the P90X!!! I guess it really works.
). I’m interested in learning how and why you began to distance yourself from the community, and I’m wondering if it’s similar to the flaws I eventually saw with my own interactions with the community. I think readers here might be interested if there were any positives that came from your experiences too. Each man will eventually find a different path, and it’s good that we learn from each other.
Yes, I was joking and being unserious with that last paragraph of my post!!! Haha…it probably takes time to get used to my style! I’ve been making PUA jokes for years now…King, Larry, me, and a bunch of other people on this site have been jokin’ and joshin’ against the bad PUAs for years, and we like to make fun of the techniques.
When I have time, I’ll read through more of your blog to see how you got to where you are today. I too look forward to continuing the discussion.
JH
Hey Jaehwon,
Thanks for your kind words. I’m glad you find my site interesting and worth your while. Yes, P90X was a killer, and yes, it worked for me, but like any skilled activity, it requires hard work and discipline, especially when keeping to the nutritional plan, ha.
Thanks for sharing that articulate post of yours. Yes, we are in agreement on ALL the negative points you raised.
I did get a lot of benefits from my years in the PUA community. My eyes were opened to theories of male-female attraction and psychology. I learned techniques and strategies (of varied effectiveness) that attempted to apply these theories to real-life interactions. I also met some really cool and good friends along the way, both men and women. And sure, I also got lots and lots of pleasure and short-term gratification. But no, it didn’t it lead directly to lasting or sustainable happiness.
In the end, I found that the PUA phase should really be just that–a phase. Many men need to go through a stage in their lives of “discovering” themselves, gaining independence, and sowing their wild oats. Basically, maturing.
Contrary to popular opinion, for most men, learning the methods of PUA is not about getting sex. If that were the case, they’d be better off earning more money so that they could just get pay-for-play regularly. But most PUAs consider it contemptible to resort to paying. So it’s not about sex. It’s really about getting a girl to like them. In fact, after all the immense lead up to sex, most beginner, and even intermediate PUAs, find the actual act itself anticlimactic (pun intended). Occasionally, you do find the guy who does it out of some sex addiction, but that’s surprisingly rare.
In reality, it’s mainly about ego validation. These guys want to feel good about themselves as men. And most guys need to get positive reactions from girls to feel good about themselves and to develop self-confidence. I think this is just a normal part of maturation.
The problem comes when PUAs get addicted to the validation and the little power trips that come from being able to get women to like them.
I stayed in the community several months longer than I needed to and got sucked into that ego-validation addiction.
A healthier way of approaching the whole issue is to see that the specific set of mindsets, attitudes, skills, and strategies related to “getting better with women” is a smaller subset of “the social arts” or just plain ol’ “people skills,” which are in turn a subset of “life success.” Then one can place the social arts in their proper context.
I tackled these issues in a recent whimsical post on The Karate Kid here: 3 Lesson from The Karate Kid
Thanks for sharing your thoughtful views on this topic! I’ve learned a lot from just reading around on here. There’s still so much to read, though, haha.
Cheers, David
Hello David, and welcome.
I’m glad that you seem well able to view your PUA day with some sense of balance. However, since this is a discussion-based blog, I must take on a few points that you mentioned.
“In the end, I found that the PUA phase should really be just that–a phase. Many men need to go through a stage in their lives of “discovering” themselves, gaining independence, and sowing their wild oats. Basically, maturing.
I can certainly go along with 1) discovering/defining yourself, and 2) becoming independent, but 3) “sowing your wild oats” is not really a hard and fast requirement for becoming a man. The other two are. I’m not trying to say that you can’t do it, but I can say that when you do, it does come at a price.
Many guys are working on the theory that evolution has given them this freak streak, that they have to “work out of their system” by sleeping around with as many women as possible in their early 20s. Then, as they mature, they’ll run out of freak juice and just settle down with one woman, raise a family, and lead an idyllic life. They are often surprised when they find themselves unhappy in serial booty-call relationships, and yet unable to find contentment and satisfaction with a single life partner. The problem with sowing your wild oats is that they sometimes grow up into a harvest that you may not enjoy eating.
“Contrary to popular opinion, for most men, learning the methods of PUA is not about getting sex. If that were the case, they’d be better off earning more money so that they could just get pay-for-play regularly. But most PUAs consider it contemptible to resort to paying. So it’s not about sex.”
That is circular reasoning.
1) PUA can’t be about sex because if it were then PUA guys would just pay prostitutes.
2) Except that PUAs consider paying for sex with prostitutes to be contemptible.
3.) So it’s not about sex.
So when a PUA is trying to “Sow his wild oats” it’s not about sex because he’s looking for free sex with a girl in a bar instead of paid sex with a whore? Huh???
“In reality, it’s mainly about ego validation. These guys want to feel good about themselves as men. And most guys need to get positive reactions from girls to feel good about themselves and to develop self-confidence. I think this is just a normal part of maturation.”
If this is the case, then why does serial sex have to be involved at all? If you just want to get positive feedback from girls, and the sex is anti-climactic, then why even engage in it? There are a lot of ways to be validated besides that.
Part of the reason that the sex is anti climactic may be because it’s not based on any lasting relationship. In reality, those nifty “pizza man porno” sex scenarios don’t work out so well. It turns out that sex is a LOT better with someone who you actually care about.
Besides, ego validation, for it’s own sake, can be a dangerous thing. If you’re not careful, your whole life can become one big masturbation. You just lay back and pleasure your own ego to this one-dimensional, airbrushed, female facade, that you’ve created. Your whole understanding and valuation of women becomes reliant on how she validates you, how she strokes your self-confidence, how she brings YOU pleasure.
But the kicker is that, in so doing, you become this lazy, flaccid, self-absorbed, guy who has no idea how to really please a woman, because the emphasis, has for so long, been on you taking.
Hey King,
Glad to meet you on here!
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Actually, I think we mostly agree here. I see I was not as clear as I should have been when I dashed off that earlier response. Let me give it another stab.
King said:So when a PUA is trying to “Sow his wild oats” it’s not about sex because he’s looking for free sex with a girl in a bar instead of paid sex with a whore? Huh???
My point was that most (but not all) PUAs put in a lot of time and effort to get good with women because he wants to get validation from the girl at the bar, and not sex, though most PUAs don’t realize this at the time.
The argument is like this:
1. If PUAs just wanted sex, they would make use of the faster easier methods of obtaining it. (if p, then q)
2. PUAs do not avail themselves of the faster, easier methods of obtaining sex. (not q)
Hence,
3. PUAs do not just want sex. (not p)
King said:If this is the case, then why does serial sex have to be involved at all? If you just want to get positive feedback from girls, and the sex is anti-climactic, then why even engage in it? There are a lot of ways to be validated besides that.
Okay, so now it sounds like I have to explain to you the mindset of fucked up immature guys (as I once was; and probably still am) LOL. It’s actually a good thing that you don’t understand what’s going on in the mind of a PUA. That shows that you are probably a healthy, balanced individual
Most beginning PUAs have very little self-confidence. So a guy generally doesn’t believe in his heart of hearts that the girl really likes him no matter how many times or how hard she tries to tell him or show him (pre-sex). For many of these PUAs, it’s only when the girl sleeps with him and goes through the entire act that he finally accepts that hey, she really *does* like me! Yes, PUAs are that insecure.
In addition to that, to protect their egos, PUAs treat male-female interactions as a kind of game (hence, “The Game”), so that when the girl turns him down, it’s no big deal; “it’s just a game.” And they keep “score” to show their buddies and other PUAs so that they can compete with each other (more ego validation). And in the PUA community, you can’t “count” a “score” unless the interaction went “all the way” ; the only solid proof is if she went “all the way” with him. And hence, we have the tradition of writing of long, detailed Lay Reports as a way of demonstrating a guy’s level of “game.” And of course, this whole process if riddled with unhealthy externally-driven ego validation. Bad all around.
Now I know what you’re probably going to say. “There are lots of ways to be validated besides that!” And I totally agree with you.
Maybe you missed the point of my first comment on here, which was that I’m trying to move past PUA and think many of their teachings are potentially harmful in the long-run.
I agree that this whole process is a horrible way to build a guy’s self-confidence since he will always be dependent on other people’s reactions for him to feel good about himself and validated. Being externally referenced or validated is a self-defeating way to live.
In my second comment (which you read), I was trying to describe what the hell goes in the screwed-up mind of a PUA. It was descriptive, not normative.
I know we agree because I completely concur with your statement: Besides, ego validation, for it’s own sake, can be a dangerous thing. I totally agree. There are far healthier and more sustainable ways for a man to build his self-confidence than to go through the typical PUA process.
These more effective ways are things that my friends, former clients, and I have been working on, testing, and developing for a while now, building on some of the latest and best research in psychology, philosophy, and neuroscience.
Cheers!
–David
Hi David. Thank you for the very open and honest assessment, as one who has actually been through the system, as it where. I think that we do agree for the most part.
It just seems amazing to me that these guys are attempting to “get good with women” but are simultaneously:
1) making a pact to shag as many target females as possible – for pure ego building.
2) keeping actual score every time they bag some witless, female, chew toy.
3) are making detailed sexual reports to their male buddies and grading them.
A more caustic, creepy, emetic, scenario can hardly be imagined from a woman’s point of view. THIS is exactly the kind of thing that women’s dating nightmares are made of! Talk about missing the boat. NOBODY who follows that behavior pattern is “getting good with women,” no matter what they believe.
Real confidence comes from what you think about your own person. If you can’t respect yourself, then no amount of praise or pandering from others will have the slightest effect on you. You can sleep with 100 women a night and it won’t matter.
Hey King,
I get the feeling that you take the mere existence of PUAs as some kind of personal affront or moral offense…
You said: “Real confidence comes from what you think about your own person. If you can’t respect yourself, then no amount of praise or pandering from others will have the slightest effect. You can sleep with 100 women a night and it won’t matter.”
Hear, hear. Preach it, brutha! I couldn’t agree with you more.
Naw, when I fist encountered the PUA movement, in it’s present form, I was willing to give it a fair chance. In fact, I thought (and still think) that most of the goals that PUA promises are actually great things! Building confidence and getting comfortable and natural with women are really essential things to teach young men—especially if they are having trouble in that field. I also think that it’s quite possible to teach those skills, and a LOT of people could really be helped by it.
I just am disappointed that PUAs don’t seem to deliver on the majority of their claims, or else they broker some faustian bargain with their pupils in which they give a little and take a lot.
Your description above, of PUA clientele:
“I have to explain to you the mindset of fucked up immature guys”
Now, when someone takes a guy who is at that disadvantage, and then extracts large amounts of money from him, while all along making promises that they can’t deliver on, it makes me mad. I admit it. It’s not fair to the guys who are signing up.
But it’s also not fair to the women who will have to deal with these guys for the rest of their lives. Yes, they teach you not to be so shy, they teach you to be more assertive, to have more self confidence. But they build that confidence on complete assholery! And while teaching assertiveness, they also teach disrespect for, and objectification of women. This is then called “Being an Alpha.”
It’s like selling a course on how to make friends with Black people that includes:
1) Communicating with Blacks: (Learning to speak jive)
2) Keep a list of your Black friends (weekly reports on their habits to the group)
3) Ways to be accepted by Black people. (How they think)
And when your finished the course saying, you’re now “Better with Black people.” Now it may be true, that by simply focusing on the problem, and by associating with more Blacks, that you feel more comfortable with them. But by the very methods that you used in the process, you will have picked up some very bad ideas about how to relate to Blacks. Do you see what I mean? I think that’s essentially what PUA does, but much worse.
These more effective ways are things that my friends, former clients, and I have been working on, testing, and developing for a while now, building on some of the latest and best research in psychology, philosophy, and neuroscience.
Your final statement here is very interesting and encouraging. I’m really glad that someone is looking for good alternatives. I wish you the best of luck in taking this up to the next level.
Hey David,
I finally had a chance to look at your site. I’m really happy you re-evaluated the PUA lifestyle.
King and I did lots of research together into the ABCs of Attraction back in the day. We approached it with an open mind, communicating with the leaders through podcasts, forums, etc. We truly did approach it with an open mind–after all, we reasoned, how can it be a bad thing to learn to interact with women? Once we pulled back all the layers, we were both dismayed to learn how the proponents treated women AND treated their fellow men. I was particularly floored because here were a group of guys saying they wanted to create a “Better Asian Man,” and yet they couldn’t even practice good ethics among their friends and students! I mean, really, they can lie to me and King and to the women they’re cheating, but lying to the other “students” who follow them?
Which is maybe why I’m somewhat ambivalent about the whole success teaching thing.
Actually, since you still do the success teaching, I do have a question. BAM mentioned several times that GQ is just a White version of Better Asian Man. After a few years of research, I disagree–GQ doesn’t teach men to neg, amog, etc. GQ, I think, is much more straight up.
So here’s my question (and I think I have my own opinions but I’m curious about yours): What is the difference between what you do now and GQ? What about the difference between what you do now and success coaching like that of, say, Tony Robbins? Might you someday move into Tony Robbins’s area?
Haha…oops, King, we cross posted.
And about the above–I don’t condone them lying to you, me, or the women. I was just shocked how deep the lying went, even to those poor souls who paid them.
Hey King and Jaehwan,
Thanks, guys, for your honesty and openness here.
Jaehwan said: King and I did lots of research together into the ABCs of Attraction back in the day… I was particularly floored because here were a group of guys saying they wanted to create a “Better Asian Man,” and yet they couldn’t even practice good ethics among their friends and students! I mean, really, they can lie to me and King and to the women they’re cheating, but lying to the other “students” who follow them?
Wow, this sounds horrible. I don’t know JT or his boys (I met William and JT once, on separate occasions, 2-3 years ago) all that well, so I’m going to stay out of this one. But you’re not alone in having had bad experiences with PUA communities. There are many of us out there.
Jaehwan said: What is the difference between what you do now and GQ? What about the difference between what you do now and success coaching like that of, say, Tony Robbins? Might you someday move into Tony Robbins’s area?
Hmm, I don’t think anyone is confusing me with Tony Robbins or GQ quite yet, haha. I’m a big fan of both, though, especially the UK edition of GQ.
I attempt to address this and similar questions in my FAQ page, especially this section below. I’ll paste it here. You can read the snippet here, or see the whole thing by clicking on the FAQ link.
Thanks again for your interest and openness to these issues!
–David
What is it that you do?
I help men find happiness. I do this by…
1. Assisting them to understand themselves. To be attractive to others, a man has to know who he is and be confident in putting forward his best, most authentic self. He has to be open to meeting and connecting with new people, rather than being defensive, needy, or arrogant.
2. Coaching them in learning new social skills. We weren’t all born with the ability to captive others through conversation. I know I certainly wasn’t. But when you can feel confident in your ability to walk up to strangers and have them like you, it changes your whole life for the better. I used to be very shy and reclusive until I discovered how to connect with people, make new friends, and engage in friendly banter with women.
3. Helping them become leaders of their own lives. A lot of men walk around looking for something else to fulfill them–a woman, or the next video game or movie, or whatever else they can latch onto. They don’t take charge of their own lives, go after what they want, and live the life they dream about. Why do men get needy or desperate with women? Because they feel that the woman gives meaning to his life, that she completes his life, and that without her, his life is meaningless.
But a man should be happy and fulfilled with his own life first. While healthy, loving relationships are a part of that, they shouldn’t be the only thing. For example, if a woman is treating a man badly–and I’ve been in a few relationships where I let myself get stepped on, for sure–a man needs to respect himself enough to say ‘enough is enough’ and walk away, just like he should be able to do that with a friend who steps on him or a boss who mistreats him. But if that woman becomes the center of his life, and if he feels like he can’t meet and connect with someone who will love him for who he really is, then he might stay in that relationship for too long. So he has to take charge of his own life and work on becoming content with himself and becoming his ideal self.
When you were a dating coach, what did you do to teach men how to meet women?
As a dating coach, some of my main aims were to…
1. Teach men how to flirt in a fun way without being rude or cheesy. Flirting is a natural form of communication, but most men don’t learn this skill because they are afraid of women or don’t have the opportunity to practice it. So I took them through an intensive program where they gained about a year’s worth of new social experiences in a single weekend. For long-term Platinum Program clients, this effect was magnified exponentially. I pushed them to break through their own, self-imposed boundaries of what they’re allowed to express. And most of them find that a friendly smile and a genuine expression of how they feel is all they need.
2. Coach men in how to connect with other people. Most men want to have real relationships. There are a few scoundrels out there who just want to seduce women and leave them, but those guys are missing the whole point. To look into a woman’s eyes without fear, and to truly connect with her, is one of the most magical experiences in the world.
3. Help them make new friendships. Intimacy isn’t confined to male-female relationships. I have a few very close male friends who feel like brothers to me, who I know would support me in good times and bad.
http://www.thenutgraph.com/will-quah-choosing-to-stay/
^Asian men dating out and marrying out may not be as rare as we think… but the main difference is that these pairings are somehow less visible and less acceptable. White men marrying local women is high profile, while local Asian men marrying foreign women is low key.
A little piece of the puzzle that I’ve noticed recently is that growing up Chinese, it has always been the assumption that only a Chinese woman would be a suitable mate for me. It’s almost like an unspoken assumption that everybody has and that everybody reinforces occasionally whenever the possibility of deviation from the norm arises.
Ergo this explains a lot how female family, friends and acquiantances can coo over the cute hapa babies that white husbands can give, while looking at me askew if I even indicate an interest in dating out my own race.
The men I talk to do no better. Apart from the inferiority complex it is also ingrained in fellow Cantonese to undermine you psychologically in order to bring you down to their own level.
Quite frankly, shit like this can be de-moralising. You feel that you’re all alone and that nobody will help in your best interests and everybody is out to get you. You start to suss out that people are asking you to do things and believe things so that it benefits them, not necessarily you. Maybe at your expense. Maybe that’s what would finally push you into the whole PUA scene.
Then if you have any amount of brains and integrity as a man, and finally your delusions, suspense of disbelief and credulity finally wears thin, you finally realise that “Pick Up” is more fucked up than even its harshest critics say.
This is because you can’t just see it. You have to be there as well.
Lol!
Thanks, Ex-PUA! I agree with you. And yes, the brains and integrity are usually what causes good men to eventually get away from PUA.
Apart from the inferiority complex it is also ingrained in fellow Cantonese to undermine you psychologically in order to bring you down to their own level.
Haha! Yes, why is this? No wonder we Chinese can’t get a team to the World Cup. Each teammate on the China team is probably telling the other teammates how much they suck.
Well that was a generalization. o_O
But sadly from my experience they constitute a large proportion and the only way to deal with them is to either give them space or be a bigger asshole.
I have asked Cantonese friends, family and acquaintances about this also and while they acknowledge that psychological sabotage is a common game, nobody can tell me why it happens.
But if I were to make a guess, it would be this:
Could be the fact that large numbers of overseas Chinese in fact live in ghettoes and enclaves, where opportunities are never as plentiful as we want them to be, and where most will never realize their ambitions due to their circumstances, and because most will have to come to terms with the reality of the severe limitations they face.
Also being targeted for all sorts of oppression and discrimination, such as extortion and violence, could induce feelings of inferiority in an individual that can only be placated by lashing out at people weaker than you.
Also, in such socio-economic circumstances, Chinese who become successful often do so at the severe expense of their own kind, so ambition and success in others is seen as a threat and predatory in nature, and it builds resentment. With regards to dating, if you defy or disbelieve their inferiority complexes that they think should also apply to you, it could be seen as you looking down on whatever everybody else is having, as if it’s not good enough for you. Maybe you are also disrupting a pecking order and they instinctively feel threatened by an up-and-comer.
These are just guesses. I can’t remotely understand the psychology. +_+’
But is this group that wants you to be brought down to their “level” or engage in psychologoical sabotage ones who are assimilated or are still cowering in their enclaves?
Why would you ever want to be friends or associate with those who want to see you fail? And furthermore, why the hell should anyone listen to them or give a rat’s ass what they think about you dating out?
I was just thinking how a lot of these PUA traits seem to describe my group of guys and I back in high school. Heck, I think most young guys go through this: bragging, exaggerating or just plain lying about sexual escapades; grading other girls on a point scale judging by their breast size, butt size, legs, etc.; coming up with strategies on how to bang this or that hot girl; being mistrustful of girls but at the same time obsessing over their attention. And of course you’re so focused on your own insecurities and problems that you never could fully care about how the other might think. Not to mention all the gay jokes, dick jokes, and doing everything not to appear weak and “beta”.
And then we grew up, went to college, got jobs, and met women of talent and intelligence who really tested out mettle. And we find experiences with them to be fulfilling, full of discovery not just about them but about ourselves and who we really are as human beings. PUA is just, and excuse me for oversimplifying, plain immature. Most guys are actually beyond that level.
This is purely my own assumptions, but it seems to me a lot of these PUA guys just never grew out of that high school (or for some, college) stage mentality. Or maybe they never experienced it because they were social outcasts, too shy, too sheltered, etc. and now they’re trying to make up for lost time. For the latter, I do have sympathy for because they didn’t have the chances to interact with girls, and now the world expects them to be men when they never really had a chance to be boys. There must be better ways to help them because I think the PUA culture simply prey on their insecurities and make things actually worse.
Leon I guarantee you that the PUA mindset is a lot more fucked up than you think it is. There is a whole abnormal psychology to it that cannot just be explained by a pre-adult mindset. Like I said, you can’t just hear or see about it, you actually have to be there. We both agree that the PUA industry is exploitative and that there are better ways, but right now, nobody is doing anything, and the PUA churn is louder.
“Why would you ever want to be friends or associate with those who want to see you fail? And furthermore, why the hell should anyone listen to them or give a rat’s ass what they think about you dating out?”
Mojo, you don’t choose it, you are born into it, just like in a ghetto. If you’ve never been outside the ghetto or associated with more than ghetto peoples then its the only thing you’ll ever know. But yes, once you realize they’re full of shit, you’ll be re-evaluating everything that comes from them.
“But is this group that wants you to be brought down to their “level” or engage in psychologoical sabotage ones who are assimilated or are still cowering in their enclaves?”
These are the guys still in their enclaves, and you will know them by their limited language abilities. But in my opinion the assimilated ones can be frightfully dickless as well.
Bear in mind I’m talking about the fuckups here and not trying to categorize people as a whole. There are lots of good folks. I’m just illuminating a darker side of a psychology that seems to afflict large numbers of my people.
Well actually now that I have rejected their creed I am no longer one of them.
:*(
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Like I said, you can’t just hear or see about it, you actually have to be there. We both agree that the PUA industry is exploitative and that there are better ways, but right now, nobody is doing anything, and the PUA churn is louder.
Thanks, Ex-Pua! We’re actually going to do a podcast in the next couple weeks or so, and we may touch on this. I think you’re right: the PUA churn is definitely louder, although I suspect in part it’s because PUA is a simpler message that’s easier to articulate. It’s like: “If you do A, you’ll achieve result B.” People like the forcefulness of that message, even if it doesn’t always work the way they say it does.
“Well actually now that I have rejected their creed I am no longer one of them.”
Ex-PUA – I can’t see how that’s a bad thing!