Asian Women and the Invisible Chain

Zhang Ziyi--does her personal racial preference really matter?

If you’re an Asian male, look at the picture above, along with the caption.  Think about your very first impression.  What goes through your mind?  Do you feel any kind of change in your thinking or emotion?  Now read further.

This post comes off of the Jamie Yeo thread, where in the midst of the IR debate, kobukson criticizes some Asian men by writing:

Another mistake: making Asian women the focal point of the IR discussion. Why do they do this? Why do they do that? Why do so many Asian girls hook up with dorky white guys? Blah Blah Blah. Screw it.

By making Asian women the focal point of the IR debate, you are just giving them more power and leverage. You might as well be a one-legged man at a butt-kicking contest.

Kobukson raises a good point, and urb4n and MaSirJones concur (and I thought it would be cool to see how well a one legged man would fare in a butt kicking contest).  If Asian men could somehow write-off Asian women, a number of positive things would happen.  First, we’d take power away from the Kingstonians and anti-Asian-male media racism.  Second, we wouldn’t feel as dumb for beating our heads against a wall that doesn’t seem to budge.  Third, there would be more Asian men dating White women, and as a result, we would probably would get more respect from Asian women.  (Although we’d also be dating or married to Asian women in even lower numbers than we are today.)

HOWEVER…

While it’s at least a decent idea in theory, I think it becomes a bit more complex in real life. Namely–I just don’t think Asian men can do it. Some of you can, but most of you can’t.  Those “some of you” who can already know you can, and no amount of prodding is going to change things because you already do what you do.  For the rest of us, the situation is hopeless.  We’re stuck on Asian women.  There’s an invisible chain around our necks, and nothing we do–nothing you do–will change that.  Sorry.  Asking an Asian man to give up Asian women is like asking a gay man to give up men.

Look at Zhang Ziyi in that picture above.  I think it’s clear that judging from her interviews and everything else she’s done (Snow Flower with Hugh Jackman?), she’s made the Kingstonian switch.  She’s going to produce Orientalist movies and rob our people blind until all Asian men end up in ye poorhouse subservient to anyone who will be our masters.  She used to be all about China and representing China, now it’s all about representing the (White) Man’s interest.  HOWEVER…I’ll bet that most Asian men don’t care.  Why?  Because she’s HOT. It’s the same reason why you see the Asian Rake chatting with Jamie Yeo in that video even though she’s moved “beyond” his race (although predictably she headed to Europe rather than Africa, the Middle East, or anywhere else where the men ain’t White).  Asian men have got the addiction.  Maybe this addiction was inculcated in us when we were young, and maybe the media could help young Asian boys move on, but for most of us who are past puberty, we’re what we are.  The addiction doesn’t go away until you are married or old or both.

And it’s not just physical either.  I don’t want to get too much into it now, but there’s a mental understanding too.  Sure, Asian women don’t know what Asian men go through, but it’s not just about them being like men.  It’s about how the two interact.

There are only three main kinds of Asian men who date interracially.  Let me tell you about three different real-life guys I know and how they’ve reacted to the IR disparity question.

1. The first guy is an Asian American guy.  We’ll call him Dan.  Dan is good looking (“for an Asian guy,” as they like to say), he went to a good school, is very smart, etc. etc.  He’s always got a date, and more often than not, he’s dating good looking White women–the East Village artistic type with the piercings, the alternative style, etc.  He himself is an artist and has dated both Asian and White women, but White women are usually more open to dating him, maybe in part because he’s a freelancer who is off the beaten Wall Street or tech path.

I raised the IR issue with him and talked about some of the discussions on this blog.  I told him about the idea some people proposed on bigWOWO that Asian women don’t have our backs, and that Asian men turn to White women instead.  He said, “Okay…so these people think that Asian women don’t have our backs.  What…do they think White women would protect our backs any better?

He raises a good point.  On the Jamie Yeo thread, someone asked why Asian women aren’t blogging about Asian male issues more.  Well let’s ask the other question–if White women are the answer, why aren’t White women blogging about Asian male issues?

Keep in mind this is coming from a guy who predominantly dates White women. He’s open to dating Asian women, but for whatever reason, they’re not as much into him.  But he realizes at the same time that there is are areas of culture that White women–as a group, that is–are not going to understand.  I don’t know what Dan’s preferences are, or even if he has them, but I think he’s like Mojo–he’s okay either way, and he’d love to date Asian women, but they just aren’t there.

2. I know an Asian American guy whom we’ll call Dave who prefers White women physically and is attracted to White women but will only date Asian women seriously.  He thinks it would just be an easier life.  But he does date both White women and Asian women for now.  He too is bothered by the IR disparity.  Even though Asian isn’t his primary interest, he still dates Asian and gets snubbed for racial reasons.

3. I knew a Japanese guy in New York a long time ago.  We’ll call him Kenji.  Kenji was a Japanese national, and he worked with other Japanese nationals.  He worked at a small company staffed with about three or four drop-dead gorgeous young stylish Japanese women, and he was practically the only guy there! I didn’t know how he did it.  I was impressed by his restraint. He became a kind of brother to the women in his office.  I was amazed at how cool and calm he was in their presence.  So one day I took him out for drinks, and after we put back a few, I asked him straight out how it felt to go to work every day surrounded by women who looked like Japanese supermodels.

He said, “I  don’t look at them.”

“Huh?”

“They’re okay.”

“Huh?”

“I prefer White women.”

He then went on to talk about Esther Pan’s Newsweek article and how he found it to be untrue but developing.  He actually had had a few White girlfriends in the city, despite working late hours.  As we talked, there were a few attractive Asian women who walked by, some of them with the dorky White guys that some of you have noticed.  Kenji didn’t bat an eye.  He’d only look up for White women.  I talked to him about the IR disparity, and he said it was a good thing and that he preferred IR himself.

You see, here’s the issue: What urbs, kobukson, and MaSir are proposing is that people be like Kenji–not caring what Asian women do, going after White women, and “leaving the reservation,” as urbs likes to say.  If you’re already like Kenji, then it’s not a problem–you can continue living as you do because the IR disparity doesn’t bother you to begin with.  You’re empowered because you don’t give a shit about what Asian women do.  Problem is that most Asian guys can’t do it.  In fact, I would challenge every Asian male reader of this blog to seriously think about who you are in relation to Asian women.  Do you like Asian women?  Do you find them very attractive?  If so, the absolute BEST you can do on the interracial scale is to become like Dan.  You can never rid yourself of that attraction that Asian men have for Asian women, or even the mental commonality that guys like Dan see.

So what’s my solution? I think the best solution is just to accept it.  Accept it as part of what you are.  And if you’re going to fail, FAIL HARD.  Keep on engaging with Asian women, keep on trying to build up your own talents, keep on trying to be the best person possible because no one else will do it for you.  To paraphrase King, stop thinking of dating as a war or a battle.  Think about it as either meeting someone hot (not serious) or trying to have a real relationship (serious).  Running or attacking Asian women isn’t going to stop the Kingstonian Holy War.  The only way to stop that is by creating an arts movement that presents something better.  In your personal life, don’t politicize yourself too much.  If there exists an invisible chain, just let the girls pull you and drop you.  Then get back up.  It’s best to go with what you really are.

Meanwhile, continue to build a life OUTSIDE of just trying to pick up women.  If you’ve got a good voice, sing.  If you’re great at making money, make money.  If you’re a writer, write.  Have a life outside of your social activities.

Bottom line is that Asian men have to learn to be themselves, and if abandoning Asian women is not you, then it’s just not you. It would be nice if more Asian women found Asian men attractive, but if that’s not the case, then that’s just not the case.  Dating should be in the here and now, and that’s how people need to think about it.

(pic from here)

274 thoughts on “Asian Women and the Invisible Chain

  1. Why the obsession with white female/Asian male relationships? How is it empowering for Asian men to drool after white women? Wouldn’t it just confirm that we’ve internalized white standards of beauty and racial self hate. There are other women besides whites and Asians, such as blacks and latinas.

  2. Dudes! Why do you see Asian women as “our women”? Why not buy some nice clothes and go out to meet women of any race? You should start by saying “Hi’ and then walk up to them and ask: “What time is it? My watch stop?”
    You guys should stop this race stuff! It’s making you miserable.

    I’m not a sicko or anything like that, but Asian women are beautiful! If it were the other way around, I’m sure you guys would be dating “our white women”. Now tell the truth!
    Asian beauty should be a complement to race. I would feel proud that so many men desire them if I were you.

  3. Simple.

    You will forever be in the box. If you’re content with that, that’s fine. For me, if everyone at the party hates me, I have enough pride to leave and attend a party that enjoys my company.

    I am only trying to convince as many people to leave the party and find a new one.

    One point I did want to address quickly is: It’s not that WFs will have our backs if AFs don’t, it’s that neither do. Therefore, dating a WF and hoping for support is the same as dating an AF.

    If there is nothing to gain in support, you can at least 1. help decrease the disparity which has two benefits (lessens the gender conflict and dramatically increases the self esteem of AMs in general) and 2. projecting an image that directly attacks what the WM established as unattractive.

  4. Siegfried, you’re not seeing the point of the article. it’s not about “our” women. It’s about you just being you and going after the type of person you’re into no matter how hard society makes it (under the general assumption that society today tells Asian women that it is more desireable to be with a white man than an Asian man), whether it be a white or Asian or black women. It’s basically Asian men should still go for asian women if they like them… Even if it’s really hard to date them amongst all the white men out there. Frankly I think Asian men need to start “lowering” themselves more to date black girls and Latinas as right now I think we’re a bunch of hypocrites.

  5. Also, regarding how AMs will look past if an “AF is hot,” means that the population is stupid. This conforms into my believe that there are almost no smart AAs.

    AAs are educated, not smart. Your EQ is beyond subpar and that makes it difficult for you to discern friend from foe. You attack me or guys like me who give it to you straight but cozy up to people who whisper sweet nothings into your ear.

    Again, up to you if you want to drink poisoned honey. Meg’s friend once asked if it looked like she gained weight. I said “Yes.” Meg spun around and spounted the stereotypical “You never tell a woman that! You lie!”

    I responded “Friends don’t lie to you.”

  6. Notice how the Asian women who do date, marry, and support Asian men are never mentioned. They are never seen as an option. Even when they post right here on this very blog site, they are completely invisible.

    They are all swallowed up in the horrible “AF” horde! (the sworn enemy)

    It is only by ignoring the fact that the majority of Asian women on planet earth still marry Asian men that the glorious “movement” can go on.

  7. Quick comment since am busy at work.

    Sigfried, I’ve refrained from jumping on you in other threads as others have done, but your comment “I would feel proud that so many men desire them if I were you” shows your lack of understanding. YOU are not suffering thru horrible media images about you. You are not under attack by the popular culture around you and marginalized. To feel this “pride” that you talk of means you don’t understand the emasculation of the AM by the predominantly white cultural establishment. your constant need to justify your yellow fever becomes tiresome.

    @ Cman,

    Why is it “lowering” to consider black women or Latinas as partners? I don’t see it as “lowering”. I find both to be attractive. But really, love doesn’t always come with an Asian face, black or a white face, etc…. It’s about your compatibility with a person. And that could be anyone.

  8. Mojo, I think that Cman meant the “lowering” comment sarcastically. I think you’re both on the same page.

  9. Interesting article Byron, and interesting points, though your perspective seems to be written heavily from “the Asian male interested in dating Asian females” slant (pun intended).

    Since you’re father, do you feel like that informs / deepens your perspective to a different degree than just a guy who’s looking for a mate?

    Since I’m teacher (and will be a father to a son in August), what occupies my mind the most is my future kids / the kids in our communities. I don’t want young Asian American boys to be tied down with same baggage that they’re inferior to white boys in the same way I don’t want young Asian American girls to feel inferior to white girls because society puts the gold standard of beauty on Barbie-type women (blonde hair, blue eyes, huge boobs, skinny, tall).

  10. I also think we need to let go of this ridiculous notion that “Asian women should have our backs.” Why the hell would I want a bunch of backstabbers to have my back?

    You see, here’s the issue: What urbs, kobukson, and MaSir are proposing is that people be like Kenji–not caring what Asian women do, going after White women, and “leaving the reservation,” as urbs likes to say.

    That is correct.

    I just don’t think Asian men can do it. Some of you can, but most of you can’t. Those “some of you” who can already know you can, and no amount of prodding is going to change things because you already do what you do. For the rest of us, the situation is hopeless. We’re stuck on Asian women. There’s an invisible chain around our necks, and nothing we do–nothing you do–will change that. Sorry. Asking an Asian man to give up Asian women is like asking a gay man to give up men.

    AMs are stuck on Asian women because society has programmed you into thinking you have no other choice. Also, internally, fear and cowardice holds you back. Many Asian guys are yellow-bellied cowards who are afraid to leave the familiarity and safety of the reservation. A big part of this Jaewhan, is not so much about Asian women or the IR disparity or what not but evolving into a New Asian Man who isn’t afraid of possibilities and is emancipated from all the bullshit, whether external or internal, that holds you back. Live free or Die.

    I don’t know about anyone else but for me “an invisible chain around my neck” = slavery.

  11. And none of this has anything to do with whether or not one finds Zhang Ziyi to be hot. Personally, in that particular photo, she looks like a uber mean bitch with a stone cold personality. I don’t find that “hot”.

    You just got done explaining how Zhang Ziyi completely sold-out and you’re using her as an example to get AMs to admit that they still find her hot and how AMs are hopelessly stuck on Asian women anyway??? Gee, what a great message to send to be sending out. That’s what I called an “own goal”. AMs are great at that…own goals. Tragic.

  12. @ Urban and Kobukson generally:

    I wanted to write that what you’ve said isn’t true, that Asian women do not in large numbers undermine the sociopolitical position of Asian men for their own advancement, that we do in fact see you as our men, our brothers, but I’ve witnessed enough to understand that your conclusions are well-substantiated. It’s tragic and inexcusable. With that said, you’re deepening the divide and giving the kind of women you criticize more justification for their choices (and “preferences”). You say you don’t care, you say good riddens. You shouldn’t. You should care. And if you don’t, if you’re not to any degree at all an activist, then why are you here? Why are you reading BigWowo? Why are you yourself bloggers of APA activist sites? It seems to me that simply by your presence here you’re somewhat activist, or at least there is a bit of that activisit spirit in you, in which case I go back to my original point, that you should care about this, that you shouldn’t simply write us all off and say you want nothing.

    Perhaps your unconditional love for your own community will be the beacon to guide the wayward back. At least it’s a start. It’s certainly no compromise of your pride or integrity to be the bigger person.

    The comments here sadden me. How will there ever be solidarity?

  13. There will be solidarity when at least one out of the following three occurs:

    1. Asian men ascend to the socioeconomic status as white males. Notice I said SOCIOeconomic and not just economic since there’s major difference between the two. It ain’t news that Asian men are economically on par with most white males in the US. What’s lacking is the social proof that Asian men hold just as much power and sex appeal to the masses. Once the competitive playing field levels out on a social level where we see this in movies, TV shows, music, etc, we might finally have what many Asian men have been yearning for in the US – equilibrium. Even Canada does a better job than this country when it comes to this.

    2. Asian men begin a mass exodus to dating other ethnicities. Asian men have always been hanging around for Asian women. Asian men have been extremely loyal protecting and praising many of them until this wretched IR dating imbalance started becoming more and more prevalent. Now the gloves are off.

    You’re probably asking, “How will this bring solidarity?” Just like the old saying goes, “You never appreciate what you have until its gone.” Then maybe, the Asian women who relentlessly dogged on Asian men will think twice before they open their fat mouths and jump onto the “white guys only” bandwagon.

    3. Asian women will stand up and fight the “powers that be” as opposed to succumbing to them. They will support Asian men just like how black and latino women support theirs. However, as much as I would like to see this happen, Asian women will not because many of them are just as big of cowards as the same Asian men they criticize about being. Why?

    Instead of standing up for their male counterparts, culture, heritage and ethnicity when someone shits on it, they prefer not to rock the boat and simply assimilate, suck up or sell out. Esther Ku and Michelle Malkin are primary examples. Then there are those who’ll say some bullshit like, “Just because I’m dating a white guy doesn’t mean I don’t support my culture.” That may be true, but what part of the culture are you supporting? The part where Asian women get all the limelight and could give a rats ass about the men? Doesn’t sound all that supportive nor cohesive to me. Perhaps this non-Asian bf of yours likes you because he has an infatuation with Asian culture. Yet most non-Asian guys who I’ve heard say this always seem to mention how easy it is to sleep with Asian women.

    Out of the three possibilities, Asian men have complete control over the first two and should exclusively focus on those until the IR dating balance and social media returns to equilibrium. I’m with Kobukson and Urb on this one.

  14. But it is possible to have solidarity with those Asian women who agree with you and have your back RIGHT NOW. That would make sense, since having a vagina does not make them any more culpable in the great IR disparity than you are, MaSir. Why not embrace those who embrace you? Why not get the back of the women who have your back. As for the rest… fine, forget about them!!!

    I have ALWAYS thought that Asian guys dating out is a great idea. Every other race out there is already doing it, and there’s nothing wrong with getting out there. Asian guys will probably be surprised that there are a lot of other ethnicities who find them to be quite dateable, but just had the idea that they were only interested in Asian girls. I truly hope that more Asian guys cross the color lines (And not just with Whites, you sellouts!) :-)

    BUT do this because you see value in the person you are dating and in the experience, NOT to make some obscure political point, or gain “leverage” for some future intraethnic/gender “negotiation” that is never really going to happen anyway!! No hapless girl deserves to get caught up in your IR equilibrium restoration campaign.

    I personally think that the IR imbalance will correct itself, but for other reasons, however, I won’t go into that here.

  15. Urbs

    If there is nothing to gain in support, you can at least 1. help decrease the disparity which has two benefits (lessens the gender conflict and dramatically increases the self esteem of AMs in general) and 2. projecting an image that directly attacks what the WM established as unattractive.

    Yes, but then you’re dating based on what other people think of you. It becomes about image rather than what you want. That’s kind of the point I was making. Rather than date based on what others want, go for what you want.

    Also, regarding how AMs will look past if an “AF is hot,” means that the population is stupid. This conforms into my believe that there are almost no smart AAs.

    Haha! That conforms with my belief too. I wasn’t trying to say we were smart with this post. Actually, I was agreeing: we Asian guys are a bunch of morons when there are women involved! But in all fairness, I think that’s just the way things are with most guys in the throes of attraction, regardless of race. We get STOOPID.

    Again, up to you if you want to drink poisoned honey. Meg’s friend once asked if it looked like she gained weight. I said “Yes.” Meg spun around and spounted the stereotypical “You never tell a woman that! You lie!”

    I responded “Friends don’t lie to you.”

    That’s why we like you, urbs!

    Kobukson,

    I don’t think most AM go for AF because society has programmed us to say it’s the only choice available to us. I think most AM go for AF because they truly find AF attractive.

    You just got done explaining how Zhang Ziyi completely sold-out and you’re using her as an example to get AMs to admit that they still find her hot and how AMs are hopelessly stuck on Asian women anyway??? Gee, what a great message to send to be sending out.

    This is one of those “deal with it” kind of observations. I don’t think it’s a good thing, but is it really a bad thing in all circumstances? Guys driven by desire do crazy things!

    More on this in my response to next response to g in my next comment below.

    MaSir,

    What King said: Can’t you have solidarity with the women who support you NOW?

  16. G,

    Interesting article Byron, and interesting points, though your perspective seems to be written heavily from “the Asian male interested in dating Asian females” slant (pun intended).

    Since you’re father, do you feel like that informs / deepens your perspective to a different degree than just a guy who’s looking for a mate?

    Yes! Actually someone called me on the phone today and told me that I was excluding gay Asian males with my first paragraph. So I probably excluded quite a few people with that first post.

    That’s an interesting question. I think my job as a father definitely informs my perspective, not just because of my concern for my kids, but also because kids change you. In terms of my kids, I want them to love themselves and not to be weighed down by stereotypes. My kids are too young to be worrying about that right now, so while I keep that idea in the back of my mind, it isn’t something that I think about often. At least not yet.

    However, there’s that other component I mentioned, namely that kids change you. This is probably the more interesting phenomenon of parenthood. Some people here are talking about standing up, showing the Man, demonstrating that we’re not stuck to Asian women, etc. What fatherhood has taught me is that there are certain things you don’t control, and you learn to live with it. When you have a small baby who cries, she’ll cry when she wants to. When she wants to eat or drink, you work by her schedule, not the other way around. When he or she poops, you drop what you’re doing and change the diaper. Babies call 100% of the shots.

    It gets even more complex when their personalities develop. I have two kids with two polar opposite personalities. I think the best parents listen to their kids and let the kids teach the parents who they are.

    So what I guess I’m saying with this post is that sometimes you roll with the punches and learn to appreciate people where they are. You also learn about how you yourself react to people. I think far too many Asian men are crazy about Asian women, and they aren’t allowing that emotion to come out. Furthermore, they’re not meeting Asian women where they are, partly because they aren’t expressing (and developing) that emotion.

  17. Of course you can. I was going to put that as my last statement, but there are 2 issues at hand.

    1. I don’t see many forums, blogs or dating sites where Asian women are gung-ho for Asian guys, but more importantly as Kobukson mentions,

    2. Its not about Asian women. Its about improving our Game. Us. Asian-American men.

    That is why I said I concur with Kobukson. Read points 1 & 2 again from my previous post. Then we can talk about solidarity.

  18. One more thing I forgot to add. I’ve quoted this verse before in one of my blogs and will bring it up one more time here in order to emphasize the point I believe Urb and Kobukson are trying to get across.

    Do it like this niggaz right hands in the air
    Ball it to a fist and put it over your heart
    Now let’s say it all together let the ceremony start
    I shall – stay real stay true stay holdin figures
    Never put a bitch over my niggaz
    I shall never, cooperate with the law
    Never snake me I always hold you down in war
    If they take one of mine, I take one of theirs
    I never break the oath to the death I swear

    -Smokin’, NaS

  19. Just wanted to come on here to plug my two-yen as I’ve gone through some of the comments from the previous IR posts. I really don’t like being consumed by IR, but since we’re on it — why the heck not?

    I won’t speak for Byron because he can obviously do it for himself, but I think what he meant was that Asian men naturally date Asian women because it’s a nurtured preference. No one in mainstream media has said it’s not cool to date an Asian woman, but many have said publicly, and consistently, they would rather not touch an Asian guy with a ten-foot bamboo stick. Whether that is true or not, I honestly don’t think it is. The masses are easily swayed trends.

    I truly think that anyone that says they wouldn’t date someone of the same race has serious issues internally — out of shear bitterness or self-hate. Pick one. That’s just me of course. Some Asian girl could say she doesn’t date an Asian guy in public all she wants, but part of that is a rejection of her own yellow/brown skin. No matter how attracted she is to an Asian man, she will never admit it to the masses. I’m just talking about those that snub us Asian men in public and not the ones that stand beside us. If your curious to know if they are out there, my girlfriend is one of them, and she happens to be of German/Chinese ancestry.

    Perception is one thing, but attraction is another.

    So for step one, I think it’s important that Asian women, in general, should really refrain from publicly castrating us when it’s convenient. It hurts all of us. When you hear it on the radio, see it on tv, or read about it online, it breaks your heart. So if it’s anyone that needs to take action first, and I’m sure I’m most of the fellas are with me on this, it’s Asian women. Asian women do wield more power than Asian men in so far as media representation here in these corrupted states.

    Where I detach from the guys is trying to get back at AFs. I’m all for interracial dating so long as there is no malicious ulterior motive or long-sought redemption. I do understand that Asian men need to date outside of their race to tip the scale to a more healthier level. But if you’re doing it out of anger, resentment, or bitterness, you won’t get anywhere. Generally, healthy, good-looking women can tell if you’re not right up there and prolly won’t sleep with you — or even give you a second look — for that specific reason. If you’re looking for a cheap lay at a bar, that’s nothing much to brag about in the first place.

    Big picture, Asian dudes running around trying to get the first piece of poon that opens herself up cause she’s shit-faced is not gonna get us anywhere. We need role models. We need strong Asian male role models in the mainstream media. Most importantly, we need strong Asian women to stand beside them, in front or behind. And if the mainstream media isn’t going to do it for us, we need to do it ourselves. Kind of like what we’re doing now to add to the discussion.

    That’s my piece.

  20. This is a sad post I stumbled upon today while on the topic. Looks like Asian men aren’t the only ones getting the negative stereotype. I didn’t post this but I’m almost 100% certain it was done by another frustrated Asian guy.

    Dummy’s Guide to Asian Girls with White Fever

    The WHIGGIE (White Guy Groupie)
    A brief profile of Asian girls afflicted with “White Fever”
    ORIGINS: A subset of women of Asian ethnicity, usually found residing in major U.S. cities, although they have been known to appear overseas occasionally. Closely related to their cousins, Yellow Cabs (Japan), Gwei-Po’s (Hong Kong), Sarong Party girls (Singapore), Twinkies and Bananas.

    NOT TO BE CONUSED WITH: Intelligent, emotionally-secure women who are free of identity problems, self-hate, racial prejudice and chips on their shoulders.

    CHARACTER TRAITS
    - Poorly developed self-identity. Pathetically insecure with themselves and their ethnicity.
    - Resentment of father’s traditional, authoritarian upbringing (whether real or perceived).
    - Brainwashed into believing that they, as AF’s, are more desirable than other women in exotic lotus blossom kinda way. Willingness to pander to western media sexual stereotypes of AF’s, which they perceive as marketing advantage.
    - Thoroughly whitewashed. Desperate need to fit into “mainstream” (i.e. white) society and to distance themselves from their Asian heritage. Racial inferiority complex.
    - Feigned air of superiority when dealing with members of own race and any other minority groups. In need of major attitude adjustments.
    - Exaggerated, whiny, Encino-esque valley girl accent.
    - Delusions of grandeur… “I want it all…and that begins with the right (i.e. white) guy…” Asian-American princess complex.
    - Uncanny ability of determine one’s nationality, occupation, earning capacity and make of auto within three minutes of commencing a conversation.
    - Exaggerated perception of white males’ value in increasing AF’s social status.
    - Ignorant and narrow-minded, eager to adopt and perpetuate fallacious western media stereotypes of Asian men.
    - A compulsion to trash Asians, particularly Asian men, in order to justify their autoracist tendencies, placate their guilt and bolster their self-esteem.
    - Extremely shallow, self-centered, argumentative and boring.
    - Disdains ethnic studies; regards it as a major threat to her carefully constructed, self-deceptive whiggie identity.
    - Despises all Asian men, with the occasional exception of their brothers (after all, they share the same genes.
    - Believes that racism does not exist because she, as an AF, has never experienced it first hand, or is too dense to realize it. Besides, those Asiaphiles are so nice to her (while plotting to get into her pants.
    - Gets a warm fuzzy feeling when watching The Joy Luck Club, while snuggled up to her geeky Asiaphile boyfriend.
    - Believes that the only reason an Asian person would disrespect her is because they are racist.
    - Has lost count of how many WM’s she’s done this month.
    - The wet-dream come true for socially-handicapped Caucasian nerds who are unable to attract Caucasian women.
    - Threatened and insecure in the presence of any culturally-perceptive Asian person or any AM not fitting her stereotype of the quiet , marginalized, “model minority” geek.
    - Fundamentally insecure, utterly confused, lacking in self respect.
    - Many aging whiggies, after being used and abandoned by WM’s in favor of younger, more nubile whiggies and being rejected by AM’s who see through their transparency, develop a bitterness towards all men, period.
    - Denial of all of the above.
    FACIAL EXPRESSIONS: a) Look of contempt when eyes meet those of any non-white male, converting to beaming grin upon sighting of WM victim/target; b) terminal pout or c) bimboish expression that defies deep thought.
    TYPICAL ATTIRE: Anything trendy, mainstream-looking and seductive (especially if it’s black and tight). Big hair (perhaps their most valuable asset) tossed with hand every 15 seconds. Wonderbra. Fanatical whiggies have been known to undergo certain procedures such as eyelid surgery, breast augmentation and vaginal tightening operations in order to increase their marketability to WM’s. Blue contact lenses and bleached blonde hair have even been sported on occasion. Note: Attire may vary depending on the specific type of WM being targeted.
    I.Q: Too low to measure.
    NATURAL HABITAT:
    Personal ad columns (“exotic, slim, SAF seeks successful, generous SWM”), cheerleading squads, sorority houses (role: token “oriental sisters”), T.V. newsdesks, B-grade Kung-Fu flicks, trendy nightclubs (usually found necking with aging WM’s), Chinese restaurants (slumming with the WM and demonstrating that she’s “in touch with her heritage”), anywhere else frequented by White males.
    TYPICAL WHIGGIE QUIPS:
    Age 10: “Mom, why do we have to be (Chinese/Japanese/Korean)? Do you have to dress like that? And what’s with Dad and his accent?
    Age 12: “Mom, I want an eyelid job for Christmas, okay?
    Later on…
    “I’ve always only dated white guys. I don’t know why, I just have.”
    “Race doesn’t matter. I just happen to like white guys. It’s just a preference.”
    “We are the world, we are the children…We…”
    “I’ve gone out with all kinds of guys…Dutch, English, French, German, you name it. Even went out with a Jewish guy once! After all, love is color blind.”
    “Eeeew, Jennifer, how could you go out with that (insert minority group here) guy!?” Totally gross!
    “Oooh Roger, you’re like soooo strong and intelligent. Did you say you drive a beemer? Kewl! (giggle).”
    “I want to learn English better…you maybe teach, handsome man? Are you U.S. citizen?” (Yes FOB’s can be whiggies too!)
    “Like why would I want to go out with an Asian guy? They don’t own me or anything. Uhh, and besides they are all male chauvinist …and domineering too…yeah that’s it! Didn’t you see The Joy Luck Club?”
    Like, I’m dating *out* of my race, so how can I be racists?!! Duh!!
    CLOSELY RELATED TO: Racists, bigots, wannabes, ho’s, chameleons, white supremacists, a fish out of water.
    MEDIA REPRESENTATION/ROLE MODELS: Connie Chung, Amy Tan, Lisa Ling, Margaret Cho, Sheryl Wu Dunn, any of The Joy Luck Club protagonists (except the one who married an Asian dude).
    NATURAL COUNTERPARTS: Asiaphiles…who else?

  21. I wanted to write that what you’ve said isn’t true, that Asian women do not in large numbers undermine the sociopolitical position of Asian men for their own advancement, that we do in fact see you as our men, our brothers, but I’ve witnessed enough to understand that your conclusions are well-substantiated.

    Indeed, it is my understanding that many Asian women do see us as ‘brothers’. Many of them have said that dating an Asian man would be like dating their brother.

    It’s tragic and inexcusable. With that said, you’re deepening the divide and giving the kind of women you criticize more justification for their choices (and “preferences”). You say you don’t care, you say good riddens. You shouldn’t. You should care.

    Sister, the divide is already deep regardless of what guys like me say or do. You conveniently forget the fact that Asian women have been out-dating for years despite the fact that Asian men have been pretty loyal, like trained dogs. So from our perspective, we really have nothing to lose either way.

    Actually, I think guys who think like me are a fairly recent development. It hasn’t reached critical mass yet, but it is getting there.

    You say that I should care. Do you understand what makes a man care for his family, or community, or country? During war, every soldier has a photo of his sweetheart. He tells himself, THATS what he’s fighting for. That’s what drives him to put himself in harm’s way and survive.

    What do you suppose would happen if, say, the women back home abandoned the soldiers on the front? Not just that but a good number of them are giving aid to the enemy and sleeping with them. What effect do you suppose this would have on the morale of the soldiers? Do you think that they will still want to fight to protect whatever the hell it was they thought they were protecting???

    It is true that I am deepening the divide. That’s EXACTLY what we’re gonna do. We’re gonna escalate this thing and see where that takes us. Mutually Assured Destruction, if you will.

    A community where such a thing as an IR disparity is not one worth protecting or defending.

    Asian women have been sending a certain kind of message to Asian men for years. Guess what? We hear you loud and clear. You’re gonna get exactly what you want.

    …and giving the kind of women you criticize more justification for their choices (and “preferences”).

    Monkey see…monkey do.

    And if you don’t, if you’re not to any degree at all an activist, then why are you here? Why are you reading BigWowo? Why are you yourself bloggers of APA activist sites? It seems to me that simply by your presence here you’re somewhat activist, or at least there is a bit of that activisit spirit in you, in which case I go back to my original point, that you should care about this, that you shouldn’t simply write us all off and say you want nothing.

    If one is willing to stretch the meaning of the word ‘activist’ to the breaking point, then yes, I suppose I am an activist.

    I am an activist in the sense that I have a burning desire to reach out to other AMs. Like some of the reformed homeless men that I see in the NYC subway, who’ve somehow pulled themselves out of homelessness, and are now going around reaching out to others who were just like him. I want to reach out to those who continue to suffer quietly and battle with personal demons. I want to inform my brothers of our common condition, to reason together and try to make some sense of the confusion, to try to find some meaning in all of this, and despite where fate has placed us, to persevere, have hope and faith, and to change.

    So I know why I am here. We all have a different role to play. Do you know why you are here? You obviously care very much about solidarity and the community. How is debating with me gonna help anything? Shouldn’t you be reaching out to other Asian women discussing with them about IR disparity and some of the consequences of their actions, behavior, and what effects its having on our community? At least, since you’re a woman, much of the familiar defensive refrains that they would use if a guy talking to them is completely dismantled.

    Aww, but that would be kinda boring for you, isn’t it?

    Perhaps your unconditional love for your own community will be the beacon to guide the wayward back. At least it’s a start. It’s certainly no compromise of your pride or integrity to be the bigger person.

    The comments here sadden me. How will there ever be solidarity?

  22. Of course you can. I was going to put that as my last statement, but there are 2 issues at hand.

    1. I don’t see many forums, blogs or dating sites where Asian women are gung-ho for Asian guys, but more importantly as Kobukson mentions,

    Hell, nevermind all these non-existent forums or blogs. Just do a random sample of personal ads from Asian women from an online dating site, pretty much any one will do, and see what you find. The message is clear: you are not wanted (SAF for WM). At best, you are an afterthought (SAF for WM……..or AM).

    Act accordingly.

  23. So for step one, I think it’s important that Asian women, in general, should really refrain from publicly castrating us when it’s convenient. It hurts all of us. When you hear it on the radio, see it on tv, or read about it online, it breaks your heart. So if it’s anyone that needs to take action first, and I’m sure I’m most of the fellas are with me on this, it’s Asian women. Asian women do wield more power than Asian men in so far as media representation here in these corrupted states.

    I agree. However, Righteous Asian Babes who stand for Pride and Solidarity are very far and few in between.

    In Jewish culture, one of their most celebrated heroines is Hadassah. There is even an organization called “Hadassah”. She is also referred to as “Esther” (Hadassah is her original Hebrew name). I won’t get into the full story here (if you are interested, just read the Book of Esther in the OT) but suffice it to say it takes place when the Jews were displaced from their homeland into the Persian Empire. Hadassah was a Righteous Jewish Babe who risked her own life and used her position of privilege to save her people. Our community suffers for lack of Asian Hadassahs.

    I think it is highly unreasonable to expect Asian women to see eye-to-eye with Asian men about the IR disparity. Due to the very nature of the subject matter of the debate itself, men and women are already predisposed to maintain an opposing and orthogonal stance. The debate is a conflation of both racial and sexist tensions. The women are much more preoccupied with the elements of sexism and perceive our input as us “trying to control them” or even blame the IT disparity on AM sexism. There’s also the power issue. Women like wielding power, whatever form that may take, especially if its over men. Whether they want to admit it or not, most if not all Asian women, even the ones who are claiming to be righteous, are secretly glad that they have a social leverage with which to manipulate AMs. This is the Asian woman’s version of feminism.

    I’ve had Asian women subtly insinuate certain things to me that, if you just stated it flatly, meant “even if things don’t work out between us or if there’s something I don’t like about being with you, it’s OK because I can always count on finding a white guy to replace you”. I was in a relationship with a Korea girl and at one point I was having difficulties with my parents. Asian parents can be a real pain in the ass because they get too involved in your relationships as we all know very well. I mean, that’s an entire topic in itself. Anyway, she said to me, “it would be a lot less hassle if I just dated a white guy”. That what she said. Instead of saying “let’s work through this together” she pulled a” white guy card” on me. I have another friend, a KA just like myself. Some other Korean girl said some really fucked up thing to him also. She said she’d rather hook up with a black guy who’s rich than be with him. This friend was a schoolteacher, btw. The implicit message here is that even a black guy (despite being black,, of course) but as long as he’s rich is preferable to a fellow Asian who only happens to be a teacher. This is what we’re dealing with, fellas.

    I can’t be the only one who’s experienced something like this. Because Asian girls know that they are always in high demand, and therefore can always count on finding some white guy (or black or whatever) out there, they have little incentive to making the relationship work with an Asian guy. They have little incentive to make themselves more attractive to an Asian guy. The vast majority of Asian-American women out there are not fit for consumption. Because they face so little competition in the dating market, their “quality” if you will, as a potential mate for an Asian guy, has deteriorated.

    We helped create this state of affairs by not introducing competition into the market. By staying loyal to Asian women ONLY, Asian guys are only digging themselves a deeper hole. I’m really at a loss to understand why so many of you don’t get this.

    Where I detach from the guys is trying to get back at AFs. I’m all for interracial dating so long as there is no malicious ulterior motive or long-sought redemption. I do understand that Asian men need to date outside of their race to tip the scale to a more healthier level. But if you’re doing it out of anger, resentment, or bitterness, you won’t get anywhere. Generally, healthy, good-looking women can tell if you’re not right up there and prolly won’t sleep with you — or even give you a second look — for that specific reason. If you’re looking for a cheap lay at a bar, that’s nothing much to brag about in the first place.

    Thanks for dropping by, TMM, I respect your opinions and blog work a lot.

    However, I disagree with you on this. Do not conflate a macroscopic, meta-analysis of the IR disparity with how one will actually conduct his affairs n the interpersonal domain.

    But I would tell my fellow brothers, embrace the darkness. The anger and bitterness. Don’t resist it. Embrace it. Because, like it or not, it’s part of your identity. It informs a big part of who you are as an Asian man living, as you so eloquently put it, in these corrupted states. That energy can be useful if harnessed properly. Let your anger be the rocket exhaust that will propel you into action.

  24. @ Kobu: It’s difficult for me to respond when you don’t debate logically. If I were still 21 I’d probably sit here and point each bit of faulty reasoning out, line by line, but as you implied by asking why I’m bantering with you, that wouldn’t accomplish much. I get that under different circumstances you would be an intriguing individual to speak or exchange with, but you are so full of hate that you have closed yourself off to any ideology but yours. You don’t want to hear what I have to say, though for some reason you respond anyway. I, on the other hand, respond because I do want to hear what you have to say. In any regard, should we discuss further, we’d only be creating noise, unless you crack open your mind at least a bit to what others with counterpoints have to contribute.

    Your contentions assume that Asian men are blameless. You poo-poo women who pull out the victim card and then you essentially do the same. Why are we playing a circular game of who is the bigger victim?

    That confounding analogy to soldiers going off to war and sweethearts… what was that all about?! How is there any correlation at all between (Soldier, an individual + Sweetheart, an individual x Love) and (s(Asian men as a whole) + s(Asian women as a whole) / APA solidarity)?

    As Hallmarkey as it sounds, I still believe that unconditional love from both sides of the divide is the answer. In fact, your soldier-sweetheart reference inadvertently proves my point about what the solution here is. That analogy strengthens my position more than it does yours.

    Furthermore, you patronized the wrong woman about engaging in dialogue and mentoring other APA sisters. I’ve published in top tier journals, been anthologized in academic texts, spoken on national platforms, mentored collectives and mentored young individuals about white sexual imperialism as the major hurdle for APA feminism to overcome, and any time I sense a racialized preference for out-dating in an Asian or Diasporic Asian woman, I challenge her to question why she harbors the preference. Funny you bring this up today because just this morning, I found out I won an award for something I contributed related to just this issue.

    Finally, I bother to speak up here despite how zealously you denounce APA women, assert that you don’t need them, don’t care about them, don’t want them to support or take any part in your missions because no matter how or why you push women like me away, I’m nonetheless here as an ally. It’s okay that you don’t acknowledge that. My support isn’t conditioned on your acknowledgement.

  25. Why isn’t he logical? I understood everything he just said.

    Byron, sometimes perception can be more powerful than reality. I don’t recall who said it but I didn’t want to limit it to dating WF only. I mean, all women.

    Personally, I have a preference for Latins.

  26. It’s difficult for me to respond when you don’t debate logically. If I were still 21 I’d probably sit here and point each bit of faulty reasoning out, line by line, but as you implied by asking why I’m bantering with you, that wouldn’t accomplish much. I get that under different circumstances you would be an intriguing individual to speak or exchange with,

    Thank you.

    but you are so full of hate that you have closed yourself off to any ideology but yours.

    Hate is a very strong word. Hate is correlated with evil. I am not doing anything evil.

    You don’t want to hear what I have to say, though for some reason you respond anyway. I, on the other hand, respond because I do want to hear what you have to say.

    I have to respond to you because you keep twisting my message according to your own mental filter. When you cannot defeat an opponent’s statement, the next best thing is to try to obfuscate it.

    You do not want to hear what I want to say. To be quite honest, I do not want to here what I have to say either. Strange, huh? It’s not a pleasant topic for either one of us, believe me. But truth exists independently whether we wish to acknowledge it or not.

    Your contentions assume that Asian men are blameless.

    No, I don’t. I criticize Asian men just as harshly, that we have our own culpability in the mess. I keep emphasizing that AMs must change. I guess you miss that part.

    You poo-poo women who pull out the victim card and then you essentially do the same. Why are we playing a circular game of who is the bigger victim?

    A victim is someone who only complains about his problems but does nothing about it.


    As Hallmarkey as it sounds, I still believe that unconditional love from both sides of the divide is the answer. In fact, your soldier-sweetheart reference inadvertently proves my point about what the solution here is. That analogy strengthens my position more than it does yours.

    In any regard, should we discuss further, we’d only be creating noise, unless you crack open your mind at least a bit to what others with counterpoints have to contribute.

    Ok, I’m willing to listen. Why is “unconditional love” the answer?

  27. No, the arguments set forth supra don’t comply with logic; deconstruct it and you’ll note the fallacies.

    I’m not obfuscating anybody’s message. I am disagreeing with certain points and including why. I’m inquiring further, paraphrasing and then asking whether my interpretation is correct, and if it’s not, then it’s not.

    If you unconditionally love another, you will forgive that person when he or she hurts you. If you continue on the path of forgiveness, I trust that eventually you will touch that person and amends will be made, agreements reached, bridges rebuilt. And if that person is never touched, that is okay too, because you at least are in a place of peace. I swear I’m usually not this Hallmarkey.

    You stated that you criticize Asian men harshly for doing nothing about their so-called plight, and then define a victim as someone who complains about problems and yet does nothing about them. Doesn’t that mean you agree with me that Asian men are hereby pulling out the victim card?

    And, uh…. it’s really cute that you think you’re “undefeated.”

  28. No, he said that men are victims but do nothing about them. He wants them to STOP playing the victim and do something about the problem.

  29. Koby,

    You act like most of us Asian men don’t understand your plight. That’s where you are sorely mistaken. We feel every ounce of it — I guarantee, even those that just lurk never do comment. You can’t take an isolated situation and try to manifest it into every thing negative you can conjure up. That situation with your school teacher friend is exceptional. However, I doubt that people like her speak to the majority.

    I’m not so sure the righteous ones are few and far in between — they are out there. Saying that we don’t need them also doesn’t add much to the discussion. We do need them — badly. I’m not telling you to go get on your knees and beg the next Asian girl for a date. What you are describing is an AM sausage fest geared at laying the next crack whores with pale skin looking for the next high. I don’t support that and I don’t seriously believe that your “welcome to the darkside” approach holds any kind of merit in so far as advancing our status as average guys with a libido.

    When you see two confident people together, that speaks volumes. And it this case, even without dating outside of your race, seeing a strong and attractive AMAF couple together in front of your TV screen will prolly get you more pussy than any strategy you’ve outlined.

  30. There are some holes in your argument, TMM.

    The argument that we’re expecting AMs to go out and trick non-AF women to prove something is incorrect and disingenuous. What *is* being preached is that AM need to specifically look for quality women elsewhere. Additionally, everyone keeps ignoring the social aspect of the situation. The perception, rumor, etc. is what needs to be addressed and changed. It doesn’t matter if the Japanese Americans were loyal Americans during WW2. The mere perception was enough to warrent them a trip to an internment camp.

    It’s like the difference between an accountant and trader. Accountant’s are focused on the situation as it is. Traders are focused on the image and perception of the image. Both add value. Simply ignoring one for the other is a tragic mistake.

  31. Hey there, Minority, good to hear from you again. As usual, you’re making good sense!

  32. @Cman—oooops! My mistake. I didn’t recognize the sarcasm and that you had the word lowering in quotes. That’s what happens when you post on the fly.

    Kobukson wrote:
    “I also think we need to let go of this ridiculous notion that “Asian women should have our backs.” Why the hell would I want a bunch of backstabbers to have my back? “

    It’s funny; I grew up in a pretty much white bread working mid class to solidly middle class suburb, with very few minorities around me. I never thought that there was much of a solidified Asian community to begin with, let alone to think of a notion where Asians were supportive of each other. But I’m afraid I don’t have the visceral reaction you have to use the word “backstabbers”. Each person has different experiences. I can only speak for myself.

    “AMs are stuck on Asian women because society has programmed you into thinking you have no other choice. Also, internally, fear and cowardice holds you back. Many Asian guys are yellow-bellied cowards who are afraid to leave the familiarity and safety of the reservation.”

    Interestingly enough, I was never stuck on Asian women. The Asians in my part of the county just weren’t plentiful. Whether I knew it or not, to some extent I was white washed purely by the environment I grew up in, yet, I knew I wasn’t same as everyone in my peer group. I always had pride in who I was; no self loathing for me. And perhaps that is the big problem right there for some of these other AM’s. They’re lacking in the ability to be at ease with the greater over all populace, the predominantly white culture, and that is what keeps them tethered to being stuck on AF. They don’t know how to get off the reservation because they can’t function well enough in the world outside the rez. My parents may have been unusual in that they didn’t believe in self-segregation—they wanted me to know how to survive in the white man’s world and how to deal with the predominant white culture. On the other hand, I’ve got a bunch of cousins who were raised kind of insular, always cloistered among themselves, working in their parents’ store, not well educated. They come across as being really naive about how the real world works. No, I take that back. In many ways, they come across as clueless. And I hate to say it, dumb.

    TZ wrote:
    “The comments here sadden me. How will there ever be solidarity?”

    TZ, I never thought there was much solidarity anyway with the Asian community. I’m still pondering just exactly what is Asian American culture? I always thought we were too fragmented, with too many different experiences for AA’s to have any community. But that’s just my take on it. I do sense that there is much more unity among the younger generation of Asian kids than when I was growing up.

    MaSir wrote:
    “Asian men ascend to the socioeconomic status as white males. Notice I said SOCIOeconomic and not just economic since there’s major difference between the two. It ain’t news that Asian men are economically on par with most white males in the US. What’s lacking is the social proof that Asian men hold just as much power and sex appeal to the masses. Once the competitive playing field levels out on a social level where we see this in movies, TV shows, music, etc, we might finally have what many Asian men have been yearning for in the US – equilibrium…”

    I agree. The real problem is, how do we influence or affect the greater culture at large? Just look at the way black culture is woven thru out American pop culture. You’ve got TV commercials where people are rapping. Pop and R&B has toppled rock and roll as the predominant musical genre. Right now, rock and roll (which is still black music in my mind) is dead. The only thing I can think of is that at the very least, we can control our own images thru indie film making, music, etc. Enough to create a buzz so that it interests the overall predominant white culture.

    “Instead of standing up for their male counterparts, culture, heritage and ethnicity when someone shits on it, they [Asian women] prefer not to rock the boat and simply assimilate, suck up or sell out.”

    While AF’s get fetishsized, they don’t suffer the constant degradation from the American media that AM’s do. Until they suffer the slings and arrows coming their way, everything is fine. They have some issues to contend with, but I don’t know if it compares to the marginalization of the Asian male. The women don’t pose a threat to the predominant culture. AF are more readily accepted and you see that being reflected in the media. Even a goddamn Progressive Insurance commercial shows an AF/WM pair. Implicit is that it’s a couple. Not two separate customers. But if it’s a male? Now what a minute; that is a threat to the white man’s sensibilities. You can’t show a white girl being paired up with an AM!

    TMM wrote:

    “Where I detach from the guys is trying to get back at AFs. I’m all for interracial dating so long as there is no malicious ulterior motive or long-sought redemption. I do understand that Asian men need to date outside of their race to tip the scale to a more healthier level. But if you’re doing it out of anger, resentment, or bitterness, you won’t get anywhere…..We need role models. We need strong Asian male role models in the mainstream media. Most importantly, we need strong Asian women to stand beside them, in front or behind. And if the mainstream media isn’t going to do it for us, we need to do it ourselves.”

    I agree. This is what I’ve noticed as well. I just don’t think it’s healthy to have some sort of agenda. You date a person because you like them—not because you have something to prove to some third party. Absolutely agree with the latter part.

    As for embracing bitterness, anger—while I understand the sentiments behind it—I think it’s limiting. If you use anger as a tool for action and for self improvement, great. But then the anger has to be let go. This is what I was talking about in carrying around psychic baggage. Otherwise, you’ve let the Jamie Yeo’s of this world inside your head, and they’re shitting and pissing all over the place. And then, are you really transformed?

    Furthermore, I don’t have any problem with TZ. I just don’t have the same vehement reaction you folks do. Whether or not her statement to the contrary about AFs undermining the AM is true, or whether your statement is true, is of no consequence to me. At some point, you gotta live your life, man. I ain’t trying to tell anyone how to live their life, just speaking for myself, but I do know life is too short. Happiness is hard to come by in this life, so you might as well get it where you can.

  33. uRB4N, kobukson, I agree with some of your points, and I do appreciate that you’re trying to help out your Asian brothers. Just try to remember that in every community there must be a balance of perspectives. There will always be extremists who are fundamentally limited within their immediate social circles and on the opposite there will be the PUAs who advocate leaving the community, dating out and in some form, ‘get even’. And then there are those in the middle who still feel ties to their culture, but date out when practical. Everyone has a point and we all contribute something to the community.

    You can’t expect all the AM to become PUAs anymore than the isolationists who expect everyone to reject all forms of IR. You’re simply replacing one stereotype with another when in fact AMs have different life experiences and different needs. We’re normal people, not the one-dimensional caricatures that you’re working so hard to remove. And the same holds for AF. Yes, there are many of them who hurt us (whether accidentally or intentionally), or apathetic to our pain. Then there are those who support AM, and they do exist (heck, I have some in the family). There is more than one type of AF just like there is more than one type of AM. Like Jaewhan stated, there are many AMs who have instinctual preferences for AF. The same is true for AF, and they are valuables allies to cultivate.

    Why? Because from my perspective, the problem with the IR debate that’s been going on for so many years is it consists of just too many damn GUYS. I have to agree with TMM that it’s just a big sausage fest constantly beating the same drum. We risk making a completely new stereotype just for us. Without allies we’ve basically cornered ourselves, fighting for survival. The only way to make any progress is to have more AF like TZ to speak out for us, to bring more attention to the issue, and show that the IR disparity isn’t just the fabrication of a bunch of ‘bitter lonely men’. We have to encourage AF to speak out and we can start by educating them and show that they, too, have a stake in this issue. Most of them will someday (if not already) have children of their own. And if they look anything close to Asian, you know how this society will label (and condemn) them. Would any parent want his/her children to suffer a lifetime of rejection, confusion and low self-esteem?

    As much as I dislike the theory, I admit that PUAs have their role to play and it may even be a vital one, but they’re just a part of the battle, not the solution. You can’t win the war with just one strategy. And you can’t win this war alone.

  34. @TZ

    You stated,

    I’ve published in top tier journals, been anthologized in academic texts, spoken on national platforms, mentored collectives and mentored young individuals about white sexual imperialism as the major hurdle for APA feminism to overcome, and any time I sense a racialized preference for out-dating in an Asian or Diasporic Asian woman, I challenge her to question why she harbors the preference. Funny you bring this up today because just this morning, I found out I won an award for something I contributed related to just this issue.

    I commend you for your unconditional support. What I would like to know is, what award did you receive that is related to this topic and do you have any posts online which I, or any other Asian male could view online?

  35. Anyway, she said to me, “it would be a lot less hassle if I just dated a white guy”. That what she said. Instead of saying “let’s work through this together” she pulled a” white guy card” on me. I have another friend, a KA just like myself. Some other Korean girl said some really fucked up thing to him also. She said she’d rather hook up with a black guy who’s rich than be with him. This friend was a schoolteacher, btw. . .This is what we’re dealing with, fellas.

    Damn Kobukson.

    It PAINS ME when I read or hear these kinds of stories, because I’ve experienced the same kind of crap countless times. I’m sure many Asian men have at one point or another. Its funny how women can say all they want about how guys are not supposed to be sensitive things regarding the like, and we should be able to \take it\ because we’re men. If you forgot then let me remind you. We aren’t robots. We are men. Men have feelings just like women. Do you like it when a guy calls you a bitch, fat or ugly? Didn’t think so.

    Granted, I’ve had some flashes of success with Asian women as well – one night stands, flings, girlfriends, etc. However, in retrospect of the totality of my endeavors these are substantially less than all of the times I heard the \white guys only\ line.

    And that really fucking sucks. You see, those who criticize Asian men as being whiny, bitter old souls are completely clueless. They fail to realize that we weren’t BORN resentful. We TURNED that way gradually over time. It was the classic case of, \OMFG. Not this shit again.\

    So after reading through all these posts recently and reviewing some of my own blogs I decided to cycle through my entire life and figure out at what point this whole IR dating disparity passed the threshold of fascination to annoyance to sheer contempt. I’ll probably post this on my blog in the near future just so I can empty out all of this negativity churning within, but looking back I can say it all started to unravel my junior year of college. The irony is as a child I truly embraced seeing interracial AF/WM pairings.

    Just like Kobukson however, I began noticing and receiving this pattern of responses from Asian women I either saw or met on the street, at the mall, in the club, at the bar, in the restaurant, in the bookstore or online. It was like listening to the same 10 songs on your local pop radio station.

    \I only date white guys\
    \I like white guys\
    \Sorry. Only interested in white guys\

    If there are any of you Asian female readers out there of this blog who’ve said such disgusting remarks, what I’ve always wanted to know is, why? Why do you say such hurtful things to your male counterparts thinking that \its okay\ for you to make such a statement? How do you expect us to react? Do you seriously expect us to embrace it unconditionally with open arms?

    For every Asian female who’s uttered such a line to me, you are the reason why I trash your fellow sisters for dating interracially regardless if the relationship is genuine, fetish or not. If you would’ve just done it and kept your fucking trap shut we could’ve actually tolerated it. Instead, you decided to open up your mouth and ruin it for every Asian male who wanted you as his queen, and now this is where we’re at.

    I’ll be real with it too. Its psychologically scarred me. I’ll be the first to acknowledge the breadth and depth of the impact its had on my spirit since I continue returning to this topic of discussion that’s beaten to a dead horse a million times over. Yet I still can’t seem to reach a state of peace or restitution within.

    Maybe I am the one to really blame.

  36. I still think you’re warping the statements being made. At least, mine seem to be.

    The fact that I encourage AM to move away is based purely off of social reasons, not out of revenge. The problem is that AF, like you pointed out, are never involved anyway so you must come up with a solution that does not engage them.

    On top of that, the same “strategy” since time began and have gotten no results. The problem isn’t with us coming up with a single solution; it’s that you have never tried anything else.

    The longer it festers, the worse the reaction will be. In all my life, I have never seen a problem improve itself the longer it drags out. It’s gotten so bad that more and more AMs are going the revenge route. Hell, I know many AMs that view AFs the same way they view WMs. The trust is completely gone. Keep it up and people will eventually resort to revenge.

    What’s the quote?

    “Tickle us do we not laugh? Prick us do we not bleed? Poison us do we not die? Wrong us shall we not revenge?”

  37. MaSir,

    Corrected it.

    And I’m looking forward to your blog post. I definitely do not believe in embracing the dark side–when you embrace the dark side, it just keeps on building and building until it drives you crazy. If you use your blog to “empty out all of this negativity churning within,” you may be surprised to find goodness left over, and perhaps that can be a seed to reach out to some of the wonderful Asian women who support Asian men. Believe in individuals; don’t look towards the masses.

    I’ll be real with it too. Its psychologically scarred me. I’ll be the first to acknowledge the breadth and depth of the impact its had on my spirit since I continue returning to this topic of discussion that’s beaten to a dead horse a million times over. Yet I still can’t seem to reach a state of peace or restitution within.

    Maybe I am the one to really blame.

    It really does take a huge psychological toll on Asian American men. A huge toll, one which is hard to understand without actually going through it.

    Let me know how your introspection goes. I think the key is just looking for the positive. There are Asian women who are doing great things. It’s all about focusing on individuals rather than the crowd.

    Urbs, are you telling me you don’t know ONE good Asian woman? Not one? I think TZ here has proven herself to be a soldier for the cause, but what about in your personal life or family life? Isn’t there one good Asian woman who does something for you that no Latin or White woman can?

  38. No but that’s probably because I chose to distance myself. I don’t consider my mom a race, she’s just “mom.”

    I don’t reach out to AFs at all because I’ve managed to develop an extreme hostility towards them. Over the years, I’ve watched and observed their apathy towards this issue which has caused my feelings to fester into resentment. Interestingly enough, I’ve never experienced these situations first hand. Almost all of it was listening to other Asian men and from friends who have had their confidence absolutely decimated because of it.

    Many moved back to Asia to improve their chances. Some got better and started dating non-Asian women. One hung himself.

    So, as you can see, I have a somewhat unique perspective on this issue and views on AFs.

    Currently, I am at the stage where it’s been a few years after I’ve dehumanized AFs as viable and trustworthy human beings. My mom doesn’t blame me because she observed the situation which caused me to be in my current state (this answers the chicken/egg argument). Like Chris Rock said, OJ Simpson killed his wife. It’s wrong but I understand.

    I believe that I was put in a position to champion this issue given my “standing” in society.

    I’m 31 and doing very well for myself. I own an apartment in NYC on Park Avenue; closing on an apartment in Shanghai and Taiwan. I have a trust fund for my future kids already set aside. I drive a Mercedes. I have tons of great friends and associates. I’m very social and have class. I plan on building and sailing my own boat soon. I have a very extensive wardrobe and dress really well. I work out constantly. I am involved with a hot WF for 2 years now. I generally don’t like to say or admit it when women make positive comments about my looks.

    This gives me more credibility to talk about it. What are they going to say? “uRB4N is a bitter loser who is nowhere in life?” I’ve met many from online boards and they were “shocked” to say the least.

    Picture it like this; in Shallow Hal, Jack Black plays a man who is extremely superficial about women. He gets hypnotized by Tony Robbins to see the inner beauty of women so the physically attractive women morph into hags and vice versa. Problem is, my version is much more jarring.

    If I see a physically attractive Asian woman, she morphs into a demon from the likes of “The Devil’s Advocate.”

    It’s not just the physical part either. Whenever AFs engage me in discussions, I spend 100% of the time thinking “what’s her angle? What is she trying to take from me?” This results in me never taking anything they say seriously.

    “Compliments about my physical appearance” translates into “She probably spent her life dating WM but when it’s marrying age, she wants to take advantage of my financial situation and the hard work that came with it.”

  39. MaSir, none of you guys deserve any of this. Kobukson is in a funk, and who can really blame him after being treated like that? Urb4n is admittedly bitter. All of you guys have legitimate reasons to be hurt, but you’ve GOT to find a way to let it go or it’s going to eat you alive.

    Stuff like this will rob you of all happiness in life, if you let it. You HAVE to find a way to let it go.

  40. @King — Thanks for the callout. I’m glad I still see you around these rice fields droppin’ good.

    @Mojo — Anger could be used to drive you. But, you have to craft it in a way to make people listen. Otherwise, they shut down and it’s just background noise. If you let it consume you with bitterness, as King pointed out, it will drive you mad.

    @ Leon — Good-lookin’ out. You have a good head on your shoulders. I don’t think the PUA folks do any kind of good. You make a great point, but in reality, the whole idea is a sideshow. That’s not progress. But of course, IMHO only. Respect.

    @Masir — We’ve gone through the same things you guys have. I choose not to blog about those things anymore because it divides us. Matter of fact, I’ve done so many times. You are a smart guy, but you cannot let it get the best of you. But if that’s your thing, I support you just like every other Asian guy, or any other guy that cares about the same issues for that matter, does. Keep crusading.

    @urbs — Sorry if I misspoke about what you guys actually do. But you gotta let that shit go. Material things will not make you happy. I hope you find someone that cares just as much about you as your mother. You need to lay down your beef with Asian women. There are genuine people out there, and you can’t keep thinking someone is trying to game you. You feel like you always have to have the upper hand. That in itself, is insecurity. Let it go.

  41. I never said that material items will make someone happy. Why is the context of a statement constantly being warped to fit your argument? You have to cut that out.

    Those details about me were mentioned in a context to show that I project an image that is not stereotypical of the archtype that you have come to expect. This, in itself, gives me more credibility where other AMs lack. We all know that AMs who already have what I do don’t complain so I am guessing my presence in this topic is somewhat odd.

    Lastly, I never let anything go. The reason is because this is continuing to harm the psychological wellbeing of AMs everywhere. In fact, it would be socially irresponsible to do so. As to always having the upper hand, it comes with being competitive. You either always try to outwit your opponent or you end up being the loser.

  42. As I’ve stated before, I understand the sentiments behind the anger, the sting of rejection. I do and yes, I think a lot of have some psychological scarring. Some more than others. And for those who’ve had really horrible experiences, time and time again, you have my sympathies.

    I’ve shared some of my life experiences and urbs and kobu have done the same and it’s apparent that everyone is different. We are all shaped differently by these experiences. I can’t tell anyone how to live their life because I ain’t walking in their shoes.

    I wish you guys happiness and peace of mind. And there is no one right path to getting there; that is up to you to find. What works for me might not work for you. So, while I may disagree with what I view as some rather extreme view points, do what you have to do.

    I just hope that the anger doesn’t warp your perceptions too much. As TMM said, you can use the anger to drive you. I think that’s good if you can use that as a catalyst for you to improve yourself, to do something positive. i’m not suggesting that we forget these experiences that drive the anger, but let it go so that were not so reactionary.

    urbs, if you feel the need to be socially responsible and to not let it go, well, then, brother, go forth and call the bad AF’s out. For me it would wear on my psyche to be constantly on guard. I haven’t been confronted with the “i only date white guy” AF in a loooong time, but I’d still call her out.

    First, I wouldn’t let her get the satisfaction of seeing my lose my cool. Second, I’d nonchalantly say, with some bemusement, something like, “Oh wow. Really? For such a pretty girl, it’s too bad you have such an ugly and small little mind.” And I’d walk away from her shaking my head and chuckling to myself as if to say, “man, what the fuck was THAT chick all about?”

  43. It seems that you guys are having a very difficult time letting go of the idea that the only people who complain about this are “bitter.”

    Having this load on my mind doesn’t bother me that much. Here’s why: if I suspect the AF demographic of trying to be exploitative, I simply distance myself from all of them. Therefore, it’s not tiring. It would only be tiring if I had to weed through individuals.

    If I don’t want to get robbed, I don’t travel to Brownsville in Brooklyn. Are there good people there I will miss? Absolutely. Is it worth all the trouble to meet them? Probably not.

  44. I give you the words of MaSir:

    “I’ll be real with it too. Its psychologically scarred me. I’ll be the first to acknowledge the breadth and depth of the impact its had on my spirit since I continue returning to this topic of discussion that’s beaten to a dead horse a million times over. Yet I still can’t seem to reach a state of peace or restitution within.”

    I give you the words of Kobukson:

    “But I would tell my fellow brothers, embrace the darkness. The anger and bitterness. Don’t resist it. Embrace it. Because, like it or not, it’s part of your identity.”

    The weight of carrying this as a PERSONAL issue is too heavy to do you good. No one would ask you to give up the cause or the struggle. But you guys have to find a way to let go and process the hurt for what it is. All of you are going to end up all right in the end, and you’ll be bald, and wrinkled, bouncing your grandchildren on your knee. But in the mean time, you’ve got to release this feeling of internal anger and unfairness.

    You’re not the only ones dealing with this. There are similarities in the African American community. Some people become so incensed by the unfairness and horror of slavery and Jim Crow that they are consumed by it. In most cases, they were never slaves themselves, and never lived under a Jim Crow law, but the idea and aftermath of it chokes the joy out of their lives. They spend their entire lives reading Malcolm X, and Angela Davis, they rail against he apathetic idiots who don’t get it (meaning those who don’t think like them).

    There are still some battles of equality to be fought for African Americans, but we can fight them without carrying the personal pain, anger, frustration and bitterness. We can be socially responsible while being mentally free.

    That’s all I’m saying.

  45. You act as if I wallow in this discussion all the time. You’re mistaken. The frustration arises when AFs, AMs, and Asian America act in a reasonable fashion.

    The sheer lack of common sense is what makes the discussion anger inducing.

    See? You can’t seem to break the mentality that people who complain about this let it consume them.

  46. I’m not saying that. I’m just saying that if you don’t make peace with it internally, then all the external activism won’t solve the problem for you, on a personal level. It’s just advice, of course. If you don’t think that it applies to you, then I can make no argument that it does.

    But you’re saying that you’ve been isolate yourself from Asian females:

    if I suspect the AF demographic of trying to be exploitative, I simply distance myself from all of them.

    Surely that is something of an extreme reaction. Can you be sure that the anger doesn’t play some role in this?

  47. Masir

    It PAINS ME when I read or hear these kinds of stories, because I’ve experienced the same kind of crap countless times. I’m sure many Asian men have at one point or another.

    I think it is very important that fellow brothers open up and share their own experiences. Personal stories are very powerful. It is cathartic. You know you are not alone. Part of the reason why our condition, if you will, is so poorly understood is because there is a lack of narrative. We need more brothers setting aside their pride and ego which prevents them from sharing and opening up.

    And that really fucking sucks. You see, those who criticize Asian men as being whiny, bitter old souls are completely clueless. They fail to realize that we weren’t BORN resentful. We TURNED that way gradually over time. It was the classic case of, \OMFG. Not this shit again.\

    I believe that psychological effects of IR disparity should be medically categorized as a mental health condition that affects Asian-American men. It’s depression, plain and simple.

    I just saw an ad yesterday while I was waiting for the bus. It said: You would never say “Hey, it’s just cancer. Get over it.” Variations on “Get over it” and other simpleminded, meaningless platitudes from others is the most common response to our condition. In the Asian community, depression in general is stigmatized to such a degree that it is considered a shame. It is simply not talked about and therefore it doesn’t get treated. This the reason why even fellow Asians, whom you’d normally expect to understand this more than anyone else, try to suppress it. If you combine this with the added taboo of association with IR disparity issues, you get double-stigmatization.

    We can’t count on the medical establishment to try to understand this better. No one cares. We have to try to understand this thing ourselves. We have to help ourselves and reach out to others like us. No one else will.

    So after reading through all these posts recently and reviewing some of my own blogs I decided to cycle through my entire life and figure out at what point this whole IR dating disparity passed the threshold of fascination to annoyance to sheer contempt. I’ll probably post this on my blog in the near future just so I can empty out all of this negativity churning within, but looking back I can say it all started to unravel my junior year of college. The irony is as a child I truly embraced seeing interracial AF/WM pairings.

    For me it began during high school. I started having a vague awareness that something was wrong. It grew very intense during college.

    I think one of the most devastating thing about the psychological effects of the IR disparity is that for many of us, it pounded us hard during a highly vulnerable period in our development, adolescence and early adulthood. This is a time when a person is most impressionable. Things that happen during this period can affect you for the rest of your life.

    I also think there are distinct phases. I won’t pretend that I know everything about this, I am not a professionally trained therapist. But I think there are roughly three phases and I will try to outline it here:

    1. An Early Phase where the IR disparity goes from being, like you said, an “interesting and fascinating thing” as a child to a bothersome source of annoyance to you as an adolescent or young adult.

    2. An Intense Phase where it truly has a grip on you and you experience real anger, bitterness, anxiety, a crisis of confidence. It is aggravated by the fact that there is really no one to talk about this with, no support system whatsoever. You are utterly left alone to deal with this yourself. This phase can last many years. For me it lasted more than a decade. I am a hardened, scarred veteran of what is essentially an ongoing mental, emotional, and spiritual war.

    3. A Post-Anger Phase. This one is a blank. I think it depends on who you are as a individual in terms of your personality and character on how this phase unfolds.

    I’ll be real with it too. Its psychologically scarred me. I’ll be the first to acknowledge the breadth and depth of the impact its had on my spirit since I continue returning to this topic of discussion that’s beaten to a dead horse a million times over. Yet I still can’t seem to reach a state of peace or restitution within.

    Maybe I am the one to really blame.

    I know what you mean when you say you cannot reach a state of peace or restitution. I’ve already accepted the fact this will be a perpetual thorn in my side that will probably remain with me for the rest of my life.

    The other day I went to listen to a presentation given by Ross Jefferies (I hope that name means something to you, because it should). He said that “Suffering = Pain * Resistance”. He mentioned that he learned this from a Zen meditation teacher who taught him for many years. You suffer because you resist the pain. Don’t resist. Embrace it. The pain you experience caused by the effects of the IR disparity is part of who you are as an Asian-American man living at this point in time and space just as the slave experience is part of the African-American identity. That’s part of who you are now. If you fight it, you are fighting a part of yourself. We must humbly accept the fact that we are broken, in a broken world and NOT PRETEND that everything’s OK and that if only you wore nicer clothing, or just be more confident, or if you saw more Asian guys getting pussy on TV or the movies that your life will be better. These people who offer you these truly meaningless and useless platitudes are trying to gaslight your reality. You’ve TRIED to be just “more confident”, whatever the hell that means anyway. It doesn’t work.

    It’s OK to be angry. It’s OK to be pissed if you see an AF with a WM in the street. That means you are a MAN, with a set of balls, and you are not a Dickless Wonder. Don’t waste your energy trying to fight this part of yourself. Use it!

  48. You just can’t compare the Jessica Simpson line to the Louboutins! Le sigh! Like you, I either want the black or the nudes, and even that is a toss-up.

    Any thoughts on Anne Klein? I’m head over heels in love with Anne Klein shoes. All of them. I’d buy every pair A.K. comes out with if I had a closet big enough to store them!

  49. GASP! @#$%^&*********

    So sorry… lesson learned. Do not multi-task blog commenting. @#$%^&* Gah!! Byron!!! So sorry!!!!!!

    @#$@&$(*&#$)(*#$*()#$)(@@&#&#*#

  50. TZ,

    Ahhh….I think I’ll be kind and gracious.

    I think it’s very cute that an accomplished and award-winning woman such as yourself who’s published in top tier journals, been anthologized in academic texts, spoken on national platforms, and mentored young Asian woman also has the time to talk about Jessica Simpson clothing and Anne Klein shoes on multiple blogs.

    It’s good to know that you keep up with the latest fashion. ;)

  51. Urbs,

    I’m really sorry to hear about your friend who hanged himself. That’s got to be difficult. I am happy for your friends who either moved “back” to Asia or learned to go for White women. Have you read the book “Banana Boys” by Terry Woo? You may see some commonality with those characters.

    Your mom is just mom, not a race. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if you could have such relationships with other Asian women and see them as just people, rather than people of a certain gender and race?

    You have a trust fund set up for your kids. What if you have a daughter? What if ALL your hard earned money in that trust fund goes to…gasp…an Asian woman? And what if she marries a White guy? Would you love her any less? That’s kind of what I’m saying about rolling with the punches. You may have money and success, but you can’t control everything. I’ll bet Dick Cheney would shoot his lawyer if it meant having a daughter who wasn’t a lesbian, but he loves her anyway, despite his politics.

    Urbs, you’re in a very interesting situation. Because you own so much property, have lots of money, dress well, and drive a Mercedes (in Manhattan no less, which means your parking spot probably costs more than my mortgage), Asian women and others probably ARE looking for an angle when they talk to you. It’s possible that they ARE trying to take advantage of you. Haha…kinda reminds me of that joke that you aren’t paranoid if people really are out to get you. That’s part of the burden of success–people talk to you because of what you have.

    So it will be a bit harder for you to see people for who they are just because of how people react to you. Some people won’t be influenced by what you have, but most people are. Still, I think it’s worth it to look for good people whom you can see as individuals. Like it or not, these Asian women you’re ignoring do bring things to the table that your hot White girlfriend can’t. And vice versa of course. That’s why diversity is a good thing.

    I think it’s worth it to look for these good people. Try to find one good Asian woman. ONE (besides Mom, of course). That’s it. It will make you happier to know that the whole race isn’t bad and that you aren’t stereotyping someone because they happened to be born of a certain race and gender.

  52. Kobukson:

    It’s OK to be angry. It’s OK to be pissed if you see an AF with a WM in the street. That means you are a MAN, with a set of balls, and you are not a Dickless Wonder. Don’t waste your energy trying to fight this part of yourself. Use it!

    They had a Star Wars marathon on Spike last week. This sounds like that one scene: “Luuuuke….join the Dark Side….feel the anger….” George Lucas knew the good advice from the bad.

    Seriously–and this is directed probably most at MaSir, since I’m pretty certain that kobu won’t take my advice–do you think it’s good to be angry all the time? Angry and progressive are mutually exclusive. Be angry but don’t stay angry. In the end, it’s not as helpful as it may feel. It really impedes your growth as a person.

    Think about this, MaSir, anger is all about you. That’s true of your anger, my anger, etc. How can you learn from others if you’re always angry?

    Kobu wrote:

    TZ,

    Ahhh….I think I’ll be kind and gracious.

    I think it’s very cute that an accomplished and award-winning woman such as yourself who’s published in top tier journals, been anthologized in academic texts, spoken on national platforms, and mentored young Asian woman also has the time to talk about Jessica Simpson clothing and Anne Klein shoes on multiple blogs.

    It’s good to know that you keep up with the latest fashion.

    Well, given that TZ is a designer, I also should hope that she keeps up with the latest fashions! Don’t you? What do you do for a living? Don’t you talk about your job sometimes?

    There’s a huge industry in fashion in which Asian Americans do very well. Chloe Dao won Project Runway, that Chinese dude Jason something or other designed Michelle Obama’s dress, etc. I’m sure you’ve heard of Vera Wang. Urban likes nice clothes, and I respect nice clothes (though can’t always afford them), so we should be happy to support our Asian American designers who are producing the high quality stuff that so many Asian people buy.

    I know you’re a well read dude, Kobu. Have you read Tristes Tropiques by Claude Levi-Strauss? There’s a line in there somewhere that says something like, “Always dress well for the occasion.” My professor told me that that was the most important lesson that we would learn that year!

    So I’d add her interest in fashion to TZ’s long list of accomplishments. People, visit her site. And when she gets her first line out, and if you like her stuff, and if you want to do something nice for your girlfriend, buy a bag. Support AA designers!

    http://blog.tarynzhang.com/

    And if you’re a hard militant, support Asian designers who date or are married to Asian guys! (joke yo!)

  53. Kobu:

    Isn’t it a shame that women can’t be pigeon-holed into one-dimensional personalities? Can’t you wrap your mind around the possibility that an AF woman can read Davis, MacKinnon, and Crenshaw, prepare defense for a trial, cook dinner for her husband every night, sew a purse, AND admire a good pair of Louboutin high heels?

    And I wasn’t talking about Jessica Simpson’s clothing line; I was talking about her shoes. And Byron, it’s Jason Wu. Just saying.

    By the way, I also revert into a giddy 12-year-old schoolgirl when I see Hello Kitty.

  54. Urbs:

    I don’t reach out to AFs at all because I’ve managed to develop an extreme hostility towards them. Over the years, I’ve watched and observed their apathy towards this issue which has caused my feelings to fester into resentment. Interestingly enough, I’ve never experienced these situations first hand. Almost all of it was listening to other Asian men and from friends who have had their confidence absolutely decimated because of it.

    I can highly relate to this also. As you mentioned before, the trust is gone. It’s gotten to a point where even if I just see a random Asian woman in the street, I do not see a woman. I see a creature who is a reason why my torment exists. I don’t mean to make a moral equivalency between the psychological effects of the IR disparity and rape. But I think the parallels are there, its like the woman who was raped and afterward all men look like rapists. The trust is gone.

    We need more guys like you, urbs, to help validate and legitimize this issue. I’d rather have one guy like you than a 100 Asian women who claim to be on our side. They haven’t experienced what it’s like to be on the shit end of the IR disparity. Their defensiveness due to the fact that they are members of the very same group that perpetrates this mess and their natural inclination to be more faithful to their own POV distracts and obfuscates our discussions. I also believe that the pressure to be disgustingly PC by those who are more worried about possibly offending the paltry handful of Asian women who claim to be righteous is a great hindrance to free, open, and frank expression. They simply don’t get it, man. One might as well be a land animal trying to explain to a fish why drowning is bad.

  55. You have a trust fund set up for your kids. What if you have a daughter? What if ALL your hard earned money in that trust fund goes to…gasp…an Asian woman? And what if she marries a White guy? Would you love her any less? That’s kind of what I’m saying about rolling with the punches. You may have money and success, but you can’t control everything.

    I am not married and I don’t have any kids.

    And again, I don’t want to pretend to be some expert on this because I’m not. But since you brought this up, I’d like to have some input if I may.

    I sense that much of this has to do with “daddy issues”. Many of us grew up in the typical strict Asian families, where fathers were often hard traditionalists or disciplinarians and perhaps even a tyrant. Our fathers did not know how to show love or kindness and perhaps this is a critical thing that affects daughters more than sons and can set the stage for how she will relate to men (esp Asian men) later in life.

    Asian-American fathers have a moral obligation to try not to repeat the mistakes of our parents generations and be consciously aware of these kinds of issues when raising their kids. We want to equip future generations, both boys and girls, to have healthy, balanced and normal lives. That is the best thing you can do as a parent or parent-to-be.

  56. So it will be a bit harder for you to see people for who they are just because of how people react to you. Some people won’t be influenced by what you have, but most people are. Still, I think it’s worth it to look for good people whom you can see as individuals. Like it or not, these Asian women you’re ignoring do bring things to the table that your hot White girlfriend can’t. And vice versa of course. That’s why diversity is a good thing.

    Everyone seems to think my philosophy or way of thinking is twisted or absurd.

    What is normal, anyway?

    Jaewhan, we’ve reached a point where if someone like Kim Yun Jin or an Asian woman who calls herself an ‘activist’ turns out she’s actually hooked up with an Asian man (holy shit! no way!), we treat it like a God-given miracle. Ohh…look she’s actually MARRIED to an ASIAN GUY!!! PRAISE JESUS and Hallelujah! It’s a M I R A C L E! *tears*

    Is this normal? People, we are beyond any conventional notions of “normal” or “absurd” here.

    Urbs, I think someone mentioned in an earlier post the rhetorical question of “if you think Asian women don’t have your back, what makes you think a white woman would?”

    That’s a very good question. If someone asked me that question and I was in a relationship with a white woman, my response would be: “she’s with me. That’s more than enough.”

    In my admittedly limited experience however, I found that quite a few non-Asian women supported AMs and understood far better than one might initially guess.

    I think it’s worth it to look for these good people. Try to find one good Asian woman.

    Yes, urbs. Try to find that one good Asian woman. You should also try the Mega-ball Lotto. Hey, you never know.

  57. J: I know you’re a well read dude, Kobu. Have you read Tristes Tropiques by Claude Levi-Strauss?

    Actually, I’m not. But thank you for your compliment.

  58. Urban, you have a trust set up for your unborn children? Be mindful of the rule against perpetuities. This is not intended to be legal advice.

  59. “I sense that much of this has to do with “daddy issues”. Many of us grew up in the typical strict Asian families, where fathers were often hard traditionalists or disciplinarians and perhaps even a tyrant. Our fathers did not know how to show love or kindness and perhaps this is a critical thing that affects daughters more than sons and can set the stage for how she will relate to men (esp Asian men) later in life.”

    YIKES, that actually is coruscating analysis! That’s the best hypothesis I’ve heard to date, regarding the psychology of the disparity.

  60. Aware.

    Formation is currently not in a trust structure but merely earmarked to be in due time.

    I think Kobukson actually has a great point. I’ve met quite a few non-AF women who understand and can relate to the situation. This is why I believe that it’s not that AFs aren’t aware, it’s that they don’t care or they might actually come to the conclusion that they’ve been attacking AMs inadvertently.

    Or, the simple fact that they don’t want to give up their white male fetish (which is why this pairing is so popular; WM and AF have a fetish for each other, it’s not one sided).

    Just the other day, I was flirting around with a WF at work. She suddenly said \uRB4N, are you flirting with me?\ with a sly smile and wink. I replied \Yea, does it bother you?\

    She replied \Of course not. It’s just that in my entire life, no AM has ever flirted with me before. It felt….different.\ \As in bad?\ \No, as in great.\ I proceeded to have a 20 minute conversation about the topic and why it exists.

    See, I have also come to the conclusion that non-AF women have written AM off not because they’re not interested or attracted, it’s that they think AM are not interested in them so they don’t bother. I flirt often with non-AF women just in the hopes that this will change their perception and make an effort.

  61. TZ: Isn’t it a shame that women can’t be pigeon-holed into one-dimensional personalities? Can’t you wrap your mind around the possibility that an AF woman can read Davis, MacKinnon, and Crenshaw, prepare defense for a trial, cook dinner for her husband every night, sew a purse, AND admire a good pair of Louboutin high heels?

    Prepare defense for trial? As in being an attorney? But wait a minute…..I thought you were a fashion designer. And before that you had me thinking you are an award-winning activist-academic who’s published in top tier journals, been anthologized in academic texts, and a speaker on national platforms.

    My goodness gracious.

    Are you like a part-time brain surgeon also? Do you even have time to breathe? :)

  62. @TZ

    I did some Google searches and didn’t find any posts of you supporting Asian men besides on this site. Please direct me. I’d greatly appreciate it.

    @Kobukson

    I guess my visit to Japan after high school is probably when it all started. Seeing all these Japanese women falling head over heels over anyone white left me wondering what the big deal was.

    As I had mentioned earlier, something funny happened around my junior year of college. I took a trip up to San Francisco and Berkeley, CA and saw at least 10 AF/WM couples everyday, everywhere I went for 3 days. And these women weren’t ugly by any means but the men they were with weren’t average at best. I didn’t get it.

    One day, I received a voicemail from an anonymous female who till this day I still have no clue as to who she is. Anyway, the voicemail sounded as if she was talking to her friend on her cellphone without knowing that she was being recorded. This is what I vividly recall her saying,

    “Yeah…you know he was saying he likes me because I’m Asian. Yeah. Its funny because he’s white. He was telling me how much he liked Asian girls because of them being exotic and petite. Since we’re so small he was saying they’re fun to sleep with. Like he can toss Asian girls around really easily…”

    That was all I had to hear before I pressed end on my phone. I played it back 3 times just to make sure what I heard on my voicemail was real and I wasn’t dreaming, but by the 3rd playback, I felt betrayed.

    I felt betrayed because her voice did not reflect anything even remotely of disgust or discomfort. Quite the opposite in fact. The tone of her voice was filled with giggles and flattery as if she were basking in her exotification and sexual objectification of her race-gender by this white guy. At one point I THOUGHT I knew who it was but to this day I still am not 100% sure.

    It puzzled me, but it also made me realize what I was dealing with. That’s just the beginning. I’ll revisit more of these so I may bring this dark chapter in my life to a close and purge the emotional scars that have tainted me and shaped my ugly views of AF/WM relationships.

    Of course we’re angry. First they diss our kind calling us, “chink, gook, nip, jap, slanty-eyed, etc”, and now they want to go fucking our women left and right. As bad enough as it is, the biggest slap in the face to Asian men is even after all that YOU ASIAN BITCHES FLOCK TO THAT SHIT WITH OPEN ARMS.

    So yeah Kobukson and Urb4n, I completely understand and support the both of you. We as Asian men can galvanize a movement for change and turn this negativity that we, or our Asian bros. endured, into something positive for the advancement of ourselves.

    Please re-read the Smokin’ plege verse from NaS.

  63. What are your search terms? If it’s the name of the handbag business, then you’re probably not going to turn up much more than handbag business related stuff. Careful reading will turn up my real name. Or e-mail Byron. He knows.

  64. MaSir, you’re probably looking in the wrong places.

    TZ’s legal research and writing have been published by The Washington and Lee Journal of Civil Rights and Social Justice Law, Temple Journal of Science, Technology, and Environmental Law, Santa Clara Law Review, Cal. Western Law Review, China Law Digest and have been anthologized in casebooks. Her creative works have appeared in Fifth Wednesday Journal, Blue Earth Review, and SoMa Literary Review, among others. TZ is a corporate attorney who works in-house for a global investments firm and the founder of a designer handbags and accessories company, Taryn Zhang International.

    She’s bona fide.

    I’m not going to break internet etiquette, and out her by name, of course. But I did some nosing around (particularly in the environs of Santa Clara University) Here’s one of her quotes on ” sexual imperialism.”

    “The idea that a man’s preference for dating Asian women is harmless, even flattering, is a gross misconception, and one that makes it enormously difficult for unwanted sexual attention toward Asian women to be taken seriously.”

    I would certainly consider TZ to be a progressive intellectual.

  65. Haha! Kobukson, you’ve mentioned Culture Making, 2001 Space Odyssey, Martin and Malcolm and America (great book, btw), and the book of Esther in the Bible. I think you’re well read. You should be proud of that.

    You also made a joke comparing the odds of winning the Mega-ball to meeting a good Asian woman. This was right before King went to google and proved that you were talking to one in TZ all along.

    So I’m guessing you’re more of a liberal arts type rather than a statistician? :)

    Look, almost everything you all have mentioned is something that ALL Asian men in America experience. What Asian man hasn’t heard “I only date White guys” or “White guys are better looking” or “he’s good looking for an Asian man” all while seeing this in the media:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/10/the-secret-of-asian-american-scholastic-achievement/

    The world is unsympathetic. Even our own Asian men step on us and abuse us to make a profit:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/07/the-end-of-history-and-the-last-asian-man/

    It’s a bad situation. The question is how one deals with it. Stereotyping and being angry at all Asian women is one way. Embracing empathetic Asian women is another. You all have the power to decide which route you take.

    I think it’s okay to be angry. It’s okay to shout. It’s a bad situation.

    But why let it become permanent? That was my point of the original post–Asian men have that passion and loyalty to Asian women that most likely will never go away. From what I’ve read, NONE of the guys who have posted here are like Kenji. You all do care. Those PUAs who preach about a better life by bedding White women (and who prove their success by photoshopping White women into pictures with them–King, I’m never going to forget that!) also care. You all have that invisible chain around your neck, whether you like it or not.

    Why not translate this into empathy? All things being equal, wouldn’t you like to truly know positive Asian women rather than to (wrongly) believe that all Asian women are monsters inside? Wouldn’t you rather dwell on the positive ones rather than only knowing the Tans and Kingstons of the world?

  66. If you guys think that white women is the holy
    Grail, let me tell you this. White women can be
    just as bitchy as women of any other kind of race. They
    cheat on you in a heart beat. They’ll take your money and
    bitch at you. They can be snobs and stuck up.
    So if you guys want them then trad lightly or you’ll get
    bit. I’m white and I should know.

  67. But the same is true of White men, Sieg. When some Asian women look to White guys as some sort of matrimonial panacea, based on the images of western romance and gender equipoise, they also should tread lightly, lest they play the Sandra Bullock to someone’s Jesse James.

    The point is that all men and all women are equally capable of such poor judgement, or bad habits, or lack of character. Race does not prognosticate the person.

  68. Another thing that I don’t quite get is why you guys (Kobuk, Urbs, MaSir) keep making the case that it’s so few and far between to find a righteous AF anywhere. I’ve even heard the lottery comparison used. We’ve all acknowledged the obvious disparity, and it’s destructive psychological effects, but overstating it only perpetuates the hopelessness and further erodes the confidence among Asian guys. Why do that?

    U.S. Census 2006 figures show 41 % of Asian American-born women having White husbands, while 50 percent were married to Asian American men. That’s a high outmarriage number, but it still shows a higher
    number of American-born Asian women marrying Asian guys. And that doesn’t even count the non American-born AFs. Those don’t sound like lottery-chance numbers to me. Below are the Totals for married couples in the United States – 2006.

    Asian Husband/Asian Wife 2,493,000
    White Husband/Asian Wife 530,000

    All I’m saying is this idea that the VAST MAJORITY of Asian women are untrustworthy and unsupportive does not seem to square with the actual statistics. Am I misreading the numbers or not taking something into account that I should here?

    http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2006.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States#cite_note-census5-10

  69. King,

    I do not merely look at statistics, which is only a static snapshot of data at a particular point in time. I pay more attention to trends, patterns, attitudes, and behavior. I am a “big picture” person. Your 2006 data shows that 41% were married to white husbands. I’m not sure by whose measure 41% is considered “optimistic”. It sure ain’t mine. Also, the data does not take into account non-married relationships. If we factored that in also, we’d be seeing an even uglier picture. BTW, I hate statistics.

    The salient questions are: Is this declining? Has this reached an equilibrium? Or is it getting worse? In lieu of further data, it can be reasonably argued that as time passes and as the Asian-American community moves into the 3rd, 4th, 5th…nth generation and increasingly assimilates, the numbers of Asian-American women outdating/outmarrying will continue to rise.

    I’ve always said this in the past and I will say it again. The IR disparity will get worse before it gets better.

    This is trend that demands a response. The Ostrich Position is not a response. Throwing one’s hands up in the air and saying “Oh well, what can we do? Let’s just hope for the best” is not a response. Sitting on our hands with our thumb up our ass is not a response.

    The availability and supply of Asian women as potential mates for Asian men is effectively cut in half and may get worse in the future.

    If any nation cut the supply of a strategically important resource (ie oil, minerals, water) of another nation in half, that would be considered an act of war.

    The law of supply and demand states that if the supply of a commodity diminishes while demand stays even or goes up, the price of that commodity goes up. The “price” of attaining a woman is the man’s earning potential. The average Asian-American man will have to earn more money to marry an average Asian-American woman. This will lead to much heightened class division in the Asian-American community. Class division AND the gender divide, folks. It’s not a very pretty picture by any measure.

    We Asian-American men are facing an extraordinary Darwinian challenge that demands change. The most salient point that I am trying to hammer through to my fellow brothers, is that we have to lower our demand for Asian women. We cannot continue thinking in our old ways. We have to alter our thinking radically. We must “out-source” and consider that a serious and viable option. We must also be much more competitive in the dating marketplace and consider all our options in making that happen. If you do not change, you WILL be eliminated out of the gene pool.

    Sentimentality will get you nowhere and it can even pull you back. My message is not one of hopelessness or doom. It is a synthesis of many years of observing the IR dialectical process. And it is also a warning. But if we step up to the plate and confront this challenge head-on, I believe we will prevail. Will you be able to step up to the plate or will you fall through the cracks? That is entirely up to the individual.

  70. 41% of 2nd generation+ Asian American women marry with Whites?

    Damn. I didn’t realize it was so high.

    Here’s some more analysis of the issue. To be frank, some of his findings are framed in terms of difficult to read statistical jargon, but there were some interesting conclusions:

    “Further, this model shows that Korean women have a White intermarriage rate of almost 61%. That may seem unbelievable but in this particular instance, the numbers do not lie.”

    “At first glance, these statistics may seem rather unbelievable since they tend to show very high levels of intermarriages, especially among Koreans and Filipinos. Many readers will undoubtedly argue that these numbers do not correspond to their own personal experiences and observations.”

    Unmarried Asian Men Living with . . .
    Asians 63.4
    Whites 26.5
    Blacks 1.0
    Hispanics/Latinos 5.5

    Unmarried Asian Women Living with . . .
    Asians 45.2
    Whites 39.7
    Blacks 5.0
    Hispanics/Latinos 5.8
    Source: 2000 Census (Table 2)

    In Table 5.6 (page 49) of the study, they found that when it came to the dating preferences of White women, their first preference was to date a White man, which is not suprising nor uncommon. But their data showed that the White women in the study would also consider dating men or color, but only if he made more money than a comparable White man, as follows:

    * Latino American men: + $77,000
    * African American men: + $154,000
    * Asian American men: + $246,000

    http://www.asian-nation.org/interracial2.shtml

    To me, this last factoid is most damning. White women would graciously consider dating a man of color … but only if he made a hella lot more money than a comparable White guy.

    That’s called White Supremacy, and this issue is the 1000 lb gorilla that many people avoid in debates about IR.

    “White is Right” in marriage and dating.

    And yet many people still repeat the hilarious lie that “Love is Color Blind.”

  71. @ Kobuk
    “I do not merely look at statistics, which is only a static snapshot of data at a particular point in time. I pay more attention to trends, patterns, attitudes, and behavior. I am a “big picture” person. Your 2006 data shows that 41% were married to white husbands. I’m not sure by whose measure 41% is considered “optimistic”. It sure ain’t mine. Also, the data does not take into account non-married relationships. If we factored that in also, we’d be seeing an even uglier picture. BTW, I hate statistics.”

    My presentation of U.S. Census figures here was not meant to convey optimism, it was meant to combat the mythology that Asian women who date and then marry Asian men are rare. That is not true.

    I hate statistics too, but I detest anecdotes even more.

    “In lieu of further data, it can be reasonably argued that as time passes and as the Asian-American community moves into the 3rd, 4th, 5th…nth generation and increasingly assimilates, the numbers of Asian-American women outdating/outmarrying will continue to rise.”

    In lieu of further data, ANYTHING can be argued. We don’t have a full understanding of all the sociology variables involved here, therefore we cannot predict the future trend. It may be at equilibrium, or in decline, we just don’t know.

    This is trend that demands a response. The Ostrich Position is not a response. Throwing one’s hands up in the air and saying “Oh well, what can we do? Let’s just hope for the best” is not a response. Sitting on our hands with our thumb up our ass is not a response.

    Of course you must respond! Of course… no one is saying that you shouldn’t. All I’m saying is that since there are Asian women who feel the same way about the problem, that you might respond to it together with them. Maybe some people would listen to Asian women who would not respond to Asian men (and vice versa) Is that really so far fetched?

    “The law of supply and demand…” only applies in a closed system with limited resources. That does not account for an influx of new Asian immigrants, or for guys going back to countries of ancestral origin to find a wife, or to outdating.

    Again, I’m only saying that you can fight this with your likeminded Asian sisters at your side. Why are you opposed to this?

    @ Larry

    That’s outrageous! I don’t make $154,000!!! Argh!

  72. I’m gonna write my Congressman. In light of that story and those salary requirements, we minority men could all use a bailout!

  73. @Larry: You guys and the Fighting 44s have been touting:
    white women! White women! Are headed for a major dissapointment
    when you find out the true nature of the beast.
    Not to mention their backward and racist family that you may have to deal with
    And if she’s really pretty, some white guys might resent you for taking our women. You might get harrassed. Please excuse my spelling, I probably shouldn’t try out for “Are you Smarter than a 5th grader”.

  74. @King:

    interesting research, thanks for digging that out. I do remember looking at some of that stuff awhile ago and I could’ve sworn that there was also some stats showing that AM’s who married AF’s tended to marry “down” in socioeconomic status. In other words, their partners were more likely to be foreign born and not as well educated as their US counterparts. by contrast, AF’s who married out tended to raise their economic status.

    Now don’t hold me to it, but I thought I saw that somewhere from US census stats. And again, stats can be interpreted in a lot of ways. But if true, that means American born AM’s don’t even have a shot at American born AF’s who are on the same level?

    @ my brothers,

    like jaewhan said, it’s okay to be angry. no one will deny you what you feel. We ARE angry because you’re right—most often, when you see the AF/WM couple out on the street, it’s a huge slap in the face to us. Especially when there is no counter balance for it. And the big kick in the nuts is that the media reinforces it over and over. From movies to TV commercials….implicit in that is, “hey, AF/WM is okay, it’s the norm!”

    Where is the AM presence? It doesn’t exist. We are the new invisible men. We don’t matter and to some degree, you might very well be right about the social Darwinism aspect. One thing that pisses me off about China is their adoption policies. They let white people adopt all their female babies….and guess what? The cycle begins all over. A generation of AF’s, with no clear connection to their heritage, being raised by white couples, who will grow up to marry WM’s. Where are the AM’s in their lives? Where is our presence? And China is creating an alienated class of AM’s in their own country with no one to marry.

    This should bother all of us because at some point, there isn’t going to BE any Asian American community or culture. And this is where I differ. If we all date/marry out, just which culture is absorbing whom in the US? Or Canada?

    First and foremost comes my happiness as a human being and that transcends race/color. Second, I date people that I like or with people I have some compatibility. I just don’t think in terms of power balances and social Darwinism so that it motivates me and drives me. But I don’t close the door to AF’s as some of you do. Trust me, I understand where you’re coming from based on your experiences. Yet that seems extreme for me. But if it works for you and that is what makes you intrinsically happy, go forth. I’m not hung up on AF’s either but neither am I one to paint with a broad brush and take up an extreme position that AF’s can’t ever be good, can’t ever be supportive, aren’t trust worthy. Like a lot of life, some are, some aren’t.

    To me, extremism creates a skewed perception and you start becoming taliban-like. I’m not saying you guys are becoming taliban like, but if you let the anger over take you and become permanent, like jaewhan said, well, that isn’t a path I want to see guys on. Pursue your happiness with whatever strategy that works for you, but find a time and place for your anger, is all I’m saying.

    oh, yeah, the thought struck me that with Sig’s latest postings about white women, i had to laugh when i thought of him being the different side of the same coin, where upon you guys are slagging on AF’s!

  75. Well, Like Kobuk says, “This is trend that demands a response.” Urbs and MaSir and even Mojo agree that outdating is a big part of that response. I, and others, have agreed on that single point. And just to reiterate, if there is some Asian guy out there who’s only problem is that he’s afraid to reach out across the ethnic divide, he should BY ALL MEANS go for it, and stop wasting time. But that’s not the same thing as the wholesale “ditch the Asian Female” mantra that we heard elsewhere in this thread. It’s simply widening one’s options beyond ONLY dating AFs. More options is better than less options, no?

    However, I believe that some of the logic put forth, thus far, for the anti-AF argument has some possible flaws. Supply and demand has been used as a model several times, but supply and demand is only one of many variables that dictate market behavior. Another variable is style/trend. For example, supply and demand were in play in 1983 when Cabbage Patch Kids Dolls were first introduced to the market. People were paying 4 times the MRP for them from private parties when the stores ran out of stock. However, several seasons later, the Cabbage Patch Dolls simply went out of style—they got old. At that point, it didn’t really matter that there were plenty of dolls available (Supply) at very low prices, nobody wanted them because they were simply played out. (No Demand!)

    What I’m wondering about is what if Asian guys did decide to try and devaluate Asian female stock en mass by eliminating them as dating options—the idea being that at some point AF stock would drop due to lack of AM demand and a rise in AM stock price due to a diminished supply of availability to AFs and other factors. Then at some future point there would be a dialogue… a renegotiation based on the corrected market rates?

    Hmmm…

    But what if it didn’t work that way? What if this new divide just caused a continuing and reciprocal cycle of bitterness and mistrust? What if things got worse before they became… well, horrible? (not better) What if Asians, male and female simply got more and more entrenched in the idea that the other side was the enemy, bolstered by stories of continuing rejection and betrayal now on BOTH sides of the gender divide?

    What I’m saying is that there is really no guarantee that there will EVER be some amicable sit down, in which Asian females reassess your stock price, and admit, “Oh, we were so wrong all along about your value, we’re now ready to negotiate with you as equals.” My fear is that an escalation in the gender war may actually only bolster the Kingstonian views on Asian male mistrust in some Asian females.

    In my experience, the calculus of revenge (or whatever you ant to call it) rarely works out quite as it does in one’s head. Many a high school boyfriend, after being dropped by his sweetheart, has plotted to “raise his personal stock” by going after a cheerleader, a homecoming queen, or an college woman, in hopes of “I’ll show her!” But honestly, how often does that really work? Either he doesn’t get the trophy girl because he’s obviously so obsessed with showing up his old flame, or if he does manage it, it turns out that the old girlfriend doesn’t even care anymore.

    She’s simply moved on.

    Just something to consider. Every coin has two sides, and you can’t always predict which side it will land on.

  76. It has been awhile, my friends, since I’ve posted any comments on this here blog, though I have been following everyday. I have been specifically avoiding posting on the AM/AF and IR topic. For many reasons, I just don’t care anymore. We continue to discuss with, sometimes, an interesting view that no one has voiced before. It hasn’t changed. It won’t change. And, frankly, if this is how it’s going to be, then F it. WE just can’t keep complaining about this and do nothing. As it has been pointed out many times, we need to be happy with ourselves and do the best we can to make the appropriate changes for said happiness.

    I’m tired of worrying/thinking about the disparity of dating as an AM. I just don’t care anymore what AFs prefer, or women for that matter. I have my goals in life that I want to achieve and if I meet someone during my pursuit then all the better. Dating is a pain in the ass anyway.

    I have dated Caucasian women all my life. This is because I grew up in the Midwest. There weren’t many AF, if any, in my high school and just a hand full in college. I don’t prefer Caucasian women. I don’t prefer AFs. I don’t have a preference. I’ll date anything female, with a heartbeat, and attractive. I say date all types of women then settle down with the one that you jive with the best. The idea of homogeneity, of any kind, makes me a wee nervous. Let’s not put that sort of pressure on us or AFs.

    Here is an example why we shouldn’t marry ourselves to one group of women. I just moved to the Bay Area from Chicago. I thought “great! the Mother Land away from the Mother Land!!”. This would be a great opportunity to diversify my dating experience. Admittedly, I was looking to date an AF because I thought that my ex-girlfriends didn’t get me or my family to some degree and an AF would. So, the goal has been set.

    I moved into a new small apartment complex where the neighbors are friendly and pretty close. I had met most of them with the exception of a new AF across the way. However, a friend of mine (Caucasian) visiting from Chicago met her while walking my dog. He told me that she was pretty cute and was really friendly. So naturally I was certain that we at least would be friendly neighbors. Not so fast.

    After my friend’s visit ended I actually met her, if you can call it that, while talking to my next door neighbor. She apparently was in his apartment while I was talking to him (Caucasian) in the front yard. He told me that the new neighbor was there and called for her to introduce us. When I turned around I expected her to come out and shake my hand, at the very least say “hi” in person. What she did was not only ridiculous but also appalling. Rather than come outside like a normal person, she stands in the doorway exposing only half of her face looking at me without even a wave. I waved and greeted her as I would anyone else.

    I passed this off as strange. But a few nights later I was outside talking to the same next door neighbor and she walks by. She cheerily greeted him and completely ignored me as though I were a doorstop. That’s some straight up racist crap if I’ve ever seen it and I’ve seen plenty.

    I have to contrast this with the numerous women that have said “hello” to me while I was walking the dog or dining out. A colleague’s new neighbor called out to me from her garage to say hi and ask how I was doing. She was CAUCASIAN!!

    So, African, Caucasian, Asian, Latino, or Martian if you hot and friendly I’m willing to take you to dinner then serve you desert. Attraction can be based of preference but to fully live life you gotta open your eyes to the many flavors and senses the world has to offer, fellas.

    I’m done with this topic.

  77. Think of it this way fellas. I just read this quote somewhere and thought I’d share it with you,

    “We asians are the new millenium niggas except we can’t even rap about it!”

  78. King:

    But what if it didn’t work that way? What if this new divide just caused a continuing and reciprocal cycle of bitterness and mistrust? What if things got worse before they became… well, horrible? (not better) What if Asians, male and female simply got more and more entrenched in the idea that the other side was the enemy, bolstered by stories of continuing rejection and betrayal now on BOTH sides of the gender divide?

    You bring up a very fair point.

    I call this “Mutually Assured Destruction”. At some point, one side will have to back down in order to avert total destruction. If neither side doesn’t back down, the Asian-American community is destroyed.

    I believe AMs should adopt the new alpha strategy that I am advocating, reject the old beta strategy, and up the ante on this. Then the ball will be on the other side. The only way they will get it is if they got a taste of their own bitter medicine. That is the only way they will truly understand what is at stake here. If at that point AFs do not change their mentality, decide that AMs leaving them in droves is not something worth talking about and make no movements for reconciliation, then so be it.

    The old beta strategy, which is something that AMs have been all along, has been proved to be a folly. It only perpetuates the status quo, which is that AFs get to enjoy benefits at the expense of AMs.

    AMs have absolutely nothing to lose but stand only to gain. Fuck worrying about the “community”. A community where one side suffers because of what the other side is doing is not a community worth preserving in the first place.

  79. Pingback: Asian Women and the Invisible Chain « big WOWO | Sawadate Hot Asian Women

  80. A MAD solution???

    Well, fair enough, but in my ethnic community we seem to rely more on awareness and of course social pressure.

    http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2007/08/10/browns-wall-of-shame-in-inter-racial-dating/

    And then there’s the case of Wesley Snipes, who had a fairly promising career until he said some stupid stuff about getting along with Black women. He’s now a straight to DVD actor and still gets comments like this every time he does a project.

    From Black Planet
    “Sorry Wesley. He got SO MUCH support from Black women, but I’ve never seen him with one. Maybe Halley Berry, but he beat her azz. Here’s one sista that won’t make you pockets phat or your head any bigger.”

    From Pop Machine
    “Wesley had the support of a lot of minority females until he dissed them. That’s when he lost of big chunk of support and fans. So I don’t feel sorry for anyone that hates the skin color of their own mother. Good luck with those taxes.”

    Well, you get the picture…

    Should I even mention Tiger Woods?

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/12/06/2009-12-06_tiger_woods_alienates_black_community_with_white_lovers.html

    The point is clearly not that a Black celeb can’t have a White wife/girlfriend, but Blacks in general get pretty hostile if you make a point of having an obvious White fetish OR if you get caught talking down the opposite sex.

  81. Drizzle,

    I understand how IR disparity discussions can be weary. But the reason why it still remains a compelling issue is because many brothers continue to be deeply impacted by it even as we speak. You are absolutely right, we can’t keep complaining about it and do nothing. What we’re attempting to do here is to evolve the discussion into a new level.

    Discussing it doesn’t mean we’re “complaining and doing nothing”. We’re also reaching out to fellow brothers, who may be lurking out there listening in on all of this or others who’ve not yet heard our message but will in the future when they stumble across it.

    Even though you say you are sick and tired of it and don’t care, you did have your input which means you do care to a certain extent. Even though we come from different backgrounds, we are all united by a common struggle. AMs have to work as a team under a coherent strategy. Apathy is one of our greatest enemies and a reason why things don’t improve.

    I sense there is a similarity between your background and Mojorider. You both grew up in areas where there were few Asians. You have had experience in dating non-Asian women. Guys like you have a role to play also. You can help dispel the Myth that non-Asian women are not interested in Asian men and that doing so is like climbing Mt Improbable. This Myth seems to have a grip on so many of our fellow brothers and prevents them from taking Action. This Myth is also the reason why so many are stuck in the perpetual limbo of “complain but do nothing”.

    My role is to analyze the problem and try to formulate a strategy and a course of action. Guys like you can provide the additional insight, inspiration so that the brother will be motivated and empowered to take the leap of faith into real action.

  82. @dizzle

    “I’m tired of worrying/thinking about the disparity of dating as an AM. I just don’t care anymore what AFs prefer, or women for that matter. I have my goals in life that I want to achieve and if I meet someone during my pursuit then all the better. Dating is a pain in the ass anyway.”

    I agree with what you say. I’m tired of this discussion as well and it’s also what I meant in another post that maybe there’s too much paralysis by analysis. If this shit is constantly on your mind, you’ll never act. Too much psychic baggage. And I want to reiterate my point, and your view supports my stance, is that it never should matter who you find attractive and want to date.

    My experiences might be a bit different from others but I have never been hung up on AF’s, waiting forlornly for the one I could partner up with. Love—the love you’ve always missed and needed— doesn’t have to come with an Asian face. This is America, dammit; you can be, do anything you fucking want short of breaking the law. For the AM’s who are so stuck on AF’s, get some confidence, go forth and live life. The entire world, and the many women in it, should be your world to explore, not just your own community.

    “I don’t prefer Caucasian women. I don’t prefer AFs. I don’t have a preference. I’ll date anything female, with a heartbeat, and attractive. I say date all types of women then settle down with the one that you jive with the best.”

    Amen, brother. It’s about compatibility.

    @ kobukson

    “I call this “Mutually Assured Destruction”. At some point, one side will have to back down in order to avert total destruction. If neither side doesn’t back down, the Asian-American community is destroyed….AMs have absolutely nothing to lose but stand only to gain. Fuck worrying about the “community”. A community where one side suffers because of what the other side is doing is not a community worth preserving in the first place.”

    Bro’, I never thought there really was an Asian American community to begin with. Maybe I’m wrong, but I always felt we were too fractured, too varied to have any real cohesiveness.

    “I believe AMs should adopt the new alpha strategy that I am advocating, reject the old beta strategy, and up the ante on this. Then the ball will be on the other side. The only way they will get it is if they got a taste of their own bitter medicine. That is the only way they will truly understand what is at stake here.”

    I’m all for you giving confidence to those AM’s who need to find a direction. But I dunno if AF’s really care all that much to begin with. At least not the second and third generation AF’s. They’re already accepted into the greater white mainstream culture whereas us AM’s aren’t. Perhaps I’m wrong but I just get a sense that they’re not even paying attention, and you can’t argue with someone who is self absorbed and isn’t paying attention. Hell, they don’t even know there’s a cultural genocide going on to render us completely invisible and irrelevant.

    “I sense there is a similarity between your background and Mojorider. You both grew up in areas where there were few Asians. You have had experience in dating non-Asian women. Guys like you have a role to play also. You can help dispel the Myth that non-Asian women are not interested in Asian men and that doing so is like climbing Mt Improbable. This Myth seems to have a grip on so many of our fellow brothers and prevents them from taking Action. This Myth is also the reason why so many are stuck in the perpetual limbo of “complain but do nothing”.

    I’ll share some my personal life with you. My old man was a WWII army veteran. He was part of the occupation forces in Berlin. I heard him joke around about having a German girlfriend during the war way before he met my mom. It wasn’t until after he died that I was going thru some of his things and found his old WW II photos. There he was, a lean, handsome Chinese American soldier with his German girlfriend—AND her family. I can only guess from the old photos that he was close to her and her family.

    I’ve had cousins who grew up in white bread Ann Arbor, MI in the 60’s (granted, Ann Arbor is the last liberal bastion in that state). All of them dated white exclusively. Two are married to white women, the female cousin is not married, and one is an ex-patriot who lived in Paris for close to 20 years and found a Korean female artist that he’s now partnered up with and now living in Seoul with her. So it’s bullshit that non-Asian women have zero interest in dating AM’s.

    I will say that sometimes it’s not so easy, depending on where you live, but you have to find places where you can succeed (a diverse and open climate definitely helps, bars and nightclubs aren’t such great places for starting relationships) and have a chance at showing who you are—the force of your own personality. And that’s where self improvement comes in. Are you doing things that make you an interesting person outside of work? Can you talk about a variety of things? Do you have funny stories to share?

    And if some of you believe this Myth, then you folks aren’t getting out in the real world enough to know one way or the other. Not only are you not trying, you’re not even living life. You don’t want to live a life of regrets, thinking back, “Well, maybe I should’ve tried doing this…” Get out there and go forth!

    kobu, hope that helps some….

  83. @ MaSir Jones

    “We asians are the new millenium niggas except we can’t even rap about it!”

    That’s just straight ignant

  84. But I dunno if AF’s really care all that much to begin with. At least not the second and third generation AF’s. They’re already accepted into the greater white mainstream culture whereas us AM’s aren’t. Perhaps I’m wrong but I just get a sense that they’re not even paying attention, and you can’t argue with someone who is self absorbed and isn’t paying attention. Hell, they don’t even know there’s a cultural genocide going on to render us completely invisible and irrelevant.

    Mojo, I agree with you 1000%.

    The idea that there are Righteous Asian Babes who “have our backs” is largely a mirage in a desert of indifference by AMs who cannot discern wishful thinking from reality.

  85. “The idea that there are Righteous Asian Babes who ‘have our backs’ is largely a mirage in a desert of indifference by AMs who cannot discern wishful thinking from reality.”

    “Even though 50% of American-born Asian Women still marry Asian men.”

    Don’t forget to add that part.

  86. Fellas, my fellas.

    Should we be pressuring AFs into dating us or looking us any differently? If so, I wouldn’t even know how to do that. I think that the mainstream media shining a spotlight on AF/WM relationships does no favors for AF/AM relationships. But let’s look at the big picture. The rise in IR matings is good for everyone. We want progress towards inter-cultural relations. The more WE all mingle the closer we move towards understanding the cultural differences and therefore we increase tolerance. We want equality and to be looked at as men without a modifier. Is this not our goal? This has happened with AFs to some degree. They are accepted as desirable, datable women. Sure there are quite a bit of “rice-chasers” out there but the ultimate goal is for AM to be the object of desire as well. If you met a woman that was a “rice-chaser” would you complain about her fetish for AM? I would bet not.

    We’re missing the progress that is occurring with AM in the media. These days it’s hard to turn on the tele without seeing an Asian face. And yes, I mean men as well. Let’s take a tally: Daniel Dae-Kim – hit TV show; John Cho – engaged to marry an African-American women while fathering the child of a Caucasian woman in Flashforward; Daniel Henney in some crap medical drama; The Jabbawockeez and Quest Crew showed the nation that not only do we have rhythm but we look good showing it off; Ichiro and the numerous Asian faces in baseball; Yao (despite his injury risks) is a badass CENTER for the Rockets; Ed Wang was just drafted in the fourth round by the Bills to play Tackle; Patrick Chung – the half-Chinese half-Jamaican safety plays for the Patriots; Lyoto Machida – former light-heavyweight champ. There’s progress thanks to these folks (and more) for us AM. Is it fast enough? No. Is the playing field level now? Not even close. However, we should take the victories where we can and learn from these gents on how to improve ourselves and press forward. Discussing it is great but it negatively affects our psyche and attitudes if we obsess about it.

    Siegfried, you’re right – women are women and no matter their cultural background some are gonna break your heart and some will be loyal partners.

    Mo Bettah, on the surface the “We asians are the new millenium niggas except we can’t even rap about it!” comment is ignorant. But when we think about it the outlet to voice our frustrations in the mainstream is not as welcoming for Asian artists. So there is a point to that comment. It’s not stereotyping African-Americans at all. We have become the Black Male in the sense that mostly negative stereotypes follow us throughout life. I don’t think it was offensive at all.

    Mojo Rider, great points and thanks for your comments. Keep doing what you do and redefine the AM stereotype. Keep on keeping on, brotha.

    -dzl

  87. That is a pretty big list Dizzle. These guys aren’t superstars yet nor are they household names besides Yao Ming. Nevertheless, I support them 100%.

    There’s one star who I think has made a tremendous impact on the image of AA men and that is megastar K-Pop singer Rain. I wish he was coupled with a white girl in Ninja Assassin and they sexually ravaged each other on screen, but we all know why Hollywood wouldn’t want to show that. I’m sure Megan Fox wouldn’t have mind in that role.

  88. @ dizzle

    Interracial dating and marriage do NOT necessarily cause “progress towards inter-cultural relations” and they don’t equal racial justice or equality.

    That is a common fallacy.

    For instance, a significant portion of Black people in the USA have always had some European ancestry in their background, and significant numbers of White people have always had non-White blood in them.

    Hell, the very category of LATINO is a mixed race identity, encompassing people of White European, Indigenous, Black, or Mestiza background.

    But this mixed race reality doesn’t change America’s racist criminal injustice system where a disproportionate number of African Americans are arrested, sentenced, and imprisoned.

    Nor does it alter the rising ride of American racist xenophobia towards “illegal immigrants” (aka Latinos), as evidenced by things such as Arizona’s racial profiling law SB 1070–which a majority of Americans support?

    Even noted Southern segregationist Strom Thurmond had a Black mistress and fathered a mixed race child with her. But that didn’t affect his racist political views one whit.

    Racial equality and justice on a broad societal level will not be achieved through whom you sleep with or marry.

    They are achieved through political activism and struggle.

  89. Diz,

    Nice to see your comment, man! I remember when you picked out Ed Wang as someone who was going to make big changes. Nice pick!

    Great story, btw. Man, I really need to make a trip out to the Bay Area. Everyone is from there! I hope things get better with the other AF. Remember, in the Bay Area, there are lots of them, so there are bound to be some good apples!

    By the way, even though it’s a topic that gets discussed like crazy, I do have one more IR post coming up, probably in the next week or two. I hope you’ll enjoy that one–it’s not so much just IR, but rather more media related, possibly even somewhat related to that whole idea of AM and understanding our stories.

  90. Mojo,

    Great stories about your family! Man, that must have been awesome to find those old WWII pictures of your dad. It’s funny because my grandfather fought in WWII (I blogged about him here), and we NEVER ask our heroes from that era about their stories. There are so many stories that we don’t know.

    King,

    Thanks for the links.

    Kobukson,

    You wrote:

    A community where one side suffers because of what the other side is doing is not a community worth preserving in the first place.”

    As King’s links above demonstrate, I think it’s true that in ALL communities the actions of one side affect the other. The Chinese have a saying that “women hold up half the sky.” No matter what happens we’re affected by what they do. Granted things have not been so good thanks to people like Tan, Kingston, Yeo, and whoever else, but it’s natural to let men be men and women be women and seeing them meet somewhere in the middle.

  91. I thought Mao said that. Regardless, it doesn’t matter. You have a choice; you can live in a fortune cookie world or you can face reality. Ironically enough, that example you provided is exactly why communism doesn’t work.

    Why should one side pull all the weight while the other side slacks off?

    I eat the same no matter how hard I work so I might as well not work. Let someone else do it.

  92. To end my participation in this conversation, it looks like many of the detractors of my opinion can’t entirely emphasize with my experiences. They might have an idea but cannot fully relate.

    It’s like a cold glass of water. I can tell you it’s cold and you may have an idea of how cold it is but until you actually drink from the glass, you will never know how cold it really is.

  93. Well that’s one way to end an argument or debate. If after multiple tries one cannot get the other party to agree, then declare that the other party “just doesn’t get it.” “You just don’t understand me.”

    I’ve tried that one on Hubby before when we get into squabbles. I try to sell my point, but if he still holds fast to his, I start whining, “You just don’t know what I’m going through! You don’t get it. You just don’t understand!” To that he always says, “Why do girls always resort to that? Man up and spar back with some dignity, please.”

  94. Sorry, one last thing, King. You’re still assuming that I wish for the AA “community” survive. I don’t. I am saying that AMs should reject the community and just let it die.

    It’s tiring to see a 16 year old dog with cancer struggling. If you had any heart, you’d bash it over the head with a shovel and end it.

  95. TZ,

    I have replied back and forth but it’s pretty clear you cannot accept my argument. Thus, I have no choice but to implament it without your approval.

    I’m tired of AM being the one to bend; AFs need to bend every once in a while. So far, you’ve done none of that.

  96. Urbs,

    Mao said it, but he was quoting an old Chinese saying.

    Why should one side pull all the weight while the other side slacks off?

    Because the side pulling the weight is attracted to the other side?

    The prices are higher at the non-community store than the community store, and for many people–not all, but many–the community store sells a product that works better on a personal level.

    Also, one side is not pulling all the weight. IR aside, people like Vicki Shu Smolin and Helen Zia (who is a lesbian and I have no idea who she’s married to) have done great things.

    But I think the key factor is the attraction. In economic terms, how do you lower demand? The only way to lower demand is to demonstrate a defect in the product. The defect that people keep pointing out is the refusal of AF to date AM, but if you keep asking and one says yes, then that defect isn’t there, right? After all, you’re dating an individual, not an entire demographic.

  97. The community store works “best” because you refuse to let go of why it works better. Also, how can it work better if it’s causing so much work in the first place? That, in itself, makes it worse.

    You are asking AMs to continue to try to preserve Asian culture. I am saying to let it go. Let it fade into nothingness. Why not? AFs have. They have proven that because the AMs main value added is a joint understanding of Asian culture. This disparity proves that the sole value added we have is not worthy of consideration. Or, at least, it’s not worth the effort. Therefore, the entire notion of an Asian America is already dead.

    I just want you to stop performing CPR on a corpse.

    Additionally, the point is to erode buyer confidence with who you don’t want to buy their products. If a supplier refuses to sell to YOU, you don’t sit that as a defect. What you do is you get his other buyers to refuse to buy as well.

  98. All experience is relative, and in the end, the only perspective that we truly have is our own. But I think that a lot of people agree with your overall assessment. I also think that a lot of people agree with you that Asian guys should go forth and date non-Asian women. The only disagreement is on whether ALL Asian women should be seen as the enemy.

    I don’t understand how you and Kobukson can look at the U.S. Census statistics and continue comparing the chances of finding a righteous AF to lotteries, or lightning strikes. The IR outdating is obviously really, really, high (that’s a given). But nevertheless, when 50% of American-born AFs are still marrying Asian guys that is simply NOT a lottery! Do you know of any lottery with a 50% chance of winning???

    It’s clearly a gross overstatement to say that “all” or even “most” AFs have abandon Asian men. The figures simply do not support that. Does it make sense to just ignore these numbers and continue repeating the same thing over and over?

  99. Dizzle wrote:

    “We’re missing the progress that is occurring with AM in the media. These days it’s hard to turn on the tele without seeing an Asian face. And yes, I mean men as well.”

    True, I think it has been noted that this a positive step, but we need to see it become permanent in Hollywood and in sports. I think this is how we can sort of influence the culture and our images….and all the more reason to let the major networks that we ARE watching and we ARE taking note and that we approve the multi-dimensional characters of AM’s on TV. And if they screw up and revert to stupid and tired stereotypes, they will hear from us as well.

    King wrote:

    “All experience is relative, and in the end, the only perspective that we truly have is our own. But I think that a lot of people agree with your overall assessment. I also think that a lot of people agree with you that Asian guys should go forth and date non-Asian women. The only disagreement is on whether ALL Asian women should be seen as the enemy.”

    I was going to post something to that effect, but you said it for me. Logically, I can’t dimiss all AF’s as untrustworthy, sell outs, etc…yes, you might see it yourself and it validates your view, but that holds true only for your experience.

    urbs wrote:

    “You are asking AMs to continue to try to preserve Asian culture. I am saying to let it go. Let it fade into nothingness….., the entire notion of an Asian America is already dead.”

    You know, as bleak as it sounds, I’ve often thought about this as well. Is there really such a thing as Asian American culture? I don’t know if it really exists. I do see the younger generation of kids being more politically active and engaged more in identity politics, that’s great. I saw really none of that growing up. I’ve wondered whether or not we’re caught in some sort of limbo, leading to some alienation. We’re assimilated and integated into the overall white dominated culture. We’re kind of accepted but yet not really accepted by the dominant culture but some of us are far removed from our immigrant past. So what roots do we have to fall back upon? Especially if you can’t speak the language, don’t know the customs, etc…there’s a bi-cultural pull, but it leaves us square in the middle, not really belonging to either, but caught between two worlds. I don’t think there is such a thing as AA culture, it’s too free flowing and dynamic to have any kind of singular root.

    Kobu wrote:

    “I sense there is a similarity between your [dizzle] background and Mojorider. You both grew up in areas where there were few Asians. You have had experience in dating non-Asian women….Guys like you can provide the additional insight, inspiration so that the brother will be motivated and empowered to take the leap of faith into real action.”

    True, it seems like dizzle and I have similar backgrounds growing up in predominantly white areas with few Asians. But I’m curious if there’s a correlation between which generation American one is, what environment one grew up in, to how hung up one is on AF’s. I’m something like third or fourth generation, so it isn’t that big of a stretch to socialize with the predominant white culture or to ask non-Asian women out on dates. I could see where someone who is still close to his immigrant past might have some trouble straddling the two worlds, trying to assimilate while being in transition and all. If this is the case, all I can suggest is, don’t be insular. Engage with people outside your community and grow as a person and that might help give you confidence in socializing with non-Asian women.

    I remember this funny black kid from high school, I wasn’t friends with him and he was a year ahead of me, but we had music classes together. One thing I heard him say has always stayed with me for being a simple yet kind of profound statement. “You meet and run into people every day of your life. What you make of those chance meetings is entirely up to you.” Think about it.

  100. I agree with what King said, but I might clarify just one thing:

    I don’t think AM should go after AF to preserve Asian culture; I think they should go after AF because they’re attracted to them. It’s a mental, emotional, and physical thing rather than a cultural thing. As I mentioned in the Jamie Yeo thread, I think AM’s like to shop there, even when the salespeople sometimes refuse to sell to them. I think it’s fine to try to convince AMs not to shop there, but I don’t know if that will work. AMs are just too much into AFs.

    I’m almost in agreement with urbs that AA culture is dead. Almost. I would say that it’s being redefined rather than completely dead. It used to be insular. Now we know that insular doesn’t work, so it’s a bit more fluid, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

  101. Larry

    Do me a favor and re-read what I wrote. In no way was I saying that IR dating and marriage is the answer for racial justice or equality. It was never stated as such. IRs are a reflection of the a shift in the paradigm of how WE ALL view different cultures. Nobody in their right mind would advocate entering an IR for the sake of social or racial justice. Nobody.

    The rise in IR mates and racial justice have a complementary role in society. If you grow up in a house where dating anything other than what you are is an abomination then you’re less likely to do it. But if this person turns on the tele or has friends that are in IRs then they might be curious even on a xenophobic level. This bit of curiosity is just enough to maybe pry that mind to an open one.

    You really missed the point, man. My statements never said that to gain racial justice or equality you had to enter an IR. When you date someone the goal in the relationship is to understand the other person. Without it the relationship fails. If both people make an effort to understand each other’s culture then are we not making racial progress? It doesn’t happen for everyone or every relationship but dating is a great arena for such change.

    Your quote: “Racial equality and justice on a broad societal level will not be achieved through whom you sleep with or marry.
    They are achieved through political activism and struggle.”

    My quote: “The more WE all mingle the closer we move towards understanding the cultural differences and therefore we increase tolerance.”

    Political activism does not work if there is no effort to understand the other side as well.

    Please don’t cherry pick my statements.

    I’m too tire for this shit. Spewing facts does not make your argument a valid one.

    @jaehwan

    Thanks for a great blog. As usual, you have started a barn burner here. Great food for thought. And you like the Ed Wang pick?! Yeah! I’m so happy for that dude. I hope in a few years he’s going to be a badass LT and throw some DEs around like bags of flour.

    If you come out to the Bay Area let me know. I would like to meet the author of one of my favorite blogs. We can have a drink and maybe take home some non-Asian females to do our part in pushing the progress of racial justice and equality. That was for you Larry.

    *note* I’m sorry if this is a duplicate. I grew impatient.

  102. King:It’s clearly a gross overstatement to say that “all” or even “most” AFs have abandon Asian men. The figures simply do not support that. Does it make sense to just ignore these numbers and continue repeating the same thing over and over?

    King, I get what you are saying. We ought to be thankful for the crumbs that fall our way.

    What the numbers do not reveal is the general mindset of AFs: Hear no evil, See no evil, Speak no evil.

    If we examine the 50% that are married to AMs a little more closely we will find a sizable chunk who did merely because that’s what their parents would have wanted. Another sizable chunk came from the Motherland. Finally, we have guys like Urbs, rich, successful, drives a nice car, etc. While AFs fuck around, doing whatever it is that they do, guys like Urbs work their asses off to achieve their success and when it comes time to marry, these girls latch on to the Urbs. Meanwhile, if you’re not an Urb, or a doctor, lawyer, banker, whatever, if you’re just some nondescript working stiff….you’re fucked.

    Basically, AMs are a “safe” option in case her parents absolutely refuse to have a non-Asian son-in-law, a meal-ticket for coming to America, a backup plan.

    It’s pathetic.

    But don’t take my word for it. Ask around, talk to people, do a little probing…see what you find. I dare anyone to see if what I am saying is not true.

    And because many AMs have a “scarcity-mentality” and hold a stubborn notion that AFs are the only option, for whatever reasons, we allow this to happen.

    Dude, where is your dignity?

  103. I don’t think AM should go after AF to preserve Asian culture; I think they should go after AF because they’re attracted to them. It’s a mental, emotional, and physical thing rather than a cultural thing. As I mentioned in the Jamie Yeo thread, I think AM’s like to shop there, even when the salespeople sometimes refuse to sell to them. I think it’s fine to try to convince AMs not to shop there, but I don’t know if that will work. AMs are just too much into AFs.

    I’m almost in agreement with urbs that AA culture is dead. Almost. I would say that it’s being redefined rather than completely dead. It used to be insular. Now we know that insular doesn’t work, so it’s a bit more fluid, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

    When I hear the word “culture”, I reach for my revolver.

  104. Diz,

    Sorry…your comment got caught in the spam filter, but I just got it out. No idea why Akismet put it in there.

    I hear the Bay Area calling, man! Okay, let me set myself a time horizon of sometime in the next 18 months. So I’m going to go to SF sometime before December of 2011. We’ll have an awesome time!

  105. Dizzle: I did read your comments, man. And I do understand your point.

    You’re basically trying to insinuate that there is some implicit progressive aspect to IR relationships. If not impacting racial justice directly, then IR supposedly helps to create a broader “culture of tolerance”–whatever the hell that means.

    You wrote:

    “The rise in IR mates and racial justice have a complementary role in society.”

    “The more WE all mingle the closer we move towards understanding the cultural differences and therefore we increase tolerance.”

    That ain’t true. Like I said before, those are straight up fallacies.

    It’s the We-Are-the-World, Let’s-Sing-Kumbaya version of racial justice that mainstream America loves to peddle.

    Too bad they are feel-good (White) lies.

    -Did Strom Thurmond’s decades-long IR relationship with a Black woman help to promote “understanding of cultural differences” in himself? If it did, he had a strange way of showing it, given his racist political views throughout his life.

    -Does Michelle Malkin’s IR marriage with some White guy create a more “tolerant culture”? If so, how do you explain her support for the Japanese American internment?

    -Does Amy Tan’s IR marriage with some other White guy cause her or America to become more “understanding”? This is the same Amy Tan who has made a lucrative career out of pandering to White stereotypes about “sexist and male chauvinist” Asian culture.

    -How about all those White boys who buy, sorry… fall madly in love with mail-order brides from Asia? Usually, these White boys are some of the most Orientalist and racist fuckers you will find, as they have visions of “Geisha girls” and “China dolls” dancing in their head.

    The bottom line: Dating or marrying somebody of a different race or ethnicity does not necessarily create some feel-good culture of understanding–interpersonally or otherwise.

    There is nothing intrinsically positive (or negative) about IR relationships. Usually, they tend to reflect the broader society in which they occur.

    And in a country that is based upon White racism and racial hierarchy like America, IR relationships will more likely reflect this racial inequality–not meliorate it.

    BTW, if you are so tired talking about IR, why do you post on this thread to begin with?

  106. Pingback: The Asian Female Celebrity Union (AFCU) Embargo « big WOWO

  107. Damn Larry, you’re absolutely right. Some of the most racist white guys I run into are those married to Asian women. It’s like being married to a minority is a carte blanche to be complete assholes toward that person’s community. After all, you always have, “I’m not racist, I’m married to a ___” argument to fall back on. That is one of the greatest ironies of this whole IR issue. The AF married/dating these guys are undermining their own status and hurting themselves without even realizing it.

  108. Oi, I spend a week at Grandma’s house without internet and look what has happened in these threads!

    TZ I have to Hi5 you, I pretty well agree with what you have said about things–especially the support you express for our Asian men and mentoring APA sisters.

    I would like to add that there is a glass ceiling to the “advantage” Asian women are perceived to have in American culture. As Larry and Leon have noted, just because they let you in the door doesn’t mean you are one of the family. IMHO, being part of an IR relationship treads a very fine, almost invisible line. To be frank, they might want to sleep with you or have you as a trophy, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they want to talk to you. I think a lot of APA women don’t realize this and simply chalk it up to regular relationship issues or “men” in general. If one is not aware of the broader issues, missing the line between male non-responsiveness and cultural imperialism in a relationship can be easy to do.

  109. Thanks, RCR! Those are excellent points about them not talking to you. Seriously. With Asian women married to the two most powerful White men in media (Wendi Deng and Rupert Murdoch; Julie Chen and Les Moonves), you’d think OUR stories would be all over the media, both in broadcast and print. But alas, no.

    By the way, I just caught this:

    Black Women See Fewer Black Men at the Altar
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/04/us/04interracial.html?hp

    So 22% of black men who wed in 2008 did so with non-black women?

    And this:

    “Among all married African-Americans in 2008, 13 percent of men and 6 percent of women had a nonblack spouse. This compares with nearly half of American-born Asians choosing non-Asian spouses. ”

    Half of us? If you consider that the proportion of AF/non-Asian men to AM/non-Asian women is like 4 to 1 by marriage and like 100 to 1 by dating, things don’t bode well for us.

    Conquer the AFCU embargo with love!

  110. ““Compliments about my physical appearance” translates into “She probably spent her life dating WM but when it’s marrying age, she wants to take advantage of my financial situation and the hard work that came with it.””

    uRB4N, It is funny you mentioned that because I feel the same way. I was a total nerd in HS, and was bullied in Middle School and in HS. I moved away for college into a predominately white college. My first year living among white people, I discovered how people see. Even in HS, I didn’t connect the dot that I was Asian and people treated me differently, mainly because I grew up in an abusive household (my father beat my mom and I, and he is strict as well) and my self-esteem was already shot and destroyed.

    My first year of college, I met a lot condescending whites who thinks I was just another stereotypical Asians (which at the time, I looked like one, but mentally, I love rock, the “American” lifestyle, and speak without an accent). The first time I remember encountering the small penis stereotype is from a group of white girls, and all laughed when they stereotyped me. As I became very self-conscious about my Asian side. More and more I encountered these stereotypes. I didn’t like to interact with whites because of it. As I see more Asian girls with whites, I feel bitter because I didn’t kiss a girl until I was 21 and didn’t lose my virginity until I was 26.

    Now that I have suffered through college and got a good job, I begin to date more. I met an Asian girl who never been with an Asian guy, and in the back of my mind, I keep thinking ‘she is settling after she had all the fun with whites’. This girl also had only white boyfriends and she won’t tell me how many she’s been with. Her last boyfriend also cheated on her with another Asian girl. As much as I feel sorry for her, I can’t help but think to myself that I am the last resort after her misadventure with whites. Needless to say, I called it quit after she revealed to me that she contracted STD from her previous White boyfriend. The sad part is I lost my virginity to her.

    I hate feeling that way, but it is how society have treated me and how I have internalize a lot of the BS.

  111. A–

    I think those girls are hot and patriotic too.

    John–

    Thanks for sharing your experiences. It’s tough out there, and I’m happy (I hope) you didn’t contract any STDs from her. There’s also nothing wrong (in my opinion) with losing your virginity later. I do think it’s good to date early. Hopefully we can all destroy the internalized BS.

  112. John,

    I’d like to echo Byron and say thanks for sharing your experiences. I’ve seen some women, both Asian and non-Asian, settle down with nice stable Asian guys after several years of dating assholes. Kind of sucks for those fellas, because they end up with a woman who, for lack of a PC term, is past her prime and full of baggage.

  113. Kind of sucks for those fellas, because they end up with a woman who, for lack of a PC term, is past her prime and full of baggage.

    Apples that didn’t sell.

    If you’re gonna be un-PC, might as well be somewhat poetic about it.

  114. As the other posters said, thanks for sharing some personally painful experiences with us. I hope you find some happiness and peace and leave the psychic baggage behind. I’m not saying to forget about it—-you can’t. Those experiences have made you what you are today. But don’t dwell on it; live in the present.

    Also, I don’t think it ever does any good to probe too much into someone’s past. The past is a heap of ashes, relegated to the dustbin of history. Enjoy what you have in the now. But yes, it does suck to sort of know that one is a last resort, or to get the sense that your partner settled for you. Furthermore, don’t feel sorry for her because of her past hurts and heart aches. Acknowledge it and then file it away.

  115. Clearly the apples *did* sell. Don’t give a sob story of buyer’s remorse just because the last one to the apple stand is jealous of the apples that other consumers were able to buy.

    “Past their prime and full of baggage.” The reason it’s “un-PC” is because it’s offensive and hurtful. A man who is over the age of 25 and has never had rich, rewarding relationships with women would fit that description as well, “past their prime and full of baggage.”

    Clearly the woman isn’t the only one settling if you are thinking such ill thoughts of her.

  116. As usual, you raise excellent points, TZ.

    I think every man should have at least one rich, rewarding relationship with a woman or women before 25. If one doesn’t, some stage passes, some opportunity is lost. It reminds me a bit of my thoughts after reading Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet by Jamie Ford–it depicted innocent and naive love, a phenomenon whose possibility disappears in most people after a few years in the workforce. Once your time horizon passes, you never get another shot. Now that’s not to say that this woman didn’t have baggage–I think she did. But perhaps we need to acknowledge some of the damage that we Asian men bring (and include myself in this).

    I want step back for a second and say that I think it’s good to share experiences. Keep on sharing! I don’t want to discourage anyone from speaking freely. That’s what this space is for.

    That said, we can still acknowledge damage. Let me give you an example. Check this out:

    http://www.the-spearhead.com/2009/11/09/everything-she-does-is-cute/

    This PUA writes:

    The more you patronizingly treat women like bratty kid sisters, the more their vaj takes over their critical thinking skills. It all harkens back to the one fundamental principle guiding male-female relations: Chicks love submitting to powerful men. And what is a bigger demonstration of male sexual power than believing that a woman is so far beneath you that she is the equivalent of a child, hardly deserving of a serious answer or an emotional investment?

    How crazy is that? Treat women in a condescending manner as if she is “so far beneath you that she is the equivalent of a child.” Well, that certainly sounds like a great way to start a relationship! And if you’re dating someone that is beneath you, what does that say about you?

    I guess my question is this: How can we empower both men and women together? Our destinies truly are intertwined.

    Maybe we need a podcast on this…

    (I just checked the website, and it looks like that service is still there…)

  117. Hey John. I’m glad that you can talk about your experiences and I hope that by discussing them, you can put them in perspective to the rest of your life. That abusive parent thing seems like a heavy load to bear, and it takes courage to speak about it, even anonymously. I know that.

    As for the way you were treated in middle school and high school, I’m truly sorry to hear of it. But if it’s true that misery loves company, then I think you can take certain solace in the knowledge that those times were rough for a LOT of people. You mentioned that you were a bit of a nerd. Rest assured, that had you been a lilly white nerd, you probably would have been just as miserable. Nerds are always targets in high school, no matter their ethnicity

    Believe me, the fat kids were persecuted, the poor kids were laughed at, the short kids were dumped on, the dumb kids were teased, the ugly kids were derided, and yes, the ethnic minorities were marginalized and picked on. High school is a time of great insecurity, and EVERYONE is insecure, even those at the top of the food chain. Unfortunately, this causes a lot of abuse and emotional trauma, especially in the larger, urban/suburban schools.

    Your story is real, and your suffering is real… but I could line up an army of White nerds who could tell similar (but not identical) stories:
    - Made fun of in Middle School/High School/College
    - Late in developing romantic relationships with women
    - Had their first sex in their mid twenties
    - Had a bad (or several bad) experience(s) with a girlfriend(s)
    - Residual self esteem problems

    The question is what part of your suffering was because of your Asianess, and what part was because you were a nerd? And the second question is, does it really matter? The bullies were going to use something to torment you, in your case, race was an easy differentiator, but if not race, it would have been something else.

    My words are not meant to quell or downplay anything that you have said. This is just something to consider in how you go forward from here on. If when you don’t have a girlfriend, you think of it as an “Asian male thing” then it becomes something that is largely out of your control as an individual. It’s the result of larger social forces than no one man can change single-handedly. However, if you say to yourself, that the disparity may play some part, but there are a lot of other factors involved that I CAN control, then it seems more healthy and more hopeful.

    No one can ever say, with certainty, what percentage their problems are their own, and what percentage is based on larger social issues. However, the best outlook is not to assume that your problems are insurmountable, and to believe that you can master your circumstances, and your destiny, regardless of the disparity. Many Asian guys do just that.

    That’s not to say that you shouldn’t be aware of the disparity, and the media bias, and certain prejudices. Those things should certainly not be ignored, they just need to take their proper place in your mind. If they cause you to be suspicious, and fearful of relationships with EVERY Asian woman out there, just because she’s Asian, then the bullies from high school are still controlling your life. When what White people have done to you begins to control your relationships with Asian women, then the time has come to free your mind.

  118. “This PUA writes:

    The more you patronizingly treat women like bratty kid sisters, the more their vaj takes over their critical thinking skills. It all harkens back to the one fundamental principle guiding male-female relations: Chicks love submitting to powerful men. And what is a bigger demonstration of male sexual power than believing that a woman is so far beneath you that she is the equivalent of a child, hardly deserving of a serious answer or an emotional investment?”
    ———–

    This is a great example of how the PUA Neanderthals use a teaspoon of truth to flavor a feedbag or horse sh_t!

    In my experience, most women do appreciate leadership qualities in a man. She doesn’t want you to keep asking her what restaurant you should take her to on a date. She doesn’t want to have to do ALL of the talking in the relationship. She wants you to know what you want. She also expects you to have your own opinions, and she wants you to believe in something. She wants you to defend your beliefs, even when they contradict with her own. In other words, she doesn’t want a wimp or a pushover, and it’s true that a lot of so called “nice guys” don’t get that. Yes, smart women are going to push you, and test you, and when they do, they want to see a man.

    However, women are also surprisingly concerned about being respected, appreciated, and valued. (go figure!) Only women with extremely low self esteem, would accept that sort of treatment, so this is great advice only if you plan on dating ex-hookers or recovering drug addicts.

    Besides, most women are smarter than you anyway. (at least on some levels) How are you supposed to keep up these patriarchal facade of superiority when she can see all the stupid mistakes you’re making along the way? The older you get, the more you realize how much men need women.

  119. Those darn Apple Nazis. “You’re not my type [yet]. No apples for you! Come back, 15 years. Next!”

  120. I didn’t read John’s story so much as someone who’s jealous of the woman’s past lovers, but as someone who’s suspicious of her feelings given his perception of who she was excluding from her dating pool. I’d too be questioning her real motives, and whether that would be a good thing for me.

    Come on Notty! If you only knew the POWER of the dark side!!!

    King, the Star Wars reference went over my head. I thought we were talking about fruit!

  121. OOps! Sorry Nottyboy. As soon as you said the word, “Apple,” I immediately began trying to get you to buy an apple computer… which I still think is a good idea.

    force of habit :-)

  122. @King,

    well said, you make a lot of good points to John that I didn’t articulate but had thought about after my initial response to him.

  123. John- Thank you for sharing your experience. Many of us have been there, or know someone who has. I think you’re too hard on yourself. We all make mistakes and let many opportunities slip by because of the bullshit that’s been programmed into our brains since childhood. It’s good that you recognize that BS now. King brought up some very good points. The first step to finding a meaningful relationship with someone is to have faith in yourself.

    TZ- I believe it’s Alpha Asian and Kobukson who brought up the whole “past their prime and full of baggage” and “apples that didn’t sell”. John was kind and brave enough to share his personal experience and he deserves a bit more respect, if not sympathy.

    Jaewhan- Shit man, you make it sound like there’s no hope for these guys. Is this why we’re here? What are we trying to achieve through this discussion?

    I can’t believe that after John shared his “sob story”, the only person who really offered any sympathy and advice is King. And that guy’s not even Asian. Is this what Asian Americans have become? Just a bunch of cynics? Where is your empathy, brothers (and sisters)?

  124. The empathy is there. If it weren’t, nobody would’ve responded to John.

    The reason for this discussion is what jaehwan said in his post:

    Can AM’s get past AF’s to date out themselves? Some can, some can’t. And it’s his advice to those who are hung up on AF’s:

    ” I think the best solution is just to accept it. Accept it as part of what you are. And if you’re going to fail, FAIL HARD. Keep on engaging with Asian women, keep on trying to build up your own talents, keep on trying to be the best person possible because no one else will do it for you. To paraphrase King, stop thinking of dating as a war or a battle. Think about it as either meeting someone hot (not serious) or trying to have a real relationship (serious). Running or attacking Asian women isn’t going to stop the Kingstonian Holy War….Dating should be in the here and now, and that’s how people need to think about it.”

    And I agree that it’s in the here and now. The past is a fucking heap of ashes, as I said to John. Let your tears flow, let your past go. The only thing that matters is what is happening right now–don’t worry or dwell on her past relationship with white guys. No matter what you think about it, there’s not a damn thing you can do to change that fact or her history. The only thing one can do is create a new history for her.

  125. I guess I should learn to read the posts more thoroughly cause I missed yours, MojoRider. You’re exactly right about letting the past go. I like to add to what King said: it sucks sometimes to be a social outcast, but that doesn’t mean you’re any less deserving of a good relationship. Maybe being a nerd or Asian (or both) have stopped you from doing the things you wanted in the past, but that doesn’t mean you should let them stop you now. I know many nerds who do not get into relationships until their late 20s, even 30s, yet they still managed to.

    I think as you grow older, you gain the wisdom to eventually accept yourself, and you develop real confidence by accomplishing things in your life (having a degree, having a job, developing skills, etc.) that you didn’t have back in high school. Not to mention you’ll meet other men and women(!) who have the same wisdom and can accept you. I don’t know what you miss by not having a deep meaningful relationship when you’re young (I’m also one of those guys who “blew it”), but there is a LOT of things out there to experience. A LOT. And being a nerd and Asian does not keep you from doing these things unless you let them.

  126. No worries, I wasn’t arguing with you. I’d also like to throw this in as well:

    Nothing lasts forever

    And that’s why I encourage John to just enjoy the moment being with this girl and not let his mind bend back on itself, constantly thinking about things. If it all falls to shit, well, maybe you can learn something from it. Life is about experiences, the good and the bad. Getting one’s heart crushed and crushing someone else’s heart.

  127. John,
    I too want to thank you for coming out and sharing your story. I have stated elsewhere on this blog that more brothers should break the code of silence, not be afraid of what others might think, emerge and share their personal testimonials. Our condition is poorly understood and often attacked or belittled because there is a lack of a sustained narrative. All I ask for is raw honesty and it’s almost as if you heeded the call on cue.

    I come from a background of Christian faith, which informs my worldview, so I hope you don’t mind if I make liberal references to scripture.

    In 1 Corinthians 13:10-13, the Apostle Paul wrote:
    When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

    It takes a very long time to become a man. When I was younger, I was not much of a man. Perhaps even now, I am not much of a man either. My only consolation is that there had been some degree of growth and maturation. I think.

    The Apostle Paul spoke of a “thorn in his flesh” in his writings and he begged God to free him of it. We don’t know what that “thorn” was but we do know that it was a heavy, personal burden of some kind.

    My own testimonial includes the fact that I, too, had prayed to God many years ago to free me from my own “thorn”. It was quite possibly the most sincere prayer I have ever uttered in my entire life. We all know what that “thorn” is. It is what has brought me, you, and others to this discussion.

    Like with Paul, God has not relieved me of the affliction and it still remains with me to this day. Perhaps, I shall carry it to the grave. I have since come to accept it as my lot and even to embrace it as an integral part of my personal identity. Perhaps, this is something that is absolutely necessary for me to experience, in accordance with a role that I must play in an unfolding of a certain destiny, without which it would be impossible to fulfill. It is certainly something that has shaped, in no small part, who I am today.

    As I have gotten older I have realized that there is no perfect anything out there. That is magic you bring with you. All you really need in someone to love is to find a modicum of decency and the spark of love. All else — the career, the looks, the mystical “chemistry” — are fringe benefits.

    The trick to life is saying yes to it and not being haunted by the imaginary “what might have been’s you’ve been ‘cheated’ of”. Koreans call this emotional state “Han”, and it is what prevented my people from developing a certain sense of humor about their collective fate, unlike the Jews, even though we have similar histories of displacement, chaos, and hardship. The present is always where you start. The strange thing is that if work at it well enough, you can look back and say “this is something only I could have done” and be content. But even at the end, there is about it an air of mystery, something unfinished. It is that trailing ending that suggests more than anything else that the story goes on. Dostoevsky said that we would all of us be pulled up to heaven by the one thing we could never betray or think ill of.

    Jaewhan: That said, we can still acknowledge damage.

    The problem is that while men will generally freely admit to destructive instincts, few women do. The male destructive instincts are very visible, overt, active and easily recognizable. Often, it is self-destructive. The female destructive instincts on the other hand are more subtle, deceptive, illusive and difficult to describe, which allows them to deny their destructive instincts exist at all or to deny their full extent.

    Women need to take full responsibility for their destructive instincts. I think the perception that many men have is that too many women refuse to take responsibility for their actions and their destructive instincts, and that is why many men simply don’t trust women.

    Jaewhan: I guess my question is this: How can we empower both men and women together? Our destinies truly are intertwined.

    Min Jin Lee describes a scene at the very end of her novel, after everything that has happened, where Casey (the protagonist) and the boy Unu are drawing trees and flowers. It evokes the image of the Garden of Eden. Lee suggests that there has been a loss of innocence, a “fall” of some kind, after which men and women can never view each other the same way again. The question that hangs heavy in the air is can anything be done, after all the damage that has taken place, to restore things to peace?

    I don’t know the answer to that one. The reason I don’t know the answer is because while so many of our brothers are suffering in silence and live in a cowered existence, too many of the womenfolk deny there is a problem or are even aware that there is a problem in the first place. The fact remains that too many of our Asian brothers have been reduced to perpetual beta-hood by the IR disparity and women are fundamentally repulsed by beta males, much less have any inclination to help. The fact also remains that the status quo serves their interest so why would they want anything to change for the better?

    Asian women have made it extremely clear again and again and again that they do not need Asian men. Give them what they want, I say.

    In the meantime, we must work on our own healing and our own empowerment, without it being complicated by the conflicting agenda of Asian women.

  128. Kobukson,

    I think you’re the only other guy I know who read Free Food For Millionaires. Which means you’re the only other guy I know in the whole universe who understands how Min Jin broke my heart. And…ah what the hell, I’ll repost my favorite Dionne Warwick song just for Min Jin:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfPaPH-qKeI

    And you actually bring up something that I hadn’t realized before. Even though I thought Unu was a cardboard anti-stereotype, and even though Min Jin nailed us by putting in an Asian rapist elsewhere in the novel, Unu was never hit with the normal Kingstonian tar and feather. There was at least some effort to make it right. So in that sense, even though she broke my heart, I have to give my respects.

    In the meantime, we must work on our own healing and our own empowerment, without it being complicated by the conflicting agenda of Asian women.

    I think it is complicated. The easiest way out of this all would be to just not be attracted to women period. But is that really a good solution? Workable? That was the point of the original post–I don’t think you can get out of it. Even if you do date White women–which I think you should–there is still that chain which is not so easily erased.

    We should do a podcast on finding love. That’s what it’s about, right? Maybe we can distill a message for Asian guys around the country. Maybe we can make it into a workable solution. Would you like to do this, Kobu? We might be able to build off of that Free Food story. That really could be a metaphor for AM/AF relationships as some of the commenters are drawing it.

    Let’s do it!

  129. I think it is complicated. The easiest way out of this all would be to just not be attracted to women period.

    There’s the problem right there. The “easy way” out. We have a problem that demands discipline, rock solid conviction, decisive action, putting intellect and reason over emotion and sentimentality, and taking the hard, narrow road but you’re all looking for quick fixes and for others to do most of the heavy lifting for you. Most of you are neither leaders nor followers. Neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm. A great many of you have too much pride and stubbornness about some truly worthless crap and fail to step up to the plate where it really matters the most.

    The IR disparity continues to remain a dilemma for most of you because you refuse to use your imagination. You must think like a man of action and act like a man of thought. Sometimes the hardest things in life is knowing which bridges to cross and which to burn. Some bridges must be burnt. When there is no way out, you find a deeper way in.

    This “chain” that you speak of…what is it exactly? Can we be more precise? You seem to imply that we are hopelessly stuck on Asian women no matter what. I beg to differ. I believe that it is cowardice and fear. A fear of the unknown and hesitation to explore a Brave New World where your kryptonite is banished from your reality, where your Iago Complex is no longer a tormenting demon, constantly chipping away at your sense of worth. But you’re dressing it up as “rebuilding AM/AF relationships” and “community solidarity”.

    The onus for rebuilding AM/AF relationships falls squarely on AFs. They fucked it up. Let them fix it. Guess what? They’re not going to realize that there is a problem in the first place unless they get a taste of their own medicine. Asian women are some of the most insecure creatures in the world.

    Jaewhan, you and I are like night and day when it comes to the “solution”. I am not exactly sure what it is you’re proposing. You you know what the definition of “co-dependency” is? It’s where one partner in a relationship clings to it despite the fact that the other heaps abuse on that person on a regular basis. There’s your “chain”.

  130. what up peeps. wow 5.20am and just finishing reading these thoughtful posts, just thinking of what i can add. never realised so many sensitive AM on here. me personally, well i kinda go for older women. and white. however i have been with a filipino, a korean, 3 actually, a scots, well yeah anyway you get the idea. so anyway here are my points ( in no coherent order)

    1. the new gen dont have hangups because theres a lot of them, and they all enjoy dancing in synchronized movement . make of that what you will.

    2. we are the marginalised gen but that makes us more thoughtful as individuals and broadminded

    3. yes i agree asian women do see white people as daddy but it also depends on the individual. my gran was married to a white man and didnt fetishise, but my mom does. and in general i do see AM do the white thing but in the younger groups, its less noticable because theres more of them and …they like dancing in synch.

    4. my personal pref is : attraction is personal. and also life is short. having said that, as long as there is injustice against AM then we gotta do our bit to forward the movement. personally, i love a good fight. but then so did bruce and now we ended up with the kung fu stereotype alongside the other AM hangups. but what an icon.

    5.( and to me this is most important ) …yes i agree theres never been an Asian community but like someone said its going through a change with the younger synchronized dancers.. i mean gen. a john cho here a daniel from lost there, some youtube here a bit of rain there. yup its all sinking in, and dont the younguns have it good compared to us void dwellers? having said that we have the benefit of lived experience and generally chilling. which doesnt PWN in the iphone age but you can be bubbly and chirpy or excited as you want but that shit only works when your a kid. Growing up….thats the real test.

    okay well thanks all for a great read. not sure if i added anything worthy to ‘da cause’ but hey thats okay cos sleep is my only cause now. gnite.peace.

  131. Brit,

    Good points! The one thing I might question (and not saying it’s wrong, just questioning) is whether things are really that good for the young ‘uns today. It may just be that they are too young to be jaded. Give the young ‘uns another ten years–will they still be synchronized at that time?

  132. Kobukson,

    I know you’re well read and have lots to say. I was thinking of something similar to what urban did last year (has it only been a year? Man, blog-years go fast)

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/05/podcast-urb4n-talks-about-ir/

    Don’t know if you heard it, but here was the female version:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/05/podcast-interracial-relationships-and-the-gender-divide-asian-american-female-perspective/

    It’s up to you how we do it–I’m totally open to new ideas, suggestions, etc. I was thinking that there are a number of possibilities:

    1. You could add to what Urb4N said (I’d have to listen to it again to remember exactly what was said.)

    2. We could talk about Free Food For Millionaires and how it describes what you’re talking about–falling apart and rebuilding.

    3. We could talk about love–what is Christian love, what is “traditional” Asian love, and what do we need to do as Asian men.

    4. We could talk about gender relationships in Christianity, Korean culture, and Chinese culture.

    5. Since you’re the most well read PUA I know, you could educate me on how PUA has helped you. We could then lead into a discussion on the differences between men and women–according to what you’ve read, what you’ve experienced, and what you know in the communities of which you’re a part.

    What do you think?

    You wrote:

    You seem to imply that we are hopelessly stuck on Asian women no matter what.

    I think that’s it in a nutshell. I’m not just implying it; I’m saying it. And…oh, for f@#ks sake, MojoRider got me hooked on all these melodic old tunes…first I posted Dionne, and now…aight, I’ll post another one to describe the “hopelessly” devoted Asian men:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJpyG3PXoKw

    My point is that we are stuck. That chain is an invisible force that keeps bringing us back to the community store. My point is that we need to just ride with it. Accept it. And then grow within it.

    We can podcast on this too. You can make fun of me on the podcast too. Free speech!

    Let me know which topic you like. I can draw up a sample itinerary and e-mail it to you. If you’re free tomorrow night or Thursday night, we can do it then.

  133. Another topic that I’d be interested in discussing with you, kobukson: How do we bring passion and feeling back to the Asian male population? You read Culture Building, so I’m sure your ideas would be very interesting.

  134. yeah, you see the younger generation of aZnAmericans way more in the loop with what’s up with pop culture in Asia, as well as the AA creative community (music, indie film, dance, etc.), which is growing slowly but surely. I highly doubt that’ll create a self-empowered oppositional and liberatory movement anytime in the near future. Damn, do we even have a rebellious culture we could call our own or is it all dead and everything’s borrowed? If anything, these young bucks are more likely to develop post-racial colorblindness with historical amnesia as side effect. But who really knows?
    How this all relates to the invisible chain, the complexity that is AA sexual politics, the white normative gaze, racial self-esteem, the boring and the predictable, and what have you, well, the utopian dimension in me says our time is coming. But, opinions are like a**holes… we all have one.

  135. @ Willie.

    Maybe part of the problem is that Asian Americans are always looking to the liberation activism models of past groups. That is necessary of course, but different groups did different things in different times. Perhaps the key today is to define a new AA movement based on the needs, culture, and soul, of Asian Americans in 2010.

    I wonder if enough introspection is happening, not on changing AA culture, but on how that culture can be applied to a new kind of activism that fits.

  136. Well, Byron, if that’s the attitude, why shouldn’t we just use that mentality whenever Asian Americans are oppressed in other avenues?

    If we can’t change it, just don’t worry about it.

    We should all stay in the box. Abused? Don’t worry, be happy! You can’t change it anyway so just bend over and take it.

  137. @ King — you say “different groups did different things in different times,” but, regarding folks of color, wasn’t it mostly about fighting for acceptance and equality in a white supremacist capitalist patriarchy? So maybe we use models of past oppressed groups because no point in re-inventing the wheel?

    All I know is one of the “needs” in the AA culture is to see A LOT more |post|anti|ultra|uber|bad-ass| AAmuthafckas representin’ in the entertainment/arts landscape. It’s the beautiful struggle, but aren’t we all prisoners of hope?

  138. Urbs and MaSir,

    Coming out of Reinhold Niebuhr’s Serenity Prayer which they recite at 12 step meetings:

    God, give us grace to accept with serenity
    the things that cannot be changed,
    Courage to change the things
    which should be changed,
    and the Wisdom to distinguish
    the one from the other.

    I don’t think you can stop Asian men from being attracted to, supporting, and fighting for Asian women. As I’ve said before, asking an Asian man to give up Asian women is kind of like asking a gay guy to give up men. We accept it and grow from there. It’s not the easy way out. In fact, it’s the hard way. But in the end, we become better people by accepting who we are.

  139. I never said “I’m giving up Asian women” nor stop fighting for them. My statement was a refutation to your rehash of what Urbs, Kobukson and I see as a cop out. Having a penchant for Asian women is okay and natural but that shouldn’t stop Asian men from expanding their Game and exploring unchartered territories with non-Asian women.

    Your rhetoric that reads as if we should just throw in the towel already and I simply disagree.

  140. Well also, everybody has a penchant for “their own women” to begin with. That is the usual default. However, no one else found it impossible (with exposure) to appreciate different types of beauty. I imagine that Asian guys are pretty much like other guys of any ethnicity. Sure, there are definite advantages to falling in love with someone who “gets you” and your culture, because she is as much a part of it as you are. But there are also advantages to falling in love with someone who brings a fresh read to your perspective and who brings insights from another culture into the relationship. In the end, nobody can say that one experience is superior to the other.

    So, dating other people from other cultures is generally a good thing to experience. My only hang up is when you judge any group, in it’s entirety, based on your experiences with one or a few of them.

  141. King,

    Well also, everybody has a penchant for “their own women” to begin with. That is the usual default.

    The default human target?

    MaSir,

    Point taken. I agree (I’ve always agreed) that AM should diversify. I’m just saying that logic isn’t the be all, end all when it comes to relationships. I also think that we need to accept the way things are when it comes to the larger society, but that we should work extra hard at seeing Asian women as individuals and acknowledging our feelings, maybe exploring our feelings (which, I guess, is what we’ve been doing).

  142. Well, according to Siegfried 19 year old Asian women who barely speak a word of english are the default human target, but, of course, he’s a special case.

  143. Fair enough but you don’t sit around and continue to support and give leverage to a group who is being apathetic and abusive to you.

    That’s just stupid and smacks of the typical ch*naman.

  144. But using your own brand of broadly-applied racist discrimination, to combat the racism that you experience from certain Asian females, wont work either. To quote Audre Lorde, “The Master’s Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master’s House.”

    Your racism is not the proper tool to use in overcoming somebody else’s.

  145. Jaewhan,
    Look, it’s really simple. You’re married, settled, and what’s more you are also a father to boot. Your priorities are different. You don’t have to grapple with The Issue in the same way that a single man must. You can afford the luxury to be more laid-back and complacent about it. You keep talking of love and restoration because you have children and you want to help make the world a better place for them than it was for us. I understand that.

    But, if you will allow me to be perfectly frank, your idealism comes across more as naive, wooly, air-headed fluff than anything that can be construed as noble. The man who has been sucked dry of confidence and reduced to a cowered existence by the death of a thousand small cuts that is the IR disparity cannot even love himself. I find this all this talk of love to be a bit too much.

    If bending over and taking it up the ass and saying “Thank you, Bitches. May I please have another?” is the answer, then we are more or less doing that already. What you are suggesting walks a fine line between noblesse-oblige magnanimity and being a push-over chump. You may delude yourself in your own head that you are being noble and loving and all that but the world is more likely to interpret your actions as yet another example of the typical Asian male beta weakness who lacks the balls to stand up for himself.

    Einstein said the very definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting something different. Our’s is an unreasonable situation that demands a response of reason. Our response to The Issue has been anything but, whether it has been playing victimization or assuming the Ostrich Position.

    The “chain” that you speak of has nothing to do with some vague mumbo-jumbo mystical affinity that men have with women. Many AMs, such as yourself, feel compelled to “reach out to AFs”, demonstrate “unconditional love”, and perform all manner of dog and pony tricks because YOU HAVE NO CHOICE. What’s more, they KNOW THIS TOO and they ARE NOT FOOLED. It is all a thinly disguised cry of desperation. You go ahead and do your dog and pony tricks. See if they even care. We continue to stand by with shit-eating grins on our faces while AFs continue to do with impunity what they do best with no consequences, which is running a constant, on-going program of no-hassle, easy pussy for white guys.

    Your talk of love is way out of place. The IR disparity issue is a domain that derives from the most primal, instinctive, and reptilian part of the brain. Survival of the Fittest. Darwinian natural selection. CHANGE, not love, is what’s demanded here. We must evolve into new creations. To our peril, we continue to expend much energy spinning our wheels fruitlessly and wasted in unproductive areas when it would be wiser to focus on change and adaptation.

    Our priority is freedom and personal liberation. Freedom from Bullshit. Freedom from the prison of our own minds which confines us to the “reservation”.

    Those who seek safety over freedom will get neither safety nor freedom. Join or Die.

    I appreciate your offer to do a podcast with me. I’ll think about it.

  146. Yes.

    What was I thinking? No one ever coined the phrase “fight fire with fire” before. Like my “glass of cold water” analogy, in order to make someone understand how it really feels, you must put them under the exact same environment.

  147. Urbs,

    I gotta agree with King. Sure, you shouldn’t support groups that oppress you, but what group is oppressing me? Did Malcolm X at the end of his life oppose ALL white people? Should I not support my own daughter just because she’s part of her own group?

    Hmm…I will say that I’m a typical ch*naman in that I like Chinese women. :)

  148. Kobukson,

    Thanks! Please do consider the podcast. I think it’ll be lots of fun, and it’ll get the conversation moving in a different direction around here. I learn something EVERY time I do it.

    Believe it or not, I agree with most of what you say. You’re right–I no longer deal with The Issue in the same way you do. My priorities are totally different these days. My days are filled with fun, but they’re also filled with other stuff, such as changing diapers or trying to feed children who don’t want to eat. At the end of the day these days (though I’ve heard it changes when kids get older), I don’t even have nearly enough time to think about The Issue from a single man’s perspective. Usually I just drop unconscious the minute I complete my last chore.

    That being said, let me ask a question:

    If someone wants to grow rich, they seek advice from accomplished businesspeople who have “made it.” If someone wants to write a book, they seek advice from published authors who have “made it.” We usually seek advice from people who are experts in their field or who have achieved some success. If I want computer graphics advice, I’d go to King. Law advice or literature advice? TZ. Wealth management advice? Urb4n. How to handle a firearm? Alpha or Mojo.

    So why, when it comes to dealing with women, do people not listen to the advice of men who are married? (Even today, many people don’t acknowledge the non-PUA advice I posted long ago.) I’m not saying I’m an expert on women–I’m not–but when a married man speaks, why do people say, “you don’t understand” or use urb4ns “glass of cold water” analogy? I mean, I’m an Asian male–I have been there before, hearing all the old, “I’m Asian but I only date White” stuff.

    What gives?

    Seriously, if a successful entrepreneur were to give advice on how to make money, would most people tell him, “Dude, you’re not poor like me, so I’m not sure you have anything helpful to tell me?”

  149. “What was I thinking? No one ever coined the phrase “fight fire with fire”

    You’re right-
    If someone breaks into your house, you should burglarize theirs the next day.
    If someone cuts you off on the road, you should cut them off right back.
    If someone shouts at you, start shouting even louder back at them.

    And once the person “understands how it really feels,” based on your revenge, then they will be apologetic and want to make up with you—not turn it up a notch and go another round.

  150. “I’m not saying I’m an expert on women–I’m not–but when a married man speaks, why do people say, “you don’t understand” or use urb4ns “glass of cold water” analogy? I mean, I’m an Asian male–I have been there before, hearing all the old, “I’m Asian but I only date White” stuff.”

    Byron is being modest. He is more of an expert on women than he is admitting. ;-)

  151. This whole deal’s taken an interesting (although not entirely surprising) turn. Is the whole point here just to get Asian American men laid? So if we just hook these brothers up, then the whole IR thing ceases to be an issue? So if half the men in the population also marries out, then all will be happy in the Asian American community, right?

  152. King:
    You’re right-
    If someone breaks into your house, you should burglarize theirs the next day.
    If someone cuts you off on the road, you should cut them off right back.
    If someone shouts at you, start shouting even louder back at them.

    And once the person “understands how it really feels,” based on your revenge, then they will be apologetic and want to make up with you—not turn it up a notch and go another round.

    1 There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven—

    2 A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.

    3 A time to kill and a time to heal; A time to tear down and a time to build up.

    4 A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance.

    5 A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones; A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.

    6 A time to search and a time to give up as lost; A time to keep and a time to throw away.

    7 A time to tear apart and a time to sew together; A time to be silent and a time to speak.

    8 A time to love and a time to hate; A time for war and a time for peace.

  153. Fundamental differences between Jaewhan’s philosophy and mine:

    1. The solution to the problems of the IR disparity must be centered on AMs, not AFs.

    2. My primary concern is not so much the division between AMs and AFs. My concern is that the AM is divided against himself. Political Correctness and fear of offending AFs often forces AMs to deny their own reality and to seek a route of compromise and appeasement.

    2. The empowerment and restoration of confidence and mental/emotional/spiritual well-being of AMs takes much higher priority than appeasement and being an apologist toward AFs

    3. AM liberation theology is not about “revenge”. It is a recognition of the fact that the identity and reality of AFs have sufficiently diverged from that of AMs to the point where it is irreconcilable and moving forward from there. Avoiding AFs and exploring other options is no more an act of “revenge” than it is to avoid buying GM cars and considering other makes because the latter happens to be of better quality despite being a patriotic American. It is also the recognition of the fact that while the IR disparity places much competitive pressure on AMs to evolve, there is an utter lack of competitive pressure on AFs thus rendering them unfit for AMs who have chosen to evolve. Hence, AMs must look elsewhere.

    4. By choosing to “shop at the community store” almost exclusively, AMs are exascerbating the effects of the IR disparity and making the situation much worse for themselves.

    4. The IR disparity and AM’s general stubbornness in refusing to explore grounds beyond that of the “reservation” creates a “scarcity mentality”. This scarcity mentality leads to the Iago Complex and and a sense of victimization. I find that Jaewhan’s way of thinking cares way too much about what AFs think and precious little about how AMs may be freed and liberated from personal demons.

    5. I believe that society tells AMs that he is wrong for feeling the way that he does. As a result, he often tries to subdue and deny that aspect of himself. Don’t deny it. It is an integral part of who you are. It is an expression of your humanity. Don’t be ashamed of it. Embrace it and harness it. Learn to channel the pain and the anger to be a catalyst and motivation for your growth, liberation, and empowerment.

  154. @ Kobukson

    Proverbs 16:5 When a man’s ways please God, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.

  155. King,

    Your knowledge of the Bible impresses me.

    Kobukson,

    Appreciate the response, but you got me all wrong! :) THIS is exactly why I think we should podcast, man!!!

    Really,

    1. I center on you guys, not AF. I’m looking for solutions for you! This is a site that focuses on both the empowerment of men and women, but in terms of our conversations, I’m totally about you and urbs!

    2. My concern is also that the AM is divided against himself!

    2.5: I agree with this. I’m not trying to appease or become an apologist to anyone.

    3. Well, I’m not about theology–y’all know that. I don’t buy that “the latter happens to be of better quality.” See my latest post:

    http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/07/the-community-store-experience/

    4. I don’t think it’s possible to care too much about what women think, but I agree with you about the scarcity mentality.

    5. I agree with you 100% on this!

    Kobu, we’re mostly in agreement…I think.

    Let’s do a podcast.

  156. Haha!

    Rev. King, if that graphics design thing doesn’t work out, I think you have a good second career path there!

  157. “Past their prime and full of baggage.” The reason it’s “un-PC” is because it’s offensive and hurtful. A man who is over the age of 25 and has never had rich, rewarding relationships with women would fit that description as well, “past their prime and full of baggage.”

    I am the OP. I take offense to that. Is it my fault how I grew up and how society have treated me? Is it so bad to be late bloomer for a guy? For guys, we have to face rejections and mockery from women. It is easy for women to put on some makeup and look pretty. For us, we have to muster up the courage to confront sometime humiliation rejection. For women, all they do is say yes to engage in “meaningful” relationship.

  158. @John,

    Leon was right: you were kind and brave enough to share your personal experience and you do deserve a bit more respect, if not sympathy.

    There’s nothing wrong with being a late bloomer. It just meant that it took a little longer for you to mature. You now have both the drive and the means to get what you want and improve yourself and your life.

    There’s misunderstandings on the part of both men and women, but you’re right: women have no idea of the difficulty of being an Asian man in certain situations. You’re expected to be confident, competent and outgoing, and if you don’t come across that way, then both men and women will treat you as if you’re defective and unworthy of common courtesy.

    Some women can be a little mean when they reject men, because these women are being hit on all the time. It’s like constantly being bothered by door to door salesmen and telemarketers. So I understand to some degree why they can be rather blunt, judgmental and down right rude in their comments.

    Anyway a good book to read about the difficulties of being a guy in certain situations is “The Self-Made Man.” It’s about the author, a lesbian who decided to present herself as a man for year and half. She dated a number of women as a man, and she had some interesting observations on some of the dating difficulties men face.

  159. okay, so I didn’t read all 174 comments.

    but here’s my two cents anyway:

    I’ll have to say that I’m alot like Dan. And I wouldn’t necessarily say that it’s a matter of *liking* Asian women as it is not really having a preference. During my dating years, my non-asian gf’s outnumbered my asian ones 4-1 (I kept the revolving door on my relationships very well oiled :)). I was no pimp, by any means. I’m about average-looking, smarter than the average bear, with *just enough* charm and confidence to keep my weekends busy. But the point I’m trying to make is that my credentials didn’t really matter when it came to my dating choices. It had more to do with my approach and perspective on dating.

    It’s not that I’m addicted, or can’t wean myself off of Asian women. By why should I exclude any potential mates based merely on race alone? I don’t believe that it necessarily makes me a weaker person, or *chained* to Asian women as you put it :).

    And just for everyone’s information, *bat-shit crazy* comes in all different colors. Asian women aren’t immune from this phenomenon, and I wouldn’t put up with it just for the sake of keeping my kids’ ethnicities *pure*.

  160. The issue I see with this is your working with the assumption that there is a significant minority of the white female population that is willing to date asian men if only we’d step up. The problem being there is not.

    The few white women I’ve met who are interested in asian guys seem to be the unfortunate combination of the nerdy plain jane girl. Quite a bit like their male counterpart actually.

  161. “The issue I see with this is your working with the assumption that there is a significant minority of the white female population that is willing to date asian men if only we’d step up.”

    Why exactly should this be narrowed down to only the “white female population” alternative?

  162. Don’t know if anyone is still reading this, but I just found it today on the bus and it was a very interesting read. Sorry to the guy who lost his virginity to a girl with an STD, that blows.

    For those of you who still read this, I suggest moving out of USA. I’ve moved out to Europe for over 2 years now and the fresh start was something that I really needed and did me a lot of good. I have to say the whole AFWM thing exists everywhere but a bit differently. The only AFWM couples I’ve seen so far are the ones where the girl were not raised locally but brought up in poor conditions, not like in the states where AAF are the ones who also reject AM. Asians who grow up here are extremely skilled at their parent’s language (male and female) and are proud of their roots. I never saw that in the states. ABC’s never liked talking to me in Chinese.

    You will also be surprised that the reputation of USA is very poor. Most of you probably have an idea of the reputation of the government of China in the states. Well the reputation of USA’s government in Europe is about the same.

    So my tip is to keep up your Asian roots, and get rid of your American ones……physically. Sounds a little like running away from your problems I know.

  163. This thread is like the phoenix.

    Have to agree with some of the points revealed in the opening post way up there. For example, many or most of the guys who are most disgruntled are the ones who are, ‘addicted’ to Asian females. To date a variety would be liberating, shall we say. And even if you fancy Asian females in particular, experiment with dating out and see if you are still the diehard fan you’ve always been.
    A good by product of dating out is that you’ve left the old comfort zone and expanded it to include non Asian females. This will give you a shot of confidence and Voila! Asian females will smell the confidence and begin to look at you in a non loserish way.

    But by then, you will not give it the weight that you did before because now you have the wings to fly like an eagle. You will be on a more equal footing with the Asian female and she will definitely sit up and take notice.

    So good luck with your pursuits!

  164. @ HKL

    Get out of Europe before the domino economic crashes occur. The Euro Zone is headed for some very inevitable bumps and it’s going to be ugly soon.

  165. It might get uglier in America. If that were not the case, then bills like NDAA 2012 and CISPA would not have been attempted to be passed by stealth.

  166. ^ America is on a path, and it’s very similar to the path that Europe is currently on. But I believe that Europe will collapse financially first. It’s not even a much of a secret any more. It’s more of a given that the Euro Zone will collapse economically (unless there is unforeseen miracle), the only question is how bad of a mega hit will the rest of the world markets take as a result. But Europe is going to take a long time to recover. It currently has NONE of the resources it needs to pull itself out of an economic collapse.

    As for the NDAA 2012 and CISPA attempts, the noose tightens. But worse things have already been passed and enacted in Europe, it just isn’t newsworthy there anymore.

  167. “The whole thing looks like a very twisted version of musical chairs, doesn’t it?”

    Why does this matter to sociopaths who only objective is to get the next fix of money euphoria?

  168. @ Chr

    Because the money, more than anything else, is ‘the system’ that affects everything else.

  169. @ King

    Yes, and what can the general masses do to stop with what’s going on right now? Not much I would say, unless we rethink our values in relation to money.

  170. Whoa.

    http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Showbiz/Story/A1Story20120530-349290.html

    “Zhang is reportedly under investigation by the Chinese government and barred from leaving the country.

    Hong Kong’s Apple daily and other Chinese media reported that the pair was first introduced by Bo’s associate, Xu Ming, 41, who is the founder and chairman of Dalian Shide Group.

    Sources say Xu confessed to paying Zhang 6 million yuan (S$1.2 million) in 2007, to have sex with her for the first time.

    He later negotiated a deal for Bo to have sex with Zhang, for 10 million yuan (S$2 million). “

    I’m surprised by how this Bo Xilai thing has exploded. I’m not sure how much I trust the Chinese media, but this thing is exploding like crazy.

  171. They’re taking a lot of pains to destroy Bo Xilai publicly. He may even be executed now.

    With moral outrage, anything can be permissible.

  172. The slanderng of Bo in Western and Hong Kong news media tells me that Chinese government is owned by the West now. The Western media has never so concerted with Chinese government before, it again puts their credit and ethic on the line to report a lots of false information. The Ferrari story of Bo Gua Gua is the biggest lie by WSJ.

    If China has democracy, it will be a lot more easier for the West to manipulate the politics in China.

  173. Is Zhang Ziyi just a pawn in all this? Two million dollars is a lot of money, but she’s already rich. See, this is the problem with the lack of a free press. Who really knows what’s going on?

  174. Zhang Ziyi is definitely a pawn in all of this. I personally don’t care if Bo Xilai was caught on video performing all sorts of wild and unusual sexual acts with Zhang Ziyi, their private lives are none of our business so why should we care so much? (Unless we secretly want to watch and join in…) This is a thorough political assassination, and they wouldn’t do it if he did not have significant support.

    More interestingly his wife has been charged with murder and faces the death penalty. It may be good to watch how the trial proceeds and the strength of the prosecution’s case.

  175. Pingback: Look-isms | bigWOWO

  176. @ Byron

    “In fact, I would challenge every Asian male reader of this blog to seriously think about who you are in relation to Asian women. Do you like Asian women? Do you find them very attractive?”

    You mentioned the 3 casebook examples, Dan, Dave and Kenji who date White women, yet you failed to address the Asian woman’s point of view. Do Asian women find these guys attractive? One sticking point which Asian dudes like to bring up when they date WFs, is that Asian women aren’t into them and so they go IR which is absolutely BS. It’s really a personal vendetta that a lot of these guys have, because they don’t like to see Asian women having all the upperhand/privilege when it comes to dating interracially and want to prove something. The biggest problem with these men, which also applies to the women, is that they are confused, especially with Dave; he has no fucking clue what he really wants out of life. Many of them try to assimilate blindly into mainstream American culture without questioning their motives, and this shows their idiocy and the tensions they’ve caused in the AA community.

    Only single unwanted Asian guys fret over the IR disparity.

  177. “Only single unwanted Asian guys fret over the IR disparity.”

    What about YOURSELF, Chr? What about yourself?

    Tell us about yourself.

    ROFLMAO

  178. Chinesmom wrote: The slanderng of Bo in Western and Hong Kong news media tells me that Chinese government is owned by the West now. The Western media has never so concerted with Chinese government before, it again puts their credit and ethic on the line to report a lots of false information. The Ferrari story of Bo Gua Gua is the biggest lie by WSJ.

    Just ran into this story, wow, not sure if it’s true or not but looks like something you’d find in a horror movie. Talk about sensationalizing something.

    http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20120819000054&cid=1101

    http://infocult.typepad.com/infocult/2012/08/house-of-plastic.html

  179. When you commit murder the general idea is to disappear any potential trails. Not to leave them.

    My guess is that it’s not true, unless the alleged murderer has a pattern of such perverse behavior manifested in other ways.

    The slander campaign against Bo is sophisticated enough to use tabloids to prey on the insecurities and fears of Chinese citizens who wouldn’t know better.

  180. I don’t know if plastination leaves any viable DNA behind, in amounts enough to do a DNA test. But there are other forensic methods to identify the body, of course. Then there are also records. An outfit like von Hagen’s must have impeccable records, and those can be verified.

  181. “Why wouldn’t you just get a DNA test to see if it is her? They have those in China, right?”

    Why would we even want to apply western investigation methods or standards to those scumbags in the middle kingdom? They love to counterfeit American products and practice a completely different judicial system that is ruled on fear and intimidation, instead of one that based on justice or righteousness.

  182. @ Byron

    “If Asian men could somehow write-off Asian women, a number of positive things would happen. First, we’d take power away from the Kingstonians and anti-Asian-male media racism. Second, we wouldn’t feel as dumb for beating our heads against a wall that doesn’t seem to budge. Third, there would be more Asian men dating White women, and as a result, we would probably would get more respect from Asian women”.

    You said: Problem is that most Asian guys can’t do it.

    I say: Yes, it’s because the average Asian guy isn’t physically attractive enough to get the White women he really likes where he could afford to ignore any Asian woman who comes his way. Of course most Asian guys can’t do it, because only a select few with good looks can pull this shit off.

  183. Chr, we already know about all your problems, the first hundred times you told us.

    You’re ugly and sort of limp, and you “can’t do it”. We get it already.

    Did you need some kind of help or are you just whining about yourself yet again?

  184. “Chr, we already know about all your problems, the first hundred times you told us”.

    I don’t think I ever mentioned any of my problems here. You and your sidekick are the only ones who say I’m ugly and you are the ONLY one who says I’m limp.

  185. Chr wrote: I don’t think I ever mentioned any of my problems here. You and your sidekick are the only ones who say I’m ugly and you are the ONLY one who says I’m limp.

    You haven’t directly but indirectly, what you talk about we can put a hypothesis of what your problems are. You are incredibly angry towards Asian women and Asian men. Few things we mentioned you never refuted,
    1. You never had a girlfriend, been on a date or been intimate with a woman.
    2. Your ideal woman is a white woman. Though, all the white women in your life have treated you like garbage or as a sexless friend. Although you get intimidated by your surroundings (other white guys giving you a weird look) while you have any social interaction with them .The only times you deal with white women is at work and the fantasy women you watch in Porno movies.
    3. You are jealous of Asian women who can date white men.
    4. You feel the interracial disparity is the Asian Man’s biggest problem
    5. You’re just a troll who goes onto boards to start controversy when there isn’t any.
    6. You’re a stealth marketer for PUA using the whole, underhandedly saying I don’t think it works yet posting youtube videos where guys saying supposedly they are happy with PUA.
    7. People who supposedly agree with your twisted mind are afraid to meet with you because you freak them out.
    8. You blame your crappy life on being Asian not on how you can improve yourself. (i.e., gym, plastic surgery, getting a personality)
    9. You feel your life will improve drastically if you had a pretty white girlfriend. (a train of thought only those who have never been in a real relationship think or watch one too many porno films.
    10. You seek attention cause you have no real friends to interact with in real life.
    You may never have said you’re ugly but when I read your posts, I’m imagining an elephant man looking guy that no woman wants to get near typing on a computer. Sorry. That’s just how it is.

  186. Don’t forget that he’s not Asian, but just a deluded, mentally ill white frustrated man who needs to troll to feel good.

  187. “You haven’t directly but indirectly, what you talk about we can put a hypothesis of what your problems are. You are incredibly angry towards Asian women and Asian men. Few things we mentioned you never refuted”

    And what happens if I refute all those things you’ve listed.

    “You feel the interracial disparity is the Asian Man’s biggest problem”.

    Then why does the owner of this site posts many blogs about it? Then why is Hollywood and the portrayals of Asians such a big deal to many Asian guys? Would Asian dudes care about Hollywood, if they had all their shit together, and that includes their sexuality?

  188. Chr wrote: Then why does the owner of this site posts many blogs about it? Then why is Hollywood and the portrayals of Asians such a big deal to many Asian guys? Would Asian dudes care about Hollywood, if they had all their shit together, and that includes their sexuality?

    Dude, for months and months, you are the only one talking about this. As a matter of fact, I think there are more posts telling you what an idiot you are than posts where people are complaining about the so called interracial dating disparity. Go back to your PUAs and tell them you failed miserably to market their garbage. This blog talks about a lot of things not just interracial dating.

    Chr wrote And what happens if I refute all those things you’ve listed.

    You still haven’t refuted any of those claims. You don’t need to. People can read between the lines of who you are by what you write. It isn’t that difficult. You crave attention cause your life is boring. Go out and make some friends. You tried making friends here but got shunned. Go out to the real world and do it.

  189. “Dude, for months and months, you are the only one talking about this. As a matter of fact, I think there are more posts telling you what an idiot you are than posts where people are complaining about the so called interracial dating disparity”.

    Oh yeah, yet you fail or deny to acknowledge it as a problem for many Asian men out there or that’s what it seems. There are many sites of these guys crying about it.

    And what about the recent incident at UCLA, which is your part of the town, buddy. Who’s the person responsible for it? All I can say it’s not me, and the Asian gender issues out there are more serious than here on the East Coast. They are blaming a frustrated Asian dude for posting these sexist remarks about Asian women being sluts for White guys, which of course is convincing, given the fact that Asian men have a history of whining about it. Another blow for us as the media continues to harp on this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w_J4vT2W-c&hd=0

  190. “Go back to your PUAs and tell them you failed miserably to market their garbage. This blog talks about a lot of things not just interracial dating”.

    There was a lot of mentioning of PUA before I came to this site. A lot of the guys who posted on this site probably dabbled with PUA including Urb and Kobu.

  191. Chr wrote: There was a lot of mentioning of PUA before I came to this site. A lot of the guys who posted on this site probably dabbled with PUA including Urb and Kobu.

    Yes but they haven’t talked about it in ages and don’t stealth market it to death like you do. What is PUA giving you to do this for them? If you are only getting a free bootcamp, that is a complete gyp.

    I laugh at their snake oil marketing. Sure they’ll say things like my students are w girls or a girl went back with him to his apt. But if you look closely, there isn’t ever a mention of what happened afterwards. The girl who went to his apartment, he didn’t mention they were with others and there was never any intention of her sleeping with him. PUAs report things vaguely and bend the truth more than anyone. That is some of the slimy garbage PUAs try and sell. You Chr, fell for it and is still falling for it big time!

  192. Now that I’m on a tangent, I’ll talk more about PUA.

    I’ve read some strange stuff on this blog about PUA, including someone mentioning Jesus Christ was an Alpha Male…I know PUAs love to use the word Alpha but the word they need to get more familiar with is this one, “rationalization.” Those guys need excuses no matter how “far off” they may be to justify why they follow something so useless.

    BTW, I see there were quite a few PUA posts from years ago. Any of these guys who supported it are now in any better situation than they were with women? I’ve asked this question before but have heard nothing but crickets chirping.

    Or did it make you even stranger, and repelled women even more? A system that only works for 1 out of 100 isn’t something that you can say works. Any system will work 1 out of 100 times but my question is, can you call that system effective?

    In the end, I don’t blame some of these guys. The world is a tough place and not everything goes right for most people. Who I do blame are the gurus lying, uh, I mean “Marketing” to guys who don’t know any better.

  193. Mr. Moro,

    Didn’t I say PUA especially for Asians guys is like putting lipstick on a pig?

    I’ll be very serious with you. LA K-town being a desirable place is good news to me. If Asians can just fucking get off the delusional trip by blindly assimilating into White mainstream and start pouring talent into their own communities, this could be a great trend. How many times do we need to know of some random Asian chump or chic whining about did this and that, and not being able to fit in with White folks or try to aspire to their version of the American dream?

  194. “That is some of the slimy garbage PUAs try and sell. You Chr, fell for it and is still falling for it big time!”

    I have neither taken any PUA course nor I have been associated with it in any way. The reason why I bring it up is because I get to see Asian PUAs around my way quite so often. I don’t know any of these guys and I don’t talk to them. My city isn’t a LA where it’s an urban sprawl and no one congregates outside on the sidewalks, it’s a walking city of 8 million, where everyone is living on top of each other and I get to see what people are doing in the public throughout the day. I just find it rather disturbing, if not odd, how a few of these Asian guys that I’ve come across from the past are now PUAs. An Asian guy who used to run several language social meetups that I was once part of, was hitting on girls in one of these fashion shows with several other Asian guys. I was like wow, and shocked how a guy who created several social groups, which did have a large following of women, had to resort to PUA tactics. He must had a lot of problems meeting women despite his successes in creating those social events. Could you imagine your coach or pyschologist doing something like this? But then, how is it surprising given the fact that a lot of Americanized Asian men have trouble dating.

  195. Haven’t seen any PUA defenders pop up here in awhile. My thought is that like the dinosaur, the Asian PUA will be going away soon. Not surprised either. None of the guys who touted it years ago are not in any better situation then they were before they took a bootcamp.

  196. And I’d like to point out for a movement that is so against Asian women telling them they won’t date an Asian Man. They have no problem taking money from white rice chasers wanting know how to date only Asian women.

    Hypocrite much?

    The Asian PUA movement has more holes than swiss cheese.

    Read somewhere some guru was told by an Asian girl in school she doesn’t date asian guys. I believe he left out the words, short, fat and ugly asian guys who have weird peacocking hair.

  197. “Read somewhere some guru was told by an Asian girl in school she doesn’t date asian guys. I believe he left out the words, short, fat and ugly asian guys who have weird peacocking hair.”

    Ha!!!

  198. “Haven’t seen any PUA defenders pop up here in awhile. My thought is that like the dinosaur, the Asian PUA will be going away soon. Not surprised either. None of the guys who touted it years ago are not in any better situation then they were before they took a bootcamp”.

    But I’m sure you know many Asian men have trouble dating. That’s why Urb was asking if there is another solution. My answer is probably NO, let those unattractive Asian guys fade into oblivion. If you failed the litmus test with Asian women, how is it possible that you are able to pass it with White girls? Granted, there is a very small subset of Asian men who could afford not to date their own women.

    I’ll tell you this, the dating game here in NYC has no place for most Asian guys. Just going into any non-Asian social event, most girls wouldn’t bat an eye on Asian dudes. That’s the problem, and this is the reason why some Asian guys would think PUA has a solution.

    But here are the 3 choices for those Asian guys who are struggling -

    1) Believe in PUA, or

    2) Believe Asian men are warmly welcomed in America, or

    3) Disengage from American Society and go back to your roots

    The third choice is of course not delusional and realistic.

    @ King

    Back to the previous point when we were talking about how minority men have trouble meeting White women. This should even be part of the discussion, because Black and Latin Men don’t have the issues with their women shunning them. It’s a lot more pertinent to Asian men because of this.

  199. The only person who has trouble dating is YOU. You have never kissed a girl, touched a breast or had a girlfriend.

    I completely agree that mentally ill ugly white men like you should remove yourself from the gene pool. That will do the human race a favor.

  200. Chr wrote: An Asian guy who used to run several language social meetups that I was once part of, was hitting on girls in one of these fashion shows with several other Asian guys. I was like wow, and shocked how a guy who created several social groups, which did have a large following of women, had to resort to PUA tactics.

    Once again, you aren’t giving enough detail. Could the guy be not well groomed, fat, short? Who cares if he created social groups? If he doesn’t present himself as an attractive person, no girl is going to date you whether your’e white, black or Asian.

    All these guys who seek PUA are looking for some miracle shortcut that doesn’t exit. PUA gurus are slimy. All they care about is making a dollar. They hope Asian guys really do suck cause that’s how they’ll make their money.

    I remember reading one of the message boards awhile ago and some rice chaser who took a bootcamp was asking that the guru should write a book that helps white guys get asian girls. Did the guru get mad at that? Nope. He’s happy to take his money. As a matter of fact, I read some of this guy’s field reports and he used words of when sleeping w an Asian girl, submissive, dragon lady, to describe her. Not one guy on those boards said a word to this guy, telling him he’s a stupid racist douchebag.

    You can’t equate PUA with Asian Activism. You’ll see the hypocrisy if you look deep enough. That’s the biggest problem I have with those guys. They bend the truth to sell their product. It’s just not cool and unscrupulous.

  201. “Once again, you aren’t giving enough detail. Could the guy be not well groomed, fat, short? Who cares if he created social groups? If he doesn’t present himself as an attractive person, no girl is going to date you whether your’e white, black or Asian”.

    This guy created many social groups that attracted mostly Black and Latin women, a few Asian women, and almost no White women. He was about 5’6, so that would be on the short side. I have to say a lot of these women who went to his social groups were very friendly with him. If he was not well groomed or fit, I don’t think he would have gotten the kind of reception he was getting. Then about a year or so, I saw him at a park hitting on White women with a bunch of Asian guys during the Mercedes Benz fashion show that takes place every year. From what I’ve heard, this specific event becomes a PUA playground like many of the night clubs out there. What’s your analysis of him? What else could he have done besides resorting to PUA?

    “You can’t equate PUA with Asian Activism. You’ll see the hypocrisy if you look deep enough. That’s the biggest problem I have with those guys. They bend the truth to sell their product. It’s just not cool and unscrupulous”.

    First of all, it’s a business so that’s NOT activism. Second, most of these guys could have found better alternatives to meeting women, even if they seem less promising. I have seen a few dorky White guys go into all Asian events and have gotten a few numbers from Asian women.

  202. Well to tell you the truth, if you want to hit on only white girls, the worst thing you can go out with a group of Asian guys. People of other races sometimes feel intimidated when they see a group of whether it’s black, Latino or Asian coming at them all at once and hitting on them. When you do that, it puts it in their subconscious minds you only want to be around Asian and Asian women. Not saying that is the only reason they reject you but it could be one of them. That’s why those guys who go out on bootcamps for the most part fail. Of course who the hell told them to go only after white girls. This is different when a group of white guys go after Asian girls because white people are the majority in this country.

    You don’t know anything about women if you think the only choice is to resort to PUA. Again, it shows you are a very inexperienced individual who has not dated much in his life if ever. There are tons of ways to get a girl one being dumb luck at times. Talk to people you know and find out how they met, lots of times it’s based on being at the right place at the right time.

    I know PUA gurus are a business but when Asian ones try to sell their product saying they are doing this for Activism. They date white girls to teach those Asian chicks that rejected them. That’s what bothers me, gurus cheating their own to make a dollar.

  203. “if you want to hit on only white girls, the worst thing you can go out with a group of Asian guys. People of other races sometimes feel intimidated when they see a group of whether it’s black, Latino or Asian coming at them all at once and hitting on them. When you do that, it puts it in their subconscious minds you only want to be around Asian and Asian women. Not saying that is the only reason they reject you but it could be one of them”.

    Do you think because of APB, now many women subconciously see Asian guys as a bunch of PUA D-bags?

  204. Chr wrote: Do you think because of APB, now many women subconciously see Asian guys as a bunch of PUA D-bags?

    Nope. No one knows who this guy is.

    Chr, you need to get out and experience more things.
    You asking me that question shows that you have not. That is said to you in the most on insulting and sincere way I can.

  205. and I don’t think many women subconciously see Asian guys as a bunch of PUA D-bags. But Asian guys I know who are trying to get with white girls, they never go and hang out with a group of Asian guys. I’d imagine it 100 times worse if you are with a group of Asians who are dressed like PUA douche bags.

  206. And now for the most insulting version:

    “Do you think because of APB, now many women subconciously see Asian guys as a bunch of PUA D-bags?”

    To find out you first need to step out of the house.

  207. “Chr, you need to get out and experience more things. You asking me that question shows that you have not. That is said to you in the most on insulting and sincere way I can”.

    I told you that I get to see Asian PUAs around my way. Unlike LA, everything in NYC is huddled together into one spot, everyone know where all the hangouts are. The clubs, bars, bookstores and parks are all within the city’s confine. Imagine you have to see these guys in action just about everywhere you go.

    Check this spot out:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7X1FLzDcX0

    The guy in the old video looks like an Asian PUA who is from some other company than APB. And guess what, I see Asian dudes in this same fucking spot hitting on White girls all the time. I bypass this area just about everyday. Sometimes these guys stare at me with anxiety and suspicion. I would laugh at them and they would turn their heads when I pass them. There aren’t that many Asian dudes roaming around the streets of Manhattan, but when you see isolated events like this frequently, it makes you wonder if there is an overrepresentation of Asian guys who have to resort to this.

    It’s FUCKING SAD to see these Asian sorry asses around you. Just the other day, I saw a short Asian dude with sunglasses and peacock hair heading to one of the other parks in midtown Manhattan. I think I could make a safe bet that he was doing the same thing somewhere else.

  208. Chr: It’s FUCKING SAD to see these Asian sorry asses around you.

    If that’s what you think of them, I would imagine they think the same of you. Especially the white girls who you covet.

    I’m not clicking on any stealth marketing links from you. Only an idiot would think in a city of 8,000,000 people, some Asian guy who not even .00000000000000001% of the city has ever heard of would have an influence on how certain people view other people.

    Stop going on websites to see how the world is. Go out and experience it.

    You are the only Asian guy constantly whining about this.

    As I said earlier, you REALLY need to get out more or move to another city if this stuff is all you care about.

    Raguel may have something there calling you a troll. No one can be this naive about the world.

  209. it’s been weeks since Chr tried to unsuccessfully goad everyone here into another snoozer talk about interracial dating and no one has joined in on any substantial talk.

    Shows who the only person out of 8,000,000 in NY who actually cares about talking about this shit. Nice try though. You’ll have to funnel your hate toward Asian woman and Asian men through other means.

  210. “Shows who the only person out of 8,000,000 in NY who actually cares about talking about this shit. Nice try though. You’ll have to funnel your hate toward Asian woman and Asian men through other means”.

    And how many Asian guys are out there in LA? A lot more than NYC, and why are they not here on this site to talk about pertinent Asian American issues or even refute me like you do?

    You guys just had an incident in UCLA regarding Asian women White worshipping. I’m sure a lot of the Asian guys out there are talking about it in some other board.

  211. Chr: You guys just had an incident in UCLA regarding Asian women White worshipping. I’m sure a lot of the Asian guys out there are talking about it in some other board.

    Why do I care if you flew all the way from NY to fan the flames of hate. You see how much support everyone including many Asian guys are giving their Asian Sisters? I guess it backfired, didn’t it? Anytime someone like you posts something anonymously like that, the best thing is to laugh at how cowardly someone is or ignore it completely. Thus I think is the reason Byron hasn’t talked about it once.

    No one cares about this shit as much as you do.

  212. “You see how much support everyone including many Asian guys are giving their Asian Sisters? I guess it backfired, didn’t it?”

    How did it backfired? No Asian dude is stupidly foolish to act like it was good thing in public because it will make look they are the ones behind it.

  213. What you did backfired because absolutely no one is talking about it on this blog but you, the perpetrator. You’re so desperate to hate Asian women, you’ll resort to anything. It doesn’t surprise me.

  214. Chr, you sound like you have been defeated my poor Asian brother. Your concerns are valid but your response is rather lacking.

    Try not to hate, it will only imprison you and in the end it will consume you. Do you really want to believe that Asian women have abandoned Asian men? don’t get comfortable with idea, it’s a miniscule view of the world. You will never reach the full extent of living an exciting life.

    I don’t hate Asian women for dating white men but I do feel a little sad for the ones I see out there. It stirs up a sad feelings. Why? because quite often, these couples are not usually the best kind or even healthy. No hating here but when every time I see it, I feel as though something was lost or missing. When others say ‘aww they look so cute’ I then think ‘what a canned response from well trained monkeys’.

    It’s almost as demented as people saying mixed kids are better looking.

    BUT ….as much as I do not support Asian women to hooking up with white guys, sometimes I am sympathetic, sometimes we can see that an Asian woman with a white guy because she may not in a good position herself, she cannot pick or chose.
    This is inequality.

    Most Asian women, I know see it as more favorable to score a sexy and successful Asian man and vice versa. It’s only natural.

    My conclusion on the overall probability of Asians dating Asian is determined by some of the following things:

    1. The more ‘Asian’ a person is, the more likely they will establish a natural relationship with a partner from the same ethnic origin (obvious).

    2. Asian men/women who have had a good experience and in-tuned with in her people during their childhood, this likely pursue her future love to be of the same ethnic origin (the same can be said with AM)

    3. If an Asian female grew up with a good relationship and bonding with her maternal father, it is very likely she will seek the same qualities in an Asian partner, resembling some of the positive characteristics seen in her father.

    4. Environment and media influence shaping our views
    5. Racism and demographics.

    The dating decision can be supported by many other factors e.g economic, security, money, companionship, character or even just desperation. Also, we can never forget the category of the infamous shameful worshipers of ‘white male privilege’.

    So what to do now? how are we ever going to restore balance to the universe and oust such superficiality of dating betrayal or crazy IR standards?

    We should find the root of the problem and fix it. I’m sure most AA collectively agree that media representation is important. It actually affects our behavior, our aspirations, how we socialize and how we see ourselves with our ideal partners.

    If you consume it, you become it or as Bruce Lee says, ‘I think, therefore I am’ (in positively context)

    This whole Asian men hating on Asian women is pathetic. Any Asian women who does deny Asian men, you should have a legit reason! For Asian males who only dating White women, is it real or is it vengeance? are you lack in dating options? you are also hurting some other Asian women too.

    This is like a backwards phenomena that hasn’t undergone social change.

    People, the world is changing, the global order certainly has, we are in need of social re-balance and the rotten political power structures are crumbling, the power is returning back to Asians. The global change will gradually trickle down into the social fabrics of your every day lives (through globalism). Yes people, it’s a different world now, the ‘white colonial utopia’ is gone.

    The baggage has been lifted off your shoulders, now. It’s all about confidence and esteem, what and how you will apply yourself, how you see yourself and how to pursue an opportunities. Asians need to be more influential.

    My heterosexual Asian people, male and females, men and women, love and respect each other more and grow together. Let’s start making more Asian babies and look to the future ^^

  215. Now Chr will try to troll Ed for his trouble. And that’s because he’s not Asian, but white. And also because the mental illness and obsessive compulsion is real.

    He hates Asian women because he never gets any attention even from women he thought would be easy.

  216. @ Ed

    “This whole Asian men hating on Asian women is pathetic. Any Asian women who does deny Asian men, you should have a legit reason! For Asian males who only dating White women, is it real or is it vengeance? are you lack in dating options? you are also hurting some other Asian women too”.

    I told these idiots that Asians would be better off disengaging themselves from the American mainstream. They wouldn’t have any of these problems that you are mentioning. Asian men will never have the success in dating White women like their female counterparts with White men. So the bets are off. If anything, it’s seems like an uphill battle for something that is highly questionable and it’s just not worth their time and money. Just look at those chumps who spend vast amount of dollars on PUA tactics so they can score a one nighter with a White woman.

  217. @chr

    Dude, you need to lighten up. YT women are not that special. Look at all the fat ass white girls on the arms of the black and brown studs you look up to. If they can do it, so can you!

    There’s no need to give up. There are enough big girls to go around! ;-)

  218. Haha! Interesting… So why do you think NY is a sock puppet, Chr.. and who do you think is channeling him. I have to admit I haven’t bumped into a commenter who tries so hard to be anti-Black in a little while.

  219. “Haha! Interesting… So why do you think NY is a sock puppet, Chr..”

    He seems to be one of those guys who was the most vocal about that black dude being denied at the NY nightclub. Other than that, he could be one of the other Asian posters who comes here regularly in the past….and on this board.

    His story about the Times Square experience is just fucking unbelievable which I alluded to.

  220. Ok, here’s the skinny; Asian gals are 80% on your side. If you’re Asian that is. If you’re not then who cares, right? Bunch a hoes anyway! Their loss and all that good stuff.
    You guys need to rise above it all. Do not lower yourself to their level. You’re better than that. One day they’ll come crawling on their knees and you’ll have the last laugh.
    You’ll see. Just hang tough and you will reap all the just desserts!

  221. “Ok, here’s the skinny; Asian gals are 80% on your side. If you’re Asian that is. If you’re not then who cares, right? Bunch a hoes anyway! Their loss and all that good stuff”.

    Byron said he goes to the gym. Gym is a predominantly White activity in NYC. Asian guys would be embarassed to be in the gyms because of this:

    80% of Asian females in NYC who hit the gym are White chasers.

    Then walking into a White residential neighborhood can be embarassing too.

    80% of Asian females who live in White neighborhoods, well, you get the picture.

    When was the last time you saw an Asian woman in Manhattan with a baby stroller with an Asian baby? It’s not 80% of the time.

    If you see a grumpy Asian woman in NYC, 80% of the time she’s longing for a White guy. We know self haters are consumed with negative thoughts.

    Last but not least, 80% of Asian women who engage in activities outside of their ethnic enclaves without an Asian guy, you can bet 80% of them are associated with Whites.

  222. Chr,

    Dude. There are Asian guys in the gym in NYC. When was the last time you stepped inside a gym?

    Okay, I need to move on and talk about something more serious. Shit, man, you really need to get out of your little apartment and see the world. It’s nothing like what you think it is.

  223. “Dude. There are Asian guys in the gym in NYC. When was the last time you stepped inside a gym?”

    The gyms in NYC have a tendency to attract Asian women working out with White guys. Asian dudes would feel somewhat awkward in them when they’re around. Does this mean there are no Asian guys in the gyms? No, of course not. I do see Asian dudes use them, but they will expect the the usual, which is AFs and White men working out together.

  224. Your obsessive compulsive dementia is getting worse, Chr. You know it’s all down hill from here.

    You know what to do to solve the problem.

  225. The gyms in NYC have a tendency to attract Asian women working out with White guys. Asian dudes would feel somewhat awkward in them when they’re around. Does this mean there are no Asian guys in the gyms? No, of course not. I do see Asian dudes use them, but they will expect the the usual, which is AFs and White men working out together.

    Weird. At my gym, I’ve only noticed two WM/AF couples, and about two AM/AF couples. That I can remember anyway…I’m usually focusing on my workout.

  226. “Weird. At my gym, I’ve only noticed two WM/AF couples, and about two AM/AF couples. That I can remember anyway…I’m usually focusing on my workout”.

    And what about all those single Asian dudes who have to see these WM/AF couples? I have to say two of these couples is an overrepresentation. Crunch Fitness by Astor Place is one of their favorite gyms where almost every Asian woman who hangs out there are with White guys. The same with David Barton up the block.

  227. I’ve never been to the gym with my wife or any other significant other. Never. It wouldn’t make sense to do so unless you’re dating a woman big enough to spot you. As usual, Chr, you make no sense.

  228. “It wouldn’t make sense to do so unless you’re dating a woman big enough to spot you.”

    ROFL!!!!

  229. “I’ve never been to the gym with my wife or any other significant other. Never. It wouldn’t make sense to do so unless you’re dating a woman big enough to spot you. As usual, Chr, you make no sense”.

    Well, apparently White guys and Asian women hit the gym together walking on the treadmills, they may not be lifting weights together, but they are doing other fitness activities together. And then there’s Asian women who flirt with White guys there.

    How does this not make any sense?

    Not only that, I see many of them jog together. Maybe you don’t jog together with your wife, but they do.

  230. Maybe if you got a girl of your own, you wouldn’t have to stalk other couples. Stop creeping everyone out. Have you sent away for APBs complete selected works? It may set you back a little but look at the potential windfall!

  231. NY wrote: Have you sent away for APBs complete selected works? It may set you back a little but look at the potential windfall!

    How is that a solution if APB can’t get a hot white girlfriend or wife himself. Sounds like a waste of money to me. I agree, Asian men don’t have a problem dating, but if you are fat short and ugly, y0u’re not going to get a Playboy model no matter what you say to a girl. Sorry, that’s not reality.

  232. Some things I read about APB and his and their methods, I took with a grain of salt. I’m not into PUA per se, as I’m considered what they refer to as ‘Natural’. Game was invented eons before PUA was even a twinkle in the eye.

    What I did like about PUA was that those guys discussed it in an intelligent manner. They saw a problem and they went about trying to correct it or deal with it somehow. So APB wants to try and make a little money to help cover expenses. I have no problem with that. If I needed it I’d pull out my own VISA and get the product myself. So I think it’s silly that people would balk at paying for possible keys to the kingdom.

    But you’re right. Looks have a lot to do with it. I’d be lying if I said I was ugly yet pull babes by the truckload. But there’s tons of guys with looks and not an ounce of game. There’s a bunch of 44 yr old virgins among them as well. But I think Chr may be hinting at the unfairness of White rice chasers who have no looks, no game but use racial dynamics as their in. Yes this is unfair and it sucks but we have brains and we have to figure how to beat the system.

    Consider how the Educational System keeps changing the SATs around because too many Asian s are beating the game. When they added ‘creative writing’ and other English related subjects, they thought it would screen out all the Asians.
    Well it did until the Asians figured how to crack it wide open and now they’re even leaner and meaner.
    Asians(or whoever)needs to crack this dating/mating thing wide open. And if APB offers a less than satisfactory deal, right now it seems tailor made for Asians. Mystery and those other PUArtists tailored their game for Whites and others who incidentally, ripped the whole system off the Japanese!

  233. I forgot to add, the Japanese/American IR stats are the highest on record. For those chronic complainers who happen to be Asian, and I do have my doubts in this regard as to their actual ethnicity). The Japanese/American females marry out at 50.2% while the Japanese American males marry white girls at 52%!

    So there you have it. The Japanese American men snatch up white women even more then the Japanese American females snatch up White men!!
    How’s that statistic for all you would be White babe fans out there!? If the Japanese can do it does that mean they are better looking, more game, more superior than you!?
    Then why are they pulling White girls by the bushel basketful while you’re sitting home in your mom’s basement feeling pity for yourself!?

  234. “Maybe if you got a girl of your own, you wouldn’t have to stalk other couples. Stop creeping everyone out. Have you sent away for APBs complete selected works? It may set you back a little but look at the potential windfall!”

    All you have to do is walk around NYC to see all these couples in front of your eyes. No need to stalk. But most important, just check it out the single Asian guys. Many of them don’t look so happy. It must suck to suck in the looks department and get no play from non-Asian women, and get ignored even in casual non-Asian social functions. That’s why many Asian men cling to Asian women. It’s their only hope.

  235. “Then why are they pulling White girls by the bushel basketful while you’re sitting home in your mom’s basement feeling pity for yourself!?”

    One thing you forgot to even elaborate is that gaming White girls here in NYC is a lot harder than the West Coast where those Japanese men are abundant. I’ve been to the West Coast, and those White girls over there are just a fucking breeze to chat and game compared to here. I was in San Diego not too long ago, and I was already at it when I was in the airport, where these White girls were just smiling at me.

    Asian guys from California who come to NYC for work, or for school get a rude awakening how White people here tend to be very arrogrant and condescending towards Asians, which makes things harder for them. NYC is just a different beast.

  236. “But you’re right. Looks have a lot to do with it. I’d be lying if I said I was ugly yet pull babes by the truckload. But there’s tons of guys with looks and not an ounce of game. There’s a bunch of 44 yr old virgins among them as well. But I think Chr may be hinting at the unfairness of White rice chasers who have no looks, no game but use racial dynamics as their in”.

    I thought most Asian women were ugly, especially the ones with rice chasers. Maybe I’m wrong. If anything, those virgin guys want to score a Playboy model, and are just hanging in there even in their 40s.

  237. “How is that a solution if APB can’t get a hot white girlfriend or wife himself. Sounds like a waste of money to me”.

    There’s one guy who used his method and became his spokesperson with his own podcast. I heard he’s married now, thanks to APB.

    Dude, most Asian guys tend not to be attractive. How are you going to score hot women if you’re not even on their league in the looks department?

  238. I’ve seen Asian guys every weekend here in NYC, some with unbelievably hot babes. Once was at Astor Place, they were in front of me when I noticed they were together. I have to admit she was an easy 10 blonde, hot figure, while he was about a 4.5 on his best day! Of course I was thinking he must be rich or something. What right did he have scoring way, way over his head like that!? This was just last week so it remains vivid in my mind.

    It’s easier to score White girls here in the East Coast than Cali and here’s why; Asians flood the place in Cali and you’ll notice that it’s very Balkanized. That is, there are certain places Asians go and do not go. Like in San Fran, the coolest places would be Chestnut St, Fillmore and Union St. Notice they’re top heavy with Cracka type Whites. In New York, it’s not Balkanized. People mix and mingle just about anywhere which means the comfort level is cool. In San Francisco the first thing I noticed was how there are many pockets of White resistance, White strongholds, if you will. So it’s not as conducive to plucking those blondes right out of the clutches of the White Aryan Resistance, in a manner of speaking.

    But yea, Asian guy/White girl dating is heavy on the weekends in NYC. Girls are everywhere because they’re all concentrated in Manhattan. So I’ve seen a lot of mismatched IR Asian guys with stone cold lookers. It makes me wanna go up and start spitting game at her since it’d be like taking candy from a baby but I don’t. He did the heavy lifting so he deserves the spoils.

  239. “It’s easier to score White girls here in the East Coast than Cali and here’s why; Asians flood the place in Cali and you’ll notice that it’s very Balkanized”.

    It’s easier in Cali if you are a good looking dude. They just come to you so to speak. As a visitor, just tell them you are from New York, and ask them what they think of Asians in CA. Tell them you’re an outsider and also different, and then ask for their number and/or meetup. Not really much heavy lifting if you ask me. I’m only speaking for myself, and only in neighborhoods where they’re not Asian infested.

    “I have to admit she was an easy 10 blonde, hot figure, while he was about a 4.5 on his best day!”

    “But yea, Asian guy/White girl dating is heavy on the weekends in NYC”.

    Where are you smoking your joint? A few here and there out of the countless AF/WM couples. Single Asian dudes and the FOB crowds prowling the streets is more like it.

    “So I’ve seen a lot of mismatched IR Asian guys with stone cold lookers. It makes me wanna go up and start spitting game at her since it’d be like taking candy from a baby but I don’t. He did the heavy lifting so he deserves the spoils”.

    I have seen some ugly ass Asian mofos with decent White chicks, but they are a very small minority. A few of them have come to my office to used my services before, but I don’t see them again the following year. You wouldn’t like it if your White chick was flirting with another Asian guy. That’s why I don’t associate with many Asian guys, and they don’t want to associate with me. Other than that, they kind of leery of another Asian knowing how much they earn, bank accounts etc…

  240. Look at this cretin talk.

    This is the sum of everything he cares about.

    A wasted mind for a wasted life.

  241. Well, Chr, I dont even know where to begin tackling all these items you brought up. I guess I’m not in tune with all these ‘single Asian dudes’ walking around w/o a date because I’m too busy checking out the girls and not how their action is going. Never mind what those guys are doing or not doing. You should only care if you, Chr, gets hooked up. That should be your first priority. Dont get sidetracked. Besides if you think other dudes arent getting lucky, you may get influenced with some bad luck yourself. Stop thinking in those negative terms. I like NY action because everything’s in close and tight; girls everywhere. In Cali everything’s spread out so you have to get in your car and drive here and there. That’s cool too but, when I’m here, I like it here and when I’m there, I loved it there too. Different lifestyle, girls are really really into their hair and looks. It was a lot of fun, Cali was.
    And now that I’m here in NY, I make the most of it also. Get to know the layout, the chicks, the vibe. It’s a different pulse. Girls make a lot of eye contact which is exactly where I’m coming from. I’m not the “sarge” kinda guy. I like to stay in my comfort zone and check out a girls body language. If we vibe then it’s cool. If we don’t, it’s a rarity. Cuz I can get along with almost all kinds of girls. I’m easy.

    Reading body language is a must in my book because it allows me to screen everyone. It also makes life a heckuva lot easier in terms of whether she’s a go or no. NY girls are pretty easy going and carefree. Like I said, I can’t complain. Just kickin ass and taking names.

  242. “That’s why it’s pointless to engage with him and his twisted, miserable world view”.

    Mojo, since you were describing the purpose of art in one of your posts, why don’t you read this article and let me know what you think?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19202527

    I’m a frequent reader of Machiavelli who happened to come out of the Italian Renaissance. Machiavelli’s writings were definitely twisted for sure. Conflict is a catalyst for artistic achievement, and he himself also believed that conflict is needed to facilitate change and progress. A society living on easy street doesn’t bring about human progress. Seems like many Asian guys would rather stayed in their comfort zones instead of confronting their inner and outer demons. If anything, I believe Asians should even be on an aggressive front to get the things they have been yearning for in America. If you don’t think so, then I think Asians should just go back to their communities and not engage with the mainstream. Do you think Jewish Americans became this very successful minority group by playing nice? Do you think Bill Gates and Steve Jobs who look like nice guys, were actually nice guys, and that how their companies become the successes you see today? My views are not extremist.

  243. This stupid fuck doesn’t realise that some works, such as Machiavelli’s, are effectively mirrors because what the reader gets from the tract reflects who the reader is. People actually consistently pick and choose points and perspectives corresponding to their psychological makeup. Machiavelli wrote Il Principe in such a manner.

    Can you imagine what a stupid fuck you need to be in order to have a “holy text of personal win” but use it entirely for stupid meaningless shit and minor cons, like what Chr has been trying to do here?

    When Chr’s professor told him he didn’t have what it takes, he wasn’t referring to race like what that stupid fuck assumed. The professor was gently letting him know he didn’t have the mental acuity or critical pedigree for any studies in humanities.

    How could a subhuman creature like Chr comprehend the meaning of being human?

  244. One good thing I did notice about PUA is that they do go out and ‘Sarge’ which is cool for other pursuits like you mentioned and yeah, probably for most guys, they have to get up off their ass and approach girls in order to break the ice. My ‘body language’ technique is strictly for picking up women and nothing else. It’s practically Zenlike. PUA is a whole nother creature in that it embodies a plethora of related disciplines all meshed into one. It’s good for going out to make guy friends and sales and popularity endeavors. But me, I’m lazy. I don’t really appreciate the challenge of approaching a strange girl, spitting out game and hope something sticks. By the time I approach a female, I’m already 90% sure it’s in the bag.

  245. I don’t give any credit to what Asian Guru does. He’s had a lot more students not make it then ones who have. Just cause one made it out of 100 does not mean the system works. You’ve got more of a chance working on your looks, going to the gym, bathing, dressing better. (all these things you don’t need to pay a guy a lot of money to help you do) It takes dedication on your end. And I’m sorry to say, there’s no magic words or formula out there.

    I don’t like PUA gurus cause they lie about stuff in their marketing and are unscrupulous in that. For example, they tried to sell pheromones.

    To see if what they do works, how come these guru guys never come out showing pictures of who they are consistently dating for married to. Wouldn’t that be a marketing triumph, short pudgy Asian guy actually have a hot “white” girl in a relationship? You know why? Cause it never happened!

    And Raguel, I don’t really read what Chr says anymore. He’s the dumbest ass Asian guy I’ve ever encountered in any blogs. No point, and waste of energy.

  246. I don’t read the The Prince anymore. There are other works of Machiavelli that are more poignant and relevant to our current times.

  247. “You’ve got more of a chance working on your looks, going to the gym, bathing, dressing better. (all these things you don’t need to pay a guy a lot of money to help you do) It takes dedication on your end. And I’m sorry to say, there’s no magic words or formula out there”.

    You sound like an idiot. That is if you are generalizing these Asian guys who are PUAs. Many of these guys are well groomed, and some of them aren’t even as unattractive as I make them out to be. The problem I have with it is that PUA is unethical. Guys use these tactics forcibly on the girls they try to pick up, even when the girl says no, these guys would pound her until she gives in or get confrontational. That Asian dude who was trying to pickup a White chick downstairs of my office did just that. He used some lines, then cornered her with more lines when she was trying to fend him off. Since many Asian guys in NYC who are into PUA, I can make an assumption that women NOW will have their guard up much more when they encounter Asian men, because of the prevalence of Asian PUAs doing their thing in the public, similar to what Black guys have been doing, that is by cat calling girls who are walking by. The real irony of all this is that it is suppose to make Asian men more sexually attractive, but the whole process is a turnoff and lame.

  248. Pingback: Deflection Coaching: new entry in bigWOWO lexicon | bigWOWO

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