Elijah Muhammad
“The slavemaster is no longer hindering us, we’re hindering ourselves. The slavemaster has given you all he could give you. He gave you freedom. Now get something for yourself.”
In the last post, Neutral Observer called me to task for being against reparations for slavery. He makes many good points, and I’d like to clarify why I’m against reparations. It essentially boils down to two reasons–direct relationship and mentality.
The first reason is the the legal one–direct and provable relationship. There is no direct legal or financial relationship between black individuals today and the White slaveowners of the 1800s. With the Japanese Americans who were interned, there was a direct debt to be paid to those individuals whom the government sent to the camps. You didn’t get money just for being Japanese American, even though the crime affects ALL JAs today; you only got money if you were sent to the camps. There exists no such relationship between black people today and the slaveowners of yesterday. Barack Obama, for example, comes from an African father and White mother. As far as we know, there are no African American slaves in his ancestry. Would he be eligible? Would his children, whom he had with his wife Michelle, be eligible? Conversely, there are White people in this country who have black slave ancestors. They suffer from zero racism, and yet their ancestors were also cheated out of their fair share. Would they get reparations?
Neutral brings up the American Indians, but the example is different. In the case of the American Indians, it’s a government to government relationship, not a government to individual relationship–the U.S. is doing what it can to help nations from which it stole land and against which it committed genocide. If you live in an area that has lots of American Indian reservations like I do, you know that the tribes, or nations, as they really should be called, have limited autonomy that comes from almost being a different country. It’s still a very bad situation–water-rich Portland went to the Whites, while parched and dry areas of Pendleton went to the Indians–and so the government is trying to do what it can to right the terrible crimes it committed against these people.
Keep in mind that again, there’s a direct relationship here. You don’t get money from the U.S. just from having American Indian blood; your nation gets help because of crimes committed by the U.S. government against your nation.
The second reason I’m against reparations is related to the first, but it’s also related to the future: mentality. If someone commits a crime against you as an individual, fight for what’s yours. I’ll support you 100%. If someone commits a crime against your ancestors, fight for recognition–tell people how America enslaved its own people, how unscrupulous politicians and train owners killed Chinese men whom they recruited to work on the railroad. But if no one committed a crime directly against you as an individual person, no one owes you anything. They might owe your parents’ or grandparents’ estate, but the debt ends there. Don’t think that the world owes you anything. It doesn’t.
I hope this doesn’t sound callous. It’s one of these areas that we need to define along legal terms, and on the basis of logic and law, I can’t see how any third party could force a government to pay money based on what someone looks like. The Chinese were subjected to harsh laws against immigration and intermarriage that has created a perpetual foreigner mentality among both Asians and Whites in this country, but do I, as a Chinese American living in the U.S. during the 21st century, deserve financial compensation for these racist laws? I can’t see why or how I could claim this.
I quoted Elijah Muhammad above. Muhammad was, of course, Malcolm X’s teacher, and ironically enough, he was born the son of former slaves. I like the quote because it focuses on a positive mentality. He’s basically saying that you are born into freedom and that the rest is up to you. I think this is a more constructive attitude than believing that the world owes you. After all, on what basis, legal or moral, can you claim that you are entitled to something for a crime that you yourself did not endure? Living in the here and now, as Elijah Muhammed recommended, is a far more powerful strategy.
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Byron. I will say this only once. You are a total ignorant asshole. Fuck you and I’m through with your site.
Haha… only a matter of time. Neutral Observer is a fool, and what’s worse, he’s too stupid to know that he’s a fool.
Elvis has left the building.
Seriously, Neutral Observer, I’m not getting it. Why are you leaving? Why are you protesting? I think I made some really good points that are worth considering.
Since I’m fairly new to the site, I don’t understand the discord between NO and King and why I’m being viewed suspiciously for having agreed with King on a point?
Nevermind, maybe best to just let it be….
It’s because Neutral and I never agree on anything. lol But obviously, disagreement doesn’t necessitate disaffection, in the best of circumstances. The problem is that N.O. doesn’t really like opinions that disagree with his own. And if the opposing opinion is well reasoned, but on a topic which he considers to be untouchable, he will say things like:
“You are a total ignorant asshole. Fuck you.”
Mostly because he has nothing of actual substance to argue. This saves him from exposing his own poor thinking, lack of fact checking, and illogic.
But, if he’s true to his word I see it as a win/win.
There’s also a lack of understanding about “time decay.”
I think that we should have gotten individual reparations at emacipation, I think that would have gone a long way to preventing this permanant underclass situation we seem to be in. I think that AA’s still deserve to be compensated but I wouldn’t compensate us individually at this late point. It would be more of a group compensation like setting up harlem children’s zones in poor AA commmunities. As for your question about Chinese exclusion, I think that Chinese Americans who are descendents of those that faced that discrimination should be compensated in a group fashion.
I remember having a similar discussion with my parents before when I was young and full of self-righteous anger. They told me that they did not suffer hardships and racism just so I can carry the burden of anger and hate. Instead, I should honor their sacrifice by being a good man and creating a better future for the next generation. Words to live by.
Their struggles are their burden. Our responsibility is to remember and fight for recognition of their history. I would gladly fight the injustices they face today, but it would be disengenuous for me to claim that I share in the oppression of my ancestors and be party to what is owed to them.
King,
Haha. As you and I know from way back when on the 44s, people need to be able to disagree. I don’t think I know anyone who agrees on every single point. Religion and politics tend to be that way–people just see things differently on certain issues. Hopefully there’s enough commonality to balance out the disagreements.
Zoopath,
I agree with you. I’m cool with the government fixing things by improving communities to help people get a leg up. It’s only right. This could help fight racism and help to alleviate that terrible legacy.
As for descendants of Chinese exclusion–I don’t think there are many of them. Restricting Chinese female immigration reduced the number of Chinese-Chinese families, and restricting intermarriage prevented Chinese-Other families. So we basically run into a similar problem as with other forms of racism from long ago…
“Haha. As you and I know from way back when on the 44s, people need to be able to disagree.”
Exactly, B.
ZooPath, I like your solution a lot better, but the fact is that at the time of the emancipation, America was not ready fully admit or accept the freed slaves into the White social order. Of course, they also weren’t ready to admit the Chinese, or Native Americans either. Unfortunately, those who were wronged were simply not compensated when it would have done any good. It was another 100 years until civil rights for minorities became a big social issue among the majority culture. But now the social/psychological damage has been done. I wish that it weren’t the case, but it is. Handing out checks, at this late point would neither satisfy the offended, nor fix any of the deep rooted problems.
Besides, if you look back at every continent, every country, and people, war, oppression, enslavement, and even genocide have been more the rule than the exception. It’s terrible, it’s inexcusable, but it’s also pretty normative. It simply isn’t possible to fix all of these historic conflict with a check book. I mean, just imagine the lines of people who’ve been screwed by the U.S.A. (or any other powerful country) at some point… you simply can’t pay them ALL back, which probably means that you can’t pay any of them back.
The U.S. government is not out earning much of it’s own money. When you talk about reparations, what you’re talking about is taking tax money from everybody and paying it to specific group. It’s not White people’s money, at this point, it’s everybody’s money.
Okay, I wasn’t aware the disagreement had been going on for awhile between you two.
Zoopath makes a great point that the fall out from slavery was the creation of an underclass. People were emancipated but were segregated and denied equal access to the law, to opportunities, to education.
And yeah, creating government programs to help the community get ahead after years of neglect and second class status is a beginning. Just throwing money at people might only create greater problems. And yet at some point, personal responsibility has to take over; government and social welfare programs like Head Start can only do so much.
“Haha. As you and I know from way back when on the 44s, people need to be able to disagree.”
Sigh. I miss the Fighting44s. It was like one big happy family. Right, Jaehwan?
I suggest reading this, it is the best take I have read.
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/04/henry-louis-gates-gives-me-a-quitclaim-deed-to-hold-onto-the-fruits-of-my-slaveowning-and-slave-trading-ancestors-crimes.html
Thanks, Frank.
I don’t disagree with much of what this guy says, but he didn’t answer the major significant question: who do we owe, and who gets reparations? If it’s just saying that we need to eliminate racism, I can buy into that. But who do we owe? Anyone who looks black? My well-to-do educated neighbor who immigrated from Nigeria a few years back?
It sounds like he feels that we have a debt to erase racism because of slavery. I would say that if he’s simply saying we need to eradicate racism that comes from slavery, then the word “debt” isn’t relevant. If we’re eradicating racism rather than handing people checks, atonement might be a better word because we’re fixing a social ill, not paying people back. In the case of the Japanese American reparations, we were repaying people–although just a fraction of what these people lost–for their lost time, the fire sales which they had to go through to liquidate their property, and their unlawful incarceration. That was a debt.
African American “reparations” would be less of a debt and more of an effort to equalize society. I think we need to put things into perspective. As Dinesh D’Souza said (and I know he won’t be popular on this board), America was not the first country to support slavery, but it was the first country to end it. My Nigerian neighbor immigrated because the financial opportunities were better than back home. That has to say something about race, social mobility, and the complexity of reparations.
@King: I agree that it’s everybody’s tax money that would be going to compensate African Americans but the I’ve just kinda given up on the whole wasting money thing. The money’s going to be pissed away no matter which party is in power. It’s only a matter of what it’s pissed away on. I’m at the point where if the money has to be spent/wasted I’d rather spend it on helping our fellow citizens improve their lives than on blowing up brown people and then trying to build up their country that we just blew up. I find that to be a baffling exercise. If we have money for that kinda shenanigans then we have money to try to compensate the descendents of the people who got shat on to build this country.
@jae: My proposal of group reparations wouldn’t really matter to your Nigerian neighbor because he’s not a poor, inner city (or backwoods of mississippi) youth.
Well, I agree with you on your points, but the problem is that unearned money often does more harm than good. And that’s true whether you’re a banker’s spoiled son, or a ghetto lotto winner. Wealth is much more of a mindset than it is the simple accumulation of cash—it’s more a set of habits and attitudes. People have to be ready to receive money in order for it to do any good.
I had a friend who’s passed away now. But when he was alive, he won a 30,000 dollar lottery payout. My friend worked in a convenience store – he never went to college or learned a trade. What do you think happened? Within two years, he was asking me to borrow $20.00. I was so shocked that I asked him, “Where’s all of your lottery money?” He looked around his apartment, there was a new stereo and TV but nothing else had changed. Finally he said, “I honestly don’t know where the money went, it’s like it all disappeared.” He died just as poor as he ever was throughout his life.
The money wouldn’t fix anything. For most people, it would pass right through their hands into the hands of a retailer.
King, I agree with you that it’s a mindset. I look at people’s finances all the time, and I’ve seen people inherit large chunks of money only to lose it all a few years down the road. If you don’t have that proper mindset to keep money, more money won’t help.
Just thinking off the cuff…would there be any value in teaching financial management to people who live in poorer communities? It’s hard to practice managing money when you don’t have it to begin with, but maybe people could make some inroads to help other people work better with money.
I’d say there would be, IF you took a relatively small group who were really willing to learn, and let the rest of the community see how this group begins to prosper and thrive. Only then would other people begin to think… Hey, maybe it’s worth a try!
I think nothing could be better. We had a retirement expert come in once to our martial arts class in Oakland and the first thing he said was, “Even if there is social security in the future, plan on not getting any. Now we can talk about 401Ks.” The notion that they’re owed anything should probably be cast aside right away. That’s the first step toward financial management, because if you cling to the entitlement that might never come you get stuck there pretty easily.
If reparations for slavery were ever introduced, you can be sure that White America would throw the Mother-of-all-Hissy Fits, as a result.
That alone would be worth the price of admissions, so to speak.
The vast majority of (White) Americans are hostile to reparations.
But let’s get something straight.
Despite their protestations otherwise, this opposition has nothing to do with the feasibility, logistics, nor of course the morality of reparations.
Reparations are a reminder of the exploitative nature of the American Way of Life(tm) in general–past and present.
And paying reparations for the peculiar institution of US chattel slavery may open up a political pandora’s box that many people would rather suppress about American exploitation TODAY both in the USA and around the world.
Black Unemployment in the U.S.: So Bad the UN is Investigating
http://www.racismreview.com/blog/2010/04/28/black-unemployment-in-the-u-s-so-bad-the-un-is-investigating/
Close to Slavery: Guestworker Programs in the United States
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/publications/close-to-slavery-guestworker-programs-in-the-united-states
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization to Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions
http://www.democracynow.org/2004/11/9/confessions_of_an_economic_hit_man
That might be your interpretation of reaction to reparations, but lots of (white) people think it’s a bad idea for the same reasons as the (non-white) people above. It’s not always about guilt. The ones who feel guilt are in favor of it.
I’d also like the UN to launch an investigation as to why women outnumber men 3:2 in college and why their employment is consistently higher than men in most of Europe and America (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_une_gen_rat-labor-unemployment-gender-ratio).
Confessions was palatable if equate capitalism with risk-averse third-world governments taking massive loans. Of course you become someone’s b*tch when you borrow 20 billion dollars from a huge bank, that’s when you start figuring out your economy to raise the cash. The World Bank would PREFER to have its 20 billion back rather than taking a huge worthless stake in your crummy economy, but since this or that regime can’t raise a decent economy the World Bank has to take something.
“That might be your interpretation of reaction to reparations, but lots of (white) people think it’s a bad idea for the same reasons as the (non-white) people above. It’s not always about guilt. The ones who feel guilt are in favor of it.”
I never said it was about guilt. Usually, one needs a conscience to feel guilt, and that quality is sadly lacking among Americans–particularly White America.
It is about *self-interest* for Whites (and non-Whites) who benefit from or alibi for the American system and way of life.
Beyond the historical issue of slavery, the reparations movement implicitly brings up larger political issues that many Americans do not want to admit: that America and its precious way of life are fundamentally based upon White racist supremacy and economic exploitation. Past, present, and no doubt future.
That is one underlying and unspoken reason for opposition to reparations–beyond legitimate concerns about their logistical feasibility.
Regarding _Confessions of an Economic Hitman_, those loans that the World Bank so generously gives out to the Third World come with many strings attached–like imposing economic austerity measures (i.e. cutting social spending) and opening up the economy to America’s rapacious corporations.
Indeed, like the IMF, the World Bank is not some impartial “international” organization, but largely a proxy used by America to impose what is called the Washington Consensus on other countries.
The Washington Consensus is an economic development model that benefits not the population of a given developing nation but that of America and its predatory brand of capitalism.
Indeed, as John Perkins stated, the American Empire routinely attempts to coerce, threaten, and even “regime change” governments of developing nations and force them to adopt this Washington Consensus.
Perkins should know what he is talking about.
He was *personally involved* in imposing these American dictates on nations around the world.
Self-Described Economic Hit Man John Perkins: “We Have Created the World’s First Truly Global Empire”
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/2/15/self_described_economic_hit_man_john
What are you expecting? Third-world (even second or first-world) democracies run themselves into debt through big-spending programs that people vote for. The country’s money runs dry, they go to World Bank or IMF, who then say “Okay, we’ll give you a loan if you lower your risk.” High-spending regimes are high-risk, so… duh. I dunno what else to say.
Here’s a great example for you. Greece has incredibly high debt right now, and they’re asking for a bailout from the IMF. The bailout will undoubtedly come with demands to cut social programs. These social programs are extremely popular in Greece and nobody wants them cut, so there’s been mass strikes all over the country. If the country accepts the terms and cuts programs, social spending ends. If the government defaults on its loans, social spending ends by definition. So, do you blame the IMF for offering the loan with terms? Or do you blame Greece and its third-rate accountants that spent them into the ground and gave them no option but to take out a loan?
i’m not going to go off on a tangent about IMF loans, etc….
but again, something needs to be addressed here. And yes, a good number of white Americans are going to stick to the old, “oh, another hand out for black people”. I go back to the difficulty in implementing this based on what form does reparations take, how do we do it without completely shattering the fragile peace as is?
It’s complicated because some things are not so clear cut. Of course, you’ll always get scammers who will try to cash in when they themselves have no links to slavery. But it’s the intangible things that are hard to put a monetary value on to compensate someone. Like someone wrongfully imprisoned for a crime that he did not do—-how do you measure the impact? What monetary value do you place on a life unfulfilled? At least with the Japanese, actual farm land was taken. With Native Americans, legal treaties were broken and land taken.
So how does one evaluate compensation for someone having been enslaved? Do you go after the slave owner’s family wealth? Do you go after the existing businesses or corporations that benefitted from slavery? Assuming they still exist?
And just throwing money at someone—is that a real solution to someone who might not have the education and understanding what to do with the a large sum of money? At some point personal responsibility for one’s life has to come into play. You give an alcoholic, unhealthy Native American barley subsisting on Pine Ridge Reservation a pile of cash and walk away—-are you really doing him any good at that point?
Interesting post by Brooks in the NY Times:
“The Limits of Policy”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/opinion/04brooks.html?ref=opinion
“It is very hard for policy makers to use money to directly alter these viewpoints. In her book, “What Money Can’t Buy,” Susan E. Mayer of the University of Chicago calculated what would happen if you could double the income of the poorest Americans. The results would be disappointingly small. Doubling parental income would barely reduce dropout rates of the children. It would have a small effect on reducing teen pregnancy. It would barely improve child outcomes overall.
….Therefore, the first rule of policy-making should be, don’t promulgate a policy that will destroy social bonds. If you take tribes of people, exile them from their homelands and ship them to strange, arid lands, you’re going to produce bad outcomes for generations. Second, try to establish basic security. If the government can establish a basic level of economic and physical security, people may create a culture of achievement — if you’re lucky. Third, try to use policy to strengthen relationships. The best policies, like good preschool and military service, fortify emotional bonds.”
This kind of what I was thinking but didn’t fully express, in terms of personal responsibility and just throwing cash at someone whose life is a mess to begin with. There has to be some mechanism in place for the person to wisely use the compensation, if it were to take place.
Great find. I probably have more to say about that, but I’m getting overrun by blog ideas and lit ideas…
Nice article find Mojo…. except for this part:
\Asian-Americans have a life expectancy of 87 years compared with 79 years for whites and 73 years for African-Americans.\
It’s clear that Asian-Americans are stealing years of life expectancy from African-Americans!! I think it would be more fair, if Asian-Americans agreed to die at 82 years and paid 3 to 4 years to African-Americans in reparations. (to quote an absent fool)
I’ll glady donate several lousy years of my childhood!
Can I pay someone money to pay my reparation-years? I remember something similar in that Harvard Ethics class but don’t remember the answer/resolution.
What are you expecting? Third-world (even second or first-world) democracies run themselves into debt through big-spending programs that people vote for. The country’s money runs dry, they go to World Bank or IMF, who then say “Okay, we’ll give you a loan if you lower your risk.” High-spending regimes are high-risk, so… duh. I dunno what else to say.
You are predictably avoiding the points made by John Perkins.
America has threatened, strong-armed, and even staged coups against Third World governments in order to shove the Washington Consenus economic model down their throats–and ultimately open up those countries for America’s looting, sorry, “free market reforms.”
And the “World” Bank and IMF are not independent institutions, they are used as tools by America to inflict these policies on the world–including its predatory lending policies that you defend.
Blaming these countries for “big spending” is a pathetic American tactic to divert attention from the crimes that the USA is guilty of–like Bernie Madoff, Enron, or Goldman Sachs blaming the people they ripped off.
Again, Perkins was directly and personally involved in these activities as an American Economic Hitman, as a US government agent and later as a corporate consultant.
Here’s more on the history of the American Empire’s limitless crimes.
US Exploitation Of The World
http://www.swans.com/library/art14/cmarow112.html
http://killinghope.org/
I don’t disagree with your views of America as predatory, but it’s only predatory when the nations it preys upon consent to its conditions. Wa-benzi take loans from banks and go hog-wild spending it on their palaces and sedans while keeping reckless policies in place. Why do you go back in time and blame a bank for offering the loan in the first place? Nobody forced the wa-benzi to take the loan. They did it to enrich themselves. Why they’re even in power is a better question.
But America’s not always successful. It (and its clique the UN) couldn’t reinstate the hard-left Zelaya in Honduras after his own country kicked him out for repeatedly breaking the law, to be replaced by a right-winger. Regardless of what was correct, you’d agree the UN and America had no say in the matter, yes?
Wow. I was looking for something else and came across this site. First let me say this to the publisher of this blog, article or information you intended on sharing with cyberspace. Ignorance, is a state of mind. Although I respect your opinion, you must do more research on the subjects you speak upon. Secondly, maybe the “world” doesn’t owe anything to us, but the “U.S.” does owe many people from all ethinic backgrounds and yes including whites. Let me just start with African Americans or must I just say simply, Black people for discussion since you have Elijah Muhammads picture up so vividly. Had you done your history research correctly then you would realize that the “New World” as we know it was built on the backs of slaves “black” slaves at that. Black people were promised 40 acres and a mule during the end of slavery to help them begin festing in their own crops and land. It was more of a “hand out” due to all the brutality that went on during this time. So, there is a financial tie you see. Oh by the way..this still wasn’t recieved. Those that were fortunate to recieve the 40 acres and a mule were forced to give it back to the government as well. And please..don’t use OBAMA as an example of slavery heritage in this country. He may not have any black ancestory in this country, but the cruel history of slavery has affected him in more ways than you know. Did you not watch the election and see how racist our country still is over minorities? Obama was the only presential candidate in THE HISTORY of the U.S. who needed secret service BEFORE he became preseident due to all the racial and dealth threats he recieved. Actually, if you did your research on our current president you will find he does have African descent. The same AFRICAN descent where our country went and kidnapped slaves. And may I ask..where do you think most slaves came from again? Yes, we do live more in a free atmospheric country now so we may find other blacks here that do not have african slavery descent. But seriously, most of the blacks you see today are indeed offspring of black slaves with ancestory of Anglo, French, even Native American. And why do you think that is? I can’t say the same for Asian Americans in our country today. I’m sure there’s some mixes going on, but not on this level. Also, Unlike ALL African Americans, Asian Americans were fortunate enough to have the luxury of keeping their heritage through their ancestors while Blacks have no idea of what heritage they came from or their native tongue. So you see, some things you can’t put a price on. Now..let’s take it to a political level that effects all of us shall we? Politics? Whether you are black, white, Latino, Asian, Hungarian, whatever..as long as you live in this country you will continue to pay TAXES on things we don’t even have a say so in. For instance, were you aware that more white people are on welfare than blacks? Probably not. This is not because statically, whites are poorer than blacks. This is simply because there are more white people than any other race in this country so naturally they would have higher rate of welfare recipients. We pay for those taxes and we don’t see any of that back! What about the housing industry? Should we pay for all the foreclosed homes in the country through taxes? I understand we are all in this together because like yourself, I chose to live here, but still. What about those nice little tax refunds you may benefit from once a year? Hmph..mighty funny how “Uncle Sam” owed that to you isn’t it? Here’s a suggestion. Since you and whoever else feels the “world” doesn’t owe you anything..you can simply give me all your tax returns every year and I will gladly take them with a smile on my face followed by “You’ve got to be the most idiodic person I know” statement because trust me. While you’re over here talking about the world doesn’t owe you anything, that’s exactly what our goverment wants you to think. Good luck with your movement and thanks for the Brain stimulation. We all need a good laugh every now and then.
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