I remember working my first retail job in New York. I was working selling computers for a crappy, fly-by-night storefront, and it was my first time working in a truly multiethnic environment. We were talking about college, and one of my black male coworkers remarked about my alma mater: “They gave you a degree? Man, they must be giving out degrees to just about everyone these days!” Everyone burst out in laughter.
I was shocked. I didn’t know what to say. I was out of words before the war of words even began.
One of my black female coworkers quickly shot in, “Well, Jamie [I think that was his name], they didn’t give one to you!” Everyone laughed again. Once everyone dispersed, my female coworker said, “Byron, you gotta defend yourself. Put him in his place!”
Coming from a monoethnic background (haha…white), I later learned that many African Americans play a game when growing up called “Playing the Dozens.” In the game, people throw playful insults back and forth in front of a public audience. It helps develop wit, quickness, and confidence. It explained a bit about how easily Jamie owned me, and how easily my female coworker shot him down.
Just last week, King mentioned another game that some in the African American community play. It’s called “Working on Your Mack.” In this game, boys and girls playfully exchange flirts and rejections. I’ll reference King’s words:
In my neighborhood (African Ameican) growing up, there was an old tradition of “workin’ on your mack” which was kind of a game. Every guy tried out all the most ridiculous lines on the girls—it didn’t matter if you liked them or not. The guys threw out the macks, the girls always shot them down, and it was kind of a joke that everyone enjoyed. Guys thinking of creative and clever ways to mack up the girls, and girls thinking of even more clever ways to turn down the guys. But since it was a game nobody took the put-downs personally. You were going to get a “no” either way and this annulled any pressure . Every now and then, a guy came up with something so creative, so smooth, so dap, that everybody had to give him props. But success was rare and hard to come by.
But by time we were in our mid- teens, we had been soundly rejected so many times and so badly, that we really were all quite immune to it. If a girl said “no”, it was “no,” but we didn’t really sweat it, because it was just like in our little game, you try again with something better later. Also, the girls all got used to guys asking them out and throwing pure BS at them. In the end, the boys turned out bolder, and more confident, and the girls ended up wiserm confident, and knew how to deal with male BSers.
I think games like this are great. As King later mentioned in the thread, games teach us a lot that we need in life. In this case, “playing the dozens” and “working on your mack” both achieve the same goal–they teach confidence, quickness on one’s feet, and fast creativity. Jamie owned me because he was faster than me, and my female coworker owned him because she was faster than him. We have all this talk in the AA blogosphere about PUA, canned lines, negging, AMOGing, and all these other dirty tricks. This kind of negative thinking appeals to some Asian men because our culture doesn’t have the games in adolescence that build personal speed and display personality. How great it would be if we could somehow change our culture to incorporate similar games in order to help our young men and women today? These games wouldn’t just help Asian men either. They could help Asian women develop similar speed and performance ability to stand up for themselves as well.
What do you all think?
(I actually had a lot more to say about this. I was going to talk about stereotypical sales styles and flirting styles among Asian American men, etc., but I’ll just open the floor for more enlightened contributors.)
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i agree, but i think it’s like this in a lot of social circles. You crack jokes and nobody’s supposed to take teasing seriously
asianguy, it’s not the same. when i started really hanging out with/going to school/working with people who weren’t black, i had to hold back my tongue at times because i had to realize that not everyone understands this verbal “sparring” black people sometimes do.
i always say black folk can talk some isht – and i mean that in the best of ways of course. i mean, who could rap like muhammed ali? face it, black folk have the gift of gab. can be the best trash talkers ever and the best at banter and be smooth as all get out.
we have many talents but we are particularly good at oral expression – yes, it’s stereotypical but that’s my story and i’m sticking to it.
I think so too. I got waxed by Jamie. That’s what I’m saying about including some of your culture in mine. There’d be a lot of benefit there.
Of course it goes the other way too–maybe Asian Americans can share positive parts of our culture. Not all of us have these positive parts, but there are enough of us who do.
i think this verbal sparring that black people do can often get us into trouble if we’re not cognizant of things. i think it can sometimes make nonblack people think we are confrontational and outspoken. there are definitely cultural differences in communicating between people. at some of my earlier jobs, white people i worked with thought i was confrontational – i am small, soft-spoken – but because i expressed whatever i thought, i was sometimes labeled a certain way. i’ve not encountered this problem recently, but it can present challenges – esp. if you’re a black female. we’re thought of as bitches, but, interestingly enough, capable.
so, what are positive parts you think asian americans might share with black folk?
Which is why if Asians took this up, it should be done in a way that fits within Asian culture. It’s not about Asians copying Black culture, it’s simply about Asians reacting to things they learn from other cultures, and adapting them to fit their own.
Everybody has to deal with the same broader issues, like learning to establish a level of comfort and confidence with the opposite sex. If you see something that works in another culture, it should get you thinking, “How could that fit into my culture?” That goes for anybody in any culture. Who knows, the Asian version of these games might become even more effective than the Black versions. Then it will be our turn to observe and adapt. We all need to learn from each other.
i don’t think asian men necessarily need to do this. that talk black men lay on black women is sometimes annoying. asian men just need to be themselves and just approach – simple as that. stop being so self-conscious and insecure, especially if you’re good-looking.
sometimes i see asian guys looking at me acting like they are interested but they don’t approach. there’s this guy who is so nice-looking and sorta follows me when i’m around, but that’s all he does. it’s weird and sad all at once.
it’s like, man, go for the kill why don’t ya?
It’s not about the talk, merry, it’s about the experience. Naturally, I don’t mack like I did when I was 14 years old, but it was a beginning when I was beginning to learn about approaching women. The complaint around the Asian blogosphere has been that in many Asian cultural groups, young men are not taught early on to approach women (or sometimes not taught at all). Obviously, this doesn’t apply to every Asian guy, but it does apply to enough.
Up to now, one of the largest organized responses to this phenomenon has been the adoption of the PUA tactics of the “Seduction Community” much later on in life. Tactics and philosophies range from Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) as championed by Ross Jeffries, to the techniques outlined in the book, “The Game” by Neil Strauss. It delves into theories of predictable evolution-driven female behavior such as “Replication Preference” and Alpha-male designations.
In short, the most favored alternative gets a LOT more complicated than simply trading a few lines between boys and girls during adolescence—the basic idea of which is just to get the two sexes comfortable with each other, and building a bit of confidence before the heavy years of dating and mating begin in earnest.
Great points, King and merry!
Merry, you’re right about how verbal sparring among black people can seem confrontational to nonblacks. That was actually my first response to Jamie. I thought to myself, “Why is this guy insulting me?”
I don’t know what positive parts of our culture we would share, but if non-Asians were interested in something that Asians do, we could share whatever that is. As King says, we could all learn from each other. In this case of speaking, I think we Asians are oftentimes too meek, and playing the dozens or working on our mack could build up a certain level of fluency that could make us stronger.
The question, of course, is how we would integrate this. I couldn’t imagine old Asian uncles and aunties watching while the nephews and nieces worked on their mack. But I guess anything is possible if we integrate it correctly.
I think we could probably try this on a local level if we somehow created intercultural bonds, or maybe partnerships between organizations. There could be a lot of potential for sharing here.
“I don’t know what positive parts of our culture we would share”
I find that the AA culture is much admired among many other cultures, ESPECIALLY for your amazing level of discipline applied to academic and life goals. This alone is worth imitating, but is only one of many traits admired by those outside of the Asian cultures.
re: Working on your mack.
Ha. You are being too modest, Jaehwan. Readers here may not realize it, but you were Mr. Mack Daddy in your youth. Your dating escapades alone are legendary and rival that of any PUA.
AHA!!!! The truth finally comes out!! It’s good thing we have Larry around to keep you honest!!!
king – “I find that the AA culture is much admired among many other cultures, ESPECIALLY for your amazing level of discipline applied to academic and life goals. This alone is worth imitating, but is only one of many traits admired by those outside of the Asian cultures.”
i knew somebody would mention asian academic achievement, etc. but the reality is that if black people knew who they were, understood who they were, they wouldn’t need to look to anybody else for inspiration, particularly in the area of academics – we’ve done so much.
peace out…
merry, try not to look at it that way. There is no mandate for strict bootstrap inspiration, FUBU.
It’s about finding inspiration from each other. Nobody is saying that Black people are genetically gregarious. Nobody is saying that Asian people are genetically studious. Yet, the mold of culture shapes us all. Usually, we end up focusing on certain things (from within our culture) and neglecting other things—it’s always a tradeoff. All I’m saying is that we may find examples of other cultures doing a certain something that we can adapt to our own. Whether it’s socializing or studying, when we look outside of our own cultures, we may find new answers visible from a new perspective. ALL cultures have their strengths and weaknesses. It simply makes sense to study and learn from each other’s strengths.
Haha! Larry, my dating life evidently wasn’t interesting enough for someone to make my escapades into a movie! Hmm was that because of lack of interest or was that to protect my rep?
King,
I think that would be a great piece of knowledge to share. I really do think that there’s a cultural component to average Asian achievement in school. Sometimes that culture overreaches and damages, but there probably are still lessons that we’ve learned over the years.
Merry,
I agree with King–the questions and responses aren’t implying anything less of anyone; it’s just a question of whether we can share. One of the reasons I was hesitant to answer your first question about what we could share was that I didn’t want to be presumptuous over what anyone would want from us.
Look at the case that you already mentioned–shy Asian men. I don’t think ALL Asian men are shy, and yes, the non-shy ones (and honest ones–let’s not PUA everything) could show other Asian men to do what they do. But if there’s already a culture which has developed a skill as a widespread cultural–not individual–strength, why shouldn’t other cultures learn from it?
Just found this link at feministcritics.org. It’s a flirting guide put together by an antrhopologist. The guide apparently precedes the online explosion of the PUA scene. Or at the very least, it must have paralled it:
http://www.sirc.org/publik/flirt.html
It’s pretty no-frills (a plus). Probably less offending in language than other sources.
Enjoy.