Seventh Olympic Medal
Congratulations, Apolo Anton Ohno. With his bronze medal in the 1000 m short track, Apolo Ohno surpassed Bonnie Blair to become the most decorated U.S. Winter Olympian in history with a total of seven medals. He has two more events to go, two more opportunities to further increase his medal count.
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But here is an...
I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
Okay, so the following story I am about to share can actually be applied and relate to multiple threads that have recently been posted. Sharing it here is as good as any number of threads. I will share the story and will attempt to tie it into the most recent discussions about “racial” dating and Asian heros/celebrities, media representation, and marrying for money and status.
So I went on a date recently with a Chinese Asian American. She’s a medical student who is about to graduate and make oodles of money according to her. Cutting to the chase, we had a very lengthy discussion after dinner over some drinks about why she doesn’t date Asian American men when I asked her what type of men she normally dates. But before I divulge the mentally deranged conversation, let me share a quick note that will give you insight to her points of view about her interracial dating preferences later. On the way to the bar, as we were approaching a bar, I asked if this place would be a good place to drop in. It’s just a normal regular semi-sports bar more or less that was less rowdy than your average bar especially on a Thursday night. She gave me a very condescending disapproving look and underneath her breath said that the place was low class. So we ended up at some snooty bar instead.
So, you are wondering at this point why she would be on a date with an Asian American man and then turn around and talk about why she doesn’t date Asian American men. Well the reason lies in her dating preference. As she puts it, she only dates “ethnically ambiguous men”. And by virtues of my looks alone, I fall under that category. In order words I passed enough for white and thus somehow gained her trust. She was an extremely smart, witty, extroverted, and articulate individual though a bit shallow, self absorbed, and affected. She was very self assured, elaborate, and eloquent in intellectualizing why she absolutely doesn’t date Asian men and instead mostly dated “ethnically ambiguous” men as she puts it. And at the end of it all after getting past the words and intellectualization…her reasons were pretty fucked up. When she was justifying her “ambiguous” points, she was stereotyping every single Chinese American man, every single Asian American man, even the whole damn race itself! She talked about how she considers herself a generational Chinese American who can assimilate seamlessly into white mainstream yet speak perfect Chinese which to her is some sort of justification for not dating Asian American men who she believes live a diluted version of Asian American…whatever that means.
She nicely made an analogy of her life to a mathematical curve that starts out at the bottom and suddenly shoots up dramatically before reaching the apex and leveling out again at that highest point. She talked about how she needs someone who has struggled in the economic sense in their life in the past and have worked hard to get to where they are currently, and where they are currently should be at least as high as the same very high inflection point on the graph she is at. Because only such a person will understand her own life’s journey and struggles. What that has to do with not dating Asian American men is beyond me though she made the sweeping retarded generalization that Asian American men don’t understand struggle and their own culture, blah, blah, blah. The funny part is she was born in the US and had lived in the suburbs all her life growing up. Her parent might have struggled earlier on but she had never struggled. My parents are refugees and I was a refugee. I’ve struggled more in one year of life than she has ever struggled in an entire lifetime. You get a real sense of elitism and classism when listening to her pontificate. It was a real privilege for me to hear her privileged dumbass talk so I continued to let her talk.
She mentioned her guy roommate who was a Chinese American during dinner, and she kept mentioning how short he was in a very negative connotation. Then later at the bar, it turns out that her guy roommate epitomizes everything she hates about Asian American men. She said that her roommate was very privileged and was all about Asian American activism. She said that he goes after only highly privileged/affluent Chinese American women. At this point she said something very paradoxical. She said that these women he goes after only date white men. Basically, she said that’s her reason for hating Asian American men because they are like her roommate and somehow that makes sense for her to not date Asian American men.
Then she mentions how she explained all of this to her white female roommate and how her white roommate completely understood her explanations. What a laugh…of course her white female roommate would completely understand because she has no other perspective, no other reference point. How can her white female roommate ever feel racism the same way on an internal, visceral level as a minority, as an Asian American much less understand the nuances of internalized racism and the Asian interracial dating/marriage disparity.
My summation of the whole conversation was that she looks toward the white elitist class/culture and faux liberal diversity to validate her assimilated existence, status in life, and to support some false egalitarian vision of Asian America that apparently doesn’t include Asian American men. Throughout the night I wanted to bang my head against a wall and then punch her in the face just once, but then that would have been very unbecoming of my ethnically ambiguous self.
She also mentioned some sort of volunteer after school mentoring program she started in Chinatown to help young Asian American girls in the community who come from difficult and impoverished backgrounds. It scares me what type of rhetoric and ideas she is imparting on these little girls. – Probably something along the lines of ‘to succeed, grow up, clean up, assimilate, make lots of money, and marry a white man’. – Fucking scary.
So here are my questions and comments –
Has anyone ever had a heart wrenching worse date experience?
Is this type of mentality normal and common?
With all the support and adoration for Apollo Ono and other mixed race celebrities, I wonder how much of it is tainted by the diseased mentality I have described above.
Human development is fucking complex and no more so than in minority communities.
Can anyone eloquently explain the intersection of culture, race, class, and social economic mobility?
Does this sound more like a rant than anything else.
Any further thoughts, add-ons, comments?
That pretty much sums up almost all of my experience with Asian American women. When you said this quote “…for not dating Asian American men who she believes live a diluted version of Asian American…whatever that means,” I raised an eyebrow.
It means, very simply, that they dislike the fact that they retain a fragment of being Asian whereas she wishes to delete it.
The other point, which seems to agree with your experience, is that Asian American women who participate in “activism” are entirely self serving. As long as they benefit, even if it hurts Asian American men, they’re all for it. If Asian American men are the sole benefactor, they either seek to remove it or complain about it.
I’ll give you several examples. DON’T take my word for it; I urge you to investigate it for yourself.
To name a few, Asian American women produced or were heavily involved in the following:
Red Doors
China Dolls
Asiance Magazine
Broken Trail
Every single production portrayed Asian women as the victims, Asian men as evil individuals or fulfilled countless stereotypes, or white men as saviors.
Look, I’m sick of repeating myself. The solution is very simple. The reason why Asian American women have a snooty and general shitty attitude is because they have the social leverage to be. Asian American men trying to increase their sexual attractiveness is a direct challenge to that because it decreases their amount of social power over you. Therefore, if they have nothing to gain and only stand to lose, their reaction to it can ONLY be negative.
This is exactly why I believe the solution to solving the dating disparity is for Asian men to date out.
First, it attacks the social reputation that white men have thrust onto Asian men while Asian women dating white men is a DIRECT reinforcement. This is also why it’s impossible for Asian women who date white men to say they support Asian men. Sorry, ain’t happening.
Second, white women have a reputation to be far less tolerant of sexism. When Asian women see Asian men with white women, it confronts the “Asian male sexist” stereotype.
Lastly, when Asian women see more Asian men with white women, their natural defensive nature will kick in and they’ll see it as an attack on their personal turf (which happens with all genders) and they will seek to protect it. I’m not sure where Minority Militant mentioned it but he said something to the effect that when non-Asian women see portrayals of themselves with Asian men, it spikes their interest and makes Asian men more attractive. My answer to that is: “Duh. Please tell me you didn’t just figure that out.” My own past dating experiences in high school and college proved that statement. Even today, I still see it.
Just last month, I was flirting with a woman at the office and she just bluntly said “Roooooooooob, are you flirting with me?” “Maybe. Are you offended and going to report me to HR?” She smiled and said “Noooooo, it just felt weird. Sorry, not weird but…..different.” “How so?” “Nothing, I’ve just never been hit on by an Asian guy before. It felt great!”
At lunch, her friend told her that she was attracted to Asian guys before but they only “seemed to be interested in Asian women.” So, she never tried to take it any further than friendship. She even tried to set up an Asian guy she liked with another Asian woman. Now, not surprisingly, hearing about me gave her more incentive to revisit Asian guys.
In short, to stop the Asian American dating disparity, Asian men must date outside their race. Byron, I’ve actually sent you research before regarding those 3 above points. No one believed me when I mentioned that the primary enforcers of Asian male stereotypes were actually Asian women, not white men.
It strikes me that Asian American men generally have very little understanding about society. Things like “reputation cost” never seem to factor into the big picture way of thinking.
PS: Don’t even come at with me with the response that signifies that I am the one who has a warped social outlook. I see the real reason why Asian American men never get promoted in my firm, and in other companies, and it has little to do with the glass ceiling. It’s 99% their own fault. Completely socially obtuse and small picture mentality.
I love it when Asian people say: Oh, who cares if people think that Asian American men are losers! You know the truth and that’s all that matters.
Yes. Kinda like how we all knew the Japanese Americans were loyal but were thrown into internment camps based on the rest of America’s perception of them.
MT, that is without a doubt the absolute weirdest explanation of a dating preference that I have ever heard, bar none.
“Ethnically ambiguous men?” Wow… is that even a real category? I can only ask, what do you think drove her to this state of absolute insanity? Did she look like she actually believed what she was saying?
I’m assuming that she meant anglo/asian hapas, by ambiguous… not Tiger Woods?
Like I’ve said before, I agree with urban in a general sense. His theory, like most theories, can be helpful in explaining phenomenon, whether because it is correct, incorrect, or simply used as a starting point. I will add that I don’t think what he describes occurs consciously for the most part, but the same results can certainly be achieved unconsciously.
And while I also agree that, in a general sense, it would benefit Asian American men as a whole to date interracially more, I would like to know if urban thinks Asian American men do not date interracially currently, or at least not as much as “we should,” because we don’t want to or because forces are preventing us from doing so? From my experience, Asian American men would love to date interracially but simply have difficulty in finding women who are willing to give them a chance. As a result, they focus more on Asian American women because they believe they have at least a better chance with them than with women from other races, which I think is statistically true.
Normally, I don’t respond to comments, however a buddy of mine pointed me to this page in regards to the comments made forthwith. While I whole heartedly agree that MT’s Date, the American-Asian Woman, has a completely skewed and irrational dating strategy for social ladder escalation while maintaining ridiculous standards she holds American-Asian Men to. While, she is completely entitled to possess and act upon an irrational standard, why would you want to further continue to date a woman like this regardless of her ethnic background(s).
After returning from a date a couple hours ago with an American-Asian Woman that is both in touch with her Asian side (speaks fluently) and speaks perfect English and is assimilated, I find this benign dating cancer American-Asian Men believe American-Asian women have against us petty and an unfounded claim based upon a sample that does not represent the entire population accurately.
I understand the rationale behind dating “out” for American-Asian Men as a dating strategy that would help combat the somewhat racism dating preferences of American-Asian Women, however I do not believe this to be effective. Do you really need to date in a certain way to say, “hey take that American-Asian Women, I can get white and brown vagina!” Is this really going to persuade them to all of a sudden change their years of mainstream media brainwashing and jump on our yellow cocks? No. Who gives a flying rats ass what any woman (American-Asian or otherwise) wants to date? If she doesn’t want to date you for stupid racist reasons, let her dwell in her ignorance and stupidity. It’s not our job as American-Asian Men to change people’s minds. Just be the best you can be. Date who you want! Why make it an anti-racist agenda? Theres plenty of white girls, latinas, black girls, etc. that want men regardless of their ethnic background because they are attractive to them on a less than superficial level. American-Asian Men just need to step their game up and stop bitching about every little discrepancy against our sexual potential as viable mates. I used to hold a grudge about women in general not preferring Asian Men in general, but I find this to be false the more I stopped caring and focused on being the best man I can possibly be. Not just in the sexual arena, but in all aspects… be excellent. Women want excellent men. I really think an excellent man will shine through the fog of stereotypes and attract women on an instinctual level. The world’s not perfect and theres always going to be racism, (even inwardly directed) accept this, and move on.
Biologically it makes sense why American-Asian Women will gravitate towards other races (in this case white people being the majority in America) because our physiology drives us to mix and mingle our genes to diversify ourselves to survive, combat, and beat parasites. If you have ever traced your family tree or ethnic background, if you’re lucky you can go many 4-5 generations, some people 10 generations of accurate information. Present day humans (you reading this and me) are all derived from humans that mated, mingled, and evolved over millions of years. Don’t you think there could of been a few “white” ancestors or a some “black” relatives in your complex and historically unknown lineage? Based off the Law of Numbers, there is a very probable chance. So in fact American-Asian Women who seem primarily of Asian ancestry could have elements of other races and be acting upon a same-race attraction/unconscious dating preference when dating “outside” Asian Men. Since we’re all pretty much from immigrants in America, our names were altered (shortened, phonetically spelled, etc.) which further clouds accurate tracing of lineage. Who really knows our true complete racial composition? No one. Thats why these discrepancies are a fallacy.
While many men regardless of race will complain about things: “I’m too raceX for women to like me. I’m too fat, I’m too ugly, I’m too poor, etc.” I’m off to improve myself and enjoy women of all backgrounds and races because I LOVE WOMEN. My only agenda is to love myself and love the woman I’m present with.
Either way, I wish you the best with all women you desire, no matter what they appear to be!
- Justin
@ OCJUSTIN: Wow, what a well reasoned response.
@ uRB4N: I’m not now, nor have I ever sought to attack you personally, I don’t even disagree with all of your points and/or conclusions, but I do think that you’re making very broad statements based on very limited and anecdotal evidence. MT never said that he hasn’t had any great dates with Asian/AA women, he’s just pointing out one particular experience as an example. It doesn’t mean that he thinks that <b<ALL Asian women are in on some conspiracy against Asian men. If that were the case, he probably wouldn’t have gone out with the girl in the first place.
You mention some projects that AA women were involved with but fail to mention that there were also some Asian men supporting/participating in the projects as well.
Red Doors: Tzi Ma, Mao Zhao, Wayne Chang, Austin S. Lin, Tenno Tsai
China Dolls: Howard Chan, Hoa Pham, Hoa Pham, Alan Vu, Tim Chau
Broken Trail: Donald Fong, Chris Bang
It would seem that just as you can’t hold ALL AA women responsible for the actions of some, you can’t hold ALL AA men responsible for the actions of Tzi Ma, Mao Zhao, Wayne Chang, Austin Lin, Tenno Tsai, Howard Chan, Hoa Pham, Hoa Pham, Alan Vu, Tim Chau, Donald Fong, and Chris Bang. Or can you?
But also, you can’t possibly know how many projects might have been brought to the studios by AA women who encouraged and supported the Asian male/Asian female relationships, but were simply rejected, discouraged, or tabled. The studios themselves have more of a say in what gets developed and distributed than do fledgling producers, and perhaps the studios are only letting certain stories through their strainer. Has that occurred to you?
And lastly, why do you keep using the euphemism, “dating out” when you really mean to say “dating White?” Dating out means simply to date outside of your own race—being open to dating people of other races. But whenever you have used this term, it is always quickly followed by examples of how dating WHITE PEOPLE makes such powerful social statements. If that’s your opinion, then fine, but why not just say what you mean in the first place?
Maybe men of all ethnicities should rush to date White women, in an effort to make ourselves look more desirable to others.
I was there several times, although maybe not quite to that extent. I dated a few Asian woman who flat out said, “I don’t normally date Asian men.” I usually just shrugged and tried to see how far it would go. It usually didn’t go too far.
I also heard a few times about them likely to get along with a guy who was “half.” And that always meant half white, not half anything else.
For me, it was just fun to go out.
I think it’s good for Asian men to date interracially, and I generally applaud such efforts, but I wonder if there is something there where only Asian women really have the key. I blogged it last week here:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2010/02/taking-back-the-key/
It’s like you’ll always hold that psychological scar if you’re dating one ethnicity only because your own kind despise you. It’s kind of sad, but it is what it is, I guess.
King,
Man, that’s a long list o’ Asian male enablers!!!
“Can anyone eloquently explain the intersection of culture, race, class, and social economic mobility?”
Yeah. The higher you go, the Whiter it will be in America–economically, politically, culturally, and socially.
To climb the racist caste system that is American society, you got to assimilate into the Great White Way.
In terms of dating/marriage, it’s called Marrying into the Master Race.
You don’t need to wear a hood over your head or sport a swastika to be a White Supremacist.
Abercrombie and Fitch will do just fine.
I don’t see how this relates to Apolo Ohno’s win but nonetheless, the comments were interesting. Haha.
Well, at least South Korea beat him for real this time?
P2H
Haha! You know, it was funny because I was cheering for Apolo but actually expected him to lose to the South Koreans. I wanted him to win but didn’t think he’d have a chance. I was just hoping he’d get (at least) a bronze. When he was the third to cross the finish like, I stood up and said, “YES!!!” Everyone else was looking at me as if I were from another planet.
Apolo got robbed on the 5oom. He barely touched the Canadian dude. Short track skaters put their hands on their opponents butts’ all the time. I agree with him–that DQ had a lot to do with the fact that the guy who slipped was Canadian.
Well Hell, the way the Canadians have been losing in what was supposed to be “their” Olympics, on their on soil, they might as well hand the Canadians a medal or two –or FIVE!
Haha!
When your athletes can’t win, maybe your referees can help, right?
I saw the replay. The “gold” medalist had his own hand on the butt of the Korean who was in first place. If you’re going to hand out DQs for putting hands on butts, those DQs should apply to everyone!
“I can only ask, what do you think drove her to this state of absolute insanity? Did she look like she actually believed what she was saying?
I’m assuming that she meant anglo/asian hapas, by ambiguous… not Tiger Woods?”
Yes, I think she believed every word she was speaking. I think that if you tell a lie to yourself (and apparently to white people and ethinically ambiguous lovers) but especially to yourself over and over again, the lie becomes true. And as you know the truth sets you free.
Yes, she meant anglo/asian hapas by ambiguous. It was funny though. I think she maybe subconsciously realized her bullshit because she at on point mentioned that the only time one of her boyfriends even looked ethnically Asian was some guy who was half Irish and half Japanese. She said he was the darkest skinned guy she had ever been with. Then at another point she mentioned a half white and half Indian guy who looks totally white. But she said “he lived in Indian for a time, so does that count?”. To her ethnically ambigous really means ethnically ambigous within the white race…so you can’t tell if they are Irish, Scottish, English, or Dutch.
King, here’s a funny story I think you would enjoy. I was at a fund rasier for some Asian American event and was trying to talk to this Asian American girl. It wasn’t going too well. Short story even shorter, towards the end of the conversation, she looked me straight in the eye and said she didn’t believe that I was Asian. Then she turned around and started talking to some black dude who just came up from behind. He didn’t even have chinky eyes…100% black dude. Classic. Lol. I tend to tread in between worlds, sometimes I’m not Asian enough if at all, a lot of times I am not white enough, other times I am just ambiguous, and a few times I have been Hispanic. It’s interesting what I sometimes hear and see. Life is always interesting on the rainbow curve.
Man, how on earth did you end up on a date with this Wacko??? I’d have paid $50 just to see the expression on your face while she was babbling on about “racial ambiguity.”
So, the girl at the AA fundraiser… maybe she thought that you weren’t racially ambiguous enough! You should have introduced her to the first girl, that way when their outstretched hands touched each other, they’d cancel each other out in a flash!
jeez, why even waste your time on screwed up people? I’ve run into a few AA women who were a little messed up in the head in regards to their identity. One was bi-racial, but identified herself as being Irish and disregarded her Asian side. Didn’t matter that she had the map of Korea all over her face. I have no idea how I even got her out on a coffee date and soon as I did, I regretted even asking her out. Just ride clear, man, ride everlovin’ clear…I’ve got no patience with someone who’s screwed up like that.
MojoRider : “Just ride clear, man, ride everlovin’ clear…I’ve got no patience with someone who’s screwed up like that.”
this is why i think it might be better for asian guys to just date non-asians, they seem to have less self-hate issues