The Death of PUA

@ asian guy

Yeah, that’s about 2 parts common sense and 1 part Dale Carnegie seminar. But just add a fur hat, a fur collar, eyeliner, costume earrings in both ears, and an undergrown goatee, and you’ve just passed into the PUA zone.

@ King

I find PUA interesting because it actually teaches the average frustrated chump a foundation and the basic skills necessary to become a more sociable person. These are the things that many of us aren’t taught by our parents or closer associates.

Yes it may be common sense, but how often does a guy execute and follow through with what should be done? The difference is, its about practice to gain the confidence to hold your own when interacting with a woman. You can read as much as you want and understand the theory, but its pointless if you don’t do it yourself.

Lastly, if PUAish behavior is becoming mainstream, then perhaps the average frustrated chump may be sought after after all! This is what women get for putting the genuinely nice guys on the friends ladder.

“I find PUA interesting because it actually teaches the average frustrated chump a foundation and the basic skills necessary to become a more sociable person. These are the things that many of us aren’t taught by our parents or closer associates.”

Ah, once again into the PUA abyss…

I agree with you MaSir, that the basic idea that you’ve articulated above is actually a very good one. That would not only be a good thing for men, but also women would benefit from it. Unfortunately however, that is never how PUA is actually practiced in the real world.

The reason for this is because PUA training is sold as a commodity (a good for which there is demand) and therefore the movement itself is market driven, but wholly unregulated. Nobody seems to be in it just to help “the average frustrated chump” unless it is to help him to spend $800 and become an even bigger chump. Once money becomes the driving force behind any movement, then marketing kicks in and the “truth” is measured only in terms of whatever the competition said last week. Look at this statement.

1. We can help you to get over your anxiety over approaching women, and help you to build confidence and your own sense of style. We can help you to be a better conversationalist and how to use humor without becoming a joke yourself. Most importantly, we will help you to bring the best out of yourself, to express your true feelings, articulate your life goals, personal philosophy, and deepest emotions. There’s really no need to ever feel awkward, shy, or uncomfortable again.

OK, now this one.

2. You can have the women of your dreams—you know, the really hot ones that you deserve! Forget about that mousy little admin you’ve been eyeing at work, you can have your pick of models, actresses, and beauty queens! Once you understand how women’s brains work, you can get layed whenever you want, and it’s EASY once you know how! Of course, nothing will work 100% of the time on 100% of the women, but hey, 97% ain’t bad, right? Come to our seminar and you can be the true man that you’ve always wanted to be.

Do you see the difference? The first statement is exactly what you were describing in your post, the second statement is how PUA is actually advertised to potential clients (young fools). However, which statement do you think will actually draw more clients and bring more notoriety, success, and acclaim?

This is why, in this case, the crap will always floats to the top of the PUA bowl.

@ King

Your comparison illustrates the natural progression of how markets work. PUA was never a commodity when it first started; it was a luxury to be able to receive such training because of its rarity. The market wasn’t completely saturated back then like it was today. Its been commoditized over the years because of the surge in demand from the public. All these PUAs, legitimate or not, are milking the market for how much they can get. Some are the real deal, others aren’t.
Some are catering toward an audience looking to improve their social life, others are solely on getting laid. As asian guy mentioned below you, the problem may be in the way PUA is being marketed and advertised not PUA itself.

Asian PUAs such as Asian Playboy have been around almost since the genesis of the movement with the intention to help Asian men become better socialites and in the process get laid. If Asian men are always labeled as asexual creatures, then this is a sure way to help tear down that stereotype we’ve internalized to affect the way we view women and the way others view us. Yes, we are actually capable of being confident and sexy.

Part of King’s issue and my issue is that we’ve dealt with these ABCs of Attraction PUAs. Both King and I have spoken with them, exchanged written messages with them, and even (in my case) met with them. We’ve met former friends, former girlfriends, etc. And unfortunately, we KNOW that the practice is different from the rhetoric. In fact, the practice is much worse than anything said or implied in the marketing, advertising, and anything else that is publicly available. We’re talking sexual harassment, plagiarism, coerced sex, lying, and the worst kind of gender relations ever. We’re talking shadiness of the shadiest shades. Real beta strategy. In a few words–it’s bad.

I don’t know anything about APB’s own personal life, but I can tell you that the behavior of his instructors and followers has been bad in some cases, down right despicable in others. Let’s just say it’s neither something that would raise the status of Asian American men, nor is it something that any honorable man would be proud to be a part of.

@ Jaehwan

If what you say is true, then this institution is no different than any other that began with the best intentions of improving thy self i.e. some of these instructors are abusing the system going astray from its original intentions.

Here is where I look to Bruce Lee to guide me through righteous steps, “Absorb what is useful, Discard what is not, Add what is uniquely your own”.

@ King

Never did I condone such behavior of sexually harassing women and coercing them into the sack. I’m defending a movement that is helping Asian-American males break out of their goody-too-shoe mold. The one we’re always being accused of: geeky, quiet, shy guy too embarrassed to go up and talk to a girl he’s interested in because he’s a wuss.

You may not have been that guy which is great. Maybe you’re a blessed Asian-American guy when it comes to the ladies. I don’t know and I don’t care, but some of us weren’t born “naturals”. Thus, we look to other self-help material that is out there and PUA happens to explain the Game succinctly and down to a science.

If you want to distinguish between good PUA from bad PUA, then be my guest. I’m all for it. But not ALL of it is crap. So to make myself clear akin to that of asian guy’s post, I embrace the “good things” about PUA and REJECT the bad.

Nevertheless, the fact is, PUA is where I learned it.

“Never did I condone such behavior of sexually harassing women and coercing them into the sack. I’m defending a movement that is helping Asian-American males break out of their goody-too-shoe mold.”

Same here Masir, my statement was not meant to imply that you were doing those things, it was in agreement with your statement, and then I added a little more to it. I wasn’t meant to be an indictment of you.

I understand. I think both you and King bring up valid points. Personally, I had listened to and read some of Anthony Robbins and Dale Carnegie’s material. There’s a reason why they’re successful. Their methods have been proven to work, but this goes for PUA as well. I’ve used the line of “Who lies more, men or women?” once in my entire life when I first started reading PUA material but haven’t used it since. Why?

Simply because I’ve evolved from being what you call a “sketch artist”. Nowadays, when I want to speak to a woman because I’m interested, I’ll try to conjure up something original and just talk to her. This is what I think is lacking from many Asian-American men - the willingness and the courage to just say “Hi”. Even to this day its still scary, but PUA actually acted as a catalyst in pushing me to muster the courage to approach a woman AND attract her. I’m emphasizing the word “attraction” because the last thing I want is another female friend who whines to me about her relationship problems or how much she likes this white guy. No spank you.

With that, its a shame and a disappointment that a woman was sexually harassed. Not every female is going to be interested in me or have the same attraction switches. In fact, probably only a select few. Just because some guy may be a PUA doesn’t make him God’s gift to women.

Here’s what’s funny though. Just as men have PUA, women have their own, How to snag a millionaire services. Not as widespread as PUA, but I don’t know what’s worse; being used for your body or being used for your money.

*image*

“Their methods have been proven to work, but this goes for PUA as well. I’ve used the line of “Who lies more, men or women?” once in my entire life when I first started reading PUA material but haven’t used it since. Why?”

Yeah, but just because you learn to use a tool from PUA doesn’t mean that you are practicing PUA, any more than learning a single move from Kung Fu means that you can now call yourself a Kung Fu fighter. PUA is the total and collective theory of asshattery disseminated by the Captain Morgan wannabes.

“Actually, I used many tools from PUA which proved to be effective. I learned more about the Game from OG PUAs than anywhere or anyone else”

First of all it’s not really a Game—nobody is keeping score. It’s much bigger and much realer than that. But secondly, what we’ve been saying all along is that PUA is a melange. It’s 2 parts common sense, 1 part Dale Carnegie seminar, and about 20 parts selfish, sexist, misogynistic, arrogance. So, if a few things work for you, that you learned from PUA, then you can just chalk that up to the parts borrowed from either common sense, or the Dale Carnegie seminar. The rest is rubbish.

The pity is that if a guy starts using PUAisms to try and get at the womenz, he will inevitably credit his success to their METHOD. But he might have been just as successful if he had gained the confidence to approach a woman by any other means out there. Yet, he never sees any of his failures as a result of the METHOD—only the successes.

Think about it.

I’m not saying that it’s impossible to get any good advice out of the PUA teachings, but it’s like trying to fish Cheerios out of a porta potty.

Very well, MaSirI’m willing to listen.

“I may try to win a over woman to come out on top (no pun intended) and beating out any formidable male contenders who are also trying to win her over.”

Ok, so how do you do that?

“my philosophy regarding such has always been the same. No idea is 100% original.”,

That is illogical MaSir, the first of any idea is, by definition, 100% original.
But I understand the utility of synthesis.

“do you have any other materials to recommend?”
Let me wait on that. I’d like to better understand where you’re coming from.