Thanks Mojo–another violent incident coming straight out of Philly. This incident is a bit gray in terms of what happened and what the consequences should be.
If you look at the video above, there was a shooting on a busy street. Some facts are not in dispute: Gerald Ung, a third year law student, fired six gunshots at Edward DiDonato, a former captain of the Villanova University lacrosse team, hitting him in the hand, abdomen, shoulders, and chest. Immediately after the shooting, Ung used his cell phone to call the police and waited until they arrived. He’s being charged with attempted homicide and aggravated assault. The gun was licensed. DiDonato is a nephew of a prominent Philly politician.
Mojo’s question is whether this is self-defense. In the video above, Ung draws his gun, and DiDonato continues to come forward. After the shots are fired, DiDonato continues to throw punches. The difficulty is that DiDonato is huge. He’s a big m#$f%^g lacrosse player. He continues to walk forward despite the fact that there’s a gun pointed right at him, and he continues to fight after being shot. Does this constitute self-defense? If you look at the comments here, it looks like most believe it was self-defense. Most comments under the original story seem to think the same thing.
What do you think?
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One should never branish a gun unless one intends to use it. Apparently Ung used it. I am curious to know why he pulled it out in the first place and why he did not flee. It does not seem the gun was out for long.
I think if Ung warned him to stay away and was trying to flee (although you cannot tell from the edited clip and the lacrosse player kept advancing and there was no where to flee, then you have a good case for self-defense.
We don’t flee like wussies in America. We have the right to occupy and breathe in any public space. We stand our ground until the first blow goes down. Who’s with me? Who’s packing heat?
This is really sad….
Its clear that the pursuing party was attacking Ung and the other female and male with him. Ung and his two friends are trying to walk away, while the three men keep following/harrassing them. If any one has been in this kind of situation before where you have three big jock white guys attacking/verbally threatening two smaller asian males and an asian female who wouldnt feel that their lives are under threat?
I wonder if Ung and his family has enough money to afford an appropiate legal defense other wise it seems that he’ll definately not receive a fair trial in that city.
It will be even worse if Ung is the only son/ eldest son of the family, if hes imprisoned it will be much harder for his parents/younger siblings to survive. How will Ungs parents be able to pay for Ungs legal defense and their younger childrens education costs? If Ungs the only child, whos going to take care of his parents?
Even though Ung defended himself, he still lost. Its a sad day for Ungs family…..
my first impression is that the big white lacrosse player was drunk and belligerent looking for an easy target.
keep us updated, and i think i might be interested in donating to Ung’s legal defense cause (if one ever gets set up).
When I first heard about this, I thought, “okay, we don’t know the entirety of the circumstances. let’s not judge too quickly.” But after viewing the security camera tape and then finding out that the kid who got shot comes from a politically connected family, I changed my tune.
Right now, we don’t know what was said, how this got sparked, but it seems as if Ung drew his weapon as a last resort, when things started getting out of control, ie, he felt an imminent threat of serious injury or bodily harm. And that fits in with the legal definition of self defense. I just don’t want to see this guy get railroaded by city politics and who this kid’s uncle is. The irony is, the NRA loves this stuff—right to carry, self defense, etc, but where are they now?
mT, I think you are talking about Texas.
Using a firearm is a last resort.
FWIW, I am pro 2nd amendment and the right to bear arms, but there is a time and place to draw any weapon. My jury is still out on whether or not Ung used it appropriately, bit it seems he follow protocol and so it is more likely than not he did. For example, he did call the cops and wait for them to show up and identified himself as the shooter. This is by the book, the right thing to do. And I’ll bet dollars to donuts Ung used slugs. As for me, I only carry hollow point unless I am at target practice.
Mojo: Great point, I would love to hear how the NRA comes down on this one. But I am not sure the report will be factually correct, so that might color any persons opinion.
American Girl wrote:
“mT, I think you are talking about Texas.
Using a firearm is a last resort.
FWIW, I am pro 2nd amendment and the right to bear arms, but there is a time and place to draw any weapon. My jury is still out on whether or not Ung used it appropriately,…”
Where in my post did I say that using a firearm shouldn’t be the last resort???? Unless it’s a crime everywhere else to occupy public space and not flee when assholes follow and harrass you all the way down the street, and decides to bum rush you, I would have to say Texas is a pretty awesome and righteous place to live.
Really? Your jury is still out on whether Ung used the gun appropriately? Really? What more proof do you need than the video. It doesn’t matter what happened, who said what, or who started the argument. I understand you’re playing it safe and speaking from a certain legal background and a certain system of justice. But come on, let’s have some common sense. There are two groups : 3 guys vs 2 guys and 1 girl. The 3 guys are following the other group and approaching aggressively as one of the three guys is in the street walking parallel to the group. The three guys are bigger and one of them decides to rush the guy who pulled the gun. So the guy pulls out his gun after he’s been bum rushed. Isn’t pulling out the gun plenty of warning to the 3 guys to back the fuck up. Do you honestly think warning them verbally would have stopped the three from proceeding. Are you kidding me? The other 2 guys were right behind them and kept coming so what the fuck is he suppose to do?
So to recap unless you are a trained fucking killer who routinely gets into these types of situations and comes out on top with the coolness of a cold blooded assassin, there is no time to think and rationalize that : “oh shit, this guy totally initiated physical assault by bum rushing me and my group which includes a female, but hey, since I am a trained bad ass mofo, I will calmly warn these privileged asshats that if they do not back off, I will lay down the law and I may even mention that I am packing heat so they will take me seriously. But if they don’t, I will pull my gun out with the quickness and skill of a trained secret operative as soon as I detect within a nanosecond of being punched in the face or having my friends get punched in the face. Then and only then will I act in self defense and be in the right in the eyes of the law and not be screwed in this great country of mine.
And what does slugs vs hollow point have to do with the case? They’re both legal aren’t they? Also, why are you willing to bet on this? What does it have to do with anything? That’s not being neutral, waiting for the facts, or having the jury still be out as much as you’d like your post to reflect. No disrespect, but sometimes I just don’t understand where you are coming from American Girl? I mean I do understand but I really don’t understand that way of thinking at all.
Of course, now the machine is spinning it like DiDonato was a hero:
“Nova grad reportedly stepped in front of gun to save friends in Old City shooting”
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/homepage/82231277.html?cmpid=15585797
Might as well cue in Whitney Houston.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19rC-Fl-KwM
don’t forget that Ung was also protecting not just himself but his friends as well. legally, DiDonato or any of his friends don’t have to throw a punch at all towards Ung and his friends. It is the REASONABLE belief that serious bodily injury to himself or others is IMMINENT that constitutes the self defense argument and allows for force to be used. However, as I understand it, the force used must not be greater than that to stop the imminent attack. For example, Bernard Goetz, the NYC subway shooter, continued to fire his gun after the would be muggers were already down and the threat was stopped. That is NOT self defense anymore.
As stated, we don’t know the circumstances of this skirmish, whether there was a racial component to this, if DiDonato and his friends were using racial slurs towards Ung or what. let’s withhold judgement on that for now. But I’d hate to see Ung get railroaded just because DiDonato’s family is politically connected and powerful.
Punching someone in the head can be fatal.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/05/11/state/n145855D62.DTL
Some folks don’t like running the risk of dying in the street.
That guy DiDonato definitely has deep connections. A family friend acting as spokesperson, who happens to OWN a media relations firm? This is getting out of hand! I’m just thinking that the dude must’ve been drunk to be charging a guy with a gun. Drunken hero? Drunken master?
I’m waiting to hear the whole story, but I agree with Eric (oi, what’s going on???) that you can die from a punch. When there’s a large athlete about to pound your head in, you’re kind of taking a risk by waiting to see what he decides to do.
mT, First of all, only the first line was directed at you. You want to be the man and protect yourself, the only state that seems okay with that is Texas. Remember the Japanese exchange student to what shot trick-or-treeting about a decade ago? The homeowner got away with calling that “self defense.”
Second, I said “more likely than not.” Did you just stop reading or do you want to get into some verbal war with me? This is a blog, I don’t have time to explain everything to you and spoon feed my thoughts to you. FWIW when I said “more likely than not, I meant — more likely than not, Ung did the right thing. But I don’t know the whole story, so my jury is out. You got a problem with that? Well, I guess that is the way it is.
@American Girl, Sadly, it seems that you are the one that stopped reading and need everything spoon fed to you. What’s worse, what you have read and misinterpreted from my initial post onward and from the circumstances of this case itself is simple minded and for lack of a better worded retarded. In addition, you nicely and neatly avoided addressing all the issues I brought about your “thoughts” which you seem to hold very high. So it’s a waste of time to expalin any of this to you. But I will say briefly the following.
I addressed exactly what you wrote in its entirely and I understood exactly what you said (which you dont even have the common decency to return in kind). If your lack of reading comprehension is greater than your insecurity and defensiveness, then that’s not my problem. I have a problem with how you dont think he “used the gun “appropriately”. And now you added in you most recent post that what you actually meant was that you don’t know the whole story to which I also addressed already. Look, whatever happened before that wasn’t caught on the video is irrevelant. All we need to know is right there on the video. It’s a simple self-defense case. Because self defense doesn’t need to take into account whether the Asian guy was cursing out the white guys mothers for the past hour before they followed them and rushed him which is physcal assult. I am not a lawyer and even I know this shit.
I think the problem is that you are trying to make a value judgement on Ung’s character in order for you to have the whole story instead of looking at the actual facts and actions relevant to the very precise time or distinct window that estabishes a self defense argument. For example, you don’t shoot a clansman or a trick or treating Japanese exchange student for that matter just because they show up at your door despite your fear of the violent history of white supremecists and the weird and deadly reputation of oragami folding ninjas. The second half of that was sarcasm just to spoon feed you. Do you know much about Texas home property/ defense laws or the actual case itself? Do you think that if was some white trick or treating kid who got shot and killed, that the outcome would be different? Are you one of those people who believe that every verdict ever handed out was done with due process, fairness, and like totally legal?
And again, what does slugs vs hollow point have to do with the case? They’re both legal aren’t they? Also, why are you willing to bet on this? What does it have to do with anything? That’s not being neutral, waiting for the facts, or having the jury still be out as much as you’d like your post to reflect.
You disappoint on many levels. Sigh, I guess that’s the way it is.
***irrelevant*** spelling
If someone is about to strike you, you don’t get an automatic pass at shooting them with a gun. It might be, but it might not.
If Ung used a JHP, there would be a big hole in the back of the lacross player. Wounds sound moke like slugs and not JHP or FMJ, but I cannot tell based on the picture. Ung would be more in the right if he carried slugs in an urban area and it is more likely than not he has the proper training for carrying his firearm and therefore it would lend to the belief that he used it approriately as a last resort.
My bad grammar “It might be, but it might not.”
Anyway, if someone is going to hit you, there might be a self defense reason to shoot them, such as, someone is going to strike a woman holding a newborn baby and that strike might kill the baby, and the only thing that would stop it is to shoot the guy in the head. That is self defense, but if someone is going to crack you in the face because you called his mother a whore, we’ll your options are to duck or hit him first, you don’t get to shoot him and call it self defense. If that were the case then every a-hole would be out there trying to provoke a strike so he or she can draw a gun and play Wild Bill Hickok.
It is terrible the media cannot report the facts. Part of the problem is that most people do not know how to separate facts from opinion. The thing that makes me sick is that reporters get away with that by asking people what they think or how they feel. It doesn’t matter. No one can get a straight story despite there being a dozen or so witnesses and some grainy video clip.
From pinheads link, this quote really irked me:
–>…Rubel said, noting that the family had been told that DiDonato stepped in front of the gun and saved the lives of his two friends.
His family considers him a hero, Rubel said.<–
This is just a bunch of fluffy crap, not news.
American Girl,
of course, calling someone’s mom a whore and then drawing a weapon to shoot when the person starts throwing a punch is not self defense. That isn’t a last resort. Ung didn’t draw at the first moment of being harrassed; rather, it appears from the video, the situation escalated until he felt there was the IMMINENT threat of serious bodily injury to himself and others.
There has been other beating deaths in Philly and one that I have a connection to. A co-worker of mine’s cousin was beaten to death in Philly outside the ball park.
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/20090727_Bachelor_party_turns_into_deadly_brawl.html
Ung probably had that in mind, that if he didn’t do anything to protect himself and his friends from DiDonato and his boys, they might face the same fate.
Also, when the family starts coming out and putting spin on the story, it makes me wonder if Ung is going to get rail roaded. We don’t know what happened, it’s going to boil down to “my word” against “your word” stuff. But that the family is coming out with DiDonato being a hero and protecting his friends to maybe influence public opinion? Well, we’ll see about that.
This may sound crazy, but from a legal standpoint, wouldn’t it be better to wait until after the guy has clearly thrown the first blow? I know that here in California, you even have to be careful shooting people who are breaking into your house. Even that may not be considered Self Defense. Once the guy has begun an unprovoked attack, however, it would be much easier to make the case.
Don’t get me wrong, I believe that it was self defense, especially because, as Mojo mentioned above, they didn’t stop once the gun was brandished. Who’s crazy enough to keep coming when a gun is aimed at you?
To answer Mojo’s question, it goes back up to my first statement, you do not brandish, unless you are going to use. You never point your gun at anything you don’t intend to shoot. People will argue Ung intended to use as soon as he brandish. The question remains as to why he brandished? We do not see or hear what happened when Ung drew. That is the moment that counts, not so much the moment he pulled the trigger. Trigger pulling is the part the media likes to show.
It looks like that girl in the background managed to diffuse something. Was she with Ung or the other party? But still three guys advanced at Ung.
I’d like to see a toxicology report on the “vic.” Many people who draw do not intend to use. I wouldn’t be surprised if the “vic” had enough machismo or was high to think he could disarm Ung. Maybe we should make some noise about DiDonato’s tox report. King might be on to something. If this frathead was on Meth, speed or MDNA, maybe he thought he was invincible . . .
King,
“Who’s crazy enough to keep coming when a gun is aimed at you?”
Someone who is really really really really really brave. Or maybe someone who is, as the family’s media relations expert spokesperson said, a “hero.” Or a superhero. Unless those bullets were laced with kryptonite, they’d just bounce off Superman.
“Someone who is really really really really really brave. Or maybe someone who is, as the family’s media relations expert spokesperson said, a “hero.” Or a superhero. Unless those bullets were laced with kryptonite, they’d just bounce off Superman.”
Or, as the sapient American Girl says, someone who is really, really, really, really, High!
i’m a gun owner myself but not a gun nut. interestingly enough, the NRA hasn’t come out and said anything but gun right advocates have their thoughts about it and don’t like the idea that Ung is going up against old money and political connections.
http://forum.pafoa.org/news-123/86076-old-city-shooting.html
one PA poster has stated that he has cached DiDonato’s twitter page before it went offline and would send it to Ung’s legal counsel if need be. lots of alcohol references by DiDonato on his twitter page, which doesn’t necessarily indicate violence. a lot of post college kids are still in that college drinking mode.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=30324
Gerald Ung’s friends have started a non-profit corporation, The Gerald Ung Legal Defense Fund, Inc for his defense at http://www.theungfund.org. You can also view our event page, donate, volunteer or leave a comment or your opinion. Thanks.
Not to beat a dead horse, but from is visible in the video, the shooting looks justified. The shooter, outnumbered by assailants and fearing for his life, drew a gun after one guy tries to bumrush him. The second guy does the same and is shot several times as a result.
Were those 6 shots necessary? The defense can argue yes, since the shooting victim continued to advance forward despite being shot.
Race aside, there is a lot of questions to be asked about the incident. You could argue it from both sides and get a just verdict.
The latest on Gerald Ung’s situation:
“Gerald Ung, the third-year Temple University law school student charged with shooting a Villanova University graduate five times in front of the Fox29 studios in January, must go to trial, a Philadelphia judge said yesterday.
Despite arguments during the preliminary hearing from defense attorney Jack McMahon that Ung, 28, acted in self-defense after being confronted by four men, Philadelphia Municipal Judge David Shuter said his ruling was based on the number of bullets fired at vital body parts.”
http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/91168904.html?cmpid=15585797
I don’t have a good feeling about this; I think the guy is going to get the shaft due to the so-called victim’s political connections.
I don’t have a good feeling about this either. I wonder if any local orgs are helping Ung’s cause.
Would love to see the verdict go his way. My boss told me the other day, “An armed society is a polite society.” You wouldn’t have crap like this happening.
even the judge’s comments seemed odd; his ruling based on the number of bullets FIRED AT VITAL BODY PARTS?
the guy was advancing and Ung was firing to protect himself, all of this happening within seconds. LIke Ung had time to focus his sights on shooting DiDonato in the foot? His arm? His thigh? C’mon! He was firing at center mass, the largest target based solely on reaction. There isn’t any time to think.
it also seems that the PR spin is still ongoing for DiDonato. DiDonato discusses having learned humility—but it’s not remorse for his involvement with Ung:
http://www.laxpower.com/laxnews/news.php?story=19606
EJ, I don’t like that everyone being armed makes for a more civil society because what kind of a society is it when you have to take a measure like that? But then again, look at the state society is in now anyways. If it’s all going to hell, then why not have mutal assured destruction?
This case is a tough one.
Both of them are stupid. From the video only which is not that clear and not knowing all the events I would lean to self defense but he was still reckless. Where they coming back from a club or bar at 2:30 in the morning? I support the 2nd admentdment but there are too many people who want to carry heat to be “cool”. He could have easily missed that guy and hit a person on the street, he could have killed one of his friends so easly. I wonder if they knew he had a gun?
this could have been so much worse. This is going to cost 50k at least in lawyer fees (could be many times that).
in the above referenced philly.com article, there was already testimony given:
“Just one witness was called to testify yesterday – Seth Webster, one of DiDonato’s three friends present at the shooting. After leaving an Old City bar, his group stopped at 4th and Market, where one friend started doing pull-ups on scaffolding, he said.
Ung and a female and male friend soon approached, and the female friend started doing pull-ups as well, Webster said.
Ung became upset and heated words were exchanged, Webster said.
One of the men, Tom Kelly, tried to rush Ung, but the woman with Ung stepped between them and was bumped, Webster said.
At this, Webster testified, Ung pulled his gun, pointed it at Kelly and waved it at him and DiDonato while saying, “Back the f— up.”
DiDonato said, “Who you gonna shoot?” and moved toward Ung, Webster said.
When Ung kicked at DiDonato to keep him back, DiDonato grabbed at Ung’s leg, said Webster. As he fell backward, Ung began firing, according to Webster, and fired several more shots from the ground. After DiDonato had fallen, Ung appeared in shock, knelt beside the fallen man, touched his leg and called 9-1-1 on his cell phone, said Webster, who also called.”
this is just one account of what occurred and yes, we don’t really know what exchange took place. Regardless of how stupid they are, Ung had no choice but to defend himself and his friends. People have been beaten to death in “fist fights” in that city. I don’t know if Ung carried to be a bad ass or to be “cool”;my take is that he knew the city could be dangerous and legally carried for protection.