(pic from here)
I read Emily Co’s piece on AbsolutelyFobulous about the Princess and the Frog, and the implications of ethnic princesses. In her piece, she writes:
I know we have Mulan and everything, but somehow she doesn’t seem to fit that Disney princess mold. I’m pretty girly, so I’d love to see an Asian princess who traipses around in a poofy dress, preferably wearing a tiara. I just simply didn’t identify with Mulan and I wonder if little Asian girls feel the same way. I can’t really picture them clamoring to wear Mulan’s armor for Halloween when they can don Belle’s yellow froufrou ballgown.
To me, Disney princesses are often an integral part of each girl’s childhood because they embody that fairytale fantasy most of us long for growing up. I certainly didn’t dream about dressing up as a boy, wielding knives with sweaty men in a war. And my other nitpick is that Mulan looks a bit too stereotypically Asian to me.
I like Emily’s piece because it’s straight up honest and without pretension. Although I gotta say that this piece brings back lots of unpleasant memories for me from the last days of the 44s. I remember those old conversations. I would raise questions–questions, not statements–about gender, and I’d be greeted with: “Jaehwan, how dare you not agree 100% with everything Gloria Steinem said during the 1970′s !” When I talked about theories from childrearing and medical experts like Michael Gurian and Louann Bridendine, people more or less said “Those child-rearing experts and neurologists don’t know know jack shit about real life!” I also remember the Miss Asian Oregon discussions too: “You call your winners ‘Queen’ and “Princesses?’ Isn’t that a throwback to medieval times? Man, this is sexist!”
I’ve kind of resigned myself to the fact that men can’t win this debate. For my Miss Asian Oregon participation, I just let Michelle or Liani handle the criticisms.
As for my own remarks, I will say this–why is it that only White women can be princesses? When there’s a Homecoming Queen or Rose Princess, no one bats an eye. It becomes a community event. But the minute an ethnic woman takes a title of Princess or Queen, suddenly it’s as if the sky has fallen and somehow whatever title or organization that sponsored the crown has become an institution of oppression according to “activists.” Double standard, anyone?
(I realize I’m not going to win, but I’m going to continue anyway…)
I appreciate Mulan and what she has done for Asian feminism. If you look at the leaders of present day China, many women see Mulan as a warrior ideal, and they’ve used that story to help their own personal journeys. Mulan hasn’t done as much for Asian American feminism–Maxine Hong Kingston unfortunately hijacked that image and tarnished it with White supremacist racism (and ironically, despite the fact that she advertises herself as the “woman warrior,” she hasn’t done the warriorly thing by taking responsibility for her un-truths about Chinese culture). Still, it could work for Asian American women activists willing to do the right thing. The myth of Mulan has power.
But I agree with Emily–I don’t think that Asian American women or young girls should be forced into the Mulan role.
Seriously, there shouldn’t be anything wrong with being beautiful and “frou frou.” I say this not only for Asian women, but for minority women in general. Femininity shouldn’t be a bad thing. Princess Diana was feminine. Jackie Kennedy was feminine. They both achieved great things and served as an inspiration to women.
Could it be that this embrace of femininity is what has been missing from the dialogue about Asian American female empowerment? On the converse side, it’s not to say that women have to become princesses, but when princesses get no voice, could that create hard implications for the group as a whole?
(By the way, type “Asian Princess into a google search for images, and prepare to be horrified. Safe for work, but pretty darn horrific.)
Related posts:
But here is an...
I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
We have the Angry Asian Man Syndrome. There seems to be an Angry Asian Woman Syndrome going around on the Web. Something about the legitimate and perceived frustrations of Asian women coupled with the safe anonymity of vocalizing on the Internet seems to bring this syndrome out in some women. They have taken dogma and political correctness to a stifling level, as evidence by the demise of the Fighting 44′s.
I’m going to have a daughter, so the bottom line is I want her to have all opportunities and choices available to her. Whether she identifies with Mulan or Cinderella or both, it’s her choice. That’s the goal of any civil rights movement: that one person has the right to choose from the same opportunities as any other person. People mistake the method (assimilation, diversity, integration) with the goal (equal rights and opportunities).
My wife is a warrior princess, an iron fist wearing a velvet glove. I’m sure my daughter will have her gentle tenacity.
Intent is the determining factor. When we aspire to be princesses so that men will want us more than they want other less-princessy (?) women and that is the condition we need to feel good about ourselves, then there’s a problem. If beauty and femininity are applied in a way that advances society or brings about some greater good, then I’m all for it. It’s when beauty and femininity are applied as currency to valuate a woman’s worth through the standards of a male-dominated society, that’s when there’s a bone to pick with it.
As for visibility of cartoon Asians in poofy dresses and tiaras, that’d be great, so pitch a story. It’s hard. I make no representation of being an expert in East Asian history or folklore, but most of the stories of Asian female legends I grew up with were stories about: (a) Mulan, (b) concubines, or (c) goddesses. Working a cartoon Asian in a poofy dress and tiara within those parameters would certainly be an interesting exercise. In any case, I love the story of Mulan and as a kid, aspired to be like her.
BWW, you’re a winner to me. Still, do you really want to win a debate or just be content with being heard? Thanks for sharing.
-L
I’m not going to see this crap, no matter how “unoffensive” it allegedly is. It may well a film that treats black people respectfully –a FIRST for Disney– but I still won’t see it now or ever!
Why? Because the original concept behind this movie was to prove that a black “princess” was utterly ridiculous and this movie was meant to be an undeniable certification of that “idea.”
A year ago I was horrified to find that Disney, the same good white folks who gave us the Minstrel-show CROWS in Dumbo –”I dun seen ’bout ever-thin’ when I see ‘n elephant flyyYY!”– and a bunch of other racist bullcrap, were about to present “their” first black princess. Only a fool (or a white suburbanite who enjoys such crap) wouldn’t recoil in horror at the mention of the Princess and the Frog. And sure enough Disney tried to use the “slow-curtain” method by leaking mildly offensive stuff at first, meant to slowly desensitize people to the hardcore racism that was to come. This princess would be a New Orleans mammy-in-training surrounded by buffoonish Negroes, all of them looking like blackface caricatures: HUGE lips, enormous noses, bug-eyes and talking like slaves on a plantation.
In other words, she would be something white Disney-philes could laugh at and say, “Yep, that’s how those people are! And even if they ain’t, it’s about what you’d expect from them anyway!”
But the early pics and details that leaked online were correctly attacked by African Americans, who accurately realized that the Mouse House was up to it’s old tricks again. And once Disney saw that they were under a microscope they SUDDENLY started rolling out a PR battle train assuring everyone that all concerns would be addressed and not to worry, we didn’t see what we clearly saw. In other words they got caught and were feverishly throwing away whole reams of films, furiously rewriting the whole damned thing.
In other words the movie had to be all but remade from scratch.
This movie may well not be the minstrel show it was originally meant to be, but what does it say about Disney that in 2009 they were trying to do this anyway? That thsi movie was meant to be aimed at children, and meant to impress upon them that blacks were less-than or not worthy or respect like little white kids? Teaching racism from the cradle.
They may well have done the right thing eventually, but the fact they had to be dragged kicking and screaming is proof enough that no black person with any sense should buy ANYTHING Disney or Disney-related ever.
Disney has YET to do a movie with a black RESPECTABLE character –not some black girl forwarding a gimmick– in the lead as part of a major story. A kid with an amphibian?
Somehow I think the Mouse House can do better than that!
And as for Mulan. I think it was Co who said in her blog that Mulan still looked a bit too stereotypically Asian for her tastes –I would have liked to seen some specifics on what she meant so I could better understand- -but at least Mulan wasn’t presented as being in love with a goddam swamp rodent.
Asians and black people better get it through our thick skulls that as long as we sit on our asses waiting for white studios to do for us we will forever be the target of their racial malice and never given a true representation of ourselves.
There are PLENTY of wealthy black and Asian celebs in Hollywood, and black and yellow major players in the studios. So why are will still waiting on Disney to give us a few moldy crumbs?
When will someone out there have the guts to ante-up and do this thing right?
I concur with Neutral Observer. Fuck Disney.
Alpha,
I agree with you. It’s funny because it really doesn’t get out of hand except on the internet. It becomes a kind of politically correct mind control.
TZ,
I agree with you too. I think that’s the fine line between objectification–i.e. “she just nice to look at”–vs. being powerful with one’s physical presence. Like any idea or model, the princess model can be overdone to the point that it becomes currency.
L,
Thanks!
So here’s the evolution of Byron. In the past, I saw the internet as a means to create activism. At that point, winning the debate was important simply because I wanted people to see that there was another way to see life, that there were other goals that were perfectly acceptable, that our activism shouldn’t be guided by rigid ideology that isn’t based on real life experience.
Then I realized that some, not all, of these people (as Alpha references) will never take it beyond the web, and that they will always prefer the prestige of being internet warriors who are happy to throw insults and to ruin a stranger’s day. At that point it became about being heard.
NO and Anna,
Point heard and taken. I’m still a bit peeved at Disney (after that Miley Cyrus incident) and haven’t seen this movie yet. I think most reviews by African Americans so far have been positive. As for me, I’m so tapped out on kids movies that it’ll take some hard wrestling to get me to see another.
I don’t know what black reviewers are saying about this movie. The ones I’ve seen have been critical of it. And considering where this movie started from it’s not surprising that some bourgeious negroes would fall over themselves just because Disney dialed back the blatant racism a little bit.
You do realize Byron that it was black baby boomers who drooled like dogs when the Mouseketeer Club came on TV. Black baby boomers have been the most shameless at prostrating themselves for white approval, no matter how grudging.
Between this, Precious and The Blind Side it’s jut been open season on blacks at the box-office. This crap is straight out of apartheid-era south Africa.
The Frog Princess is more Disney racist bullshit. The “princess” gets turned into a frog at the BEGINNING of the movie and stays a frog for most of the film. That’s what they don’t tell you.
Gee, did Cinderella gt turned into a pumpkin for most of her movie? Was ariel a goldfish for her movie? Was Snow White turned into a dwarf?
Then why the hell does Tiana get turned into a frog? This is a farce. And people need to understand that this is the first of a backlash across the board. White media types are clearly reacting to the changing “complexion” of the US in the 21st century. And theit response is to give themselves permission (as if they ever had to ask in the past!) to be as racist as they want.
If pressed on it Disney’s excuse will no doubt be that white audiences won’t be able to “relate” to a black princess. Uh, sure, they can relate to toys, a lion and even freaking monsters and insects, but a black person? Gee, I suppose that’s a bridge too far in Disney’s minds, such as they are.
You know, this is the same crap Hollywood peddled for the longest time as their excuse for why they wouldn’t push movies with black stars in the second largest entertainment market, Japan. They said Japanese people hate blacks, won’t watch anything with black people in it etc, etc, lying through their asses.
Now that Will Smith is the biggest star on the planet they say, “Well, it’s his music background that got him over with them.”
The truth is these are some bigoted lying pukebags who need to be stomped on.
I have to admit that I don’t know much about Disney’s The Princess and the Frog. I’m not even sure that I remember what the last big Disney animated feature was. I’ve had my own run-ins with Disney in the business world, and can’t say that I care for them, as a corporate entity. They have quite a reputation for pushing people around out here in SoCal.
@ Neutral: I’d like to catch up a bit on this subject. Can you point me to some of the earlier and more offensive Disney work that you’ve mentioned above? Or, if the work is nowhere to be found, can you point me to where it was originally posted? I’ll even take old blogs reacting to the original release of materials. Anything concrete that you have would be great.
I know that most of the time, when someone asks for proof (more information) on a subject, there is a connotation of disbelief. However, in this case, I’m not poo pooing what you’re saying, I just want something concrete to point to, when discussing the matter elsewhere, so I won’t have to say, “I heard it from some guy on the web.”
Thanks!
Uncle Walt and the Disney corporation have produced some of the most heartwarming, family-friendly movies in the history of cinema!
Children of all ages just love Mickey and Donald and Hannah Montana!
Here are some examples of Disney’s most multicultural, racially sensitive films:
http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/archive/2008/09/12/The-9-Most-Racist-Disney-Characters.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Donald-Duck-Imperialist/dp/0884770230
http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2007-03-25-songofthesouth_N.htm
The Frog Princess is more Disney racist bullshit. The “princess” gets turned into a frog at the BEGINNING of the movie and stays a frog for most of the film. That’s what they don’t tell you.
Gee, did Cinderella gt turned into a pumpkin for most of her movie? Was ariel a goldfish for her movie? Was Snow White turned into a dwarf?
Didn’t Mulan spend much of the movie dressed as a boy?
You know, this made me think. If you’re a black person who acts White, they call you an “Oreo.” If you’re an Asian person who acts White, they call you a “Twinkie.” What if you’re a black person who gets turned into a frog? Green on the outside, black on the inside.
This was review that I remember reading:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Movies/12/11/princess.frog.parents/index.html
I guess it wasn’t actual written reviews by black women, per se, but rather just interviews with some black women. The author could possibly be biased (and I don’t know the author’s race.).
Hey Jaehwan,
“”You know, this made me think. If you’re a black person who acts White, they call you an “Oreo.” If you’re an Asian person who acts White, they call you a “Twinkie.” “”"
I recently had a discussion with Maloy from House of Whoreship about this very issue-however we used the example of the characters in Harold and Kumar goes to White castle as an example.(She basically said that the two main characters replicated the privilege of two white frat boys, which set these “”white”" behaviours as the norm that poc need to assimilate into in order to be considered human)
My argument was that races dont have ownership over modes of behaviour, we are what we are, and so in that vein pocs cant “”act white”" because we are just acting as ourselves.
Her argument was that the fact that certain races position themselves where certain behaviours are associated with them, reveals the power demographics at work, and the fact white people have constructed a schema where liberal, modern, democratic ideas are associated with them means that all pocs who follow are just assimilating themselves to the standardised norm set out by white people.
Personally, i see the merits and truth of her words and respect her opinions, however i still disagree with some of her words. At the end of the day, its has to be relative, right? Who came up with the terms “”oreo”"twinkie”" anyway? was it white people? or Black and Asian people?
if it was white people, are they using preconceived ideas about how blacks and asians are supposed to act, then when they dont do so, its because they are “”secretly white on the inside”"? wtf?
if its other blacks and asians using this term, then what standards are they using as a reference point in order to determine what makes you “”white on the inside”"? wtf?
Its all so confusing lol…
King,
Disney is extremely racist. But they do it insidiously, in subtle ways so you cant even be sure what youre looking at. Especially if you watch their cartoons and movies individually. However in the context of the whole of what disney produces, its clear they have an agenda-one pushing white patriarchal supremacy into the minds of children worldwide.
if you youtube “”racist disney”" “”racist cartoons”" some people have compiled whole videos which illustrates this. I dont know if the people at Disney do it intentionally or if its just a product and reflective of the racial discrimination in wider society, but if you study the semiotics of Disney movies, a pattern emerges, repeated again and again which dehumanises pocs, and glorifies white supremacy.
Anna,
Hey, I was just thinking about you. We have family from Australia here. From Melbourne. They talk like you–at least to my ears.
How is Maloy doing? Please give her my best. Hope things are well with her in HK.
Harold and Kumar…well, at least I didn’t represent the only disagreement on the 44s! (although I may have been the worst…)
http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2008/04/27/harold-and-kumar-are-the-greatest-thing-aa-cinema-has-ever-seen/
I agree with you, Anna. We are what we are. Some of us may like acting like frat boys, whether or not White imperialism/colonialism has anything to do with it.
That was one aspect of Japanese society that pleasantly surprised me when I was in Japan. Here in the U.S., Asian people are somewhat marginalized, and we become defensive because, well, we have to be. It makes us somewhat similar. In Japan, because Japanese are the majority, and despite all the stereotypes, there is often a greater freedom to be what you can be. I met so many musicians, dropouts, frat-types, jock-types, and the like.
I think my view about frat boys is similar to my view about princesses. Their acceptance creates greater diversity, and therefore we should promote it. Frat boys themselves don’t necessarily hurt anyone, therefore there is no reason to object to them. And if it helps an Asian person with frat tendencies, then why not help the brother get some acceptance?
I personally don’t use the term “banana” or “twinkie” or “Oreo” myself, except to describe what other people say. Like you, I don’t think you can define a race by a behavior. Sure, Rice Chasers get holier than thou and smarmy as smarmy goes, but that’s a subset of people who abuse racial privilege, not a behavior linked to the race itself. The more diversity we welcome, the stronger we’ll be as a culture and as individuals.
“Disney is extremely racist. But they do it insidiously, in subtle ways so you cant even be sure what youre looking at. Especially if you watch their cartoons and movies individually. However in the context of the whole of what disney produces, its clear they have an agenda-one pushing white patriarchal supremacy into the minds of children worldwide.”
Hey, thanks anna123, some of the cartoons that I found in my search, I was already aware of, and some were new to me. I also found varying degrees of racism in cartoons from other animation studios.
The reason that I’m seeking more detailed information from Neutral, is because The Prince and The Frog is right now. Many of Disney’s worst cases of racism in cartoons occur before the era of segregation back when the whole country -more like, the whole world – was openly racist. In that sense, Disney was no better, but also, no worse than the prevailing attitudes all around them, both in Western society, and worldwide.
However, the information that Neutral is referring to would be an irrefutable example of racist attitudes at Disney today. That is why I’d like to see the actual source information that he sites.
Oops, I meant to say:
“Many of Disney’s worst cases of racism in cartoons occur before the era of desegregation…”
King, I ignored you before because I thought SURELY nobody is so stupid that they have to ask a question about Disney’s racism, past or present. This very thread has been about exactly that. Everyone gets it, but you. I do sympathize with you however. It must be SO hard having an I.Q. the same as your shoe size.
You’ve tried these moronic challenges against me before, and each time I’ve crushed you. No more. This is the last time I’ll ever respond to any dumb thing you say, and considering your large body of braindead posts that’s saying something!
What you are trying is the last resort of the ideologically whipped and hopelessly cornered: the endless nitpick defense. “Did I have sexual relations with that woman? Well, that depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is.”
You play dumb –though I doubt you have to try very hard!– pretending not to understand every word, syllable and comma of what the other person says. You are clearly being incredulous, but no matter how much proof is presented you will simply continue to pretend as if you dont’ understand and demand more examples/evidence/proof/etc when it’s obvious that no amount of proof will ever be enough because all you really want is to argue with somebody who got the better of you on numerous occasions. Well too bad jackass. There’ s a reason I keep winning these little arguments.
I guess you figure if you keep trying law of averages will eventually kick in and give you a win.
Others more knowledgeable than you’ll ever be have answered your stupid, rhetorical challenge in the above posts. Disney’s own output SINCE desegregation makes my point more clearly than any other “source” could.
What next moron, you want me to tell you who Mickey Mouse is too? Maybe I need to explain what the Mouseketeer club was? If you want to continue pretending you’re a total braindead idiot, then at least go all the way with it.
Life is hard king, it’s even harder when you’re willfully stupid. Being a shameless apologist for media racism may be how you get your giggles, but you don’t see anybody laughing. You strike me as one of those white trolls who gleefully defends any and every act of racism, but plays as if they’re some clueless fool who doesn’t truly get it.
Well, you got beaten here. Got it now?
“King, I ignored you before because I thought SURELY nobody is so stupid that they have to ask a question about Disney’s racism, past or present. This very thread has been about exactly that. Everyone gets it, but you. I do sympathize with you however. It must be SO hard having an I.Q. the same as your shoe size.”
Neutral, (sigh) do you really think that nobody has heard that old “IQ = Shoe size” joke before? You badly need some new material if you think that’s going to make you any points. Secondly, insulting someones I.Q is a meaningless tactic. If I’m not making sense, all you have to do is point out where I’m confused, and my lack of understanding will quickly be evident to anyone reading. But repeating 5th grade jokes in a effort to sound superior and “witty” is sadly transparent, and speaks more to your own level of intelligence than to mine. Trust me.
Now, as far as Disney goes, I didn’t ask you whether or not they were racist. In fact, I didn’t challenge your honesty, your integrity, or your intelligence. What I simply asked was if you could please produce some of the evidence you previously mentioned regarding The Princess Frog in your above post. But for some reason that has so angered you that you’ve come back with a lengthy post (all about me) that somehow seems to avoid answer any questions at all.
So, in the absence of meaningful dialog, I can only voice my assumptions.
1) You don’t have any real information. You’ve come here with a lot of self-righteous blather that’s 98% attitude and 2% “research.” You have no sources, you have no links, you have no articles to point to—you have nothing.
2) The reason that you have nothing is because you’re lazy. The very little work that it would take for you to quick check your “facts” is evidently too much for you to handle. Therefore, as soon as you hear some internet gossip that agrees with your perceptions of the world, you immediately latch on to it and assume that it’s true. Neutral, you can’t afford to be that damn lazy—do your homework, or expect to have people ask question any unproven assertions. We expect that much from a 7th grade book report.
3) But when someone does ask you to provide sources for your ranting bullshit, you fly off the handle. Nobody else here would have taken a polite request for more information as an attack. The reason that you do, is because any request for “real information” exposes the extent and ignorance of your fantasy posts. You’re a bullshitter, and you get mad when someone asks legitimate questions that expose the stink.
I’m not in love with Disney. I agree that they have a racist past, as does this entire country and many other countries as well. But knowing that doesn’t mean that I’m just going to just believe anything I hear without knowing where the information has come from and how credible it is. I asked you a specific question about specific comments that YOU made above, about a specific movie.
SO IT COMES TO THIS:
Do you actually have anything or do you just come here to rave a lot of nonsense at the web to make yourself feel better? If this is therapy for you, then fine, it’s up to Byron whether or not to charge you for sessions. But if you’re actually trying to communicate with intelligent people, then I ask you once again to SITE THE SOURCES or else your movie history facts are meaningless. Is that so hard for you to understand, Schnookums?
woah woah….lol, catfight!!!*runs grabs video camera* LOL!!
eerrr, i thought i drew the line on sailor moon. the princess and the frog was a parody on shrek right?
what happened to a story based in egypt?
mulan was ok, look at Xena.
do you want stories of submissive asian woman again? or does every asian person on the planet know martial arts?
kill bill breaks or re enforce stereotypes?
walt disney died way b4 there was a disney world, there were plans. plus look up epcot city on you tube. Walt Disney’s Original Plan for EPCOT – Part 1 Part 2 and Part 3
mtv has gone bad years ago.
racism is relative, you guys define bigotry as racism.
be careful with this.
there is religions and corporate culture to look into.
next thing you know pets are not people too?
should there even be pets? human pets?
learn their rules the way they see them, and then think like them on right and wrong. hate osama bin laden for abusing the muslim public trust, not the muslim public. al sharpton on the christian front? the pope?
poofy dresses and tiara’s are pretty european. so if the author of that article really desires to see poofy dresses and tiara’s on an asian face…is she saying she would rather see a more European looking asian character on disney?