Mr. Hyphen (click pic for source)
Okay, okay, okay. You all know how obsessive I am when it comes to thought issues, so I wanted to post one last thing before showing you all the Miss Asian Oregon Pageant.
Several times over the past month, people have mentioned male pageants. Larry mentioned Mr. Hyphen, and someone else mentioned….oh, I guess Mr. Hyphen is the only male pageant. A few female Thymos members said that they’d go to a Mr. Asian Oregon, and someone else suggested an Asian male bodybuilding competition. I personally wouldn’t be interested in bodybuilding–I think those guys look like overstuffed pillows, and I think it’s unhealthy–yet I do like the idea of a male pageant.
The problem is this–when it comes to men having their voices heard in this day and age, it more often than not comes down to one thing–money. As they say, it’s all about the Benjamins. That’s why people can’t get enough of John Gosselin, who pulled two hundred somewhat thousand dollars from his bank account, and who was generous enough to buy one of his new (now former) girlfriends an expensive car. That’s why people love Joel Osteen, who preaches the prosperity gospel and lives large. That’s why when you go to a party, people gravitate towards the old rich dudes who have their own businesses and real estate. As Lester Thurow mentioned in Building Wealth, money has become the source of power, and we ascribe all kinds of traits–intelligence, work ethic, and morality–to people who have money. (things may have changed a bit after Enron and Worldcom regarding the “morality” thing for the super-rich, but people still kiss up).
The only exception to the money rule is if a guy happens to be a performance artist–rock star, track star, basketball player. Women like them, and men want to be like them. But even within that world, there’s a financial hierarchy.
So I think there is a difference between male and female contests. Remember that our pageant is more of a spokeswoman’s competition–on the basis of the scoring system, it’s quite feasible for a woman who is 5’4, 150 lbs. to win, and the title would bring the winner many more opportunities to make her voice heard, regardless of whether she fits the mold of what a pageant winner is supposed to look like. I just don’t know if this would be true in the case of a male competition. So much of what our culture deems honorable in men comes from a man’s money and the ability to live lavishly. How would most young men under the age of 26 compete, unless they inherited wealth?
Thoughts?
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I don’t know, Byron… this is quite a depressing supposition. People only have power if we give them the assumption of power.
In my little corner, the sexiest man alive isn’t Donald Trump (ew) or a movie star or some rich dude driving a ridiculously tiny but expensive bright yellow sportscar. The sexiest man alive to me is a high school English teacher who is smart, articulate, caring, and an excellent parent. Granted, yes, he is pretty damn hawt, as the kids say these days (do they still?), physically (so I’m not completely devoid of shallowness), I think money was the last thing on my mind when I thought I would give him 10 on a scale of 1-10, 10 being Mr. Perfect.
I think MEN think that men have to be rich to feel esteemed in society. And yes, there are a group of women who think that THEIR men have to be rich for THEM to feel important… but, maybe I’m wrong, most women don’t rate men by their wallet size. It could be a factor… i.e. if he’s homeless BUT super intelligent, romantic, good looking, etc., etc…. would most women consider dating him? Perhaps not. But if he had at least an apartment and a part time job? Probably.
By giving them a “mainstream” status, as though that is the cultural norm, I think we would be giving them too much “power”.
In a world of academia, some of those supposed rich folks aren’t even on the radar of importance or conversation. Maybe it’s time WE stopped buying into this myth?
It really is depressing, MN. I felt depressed as I wrote that.
But I think of Joe Biden when I thought about pull, and I remember how he had less than $200k in the bank while pondering a run for prez. I knew that was the death knell the minute I heard it.
Yes, Nahmja is hot, so he’s definitely an exception! He’s got great values too.
But even then, I wonder if a poorer man can exert the same kind of leadership as a poorer woman or a fabulously rich man. I’m not talking about one to one; I think one to once can take place anywhere and anyhow. But how about one man leading a large group? Does a man need money for that?
It’s also not just women; it’s guys. Can poor guys lead rich guys on a massive scale?
Overall, I think I agree with you about challenging those values. I guess I just don’t know how that takes place…
“”.. So much of what our culture deems honorable in men comes from a man’s money and the ability to live lavishly. How would most young men under the age of 26 compete, unless they inherited wealth?..”"
Personally I think that wealth is just one small factor when it comes to male attractiveness. No amount of money can buy a kind heart. I mean, you can always make money, but you cant always turn someone into a honourable and kind person. A close friend once told me “Money is always all around you, but true love is hard to find” and the longer i live, the more i find that his words were true. If anyone, man or women, can provide a postive experience for others, then no matter how destitute or poor they are, they’ll always have people around them, they’ll always be attractive to others because they just “got it”. That quality about them that you just cant buy, or take.
The only thing that money can provide is access to opportunities, and food/physical safety security. Even then, its up to the individual to turn his cards into a winning hand. You cant change the hand you were dealt with (eg poor/abusive parents, ffed up neighbourhood, crap childhood education) but you can control how you play it. Whats inside is the most important, not external, money might attract some people, but they wont stay around for long if you have a cold heart!
For male contestants, maybe it might be positive to focus on their personalities, skills and attributes, their potential rather than what they have at the moment/their current net worth. I mean its quite sleazy to judge people on how much money they have, i can just imagine….
“Hi my names John”
“Hi, I’m Sarah, so just before we start to talk, how much money you got now?”
“I dont have alot of money…(voice trailing off…)”
“Then just FUUUCCKKK OOFFF!! *points to the door* (turns back to other women) FUCK I JUST HATE FUCCKKEENN POOR PEOPLE!!!
I mean, who really wants to be like that?
I think the question is more about mass appeal. Could a poor man become appealing to the masses?
I know that’s a mainstream question, but how many women would go crazy over, say, Brad Pitt if he were broke, living on welfare, and unable to land an acting gig? How many would be interested in him if he were working the night shift at McDonalds? It’s not my values, of course, but I wonder how many people to cross over to think differently since it seems so universal in everything we do.
Another question–is masculinity tied to resources by mainstream standards?
Looks gay to me.
I’d have to agree with Siegfried: having a male pageant is gay.
Not that there is anything wrong with being gay or a gay Asian.
But if we’re trying to promote a healthy image of the Asian Am male as sexy, intelligent, charismatic and HETEROSEXUAL, then a male beauty pageant isn’t the way to go.
The thing with a female beauty pageant is that it focuses on BEAUTY in all its forms: physical beauty, elegance, eloquence and grace. Even though women are so much more than this, we as a society judge women on this singular dimension, beauty.
Males are judged attractive and worthy by multiple dimensions: sexual appeal and looks, power and influence, ambition and passion, leadership and charisma, skill and talent, humor and emotional expression, intelligence and of course, wealth and command of resources.
This is why men who are poor can attract women: they have other aspects that they can play up. You may not be rich, but having ambitions goes a long way if you’re young. I’ve known guys who lived at home and were unemployed, and yet they were still dating lots of women. Dorky nerds hook up and get married. Short guys get dates and get married. People can find relationships DESPITE their shortcomings. You just got to play up your strengths.
A beauty pageant cannot encapsulate the entire spectrum of what it means to be a male OR female, because it focuses on a small cluster of traits.
A guy is far more attractive when he is doing, not showing (as in a beauty pageant). Everybody can name an attractive male athlete, actor or singer. Very few people can name an atractive male who does solely modeling.
“I’d have to agree with Siegfried: having a male pageant is gay.
Not that there is anything wrong with being gay or a gay Asian.
But if we’re trying to promote a healthy image of the Asian Am male as sexy, intelligent, charismatic and HETEROSEXUAL, then a male beauty pageant isn’t the way to go.”
Wow. That’s just…wow.
As a Hyphen editor, I’m proud that we put on Mr. Hyphen ever year. First, it inverts the notion that pageants are strictly for women and that they should be based on superficial criteria, i.e. looks, the ability to smile and wave at the same time. It’s turning what could be a gendered, sexist practice into something positive.
The contestants involved are all Asian American community activist men who are competing to win money for their non-profit organization. Some of them are gay (though, just entering the pageant didn’t spontaneously make them gay…which is a hard thing to avoid considering the overwhelming gayness of pageantry), some are straight. Some are South Asian, East Asian, hapa, tall, short, whatever. They’re scores are based on their commitment to the community and their ability to have fun and charm a crowd full of cheering Asian Americans.
Maybe I don’t know the popular definition of what a manly Asian American man is. But fun, charming, and dedicated to Asian American causes — regardless of their sexuality — ranks up for their for me.
Perhaps the issue isn’t what’s good or bad about pageants; the issue is how we’ve been socialized in our thinking about what’s masculine and what’s feminine and how we’ve learned to think it’s bad when the line between the two gets blurred.
I think James is saying what some of us guys are feeling deep down inside. Even if I, as a guy, were up there and having lots of people cheer, there would be a part of me that just wouldn’t sit right with me unless I were doing something that:
a) was performance related
b) had to do with some kind of action, achievement, or ambition. And these would probably have to be related to serious money (more than $1,000) if it were a debating Shark Tank-like competition.
I think it’s just different, the same way a woman can wear a suit, but a guy can’t wear a dress.
The tyranny of being a guy…
“The tyranny of being a guy”
……er, i think its more like the “privilege” of being a guy, lol in the mainstream patriarchy guys seem to be judged by society largely based on their merits, while women are mostly seen as objectified eye candy, assessed on their looks alone, lol! (well not really lol, but hey, got to stay happy and optimistic, otherwise guys will call me an angry feminst or something haha, LOL!)
As a Hyphen editor, I’m proud that we put on Mr. Hyphen ever year. First, it inverts the notion that pageants are strictly for women and that they should be based on superficial criteria, i.e. looks, the ability to smile and wave at the same time. It’s turning what could be a gendered, sexist practice into something positive. The contestants involved are all Asian American community activist men who are competing to win money for their non-profit organization.
That’s great, Sylvie. You did a good thing for the Asian American community as a whole. No arguments about that.
I don’t doubt intentions. Subverting the traditional roles of men and women, expanding the boundaries of what it means to be masculine and feminine. Having fun and raising money for worthwhile causes. All good.
But for the straight Asian American male image, a pageant does reinforce the perception that if an Asian male is allowed to be sexualized, that he can only be sexualized in a traditionally feminine context (not that there is anything wrong with being feminine). Asian American are rarely promoted in a masculine sexual context.
It’s not the intention but the context (a pageant) in which Asian American men are presented that bugs me.
But if everyone involved is having fun raising money for worthwhile causes, then who cares?
jaehwan, i can’t help thinking that you can’t possibly know anything about the mr. hyphen contest if you’re using it as an example of how men’s pageants are about wealth.
(also, can you please name a SINGLE male pageant out there that is about wealth? you only named mr. hyphen and some unnamed bodybuilding contests, which are generally not about wealthy contestants.)
mr. hyphen is VERY SPECIFICALLY about turning around both the emasculation of the asian american man, and the pressure on men to be tall and handsome and rich. mr. hyphen contestants are all from working class and middle class families, and are teachers, activists, and professionals who work in the community with nonprofit organizations.
the application asks about their community accomplishments, their activism, and the nonprofit they are representing. the contest “heats” include a talent portion, a Q&A (again, about their ideas of community, As Am masculinity, and about their nonprofits), a fashion show in which they model clothes designed by As Am community designers, etc.
the contest winner then gets a blog column at hyphen’s website for a year, to talk about whatever he wants to talk about. he also gets a column in the print magazine after his win. he also gets to represent hyphen at university visits and community events in his area.
i’m really having a problem seeing what there is to complain about here. can you elucidate?
Hi Claire,
Thanks for your comment!
I don’t think that Mr. Hyphen is about wealth. The point I was trying to make is this: isn’t male attractiveness more often than not about wealth? If Brad Pitt were broke and unemployed, would he be considered attractive? I know that your pageant doesn’t judge men on wealth, but do the individuals in your audience judge on wealth?
I don’t have any issues with Mr. Hyphen–you guys and gals are raising money for causes, which is admirable. I think I’m mostly in agreement with Alpha Asian–I wonder if it actually succeeds in challenging what people really find attractive, i.e. does it challenges wealth, and/or does it challenge Whiteness as a masculine ideal in the minds of some Asian people?
I’m a finalist in the Mr. Hyphen competition. Now considering there is a demand for this by women, this is far from gay. So while I break down stereotypes on stage simultaneously raising good money for my Cambodian youth, you can keep blogging on a site that nobody but Asian-Americans will see. Cause blogging is definitely how we change the world…
uh … well i’ve already laid out what happens in the event. and the event is wildly popular among our mostly As Am folks. so i guess the answer to your question is a very simple and straightforward “yes.”
” So while I break down stereotypes on stage simultaneously raising good money for my Cambodian youth, you can keep blogging on a site that nobody but Asian-Americans will see. Cause blogging is definitely how we change the world…”
Leng,
I’m not sure why you’re attacking bloggers as a collective group. We could argue over the collective influence on the world of bloggers versus male pageant contestants, and I’d probably win that battle, but that wouldn’t be helpful to either of us.
Let me repeat this: I am NOT against what you’re doing. I think it’s great that you’re raising money for causes. More power to you, Leng, and the other contestants. In fact, as the only finalist/commenter on this site, I thank you for your contribution, and I hope you win. You clearly believe in what you’re doing, and I applaud you for standing up for your beliefs.
My reason for commenting on the pageant was a question over its practicality in overcoming stereotypes and un-emasculating Asian American men. As James stated above, the male pageant places you within a feminized context. And maybe that is the way to go–maybe traditional gender roles are bad. But for me, on an aesthetic level, I don’t see how it challenges the status quo.
If you check out the rest of the blogosphere, you will see how emasculation has affected Asian men. You will see how the disparity has affected Asian men (check out the excellent–in my opinion, of course–podcast here). The question is how do we fix it. Rather than opposing the mainstream, how do we bring Asian men into the mainstream? How do we get more Asian women to date Asian men? (Sorry for being so blunt, but often that’s really what we’re arguing about from the male perspective.)
Claire,
“uh … well i’ve already laid out what happens in the event. and the event is wildly popular among our mostly As Am folks. so i guess the answer to your question is a very simple and straightforward “yes.””
That’s good to hear. The more people who attend, the more money you can raise and the more change you guys can make.
I think I’d pose the same question: Rather than opposing the mainstream, how do we bring Asian men into the mainstream? Is this pageant doing it? Are more Asian American men and women dating because of this pageant? (again, sorry for being so blunt.) Maybe someday I should attend your pageant just to see the dynamics.
By the way, fyi, I had this same argument from the other side with our Miss Asian Oregon pageant:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/10/pageant-podcast/
I just see the issues differently between men and women.
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