I recorded my own personal podcast last night. You can download it here, or hear it here:
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The podcast is 20:46 long, 19.0 mB of me, me, me, and me talking mostly about the last week’s rally planning and the Medicine Dilemma (I made up this term because I don’t know what it’s really called)–if your wife were sick and a rich man down the street had medicine in his house, would you be justified in breaking into his house and stealing it? Is it okay to promote an event based on a narrative that you know is not true? (As for the real-life event, this talk doesn’t apply to most people at the rally–only I and a few other leaders knew that the hate crime didn’t occur, and one leader was undecided on what to think until just a few hours before the rally.) This talk mostly revolves around a statement that I’ve heard quite a few times: “Who cares if a hate crime occurred? We got people together.”
It’s the same old question about whether the ends justifies the means. I’ve had lots of feedback from people on bigWOWO and people in Portland, and I think I understand the issues better than I understood them last week.
I used a new mic that I’m borrowing from Curtis. GarageBand ’08 let me down, so I converted it with another program, thereby creating a very large file. Oh well.
I also stated that we’re empowered because we live in America. I realize that not all of us do. I’m assuming though that most of us live in industrialized countries.
0-1:35: Announcements and small talk. Be sure to check out my Sam Yoon post. Support Sam Yoon. Even $5 helps.
1:50-16:05: Featured talk on the Empowered Mentality and the Medicine Dilemma.
16:20-end: Bonus theory on sports education and the Empowered Mentality.
As always, feel free to agree or disagree below.
Related posts:
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“”..if your wife were sick and a rich man down the street had medicine in his house, would you be justified in breaking into his house and stealing it?…”"
A more fair analogy would be what if your friends, your family, your entire community was sick and a rich man down the street was the one producing the disease.
The sickness would kill everyone except him and his family, so he wont share the cure, because it would be more profitable if all you guys died off. But you cant break into his house directly because he has a private police force, a gaol, a court, and a political system that controls the situation in his favour.
What would you do? What would you do to get everyone together to destroy his family and BURN DOWN HIS FUCKING HOUSE?!!
It aint about morals, its about power……….
If race was a factor in this case, it is overwhelmed by the bad acts of the purported victim.
I do not like the argument of “who care?” or that we have so few opportunities to mobilize.
If we need an incident to rally behind, this is a poor event to select.
If we rally behind something that is not truly a hate crime and it is exposed as such, it will destroy the credibility of all involved in the future.
I think the analogy is a bad one because you can formulate the paradox in any way such as: Your sick wife = your reputation. Stealing the medicine = perpetuating a lie. Telling the truth = stealing the medicine. If you steal the medicine then you are telling the truth and saving your wife, but then the rich man has no medicine (lie exposed) and must get more (tell more lies?). If you don’t steal the medicine, then you are letting the lie continue and you kill your reputation (wife).
I do not view the cause or the activism or the purported hate crime as the wife. I view my virtues as the wife.
It aint about morals, its about power……….
If it’s simply about power, then there can be no moral outrage at the power being used to destroy you.
One of the best podcasts ever, Jaehwan and I agree with almost everything you said. I am surprised at the shortsightness of some people. Wasting personal values for the sake of short term gains is a sure way to sabotage your movement in the long run. Integrity isn’t something that can be tossed away lightly. Every time you lose it, it becomes harder to rebuild, until eventually nobody trusts you no matter how hard you try.
The truth is a stubborn animal; it has a tendency to find its way out. The people at the rally may have a short period of feeling good about themselves, but those who know the truth will only see this as an exercise of dishonesty. Far from building bridges, this action will only serve to widen the gap between communities.
I think another analogy here is the boy who cries wolf. People of color already face the problem of being accused of playing the “race card” every time they bring up their grievances. Shit like this will make it worse. If you want people to take you seriously, if you want more to believe in your movment, then you have to establish your values early on and build a strong foundation for the future. Sometimes the difference between righteous anger and self-victimhood can be reduced to something as simple as the amount of honesty you have with yourself.
Oh, interesting theory about sports, and this is where I disagree with you. Even though I was greatly involved with sports and physical activities during childhood, I think my values were more due to good parenting. One merely need to take a glance at professional sports, and see the amount cheating, dishonesty, denial, and other bad behavior that goes on with a lot of the athletes. Every Olypmics have been plagued with scandal. Being an athelete does not protect you from have the urge to win so badly that breaking the rules seem tempting, even neccessary. Hell, one can argue that it makes the urge to win even worse. Even though in sports, the end never justifies the means because otherwise, what’s the point of having rules?
….well well well, just look at all the idealists around here…..
King,
“If it’s simply about power, then there can be no moral outrage at the power being used to destroy you”
I’m not morally outraged when racist incidents occur, rather i take it as someone trying to stand over me. It isnt about morals, its about them trying to stand over someone they think is weaker. Its about power, and how some people try to stand over us(me or my friends/family) to show they are dominant, in overt and covert ways.
So you have to demonstrate that you arent that person, youre not the one thats going to get stood over, and if they keep trying theres going to be consequences. Morals? no, its about power.
Next time you get jumped on the street for being a chink, get refused a job because the manager doesnt like gooks, are refused housing because strata management doesnt want more asians in the building, or get rejected in a club because the chick doesnt date short dick asian guys, or some stranger cuts you off on the highway then says its your fault coz asians cant drive/open their eyes properly, or your mother/sister/girlfriend gets sexually harrased by white guys because all asian girls luv u long time, etc. You know what you should do? you should sit down and talk about morals with that person. I’m quite sure that the person will see the error of their ways and will promise not to be racist anymore. You just have to explain your morals! *rolls eyes*
I’ve thought about this issue further. And I think that a couple of things need to be kept in mind: Who provoked the confrontation in the first place and the context of this confrontation (i.e. 4 guys against one).
As I understand it, the incident was provoked by the 4 White guys who started harassing Bao. It then escalated with both sides throwing insults at each other, and the White guys spouting racial epithets. And then various threats were issued by both sides. Though Bao responded to them, it was the White guys who were the aggressors.
Secondly, the context was 4 guys vs. 1 (Bao). In this situtation, I think it’s somewhat understandable that Bao reacted the way he did. He was outnumbered. Backing down would only embolden these punks.
And let’s be honest, how many other guys here would have done nothing in the same situation? Turning the other cheek is an easy thing to preach, but when you are actually faced with a confrontation, that usually goes out the window.
If the question is whether this is a hate crime, then it’s probably not–at least according to the legal definition.
However, the bigger picture is that the incident was provoked by those 4 White guys who were looking for trouble.
And, apparently, they found it.
It might seem i was being sarcastic in my last post, King, so i guess i can better explain my position by simply describing my day today.
Today in my lecture on Texts and Traditions, the topic was holocaust literature ~ The Diary of Anne Frank about how the Nazis gradually eroded the social rights of German Jews until they were so vilified and dehumanised that by the time they were being sent to the death camps it seemed normal.
The Lecturer said “can anyone name a stereotype today that vilifies a entire group of people?” no one answered. “well one is that Muslims hate Jews” the lecture hall was quiet. Then she said “can anyone name one more? ” again no answer. “Another one is that Asians are bad drivers” , maybe 60% of the 120 people in the lecture hall starts laughing.
The weird thing is that the laughs were all comming from one side of the lecture hall, i look over and ALL THE PEOPLE LAUGHING WERE WHITE. Then i noticed it was the “white side” of the lecture hall(which i had never noticed till then) where almost all the people who sat on that side were white. There were one or two non white faces there, looking like they wished they werent sitting around the laughing people. You know how they were laughing? they were laughing like “HAHAHA LOL, ASIAN DRIVERS, ITS TRUE LOL THEY CANT DRIVE!! HAHA!! ITS SO FUNNY LOL!!”
I was sitting there, red faced and embarrassed, in my head my voice was screaming “WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU CUNTS LAUGHING ABOUT?!” but i couldnt say anything without looking like i could’t “take a joke” “laugh at a stupid stereotype”. I suppressed my voice and stayed silent. Not one Asian person in the lecture hall said anything, but when i looked around EVERY ASIAN FACE LOOKED UNCOMFORTABLE. You know why no asians said anything? because there are too few of us, and they didnt want to be the “loud asian guy/girl” who was “oversensitive” and “cant take a joke”. We have no power.
Then after Uni I went to my friends house for dinner. Her brother was there. He was bruised. Why? well he was walking with his girlfriend along the Harbour, outside the Opera House when who should they run into but three white males who called them “Stupid Chinks” and told them to “Get out of our Country” and then PHYSICALLY ATTACKED HIS GIRLFRIEND. So what did he do? he pulled his girlfriend behind him and fought back. He knocked one man to the ground before the other two jumped on him and beat him to the ground. Security started running out (from the opera house) and the three guys ran off. All this in front of his crying girlfriend. I should also mention that this guy is only 5’7, while the three attackers were all at described at least 5’9, taller and heavier. 10 minutes later the police arrive. The police didnt take a statement, didnt take the empty food packets the three men were eating from, didnt take anything at all. According to my friends brother, the police “didnt care, it was just another day for them” Didnt matter her brother and girlfriend were born and raised here, they were Asian, they had that yellow star by the colour of their skin so they were bashed. My friends brother was angry. Angry at the three guys who assaulted his girlfriend then bashed him, angry at the police for not doing anything, angry at the situation and the fact he didnt have power.
So this was my day today, King. Now you want to talk about morals. You tell me, is this issue about morals or power? I’m telling you King, and any other person out there, you guys see what is needed is morals, but i see whats needed is power.
Maybe we should rally behind Uni’s brother. Given Anna123′s second hand take on the story, three guys looking to harass a couple for being Asian, that incident sounds more like a hate crime than Bao’s incident.
Anna123, I know it is hard, I have been in your shoes, but we all need to learn to speak up in educational enviorments, that is what we are there for, to bring our opinions to the table. Sometimes waiting a day or two might help. You might want to take a moment and talk to your professor and say that “Asian are bad driver” are a hurtful sterotype. Your professor needs to correct that incident. I see alot of bad drivers on the road, and you know who they are? Latte sipping, cellphone yaking, SUV drivers, not paying attention and almost running over people int he bicycle lane. Other are really too old or really too young to be driving with that many people and distractions in the car. Maybe we need to do a DMV survey to see how many people per race and per capita get into auto accidents. Or maybe we should look at who gets pulled over for a DUII. I clerked for a judge for a year and I never saw an Asian person get popped for a DUII, but I sure saw a lot of the other race. My office is also a location where they do DUII diversion and victim inpact panel the third Wednesday of every month and guess what? I never saw a single Asian person in that line in the three years I have been at this location.
Larry, I disagree with you a little. I don’t think the question is who provoked the incident, but when did it become a crime? Just because someone antagonizes you, does not give reason to escalate the situation. So what if four random a-holes make a bunch of comments, whether it is sh*t talking your tricked out Honda, making derrogatory statements about your sexuality or your race?
So what if four guys trash talk about your car? What if the four were Black or Asian? Trash talking about a car doesn’t make it a racial incident. Trash talking about cars happens all the time.
I really don’t like using analogies because they can be missued and I do not want to comment further of the purported facts, so I’ll leave it at that.
American girl,
i think i should explain a little bit. “Uni” is short for University, its not the name of my friend. The lecturerer was just pointing out stereotypes when she said “Asians are Bad drivers”, and using them as examples on how they are wrong and vilify groups of people (like the nazis did to the german jews). The lecturerer wasnt being racist. The laughing people were.
And yes, i hate myself for being weak and not telling 50-60 people in the lecture hall to shut up. But to be honest, they all would have just dismissed my words, labelled me “oversensitive” or “loud/annoying asian” who cant “take a joke” and then keep on doing what they were doing anyway. And I’d have to see the same people every week at the same lecture for the rest of the semestor. And theyd remember what i’d said to them.
Out of the 120 students in that lecture, only 10-12 are Asian, including myself (i’ve counted) the other 80-90% are middleclass whites. The social environment is extremely euro centric/caucasian centric. Whiteness is the norm, the standard. Ive been asked “Is so and so your sister?” or “are you guys sisters?” (by whites) when with others simply because we all happen to be Asian,~ so they think we must somehow be familiy related.
Ive also been asked “hey do you know *insert some random Asian person they once knew somewhere* cause she was vietnamese too” (even after i tell them my ancestors are Chinese)
Ive also been asked “why do Asians eat cats and dogs? eew that just cruel , its because Asians dont respect animals right? thats so wrong! “”etc, etc
And Ive also heard countless Asian “jokes” that majority of people in the class find funny, and think theres something wrong with ME when i point out its racist or not funny, “oh you cant take a joke” “oversensitive” or “Asians dont have a sense of humour do they? ”
And if youre ever introduced, its always as “the Asian chick i was telling you about” “Asian girl”"my Asian friend” etc where for whites its “this is Carol”or”this is Lucy”"the skater chick” or “the funny girl” etc
The social forces of assimilation into white society are very strong in the environment at my university. In history, our professor even said one of the “advantages” of slavery was that it “saved”people let them to live in “civilisation” (This same professor also stated matter-of-factly that Europeans colonised Asia/Africa because they wanted to save people and give them civilisation~they thought they were doing the right thing~and that europeans didnt profit at all, in fact empires COST MORE MONEY than they PRODUCED, and that some former colonies were better off under their former colonial rulers etc.
The combination of all these social factors is why i repressed the urge to speak up and “make a big deal ” Can you imagine what it feels like to be in such an environment? where even if people arent directly being racist, they still are? and when you get annoyed, they think YOURE THE PROBLEM? saying “Oh, Asians cant express emotions well, thats why shes angry” or “In Asian culture they have a different sense of humour, thats why she said the joke isnt funny”
Its totally ff’ed up. Its not about morals at all.
And about what happened to my friends brother, it wasnt just him telling me, it was also told by his girlfriend (who was still distraught and traumatised when she recounted it). His parents kept saying “why didnt you run away” “why didnt you shout for help”’you shouldnt have hit them ” basically blaming the both of them, while his sister and i more or less tried to show our support for him and his girlfriend. He gets 100% of my respect no matter what anyone says.
Either way, morality only gets you so far, power helps more.Everything that happened in my day today was a direct result of the disempowerment of the AZN community in this country. Other people want to talk morals? I want to talk power.
Okay, first off I have to admit that I only half paid attention to most of the podcast and not paid attention at all for the rest of the time as I was doing other things…multitasking they call it! Certainly a failed attempted at multitasking though it’s better to get 2 out of 3 things done 100% than it is to get 3 out of 3 things done at only 50%.
I will have to revisit Jaehwan’s podcast at some point. So anyways, given that I did not really listened to the podcast, I do not know the how moral, power, and ethical dilemmas are used in this context. But I have to say that I can appreciate anna123′s views on morals and power. Regarding the professor and his/her ‘bad drivers’ example…if the professor wanted to really make any real point or have a real teaching moment, the professor should have responsed to the laughter in the room and challenged it. But the professor did not, which is disappointing. So, yes, the Asian students in the class should have stood up and said “fuck you, if you think I am sensitive, then how does this feel?” and then proceed to punched one of the laughing assholes in the face. But seriously, I’ve been in that situation many times before and when I have spoken out, it’s like no one cares and they all have a different consceince. It really doesn’t help when the professor doesn’t do anything to help either. So I understand.
Regarding the hate, non hate crime incident. Can any legal expert give us the definition of a hate crime? After reading what Jaehwan has said about the incident and sorta paying attention to the podcast, I still don’t really understand the cirstances of the situation. Racial insults can be thrown back and forth. But as soon as some one acts on it to commit a crime such as kicking a car door or throwing bagels, doesn’t that make it a crime driven by hate that was displayed by the racially charged verbal insults? And I really don’t think whether the guy started it or not or whether he threw racial insults back in response or not negates the ‘hate’ crime. He did not get out of his car and throw bagels or punch the white boys’ car. And if it is accepted that he was not the one who initiated the racial bullshit, then it should make it even more apparent that there was a crime driven by racial hate committed by the white boys.
Regarding the bad driving stereotype, I have always wondered where that stereotype comes from. And I am willing to bet it has something to do with the ‘foreigner’ theory and other stereotypes about Asians that have allowed us to be dubbed bad drivers. Classic example of racism.
Anna123, you’re preaching to the choir. Those of us who are minorities all suffered from racism in our lives, and no, we did not forget. Besides, you’re missing the point. Nobody said Asian Americans shouldn’t stand up for themselves. Nobody said they shouldn’t hold rallies. What I’m talking about is how to effectively attain that power for such a tiny minority. It is exactly because Asian Americans are in such small numbers that we must take extra care with every rare opportunity that presents itself. A rally that’s based on the premise of a lie loses its meaning. It is no longer a fight for justice, but just crying for attention for attention’s sake. Remember, rallies are about sending a message, but how can you deliver a clear message when you’re mixing it with dishonesty?
Unlike most theoretical either-or dilemmas, I believe we usually have more than two choices in real life. What those people could’ve done was hold a rally about something else. Instead, they decided to perpetuate a lie, which seems more like an act of desperation. Instead of generating support in people like me, it just leaves a bad taste. When Jaehwan first broke the story, I was pissed and fired up, and when he retracted it, I was pretty disappointed but understood the necessity. He wants to continue to do good work for the community, and he knows that in order to maintain support from the readers, he’s got to stay honest and give us good reason to believe what he says. That is not just the morally right thing to do, but the effective path to real power.
Yes, it is about power, but it is also about morals. I remember in my high school, some of the worse bullies happened to be minorities. There were these three big guys, a Korean, India, and Black, who would go around giving everyone (especially the other minority kids) plenty of grief. They had power, but instead of using their size and their unity to help these minority kids stand up to the white bullies, they just became another pack of predators. I don’t know what became of them, but suppose they got into real positions of power (like law or politics) when they got older. Given their background, unless they changed their mentality I seriously doubt they would be of any great service to the minority communities.
Anna123, you give or take power everyday. If one walks around with a victim mentality, you re more likey to be vitimized.
So your friends brother, I agree, given the facts as you stated, it sounds like a hate crime. It sounds like a worthy hate crime to motivate the group, not Bao’s incident. We need to keep track of hate crimes and talk about when something should be reported. Our culture is often warry of police authority and it should not be the case. We need to explore why incidence of hate crimes are not being reported. Could it be that noenazi groups are being trained to antagonize up to the point before it becomes a crime, so as to avoid being the suspect in a hate crime but a victim of an assault?
I was just telling a friend the other day I too have been harassed. Maybe we need to get together and talk about how to handle situations in which we are harrassed for being Asian. About 10 years ago I was walking down the street in Salem with my date. Four white guys started following us and chanting, “f-ing a white guy, f-ing a white guy with glasses.” There was no one else around by me and my date and they had no idea what our relationship was as we were just two people walking to dinner at a restaurant. The guy I was with was kind of deaf and did not hear any of this. I on the other hand started to get scared, then I got angry. Why was I letting a bunch of uneducated brats make me scared on the street. I turned around to confront them (I was also feeling a little confident since I had been taking about nine months of Tae Kwan Do that followed my Wing Chun training and he had six months of Tae Kwan Do.) I said in a very stern voice, “Do you have something to say to us? Say it to my face.” I started walking toward them asking them if they had a problem. My date then started to follow me and the four punks ran away like a bunch of preegirls who were afraid of amphibians.
I have not walked around like a victim in years, I pack heat. I’m not saying we need pack heat and blow off anyones face who crosses you. What I am saying is you give your power away if you want to and posture, gesture, carriage sends messages to those around you whether you can be messed with or not.
I also understand it was not the professor who was being racist, but I think it is the professor or lecturers duty to correct the students if they are acting out of line. Perpetuating a sterotype, allowing people in the class to feel emboldened or empowered over a sterotype is tantamount to watching your students destroy a computer because “they don’t know any better.” Collges are supposed to be instututions of higer learning, not perpetuation of baseless thoughts. I still thing you have time to express your concerns to the professor. If you don’t want to be seen as the, “Asian who cannot take a joke” let the professor do it so you can remain annonymous.
In my last undergraduate class , there was an attractive, yet immature guy a number of girls had a crush on him in my little class. One of the girls was, to be polite, not very comely. Toward the end of the semester “Brenda” did what I thought was a brave yet follish thing, not realizing what consequences she might face and sent him a message over our class editing software saying she though he was cute an hoped they could spend more time together. When he discovere the person sending him coy love notes was Brenda he retaliated by spamming her personal disclosures to the rest of the class in order to embarass her and his little following of cute girls made fun of Brenda and harassed her almost to the point where she was too embarassed to return to class. The professor caught wind of how Brenda was treated and I think he did a great job in admonished those involved with harassing Brenda and opening a window for Brenda to return and finish the semester without shame.
If it is not too late Anna123, if your instructor is any good, he or she could bring the incident back up and correct any hard feelings or misconception.
My perception is Asian are good drivers. People laugh at others in order to feel good about themselves. That is pretty sad. I think State Farm, Farmers, SAFECO and court records will have data to prove otherwise.
Don’t let other people make you feel powerless. Perhaps we should talk about ways to enpower ourselves. But trashing our integrity, negative discourse and crapping on all white people is not the way to make this world a better place.
@ anna123
But the whole reason that we call them Hate CRIMES rather than hate episodes, is because we are making an obvious moral judgement. When we call them crimes, we are saying that they are both wrong and illegal. Morality has to be involved.
If we only frame this as a power issue, then the best that we can say is that the perpetrators of hate are simply doing what we ourselves would like to do, if we only had the power to do it. We may be envious of their power, but you cannot fault them for their actions.
mT, Leon,
Okay.Youve stated your position and i understand, although i disagree.
Americangirl,
“Victim mentality?” …..”give your power away if you want to?” …..”trashing on white people?”..~did you even read what i wrote? theres something about the way you replied, its kind of, wait here it is;
http://www.derailingfordummies.com/
“Packing heat?” you dont get it. I wont say any more.
King,
Laws dont equal whats right/morality. Think about who creates laws, why they created them. Historically its always been those with socio-economic power.
Anna123
You think I am trying to derail you? It is unfortunate that you feel that way. If your only response to my points are ad hominem, it just goes to show your points are ill formulated.
At the end of the day, all you have is your reputation. You want power, its right in front of you. Just grab it. Don’t let it grab you back.
My position remains the same. Bao’s incident is a weak one, because no hate crime exists. I’m saying, find a legitimate hate crime to make hay with. You want to hang your hat on a non-exisitent hate crime, you want to “burn down the house” over a sham?
While you are at it, why not set the record straight with your classmates? You care so much about how they percieve you? You are worried they will think you are an Asian that can’t take a joke? Right now they think you are a bad driver and a quite one at that.
Hey Anna,
Just a few things…and of course, feel free to disagree…
1. Morality: Morality defeats power. Martin Luther King was a great example. He put black people in front of dogs and fire hoses, powerless Black people who got beaten by powerful White people with institutional and physical power. He ordered them not to fight. Through their moral superiority combined with mass physical weakness, they destroyed Jim Crow.
Malcolm basically did the same thing. He preached that black people had the right to be violent, but never in his life did he ever encourage violence because he knew that to do so would be to concede the moral upper hand.
This is what Leon and King are saying. Morality is an unstoppable force when combined with the means of publicizing it. And deep down inside, we all know right from wrong.
Look at the leaders of this Portland rally. They can’t be open about what really happened with Bao. They have to worry about people finding out about the sham. If anyone finds out, it’ll be an embarrassment to everyone involved, even those who rallied but didn’t originally know about it.
Plus, think about this–what if it were really successful and launched thousands of other protests? Historians would have to reveal that it was based on a LIE. As King says in the other thread, once you begin intentionally dealing in lies, you destroy the dialog.
2.
Anna,
American Girl isn’t trying to be critical of you, she’s trying to help by offering life experience. I am in the same boat as she is–our beliefs about mindset are very similar. Both of us are a little bit older. When you get to our age, it becomes about specific accomplishments rather than general expression, and those who achieve at our age do so because we find ways to accomplish what we need to. It’s not just her or me either–check out 8 Asians Ernie or Alpha Asian. Hell, even Dialectic, the guy who founded the 44s, is telling the young ‘uns to chill (I disagree completely with D, by the way, but you see the general trend about moving from general expression to specific accomplishments).
One of the reasons I believe the community failed Bao is that people allowed him to whine publicly about a hate crime that never happened (mT, it has to be motivated by hate, i.e. let’s go beat a Chinese guy). People were calling him a hero, and leaders who knew about the misinformation gave him a platform to continue the narrative. How can we raise a strong generation if we encourage people to scream racism when their egos get hurt? As Leon said, “it’s no longer a fight for justice” if you or the organization that represents you is lying.
Racism exists, and we need to fix it, but we also need to do what we can to become better people–both as individuals and as a society.
Sigh.
what can i say American girl, you still dont get it, lol (shakes head)………
Not going to waste my time bothering to reply to your comments.
You take care now.
Jaehwan,
You know already how i feel about this incident. I’m going to respectfully disagree with people who take the idealistic position and leave it at that, because otherwise this discussion will continue in a pointless circle…
Its really about life experiences, and we are all unique. Theres obviously reasons why people are taking different sides over this, I’m not going to discount other peoples reasons further or try to explain a position that can only be arrived at by a life experience.
Jaehwan, okay, if the motivation was not hate based, then I would agree that there was no ‘hate’ crime. I guess I have to examine closer all the stated facts that have been made about the crime. But it appears this incident would be ambiguous at best if motivation is not hate based, and I would have to generally agree with what has been said by some about morals, integrity, justice, and all those nice terms.
However, from a legal perspective and even a moral one, my only question is this. Can hate (in this case racial hate)escalate and/or compound a crime that was not orignally motivated or intiated by hate? So let’s say you get into a altercation and get punched in the face once, would racial hate get you punched in the face twice and stabbed at least once even though that hate was not the root cause of the initiation of the altercation? It makes it a more complexing issue and not so much black and white anymore no?
There are multiple issues here:
-One is the issue of whether this incident is a hate crime and the proper “community” response. Many people here are arguing that this incident isn’t a hate crime and the response was misguided. Given the circumstances of the case, I won’t disagree with this.
-However, there is the broader issue of Anti-Asian racism and harassment, which this case seems also to be about. To me, some have lost sight of this larger issue in their narrow focus on whether or not this is a “hate crime.”
Laws dont equal whats right/morality. Think about who creates laws, why they created them. Historically its always been those with socio-economic power.
This point that Anna makes is a good one. Laws, morality, and what counts as “right” are not political absolutes. They are ultimately a reflection of who has power–and who does not.
Who has power will define what counts as lawful, moral, or right in the first place.
For example, how many people know that the Oregon contitution once had something called the Lash Law?
This was a law mandating that Black people in Oregon be subject to whippings twice a year until they agreed to leave the state. This was later replaced with a kinder, gentler version: forced labor instead of whippings.
http://www.historicoregoncity.org/HOC/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=75
These laws were all a form of White racial cleansing designed to drive Blacks out and make Oregon a “White homeland,” and they were a codified part of the Oregon constitution. Indeed, similar racist legislation was enforced against Asians with various forms of race taxes.
http://www.beyondtheoregontrail.org/timeline.php
Just because something is legal doesn’t make it moral.
This none more true than in America.
Today, White majority power is much more disguised–usually hidden behind a mask of diversity and symbolic minority frontmen, all the way up to the White House.
But it is predatory just the same.
@ American Girl. As I understand it, the 4 White guys were not only trash talking Bao but escalated it to include racial epithets. That probably is not a so-called hate crime, but that certainly is a “racial incident” (i.e. racist harassment).
Larry,
I agree there are other issues. But it would be like having a pornographer talk at an anti-pedophilia rally. One crime (if pornography is a crime) is much more serious than the other. If it were an anti-harassment rally, they probably wouldn’t get the same people showing up because people weren’t stirred up by the claim of harassment; they were stirred up by the claim of a hate crime. In either case, the organizers probably should have disclosed it as such.
mT:
I agree.
Without the targeting though, the burden of proof is on us. It’s gray from a moral standpoint, but from a legal standpoint, it’s black and white–no racial motivation = no hate crime.
I guess my point is that we need to set the standard somewhere. Kind of like this: racists have the right to hate me, and I expect that those feelings of hate would come out in the commission of a crime, but racists have no right to initiate a crime against me based on that hate.
mT:
Check your e-mail!