In this case, maybe he is just hiring the best. Which is fine; his job, after all, is just to be the best manager he can be.

It’s kind of like doctors. Even though I love wild and crazy activists, I’d be happier with a doctor who was dull. If Frank Chin were a doctor, I wouldn’t let him operate on me.

the guy is hiring more asians in the company, meaning more Asians are reaching financial security, thats a form of physical and security empowerment. But for mental empowerment, people would have to look elsewhere anyway, such as film/media/music/political/cultural rpresentaion, so his hiring actions wouldnt make a difference in those arenas regardless….

It’s hard to say about your friend, since I haven’t talked to him or met him. It could be that he sincerely hires Asian people because they are actually the most qualified. The fact that many of his hires are Asian would thus be coincidental and not represenative of his true values or politics–which appear to be basically Orientalist in nature.

But then again, I supposed he could be a “Secret Azn Man” who is trying to game the system by playing the obedient Oriental role.

“Do you think its possible for AZNS to push “oriental” type non threatening “Asianesss” like food festivals/diversity shows as an inroad /foundation for future more pro AZN consciousness building?”

Only if they are doing it as a conscious political strategy to “infiltrate” the system.

Even then, however, I still think this type of strategy is dangerous.

There is an old saying: “When you try to change the system from within, the system will end up changing you from within.”

These people may start off thinking (or rationalizing) that they can get a foothold in the system in order to change it from within, but once they get in, they may eventually become the very thing they are fighting against.

“For example, pro asian white people / “orientalists” are more favourable to Asians than anti asian white people. Both are racist, but sometimes it seems in an all white environment, that “pro oriental” white people are a lesser of two evils. If asians accept their status as “orientals” (or “Yellow dogs” as House of Whoreship would term them) It is selling out, but do you think that pragmatically its something that can be used to set a foundation?”

In general, I would say no. It would be a foundation built upon sand.

This does bring up the larger issue of what is the best poltical strategy for AZN empowerment.

Should one work within the system, play the game, in order to try to change this system from within?

Or should one work outside the system (as much as that’s possible), and develop your own independent institutions and power?

I prefer the latter.

I think it will be more personally rewarding–though not as “financially rewarding”–to take the second path.

In the latter case, you can do what you believe in instead of having to wear a mask and pretend to be something that you are not.

In contrast, when you try to work within the establishment, you always play by somebody else’s rules to win at somebody else’s game. But the House always wins, as they say in gambling.

And in the final analysis, the point is for Asian people to create our own set of rules.

That is true empowerment.

Just saw this post linked on another site (asiansdownunder) and was wondering what your thoughts are on some aspects of “Oriental”culture.

“”And you’re right that Orientals will try to push their version of Asianness. But they always present some non-threatening version of Asianness like those ethnic food festivals or “celebrate diversity” shows. Gag. “”

Do you think its possible for AZNS to push “oriental” type non threatening “Asianesss” like food festivals/diversity shows as an inroad /foundation for future more pro AZN consciousness building?

For example, pro asian white people / “orientalists” are more favourable to Asians than anti asian white people. Both are racist, but sometimes it seems in an all white environment, that “pro oriental” white people are a lesser of two evils. If asians accept their status as “orientals” (or “Yellow dogs” as House of Whoreship would term them) It is selling out, but do you think that pragmatically its something that can be used to set a foundation?

A true life example i know is an acquaintence of mine who currently works for a large financial company in Sydney, AUS. He is a typical “model minority” or even an “oriental”, doesnt care about Asian issues, politically apathetic, high achiever in university, often a token asian in his social groups (almost all of his friends are white), dates white women exclusively, because he’s “not attracted to Asian girls” etc.

When he first applied for a managerial position in this company, he became the FIRST manager in the whole Sydney CBD branch that was Asian. This is an international company mind you, and this was only just 9 years ago!. Since that time he became a dept manager, and now has hiring responsibilities for his whole dept. He has consistently hired employees of Asian descent,and informed me that he did so because they were the individuals best suited for the positions vacant.

His whole dept is now 70% Asian background, while other dept in the same company are 10-15% Asian employees. Recently all the dept and higher level managers had a meeting and the “issue” of his dept came up. Apparently some other managers questioned him about his dept, “why are so many Asians only in your dept” etc, not expressed in a overtly hostile way, but more in a “concerned” way. He replied to them the same way he explained to me, that “they were the best applicants that applied” and that he did not “discriminate based on background, i believe in multiculturalism” etc. The way he answered them meant they no longer question him about his hiring choices. He insists that he hires 80-90% asian staff and promotes Asian staff purely because “they are the hardest workers, most suitable” However the fact remains the same. No non-Asian worker has been promoted under his leadership, and his hiring record suggests he has a positive bias towards those of Asian descent. Of course he’s also hired non Asians to his dept, its just that the majority he has hired have been Asian.

He never EVER talks positively about race/asian community, in fact he often says things like “Asians are so traditional blah blah” or “they come here and need to learn to speak english properly” (when he was talking about a recently arrived Indian guy who he interviewed-and didnt get the job).

I’m confused about what to think of him, at times he seems like he’s “pro Azn” then he makes comments that suggest he’s an “Oriental”. He has majority white friends and girlfriend- makes comments about Asians being traditonal/backward , but then he promotes only Asians in his dept. He can speak Chinese/Cantonese fluently, but says he doesnt know anything or care about Asian culture-because its too “traditional and backward”!.

What do you think of this situation Larry? Do you think this “Oriental” is setting a foundation? or do you think that hes trying to produce more “Orientals” in the company?. Is it possible that some of the non Oriental Asians that his hired will gain much power and financial success within the company?, in other words, do you think this guys selling out is going to help others rising after him?

Coz Orientals can make the same argument of representing “Asianess” too right? It just depends on who’s more dominant”

I wasn’t making any distinction between Black and African American culture. Just trying to use what Du Bois called the “four fundamentals” of Black theater/community development and apply them to AZN culture: it should be about us, for us, by us, and near us.

And you’re right that Orientals will try to push their version of Asianness. But they always present some non-threatening version of Asianness like those ethnic food festivals or “celebrate diversity” shows. Gag.

AZN culture should be more “confrontational,” shall we say.

Are you talking about the difference between Black Culture and so called Afro American culture?( eg kwanza holiday~ “The Seven Principles of Blackness”)

Coz Orientals can make the same argument of representing “Asianess” too right? It just depends on who’s more dominant

“”..Yes. I think it’s vital to hook up, support, and work with other Asian people that “get it,” who possess some kind of consciousness as Asians.

That’s often easier said than done, as many Asians do not get it–or don’t want to. The internet is a great resource for this kind of “meeting of the minds,” as it connects you with people you might never meet in your everyday life.

At base, it’s all about building an autonomous Asian movement and community. It’s why we fight…”"

Agree with you 100%

The White mainstream definitely attempts define the very culture and identity of Asian people … for Asian people. It’s what they do to people of color generally. That’s the audacity and arrogance of Whiteness.

Another thing they do is to domesticate or co-opt any type of insurgent culture that arises from minorities. An example is Rap. A generation ago, Rap was powerfully defined by a Black nationalist sensibility, as embodied by groups like Public Enemy. This sensibility had an oppositional political vibe to it. Today, this kind of “conscious Rap” is not nearly as influential thanks to the commercialization of Rap music and culture in general.

In short, White America pimped it.

That’s why it is so important to develop an *autonomous* AZN culture and identity.

To paraphrase what W.E.B. Du Bois once said about Black culture: AZN culture is by us, for us, and about us.

“But for every 1 AZN person here, theres 3-4 “Orientals” and for every expression of AZN culture, theres 3-4 expression of “Oriental” culture, all supported by the powerful white mainstream. Even among the highly educated Asian Australians there still alot of self orientalism, self hate, outmarriage~(one of the strongest signs that youve made it as an Asian for both Men and Women is if youve married a white Anglo and been accepted into Anglo mainstream culture), devaluation of everything strong thats “Asian” ….and when combined with white power, white centric beauty/power /media etc, it really is a miracle that AZNs are even existing in Australia at all.”

To me, it’s important to study Orientals. Get inside their head. See what makes them tick. Understand why they think and behave the way they do.

It’s almost amusing to observe Orientals in action. They usually display a kind of weird self-consciousness or latent hostility to their own racial/ethnic identity–including other people of their background.

Put two Orientals together in a public setting with White people, and they will often warily avoid each other, even refusing to make eye contact. This is especially true when the two individuals are a man and woman.

It’s like the very presence of another Oriental in a public setting is an uncomfortable reminder of what these people are desperately trying to shed, as they lose themselves in a sea of Whiteness.

But that’s the psychology of Orientals.

“But I’m optimistic, as individuals, I just try to support AZN culture, businesses, and be AZN centric, watch AZN or Asian media, and hopefully it will make a small difference and in time these will all add up.”

Yes. I think it’s vital to hook up, support, and work with other Asian people that “get it,” who possess some kind of consciousness as Asians.

That’s often easier said than done, as many Asians do not get it–or don’t want to. The internet is a great resource for this kind of “meeting of the minds,” as it connects you with people you might never meet in your everyday life.

At base, it’s all about building an autonomous Asian movement and community. It’s why we fight.

“…I think that the AZN and Oriental American cultures are in conflict with each other. The latter is propped up by the White Mainstream with all its money and resources, while the former is an insurgent culture..”

Yes, its the same in Australia. The thing is , white mainstream is more powerful, and in order to weaken a true AZN culture from developing which might become a threat to the hegemony of the white mainstream, they support “oriental” culture as a proxy to disempower Yellow people, aka render us as their “House Asians”, their “Charlie Chans” and not become a social/economic threat to the existing white male power structure.

So in my eyes, supporting AZN culture is an act of insurgency, a way of saying “FUCK YOU” to white power structure and all the racism and disempowerment that Orientalism and white supremacy represents.

Because, when you think about it, true AZN culture is the same as true modern ASIAN culture (from Asia) in terms of what the position it relegates white people to. In true AZN culture white people are not the mainstream, they are the peripheral. AZNs are the centre, the middle. In true modern Asian culture (like what is developing in the Peoples Republic China), white people are also considered outside the norm~the peripheral, the out-group, the token westerners.

Thats why I think white mainstream hates modern AZN and Asian culture and tries to Orientalise it,~ otherwise they will be relegated to their secondary role, not first place any more. They might not overtly think this, or even be intentionally racist, but subconsciously, thats what the white mainstream thinks~ and thats why they Orientalise.

In Australia, AZN culture is still in its infancy, and the established “Oriental Australian” culture is extremely powerful and ensconced into the social and economic white power structure here.

But change is occuring, slowly, and both AZN and “Oriental Australian” culture are developing here. The demographics of Australian society are changing too, very different from even 5-10 years ago. In time AZN culture will develope more fully and become more stronger, but whether it will achieve dominance over the established “Oriental Australian” culture remains to be seen.

In Australia, we have our own Bobby Lee’s, Ken Jeongs etc, as well as a slowly growing number of our versions of Kaba Moderns, Sam Yoons etc.

In terms of AZN Australian culture theres CommunityChannel, MyChonny and RumbleProductions. In Politics theres Penny Wong, a few members of the Unity party, and an increasing number of Asians who are trying to run for local coucils/government, especially in the major city suburbs where the Asian Australian community is forming such as in Sydney~Cabramatta, Hurstville, Strathfield, Kogarah, Campsie, Burwood , and in Melbourne~ Boxhill, Footscray, Richmond. The other major cities Darwin,Perth, Brisbane and Adelaide have less Asian Australian populations to work with so they lag far behind in AZN culture~

But for every 1 AZN person here, theres 3-4 “Orientals” and for every expression of AZN culture, theres 3-4 expression of “Oriental” culture, all supported by the powerful white mainstream. Even among the highly educated Asian Australians there still alot of self orientalism, self hate, outmarriage~(one of the strongest signs that youve made it as an Asian for both Men and Women is if youve married a white Anglo and been accepted into Anglo mainstream culture), devaluation of everything strong thats “Asian” ….and when combined with white power, white centric beauty/power /media etc, it really is a miracle that AZNs are even existing in Australia at all.

So AZN culture does exist in Australia, at the momnet its very small, and fragmented, and in the face of the established Oriental culture, seemingly powerless, but i believe that in time things will get better. Australia is in “Asia”. Its the destiny of Australia to become more Asian demographically. Change is inevitable, and with that demographic change, AZN culture will also slowy grow (in tandem alongside “Oriental” culture). Like in the U.S/Canada, only time will tell if AZN culture will succeed in the face against Oriental culture and white supremacy here.

But I’m optimistic, as individuals, I just try to support AZN culture, businesses, and be AZN centric, watch AZN or Asian media, and hopefully it will make a small difference and in time these will all add up. It might not be always successful, but just trying and by supporting it in your own way its all you really can legally and socially do…(and still be economically/socially/financially and personally successful) lol

Hi Anna. I think that the AZN and Oriental American cultures are in conflict with each other. The latter is propped up by the White Mainstream with all its money and resources, while the former is an insurgent culture.

Orientals basically accept the authority of White institutions and power (which are supposedly universal and colorblind), and they want to assimilate into them.

The “AZN vision,” on the hand, is about building our own autonomous culture and institutions.

Ultimately, what’s at stake in this conflict is a battle for the soul of Asian America (or Asian Australia). Nothing less.

BTW, what kind of “AZN culture” exists in Australia?