Bruce
Jet
Jackie
(Bruce pic from here, Jet pic from here, Jackie pic from here)
In our last podcast with Ed and Eric, we touched on the difference between Bruce, Jackie, and Jet. Vu had brought up the difference between Jackie and Jet during the podcast, and we made numerous inquiries into the characters that the actors portrayed and their respective reputations. For me, if we look at the three guys at the highest points of their careers, there’s always been a clear difference between the three men physically:
1. In terms of form, Jet was the best traditional martial artist of the three.
2. Jackie by far was the most daring stunt person. His stunts are insane. He’ s insane.
3. Bruce could’ve definitely beaten the snot out of Jet nine times out of ten, and he probably would’ve beaten Jackie. (I say “probably” because a certain mix of acrobatics, lack of fear, and crazy can often produce lethal fighters. Everyone remember Sakuraba the “Gracie Hunter?” Some of those moves were sick. Seriously, fighting while doing cartwheels? Jackie’s advantage is that he was and is a crazy mofo.)
In any case, all three of these guys were great martial artists with skills far above the norm, even by martial artist standards. However, as everyone pointed out during the podcast and in the comments afterwards, there still remains a big difference in the way people view these three men, regardless of their fighting abilities. We all agree that Jackie is perhaps the greatest film stuntman ever, but somehow his reputation has devolved into a caricature because of both the roles he plays and the comments he makes offscreen. Which leaves the other two–Bruce and Jet. What is the difference between the two, and why does this difference exist?
While I agree that Jet avoids playing the caricatures, I personally have always had trouble getting into his films. Jet is a great fighter, and yet I’ve always felt little compelling reason to stay in front of the screen. During a Jet film, I can go get a beer, change a diaper, use the loo, or check my e-mail without feeling any need to hit pause or stop on the DVD player. When I get back, I watch the movie wherever it ended up, and I feel like I’ve missed nothing. With Bruce, on the other hand, there’s an intensity that I never want to miss. It’s as if Bruce expands beyond the screen. Even when I’m watching Enter the Dragon for the fiftieth time, I can’t turn away from it. Every move, every gesture, every facial expression is special and unique. Every line, every inflection, teaches something not only about his philosophy, but of his real character. I learn something new every single time I watch that film.
Since this is a blog and not an exploratory essay, I’ll just come out and say what I think the Bruce mystique is–Bruce’s priorities transcended the screen. They went far beyond anything movies could do. True, Jet was a martial artist before an actor too. However, Bruce spent most of his time developing a philosophy. He spent his time thinking about fighting and how to improve it. He thought about society, thought about culture, thought about racism. He focused hard on what his film career was supposed to do. For Bruce, film was a vehicle, not an end.
When you read about Bruce’s encounters with racism and threats, it was amazing what he was able to overcome. First when he was playing Kato, the producers wanted him to lose to Robin from the Batman series. He wouldn’t have this, so they agreed to go to a draw. Then the producers of Kung Fu stole his idea and put the White David Carradine in his place. When he finally got to make Enter the Dragon, the racists made a character named “Braithwaite” because they knew he’d have trouble pronouncing it. (Sorry for the lack of references. I’ve read sooo many books about Bruce, and don’t remember where I read this. I’m sure some of you could document this.) Meanwhile, Bruce continued to make martial arts the center of his life. He would challenge whomever, wherever. Even today, he gets respect from the best of the best. In the first Elite XC, Frank Shamrock called Bruce the original MMA fighter. That’s the level of respect he commands. You can see that fury in his movies. He carries it into the character. Audiences know his power because they feel it.
With Jet, we have a guy who is a proficient martial artist, possibly one of the best ever. But that’s about it. I’ll never forget Lethal Weapon 4, where he plays the Chinese bad guy who gets clowned with racial jokes by the White Mel Gibson, who was the main actor. I will never forget that movie as long as I live. Gibson pokes fun of Jet’s Chinese accent, talks down to him as if he were a coolie, and in the end, teaches him the lesson that White colonialists have spent centuries drilling into racial minorities–never oppose a White man, or the system will take you out. It was like watching Manifest Destiny…manifest. Here you have a racist White man abusing this talented Chinese martial artist, denigrating Chinese culture, making racist remarks, and in the end, this White man wins. It was a lesson caught on film that visually articulates what Asian Americans face–we can be really good at what we do, but we still have to fight a system that places Asian people at the bottom of the social heap.
Bruce Lee would NEVER have played that character. He was verbal with everything, and people feared his mind as much as his physical prowess. Mel and the racist writers and producers, despite their millions, would’ve been too scared to mess with Bruce. He had that effect on people. And if they were crazy enough to mess with Bruce, Bruce would’ve opened his mouth. Bruce was verbal and could unleash a furious argument. I saw this movie in Japan, and I was shocked at how shamelessly Mel Gibson unleashed the racist jokes and how Danny Glover and the rest of the cast just played along. Even the Asian members of the cast went along. Let’s just say my Japanese friends got an earful of my Asian American voice afterwards.
Jet, of course, went on to play the unromantic Romeo in Romeo Must Die, as well as several other forgettable roles that I won’t forget since I didn’t bother spending the money to see them. Last time we heard from him, he made some movie with himself, Jackie, and some white boy set in ancient China.
Now some of you may wonder what I think about Jet’s Chinese movies. I think they’re okay. They’re fine. I have no problem with them. But because I think multiculturally since I live in a multicultural environment, the multicultural questions and stories are the ones that interest me. With respect to his multicultural movies, to be fair, I don’t blame Jet. I think he’s reacting to racism the same way most people would react to racism. I can’t be angry at him for being normal.
But Bruce was really something else. He knew the score, and he played by his own rules. Brains, physicality, and spirit, ALL of which come out on the screen. ALL of which came out in his real life. ALL of which still live today in the many people–Asian, White, Black, and Other–whose lives he influenced. To answer Ed’s original question, THAT is what made Bruce a phenom.
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I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
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I wouldn’t say...
Im a 100% Jet Li Fan. Bruce Lee’s okay, …but i really love Jet Li, maybe its a generational thing or something, as i couldnt really relate to “Enter the Dragon” or “The Big Boss” the only movie i really liked him in was “Fists of Fury” especially the end when he commits suicide by fly kick….i mean that was so ….*roar*.
Jet Li on the other hand…even though he has played caricature type roles in hollywood movies he truly is a great actor.Once upon a time in China? wow i still love that movie,it taught me that people can be strong in the face of adversity, protect their community…Romeo must Die? goddam that was one of my most fav movies growing up, he was so boss,cool and strong, protecting his family, achieving justice for his brother….and lets not forget the classic “Shaolin Temple”!!! Then theres his recent chart topping movies such as “Hero” and “Huo Yuan Jia”/Fearless!!!
Jet Li is one of the main reasons i got into wushu and martial arts and growing up also provided a strong Asian-Chinese role model onscreen that i didnt really see reflected on “mainstream white” media. Asians-Chinese can be strong, can be heroes. Its sounds so simple but it really changes alot of perceptions, when you are growing up as a minority.
So in conclusion 李连杰, my baby, you are my hero!!!, 我爱你!!! 你加油!!! 加油!!!
P.S
Bruce only blew up after he made Chinese movies in Asia, signed to a Chinese company. Those were Chinese movies right there…so Jet Li should be judged on the same standard too!!
Maybe i just love Jet Li too much..lol Sorry Jaehwan!! Can tell from your writing you are a definite Bruce Lee fan!!!
This is a very interesting reflection. I am also a huge Jet fan and he is pretty much 100% of the reason why I also started training wushu.
I could see how Bruce’s attitude towards society, people, film, etc. struck a chord in people, especially people like yourself that have a similar “rebellious” streak. Maybe at the time of Enter the Dragon, it struck a rebel chord with alot of people at that time. I recall my AA studies professor at SFSU mentioning the film and how it transformed communities at the time.
Jet could be seen as a much more “normal”, perhaps, complacent representation of society today. After all, the guy was groomed by Chinese government through the Beijing Wushu Team, was allowed to cross over and make films in Hong Kong and the U.S. and probably keep a good chunk of his wages, haha. He was an athlete first, and then moved into films, and now is on a charity kick. A talented person that can do well in almost anything he puts his mind to, but doesn’t have the same ferocity/mind of a rebel like Bruce. Bruce rebelled against practically everything, right? Film industry, martial arts (Chinese, American, etc.), including himself (a huge perfectionist).
These are definitely interesting differences. Today, it is very difficult to find another “Bruce Lee” type for mainstream society. With the amazingly compettitive world of MMA, etc. you can’t rely on some phenom Asian martial artist with the same passion and charisma to rock the both the ring and the screen. Martial arts on screen to most people are practically a dime a dozen now with wires and the ever-popular HK fight choreography that can take complete non-martial artists and give audiences more of a show than they could ever expect (Charlie’s Angels, the Matrix, Transporter, etc.). The next “Bruce” would probably also have to be a rebel, and have the ability to grip people, probably not by martial arts, but by something.
Hey guys, ill make this short and to the point.
Jet Li is everything Chinese or Asian,
Bruce Lee is everything that could be.
Jackie Chan is what should be the NOW.
Jackie is the best of both worlds more so than either of the other two.
If you want to go another way:
Bruce = ABC, Aggressive / Defensive militant, young, quick learner.
Jet = China, progressive activist. disciplined, consumate ideal
Jackie = Hong Kong, b4 during after 97. Trying to bridge the gap.
if you managed to blend all three …. = Tony Jaa ??? next gen
Jet didnt like the exploitation, vs his moral code, but still manage to enlighten.
Bruce knew it was coming, put up a good fight, and walk away laughing.
Jackie survives yet another day, to hoping the kids learn to avoid it.
That’s an interesting take, Kobe. I could see how Jackie could be bridging the “gap”. He certainly focuses alot on the next generation of both talent and audiences. I’ve always wondered how young children view martial arts films, actors, etc. Do they even care, or is it the same to them as the next Transformers or Spiderman flick? Like, who is popular to them? What do they think is “cool’? Who do they identify with? Who knows, maybe a good chunk of them think Jason Statham is the best “martial artist”, haha.
I’m not sure about Tony Jaa. He grew up in the Thai film industry and his latest achievement in the official Ong Bak 2 supposedly had him retreat to his mentor Panna to help him finish what he started.
That said, Jaa has tremendous physical skills fit for the “martial artist” of the current times, but even his new form of hard-hitting action can get kinda old (personally) and some of his stunts can be easily upped by Youtube-ing parkour homemade parkour videos.
That, to me, is the big obstacle is finding the person/product that delivers something that the mainstream audience is convinced can’t be delivered elsewhere. Again, by importing HK choreographers and wiring/CG-ing stuff up, it becomes pretty difficult to find something that truly stands out.
This might be something that’s not just happening to martial arts film stars, but stars in general. The old Hollywood model was always based on the big director and the big star, and now, those products are becoming so diversified that I wonder if audiences just don’t know what to expect from their favorite actor/director. Because once that loyalty (based on reliable consistancy) dissolves among the audiences, stars lose their draw. The draw then becomes the movie, the trailer online, the buzz, the controversey, etc. and not the next Jet Li movie. Even me, an ardent Jet fan, I never bothered to make it out to watch “War”. My confidence in the Jet Li product was shaken after watching the God-awful “Crade to the Grave”, and now whenever I see a trailer for a film that reeks of the same stench such as “War” I’ll pass. Anyway, I’ll stop there since i’m going a bit off topic.
Ooops…looks like I walked into a hotbed of Jet fans! That’s totally cool.
It’s funny because when watching that fight scene with Ed Kahana and Eric Jacobus (check it here), I always thought that Ed looked mostly like Jackie with the rhythm and timing. But if you were inspired by Jet, Ed, then I can’t take that away. I do think that Jet is extremely proficient in his fighting skills.
With respect to my impressions of Jet, in Jet’s defense, the very first few films that I saw were his American ones. First Lethal Weapon 4, then Romeo Must Die, and then some other movie that I wasn’t able to sit through. Then I saw the Chinese one where he falls for the Japanese girl. By that time, he had been de-repped in my mind. Yes, it’s totally unfair, but those are the breaks. As they say in martial arts and life, timing is everything, as are first impressions. So sorry, Jet, if I’m seeing you wrong.
I do like the comparison that Kobe brings up. One argument that could be made is that Jet is the most traditional of the three in terms of his persona and mindset. He’s quiet and pensive. Bruce is the least traditional. He’s philosophical but loud (more ABC? Hmm…) Jackie is definitely a bridge–speaks his mind but still traditional.
I like Tony Jaa’s stunts, and he’s definitely a physically talented guy, but the movies have little appeal to me because, as Ed mentions, it can be seen on youtube by amateurs. So many MMA guys want to get into acting. In Randy’s last fight, he may have done better against Lesnar, but in his prefight interviews, it was clear that he didn’t want to fight anymore; he just wanted to go to Hollywood. So I agree with Ed. If any actor is going to have an impact, it’ll probably be because he can act, not because he can do stunts and fighting onscreen.
Unless, like Bruce, he has a philosophy. Hmmm…?
Not to go off topic, but Michael Jackson has just died of a heart attack.
http://www.canada.com/Entertainment/Michael+Jackson+dead+after+cardiac+arrest/1732619/story.html
I cant believe what I’m reading…
Dont judge Jet by his hollywood films, its like judging Bruce Lee soley on his performance in “Green Hornet”. Anyone who doubts Jet, please watch all his Chinese movies first,then judge him. Namely
Shaolin Temple
Fong Sai Yuk
Once upon a time in China
Hero
Fearless/Huo Yuan Jia
Jet Li also has a philosophy to life, just check out his views on his buddhist faith,
http://www.jetli.com/jet/index.php?l=en&s=spirit&ss=questions&p=x&date=010521
And he is a philanthropist, with “The One Charity” he set up to reduce poverty in Asia
http://www.onefoundation.cn/html/90/category-catid-90.html
And hes a ambassador for the Red Cross
http://china.org.cn/english/features/film/155991.htm
In short, Jet Li is a great humanitarian as well as actor!!
I think Bruce Lee was the only individual I truly respect when it comes to Asians in America. He was the icon of what’s it takes to not take white America’s racist crap.
Jackie Chan is just a buffoon.
I don’t want to pick a fight….but…. uRB4N is just ridiculous in his super irrational and counter productive militancy. From his clear hatred of Asian women to his statement “Bruce Lee was the only individual I truly respect when it comes to Asians in America” thereby saying all other high profile Asian Americans (or Asians in America) are some how Asian uncle toms.
I think they are all good but Bruce Lee is more then his moves, it was his presence and charisma. One could argue who had better moves and skill but Bruce Lee was just born with “it” (he also worked really hard).
Tony Jaa is good but needs some find some people who can make better movies for him.
Don’t forget Yanin Vismistananda
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1074346/chocolate_movie_trailer/
my parents left me with a lot of asian tv and movies over many summers,
jet li was a monk, I have met other members of the same temple.
Since then he has been married and converted to Tibetan Buddhism.
look into the catholic rev. Cutie.
MMA is probably the direct bastard child of something Bruce Lee did wrong.
This may included Chuck Norris and future Chucks in America. Jean Claude Van Damme or Jason Stathum
All the US Jet Li movies, especially the ones with black rapper stars, most likely gave him every reason not to be a US citizen. This is where he understood he was exploited. The lost revenue alone from the underground copies of movies.
Jackie Chan deserves all your respect just for the fact that there is no stunt person willing to take his place. Every film may be his last, Rush Hour series was a bit annoying; I was hoping to see them do stuff at a Popeye’s in NYC Chinatown. too funny.
Ong Bak was a mix of a lot of the MA films, look for some Operation Condor in there, there might not be anymore Original material.
Bruce all the way. He was one of a kind.
You do have to look at Jackie Chan’s start in Asia – he was already a huge pop cultural icon in Asia in the 70′s, a teen heartthrob. He didn’t really have a need to be “political” in the sense that we’d expect an Asian American or any other minority celebrity here in the States.
Lingyai – I agree about the counter-productive militancy. Makes it hard to take him seriously.
I am in the Bruce camp, but I respect the other artists and what they do. I think it’s just hard to compare any of them. It depends on what your personal tastes are, what moves you, what appeals to you.
Bruce was definitely an iconoclast, an innovator, and a huge force that left his mark on this world. I just don’t believe there will be another Bruce in the world of martial arts or in film because I don’t see how anyone else can improve the arts or bring anything new to it that Bruce already hasn’t thought of or developed by him. The MA world has now caught up to the concepts of what Bruce theorized and film makers have used MA weapons for action sequences. But using butterfly knives and escrima sticks isn’t new anymore in films. The genre has evolved to its highest end, I think. I don’t see how else MA films can evolve anymore than the western/cowboy movies can.
The only possible realm that could be improved upon is the spiritual nature of the arts, and that seemed to be something Bruce was cultivating for his ownself. The physical action itself was not an ends, it was a means to an end: spiritual realization. But I don’t know if anyone could come along and revolutionize the arts in that way since it’s so subjective and personal.
Spiritual realization? didnt Carradine try that?? did he really know how?
maybe Jet Li knows more on the spiritual side. there is a big loss here.
There is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion. It’s someone’s personal belief and I personally believe Bruce was the only one that white America afraid of picking on Asians. He combined a sharp mind as well as an ability to physically fight back.
Also, I love your criticisms of my “counter-productive militancy.” There is a place for everything and had the opposite “docile” side have any real grasp of social understanding, they would be able to put it to use.
Here’s a real world example: Malcolm X, who was viewed counter-productive militant, said that the civil rights movement would never have succeeded if MLK Jr. and himself didn’t exist at the same time.
I’ll let you chew on that. See if you can figure out why he said that.
Also, it’s not that I hate AF but rather I dislike dismissive and apologist attitude. I mean, scroll back. I don’t think anyone has addressed my points even though more than enough have agreed with my points. It’s just another one of those classic examples of sweeping it under the rug which is why so many problems haven’t been resolved in the first place just because you dislike drinking bitter medicine. You’d much rather drink poisoned honey.
The only one that offered some type of response was from Sylvie who resorted to “I don’t want to be blamed because I have a vagina” or some other type of martyr-laden language.
Malcolm X, who was viewed counter-productive militant, said that the civil rights movement would never have succeeded if MLK Jr. and himself didn’t exist at the same time.
There is an excellent book written by Black liberation theologian James H Cone Martin & Malcolm & America: A Dream or a Nightmare? based upon that exact thesis. MLK and Malcolm X were complementary yin and yang elements of the Civil Rights Movement. MLK represented peaceful integration. Malcolm X represented Black nationalism and empowerment. Interestingly enough, towards the end of their lives MLK’s views became more like Malcolm X. In turn, Malcolm X himself became more like MLK.
This is the universal minority experience in America. The constant tension between integration/assimilation versus ethnic pride and empowerment is an ongoing dialectical process. The synthesis is the ever evolving definition of what “American” means.
Note: I wrote the following in a different forum several months ago:
I’d like to hear the East and West coast gyopos weigh in on this as well…
First of all, about this “American Dream” business.
I believe that we are currently entering into an age where every thinking American is reevaluating the meaning of this thing we call the “American Dream”. In the past, it meant having a big house in the suburbs, a nice paying job, two cars in the garage, a dog, and 2.5 kids. The Dream was largely defined in terms of materialistic success.
For our parents generation, the reasons for coming to America were largely economic and practical. From nothing, zero, nada, they became entrepreneurs, built businesses, forged communal ties, provided for their families, educated their children in a strange, confusing, and sometimes hostile land. The first generation deserves much credit for their hard work, sacrifices, and accomplishments.
They did a fine job in fulfilling the basic levels within the Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. I believe that their children, namely us, and later generations have to aim higher in terms of fulfilling Maslow’s Hierarchy as a community.
We need to define and further clarify who we are as Asian-Americans. We need to figure out who we are, what our guiding principles and values are, and what we stand for. From there we need to go further and re-define the meaning of “American” itself. This country is still an experiment. The definition of American is constantly in flux. We need to make our own unique mark on this definition.
We have to constantly grapple with the larger culture. We have to make our voices heard in the on-going culture wars and the national dialogue. There is a lot of unfinished business. It is a constant struggle and a fight. This country does not give you a choice but to fight. The founding motto was: Join or Die.
In our quest to re-define America, we must never forget that we are also of our respective Asian heritage and a minority. Our relative economic success has been both a curse and a blessing. A comfortable middle-class existence breeds complacency; too many of our peers settle for mediocrity. As a minority there is always a constant tension between integration within an Empire (America is an Empire) and our reality as a people of a unique heritage. There is a tension between what Dr Martin Luther King, Jr called the “Dream” and what Malcolm X called the “Nightmare”. We need to balance the challenges of integration but also be faithful to our identity and pride as Chinese, Vietnamese, Koreans etc, a minority, and Asian-Americans. Out of this dialectic we forge a new synthesis. Our downfall is that we have largely excelled at one but not the other. From Model Minority we need to become a more Militant Minority.
The largely White male dominated power structure will try to impose upon you rules mostly on their terms and to your disadvantage. The White man has largely usurped the language and rhetoric of Political Correctness to fit his own agenda. He will call you racist, a bigot, and intolerant if you dare to exercise the freedom of defining your own identity according to your own reality, which is not his, and for daring to question “White makes Right” status quo. All minorities suffer from this aberration; the White standard is the reference point from we tend to subconsciously view all things and informs our biases. But in the Asian-American communities, it is practically a disease. We need to have a Copernican Revolution and declare that the world does not revolve around Whitey. For this the White man will declare you treasonous. No, I say that makes you quintessentially American.
Oh, and for their children marrying outside the tribe, 14% opposed it, 13% agreed with it, and 69% said they opposed it, but would permit it.
Now I will discuss the America’s Plurality Doctrine and Colorblind Liberal Multicultural Myths.
The definition of American is largely in two parts: legal and cultural. The legal component consists of citizenship, following the Constitution, civic duty, and paying taxes. Beyond this, there is no right or wrong outside of natural law. But the mainstream nativists would have you conform according to their own narrow, self-serving ideas regarding assimilation.
Whom you choose to marry is not an issue of right or wrong. The question of whether to marry an Asian or a non-Asian is not a matter of right or wrong.
Their is a certain bullshit liberal myth, however, that if we all just fuck each other indiscriminately into a brown/beige hue that the problems of racial intolerance will magically disappear. The idea is that if you’re part Irish and part Anglo, two groups who have traditionally hated each others guts (Gangs of New York), inter-ethnic hatred is canceled out. The fallacy of this argument though is that Mutt (Irish, British, Scottish, Welsh, Polish, Jewish, and some Native Indian blood) is just yet another ethnic group. America will always have different ethnic groups. We tolerate each other precisely because we are all different in color and creed. There is no tolerance in sameness. This is the central paradox of the Plurality Doctrine.
In reality, apart from the touchy-feel-goody colorblind liberal myth, interracial dating and marriage in America tends to stubbornly follow a pattern, an unspoken color code and a definite racial/gender hierarchy. At the top of the food chain is the White man and it is no wonder he peddles his bullshit so vigorously. But tell me, what ethnic strife and division is nullified by the union of Asian women and White men, that most common of interracial pairing in America? If anything it buttresses the White male patriarchy and reinforces White prejudices. The last thing America needs is a race of Michelle Malkins and Marcus Epsteins.
Okay so now i know that Urb4n is a “black” Muslim, trying to salvage the dignity of the asian female from her own naive perception of social progress. why does everyone imagine themselves in a John and Yoko relationship?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5lMxWWK218
this is where bruce is no ones boy too.
Two Key Words of Human Existence: Love and Hate
http://www.newoxfordreview.org/article.jsp?did=0609-vonhildebrand
Recently I was told that a particular cardinal enjoys great popularity: “He gets along with everybody.” This was meant as a compliment, but I have my doubts. True, there are people who have a pleasant temperament; they are “jolly good fellows” and do not antagonize others. They are easy to get along with, enjoy a good meal and appreciate fine wines, and like relaxing on a golf course. They do not assume that it is their mission to correct and educate their neighbors. Such people are, no doubt, unproblematic. But one can legitimately ask whether the popularity they enjoy is a response to their inner goodness or to their comfortable mediocrity.
A witty cynic once said, “Mediocre people are always at their best.” To them it makes no difference what a person’s ideas are, as long as he’s a “nice guy,” feels good about his beliefs, and does not challenge those of others. Why should we oppose people because of their “lifestyle”? People should be left to choose their own paths; this alone would guarantee universal peace. Who can say what truth is anyway? Everyone is entitled to his opinions.
Popular people “wisely” refrain from engaging in “sensitive” topics, usually ethical or religious — the genesis of most disagreements. This explains why some of our most mediocre politicians have attained to key positions in government.
But are such people loved? The answer is that they are neither loved nor hated, for they are neither hot nor cold. On the day of their death they will be forgotten. They are not to be envied, for he who goes to his tomb without having been loved has had a sad life indeed (Schiller’s “Hymn to Joy”). Dante has severe words for such people, who “lived without blame, and without praise” (Inferno). He refers to them as “These unfortunate who never were alive….”
@kobe – Carradine was a poseur. to my knowledge, he had no spiritual insights or attained any kind of knowledge or self awareness other than to spout off some 1960′s flower child nonsense. he was a slave to convention, to fame, ego and celebrity.
and maybe Jet does have some spiritual insights as to the nature of humans and our relationship to the universe. i know it has been broached in the movie Fearless, but I confess I have not read enough about Jet to know if he’s talked publicly about the spiritual side of the martial arts. Bruce Lee’s writings is littered with philsophical concepts about the spiritual.
So are you a legitimate asian person or you feel you became a tourist to your own culture? Jet Li was a monk, this much i know; like many of the other people who manage to walk out of the temple, they are an island of knowlege and wisdom.
But recently i would say that due to Chinese communist policies, religious people were forced to marry b4 they can leave the country. The end result would be the loss of a huge spiritual development. Celibacy is essential to a point in spiritualism, unlike things like Vanishing Son where the man can get laid with his white girlfriend nearly every episode..
Carradine was rhetorical; Richard Gere is Buddhist, why is he Buddhist? does he understand?
Just a plug to second kobukson’s recommendation: Martin and Malcolm and America was a GREAT book. Not a good book, a GREAT book. I highly urge everyone to read it. I was actually going to recommend it to Robert because it talks about the “temporary separation” beliefs of Martin King.
With respect to Yin and Yang, I think Malcolm was at a strange place at the end of his life when he said that. He was right, of course, but at that point, he had already repudiated his Elijah Muhammed, and he had said that he was wrong on many things, including his statement that the White man was the devil. At the end of his life, he was striving to maintain some consistency while dealing with some new realizations. He also realized that keeping his scary, field image alive was better for the movement since it brought King more attention.
So I wonder if the comparison is valid in this case. In order for it to be so, I think URB4N would have to repudiate his sales trainer and start dating Asian women like a playah.
By the way, with regard to the mood after Michael Jackson’s death, do most of you agree that Bruce Lee had that elusive universality that Jackson had? It’s very rare–the Beatles, Muhammed Ali, Bruce, Princess Diana, and possibly JFK.
what is a “legitimate asian person”? i think we all have similar yet unique experiences as asian americans, but i don’t know what makes for being a legitimate asian person. i think for us AA’s, we have a bi-cultural pull; for some, it seems to be more of a tug of war. I have the map of China all over my face, yet I wouldn’t consider myself Chinese at all since I was born and raised in the US. I do, however, have a sense and awareness and pride of my cultural heritage because it’s been passed on to me through my family elders. I happen to be an American of Chinese ancestry and in my travels to Asia, I’m quite sure the Hong Kong and Taiwanese locals knew immediately that I wasn’t really one of them.
Bruce once said, “You know what I want to think of myself? As a human being, because I mean I don’t want to be like ‘As Confucious says’, but under the sky, under the heavens, there is but one family. It just so happens people are different.”
It’s an interesting contrast with Jet and Bruce. If Jet was a monk at one point, which I was not aware of, then he certainly fits into that traditional mode. You have to remember that Bruce was very much an individualist, someone who defied convention and tradition and so his philosophical thoughts, while having roots in Taoism and Buddhist concepts, he sought to free himself of any strict rules or tradition. Jet is rooted and ground in the traditional Buddhist ways and practices. Bruce was on a journey of self discovery and always stated that everyone must find his or her own truth.
Now, as to whether Richard Gere is a buddhist just because he follows Tibetan Buddhism, it is not for me to decide. He is obviously drawn to some spiritual meaning and teachings.
And yes, Bruce is one of those historical figures who had universal appeal, that transcended race and nationality.
“The last thing America needs is a race of Michelle Malkins and Marcus Epsteins.”
That is a scary image right there.
Worse yet, imagine an Asian America that is a race of Tila Tequilas and William Hungs.
That idea would be worthy of Scary Movie, Part 5.
If you want to transcend race, religion and all that stuff to be “world class”, then you seriously need to know what the real problem is. People dont have real pride, its more like a bandwagon thing for everyone. ie Muslims should not brag too much about Islam right now because of events in the world.
What is Asian when there are so many ethnic groups? How can you really justify stuff like, Im a new yorker…. he’s a texan… or he is from cali…. or thats not me, he is floridian… blah blah blah on “american” issues?
Asian ethnic groups managed to bypass technicalities with not being “chinese” during the ban. Even so, how many Asian languages can you speak fluently? something like this needs to be popular b4 any progress can be made.
Imagine a world with a higher discipline like in Hunt for Red October
@kobe – I’m not quite sure what your point is because you bring in so many elements, but I’ll try and answer.
I think Bruce’s evolution was a huge personal journey of self discovery and his relationship to the universe. he had the freedom to do that, unrestricted from any formal teaching, dogma or ideology from an institution. I don’t know if Jet had that freedom to fully explore Buddhism under a communist regime. Yet, I believe Bruce knew what the problems were, being an Asian in a white dominated culture. He experienced it firsthand when they bypassed him for Carradine as the lead of Kung Fu!
But what is “real pride”? Does Jet or Jackie have more pride than Bruce because they were born in Asia? Bruce was raised in Hong Kong and it wasn’t until he came to the US at the age of 18 did his evolution begin.
We are not a monolithic bloc because, as you say, there are many groups within the Asian community. But if you’re born and raised in the US, you become assimilated into the predominant culture, which happens to be white. You have to deal with the greater society at hand, unless you want to stay socially isolated and segregated in Chinatowns or whatever ethnic enclaves there are. You can keep your culture and language alive in those enclaves. But it also puts you at a disadvantage in not being able to deal with the white man in his world if you completely isolate yourself like that. And therefore, that’s why I say there is this bi-culturalness that many of us have.
Having said that, who has adapted themselves into American culture more? Bruce or Jet and Jackie? I don’t think of Jet and Jackie as being American, even if they do have homes here in the US.
Think of it as a religion, choose one, christianity, islam and buddhism and so on. You are a missionary in a foreign land; You alone have to live by example;
Every time you hear of assimilation, you keep wondering if you lose something of yourself. Maybe you lose free will, why not just think you are adding to what you already know? The problem is that what you already know may be completely wrong; but you cant accept that, and this is where people fear losing.
You being asian; would have to raise the bar on intelligence, you have to learn 2 or 3 languages fluently. Look at Indiana Jones, he know everything about everything except himself, he doesnt know that his original language is Welsh. a different take is James Bond, but he adapts fast.
Bruce Lee may have been a victim of self hate, but he had to unlearn what he knew and relearn everything to find out where they really fit in. re evaluate what you think you know; people fought religion with science, finding truth piece by piece.
a friend told me about a simple perception like 2×2 =4, 2×3 = 5. it was right, depends how you saw it, can you see it?
Ahhh, but just as Bruce had no fighting style, neither did he adhere to any religion or institution. He was free from any sort of Iman or Pope or cleric or lama. And in that sense, he was free to develop his own spiritual beliefs and truth and question things. Jet was probably taught in strict fashion the principles of Buddhism which is heavily controlled and monitored by the Chinese communists. Was Jet in a position to question his teachers at the monastery? Should Jet re-learn everything he knows? Should Jackie? I don’t know if Bruce had any self-hatred. But he did unlearn what he learned and questioned the arts and eventually founded Jeet Kune Do.
But do we as Asians always have to live by example or set examples? And yes, assimilation does cause one to lose something. That’s true for white people as well—how many of them can speak the language of their grandparents or great grandparents? In the end, can’t we as Asians just simply live and be? Bruce, while facing racism in Hollywood, found a way to live and be himself. I’m sure Jackie and Jet have experienced some forms of racism in Hollywood. Have they found their way to live and be in America?
You think like a girl, are you a girl? you look like you just can pass all this stuff just by marrying UP. This is where females sell out, a whole different kind of digging. what can the guys do?
Bruce lee was pretty much the only one that could pull off Jeet Kune Do;
jackie, jet and bruce constantly practiced the martial arts;
going back to basics and building up faster and stronger, because it was necessary; otherwise it would be lost anyway.
Be fluent in your old world and be fluent in you new world, anything less would be an insult to what you are. There will be hundreds of people stupid enough to remind you every day.
White people who just end up speaking only english, this is fine. no need to say he is french or germany, because what is the difference now? they have latin, do asians have latin? Do we have anything to bridge the gap in communication with asian groups in general?
Its not like spanish to the hispanics, asians people need to order the deck, and not just stare at the mess that is shuffled. Do you know where you are supposed to be? Somewhere down the line, some religion nut will say God has a plan for you….
Blacks had near zero idea of who they were, but they tried to make the environment around them their very own, look at the evolution of music, dance, sports? language? Kwanzaa is a fantasy.
Dude, man, you’re wearing me out. I have no idea what you are talking about now. I was addressing the difference between the three men and said that what set Bruce apart was his journey of self discovery and the philosophy he developed about martial arts being a pathway to something spiritual. I tried to respond to what I thought were your points but then you bring up different subjects altogether.
I have no idea where you got the idea of me advocating “marrying up” or behaving as if I’m “thinking like a girl” or even introducing the thought of dating dynamics into the discussion of these three artists.
Somehow, we are not communicating our ideas clearly to one another.
Yeah, I’ve trying to figure out what Kobe was saying, too. They almost sound like riddles.
Perhaps you should follow the yellow brick road?
culture…. to be valid you learn seperate disciplines thoroughly and then become a master.
Bruce Lee knew multiple disciplines of martial arts,
he mastered multiple disciplines of martial arts,
he developed Jeet Kune Do from multiple disciplines of martial arts.
the whole movement of MMA was based on this idea.
But only Bruce Lee truely understood it. maybe Dukes?
are you ready for the Kumate?
culture is what we have, it is probably the thing that divides us most. maybe just calling ourselves asian americans and move toward calling each other yellow americans, the blacks do it, the white do it. wanna make power rangers a reality?
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Don’t argue with someone who is crazy. Over time, people won’t be able to tell you apart.
I don’t know where else to post this link, but in case some of you are unaware: http://brucelee.com/
Holy shit! That’s an absolutely awesome site! I’m putting that on the front page tomorrow. Thanks, Leon!
B.
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