According to CNN, Euna Lee and Laura Ling were sentenced by North Korea’s high court to 12 years hard labor, which was the expected maximum sentence. If carried out, this guarantees that Euna Lee’s daughter will grow up without a mother. I have no idea what kind of kangaroo court they put these poor women through, but that’s an awfully fast decision given the fact that the trial only started on Thursday. As mentioned in the video above, many people don’t survive the labor camps, but the report also says that in the past, convicted American journalists and soldiers have not actually gone to the labor camps and have instead been freed through negotiations. Hopefully this will happen again.
CNN reported:
The Central Court of North Korea sentenced Laura Ling and Euna Lee for the “grave crime they committed against the Korean nation and their illegal border crossing,” the Korean Central News Agency said.
It’s on the front page of CNN as the top story. They do mention in the video that perhaps the North Korean government could be mollified if someone of Al Gore’s stature pays them a visit. I’m still processing this right now.
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I dont understand why Asian Americans show so much empathy and sympathy for these captured journalists. Especially when they are working for organisations linked to the U.S government, against a sovereign nation in Asia which remains divided due to U.S cold war politics. Can somebody please explain???
Maybe its just me, but i would always be leaning towards supporting PRC, Vietnam, Nth Korea etc in conflict against U.S or any other of the former european colonial powers. Even though I’m asian “westerner” lets face it, what happens in Asia affects the situation of Asians in the “west” because the racism and discrimination we receive whether in Asian or U.S AU CA, all comes from the same place,same racial ideology of white/euro supremacy. So i dont understand why asian americans support these “house asian” “journalists…..Please explain???
Swap them for Al Gore (throw in Hillary as a sweetner)
Ignorance of the law does not excuse anyone. Just because you are an American does not give you the right to break laws in other countries. Although it is a great perk to have. If they were white, they would have been released sooner. Since all their famailies are married to white people, they will eventually get released. What a great card to have! Most others would have been in that prison for a long time. Lesson to everyone: Don’t think because you are an American makes you superior and above all international laws. Respect other people and their way of life. When you go into someone’s house, it’s their rules. This kind of attitude has our country in the place that it is today.
No matter what you think of North Korea, they are a sovereign country. They have borders that everyone knows you are not supposed to go near. So why is it that these two reporters dare a country to act in a way that they have always acted. Now we are supposed to feel sorry for these two idiots who are selfish for their own notoriety. They have thoughtlessly inflicted tremendous pain on their families and loved ones. They have put the U.S. in a very awkward position in dealing with this instead of the missle and nuclear threats.
If North Korea releases them, we should jail them to finishout their sentances for sheer stupidity. I am so mad at these two.
I agree, they put themselves in danger in trying to get the story about North Korean illegal immigration into China. They must’ve have known what they were doing was pretty dangerous. If they thought, “Well, we’re Americans, we’ll be okay” then that is pretty stupid thinking. It’s the same mentality of Westerners getting caught smuggling drugs or possessing drugs overseas in SE Asia or the Mid East or Latin America. Sorry, you broke another country’s laws, which may or may not be draconian in their punishment.
But on the other hand, N. Korea holding secret trials? I doubt this was remotely fair and is, instead, a bargaining tool by N. Korea with the US and the Western allies.
Okay, so let me first open with a disclosure: I have people in my own family who disagree with me on this issue.
So two points in my defense (if you can call it that):
1. We know they were close to the border, but no one knows if they actually crossed over. The China/N. Korea border isn’t all that heavily fortified or even marked in all areas, and it’s possible that either they or the N Korean soldiers who stopped them made mistakes. Since it sounds like they didn’t talk to anyone in Korea, I highly doubt that it was intentional.
2. As for North Korea being a sovereign nation: Yes, it is, and yes, there’s a good argument to be made for them being subject to North Korean laws. Given point #1, however, I think it’s reasonable to ask for a fair hearing that could include input from China and the U.S.
As for punishment, this reminds me of an old Star Trek episode where Kirk, Spock, and McCoy visit a planet with no crime. The people on the planet are suspicious of the guys from the Enterprise, and the Entreprise people are interested in how these people managed to eliminate crime.
Later, a boy (I don’t remember if it was a boy from the planet or from the Enterprise) walks on grass that has a “do not walk on grass” sign, and a few of the inhabitants of the planet get ready to vaporize him for his “crime.” Kirk, Spock, and McCoy naturally can’t have this, so they whip out their own guns and tell the guardians to back off lest they want a human and Vulcan beat-down. The leader of the planet tells the group that they’ve allowed crime and sin to tarnish their culture.
Now I don’t think North Korea is without crime, but this incident illustrates the difference that comes about when two cultures have different values on punishment. To me, it seems a bit harsh to kill a woman (which is what will happen in those labor camps) for stepping on your grass.
Besides, this doesn’t seem to be a pure case of Aisian Sovereign vs. USA bullying. South Korea is an Asian Country too and so is Japan, yet the NK government has made multiple threats and has gone out of their way to be both provocative and threatening to both Asian countries.
If the South Koreans took a vote tomorrow, do you think that they would vote for the current USA military on their northern borders to pull out or stay where they are? I certainly am no fan of many US foreign policy decisions, but this doesn’t seem to be a simple West vs. East scenario.
“1. We know they were close to the border, but no one knows if they actually crossed over.”
North Korea’s done crap like this before. I wouldn’t put it past them. But it’s entirely in NK’s interest to keep the women alive and unharmed because they want money more than prisoners. Then Kim Jong Il buys scotch and Uranium with the money, or whatever.
Here’s the thing: North Korea wouldn’t be doing this if it weren’t completely bankrupt. Why they’re bankrupt, that’s what’s interesting.
You all may remember the North Korean abductions of Japanese citizens. These Japanese people were snatched from their own homes in JAPAN. Check out the article. One 13 year old girl was snatched by North Korean frogmen on the coast. She eventually committed suicide–or so it was reported, but who knows for certain? It’s the same deal with Euna and Laura.
The Japanese are no fans of the North Korean government. From what I understand, even though they’re both communist, the PRC views them as a kind of embarrassing brother, the same way the Bush family views Neil Bush, or the way the Clintons view Roger. That may be the reason they’re so lax in rounding up the illegal North Koreans living just north of the border.
There’s a good blog post on possible negotiations by Gordon Chang here:
http://teamwashington.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/06/08/rescuing-ling-and-lee-from-north-korea/
Are you saying the Euna and Laura got “snatched”. How can you snatch someone when they are in your country.
I remember the Japanese kidnappings. More than anything I remember the video of when they were finally released. They looked reasonably healthy, which is good news for the current captives.
The point jaehwan’s making is North Korea may be fudging its facts, and perhaps they, once again, had no legal authority to take these people.
A little correction: You must’ve meant China being communist, rather than Japan.
Wow such hate directed at these two. First we don’t know if they crossed the border or not but even if they did 12 years is ridiculous. I guess those agree with this sentence will agree that the defacto Americans who came from Cambodia when they were young kids then committed a crime as an adult and so were permanently deported was just outcome? Hey they broke the law right?
You are being a self righteous prick saying the law is the law when it doesn’t effect you and the sentence is absurdly unjust.
These women may (key word may) have done something dumb in the course of doing their job but 12 years given after a secret trial is clearly over the top
what if the trial was about marrying white ppl, like say how Malcolm X was jailed for 11 years?
True, we don’t know the exact circumstances of their arrest. Of course the “trial” is pure nonsense when it’s a secret trial. Yet, they chose to put themselves in danger by getting close to the N. Korean border. I’m not saying they deserved what’s happening to them now. but it’s the dangers a journalist faces when trying to get a story in a remote part of the world that is basically lawless and is in an area ruled by nut jobs.
It’s the same kind of contributory negligence for these Christian missionaries in the MidEast, who think they can just move about freely and not get into any trouble. And yet they wind up getting held hostage, or worse, murdered.
I just read the article about the Japanese abductees. 25 years, and not all of them came back. I gotta eat my words on that one.
Check out Friends of Kim, an amazing 80-minute documentary about DPRK sympathizers who go to North Korea. It’s on Youtube in its entirety.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C76HqPaA6kw (then follow the youtube links for #2-8)
And a 60-minute documentary in 3 parts where an American managed to sneak his video camera into North Korea and take some amazing footage.
http://www.vbs.tv/northkorea/
“Look…we dont know if they crossed the border”
That is the stupidest comment that keeps cropping up. You people are in denial. Then your comments are to act like North Korea is going to be as rational as you, have the good heart as you , set them free as you would. Guess what, they are not you. They think you are as crazy as you think they are, but you think your more right and more just. Bleed out you heart as much as you want, it wont change a thing. It is their country and their laws and they can run it as they please and you have NO say so in it!
Just like they have no bearing on our laws. Why dont you go picket on their border with signs and loud speakers and see where that gets you. These girls knew that and tempted them to act. And act they did. That stupid act did not just endanger their lives, it impacted the sum of the nations that surround the area, and put America in a position that it was not in previously to that. Two stupid, asinine girls that thought they were smarter and more just than the North Korean nation. They bet it all and lost, and now want someone to risk their life to set them free.
jaehwan,
the episode was on star trek next generation, with Wesley falling on the lawn. kinky spring time wear, semi greek.
WOW…Bigshot, you have the most sensible and realistic post on here. If people think the two journalists should be set free, just hurry up and petition the U.S govt to start a war or “regime change” Nth Korea, just like any other country the U.S doesnt like. EVEN BUSH WASNT THAT CRAZY!! geez, Worlds second largest land army, largest special forces in the world, nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, all within striking range of stategic U.S interest in East Asia, not to mention U.S “allies” Japan/ROK/ROC do you guys even realise the seriousnessof the situation?? Do you think PRC would allow the U.S to attack and destroy DPRK at will?
The U.S posts on here complaining about Nth Korea REAK of Arrogance and Condescension, i mean take a look at your own country first if you want to complain. Gitmo? Abu Ghraib? MK Ultra? COINTELPRO?…ahem…yes….thought so.
PRC isnt “embarrassed” by Nth Korea, in fact, PRC uses DPRK as a “pawn” to put pressure on the U.S, PRC supoorts DPRK AND ALWAYS WILL, CCP realises that if DPRK falls to U.S , the the next country is PRC. If the people thought about this for a moment, they would be less inclined to make uninformed statements. The U.S needs to stop acting like it will rule the world forever, the U.S empire has already reached its peak, and needs to accept their inferior position in the future multipolar world, dominated by the countries of South and East Asia!!!!
So the majority of you here would support it if the US enacted a law that all illegal Mexican border crossers would be subject to a 12 year prison sentence in a labor camp which they would likely die within? The law’s the law after all right?
interesting.
Eric,
That dependent clause that contains the word “communist” modifies the independent clause that contains the subject “PRC.” Sorry for my poor writing style though. At work, sometimes I just crank stuff out quickly.
In addition to the fact that not all the Japanese inductees returned, also think about the fact that these Japanese were not kidnapped for hard labor. They were kidnapped to be teachers. So their jobs were probably “cushier” (I put it in quotes since it’s still a bad situation) than what Laura and Euna would get.
Bigshott:
“That is the stupidest comment that keeps cropping up.”
Stupid is a value judgment. Either way, the comment is true–the North Koreans had a closed door trial, so not even North Korean sympathizers know what really happened. If they crossed into another to snatch these women–as they did with the Japanese abductees–then it’s not their country.
All the world is asking for is some disclosure.
And leniency–12 years for stepping on grass is outrageous.
Kobe:
They may have rehashed the theme. I remember the dialogue being really loud. You know how actors used to scream at the camera back when they had crappy microphones?
Miley Cyrus:
Could you have picked a different screen name?
I think geopolitics have changed somewhat. Back during the Cold War, China, had to, as you say, watch out for North Korea since it was a Communist ally. That’s one reason China participated in the Korean War–they didn’t want a democracy at their Korean border. There was a fight among the two ideologies.
These days may be different. China is simply too big of a trade partner for the U.S. to fight. A price increase at Wal-Mart would throw the American population into a tizzy, and China owns so much of our debt. Plus, we no longer have the resources or international support to fight since Bush squandered our military resources on Iraq. Plus, I’m sure China isn’t in love with the fact that North Koreans are running into China to escape starvation and that the government is always demanding humanitarian aid. It creates embarrassing situations on both sides. It’s like brother who is always asking family for money and is always throwing tantrums–with his nuclear arsenal.
@ Bigshot
“They think you are as crazy as you think they are, but you think your more right and more just. Bleed out you heart as much as you want, it wont change a thing. It is their country and their laws and they can run it as they please and you have NO say so in it!”
Yes, but with that theory we all should have simply left South Africa in a state of apartheid because hey, what gives us the right to judge the legal system of another country? The same goes for Nazi Germany—what gave the world the right to intervene in the affairs of a sovereign Reich? How about cultures in Africa who mutilate the genitals of young girls before puberty so thet they can never experience an orgazm? Don’t you just hate those self-righteous Women’s Rights organization who raise a stink over that kind of thing? Why don’t they mind their own business? Who gives anyone the right to judge anything?
By that definition, nobody outside of the USA should ever challenge the policies and actions of the United States, since it’s a sovereign coutry. Don’t you agree?
@Miley Cyrus
It’s impossible to put North Korea’s human rights abuses under the same light as America’s. In a world where people are shot and killed for stepping on your grass, what’s to incentivize the people from committing armed robbery with murder if it results in the same punishment? If you want to eliminate crime through violence, you’re forced to have a police state that strictly limits the rights of all people to zero. That produces an economic meltdown, the state gets desperate, and when a state gets desperate it takes hostages and makes nuclear threats.
I see a bunch of comments here like “It’s their country.” No it’s not, it’s Kim Jong Il’s country. The people aren’t allowed to own anything. That’s something to picket about.
North Korea is no different that a King or Queen running the country. You may not like how they do it, but it is up to the people to change it. We had our Revolutionary War, its time they have theirs. It might also be time for another one in the U.S. to rid ourselves of a blossoming Socialist Government. China could change North Korea in a second if they wanted, so why dont they?
We are not going to go to war for 2 little girls, sorry. You can say all you want about human rights abuses, ( which is an oxymoron, because there is no such thing as human rights). So called Human Rights are something that your government gives you, it is not something that is bestowed upon you at birth and follows you were ever you go. In your mind you may think so, until the next guy decides to not let you have them. They can be given or taken away.
The word Human Rights is just a bumper sticker phrase that people throw out but have no clue what it is, but will argue endlessly that they do.
Robert- if the people of the U.S. enacted a 12 years sentence, then yes I would be infavor of it. I think we have that now, its called picking fruit. And if you didnot like it, then you have the option to move somewhere else that suits you better.
Look, everyone is trying to equate their morals to another countries. Some counrties are closer to our that others. But to sit in your comfortable home 7000 miles away and denounce them is rediculous. You can either shut up and take it or get a rifle and try to change it. Problem is that most who gripe would never go themselves, they want others to do it for them. They themselves are acting like a King.
@ Bigshot
Almost every modern revolution has been achieved with the assistance of outside alliances. Take the American Revolution—would have totally FAILED if the French hadn’t been so nosy and judgemental.
Point 2: Revolution is only possible when certain conditions exist. Again, the American Revolution wouldn’t have happened if the colonists hadn’t all had flintlocks and muskets hanging over their fireplace mantles. If the only people who were allowed to bear arms had been the British Grenadiers, then the colonists would have been soundly defeated at Bunker Hill and hunted to exstinction soon thereafter.
You can’t simply blame the oppressed for their own oppression. You might as well blame the German Jews because they didn’t have the moxy to overthrow Hitler. You might as well blame the rest of Asia because they didn’t feel like stopping Imperialist Japan in WWII. The North Korean people are more to be pitied than lambasted for a lack of initiative. They are the ones who are starving while the military get’s regular food rations. Do you really expect them storm the palace with pitchforks and torches?
And do you really not believe in Human Rights? Really? I mean, so like… Ghandi and Martin Luther King had that all wrong? The only rights that people have are given to them by whatever govenment they happen to be born under?
Is this REALLY your belief??? Or are you just trying to make the discussion more lively?
King says: The only rights that people have are given to them by whatever govenment they happen to be born under?
Yes! Prove me wrong! If you are born in North Korea or America, are your “so called rights” the same? Of course not, change your government, then you can change your life.
It not human rights really, it lifestyle.
Maybe I should ask you what your definition of a “RIGHT” is?
Um. As a KOREAN, I do not support North Korea because its regime is not a humane one, it’s led by a lunatic, and, if it were to gain any kind of power, it affect South Korea where my mother lives.
This isn’t about “Oh, boo hoo, these “house Asians” got what they deserved because they broke the law of North Korean.” From what I understand, they were working on a story about desperate North Koreans defecting into China. I’m not sure how that makes them “house Asians” whose plight deserves no empathy or sympathy. Fuck, that kind of logic excuses a lot of other things such as war crimes.
North Korea is notorious for kidnapping foreigners. Whether they did actually cross the borders is a valid question. If they did not, North Korean government is in violation of international laws.
Whether you believe in border control or not, this is human rights issue. Not just for these two journalists but what about others who were sent to these kinds of camps?
And who cares whether they are married to white people? That kind of thinking isn’t “activism” – that’s just backwards to bring that up as a reason to feel no empathy.
So when soldiers sign up and then are killed or held hostage, are we to feel no empathy because they “knew” what they were getting into is dangerous?
This is a country that allows their children to starve. You respect that and its laws all you want. As far as I’m concerned, the comments here prove that these journalists needed to get the stories out to educate the world.
King and Mama Nabi,
Excellent points. I agree.
King, you are right. Whether we’re talking about the Communist revolution in Vietnam, or the French Revolution, or the American Revolution, or the Chinese revolution, virtually all modern revolutions involve outside alliances. In an era of globalization and technology, it’s to be expected. We all share the same humanity.
You’re also 100% correct on your argument about conditions. The North Korean people are starving. They don’t have access to food, much less firearms. Their education is controlled by their “Dear Leader.” They are as oppressed as oppressed people come. That’s why so many of them risk their lives to get out.
Bigshott:
“You can either shut up and take it or get a rifle and try to change it. Problem is that most who gripe would never go themselves, they want others to do it for them. “
Or I can ask my government to use my tax dollars and diplomatic resources to do something about it. Acting impulsively and acting stupidly are often one and the same thing.
I also agree with King on the “rights” debate. Human rights and civil rights were the basis of Ghandi and Martin Luther King’s actions. If you don’t believe in rights, your rationalizations have no foundation on which to stand. Martin Luther King, for example, protested to change America’s laws because, he argued, universal laws trumped any man-made laws that the government was imposing on African Americans.
I’m optimistic that something will happen that will allow these women their freedom, but to see what they risk, CNN interviewed someone knowledgable about North Korean prisons here:
http://amfix.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/09/life-inside-a-north-korean-prison/
Very little food, very hard labor, overcrowded conditions, and by other accounts, violent beatings. This is a very bad situation. No one deserves the kind of treatment they would get in these prisons.
@ Bigshott
“Robert- if the people of the U.S. enacted a 12 years sentence, then yes I would be infavor of it. I think we have that now, its called picking fruit. And if you didnot like it, then you have the option to move somewhere else that suits you better.”
Picking Fruit? Really? Wow! I must have missed the part where Laura and Euna entered North Korea looking for work to send money home to feed their families! I must have also missed the part were the North Koreans were going to pay these women for all the hard work they’ll be doing, and also the part where they have the option to say “Whew! this is tough work, I think I’ll go back home now” at any time they please! Oh yeah, and also the part where they have the option to illegally bring their families and they’ll receive public schooling benefits superior to what’s available in their home country. Thanks for clearing that up for me!
Seriously now Big, How on earth can you even begin to compare an illegal immigrant entering the US voluntarily and finding work picking fruit in a scenario that they can leave at any time to being sentenced to a labor camp for 12 years where theres a better than average chance that you’ll die? Even you can’t pull that comparison off convincingly. Morals have nothing to do with it.
@ King great points man!
@ mama nabi
You bring up a wonderful point that has been overlooked in these discussions. These women are journalists. If it weren’t for journalists taking risks like this, we as consumers/readers would be clueless about so many issues that we are all passionate about. I just wonder what kinds of stories they will return with when/if they are freed? I’m sure they’re getting a very detailed look at the North Korean prison system, and provided they are allowed to interact with other prisoners (a fact that may be being denied them for the very reasons I’m bringing up) I’m sure they’ll have a lot to tell.
What is a “grave crime” against a country? If what the two journalist were doing was espionage, they were neither charged, tried or convicted for it. If it was espionage, what is wrong with simply accusing them of espionage and providing the facts? Or if they spit gum on the side walk say so and show me the proof.
If there is no definition of the crime, how can one apply the facts surrounding the offense to the law? The fact that the charges, facts and trial are shrouded in secrecy indicate nefarious reasons for this course of action.
As Americans, we should care what happens to our fellow Americans, whether they are Asian, Hispanic, Portuguese, Scandinavian, African, Celitc, Anglo or whatever in ethnic background. Being a sovereign nation does not give that entity the right to take another citizens life or liberty. I don’t stand by this North Korea court because they make no case for their actions. I stand by my country(wo)men.
BTW Byron, I don’t care much for CNN because it is editorialized. I tend to cross articles with outside new sources. Here is a link to the BBC which says pretty much the same thing as CNN, but sometimes outside sources are more fact driven and use less commentary.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8088601.stm
Thanks to Jaehwan and to Robert.
The reason that I was asking for Bigshot’s definition of a “RIGHT” is because from what he’s written above, I’m assuming that he’s thinking that the given laws of a nation are the same as Human Rights. I vehemently disagree with this notion. Basic Human Rights have always been defined as those rights which supersede national or cultural law.
As Jaehwan was pointing out, why would Martin Luther King be marching for basic Human Rights for African-Americans if those rights were wholly determined by the legal statuettes of Arkansas or Mississippi? Using this definition, there is simply no such thing as an “unjust law.” All laws must be just, because the State establishes equity and morality by fiat.
If I were King for a day (and I am) I’d define Human rights as follows:
Take every person on Earth, and put them all into one gigantic room. Lock the doors!
Explain to all that this will be the Universal Human Rights Constitutional Convention.
Go on to explain that every human being has one vote and whatever rights that are established shall stand.
However, the one caveat is that, before the voting begins, every person will be stripped of his or her identity; his or her power; his or her wealth; his or her education; his or her status; his or her etnicity; and his or her gender. Every human being will be reduced to a bare soul with no idea what identity, gender, or position, will be assigned to it once the convention is over.
So you can vote that women are to be second-class citizens, but you may be reborn as a woman! You may vote that poor people should have no power, but you may be reborn as poor. You may deny rights to certain ethnicities, but there is no garauntee that you will not be born into those very ethnic groups to whom you deny rights. You get the picture?
I believe that the results of such a convention would bring about a short list of universal Human Rights.
Or in other words, Human Rights are the rights that humans whish for themselves and those whom they love, not the rights that they are willing to reluctantly grant to other people.
These are the Human Rights that we are talking about, not the arbitrary and unfair laws of states, tribes, and nations.
Oh my gosh Robert, it was a joke! Take a breath, drink something cold and relax.
Its called irony.
I said,
“And if you didnot like it, then you have the option to move somewhere else that suits you better”
That was directed at you and you took it as being about the pickers!
Again it is said “Human rights and civil rights”. There is not such thing. It can only be given to you or taken away from you. It is not automatically a birth right from a higher power. Yes, it is something that people strive to obtain, but there is no guarantee that you will aquire it. And those so-called rights are different from person to person.
SILENCE, Bigshot!!!!
We are all ganging up on you and there is NOTHING that you can do about it!!!!
Surrender your vapid arguments!! Your fate has been sealed!!!
I now DEMAND that you accept MY thesis on Human Rights immediately!!!!!
now THAT was irony
King, I understand where you are coming from, but you live in a dream land. ( but I’ll bet it is beautiful in your mind as it should be).
You say:
“Basic Human Rights have always been defined as those rights which supersede national or cultural law.”
Fine. In a utopia. BHR’s are different in every persons mind. Its like asking some one, what would make you happy. You get a different answer from everyone you ask.
Maybe you can write a song like John Lennon’s “Imagine” and call yours “Basic Human Rights”.
Then you say:
“However, the one caveat is that, before the voting begins, every person will be stripped of his or her identity; his or her power; his or her wealth; his or her education; his or her status; his or her etnicity; and his or her gender. Every human being will be reduced to a bare soul with no idea what identity, gender, or position, will be assigned to it once the convention is over.”
So you want every one to vote like you! You want to strip every person of their uniqueness, culture and life experience and vote just like you.
I can not say this enough. There is no such thing as Human Rights!
For 200 year in America, a baby had a Human Right to be born and since the early 70′s that right has been taken away and replaced with a Human Right to have a mother be in charge with her own body.
Here is the most basic of Human Rights as you call it, BIRTH, and it is at odds with itself. So, maybe they are just laws after all, yah think!
KING…maybe we should rename you the court jester
Hahaha! Perhaps, but it’s not nearly as impressive…
Bigshot, again you are confusing things. Everybody knows that a Human Right is an ideal—something to be striven for, even if it is not quickly or perfectly achieved. When we say, as a matter of fact, that women are equal to men, we don’t mean that they have historically been treated that way. We don’t even mean that women are always treated that way at present, in most parts of the world. However, we do believe this statement to be true. We believe that Women have the RIGHT to be treated as equals to men, even if it is not always the reality. So if women are not allowed to vote, by law, we say that such a law is UNJUST (meaning that it conflicts with a basic Human Right) and we try to change it. Do you understand?
That kind of Right relies upon something that we humans call “fairness” or “equity.” It’s not something that has to be taught and it’s not specific to any one culture. Human beings refer to fairness as a matter of course, whether you are a famous lawyer, or the poorest dirt farmer.
EXAMPLE: Please lend me your bicycle, remember when I lent you mine?
EXAMPLE: Leave that poor guy alone, he hasn’t done anything to you!
EXAMPLE: Stop stealing my fruit! I planted it and watered it all summer, it belongs to me.
EXAMPLE: If you want my cow, then you must give me something that I feel is of equal value in return.
These ideas of basic human fairness don’t just work in one country, even people who come from completely different cultures and who don’t speak the same language can trade goods based on a general understanding of fairness.
When laws are passed that conflict with the basic ideals of fairness people complain and are unhappy. It may be the law, but people still know that it is unfair. People lose respect for such laws and the people that make them because it conflicts with a more fundamental understanding of equity that we all possess.
The case that I’m making is not that all laws respect Human Rights. That WOULD be a dream, as you say. But just because a law conflicts with the basic doctrines of fairness, does not mean that the doctrine is erased by the law. Deep down people always know when they are being treated fairly or unfairly. That is the basis of what we call Rights.
hello guys and girls,
my small comment about the white husbands was valid and legit.
i tried to compare it to the perspective of Malcolm X.
you are talking about a country in isolation to preserve whatever the culture is. they get jailed for any of a number of things, no matter how crazy; in communism, you have an ultra conservative mindset. Race and Country is almost the same, its that simple.
malcolm x mentioned that dating white women was the only access to hurting the pride of white men.
Watching James Bond movies are not completely useless.
this isnt Tommorrow Never Dies. that was too simple.
Die another Day? maybe, a little too close. im not digressing.
doesnt this apply in the case of white men and non white women? isnt it in some brutally honest way that it is all about who the guy is compared to the girl? have you not seen troy?
this isnt some romantic romeo and juliet thing, its a deeper side of politcs.
bad example, romeo and juliet were cousins like the parents were brothers.
tell me this isnt the north and south scenerio again.
look at Othello, that is a better case here.
espionage = people sneaking into the country, like breaking into someones house.
you think it was better if it was 2 asian guy reporters?
these are girls man; young about the same age as us all.
i bet in some way laura was trying to do the investigative reporting; like her sis when she was in Somolia? how can you one up these things? where are the camera men? if any?
hard labor might help remove the spoiled american living? ill stop here, im trying to think like a NK Gov member.
mami nabi,
saying “as a korean” as a qualifier qualifies what exactly? Its just like saying “as a chinese i think china should be reunited” or “as a chinese i think china should be two countries” it really depends on the politics, on where you stand.
The two journalists are now bargaining chips in the diplomatic battle between U.S and Nth Korea.As far as i’m concerned, these two journalists are adults, and should take responsibility and ownership of their actions. Soldiers know the risks of serving in the military, just as U.S journalists know the risks of entering a country that currently classes itself in a state of war with the Sth, and the U.S.
Regardless of whether they are house asians or not, on a responsibility issue, they should have known better, and exercised sound judgement before engaging in such risky behaviour.
Educating the world? the world already knows, thats why there are organisations such as LiNK etc and U.N who have programs to help the Nth Korean refugees, why dont they actually help out instead of searching for the fame?? (and i really dont believe that these journalists DO care at all….have you seen their other news stories??…watch them all, then tell me if you think they REALLY care about human rights etc)
The world already knows? Hm. I wonder how often I am asked whether I am from NORTH Korea or SOUTH Korea from Europeans, from Africans, from Americans, and oh yes from Asians. The world is vaguely aware of a crazy “funny” guy who’s in charge of one of the Koreas. You posed the question with a qualifier why “Asian-Americans” cared so much so I qualified my answer.
Really? From the few pieces that they may have been assigned, you can tell whether they care or not? How familiar are you about the world of journalism and how it works? Even the most passionate journalist does not get the “important” assignments right away.
Throwing words like “house-Asians” around does not get you a leg up in activism. Being globally aware of different issues is more of a first step.
If journalists stopped taking risks because it’d be too dangerous – again, there is still a debate whether they were taking known risks or were grabbed while they were still on the Chinese ground – I guess we could all sit back in our privileged comfortable world and feel smug.
As far as your lack of empathy due to your belief that if you knew the risk going in, you take ownership of your responsibility, I have no argument there. Empathy isn’t a learned emotion so you don’t have it, you don’t have it. However, many people who have it have it and are feeling it right now for these women who have families and a little girl who might grow up without her mother. So I guess I find it distasteful to see comments that condemn them with shallow unsupported basis of “Ooh, I want to be an activist, play with the big boys, and throw around words like house-Asians, and talk about unrelated colonialism and white-power.”
in response to actions in gitmo? or more like a singapore caning on a larger scale than keying cars and used chewing gum?
I agreed with the Singapore caning. That American kid was a troublemaker by all accounts, he didn’t deny doing what he did, and he was just trying to defy the authorities. Most Americans agreed with the decision–”Cane the fool!” Most people trust the Singapore government because they really do have law and order in that country–there’s very little history in terms of ethical violations. Caning hurts like crazy, but the law is the law. It’s not inhuman. They even reduced the punishment just for him, and then they let him go free. He lived to see another day, and as soon as he got back to the States, the kid once again returned to his mischief and petty crimes.
In this case, we’re talking about death. Death for something that we aren’t even sure they did. Death for two of our own citizens who were (it seems) risking their lives to shed light on the plight of Asian women who were being trafficked, to tell the story of terrible violations in human rights. Death at the hands of a government which has kidnapped innocent Japanese before, even going so far as to kidnap them out of Europe.
Having lived in Asia and being an Asian American, I consider myself very pro-Asian, but when I look at everything that North Korean government has done to its people and to the people in the neighboring regions, I have to question their authority. I really do think that government poses a threat to the region, if not the world.
Sun Myung Moon, tried most of his life to unite the koreas. He even promote IR relations when apropriate? or does he represent the problem that NK goes against?
Cultural invasion with a foreign religon; is he some kind of “House Asian”? might as well say “chigga” in parallel. Was Malcolm X more “Black” than Martin Luther King?
Emasculating the asian man ie eliminating the right to a standing army for a nation; look into japan’s situation; the phillipines?
Germany had a wall; Korea has a mine field; Vietnam has a mine field; cuba has embargos.
brown skin guy with straight black hair must suffer more. Japan with two nukes… A WALL?
mama nabi, i really wanted to send you a pm (coz i’m wary about giving too much info out online) but i dont have your details so i cant so i’ll just do this publicly
Just wanted to say I see your position, and i will just keep it civil and say that i STRONGLY disagree with it.
About what you said
“Ooh, I want to be an activist, play with the big boys, and throw around words like house-Asians, and talk about unrelated colonialism and white-power.”
I’m speaking from my personal experience in regarding the Chinese Beijing olympics / free tibet situation that occured recently, so i really relate criticism about “Asia” or “something in Asia” as a covert attack on asian people because i noticed that the people who said “human rights in tibet” or “no olympics in beijing” etc were the same ones who were saying “ffin chinks, you know they eat cats and dogs” “oh they are greedy melamine in the milk, all they care about is money” “they all brainwashed chinese, what do you expect” etc in other words they tried to use a “legitimate” reason to attack China and chinese people but then it just degenerated into ugly racism, so it was just an excuse all along to be racist covertly.
I was in uni at the time and working and people at both places were saying really hateful things under the cover of “human rights”. I was one of the people that protested on the street FOR China, cause i was just so pissed off at all these closet racists. Thats why i brought white power and colonialism into it cause it really related to what happened in my experience.
So that is my reasoning, why i stated that. I’m not Korean, and ive never been to Nth Korea, so i have no first hand experience about what it must be like.So i just used my empathatic experience in my former situation, maybe you think i’m wrong, and i apologise if what i said came across as harsh. I’m not trying to “get you a leg up in activism”, or anything like that. I’m just doing what i’m doing, i ve read your blog, i can sense youre a good person and I’m sorry if i hurt your feelings.
This is my personal youtube channel/email, please feel free to pm me or check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/user/jingfengchen24
jing-feng-chen@hotmail.com
I know youre are sincere in your beliefs so i dont want to get into an internet argument with you, you have legitimate concerns, i was just thinking about the other people who dont.
Anna
I’ll just state again for the record that, the majority of the Asians in North Korea itself are kept in a state of constant fear, dirt-poverty, and starvation. The South Koreans are Asians, and they overwhelmingly despise the North Korean regime. The Japanese (also Asians) are trying, at this very moment, to figure out whether or not they need to respond to NK’s ongoing threats by building their own bomb. The Chinese (Asians again) have become increasingly less supportive and more alarmed at NK’s actions. And now, two Asian female reporters have been tried in a “secret trial” and convicted of charges without any media or outside observers even being present to hear the case against them being made.
Given all of this, can you honestly say that the North Korean regime is pro-Asian????
Here’s another statement of action today from China, South Korea, and Japan:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/11/world/asia/11korea.html?th&emc=th
More sanctions against North Korea. It says,
“Written by the United States, the resolution came after more than two weeks of negotiations among the five permanent members — China, Russia, the United States, Britain and France — as well as with Japan and South Korea. It was presented to the full Security Council on Wednesday, and although no timetable for a vote was announced, it could come as early as Friday. Given its supporters, the measure seems assured of passing.”
It’ll be big news if they pass it, especially with the discussion of inspections.
There was another person that was with Euna Lee and Laura Ling at the time of capture: Mitch Koss, a camera-man also with CurrentTV. Mitch Koss managed to escape leaving the two women to their fates at the hands of North Korean border patrol (not Western chivalry’s finest hour).
The key question of whether they were apprehended on Chinese soil or Nork territory would rest in Mitch Koss’s testimony. He would have definitely been interviewed by the State Department about what happened. Fact is, ever since the news first broke out, there has not been any mention whatsoever. If the State Department had learned from Koss’s debriefing that the pair were captured on the Chinese side, this would be a violation of China’s jurisdiction by North Korea, and Clinton et al would have used it to get the Chinese to weigh in on getting them released. China is the only nation that has the most leverage over North Korea. The fact that there is absolutely nothing about this in the media is most telling.
To me, this is oddly reminiscent of the Korean missionaries who went to Afghanistan, of all places, to proselytize and were captured by the Taliban. The end result of this little misadventure was that two people were beheaded and the Korean government paid in excess of $40 million to terrorists to negotiate their release. This in turn earned the ire of legitimate NGOs and aid org’s who work in the field, because capturing innocents suddenly became profitable for terrorists. There were photos of the members of the missionary posing in front of government issued warnings forbidding Korean nationals from traveling to Afghanistan at the airport, which demonstrates that these people had no respect whatsoever for the real dangers that they were about to put themselves into. Laura Ling’s last words as a free woman was a facetious twitter message stating “I hope my rancid kimchi breath would ward off the North Koreans”.
Un-F-ing-believable.
Hey Kobukson,
Welcome to bigWOWO! I saw your post on the IR podcast, and it’s good to see a 44 here. I’m hoping to respond to the IR post, but it’s different running a site without the rest of the 44s team. So many questions and posts!
So here’s my view:
I’m not sure if the government would rely heavily on Mitch Koss’s testimony alone. First, the border between China and North Korea isn’t clear in all places. Koss might not even know for certain if he went over. Second–and perhaps more significantly–the government is asking all people involved not to make too much noise. That is the reason why Lisa Ling and family took so long to speak out–Lisa said so in that family interview–and that is probably why Gore and Koss haven’t said anything. When you’re dealing with a dictatorship that has shown so little regard for international law, it’s not just a matter of being right; it’s a matter of handling the situation so that all parties benefit. As I mentioned above, China isn’t crazy about North Korea. The NK government tests nukes, threatens one of their largest trading partners (Japan), and is always begging for food–everyone in that region provides welfare for Dear Leader’s state. When you’re dealing with a government that acts that way, it’s hard to win on anything.
I couldn’t find the twitter quote you’re referring to, but I found this, as reported by AP:
http://www.kcra.com/news/18967738/detail.html
Ling, apparently sending updates about her trip to the online site Twitter, wrote Saturday that she was at the Seoul airport en route to the “China/NKorea border.”
“Hoping my kimchee breath will ward off all danger,” she wrote.
I think the AP quote is probably the correct one–after all, why would starving North Koreans be turned off by the smell of kimchi?
Why would Koreans period be turned off by kimchi?
In any case, it doesn’t indicate whether she planned to enter or not enter North Korea. Of course she knew going anywhere near the border was dangerous, but all investigative reporters face danger. And yet, investigative reporters still exist. They understand this. I don’t think anyone is arguing that they don’t; it just happens to be part of their profession.
Just a quick drive-by comment (am going to be late to class!) to add that I read somewhere (will find the link later) that the initial itinerary did NOT include even being where they ended up and there are speculations that the Chinese guide may have led them astray.
RE: the Tibet issue – I won’t touch that as I grew up near Tibetan refugee camps in the Himalayan mountains in India and I certainly do not support the Chinese government at all on that issue. Just as I wouldn’t have supported the Japanese occupation of my people.
Will find that link unless someone else finds it first.
I will just briefly add a comment to this already lengthy conversation. I have no idea if Lee and Ling were indeed in North Korean territory. However, I do not put it past the North Korean government to have snatched them illegally. They’ve done it before (Japan), and they’ve even done it to their own children in China. North Korea has historically snatched their own children from the border towns of China because they claimed they had “rights” to them. Now, without getting into that conversation, let’s talk about what North Korea did to these children once they caught them. Torture, abuse, and death. That’s right. The guards demanded money from the children. The children were in the streets of China begging for food and money because poverty had stricken their families, killed their parents, or their entire family. Remember, this is a country where over 2 million people have died from famine. If the children refused to give up money, or if they didn’t have enough money to please the guards who caught them, the guards would shoot them. In the head. Now, you tell me. How do you go accept this county’s laws and support the right of NK to punish Lee and Ling how they see fit just because they’re in that country?
Also, to compare the Korean missionaries going into Afghanistan and getting captured by the Taliban isn’t a valid comparison. The Taliban isn’t a country as North Korea is. The Taliban pretty much control certain areas of Afghanistan, and so the Korean missionaries knew full well of the danger of being captured and tortured.
Secondly, do you really think that one man’s testimony is going to work to get China to somehow strong-arm North Korea into releasing these two journalists?
Thirdly, I get really pissed off that people here have referred to them as “girls.” It’s disturbing.
Finally, blindly being “Pro-Asian” (ie – supporting China over Tibet) is almost akin to supporting the Janjaweed in Sudan just because white people have taken up the cause for supporting the crisis in Darfur. I mean, let’s just let the Sudanese government kill millions of its own people because, after all, us white colonists shouldn’t step in where we aren’t wanted.
Girls? Sorry, I meant to say CHICKS!
Jaehwan: Hey Kobukson,
Welcome to bigWOWO! I saw your post on the IR podcast, and it’s good to see a 44 here. I’m hoping to respond to the IR post, but it’s different running a site without the rest of the 44s team. So many questions and posts!
Thanks! Looking forward to participating in your blog.
Mama Nabi: RE: the Tibet issue – I won’t touch that as I grew up near Tibetan refugee camps in the Himalayan mountains in India and I certainly do not support the Chinese government at all on that issue. Just as I wouldn’t have supported the Japanese occupation of my people.
I think that issues of past or present occupation or imperialism is more complicated and nuanced than one may realize.
What I do see is that there tends to be a rigid dichotomy that “occupiers” are evil and oppressive while the “occupied” are righteous and victimized.
I am a Korean and I do not think that the Japanese occupation of Chosun was all evil and no good. In the late 1800′s, Japanese enterprise had investments in Korea in areas such as rail and natural resources in addition to America and Europe. In 1894, there was violent mass rebellion against the King, the yangban class, and foreigners called the Tonghak Peasant Rebellion. As a result of this crisis, Japan became compelled to send troops to Chosun as well as other the Great Powers (think: present-day international naval coalition against Somali pirates) . The rebellion was subdued and for a period there was an uneasy balance of foreign influence and control in Chosun. Eventually, Chosun became a protectorate of Imperial Japan in 1905. Like the British and Roman Empire, Japan gained territory not deliberately but according to a historical chain of events which led to this outcome.
In 1895, Japanese administration passed a law ending slavery in Chosun. As late as 1870, up to 70% of the Chosun peasant class were slaves, or nobi. This is a reason why Kim, Park, and Lee are disproportionally common surnames amongst Koreans today. When the nobi were freed, they did not have their own names under the family titles registry system, or Hoju-je. Much like American Blacks after emancipation, they took on the names of the yangban-class whom they served.
The Japanese introduced much needed modernity to Chosun. Commoners were just as oppressed under the feudal system under the yangban ruling class.
P2H: Finally, blindly being “Pro-Asian” (ie – supporting China over Tibet) is almost akin to supporting the Janjaweed in Sudan just because white people have taken up the cause for supporting the crisis in Darfur. I mean, let’s just let the Sudanese government kill millions of its own people because, after all, us white colonists shouldn’t step in where we aren’t wanted.
This is not a fair analogy because the Han Chinese are not killing millions of Tibetans. China’s activity in Tibet is very much like the westward expansion of America during the 1800′s. China is building infrastructure in Tibet and ushering modernity to areas of that region that time has forgotten. There are Tibetans that welcome the arrival of Chinese investment.
I believe that the West tends to support Tibetan independence because of what I call “Shangri-La Syndrome”. They entertain a romanticized, Orientalist notion of Tibet, of which the Dali Lama is the perfect incarnation of this idea. Modernity is an anathema and of course China is the “evil empire”. America has no legs to stand on this issue in terms of moral authority because American territorial expansion was built on events such as the Oklahoma Land Rush of 1893, the Spanish-American War, and the Monroe Doctrine.
I knew that Euna or Yuna or however you want to spell it was married to some white guy. All the liberal “i work for gore” activist denounce their korean or asian upbringing and try to be white. growing up, it’s usually these girls who disdain their own background… ashamed that their house doesn’t smell like hamburgers and instead smells like korean food…. ashamed because they don’t have blonde hair and big boobs like their white cheerleaders frieds. The just wish they could scrub away the asianess off their skin. I can’t stand people like this. Why not just be proud of your heritage? These people will never be white… no matter what. and because they reject their race, they have nothing to fall back on when they finally experience the rejection from their white “friends”.
They don’t realize their Asianess has it’s own advantages and beauty… I mean, Asians don’t age fast like whites… Asians have hairless skin. White women spend hours a week trying to de-hair their body. Asian’s are born without the need to epilady all the time. Asians don’t have BO… no apocrine glands. I could go on and on. But of course people like Euna don’t care about things like this. They are a product of the white brainwashing they received growing up… and have not been able to think out of the box enough to realize it.
“We’ve just entered a North Korean courtyard without permission,” the Korean translation of their narration on the videotape said, according to KCNA. One of them picked up and pocketed a stone as a memento of the illegal move, the report said.
There goes the theory that they were kidnapped on the China side of the border. I would expect all the bleeding hearts above who claimed they doubted they would have crossed the border and North Korea came across the border and snatched them, would post an apology to the other clear thinking individuals. In case you dont, I personally accept all your apologies in advance. It is now clear that these “chicks” took the U.S. interest into their own hands and must now pay for their stupidity. I think that these chicks should apology to all the hardworking, clear thinking, and law abiding women of the world, who are disturbed by their behavior.
Haha…so you quote the KCNA, which is the propaganda arm, I mean, news agency, owned by the North Korean government.
Next time you quote someone, would you mind linking it? It’s the proper way to give credit, plus it’ll help everyone to separate the truth from your North Korean propaganda.
Thanks.
Your still in denial, Hey.
I only have to list the source, linking is not the proper way, its just the bloggers way that have no credibility on their own.
Nope, you didn’t list the source either. The source is AP.
You probably quoted AP since you don’t know how to read Korean and therefore can’t even understand this propanda agency that you want so badly to support.
im sorry, i usually have no sources to quote, its almost off the top of my head.
it almost looks like trolling i guess, but i read a lot of stuff online; ill get more organized soon.
its a pathology; ill link when i can, so at least we are on the same page.
3 strikes and your out! You are such a tool!
I guess you are a future blogger also, or at least once you grow up. I am not perfect at Korean, but pretty good, my girlfriend is better. Also, the KCNA website is also in english.
You can now get a real reporter job at MSNBC because just like them, you are one-sided in your reporting, biased and dont fact check you reports. That would make you a “Future Reporter also”
“You can now get a real reporter job at MSNBC because just like them, you are one-sided in your reporting, biased and dont fact check you reports. ”
Hahaha…and the KCNA is not one sided, right? You seem to be good at believing everything the North Korean government says, so maybe you could get a job working at the KCNA. I heard the job comes with a free diet to help you lose weight.
The Washington Post has a report on a KCNA news brief alleging that detained journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee filmed themselves crossing the frozen Tumen River and entering a North Korean territory. The report also claims that six videotapes were confiscated from the pair, who interviewed North Korean refugees in China prior to their arrest.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/16/AR2009061600651.html
If it is true that videos of North Korean refugees were confiscated by Nork authorities, then those refugees can be identified. If they are still within China then China will extradite them back to North Korea because that is China’s policy on North Korean refugees. They have endangered not only their own lives but the lives of the refugees also.
Thanks, Kobukson. I like that fact that the Washington Post is reporting on the KCNA report, but I don’t think the KCNA report has any validity whatsoever until they open it up to independent inquiry or the independent media. I’m not saying they didn’t cross, but the fact that the KCNA is a state news agency that has historically twisted the truth means that their reports should be taken with a grain of salt.
I think there’s always a tradeoff between risk and success, i.e. too much risk is bad because you can die, but too little risk is also bad because you can never succeed. If they filmed these refugees and then puposely crossed over, then I’d probably agree that that is too much risk. This has yet to be confirmed. Hopefully the North Korean government will stop bobbing and weaving that we can learn what really happened.
I agree with you that the KCNA’s reports must be taken with a grain of salt. But there is still a gag on Mitch Koss and Current TV. The silence from that corner is deafening.
Of course there is a gag on Mitch and North Kurrent TV. Do you want them to run around and yell, yes we entered NK and are guilty? Better to take your shame silently.
Dont worry, when the chicks get out, they will each write a book and do the Morning Entertainment News circuit, throw out the first pitch at a Yankees game and visit The View and Oprah. They will be hailed as brave americans by adoring fans for enduring their pain, and people will slobber all over them, hanging on every detail. Maybe Lifetime Channel will do a movie of their life.
I’m telling you, Bigshott, you should move to North Korea. I hear the government loves people who believe everything they’re told by the authorities. It would be good too–this month, bigWOWO has had visitors from some 60 or so different countries, including Iran, South Korea, China, India, Vietnam, Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. But I have had NONE from North Korea. So you would be my first North Korean visitor this month.
Oh wait, that’s right, they don’t have internet there, or at least not one that looks like ours. Which is why even their propaganda arm is hosted in Japan.
Awww…your just a hater. The only reason you have had so many responses to this is because of me. No one comes to this site normally. And when I am gone, the only ones left will be your aunt, mom and your life partner. You should thank me.
Then leave, dude. Leave, and don’t let the swinging door hit your ass on the way out. Unless, of course, you’re headed to North Korea, in which case, let the door smack you on the ass hard just to remind you that it was once there. After all, you’re not going to have much of an ass left after living on a single bowl of rice per day.
Oh, and by the way–my aunt, mom, and life partner don’t come here. They have better things to do.
Aww! I thought I was the only reason you had an audience Byron?! I thought that this blog revolved around Larry and I’s disagreements! I am SOO let down!
LOL! You’re cracking me up – Thanks!
Robert,
Haha…well, not all commenters are equal, so to be fair, this blog WAS revolving around you and Larry for a while!
KCNA said it released the report to “let the world know crimes committed by Americans at a time when an unprecedented confrontation with the United States has been created on the Korean peninsula.”
“The accused admitted that what they did were criminal acts, prompted by the political motive to isolate and stifle the socialist system of the DPRK by faking up moving images aimed at falsifying its human rights performance and hurling slanders and calumnies at it,” the agency said.
What I find most interesting about the KCNA is that the report suggests that Laura Ling and Euna Lee admitted and accepted their punishment and crime. What is also strange is that they suggest that the four people clearly walk across the river, up the bank and were arrested ON the spot. If they were arrested on the spot, where were the two men? Also, if they were arrested on the spot, that would’ve indicated that the guards would’ve been somewhat nearby. Did the guards just sit there and watch the two cross the border and then pick up the rock and pocket it, and start the report, and then arrest them? I’m still not sure what’s happened because I wasn’t there. Nobody but us and the guards and the other “missing peoples” and so eventually the story will come out.
*flex* High fives to Larry!
July 7th starts Laura and Euna’s 17th week, being held in North Korea. We have the opportunity to send them messages, via Postcards. Please write them a nice message. You can send individual postcards, one for Laura and one for Euna, or to both on one. Send your postcards to: PO Box 2174 Toluca Lake, CA 91610 USA They will be gathered and sent to Laura and Euna.
How about we send them Postcards of the places we went over the 4th of July holiday and sign them “Wish you were here” LOL
Bigshott,
Instead of making fun of these journalists (and of whose situation you’ve proved that you’re totally ignorant), why not do something productive? For example, there’s a short side discussion here about janmeori. Why not enlighten us with your Korean skills, especially since you’re trying to improve your language skills to the point that you can understand North Korean propaganda? At least you could use the space to discuss an area of which you have at least some knowledge.
I am NOT making fun of them. Actions do have consequences and am trying to show them what they are missing by their block headed move.
“(and of whose situation you’ve proved that you’re totally ignorant), why not do something productive?” LOL
First, why is it that you think YOU are the enlightened one! I can guarantee that I know at least as much as you do about the situation and what could be instore for them. You show your ignorance by trying to place people who may not agree with you on a lower pedestal than you. Maybe you should look around and its possible that people are looking DOWN at you.
These two have ALGORE and Hillary working for them already. I do not want to be productive in their situation. I do think that 2 years may be a just sentance. I talk to you then.
“I am NOT making fun of them. Actions do have consequences and am trying to show them what they are missing by their block headed move.”
That’s exactly the ignorance I’m talking about. You have no idea what they did or how they did it. Whenever the rest of us press you on that, you go off spouting the propaganda from the state-controlled KCNA. It’s not about whether or not you agree with me; it’s about the premises of your argument and the sources of your information.
Yes, I also have no idea what happened, mostly because the North Korean government won’t allow real journalists to tell the story. But at least I know I don’t know.
Guys: Could you please stop wasting time and energy interacting with the immature person named: “Bigshott?” I usually censor my pages out of respect for people who are being targetted by hate. But I can not tell the person whose page it is what to do, so just ignore him. However, I posted the address earlier for the cards to go to. This is serious! They are going to be taken to them I don’t know what happened to my post. Why don’t you delete his nonsense. Mine is genuine. My friend is working with their families. Please stop wasting time with this ill-informed person and-at the families request–”Postcards for Laura and Euna: July 7th starts Laura and Euna’s 17th week, being held in North Korea. We have the opportunity to send them messages, via Postcards. Please write them a nice message. You can send individual postcards, one for Laura and one for Euna, or to both on one. Send your postcards to: PO Box 2174 Toluca Lake, CA 91610 USA They will be gathered and sent to Laura and Euna. Thank you.”
Excuse me, I see the post.
Seriously, it must be a great fraternity that you belong to, that no one else is allowed to disagree with you. And then to name call! Why dont you just call the other two people on the cell phone, talk your hero worship and leave this wonderful blog to the people for remarks, either way. How intolerant of you!
Maybe you can send a postcard in the shape of a key or file for LingLee to escape.
By the way, I told you nothing would happen on this site, when I left. I was not wrong! Why do you have a site when you try to shoo others away? I dont get it!
Bigshott, Stop drinking bleach man. There’s been plenty happenning on this site since you left. I guess your inability to see the activity here may explain your blindness to your own lack of compassion.
Hey Robert, don’t waste your energy talking to that person. Clearly he does not understand the difference between disagreement based in healthy, intelligent, fact-based discussion and the simple immature flinging of negative, ill-informed opinions. As regards his claims that this is a page that would not go anywhere..one wonders why he would invest his time in a cause in which he does not believe. Maybe he can not find a cause to believe in, so he only writes on pages to be nasty.
Anyway, hope you send cards, the address is above. Please repost.
Also Check out the page on facebook:
Free Laura Ling & Euna Lee International Human Rights Coalition
Pingback: Postcards for Laura and Euna | big WOWO
Bigshott,
I recommended that you check out the janmeori discussion; I didn’t recommend that you embody janmeori yourself!
Charlie,
Thanks for the info. It’s on the front page now.
Robert,
I seriously feel bad for people like Bigshott who have no empathy for others. Oi. Well, I guess the best we can do is to try to reach those who do have compassion.
I have to admit, I’m quite surprised at the callousness that many people exhibit toward those two journalists, and I don’t understand how a person’s chosen profession excludes her from our compassion. I mean, if a cop or fireman is killed on (or even off) duty, it would be a tragedy. But since these are just a pair of journalists trying to do their jobs, then they’re simply looking for trouble and deserve what they get? I don’t see the logic.
Clinton announced that The United States has dropped its request that two American journalists imprisoned in North Korea be released on humanitarian grounds, and is seeking amnesty instead, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said. A plea for amnesty implies forgiveness for some offense.
Lisa Ling was able to speak to her sister by phone Tuesday night, according to CNN affiliate KOVR-TV in Sacramento, California.
According to Lisa Ling, her sister told her, “‘Look, we violated North Korean law and we need our government to help us. We are sorry about everything that has happened, but we need diplomacy.’”
Finally the truth comes out!!! I am sure that there are still the nonbelievers here. Lets get our little postcards together.
I am surprised at the childlike compassion of respondents. You are equating a cop or fireman who only works within a city limit and tries unselfishly to undo what other have started, to a supposed journalist who breaks laws and travels the world to concoct a story to shape her opinion and gain fame. Lets put this in a more equal basis.
What if a fireman started a fire in a big high-rise apartment building to receive a promotion and then loses his life trying to battle the blaze. Do you still have the same compassion for him? These chicks went there to start a fire and got burned.
These chicks did not get picked up on Main Street USA OR Lee Ave. South Korea.
Most important question: Do journalists have absolute power to go anywhere in the world, regardless of country, border or law to practice their profession without repercussion or consequence of any sort and do you think that their work is more of a higher order to mankind than to man made laws. Most modern day journalists are slanted in their reporting to advance their agenda. That is why journalism is in such decline and being relegated to anyone with a computer, an opinion and a blog.
“Finally the truth comes out!!! I am sure that there are still the nonbelievers here. Lets get our little postcards together. “
I’m a believer that if someone is imprisoned by a foreign government against their will, and you suddenly get a call from them out of the blue while they remain in that government’s control, that they’ll say whatever that government tells them to say.
In other words, Bigshott, quit being a dick.
Now there you go…you have lost all of credibility when you act like a 5 year old child and start name calling. It doesnt bother me a bit, but I thought that I could have a civil discussion on this board, but your true colors came out when you got frustrated. I understand that you have been caught with your not guilty stance and dont know how to backtrack in the realization that they were where they werent suppose to be, and confessed.
I dont know for sure, but…do you have a crush on the two girls. Do you have Farrah Fawcett style posters of them on your bedroom walls. This is truely blind love.
There’s no such thing as a civil discussion when one side throws all logic out the window and refuses to acknowledge logically unassailable positions. You’re not here for a discussion; just here to spout your pro-NK rhetoric. As you can see, just about everyone here is universally tired of your baseless statements.
Instead of trying to play martyr (which isn’t working), why don’t you just do as I recommended…stop being a dick?
Bigshott, Jaehwan is right, you are incapable of logic. You compare two people crossing the border of a country illegally to an act of arson, and you call that an equal comparison? These are journalists, not CIA commandos trying to carry out a mission of sabotage. But you seem to magically know that these journalists are committing some grave crime that will warrant 10 years in a gulag, one step short of an automatic death sentence. I’ve heard similar things when certain crazy people try to label Mexicans crossing the border looking for a jobs as terrorists.
You belittle and mock journalists and their integrity, but you would gladly quote from CNN and some N. Korean news outlet and site them as “proof” of your shaky claims.
You accuse those journalists of over-privilege, when you take your own privileges for granted by mocking human rights without even bothering to understand them.
You whine about being called a dick, when in fact you’ve been behaving exactly like a dickhead to Jaehwan and other posters. You accuse him of arrogance, when you have treated everyone here who disagrees with you with utmost condescension. All this is quite easily apparent in your posts. And you have the audacity to demand civility from all of us?
If you’re actually older than 14, now THAT would be a tragedy. Of comedic proportions.
Jaehwan: There’s no such thing as a civil discussion when one side throws all logic out the window and refuses to acknowledge logically unassailable positions.
You see, there is the problem! “refuses to acknowledge logically unassailable positions”. Hum…You are logical and I am not? Unassailable? WOW! I guess you have been listening to AlGore, when he says that the debate over global warming is over and you now use that premise to say that the debate over LingLee is over.
First off, the girls are in a very comfortable surrounding and are being treated with much respect.
You know that they will be released in an appropriate amount of time.
“As you can see, just about everyone here is universally tired of your baseless statements” I dont think that the three of you constitute the term “everybody”. Like you said, even people in you own family dont agree with you on this.
“pro-NK rhetoric” …I am a commander in the US Navy out of Norfolk Naval Base (Southern Atlantic Naval Operations) and a Graduate of the Naval Academy in Annapolis…what are you thinking????? I have let your stupidity slide up until know.
These two little girls have made my job so much harder in that instead of responding to the NK’s for their rocket launches, nuclear testing, tracking ships carrying weapons and machinery and denial attacks on our government websites, we have to stand down until we resolve this little incident. I and the rest of my command is furious about this. I would like to send a couple of Seal teams over there to extract their ass and put them in the Brig at Camp Delta on Guantanamo.
While you and your friends are getting a little chub out of this, US intel has to sit. You have no idea how far up the chain these girls are loathed for their actions. Better you get them out before I get ahold of them.
Leon…you are so anemic, grow a set!
i am guessing bigshott is not asian, a trigger happy soldier? when did politics become racial? wanna blame the camera guy too? tell me he is in your hands bigshott, start with him.
Leon says it, kobe says it, I say it, p2h says it, mamanabi…I could go on and on, but honestly, you’re getting boring. You’re acting like a dick, so expect to be treated like one.
“Hum…You are logical and I am not? Unassailable?”
That’s right. As Leon says, you seem to “magically know that these journalists are committing some grave crime.” Logically, you don’t, and everyone sees it. That’s unassailable. There’s no legit news media to tell you that.
“I am a commander in the US Navy out of Norfolk Naval Base (Southern Atlantic Naval Operations) and a Graduate of the Naval Academy in Annapolis…what are you thinking?????”
Okay, what’s your real name?
Seriously, if you’re such a “big shot,” own up to your words and announce who you are. Name, rank, where you’re from, etc.. Military guys are supposed to be tough, so it shouldn’t be too much trouble for you to take some responsibility for the callous, shameful, and sexist statements you’ve made about these two poor women.
“Better you get them out before I get ahold of them.”
Oooh, tough guy. Is beating up on women a new thing they’re teaching in your fantasy military?
Haha…that was just a joke, just like your so-called military career.
Hahahaha!!! I’m a 10-star general leading the Extra Special Forces of the U. S. of fucking A! Yesterday I killed 100 terrorists with my 12-inch penis! I eat 9mm shells for breakfast! I drive a M1 Abrams tank to get groceries! My macho attitude will trump all your logic!!!
So… like on the 92nd posting, you finally break down and reveal that all along you’ve been a Naval Commander with a personal stake in all of this? Why would you keep that such a secret in the first place? And if you did feel that was sensitive information, then how did an Oregon blogger wear you down to the point where you finally compromised it? I mean, Jaehwan may be an effective interviewer, but I doubt if his interrogation skillz are that wekk honed.
I would like to send a couple of Seal teams over there to extract their ass and put them in the Brig at Camp Delta on Guantanamo.
So, just to clarify, is that the official position of the U.S. Navy? We are officially “standing down” until such time as the prisoners are released? Geez, I’m glad that this intel is now on the internet for Pyongyang to read. Imagine how relieved they will be to know that they now have a free hand!
“I would like to send a couple of Seal teams over there to extract their ass and put them in the Brig at Camp Delta on Guantanamo.”
So… all along you’ve been complaining about Euna Lee and Laura Ling crossing a sovereign border with their camera and notepads, and NOW you’re saying that you’d like to send a team of special forces soldiers across the same sovereign border with M4A1 rifles and demolition packs? Why would the second (and more violent) incursion be warranted if the first was illegal in your eyes? I don’t follow your logic.
Haha, but King, you’re talking about a naval commander who believes that the KCNA is a credible source of news. I mean, with intel like that, how can you question such authority? Oh, and in case you didn’t realize, our military is no long about dealing with threats from the “Axis of Evil”, of which N. Korea is a card carrying member. It’s about keeping its own citizens in check. You should be happy to know that your tax dollars are well spent on sending in SEAL teams to slap journalists around for misbehaving.
King and Leon:
HAHAHA! Ooh man, I haven’t had a lol moment in a long time! Charlie asked why we don’t ban certain people. Well, this is why!
King,
“And if you did feel that was sensitive information, then how did an Oregon blogger wear you down to the point where you finally compromised it? I mean, Jaehwan may be an effective interviewer, but I doubt if his interrogation skillz are that wekk honed.”
Hahaha….oh, man! I don’t know why Cheney bothered wasting his time waterboarding prisoners from Al-Qaeda. He could’ve just forced them to leave comments on bigWOWO.com, and we would’ve found Bin Laden by now! Hahaha!
Man, did we just compromise national security by letting Commander Lieutenant Commando-Rambo spill the beans on our North Korea strategy? So now the world knows we’re going to stand down and that there’s no possibility of a rescue mission. We’ve just revealed our hand, and you (and the North Korean government) heard it first on bigWOWO. Norfolk, we have a problem! I don’t know whether I should call the Pentagon or Comedy Central! LOL!
Regardless of what the KCNA proclaims, there are enough objective facts about this case which sorely tests any inclination I may have for sympathy and support towards these two.
From: http://www.globalpost.com/print/2003621
Perhaps it is useful first to contemplate the extent to which the two journalists might have brought this situation on themselves. Did they ignore the predictable effects of their actions on larger U.S. interests and on other individuals — who, on their account, may have gotten into far worse trouble than they are in themselves?
Consider, in other words, whether this was a case of reckless endangerment.
Start with the fact that we are not hearing denials from the women’s family and supporters that they illegally intruded into North Korea, crossing a frozen border river. Rather, we’re hearing apologies for any inadvertent offense the two might have committed.
Seeking and reporting the truth, however loathsome the reported truth shows the regime to be, is one thing. We must do it, and that has been the goal of a number of journalists including myself who have devoted much of our careers to reporting on North Korea.
But it’s quite another matter if these two women gave Kim’s regime a new hold over their own country’s strategic policy-making for the sake of getting merely a better camera angle — or, more questionable still, just to be able to boast of their fearlessness.
I generally had a disdain for journalists who think they have some sort of special protection because of their profession or that they’re US citizens, no harm can befall them. Journalists should know better that when in hostile parts of the world, their actions may be a diplomatic flashpoint should they get caught for being reckless or whatever all for getting “the truth” or a story. And some Americans should know better than to stay in a hostile area where the US government cannot gurantee their safety. For example, I think of Lebanon in the early 80′s. The place lawless and yet people like AP reporter Terry Anderson, Rev. Jenco of the Catholic Relief SErvices and others felt the need to operate in a war zone.
Having said that, we still don’t the exact circumstances of these two women’s capture. We only know what has been reported and we know nothing more of what may or may not be occuring behind the scenes of the public acknowledgements by US officials and the family. So, we’ll have to judge slowly.
In regards to Big Shott, lots of people in DC, where I am, think they’re in the know just because they see some cable traffic or classified memos come thru their office. Hell, I see shit come by my office as well thru the SCIF. Too many people think they know shit and they don’t. They know only a piece of the overall picture and from being in DC and having talked with friends and relatives who are high ranking officials within certain federal agencies, it’s apparent that there are only a handful of people in DC who REALLY know what the hell is going on. The rest gets filtered down. So for someone to be a naval commander doing a year deployment at sea, or whatever, that doesn’t give you any more credibility to be “in the know”.
And as far as wanting to send in ST6 and rough up two women, no matter if they disrupted your normal duties, well, shit happens. Don’t forget that you’re also supposed to be protecting American lives and they deserve some protection as well.
That’s cool. Everyone is entitled to one’s own opinion (although not one’s own facts, Lt. Gen. Commando-Rambo).
I think we need to bide our time and wait and see. The families have apologized rather than challenge N Korea because, as Lisa Ling mentioned in her first interview, the families also don’t know what really happened. Lisa could only say that it wasn’t Laura and Euna’s original intention to cross into North Korea.
It’s possible they’re guilty, and it’s also possible they were abducted from China. I just hope North Korea allows a credible source to determine that sooner, rather than later.
Agreed….we can have our thoughts and opinions, but we don’t really know yet what’s happening or what actually did occur.
I was a bit put off by Big Shott pulling rank, as if it that carried more credibility. Maybe BS does know what’s happening, but I’m sure he doesn’t know the overall picture. He sees, on a need to know basis, just exactly what he needs to see or hear as related to his AOR (area of responsibility). Everyone in the alphabet soup of Washington, DC federal agencies has his or her own perspective when it comes to implementation of US foreign policy objectives and if you’re not at the senior levels, you’re just a field grunt, part of the rank and file, getting the intell filtered down from on high. You see things as related to YOUR agency’s mission and perspective. You don’t, however, see it from the State Department, from the CIA, NSA, Homeland Security, etc, perspective.
And worse, yet, is the anger directed at the women and BS’s desire to send them to the brig at G’tmo. yeah, I understand being angry at people who force you to put your life on the line to save them, but to punish them further by sending them to the brig? C’mon! These are still fellow Americans and citizens. I hope that was just an exaggeration on BS’s part. But God forbid that he receives help one day from a cop or some other public servant and he gets treated like shit when the help comes. Maybe one day a cop will give him the wood shampoo and let’s see how BS likes it.
Let’s just say I doubt Bigshott is who he says he is. Not saying outright that he’s lying, but I have my doubts.