Podcast: URB4N talks about Interracial Relationships

Good podcast. Urb4n, I envy you’re ability to speak so clearly. And Byron, I commend the points you raised in contrast. Right as I was thinking those points, BAM, Byron, lol.

I think a lot of the different perspectives and experiences we have aren’t as purely cultural as they are subcultural. Some scenes embrace equality and some scenes don’t (the latter often reflects the reality of broader global problems.) I see some groups of men and women who are more comfortable with culturally-and-visually-homogenous friends and lovers, some groups more comfortable with friends and lovers from a different heritage than themselves, and others who are just very apathetic in general to visual and ancestral differences. I’ve seen such groups with every skin tone.

In trying to better understand your points of view on the subject, I was left wondering a few things, if you have time and interest in chiming in.

1. In your perspective, is it possible for an Asian woman to be supportive of Asian men even if they are dating someone not of Asian descent? Like, standing for Asian causes, supporting Asian events, etc, while dating whatever individual they feel the most chemistry with?

2. What do you think should take priority - women dating individuals who they connect with best, or dating based on social fairness and cultural solidarity?

3. I think Urb4n mentioned Asian women avoiding Asian men over the stereotype (if you’d use that word) of Asian men lacking confidence and security. Because I choose to indulge in scenes like dancing and DJing and liberal art circles, which involve so many bold expressive individuals that embrace equality as an ideal, I usually see that stereotype defied instead of committed, but I can believe what you say in the broader American experience - I know my chosen bubbles are a bit futurist, and not reflective of the world at large. From my vantage point, I have heard from a few Asian women that they are turned off by the more militant expectation from certain circles of Asian men who think Asian women should only date Asian men. What are your opinions on women who might have this reaction?

I think Urban raised a good point in saying trends tend to be different depending on place, and that relativity should be kept in mind.
But I also really do think things are often as subcultural as cultural. Which makes sense, because it’s about people choosing their ideals, versus accepting traditional ideals. Either case could have good or bad results; it’s all in the context. I have plenty of friends whose other friends and lovers are mainly all within their ethnic community - and plenty of friends with equally diverse friends and lovers, which tend to be the main squad I’m part of. And the views and philosophies of all those people are shaped not by their skin tone but by the factors they identify with foremost - whether it’s cultural and heritage, art, politics, sexuality, whatever they are into the most.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to do podcasts, guys.

Micah, to answer your question #1, I know or am aware of one who is active in Asian American affairs. I met her many years ago at an Asian American Bar Association function (I’m not a lawyer, btw). Francey Lim Youngberg, a DC attorney, is married to a white guy. She is involved in trying to fight the DC city council’s decision to close the Office of Asian and Pacific Islander Affairs.

so yeah, it’s possible, it does exist. But I’m not sure what you actually mean by support. I don’t know to what extent her activism is geared specifically towards Asian American men.

You know, as a computer guy who worked with these machines since I was 12, I thought I was getting into a career that I could enjoy and get good at. Now I see that I’m just a walking stereotype, and a failure of Asian masculinity. I’m so sorry guys. If I get a white girlfriend, would that atone for my sins?

URB4N:

Thanks for the link. I actually HAVE seen that article before–I was thinking of something else when you mentioned it. I will put that into the post itself, along with my own link to the $24,000 statistic I posted.

Micah,

I know you’re talking to URB4N, but if you’re interested, check out my comments under this post, starting at comment #21.

Mojo,

I think it’s cool that you’re in federal law enforcement. I appreciated the posts you made about guns. It’s awesome and EMPOWERING when I hear opinions from Asian American men who are in the industries/areas that we discuss.

Leon and Etain:

For the record, I’m in sales myself, but if I had the mathematical ability to do engineering, I would probably do that instead. It’s my own personality to be somewhat introverted, so I’m probably the stereotype too. At the same time, I totally support investment bankers like URB4N, law enforcement people like Alpha and Mojo, engineers like Leon, and teachers like Etain.

Haha…I’m kicking myself right now and wishing I had invented youtube…

if you’re in a stereotypical field, then there’s nothing wrong with that. you can always subvert stereotypes in other ways. Doing a 180 just makes you 2 dimensional. Look at Masi Oka: he takes a stereotype and breathed some depth into it.

being Alpha has more to do with being comfortable in your own skin and doing what you want to do within reason.

I have to say that I know plenty of Asian men griping about AF/WM pairings. You don’t have to pry it out of them.

But I think things are changing, at least in the Bay Area. I’ve consistently noticed more AM/WF pairings in our area, not that this is supposed to be the be all, end all. The fact of the matter is that if you are a good catch as a male, then chances are you taken, whether by an Asian female or non-Asian female.

And yes there are tons of Asian men in Alpha roles here in the Bay Area, such as law enforcement and emergency services. you can’t be a wuss and be in law enforcement.

Mojorider, it’s always great to hear stories of my fellow Asian brothers who overcome social barriers and pursue what they want. Even though I’m a pretty good with technical computer stuff, I studied media arts to pursue a career in graphics design (my IT skills are self-taught). So, my first statement of me being a computer guy is a lie, but given how I’m constantly the only person in the firm who knows how to fix these things and called upon to do so, I feel like I might as well be a full time IT. Being Asian in college, people usually automatically assume that I was in engineering and expressed surprise that I was an arts major, even when they see me carrying that giant case of art supplies. And I was far from the nice, studious Asian nerd. I partied and got into all kinds of trouble.

I agree that for Asian Americans, especially AA men, our best course of action right now is probably to just cultivate the individuals and become good examples ourselves. There’s really not much we can do given how little exposure we get in the media. As for you guys here, my hat’s off to you for aggressively pursuing careers outside the normal “safety zone” of Asian Americans. I agree with URB4N that the best way to counter negative images is with positive images.

Sometimes I feel like the Asian American community is like that dismembered snake in the famous Join or Die picture by Benjamin Franklin. Instead of states, each piece of this snake represents all the different Asian cultures, and Asian men and women.

Great podcast.

Etain is right on the money,you cant attack the victim of the stereotype, just the stereotype itself/ or the idiots who create and perpetuate it.

People should just be themselves as they are, develope their own personality, define their own identities, not always worried about what others think. Cos thats just as bad when people try change in order to defy a stereotype, actually you are still under the control of the people who created the stereotype. And you can never really be free!

Once again, excellent podcast!!!

Actually, the more i listen to this podcast, the more i feel like URB4N is blaming……but blaming on the wrong people. If an asian woman grows up in a caucasian dominated country and is subject to all the euro/caucasian centrism inherent in Caucasian media and culture, then its easy to become brainwashed and adopt the racist values that are being propagated everyday in every advertisement, movie, music, t.v shows, it enters the subconsciousness, its very hard to even realise whats going on because it is normalised. White beauty is normalised by the dominant white culture.It becomes the standard. The psychological research has shown that its really hard to exercise “free will” when your subconsciousness has been bombarded with all these messages that are working against your own self interest.

The real enemy is not Asian women, they are victims of the system of racial privilege and power structure just like Asian men, In Fact, the real enemy are those who created the discriminatory social system, where value is inherently placed on race/gender.

And also, who says that asian males dating non asian women is going to solve the problem of discrimination? For example look at Black Males in the U.S, they are some of the most masculine and sexualised ethnic groups by the dominant media, yet they have one of the highest imprison rates in proportion of their population in the U.S! the legal system and sociopolitical situation is still has strong discrimination against them, and of black people in general. You cant F#k your way to equality, when the White owners f#cked their black slaves, was that equality? Black slaves were still slaves, whether they f#cked a white person or not, man or woman.

So because white males F*ck asian females, then asian males f*ck white females, thats supposed to reduce racial discrimination how? the socio-political power structure that elevates one ethnic group is still in place! In fact, if asian males start placing higher value on non asian women to date them, isnt that EXACTLY the same as the Asian women who place higher value on non asian men for dates?

The whole logic of problem solving is absurd…..and it just seems like it ends in a blamefest, while the people at the top laugh.

At the end of the day, Asian male and Asian females are still “less” in the eyes of the dominant ethnic group, asian females arent glorified, they are dehumanised into sexualised pieces of meat, in the tradition of colonialism/imperialism, while asian males arent glorified, they are emasculated and written off so that they wont represent a direct threat to those in power. In the end, whether male or female, asians are getting f*cked by “the man” but instead of just writing off the “sellouts”(whether male OR female) and doing our own thing, we are hating on each other and blaming each other for the racial discrimination imposed on us. It just reeks of self loathing and internalised self hatred.

Who cares if asian men/women date outside? if an asian girl doesnt want to date asian because of internalised self hatred, would you even want to date her anyway? and pass this insecurity onto your kids? NO WAY!! If an Asian male dates non asian cause he wants to somehow make things equal with “the man” would any asian girl want to date him anyway??? of course not!!! This is confusion and smoke and mirrors.

Why blame each other? why not blame the people in charge who is trying to divide and conquer? Asians /AzNs should forget about the “sellouts”, they are nothing more than confused victims of the system(both men AND women) and just concentrate on dating other Asians/or who they want.

Either way, therare separate issues, which you cant really address without seeing clearly

Gendered racism
Racism
Patriarchy
Racialised Patriarchy
Colonialism

the main issue is racism (and i include colonialism as a part of racism), patriarchy is another issue, which has been mixed in too, but its totally absurd to think that f*cking a white chick will make an Asian man equal in the eyes of “whites” nah, dont think so, you are nothing more than a plaything, just like asian females to white males!!!

ANYWAY,
but seriously Awesome Podcast!!!!

I never said that dating white women will solve racism against Asian men but rather it would help fight the the asexual stereotype. It shows that Asian men can play on the same level and directly fights the white patriarchal structure. Asian women dating white men enforces the white patriarchal structure. If you look at the link I posted, there is research to prove that a great deal of Asian women are enforcers of Asian male stereotypes.

If Asian women see more white women dating Asian men, it proves to them that their views are incorrect and flawed as worst. It might convince them to seek out Asian men at best. Another point, like I said in the podcast, Asian women view Asian men as a free option. Once this free option dwindles, their leveraged attitudes will decrease with it. It’s like a dog with two bones; it can’t stand to give up either one.

Lastly, it has additional effects which I’ve seen personally. My cousins and I are all involved with non-Asian women. This, in turn, has shattered the idea that white women won’t date Asian men which gives them a huge self confidence boost when approaching white women. Like it or not, a good deal of self confidence for a guy comes from his attractiveness to women.

Again, logic: Seeing so many Asian women with white men hurts self confidence. Seeing Asian men with white women helps self confidence.

“Do you think that there’s instances when inter-racial dating can provide opportunities for learning and understanding of different cultural traditions and heritages between families and groups of friends?”

Yes.

However, let me just preface it with a statement. It’s hard to create cross-cultural understanding when there’s a racial hierarchy in which the concerns of entire communities are trampled on. This is the crux of the Orientalism we’ve been describing. Sure, some people will smile and be totally oblivious to what is going on. But it’s not really “learning” or “understanding” unless both parties can speak freely.

“Do you think that there’s instances when inter-racial dating can provide opportunities for learning and understanding of different cultural traditions and heritages between families and groups of friends? Do you think it has the potential to open the eyes of some family members or friends who might not have much multicultural experience?”

In general it’s easier when there doesn’t exist a racial hierarchy. You won’t get real “learning” or “understanding” when institutions shape the minority dialogue.

uRB4N….

so your saying that to defeat white male racist patriarchy, asian men have assimilate into it by having sex with white women? uhh…okaaay. I just agree to disagree on that one.

micah….

what are you talking about? do you think that euro americans abandoned their traditional culture when they went to America? For gods sake, the national language of the U.S is english! They just made euro culture “American” and in a vein of ethno-nationalism made it the standard.

For example when a person of Korean descent is born in U.S and eats kimchi and takes off his shoes entering the house, eating rice etc…is that “traditional” culture? well when caucasian americans speak english, eat potatos, etc, is that “traditional”? or is that just “american” see the difference?

Both are already American culture, just for the fact that he is american, they grew up in america,it takes place on american soil, it is american.

The difference is the power and value, not “tradition”, the majority has defined what is “traditional” and what is modern “american” culture. But in reality, asian americans should redefine the meaning of american culture instead of just accepting the definition placed on them.

Jaehwan….

I think i’ve already told you jaehwan that i’m a student right? my major is Psychology, and the psychology of prejudice and discrimination and its effects—its a really large field in psychology!

Are you familiar with the work of Gordon Allport? especially his studies in 1954?

He was a famous psychologist who studied prejudice and discrimination, one of the pioneers in that field. What you said about needing racial equality before any beneficial and meaningful interaction can takes place is also what he found out through his research. There are 4 conditions that have to be met, before interaction can be meaningful and beneficial for both parties in the longterm. One of those is equality. His research discovered that when there was no equality, then the interaction was harmful and it raised many more problems……

Also, if we’re going to disagree with someone, let’s also try to adopt a habit of explaining why it’s wrong and what a better solution might be followed with an explanation why.

Many times, I just hear a “well, everyone knows that’s wrong” response or one of it’s many derivatives.

Cool, thanks Anna. I understand what your saying about American custom being built upon European language and philosophies, and a national history of development and domination by wealthy folks with white skin. And there’s a lot of unfairness going on today, much of it the continuation of philosophies from the “founding” power structure handed down to the current power structure. I guess what I’m trying to express is that despite a past that can’t be changed (you heard me right John Connor!), there are some individuals that have this sense of “white pride” or pride in their ancestry (many groups of these people often ignore and dismiss all the tragic bits of history), and probably a few individuals that have “white shame” (who focus on all the bad bits exclusively). But then you have individuals that find it silly to take pride or shame in things they personally have or had no control over. And even though they might be aware of society’s ill and take or fail to take action to help out, those individuals just take responsibility, glory and shame, for only those things they do personally.

I see where Byron might say here: that even if I reject (as a liberal artist or philosophical outcast) the dominating philosophies of America (those founded on Western ideas), I was never faced with a dilemma that’s equivalent to your own. Because I’m in a situation where the American mainstream is considered my cultural identity by a lot of other people. Whereas the mainstream is not considered your cultural identity by a lot of people. So to some audiences, me embracing the mainstream would be very different than you embracing the mainstream. Because one could be considered embracing native culture, and the other would be considered to be abandoning native culture? Am I on to anything? Lol. I’m not smart enough for this. All I know is there’s some white folks (often with a R in front of their name) who are worried about ‘other’ cultures diluting their cultural identity and mainstream American power structure, and there are some non-white folks worried about the mainstream diluting their cultural identity and values/ideals. But there’s also folks of all skin tones who are down to throw all that away (without forgetting the lessons of history), whether they currently have a ’social advantage or disadvantage’, and forge a new future with new ideals put forth by everyone equally. They’d rather play with each other than fight each other. They’d rather make sweet sweet love than mean mean war. And they don’t really care about privilege or unfair advantage as much as they do about other human beings.

The two practical outcomes for a better America seem to be:

1.Embracing each other equally and providing equal resources, while celebrating our differences. Sharing and educating people about diverse cultures. Creating a society of pluralism and appreciation. I love this approach - but it’s bound to have some missteps, and result in some bastardizations here and there - that is the price. Is it worth the end result?
or
2. Comparing and contrasting cultural traits and values until we can cross-reference a universal set of ideals, and make that the new standard culture. Abandon both mainstream (Eurocentric) and non-mainstream traditions, in favor of a new approach that embraces our universal similarities. For this to work perfectly, we have to first make sure everyone is starting with equal opportunity. If we can make it work, is it worth losing those unique cultures (all of them, mainstream or no) for a fair and equal world?

In either case, I’d still get to rock out with friends and lovers of all geographical origins. But what do you think of those ideas? And do you have any other ideas that could work instead to create a more ideal America?

(I know this is kinda off topic, but I’m really interested in trying to better understand your POV’s, if you’ll have sympathy for that.)

Anna,

“Are you familiar with the work of Gordon Allport? especially his studies in 1954?

He was a famous psychologist who studied prejudice and discrimination, one of the pioneers in that field. What you said about needing racial equality before any beneficial and meaningful interaction can takes place is also what he found out through his research.

I’m not, but now I’m interested!

This part of this discussion reminds me a bit of the Rosie O’Donnell defense after she got called on her “ching chong” remark. She excused herself by saying something along the lines of, “but I spoke to my hairdresser and she wasn’t offended.”

It’s the same thing in this discussion. How can anyone claim true learning and understanding when there’s such a huge gap in opportunity and learning between one race and another?

Some people say that their IRs are exceptions. I think it’s a bit of a dicey claim, given the fact that we all live in the same society where the same stratification exists. It’s fine to love someone of a different race, but I think we all have to acknowledge the societal forces which exist along the lines of race.

All I know is there’s some white folks (often with a R in front of their name) who are worried about ‘other’ cultures diluting their cultural identity and mainstream American power structure, and there are some non-white folks worried about the mainstream diluting their cultural identity and values/ideals. But there’s also folks of all skin tones who are down to throw all that away (without forgetting the lessons of history), whether they currently have a ’social advantage or disadvantage’, and forge a new future with new ideals put forth by everyone equally. They’d rather play with each other than fight each other. They’d rather make sweet sweet love than mean mean war. And they don’t really care about privilege or unfair advantage as much as they do about other human beings.

1.Embracing each other equally and providing equal resources, while celebrating our differences. Sharing and educating people about diverse cultures. Creating a society of pluralism and appreciation. I love this approach - but it’s bound to have some missteps, and result in some bastardizations here and there - that is the price. Is it worth the end result?
or
2. Comparing and contrasting cultural traits and values until we can cross-reference a universal set of ideals, and make that the new standard culture. Abandon both mainstream (Eurocentric) and non-mainstream traditions, in favor of a new approach that embraces our universal similarities. For this to work perfectly, we have to first make sure everyone is starting with equal opportunity. If we can make it work, is it worth losing those unique cultures (all of them, mainstream or no) for a fair and equal world?

Your “solution” is not a new or original idea. In fact, it’s an old tired one, and what America already promotes ad nauseum.

It’s called Liberal Pluralism.

Liberal Pluralism sounds wonderful in its pretty rhetoric, but in practice, it’s just a way to reinforce and maintain White dominance–albeit with a more progressive humanist veneer:

“I don’t see race. We are all just human. I am individual. Let’s forget about our differences, get over the issue of privilege and power, and embrace our universal traditions and just hold hands and love each other.” Blah, blah, blah.

This is KumbayaSpeak.

It’s a feel-good lie.

A con man’s spiel.

Sugarcoated poison.

And it’s disingenuous in reality.

In general, this kind of Liberal Pluralist “solution” is really about MANIPULATING a noble sentiment (i.e. common humanity) and using it to maintain inequality and dominance.

In many ways, this perspective is like American propaganda about Democracy and Freedom.

Who wouldn’t support democracy, freedom, or some pluralist ideal about universal humanism?

But the devil is always in the detail.

The concrete application of these so-called ideals is anything but benign.

In terms of race, for example, see America’s system of Chattel Slavery, Jim Crow Apartheid, or the current “Post-Racial” racism.

America has raised this tactic to an art form: The ability to pervert and manipulate a noble political idea BUT only to maintain an ignoble political system in practice.

Again, Tim Wise talks about these issues. In particular, go to 14:30 in the video, where he challenges the Liberal Colorlind model of race relations:

Tim Wise on White Privilege
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJlNRODZHA

just a quick thought here since I’m at work. The discussion has turned now towards relationship aspects. Setting aside the racial politics, one thing that comes to mind about in or out-dating is compatibility. On some level, I’ve found that race doesn’t matter if you find someone that is a really good match for you. I’ve dated some Asian girls and got absolutely nowhere because we just had no common interests outside of being Asian. I’ve dated white girls, a few hispanics, and found we had a lot of similar interests and that made for some fun times.

And now getting back to the racial politics and what not, I do find it harder for me to find Asian girls to date. I dunno if it’s because the pool of availability is smaller than if I were in NYC or LA or something, but I also suspect some of it is due to the social dynamic of some Asian women’s preference for dating white dudes.

No surprised; we’re off to not listening to someone else’s argument because it doesn’t conform to what is already existing in your head.

You’re constantly stating only two points: “Asian men can’t screw racism away” and “Environment is partly to blame.” Both true. Not denying that.

I’m saying “Asian male confidence is hindered by Asian female interracial dating and marriage” and “Asian men who date out will raise confidence of other Asian men.”

Terri, I’m not saying that white women should be “used” for anything. What I *am* saying is that when Asian men who date and marry outside their race more often, it reinforces self confidence and goes against social rules that have been set forth on Asian men.

Like I said in the podcost, I’ve spoken to Meg a few times on this topic and many of her female friends. None of them feel used at all; in fact, they sympathize with Asian men. The white guys (Meg’s brother, personal friends) I’ve spoken to all agree that it makes logical sense. In fact, it was a white guy that gave me some ideas on how deep the resentment can go and cause internal social conflict within Asian America.

Look, I’m perfectly fine with your opinion. However, I have personally seen the change in attitude and confidence from Asian men. I didn’t agree to participate in this podcast to convince anyone nor do I care. I have better things to do in my spare time.

You do what you think is right and I’ll do what I think is right. I’m big picture oriented and couldn’t care less on what the process is. You seem to be so mired in process that nothing ever gets done. Another problem the Asian community seems to have.

Good luck to you.

Wowee, wowee, WTF! 36 comments…most compelling post yet. Deconstructing interracial relationships FTW! Haha! Sorry nothing of value to say. Just here to say WTF! So WTF!

Good observations, Terri. Thanks for the links too. I agree with just about everything you said (though to give credit where credit is due, Frank Chin mentioned that difference between Asian Asian and Asian American men thirty-five years ago).

TMM is a cool guy if I recall correctly but I still have yet to understand what his long posts are driving at. I’ve never seen someone post such a long entry and not really explain anything at all.

Someone mind translating for me?

though to give credit where credit is due, Frank Chin mentioned that difference between Asian Asian and Asian American men thirty-five years ago

A good illustration from Asian-American literature of differences in sexuality between American raised Asian men and those raised in Asia can be found in America is in the Heart by Carlos Bulosan. Although not about IR, the narrative makes repeated references to inter-racial relationships between Filipino men and white women in pre-war America.

What is interesting is that despite laws forbidding these relationships,stereotypes that demeaned Filpinos, and extreme racism, Bulosan never relates any hint that he or any other Filipino in the account ever had the feeling of being emasculated to the point that they wouldn’t or couldn’t find sexual partners. If fact, one could infer from the narrative that the sexuality of the Filipno migrants at that time was so strong that they were able to attract women despite negative and potentially life threatening social repurcussions.

The point is, that none of the Filipno migrants that Bulosan writes about grew up being racially harassed in schools and so had not gone through the process of emasculation in their childhood. Despite living at a time when Filipino-American men were experiencing immense prejudice they never seemed to doubt their sexual potency.

Hey guys,

Please note that URB4N has never posted as a blogger on the 8Asians.com blog, but he has previously commented on posts in the past.

Thanks,
- Ernie @ 8Asians

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