After our first attempt at discussing IR via podcast, we finally brought back URB4N! In this podcast, URB4N, a 29 year old Asian American alpha male investment banker from NYC who posts on 8Asians, Yellowworld, and the 44s, discusses the interracial dating disparity among Asian Americans, and he shares his thoughts about how it affects society, where the trend is heading, and what Asian men need to do. Download it here, or listen to it here:
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The podcast is 22.1 megs and runs for around 48 minutes. It’s longer than what we usually produce here at bigWOWO, but URB4N had a lot of points to make, so I agreed in advance that we’d let it run over if we needed the extra time. As I mention in the discussion, the IR issue is one of the most significant in contemporary Asian American issues, so giving the bruthuh an extra 15 minutes was a small sacrifice for the opportunity to extend the dialogue. We’ll do the same when we do the Asian female podcast on the same issue.
As URB4N speaks, you’ll hear that there are times when I agree with him, times when I disagree with him, times when I agree with maybe half of what he says, and times when I just listen. One area where I agree with him 100% is when he says that many Asian men won’t talk about the issue because they fear ridicule or entrapment. I’ve found this to be the case in my own activism, which is why I felt it was so important to bring him back. URB4N spoke his mind, and he didn’t hold back. We need more Asian men who are willing to do this. Though I didn’t agree with all of his views, I applaud him for his courage and honesty on this podcast, and I look forward to future discussions. I hope he continues to share his views.
One thing that occurred to me both during and after the podcast: Asian men, like all men, fall onto a continuum between being sensitive geeks and chest-thumping jocks. Sensitive geeks include the artsy types or the depressed types. They take time to think, analyze, and come up with explanations. They may or may not be “closers.” Meanwhile, jocks are the sales people and athletes. They like to win and to achieve measurable goals. Sensitive geeks are usually viewed by others as creative, while jocks are usually viewed by others as alpha males. Typically jocks beat up on geeks, the same way a Wall Street guy might beat on an engineer. 
For an excellent article on this phenom, see my all-time NY Times Op-Ed here.
I bring up the geeks vs. jocks discussion because we touched on the Minority Militant vs. BetterAsianMan debate at around 37 minutes. TMM isn’t a geek, of course. He’s a badass American military veteran who produces one of the best AA blogs out there. But the sensitivity is there: he knows what men and women want, what constitutes a healthy relationship, and how men and women can become partners to each other, rather than just numbers. As he says here, “getting the results you need doesn’t depend on how many times you get laid.” This is why people like TMM succeed while the entire BetterAsianMan system has produced failure and more failure. Results are good, but we can’t just view each other as numbers. The journey and the experience are also important.
My view is that Asian men could benefit from thinking about jocks vs. geeks. Geeks could benefit by being more jock-ish, while jocks could tone it down by stepping back to see the forest.
By the way, this podcast was very timely. I just saw this on 8Asians. It says:
“Hardly any Caucasian women want to date Asian men, Ma says. And the feeling is mutual.
“Most Asian men feel they couldn’t handle Caucasian women,” she says. “In most Asian families, the man is in charge. Here it’s equal.”"
Uh huh. We Asian men can’t stand equality. We probably should’ve expected some stereotypical nonsense like this from Ma, given that “Ma’s business depends in large part upon white men who want to marry Asian women…” A modern day Sun-Tzu would relish in this observation: rice chaser dollars speak loudly and often support institutions that attack Asian men. Asian men, keep your friends close, and…well, at least know who doesn’t have your back.
That’s why we need people like URB4N and other bigWOWO readers to voice their opinions. If anyone else wants to sound off, feel free to do it here. We always have room for more podcasts too.
Edit 05/05/09: After the podcast, URB4N referenced this article as one he appreciated: Karen Pyke. For those who heard me talk about the Tierney blog, you can find the article here.
Related posts:
Good podcast. Urb4n, I envy you’re ability to speak so clearly. And Byron, I commend the points you raised in contrast. Right as I was thinking those points, BAM, Byron, lol.
I think a lot of the different perspectives and experiences we have aren’t as purely cultural as they are subcultural. Some scenes embrace equality and some scenes don’t (the latter often reflects the reality of broader global problems.) I see some groups of men and women who are more comfortable with culturally-and-visually-homogenous friends and lovers, some groups more comfortable with friends and lovers from a different heritage than themselves, and others who are just very apathetic in general to visual and ancestral differences. I’ve seen such groups with every skin tone.
In trying to better understand your points of view on the subject, I was left wondering a few things, if you have time and interest in chiming in.
1. In your perspective, is it possible for an Asian woman to be supportive of Asian men even if they are dating someone not of Asian descent? Like, standing for Asian causes, supporting Asian events, etc, while dating whatever individual they feel the most chemistry with?
2. What do you think should take priority – women dating individuals who they connect with best, or dating based on social fairness and cultural solidarity?
3. I think Urb4n mentioned Asian women avoiding Asian men over the stereotype (if you’d use that word) of Asian men lacking confidence and security. Because I choose to indulge in scenes like dancing and DJing and liberal art circles, which involve so many bold expressive individuals that embrace equality as an ideal, I usually see that stereotype defied instead of committed, but I can believe what you say in the broader American experience – I know my chosen bubbles are a bit futurist, and not reflective of the world at large. From my vantage point, I have heard from a few Asian women that they are turned off by the more militant expectation from certain circles of Asian men who think Asian women should only date Asian men. What are your opinions on women who might have this reaction?
I think Urban raised a good point in saying trends tend to be different depending on place, and that relativity should be kept in mind.
But I also really do think things are often as subcultural as cultural. Which makes sense, because it’s about people choosing their ideals, versus accepting traditional ideals. Either case could have good or bad results; it’s all in the context. I have plenty of friends whose other friends and lovers are mainly all within their ethnic community – and plenty of friends with equally diverse friends and lovers, which tend to be the main squad I’m part of. And the views and philosophies of all those people are shaped not by their skin tone but by the factors they identify with foremost – whether it’s cultural and heritage, art, politics, sexuality, whatever they are into the most.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to do podcasts, guys.
Byron,
This is the online research website I was talking to you about.
http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/0/9/4/3/p109437_index.html#get_document
Micah, to answer your question #1, I know or am aware of one who is active in Asian American affairs. I met her many years ago at an Asian American Bar Association function (I’m not a lawyer, btw). Francey Lim Youngberg, a DC attorney, is married to a white guy. She is involved in trying to fight the DC city council’s decision to close the Office of Asian and Pacific Islander Affairs.
so yeah, it’s possible, it does exist. But I’m not sure what you actually mean by support. I don’t know to what extent her activism is geared specifically towards Asian American men.
uRB4N, you raise many good points. it’s late and am not thinking so coherently, but one salient point you made that I completely agree with is that AA men need to work on expanding their career choices. It’s great to be smart enough to get into engineering, but why not couple that with a major in business? Partner up that great science background with something else and you can be a pretty smart AND powerful fucking guy outside the science field.
I’m in federal law enforcement and I’m pretty damn rare for my job series—I do operation support but I’m not the guy in the lab doing the forensics and shit like that, which is how most of us are portrayed on these cop shows. I’m doing operational TACTICAL support to investigations. But I’m one of maybe three or four Asian males in my job series; and there’s a handful of Asian females, maybe a little more in my agency. And I wish we had more Asians in federal law enforcement because I know we can do this job and do it really well. Especially federal agents. I know of two Asian American agents who both had backgrounds in the sciences. One was a chemist and the other was involved in bio-engineering stuff or some shit like that.
And the point being is that I have an unconventional job and it’s not what people might expect. That breaks the stereotype of anyone meeting me for the first time who might judge me on my appearance and think, “computer guy” or “engineering type”. Not that there’s anything inherently wrong with those careers, but we can be and ARE so much more than that.
You know, as a computer guy who worked with these machines since I was 12, I thought I was getting into a career that I could enjoy and get good at. Now I see that I’m just a walking stereotype, and a failure of Asian masculinity. I’m so sorry guys. If I get a white girlfriend, would that atone for my sins?
I have to concur with Leon’s sarcasm here. While I’m all in favor for these sorts of discussions, the one thread which seems to reoccur which I dislike is, “What can Asian men do to better the situation?” Too often this question leads to answers like dress better, work out, or, in this case, pursue a “cooler” career.
Suggestions such as these muddle reality by haphazardly implying that Asian men are bringing their misfortune upon themselves. That, of course, is ludicrous. One of my favorite comments was someone saying, “Suggesting that Asian men are somehow at fault for their own romantic shortcomings is like suggesting that Asian women are somehow at fault for their own fetishization.” There are millions of white men who are poorly dressed, skinny, working in medicine or technology, and are romantically successful. The difference is that these attributes are not associated with their race. That’s not the case with us.
There’s nothing wrong with having any of those characteristics. And there’s certainly nothing wrong with being Asian. Believing that you have to change yourself when no one else does is believing that you have to compensate for your race. That’s just sad and wrong, though I certainly sympathize with people who think that way since I know I did.
The bottom line is that if Asian men want to “improve the situation,” it does not start with us, or Asian women for that matter. We’re victims of circumstances, and Asian women are caught up in the circumstances just like all other women. To “improve the situation,” we need to change the circumstances.
URB4N:
Thanks for the link. I actually HAVE seen that article before–I was thinking of something else when you mentioned it. I will put that into the post itself, along with my own link to the $24,000 statistic I posted.
Micah,
I know you’re talking to URB4N, but if you’re interested, check out my comments under this post, starting at comment #21.
Mojo,
I think it’s cool that you’re in federal law enforcement. I appreciated the posts you made about guns. It’s awesome and EMPOWERING when I hear opinions from Asian American men who are in the industries/areas that we discuss.
Leon and Etain:
For the record, I’m in sales myself, but if I had the mathematical ability to do engineering, I would probably do that instead. It’s my own personality to be somewhat introverted, so I’m probably the stereotype too.
At the same time, I totally support investment bankers like URB4N, law enforcement people like Alpha and Mojo, engineers like Leon, and teachers like Etain.
Haha…I’m kicking myself right now and wishing I had invented youtube…
Etain got it right on the money. I apologize for resorting to sarcasm there, but I have seen this “solution” popped up one too many times in discussions that try to “fix” the Asian masculinity image. If you want to help the geek Asian (since I doubt the jocks need much help socially), a good start would be to stop making them feel ashamed of who they are. If you think it’s hard to be an Asian man, imagine how marginalized the Asian geek feels finding that he embodies some of the stereotypes the community loves to hate. Deriding the geeks for their choices in life is like a kid who gets picked on at school, so he feels powerless and angry and vents it by picking on his little brother at home.
If you want to instill some sense of responsibility and compassion in the bigger kid (the jock), one way could be to get him to help the little brother (geek) in positive ways. That doesn’t mean holding his hand and treating him like a kid. More like stop blaming him for the Asian stereotypes, make him a part of the struggle, help him feel confident. Real confidence comes from being comfortable with who you are, and not trying to fit some cookie cutter image of Asian masculinity (which is what PUAs try to do, and that is why they fail).
After all, it seems like Hollywood has no problem celebrating white geeks. Neo is a major geek, and he kicks ass, saves the world AND gets the girl. White criminals are portrayed as sexy. But Asians are just buck tooth, thick glasses, and kung-fu kicks. Like Etain said, the problem lies not with us but with the powers that be.
if you’re in a stereotypical field, then there’s nothing wrong with that. you can always subvert stereotypes in other ways. Doing a 180 just makes you 2 dimensional. Look at Masi Oka: he takes a stereotype and breathed some depth into it.
being Alpha has more to do with being comfortable in your own skin and doing what you want to do within reason.
I have to say that I know plenty of Asian men griping about AF/WM pairings. You don’t have to pry it out of them.
But I think things are changing, at least in the Bay Area. I’ve consistently noticed more AM/WF pairings in our area, not that this is supposed to be the be all, end all. The fact of the matter is that if you are a good catch as a male, then chances are you taken, whether by an Asian female or non-Asian female.
And yes there are tons of Asian men in Alpha roles here in the Bay Area, such as law enforcement and emergency services. you can’t be a wuss and be in law enforcement.
Leon and Etain – you’re right, there’s nothing wrong with those chosen fields and I do see your point of view. There are plenty of geeky white nerdy types as well and they DO get stigmatized too. I got stereotyped in college because I lived with a bunch of engineering majors in my junior year, lot of people assumed I was one too—but I was a liberal arts major. My roomies were white and black and their friends were engineering students as well but the difference was that their nerdiness was minimal. In other words, they were fairly well rounded. We went to the keg parties, football and basketball games and all that kind of stuff.
And yeah, the deck may be stacked against some of us but I try not to dwell too much on those social dynamics. You and I both know they exist for us but I try not to let it deter me from doing what I want to do. And in being yourself, you just have to hope that people see your humanity. I don’t know if we, as a collective, can do anything to change the situation dynamics we sometimes find ourselves in. Discussion is always a good start because sooner or later, our voices will be heard. But as far as affecting wholesale change of people’s attitudes or mindset? I dunno. Unless there was a uniformity of consciousness and purpose to rally around the Asian Al Sharpton and go hold press conferences and demonstrate in huge numbers against offending parties.
I just feel that change starts with oneself and it slowly begins one step at a time, beginning with yourself and then continuing with those you come into contact with.
And like Alpha says, start with being comfortable in your own skin. I don’t think it’s good to carry this weight of self consciousness around on one’s shoulders. That’s why I say I try not to dwell on those negative social dynamics. I try not to view ourselves as “victims of circumstances”. I’d much rather be pro-active and change my circumstances instead of trying to change the collective set of circumstances. I think it differs for each person, perhaps.
Alpha – I was out in SF not too long ago for work and really dug going to the Burton Federal Building to report to our office there and seeing a lot of faces that looked like mine. It was awesome. I don’t see that here in DC. And I was shocked to see the number of Asian female agents too. A lot of them were really pretty. AND smart.
Mojorider, it’s always great to hear stories of my fellow Asian brothers who overcome social barriers and pursue what they want. Even though I’m a pretty good with technical computer stuff, I studied media arts to pursue a career in graphics design (my IT skills are self-taught). So, my first statement of me being a computer guy is a lie, but given how I’m constantly the only person in the firm who knows how to fix these things and called upon to do so, I feel like I might as well be a full time IT. Being Asian in college, people usually automatically assume that I was in engineering and expressed surprise that I was an arts major, even when they see me carrying that giant case of art supplies. And I was far from the nice, studious Asian nerd. I partied and got into all kinds of trouble.
I agree that for Asian Americans, especially AA men, our best course of action right now is probably to just cultivate the individuals and become good examples ourselves. There’s really not much we can do given how little exposure we get in the media. As for you guys here, my hat’s off to you for aggressively pursuing careers outside the normal “safety zone” of Asian Americans. I agree with URB4N that the best way to counter negative images is with positive images.
Sometimes I feel like the Asian American community is like that dismembered snake in the famous Join or Die picture by Benjamin Franklin. Instead of states, each piece of this snake represents all the different Asian cultures, and Asian men and women.
Mojo,
You might have worked with an agent that I know (also Asian male, BTW). If you’re providing tactical support for special agents, then you might have helped him serve a search warrant or arrest warrant.
It’s funny that you mention how your fellow LEO’s were former engineers, chemists, etc. I know of other Asian law enforcement who had interesting backgrounds. One was an engineer, one used to work for Charles Schwab and made bank. There’s another guy I know who produced documentary films. And another guy who used to be an Asian American Studies instructor.
I think the common factor for all of us left a career field to go into law enforcement is that we wanted our work to be much more purposeful and meaningful.
Great podcast.
Etain is right on the money,you cant attack the victim of the stereotype, just the stereotype itself/ or the idiots who create and perpetuate it.
People should just be themselves as they are, develope their own personality, define their own identities, not always worried about what others think. Cos thats just as bad when people try change in order to defy a stereotype, actually you are still under the control of the people who created the stereotype. And you can never really be free!
Once again, excellent podcast!!!
Leon – that’s awesome that you’re demonstrating that you have high value to your firm. I just hope that you’re getting compensated in some form for the extra work that you do. I mean, really. What the hell is your systems manager doing? YOU should be getting extra pay for helping out on all the tech problems in your firm’s network. I’m also pleased to know that you raised a little hell too in college! Life is to be lived, have some fun before they shovel dirt on your face. I guess as AA’s, we’re found in all parts of the spectrum. Some are doing well, some are okay, some seem to be really affected by these social dynamics. Like uRB4N says, the situational dynamics and trends are different dependent upon locality. Some locales may be better, some worse. I guess the best thing we can do is to put ourselves in the best situations to succeed in any aspect in life.
Alpha – maybe I ran into your buddy. I was working with the IRS and DEA folks out in SF. We worked with a really cool and great Asian IRS agent. I was there to help install a pole camera and assist with some electronic surveillance stuff and sit in on some debriefings. And yeah, I think my fellow Asian LEOs went into being a gun-toter because they got bored doing the forensics and lab work, and they KNEW they could also be good agents because they were smarter than the knuckle dragging element we sometimes get in our agency. No doubt, we can make a difference and lead an interesting, meaningful life at the same time.
Anna – I agree, you have to be who you are and not worry about what other people think. I sometimes wonder if I, myself, get a little too defensive or wary at times. One time, I had a business trip to the deep South and I was a little concerned as to how people in Oxford, MS were going to react to me, given that I doubt many of them have had any contacts with Asian Americans. Once I got there, I found out that it was a college town and folks were really receptive to me. People were super friendly and everyone treated me with respect. I didn’t get any of that, “Oh, you speak such good English” stuff. Now if they said anyting about me behind my back is another story, but I was treated like anyone else. So, all of this was built up inside my OWN head, pre-judging these folks from the South. like you said, you just have to be yourself and not worry. Worry about the bad shit when it actually happens.
Peace everyone,
Mojo
Actually, the more i listen to this podcast, the more i feel like URB4N is blaming……but blaming on the wrong people. If an asian woman grows up in a caucasian dominated country and is subject to all the euro/caucasian centrism inherent in Caucasian media and culture, then its easy to become brainwashed and adopt the racist values that are being propagated everyday in every advertisement, movie, music, t.v shows, it enters the subconsciousness, its very hard to even realise whats going on because it is normalised. White beauty is normalised by the dominant white culture.It becomes the standard. The psychological research has shown that its really hard to exercise “free will” when your subconsciousness has been bombarded with all these messages that are working against your own self interest.
The real enemy is not Asian women, they are victims of the system of racial privilege and power structure just like Asian men, In Fact, the real enemy are those who created the discriminatory social system, where value is inherently placed on race/gender.
And also, who says that asian males dating non asian women is going to solve the problem of discrimination? For example look at Black Males in the U.S, they are some of the most masculine and sexualised ethnic groups by the dominant media, yet they have one of the highest imprison rates in proportion of their population in the U.S! the legal system and sociopolitical situation is still has strong discrimination against them, and of black people in general. You cant F#k your way to equality, when the White owners f#cked their black slaves, was that equality? Black slaves were still slaves, whether they f#cked a white person or not, man or woman.
So because white males F*ck asian females, then asian males f*ck white females, thats supposed to reduce racial discrimination how? the socio-political power structure that elevates one ethnic group is still in place! In fact, if asian males start placing higher value on non asian women to date them, isnt that EXACTLY the same as the Asian women who place higher value on non asian men for dates?
The whole logic of problem solving is absurd…..and it just seems like it ends in a blamefest, while the people at the top laugh.
At the end of the day, Asian male and Asian females are still “less” in the eyes of the dominant ethnic group, asian females arent glorified, they are dehumanised into sexualised pieces of meat, in the tradition of colonialism/imperialism, while asian males arent glorified, they are emasculated and written off so that they wont represent a direct threat to those in power. In the end, whether male or female, asians are getting f*cked by “the man” but instead of just writing off the “sellouts”(whether male OR female) and doing our own thing, we are hating on each other and blaming each other for the racial discrimination imposed on us. It just reeks of self loathing and internalised self hatred.
Who cares if asian men/women date outside? if an asian girl doesnt want to date asian because of internalised self hatred, would you even want to date her anyway? and pass this insecurity onto your kids? NO WAY!! If an Asian male dates non asian cause he wants to somehow make things equal with “the man” would any asian girl want to date him anyway??? of course not!!! This is confusion and smoke and mirrors.
Why blame each other? why not blame the people in charge who is trying to divide and conquer? Asians /AzNs should forget about the “sellouts”, they are nothing more than confused victims of the system(both men AND women) and just concentrate on dating other Asians/or who they want.
Either way, therare separate issues, which you cant really address without seeing clearly
Gendered racism
Racism
Patriarchy
Racialised Patriarchy
Colonialism
the main issue is racism (and i include colonialism as a part of racism), patriarchy is another issue, which has been mixed in too, but its totally absurd to think that f*cking a white chick will make an Asian man equal in the eyes of “whites” nah, dont think so, you are nothing more than a plaything, just like asian females to white males!!!
ANYWAY,
but seriously Awesome Podcast!!!!
I’m at the office so this will be short. I think comments are focusing on one point (employment) and using that to invalidity the entire argument. We seem very focused on blaming external forces which we cannot control well. Is there any doubt that external circumstances has placed us where we are? No, but I almost never hear any self reflection? On top of that, alot of the arguments posted are how things “should” be, not how things actually “are.”
I never added that I was in the IT field for about 3-4 years before going into finance. If you’re confident while being in IT, that’s great. I reason why I brought up my area of employment was to illustrate that the environment forces you to excel and push to the top to survive whereas many Asian heavy fields does not.
I always view problems as 50/50. It’s both white society’s fault and Asian America. What I am asking is if we’ve done everything we can because I don’t think so.
In personal reflection, Asian women who date and marry out do not support Asian men. Here’s the reason why: Asian male emasculation is one of the primary concerns of Asian America. When an Asian woman dates and marries out, it sends a clear signal and directly promotes this emasculation.
It’s impossible for me to take a PETA member seriously when they rail about the evils of the meat industry but then goes home to eat hamburgers followed by the explanation that what she does in her private life is up to her. How can someone possible have confidence in you? Your activism and actions are disconnected.
Here’s the kicker though; I don’t *care* if Asian women don’t support Asian men. At least acknowledge the logical disconnect and stop trying to play yourselves up as being supportive so I don’t need to count on you for help.
I never said that dating white women will solve racism against Asian men but rather it would help fight the the asexual stereotype. It shows that Asian men can play on the same level and directly fights the white patriarchal structure. Asian women dating white men enforces the white patriarchal structure. If you look at the link I posted, there is research to prove that a great deal of Asian women are enforcers of Asian male stereotypes.
If Asian women see more white women dating Asian men, it proves to them that their views are incorrect and flawed as worst. It might convince them to seek out Asian men at best. Another point, like I said in the podcast, Asian women view Asian men as a free option. Once this free option dwindles, their leveraged attitudes will decrease with it. It’s like a dog with two bones; it can’t stand to give up either one.
Lastly, it has additional effects which I’ve seen personally. My cousins and I are all involved with non-Asian women. This, in turn, has shattered the idea that white women won’t date Asian men which gives them a huge self confidence boost when approaching white women. Like it or not, a good deal of self confidence for a guy comes from his attractiveness to women.
Again, logic: Seeing so many Asian women with white men hurts self confidence. Seeing Asian men with white women helps self confidence.
As far as opinions, I’m staying out of this one (or will try), lol.
But I do have a question from another angle, if any one here would share their opinions. So far we’ve been looking at it more from society’s point-of-view, and not as much the couples’ and their families.
Do you think that there’s instances when inter-racial dating can provide opportunities for learning and understanding of different cultural traditions and heritages between families and groups of friends? Do you think it has the potential to open the eyes of some family members or friends who might not have much multicultural experience?
Also, it seems some individuals from both white and minority backgrounds are more interested in abandoning traditional identity in favor of a melting pot subculture, and others are more focused on emphasizing and preserving their cultural identity and heritage. Do you think there’s room for both of these mindsets? And do you think both of these mindsets should be respected more-or-less equally, or is one admirable and the other something to be disdained?
“Do you think that there’s instances when inter-racial dating can provide opportunities for learning and understanding of different cultural traditions and heritages between families and groups of friends?”
Yes.
However, let me just preface it with a statement. It’s hard to create cross-cultural understanding when there’s a racial hierarchy in which the concerns of entire communities are trampled on. This is the crux of the Orientalism we’ve been describing. Sure, some people will smile and be totally oblivious to what is going on. But it’s not really “learning” or “understanding” unless both parties can speak freely.
Leon, Mojo, and everyone else,
Thanks for the great comments!
Actually, that would also make an interesting podcast–”how we can help each other.” After all, even as Brooks describes the situation in Washington, “geeks” and “jocks” rely on each other. How can Asian Americans do the same?
(This is only really a half-accurate title, since it sounds like everyone here did the party route in college and beyond.)
“Do you think that there’s instances when inter-racial dating can provide opportunities for learning and understanding of different cultural traditions and heritages between families and groups of friends? Do you think it has the potential to open the eyes of some family members or friends who might not have much multicultural experience?”
In general it’s easier when there doesn’t exist a racial hierarchy. You won’t get real “learning” or “understanding” when institutions shape the minority dialogue.
Sorry for the double/triple posting. I’m also posting from work…
uRB4N….
so your saying that to defeat white male racist patriarchy, asian men have assimilate into it by having sex with white women? uhh…okaaay. I just agree to disagree on that one.
micah….
what are you talking about? do you think that euro americans abandoned their traditional culture when they went to America? For gods sake, the national language of the U.S is english! They just made euro culture “American” and in a vein of ethno-nationalism made it the standard.
For example when a person of Korean descent is born in U.S and eats kimchi and takes off his shoes entering the house, eating rice etc…is that “traditional” culture? well when caucasian americans speak english, eat potatos, etc, is that “traditional”? or is that just “american” see the difference?
Both are already American culture, just for the fact that he is american, they grew up in america,it takes place on american soil, it is american.
The difference is the power and value, not “tradition”, the majority has defined what is “traditional” and what is modern “american” culture. But in reality, asian americans should redefine the meaning of american culture instead of just accepting the definition placed on them.
Jaehwan….
I think i’ve already told you jaehwan that i’m a student right? my major is Psychology, and the psychology of prejudice and discrimination and its effects—its a really large field in psychology!
Are you familiar with the work of Gordon Allport? especially his studies in 1954?
He was a famous psychologist who studied prejudice and discrimination, one of the pioneers in that field. What you said about needing racial equality before any beneficial and meaningful interaction can takes place is also what he found out through his research. There are 4 conditions that have to be met, before interaction can be meaningful and beneficial for both parties in the longterm. One of those is equality. His research discovered that when there was no equality, then the interaction was harmful and it raised many more problems……
No, that’s not what I’m saying.
What I stating is that this country is dominated by white patriarchal control which has placed Asian men in a specific position regarding their sexuality (read: white women are off limits). Thus, when Asian men actually pursue and succeed in what is deemed by white control to be wrong, they are confronting it.
In turn, white men have attacked Asian men using Asian women as a tool to do so. Therefore, when Asian women date/marry white men, they are validating and participating in hammering down Asian men as well as reinforcing the white patriarchal structure.
Off topic a bit: It’s interesting to note that the emasculation of Asian men didn’t start until recently. During the mid 1800s, Chinese men were actually portrayed as sexual predators of white women much like how African American are portrayed now. It wasn’t until white women started seeing African American men as potential suitors that white men started feeling threatened. Thus, they found someone else to attack; Asian men.
Also, if we’re going to disagree with someone, let’s also try to adopt a habit of explaining why it’s wrong and what a better solution might be followed with an explanation why.
Many times, I just hear a “well, everyone knows that’s wrong” response or one of it’s many derivatives.
URB4N, i already explained in length in the post on May 6th of this comment section. Maybe you could read it again, if you didnt already, my position is clear there, and why that is my position, its all there. Wish you luck!,
Cool, thanks Anna. I understand what your saying about American custom being built upon European language and philosophies, and a national history of development and domination by wealthy folks with white skin. And there’s a lot of unfairness going on today, much of it the continuation of philosophies from the “founding” power structure handed down to the current power structure. I guess what I’m trying to express is that despite a past that can’t be changed (you heard me right John Connor!), there are some individuals that have this sense of “white pride” or pride in their ancestry (many groups of these people often ignore and dismiss all the tragic bits of history), and probably a few individuals that have “white shame” (who focus on all the bad bits exclusively). But then you have individuals that find it silly to take pride or shame in things they personally have or had no control over. And even though they might be aware of society’s ill and take or fail to take action to help out, those individuals just take responsibility, glory and shame, for only those things they do personally.
I see where Byron might say here: that even if I reject (as a liberal artist or philosophical outcast) the dominating philosophies of America (those founded on Western ideas), I was never faced with a dilemma that’s equivalent to your own. Because I’m in a situation where the American mainstream is considered my cultural identity by a lot of other people. Whereas the mainstream is not considered your cultural identity by a lot of people. So to some audiences, me embracing the mainstream would be very different than you embracing the mainstream. Because one could be considered embracing native culture, and the other would be considered to be abandoning native culture? Am I on to anything? Lol. I’m not smart enough for this. All I know is there’s some white folks (often with a R in front of their name) who are worried about ‘other’ cultures diluting their cultural identity and mainstream American power structure, and there are some non-white folks worried about the mainstream diluting their cultural identity and values/ideals. But there’s also folks of all skin tones who are down to throw all that away (without forgetting the lessons of history), whether they currently have a ‘social advantage or disadvantage’, and forge a new future with new ideals put forth by everyone equally. They’d rather play with each other than fight each other. They’d rather make sweet sweet love than mean mean war. And they don’t really care about privilege or unfair advantage as much as they do about other human beings.
The two practical outcomes for a better America seem to be:
1.Embracing each other equally and providing equal resources, while celebrating our differences. Sharing and educating people about diverse cultures. Creating a society of pluralism and appreciation. I love this approach – but it’s bound to have some missteps, and result in some bastardizations here and there – that is the price. Is it worth the end result?
or
2. Comparing and contrasting cultural traits and values until we can cross-reference a universal set of ideals, and make that the new standard culture. Abandon both mainstream (Eurocentric) and non-mainstream traditions, in favor of a new approach that embraces our universal similarities. For this to work perfectly, we have to first make sure everyone is starting with equal opportunity. If we can make it work, is it worth losing those unique cultures (all of them, mainstream or no) for a fair and equal world?
In either case, I’d still get to rock out with friends and lovers of all geographical origins. But what do you think of those ideas? And do you have any other ideas that could work instead to create a more ideal America?
(I know this is kinda off topic, but I’m really interested in trying to better understand your POV’s, if you’ll have sympathy for that.)
From what I skimmed from your posts Anna you got it right in your May 6th post; except for this being an awesome podcast.
Anna,
“Are you familiar with the work of Gordon Allport? especially his studies in 1954?
He was a famous psychologist who studied prejudice and discrimination, one of the pioneers in that field. What you said about needing racial equality before any beneficial and meaningful interaction can takes place is also what he found out through his research.
I’m not, but now I’m interested!
This part of this discussion reminds me a bit of the Rosie O’Donnell defense after she got called on her “ching chong” remark. She excused herself by saying something along the lines of, “but I spoke to my hairdresser and she wasn’t offended.”
It’s the same thing in this discussion. How can anyone claim true learning and understanding when there’s such a huge gap in opportunity and learning between one race and another?
Some people say that their IRs are exceptions. I think it’s a bit of a dicey claim, given the fact that we all live in the same society where the same stratification exists. It’s fine to love someone of a different race, but I think we all have to acknowledge the societal forces which exist along the lines of race.
Yep, you should check him out Jaehwan.Its pretty weird that he did his resaerch over 50 years ago, and its still some of the best out there, plus the issues he was researching are still so relevant today.
Anyway, i’ll email you some of his papers if you want. Gordon Allport is to prejudice in Psychology as Edward Said is to Orientalism in Post-colonial studies.
All I know is there’s some white folks (often with a R in front of their name) who are worried about ‘other’ cultures diluting their cultural identity and mainstream American power structure, and there are some non-white folks worried about the mainstream diluting their cultural identity and values/ideals. But there’s also folks of all skin tones who are down to throw all that away (without forgetting the lessons of history), whether they currently have a ’social advantage or disadvantage’, and forge a new future with new ideals put forth by everyone equally. They’d rather play with each other than fight each other. They’d rather make sweet sweet love than mean mean war. And they don’t really care about privilege or unfair advantage as much as they do about other human beings.
The two practical outcomes for a better America seem to be:
1.Embracing each other equally and providing equal resources, while celebrating our differences. Sharing and educating people about diverse cultures. Creating a society of pluralism and appreciation. I love this approach – but it’s bound to have some missteps, and result in some bastardizations here and there – that is the price. Is it worth the end result?
or
2. Comparing and contrasting cultural traits and values until we can cross-reference a universal set of ideals, and make that the new standard culture. Abandon both mainstream (Eurocentric) and non-mainstream traditions, in favor of a new approach that embraces our universal similarities. For this to work perfectly, we have to first make sure everyone is starting with equal opportunity. If we can make it work, is it worth losing those unique cultures (all of them, mainstream or no) for a fair and equal world?
Your “solution” is not a new or original idea. In fact, it’s an old tired one, and what America already promotes ad nauseum.
It’s called Liberal Pluralism.
Liberal Pluralism sounds wonderful in its pretty rhetoric, but in practice, it’s just a way to reinforce and maintain White dominance–albeit with a more progressive humanist veneer:
“I don’t see race. We are all just human. I am individual. Let’s forget about our differences, get over the issue of privilege and power, and embrace our universal traditions and just hold hands and love each other.” Blah, blah, blah.
This is KumbayaSpeak.
It’s a feel-good lie.
A con man’s spiel.
Sugarcoated poison.
And it’s disingenuous in reality.
In general, this kind of Liberal Pluralist “solution” is really about MANIPULATING a noble sentiment (i.e. common humanity) and using it to maintain inequality and dominance.
In many ways, this perspective is like American propaganda about Democracy and Freedom.
Who wouldn’t support democracy, freedom, or some pluralist ideal about universal humanism?
But the devil is always in the detail.
The concrete application of these so-called ideals is anything but benign.
In terms of race, for example, see America’s system of Chattel Slavery, Jim Crow Apartheid, or the current “Post-Racial” racism.
America has raised this tactic to an art form: The ability to pervert and manipulate a noble political idea BUT only to maintain an ignoble political system in practice.
Again, Tim Wise talks about these issues. In particular, go to 14:30 in the video, where he challenges the Liberal Colorlind model of race relations:
Tim Wise on White Privilege
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UJlNRODZHA
Certainly I’m for Asian men dating outside the race and have done so almost exclusively myself, not because I wanted to prove a point but because I couldn’t see any rational reason not to do so, but does anyone see the inherent dehumanizing sexism in using non-Asian women (and white women in particular) as tools to balance a statistic? What difference is there between using women as “fuck-holes” and using them to even out a dating disparity? There is no difference and I’m surprised that people would seriously consider that as a legitimate course of action.
just a quick thought here since I’m at work. The discussion has turned now towards relationship aspects. Setting aside the racial politics, one thing that comes to mind about in or out-dating is compatibility. On some level, I’ve found that race doesn’t matter if you find someone that is a really good match for you. I’ve dated some Asian girls and got absolutely nowhere because we just had no common interests outside of being Asian. I’ve dated white girls, a few hispanics, and found we had a lot of similar interests and that made for some fun times.
And now getting back to the racial politics and what not, I do find it harder for me to find Asian girls to date. I dunno if it’s because the pool of availability is smaller than if I were in NYC or LA or something, but I also suspect some of it is due to the social dynamic of some Asian women’s preference for dating white dudes.
Larry,
what’s the good solution? How would you do it? What do you think needs to be done to make the world good?
No surprised; we’re off to not listening to someone else’s argument because it doesn’t conform to what is already existing in your head.
You’re constantly stating only two points: “Asian men can’t screw racism away” and “Environment is partly to blame.” Both true. Not denying that.
I’m saying “Asian male confidence is hindered by Asian female interracial dating and marriage” and “Asian men who date out will raise confidence of other Asian men.”
Terri, I’m not saying that white women should be “used” for anything. What I *am* saying is that when Asian men who date and marry outside their race more often, it reinforces self confidence and goes against social rules that have been set forth on Asian men.
Like I said in the podcost, I’ve spoken to Meg a few times on this topic and many of her female friends. None of them feel used at all; in fact, they sympathize with Asian men. The white guys (Meg’s brother, personal friends) I’ve spoken to all agree that it makes logical sense. In fact, it was a white guy that gave me some ideas on how deep the resentment can go and cause internal social conflict within Asian America.
Look, I’m perfectly fine with your opinion. However, I have personally seen the change in attitude and confidence from Asian men. I didn’t agree to participate in this podcast to convince anyone nor do I care. I have better things to do in my spare time.
You do what you think is right and I’ll do what I think is right. I’m big picture oriented and couldn’t care less on what the process is. You seem to be so mired in process that nothing ever gets done. Another problem the Asian community seems to have.
Good luck to you.
Interesting discussion, everyone. This is a big topic, so I posted some thoughts on the front page.
http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/05/women-hold-up-half-the-sky/
If I could answer the “results” question in three words, it would be: “institutions, institutions, institutions.”
Wowee, wowee, WTF! 36 comments…most compelling post yet. Deconstructing interracial relationships FTW! Haha! Sorry nothing of value to say. Just here to say WTF! So WTF!
I actually agree with URB4N that the AA community gets mired in process. The Asian Playboy has stated on his website that (and I paraphrase) Asian males raised in Asia generally have fewer dating issues than Asian males raised in the U.S because they didn’t grow up being called a chink throughout most of their childhood. Regardless of one’s opinion of PUAs and the Asian Playboy you have to acknowledge how insightful those words are (bear in mind that I am not associated with PUA or Asian Playboy and never have been).
As an illustration of how we skew priorities let’s just look at the recent posts on this blog and how it relates to what the Asian Playboy says. Recently, we’ve had two posts dealing with an Asian boy who is being charged for defending himself against a racial attack. Those two posts have received a total of 22 comments, 7 of which come from non-Asians. This IR post has (at the time of writing) 36 and counting. Of course, this is a small sample size yet it does accurately reflect the fact that whenever IR is bought up on the internet or even in our day to day interactions, Asians might generally have much more to say about it than almost anything else.
This is sad because what has happened to the Asian kid in Canada has echoes of a lynching, or at least an attempt at institutional intimidation. Otherwise, why haven’t both kids been charged by the authorities? With this is mind the IR debate seems somewhat petty by comparison. This is even more apparent when one considers that the experience of the Asian kid in Canada is by no means unusual for Asian kids in the U.S. There have been studies and reports that suggest that Asian kids are 3 times more likely to be bullied and physically attacked in racially biased incidents and that racial attacks against Asian children are increasing.
It has been nice to see the protests in support of the Asian kid but in reality these kinds of protests need to be repeated in schools throughout the U.S and the fact that we haven’t as a community tried to advocate for this is more detrimental to the image of Asians and the self-image of Asian men than the sight of an Asian woman with a white man could ever be. We seem to be ignoring the fact that we aren’t really doing a whole lot to defend young Asian boys from the process of emasculation in our schools, in fact as a community we seem oblivious to its occurrence. Yet, Asian kids being beaten and bullied doesn’t piss us off as much as IR which is ironic because it seems to me that we won’t solve the latter issue without first addressing the former and if we did address the former then the latter might well resolve itself .
I do acknowledge that IR is a very painful and personal subject for many Asian men, and this is understandable because I know that some Asian women do throw their disdain for Asian men in our faces. I also agree that Asian men should date out more and that this would build confidence, but that’s only a partial solution. Is it possible that if we, as a community of Asian men, put our time and effort into addressing the emasculation and dehumanization experienced by Asian boys in the school system and society in general that they will be less likely to grow into diffident young men with poor self-image? Wouldn’t that give Asian guys the foundation upon which to grow into attractive, balanced people that are viewed as serious potential partners for women of all kinds? Certainly, encouraging Asian men to get out and date is important, and even the Asian PUAs have something to offer, but that is only part of the solution.
http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=88f6285f9901d688092979ac6831e221
http://www.aaldef.org/article.php?article_id=348
http://www.asianweek.com/2008/05/29/addressing-school-violence/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/13/AR2005111300385.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/02/nyregion/city-to-help-curb-harassment-of-asian-students-at-high-school.html?scp=1&sq=Asian%20students%20harassed&st=cse
http://www.asian-nation.org/headlines/2006/09/asian-american-students-still-deal-with-violence/
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/02/29/2008-02-29_student_charged_in_brassknuckle_beating_.html
http://www.aacre.org/resources/AB394_Fact_Sheet.pdf
It’s a big problem.
Good observations, Terri. Thanks for the links too. I agree with just about everything you said (though to give credit where credit is due, Frank Chin mentioned that difference between Asian Asian and Asian American men thirty-five years ago).
By the way, check out TMM’s post on this:
http://minoritymilitant.blogspot.com/2009/05/my-ir-post-asian-men-and-all-kinds-of.html
TMM is a cool guy if I recall correctly but I still have yet to understand what his long posts are driving at. I’ve never seen someone post such a long entry and not really explain anything at all.
Someone mind translating for me?
URB4N,
That’s tough talk for a salesman that took Better Asian Man classes to learn how to pick up women. Since you like to invoke my name so much, I just thought maybe I’d stop by and set your silly Asian ass straight. After hearing this podcast — and I really, really refrained from criticizing you — you are as silly as the whole BAM entity. Who sent you? William? Please don’t act like you don’t know who BAM is. I’ve never heard someone so confident and self-assured about nothing. If only you knew a little bit of Asian American history and had an ounce of modesty in you, you probably wouldn’t have had to take those classes. It would’ve saved you a few hundred bones.
I’ve never heard anyone pull so many numbers out of his ass. Why are we even listening to an Asian guy bragging about dating White women? Shouldn’t we be questioning why this guy is even credible? I mean, you know, he just learned to pick up women. The motherfucker is a joke — an Asian joke at that.
BTW, as for the previous podcast, if anyone ever told me I was acting like a “Chinaman,” I’d have him ringed by the neck so fucking fast it wouldn’t be funny. But that’s just me.
though to give credit where credit is due, Frank Chin mentioned that difference between Asian Asian and Asian American men thirty-five years ago
A good illustration from Asian-American literature of differences in sexuality between American raised Asian men and those raised in Asia can be found in America is in the Heart by Carlos Bulosan. Although not about IR, the narrative makes repeated references to inter-racial relationships between Filipino men and white women in pre-war America.
What is interesting is that despite laws forbidding these relationships,stereotypes that demeaned Filpinos, and extreme racism, Bulosan never relates any hint that he or any other Filipino in the account ever had the feeling of being emasculated to the point that they wouldn’t or couldn’t find sexual partners. If fact, one could infer from the narrative that the sexuality of the Filipno migrants at that time was so strong that they were able to attract women despite negative and potentially life threatening social repurcussions.
The point is, that none of the Filipno migrants that Bulosan writes about grew up being racially harassed in schools and so had not gone through the process of emasculation in their childhood. Despite living at a time when Filipino-American men were experiencing immense prejudice they never seemed to doubt their sexual potency.
Filipino migrants were different from East Asian migrants during that time period. Someone with a better memory could verify this, but I remember Ron Takaki, in Strangers from a Different Shore, specifically mentioning the Filipino dance parties where it was the opposite IR setup of what we have going on right now.
Hey guys,
Please note that URB4N has never posted as a blogger on the 8Asians.com blog, but he has previously commented on posts in the past.
Thanks,
- Ernie @ 8Asians
Hey Ernie,
Sorry about the confusion. Yes, to clarify, URB4N posts comments, not blog entries, on 8Asians. He’s also a commenter, not a blogger, on the Fighting 44s and on this site.
Thanks.
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Just date who you want. Who cares if there are more Asian women dating outside their race than Asian men? As long as you date who you want, that’s all that matters. I just think you’re making the problem bigger in your mind. Who cares what the media says? I think blaming others for low confidence is just weak. God helps those who help themselves. If you are not willing to work on yourself first, then no one can help you. Just sitting around complaining is not going to help anyone. It’s just a victim mentality. If there are Asian women who diss you, then forget them. Focus on solutions. More Asian women date and marry Asian men, so you need to look at what is already in the glass instead of focusing on the empty part. I just don’t see how complaining solves anything. Don’t look for others to affirm you through their relationships.
Now, why are there more Asian women/white male couples than AM/WF couples? Because there are more Asian women, PERIOD, in the U.S. Why? Due to mail order brides, military brides, international marriages, adoptees, etc. Plus, aborting female babies is not as common in the U.S., so there are more Asian girls being born per capita when compared to Asia. If you go to Asia, there are strong gender disparities, especially in China where abortion of female babies is a common practice. This has been going on for a long time. That’s why there are more boys than girls in school. Too many couples want a son due to pressure from their parents, society, etc. This is going to be exacerbated in the future when Chinese males will find great difficulty finding a bride, period, because there just won’t be enough Chinese women to date. Even if all the Chinese women dated Chinese men, there would not be enough because too many will have been sent overseas to be adopted or aborted. Yes, there are Asian women who will not date Asian men, but you have to consider other factors. Interracial dating isn’t the big problem you see it as. Lack of females is. When the numbers of Asian males and females are equal in the U.S. and Asia, then we can see how much interracial dating affects the population. But when Asian women outnumber Asian men, it just makes no sense to blame them when there will be more couples, PERIOD, involving Asian women, interracial or not.
Now, why are there more Asian women/white male couples than AM/WF couples? Because there are more Asian women, PERIOD, in the U.S.
So if there are three times as many married AF/WM couples than AM/WF couples, I would assume that that would imply that there are three times as many Asian women in the U.S. compared with Asian men? If there are ten times as many if we extend that to people who are just dating, am I right to assume there are ten times as many Asian women in this country as Asian men? If it’s just population, why do BM/WF couples greatly outnumber the opposite?
I guess what I’m saying is that I believe in positive thinking, but I also think that people need to take a real and honest view of the situation. Most people here aren’t necessarily complaining; they’re just trying to understand the situation as it is.
@Jaehwan,
I agree with your assessment. Don’t mind jstele. She has no idea what the heck she’s talking about.
That’s why I hate when someone mixes an FOREIGN issue in the airspace with an Asian American issue. Are they trying to BLAME us again for something we didn’t do? Last time I checked, I wasn’t a chinese law maker, and definitely not one from the olden era.
That argument makes no sense because adoptees are only around 5% of the Asian American population and not all of those are girls (There is more girls, but there are many boys as well), so even if 100% of them marries white dudes (which is close to reality I’ve heard), the maths still doesn’t add up. However if Asian American girls sees the problem and think all men in Asia are as*holes and somehow think that All Asian American Men are the same as those men in Asia and adjust their dating preferences accordingly, then that argument has legs.
In that case, I’m terribly sorry for looking like sexist men in Asia, I’ll make sure the next time I’ll born into the world, I will try to look less Asian. Or maybe I shall check out MJ’s plastic surgeon.
And I actually meet around 30 people from Shanghai when I was in HK last year. We have some heated argument about politics, but all of them (60% were women) doesn’t care about the one-child policy that the western world is so fixated on. Apparently, there are so many loop-holes that that rule is almost never enforced. The taking away of children was at its worst when it was a hot topic in the west and when demand for “rescue those chinese girls” were at the highest and because of the commission the adopting agencies paid, that’s when the greedy officers actually enforced the law.
Average number of children in China now is something like 1.8? Just quoting them from a year back, so not entirely sure.
Something is wrong with the posting function. I tried to post, but it wouldn’t get through even after typing the hint correctly.
I just think this kind of thinking reinforces the mentality of victimhood. And I really don’t think that is empowering, ultimately, for Asian men or women.
What I have posted IS relevant to the topic. Because the number of Asian women in the population RELATIVE to the number of Asian men DOES make a DIFFERENCE. If there are more Asian women than Asian men, then there will be more interracial AF couples. China and other Asian countries do make an impact as Asian men do not strictly date women from the U.S. The dating pool for any single person is as wide as the world is. I know lots of Asian women who marry overseas in Asia, so then there will be less of them to marry in the U.S. You must seriously be in denial if you do not acknowledge the fact that marriage migrants affect the rate of interracial AF unions. White men are BRINGING OVER Asian women who they have already married or are sending over for mail order brides.
“In other words, 1 out 2 American-born Asian women outmarry, 2 out of 5 American-born Asian men do the same; that’s not a huge difference and certainly showers cold water on the overheated idea that Asian women are “abandoning their people” in droves. Sex has little to do with it; generation is a far more powerful indicator.”
http://pewsocialtrends.org/assets/pdf/755-marrying-out.pdf
So they are saying that 50% of Asian American women as opposed to 40% of Asian American men are getting married to people of a different race. That’s just a 10% difference.
@Jstele
Just wondering where you got the 2/5 figure from? From what I’ve read, it was always closer to 1/4 (and thus the disparity). I’m going to pop some champagne if it’s really close to 40%.
And do you have any figures on the percentage of Asian Americans that are newly immigrants (which obviously would include the brides from Asia as you mentioned)?
@Jstele
My bad. Didn’t see the link.
I’m planning to order some champagne now.
But one crucial stat is missing.
How many Asian American Males are not married at a marrying age, say from 35?, versus the number of Asian American Females not married.
And that will put the figures into perspective.
(And that’s what really concerns us more)
N,
You just won’t give up, will you? I don’t have time to read that thing again, nor do I want to. It’s just confirmation bias. You’ve got the statistics and yet, you still find a way to invalidate them. Yes, Asian women date so many white men that there is no hope left for Asian men. Satisfied? It wouldn’t be so bad if you kept it to yourselves, but to influence other unsuspecting Asian men is just wrong. You get what you expect and if you don’t expect a date, then you won’t get one. Despite the statistics, I’m sure there are plenty of Asian women who are wondering why that Asian guy they like haven’t asked them out. If you are the type to complain and have not asked that girl out, then you are just part of the problem. “Well, I don’t have to ask a girl out because she’s Asian.” Well, no one owes you a date BECAUSE you are Asian. If every guy took the initiative to ask out the girl he liked, there would be less complaints. But you can complain and sit on the sidelines as if that will do anything. Next time, you see an Asian female/white male couple, ask yourself, Would I ask her out? If you wouldn’t, then it doesn’t matter anyway. If you would, then why not get to know her, befriend her? Who knows what will happen in the future? Be respectful, of course, but if you present yourself to be a better option, why wouldn’t she be interested?
Not all Asian men WANT to get married by 35, so what does it matter?
No, it’s mainly because it doesn’t added up.
As Asian American males, if we see AM/WF relationships, we will definitely pick it up.
And for better or worse, we pick up WM/AF relationships better than other people too.
And we can generally also tell they are FOBs or Asian Americans that had spend the majority of their lives here.
If the situation is really as suggested, for every 5 WM/AF couples we see, we should see 4 AM/XF couples.
But we don’t.
It certainly feels like more of a 3:1 ratio (and I’m being optimistic).
Unless the maths is like per 100,000 AM and AFs.
80% of AF are married and 50% of them are in a WM/AF relationship = 40,000
But if only 50% of AMs are married and 40% are married to XF, then the number will be = 20,000? That’s why the actual rate of marriage is important to put everything into perspective.
And on p.39, total WM/AF marriages are 40%, and AM/WF are 19.5%
% for born overseas is 36.8% for AFs and 11.1% for AMs
% for born in america is 50% and 40% respectively.
I’m not really a maths person, but does that imply the majority of women and men married in 2008 are born overseas? (And hence the numbers are closer to overseas born than born domestically). I would have thought that those born in the states would dominate the figure, not the other way around? And that’s why I ask about the actually number of woman getting married that are born overseas (against those born in the states) which again puts these figures into perspective.
Don’t be wrong, I would be extremely happy if there really isn’t a disparity but its really hard to believe because it didn’t seem to reflect reality. Again, I would be over the moon if reality is like that.
Our concern has always been the 1 in 5 that seems to have been left behind unwanted which seems to be fairly evident (I know a few myself). And generally everyone (includes AFs) recognises that AM/WF couples are a rarity compared to AF/WM couples.
The maths just doesn’t seem to add up somehow, but I guess I’ll let someone better with statistics to help solve the mystery.
@Jstele
It’s never about us.
It’s never about who WE date or how many WE date.
Nothing we ever do or say is going to affect the immediate generation.
We are trying to find answers that might help our next generation.
If the current generation is really as well-off as these stats suggest – there would not have been these topics brought up in the first place, I can assure you of that.
Tell us about how AM/WF relationships you know of by name. (I can count 2)
Tell us about how many WM/AF relationships you known of by name (I need 3 hands for that).
If all we all our stats together, it might be a fairly worthwhile exercise.
Not sure who wrote teh article, too tired to look up, but an analysis on the same report.
http://hanopolis.com/?articleNo=23701&story/Exogamy-rate-among-Koreans-Asians-and-others-in-the-US
@Jstele
Okay, one last post.
I’ve read through the report and I think you could be very right about your stance, judging from the statistics. So let’s hope everyone’s happy and no one is left behind (at least not too many people).
I’ll chat with the few AM/WF people that I know and see what they think of them catching up to the girls! Cheers.
Stele,
You stated the following:
“In other words, 1 out 2 American-born Asian women outmarry, 2 out of 5 American-born Asian men do the same; that’s not a huge difference and certainly showers cold water on the overheated idea that Asian women are “abandoning their people” in droves. Sex has little to do with it; generation is a far more powerful indicator.”
I didn’t see that in the link you provided. In fact, that link specifically says that there IS a disparity. It says,
Despite the big gender gap in the rate of ―marrying
out, Asian men and women in intermarriages have
similar patterns in the race of their spouses.
What does the word “big” mean? I would assume it means that it’s significant, not just the 10% that you mentioned and I didn’t see.
Yes, Asian women date so many white men that there is no hope left for Asian men. Satisfied?
It’s not about being positive; it’s about being real. The economy didn’t soar just because George W. Bush said that we had no problems.
@jstele
Now that I’ve had some sleep and read your last post (and be honest here, that post was fairly aggressive), I just realise your whole argument about No. of Asia (eg. brides from asia etc.) were all wrong, because those whole those AFs born overseas are actually MORE LIKELY to marry AMs than the AFs born in the states. So ironically, what you claim to be the source of the problem is actually help the disparity. So technically there’s a much better chance at asking a FOB AF out than a AF born in the states if you were an AM.
The quote was from this article by Oliver Wang in the Atlantic:
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/08/stir-it-up-race-and-newlywed-marriages/61139/
I got it from someone else who did not post the link. I had to search for it. But it doesn’t change the truth behind it. Just go to page 35 and 36 of the Pew study to see the data.
I believe this is what one might call a “confirmation bias”.
See, jstele doesn’t actually know what she’s talking about or she keeps fighting just for the sake of not being wrong. She just copies and pastes articles that supposedly support her argument and when it doesn’t, uses buzzwords to confuse or tire you out.
The problem with the Pew study is that it seems to only deal with percentages. What are the absolute number of marriages? The study claims that 40% of native-born AAs are dating out and that the partner is still white in a significant majority of cases. I live in Toronto and it still pretty rare to see asian guys mingling with white women outdoors or in malls etc (compared to white men and asian women). If the published percentages are true, then that could suggest that native-born AMs just aren’t getting married in high number period.
Urb4n,
You don’t know what you are talking about. All you want to do is say that Asian men are victims and that Asian women are their victimizers. You’re not willing to put responsibility on yourself or Asian men to do what they need to get women. I already gave advice that they could use to counteract this trend. All you want to do is blame Asian women.
Stele,
James brings up a good point, and also it doesn’t count dating or cohabitation, which people often do these days.
That being said, I tried looking up exactly what was asked during their survey. They had some info, but not a lot. I also noticed that they didn’t break anything down by race. I’m wondering if they maybe only asked people “Are you in an intermarriage?” If they did, Chinese guys married to Korean gals like Ben II would probably (and rightfully) answer yes. Or Shanghainese people married to Canto people might answer yes too. Considering how such couples do deal with cultural issues, it’s a fair way to describe what they have.
40% is 2 out of 5, and is very close to parity. That chart has us near parity for the last thirty years, which is totally illogical if you think about it. If it were near parity for 30 years, you would see the general population of native-borns being closer to parity today. Go to any wedding, party, or family gathering, and I guarantee that you will NOT see 2 out of 5 American born Asian guys with White gals or Black gals or any other non-Asian gals.
I’m pretty convinced that they’re talking about all “intermarriages.” I can easily see 40% of native born Asian guys married to Asians of different ethnicities. Most Chinese and SE Asian guys I know married Korean gals–yes, over 50%. Most Korean guys I know married Korean gals. I know some Asian guys married to White gals, but not very many. I know two Asian guys married to Black gals. Overall, if we count the Asian guys married to either White women or women of a different Asian ethnicity, that rate of “intermarriage” probably would be somewhere around 40%.
No. It was broken down by race.
So I wanted to check on something Jaehwan mentioned. The report is concerned with percentages, not absolute numbers. In other words, the report only factors in people who ARE married. Therefore, 40% of MARRIED AFs are in an interracial/ethnic relationship, and 20% of MARRIED AMs are in an interracial/ethnic relationship. However, the report does not tell us how many are actually married, and certainly not how many are unmarried. It could very well be that 100,000 AFs married in 2008, compared to only 50,000 AMs (and they married according to the above percentages). That would suck, but would be consistent with what many people who read this blog suspect.
I decided to use the percentages to try and uncover a little more information. Here’s what I did. Note, this is going to be wordy and slightly technical, but hopefully will be worth it.
The report says that 39.5% of married AFs intermarried while 19.5% of AMs intermarried in 2008. If the two numbers are equal (meaning the same number of AFs married in 2008 as AMs), then the percentage of all Asians in 2008 who intermarried should be the exact average of those two percentages, or 29.5%. Instead, it’s 30.8%. This means that the number of AFs who married in 2008 is greater than the number of AMs who married in 2008 because the 39.5% figure has “more weight” and pulled the average toward its side.
If you’re not following, try this. Make up some numbers — 1000 is a nice round number. Let’s say that in 2008, there were 2000 total marriages that involved Asians. AFs intermarried at a rate of 39.5%. AMs intermarried at a rate of 19.5%. That means, as long as exactly 1000 AFs married and 1000 AMs married, that 395 AFs intermarried while 195 AMs intermarried. The total Asian intermarriage rate, for every Asian who married in 2008, would be (395 + 195) / 2000, or 29.5%, the same number I stated above. But again, it’s not 29.5%, it’s 30.8%. This means that one side has more weight such that, when the two sides are average, the average is tilted to the weightier side. In this case, the weightier side is the number of married Asian females period, since 30.8% is closer to 39.5% than 19.5%.
The question, just how much extra weight does the AF side? In other words, how many more AFs married in 2008 than AMs? We can do a little high school algebra to figure that out. If we still use the 2000 number, we can setup two equations and two unknowns. I’d hash out the methodology, but you should just trust me on this one. It comes out to 1130 AFs marrying and 870 AMs marrying (test the math, it works). Of course, this is using the fictitious number of 2000 to illustrate a point.
On page 17 of the Pew report, it says that an estimated 186,000 Asians married in 2008. Ah ha! Now we can just substitute the number 186,000 in for 2000 using the same formula, and we come up with… 105,090 AFs marrying in 2008 vs 80,910 AMs marrying. That’s a difference of 24,180.
I hate math etain… and therefore am as clueless now as I was before
Don’t worry though, I’m sure that you explained it properly, I just zone out on high school algebra. I didn’t even like it when I was in high school.
Don’t worry about the math. Just know that ~105k Asian women married in 2008 and ~80k Asian men married in 2008. You can draw your own conclusions from that.
Ahhh… that’s much better for us math-phobes!
105/AF > 80/AM simple!
Thanks for doing the number crunching, etain!
For fear of “piling on” with the bad news, I have until now hesitated about adding this particular observation — a lot of the AM/WF couples that I see here in Toronto/NorthYork tend to be on the older side (40+). Now, I don’t know how long they’ve actually been together so I can’t draw any conclusions. However, several times now at a local Mandarin Buffet restaurant I’ve seen occasions where a mixed family with the dad being an AM and the wife being a WF were celebrating a birthday (it almost seems like half the clientele at the Mandarin are there to celebrate B-days). Now the disconcerting thing is that on several occasions, ALL the children were pure white. However, I’ve never seen the reverse (WM seemingly marrying into existing asian family) and this is strange as there are so many more WM/AF couples. And also, if you ever shop at the local Loblaws (large grocery store chain) up here in North York, you would at any time see plenty of WMs shopping with Happa children around but it is so rare to see an AM with his hapa children. Anyways, this is only one person’s observations and I don’t know if what I see extends to the states. And also, it would be interesting to know what percentage of AM/WF marriages involve one or both partners being in their second or higher marriage.
Something else I want to point out is the “All currently married” graph also on page 17. It says that, of all currently married Asians (not counting 2008) weddings, 9.3% of men were in interracial relationships, 21.7% of women, and 15.8% of all total Asians. This is interesting because, if we apply the same math from before, it means that the percentage disparity (not the absolute disparity between AF and AM marriages (not interracial marriages, just marriages in general) is almost three times GREATER in the 2008 marriages compared to all current marriages. In other words, Asian women are marrying more than Asian men at a growing rate, not a shrinking rate.
You can skip the rest if you don’t like math. Remember, greater deviation in favor of, i.e. more weight in that direction, means that there are more married people on that side.
Expected total interracial marriage rate for Asians in 2008 is 29.5%. Actual is 30.8% for a deviation of 1.3% from expected. Maximum deviation is 10% (10% away from 29.5% is 39.5% one way, or 19.5% the other way, and you can’t go any farther). 1.3%/10% is a deviation of 13% in favor of Asian women.
For all currently married Asians, expected total interracial marriage rate is 15.5%. Actual is 15.8%, 0.3% from expected. Maximum deviation is 6.2%. 0.3%/6.2% is 4.8%, again in favor of Asian women.
Screwed up that first paragraph while typing. Here’s what it should say.
Something else I want to point out is the “All currently married” graph also on page 17. It says that, of all currently married Asians (not counting 2008 weddings), 9.3% of men were in interracial relationships, 21.7% of women, and 15.8% of all total Asians. This is interesting because, if we apply the same math from before, it means that the percentage disparity (not the absolute disparity) between AF and AM marriages (not interracial marriages, just marriages in general) is almost three times GREATER in the 2008 marriages compared to all current marriages. In other words, Asian women are marrying more than Asian men at a growing rate, not a shrinking rate.
Well, another thing to consider is that demographics are reactive, not predictive. They may tell a story about what is, but the cannot tell you what’s possible.
For instance, of the Black males who enroll in college, only 35% actually graduate. Just imagine if I had taken that statistic, and focused on it whenever I was struggling with term papers, or tests or final exams. If I just looked at my skin color, and ten looked at the statistics, I never would have graduated. But the larger ethnic statistics couldn’t predict my individual outcome.
The same thing is true of the IR numbers, you can’t allow the statistics to saddle you with a sense of hopelessness, anger, or unfairness. You just have to go after what you want and forget about the numbers.
Stele:
“No. It was broken down by race.”
Nope; it’s not. This is why urb4n is accusing you of obfuscating. I don’t know if it’s intentional, but urb4n is correct. If you’re going to make statements, you need to link them or point them out.
I’ve only been talking about the native born Asian Americans; that’s clear from the entire discussion. I’m not disputing anything in the findings other than that the possible claim that the rates native born Asian American female interracial relationships and native born Asian American male interracial relationships are near parity. And this is your claim, not necessarily the claim of the study–all the study says is that these are rates of “intermarriage;” it doesn’t define the term.
All they have is a chart on page 36. Nothing is broken down by race.
They have that chart on page 35 too, but again, it doesn’t say anything about what they’re talking about. In fact, this one says “race/ethnicity,” which could support my theory. Or maybe not. It’s not clear.
I need to harp on this a little bit, just because it took some work to uncover and I do think it’s important.
Out of 186,000 marriages in 2008 including a least one Asian person, Asian women married 24,000 times more than Asian men. I mean holy shit! That’s a spectacular disparity, and it’s growing!
We keep talking about an IR disparity, but really an IR disparity means a marriage disparity period (since anything not interracial is intraracial). There’s simply a lot of unmarried Asian men out there compared to Asian women, and that’s really disheartening.
And of course, this is just marriage. If we include dating, I bet the disparity grows. If anyone has the courage/resources, I’d be interested to see what a random survey of 1000 Asian women and 1000 Asian men would produce if asked just one question, “Are you single?”
Etain,
“Out of 186,000 marriages in 2008 including a least one Asian person, Asian women married 24,000 times more than Asian men.”
How does that make sense? 24,000 times more?
Oh, Jesus.
Use some deductive reasoning for crying out loud. He obviously means 24,000 more Asian women than Asian men, not 24,000 times more.
Looks like Nitpick has made it back into the house.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/nitpick.htm
jstele wrote:
“Just date who you want. Who cares if there are more Asian women dating outside their race than Asian men? As long as you date who you want, that’s all that matters. ”
Who says that AA guys get to date whomever they want?
” I just think you’re making the problem bigger in your mind. Who cares what the media says?”
So you’re okay with Hollywood’s constant stereotyping of AM’s as asexual and even effeminate geeks, and AF’s get to be portrayed as exotic submissive sexual creatures to cater to white men’s fantasies? You really don’t think public misperceptions create consequences for AA’s?
” I think blaming others for low confidence is just weak. God helps those who help themselves. If you are not willing to work on yourself first, then no one can help you. Just sitting around complaining is not going to help anyone. It’s just a victim mentality. If there are Asian women who diss you, then forget them. Focus on solutions.”
I agree in part. But perhaps you could be a little more sensitive to those who’ve felt the sting of rejection time and time again and maybe haven’t had such a fulfilling life or great experiences like you have. I get what you’re saying; it’s just that I’m not sure I agree with the exasperated tone you have. Your admonitions to “find solutions” seem a little simplistic and a little dismissive of some social factors that do hamper progress. Much akin to rich people thinking that people mired in poverty need to just stop being poor and just find a job.
Yes, I meant that there were 24,000 more marriages involving Asian women than Asian men in 2008.
And I still think that’s a startling number.