C-Bruhs (BicoastalBitchin), Eva (Blake and Micah podcast), and Sylvie (Antisocial Ladder) recorded an all-female podcast yesterday. It’s the third in an ongoing series about Asian American Interracial Relationships and the Gender Divide that we started last year on the first part and continued a few weeks ago with URB4N on the second part. This third one runs for just over an hour. Download it here (55 megabytes fat–not phat–since, once again, I ran into GarageBand problems), or listen to it here:
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The podcast was recorded on InstantConference. Thank you to C-Bruhs for an awesome job hosting, and thank you to Eva and Sylvie for the excellent contributions and discussion.
I think this was a great step forward in the discussion. It was good to hear a compassionate inquiry on what is normally a hard subject to raise. As an aside, the only other Asian female podcast on the IR disparity that I’ve heard was led by an Asian American “feminist” and an Asian American “diversity consultant” who had obviously never dated or had had much interaction with Asian men, and the ensuing “discussion” quickly devolved into an anti-Asian male beat-down. This one was totally different (though I would’ve been cool regardless of what came out of it!). I really appreciated that C-Bruhs, Eva, and Sylvie were discussing long term implications and observations about both the present and future. Thank you all.
Some of my favorite parts of the discussion were the observation that when an Asian female says she prefers to date Asian men (33:40) it’s perceived as weird, the perspective that some activism wrongfully comes with conditions (43 minutes), and the question over “who has the power” (44:50). I appreciated that they analyzed individual behavior while taking the zeitgeist into account. I myself don’t pretend to be above and beyond the social pressures of the racial hierarchy, and I think we all need to consider what is going on around us. As humans, we’re social animals, and we need to take into account the role society plays in our lives.
There weren’t any areas where I flat out disagreed with what C-Bruhs, Eva, or Sylvie were saying. The only thing I might add to the discussion–something that I also mention when talking to men–is my belief that it’s hard to take the perspectives from one gender and apply them as a perfect fit to the situation with the other gender. An excellent book on the assymmetry between men and women in imbalanced gender situations is Bare Branches by Valerie Hudson and Andrea Den Boer. In Bare Branches, the authors talk about how women usually survive when faced with a shortage of men, such as in periods right after war. Men, on the other hand, often don’t do as well–historically, a shortage of women usually results in high crime rates, prostitution, and general unrest. I think that men react to an imbalance differently from women, and part of me is inclined to give at least some credence to the idea that it’s nature over nurture. (This idea was the one that got me into political trouble at my last blogging job, so if you all decide to beat up on me, please give me warning!) We can talk about this more either here or in future podcasts.
Anyway, give it a listen. I hope you all enjoy it as much as I did. As always, feel free to sound off like a WOWO.
Related posts:
I can see errors on both sides.
Some males are too extreme and I prefer them not to represent me as an Asian male.
Some females are still ignorant and don’t understand.
If anything it’s asian unity that needs work not impulsive actions.
I’ll chime in a bit later but what I personally see is that there is a big difference between “how things should be” as opposed to “how things actually are.”
I mean, all the evidence that Eva used has actually confirmed what I’ve been saying yet no one refuses to work on possible solutions that work within the confines of that reality.
Oh, one more small note: I’ve noticed that there is an mentality that’s rife in the Asian American female of feeling the need to cater to the feelings of white men. As in, they’re afraid of offending them.
Even at the expense of offending their own.
Another excellent podcast! I just finished listening to it so I still need some time to gather my thoughts, but kudos to C-Bruhs, Eva and Sylvie for lending their female perspectives to the debate of IR. I believe by having some Asian American women join in this discussion, it goes a long way to acknowledging this as a very real problem in our community, something that can no longer be passed off as just the misgivings of a few Asian American men.
IMO, one of the reasons for the bitterness and anger among some AM is because their concerns on this subject are constantly rejected or swept under the carpet. Sure, the the Asian American community faces a lot of challenges, and we should not just focus on any one thing at a time, but neither should we ignore the voices of a minority simply because some of us have other priorities. Most people just want to go about their daily lives and that’s fine. But for those who want to make a difference, either through blogging or real life advocacy, you have to find a little compassion within you even for the things you do not think directly concerns you.
On that note, I believe both Asian men AND women need to develop a stronger sense empathy for each other. It is ridiculous to divide our issues along gender lines. If there are many AM who feel neglected by AF, it is not just their problem, it is our problem. To simply dismiss their concerns as mere jealousy or some false sense of machismo is a mistake. I don’t think anyone enjoys being bitter and lonely all the time. There are real reasons behind the anger and if we want that to change, we gotta keep the dialogue going.
Anyway, I’m gonna listen to the podcast again. In the meantime, keep them coming Jaehwan.
Yes uRB4N i agree, and thats the problem. But i think its mainly about power and control, since the apex of power, wealth and control in Caucasian dominated societies lies in white males. So of course females would be wary of offending the most powerful men in the room….in practical ways, for example, job interviews, employment, housing, promotion, etc if you openly go against white males you will be a target, trust me I KNOW!!!!. So the only way to resolve that is to decrease the power of white males, white privilege, white supremacy, through increased ASIAN IMMIGRATION into the caucasian dominated countries. That way, the “white” ethnic group is no longer the majority, no longer the standard, no longer the NORM and it becomes more difficult to hold us down, because more numbers is more power. Thats a street lesson, but its really true in other areas of life. Alternatively, westernised asians just need to have as many children as possible to outpopulate the white ethnic group in caucasian dominated countries.
Personally, i think that asian men that exclusively date white women are just as bad as asian women who exclusively date white men, from my experience, both are confused about their identity, and generally have ffed up self esteem issues by placing greater value and emphasis on “whiteness” of their partners, while devaluing “yellowness” or the asianess of others. HAS ANYONE NOTICED that asian people who exclusively date “white” people are usually the most self hating mofos around, who really believe in “equality” “democracy” “freedom” etc and actually ashamed of the YELLOW STAR on their face? jesus….colonised minds right there.
So there you have it. Let me say and I accept responsibilty if you want to rant and hate me for it.
Personally I think that the main problem is society and asians have let it affect them. Assimilating too much without the slightest effort to compromise a way to keep your ethnic identity or help the next generation or the lost immigrant who used to be your grandmother.
Without Immigration covering up for multiculturalism, it would all be a big lie!
The prejudices are against asians, self racism has been instilled in every one of us.
At some point in time we have adopted these prejudices towards ourselves and each other practicing the same ignorances of mainstream society on each other eg. cultural misconceptions, racial stereotypes, emasculation, gendered racism.
Maybe nobody has really invested the necessary cultural education and humanistic traits to beat the anti-asian psychic diseases of the 21st century.
The bond between AM and AF breaks when our ethnicity is decommisioned.
The society we live in encourages individualism, therefore our responsibilities are reduced and our self centered-ness has become the highest priority.
And in this modern day and age of materialistic standards and superficiality, everything is mass manufactured by media even in love. Even the ideas of romantic partners are dictated by the media….no it does not favor asian people.
Don’t under estimate racism, it conveniently shifts and changes every way to suit the white patriarchy, after all it’s their colonized country and we are the perpetuated foreigners.
So I wonder…are we asian or what!? why is the AF and AM not harmonious? AF and AM have always been together in genetic memory.
I’m not telling you all to be racist to other people, I’m telling you all to stop betraying each other!
Where is the damn unity!!
Leon,
Thanks for the kind words–even though I hardly did anything on this one! Unless you’re talking about my sound editing, which, of course, is totally top class.
After hearing this, I got some cool activist ideas for actually changing the gender divide through institutions. These ideas are still in development, but of course I’ll share when I’ve got them down.
if the asian girl were to ask the asian guy out on a date would it seem desperate?
or maybe be seen as a lesbian with that kind of confidence?
what is the criteria for the “romance” or “man” qualities?
romance is a fantasy, some goals may be set too high for a qualified asian guy.
when people are professional, or “confident” then there is a class divide.
when people date one girl, pretty asian or ugly asian, white, black, hispanic, the perception is the point. to make the guy desirable, to other women like their prettier, sexier, hotter, friends. black, whites, hispanic guys do it to get other “choices” for the next day. this is the problem that grows, girls are used not necessarily sexually (maybe) but still as a sign of power.
There is the institutions we need to have a part in and there is also the media that influences.
I think there needs to be more asian media that represent us.
Western media and their ideals needs to be challenged when it comes to something ‘Asians’ because they rob asian people of their ethnic identity and representations.
Mainstream media and culture expresses only white interests.
IF you’re an asian and you can only speak english and read english.
Everything you learn about romance, love etc you’re likely to have a person envisioned especially some of the asian women I know who can’t imagine themselves with asian guys and don’t find them attractive at all.
Similar asian guys can be just as affected in teh same way but not in the greater effect because asians guys with white girls aren’t as widely accepted in the social norms.
But really, it’s asian and asian couples I am concerned about.
Asians should cut their losses and concentrate on what needs to be done next.
[if the asian girl were to ask the asian guy out on a date would it seem desperate?]
Of course not, there is no rule for this.
[romance is a fantasy, some goals may be set too high for a qualified asian guy.]
Other than the fake handsome white prince stories or the more modern Hugh Grant image.
There is always a common sense standard for all men to live up to when it comes to women.
They don’t have to be extremely high.
Byron, I started to give more viewpoints that address what the Asian women in this podcast asked and talked about. It’s too bad I forgot what I said.
(To those that don’t know, Byron and I chatted privately for another 45 minutes after the podcast ended)
One point that caught my ear was when Sylvia (I think) stated that she didn’t agree with the idea that just because an Asian woman isn’t with an Asian man means she doesn’t support them.
Again, I disagree and here’s the reason why:
One of the primary concerns of Asian America is the emasculation of Asian men by white society, specifically white men. As we all know, white patriarchy has stipulated that Asian men are sexually inept and not worthy of consideration. Therefore, when Asian women date white men, they are essentially giving credence to that mentality by proving it in daily life.
While an Asian woman can mentally and actively supporting Asian men while going out with a white man, there is absolutely no consistence in preach and practice.
Take it like this:
How much credibility would you give someone who claims to be heavily involved in PETA and protesting for animal rights but offers the explanation that what she does in her private life is her own business when you catch her eating an extra bloody hamburger?
None.
Because what this person is doing is preaching for animal rights but at the same time, sabotaging those efforts.
How can one possibly put any type of faith and a sense of reliability in you? Like I said repeatedly, I would rather every human being be consistent and not disjointed. In this case, if you date white men, stop saying you support Asian men. Like the old adage goes, practice what you preach.
Now, this brings me to another point:
Almost no Asian woman in America will preach that men of their community are superior to other men as far as they’re concerned. We’re sub par (at worst) and equal to other men (at best). From what I’ve observed from other non-Asian women, they already place “their” men as the best. It’s assumed.
This already gives Asian men a slow start because their own women don’t place them higher on the ladder like how other women put their own men. This leads to the women putting their men higher on the priority ladder in every respect.
But just incase if you want to know I came across an article about IR participation and it has dropped in the last 5 years.
So whatever you see now it probably coming to a stop. However these IR couple will become increasingly more noticeable now since every AA has a heightened awareness and we are getting the message out.
Many Asians women are reconsidering their choices due to the increasing number of immigrants so the market for AM is better. Especially since the emergence of the new asian century. Makes economical sense right?
It is actually becoming more valuable to be asian even in a white country and asians are becoming more influential to other asians.
Step up up your asian skills especially if you are Chinese! plenty of opportunities!
Also, much respect to C-Bruhs for bringing up a very important question about how would Asian women feel if the situation was reversed? While she asked how Asian women would feel if 45% of Asian men were involved with white women, Eva and Syl pretty much jumped around the question and didn’t really give a relevant answer.
To make it a bit more detail, I think C-Bruhs should have added the details of:
1.) Constantly having your sexual self worth attacked by white society
2.) Have many Asian men be some of your biggest detractors
3.) Have your presence virtually eliminated from society
4.) Give you a much harder time to be deemed acceptable by non-Asians
5.) Adjust social norms so that women have to be the “chaser” in the dating scene so more white women approach Asian men while Asian women are looked upon with disapproval from white men.
Granted, this will never happen. My point is that Asian women might have a “small” idea of what it “might” feel like, it will never substitute for the real thing.
I can drink from a glass of water and tell you that it’s cold. Until you drink from it as well, you’ll never know how cold it really is.
uRB4n,
I’m not denying the problems surrounding interracial dating and sexuality for Asian Americans, especially Asian American men. I’m very aware of the issues.
My only appeal is: can we please not be assholes when discussing these issues?
And that’s for both AA men and women. If a discussion about these topics is limited to one gender being told that they’re at fault, that something inherent in them is the cause of this problem, we’ll never get anywhere.
I’m not personally going to take the blame for a societal problem simply because I’m Asian and have a uterus. But I’m more than willing to civilly discuss this topic with anyone who’s willing to be civil to me as well.
when these are the times when “asian” is the new “blonde”, you become an object of desire. an object mind you, a possession. asian guys knew what you are to them.
we dont bribe you with gifts, we do it with heart; its not cheap, its stuff our moms told us to do.
yeah ok, money, power and all that is good. but do you the asian girl wanna look like a gold digger?
sex? everyone wants you for sex, that is a given.
love? asians knows asians very well. we are taught love by mama.
short asian guys come from short moms too. look at all the 5’8 guys and 5’0 girls on heels, tell me that is our fault.
asian frats promote a strong asian male image right? some times it gets skewed.
given selection, that is understandable.
like my ex was in iowa, 1 of maybe 12 asian families; you will be related; in a few months your asian bf is your cousin just cuz.
I think there’s a general perception by Asian women that Asian men have the desire to control them through their choices in dating and marriage, and that’s a misunderstanding. It is not a matter of ownership, but of kinship. We believe that Asian women should be our strongest allies and admirers, and they should. This does not mean that Asian men are automatically entitled to Asian women. After all we should also be your biggest allies and hold up our share of responsibilities.
It is more like a natural bond that comes from having similar history, culture, values, and struggles. We like to think you belong to us as much as we belong to you. It does not mean we think your choices should be limited, more like we’re hoping that you place a greater value in Asian men because of those things we share. That is how we build a stronger Asian American community.
Again, we’re not trying to take away your choices. That would be unrealistic since we’re such a small minority in a country of so many different cultures. Some mixing with other races is to be expected. But every time an Asian woman don’t chose us, we feel the loss. And every time she chose white, that makes the sting even worse because of the many reasons uRB4N have mentioned.
Totally non-sequitur, but every time I read something about IR dating I want to ask this question but always forget.
How many of you have a sibling of the opposite sex with whom you have discussed IR dating, emasculation, fetishization, etc.? What were the results?
i try to be possitive, ir relations are kind of over rated, i try to consider the parents feelings, but its more about the guys, who are the guys? its always the guys.
guys approach things so bluntly, based on everything they have experienced, a tourist attitude. the girl is made a tour guide; i watch this all the time and it is demeaning right? if the asian girl can kick his ass; then maybe its fair.
i would like to watch.
the stupid response it that “he is not like them” “he is different” socially advanced? check out the porn collection over there.
yeah ok, i dont like the overly possessive guys of any race. i feel as a gender we are falling back.
Okay, does anyone understand what the hell Kobe is talking about in both of his posts? Please translate if you do.
I’ll be really careful about being an asshole but I don’t think I’ve been a tool while talking about this.
I said that I only have a possible solution for Asian men, not Asian women. There is no way we [Asian men] can win that argument with out it looking like we’re trying to control Asian women. It’s a trap.
Only Asian women can come up with a solution for their own demographic. Right now, it’s not even on radar screen.
What I *did* say that it was both the fault of Asian men *and* women.
There is a lot of discussion from Asian women that Asian men, such as myself, who believe that dating white women for racial reasons is incorrect. I wish to counter that the reason why this is happening is *strictly* based on a lost sense of manhood strictly based on something Asian women are doing.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, I see the Asian female demographic as being the main cause of sexual emasculation and a massive destructive force in the self confidence of Asian men in North America.
To make matters worse, the logic of Asian women is to date out because Asian men don’t have enough confidence and date white men. The inability to use logic and grasp the situation is mind boggling to me.
The idea of Asian men dating out is a much more tangible solution to addressing the situation. I’m a fair person, if someone has a better solution that has proven to work, feel free to post it here.
I am a person that makes no apologies for my opinions and apologize if it comes off as abrasive. I entertain real results, not “I have a dream” speeches that only preach ideologies which make you feel good with no roadmap to a solution. If the latter was viable, we wouldn’t be talking about this.
Like I said in the podcast with Byron, I have personally seen a huge change in attitude and self esteem when Asian men see other Asian men with non-Asian women.
hi sorry, a few ppl mentioned that this is a time of “the generation of evil”.
the whole idea of relationships are so skewed. whatever the combination is now, it just means “who you are having sex with”.
bf/gf, xbf/xgf, bf/bf, gf/gf. (right).
evolution of the social human (male, in most cases)
stage 1: the Asexual time period consists of maybe 15 years.
stage 2: the “Buy”sexual time period consists of maybe 15-30 years
stage 3: the “Try”sexual time period consists of 15 – 30 years {viagra willing}
girls for some reason run through this pretty quick, different bio clock.
um… yeah, what mT said….
Remember me? I’m Siegfried! I was on the Fighting 44s before I got kicked off.
Speaking of the Fighting 44s, I’m glad that crap is off air. All it did was try to control Asian Females to not to date white males. Dialect called me a “useless moron” That is what he is. I’m glad he is letting the forum stay up so people can read how I was attacked. But I digress.
The trouble with Asian males that they try to bully the Asian females into their twisted point of view. The women see that and dislike being controlled. I’m glad they are waking up and have their own opinion. If you want to date Asian women, then you should have an open mind.
None of the girls on the Fighting 44s will never say that they don’t find white men attractive. Even Mao girl who was bullied off the forum, never said that she didn’t like us. And Ellen Cho thought that some white athletics was handsome. I’m sure that even Jade Dragon would marry me in a heart beat.
I digress.
What business is it of anyone who Asian women date? Yes, I like Asian women. I used to date white women, but now I date totally Asian. It has nothing to do with fetish. It is more of preference.
The more you try to control Asian women; the more she will turn to us and we will be waiting.
Thank you, Siegried. Your little statement is a shining example of passive-aggressive behavior, simultaneously attacking Asian men AND women. Sadly, your little tantrum merely demonstrates your excessive narcissism and craptacular self-esteem. I wish more white men like you would speak up, so everyone in the world would wonder why some women are chasing such primo douchebags. Normally, I’d let people run their own blogs, but since I like Jaehwan, I’ll volunteer to official renew your Useless Moron badge. Carry it with pride.
Haha…Leon, feel free to say whatever you want! We’ve got a loose moderation policy here, so while it enables to us to get comments from the better end of the spectrum, it also brings in comments like Siegfried’s.
Siegfried:
“Remember me? I’m Siegfried! I was on the Fighting 44s before I got kicked off.”
I remember the name, but to be honest, I don’t think you and I ever communicated, so I really don’t remember who you are or what you did. I will say this–Dialectic is a very fair admin, so if you did something that pissed him off, you probably were acting like a useless moron. Again, I don’t know who you are, but I tend to trust his (and Lopan’s, and Ellen’s, and Box’s) judgment on stuff like this.
“None of the girls on the Fighting 44s will never say that they don’t find white men attractive. Even Mao girl who was bullied off the forum, never said that she didn’t like us. And Ellen Cho thought that some white athletics was handsome.”
What’s your point? Is it a crime to find white people attractive? I’ll never say that I don’t find white women attractive either, and I too have seen some attractive white female athletes. So we’re all even, right?
“I’m sure that even Jade Dragon would marry me in a heart beat.”
Too late. She already married the person who you say called you a “useless moron.”
“The more you try to control Asian women; the more she will turn to us and we will be waiting.”
I don’t remember why you got banned, but you sound like a stalker.
Siegfried, did you get a little too excited typing your useless, moronic post?…Because that could be one possible explanation for your horrible English.
Haha, yes, the gravatar works. Yeah!
I find most investment bankers to be pretentious, power hungry, money grubbing, arrogant douchebags…no offense. But uRB4N does make some great points, and I generally agree with his premise.
Sigfried,
I think your post is a little off. It seems to me there are two different issues at hand with IR’s and specifically the asian male perspective on them (NOT to hijack this podcast/post and turn it into ‘the asian male perspective’ as apparently has happenned in the past). It seems that a lot of Asian men don’t have a problem with Asian women dating outside of their race (I know – there are exceptions, I hope my views don’t offend you.), but that the issue is Asian women who claim “I won’t date Asian men” as a blanket statement.
I’m not sure there are many people that would begrudge someone finding love with another person – regardless of their skin color. It’s the blanket assumption that anyone can be presumed to be ‘undatable’ before they’re known on an individual level. That appears to be a legitimate complaint to me – especially when it’s taken to the racial/cultural level. No-one likes being shoved into a box, and when it’s done on the racial level – by someone of your own race in a blanket way, I can see where someone would be offended.
I think for a woman to say “I like white men” is no different than a guy who might say “I like redheads” to that point, Sigfried is allowed his preference. While I might say “I like brunettes” that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t date a blonde. If a woman says “I wont date asian men” It’s different, it’s gone beyond preference, it implies that even if the Asian guy was their perfect match in every way, he still wouldn’t be good enough. That’s beyond preference, and I can see where that would offend an Asian male – it would certainly grind on me.
I’d also have to say your statement of:
“The trouble with Asian males that they try to bully the Asian females into their twisted point of view.”
is as blanket of an assumption as a woamn who refuses to date based on race. It’s absurd to think that all asian men are opinionated bullies trying to force their ideas on their women. Do you have any Asian friends? I’m guessing no if you’re able to type something that ridiculously narrowminded.
Hello, Siegfried. Your gravatar is looking mighty attractive and fine today.
“The trouble with Asian males that they try to bully the Asian females into their twisted point of view.”
Well.
The trouble with white males [is] that they believe Asian females are their entitlements.
Robert is going to call me out now on the blanket assumption. That’s okay.
Nah Akrypti. While I do disagree with your statement (as a blanket) for certain, I can understand responding in kind to Siggy. I can chalk your blanket statement up to righteous anger
Sigfried, you’re being ridiculous.
There are some people who feel very strongly about preserving culture/ethnicity when it comes to their mating choices. There are Blacks who only date/marry Blacks, there are Chinese who only date/marry other Chinese. There are White people who only date/marry other Whites. In general, society accept this choice as one that preserves a variety of culture and ethnicity.
For example, have you considered that if every Asian woman on Earth had decided not to mate with an Asian man, that at some point, you wouldn’t have any pure Asian women to chase after? It takes TWO ASIANS to make an exclusively Asian woman… or have you forgotten logic and biology?
But back to my point, there are also some people who’s primary concern in selecting a mate is based on more NON-ethnic criterea. These are open to coupling with persons from a wide range of ethnicities or cultures. This idea, although somewhat new, is at the least, widely tolerated, if not yet enthusiastically accepted in every quarter.
But your “preference” arguement falls rather clumsily between two barstools. You are obviously not seeking to preserve a specific historical/ethnic culture, nor are you romantically open to a wide range of other ethnic cultures. In your case, you have excluded the idea of coupling with a member of your own ethnicity and have now focused exclusively on females of the “Asian ethnicity.”
Your explanation for this is that this is your “personal preference.” But that is NOT a preference. A preference is not exclusionary. If I prefer Coca Cola, it doesn’t mean that I won’t drink Pepsi or Orange Crush. If I say that I prefer readheads, that doesn’t mean that I refuse to date blondes, it just means that I happen to favor redheads. But you have virtually turned it into a religion. It may not be racism, per se, but it is at least racialism.
@Siegfried,
“…the more she will turn to us and we will be waiting.” You sound like a fucking serial killer.
While I appreciate the sheer ingenuity of deepening rifts in other people’s racial groups because you think it will get you more ass, kindly take it elsewhere. We’re trying to have an actual discussion here.
While I find these discussions important, it’s also just tiring on the psyche. At least, to me it is; there’s just so much to digest. Ed wrote “Where is the damn unity?”
Good question, where is it? Is it possible? I dunno. We’re not a monolithic block. We all have different experiences and perspectives. And when this subject comes up, we’re all a little too defensive. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the ladies’ viewpoints, because I think it’s good to get a perspective other than one from those who pretty much agree with you. but I have no idea how we can become a little less reactionary unless we have these types of dialogs and debates.
In the end, it’s about compatibility and being happy. There will always be those who exclusively date white guys or white girls for whatever reasons. Some I may agree with, some I won’t. And there’s nothing I can do about it if someone doesn’t want to listen, or at least be open to my viewpoint. All I can hope for is that there will come a time when they gain a true awareness that there’s nothing wrong with dating within , or without, but more importantly dating within.
On some level, you have to be the best person you can be and just be who you are. I once went out with a Eurasian girl who did not identify whatsoever with her Korean heritage, even thought he map of Korea was on her face! Instead, she identified more with her Irish heritage and had spent time living in Europe. There’s no way you can change her outlook, that she was ignoring an essential half of who she is. She was culturally whitewashed through and through. I can’t fault her for it, or call her a sellout or whatever, even though I didn’t like it much that she had zero interest in her Korean heritage. That’s just who she is.
I agree with what Leon wrote, that we could all be a little more empathetic with each other.
Honestly, even if you use the example of John Lennon and Yoko Ono; the whole idea of IR is a big problem, supposedly Yoko caused the break up of the Beatles.
Tragic; possibly up to his assassination, he even had a heavy eastern philosophic influence.
In another version of IR, look at Paul McCartney and Micheal Jackson; after that collab; a conversation between the two led to Micheal buying the entire Beatles catalogue of songs at the time. Royalties of a legend in the hands of the King of Pop; this was hip hop before even Aerosmith and Run DMC.
The pain goes on, Sony acquires Micheal Jackson’s Lyrical assets as collateral for a larger long term re financing deal. this was such a steal at 200 million, but radio airplay goes down for oldies; Mike and his troubles with little boy friends; and electronics are more portable; Blu Ray is packed with details, but try staring at it with an ipod.
Relations of 2 worlds are difficult, there is too much prejudice; you end up subconsciously thinking if gender roles, where do Jon and Kate stand? who is the housewife? is the asian male an engendered species?
i hope you guys follow my line of thought. the mixed kids cant choose just one side, they need both. How do Jewish people look at this? or even the Hispanic communities? these are all mixed. Should there just be one dominant culture in the person?
(I apologize – I haven’t listened to the entire podcast, single mom and all that but I think I’ve read enough blog posts and comments here to get the gist of the issue)
I was married to a white man, divorced him. Now I am dating a Korean man. I am Korean. I also went to an international boarding school in India.
Looking at my past dating history, I have to say that the attraction for me wasn’t so much the looks or racial features. While in boarding school, I dated mostly Asian boys (Indian, Iranian, mixed) but not east Asian boys… a couple of European white boys (British and Swedish). The one thing that’s common was who belonged to the popular crowd, i.e. dominant crowd with power.
Then, while living in Minnesota, I’ve only dated white men. 1) Only white men have asked me out. Over the last 20 years that I’ve lived here, no Asian man asked me out. 2) According to census, I think Asian, specifically Korean, populations number is pretty low percentage.
There’s also the phenomenon of Asian men walking to a table of women and making sure that they hit on all women except the Asian one.
I don’t think it’s an issue of gender divide. I think it’s an issue of something more primal, i.e. survival instinct. I know that we are humans but if you zero in to one out of one hundred available potential mates, you are not going to be mating or procreating very often. I’ve noticed that many of my Korean-American friends on the west coast, i.e. CA area, are married to other Korean-Americans. There is a significant and dominant Korean-American presence there.
Here’s another theory. If you grow up with parents who are like all the other kids’ parents (racially, culturally, whatnot), you would want to emulate their relationship and be attracted to the same race. If you grow up with parents who seemed so FOB and all you wanted, as a teenager, was to fit in… well, how do you fit in? You marry/date the dominant race/culture/whatnot.
Anyway. Just two cents from the gal who finally got asked out by a Korean man (except he isn’t from Minnesota, he lives 2000 miles away). And it wasn’t even about the race but I was finally in a place where I wanted someone who understood me, my history, my story… and not about dating for survival or within the dominant/popular crowd.
What are you guys? Nazi or something? What the hell does it matter what race a person is? Why are you trying to keep your race pure?
I just find Asian women more attractive than any other. So what’s the big deal?
We are all AMERICAN! A melting post! That means people from all over the world. This is the 21 century, not the 1930′s.
There are many white guys who date only white women, there are many white guys who date people of other races. I have dated some other ethnic groups, but I prefer Asians over all. I don’t particularity care for black women. They are not attractive to me. For example, Michelle Obama is not pretty at all and comparing her to Jackie O is ridicules.
I like reality Tv. I saw Big Brother last season and the Amazing Race a few days ago. Seeing hot Asian women on the screen (scantly clad) is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. It excite us. So quit complaining about it.
To the guy who complained about my English, I don’t give a damn you’re not my English teacher. If you don’t like my writing, don’t read it.
Jeawan:
I feel sorry for Jade Dragon. Dialectic will have take her to stupid movies like Transformers and Star Trek. She needs a real man, not a comic book geek.
His only experience with sex is with his hands. He finally moved out of his parent’s basement, or is he going to take Jade Dragon there.
When Jade Dragon get’s tired of that loser, she’ll run to me.
He so ignorant that he keeps a failed website open hoping that it will come back to live some day. Well that game is over.
Mama Nabi,
You make some interesting points about power.
I’ve been trying to make time to think about ways to use institutional power to help “fix” this divide. As many of the commenters here have mentioned, it’s sometimes unhealthy to get fixated on the topic. We’d be much happier if we were talking about how we’ve taken steps to fix it and help the divide. I’ve got some ideas, and I hope to talk a little more about the power that Mama Nabi discusses in her post. We can get take small steps in fixing the “divide” in a way that should work for everyone.
Oh, and one of the joys of running a site that doesn’t require registration for comments is that we can all kinds of morons here. You guys and gals all have the right approach in dealing with Sigfried. If we can just use Siegfried’s dorky comments as a means to crack funny jokes or illustrate that racism that exists in the world today, we can treat his stupid comments as a way to either enjoy a joke or to think more deeply about the silent enemy we’re fighting.
Siegfried, please find somewhere else to play. No one here likes you.
Mama Nabi,
thanks for sharing your experiences. I think what you wrote makes sense about wanting to fit in with the pre-dominant cultural around you. No doubt, one’s environment affects our behavior. Like I stated before, compatability has a lot to do with finding happiness in a partner. I’m glad you found someone who understand your story.
Kobe,
I have a cousin who is bi-racial and I asked her that question about identity. She told me that for her, personally, she chooses to identify herself as Asian mainly because of the Asian family influence was stronger when she was growing up (her mom, my aunt, is white), but that she recognizes her other self because she’s BOTH. When she’s with her mom’s side of the family, then she gets to experience her other heritage in that way. She doesn’t seem conflicted as to who she is and feels comfortable in her own skin.
jaehwan,
true, discussing this social dynamic wears out the psyche just because there’s so many facets to address. at the same time, it’s necessary to keep this discussion on-going so that our voices can finally be heard and found by others. I know, I know, this topic has been beaten to death. But the drumbeat still needs to echo throughout the vastness of cyberspace so people can finally see and begin to understand there is a problem. I would hope that discussions like this DOES begin to stir the consciousness of more Asian males and females so that they too can recognize that this dynamic exists in our community. Some of them don’t have awareness yet of how this divide really affects us as a whole. Hell, I’m a good case in point. I always had a funny feeling about these social dynamics and it wasn’t until several years ago I started to look online did I find a plethora of discussions about issues that affect us as Asians Americans.
I realized I wasn’t alone and there were Asian sisters and brothers giving voices to what we experience and feel as Asians.
Sigfrie, from one cracker to another, that spongy mass in your skull that tells you when it’s time to use the bathroom really shouldn’t be the same organ that you use to comment on an asian activism blog. Your arrogance about Jade Dragon (no clue who that is, but I’m pretty sure she thinks you’re an asshat) is mind boggling. Self belief is a wonderful thing, but when you come to a discussion that’s tense between the members of the same race (asians in case you’re not following along) and you interject your arrogance, you should expect to meet resistance, actually, I look forward to reading the responses I’m sure you’re about to get.
@mama very interesting post, you bring up some very interesting points, referencing basic human evolutionary needs models in ways that at least I hadn’t considered. Glad to hear you’ve found happiness, from some of your other posts, it sounds as if you’ve had some rough patches in the relationship world.
Sorry, I’m trying to stay out of this one (other than my responses to Sigfrie – how can you not?) as I realize I’m on the outside of this discussion. Very interesting to read / listen to tho.
I have to agree with mojorider on this one. While for some people (us), this topic seems like a dead horse that has been beaten, hung, processed into library paste, and eaten by 5th graders, for the vast majority of people in the United States [world?] it’s very very new.
While many young people have probably noticed an unusual affinity between white males and Asian females, I doubt they have asked themselves why this pairing seems to be so popular, much less wondered what the other side of the same coin entails. Without that sort of awareness, this issue will never be resolved because people don’t recognize its existence.
For those of us “in the know,” it becomes our responsibility to spread awareness by contributing to discussions such as this one, and also raising this topic and making people aware when appropriate. That last part is very difficult, because it immediately enervates the speaker. However, it’s a very necessary step if we wish to resolve this issue.
Sigfreid, you keep digging your own grave here, just like on the 44s…
You keep trying to put forward this idea that you’re just expressing your personal preference. For example, “I don’t particularity care for black women.”
Well, I’m not quite sure how far this statement goes, so I’m inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.
But then you go on to say: “For example, Michelle Obama is not pretty at all.”
OK fine… but Michelle is the President’s wife not a movie star. She looks good for a 40+ year old mother and non-model/actress type. She’s not supposed to be the universal proof case for Black beauty.
But THEN you go on to say, “Comparing her to Jackie O. is ridiculous.” which takes it far afield from your own personal tastes, and speaks to how you think that other people should see her. So it’s no longer about YOUR PERSONAL TASTE, it’s now about your stupid ideas about how everybody else should see her and compare her.
“Ridiculous”??? Why?? because YOU don’t “particularity care for black women???”
What you’re saying here is that people who do happen to see her as attractive or classy are being ridiculous. And that’s the problem with people like you—all too often your so-called “personal preferences” end up as racial value judgements that you then wish to impose on other people.
i often wonder if i am also ignored like sigfried, guys want to JUST HAVE SEX with asian girls. i see this crap with 13 year olds, the stuff they want to believe. i mentioned a few good things in my post, at least i thought they were.
girls are allowed to date who ever they like, but just dont do it in spite; and seriously, how many of these couples may be trapped? kept silent on rapes?
So, is anyone going to take some time to address my points?
Or shall we all do the same dog and pony show where we all touch upon the topic at hand for a second, chime in with our personal life experiences, get distracted by an internet troll, go back to talking about what an idiot the troll was, and then finally letting the thread die with no input whatsoever?
I love wasting my time on a topic that will eventually get restarted again in a few months per the usual Asian American MO.
you know what? i wanna try to date a white girl, but i dunno if they are defensive as another girl. theyre was this japanese guy with a girl that even i liked, kinda petite brunnette, healthy.
is financial security an issue for relationships? physical appearance? just ask every female to date asian guys, there will be rejection, but you want to to see if there is acceptance. i dated a russian girl for a while, and we just wanted to make out for the whole time. and then there was a latina, really hot. and even one black girl, not much on that one.
have the money and the time to spend (with caution) on the girl. 10 no’s = 1 yes on average.
Urb4n:
You compare female APA activists who date white men to animal rights activists who wear fur coats. (The precise example you gave was a bloody hamburger, but at least this is the essence of your first point.)
As for your second point, it stops the conversation, because you say if Asian women never experience what Asian men experience, then they’ll never get it. And since we don’t get it, the implied thesis here is that we don’t have the right to gripe.
What did you anticipate me, an Asian female, to say to that second point? I probably shouldn’t say anything, because I just won’t “get it.”
But back to your first point. You’re affirming the consequent. If Suzie Wong dates a white man, then Suzie Wong thinks Asian men are effeminate/wife beaters/not good enough. Suzie dates a white man. Therefore Suzie thinks Asian men are effeminate/wife beaters/not good enough. That’s the fundamentals of your logic, which you then take a step further by citing that conclusion as the reason why Suzie Wong will never be a credible APA activist. With that kind of logic, no gay man could be a feminist. And that’s simply not true.
Epilogue:
Akrypti to Hubby: “Honey, this guy on the Internet is saying that Asian women who date white men and claim to be activists are like animal activists who wear fur, or eat hamburgers, and stuff. How do I refute that?”
Hubby: “You don’t. He’s right.”
I think this is the toughest knot to untangle — whether or not AF can support AM while being romantically involved with a WM. Is it possible to say that both sides correct?
First, we are of course setting aside the total self-haters who refuse to date Asian men. I assume we’re talking about AF who legitimately understand the plight of Asian men in this respect and sympathize with , stand up for, and support Asian men. Also, these Asian women are dating white men.
I forgot who wrote it on the Fighting 44s (maybe even elsewhere), but there was a quip that basically said that the majority of AF/WM relationships aren’t of the white worshipping and/or rice chasing variety. There just happen to be two people involved romantically in a healthy way. I support this premise. Basically, the WM would date WW (and probably has), and the AF would date AM (and probably has), but circumstances just put the two together this way in the meantime.
Can an AF involved in this kind of relationship turn to her boyfriend’s friend who’s making fun of AM masculinity and tell him off? Yes, of course, and I absolutely believe her intentions. However, just how credible would she be? I think that’s the ultimate question. Very few people would take her very seriously because, like urban mentioned, her actions do imply a sort of hypocrisy, even if it’s totally coincidental and unintentional. She could be extremely aware, articulate, and persuasive, but she will never have a significant role in the activist community or be lent much credibility by the lay community. It’s just impossible.
Think of it this way — Barack Obama won like, what, 95%+ of the black vote in 2008? Clearly that means practically all black men and women voted for him. What if he were married to a white woman? He would be the same person, have the same intelligence, be able to speak to the black community in the same way… but what percentage of black women do you think would have voted for him? And really, you can’t blame them, because it’s a valid criticism.
URB4N:
“I love wasting my time on a topic that will eventually get restarted again in a few months per the usual Asian American MO.”
Actually I have another post coming up tomorrow at 11 am Pacific. I’m ahead of the pack; everything on WOWO moves at warp speed. BOOOYAHH!!!
Akrypti:
My post on trying to come up with some solutions is coming up in 11 hours…woohoo! I think a solution will become apparent soon. Or at least a possible path.
“Akrypti to Hubby: “Honey, this guy on the Internet is saying that Asian women who date white men and claim to be activists are like animal activists who wear fur, or eat hamburgers, and stuff. How do I refute that?”
Hubby: “You don’t. He’s right.”
Haha…that’s great! You’re husband is awesome. Seriously, y’all should drop by Portland sometime when it’s UFC night.
Etain:
“Think of it this way — Barack Obama won like, what, 95%+ of the black vote in 2008? Clearly that means practically all black men and women voted for him. What if he were married to a white woman? He would be the same person, have the same intelligence, be able to speak to the black community in the same way… but what percentage of black women do you think would have voted for him? And really, you can’t blame them, because it’s a valid criticism.”
On my 11 am Pacific time post tomorrow, check out the link (sorry, I’d post it up now, but I wanted to give Jimmy Aquino some time in top position. If you find the article sooner, please keep my secret!). There will be a comment in the comment section that says that Obama, in Dreams of My Father, wrote that he could not marry a White woman because he was specifically seeking out his roots. According to the comment, he broke up with a White woman over it.
Has anyone read Dreams of My Father? Can anyone vouch for this?
I actually did read Dreams of My Father and am embarrassed to say I don’t remember that part. My book is currently with my mom so I can’t look it up, either. If it’s true, and I have every reason to believe it is, then I admire him for his self-awareness. Truly an insightful person.
Or maybe he knew he would need black female voters in the future
But I think the corollary is valid. If Obama married a white woman, but kept talking about the need for black men to recognize black women as viable romantic partners, how credible would he be?
Okay guys,
I got a little off the topic. I’ll act appropriately for now on.
Let’s have a mug of beer and chill out. This is the way of me apologizing.
I do have strong opinions on this subject too since it effect my love life.
I do agree what the women said in the podcast. They are pretty intelligent.
I saw Laura Ling and Euna Lee’s husbands on Larry King. They both were white.
One had a little girl that you could not tell if she was half Asian or not.
First of all, I’m not here to get into some arguments with the ladies, so I’ve avoided jumping in to address Urb4n’s points but here goes…
I think there IS an inherent hypocrisy for AF’s to say that they support AM’s while dating out. BUT, that doesn’t mean the message of what those AF’s are saying are inherently invalid. It does, rather, lessen the credibility of the messenger. But I will try to be careful with my judging anyone. Or at least to try to judge slowly.
I tend to see this as a rather gray area. Because, first of all, I don’t know the circumstances of that AF and why she’s dating out. Maybe she is of the brainwashed mindset that “white is right”, maybe she has contempt for Asians. I dunno; I think there may be a myriad of reasons for that outcome and I’m not living her life so I don’t know enough to come to a definitive conclusion. Yet, at the same time, I’d like to see some action on the part of AF’s who say they support and are sympathetic with the AM’s plight show some equal opportunity to some of their Asian brothers when it comes to dating.
yet, this is America, it’s an open society and you’re free to do what you want. I’m not going to control or seek dominance over Asian women, that’s ridiculous. Am I really going to call my sister a sell out and a whore because she married a white guy? And praise my brother because he married a white girl? Am I suppose to shun my nephews and nieces who are bi-racial? No, of course not! It is what it is. I’ll give the AF’s the freedom to be who they are and to make the choices they want in life. I might not like some of those choices, but I can’t stand in anyone’s way. You have the freedom to fuck up your life or lead a happy one, it’s your choice what you want to do with your life.
having said that, still, there is this huge imbalance, this dynamic that affects us all. There are these circumstances that still affect a lot of AM’s. I mean, there has to be this recognition that it tears our community apart, when one set is more accepted by white society than their counterparts. AF’s, I would hope, come to realize this affects their brothers, their fathers, all the males in their own families. For once, I’d like to walk down the streets and see some really beautiful Asian woman with a really handsome Asian man. NOT some really beautiful Asian woman walking around with some goofy looking white dude.
One Asian woman told me that where she was growing up in Los Angeles, not one Asian male asked her out. Ever. She always dated Latinos and white guys. So I dunno if I have any possible solutions, but maybe the first step is for AM’s to be more assertive and talk to the AFs you see when you’re out at a bar or nightclub. Don’t assume anything about her just yet. Maybe that will change the perception some AF’s have about AMs?
I think there’s an assumption that it’s only Asian men that would be skeptical of the credibility of an APA woman activist that dates white men. Surely mainstream society would also look upon that as suspect and not take them too seriously? I would suggest that most people, Asian or otherwise, would find such an activist unconvincing and that alone would be sufficient reason for Asians to question the wisdom of having such a person as an advocate.
Just imagine the scope of the task. One would have to convince an entire society and it’s media that is already heavily invested (both financially and politically) in demeaning Asian people in general and Asian men in particular that, despite marrying/dating a white man, you believe that demeaning portrayals of Asian men are inaccurate. They would laugh at you.
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Okay, it’s up! (See above)
I generally agree with Mojo and Terri.
Etain,
I’m going to have to check out that book. I heard Obama was a total militant back in the day.
I disagree.
At this point in time, just the existence of Asian women with white men enforces negative Asian male stereotypes because of *very* specific social conditions. If Asian men weren’t so emasculated by white male society and if Asian men dated interracially at almost the same ratio as Asian women, all of this would be moot.
The problem is that neither of those two conditions taking place *along* with the massive interracial marriage and dating of Asian women.
So, just walking down the street helps valid the inferiority of Asian men set forth by white men.
uRB4N, I agree with your points, but not your solution. I believe it will help the general self-esteem of Asian men if they see more AM with WF, but you can’t expect all AM to start dating WF anymore than you can expect all AF to stop dating WM. And if everybody end up chasing after white ass, there won’t be much of an Asian American community. I also think it’s a mistake to cut off all the women from us, but then our goals are differernt. I want to close the divide that seperate the genders. Sure, there are few AF who are aware of this IR issue and fewer still who agrees that it’s a problem. Then there are some who are still unaware and some who are sellouts that we love to hate. But if we’re hoping to reach out to those women who are unaware and bring them over to our side, we need the few who are actually with us right now.
The problem with this whole IR issue is that it has generated so much mistrust on both sides that most AF won’t believe in AM, no matter what we say. I’ve seen this issue resurrected countless times on various forums and not once have I ever seen a single AF change her mind. Just a lot of shouting and finger-pointing and nothing getting resolved. That is why I think it’s a big step to a have a podcast with just AF speaking on this issue. Even though they do not agree with all the points we bring up, at least they’re willing to talk about it, which in turn will hopefully lead to more AF listening and become aware of how this issue effects the community.
i am sorry, i dont write well, its a popular trend with me.
i want to see asian ppl date asian ppl, is that fair? i mean like ABC with ABC is that fair? or even FOB with ABC and not have some gender politics come into play, just speak the same body language.
we need to promote the right way to approach dating, where the guy is not possessive or the girl is so submissive.
i think going dutch is insulting, but i cant buy her a car for lunch. be reasonable.
there is so much sex tourism involved, and this is the problem, non asian ppl look for it.
ever notice that a lot of the IR relations; have the girl go all the way to look like a magazine model; that they can parade around town and say “yeah im taking her home with me” <– ppl like sigfried personify my angst.
WHERE ARE ALL THE ASIAN MALE REPORTERS? are they ballsy enough to be news anchor? every channel in every town pretty much has an AF with WM cast; african female with white male; and even latina.
ok, i watch some chinese news channels and at times they have 2 female anchors.
???
my friends in toronto, af dated wm in hs;
neglected at times; she becames lesbian; dates wf; arguments every other hour; she resorts to porn online; i hang with her bro, the man is crying inside.
asians have IQ, i want more for them to have EQ, and make it a standard for asian ppl to develop EQ.
i need help myself at times.
who can teach these things? a lot of times bruce lee may have caused more probs than solutions.
I’m confused.
What is the rational Asian women use as an excuse to mistrust Asian men?
The only statement I heard was that Asian men are hostile to Asian women. Here’s the kicker; it’s something Asian women are doing that are causing Asian men to be hostile to you.