C-Bruhs (BicoastalBitchin), Eva (Blake and Micah podcast), and Sylvie (Antisocial Ladder) recorded an all-female podcast yesterday. It’s the third in an ongoing series about Asian American Interracial Relationships and the Gender Divide that we started last year on the first part and continued a few weeks ago with URB4N on the second part. This third one runs for just over an hour. Download it here (55 megabytes fat–not phat–since, once again, I ran into GarageBand problems), or listen to it here:
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The podcast was recorded on InstantConference. Thank you to C-Bruhs for an awesome job hosting, and thank you to Eva and Sylvie for the excellent contributions and discussion.
I think this was a great step forward in the discussion. It was good to hear a compassionate inquiry on what is normally a hard subject to raise. As an aside, the only other Asian female podcast on the IR disparity that I’ve heard was led by an Asian American “feminist” and an Asian American “diversity consultant” who had obviously never dated or had had much interaction with Asian men, and the ensuing “discussion” quickly devolved into an anti-Asian male beat-down. This one was totally different (though I would’ve been cool regardless of what came out of it!). I really appreciated that C-Bruhs, Eva, and Sylvie were discussing long term implications and observations about both the present and future. Thank you all.
Some of my favorite parts of the discussion were the observation that when an Asian female says she prefers to date Asian men (33:40) it’s perceived as weird, the perspective that some activism wrongfully comes with conditions (43 minutes), and the question over “who has the power” (44:50). I appreciated that they analyzed individual behavior while taking the zeitgeist into account. I myself don’t pretend to be above and beyond the social pressures of the racial hierarchy, and I think we all need to consider what is going on around us. As humans, we’re social animals, and we need to take into account the role society plays in our lives.
There weren’t any areas where I flat out disagreed with what C-Bruhs, Eva, or Sylvie were saying. The only thing I might add to the discussion–something that I also mention when talking to men–is my belief that it’s hard to take the perspectives from one gender and apply them as a perfect fit to the situation with the other gender. An excellent book on the assymmetry between men and women in imbalanced gender situations is Bare Branches by Valerie Hudson and Andrea Den Boer. In Bare Branches, the authors talk about how women usually survive when faced with a shortage of men, such as in periods right after war. Men, on the other hand, often don’t do as well–historically, a shortage of women usually results in high crime rates, prostitution, and general unrest. I think that men react to an imbalance differently from women, and part of me is inclined to give at least some credence to the idea that it’s nature over nurture. (This idea was the one that got me into political trouble at my last blogging job, so if you all decide to beat up on me, please give me warning!) We can talk about this more either here or in future podcasts.
Anyway, give it a listen. I hope you all enjoy it as much as I did. As always, feel free to sound off like a WOWO.
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I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
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I can see errors on both sides.
Some males are too extreme and I prefer them not to represent me as an Asian male.
Some females are still ignorant and don’t understand.
If anything it’s asian unity that needs work not impulsive actions.
I’ll chime in a bit later but what I personally see is that there is a big difference between “how things should be” as opposed to “how things actually are.”
I mean, all the evidence that Eva used has actually confirmed what I’ve been saying yet no one refuses to work on possible solutions that work within the confines of that reality.
Oh, one more small note: I’ve noticed that there is an mentality that’s rife in the Asian American female of feeling the need to cater to the feelings of white men. As in, they’re afraid of offending them.
Even at the expense of offending their own.
Another excellent podcast! I just finished listening to it so I still need some time to gather my thoughts, but kudos to C-Bruhs, Eva and Sylvie for lending their female perspectives to the debate of IR. I believe by having some Asian American women join in this discussion, it goes a long way to acknowledging this as a very real problem in our community, something that can no longer be passed off as just the misgivings of a few Asian American men.
IMO, one of the reasons for the bitterness and anger among some AM is because their concerns on this subject are constantly rejected or swept under the carpet. Sure, the the Asian American community faces a lot of challenges, and we should not just focus on any one thing at a time, but neither should we ignore the voices of a minority simply because some of us have other priorities. Most people just want to go about their daily lives and that’s fine. But for those who want to make a difference, either through blogging or real life advocacy, you have to find a little compassion within you even for the things you do not think directly concerns you.
On that note, I believe both Asian men AND women need to develop a stronger sense empathy for each other. It is ridiculous to divide our issues along gender lines. If there are many AM who feel neglected by AF, it is not just their problem, it is our problem. To simply dismiss their concerns as mere jealousy or some false sense of machismo is a mistake. I don’t think anyone enjoys being bitter and lonely all the time. There are real reasons behind the anger and if we want that to change, we gotta keep the dialogue going.
Anyway, I’m gonna listen to the podcast again. In the meantime, keep them coming Jaehwan.
Yes uRB4N i agree, and thats the problem. But i think its mainly about power and control, since the apex of power, wealth and control in Caucasian dominated societies lies in white males. So of course females would be wary of offending the most powerful men in the room….in practical ways, for example, job interviews, employment, housing, promotion, etc if you openly go against white males you will be a target, trust me I KNOW!!!!. So the only way to resolve that is to decrease the power of white males, white privilege, white supremacy, through increased ASIAN IMMIGRATION into the caucasian dominated countries. That way, the “white” ethnic group is no longer the majority, no longer the standard, no longer the NORM and it becomes more difficult to hold us down, because more numbers is more power. Thats a street lesson, but its really true in other areas of life. Alternatively, westernised asians just need to have as many children as possible to outpopulate the white ethnic group in caucasian dominated countries.
Personally, i think that asian men that exclusively date white women are just as bad as asian women who exclusively date white men, from my experience, both are confused about their identity, and generally have ffed up self esteem issues by placing greater value and emphasis on “whiteness” of their partners, while devaluing “yellowness” or the asianess of others. HAS ANYONE NOTICED that asian people who exclusively date “white” people are usually the most self hating mofos around, who really believe in “equality” “democracy” “freedom” etc and actually ashamed of the YELLOW STAR on their face? jesus….colonised minds right there.
So there you have it. Let me say and I accept responsibilty if you want to rant and hate me for it.
Personally I think that the main problem is society and asians have let it affect them. Assimilating too much without the slightest effort to compromise a way to keep your ethnic identity or help the next generation or the lost immigrant who used to be your grandmother.
Without Immigration covering up for multiculturalism, it would all be a big lie!
The prejudices are against asians, self racism has been instilled in every one of us.
At some point in time we have adopted these prejudices towards ourselves and each other practicing the same ignorances of mainstream society on each other eg. cultural misconceptions, racial stereotypes, emasculation, gendered racism.
Maybe nobody has really invested the necessary cultural education and humanistic traits to beat the anti-asian psychic diseases of the 21st century.
The bond between AM and AF breaks when our ethnicity is decommisioned.
The society we live in encourages individualism, therefore our responsibilities are reduced and our self centered-ness has become the highest priority.
And in this modern day and age of materialistic standards and superficiality, everything is mass manufactured by media even in love. Even the ideas of romantic partners are dictated by the media….no it does not favor asian people.
Don’t under estimate racism, it conveniently shifts and changes every way to suit the white patriarchy, after all it’s their colonized country and we are the perpetuated foreigners.
So I wonder…are we asian or what!? why is the AF and AM not harmonious? AF and AM have always been together in genetic memory.
I’m not telling you all to be racist to other people, I’m telling you all to stop betraying each other!
Where is the damn unity!!
Leon,
Thanks for the kind words–even though I hardly did anything on this one! Unless you’re talking about my sound editing, which, of course, is totally top class.
After hearing this, I got some cool activist ideas for actually changing the gender divide through institutions. These ideas are still in development, but of course I’ll share when I’ve got them down.
if the asian girl were to ask the asian guy out on a date would it seem desperate?
or maybe be seen as a lesbian with that kind of confidence?
what is the criteria for the “romance” or “man” qualities?
romance is a fantasy, some goals may be set too high for a qualified asian guy.
when people are professional, or “confident” then there is a class divide.
when people date one girl, pretty asian or ugly asian, white, black, hispanic, the perception is the point. to make the guy desirable, to other women like their prettier, sexier, hotter, friends. black, whites, hispanic guys do it to get other “choices” for the next day. this is the problem that grows, girls are used not necessarily sexually (maybe) but still as a sign of power.
There is the institutions we need to have a part in and there is also the media that influences.
I think there needs to be more asian media that represent us.
Western media and their ideals needs to be challenged when it comes to something ‘Asians’ because they rob asian people of their ethnic identity and representations.
Mainstream media and culture expresses only white interests.
IF you’re an asian and you can only speak english and read english.
Everything you learn about romance, love etc you’re likely to have a person envisioned especially some of the asian women I know who can’t imagine themselves with asian guys and don’t find them attractive at all.
Similar asian guys can be just as affected in teh same way but not in the greater effect because asians guys with white girls aren’t as widely accepted in the social norms.
But really, it’s asian and asian couples I am concerned about.
Asians should cut their losses and concentrate on what needs to be done next.
[if the asian girl were to ask the asian guy out on a date would it seem desperate?]
Of course not, there is no rule for this.
[romance is a fantasy, some goals may be set too high for a qualified asian guy.]
Other than the fake handsome white prince stories or the more modern Hugh Grant image.
There is always a common sense standard for all men to live up to when it comes to women.
They don’t have to be extremely high.
Byron, I started to give more viewpoints that address what the Asian women in this podcast asked and talked about. It’s too bad I forgot what I said.
(To those that don’t know, Byron and I chatted privately for another 45 minutes after the podcast ended)
One point that caught my ear was when Sylvia (I think) stated that she didn’t agree with the idea that just because an Asian woman isn’t with an Asian man means she doesn’t support them.
Again, I disagree and here’s the reason why:
One of the primary concerns of Asian America is the emasculation of Asian men by white society, specifically white men. As we all know, white patriarchy has stipulated that Asian men are sexually inept and not worthy of consideration. Therefore, when Asian women date white men, they are essentially giving credence to that mentality by proving it in daily life.
While an Asian woman can mentally and actively supporting Asian men while going out with a white man, there is absolutely no consistence in preach and practice.
Take it like this:
How much credibility would you give someone who claims to be heavily involved in PETA and protesting for animal rights but offers the explanation that what she does in her private life is her own business when you catch her eating an extra bloody hamburger?
None.
Because what this person is doing is preaching for animal rights but at the same time, sabotaging those efforts.
How can one possibly put any type of faith and a sense of reliability in you? Like I said repeatedly, I would rather every human being be consistent and not disjointed. In this case, if you date white men, stop saying you support Asian men. Like the old adage goes, practice what you preach.
Now, this brings me to another point:
Almost no Asian woman in America will preach that men of their community are superior to other men as far as they’re concerned. We’re sub par (at worst) and equal to other men (at best). From what I’ve observed from other non-Asian women, they already place “their” men as the best. It’s assumed.
This already gives Asian men a slow start because their own women don’t place them higher on the ladder like how other women put their own men. This leads to the women putting their men higher on the priority ladder in every respect.
But just incase if you want to know I came across an article about IR participation and it has dropped in the last 5 years.
So whatever you see now it probably coming to a stop. However these IR couple will become increasingly more noticeable now since every AA has a heightened awareness and we are getting the message out.
Many Asians women are reconsidering their choices due to the increasing number of immigrants so the market for AM is better. Especially since the emergence of the new asian century. Makes economical sense right?
It is actually becoming more valuable to be asian even in a white country and asians are becoming more influential to other asians.
Step up up your asian skills especially if you are Chinese! plenty of opportunities!
Also, much respect to C-Bruhs for bringing up a very important question about how would Asian women feel if the situation was reversed? While she asked how Asian women would feel if 45% of Asian men were involved with white women, Eva and Syl pretty much jumped around the question and didn’t really give a relevant answer.
To make it a bit more detail, I think C-Bruhs should have added the details of:
1.) Constantly having your sexual self worth attacked by white society
2.) Have many Asian men be some of your biggest detractors
3.) Have your presence virtually eliminated from society
4.) Give you a much harder time to be deemed acceptable by non-Asians
5.) Adjust social norms so that women have to be the “chaser” in the dating scene so more white women approach Asian men while Asian women are looked upon with disapproval from white men.
Granted, this will never happen. My point is that Asian women might have a “small” idea of what it “might” feel like, it will never substitute for the real thing.
I can drink from a glass of water and tell you that it’s cold. Until you drink from it as well, you’ll never know how cold it really is.
uRB4n,
I’m not denying the problems surrounding interracial dating and sexuality for Asian Americans, especially Asian American men. I’m very aware of the issues.
My only appeal is: can we please not be assholes when discussing these issues?
And that’s for both AA men and women. If a discussion about these topics is limited to one gender being told that they’re at fault, that something inherent in them is the cause of this problem, we’ll never get anywhere.
I’m not personally going to take the blame for a societal problem simply because I’m Asian and have a uterus. But I’m more than willing to civilly discuss this topic with anyone who’s willing to be civil to me as well.
when these are the times when “asian” is the new “blonde”, you become an object of desire. an object mind you, a possession. asian guys knew what you are to them.
we dont bribe you with gifts, we do it with heart; its not cheap, its stuff our moms told us to do.
yeah ok, money, power and all that is good. but do you the asian girl wanna look like a gold digger?
sex? everyone wants you for sex, that is a given.
love? asians knows asians very well. we are taught love by mama.
short asian guys come from short moms too. look at all the 5’8 guys and 5’0 girls on heels, tell me that is our fault.
asian frats promote a strong asian male image right? some times it gets skewed.
given selection, that is understandable.
like my ex was in iowa, 1 of maybe 12 asian families; you will be related; in a few months your asian bf is your cousin just cuz.
I think there’s a general perception by Asian women that Asian men have the desire to control them through their choices in dating and marriage, and that’s a misunderstanding. It is not a matter of ownership, but of kinship. We believe that Asian women should be our strongest allies and admirers, and they should. This does not mean that Asian men are automatically entitled to Asian women. After all we should also be your biggest allies and hold up our share of responsibilities.
It is more like a natural bond that comes from having similar history, culture, values, and struggles. We like to think you belong to us as much as we belong to you. It does not mean we think your choices should be limited, more like we’re hoping that you place a greater value in Asian men because of those things we share. That is how we build a stronger Asian American community.
Again, we’re not trying to take away your choices. That would be unrealistic since we’re such a small minority in a country of so many different cultures. Some mixing with other races is to be expected. But every time an Asian woman don’t chose us, we feel the loss. And every time she chose white, that makes the sting even worse because of the many reasons uRB4N have mentioned.
Totally non-sequitur, but every time I read something about IR dating I want to ask this question but always forget.
How many of you have a sibling of the opposite sex with whom you have discussed IR dating, emasculation, fetishization, etc.? What were the results?
i try to be possitive, ir relations are kind of over rated, i try to consider the parents feelings, but its more about the guys, who are the guys? its always the guys.
guys approach things so bluntly, based on everything they have experienced, a tourist attitude. the girl is made a tour guide; i watch this all the time and it is demeaning right? if the asian girl can kick his ass; then maybe its fair.
i would like to watch.
the stupid response it that “he is not like them” “he is different” socially advanced? check out the porn collection over there.
yeah ok, i dont like the overly possessive guys of any race. i feel as a gender we are falling back.
Okay, does anyone understand what the hell Kobe is talking about in both of his posts? Please translate if you do.
I’ll be really careful about being an asshole but I don’t think I’ve been a tool while talking about this.
I said that I only have a possible solution for Asian men, not Asian women. There is no way we [Asian men] can win that argument with out it looking like we’re trying to control Asian women. It’s a trap.
Only Asian women can come up with a solution for their own demographic. Right now, it’s not even on radar screen.
What I *did* say that it was both the fault of Asian men *and* women.
There is a lot of discussion from Asian women that Asian men, such as myself, who believe that dating white women for racial reasons is incorrect. I wish to counter that the reason why this is happening is *strictly* based on a lost sense of manhood strictly based on something Asian women are doing.
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Thus, I see the Asian female demographic as being the main cause of sexual emasculation and a massive destructive force in the self confidence of Asian men in North America.
To make matters worse, the logic of Asian women is to date out because Asian men don’t have enough confidence and date white men. The inability to use logic and grasp the situation is mind boggling to me.
The idea of Asian men dating out is a much more tangible solution to addressing the situation. I’m a fair person, if someone has a better solution that has proven to work, feel free to post it here.
I am a person that makes no apologies for my opinions and apologize if it comes off as abrasive. I entertain real results, not “I have a dream” speeches that only preach ideologies which make you feel good with no roadmap to a solution. If the latter was viable, we wouldn’t be talking about this.
Like I said in the podcast with Byron, I have personally seen a huge change in attitude and self esteem when Asian men see other Asian men with non-Asian women.
hi sorry, a few ppl mentioned that this is a time of “the generation of evil”.
the whole idea of relationships are so skewed. whatever the combination is now, it just means “who you are having sex with”.
bf/gf, xbf/xgf, bf/bf, gf/gf. (right).
evolution of the social human (male, in most cases)
stage 1: the Asexual time period consists of maybe 15 years.
stage 2: the “Buy”sexual time period consists of maybe 15-30 years
stage 3: the “Try”sexual time period consists of 15 – 30 years {viagra willing}
girls for some reason run through this pretty quick, different bio clock.
um… yeah, what mT said….
Remember me? I’m Siegfried! I was on the Fighting 44s before I got kicked off.
Speaking of the Fighting 44s, I’m glad that crap is off air. All it did was try to control Asian Females to not to date white males. Dialect called me a “useless moron” That is what he is. I’m glad he is letting the forum stay up so people can read how I was attacked. But I digress.
The trouble with Asian males that they try to bully the Asian females into their twisted point of view. The women see that and dislike being controlled. I’m glad they are waking up and have their own opinion. If you want to date Asian women, then you should have an open mind.
None of the girls on the Fighting 44s will never say that they don’t find white men attractive. Even Mao girl who was bullied off the forum, never said that she didn’t like us. And Ellen Cho thought that some white athletics was handsome. I’m sure that even Jade Dragon would marry me in a heart beat.
I digress.
What business is it of anyone who Asian women date? Yes, I like Asian women. I used to date white women, but now I date totally Asian. It has nothing to do with fetish. It is more of preference.
The more you try to control Asian women; the more she will turn to us and we will be waiting.
Thank you, Siegried. Your little statement is a shining example of passive-aggressive behavior, simultaneously attacking Asian men AND women. Sadly, your little tantrum merely demonstrates your excessive narcissism and craptacular self-esteem. I wish more white men like you would speak up, so everyone in the world would wonder why some women are chasing such primo douchebags. Normally, I’d let people run their own blogs, but since I like Jaehwan, I’ll volunteer to official renew your Useless Moron badge. Carry it with pride.
Haha…Leon, feel free to say whatever you want! We’ve got a loose moderation policy here, so while it enables to us to get comments from the better end of the spectrum, it also brings in comments like Siegfried’s.
Siegfried:
“Remember me? I’m Siegfried! I was on the Fighting 44s before I got kicked off.”
I remember the name, but to be honest, I don’t think you and I ever communicated, so I really don’t remember who you are or what you did. I will say this–Dialectic is a very fair admin, so if you did something that pissed him off, you probably were acting like a useless moron. Again, I don’t know who you are, but I tend to trust his (and Lopan’s, and Ellen’s, and Box’s) judgment on stuff like this.
“None of the girls on the Fighting 44s will never say that they don’t find white men attractive. Even Mao girl who was bullied off the forum, never said that she didn’t like us. And Ellen Cho thought that some white athletics was handsome.”
What’s your point? Is it a crime to find white people attractive? I’ll never say that I don’t find white women attractive either, and I too have seen some attractive white female athletes. So we’re all even, right?
“I’m sure that even Jade Dragon would marry me in a heart beat.”
Too late. She already married the person who you say called you a “useless moron.”
“The more you try to control Asian women; the more she will turn to us and we will be waiting.”
I don’t remember why you got banned, but you sound like a stalker.
Siegfried, did you get a little too excited typing your useless, moronic post?…Because that could be one possible explanation for your horrible English.
Haha, yes, the gravatar works. Yeah!
I find most investment bankers to be pretentious, power hungry, money grubbing, arrogant douchebags…no offense. But uRB4N does make some great points, and I generally agree with his premise.
Sigfried,
I think your post is a little off. It seems to me there are two different issues at hand with IR’s and specifically the asian male perspective on them (NOT to hijack this podcast/post and turn it into ‘the asian male perspective’ as apparently has happenned in the past). It seems that a lot of Asian men don’t have a problem with Asian women dating outside of their race (I know – there are exceptions, I hope my views don’t offend you.), but that the issue is Asian women who claim “I won’t date Asian men” as a blanket statement.
I’m not sure there are many people that would begrudge someone finding love with another person – regardless of their skin color. It’s the blanket assumption that anyone can be presumed to be ‘undatable’ before they’re known on an individual level. That appears to be a legitimate complaint to me – especially when it’s taken to the racial/cultural level. No-one likes being shoved into a box, and when it’s done on the racial level – by someone of your own race in a blanket way, I can see where someone would be offended.
I think for a woman to say “I like white men” is no different than a guy who might say “I like redheads” to that point, Sigfried is allowed his preference. While I might say “I like brunettes” that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t date a blonde. If a woman says “I wont date asian men” It’s different, it’s gone beyond preference, it implies that even if the Asian guy was their perfect match in every way, he still wouldn’t be good enough. That’s beyond preference, and I can see where that would offend an Asian male – it would certainly grind on me.
I’d also have to say your statement of:
“The trouble with Asian males that they try to bully the Asian females into their twisted point of view.”
is as blanket of an assumption as a woamn who refuses to date based on race. It’s absurd to think that all asian men are opinionated bullies trying to force their ideas on their women. Do you have any Asian friends? I’m guessing no if you’re able to type something that ridiculously narrowminded.
Hello, Siegfried. Your gravatar is looking mighty attractive and fine today.
“The trouble with Asian males that they try to bully the Asian females into their twisted point of view.”
Well.
The trouble with white males [is] that they believe Asian females are their entitlements.
Robert is going to call me out now on the blanket assumption. That’s okay.
Nah Akrypti. While I do disagree with your statement (as a blanket) for certain, I can understand responding in kind to Siggy. I can chalk your blanket statement up to righteous anger
Sigfried, you’re being ridiculous.
There are some people who feel very strongly about preserving culture/ethnicity when it comes to their mating choices. There are Blacks who only date/marry Blacks, there are Chinese who only date/marry other Chinese. There are White people who only date/marry other Whites. In general, society accept this choice as one that preserves a variety of culture and ethnicity.
For example, have you considered that if every Asian woman on Earth had decided not to mate with an Asian man, that at some point, you wouldn’t have any pure Asian women to chase after? It takes TWO ASIANS to make an exclusively Asian woman… or have you forgotten logic and biology?
But back to my point, there are also some people who’s primary concern in selecting a mate is based on more NON-ethnic criterea. These are open to coupling with persons from a wide range of ethnicities or cultures. This idea, although somewhat new, is at the least, widely tolerated, if not yet enthusiastically accepted in every quarter.
But your “preference” arguement falls rather clumsily between two barstools. You are obviously not seeking to preserve a specific historical/ethnic culture, nor are you romantically open to a wide range of other ethnic cultures. In your case, you have excluded the idea of coupling with a member of your own ethnicity and have now focused exclusively on females of the “Asian ethnicity.”
Your explanation for this is that this is your “personal preference.” But that is NOT a preference. A preference is not exclusionary. If I prefer Coca Cola, it doesn’t mean that I won’t drink Pepsi or Orange Crush. If I say that I prefer readheads, that doesn’t mean that I refuse to date blondes, it just means that I happen to favor redheads. But you have virtually turned it into a religion. It may not be racism, per se, but it is at least racialism.
@Siegfried,
“…the more she will turn to us and we will be waiting.” You sound like a fucking serial killer.
While I appreciate the sheer ingenuity of deepening rifts in other people’s racial groups because you think it will get you more ass, kindly take it elsewhere. We’re trying to have an actual discussion here.
While I find these discussions important, it’s also just tiring on the psyche. At least, to me it is; there’s just so much to digest. Ed wrote “Where is the damn unity?”
Good question, where is it? Is it possible? I dunno. We’re not a monolithic block. We all have different experiences and perspectives. And when this subject comes up, we’re all a little too defensive. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the ladies’ viewpoints, because I think it’s good to get a perspective other than one from those who pretty much agree with you. but I have no idea how we can become a little less reactionary unless we have these types of dialogs and debates.
In the end, it’s about compatibility and being happy. There will always be those who exclusively date white guys or white girls for whatever reasons. Some I may agree with, some I won’t. And there’s nothing I can do about it if someone doesn’t want to listen, or at least be open to my viewpoint. All I can hope for is that there will come a time when they gain a true awareness that there’s nothing wrong with dating within , or without, but more importantly dating within.
On some level, you have to be the best person you can be and just be who you are. I once went out with a Eurasian girl who did not identify whatsoever with her Korean heritage, even thought he map of Korea was on her face! Instead, she identified more with her Irish heritage and had spent time living in Europe. There’s no way you can change her outlook, that she was ignoring an essential half of who she is. She was culturally whitewashed through and through. I can’t fault her for it, or call her a sellout or whatever, even though I didn’t like it much that she had zero interest in her Korean heritage. That’s just who she is.
I agree with what Leon wrote, that we could all be a little more empathetic with each other.
Honestly, even if you use the example of John Lennon and Yoko Ono; the whole idea of IR is a big problem, supposedly Yoko caused the break up of the Beatles.
Tragic; possibly up to his assassination, he even had a heavy eastern philosophic influence.
In another version of IR, look at Paul McCartney and Micheal Jackson; after that collab; a conversation between the two led to Micheal buying the entire Beatles catalogue of songs at the time. Royalties of a legend in the hands of the King of Pop; this was hip hop before even Aerosmith and Run DMC.
The pain goes on, Sony acquires Micheal Jackson’s Lyrical assets as collateral for a larger long term re financing deal. this was such a steal at 200 million, but radio airplay goes down for oldies; Mike and his troubles with little boy friends; and electronics are more portable; Blu Ray is packed with details, but try staring at it with an ipod.
Relations of 2 worlds are difficult, there is too much prejudice; you end up subconsciously thinking if gender roles, where do Jon and Kate stand? who is the housewife? is the asian male an engendered species?
i hope you guys follow my line of thought. the mixed kids cant choose just one side, they need both. How do Jewish people look at this? or even the Hispanic communities? these are all mixed. Should there just be one dominant culture in the person?
(I apologize – I haven’t listened to the entire podcast, single mom and all that but I think I’ve read enough blog posts and comments here to get the gist of the issue)
I was married to a white man, divorced him. Now I am dating a Korean man. I am Korean. I also went to an international boarding school in India.
Looking at my past dating history, I have to say that the attraction for me wasn’t so much the looks or racial features. While in boarding school, I dated mostly Asian boys (Indian, Iranian, mixed) but not east Asian boys… a couple of European white boys (British and Swedish). The one thing that’s common was who belonged to the popular crowd, i.e. dominant crowd with power.
Then, while living in Minnesota, I’ve only dated white men. 1) Only white men have asked me out. Over the last 20 years that I’ve lived here, no Asian man asked me out. 2) According to census, I think Asian, specifically Korean, populations number is pretty low percentage.
There’s also the phenomenon of Asian men walking to a table of women and making sure that they hit on all women except the Asian one.
I don’t think it’s an issue of gender divide. I think it’s an issue of something more primal, i.e. survival instinct. I know that we are humans but if you zero in to one out of one hundred available potential mates, you are not going to be mating or procreating very often. I’ve noticed that many of my Korean-American friends on the west coast, i.e. CA area, are married to other Korean-Americans. There is a significant and dominant Korean-American presence there.
Here’s another theory. If you grow up with parents who are like all the other kids’ parents (racially, culturally, whatnot), you would want to emulate their relationship and be attracted to the same race. If you grow up with parents who seemed so FOB and all you wanted, as a teenager, was to fit in… well, how do you fit in? You marry/date the dominant race/culture/whatnot.
Anyway. Just two cents from the gal who finally got asked out by a Korean man (except he isn’t from Minnesota, he lives 2000 miles away). And it wasn’t even about the race but I was finally in a place where I wanted someone who understood me, my history, my story… and not about dating for survival or within the dominant/popular crowd.
What are you guys? Nazi or something? What the hell does it matter what race a person is? Why are you trying to keep your race pure?
I just find Asian women more attractive than any other. So what’s the big deal?
We are all AMERICAN! A melting post! That means people from all over the world. This is the 21 century, not the 1930′s.
There are many white guys who date only white women, there are many white guys who date people of other races. I have dated some other ethnic groups, but I prefer Asians over all. I don’t particularity care for black women. They are not attractive to me. For example, Michelle Obama is not pretty at all and comparing her to Jackie O is ridicules.
I like reality Tv. I saw Big Brother last season and the Amazing Race a few days ago. Seeing hot Asian women on the screen (scantly clad) is like waving a red flag in front of a bull. It excite us. So quit complaining about it.
To the guy who complained about my English, I don’t give a damn you’re not my English teacher. If you don’t like my writing, don’t read it.
Jeawan:
I feel sorry for Jade Dragon. Dialectic will have take her to stupid movies like Transformers and Star Trek. She needs a real man, not a comic book geek.
His only experience with sex is with his hands. He finally moved out of his parent’s basement, or is he going to take Jade Dragon there.
When Jade Dragon get’s tired of that loser, she’ll run to me.
He so ignorant that he keeps a failed website open hoping that it will come back to live some day. Well that game is over.
Mama Nabi,
You make some interesting points about power.
I’ve been trying to make time to think about ways to use institutional power to help “fix” this divide. As many of the commenters here have mentioned, it’s sometimes unhealthy to get fixated on the topic. We’d be much happier if we were talking about how we’ve taken steps to fix it and help the divide. I’ve got some ideas, and I hope to talk a little more about the power that Mama Nabi discusses in her post. We can get take small steps in fixing the “divide” in a way that should work for everyone.
Oh, and one of the joys of running a site that doesn’t require registration for comments is that we can all kinds of morons here. You guys and gals all have the right approach in dealing with Sigfried. If we can just use Siegfried’s dorky comments as a means to crack funny jokes or illustrate that racism that exists in the world today, we can treat his stupid comments as a way to either enjoy a joke or to think more deeply about the silent enemy we’re fighting.
Siegfried, please find somewhere else to play. No one here likes you.
Mama Nabi,
thanks for sharing your experiences. I think what you wrote makes sense about wanting to fit in with the pre-dominant cultural around you. No doubt, one’s environment affects our behavior. Like I stated before, compatability has a lot to do with finding happiness in a partner. I’m glad you found someone who understand your story.
Kobe,
I have a cousin who is bi-racial and I asked her that question about identity. She told me that for her, personally, she chooses to identify herself as Asian mainly because of the Asian family influence was stronger when she was growing up (her mom, my aunt, is white), but that she recognizes her other self because she’s BOTH. When she’s with her mom’s side of the family, then she gets to experience her other heritage in that way. She doesn’t seem conflicted as to who she is and feels comfortable in her own skin.
jaehwan,
true, discussing this social dynamic wears out the psyche just because there’s so many facets to address. at the same time, it’s necessary to keep this discussion on-going so that our voices can finally be heard and found by others. I know, I know, this topic has been beaten to death. But the drumbeat still needs to echo throughout the vastness of cyberspace so people can finally see and begin to understand there is a problem. I would hope that discussions like this DOES begin to stir the consciousness of more Asian males and females so that they too can recognize that this dynamic exists in our community. Some of them don’t have awareness yet of how this divide really affects us as a whole. Hell, I’m a good case in point. I always had a funny feeling about these social dynamics and it wasn’t until several years ago I started to look online did I find a plethora of discussions about issues that affect us as Asians Americans.
I realized I wasn’t alone and there were Asian sisters and brothers giving voices to what we experience and feel as Asians.
Sigfrie, from one cracker to another, that spongy mass in your skull that tells you when it’s time to use the bathroom really shouldn’t be the same organ that you use to comment on an asian activism blog. Your arrogance about Jade Dragon (no clue who that is, but I’m pretty sure she thinks you’re an asshat) is mind boggling. Self belief is a wonderful thing, but when you come to a discussion that’s tense between the members of the same race (asians in case you’re not following along) and you interject your arrogance, you should expect to meet resistance, actually, I look forward to reading the responses I’m sure you’re about to get.
@mama very interesting post, you bring up some very interesting points, referencing basic human evolutionary needs models in ways that at least I hadn’t considered. Glad to hear you’ve found happiness, from some of your other posts, it sounds as if you’ve had some rough patches in the relationship world.
Sorry, I’m trying to stay out of this one (other than my responses to Sigfrie – how can you not?) as I realize I’m on the outside of this discussion. Very interesting to read / listen to tho.
I have to agree with mojorider on this one. While for some people (us), this topic seems like a dead horse that has been beaten, hung, processed into library paste, and eaten by 5th graders, for the vast majority of people in the United States [world?] it’s very very new.
While many young people have probably noticed an unusual affinity between white males and Asian females, I doubt they have asked themselves why this pairing seems to be so popular, much less wondered what the other side of the same coin entails. Without that sort of awareness, this issue will never be resolved because people don’t recognize its existence.
For those of us “in the know,” it becomes our responsibility to spread awareness by contributing to discussions such as this one, and also raising this topic and making people aware when appropriate. That last part is very difficult, because it immediately enervates the speaker. However, it’s a very necessary step if we wish to resolve this issue.
Sigfreid, you keep digging your own grave here, just like on the 44s…
You keep trying to put forward this idea that you’re just expressing your personal preference. For example, “I don’t particularity care for black women.”
Well, I’m not quite sure how far this statement goes, so I’m inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.
But then you go on to say: “For example, Michelle Obama is not pretty at all.”
OK fine… but Michelle is the President’s wife not a movie star. She looks good for a 40+ year old mother and non-model/actress type. She’s not supposed to be the universal proof case for Black beauty.
But THEN you go on to say, “Comparing her to Jackie O. is ridiculous.” which takes it far afield from your own personal tastes, and speaks to how you think that other people should see her. So it’s no longer about YOUR PERSONAL TASTE, it’s now about your stupid ideas about how everybody else should see her and compare her.
“Ridiculous”??? Why?? because YOU don’t “particularity care for black women???”
What you’re saying here is that people who do happen to see her as attractive or classy are being ridiculous. And that’s the problem with people like you—all too often your so-called “personal preferences” end up as racial value judgements that you then wish to impose on other people.
i often wonder if i am also ignored like sigfried, guys want to JUST HAVE SEX with asian girls. i see this crap with 13 year olds, the stuff they want to believe. i mentioned a few good things in my post, at least i thought they were.
girls are allowed to date who ever they like, but just dont do it in spite; and seriously, how many of these couples may be trapped? kept silent on rapes?
So, is anyone going to take some time to address my points?
Or shall we all do the same dog and pony show where we all touch upon the topic at hand for a second, chime in with our personal life experiences, get distracted by an internet troll, go back to talking about what an idiot the troll was, and then finally letting the thread die with no input whatsoever?
I love wasting my time on a topic that will eventually get restarted again in a few months per the usual Asian American MO.
you know what? i wanna try to date a white girl, but i dunno if they are defensive as another girl. theyre was this japanese guy with a girl that even i liked, kinda petite brunnette, healthy.
is financial security an issue for relationships? physical appearance? just ask every female to date asian guys, there will be rejection, but you want to to see if there is acceptance. i dated a russian girl for a while, and we just wanted to make out for the whole time. and then there was a latina, really hot. and even one black girl, not much on that one.
have the money and the time to spend (with caution) on the girl. 10 no’s = 1 yes on average.
Urb4n:
You compare female APA activists who date white men to animal rights activists who wear fur coats. (The precise example you gave was a bloody hamburger, but at least this is the essence of your first point.)
As for your second point, it stops the conversation, because you say if Asian women never experience what Asian men experience, then they’ll never get it. And since we don’t get it, the implied thesis here is that we don’t have the right to gripe.
What did you anticipate me, an Asian female, to say to that second point? I probably shouldn’t say anything, because I just won’t “get it.”
But back to your first point. You’re affirming the consequent. If Suzie Wong dates a white man, then Suzie Wong thinks Asian men are effeminate/wife beaters/not good enough. Suzie dates a white man. Therefore Suzie thinks Asian men are effeminate/wife beaters/not good enough. That’s the fundamentals of your logic, which you then take a step further by citing that conclusion as the reason why Suzie Wong will never be a credible APA activist. With that kind of logic, no gay man could be a feminist. And that’s simply not true.
Epilogue:
Akrypti to Hubby: “Honey, this guy on the Internet is saying that Asian women who date white men and claim to be activists are like animal activists who wear fur, or eat hamburgers, and stuff. How do I refute that?”
Hubby: “You don’t. He’s right.”
I think this is the toughest knot to untangle — whether or not AF can support AM while being romantically involved with a WM. Is it possible to say that both sides correct?
First, we are of course setting aside the total self-haters who refuse to date Asian men. I assume we’re talking about AF who legitimately understand the plight of Asian men in this respect and sympathize with , stand up for, and support Asian men. Also, these Asian women are dating white men.
I forgot who wrote it on the Fighting 44s (maybe even elsewhere), but there was a quip that basically said that the majority of AF/WM relationships aren’t of the white worshipping and/or rice chasing variety. There just happen to be two people involved romantically in a healthy way. I support this premise. Basically, the WM would date WW (and probably has), and the AF would date AM (and probably has), but circumstances just put the two together this way in the meantime.
Can an AF involved in this kind of relationship turn to her boyfriend’s friend who’s making fun of AM masculinity and tell him off? Yes, of course, and I absolutely believe her intentions. However, just how credible would she be? I think that’s the ultimate question. Very few people would take her very seriously because, like urban mentioned, her actions do imply a sort of hypocrisy, even if it’s totally coincidental and unintentional. She could be extremely aware, articulate, and persuasive, but she will never have a significant role in the activist community or be lent much credibility by the lay community. It’s just impossible.
Think of it this way — Barack Obama won like, what, 95%+ of the black vote in 2008? Clearly that means practically all black men and women voted for him. What if he were married to a white woman? He would be the same person, have the same intelligence, be able to speak to the black community in the same way… but what percentage of black women do you think would have voted for him? And really, you can’t blame them, because it’s a valid criticism.
URB4N:
“I love wasting my time on a topic that will eventually get restarted again in a few months per the usual Asian American MO.”
Actually I have another post coming up tomorrow at 11 am Pacific. I’m ahead of the pack; everything on WOWO moves at warp speed. BOOOYAHH!!!
Akrypti:
My post on trying to come up with some solutions is coming up in 11 hours…woohoo! I think a solution will become apparent soon. Or at least a possible path.
“Akrypti to Hubby: “Honey, this guy on the Internet is saying that Asian women who date white men and claim to be activists are like animal activists who wear fur, or eat hamburgers, and stuff. How do I refute that?”
Hubby: “You don’t. He’s right.”
Haha…that’s great! You’re husband is awesome. Seriously, y’all should drop by Portland sometime when it’s UFC night.
Etain:
“Think of it this way — Barack Obama won like, what, 95%+ of the black vote in 2008? Clearly that means practically all black men and women voted for him. What if he were married to a white woman? He would be the same person, have the same intelligence, be able to speak to the black community in the same way… but what percentage of black women do you think would have voted for him? And really, you can’t blame them, because it’s a valid criticism.”
On my 11 am Pacific time post tomorrow, check out the link (sorry, I’d post it up now, but I wanted to give Jimmy Aquino some time in top position. If you find the article sooner, please keep my secret!). There will be a comment in the comment section that says that Obama, in Dreams of My Father, wrote that he could not marry a White woman because he was specifically seeking out his roots. According to the comment, he broke up with a White woman over it.
Has anyone read Dreams of My Father? Can anyone vouch for this?
I actually did read Dreams of My Father and am embarrassed to say I don’t remember that part. My book is currently with my mom so I can’t look it up, either. If it’s true, and I have every reason to believe it is, then I admire him for his self-awareness. Truly an insightful person.
Or maybe he knew he would need black female voters in the future
But I think the corollary is valid. If Obama married a white woman, but kept talking about the need for black men to recognize black women as viable romantic partners, how credible would he be?
Okay guys,
I got a little off the topic. I’ll act appropriately for now on.
Let’s have a mug of beer and chill out. This is the way of me apologizing.
I do have strong opinions on this subject too since it effect my love life.
I do agree what the women said in the podcast. They are pretty intelligent.
I saw Laura Ling and Euna Lee’s husbands on Larry King. They both were white.
One had a little girl that you could not tell if she was half Asian or not.
First of all, I’m not here to get into some arguments with the ladies, so I’ve avoided jumping in to address Urb4n’s points but here goes…
I think there IS an inherent hypocrisy for AF’s to say that they support AM’s while dating out. BUT, that doesn’t mean the message of what those AF’s are saying are inherently invalid. It does, rather, lessen the credibility of the messenger. But I will try to be careful with my judging anyone. Or at least to try to judge slowly.
I tend to see this as a rather gray area. Because, first of all, I don’t know the circumstances of that AF and why she’s dating out. Maybe she is of the brainwashed mindset that “white is right”, maybe she has contempt for Asians. I dunno; I think there may be a myriad of reasons for that outcome and I’m not living her life so I don’t know enough to come to a definitive conclusion. Yet, at the same time, I’d like to see some action on the part of AF’s who say they support and are sympathetic with the AM’s plight show some equal opportunity to some of their Asian brothers when it comes to dating.
yet, this is America, it’s an open society and you’re free to do what you want. I’m not going to control or seek dominance over Asian women, that’s ridiculous. Am I really going to call my sister a sell out and a whore because she married a white guy? And praise my brother because he married a white girl? Am I suppose to shun my nephews and nieces who are bi-racial? No, of course not! It is what it is. I’ll give the AF’s the freedom to be who they are and to make the choices they want in life. I might not like some of those choices, but I can’t stand in anyone’s way. You have the freedom to fuck up your life or lead a happy one, it’s your choice what you want to do with your life.
having said that, still, there is this huge imbalance, this dynamic that affects us all. There are these circumstances that still affect a lot of AM’s. I mean, there has to be this recognition that it tears our community apart, when one set is more accepted by white society than their counterparts. AF’s, I would hope, come to realize this affects their brothers, their fathers, all the males in their own families. For once, I’d like to walk down the streets and see some really beautiful Asian woman with a really handsome Asian man. NOT some really beautiful Asian woman walking around with some goofy looking white dude.
One Asian woman told me that where she was growing up in Los Angeles, not one Asian male asked her out. Ever. She always dated Latinos and white guys. So I dunno if I have any possible solutions, but maybe the first step is for AM’s to be more assertive and talk to the AFs you see when you’re out at a bar or nightclub. Don’t assume anything about her just yet. Maybe that will change the perception some AF’s have about AMs?
I think there’s an assumption that it’s only Asian men that would be skeptical of the credibility of an APA woman activist that dates white men. Surely mainstream society would also look upon that as suspect and not take them too seriously? I would suggest that most people, Asian or otherwise, would find such an activist unconvincing and that alone would be sufficient reason for Asians to question the wisdom of having such a person as an advocate.
Just imagine the scope of the task. One would have to convince an entire society and it’s media that is already heavily invested (both financially and politically) in demeaning Asian people in general and Asian men in particular that, despite marrying/dating a white man, you believe that demeaning portrayals of Asian men are inaccurate. They would laugh at you.
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Okay, it’s up! (See above)
I generally agree with Mojo and Terri.
Etain,
I’m going to have to check out that book. I heard Obama was a total militant back in the day.
I disagree.
At this point in time, just the existence of Asian women with white men enforces negative Asian male stereotypes because of *very* specific social conditions. If Asian men weren’t so emasculated by white male society and if Asian men dated interracially at almost the same ratio as Asian women, all of this would be moot.
The problem is that neither of those two conditions taking place *along* with the massive interracial marriage and dating of Asian women.
So, just walking down the street helps valid the inferiority of Asian men set forth by white men.
uRB4N, I agree with your points, but not your solution. I believe it will help the general self-esteem of Asian men if they see more AM with WF, but you can’t expect all AM to start dating WF anymore than you can expect all AF to stop dating WM. And if everybody end up chasing after white ass, there won’t be much of an Asian American community. I also think it’s a mistake to cut off all the women from us, but then our goals are differernt. I want to close the divide that seperate the genders. Sure, there are few AF who are aware of this IR issue and fewer still who agrees that it’s a problem. Then there are some who are still unaware and some who are sellouts that we love to hate. But if we’re hoping to reach out to those women who are unaware and bring them over to our side, we need the few who are actually with us right now.
The problem with this whole IR issue is that it has generated so much mistrust on both sides that most AF won’t believe in AM, no matter what we say. I’ve seen this issue resurrected countless times on various forums and not once have I ever seen a single AF change her mind. Just a lot of shouting and finger-pointing and nothing getting resolved. That is why I think it’s a big step to a have a podcast with just AF speaking on this issue. Even though they do not agree with all the points we bring up, at least they’re willing to talk about it, which in turn will hopefully lead to more AF listening and become aware of how this issue effects the community.
i am sorry, i dont write well, its a popular trend with me.
i want to see asian ppl date asian ppl, is that fair? i mean like ABC with ABC is that fair? or even FOB with ABC and not have some gender politics come into play, just speak the same body language.
we need to promote the right way to approach dating, where the guy is not possessive or the girl is so submissive.
i think going dutch is insulting, but i cant buy her a car for lunch. be reasonable.
there is so much sex tourism involved, and this is the problem, non asian ppl look for it.
ever notice that a lot of the IR relations; have the girl go all the way to look like a magazine model; that they can parade around town and say “yeah im taking her home with me” <– ppl like sigfried personify my angst.
WHERE ARE ALL THE ASIAN MALE REPORTERS? are they ballsy enough to be news anchor? every channel in every town pretty much has an AF with WM cast; african female with white male; and even latina.
ok, i watch some chinese news channels and at times they have 2 female anchors.
???
my friends in toronto, af dated wm in hs;
neglected at times; she becames lesbian; dates wf; arguments every other hour; she resorts to porn online; i hang with her bro, the man is crying inside.
asians have IQ, i want more for them to have EQ, and make it a standard for asian ppl to develop EQ.
i need help myself at times.
who can teach these things? a lot of times bruce lee may have caused more probs than solutions.
I’m confused.
What is the rational Asian women use as an excuse to mistrust Asian men?
The only statement I heard was that Asian men are hostile to Asian women. Here’s the kicker; it’s something Asian women are doing that are causing Asian men to be hostile to you.
Let’s dig up this old post and start talking about it again.
I think the whole IR thing with AF/WM is so overblown. What I mean by this is that people think these couples generate a high social value which is falsely perpetuated by the media, and is meant to put down AMs when it comes to dating, and the White Patriarchy thing.
But in reality, and in my honest opinion, a lot of Asian women in America are not all that attractive, and the ones dating WMs seem further away from the attraction scale. These couples are usually isolated from the norm, and seem like an awkward pair in most social settings. Now there are AMs who are upset to see these AFs with WMs. We all know that! But again, for what? These couples tend to be at the bottom of the social totem pole.
Now for a AM to date a WF is definately no “walk in the park” in most places of the country. They will get a lot of threatening stares of disapproval. Not from other WFs and AMs of course, but from the rest of the population, and this includes other men of color. I suspect it can get ugly, if it becomes a trend like the AF/WM pairing. This harks back to how Asian men are seen as a challenge to the establishment.
Are these the unattractive wallflowers that you mean?
(all who have married or date(ed) White guys.
zhang-ziyi
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NIzvae4_BPE/TeQaeBcTDiI/AAAAAAAAANw/ZS7-XF1ZA6g/s1600/zhang-ziyi.jpg
Alice Kim
http://media.photobucket.com/image/Alice%20Kim/keno2012/alicekim002.jpg
Wendi Deng
http://images.forbes.com/media/2008/07/11/billiewives_04.jpg
Ami Chua
http://www.zimbio.com/Amy+Chua
Gong Li
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_y0LzUe91Lds/TQthz8wbydI/AAAAAAAAB_8/enrHdBdmjr4/s1600/gong+li+pretty.a+jpg.jpg
Maggie Cheung
http://www.palzoo.net/file/pic/user/Maggie-Cheung.jpg
Michelle Yeoh
http://relaunch.blog.mtvasia.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/91602363.jpg
Deborah Lin
http://www.bittenandbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/deborah-lin-2.jpg
Kiana Kim
http://lifeisreallybeautiful.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/15.jpg
Bai Ling
http://www.ucelebrities.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/bai-ling-images2.jpg
Coco Lee
http://english.cri.cn/mmsource/images/2009/09/02/4690coco03.gif
Kristi Yamaguchi
http://www.hercampus.com/sites/default/files/kristi-yamaguchi_0.jpg
Tia Carrere
http://www.freeadsindiabiz.com/_mm/_d/_ext2/43468/big_Tia%20Carrere01.jpg
This is from that: http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-race-affects-whether-people-write-you-back/
My theory is that the majority of white woman are in the problem
You’ll find similar results from studies on this stuff.
White men get more responses. Whatever it is, white males just get more replies from almost every group. We were careful to preselect our data pool so that physical attractiveness (as measured by our site picture-rating utility) was roughly even across all the race/gender slices. For guys, we did likewise with height.
White women prefer white men to the exclusion of everyone else—and Asian and Hispanic women prefer them even more exclusively. These three types of women only respond well to white men. More significantly, these groups’ reply rates to non-whites is terrible. Asian women write back non-white males at 21.9%, Hispanic women at 22.9%, and white women at 23.0%. It’s here where things get interesting, for white women in particular. If you look at the match-by-race table before this one, the “should-look-like” one, you see that white women have an above-average compatibility with almost every group. Yet they only reply well to guys who look like them. There’s more data on this towards the end of the post.
My own theory is that white women and what I have noticed and overheard in everyday life is that majority of white women will look down on a white woman who is with an Asian man as and i quote “an ugly loser”. There is the perception that she can’t get anyone else and is using her the idea that Asians are obsessed with whiteness to get a boyfriend. The biggest obstacle to white women who date an Asian man is not white men but in fact overwhelming majority of white women. No woman wants to be seen as a loser or attractiveness by her peers.
I think running game on Latina’s gives better results as they seem to be far more into Asian guys at least what I have noticed.
King, You are posting celebrities and high profile people. But in reality, most everyday AF/WM couples are at the bottom of the social ladder. And many of those famous women were either married or dating AMs before they went to WMs.
To Response, I don’t know about you, but I’ve seen some fairly attractive WFs with good looking AMs. In fact, the better looking AMs are the ones with a shot at WFs. Are you telling me that they get the flack from other WFs because the guy is seen as ugly? I know of the study which you are talking about. How about the speed dating experiment conducted at the Ivy League school where they found Asians were generally unattractive? Asian men were judged the least physically attractive, and Asian women received lower ratings than other women. This tells you why most AF/WM couples are of low social standing, and why many AMs usually don’t get a chance to date a WF.
By the way, Response brought up a good point. Asians with Eurocentric -Western facial features will blend in better with Whites, and thus are more accepted by the mainstream.
I don’t like to post pics of Asian celebrities to make a general point, because they don’t represent the average Asian person. But this is the reason why many WFs find this Asian guy attractive, and this goes back to Response’s point about women liking men who resemble them.
http://takeshikaneshiro.org/pictures/d/4605-1/Takeshi+Kaneshiro+with+Armani.jpg
@ Chr..
So, what you’re then saying is that this is only a problem with the wildly popular celebrities, but then it skips down and only effect the Asian girls at the bottom of society who no Asian guy would really want anyway? That sound implausible .
In my own observation, I have at times crossed paths with the WM/AF couple cadre. I can assure you, that the girls who I have known who are dating White guys are (for the most part) quite attractive, well educated, and successful. I’m not saying that what you have observed doesn’t exist, but I am saying that if it’s rule, then there are PLENTY of exceptions to it, including the celebs at the top of the pecking order.
King,
“So, what you’re then saying is that this is only a problem with the wildly popular celebrities, but then it skips down and only effect the Asian girls at the bottom of society who no Asian guy would really want anyway? That sound implausible”
Yes, this is the gereral consensus in the Asian community. AMs who complain about this trend are at the bottom with them. Unfortunately, there are a lot of these guys who give the rest of us a bad name.
You want to talk about exceptions. I’ve seen more stunning Black women than Asian women here in America. And from what I’ve observed, being a client-based accounting professional, most AWs who date or marry WMs tend to earn significant less than their counterparts who are with AMs. In fact, most of the WMs I’ve seen earn less than their AF partners. But I’m not surprised by it, because women are now beginning to outearn men, and those AFs tend to give WMs a free pass on a lot of things.
Well, beauty is of course, always open to differing perception and interpretation, so it can’t be argued, just appreciated. However, I suppose someone would have to do a survey/study to determine which party earns more money in the majority of WM/AF couples.
I’ve personally know (as friends) four WM/AF couples, and in each case, the Asian woman made more than the White man—in most cases, a LOT more. But that’s anecdotal, of course.
My cousin is married to a WM who is pretty well off. Also there’s Rupert Murdoch and Mark Zuckerberg who are much wealthier than their AFs. But I think in general you are probably correct. As AFs become more educated and more financially, they are much more likely to marry WMs than the lesser well off AFs. When WMs become more financially well off, they tend to marry more attractive looking WFs. If you combine these two trends, a lot of AFs would have to end up with not as well off WMs.
@ JT
And by the numbers, Asians (demographically) have higher earnings than Whites, so that might also explain some of it.
JT, Let’s not talk about the Rupert Murdoch and Wendy Deng couples, or even Woody Allen and his adopted Korean daughter. The average AF/WM couple in America is what you’ve described. So I think most AF/WM couples are of lesser social standing. Most high earning AFs whom I’ve come across, are with AMs who are also higher earners themselves. Don’t be fooled that the grass is greener just because of what the mainstream thinks. That is, AFs with WMs are a better couple.
King, the media has falsely advertised that AF/WM couples are better than the Asian couples, when in reality, most of them are not. And many of these couples tend to look awkward in those Asian crowds, and they especially try to avoid any social scene dominated by WFs. And of course we know a lot of WFs can be both very attractive and outspoken, which would be incompatible with their low profileness.
my family is littered with WM/AF couple where the AF outearns the WM. Some of them dont even work. I used to joke with my sister everytime we used to pass a homeless bum on the street. I’d go hey look- He’s just your type.
Chr:
Ummm…I disagree. I don’t think that this is a general consensus in the Asian community. I’ve heard people say it, but I don’t know if people generally believe it. All of those women who King mentioned, for example, are quite attractive by most people’s standards.
As for Asian guys who complain about the race preference: We ALL complain about it.
(King, I think Gong Li has always remained a Community member in real life, even if not on-screen.)
@ Wowo
Oh! But there was a post entitled “Ziyi Zhang and Gong Li with white men” in the Forums section of The Fighting 44s.
I’m sure of Zhang
http://fisherwy.blogspot.com/2009/01/zhang-ziyi-vivi-nevo-beach-sunbathing.html
but I guess that I can’t be 100% about Gong Li though.
Is this her with John Cusack?
http://www.chinese-tools.com/china/people/2008-07-18-gongli.html
Byron, I never said those celebrity women were not attractive by the general consensus. I’m saying the average run in the mill AF with a WM is not. If you walk around NYC and see those AFs with WMs, most people don’t see them as Hollywood stars. They usually look plain/boring if you ask me. More often than not, the couples are completely mismatched. Picture a tall lanky White guy with a short Asian woman.
I just think the complaints have gotten out of place. Everytime, it’s another one of those crybaby guys who thinks it’s a serious problem, and it’s not.
Chr,
Sure, but that was just an example. I can’t think of why there would be any kind of cutoff in looks that somehow divided famous and non-famous women. For every Zhang Ziyi, there are probably thousands of women who look almost like her but who miss the cut for whatever reason. From my own personal experience, I don’t think there’s any difference in average looks between the Asian Female Celebrity Club and the Asian Female Community Club.
King,
I’ve only got one word and one word only for you.
NOOOOOOOOOHHOOOOHOOOSAYITAIN’TSOBOOHOOHOONOO!!!!!!
http://shanghaiist.com/2010/07/01/gong_li_divorced_husband_for_john_c.php
Lol!
Yeah, I must admit she’s a hard one to lose… especially to John Cusack!
This was her previous guy.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6fyaIP-cj0o/TCQLkzoaHGI/AAAAAAAAQvU/Q6qAruWkbdw/s1600/gong+li+husband+huang+hexiang.jpg
There is no cutoff. Just plain looking couples with what I see. Nothing spectacular about them, and so Asian guys should stop complaining. I don’t know, maybe it’s just me. There is a discrepancy between the Asian guys when it comes to their view on the subject matter. Many are upset, and some don’t care. Some do well in the interracial dating scene like Urb4n says it. These are the guys that care the least.
@ Chr..
Most couples period, are “plain looking couples” because most people are average and normal. That’s what average means. Most men look average, most women look average. Therefore, most WM/AF couples look plain — just as most AM/AF couples do.
“To Response, I don’t know about you, but I’ve seen some fairly attractive WFs with good looking AMs. In fact, the better looking AMs are the ones with a shot at WFs”
Where I live in Sydney by far the most common Interracial couple is white men with asian women I have not seen enough AM with WF to make an overall conclusion however the ones I have seen look a bit like the female version of the nerdier white guy ive seen with asian women. Being into anime seems to be common.
I agree with King though that most couples are plain as most people are average in looks.
The point I was trying to make before is that the white female is seen by her peers as taking a drop in status by being with an asian. The real issue is that many white women do not see Asians as equal at least in terms of attractiveness. Thats why you have stupid saying like “good looking for an asian guy”.
A good looking white guy is seen by majority white women to be much more desirable than a good looking asian guy. Especially in any social scene dominated by white females who as you say and I agree can be very attractive and outspoken.
If you don’t mind Chr.. where do you live where you see asian guys usually getting good looking white women… I’d love to move there please
Apologies for my english it still sucks
I think most AMs dismiss AFs that are with WMs as plain looking or not very smart or whatever to make themselves feel better. I think the reality is that the better looking and more educated AFs are more likely to go out with WMs than the not as good looking and lesser educated AFs.
“white females who as you say and I agree can be very attractive and outspoken.”
Hardy har har! Nothing against White women, but they are not all that outspoken, and are certainly not more attractive than other ethnicities. White girls were never my thing… If I had to choose outside of my ethnicity, first choice would be a dark Indian woman.
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfdddkgZRZ1qbq3juo1_500.jpg
But that’s just me.
King,
People should stop calling Asian men paranoid. For us, the three inevitabilities are death, taxes, and prominent women joining the Asian Female Celebrity Club.
Also, dark Indian women is cheating. She almost looks black!
@ Wowo
I was surprised by just how MANY Asian celebrity women had gone over (after doing a little digging). Celebrities are seen as role models and trend-setters in every culture. that’s why I can’t understand Chr..’s assertion that the phenomenon only effects celebs and loosergirls while having little effect on those in between.
“Also, dark Indian women is cheating. She almost looks black!”
Ha! Alright… you got me! I’ll just pick another one then (to make you happy).
http://i35.tinypic.com/2hyky69.jpg
King,
Yeah, I don’t understand that assertion either. Celebs have more money, but they’re really just an extension of a society’s character, perhaps even more so than society as a whole since they have the money and means to get what they want. My observation has been that this trend exists across the board, with certain sub-groups being an exception.
“Ha! Alright… you got me! I’ll just pick another one then (to make you happy).”
Oh wow, an Indian woman who looks like Halle Berry!
To Response, I never said there was a place where AMs were getting WFs. AM/WF couples are not as common as the other way around. I’m an accounting professional who’ve dealt with quite a number of AM/WF couples as my clients, so I making my judgment call based on what I’ve seen. And these aren’t your average couples. They tend to be highly educated with an earning power of more than a 1/2 million in yearly income. I’m from NYC and interracial couples are rare here, with the exception of the AF/WM couples. Maybe in the land down under Ozzie, it’s different there from what I’ve been hearing. That is, Asian men have it much worse in Ozzie land.
I said that Asians are generally considered less attractive in the eyes of the Western world. They’ve done research on it, and found that WFs and other non-Asian females tend to disregard AMs the most when it comes to dating. AMs are generally the least attractive of all the types of men out there. At least, this is how the Western Anglo countries see it.
JT, I beg to differ. Most of those couples are plain looking or mismatched physically. I’ve seen more AM/AF couples that are better looking. But again, Asians are considered the least attractive out of all the races here in America. I think AMs should stop complaining, because it just doesn’t lead to anything.
King, Although Black women are considered one of the least desirable. I’ve seen more stunning BFs than AFs in America. Everyone has their own view of what is attractive, but there is a general consensus that Whites are on the top of the pyramid when it comes to looks. Or else, we wouldn’t see Asians getting facial surgery to look more western.
Byron, Asian dudes just need to take the chill pill, because the IR disparity isn’t disappearing anytime soon. There are more important and productive things to worry about.
@Chr
Which part do you disagree with? That AFs that date WMs tend to be more educated or they tend to be better looking? I know for a fact that more educated AFs are more likely to date and marry WMs. As for their looks, I can see where the WM is plain looking or below average looking. However, I can’t really think of any plausible reason why the less attractive AFs would be more likely to date WMs. On the other hand, I can think of quite a few reasons why the more attractive AFs would be dating WMs.
“Byron, Asian dudes just need to take the chill pill, because the IR disparity isn’t disappearing anytime soon. There are more important and productive things to worry about.”
The disparity will go away if AMs broaden their horizons and look beyond only AFs. The disparity exist because too many AMs want only AFs and too many AFs don’t want AMs.
I agree that AMs should broaden their dating horizons instead of clinging to AF.
They should marry non-AF too, and then teach the kids Mandarin, Korean, Japanese, whatever.
Fuck Gong Li’s ex-husband is ugly.
It’s not uncommon for Asian female celebrities to sleep with men in exchange for money or roles, nor is it uncommon for them to marry rich men to live in the lap of luxury.
So why should we be bothered if they date or marry white guys for any reason?
Someone said that they are role models. Well, they’re not role models to me, and I think that its going to be very soon when even children figure out that just because someone is given air-time or print space it doesn’t mean that they have anything worth saying.
I think they mean they are role models for other AFs. I think it’s actually better to view AFs and AMs in the US as distinct group, not really part of the same community, since there really isn’t much common ground and overlapping interests between the two.
JT,
“Which part do you disagree with? That AFs that date WMs tend to be more educated or they tend to be better looking? I know for a fact that more educated AFs are more likely to date and marry WMs. As for their looks, I can see where the WM is plain looking or below average looking. However, I can’t really think of any plausible reason why the less attractive AFs would be more likely to date WMs. On the other hand, I can think of quite a few reasons why the more attractive AFs would be dating WMs”.
You have to understand that not all AFs are desired by AMs. Many of these AFs broaden their horizons and go for WMs. I’m not saying all the AFs who are with WMs are unattractive. I know some AFs who also say the ones that go for WMs are usually not considered attractive by the Asian community.
“The disparity will go away if AMs broaden their horizons and look beyond only AFs. The disparity exist because too many AMs want only AFs and too many AFs don’t want AMs.”
It easier said than done. Every Asian dude who makes this recommendation to others says it like waving the magic wand. That guy “Response to Chr” already said WFs don’t give AMs a damn chance so why bother, that by his own experience or viewpoint. And there are many other Asian guys who think the same.
@ CR…
“The disparity will go away if AMs broaden their horizons”
This statement rigs true to a degree. The main problem is that Asian men always seem to go about this in the wrong way (which works against their own long-term self interest)
@Chr
“You have to understand that not all AFs are desired by AMs. Many of these AFs broaden their horizons and go for WMs. I’m not saying all the AFs who are with WMs are unattractive. I know some AFs who also say the ones that go for WMs are usually not considered attractive by the Asian community.”
If what you say is true, then AMs wouldn’t be complaining about AFs going to WMs since those are the undesirable AFs they didn’t want in the first place.
“It easier said than done. Every Asian dude who makes this recommendation to others says it like waving the magic wand. That guy “Response to Chr” already said WFs don’t give AMs a damn chance so why bother, that by his own experience or viewpoint. And there are many other Asian guys who think the same.”
Well the alternative is a large number of AMs will not have a girl. In that sense, dating a WF or whatever is easier than the AFs that won’t be available.
Lets not discount that there are probably many AMs who are popular with women. It could be because of their looks or their charm or even the power and influence that they have.
When we talk about dateless rejected AMs aren’t we talking about the sad sack AMs who tend to be older, and also too set in their ways?
I was in PUA. On the other end of the spectrum of idiotic (me) and sleazy men there were also those who would not even do basic things like take care of their appearances, develop their conversational skills and charm, or even go to places to meet women.
So these sad sacks can’t get a date. Who cares? Nothing of value is lost. If the odds are against you in America then go out of the country to get a proper dating life! You won’t? Tough, don’t cry to us about it cos we bored of hearing it.
JT,
“If what you say is true, then AMs wouldn’t be complaining about AFs going to WMs since those are the undesirable AFs they didn’t want in the first place”.
My take is that the AMs who do complain, feel undesirable themselves. They probably fit the stereotype of an ugly, scrawny, geeky or unsociable AM. We all know that less attractive people get the shaft or get discriminated based on their looks. The “sour grapes” reaction “that only ugly AFs are with WMs” works both ways. One is a defense mechanism for those who can’t get a date, and the other is based on truth.
I believe non-Asian women writing off Asian men is not an entirely a race thing. It’s more of a physical thing. As studies have shown, Asian men are generally viewed as less attractive compared to guys of other races.
Raquel,
“Lets not discount that there are probably many AMs who are popular with women. It could be because of their looks or their charm or even the power and influence that they have”.
How about having a big bank account? *laughs* Seems like a lot of AMs believe this is the only way for them to get women. Seriously, there are AMs who are popular with women. There are just in the minority status. And when we mean popular, we are talking about guys who could date all colors in the rainbow. I don’t think PUA is the solution to the AM unpopularity. Many things needs to be taken into consideration to solve the problem. I for one believe in developing a power base, or a niche that defines AMs, like Black men in entertainment and sports. Unfortunately, we don’t have something here that can define us successfully. Oh yeah, being overrepresented in the Ivy Leagues and Wall St isn’t gonna do it for us. Maybe we haven’t been ruthless enough to define a power base. This could be it!
On a lighter note, I hope “Response to Chr” thinks this is good news.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/fashion/weddings/jill-renaud-edward-fu-weddings.html
We all know Asian men are always judged on a higher plane. They at least need to be an overachieving top dog to score a high quality White chick. I don’t think any ABCs of Attraction PUA tactic can convince us otherwise.
Graduating law school at 22? Getting a job at Davis Polk in THIS economy? That dude is a super superstar:
“In May, Mr. Fu, 22, received a law degree cum laude from New York University. In October, he is to become an associate at the Manhattan law firm Davis Polk & Wardwell. He enrolled in Rutgers at the age of 15 and graduated cum laude. His father, who is retired, was a medical physicist at Mount Sinai Medical Center in Manhattan. “
@ Chr..
“My take is that the AMs who do complain, feel undesirable themselves. They probably fit the stereotype of an ugly, scrawny, geeky or unsociable AM. We all know that less attractive people get the shaft or get discriminated based on their looks. The “sour grapes” reaction “that only ugly AFs are with WMs” works both ways. One is a defense mechanism for those who can’t get a date, and the other is based on truth.”
Sounds like projection, haven’t you been complaining for most of this thread that only ugly AF are with WM? While not a fan of this huge amounts of this combination even I admit I’ve seen some good looking AF with attractive WM, they are not majority but they exist. From my own life my father is French and mother Korean however they are both average looking and I think this is pretty common.
My point I raised before was this : If non-asian females tend to see asian males as less desirable why would you imagine that it is the top quality non-asian females going for asian males? I don’t follow your logic.
Wouldn’t it be the opposite that if asian females tend to view non-asian males as more desirable you would see the most attractive asian females going for non-asian males?
Feels like I’m being the devils advocate here but want your opinion
“I believe non-Asian women writing off Asian men is not an entirely a race thing. It’s more of a physical thing. As studies have shown, Asian men are generally viewed as less attractive compared to guys of other races.”
Would like further explanation on this, I think most people would agree that race is linked to physical appearance. Talking about averages here.
In answer to your other points I visited New York for 2 weeks last year and the number of WM with AF couples was higher there than in Sydney so don’t know where you get the idea its somehow worse here.
Regarding your link I think its like when some white guy is using the zihi zhang with vivi nevo or any of the other one of asian female celebrity club with their white boyfriends/husbands to try and prove they are desirable. Exceptions don’t invalidate the rule.
@Response
The logic is fairly simple actually. Because generally there’s less ‘attraction’ between AMs and Non-Asian girls, those Asian guys that are deemed to be ‘attractive’ to non-Asians girls would be the more attractive ones (ie. normally not your average AM). Some for the other side, since generally AMs are attracted to AFs, the non-asian girl that are considered to be attractive in these AMs’ eyes would tend to be the prettier ones.
In brief, when there’s less ‘fetish’ involved (or in fact more discriminated against), it’s the more attractive ones (for both sides) that would break down the racial barrier. So there’s much less of these couplings, but much more likely they would be to be an attractive couple compare to a typical AF/WM couple.
@ N
“In brief, when there’s less ‘fetish’ involved (or in fact more discriminated against), it’s the more attractive ones (for both sides) that would break down the racial barrier.”
Can you explain this point further.
E.g So the most attractive black/white/latina female who would have far more options than an average looking woman of their race would be more likely to date and attractive asian male than an attractive man of their respective race?
Am I reading that right?
Are you factoring in the strong same race preference of all groups on non-asian women?
The other side to this which is the uglier side is the non-asian girl would be less desirable to her own race male and willing to “date down” to find a mate. I believe its called racial-beauty exchange theory. This is more of a possibility for white females than for black or latina females. Due to their perceived higher status to many Asian males.
@Response
Nope, you’re reading it all wrong.
It means that if you’re a White/Latina/Black women in general, you’re less likely to date a average Asian guy over an average white/latino/Black guy because there is no preference/fetishes. However, they might prefer an attractive Asian guy over an average White/Latino/Black guy.
Of course, it takes two to tangle and unlike our counterparts, Asian guys in general have a strong preference for Asian girls and is very unlikely to be attracted to an average non-asian girl over an average asian girl. It’s a criticism thrown at us in IR debates, that in fact we are being too ‘obsessive’ with girls that shares similar features to us.
AF/WMs is a different ball game because of the fetishes/preferences involved, so an Asian girl is likely to be attracted to a average or even below average White guy because of their preference and vice versa. So the logic is that there is a far bigger number of AF/WM couples over an AM/WF. But in general the AM/WF couple is likely to be higher on the attractive scale due to the preferences for their own race for both the AM and the WF.
The logic is there and simple. But whether you’re willing to believe it is a separate matter.
@ N
Columbia University — with research and editing assistance from Harvard University, MIT, and Stanford University — conducted a study on racial preferences in interracial dating.
From the study:
“For male partners, our main finding is that Asians generally receive lower ratings than men of other races. In fact, when we run the regressions separately for each race, we find that even Asian women find white, black, and Hispanic men to be more attractive than Asian men.”
The final analysis is that women have a stronger preference for dating within their own race than men, but men still have a preference for dating within their own race. The exception is Asian women who, on average, have no preference against dating white men.
The reason you see so many white male/Asian female couples is not because white men prefer Asian women (in fact they prefer black and Hispanic women over Asian women), but because Asian women like white men as much as they like men of their own race. On the other hand, women of other races view Asian men as the least desirable race, so Asian men have fewer opportunities to date interracially themselves.
The preference is one way. White males on average do not prefer Asian females. There is no vice versa at play.
Hence you would be more likely to see White males who are average to below with above average Asian females due to this preference. On the flip side you would be more likely to see above average Asian males with average to below average white females.
This would be consistent with racial beauty exchange theory, females from a higher status group who do not meet conventional beauty standards (ugly, overweight, etc) are more likely to date an Asian male.
“Asian guys in general have a strong preference for Asian girls and is very unlikely to be attracted to an average non-asian girl over an average asian girl.”
Source? From what I understood from the study men had a very weak same race preference. All men.
@response
We’re going around in circles, ain’t we? Everything you posted suggests that there are going to be less AM/XF pairing. Therefore for an Asian guy to be considered to be attractive to a non-asian, he must have some kind of redeeming quality to break through that barrier, no?
And no, most men are still more attracted to their own race, and especially Asian guys. So I’m guessing that you know very few Asian guys.
Every Asian guy I know prefers Asian girls and is dating one or married to one.
Response, I never said attractive AFs don’t go for WMs. I say most of these couples are average or below. And I don’t think there are all that sexy either. Picture a tall good looking White dude with a cute, yet juvenile looking Asian women who isn’t even on his shoulder length. This is the best they can get. Or 2 tall attractive interracial couples where the Asian woman is at least 5’10. Most Asian guys prefer shorter women because of their average height. So what’s there to gripe about? But I can understand why some Asian men complain, because they can’t even attract Asian women.
N,
” Therefore for an Asian guy to be considered to be attractive to a non-asian, he must have some kind of redeeming quality to break through that barrier, no?”
I’ve heard complaints from Asian women who said that good looking Asian dudes are being taken by Whites girls. Now good looking AMs are a smaller segment of the Asian population, if we really want to admit it. And maybe this accounts for the smaller number of AM/WF couples. The AM is usually a high quality guy of some sort to break the barrier.
Bryon, That guy is a nice looking dude w/top credentials. I gather his wife with her good credentials isn’t some STD laden club hopper whom he met with the ABC guys of attraction. *laughs*
Good for him!
“I’ve heard complaints from Asian women who said that good looking Asian dudes are being taken by Whites girls. Now good looking AMs are a smaller segment of the Asian population, if we really want to admit it. And maybe this accounts for the smaller number of AM/WF couples. “
Once again, people with above average looks are a smaller percentage of EVERY ethnicity that is what above average MEANS! The same thing is true of White guys.
@ Chr..
The points I believe your looking over is that somehow the WF/AM?
1. That all white females are of similar value so not making the distinction between attractive/unattractive, creepy/normal women. All that seems to matter is that they are white.
“White dude with a cute, yet juvenile looking Asian women who isn’t even on his shoulder length. This is the best they can get.”
You don’t think best they can get also applies to white females going for Am?
2. Most wf/am involve white female who are of low sexual market value capitalizing of many Asian males white worship in order to get a mate. (see chart below)
“I’ve heard complaints from Asian men who said that good looking Asian women are being taken by Whites guys.”
This reads more like what I’ve heard than your claim:
“I’ve heard complaints from Asian women who said that good looking Asian dudes are being taken by Whites girls”
Are you sticking with Asian women now complaining about Asian guys in interracial relationships?
This would be so hypocritical its almost unbelievable with Asian women the only group of women with a preference for another race of men and involved in the largest number of IR marriage and relationships not only in North America but possibly worldwide.
To the point where it is now seen as a widespread fear among Asian males that Asian females are going for white males.
http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2010/06/18/vancouver-s-asian-men-fear-women-prefer-white-guys.aspx
“Asian men in Canada often fret that the laws of supply and demand are working against them when it comes to hooking up with the right woman.
Many of Metro Vancouver’s 400,000 Asian men, more than half of whom are ethnic Chinese, express two major complaints about the North American dating scene.
One: They are convinced that Asian women would rather go out with white men.
Two: They worry that white men prefer Asian women.”
@ N
From the Racial Preferences in dating study by Columbia University
On Tabel 2A and 2B, this is the order of perferences,
White women: 38% yes to white men; 27% yes to black men; 27% yes to hispanic men; 16% yes to asian men
Black women: 89% yes to black men; 63% yes to hispanic men; 48% yes to white men; 31% yes to asian men
Hipanic women: 50% yes to hispanic men; 42% yes to black men; 39% yes to white men; 23% yes to asian men
Asian women: 45% yes to white men; 44% yes to asian men; 42% yes to hispanic men; 40% yes to black men
White men: 50% yes to hispanic women; 49% yes to white women; 41% yes to black women; 35% yes to asian women
Black men: 67% yes to black women; 63% yes to hispanic women; 59% yes to white women; 43% yes to asian women
Hispanic men: 49% yes to white women; 46% yes to hispanic women; 38% yes to black women; 29% yes to asian women
Asian men: 53% yes to white women; 47% yes to asian women; 38% yes to hispanic women; 37% yes to black women
According to this, it means there is not only white men have no asian fetish (asian women last), the asian women is least desired of them all.
It means it is actually the asian men have the white fetish. (white women first)
How so?
According to your above posted data, Asian women also have a white fetish (white men first).
ROFL what the HELL is with all those statistics and numbers?
The bottomline is: If you’re a man living in a major metropolitan and cosmopolitan centre and you worry about who OTHER people are dating, that means you are a loser and a bum who never has sex with women.
@Response
Mate, you really need to look at how to apply those stats. It’s only takes 5% of White Men to have an Asian fetish to fulfill the fetishes of the 50% of Asian women with white fetishes.
Second thing is that how well do those stats represent reality? I really have trouble picturing a higher percentage of Asian men interested in white girls compared to Asian Women? Yeah right.
@ N
This study was conducted by Columbia University, Harvard University, MIT and Stanford University.
This was an in depth two year study from those reputable universities which is more reliable than either your or my personal observations, wouldn’t you say.
While some Asian men may be offended and in denial because the results from the study are different from their personal observations or what they want to believe. I don’t put much merit in “personal observations” (or denial) when I have the reliable study, numbers and figures I can look at.
Facts are more dependable than unproven personal observations.
@Response
Lol, Numbers and Stats often don’t reflect reality, and models are never entirely accurate. Otherwise we wouldn’t have the GFC and Lehman Brothers wouldn’t go bankcrupt – they spend millions on analysis and reports and see where they ended up. And I can ensure that commercial reports (eg. Risk management reports for insurance companies) are much more accurate than those Academic studies – especially anything to do sociology.
And Yes, I know my observations would be more accurate than these findings (especially after a few drinks), because I interact with real humans and have real interactions with Asian guys and not some ticks and crosses on a questionaire. You rarely just a real or true opinion unless the other person is truly comfortable.
Secondly, there’s a big difference between what you say you’ll do and what you actually do – that itself will result in a large error.
If you actually have a large number of Asian Male friends, ask them what they think about the accuracy of that study. Would they really prefer an average white girl over an average Asian girl? Do the test for yourself, talk to real people and don’t just believe everything that you read is gospel.
But I fully understand where you’re coming from though. We all have a bias.
I’m obviously bias towards my Asian brothers.
You’re obviously bias toward your heritage of having a white father and Asian mother.
We don’t think the same and that’s fine.
King, Asian men represent a small segment of the population, and so any good looking Asian guys within it, is even smaller.
Response, Dude, I never said “I’ve heard complaints from Asian men who said that good looking Asian women are being taken by Whites guys”. Good looking Asian dudes don’t need to feed on scraps.
Yes, I think most AF/WM couples are of low social and attraction value.
Just ask the Facebook guy, and of course you and he would disagree with me.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Dwoo79z5mio/Tj1U9tHMCPI/AAAAAAAAVEE/CIHo0uRhL5I/s1600/mark%2Bzuckerberg%2Bgirlfriend%2B%25283%2529.jpg
A lot of them also have major hangups that normal people don’t want to know about. I’ve seen some of them come to my firm with financial and mental pains, because the WM is a low earning wage bum who can’t get a real job to support their big city – NYC lifestyle.
Seems like Response want to think that all desirable White women don’t like Asian men, and I can now understand the reason just from his heritage. And he has the nerve to talk about “denial”.
Response,
“Most wf/am involve white female who are of low sexual market value capitalizing of many Asian males white worship in order to get a mate”.
I can say the same about white dudes with asian women.
Most af/wm involve white male who are of low sexual market value capitalizing of many Asian females white worship in order to get a mate.
And this holds more truth because of their prevalence.
Lol I’m still chuckling at these goddamn fools who manage to pull STATISTICS out for some casual internet discussion on inter-racial dating.
Who the hell does that, and what are they trying to prove?
Fucking sucka XD
@ N
I don’t think we are going to get any further with our arguments so I agree to disagree.
@ Chr..
“I can say the same about white dudes with asian women.
Most af/wm involve white male who are of low sexual market value capitalizing of many Asian females white worship in order to get a mate.”
I feel there are way more factors at play here, however if you accept that then based on those figures you would have to accept that the bottom feeding effect would also exist with wf/am couples and at higher levels due to Asian males desiring white females the most but with white females desiring Asian males the least.
In effect it would be the mediocre whites both male and female who benefit most from this as the most attractive of white people would be with one another.
Response,
I’m beginning to think that a lot of your posts don’t make any sense! You first mentioned that White women are the problem because they don’t find Asian men attractive because of peer pressure. I tried to rebuke you by saying that there are some White women who are with Asian men. You then asserted that only the least desirable White women are with Asian men. I, at least from the get go said most AF/WM couples have low social value. Remember what I told you, Asians, in general are perceived the least attractive in the Western world. Why would any handsome upper crust White guy go for an Asian woman, when he has hot White females to choose from? I’m not talking about those mismatched couples or those celebrity ones who’ve been thru with their own lot, before they settle for each other. People tend to date/marry others of similar attractiveness. I don’t see ugly White men with hot White women that often.
I would like to know how you are “gaming” Latinas in Australia. *big laugh*
Response, you are attempting to figure out human attraction using statistics and “logic”. Is it a wonder you never have sex with women?
@ Chr..
“I tried to rebuke you by saying that there are some White women who are with Asian men.”
Did I say that it doesn’t happen?
“You then asserted that only the least desirable White women are with Asian men.”
I stick by this assertion not only based on personal observation but with what I stated before when I provided the in depth two year study from those reputable universities which is more reliable than either your or my personal observations. As we like all people are biased to some degree.
“I, at least from the get go said most AF/WM couples have low social value. Remember what I told you, Asians, in general are perceived the least attractive in the Western world. Why would any handsome upper crust White guy go for an Asian woman, when he has hot White females to choose from?”
The crux of this was you were claiming that while af/wm were low social value and that opposite was true for the reverse. I disagreed with this idea that it was true for the reverse once again not only based on personal observation but on what the studies would indicate.
Points for trying with your last comment, both Bondi and Manly have large communities of Brazilians of course you’d know that with your extensive knowledge of Australia. *big laugh* as you say.
@ Raguel
Ad hominem attacks are a sign you have lost an argument. I’m sure you’ll be allowed to continue since I’m not arguing a popular position here. However I find it ironic you are discussing my perceived lack of sexual success while in the Yuja Wang thread your extensive knowledge of pornography comes to the fore. Not exactly a sign of a guy who is popular with women. Looking forward to your next post where you attempt to post how popular you are with women of course that would be when you take a break from your busy porn watching schedule.
Lol!!!
@ Response, are you high? When have I gotten into any argument or debate with you?
And hey!!!
I just really like fair skinned raven haired girls with full lips that look like Monica Belluci.
XD
@ Raguel
Yea out of both of us I must be the one who is high *sarcasm*
It’s not even like its an old comment, you wrote it today.
“Is it a wonder you never have sex with women?”
However you choose to define it, those kind of comments are just immature.
Response,
I think we are worlds apart. And I say this geographically.
I have never found White Aussie and Brit women attractive. And I’m not talking about the celebrities and models. Just the average British and Ozzie land female whom I’ve met here in the states. Half the time, they look like pissy drunk with their bad complexion and maybe it’s from the drinking.
Here in the states, Brazilians do not want to be labeled as “Latino” because they don’t speak Spanish.
Yes, I have seen some fairly attractive WFs with AMs here in the states. I wouldn’t rate them as low sexual market. Again, people date others of similar attraction value. I have seen goodlooking and some ugly couples. AF/WM couples tend to be of low attraction value most of the time.
Wow man, yeah that was SO sarcastic, you even had to tell me it was sarcasm. Thanks for the notice, Response.
LMAO!
@ Chr..
Once again this is only what YOU claim to have seen.
“Remember what I told you, Asians, in general are perceived the least attractive in the Western world. Why would any handsome upper crust White guy go for an Asian woman, when he has hot White females to choose from?”
My response to this is why would a hot upper crust White women go for an Asian guy when she has hot White males to choose from?
Does it not make far more sense that an unattractive white woman with few options would be more likely to date an Asian male, than an attractive white woman who can get an attractive white male?
I don’t understand your rant about white Australian and British women. Was there a point to that?
Response,
“Does it not make far more sense that an unattractive white woman with few options would be more likely to date an Asian male, than an attractive white woman who can get an attractive white male?”
Yes, and that’s why most Asian men would rather not date some low quality white female, and stick with Asian women. And those WFs who do date Asian men I’ve seen are fairly attractive, and not low quality. Do you know that not every White man has a pretty White girlfriend/wife?
“I don’t understand your rant about white Australian and British women. Was there a point to that?”
Most Brits and Aussie women I’ve seen look like half drunk pub girls with bad skin. American girls are a lot better looking!
“Most Brits and Aussie women I’ve seen look like half drunk pub girls with bad skin. American girls are a lot better looking!”
Especially true in Sydney. They might get all dolled up for the night but when you see them in the day the pallor and haggard looks is shocking.
A clear contrast with Melbourne or even Adelaide.
@ Chr..
Your are avoiding the main question and just putting out more of your fantasy world scenario so one more time:
“Remember what I told you, Asians, in general are perceived the least attractive in the Western world. Why would any handsome upper crust White guy go for an Asian woman, when he has hot White females to choose from”
My response to this is why would a hot upper crust White women go for an Asian guy when she has hot White males to choose from?
The question you should be asking is why would any attractive White female go for an Asian guy? I’ve seen it, and so it proves my point. Perhaps the good looking Asian guy has a great personality, and the girl chooses him! Women also tend to date/marry up, and many Asian men in the US have high incomes.
Your questions are becoming to a point of being pedantic, and they sound like some ancient Greek Socratic dialogue in Philosophy 101.
@ Chr..
Nice way to avoid the question yet again
“The question you should be asking is why would any attractive White female go for an Asian guy? I’ve seen it, and so it proves my point. Perhaps the good looking Asian guy has a great personality, and the girl chooses him! Women also tend to date/marry up, and many Asian men in the US have high incomes.”
That is not what we have been arguing whether or not it happens. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule what we have been arguing is if it is common or more common that an attractive Asian woman with an attractive White man. I’ve said no on both counts and provided studies backing me up. You on the other hand have nothing but your opinion.
Its clear your biased to the point where you won’t even accept reasonable answers as seen by your dialogue with King and BigWoWo in this thread.
“Women also tend to date/marry up”
This actually proves my point, white males are considered to be of higher value than Asian males in the US to the point where white women rate Asian men last. So why would any attractive upper crust White girl go for an Asian man, when she has hot White males to choose from?
Can you answer that question or will you just keep avoiding it?
It may shock you but many white men in the US also have high incomes.
If your going with personality then it would apply to your hot white male with Asian female argument. That is she has a great personality so he chooses her.
Just give it up already Chr..
You have to keep changing the terms of argument cause you simply can’t win it.
Not all attractive women, including White women come from the upper crust or well to do families. How hard is it for you to comprehend this? We’re not talking about Kate Middleton and Prince William couples.
Certain cities in the US, there is a higher ratio of women than men. Asian men rank higher in income percentage wise in some of these cities. I told you what I’ve observed. If you disagree, then be it! I’m not going to argue with you anymore.
@ Chr..
It seems you will always keep avoiding the questions I raise or try to re frame it.
However if that’s what helps you sleep easier at night than so be it.
“It seems you will always keep avoiding the questions I raise or try to re frame it.
However if that’s what helps you sleep easier at night than so be it.”
Why don’t you just take a hike, and stop posting theories here as to why attractive White women don’t like you?
“Why don’t you just take a hike, and stop posting theories here as to why attractive White women don’t like you?”
Huh? Unlike you and apparently many Asian guys I could care less if white women didn’t like me. However when someone says something that numerous studies and common sense contradict i’ll speak up.
If you find some reputable studies to back up your position I would be happy to read them and discuss this with you further however your statements of “I’ve seen it so its true” is a poor position to argue from, you seem intelligent enough to know that.
I see how passionate you are about this and I respect that. I come on here because I enjoy reading the lively debate and the exchange of ideas, so I won’t be taking a hike. anytime soon.
Ok, this is my last response to you, Mr. Response.
I never said I disagree with the studies. What I disagree, is that you said out of the small percentage of White women who are with Asian men, they are of low quality looks, and being mediocre is the best they come. I told you that the WFs I’ve seen with AMs who are my clienteles, are quite the contrary. You then later asked why would any wealthy goodlooking WF date an AM. This is when you really knocked off the discussion.
Give me a good reason as to why these WFs are mediocre or low quality.
1) Elizabeth Glennon and Hana Byun:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/26/fashion/weddings/26GLENNON.html
Their video: http://video.nytimes.com/video/2006/11/22/fashion/1194817106505/vows-elizabeth-and-hana.html
2) Elizabeth Sandy and James Huang (Aussie actress and AM actor):
http://registry.weddingchannel.com/coupledir/20117/H/O577488804/JAMES_HUANG_AND_ELIZABETH_SANDY.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3WeGwnOep0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zWU-ew94SE
3) Kaitlin and Bryan Wong (not BigWOWO)
http://www.myspace.com/bryansfanclub
@Response
Ah, you mean the exchange theory in mate selection. Which variants are you referring to? The one where the man exchanges his status for a woman’s beauty (as in Taylor and Glenn 1976)? Or the status-caste exchange theory (as in Davis and Merton)? Or some other variation of the exchange theory?
Some relevant links to what Response is discussing:
Mate Selection:
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3406900293.html
Taylor and Glenn (link requires paid subscription; if someone finds a better link, please post it):
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2094255
Davis:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1941.43.3.02a00030/abstract
From the mate selection article which states ” For example, there is evidence that physically attractive women tend to marry men of higher status, and that socially successful men tend to marry more attractive women”.
Hence the low social value of most AF/WM relationships. Yet the media falsely perpetuates them as quintessential pairings, and discount Asian/Asian couples.
I’ve been saying all along that the AF/WM couples who come to my firm for tax services have financial, and ultimately mental issues because the WM is a low earner. And yes, the AF 9/10 is not the type where many AM, or most goodlooking non-AM would rate as attractive.
One of the things that I’ve noticed in that non-White girls who date White guys often forget to do their due diligence. They have a tendency to look on the White guy as being “A personified representative of the Great White Race” without necessarily realizing a couple clear facts about White demographics.
1) Most White guys are not College graduates… That’s right, MOST. The 4-year college graduation rate for Whites is 37.6 %, and in the past 2 decades more women have earned degrees than men. So if you marry the *AVERAGE* White guy, sorry but he will not have a college degree.
2) Most White guys don’t make very much money. Yes, I’ll say it again, MOST of them do NOT. The median HOUSEHOLD income for Whites in 2006 was $50,673. Thats the combined income from everyone working in the house, so if it’s 2 adults working, then they’d each average around $26,000 a year.
Now that’s not to say that most other groups are doing better, or equal to Whites, but what it is saying is that going White (in and of itself) will probably not merge you into the success lane of life. So if that is what you’re after, FORGET ABOUT RACE, and concentrate solely on character and personal accomplishment in a mate of any racial background (including Asian).
King
I like most of you comments I have read over the years but the stats you put up don’t make your case.
1. It is likely that where Asian women find non Asian men are in cities as that is where Asians tend to live. So while it might be a 37.6% grad rate for whites nationally, in the cities it is higher, like Seattle, which high has a percentage of the population that have BAs or higher.
2. You can’t split it in half. As on average men earn more and it is more likely that if it is a household where 1 person works outside the home, that person is male. Meaning more likely to earn over $26,000.
What should be highlighted is I would guess that Asian males have higher earning degrees. Compare your Asian friends to your white friends, who usually has engineering, computer science, etc degree….
I think that this idea of the worth of AF/WM couples is just an ego-defence mechanism. It might help guys who’ve been treated badly by Asian women, as we all know there are a lot of Asian women who feel a need to shit on Asian men in public out of some sort of self-hate and the desire to fit in. So maybe this kind of idea that they are usually dating losers, are fucked up in the head, aren’t even very attractive can give these hurting guys the extra psychological boost and push to knock off the pedestal the opinions of people who don’t really matter.
But I really hope that people can move on from this sort of thing and go beyond the need. I think that once you’ve found women worthy of your time and esteem and they like you back very much, who other people are dating and their “status” in relation to you becomes the furthest thing from your mind. You’re enjoying your company and everybody else just fades into the diversity of characters that makes up humanity.
Chr..
As always your response is always what you have seen demonstrates your bias at play. You present nothing to back up your assertions (unless you actually believe celebrity pictures count?) We are talking about AVERAGES you post exceptions and expect people to take your argument seriously.
King already posted some links but if I posted up hundreds of pictures of wealthy beautiful Asian women with white men would that change your mind? What your doing is called confirmation bias.
I honestly can’t believe your still trying to debate this. You have nothing backing you up. The fact your posting pictures and trying to pass it off as a legitimate source says it all really. There are times when you have to know when to quit and for you at least in this debate that was about 4 posts ago.
I understand where your coming from in that there are massive numbers of white men and Asian women and few of the reverse thus you want to believe that there is something special about the white women who would go out with an Asian guy. The information on this subject however proves differently.
With the overwhelming majority of people on this planet being average you believe that somehow there is an exception for white women who are with Asian guys, if this doesn’t sound like your fantasy scenario I don’t know what does. Although unintentionally it does demonstrate to me the pedestal on white you put white women, not too dissimilar from what you claim Asian women do with white men.
One other point
I can’t remember where I read it but there is apparently more Asian women cohabiting with white men than Asian men so your theory would mean 40% likely higher of Asian American women are unattractive?
Hey Lingyai
When formulating an argument, of course, one always has to decide how in depth to make it. In this case, I was trying to keep it quite short and thus didn’t go into all the extenuating factors. But, if you like I will go a little further now.
True, but because the Asian grad rate is 50.1% in those same cities, concentrations of Asians with degrees is even higher than those of Whites, which brings you back to the same problem. You must also consider what kind of degrees many Whites have been earning. Whites have, in recent decades, veered away from the hard sciences and technical degrees and thus their degrees in, Library Science, Film, Communications, and Child Psychology tend to earn them less money and provide less long-term career stability than the more technical fields than many Asians pursue.
I’m not really saying that most White guys who work in an urban environment are making $26,000 per year. But what I am saying is that the *majority* of Whites do not earn more than 42,000 a year, even in a city, and they also may not have great job security. There is nothing wrong with that, UNLESS the girl who gets with him was glossing that fact over simply because he was White. And believe me, that sometimes happens.
Hey King
Interesting information brings up the very interesting topic of grad rates and average income in mate selection. That is are they that important overall? Or as important as we’d like them to be.
Correct me if I’m wrong on this but if people were to be choosing a mate based on these factors alone wouldn’t Black males would be considered some of the least desirable mates with the lowest household income and 2nd lowest graduate rates and Asian males would be the most desirable with the highest level in both catagories.
Yet we don’t see this. Once again on AVERAGE for those of the more pedantic posters.
Do women see men who reach a point in income and then say “well that’s good enough”? How much of an impact do you believe income and grad rates play?
Very interesting stuff
@ Response
Grad rates: Are they that important overall?
They are important only if that is what a person is looking for. What I am pointing out is that Whites are often judged based on the very best of them. When many think about Whites, they mistakenly assume that most White people are college educated, successful, sophisticated, worldly, and good looking. That is how they are most often portrayed on T.V. or the movies. The reality is that there are far more average-looking, blue collar, struggling White guys, with limited education, than the handsome professionals seen on TV.
“Correct me if I’m wrong on this but if people were to be choosing a mate based on these factors alone wouldn’t Black males would be considered some of the least desirable mates with the lowest household income and 2nd lowest graduate rates and Asian males would be the most desirable with the highest level in both categories.”
*Yes. But everyone already known that about Blacks. If you had a multiple choice test to ask who has the lower grad rates and income rates, Blacks would certainly be at, or near the bottom. However, Asians would probably be classified just below Whites in income earnings (although first in grad rates) because most people expect Whites to be at the top, even though Asians are as smart as computers.
What I am saying is not income and grad rates Über Alles. What I am saying is that women (esp. WOC) very often believe that White men are doing much better than they actually are, based on an artificial image that portrays Whites as highly educated, fairly well-to-do, good looking, and hard working. Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians hardly benefit from the hollywood propaganda machine at all. Therefore, women who are looking for success aren’t drawn to say… Black guys UNLESS that Black guy has thoroughly demonstrated himself to be an *exception* to the rule.
In the case of Whites, a White guy may be working part-time as a Starbucks Manager, and be in a band, and yet many women of color will assume that he’s on the way up, despite the fact that he makes 32K and that his band hasn’t been picked up after playing locally for 8 years.
* Actually Hispanics also come in at the lowest household income, but there are so many nomadic/migrant workers, and illegals that the numbers are never accurately reported.
^ I’d should probably amend that. Blacks have benefitted from the hollywood propaganda machine in recent years, however Blacks (as a group) are often seen as “cool” but not necessarily as highly educated or highly successful.
“King already posted some links but if I posted up hundreds of pictures of wealthy beautiful Asian women with white men would that change your mind? What your doing is called confirmation bias.”
Where are the links? Show me something other than those hot celebrities with baggage?
What do I need to back up? I don’t care for averages, there’s enough of them in this world. Again, you are in denial that pretty White women go for good looking Asian men. You don’t want to know because of whatever bias you have. You arguing a different thing everytime you are here. We all know there are more AFs in interracial relationships. Even a 5 year old kid knows this.
I think I need to find myself an ugly WF to end this interracial dating disparity between the Asian sexes!
Raguel,
How about it’s based on media hype, and AFs want to shit on WFs? Many AFs are jealous of WFs? No?
I deal with clients everyday so the opinions I make is based on my sample of interaction. Not only do they date White undesirables, they go for the entire rainbow of losers, except Asian. And I think I have a valid claim, because what I see in income levels represent the stats in NYC – older White males, and individual Asians and Asian couples earn the most, then followed by younger under 40 Whites and single WFs, and at the bottom are the scourge of society who are the blacks and hispanics. AF/WM couples fall between the younger White group and the low income minorities. The only difference with them and other groups, and I couldn’t say it better than you, is that the AFs want to live in the fantasy White world, and meanwhile they are having problems financially because of it.
“I think that this idea of the worth of AF/WM couples is just an ego-defence mechanism. It might help guys who’ve been treated badly by Asian women, as we all know there are a lot of Asian women who feel a need to shit on Asian men in public out of some sort of self-hate and the desire to fit in”.
Chr..
I’ll post this again since you seemed to miss it the first time.
“THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE”
If your still not getting it I have never stated it doesn’t happen. THERE ARE ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE. I feel the need to put important stuff in caps since you keep missing it.
I NEVER stated that there has been no instance of attractive white female with Asian male so I don’t even understand what the pictures were for. Although I’m not surprised about you going off topic when you have no reply to the points I raise like your like your bizarre rant about British women.
I am honestly shocked a grown man would try to use pictures he found online as a counter argument to a two year study done by Columbia University on Racial Preferences in Dating.
“Where are the links?” “Show me something other than those hot celebrities with baggage?”
Really? You would honestly change your argument if I showed you pictures of attractive Asian women with white men?
So Google images is the real key to making you to change your mind? Not logical argument and studies by prestigious universities on the subject at hand. A bit of a worry.
“What do I need to back up? I don’t care for averages, there’s enough of them in this world.”
What you need to back up is your entire argument as at this moment in time its ONLY YOUR POINT OF VIEW. Provide evidence, if you can’t then give it up.
I’ll explain to you how argument works since your not getting it. You and I have differing viewpoints so we have to back up your arguments or else it would just be your word against mine. To strengthen my argument I provided various INDEPENDENT studies backing up my viewpoint.
You on the other hand found some pictures on the internet and then continue to prattle on that you have seen the opposite yourself and seem to believe that is a legitimate argument.
You also stated you don’t care for averages? Once again are you serious?
“I deal with clients everyday so the opinions I make is based on my sample of interaction.”
Read this back to yourself a few times so it sinks in. This is textbook confirmation bias.
Chr.. for you to keep going when you only have your opinion is a losing battle for you. Either provide reputable sources or give up your ranting until you do.
Chr..
I get the feeling you may still be struggling on this so one more time.
Lets take a look at Kings comment earlier on as it helps me explain my issue with you.
King said:
“In my own observation, I have at times crossed paths with the WM/AF couple cadre. I can assure you, that the girls who I have known who are dating White guys are (for the most part) quite attractive, well educated, and successful.”
He however freely admits that it is anecdotal.
You make the opposite claim and yet the only evidence you have is ALSO anecdotal.
“I deal with clients everyday so the opinions I make is based on my sample of interaction.”
The problem with arguing based on anecdotal evidence is that anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; only STATISTICAL EVIDENCE can determine how typical something is.
Get it yet?
Oh, this is one of those times when I genuinely want to know: how closely does statistical evidence mirror reality?
95.6% of statistics are made up on the spot. True story.
Raguel, When it comes to income levels and race…Blacks and Hispanics as a group earn more than what the stats dictate! Or maybe they earn less! So which is it?
“95.6% of statistics are made up on the spot. True story”.
Maybe when it comes to income levels and racial demographics, that measly 4.4% represents what you call accuracy.
Don’t think for a second that a cool Black dude from the ghetto is gonna score a high quality White chick based on Hollywood stereotypes. The WF/BM couples I get to deal with, outearn the AF/WM couples everytime. The BM is always a high earner, raking in six digits and doesn’t speak in ebonics. There’s one couple who I’m very friendly with, the BM is in upper management at a Fortune 500 company, and owns a home and an apartment in NYC. You think his WF wife would be with him he had made $10k working at McDonalds, yet she overlook this deficiency because he was a cool guy?
@raquel
How accurate do you expect Academic findings to be when they only have like 1K budget (some don’t even have budget). That’s why I think most sociology research papers (and academics in general) is just full of shiz.
Not all stats come from academia. Many are done by government agencies like the US Census. Here in NYC, we have a non profit organization called the Asian American Federation that track Asian issues in regards to education, income, and interracial marriage..etc.
http://www.aafny.org/
“How accurate do you expect Academic findings to be when they only have like 1K budget (some don’t even have budget)”.
This is the summary of my observations of the dating scene:
lesbian and bisexual women of all races: Bellatrix has heard no general complaints. Usually, the women are only unhappy with individual people and not entire groups.
Random person: Wow, you’re bisexual? You must like everyone on this planet!
Straight couple: looking for bisexual girl to join
straight black girls: black guys that we like are going for white girls.
straight Asian guys: Asian girls are going for the white guys
Gay Asian male 1: I like Asian guys
rest of gay Asian males: That’s so revolutionary. We dig white guys.
Gay black guys: Only date white
Remaining black guy: *is bummed*
Every once in a while, I see replies to blog posts that read like “you’d get more girls if you work out”, so I’ll add this. It seems that all men and women are affected by the following body image that the media projects.
Men: must be tall and muscular to be attractive.
Gay guy: must be under the age of 25.
Asian guy: must look like an anime bishie, boy band guy, or Asian drama star
Women: must be like 5’11″ and 110lbs to be pretty.
Asian women: must be under the age of 25 and a size 0 to be considered by an Asian guy.
On the work out more thing, I will have to say that a moderate amount of exercise is healthy and the right types of exercises can be a lot of fun.
In response to the comments about white girls dating Asian guys: the ones that I’ve seen are pretty decent, but my observations are limited to my college campus.
On the one end, we got guys complaining about how Asian girls like white guys. On the other, I have this friend who really wants an Asian boyfriend. Asian guys who want girlfriends, wherefore art thou? Here’s a sexy single lady right next to me.
Bellatrix’s personal tastes: likes women and transpeople of all races but prefers Asians. So far, I haven’t found a unifying theme in terms of physical characteristics that I prefer to see in a partner, unless you count that emotionally, I’m slightly more into Asian girls and transpeople. I am an Asian girl for the record.
Bellatrix, are u bellatrix of deucescracked? If u are I always assumed ur white for some reason.