Podcast: Interracial Relationships and the Gender Divide, Asian American Female Perspective

I can see errors on both sides.

Some males are too extreme and I prefer them not to represent me as an Asian male.

Some females are still ignorant and don’t understand.

If anything it’s asian unity that needs work not impulsive actions.

Oh, one more small note: I’ve noticed that there is an mentality that’s rife in the Asian American female of feeling the need to cater to the feelings of white men. As in, they’re afraid of offending them.

Even at the expense of offending their own.

Yes uRB4N i agree, and thats the problem. But i think its mainly about power and control, since the apex of power, wealth and control in Caucasian dominated societies lies in white males. So of course females would be wary of offending the most powerful men in the room….in practical ways, for example, job interviews, employment, housing, promotion, etc if you openly go against white males you will be a target, trust me I KNOW!!!!. So the only way to resolve that is to decrease the power of white males, white privilege, white supremacy, through increased ASIAN IMMIGRATION into the caucasian dominated countries. That way, the “white” ethnic group is no longer the majority, no longer the standard, no longer the NORM and it becomes more difficult to hold us down, because more numbers is more power. Thats a street lesson, but its really true in other areas of life. Alternatively, westernised asians just need to have as many children as possible to outpopulate the white ethnic group in caucasian dominated countries.

Personally, i think that asian men that exclusively date white women are just as bad as asian women who exclusively date white men, from my experience, both are confused about their identity, and generally have ffed up self esteem issues by placing greater value and emphasis on “whiteness” of their partners, while devaluing “yellowness” or the asianess of others. HAS ANYONE NOTICED that asian people who exclusively date “white” people are usually the most self hating mofos around, who really believe in “equality” “democracy” “freedom” etc and actually ashamed of the YELLOW STAR on their face? jesus….colonised minds right there.

Leon,

Thanks for the kind words–even though I hardly did anything on this one! Unless you’re talking about my sound editing, which, of course, is totally top class.

After hearing this, I got some cool activist ideas for actually changing the gender divide through institutions. These ideas are still in development, but of course I’ll share when I’ve got them down.

There is the institutions we need to have a part in and there is also the media that influences.

I think there needs to be more asian media that represent us.

Western media and their ideals needs to be challenged when it comes to something ‘Asians’ because they rob asian people of their ethnic identity and representations.

Mainstream media and culture expresses only white interests.

IF you’re an asian and you can only speak english and read english.

Everything you learn about romance, love etc you’re likely to have a person envisioned especially some of the asian women I know who can’t imagine themselves with asian guys and don’t find them attractive at all.

Similar asian guys can be just as affected in teh same way but not in the greater effect because asians guys with white girls aren’t as widely accepted in the social norms.

But really, it’s asian and asian couples I am concerned about.

Asians should cut their losses and concentrate on what needs to be done next.

Byron, I started to give more viewpoints that address what the Asian women in this podcast asked and talked about. It’s too bad I forgot what I said.

(To those that don’t know, Byron and I chatted privately for another 45 minutes after the podcast ended)

One point that caught my ear was when Sylvia (I think) stated that she didn’t agree with the idea that just because an Asian woman isn’t with an Asian man means she doesn’t support them.

Again, I disagree and here’s the reason why:

One of the primary concerns of Asian America is the emasculation of Asian men by white society, specifically white men. As we all know, white patriarchy has stipulated that Asian men are sexually inept and not worthy of consideration. Therefore, when Asian women date white men, they are essentially giving credence to that mentality by proving it in daily life.

While an Asian woman can mentally and actively supporting Asian men while going out with a white man, there is absolutely no consistence in preach and practice.

Take it like this:

How much credibility would you give someone who claims to be heavily involved in PETA and protesting for animal rights but offers the explanation that what she does in her private life is her own business when you catch her eating an extra bloody hamburger?

None.

Because what this person is doing is preaching for animal rights but at the same time, sabotaging those efforts.

How can one possibly put any type of faith and a sense of reliability in you? Like I said repeatedly, I would rather every human being be consistent and not disjointed. In this case, if you date white men, stop saying you support Asian men. Like the old adage goes, practice what you preach.

Now, this brings me to another point:

Almost no Asian woman in America will preach that men of their community are superior to other men as far as they’re concerned. We’re sub par (at worst) and equal to other men (at best). From what I’ve observed from other non-Asian women, they already place “their” men as the best. It’s assumed.

This already gives Asian men a slow start because their own women don’t place them higher on the ladder like how other women put their own men. This leads to the women putting their men higher on the priority ladder in every respect.

Also, much respect to C-Bruhs for bringing up a very important question about how would Asian women feel if the situation was reversed? While she asked how Asian women would feel if 45% of Asian men were involved with white women, Eva and Syl pretty much jumped around the question and didn’t really give a relevant answer.

To make it a bit more detail, I think C-Bruhs should have added the details of:

1.) Constantly having your sexual self worth attacked by white society
2.) Have many Asian men be some of your biggest detractors
3.) Have your presence virtually eliminated from society
4.) Give you a much harder time to be deemed acceptable by non-Asians
5.) Adjust social norms so that women have to be the “chaser” in the dating scene so more white women approach Asian men while Asian women are looked upon with disapproval from white men.

Granted, this will never happen. My point is that Asian women might have a “small” idea of what it “might” feel like, it will never substitute for the real thing.

I can drink from a glass of water and tell you that it’s cold. Until you drink from it as well, you’ll never know how cold it really is.

when these are the times when “asian” is the new “blonde”, you become an object of desire. an object mind you, a possession. asian guys knew what you are to them.
we dont bribe you with gifts, we do it with heart; its not cheap, its stuff our moms told us to do.
yeah ok, money, power and all that is good. but do you the asian girl wanna look like a gold digger?
sex? everyone wants you for sex, that is a given.
love? asians knows asians very well. we are taught love by mama.

short asian guys come from short moms too. look at all the 5′8 guys and 5′0 girls on heels, tell me that is our fault.

asian frats promote a strong asian male image right? some times it gets skewed.

given selection, that is understandable.
like my ex was in iowa, 1 of maybe 12 asian families; you will be related; in a few months your asian bf is your cousin just cuz.

Totally non-sequitur, but every time I read something about IR dating I want to ask this question but always forget.

How many of you have a sibling of the opposite sex with whom you have discussed IR dating, emasculation, fetishization, etc.? What were the results?

Okay, does anyone understand what the hell Kobe is talking about in both of his posts? Please translate if you do.

hi sorry, a few ppl mentioned that this is a time of “the generation of evil”.
the whole idea of relationships are so skewed. whatever the combination is now, it just means “who you are having sex with”.

bf/gf, xbf/xgf, bf/bf, gf/gf. (right).

evolution of the social human (male, in most cases)
stage 1: the Asexual time period consists of maybe 15 years.
stage 2: the “Buy”sexual time period consists of maybe 15-30 years
stage 3: the “Try”sexual time period consists of 15 - 30 years {viagra willing}

girls for some reason run through this pretty quick, different bio clock.

Remember me? I’m Siegfried! I was on the Fighting 44s before I got kicked off.
Speaking of the Fighting 44s, I’m glad that crap is off air. All it did was try to control Asian Females to not to date white males. Dialect called me a “useless moron” That is what he is. I’m glad he is letting the forum stay up so people can read how I was attacked. But I digress.

The trouble with Asian males that they try to bully the Asian females into their twisted point of view. The women see that and dislike being controlled. I’m glad they are waking up and have their own opinion. If you want to date Asian women, then you should have an open mind.
None of the girls on the Fighting 44s will never say that they don’t find white men attractive. Even Mao girl who was bullied off the forum, never said that she didn’t like us. And Ellen Cho thought that some white athletics was handsome. I’m sure that even Jade Dragon would marry me in a heart beat.
I digress.

What business is it of anyone who Asian women date? Yes, I like Asian women. I used to date white women, but now I date totally Asian. It has nothing to do with fetish. It is more of preference.
The more you try to control Asian women; the more she will turn to us and we will be waiting.

Haha…Leon, feel free to say whatever you want! We’ve got a loose moderation policy here, so while it enables to us to get comments from the better end of the spectrum, it also brings in comments like Siegfried’s.

Siegfried:

“Remember me? I’m Siegfried! I was on the Fighting 44s before I got kicked off.”

I remember the name, but to be honest, I don’t think you and I ever communicated, so I really don’t remember who you are or what you did. I will say this–Dialectic is a very fair admin, so if you did something that pissed him off, you probably were acting like a useless moron. Again, I don’t know who you are, but I tend to trust his (and Lopan’s, and Ellen’s, and Box’s) judgment on stuff like this.

“None of the girls on the Fighting 44s will never say that they don’t find white men attractive. Even Mao girl who was bullied off the forum, never said that she didn’t like us. And Ellen Cho thought that some white athletics was handsome.”

What’s your point? Is it a crime to find white people attractive? I’ll never say that I don’t find white women attractive either, and I too have seen some attractive white female athletes. So we’re all even, right?

“I’m sure that even Jade Dragon would marry me in a heart beat.”

Too late. She already married the person who you say called you a “useless moron.”

“The more you try to control Asian women; the more she will turn to us and we will be waiting.”

I don’t remember why you got banned, but you sound like a stalker.

Haha, yes, the gravatar works. Yeah!

I find most investment bankers to be pretentious, power hungry, money grubbing, arrogant douchebags…no offense. But uRB4N does make some great points, and I generally agree with his premise.

Hello, Siegfried. Your gravatar is looking mighty attractive and fine today.

“The trouble with Asian males that they try to bully the Asian females into their twisted point of view.”

Well.

The trouble with white males [is] that they believe Asian females are their entitlements.

Robert is going to call me out now on the blanket assumption. That’s okay.

Sigfried, you’re being ridiculous.

There are some people who feel very strongly about preserving culture/ethnicity when it comes to their mating choices. There are Blacks who only date/marry Blacks, there are Chinese who only date/marry other Chinese. There are White people who only date/marry other Whites. In general, society accept this choice as one that preserves a variety of culture and ethnicity.

For example, have you considered that if every Asian woman on Earth had decided not to mate with an Asian man, that at some point, you wouldn’t have any pure Asian women to chase after? It takes TWO ASIANS to make an exclusively Asian woman… or have you forgotten logic and biology?

But back to my point, there are also some people who’s primary concern in selecting a mate is based on more NON-ethnic criterea. These are open to coupling with persons from a wide range of ethnicities or cultures. This idea, although somewhat new, is at the least, widely tolerated, if not yet enthusiastically accepted in every quarter.

But your “preference” arguement falls rather clumsily between two barstools. You are obviously not seeking to preserve a specific historical/ethnic culture, nor are you romantically open to a wide range of other ethnic cultures. In your case, you have excluded the idea of coupling with a member of your own ethnicity and have now focused exclusively on females of the “Asian ethnicity.”

Your explanation for this is that this is your “personal preference.” But that is NOT a preference. A preference is not exclusionary. If I prefer Coca Cola, it doesn’t mean that I won’t drink Pepsi or Orange Crush. If I say that I prefer readheads, that doesn’t mean that I refuse to date blondes, it just means that I happen to favor redheads. But you have virtually turned it into a religion. It may not be racism, per se, but it is at least racialism.

While I find these discussions important, it’s also just tiring on the psyche. At least, to me it is; there’s just so much to digest. Ed wrote “Where is the damn unity?”

Good question, where is it? Is it possible? I dunno. We’re not a monolithic block. We all have different experiences and perspectives. And when this subject comes up, we’re all a little too defensive. Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the ladies’ viewpoints, because I think it’s good to get a perspective other than one from those who pretty much agree with you. but I have no idea how we can become a little less reactionary unless we have these types of dialogs and debates.

In the end, it’s about compatibility and being happy. There will always be those who exclusively date white guys or white girls for whatever reasons. Some I may agree with, some I won’t. And there’s nothing I can do about it if someone doesn’t want to listen, or at least be open to my viewpoint. All I can hope for is that there will come a time when they gain a true awareness that there’s nothing wrong with dating within , or without, but more importantly dating within.

On some level, you have to be the best person you can be and just be who you are. I once went out with a Eurasian girl who did not identify whatsoever with her Korean heritage, even thought he map of Korea was on her face! Instead, she identified more with her Irish heritage and had spent time living in Europe. There’s no way you can change her outlook, that she was ignoring an essential half of who she is. She was culturally whitewashed through and through. I can’t fault her for it, or call her a sellout or whatever, even though I didn’t like it much that she had zero interest in her Korean heritage. That’s just who she is.

I agree with what Leon wrote, that we could all be a little more empathetic with each other.

(I apologize - I haven’t listened to the entire podcast, single mom and all that but I think I’ve read enough blog posts and comments here to get the gist of the issue)

I was married to a white man, divorced him. Now I am dating a Korean man. I am Korean. I also went to an international boarding school in India.

Looking at my past dating history, I have to say that the attraction for me wasn’t so much the looks or racial features. While in boarding school, I dated mostly Asian boys (Indian, Iranian, mixed) but not east Asian boys… a couple of European white boys (British and Swedish). The one thing that’s common was who belonged to the popular crowd, i.e. dominant crowd with power.

Then, while living in Minnesota, I’ve only dated white men. 1) Only white men have asked me out. Over the last 20 years that I’ve lived here, no Asian man asked me out. 2) According to census, I think Asian, specifically Korean, populations number is pretty low percentage.

There’s also the phenomenon of Asian men walking to a table of women and making sure that they hit on all women except the Asian one.

I don’t think it’s an issue of gender divide. I think it’s an issue of something more primal, i.e. survival instinct. I know that we are humans but if you zero in to one out of one hundred available potential mates, you are not going to be mating or procreating very often. I’ve noticed that many of my Korean-American friends on the west coast, i.e. CA area, are married to other Korean-Americans. There is a significant and dominant Korean-American presence there.

Here’s another theory. If you grow up with parents who are like all the other kids’ parents (racially, culturally, whatnot), you would want to emulate their relationship and be attracted to the same race. If you grow up with parents who seemed so FOB and all you wanted, as a teenager, was to fit in… well, how do you fit in? You marry/date the dominant race/culture/whatnot.

Anyway. Just two cents from the gal who finally got asked out by a Korean man (except he isn’t from Minnesota, he lives 2000 miles away). And it wasn’t even about the race but I was finally in a place where I wanted someone who understood me, my history, my story… and not about dating for survival or within the dominant/popular crowd.

Mama Nabi,

You make some interesting points about power.

I’ve been trying to make time to think about ways to use institutional power to help “fix” this divide. As many of the commenters here have mentioned, it’s sometimes unhealthy to get fixated on the topic. We’d be much happier if we were talking about how we’ve taken steps to fix it and help the divide. I’ve got some ideas, and I hope to talk a little more about the power that Mama Nabi discusses in her post. We can get take small steps in fixing the “divide” in a way that should work for everyone.

Oh, and one of the joys of running a site that doesn’t require registration for comments is that we can all kinds of morons here. You guys and gals all have the right approach in dealing with Sigfried. If we can just use Siegfried’s dorky comments as a means to crack funny jokes or illustrate that racism that exists in the world today, we can treat his stupid comments as a way to either enjoy a joke or to think more deeply about the silent enemy we’re fighting.

Siegfried, please find somewhere else to play. No one here likes you.

Sigfrie, from one cracker to another, that spongy mass in your skull that tells you when it’s time to use the bathroom really shouldn’t be the same organ that you use to comment on an asian activism blog. Your arrogance about Jade Dragon (no clue who that is, but I’m pretty sure she thinks you’re an asshat) is mind boggling. Self belief is a wonderful thing, but when you come to a discussion that’s tense between the members of the same race (asians in case you’re not following along) and you interject your arrogance, you should expect to meet resistance, actually, I look forward to reading the responses I’m sure you’re about to get.

@mama very interesting post, you bring up some very interesting points, referencing basic human evolutionary needs models in ways that at least I hadn’t considered. Glad to hear you’ve found happiness, from some of your other posts, it sounds as if you’ve had some rough patches in the relationship world.

Sorry, I’m trying to stay out of this one (other than my responses to Sigfrie - how can you not?) as I realize I’m on the outside of this discussion. Very interesting to read / listen to tho.

Sigfreid, you keep digging your own grave here, just like on the 44s…

You keep trying to put forward this idea that you’re just expressing your personal preference. For example, “I don’t particularity care for black women.”

Well, I’m not quite sure how far this statement goes, so I’m inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt.

But then you go on to say: “For example, Michelle Obama is not pretty at all.”
OK fine… but Michelle is the President’s wife not a movie star. She looks good for a 40+ year old mother and non-model/actress type. She’s not supposed to be the universal proof case for Black beauty.

But THEN you go on to say, “Comparing her to Jackie O. is ridiculous.” which takes it far afield from your own personal tastes, and speaks to how you think that other people should see her. So it’s no longer about YOUR PERSONAL TASTE, it’s now about your stupid ideas about how everybody else should see her and compare her.

“Ridiculous”??? Why?? because YOU don’t “particularity care for black women???”

What you’re saying here is that people who do happen to see her as attractive or classy are being ridiculous. And that’s the problem with people like you—all too often your so-called “personal preferences” end up as racial value judgements that you then wish to impose on other people.

So, is anyone going to take some time to address my points?

Or shall we all do the same dog and pony show where we all touch upon the topic at hand for a second, chime in with our personal life experiences, get distracted by an internet troll, go back to talking about what an idiot the troll was, and then finally letting the thread die with no input whatsoever?

I love wasting my time on a topic that will eventually get restarted again in a few months per the usual Asian American MO.

Urb4n:

You compare female APA activists who date white men to animal rights activists who wear fur coats. (The precise example you gave was a bloody hamburger, but at least this is the essence of your first point.)

As for your second point, it stops the conversation, because you say if Asian women never experience what Asian men experience, then they’ll never get it. And since we don’t get it, the implied thesis here is that we don’t have the right to gripe.

What did you anticipate me, an Asian female, to say to that second point? I probably shouldn’t say anything, because I just won’t “get it.”

But back to your first point. You’re affirming the consequent. If Suzie Wong dates a white man, then Suzie Wong thinks Asian men are effeminate/wife beaters/not good enough. Suzie dates a white man. Therefore Suzie thinks Asian men are effeminate/wife beaters/not good enough. That’s the fundamentals of your logic, which you then take a step further by citing that conclusion as the reason why Suzie Wong will never be a credible APA activist. With that kind of logic, no gay man could be a feminist. And that’s simply not true.

Epilogue:

Akrypti to Hubby: “Honey, this guy on the Internet is saying that Asian women who date white men and claim to be activists are like animal activists who wear fur, or eat hamburgers, and stuff. How do I refute that?”

Hubby: “You don’t. He’s right.”

URB4N:

“I love wasting my time on a topic that will eventually get restarted again in a few months per the usual Asian American MO.”

Actually I have another post coming up tomorrow at 11 am Pacific. I’m ahead of the pack; everything on WOWO moves at warp speed. BOOOYAHH!!!

Akrypti:

My post on trying to come up with some solutions is coming up in 11 hours…woohoo! I think a solution will become apparent soon. Or at least a possible path.

“Akrypti to Hubby: “Honey, this guy on the Internet is saying that Asian women who date white men and claim to be activists are like animal activists who wear fur, or eat hamburgers, and stuff. How do I refute that?”

Hubby: “You don’t. He’s right.”

Haha…that’s great! You’re husband is awesome. Seriously, y’all should drop by Portland sometime when it’s UFC night.

Etain:

“Think of it this way — Barack Obama won like, what, 95%+ of the black vote in 2008? Clearly that means practically all black men and women voted for him. What if he were married to a white woman? He would be the same person, have the same intelligence, be able to speak to the black community in the same way… but what percentage of black women do you think would have voted for him? And really, you can’t blame them, because it’s a valid criticism.”

On my 11 am Pacific time post tomorrow, check out the link (sorry, I’d post it up now, but I wanted to give Jimmy Aquino some time in top position. If you find the article sooner, please keep my secret!). There will be a comment in the comment section that says that Obama, in Dreams of My Father, wrote that he could not marry a White woman because he was specifically seeking out his roots. According to the comment, he broke up with a White woman over it.

Has anyone read Dreams of My Father? Can anyone vouch for this?

Okay guys,

I got a little off the topic. I’ll act appropriately for now on.
Let’s have a mug of beer and chill out. This is the way of me apologizing.
I do have strong opinions on this subject too since it effect my love life.

I do agree what the women said in the podcast. They are pretty intelligent.
I saw Laura Ling and Euna Lee’s husbands on Larry King. They both were white.
One had a little girl that you could not tell if she was half Asian or not.

I think there’s an assumption that it’s only Asian men that would be skeptical of the credibility of an APA woman activist that dates white men. Surely mainstream society would also look upon that as suspect and not take them too seriously? I would suggest that most people, Asian or otherwise, would find such an activist unconvincing and that alone would be sufficient reason for Asians to question the wisdom of having such a person as an advocate.

Just imagine the scope of the task. One would have to convince an entire society and it’s media that is already heavily invested (both financially and politically) in demeaning Asian people in general and Asian men in particular that, despite marrying/dating a white man, you believe that demeaning portrayals of Asian men are inaccurate. They would laugh at you.

Okay, it’s up! (See above)

I generally agree with Mojo and Terri.

Etain,

I’m going to have to check out that book. I heard Obama was a total militant back in the day.

uRB4N, I agree with your points, but not your solution. I believe it will help the general self-esteem of Asian men if they see more AM with WF, but you can’t expect all AM to start dating WF anymore than you can expect all AF to stop dating WM. And if everybody end up chasing after white ass, there won’t be much of an Asian American community. I also think it’s a mistake to cut off all the women from us, but then our goals are differernt. I want to close the divide that seperate the genders. Sure, there are few AF who are aware of this IR issue and fewer still who agrees that it’s a problem. Then there are some who are still unaware and some who are sellouts that we love to hate. But if we’re hoping to reach out to those women who are unaware and bring them over to our side, we need the few who are actually with us right now.

The problem with this whole IR issue is that it has generated so much mistrust on both sides that most AF won’t believe in AM, no matter what we say. I’ve seen this issue resurrected countless times on various forums and not once have I ever seen a single AF change her mind. Just a lot of shouting and finger-pointing and nothing getting resolved. That is why I think it’s a big step to a have a podcast with just AF speaking on this issue. Even though they do not agree with all the points we bring up, at least they’re willing to talk about it, which in turn will hopefully lead to more AF listening and become aware of how this issue effects the community.

I’m confused.

What is the rational Asian women use as an excuse to mistrust Asian men?

The only statement I heard was that Asian men are hostile to Asian women. Here’s the kicker; it’s something Asian women are doing that are causing Asian men to be hostile to you.