I’m not sure what’s more interesting: the fact that we’re still talking about this movie, or the fact that we’ve got tons of martial artists here and only one person so far has commented on Lyoto Machida’s title shot.
So here’s my view on the whole “Dogs of Chinatown” debate–I guess we’re talking about the debate now, rather than the movie itself.
First, I’d like to retract my statement that Blake and Eric are third rate nobodies. I made that comment in good faith, given the fact that their initial comments were obnoxious and totally dismissed Asian American concerns about the film. You can see their comments here–first Blake, and then Eric. I think their initial comments, both on the BcB site and the Stunt People site, were purposely inflammatory. Eric himself was encouraging people to rag on him, he was purposely being annoying so that people would jump in, and I made a judgment based on what I was reading from them, probably because, as some have mentioned, these guys probably didn’t see how racial stereotypes affect non-white people before this discussion. Aznheartthrob‘s message to them describes it well:
The fact that you UNDERSTAND you’re being funny about your racism (throwing the term Yellow around) and sexism (Thi in a school girl uniform) doesn’t make it any better. You can’t appropriate the terms used to be derogatory against Asians and use it in your own language and think its ok because you have Asian friends and you understand its ironic that a white guy is using it. In no setting should you be using the term “me love you long time” even as a joke, esp if its not funny and esp on a site dedicated to calling out racism against Asian. Subtle and sometimes not so subtle.
And now that Eric is, in the words of Derek (I don’t want to be accused of putting words into people’s mouths), “trying to distance himself from the content of the film,” I’m guessing that Eric may be starting to see the racism behind it.
In any case, after speaking with them, both Blake and Eric seem like decent people, so I’ll take the “third rate nobodies” statement back. However, an apology is not in order, given the fact that they came onto an Asian American site and just starting acting like frat boys flouting their racial privilege. I do think–nay, I know–that they’ve internalized a lot of racist preconceptions of people, but it looks like that’s being worked on. Hopefully some good will come of this discussion.
Now as for apologies on the rest of it, here’s the story: they’d like an apology for me laying the blame on the Stunt People, and I’d think an apology from them would be appropriate for promoting stereotypes, although I think it would be silly of me to ask. Given the differences in opinion that still exist, it makes little sense for either me or them to apologize at this time. We just state our positions, and at some point, we agree to disagree.
Eric is the de-facto leader of the Stunt People, and the Stunt People is an institution. This is exactly the institutional racism that minorities always decry. If you look at those Stunt People bios, how do people get involved with them? That’s right; they meet Eric and he takes ‘em in. This is why I do think that Eric should take responsibility for the film since he’s the main face promoting it. That’s why I think Asian Americans in the Stunt People should say something about it. I’m not saying that it’s all or nothing–maybe the Stunt People does some good for them, as Derek mentions in his thoughtful comments. But for a member of a minority race who has to see this kind of stuff over and over, I think it’s a fair question to ask. And honestly, I don’t regret asking. Otherwise I wouldn’t have gotten the comments from Derek, Ed, Pete, and Tyler. I think everyone should ask questions like this.
I told Eric that I would correct misleading statements, so check my old post for corrections to the implication that the Stunt People and Blake’s company are the same. I think that’s the only misleading part of my statement, although, as I mention, it’s fair to question both.
Related posts:
we don’t say anything because it’s useless to get butt-hurt over every little racial stereotype that appears in any movie. if we sat around being worried about being PC about everything, either we’d get nothing done or our work would turn to crap.
let it go! you’re turning something into nothing and honestly it’s a complete waste of everybody’s time.
oops, i mean NOTHING into SOMETHING
It’s great that you’ve taken time to clarify, but this post isn’t without its errors.
That particular line about Eric being the de-facto leader of The Stunt People and that being an example of institutional racism is particularly bad. How can you make such a statement like that without any proof? It’s not as if Ed was passed up for the #1 position because he was Asian.The simple story of The Stunt People goes as simple as this:
Eric and some other guys started the group in Redding, CA (otherwise known as land of few Asians). He continued the group in the city once he started going to college there, and voila! Suddenly there were Asians in the group not surprisingly.
It’s not as if Ed was in the group from day 1 with Eric and was pushed to #2 position just because he was the brown guy. Eric was simply just the initial member of the SP in the city. No need to bring more conspiracy theories into it.
I mean, should I talk about how the other prominent indie stunt crew Zero Gravity is mostly Asian? Or should I just bring up the fact that they started out in San Jose, where finding Asians in a group is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Look, we all know there is institutional racism, but not every occurrence of where the white guy is the leader is an example of that. In The SP’s case, it just happened because Eric took the group from a town with a lot less minorities to one where white’s are the minority. Trying to use The Stunt People as an example here is bad journalism. We should be talking about how an Asian American directors (*cough* M. Night Shyamalan/James Wong) could allow roles meant for Asians to be casted with white actors. At least Justin Lin fought to get some of his guys in his mainstream movies.
I’ve never seen or heard anything like this in my life. Talking to you is basically impossible. The stuff you said here borders on idiocy. I hope you realize some day that picking fights like this gets you nowhere, except it seems to pissed off a bunch of Asians.
what we really need is a boombox!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCQxU_W5dAQ
Whoa. I have to say that I find it more interesting that we are still (well, I’ve been gone for a week) talking about the movie… And that my ReCAPTCHA words are: very griped.
Not so interesting that the people involved in the movie are defending the movie… It’d be more interesting if someone actually came out and said, “Yes, it’s a low-budget movie with mediocre to bad acting with unoriginal premise of typical orientalism but, hey, we gotta start somewhere.” At least that’d be honest.
Okay, maybe someone did – I couldn’t read through all the comments, sorry. I couldn’t even finish the trailer I found online. No offense, but I am not a fan of B or C or even D movies… nothing personal.
I thought the whole point was that the premise was racist…? Or are we arguing the merits of this movie as an art form? Latter shouldn’t even be a conversation – it’s a low-budget movie, I applaud the effort on the artistic merit – the cinematography (in the trailer, at least) was impressive, I thought it was pretty good quality that is overshadowed by the stilted acting.
About the premise – it’s an old hat, *yawn*. OMG, the line about the “ghost” agent? Who wrote this crap?
The race issue? Well, duh. If people can’t see how this isn’t reinforcing negative racial stereotypes… isn’t it obvious??!? Now I find that most interesting that it would not have been obvious – artistically speaking, if a screenwriter or a moviemaker cannot recognize that glaringly present nuance, uh… jeez, don’t expect a call from Sundance Festival?
Haha, you guys are getting your panties uptight over an indiefilm? Damn, you asians really are crazy.
I find this all very entertaining. So what you’re saying is that because an actor is paid to act in a movie, not only does he *personally* take full responsibility for the content of the movie, but the organization that he is personally affiliated with separate from the movie must now also take full responsibility for the content of the film.
So let’s say Tom Hanks is in a shitty horrible offensive movie. By your logic, Tom Hanks is personally to blame and fully responsible for the entirety of the content of the film. But not just that, actually Tom Hank’s entire family is also to blame for the content of the movie.
Think about how absurd that sounds.
Better start shooting those babies because they are personally responsible for offending me.
And you, Eric. You offend me ESPECIALLY. Mostly because you’re white and therefore have absolutely no right to make any sort of racial or gender commentary as a white male.
Down with the man!
Your humor, your friends, your INSTITUTION are all in bad taste. I require you to send me a written apology for existing. Your mother and father as well. They are especially to blame for your existence as a white male. Your presence oppresses me as a minority woman.
I recommend you get a sex reassignment surgery to remedy that. And dye your skin black. Only then will you truly understand how wrong you are. About everything.
Thank you jaehwan for enlightening us. You have spoken for us meek and oppressed Asians. Whatever would we do without your omniscient guidance? I admit my follies for letting those white racists oppress me and making me a weak and self-hating Asian.
The chains have been lifted.
P.S. If you met Micah, the person actually responsible for Dogs of Chinatown, you would realize how much the SP really have nothing to do with the content. Micah is a sexist douche that fetishizes Asian women. He’s just a horny asshole. And guess what. He made a movie. If you knew Micah, seeing Dogs of Chinatown would elicit the response, “Wow. I am so not surprised at all.” Perhaps I would have a more positive response to him if I wasn’t an Asian female, but unfortunately I had the displeasure of experiencing him sexualizing me, hitting on me in front of my boyfriend (or to my boyfriend), and making insulting comments about how my boyfriend was “less of a man” and should date him instead.
I noticed how no where in your blogs you mentioned Micah, the person who wrote and directed the movie. No, Blake didn’t write it. No, Eric didn’t write it. and No, the Stunt People didn’t write it either.
I suggest you try to actually figure out what you’re talking about before accusing people of being racist. Especially when they’re not actually responsible for the very subject that you are accusing of being racist.
Once again, you are perpetuating the stereotype that Asians are humorless sticks-in-the-mud and that minorities are a bunch of whiny thin-skinned pussies that just cry about the man putting them down.
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Derek
You wrote: “That particular line about Eric being the de-facto leader of The Stunt People and that being an example of institutional racism is particularly bad. How can you make such a statement like that without any proof?”>
Sorry, you misunderstood me, but my words were ambiguous, so maybe it was my fault. Eric started the Stunt People, and I think he deserves to be in charge. What I meant above was that he runs an institution which is promoting a film that perpetuates stereotypes, and that he therefore should take responsibility for it, since he’s in charge. That’s institutional racism because his actions are supported by an institution.
I agree with everything else you said.
Eric
I think you need a hug from an Asian American person who agrees with everything you do.
Tyler
I didn’t mention Micah because he didn’t join the conversation until later. Remember, this post only came up because of Blake and Eric’s comments on BcB. The early birds get the worm!
You wrote: “So let’s say Tom Hanks is in a shitty horrible offensive movie. By your logic, Tom Hanks is personally to blame and fully responsible for the entirety of the content of the film. But not just that, actually Tom Hank’s entire family is also to blame for the content of the movie.”
Family? Did I ever say anything about Eric’s family? I certainly didn’t. If Tom’s horribly offensive film was against Asians and he had lots of Asians in his group, I’d definitely ask. Is there something wrong with asking? Raising questions?
I’m not saying that Eric is fully responsible either, but don’t you think the LEAD actor bears some responsibility? As Anna said in another post, where do ethics come into play for actors? ALSO, let me say again for the fiftieth time, I’m not calling for a boycott or anything. Just saying. Discussion, people.
You wrote: “Once again, you are perpetuating the stereotype that Asians are humorless sticks-in-the-mud and that minorities are a bunch of whiny thin-skinned pussies that just cry about the man putting them down.”
I’m hurt. Humorless? You don’t think I’m funny? I thought I cracked a few jokes…well, maybe not. Check out that last podcast though–I’m sure I cracked one then, and I’m pretty sure someone laughed. I also used to crack jokes on the 44s. Anyway, I think podcasts are key. I’m funnier over the air than in print.
MN:
Nice to see you back!
The Stunt People are family the same way my BFF is my sister.
It IS the same.
Hi Tyler,
I totally respect the love you have for the Stunt People. I think it’s admirable.
Jaehwan,
Perhaps if you had a better grip on what it’s like trying to get work in the film industry (by BEING there), you’d be picking your fights more selectively, and you’d stop going after the actors. Asians have it tougher in films than other races, it’s true. The Stunt People exist largely outside that system, which may explain why so many Asians come our way.
But a semi-poor white kid gets cast as the lead of a film, gets paid for it, and gets to do kickass fight scenes. A dream come true. Movie comes out, you see poster and trailer, post a blog, and now you’re asking me to apologize for it, on top of insinuating that The Stunt People is a racist institution, of which I’m a “de facto” (nice word choice there) leader. It’s ludicrous.
I’m pretty sure any Asian American who knows me is on my side with this, but I guess they’re all idiots. Perhaps San Francisco tainted them.
“And now that Eric is, in the words of Derek (I don’t want to be accused of putting words into people’s mouths), “trying to distance himself from the content of the film,” I’m guessing that Eric may be starting to see the racism behind it.”
Don’t flatter yourself by taking credit for my “starting” to see anything about the film. I’ve distanced myself from the content of the film since day one when I wasn’t allowed to fix my lines to allow for a smoother reading, a huge challenge I came to accept from Micah. You had no impact on my views. You’ve only drawn attention to my skin color. That’s been your contribution.
Eric:
“Asians have it tougher in films than other races, it’s true.”
Thank you. We finally get some acknowledgement. Why was this so hard?
I mean, seriously, when I read the works of Robert Jensen or Tim Wise, or when I hear speeches by Bill Clinton, or when I talk to Caucasian friends, I know that it’s possible for us to cross cultures and races and see what others experience.
And that’s really what it is. You’re talking to people who grew up watching people who look like us getting slaughtered in Rambo movies. We grew up watching movies in the Orientalist tradition. I never called for a boycott (51st time saying this?), I just mentioned that it’s yet another one, and then I criticized some of your statements on BcB. Trust me, I never would’ve posted this story in the first place had you not made those flippant comments on BcB. When do we get to share our side of the story? Stunt People or not, when do Asian people get to play leading roles which bring out our true skills or show our humanity?
“Don’t flatter yourself by taking credit for my “starting” to see anything about the film. I’ve distanced myself from the content of the film since day one when I wasn’t allowed to fix my lines to allow for a smoother reading, a huge challenge I came to accept from Micah. You had no impact on my views. You’ve only drawn attention to my skin color. That’s been your contribution.”
I don’t know if I’m taking credit or even whether it’s anything to brag about, but I do see a big difference between your early BcB posts and now. I just want to point out what the problem is, so that we can work on it or at least think about working on it. Much of my own focus is on writers, rather than actors. I stand by my statements about institutions, but the main reason it became an “actor” thing is because you post on Asian sites a lot, and you happened to be expressing your views and promoting the movie. Otherwise, as you saw in the first BcB post, the logical people to question are the writer and producer.
Anyway, you’re poor, you took the part, okay. I’m not in your situation, so I’ll just stick to how this tradition has affected people like me.
Peace. I do wish you the best in your acting career.
” but I do see a big difference between your early BcB posts and now.”
Nothing I’m saying is new. My actions with The Stunt People and the claims made by all its Asian members mean nothing to you, you’re blind to all that. I didn’t have to say that “Asians have it tough” because everyone else here has already said it, except you wanted the white guy to say it. Your whole schtick has been to get me to say something so you can finally say condescendingly, “There, that wasn’t so hard, was it?”
Meanwhile I’m trying to defend myself against your antagonizing remarks, with you’re insinuating that I’m a racist and an Orientalist and that The Stunt People is a racist institution headed by a white guy who has dominance over the minorities associated with him. All you wanted was validation from me that Asians have it rough in the film industry. Is it really activism to get a white guy to say something you want by attacking him and his company?
It’s been obvious from this site that Jaehwan does not view people as individuals with personal merits, or he’d have no problem with an individual with extraordinary dedication and talent in choreography getting the lead role of a martial arts film. When viewing the trailer, he doesn’t see Eric as an individual who excels in physical performance, which is what most audiences have seen – Jaehwan just saw a “white guy.” From observing various parts of this blog it seems Jaehwan might be uncomfortable with people who have different points of view, have a different ancestry than his own self-identified group, and even seems to have issue with romantic couples of mixed ethnic backgrounds (in this day and age, I know!). He’s gone as far as defending the usefulness of generalization several times, explaining it’s more useful for him to assume things based on his predisposed beliefs than to have actual individual experiences to evaluate.
The discussion of the film on this blog has been mostly a smaller group of people who claim a similar cultural self-identity and homogeneous point of view calling a larger far more ethnically and culturally diverse and pluralistic group prejudiced. Where’s Alanis Morrisette when you need lines added to an annoying pop song?
As far as the message of the film – it’s a crime noir with criminal characters that are Asian, white, and black and all EXACTLY THE SAME brand of vile suckiness, illustrating that everyone can be douchebags regardless of heritage. All the characters are racist and violent, and they all suffer a terrible demise due to their ignorance and violent behavior. Are the characters stereotypical? Only the ones that buy into their own stereotypes and hollow traditions and believe their own egoist hype – and since they’re all prideful criminals, they mostly all buy in. The film shows the ludicrousness of ethnocentricity and hometown pride – being blindly proud of things one has no control over (like where you’re born, your skin tone, etc) as opposed to individual achievement and progress. If the film could hold an audience attention for longer I could have had the russian and irish mobs, south american drug cartels, african genocide squads, and every other criminal organization in the world play a part so maybe Jaehwan could begin to figure out the message. Three self-identifying groups of characters all being the same kind of douchebag wasn’t enough for him to pick up on the observation.
Moral of the film. If you are racist and violent you will suffer the cyclical fruit of your ignorance and hatred – in this case, gruesome death. You can only hope to get anywhere by putting faith in ideals like love, and abandoning societies fabricated institutions that attempt to define and limit you. And yep, my love irl and in the film is bigger than cultural divides or skin pigment.
Why people here think that a story about racist characters getting punished for being racist, is itself racist, I don’t know. If they say it’s cuz x is white or Asian or black, and y is latino or whatever, they can’t see people or characters as individuals, only as colors. And whatever biased associations they have with those skin tones, they projects on individuals, and like Jaehwan, begin to generalize.
You’re using the “We are the World” approach to race relations, which doesn’t really benefit anyone other than people who promote the status quo. It’s ironic coming from a guy who wrote Dogs of Chinatown. It’s kind of like my friend Xian said: Some white writers are often very white zen: if a tree falls in a forest and there’s no white person there to hear it, they’ll say it never fell.
If you stick around, Micah, I am hoping to write a blog post on the concept of Orientalism within the next week or so. None of your people, other than Derek Lee, have read Edward Said’s book, and so no one is understanding what the word means. I’m not asking you to read this long book, but I think you really need to take a historical look at the interplay of races and cultures before taking the “We are the World” approach to dealing with racial issues.
You can jump ahead of me and check it out (on Amazon or Powells). If not, I hope to post something in the next week or so.
If you’re tired of waiting, also check out the discussion on this post:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/01/the-first-black-first-family/
It’s similar to what we’re talking about.
I still don’t get the racist crap. I’ve almost given up on trying to explain it. Dogs Of Chinatown has stereotypical characters and they all pay for their ignorance in the film. The film wasn’t written with any intention of representing Asian-Americans or any other race in a bad light. So, one person between the two blogs has actually seen the film. He’s stated that all the Asian characters in the film are evil. I AGREE. He failed to mention that all the white people and the couple of African-American characters in the film are also evil and do bad things. They ALL pay the price for their ignorance. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT! Maybe it was an oversight that it was mentioned that only the Asian characters were evil and somehow it was simply forgotten that the rest of the characters in the film (African-American and White) are also evil or maybe there was a biased opinion of the film before the person saw it and intentionally forgot to mention that all the characters are evil instead choosing to say all the Asian characters are evil. I’m sure if you ask aznheartthrob he can clarify his intentions. aznheartthrob seems like a stand up guy and will truthfully clarify that for you.
The characters in the film are stereotypical. The whole point is that they choose to embrace their ignorance and they pay a terrible price for it. The only person who tries to pull themselves out of this world is the only person that survives. Like I’ve said before, maybe we are not great filmmakers but I think that point is obvious in the film. Maybe some ignorant people won’t get that point but there’s nothing I can do about that.
I’m not a minority so maybe I don’t understand a lot of the view points here but I’m trying. People do very stereotypical things. Not all but some. I’ve seen Asian guys running around with a couple of cameras around their necks snapping pictures, I’ve seen Black guys that embrace the whole gangster rap thing and I myself love mayo (pretty stereotypical for a white guy). I’m sure I do plenty of other stereotypical white guy things. We made a film with some characters that represent the worst of those stereotypes and made them pay the price for their unwillingness to rise above their stereotypes. Most people that have seen the film at least get that point. Most people like the film and we are very appreciative. Others found flaws (of which there are many) and were willing to elaborate on what could be better. Again, we are very appreciative that they took the time to give us such a well thought out criticism of the film. And a few have just said it sucked (usually they’ve seen it). That’s okay too. The film’s not for everybody.
As far as having a white guy for the lead role, that’s just the way it worked out. We were really impressed with Eric’s work ethic and skills and we chose him for the lead. I know, myself, I really pushed for him to be the lead based on nothing other than I liked his body of work and thought he’d be great in the role. I do still stand by my decision. He gave us exactly what we wanted. If he were Asian and had the same set of skills then it wouldn’t have made a big difference to me. I produced another low budget film where the stars were an Asian male and a Black male along with a white female. I haven’t run into the race issue in film yet but it’s probably primarily because the budgets have been so low and in martial arts and action films it generally doesn’t make a difference what your leads skin color is. I am aware of race and the difference it can make financially on bigger budgeted films. If we were to make a film with an all Black cast then we really wouldn’t get any sales outside of the US. Wouldn’t stop me from making it. I’d just budget the film appropriately. Maybe the rest of the world has some hangs ups with African-Americans. Don’t know, I haven’t been outside the US (hope to one day). We choose to have ethnically diverse casts. I think we have that luxury because of our budgets and genres and it’s very cool because we can include all of our friends who are very ethnically diverse.
I do agree with Tyler Wang, our females rolls could be a lot stronger. Although Huyen’s character doesn’t really kick ass in the film, she is the only one smart enough to realize a change is needed in her life. I’ve seen Tyler in action and would love to cast her in another film. She has the skills and maybe she’d be willing to educate us a little on making the female character a much stronger role that other women could look up to. That is especially attractive to me now that I have a daughter.
I guess I’m done here. I’ll just close with this. I know what our intentions were when we made the film. Others through their maybe biased opinions may think they know what our intentions but I think I’ve explained here what we were thinking when we made the film. We have a very diverse group of friends and will continue to make films that reflect that.
The film wasn’t written with any intention of representing Asian-Americans or any other race in a bad light.
It’s not always about intention, Blake. It’s about creating something new and leaving the stereotypes that we all have ingrained in us from our upbringing. It’s about change. I’m not questioning your intentions anymore–I agree with Vu that most of you seem to be decent people. In simple terms, I’m just posing the question of why certain patterns of typecasting emerge. I think it’s a valid question since these patterns emerge over and over and over and over.
I’m hoping to post something about Orientalism this week, so even if you’re done posting here (and no pressure to stop–feel free to post as much as you want), I hope you’ll at least check out that piece.
I’ll definitely check out the post on Orientalism. I’m also down for the podcast as well. I’m assuming you have my contact info so feel free to drop me a line. It seems like maybe some progress is being made on both sides here.
But if we do a movie about gangsters, they have to be some human color, unless we can find the long lost Gangsta Smurf. Because they’re gangsters and criminals they have to be bad. We can’t just be sensitive that a criminal character has a (any) skin tone and therefore write a film where the gangsters and murderers ride around on unicorns, dancing across rainbows so we don’t offend anyone who can see they have a similar skin tone, but can’t see that they are not a criminal or murderer like the character.
That’s partly why we have Asian, white and black gangsters in the film. To drive home the point that all criminals are bad – regardless of skin tone – and gangsters may do stereotypical criminal things.
The Chinese gangsters do the same things ALL gangsters around the world do – sell drugs, shakedown businesses, run prostitution rings, etc. I didn’t try to assume any cultural knowledge and include real Chinese-specific social characteristics. Anything that had to do with names, nomenclature or Mandarin language was written by fellow film makers from Taiwan and mainland China.
Nor did I define those gangsters by some fantastic Western Asiaphile view of “the Orient.” They’re not flying around on dragons shooting off fireworks eating sushi and watching anime.
They’re just gangsters doing gangster ish.
The Italians gangsters are the exact same. They do the same crimes as the Chinese gangsters and all other gangsters. The aren’t eating spaghetti or driving Ferrari’s on the stereotypical tip, nor am I trying to delve into the specifics of Sicilian history or culture-specific interaction on the assumption tip.
The black gangsters, like usual, get the shortest end of the stick. The have a cameo, and are violent and corrupt just like the white and Asian gangsters, and all gangsters in the world.
The characters are all gangsters, and all do gangster ish. Except for Wei’s drunkeness as a teacher, there’s nothing about the characters that is drawn from distant Western impressions of “The Orient.” Nor did I assume any cultural understanding of the Italians, black Americans, or Chinese characters. That’s why I made a gangster noir and not a thoughtful drama which would require greater cultural insight and research – But anyone can define gangsters and criminals with the same criminal behavior and the same character flaws.
It’s much more fair to say I robbed the Asian and white and black characters of any unique identifying cultural elements that separates them from each other, than to say I made stereotypical characters that represent a nation or “race.”
In other words I only focus on universal characteristics of all the characters, not culture-exclusive customs or stereotypes. And I don’t single out any cultural group of people in the film. I only stereotype and single out violent criminals, racists and sexists. Yes the film would be even more balanced if there was a Latino gang and Middle Eastern gang to drive home the point that I’m focusing on the universal human condition and not calling out any groups, but I didn’t have the budget or running time to expand it.
Micah and Blake,
Good deal. I’ll post up an announcement for our upcoming podcast later tonight. We can coordinate the details (time, agenda, format, etc.) over e-mail. So far, it’ll be us three plus Eva, who is a minority activist. Vu said that he’ll moderate so that I can talk.
I’m guessing that we’ll probably talk a bit about Dogs, but more about the industry and the nature of stereotypes. Let me know if this works. We can always adjust accordingly. We’ll have a set agenda of topics beforehand.
In the meantime, assuming we do this in the next couple of weeks (I have a prior scheduled podcast this coming weekend), I’ll post some related content that we can discuss here, including the stereotypes article that Micah suggested.
Out of fun I looked at the transcript and swapped all the Asian characters’ and white characters’ lines as well as switching the skin of Jack and Jin. Unsurprisingly, it’s the exact same story, and the characters all have the exact same character flaws, and the moral is the same! There are no cultural or racially-stereotypical references that make the lines or actions odd when performed by a character with a different skin tone and heritage. My only real question was the combat instructor, but that actually works well because in the film Wei had instructed Jack not only to study Suntze, but also Machiavelli, an Italian! Though admittedly as an Italian combat instructor I’d would probably make his fighting style less akin to a traditional Chinese system and remove the trapping dummies from the training.
I don’t know. If I was defining the characters by cultural stereotypes and not solely their criminal lifestyle and mindsets, I don’t think I could instantly switch around the ethnic identities of any character and still have every line and action be perfectly reasonable and logical.
Anyway, food for thought.
The way you, as a white person who rarely gets stereotyped in the media, reads the script is different from the way I, as an Asian person who almost always gets stereotyped in the media, read it.
It could be coincidence that you happened to pick the White guy to be a hero and the Asian woman to be the damsel in distress and all those Asian men to be nameless villains–but isn’t it a fair question to ask why so many American filmmakers/writers choose it in exactly that combination?
I’ll try to post up that stereotypes article in the next day or so.
And FYI, I did go through that trouble for the purpose of trying to fairly and openly evaluate your impressions about the film in a manner both qualitative and quantitative. I think my findings are very revealing that the white and Asian characters are all interchangeable and devoid of cultural characterization for better or worse.
You should definitely ask why American film makers shove white deliverer characters into pseudo-cultural films where those characters don’t logically fit into the story. Hell, I don’t like it either.
But you also should watch a film and ask, is that white lead there because the individual actor fits the role, and his character makes sense in the story? Or is he just awkwardly and embarrassingly squeezed in so that the film could have a white deliverer?
Usually it’s the latter, but stories CAN exist that justify the casting. I think Dogs is one of those rare instance, but I think there’s so many that don’t work that it’s easy for you to assume Dogs is one of those without giving it a fair shake. As long as you keep up a post about Vu calling “us Orientalists out”, I’ll probably assume you still feel that way about us and don’t buy our explanation of the film and it’s characters.
But Jack is not a civil war hero that kayaks to Japan to become the last samurai.
He’s a suicidal loner who’s poor mental health allows him to get caught up in a gang war and strategically used to infiltrate a gang’s territory due to his looks. I’m not saying it’s inventive or original, but the script makes sense, and the characters fit, and the casting fits.
I think we both hate racism, but please don’t think I’m not aware of the free pass I somehow got, and that I don’t hate it for your sake.
Obviously you and I have different experiences with racism due to our skin and background, and have different approaches to combating racism due to both our background and our individual personalities. You are the one who is the target of racism. You have no choice but to respond to it. You don’t always know when to expect it, and on top of the emotional and societal burden it’s going to take up some of your personal time and distract you from your other personal pursuits. You have no other choice than it being a daily concern and part of your life.
From a martial arts analogy, as a target, you are going to start off in a defensive stance. No matter how aggressive you are in seeking out racism, as someone being attacked your first concern will be defense. Then when attacked you will either counter attack or be evasive. Otherwise you could (spiritually, financially, socially, politically, and/or physically be beatdown).
I unfairly have the luxury of ignoring racism if I choose to. But I stand up against it. But I do admit to putting my artistic pursuits foremost in my life, which means in reality I put down racism when I run into it, but I don’t dedicate the rest of my time hunting it down and rooting it out – instead I spend the rest of my time on my art. When I see racism, I challenge it in a manner that’s appropriate. As a martial artist it would be much easier if everything ended in duels and I could plea self defense. But racism can be subtle and tricky and I do my best to think of how to effectively respond. What’s worked best is developing myself as an individual who people respect, and who holds a sphere of influence.
Part of my interest in film is getting out messages of love without boundaries and condemning racism. Since only a third of my friends are white, I have a lot of sadness toward racism. Dogs was an over-the-top condemnation of racism and violence in the medium of deeply cathartic art. I think though that it’s so extreme it’s easy for certain people to interpret as exploitation.
To defend the Asian American cats from The Stunt People (not that they need my words), I think many of them are artists, and as obsessed with creating films as you are about fighting racism. They put their art foremost. That’s OK. That’s their rightful path, just as putting activism foremost is yours. Maybe they could use your voice to help even the playing field, and you could use their art to have tangible products that prove you words. Anyone who thinks creatively enough can always find a solution of mutual benefit.
I think the reason big multi-cultural indiscriminate groups like SP and LBP and our film making group form is so we can momentarily escape to a personal commune of pluralistic acceptance without discrimination, a place where we can work on out art without worrying about the evils and prejudice of the world beyond our cool networks. For that moment.
I can’t be you or understand what it’s like to be Asian or black or anything else. But don’t think I don’t try as best as anyone can to imagine the crap you have to deal with. And don’t think I approve of racism, or skip around with a smile simply because I’m not the target.
Also in the initial post you mention that you think Eric and Blake’s initial comments were inflammatory, but I think it’s one-sided not to mention that before Blake or Eric ever posted, the posters on BCB’s language was also inflammatory. Vu was having fun describing Blake and Eric as stereotypical valley-girl surfer-dude “fratboys” while the other posters called us “faggots” and “crackers” and suggested I have my balls kicked in. What they said doesn’t bother me, nor were those specific comments constructive or useful, but I feel it would be more fair in your initial post if you described the environment Blake and Eric entered and not just their out-of-context response.
But it’s your blog so do whatever you feel is fair and right.
Whatever you feel about us personally is fine. But telling the full balanced story and accurately describing the mannerisms of both sides versus just picking elements out of context is a matter of ethics.
It just seems like we’ve both finally lowered some defenses to open up avenues of personal understanding, and see if there’s any positive things we can share…but every time I see that first post here, I just feel it’s unfair. I think everyone’s opinion is valid so it can only accept it if you think we are racists, but I do think it’s biased for not calling out BCB posters for the exact same type of inflammatory behavior Eric and Blake are accused of.
I know they are white, and not targets of racism in our American society. And I know you are a minority and have to deal with racism everyday. But I don’t think that’s an excuse to treat Blake or Eric, two very generous and kind individuals, without the same respect you are desiring and/or demanding for yourselves.
Believe me, the easiest thing in the world would be to just ignore these 2 blogs, and because of the racist way our society is, we could get by and keep making films without ever trying to listen to viewpoints like your own. But we are here because we do want to hear what you have to say if it can be said in constructive way without needlessly insulting us, which is not how either of these blogs began, and their initial opinions still stand there, glaring down on every attempt both sides make to communicate. I hope will take advantage of this audience of film makers.
Sorry for so much writing here. Anyway, I thought you might be interested in this.
OUR FILMOGRAPHY (projects headed up by Blake or myself) IN CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER – BROKEN DOWN INTO SKIN TONE AND GENDER FOR BYRON WONG
SUPERHUMAN – A Native American hero battles against a facsist army in a dystopiate future.
BLOOD FEUD – A multi-ethnic group of equally heroic leads fight vampires.
HISTORY OF THE TOASTER (my student film) – A heroic badass female lead fights an evil toaster to avenge the death of her female lover.
Z13 – Strong black and Asian paramilitary co-leads rescue a dumb white girl from zombies. The white girl tries to seduce the Asian guy after her rescue, but she’s not good enough for his personal standards.
THE KEY – An ethnic white (think Jewish or Serbian, etc) protagonist fights homogenous futuristic stormtroopers to save his lover.
NVP: Ninjas VS Pirates – An Asian protagonist battles both pirates and ninjas to rescue his lover, a white pirate girl.
ONE SHOT (aka 2fer) – A heroic Asian American soldier must find a way to take out two zombies with only one bullet.
WAR OF THE DEAD pitch short film – A heroic black soldier fights against a white military commander gone rogue.
DOGS OF CHINATOWN – A white suicidal criminal lead gets caught in a gang war between the Mafia and the Triad, and tries to help his lover escape her position as the Triad boss’ mistress.
BEAT DOWN BOOGIE (in pre-production) – Misadventurous but loveable crooks of every skin tone compete to steal a priceless artifact that proves Chinese circumnavigation of the globe prior to European exploration. A ruthless white art collecter has his own plans for the artifact. Toward the the end, all the crooks put their differences aside to team up against the double-dealing collector.
SHADOW OPS (in pre-production) – A group of multi-ethnic equally heroic leads comprise an elite military squad combating an alien threat.
There’s probably some more I’m forgetting, but Brian Lee was probably the heroic star of any others.
I feel silly breaking those down into skin tones, because that has nothing to do with our casting (except for NVP), but it seems real important to you.
Please note that all the leads listed above except in Dogs of Chinatown are unique and heroic – whereas the the character of Jack, which you seem to want so bad as a cinematic representative on the other hand, is a deranged violent psychopath. Nobody should be vying for that character based on skin tone – to do so would be sick and possibly racist against the chosen skin tone that gets cast into that character. Yeah he kills some Asian killers in the film and he equally kills some white killers in the film, and the Asian killers kill some white killers and black killers and other Asian killers. The killers kill killers. For anyone here to interpret the value of a characters skin tone on how criminal and murderous he is is just plain sick.
We don’t cast based on white apologism OR to try to show the world how cultural and senstive we are OR to see a hero we can fantasize as being us. I definately don’t want to be Jack – he’s a remorseless murderer – I’m a pacifist. Our actors fit the characters, and our characters fit the story, and our stories make literary sense. Everyone gets a shot in our films. It just happens so far in our overall filmography that Asian and black and Native American characters have gotten all the heroic roles but one. It was those actors turn. In Dogs, it was Eric’s turn.
Long before Dogs of Chinatown, the second film I spearheaded had an Asian protagonist rescuing and falling in love with the white girl. You dind’t complain about that. Only when it was in reverse. Actually the same Asian actor seduces white women in Dogs of Chinatown and has a white girl throw hersefl at him in z13, and you haven’t complained about that. Only when the guy is white, and getting an Asian girl. I give everyone a shot in my films. Not due to any activism – I’m an artist an artist that came up in multicultural circles and visual homogeny is boring – cultural homogeny is limiting and boring to me.
You might look at that filmmograpahy and still think we have a conscious or subconscious racist agenda. You might a white guy making a film with a heroic Asian lead in a disparate backdrop is racist, and a white guy making a film with a white lead in a disparate backdrop is racist – but if you do, is there anything a white film maker can do that you’d approve of? Do you feel they should only keep to white characters, both villains and heroes and extras? I think that would be boring and sad.
We’re making films for a general pluralistic audience, not the racist faction OR the anti-racism activist faction who both see individual characters as cultural representatives and through their race-based eyes. Blake and I might not agree with your viewpoints about whether Asians and whites should be treated differently as characters especially when it comes to rescuing girls of different skin tones, and we may disagree with your reviews of films without actually seeing them — BUT as white film makers we would be some of the most likely to accidentally make films you’d totally approve of. I think you would totally approve of “One shot,” and it’s scifi, a genre that’s much more beneficial to your cause of getting positive representation in cinema from a business standpoint. Eric is even more likely than us to make films you’d approve of, through purely his own vision and that of his colleagues – not due to people on BCB calling him a “cracker” of “Orientalist”.
In no way does that make us part of your team or in accord with your cause, but it seems obvious that we won’t be respected by you for having heroic leads that are Asian, or black, or white, or Native American. Since we’ve done all that. And that we’ll be faulted by you for having a white lead in one single film, a lead who is a vile person simply because he has an Asian love interest and kills a bunch of people including white and Asian criminals.
If on the other hand, you feel seeing our full filmography broken down shows that Dogs of Chinatown is out of context when trying to rush to judgments of our ideals as film makers and story tellers, and think we migh have the smallest shred of integrity and ability to have a sharing discussion, all we ask is that BCB and Bigwowo try to engage constructively and treat us with the same respect you want want to be treated with. I’ll pledge the same. I feel it’s not giving us any face to go on as if we’re getting somewhere constructive while this blog and BCB continue waving the arguably-one-sided-or-at-least-selective and name-calling original posts like this one in our faces and to the public while we’re trying to sincerely engage you. Even if you think we’re racists and Orientalists, it’s not going to aid our mutual legitimate discussion if you keep those original posts shouting it at us and to the public.
If I wasn’t already an aware person, I’d think a situation like BCB where the posters were engaging in unfair stereotypes and slurs would be a nifty way for you to “open ignorant eyes” on how it feels to be at the receiving end of prejudice, even in that tiny and limited context. However, we’re not idiots. Well I am because I believe that to be the human condition, but I’m not blind. And I don’t think that sort of derogatory language needs to be used from any side in a forum dedicated to education and enlightenment.
I’m between meetings right now, but just a few statements:
“Also in the initial post you mention that you think Eric and Blake’s initial comments were inflammatory, but I think it’s one-sided not to mention that before Blake or Eric ever posted, the posters on BCB’s language was also inflammatory. Vu was having fun describing Blake and Eric as stereotypical valley-girl surfer-dude “fratboys” while the other posters called us “faggots” and “crackers” and suggested I have my balls kicked in.”
1. We’ll cover this in the podcast, but the initial inflammatory action was the placement of your posters in SF Chinatown. Not only do we need to deal with Orientalism, we get it pushed right in our own neighborhoods. I still think it’s Orientalist. Let’s discuss during the podcast. Also, I’ll have a post about stereotypes in the next day or so.
2. Why isn’t your filmography on your All Aces Media website?
3. Given the egregiousness of the stereotypes on the movie poster and websites (and Vu still stands by this, even after seeing your movie), I think it was perfectly acceptable to make fun of it. If you check out some of Pete Lee’s comments to me, I endured at least the same amount of vitriol that any of you endured, probably even worse. Yet I haven’t deleted his comments because…well…sticks and stones. Whatever. Part of being a blogger, artist, writer, whatever is taking criticism.
Our filmmography isn’t listed because it’s not involved with our business mission statement. Our clients are listed. If it was listed, we wouldn’t break down the lead characters like I have above.
Personally I feel part of our misunderstanding is that you might assume we like films like Last Samurai or think ‘wow what a great idea we should do that.’ I think as a storyteller, a civil war hero sailing to Japan and becoming the Last Samurai is as ridiculous as a Japanese samurai sailing to America to win the civil war and free the slaves. I think Tokyo Drift is lazy Hollywood cultural sensationalism , but ignoring the cultural identities, the literary devices are actually much more logical than Last Samurai, because unlike Tom Cruises’ douchbag hevily-flawed character who outlives some good characters – the douchebag protagonist in Tokyo Drift has slightly less character flaws than the antagonist he beats.
We don’t watch those films and think ‘we gotta get in on that theme.’ Just because a film of ours has similar elements out of context, doesn’t mean that our story is as illogical as Last Samurai, and that our casting is forced.
Let me just honestly ask some questions to try to get better insight into your viewpoint.
Do you care that an Asian protagonist rescued and “got” the white girl in distress in one of my films?
Do you care that the most positive male character in Dogs of Chinatown, the Asian martial arts instructor, hooks up with a white girl?
Do you care that a white girl throws herself sexually at the Asian hero in another one of our films?
Do you care that a white guy rescues and “gets” the Asian girl on distress in one of my films?
If your answers vary on the first and last question, then it seems like you feel the characters should be treated differently based on the color of their skin.
We have two posters for Dogs of Chinatown. One has a bunch of ugly white mafia guys and a bunch of ugly triad guys on it together. The other has Jack defending Jin as they run through the city. But no one knows the story by looking at the poster. To imagine you do is blindly and ignorantly assuming. If you are either a white racist or if you think every white guy is racist, then you will IMAGINE the poster refers to a heroic white guy rescuing/stealing a beautiful Asian girl from a community of villainous “Orientals.” But that’s how ignorant racists will look at the poster, either cheering for or hating the white guy. If you are neutral, or pluralistic or at least tolerant of pluralism, then you’ll most likely interpret the poster as a story about love overcoming cultural divides in a tale where both characters are escaping their own background of baggage. And if you are actually educated in film, then you’ll know right off the bat from the posters’ stylism that it’s a noir, and the two lovers on the cover are probably deeply flawed characters escaping multiple threats, either criminals or shady cops or something else. But we don’t expect the general audience to that educated in film.
I understand that racists can look at any film and assume racist things about it. And I understand as an activist you watch films knowing what the racists are thinking and getting all pissed off because of it. But we’re making films for an wider audience who doesn’t think like either of those two interest groups.
If someone wants to imagine they know everything about a film from a poster. Fine. If you want to imagine you know everything about a film and it’s audience and film makers and cast from only seeing the trailer, fine. Some people imagine they know everything about Chinese people from seeing The Green Hornet, and black people from seeing rap videos, and white people from seeing a Klu Lux Klan rally. Some people might think they know everything about a book from reading one quote, or everything about nature from looking out the window, or everything about internal combustion engines by looking at a car. Assumptions are not fact. They are based on ignorance. Ego. And prejudice.
I can only invest so much concern in the hurt feelings of people who are offended based on their predisposed assumptions instead of actual logic and scientific research. There’s nothing I can do about anyone who accepts their general assumptions as cold hard detailed fact. That’s why I choose to tell stories for people who seek specific proof, and ask questions and do their homework, and embrace individual experiences instead of prejudiced assumptions and generalizations.
Vu went out and did his homework. I respect the hell out of that. Based on this I’ve tried to extend our mutual understanding.
His comment was that all the Asian characters are deeply flawed and vile. Blake and I have both asked him whether he recognized that the white and black characters were also extremely vile and had the exact-same character flaws, flaws that are not culture-exclusive.
Unless I missed it, which is possible in these threads, I have not seen an answer, and am therefore have been unable to progress my personal discussion with him.
In hopes you’ll watch at least one of our films, I’ve uploaded our shortest one.
I sincerely invite you to watch. It’s free and less that 3 minutes long.
Unfortunately the version I have has a temp soundtrack, not the final audio.
http://vimeo.com/4409107
It’s not Dogs of Chinatown, but i have a feeling the characters are just as Orientalist.
Hey guys, even though I think we share a lot of the same concerns, but obviously have no choice in the difference of our backgrounds and subsequent vantage points, I’ve been trying to take your input and my observations and try to develop a more scientific litmus test for individual films. It’s incomplete and imperfect, but please feel free to incorporate some of the ideas and add to it.
SOME IDEAS ON EVALUATING BOTH STORYTELLING ABILITY AND CULTURAL SENSATIONALISM IN DRAMATIC FILM
1. STORY VS INDUSTRY – Is the lead character justified in the story, or is he just awkardly stuffed into the story to satisfy audience demographic and film maker bias?
2. LOGIC VS FANCY – Is the story rational and do the characters all make logical sense in their actions and outcomes? Or is reason ignored and logic stretched in order to progress the status and actions of some characters? Are all characters effected equally by the same rules of the films universe?
3. RESPONSIBILITY VS GLORIFICATION – Are the themes responsible? Are characters ultimately punished for criminal behaviour, prejudice, and violence, or are they ultimately rewarded? Is there value shown in noble acts and positive character traits such as universal love, kindness, and tolerance? Are the positive and negative character traits universal, or singling out specific groups of people?
I understand your concerns are much broader than simply these issues. However, for the sport of it, if you evaluate films based on the concepts above,
You’ll find Last Samurai guilty of Industry, Fancy, and Glorification
You’ll find F&F: Tokyo Drift guilty of Industry and Glorification (the logic of events and characters is much more arguable in that film)
But in Dogs of Chinatown, while sharing several surface visual elements with those two films, is not guilty of any of the negative factors listed above.
I can understand how you’d reach that assumption given the film making industry. And you probably have some concern over several elements in the film that outwardly resemble prejudiced and irresponsible cliches from white film makers, but we took special care to ensure that all those elements made logical and responsible sense in this particular story and film.
(Also, please check out the short film I posted above if you have time. It’s nothing special as a film, but non-MA action and sci-fi lead roles like that are going to be the most beneficial roles to your immediate cause of expanding AA acceptance and representation in cinema purely from a film business standpoint.)
Good movie, Micah.
Thanks Byron Regardless of our disagreement on Dogs of Chinatown, I hope our overall filmography is more revealing of our personal characters and consistent messages in film making. Even if I am culturally ignorant (I don’t deny having a limited vantage point), my best friends in this world whom I love with everything I have are several black guys, several white guys and a white girl, several Asian guys and an Asian girl, and 1 Mexican and 1 Native American guy – I want the best in this world for all of them. I love them.
Blake grew up in a town with landmark civil rights tragedies and very progressive movements both in the African American and gay community. In fact Greensboro’s nickname by the gay club crowd spin was Gaysboro when I DJ’ed there. The third member of All Aces, Andy Coon, has dedicated years of his life making documentaries about social injustice in Greensboro. He’s chronicled racist corruption of the police force, discriminatory prison sentencing of the son of a black activist (two life sentences for simple burglary), and the historic Greensboro Massacre where the Klan murdered several Communist Worker protesters in broad daylight and got away with it. During a recent civil suit over the Massacre, the taped evidence had been conveniently destroyed, but surprise – Andy had made the only backups during his documentary that no one knew about – and supplied them. There was finally a fraction of justice from that suit.
He made the documentary for free public consumption and I can provide a link if you like. Even though it’s not stylish enough to win a majority of festival awards, Andy still pays to submit it in order to get the truth out.
Anyway, I’m not trying to paint the picture of us as worldly or understanding or sensitive. I’m an asshole – everyone knows that. But whether we purposefully or accidentally have art you don’t approve of, our past and out future is still going to be giving our diverse network of talent an equal shot of being heroes, anti-heroes, and villains. Sometimes aspects of their characters might coincidentally match stereotypes. But that’s just coincidence, and I think the bigger audience will understand that. I also understand that racist mindsets won’t distinguish that, and it’s understandable you’d be upset and consider some art ammunition for those limited perspectives. Some people think responsibility demands artist to limit such art, and other feel that limiting the art because of how biggots might interpret it would be catering to the racists. Both those points of view are very valid. One is more likely to come from victims of racism who unfairly suffer daily being in a social sphere that includes discriminatory people – much respect and understanding needs to be paid to those muted voices. The other view is more likely to come from the art culture that embraces pluralistic acceptance, where the members of the community see individual artistic merit and celebrate the aesthetic beauty of diversity but don’t differentiate any value of skin tone – these voices need to be sensitive to the racism and hurt going on in the world and the potential effect of their art – however some activists should recognize these people, as ignorant as we may or may not be to the world outside of our rainbow bubble – our mindsets are often those that should be aspired to in a pluralistic future of equality, where there’s no racial offense or defense, just people who should be respected based on sharing the human condition.
It’s like Ed says, everything has it’s pro and con. Let’s try to find both the good and the ill in everything.
Ohh I also wanted to mention military-style groups with positive heroic missions are a great place so start familiarizing the public with more minority leads and multi-racial casts. Because that setting really illustrates how similar all individuals are despite their backgrounds (sharing traits like courage, fear, brotherhood, etc), and how they need to respect and help each other equally to accomplish objectives or they will fail as a group (moralistic analogy for society).
As a storyteller I love this group of characters because I can employ my broader study of combat strategy and tactics. We’ve done these groups in the past, and it’s the type of film Blake’s working on now.
PS, isn’t Brian Lee a hottie? If I was a girl…….
“Ohh I also wanted to mention military-style groups with positive heroic missions are a great place so start familiarizing the public with more minority leads and multi-racial casts. Because that setting really illustrates how similar all individuals are despite their backgrounds (sharing traits like courage, fear, brotherhood, etc), and how they need to respect and help each other equally to accomplish objectives or they will fail as a group (moralistic analogy for society).”
I think this is a great idea. It’s kind of like team sports, but it’s on the military field.
No doubt, sports is a great idea too!
Or from another angle even a big Olympics event movie that follows all the different national groups to reveal their commonalities would be neat, especially if they spend some positive time mingling. Kind of like Planet B-Boy (if you haven’t seen it, I highly recommend it – the Japanese and Korean teams are incredible.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfq2Zwr0ABM
I’m hoping in our podcast we can discuss specific strategic character placement of Asian actors to make the most positive impact on American audiences. Since I’m a kung fu guy, i’m always thinking minimal effort for maximum effect. Then when you ramp up the effort the effect will be tremendous.