BKS Iyengar
(Image from Yoga Iyengar de Marseille)
But what has ego done to procreation, to the harmonious union of complementary opposites? It has twisted it into an act of egoic self-affirmation. Lust is self-validation through consumption. Control through the exercise of power.
–BKS Iyengar, Light on Life, p. 87 (ISBN-10 1-59486-524-8)
Here is what I intend to be my final piece on Asian PUA (Pick Up Artistry). I hope I can refer to it whenever anyone asks me a question about PUA and IR from now on. I want to put some measure of finality into this, and with that goal in mind, I wanted to create a milestone from which we can move on. The IR debate, of course, will most likely continue in some form or another, but after this piece and the ensuing conversation, I’m done with PUA. In this piece, I make some statements about PUA, and I hope that no one takes any of the statements personally. I tried to make it as compassionate as I could, and I’m indebted to everyone who has pushed the conversation forward–we needed to have this talk, and I’m honored that you have all been supportive, even those whose actions have surprised me. I mean this in a genuine way. Even though I witnessed some bizarre behavior while on my quest for answers, we would have not come to this point of our understanding without the participation of all of you. I honestly thank you.
IR, interracial relationships between Asian women and white men, has always been a major part of the Asian American socio-political dialogue. It’s been such a contentious issue that the major Asian American site ModelMinority.com only allows people to discuss the issue within one specific virtual room. The Fighting 44s drew much of its initial popularity from discussions on IR, and columnist Jeff Yang, according to Thymos member Larry, calls IR the “third rail” of Asian American politics. As early as the 1970′s, Frank Chin, one of the early pioneers of Asian American activism, focused hard on the absence of Asian male/Asian female pairings in literature (Mr. Chin’s work is probably the best I’ve seen on the issue). So when William Lee, an activist from the former Fallout Central, took a bootcamp from the ABCs of Attraction where he learned to pick up women, he began thinking of turning it into a form of activism. After all, he said, if Asian American men complained about IR and had trouble attracting women because of their race, why not address the issue directly by making it a cornerstone of activism? JT, the leader of the ABCs, had so far missed the mainstream with the idea, so by taking the PUA concept and merging it with William’s talents in activism, they rationalized that they could make big strides in activism by teaching men to be “better with women.” William closed down Fallout Central, started Better Asian Man, and focused his podcasting and workshop talents into promoting Asian Pick Up Artistry through the ABCs of Attraction.
It’s taken me a while to get to the bottom of the topic of PUA–there were so many layers to uncover. You can see my earlier views here and here. After getting to know the community, the method, and seeing and hearing about some of these guys in action, my views have since changed. There are two problems with Asian PUA, practice and theory, and these two problems essentially guarantee failure on a moral level for both the organization and general empowerment. I’ll first talk about practice and theory and why Asian PUA is not a good thing. Afterwards, I will discuss what we can do to help Asian men who have problems communicating with women, as well as the next step in fixing a broken social atmosphere.
Practice
In order to have a useful dialogue, it’s helpful to acknowledge that the stated intentions of Asian PUA and the actual practice are two entirely different entities. One of the reasons it took me so long to find out the real story behind PUA is that although the adherents constantly mention honesty, they bob and weave and misrepresent the truth whenever people ask direct questions–some of them do this intentionally, while others simply don’t know how to answer. When you get to the bottom of the story, it’s apparent that PUAs hide the actual practice because they are embarrassed by it. If you look at this thread here for example, honest questions by female posters are greeted with an answer that says, in effect, “Well, you need to fly out to New York in order for to see for yourself.” It’s a needlessly complicated answer to the easy question of what PUA really is.
So here it is in a nutshell:
1. Respect for women: There’s no respect for women within the Asian PUA world. Zero. Sometimes this disrespect is unintentional, but sometimes it’s absolutely intentional. PUAs objectify women, giving them labels such as HB10 (“Hot Babe 10.”) They encourage men to post “lay reports” about women with whom they sleep. Some of the instructors even post pictures of women on their site, some of whom explicitly ask not to be included. Both students and instructors all do this. Read this post where someone who knows the community and has dated a pickup artist talks about how they encourage men to get around women who say no to sex.
What’s worse is that the PUAs in charge make no effort to fix this, nor have they denied the accusation. I’ve learned from someone that took the course that the culture behind the ABCs is one which denigrates men who don’t sleep with (or claim to sleep with) lots of women. They keep tallies of who sleeps with whom, and they constantly promote bad behavior with their lay reports and field reports. It’s all about who gets the most sex. Getting sex, of course, is not bad, but when it’s a person’s only measure of self-worth, it doesn’t amount to much.
On an activist level, this is troubling. How can you stand for something good when your teachings aim to further disempower women who have historically faced problems with objectification and sexism? How can you claim to help men when you are realigning their value system with nothing but sex? It’s a strange contradiction. The Asian Playboy says, “If you want the woman of your dreams, you need to be the man of her dreams too.” Unless the man of her dreams is a leech who tries to circumvent the legal definition of rape through brute force perseverance, I fail to see how the ABCs curriculum encourages being the man of any woman’s dreams.
2. Honesty and character: To answer this question, look here. There really isn’t much to say beyond this–one of their lead instructors plagiarized in order to attack a woman that he used to know, and this instructor happens to teach the ABCs ethics class. In the end, this instructor did the right thing by removing his theft and correcting himself, but he failed to do the honorable thing, which would be to apologize for his actions. He could have apologized to the woman whose writing he plagiarized. He could have apologized to the members of the 44s who put time and effort into understanding him. He could have apologized to the people who have supported him. He could’ve apologized to people like me and King4aDay, who put our trust in him and whom he betrayed and threw under the bus. But he didn’t apologize, nor did any of the ABCs instructors, all of whom were aware of the incident.
The lead instructor shouldn’t have plagiarized in the first place, but perhaps even more disturbing is the behavior exhibited by his students right after his plagiarism. The post has since been removed from the ABCs of Attraction community forum, but if you had looked right after the plagiarism, you would see that this breach of ethics was accompanied by the most despicable, vile sexism and misogyny directed at the woman from both instructors and students of the ABCs. These people kept saying stuff along the lines of “Who cares what he did? He’s helping us get some, so we support him!” I can maybe understand if William has an ethical lapse, but a whole organization? That would be like the entire Christian church rallying behind Ted Haggard and saying, “He has a right to sleep with gay prostitutes! Who cares, as long as he’s getting us into Heaven!” How hard is it to ask your leader not to plagiarize? Any organization in which ethics takes a back seat to self-interest is problematic.
3. Relationships: Make no mistake, PUA is about sex, not about creating relationships. If you look at the ABCs message boards, PUA’s brag about sex. They write about the women they sleep with, creating what they call “lay reports.” The modus operandi is to sleep with as many women as possible. This is encouraged, by the admission of people in the community.
It’s amazing because to the outside world, the PUA instructors are constantly telling people how long term relationships are best. Read the Asian Playboy’s AsianWeek report, or read BetterAsianMan’s blog, and that’s what they love to tell the outside world. Yet none of the instructors are in long term relationships, and when they date women, they treat them with a flagrant disregard for respect, honesty, and equality. As King4aDay from the Fighting 44s points out, you would think that people who teach men to be good with women would try harder to understand women. But the PUA approach isn’t one that encourages listening. It encourages the “brute force” approach, even going as far as to circumvent the objections of women who say no to sex (and again, I didn’t see this, but when it was brought up, NO ONE contradicted it, and some even tried to defend the approach.).
Most people who look at the curriculum of the ABCs would see lots of beautiful words about trust, honesty, and openness, while the public information on APB’s site about the practice itself is blatantly sexist. The typical PUA excuse is that it’s just marketing, and that the practice is actually quite respectful. But if you look at the practice, it’s clear that the practice is also sexist, despite whatever claims they make to the contrary. Like peacocking PUA’s, they become adept at hiding the truth.
As activists, we value practice above any kind of theory, and in order to see something for what it really is, we judge actions. Clearly, the actions of the ABCs of Attraction, both those of its clients and instructors, are reprehensible. They perpetuate the worst stereotypes and behavior, and they create a mindset that only further disempowers women and damages men by doing exactly the opposite of what they tell the world they’re trying to accomplish. Some of these instructors/PUAs know better, but they do it anyway. It’s vile, and both PUA and the ABCs of Attraction ought to be condemned by anyone with a moral conscience.
Theory
This is the question that comes up more often than any other, and it was actually this question which first stoked my interest in PUA. The question is as follows: Even if the practice is bad, can’t we learn something from what they do?
The answer is that you can always learn something from anyone, but in this case, you can’t learn by example.
There are a number of good things PUAs do. If you look at their curriculum, they supposedly ask people to be honest, direct, and to have open communication. They ask men to get to know themselves and what they have to offer. These aren’t bad actions, and they could be good habits if the practice adjusted to the theory–as I mentioned above, the words usually don’t match the actions. However, these prescriptions for good living aren’t original. If you look at Tony Robbins or any of these other relationship/success teachers, they all say the exact same thing (and in fact, this is where PUAs originally found their inspiration, and therefore it’s also a part of APB’s “lineage“), and more often than not, they teach it in a way that more accurately reflects what they’re teaching. The PUAs also have an extensive support network that teaches men to help one another. This is very good. If Asian American activists had that kind of network, we’d be unstoppable. But of course, the activist effort is harder since a good activist doesn’t dwell on ego.
Now the problem that PUA faces–and this is all PUA, not just the ABCs–is that they are driven by sex and therefore ego. Men join to boost their own confidence, and they define their self-worth by how many women they sleep with. As the wise Mr. Iyengar noted in the quote above, “It has twisted it into an act of egoic self-affirmation.”
I’m not saying that men should go off to an ashram and be celibate for the rest of their lives. It’s clear to me that men will always need women and will always judge themselves by the women they attract, more so than women will judge themselves by men. That was the point behind my second piece on Asian American Maleism–the genders tend to behave differently. There’s a definite asymmetry that exists when comparing the two genders. At the same time, if your entire cause is focused on ego, your entire cause is doomed to failure. It becomes one giant ego fest, a movement which is unable to get out beyond one’s immediate sexual needs.
This was the problem with the Better Asian Man’s ethical breach. He was unable to see past his own ego, and his followers were also unable to see past their own selfish needs. No one pushed for higher principles because principles took a back seat to ego. When the going got tough, it was either every man for himself, or every man for the cult leaders.
Indeed, that’s the problem with men. If you create a culture where men think with their penises before anything else, you can be sure that anything that has to do with principles, cultural advancement, love, real emotions, intelligence, or progress will be doomed to failure. BKS Iyengar realized this, as does anyone else who deals with lots of people. People wind up cheating one another and doing everything for the purpose of affirming their own fragile egos.
This is why PUA as an activist movement fails.
Post-PUA Empowerment for Asian Men
Almost all intelligent Asian Americans see that Asian American men face an upward battle in the American social scene, and this includes people like Tan and Hong Kingston whose actions and words have been mostly, in my opinion, anti-Asian male. There is no question that the American social scene has wreaked havoc on Asian American lives. It’s even become a standing joke among non-Asian people. I agree that we need to do something about it, and I would agree with the PUAs that any action needs to take place on the ground level through some form of actual mentoring, rather than just a website, book, or other form of mass media.
There is no one right way to fix the gender divide. What would work for a Goth male meeting a Goth female would probably not work with a Senior VP executive meeting another Senior VP executive or a Goth meeting a Senior VP, for that matter. Human beings are diverse, and people have different tastes and lifestyles.
This is an institutional problem, and we need institutions to fix it. The ABCs is an institution, of course, but we need honest institutions guided by strong ethical principles and strong people who are willing to enforce these principles. The IR disparity is a serious problem that requires serious effort with people who have the discipline to become better people. On a theoretical level, the goals of these institutions need to go beyond sex for the reasons presented above. They need to go beyond just selfish ego, and they need to focus their energies on the improvement of society rather than just “getting some.”
People have presented a number of very good solutions to this problem, and I’ll list them here.
2. Kimtae’s solution
post #19
I recommend all of these solutions–or combination of these solutions. All emphasize honesty, and all emphasize self-mastery. These solutions will most likely be most powerful, however, as part of an institutionalized effort, and for the institution, I would emphasize something that Xian wrote (and that the Carnegie Method emphasizes as well):
Sincerely care about others and portray that unconditionally. If you are merely selfishly pursuing folks, anyone with a decent head on their shoulders will figure that out, so you will attract idiots or people who have security issues. If you like that, and you can do it without being abusive, more power to you, but that’s not where happiness is for most people. Do good things for others, but don’t see it as some type of pussy flea-market. Expecting intimate attention and sexual possibilities for niceness is creepy!
The point is that it can’t be a selfish endeavor. Picking up women is not nearly as hard as these PUAs make it out to be, and turning it into a science is counterproductive. It’s like Tom Cruise says in The Game: if you spent as much time on trying to improve other aspects in your life, think of how much you could accomplish.
William points out that he was an activist long before becoming a PUA, and he tells us how it didn’t help him with women. While I believe his account, I’d also posit that he failed because he was doing activism with the wrong mindset–he was thinking only of his own ego and wasn’t trying to help others. Activism and community engagement is hard when you don’t have the right intentions.
If the intentions are right, however, community engagement is the best thing. You can contribute to an Asian American activist group, and it will help the IR disparity because it will empower the men and women around you. You can contribute to a motorcycle club, and it will help the IR disparity because it will empower the men and women around you. You can run a book club, and it will help the IR disparity because it will empower the men and women around you. Anything you do will help the IR disparity, as long as:
1. You are creating community
2. You’re working as part of an institution
3. You’re coming into it with the right mindset
4. You learn to express yourself
5. You’re concentrating on improving the lives of the people around you
6. You provide room where Asian men AND women can speak honestly about what they feel and have experienced
This is the answer. It’s simple because it’s straightforward. No negging, AMOG-ing, or any of the other games that PUAs play. It’s complex because it’s institutional, and it takes skills and dedications to build or recreate institutions.
In any case, I’m not content just to provide the theoretical solutions. I’d like to help create the solution. So we will have a podcast coming up very soon, and I hope to provide dialogue that will jumpstart community projects that can help us with this IR problem. The IR problem comes in large part from colonized thinking. I don’t know if institutions are strong enough to totally destroy that colonized mindset, but I’m positive that we can improve the situation together, and I hope that you will all join me in putting our efforts into doing the right thing. Thanks for reading. Feel free to throw ideas out on this blog post, or e-mail me to let me know if you’re interested in participating in the podcast.
Acknowledgements: I need to thank the Fighting 44s, who first introduced me to the concept of PUA and gave us a place to discuss it. Thanks especially to Dialectic, Lopan, Ellen, Box, Xian, Kwak, Kimtae, THX, minbo, King4aDay, and urB4N, who helped pushed the dialogue in a constructive manner. Thanks to the Asian Playboy, who took the “Mystery Method” and marketed it as an Asian movement. I still respect you for pushing the dialogue, even though I don’t approve of what you do. Thanks again to John Kwak, who showed me that there are always people in need and that there are always good people in every organization. Thanks, Jin, for revealing the truth about PUA. We all would never have learned the truth without you, and though you yourself endured tough attacks from both pro- and anti-PUA proponents, you exhibited bravery and perseverance. Thank you. Thanks to the BetterAsianMan William Lee, who has pushed the dialogue on this issue, and who has taught me, both directly and indirectly, intentionally and unintentionally, what PUA is all about. You’ve got lots of talent. Lastly, thanks again to kimtae and xian, who provided alternatives early in the conversation and who were unfairly ignored by people who were pushing an agenda. Your contributions were never forgotten. Now we can finally move forward.
Related posts:
My. Head. Just. Exploded. Am I so behind the times that this much online effort seems so anticonducive to actual “hooking up”? (and the fact that I had to put quotation marks around those words should age me…)
I do remember when Better Asian Man came to Kimchi Mamas site and solicited readers – it seemed so farcical that Asian men needed hook-up and playah instruction manual that it appeared racist even.
Am I just too old for this dialogue or am I merely out of touch for living in the midwest?
Okay, I’ll take your word for it that this will definitely be the last post about the Asian PUA scene. It looks like you’ve spent quite a deal of time on this topic and have read this from all angles — from what I can tell. One thing that still strikes me just by reading this piece is that Asian American male masculinity is pretty much at the heart of the issue. If Maxine Hong Kingston keeps selling “Women Warrior” and “China Men” books at the rate she’s been for the past 25 years or so, this reconfirms the fact this uphill climb for AA men will be a long and arduous one. Not to mention we have people like William Lee of BAM pimpin’ the APB’s agenda. If you ask me, these guys do a major disservice to Asian men as a whole. He might be a good guy and have good intentions, it doesn’t mean he’s not misleading the people that are taking his “bootcamps”. And I don’t even know why it’s called a “bootcamp” in the first place. Like I’ve said before, if they wanna learn to pickup women, then they should be joining a general PUA group and not one designed to help “asexualized” Asian men. Just to be clear, that doesn’t mean that I condone misogyny or chauvinism. From where I stand, I don’t even think that there should be a PUA entity in the first place.
I read Xian’s post and it was very endearing to me. Firstly, we need to put a stop to this covert mainstream racism against Asian men. I know that there are jokes being told when we aren’t there, even between other men and women of color. Sure, we might not have the respect we deserve, but we have to earn it. We need to play the game the right way and prove that we are competitive. Be it professional sports, politics, porn, acting, weightlifting, racing, boxing — it needs to be out there so people can see. When I see people like Manny Pacquiao drop other folks like it’s hot, I get a rush. When I see Shinseki tell congress what he really thinks, I say to myself, “he’s my fucking hero.” He’s my ambassador and people respect him. We need great Asian male ambassadors that can play the game so well, they change attitudes. They’re the ones that shape the landscape for us so we can thrive. That’s what we need. We need to find our voices and get them read without any red tape because some asshole thinks it’s not what his readers want. They want a fairytale about what country we’re from and the exotic foods we eat and the accents we command so it gets them all giddy inside. I say “fuck that”.
And from what I can tell, we get suppressed. Asian men need to have an awareness that their actions — ridicule and self-mockery — come at a cost to all of us. It only applies to Asian men because we’ve been in a state of nonacceptance. When you look at reality TV, you’ll see exactly where I’m coming from. Those negative stereotypes keep replaying like a broken record. And the more these Asian men want to be famous, the more they’re willing to do anything for their fifteen minutes of fame. And as the story goes, “another one bites the dust.” I’m at the state where I don’t even blame it all on Whites anymore, because it really does takes two to tango. And these Asian male clowns need to be held responsible for their actions. You might think I’m from Uranus and you’re from Mars, but that’s exactly how I feel about this whole ordeal.
We can’t keeping buying into the mainstream’s stereotypes about ourselves. We didn’t write those, someone else with a motive and intent did. They show AF/WM ads all day long to keep reinforcing them. It’s to a point now where we’ve come to accept it as a social norm. Hence, it gets played out in the real world. Then come the lonely Asian men who pretty much are left with nothing but bitterness. They feel unattractive and they get insecure about their looks and physical appearances. Then the self-hate kicks in and the self-esteem drops below zero. I’ve been there, I’ve fought it, and I won. And I commend Xian for his openness because it’s good to know that there are strong Asian men carrying out the fight. You gotta learn to love yourself in your own skin. And it’s hard out there for an Asian American male if you’re not given the time of day.
The problem is, there are so many variables that separate each Asian culture and subculture. We’re not on the same page. Not to mention, we have Asian people who thrive off the fact that they’ve been accepted as ‘Honorary Whites’. They, in turn, reap the benefits of White Privilege. We have Asian women who’ve never dated Asian men and emasculate them before the public without even realizing the repercussions. Asian females also have their own stereotypes behind them, but it honestly doesn’t even come close to the brunt that we have to bear everyday. Say what you will, but that’s the truth that’s evidenced in the mainstream media every single day. And until that day comes when we realize that this image war needs to be fought by an aggressive awareness campaign, I’ll keep standing my post.
To me, no strategies or methods can ever replace the absence of self-love. And when you can’t stand bearing yourself in your own skin (e.g. Michelle Malkin), you just become fodder in a predominantly White society that emphasizes white beauty — ‘purity’ — and demeans your existence.
Hope I didn’t deviate too much. Thanks for the great narrative, research, and references. -TMM
Forgive me if I sound naive (thought about this post quite a bit this morning, a bit more awake and after reading the comment after my first somewhat flippant one) but intellectual resistance and not-so-intellectual resistance (i.e. lessons on how to be smooth while picking up chicks, especially white/blonde/oh-media-supported-sex-symbols of female variety) seem to further the perpetuation of self-hatred and emasculation of Asian men.
For as many Asian women who say they never date Asian men, I know just as many Asian men who claim that they would never date Asian men. David Mura, a Japanese-American writer, devoted a lot of writing on his aversion to sex, despite his love for sex, with Asian women, that it’d be like fucking his own sister. And yes, I sat through a reading of those excerpts, as the only Asian woman in the room. Talk about being desexualized completely in one sitting of literary reading.
We’re not really talking about a whole image of Asian men, are we? We are talking about the sexual empowerment and physical image of Asiam men, i.e improving oneself by working out, weight lifting, “being less geeky” or whatever the traits that have been embraced as a “stereotype” of Asian men.
I do agree that absence of self-love plays a huge part. Isn’t it true of all humans? This feels so much like self-prophecy being fulfilled. I had initially thought that websites that instructed (specifically) Asian men to be better pick-up artist, or be more attractive to (white) women were satirical. If they are the real thing, in my one Asian woman’s humble opinions, they are geared toward the exact kind of Asian men I do not want to date.
The sexy Asian man embraces his intellect, his quirky humor, his more-evolved smooth hairless chest, and that he is not like a typical stereotypical stud you see in typical Hollywood media but, for that reason, a rare find.
A man who is a product of these PUA sites or any other site that wants to shape Asian men into god-knows-whose-idea-of-smooth-operators would seem to me quite pathetic.
(sorry – am coming very late into the discussion, I’m afraid, since this is your LAST post and my first exposure to this topic.)
(oops – it should read: “For as many Asian women who say they never date Asian men, I know just as many Asian men who claim that they would never date Asian women.”)
Asian Male PUAism is a method and way of life to raise self-esteem by abusing females for their own self-gratification. That is the primary purpose and it is not explained in those terms because on the SURFACE, the overarching principle is respect and honesty (but the actions itself are contradictory to the surface principles).
Because I’ve seen/witnessed the practices multiple times and understand the methods, and although it appears to have good intentions for males, the whole problem with PUAism is the protecting the ego and being selfish with complete disregard for others. That is not the way any decent human being should live. What happened to compassion? Sympathy? Respect? It’s completely obliterated in PUAism.
Picking up women is not an art form. It should not be a way of life.
By resorting to pua methods (sarging, amogging, negging, posting lay reports, kino-escalating, DHV aka bragging, etc), asian male puas are giving the entire asian male race a bad reputation. Such methods disrespect women of ALL races.
The abc/bam method further denigrates asian men because it is truly an utterly selfish “me me me” mentality that has no focus on the respect of others. They use women and sex to gain confidence. All the field reports, lay reports about their sexcapades, and the accompanying photos are used to all show off. The purpose is for self-satisfaction/pride, showing off and putting down women as merely sex objects to be toyed with for personal gain.
I feel bad for the genuinely good asian guys out there. Asian male puas are tainting the emotional ingenuity behind humans.
The guys that women are interested in are modest, don’t resort to showing off or contrived methodologies and have genuine compassion – these are the types that women want to be with in the long run, not PUAs.
Good point you make about David Mura, Mama Nabi. It just so happens that he’s not the author of the most popular book, “Women Warrior”, ever taught at the college level. One more thing, the absence of self-love is evidenced by the “gender divide” between Asian men and women.
W and Mama Nabi,
I don’t wanna make it seem like I’m singling out AF’s at all. I think every party — White Society, AM, and AF — all should be held to account for this. But I notice that when AM’s write about AF’s being part of the problem, it starts to go downhill from there. But not including them would be ignoring the impact they do to the landscape. There’s sensitivity issues there, I understand, but the points need to be laid out.
MM:
I focused primarily on AMs (not by trying to target them at all) but because abc/bam focuses on asian male issues specifically – that’s their ‘target’ audience. And I don’t think no ‘one group’ really is to blame (but I think a flawed “system” and flawed methodologies can be blamed to a degree, which spirals into perpetuation of sexism).
Truthfully, I’d prefer not to discuss race or gender divides, but there are clearly issues there. And it’s important to bring those issues to light and that opinions/experiences get voiced so all parties can be openminded about understanding the opposite sex, which in turn may help ppl understand/improve themselves more.
2 issues with all the comments.
1.) You’re all thinking about how things should work, not how things work in reality. Now, it’s not bad to be an optimist but when your solution is completely off base in regards to the actual problem, you’ll never get the proper resolution.
2.) The sense of lost masculinity stems from both media and AF actively participating by marrying and dating white men. Therefore, Asian men lash out and try to get it back by dating white women or find that they can get it back by dating out in large volumes. Thus, Asian women are directly contributing to this issue in the first place.
Pingback: Gender Divide Podcast | big WOWO
uRB4N, well said. Let me say that I am a strong proponent of mutual respect between men and women and health long-term relationships, however as things are now AM’s are not allowed to be individuals, and most importantly they are not allowed to be men. The main issue is that the stereotypes about Asian-American women generally elevate them to a status that is near or on the level of white men and women whereas the stereotypes about Asian-American men push them down to near the bottom of the barrel so right off the bat there is a disparity. An AM immediately has a number of prejudices held against him even before he says a single word, and often said AM is not given a fair shot and tearing down those stereotypes, which IMHO is where PUA may be of assistance to some. I am far from an expert on PUA but from what little I know it’s not a perfect system and yes there is a lot of objectification, but unfortunately progress will not be made until the weaker side can have two feet to stand on.
It’s comparing apples to oranges but let’s take the state of Black America after the Civil War. Yes, blacks were technically “free” but we all know that progress was not made until blacks started fighting back and started standing up for themselves. Civil rights were not won by being respectful and nice. Programs like affirmative action are not fair, but it’s apparent that when you simply work hard and be respectful, there’s another giant wall called politics and prejudice that must be overcome and you cannot always combat politics by being politcally correct.
There are guilty members on both sides, I am not absolving anyone of fault. There is more that AM’s can be doing to better themselves and finding more appropriate solutions to the issues at hand. However it’s a Catch 22–just like more desirable jobs where you need experience to get the job, but you also need the job to get experience in the first place. Likewise, men are expected to have experience in a variety of areas, but when those opportunities are limited or non-existant, more extreme measures should be looked at. Like it’s been mentioned before, no one else has tried to come up with another solution.
Hey Hurricane,
Thanks for visiting! Kwak tells me that he met up with you and that you’re a good guy. Glad to hear it!
I’m done posting on PUA; as I mentioned, it was my last post. The only thing I might say is that you wrote: “Like it’s been mentioned before, no one else has tried to come up with another solution, but there are three solutions in that nearly 3,000 word post above (Xian, Kimtae, Dale Carnegie, and Jaehwan!).
That being said, I don’t want to be one of those theorists who just throws an idea out and asks you to deal with it yourself. I’d like to actually help people get stuff done.
If you’re interested, shoot me an e-mail at naruguard-44 at yahoo. We all have to work on stuff like this together.
Interesting post! I have not studied anything about the ABC’s method, so I cannot comment on their teachings, but I will offer that if your information about them is accurate, not all PU systems are the same. There are numerous methodologies in the world of Pickup, and the one’s that I have learned of, while yes, ultimately gear themselves toward helping a man attract a woman and will carry their information past the initial meeting and into how to seduce her, are not as manipulative and unscrupulous as you have experienced. Certainly, some of the posters on the blogs of these systems do post “Lay reports” and gain ego through bragging about their success rates, but not all do. Some are defined by pickup, and some do indeed hold a grudge against women, and see Pickup as a way to get only what they want – thus objectifying someone who should be viewed as a partner.
The concept of a “lay report” is not supposed to be to brag about how you managed to manipulate some woman into sleeping with you, rather to illustrate for other readers what the poster did right, and what they did wrong in the interaction. The idea that pickup is a horrible pursuit and should be shunned by all is about as accurate a statement as saying “Guns are extremely dangerous and exist only to kill!” While true, some would use a gun to commit murder and crimes, others would use it as a deterrent, or as a means to protect their homes and loved ones.
So it is with pickup, some come to it as a means to “get laid” but many others come to it because their social radar is – for lack of a better term – Broken.
The information I have studied teaches a man how to present himself to a woman so that he is more in line with what she may want. How to ensure that he can at least convey to her who he is, before she decides to turn away from him. The idea that a man can approach a woman in a bar or nightclub – or library or grocery store for that matter – and simply say “Hi! My name’s Bob. I’m a wonderful guy who has a great sense of humor and a passion for cooking! Can I get your phone number so we can go out some time?” simply does not work. Maybe in writing it sounds ok, but let’s presume for a moment that our pal bob is 40 pounds overweight, or that he has a problem expressing himself. Let’s say that he says the above mumbled under his breath while looking at the floor. Still think it might allow Bob to get a date?
The simple fact is a LOT of guys out there honestly have no idea how to communicate with women. Their body language is poor, they get tongue tied and confused and misspeak, or refuse to even approach a woman they may be interested in because they’re too intimidated. The Pick-up information I have been exposed to instead teaches a man how he can improve himself, to honestly consider what he wants from a woman, to consider what he’s passionate about in his personal life and then how to present that information so that it’s attractive to a woman he may like and to then decide if she fills the definition he has created about the kind of person he thinks he wants to be with, to understand WHY the scripted lines and routines that exist out there work, and to create his own based on who he is and what he’s experienced in his life, in short, how to be a better man, and how to convey that to a woman regardless to his race, body type or financial standing, and regardless of who the woman is.
It seems as though you’ve had a very bad exposure to the world of pickup, or maybe I’ve just had a very good one? I don’t know, but please don’t pass judgement on something that has indeed helped many men become their better selves, and helped many women meet a great guy who they might not have met otherwise.
In closing, I’d offer proof from mystery when discussing pickup and one night stands (I paraphrase):
“A lot of guys get into this because they think they want one night stands, but what if the girl was a 10? what if she was an incredible person? Wouldn’t you want to keep her in your life? make her a girlfriend or more? If all you’re after is one night stands, then I say raise your fu*king standards man.”
Pingback: Rampaging PUAs | big WOWO
This is one of the BEST – if not the best – articles ever written that clarifies and actually points to reasons the PUA community is hurtful toward both the female and the male engaging in its methods… I do have one correction for you to consider though — Asian PUAism? …. No, its much larger than Asians… its all over the place – and very prevalent in America… I mean, some of these guys have workshops and bootcamps here that teach men how to behave in manipulative ways…
I wish someone would write a book and promote it nationally and internationally – on the real issues with PUA – maybe less men would believe its their answer and less women would be hurt by it.
finally comment — judging women solely on their rank (eg hb 7, 8, 9, or 10) and yet expecting to be judged back by personality – even if you are middle aged overweight and have nothing to offer her… is twisted..
If you want acceptance, then accept others… don;t act better than the average girl, when you are the average guy – and most PUA’s are the average guy – or worse — yet they get brainwashed that only a sexy, hot babe who puts up with him flirting and ‘connecting’ with others is the way to go – and if she complains, just neg her or show her you can leave anytime.. oh yeah, that doe snot breed insecurity in a woman.
PUA types are the reasons women do not trust men and their intentions… they may flirt with or hook up with the ‘alpha male’ – but they end up marrying the beta males — the ones that will not hurt them, that respect them and do not manipulate.
That just makes it look like you’re taking advantage of “beta” males. This causes resentment and causes them to seek out being “alpha” male jerks.
Thanks for your kind words, ex-gf! Haha…I laughed out loud when I read about “connecting.” It’s amazing how they’ve misused and abused that word.
I may blog about that manipulation/perception thing later. It came up on the Alpha vs. Beta blog post:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/11/alphas-vs-betas/#comment-12952
It’s an old sales concept, but I think there’s a line between “fake it until you make it” and just plain “fake it.”
“If you want acceptance, then accept others… don;t act better than the average girl, when you are the average guy – and most PUA’s are the average guy – or worse — yet they get brainwashed that only a sexy, hot babe who puts up with him flirting and ‘connecting’ with others is the way to go.”
That really is the heart of the hypocrisy:
Seeking an aware and fair-minded girl who will not judge me based on the false image of me as seen on TV and the movies.
P.S.
Please don’t answer this add if you don’t look like the girls on TV or the movies.
Isn’t this whole PUA thing the ultimate “Beta” strategy? Seriously, it’s like a front for those men who have absolutely nothing to offer. We can see how this strategy does little for long term relationships, or even solve the guy’s personal issues and shortcomings. In fact, PUA merely reinforces negative preconceptions and stereotypes. Real Alphas don’t just talk the talk, they walk the walk. Alphas don’t rely on salesmanship since they already know they have a hot item and have no problem being honest. PUA strategy=Penis Enlargement Pills for the Mind.
I think so too.
It reminds me a lot of the “extra pair copulator” that I described in Alphas vs. Betas. PUA teaches guys to sneak in the back like an EPC.
Has anyone read “The Game?” I think this is the point that Tom Cruise was trying to make to the author. If they spent more time actually working on becoming better people rather than pretending to be better people, they’d be a lot happier.
Pingback: A tree is a tree is a tree, even when it’s not « big WOWO