BKS Iyengar
(Image from Yoga Iyengar de Marseille)
But what has ego done to procreation, to the harmonious union of complementary opposites? It has twisted it into an act of egoic self-affirmation. Lust is self-validation through consumption. Control through the exercise of power.
–BKS Iyengar, Light on Life, p. 87 (ISBN-10 1-59486-524-8)
Here is what I intend to be my final piece on Asian PUA (Pick Up Artistry). I hope I can refer to it whenever anyone asks me a question about PUA and IR from now on. I want to put some measure of finality into this, and with that goal in mind, I wanted to create a milestone from which we can move on. The IR debate, of course, will most likely continue in some form or another, but after this piece and the ensuing conversation, I’m done with PUA. In this piece, I make some statements about PUA, and I hope that no one takes any of the statements personally. I tried to make it as compassionate as I could, and I’m indebted to everyone who has pushed the conversation forward–we needed to have this talk, and I’m honored that you have all been supportive, even those whose actions have surprised me. I mean this in a genuine way. Even though I witnessed some bizarre behavior while on my quest for answers, we would have not come to this point of our understanding without the participation of all of you. I honestly thank you.
IR, interracial relationships between Asian women and white men, has always been a major part of the Asian American socio-political dialogue. It’s been such a contentious issue that the major Asian American site ModelMinority.com only allows people to discuss the issue within one specific virtual room. The Fighting 44s drew much of its initial popularity from discussions on IR, and columnist Jeff Yang, according to Thymos member Larry, calls IR the “third rail” of Asian American politics. As early as the 1970′s, Frank Chin, one of the early pioneers of Asian American activism, focused hard on the absence of Asian male/Asian female pairings in literature (Mr. Chin’s work is probably the best I’ve seen on the issue). So when William Lee, an activist from the former Fallout Central, took a bootcamp from the ABCs of Attraction where he learned to pick up women, he began thinking of turning it into a form of activism. After all, he said, if Asian American men complained about IR and had trouble attracting women because of their race, why not address the issue directly by making it a cornerstone of activism? JT, the leader of the ABCs, had so far missed the mainstream with the idea, so by taking the PUA concept and merging it with William’s talents in activism, they rationalized that they could make big strides in activism by teaching men to be “better with women.” William closed down Fallout Central, started Better Asian Man, and focused his podcasting and workshop talents into promoting Asian Pick Up Artistry through the ABCs of Attraction.
It’s taken me a while to get to the bottom of the topic of PUA–there were so many layers to uncover. You can see my earlier views here and here. After getting to know the community, the method, and seeing and hearing about some of these guys in action, my views have since changed. There are two problems with Asian PUA, practice and theory, and these two problems essentially guarantee failure on a moral level for both the organization and general empowerment. I’ll first talk about practice and theory and why Asian PUA is not a good thing. Afterwards, I will discuss what we can do to help Asian men who have problems communicating with women, as well as the next step in fixing a broken social atmosphere.
Practice
In order to have a useful dialogue, it’s helpful to acknowledge that the stated intentions of Asian PUA and the actual practice are two entirely different entities. One of the reasons it took me so long to find out the real story behind PUA is that although the adherents constantly mention honesty, they bob and weave and misrepresent the truth whenever people ask direct questions–some of them do this intentionally, while others simply don’t know how to answer. When you get to the bottom of the story, it’s apparent that PUAs hide the actual practice because they are embarrassed by it. If you look at this thread here for example, honest questions by female posters are greeted with an answer that says, in effect, “Well, you need to fly out to New York in order for to see for yourself.” It’s a needlessly complicated answer to the easy question of what PUA really is.
So here it is in a nutshell:
1. Respect for women: There’s no respect for women within the Asian PUA world. Zero. Sometimes this disrespect is unintentional, but sometimes it’s absolutely intentional. PUAs objectify women, giving them labels such as HB10 (“Hot Babe 10.”) They encourage men to post “lay reports” about women with whom they sleep. Some of the instructors even post pictures of women on their site, some of whom explicitly ask not to be included. Both students and instructors all do this. Read this post where someone who knows the community and has dated a pickup artist talks about how they encourage men to get around women who say no to sex.
What’s worse is that the PUAs in charge make no effort to fix this, nor have they denied the accusation. I’ve learned from someone that took the course that the culture behind the ABCs is one which denigrates men who don’t sleep with (or claim to sleep with) lots of women. They keep tallies of who sleeps with whom, and they constantly promote bad behavior with their lay reports and field reports. It’s all about who gets the most sex. Getting sex, of course, is not bad, but when it’s a person’s only measure of self-worth, it doesn’t amount to much.
On an activist level, this is troubling. How can you stand for something good when your teachings aim to further disempower women who have historically faced problems with objectification and sexism? How can you claim to help men when you are realigning their value system with nothing but sex? It’s a strange contradiction. The Asian Playboy says, “If you want the woman of your dreams, you need to be the man of her dreams too.” Unless the man of her dreams is a leech who tries to circumvent the legal definition of rape through brute force perseverance, I fail to see how the ABCs curriculum encourages being the man of any woman’s dreams.
2. Honesty and character: To answer this question, look here. There really isn’t much to say beyond this–one of their lead instructors plagiarized in order to attack a woman that he used to know, and this instructor happens to teach the ABCs ethics class. In the end, this instructor did the right thing by removing his theft and correcting himself, but he failed to do the honorable thing, which would be to apologize for his actions. He could have apologized to the woman whose writing he plagiarized. He could have apologized to the members of the 44s who put time and effort into understanding him. He could have apologized to the people who have supported him. He could’ve apologized to people like me and King4aDay, who put our trust in him and whom he betrayed and threw under the bus. But he didn’t apologize, nor did any of the ABCs instructors, all of whom were aware of the incident.
The lead instructor shouldn’t have plagiarized in the first place, but perhaps even more disturbing is the behavior exhibited by his students right after his plagiarism. The post has since been removed from the ABCs of Attraction community forum, but if you had looked right after the plagiarism, you would see that this breach of ethics was accompanied by the most despicable, vile sexism and misogyny directed at the woman from both instructors and students of the ABCs. These people kept saying stuff along the lines of “Who cares what he did? He’s helping us get some, so we support him!” I can maybe understand if William has an ethical lapse, but a whole organization? That would be like the entire Christian church rallying behind Ted Haggard and saying, “He has a right to sleep with gay prostitutes! Who cares, as long as he’s getting us into Heaven!” How hard is it to ask your leader not to plagiarize? Any organization in which ethics takes a back seat to self-interest is problematic.
3. Relationships: Make no mistake, PUA is about sex, not about creating relationships. If you look at the ABCs message boards, PUA’s brag about sex. They write about the women they sleep with, creating what they call “lay reports.” The modus operandi is to sleep with as many women as possible. This is encouraged, by the admission of people in the community.
It’s amazing because to the outside world, the PUA instructors are constantly telling people how long term relationships are best. Read the Asian Playboy’s AsianWeek report, or read BetterAsianMan’s blog, and that’s what they love to tell the outside world. Yet none of the instructors are in long term relationships, and when they date women, they treat them with a flagrant disregard for respect, honesty, and equality. As King4aDay from the Fighting 44s points out, you would think that people who teach men to be good with women would try harder to understand women. But the PUA approach isn’t one that encourages listening. It encourages the “brute force” approach, even going as far as to circumvent the objections of women who say no to sex (and again, I didn’t see this, but when it was brought up, NO ONE contradicted it, and some even tried to defend the approach.).
Most people who look at the curriculum of the ABCs would see lots of beautiful words about trust, honesty, and openness, while the public information on APB’s site about the practice itself is blatantly sexist. The typical PUA excuse is that it’s just marketing, and that the practice is actually quite respectful. But if you look at the practice, it’s clear that the practice is also sexist, despite whatever claims they make to the contrary. Like peacocking PUA’s, they become adept at hiding the truth.
As activists, we value practice above any kind of theory, and in order to see something for what it really is, we judge actions. Clearly, the actions of the ABCs of Attraction, both those of its clients and instructors, are reprehensible. They perpetuate the worst stereotypes and behavior, and they create a mindset that only further disempowers women and damages men by doing exactly the opposite of what they tell the world they’re trying to accomplish. Some of these instructors/PUAs know better, but they do it anyway. It’s vile, and both PUA and the ABCs of Attraction ought to be condemned by anyone with a moral conscience.
Theory
This is the question that comes up more often than any other, and it was actually this question which first stoked my interest in PUA. The question is as follows: Even if the practice is bad, can’t we learn something from what they do?
The answer is that you can always learn something from anyone, but in this case, you can’t learn by example.
There are a number of good things PUAs do. If you look at their curriculum, they supposedly ask people to be honest, direct, and to have open communication. They ask men to get to know themselves and what they have to offer. These aren’t bad actions, and they could be good habits if the practice adjusted to the theory–as I mentioned above, the words usually don’t match the actions. However, these prescriptions for good living aren’t original. If you look at Tony Robbins or any of these other relationship/success teachers, they all say the exact same thing (and in fact, this is where PUAs originally found their inspiration, and therefore it’s also a part of APB’s “lineage“), and more often than not, they teach it in a way that more accurately reflects what they’re teaching. The PUAs also have an extensive support network that teaches men to help one another. This is very good. If Asian American activists had that kind of network, we’d be unstoppable. But of course, the activist effort is harder since a good activist doesn’t dwell on ego.
Now the problem that PUA faces–and this is all PUA, not just the ABCs–is that they are driven by sex and therefore ego. Men join to boost their own confidence, and they define their self-worth by how many women they sleep with. As the wise Mr. Iyengar noted in the quote above, “It has twisted it into an act of egoic self-affirmation.”
I’m not saying that men should go off to an ashram and be celibate for the rest of their lives. It’s clear to me that men will always need women and will always judge themselves by the women they attract, more so than women will judge themselves by men. That was the point behind my second piece on Asian American Maleism–the genders tend to behave differently. There’s a definite asymmetry that exists when comparing the two genders. At the same time, if your entire cause is focused on ego, your entire cause is doomed to failure. It becomes one giant ego fest, a movement which is unable to get out beyond one’s immediate sexual needs.
This was the problem with the Better Asian Man’s ethical breach. He was unable to see past his own ego, and his followers were also unable to see past their own selfish needs. No one pushed for higher principles because principles took a back seat to ego. When the going got tough, it was either every man for himself, or every man for the cult leaders.
Indeed, that’s the problem with men. If you create a culture where men think with their penises before anything else, you can be sure that anything that has to do with principles, cultural advancement, love, real emotions, intelligence, or progress will be doomed to failure. BKS Iyengar realized this, as does anyone else who deals with lots of people. People wind up cheating one another and doing everything for the purpose of affirming their own fragile egos.
This is why PUA as an activist movement fails.
Post-PUA Empowerment for Asian Men
Almost all intelligent Asian Americans see that Asian American men face an upward battle in the American social scene, and this includes people like Tan and Hong Kingston whose actions and words have been mostly, in my opinion, anti-Asian male. There is no question that the American social scene has wreaked havoc on Asian American lives. It’s even become a standing joke among non-Asian people. I agree that we need to do something about it, and I would agree with the PUAs that any action needs to take place on the ground level through some form of actual mentoring, rather than just a website, book, or other form of mass media.
There is no one right way to fix the gender divide. What would work for a Goth male meeting a Goth female would probably not work with a Senior VP executive meeting another Senior VP executive or a Goth meeting a Senior VP, for that matter. Human beings are diverse, and people have different tastes and lifestyles.
This is an institutional problem, and we need institutions to fix it. The ABCs is an institution, of course, but we need honest institutions guided by strong ethical principles and strong people who are willing to enforce these principles. The IR disparity is a serious problem that requires serious effort with people who have the discipline to become better people. On a theoretical level, the goals of these institutions need to go beyond sex for the reasons presented above. They need to go beyond just selfish ego, and they need to focus their energies on the improvement of society rather than just “getting some.”
People have presented a number of very good solutions to this problem, and I’ll list them here.
2. Kimtae’s solution
post #19
I recommend all of these solutions–or combination of these solutions. All emphasize honesty, and all emphasize self-mastery. These solutions will most likely be most powerful, however, as part of an institutionalized effort, and for the institution, I would emphasize something that Xian wrote (and that the Carnegie Method emphasizes as well):
Sincerely care about others and portray that unconditionally. If you are merely selfishly pursuing folks, anyone with a decent head on their shoulders will figure that out, so you will attract idiots or people who have security issues. If you like that, and you can do it without being abusive, more power to you, but that’s not where happiness is for most people. Do good things for others, but don’t see it as some type of pussy flea-market. Expecting intimate attention and sexual possibilities for niceness is creepy!
The point is that it can’t be a selfish endeavor. Picking up women is not nearly as hard as these PUAs make it out to be, and turning it into a science is counterproductive. It’s like Tom Cruise says in The Game: if you spent as much time on trying to improve other aspects in your life, think of how much you could accomplish.
William points out that he was an activist long before becoming a PUA, and he tells us how it didn’t help him with women. While I believe his account, I’d also posit that he failed because he was doing activism with the wrong mindset–he was thinking only of his own ego and wasn’t trying to help others. Activism and community engagement is hard when you don’t have the right intentions.
If the intentions are right, however, community engagement is the best thing. You can contribute to an Asian American activist group, and it will help the IR disparity because it will empower the men and women around you. You can contribute to a motorcycle club, and it will help the IR disparity because it will empower the men and women around you. You can run a book club, and it will help the IR disparity because it will empower the men and women around you. Anything you do will help the IR disparity, as long as:
1. You are creating community
2. You’re working as part of an institution
3. You’re coming into it with the right mindset
4. You learn to express yourself
5. You’re concentrating on improving the lives of the people around you
6. You provide room where Asian men AND women can speak honestly about what they feel and have experienced
This is the answer. It’s simple because it’s straightforward. No negging, AMOG-ing, or any of the other games that PUAs play. It’s complex because it’s institutional, and it takes skills and dedications to build or recreate institutions.
In any case, I’m not content just to provide the theoretical solutions. I’d like to help create the solution. So we will have a podcast coming up very soon, and I hope to provide dialogue that will jumpstart community projects that can help us with this IR problem. The IR problem comes in large part from colonized thinking. I don’t know if institutions are strong enough to totally destroy that colonized mindset, but I’m positive that we can improve the situation together, and I hope that you will all join me in putting our efforts into doing the right thing. Thanks for reading. Feel free to throw ideas out on this blog post, or e-mail me to let me know if you’re interested in participating in the podcast.
Acknowledgements: I need to thank the Fighting 44s, who first introduced me to the concept of PUA and gave us a place to discuss it. Thanks especially to Dialectic, Lopan, Ellen, Box, Xian, Kwak, Kimtae, THX, minbo, King4aDay, and urB4N, who helped pushed the dialogue in a constructive manner. Thanks to the Asian Playboy, who took the “Mystery Method” and marketed it as an Asian movement. I still respect you for pushing the dialogue, even though I don’t approve of what you do. Thanks again to John Kwak, who showed me that there are always people in need and that there are always good people in every organization. Thanks, Jin, for revealing the truth about PUA. We all would never have learned the truth without you, and though you yourself endured tough attacks from both pro- and anti-PUA proponents, you exhibited bravery and perseverance. Thank you. Thanks to the BetterAsianMan William Lee, who has pushed the dialogue on this issue, and who has taught me, both directly and indirectly, intentionally and unintentionally, what PUA is all about. You’ve got lots of talent. Lastly, thanks again to kimtae and xian, who provided alternatives early in the conversation and who were unfairly ignored by people who were pushing an agenda. Your contributions were never forgotten. Now we can finally move forward.
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I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
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I wouldn’t say...
My. Head. Just. Exploded. Am I so behind the times that this much online effort seems so anticonducive to actual “hooking up”? (and the fact that I had to put quotation marks around those words should age me…)
I do remember when Better Asian Man came to Kimchi Mamas site and solicited readers – it seemed so farcical that Asian men needed hook-up and playah instruction manual that it appeared racist even.
Am I just too old for this dialogue or am I merely out of touch for living in the midwest?
Okay, I’ll take your word for it that this will definitely be the last post about the Asian PUA scene. It looks like you’ve spent quite a deal of time on this topic and have read this from all angles — from what I can tell. One thing that still strikes me just by reading this piece is that Asian American male masculinity is pretty much at the heart of the issue. If Maxine Hong Kingston keeps selling “Women Warrior” and “China Men” books at the rate she’s been for the past 25 years or so, this reconfirms the fact this uphill climb for AA men will be a long and arduous one. Not to mention we have people like William Lee of BAM pimpin’ the APB’s agenda. If you ask me, these guys do a major disservice to Asian men as a whole. He might be a good guy and have good intentions, it doesn’t mean he’s not misleading the people that are taking his “bootcamps”. And I don’t even know why it’s called a “bootcamp” in the first place. Like I’ve said before, if they wanna learn to pickup women, then they should be joining a general PUA group and not one designed to help “asexualized” Asian men. Just to be clear, that doesn’t mean that I condone misogyny or chauvinism. From where I stand, I don’t even think that there should be a PUA entity in the first place.
I read Xian’s post and it was very endearing to me. Firstly, we need to put a stop to this covert mainstream racism against Asian men. I know that there are jokes being told when we aren’t there, even between other men and women of color. Sure, we might not have the respect we deserve, but we have to earn it. We need to play the game the right way and prove that we are competitive. Be it professional sports, politics, porn, acting, weightlifting, racing, boxing — it needs to be out there so people can see. When I see people like Manny Pacquiao drop other folks like it’s hot, I get a rush. When I see Shinseki tell congress what he really thinks, I say to myself, “he’s my fucking hero.” He’s my ambassador and people respect him. We need great Asian male ambassadors that can play the game so well, they change attitudes. They’re the ones that shape the landscape for us so we can thrive. That’s what we need. We need to find our voices and get them read without any red tape because some asshole thinks it’s not what his readers want. They want a fairytale about what country we’re from and the exotic foods we eat and the accents we command so it gets them all giddy inside. I say “fuck that”.
And from what I can tell, we get suppressed. Asian men need to have an awareness that their actions — ridicule and self-mockery — come at a cost to all of us. It only applies to Asian men because we’ve been in a state of nonacceptance. When you look at reality TV, you’ll see exactly where I’m coming from. Those negative stereotypes keep replaying like a broken record. And the more these Asian men want to be famous, the more they’re willing to do anything for their fifteen minutes of fame. And as the story goes, “another one bites the dust.” I’m at the state where I don’t even blame it all on Whites anymore, because it really does takes two to tango. And these Asian male clowns need to be held responsible for their actions. You might think I’m from Uranus and you’re from Mars, but that’s exactly how I feel about this whole ordeal.
We can’t keeping buying into the mainstream’s stereotypes about ourselves. We didn’t write those, someone else with a motive and intent did. They show AF/WM ads all day long to keep reinforcing them. It’s to a point now where we’ve come to accept it as a social norm. Hence, it gets played out in the real world. Then come the lonely Asian men who pretty much are left with nothing but bitterness. They feel unattractive and they get insecure about their looks and physical appearances. Then the self-hate kicks in and the self-esteem drops below zero. I’ve been there, I’ve fought it, and I won. And I commend Xian for his openness because it’s good to know that there are strong Asian men carrying out the fight. You gotta learn to love yourself in your own skin. And it’s hard out there for an Asian American male if you’re not given the time of day.
The problem is, there are so many variables that separate each Asian culture and subculture. We’re not on the same page. Not to mention, we have Asian people who thrive off the fact that they’ve been accepted as ‘Honorary Whites’. They, in turn, reap the benefits of White Privilege. We have Asian women who’ve never dated Asian men and emasculate them before the public without even realizing the repercussions. Asian females also have their own stereotypes behind them, but it honestly doesn’t even come close to the brunt that we have to bear everyday. Say what you will, but that’s the truth that’s evidenced in the mainstream media every single day. And until that day comes when we realize that this image war needs to be fought by an aggressive awareness campaign, I’ll keep standing my post.
To me, no strategies or methods can ever replace the absence of self-love. And when you can’t stand bearing yourself in your own skin (e.g. Michelle Malkin), you just become fodder in a predominantly White society that emphasizes white beauty — ‘purity’ — and demeans your existence.
Hope I didn’t deviate too much. Thanks for the great narrative, research, and references. -TMM
Forgive me if I sound naive (thought about this post quite a bit this morning, a bit more awake and after reading the comment after my first somewhat flippant one) but intellectual resistance and not-so-intellectual resistance (i.e. lessons on how to be smooth while picking up chicks, especially white/blonde/oh-media-supported-sex-symbols of female variety) seem to further the perpetuation of self-hatred and emasculation of Asian men.
For as many Asian women who say they never date Asian men, I know just as many Asian men who claim that they would never date Asian men. David Mura, a Japanese-American writer, devoted a lot of writing on his aversion to sex, despite his love for sex, with Asian women, that it’d be like fucking his own sister. And yes, I sat through a reading of those excerpts, as the only Asian woman in the room. Talk about being desexualized completely in one sitting of literary reading.
We’re not really talking about a whole image of Asian men, are we? We are talking about the sexual empowerment and physical image of Asiam men, i.e improving oneself by working out, weight lifting, “being less geeky” or whatever the traits that have been embraced as a “stereotype” of Asian men.
I do agree that absence of self-love plays a huge part. Isn’t it true of all humans? This feels so much like self-prophecy being fulfilled. I had initially thought that websites that instructed (specifically) Asian men to be better pick-up artist, or be more attractive to (white) women were satirical. If they are the real thing, in my one Asian woman’s humble opinions, they are geared toward the exact kind of Asian men I do not want to date.
The sexy Asian man embraces his intellect, his quirky humor, his more-evolved smooth hairless chest, and that he is not like a typical stereotypical stud you see in typical Hollywood media but, for that reason, a rare find.
A man who is a product of these PUA sites or any other site that wants to shape Asian men into god-knows-whose-idea-of-smooth-operators would seem to me quite pathetic.
(sorry – am coming very late into the discussion, I’m afraid, since this is your LAST post and my first exposure to this topic.)
(oops – it should read: “For as many Asian women who say they never date Asian men, I know just as many Asian men who claim that they would never date Asian women.”)
Asian Male PUAism is a method and way of life to raise self-esteem by abusing females for their own self-gratification. That is the primary purpose and it is not explained in those terms because on the SURFACE, the overarching principle is respect and honesty (but the actions itself are contradictory to the surface principles).
Because I’ve seen/witnessed the practices multiple times and understand the methods, and although it appears to have good intentions for males, the whole problem with PUAism is the protecting the ego and being selfish with complete disregard for others. That is not the way any decent human being should live. What happened to compassion? Sympathy? Respect? It’s completely obliterated in PUAism.
Picking up women is not an art form. It should not be a way of life.
By resorting to pua methods (sarging, amogging, negging, posting lay reports, kino-escalating, DHV aka bragging, etc), asian male puas are giving the entire asian male race a bad reputation. Such methods disrespect women of ALL races.
The abc/bam method further denigrates asian men because it is truly an utterly selfish “me me me” mentality that has no focus on the respect of others. They use women and sex to gain confidence. All the field reports, lay reports about their sexcapades, and the accompanying photos are used to all show off. The purpose is for self-satisfaction/pride, showing off and putting down women as merely sex objects to be toyed with for personal gain.
I feel bad for the genuinely good asian guys out there. Asian male puas are tainting the emotional ingenuity behind humans.
The guys that women are interested in are modest, don’t resort to showing off or contrived methodologies and have genuine compassion – these are the types that women want to be with in the long run, not PUAs.
Good point you make about David Mura, Mama Nabi. It just so happens that he’s not the author of the most popular book, “Women Warrior”, ever taught at the college level. One more thing, the absence of self-love is evidenced by the “gender divide” between Asian men and women.
W and Mama Nabi,
I don’t wanna make it seem like I’m singling out AF’s at all. I think every party — White Society, AM, and AF — all should be held to account for this. But I notice that when AM’s write about AF’s being part of the problem, it starts to go downhill from there. But not including them would be ignoring the impact they do to the landscape. There’s sensitivity issues there, I understand, but the points need to be laid out.
MM:
I focused primarily on AMs (not by trying to target them at all) but because abc/bam focuses on asian male issues specifically – that’s their ‘target’ audience. And I don’t think no ‘one group’ really is to blame (but I think a flawed “system” and flawed methodologies can be blamed to a degree, which spirals into perpetuation of sexism).
Truthfully, I’d prefer not to discuss race or gender divides, but there are clearly issues there. And it’s important to bring those issues to light and that opinions/experiences get voiced so all parties can be openminded about understanding the opposite sex, which in turn may help ppl understand/improve themselves more.
2 issues with all the comments.
1.) You’re all thinking about how things should work, not how things work in reality. Now, it’s not bad to be an optimist but when your solution is completely off base in regards to the actual problem, you’ll never get the proper resolution.
2.) The sense of lost masculinity stems from both media and AF actively participating by marrying and dating white men. Therefore, Asian men lash out and try to get it back by dating white women or find that they can get it back by dating out in large volumes. Thus, Asian women are directly contributing to this issue in the first place.
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uRB4N, well said. Let me say that I am a strong proponent of mutual respect between men and women and health long-term relationships, however as things are now AM’s are not allowed to be individuals, and most importantly they are not allowed to be men. The main issue is that the stereotypes about Asian-American women generally elevate them to a status that is near or on the level of white men and women whereas the stereotypes about Asian-American men push them down to near the bottom of the barrel so right off the bat there is a disparity. An AM immediately has a number of prejudices held against him even before he says a single word, and often said AM is not given a fair shot and tearing down those stereotypes, which IMHO is where PUA may be of assistance to some. I am far from an expert on PUA but from what little I know it’s not a perfect system and yes there is a lot of objectification, but unfortunately progress will not be made until the weaker side can have two feet to stand on.
It’s comparing apples to oranges but let’s take the state of Black America after the Civil War. Yes, blacks were technically “free” but we all know that progress was not made until blacks started fighting back and started standing up for themselves. Civil rights were not won by being respectful and nice. Programs like affirmative action are not fair, but it’s apparent that when you simply work hard and be respectful, there’s another giant wall called politics and prejudice that must be overcome and you cannot always combat politics by being politcally correct.
There are guilty members on both sides, I am not absolving anyone of fault. There is more that AM’s can be doing to better themselves and finding more appropriate solutions to the issues at hand. However it’s a Catch 22–just like more desirable jobs where you need experience to get the job, but you also need the job to get experience in the first place. Likewise, men are expected to have experience in a variety of areas, but when those opportunities are limited or non-existant, more extreme measures should be looked at. Like it’s been mentioned before, no one else has tried to come up with another solution.
Hey Hurricane,
Thanks for visiting! Kwak tells me that he met up with you and that you’re a good guy. Glad to hear it!
I’m done posting on PUA; as I mentioned, it was my last post. The only thing I might say is that you wrote: “Like it’s been mentioned before, no one else has tried to come up with another solution, but there are three solutions in that nearly 3,000 word post above (Xian, Kimtae, Dale Carnegie, and Jaehwan!).
That being said, I don’t want to be one of those theorists who just throws an idea out and asks you to deal with it yourself. I’d like to actually help people get stuff done.
If you’re interested, shoot me an e-mail at naruguard-44 at yahoo. We all have to work on stuff like this together.
Interesting post! I have not studied anything about the ABC’s method, so I cannot comment on their teachings, but I will offer that if your information about them is accurate, not all PU systems are the same. There are numerous methodologies in the world of Pickup, and the one’s that I have learned of, while yes, ultimately gear themselves toward helping a man attract a woman and will carry their information past the initial meeting and into how to seduce her, are not as manipulative and unscrupulous as you have experienced. Certainly, some of the posters on the blogs of these systems do post “Lay reports” and gain ego through bragging about their success rates, but not all do. Some are defined by pickup, and some do indeed hold a grudge against women, and see Pickup as a way to get only what they want – thus objectifying someone who should be viewed as a partner.
The concept of a “lay report” is not supposed to be to brag about how you managed to manipulate some woman into sleeping with you, rather to illustrate for other readers what the poster did right, and what they did wrong in the interaction. The idea that pickup is a horrible pursuit and should be shunned by all is about as accurate a statement as saying “Guns are extremely dangerous and exist only to kill!” While true, some would use a gun to commit murder and crimes, others would use it as a deterrent, or as a means to protect their homes and loved ones.
So it is with pickup, some come to it as a means to “get laid” but many others come to it because their social radar is – for lack of a better term – Broken.
The information I have studied teaches a man how to present himself to a woman so that he is more in line with what she may want. How to ensure that he can at least convey to her who he is, before she decides to turn away from him. The idea that a man can approach a woman in a bar or nightclub – or library or grocery store for that matter – and simply say “Hi! My name’s Bob. I’m a wonderful guy who has a great sense of humor and a passion for cooking! Can I get your phone number so we can go out some time?” simply does not work. Maybe in writing it sounds ok, but let’s presume for a moment that our pal bob is 40 pounds overweight, or that he has a problem expressing himself. Let’s say that he says the above mumbled under his breath while looking at the floor. Still think it might allow Bob to get a date?
The simple fact is a LOT of guys out there honestly have no idea how to communicate with women. Their body language is poor, they get tongue tied and confused and misspeak, or refuse to even approach a woman they may be interested in because they’re too intimidated. The Pick-up information I have been exposed to instead teaches a man how he can improve himself, to honestly consider what he wants from a woman, to consider what he’s passionate about in his personal life and then how to present that information so that it’s attractive to a woman he may like and to then decide if she fills the definition he has created about the kind of person he thinks he wants to be with, to understand WHY the scripted lines and routines that exist out there work, and to create his own based on who he is and what he’s experienced in his life, in short, how to be a better man, and how to convey that to a woman regardless to his race, body type or financial standing, and regardless of who the woman is.
It seems as though you’ve had a very bad exposure to the world of pickup, or maybe I’ve just had a very good one? I don’t know, but please don’t pass judgement on something that has indeed helped many men become their better selves, and helped many women meet a great guy who they might not have met otherwise.
In closing, I’d offer proof from mystery when discussing pickup and one night stands (I paraphrase):
“A lot of guys get into this because they think they want one night stands, but what if the girl was a 10? what if she was an incredible person? Wouldn’t you want to keep her in your life? make her a girlfriend or more? If all you’re after is one night stands, then I say raise your fu*king standards man.”
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This is one of the BEST – if not the best – articles ever written that clarifies and actually points to reasons the PUA community is hurtful toward both the female and the male engaging in its methods… I do have one correction for you to consider though — Asian PUAism? …. No, its much larger than Asians… its all over the place – and very prevalent in America… I mean, some of these guys have workshops and bootcamps here that teach men how to behave in manipulative ways…
I wish someone would write a book and promote it nationally and internationally – on the real issues with PUA – maybe less men would believe its their answer and less women would be hurt by it.
finally comment — judging women solely on their rank (eg hb 7, 8, 9, or 10) and yet expecting to be judged back by personality – even if you are middle aged overweight and have nothing to offer her… is twisted..
If you want acceptance, then accept others… don;t act better than the average girl, when you are the average guy – and most PUA’s are the average guy – or worse — yet they get brainwashed that only a sexy, hot babe who puts up with him flirting and ‘connecting’ with others is the way to go – and if she complains, just neg her or show her you can leave anytime.. oh yeah, that doe snot breed insecurity in a woman.
PUA types are the reasons women do not trust men and their intentions… they may flirt with or hook up with the ‘alpha male’ – but they end up marrying the beta males — the ones that will not hurt them, that respect them and do not manipulate.
That just makes it look like you’re taking advantage of “beta” males. This causes resentment and causes them to seek out being “alpha” male jerks.
Thanks for your kind words, ex-gf! Haha…I laughed out loud when I read about “connecting.” It’s amazing how they’ve misused and abused that word.
I may blog about that manipulation/perception thing later. It came up on the Alpha vs. Beta blog post:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2009/11/alphas-vs-betas/#comment-12952
It’s an old sales concept, but I think there’s a line between “fake it until you make it” and just plain “fake it.”
“If you want acceptance, then accept others… don;t act better than the average girl, when you are the average guy – and most PUA’s are the average guy – or worse — yet they get brainwashed that only a sexy, hot babe who puts up with him flirting and ‘connecting’ with others is the way to go.”
That really is the heart of the hypocrisy:
Seeking an aware and fair-minded girl who will not judge me based on the false image of me as seen on TV and the movies.
P.S.
Please don’t answer this add if you don’t look like the girls on TV or the movies.
Isn’t this whole PUA thing the ultimate “Beta” strategy? Seriously, it’s like a front for those men who have absolutely nothing to offer. We can see how this strategy does little for long term relationships, or even solve the guy’s personal issues and shortcomings. In fact, PUA merely reinforces negative preconceptions and stereotypes. Real Alphas don’t just talk the talk, they walk the walk. Alphas don’t rely on salesmanship since they already know they have a hot item and have no problem being honest. PUA strategy=Penis Enlargement Pills for the Mind.
I think so too.
It reminds me a lot of the “extra pair copulator” that I described in Alphas vs. Betas. PUA teaches guys to sneak in the back like an EPC.
Has anyone read “The Game?” I think this is the point that Tom Cruise was trying to make to the author. If they spent more time actually working on becoming better people rather than pretending to be better people, they’d be a lot happier.
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Hi
This is my personal affirmation list. It’s mostly to help me be successful with women but also has a lot to do with having self-esteem, confidence and a healthy psychological state of being. Feel free to use it and share it with others. It took me a long time to build this list and I have found it extremely helpful.
Peace
Beliefs of Naturals – My Reality
Read 3 times before bed and in the morning(do it for a for month)
Record in the second person. Play recording on a loop continuously at a low volume(whisper).
Play recording during the day and at night while sleeping.
1. Being with me is the best possible choice for any woman.
2. Women love men and especially love me.
3. I love life!
4. I am God. I am Perfect. This is my universe!
5. I am fearless, courageous and bold!!!
6. I read incredibly fast!
7. Women love sex and want sex from me.
8. My intelligence, creativity and potential is infinite!
9. Women love to be hit on even if they pretend otherwise.
10. I am completely focused, organised and use my time with the utmost efficiency.
11. Women are nurtures and pleaser’s who want to nurture and please me.
12. I am a self-assured, confident, sexual and dominant male.
13. Everyday in every way I am better and better!!!
14. I have complete control over my life, mind and psychological state of being.
15. I am the greatest genius this world has ever seen.
16. I heal instantly!
17. I am successful, confident and achieve my goals. I exude confidence, sex, power and self-esteem.
18. I can be, do and have anything I want to in this world, my possibilities are endless!!!
19. I love myself! I am complete, fulfilled and completely happy!!!
20. I am growing more beautiful and luminous day by day.
21. People love me! I make friends easily.
23. I read and meditate every day. I access all the knowledge in the universe.
25. I am completely irresistible to women!
26. Regardless of how she is reacting to me she is getting aroused.
27. I see the underlying truth in all things.
28. I am an adventurer! I travel the world!
29. Regardless of how she is reacting to me I am the prize she is trying to win over!
30. I am a multi-millionaire and master seducer!
31. I love what I do and am richly rewarded, creatively and financially.
32. I have a perfect photographic memory! I recall everything easily.
33. Since she wants to sleep with me, the power is in my court to decide whether she lives up to my standards and expectations. I get to decide if we get to sleep together.
34. I create my own reality!
35. Today I love my body fully, deeply and joyfully.
37. Today I open my mind to the endless opportunities surrounding me.
38. Prosperity surrounds me, prosperity fills me, prosperity flows to me and through me.
39. I have sex with super hot, confident, loving, caring and intelligent women with genius IQ’s all the time!
40. I think positively every day, all the time.
41. I attract amazing people.
42. My imagination and power affirmations are now creating the reality I desire.
43. My body is now trained to burn fat and build muscle day by day.
44. I have a six pack of abdominal muscles.
45. Let these commands be fulfilled!!!
46. I am filled with the light of love, peace, happiness, power, success and joy every day, all the time.
47. I am aggressive, direct and powerful with the women I desire. I radiate a confidence, self-control and charm that women find irresistibly attractive.
48. My mind is focused on what I desire and I go for it congruently and powerfully.
49. I take immediate advantage of my opportunities with women. I swiftly establish incredible rapport, gather the information I need, then close with aggression, power and finesse.
50. I radiate a natural, easy self-acceptance that women find irresistibly attractive.
51. I am mastering the responses, attitudes, behaviours, insights and timing that bring me irresistible power with the women I desire.
52. I am now approaching women that I am attracted to.
53. I am able to pick up and attract any women I desire.
54. I am a strong, powerful, aggressive, dominant, alpha male, leader and conqueror!!!
55. I am charming, interesting and fascinating!!!
56. I have a perfectly sculptured muscle ripped body.
57. I am super hot and sexy, all women want me!
58. Abundance is my natural state of being!
59. Money comes to me easily and continuously from multiple sources!
61. My IQ and intelligence increases daily rapidly!!!
62. I have clear beautiful skin!
63. I have lucid dreams and recall all my dreams with complete clarity!
65. All things are now working together for good in my life.
66. I am now attuned to my higher purpose in life.
67. I rule the world! I am brilliant and perfect in every possible way!
68. I succeed in everything I do!
69. I have sex with one thousand super hot women!
70. I am now enjoying everything I do and feel happy just being alive.
71. Sex with super hot women comes to me easily and effortlessly.
72. The light within me creates miracles in my life here and now.
73. All things are now working together for good in my life.
74. I am now attuned to my higher purpose in life.
75. I have the infinite creative power of God within me.
76. My higher self is guiding me in everything that I do.
77. God lives within me and manifests in the world through me.
78. The light of God surrounds me, the love of God enfolds me, the power of God flows through me. Wherever I am, God is, and all is well!
79. I ascend spiritually rapidly everyday all the time!
80. I am a Natural, Ladies Man and Player!
81. Everywhere I go women want to fuck me!
82. I have sex with supermodels daily.
83. Supermodels have an incredible desire to fuck me wherever I go!
84. I attract whatever I desire.
85. I am the most desirable man in the world. I am God’s gift to women.
86. I attract beautiful women on a deeply subconscious level.
87. Beautiful women are extremely persistent with me for sex.
88. What I believe is reality.
@ Will
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DIETlxquzY&feature=related
@King
Haha.. That’s exactly my list but taken to EXTREMES! I literally listen to an MP3 recording of this list playing in the background at low volume all the time..
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[blockquote]
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empowerment
[b]empower[/b]
em•pow•er verb \im-ˈpau̇(-ə)r\
Definition of EMPOWER
transitive verb
1: to give official authority or legal power to
[b]2: enable 1a[/b]
[b]3: to promote the self-actualization or influence of [/b]
— em•pow•er•ment \-mənt\ noun
[/blockquote]
We can throw definition #1 right out in this context, and keep #2 and #3.
The definition of “enable” is also relevant:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enable
[blockquote]
[b]enable[/b]
en•able verb \i-ˈnā-bəl\
en•ableden•abling\-b(ə-)liŋ\
Definition of ENABLE
transitive verb
1 [b]a : to provide with the means or opportunity [/b]
[b]b : to make possible, practical, or easy [/b]
c : to cause to operate
2: to give legal power, capacity, or sanction to
[/blockquote]
[blockquote]
self–ac•tu•al•ize verb
\-ˈak-ch(ə-w)ə-ˌlīz, -sh(ə-w)ə-ˌlīz\
Definition of SELF-ACTUALIZE
intransitive verb
: [b]to realize fully one’s potential [/b]
[/blockquote]
[blockquote]
ac•tiv•ism noun \ˈak-ti-ˌvi-zəm\
Definition of ACTIVISM
: a doctrine or practice that emphasizes direct vigorous action especially in support of or opposition to one side of a controversial issue
[/blockquote]
PUA may not be activism, but it is empowerment, self-help, and self-actualization, in the context of a guy’s sex life, and in many cases, his love life.
What a Yoga guru says about human nature, and how it should be expressed, is as relevant as what some Catholic or evangelic pastor says. Neither has any special authority over anyone else to be making blanket pronouncements. Many of them can’t even live up to their own standards, and neither can most normal men and women, because that is not their nature.
Also, expecting men to leave the PUA scene in droves due to someone’s bad behavior is like:
-expecting scientists to leave science because a top scientist was practicing eugenics
-expecting Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists to leave their religions because some of their leaders are fucked up
-expecting feminists to leave their movement because some of their leaders have messed up ideas.
I don’t think there’s ever going to be a reconciliation of PUA and the high moral ground that you’re setting, because there’s no room up there for something that’s reality based. No one has bothered to honestly ask to the reasons why so many guys are driven into the PUA scene. When they ask, they’re not ready to *listen*, and this is basically how it is almost everywhere. The fact is that when it comes to dating and sex, plenty of people are ready to put men’s general behavior under a microscope, make generalizations, and judge. Yet, watch a man try to do the same in regards to women’s behavior, and see how he’s admonished not to generalize and is generally shut down. (The one exception to that here has been the IR disparity, but if that leads into other things…yeah).
This site has been about the only place where I’ve seen PUA discussed in a way that guys perspectives on the subject are not shut down: http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/about/seduction-communitypickup-artists/
Good iron is not used to make nails.
And quality man never becomes PUA.
The dictionary definition appears to be anyhthing but settled.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empathy
Actually, the part about programming is more about changing beliefs that limit people.
Which classes are you refererring to? Legit NLP classes, speed seduction classes or PUA classes?
I listened to a friend’s copy of Ross Jeffries’ basic course, and the changing of beliefs is applied to the actual students who come in with various fears regarding women (specially approaching).
The part that people pay most attention to, because it’s the laziest way, is to look for “patterns”. These are basically blocks of “routines” that supposedly make women go through various emotions. A lot of them sound like they’ve been ripped off a romance novel.
In a clinical setting, where the ethical standard is higher, like that of psychologists, the goal is to effect change that the client wants.
In other settings, yes, it’s to convince another person that they want what you want. A souped up version of influence. In order to do that, though, you have to get into their head to know what they really need emotionally and sell it to them.
It’s not really relevant to NLP, except in the context of “modeling excellence” in a field –i.e. you want to learn the beliefs, thought processes (programs) and behaviours of excellent writers, musicians, etc. NLP, otherwise, is mostly used for facilitating change in therapeutic contexts, or less magnanimously, for influencing people.
I don’t know about “programming” someone, but certainly know about rapport and allowing that someone to open up, and reveal themselves. Then you can sell them their own dreams for a price. It’s standard sales, you’re right– perhaps a bit souped up.
By the way, you know what old school PUA was an empath? MrSex4uNYC. Except he didn’t stay submerged inside others’ feelings; he came back up for air and did his thing.
Continued from here:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/02/asian-american-masculinity/#comment-9590
Oi! Good find!
Okay, I think someone needs to write to the Random House dictionary and tell them that they’re wrong. 4 out of 5 of the dictionaries we listed don’t have that intellectual part in it. And it really shouldn’t be there. If you look at the root of the word “empathy,” it comes from the Greek for “affection.” In most common usage, I don’t think it has deviated much from this. Just the definition itself makes no sense–how do you intellectually identify with a feeling? You can’t intellectually identify with an emotion, the same way you can’t emotionally identify with an intellectual argument.
In any case, I guess I’m more of a Merriam-Webster type!
NLP is taught at some sales seminars. I don’t know what they teach at the PUA seminars with respect to NLP, but if it was anything like the NLP/Ross Jeffries stuff that Strauss defined in The Game, it’s similar. I will admit that I never took any such classes, and but it does look like it’s been mostly ignored by industries except for sales, self-help, management training, and other areas where you’re supposed to get something out of someone:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuro-linguistic_programming
My point is that if you’re trying to learn empathy, reading a book like Oscar Wao is probably better than studying NLP.
By the way, regarding the story in the original post above–when confronted with wrongdoing, the PUAs started mirroring.
“I can see why you’re upset.”
“I can see where you’re coming from.”
I think I responded with something like, “Then why the Hell did you harass her in the first place?”
If we were to categorize this in terms of yin and yang, I do think this is a yin way to deflect an issue, but it’s a yang way of dealing emotionally with the issue. Similarly, using NLP to get women is a yin technique, but it’s a yang emotional state.
(On NLP and empathy)
J, I did think that ‘empathy’ as in “stepping into another’s shoes” was being taught as part of the techniques of mirroring and matching. I was wrong about that. Those techniques are actually external manifestations of empathy. They help a person to be perceived as more empathetic.
http://www.nlpco.com/library/research-abstracts/predicates/nlp-empathy-representational-system-match/
That still requires recognition of another person’s emotional state at least at a cognitive level.
Anyway, I was also pretty sure that NLP does touch upon the phenomenon of ‘empathy’ as you understand it. The term I was actually looking for was “perceptual positions” not “mirroring” and “matching”.
http://www.insbeco.com/coach/nlp_perceptual_positions.html
http://karvediat.blogspot.com/2010/07/neuro-linguistic-programming-nlp-for_14.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=empathy+perceptual+positioning+nlp&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=
There is also an exercise related to this concept of ‘perceptual positioning’, which is called the meta-mirror:
http://books.google.com/books?id=0EVY_ViImZEC&pg=PA120&lpg=PA120&dq=%22perceptual+positions%22+mirror&source=bl&ots=KIyeiL4als&sig=CqvPBGi1Jj2kD3zACnINIUsajz0&hl=en&ei=hBNtTbzPBY-4twf0-cXdBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22perceptual%20positions%22%20mirror&f=false
http://www.certainchange.co.uk/nlp-perceptual-positions.php
So, I may be sloppy in my recollection, but not a 100% loco!
By the way, the article below asserts that empathy cannot be taught. If that’s true, we’ve been debating a moot point.
http://physther.org/content/70/11/707.full.pdf
This is going to be a long ass entry. So get ready guys, I’ll try to make it as non boring as possible. I’ll go over a few blog posts and comments and be brief as possible. Ask me if you got questions. (warning: forgive me if I’m too blunt, I am just too lazy to beat around the bush and prefer to state my opinion and question things directly)
First off, to restate to any new readers, so u can get an idea of my perspective. I just turned 27 and recently graduated college in southern California. I now live in the San Francisco bay area. I have never paid for PUA services or coaching. However I have read and watched some PUA videos over the internet for free.
http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/12/the-post-pua-era-of-the-asian-american-blogosphere/#comment-9608
Bigwowo mentions a possible solution from Xian for asian male “loneliness” http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2007/09/09/lonely-thoughts-from-a-non-playa/
I think that Xian, based on his life story is a boring social reject. Xian: “I spent a lot of time wondering if I would ever get laid. I didn’t really have much of an idea of what to do with it.” & “Three long-distance years later, I proposed on the lakeshore in Chicago, we married a year-and-a-half later. These days I smile profusely while injecting stories about my wonderful wife into conversation at every opportunity.”
Xian may or may not be anymore. But most of his life was spent as a loser. A girl in a supermarket hits on him and he ends up in a relationship on and off over a period of 3 years and eventually proposes. Now supposedly lives happily ever after. This is NOT A SOLUTION for the majority of AMs. Xian ends up with a girl while never truly developing his “game”. He marries her and “escapes” AM dating problems. Now hes giving advice? WTF, and u bigwowo, u agree with this?
http://www.bigwowo.com/2011/02/asian-american-masculinity/
Bigwowo, I’ve commented before on how I think a lot of Kingston, Tan, history this and that is just useless mental masturbation. I mean it’s nice to know, but at the end of the day knowing this colonial history, asian American literature biases, ain’t going to do shit to improve AM dating problems.
AM as a group have a problem in the American social scene. We have a big IR disparity. We got there via media stereotyping, colonialism, etc…. Can we change media stereotyping or colonialism? I’d argue it’s completely out of our control. Sure u can protest outside Hollywood, it ain’t going to have any measurable effect IMO. We can not change the past. We just need to learn from it and deal with what we got RIGHT NOW. Right now we have IR disparity.
I’d argue that the best way to deal with it, is to increase the sexual worthiness of AM as a whole. Stereotypes of AM are obviously bad, but I really believe a lot of AM regardless of the reason, are below average in terms of “game” regarding the ability to attract women of any race.
I’m basically saying, Bigwowo, if you really wanna help the AM demographic. Write a guide on how to become more attractive to women and be specific. I mean be very very specific including stuff to say, behavior, what to do, what not to do.
An analogy would be like a regular person learning to drive a car. They don’t need to learn thermodynamics and physics to know how to drive. They want to learn how to drive so they can travel places. Teach AM how to drive. Don’t write colonial history and bring up archaic examples of masculinity and femininity. (obviously this is ur blog, but this is my honest opinion, I told u I’m blunt
Bigwowo “First, you say that AM are to blame for their own situation. Then you talk about Asian upbringings (which is true). And then you talk about how many Asian women view Asian male doctors and lawyers as equal to any White Joe Smith (which is also true–verified by that Tierney blog). So how are Asian men to blame for this? Do you see the contradiction? It’s blaming the victim, saying it’s the victim’s fault when the evidence you list is outside of the control of the young Asian male.”
If I got beat up by a bully once, it ain’t my fault. Maybe even a 2nd time it still ain’t my fault. If by the 3rd time I passively let it happen I’m just a little pussy ass bitch.
AM SHOULD BE BLAMING THEMSELVES. It’s because a lot of AMs don’t do anything to help out their own situation except to bitch. They don’t spend time trying to improve their own game. (this doesn’t apply to all AMs though) I know soo many AMs who just accept the situation as it is. I’ll give an example.
I used to live with 4 AM roommates. All except for 1 guy had sisters and female cousins dating or married to a WM. These 4 AM had only ever dated AFs. They had never dated a WF or women of another race. Maybe a few weak ass attempts to hit on a white or latin girl in a club, but that’s it. They only ever socialize in all asian social circles and go out on “asian nights” in clubs. They actively AVOID going to clubs where the crowd is diverse. I’ve brought up several times the ever increasing attitude problems of AFs towards AM. They agree, but can’t muster the courage and effort to change by seeking women outside of their race.
I know they’re definitely physically attracted to white latin women etc… Culturally this isn’t an issue either. As all were born and raised in California, or came here before the age of 10 and speak English perfectly. They don’t do anything that is extremely identifiable as uniquely asian. We used to go clubbing, listen to top 40 radio, drink, watch and play sports, went or go to college etc…
I see it as a major sign of weakness and giving up and accepting your place as a lesser man when they don’t make any reasonable attempt to date outside their race because it’s “harder” & out of their comfort zone. Over the years, I’ve seen the quality of AFs they pull become lower and lower.
In general, it’s tough to get accepted into an asian clique after high school in southern California. I went to high school in the bay area and then moved to socal after transferring from community college.
A few anonymous AM quotes from another forum (some of these are my posts):
“The AM chodes in their group try to dog you because now you’re stealing one of their women. It’s like a small incestuous tribe. The women also have this super trendy “i’m all that” mentality too because they are used to having a bunch of lame guys in their clique orbiting them.”
“i was hanging w/these asian dudes who were originally from palos verdes high school, some were from the SGV. they swapped long term girlfriends. i mean these are tight homeboys who’d been homies since 14 or 15 and were about 20 or 21 at the time i met them. when one dude’d break up, his best friend would come in and start a relationship with his ex-gf. they would literally be rotating long term gfs amongst each other.
absolutely shocking to me”
“It’s hilarious i’ve seen this happen too, one girl would be known as the “hot” one and would have flings or semi-long term relationships with all the coolest guys in the group. You know under different circumstances it would be kind of kinky and maybe a little interesting but when you have to do it because you’re afraid of going outside the dating pool established since high school then it’s just plain fucked up.”
“this is the destructive cycle. some AM cling to AF because they believe they have limited dating options. by doing so, they make themselves less desirable to non-AF AND the very AF they cling to, and they further limit their dating options. they are their own worst enemy. you don’t need hollywood anymore.”
Despite seeing and being aware of all these issues, many AMs still remain the same. They stay in these cliques and only hit up AFs. They don’t have the balls to go out of their comfort zone and hit up white girls, latin girls, black girls etc…. Go out to a bar or club in any American city. I guarantee that you’ll see proportionately more WM, BM, Hispanic guys talking to white girls, Hispanic girls, black girls than you’ll see AM spitting game.
Kobukson: “PUA DOES NOT EQUAL GAME. PUA is only a particular interpretation of Game. Let’s get our terminology straight. Not every man needs to be a PUA to have Game but every man needs Game to be successful with the opposite sex.”
I agree completely. I think from now on, Kobukson and I we should just refer to these skills that AM should learn as “game”. PUA just has way too many negative connotations.
Bigwowo, Raguel, I partially agree that PUA has a lot of problems. I think in a lot of cases it overcomplicates a lot of instinctual game. If u ever read through mystery method. Itll talk about phase 1,2,3 and sub phase a,b,c, sub sub phases within those. Fuking ridiculous. Yet all in all, I know for a fact that significant aspects of PUA in addition to improving other areas of your life will improve your results with women. There is no way that AM as a group can be any worse off than they already are. The worse thing is that I don’t see enough AM approaching women of other races. You can’t get girls if you never approach. If it takes PUA to get AM to approach, then so be it.
The links I’ve posted to betterasianman’s podcast I think are great. Simple, clear examples of what to say and do, motivational.
And another thing. I just spent 2 hours writing this shit up. Ironically the majority of AMs who have their life together who are IMO above average with women of any race almost never spend time debating this topic. Their lives are just too busy: work, school, social life, dating, relationships etc… to engage in formal or informal lengthy intellectual debates on why AMs suck in the social scene. I don’t think im great with women at all. Im just not afraid to approach and get rejected and try again. Through self reflection, I saw the problems in AF attitudes and opened my eyes to the worthiness of white, latin, black women as viable partners for AM.
Right now, I happen to be unemployed with extra time on my hands, and uninvolved in a relationship (tho I am seeing a white girl). Also, I think im more of an armchair analytical guy, probably why I studied engineering in college as well.
How do you guys propose AM learn “game” so they can better compete in the social scene?
(kobukson, anyway i can contact u?)
Firstly, it should be said that AM have been, and are doing, a LOT of things right. AM’s (in the U.S.) invest in their futures with hard work and education. They make sure that they are able to provide a decent living for themselves and their families, and can provide at least a reasonable level of financial security. THAT alone is something that women of ALL other other ethnicities (including Whites) are constantly complaining that their men don’t do enough.
This is not a bad thing. This is not some horrible mistake to be apologized for! But yes, doing that does carry some social costs. Yes, it’s going to take a bit longer to get into the dating scene, and some developmental social opportunities may be missed.
I just wonder if perhaps the Asian “Tiger” approach can simply be modified a bit to minimize the social costs without loosing the great advantages that it brings on many other levels.
“I’m basically saying, Bigwowo, if you really wanna help the AM demographic. Write a guide on how to become more attractive to women and be specific. I mean be very very specific including stuff to say, behavior, what to do, what not to do.”
I get where you’re coming from asianguy but the specificity may be a mistake. Women are quite different, and it’s not like what you say to one is necessarily going to work with another. There really isn’t a master list that can work on ALL women. In fact, there are some women who like the exact opposite as others so… that leaves you with a problem.
You have to go with a more organic approach.
kobukson, anyway i can contact u?
Sure. Just click on my handle and you can find my email on my blog.
But yes, doing that does carry some social costs.
I would like to submit this statement by King for the “Understatement of the Year” Award.
It is important to understand exactly what the hell happen and how we got here and why we need Game.
I now believe that the Model Minority burden is the single biggest culprit responsible for the gender divide. This burden empowers females while simultaneously emasculating males. Males pay a much heavier price for social retardation than females. No matter how much feminism tries to tell us otherwise, men and women are not equal. No amount of ideology trumps biological wiring. This inequality plays out in ways which we can plainly see constantly within our own community.
The existence of the average AM is effectively that of a celibate monk for at least a decade and likely more, starting from puberty. You are brainwashed to focus on endless studies, standardized tests, college entrance hell, and achieving financial stability. Many AMs also have the misfortune to pick fields like engineering which only hardens their social maladroitness even further, where male-to-female ratios are downright depressing. The average AM ends up wasting most of his prime years that are most fertile for developing critical social skills, especially with the opposite sex, on piles of tedium and boredom. He is led to believe that things will somehow magically “take care of themselves” after you’ve achieved this and that first. The average AM is literally being castrated by his own family, community-at-large, and himself.
The net result is an entire generation of inexperienced, unattractive dweebs who try to get by almost entirely on their beta-provider cred. This is a mistake according to the teachings of FORMAL GAME. I met a young guy the other day who was new to the group and was trying to impress me and nearby ladies (by earshot) by going on and on about his studies, what his futures ambitions were, what schools he went to, etc. This is a familiar scenario. He was boring the living piss out of everyone, including me.
The stereotype of AMs as being ideal potential candidates for being stable husbands with good, well-paying jobs with whom to raise a family DOES NOT EXCITE THE LADIES during the critical prime phase between 18 – 30 years of age. The power of the beta-provider role as a means with which to attract the fairer sex is optimal only in more traditional societies where men are the principal breadwinners while women stay at home. Striving to be an excellent beta-provider worked for our parent’s generation, whose mentalities were perpetually stuck in the Old World. They thought what worked for them will work for us also. But it does not work for us as we are slowly discovering. AM emasculation is rooted in this severe dissonance, our upbringing based upon what our parents believed was true conflicting with later reality which no one saw coming.
kobu: “I now believe that the Model Minority burden is the single biggest culprit responsible for the gender divide.”
i don’t believe that’s true. The gender divide is because a lot of AFs see WM as above all other races including AMs regardless of social ability. Even if an AM was an absolute mack daddy PIMP, he’d have no shot with an AF who only chases WMs.
I do think the model minority burden causes a lot of AMs to be socially inept and limits their options of women of all races that are open to AMs. but Kobu, i know for sure that a lot of AMs dont grow up in those Tiger mother households. Even then they still suck w/women a fair amount of the time. I think the biggest factor is that they got no role models that are good w/women.
asianguy: “this is the destructive cycle. some AM cling to AF because they believe they have limited dating options. by doing so, they make themselves less desirable to non-AF AND the very AF they cling to, and they further limit their dating options. they are their own worst enemy. you don’t need hollywood anymore.”
You seem pretty enlightened for a 27 year old.
I wrote a commentary two years ago based on the very same premise that you expressed above. This other blogger, Minority Militant, liked it so much that he made it into an entire blog post.
http://minoritymilitant.blogspot.com/2009/10/price-of-poon-asian-men-must-diversify.html
http://minoritymilitant.blogspot.com/2010/07/price-of-poon-ii-comment-that-broke.html
It’s based upon the idea that dating is a market, pussy is like a commodity, that it has a “price” (based on perception, not intrinsic value) which fluctuates according to the laws of supply and demand. I’ve argued that Asian fetish (which is basically a robust, ongoing demand for Asian pussy) drives up the price. This price manifests itself in the increasing entitlement-complex of AFs, the fact that AMs have to be more materially successfully in the absence of other advantages in order to compete with any generic white guy, and other absurdities. I’ve also argued that AFs intuitively realize this and use it very effectively to their own advantage. This is the basic reason why AMs and AFs will never truly see eye-to-eye on IR disparity. Furthermore, the fundamental nature of the dynamic between men and women within the dating market is essentially that of a zero-sum power struggle. It is amoral, there is no “right” or “wrong” but only self-interested parties. Love and romance are illusions. I’ve found that this is in agreement with much of the philosophy behind FORMAL GAME.
Even if an AM was an absolute mack daddy PIMP, he’d have no shot with an AF who only chases WMs.
I don’t know about that. I think a lot of AMs function under the assumption that AFs who date WMs are not open to AMs. I think that’s a myth. We’re like the superstitious sailors of the past who had maps that said “There be Dragons here” and were afraid to venture too far for fear of falling off the edge of the earth when it comes to matters of IR. But that has never been put to a real test. Do you know of any cases in your own experience where an AM has directly competed with a WM for an AF (nevermind the outcome)? I sure don’t. Because that sort of act would require mental toughness, balls, and a sufficient amount of Game, which AMs largely lack. The Asian-American forums that discuss IR is completely devoid of such testimonials. I believe much of the handwringing about AF’s exclusive “preferences” is done mostly in fear and ignorance rather than being based on hard empirical based upon collective experience. Game equips the curious AM to be able to put that theory to the test for himself.
I think a good way to visualize this is to use the analogy of animals in the wild who urinate on trees or rocks to mark their territory. Each time a WM takes an AF, its like they’re pissing on our trees and rocks thereby enlarging their territory while diminishing ours. It’s like we’re too timid to contest the boundaries. The bright side is that most WMs that AFs tend to date are dorks. That fact gives an AM who is sufficiently competent at Game a fighting chance in engaging a dorky WM (whose only “game” is his white privilege) in a head-butt mating ritual over the AF. It also helps if the AF is a worthy catch. The reward for going through this trouble is that the AM, if he is the victor, can derive much sexual satisfaction from having his own cock pleasured by a reclaimed AF who previously seemed only into white guys based upon the principle of gratified sexual jealousy and the fact that we valued more that which seems hard to get.
“I would like to submit this statement by King for the ‘Understatement of the Year’ Award.
Well, I’ve gone into some detail on previous posts how missing a certain male/female interaction beginning in the teenage years can leave men somewhat polarized from the opposite gender. I believe that there is a certain period in your development when you learn, by experience, to be comfortable and communicative with the opposite sex.
You see a similar window in which adolescent predators begin stalking their siblings, and pouncing upon their parent’s backs, in development of the skills that they will use their entire lives. If they fail to “play” the hunter, they will never become a hunter.
I’m not downplaying the harm done by missing these social opportunities, I’m just saying that they might be engaged in while still keeping the hard work and educational values as well.
Asianguy,
Will answer your long entry later today.
Notty,
You keep hitting superbly relevant points! Thank you!
So I don’t know where we stand on NLP since it looks like there are fifty different versions–and who knows, maybe there is an empathetic version–but you do raise a very interesting point about empathy not being teachable. I’ve always felt this way. Throughout my years of talking to people, there are some people who will never ever get it.
And yet…yin energy is what many Asian men may need.
I would submit that perhaps…perhaps…even if it isn’t possible to teach empathy, perhaps many Asian men have a kind of post-stress-traumatic-disorder where they have the capacity for empathy; it’s just held behind a huge dam of all the psychological bullshit that Asian Americans go through. Once you fix the problems and try to heal those wounds, there may be a reservoir of human empathy hiding behind the injuries.
Asianguy,
Here’s my response:
1. What you’re saying is that Xian got lucky? Getting lucky isn’t all that bad. We all get lucky. You can see that he’s a bright guy, empathetic, and speaks well. He’s got international experience, and he can emote well. I think that goes a long way in getting out there. He himself said that he isn’t a playa. I don’t know…I’ve always thought that being open and honest isn’t a bad way to go. Sure, there’s no game involved, but to be honest with you, I know very few married people who consciously worked to develop \game.\
2. When you talk about game, you’re developing a band-aid approach. All this talk about Kingston, Tan, Hwang, colonialism, etc. is setting the stage for creating real change. Like it or not, no matter how hard you work to increase your game, if you’re saying one thing about yourself, and the media is saying something totally different, you’re going to have a credibility issue, even if you’re being truthful. That’s why I encourage people to holistic approach to the problem rather than just a reactive approach.
Like King, said, you can’t be too specific because what works on one woman will not work on another. Also, what represents YOU might not represent Kobukson. I do think there are certain conventions that are good to follow, but don’t expect life as easy (and as boring) that it would have one solution for all situations.
That said, I will include an individual section in my book project. Thanks for the suggestion. I’m going to take it.
Thanks also for the stories. You may be right in the case of your friends. I think most Asian guys just naturally go for Asian women because they’re attracted to them, but not all are. You should get your friends to man up.
I think most of these guys probably just think that y’all are overcomplicating the whole procedure. Say what you want to say, be considerate, hang out with people in whom you are interested. Almost exactly what you’re saying about not being afraid to approach and get rejected. People like Kobu are overanalyzing the whole thing.
Now when it comes to media and history, it takes quite a bit of analysis. Orientalism is built into a highly complex structure.
Any semblance of thoughtfulness is completely accidental, haha.
I’ll say that the core of NLP covers what I just linked, and that a straight NLP course is very likely to touch upon the subject. However, how other courses incorporate NLP into them is a different matter.
Hmm, I want to tread carefully here. I think the assertion of the article I quoted is debatable, and while it may be true in some aspects, it’s probably more nuanced than “you either have it, or not”. What the article’s abstract asserts clearly is that we are not in control of when empathy happens; it’s spontaneous.
I do think that having gone through certain bad experiences, Asian men probably do have a lot of empathy for others who find themselves in the same boat. However, that doesn’t mean they have to react with sympathy and coddle others. They may react just as Kobukson does, believing that perhaps what is needed is “tough love.”
In fact, I believe that if you’ve gone through a similar experience, you can’t help but empathize on some level. Still, it does not mean you have to remain submerged in that feeling or cognitive state. You can detach yourself from that and act in a way that you think is more fit.
An interesting search to do in google is “Heinz Kohut” and “empathy”. Apparently, one of the things he kept saying was that people completely misunderstand what ‘empathy’ is. I quote from this link (there are others):
Anyway, I think ‘empathy’ is a very nuanced topic. I personally want to be careful with labeling people as “unempathetic”.
P.S. I’ve been trying to reply to another post of yours but my post kept disappearing into the ether. Could it be caught in a spam filter perhaps?
Notty,
Sorry about the ether. Your message was NOT in the spam queue, so I’m not sure what happened. If it makes it any better, it took me three tries to get past the Captcha yesterday. My old theme had a way in which we could bypass that if we had our own logins, but I don’t know if people here want to have to create usernames and passwords. These days, I usually just type it into Notepad, eliminate the “word wrap” (if I’m using a PC), and copy/paste. Too bad spammers make all this extra work necessary.
My bad–I just looked at what you said about empathy not being teachable, and I didn’t click on the article. I’m reading through it right now, and it looks pretty good. I do agree that maybe it’s a state of being rather than an action or a skill. As the article says, like falling in love, it just happens. I’m sure there is further complexity in here too, as I think one could argue that Asian men have difficulty drawing this empathy from people other than other Asian men. Kobu, for example, empathizes with other Asian men trying to “score,” but I’m not sure he’s empathizing with that poor young woman, even though his heart yearns to be in the right place.
I’m still thinking about the paper’s definition of empathy. It’s actually stricter than mine in that it knocks down the barriers between subject and object and insists on oneness.
I think it’s the focus that makes a big difference. One can focus on an end goal (better media, more mentorship) while keeping one’s empathy in the background as a driving force.
I think that I’ll read the first article you sent, as well as the second, and maybe put it into another blog post in the future.
(Let me try it in pieces…)
“NLP is taught at some sales seminars. I don’t know what they teach at the PUA seminars with respect to NLP, but if it was anything like the NLP/Ross Jeffries stuff that Strauss defined in The Game, it’s similar. I will admit that I never took any such classes, and but it does look like it’s been mostly ignored by industries except for sales, self-help, management training, and other areas where you’re supposed to get something out of someone:”
Strauss’ book is all about selling himself and Mystery. I’d rather get the straight info on NLP out of an introductory book on the subject.
The plain truth is that some of the heavy hitters in psychology at the time NLP began believed enough in it to collaborate with its founders. These were people like Virginia Satir, Gregory Bateson, Fritz Perls and Milton H. Erickson. I think that’s in the Wikipedia article you linked.
An exact quote from an early NLP book called “The Structure of Magic” is: “This book is designed to give you an explicit set of tools which will help you to become a more effective therapist.” It also explicitly states that its aim is to find what structure lay behind the work that the most effective therapists did.
To your point, however, I do acknowledge that there’s more interest in it from people interested in persuasion, than from people looking to do therapeutic work with it. I don’t know if that actually has to do with politics or, the way the founders marketed it later, etc. Some therapists, though, do believe in it enough to use it.
(apparently it was the wikipedia link…weird)
That’s debatable. Still, I’d agree that people should be reading just for the heck of it. It’s mind expanding.
Was that the episode of BAM plagiarism, the taunting, etc? I agree that was weak. Not surprising, though, since plagiarizing Mystery is actually a cornerstone of the current industry.
To be honest, though, I doubt that many people in APB’s forum were much interested in any ethical debate BAM got into. The ethos of ASF was the same: morality/ethics discussions were off-topic and out of scope. The main reason for that being that those discussions always devolved into a flaming mess because different people had different values, and different ways of looking at things.
Agreed. This aspect of NLP is about persuasion, and persuasion is soft power. The manly man way to get a woman is to knock them out with a caveman stick before you drag them back to your cave.
I think that, in general, people have trouble empathizing with an experience that’s removed from theirs. So, yeah, maybe some Asian guys can have a hard time getting a feel from a different POV. The same is probably true of others who have not been in those Asian guys’ shoes, and you can often see it their responses to these guys. It does go both ways.
That’s interesting. It almost sounds psychic. I only read the abstract and skimmed a bit of it, but I have the link bookmarked, so I’ll be reading that in full. I do know from what I skimmed that they seem to be at odds with psychologists such as Carl Rogers, who have a different view of empathy (he in turn seems to have been at odds with Heinz Kohut). (Oh, man, I’m name dropping like a rap video).
Yeah, it really does depend. Sometimes the appropriate thing to do is to dissociate, so that you can think clearly and effectively. For example, sometimes a more compassionate approach is what you need, and sometimes a more “tough love” approach is necessary (I’m not opining on what Asian Males need, btw). In order to take the latter approach, however, you do have to distance yourself a bit from those feelings of empathy.
What I mean is, sometimes dissociating yourself from those feelings of empathy is necessary in order to utilize whatever insights you gain from it.
I look forward to that! It should be an interesting discussion.
I also need to follow up on what it means to be a man. We’ve defined masculinity in the other thread, but it looks like we were asking the wrong question since masculinity is only part of what we’re looking for.
I think my brain is full.
King: “There really isn’t a master list that can work on ALL women. In fact, there are some women who like the exact opposite as others so… that leaves you with a problem.
You have to go with a more organic approach.”
Agreed. However, philosophizing over Kingston, tan and chin is certainly not going to help AMs get laid (or dates) in our lifetime.
Kobu: “The reward for going through this trouble is that the AM, if he is the victor, can derive much sexual satisfaction from having his own cock pleasured by a reclaimed AF who previously seemed only into white guys”
Sure you can bring some AFs back to being open to AMs again. But why bother? I don’t see anything in AFs that are of inherently higher worth as compared to WFs, Hispanic, black or indian women. In fact AFs who only date WMs are probably damaged goods.
First, I don’t fully agree with the WM vs. AM territorial competition analogy. Second, even if there was a hypothetical competition between WM vs. AM. I’d argue it’s better to go after their white women. Reclaiming sell out AFs would be like recovering former lost territory. I’d rather be on the offensive and attack right into the heart of my “enemy” camp. At least this way, you’d be a much more dangerous threat. Plus in current conditions, AMs dating interracially inspires confidence in other AMs.
Bigwowo: “When you talk about game, you’re developing a band-aid approach. All this talk about Kingston, Tan, Hwang, colonialism, etc. is setting the stage for creating real change. Like it or not, no matter how hard you work to increase your game, if you’re saying one thing about yourself, and the media is saying something totally different, you’re going to have a credibility issue, even if you’re being truthful.”
I assume you’re talking about changing how society perceives AM. I completely disagree that developing “game” is a band-aid approach. If all AMs were to work on game, and became more socially outgoing, actually approached non-AF women; Society’s perceptions and stereotypes of us would change greatly. If all Asians were good w/women, un nerdy, etc… Those stereotypes wouldn’t be funny anymore, cuz there wouldn’t be any semblance of truth in them.
However, I do agree that media is a big part of how society perceives Asians. I disagree that what you’re writing about is going to significantly change perceptions. Here’s a few media examples I think significantly affect AMs positively: Youtube stars, kevjumba, timothy delaghetto, nigahiga, Americas best dance crew, Far East movement. One thing in common, is that they’re all young and seen as universally “cool”. Debates about Kingston or Tan are just not part of mainstream culture.
Bigwowo: “You should get your friends to man up.”
I think most people after a certain age (probably around 25) just give up and never change. I’ve tried.
Bigwowo, again it’s ur blog, so philosophize all you want. Sometimes it’s very helpful. I enjoyed ur IR podcast w/urb4n. He brought up very good points that inspired change in my thoughts and actions.
“Agreed. However, philosophizing over Kingston, tan and chin is certainly not going to help AMs get laid (or dates) in our lifetime.”
That is not the purpose. The purpose of understanding the dominant influences on Asian-American society are to be informed and forearmed to counteract their influences.
The getting laid part can be worked on in tandem with the intellectual discussions. It’s not either or, right?
@king
Lol, I disagree here. Media and pop culture plays a big part in developing the perception of what is attractive in a guy and possibly a large impact on a guy’s self-esteem/confidence.
Which are both important factors in the getting laid department.
“Lol, I disagree here.”
Ha… OK… yeah, but you’ve got to admit that it’s much easier to effect personal outcomes by changing your own personal habits than it is tilting at the windmills of media, Dulcinea, in all of her glory, not withstanding.
@king
I agree with most of your other views regarding developing your own interest etc.
But if we want to look at the root of the problem which I suggest actually starts from the teenage years, if not the pre-teen stage. And that’s really where media kicks in because kids are more affected by media then we’ll or they’ll like to admit.
Some people like to blame their parents and their focus on grades for reducing their social opportunities/capabilities and frankly I don’t buy it. You’re in high-school, you’ve basically got six hours a day, five days a week and 40 weeks a year to chat up girls. And that’s if you listen to your tiger parents 100 percent of the time.
The reason I can only truly buy for guys not to, or at least try to chase skirts at an early age is due to self-esteem issues. And self-esteem issues at the teen/pre-teen age I suggest would come from the preception of your peers, which is likely to be heavily influenced by media and one’s response to media himself.
When one ‘misses’ the bus during the early years, it has a flow on effect which just makes it tougher and tougher in the latter days.
King hit it on the head as usual.
“Getting laid,” Asianguy, isn’t the main point. The point is to be informed, to build your skills at stepping up, but to also build empathy and the ability to understand what is going on in the world. Being informed and dating women aren’t mutually exclusive.
Who are we talking about? Most women run the other direction when they see guys who “work on game.” I know I do too.
I’m glad you liked the urb4n podcast. He’s a well spoken guy.
IF they know they “work on game”, otherwise the “game” tends to work on them. Few women want a guy who had to learn “game” on the internet or from a book– but someone they perceive as being an “authentic” player? That’s a different story and that’s another double standard.
Well I think it depends on the woman. Women tend to like guys who are confident, yes. But most of them hate the techniques that come from game. I don’t see game and confidence as being one and the same. Most women I know see right through the negs and DHVs.
@raguel: “you posted these videos from Kasia of the now defunct revolution31 PUA company. I had a look, and everything, EVERYTHING she said about how and what to do in a club, was plain COMMON SENSE…….
What *I* am thinking is, “Should guys even be PAYING people to TEACH them common sense, instead of developing it themselves?”
Again you straight up sidestep my direct points of debate. My point was SOME PUA is useful. Now you admit that some PUA is accurate, then you change the argument to whether or not it’s worth paying for.
I have NEVER advocated paying for PUA. I have never done it myself, so it would be hypocritical for me to advise others to do it. However, I’ve said probably about 5 times now. There is a lot of FREE PUA INFO on the internet in the form of ebooks, podcasts, and video.
Raguel: “You have never been involved in PUA, you have only watched podcasts and read PUA posts.
Therefore everything you have written in defence of PUA is IRRELEVANT.”
Yet, you claim to know ALL PUA is bad with such conviction, based on what grounds or credibility?
Raguel, I’ve called u out before to state ur background with respect to PUA. You have ignored me. If you are to make a case against or for PUA. It’s important to establish credibility. I’ve stated mine. Unlike you, I don’t dodge questions or points when in a debate.
I found a few easier to view PUA videos. It’s a FEMALE PUA coach’s perspective.
IMO, this is a clear example of a GOOD & ACCURATE PUA content. It’s also FREE.
It’s a 3 part interview:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPPIj6m5aOk
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niJv1O14R8g
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0oP1VP4BqA
Negs, I could see. They’re supposed to be subtle backhanded compliments, not outright insults.
DHVs is just that: displaying high value. Unless a woman is going to become so paranoid that she’ll think a guy is using PUA everytime he shares something that seems impressive or cool, I don’t know how they will know the difference. There’s a difference between bragging, and actually sharing something cool when the context is right.
I will give you this though: Most wannabes I see “DHV’ing” seem to think that it entails talking about yourself nonstop while the girl’s eyes glaze over.
They don’t care about what she wants, what she needs, what she thinks is missing in her life, what her most cherished dreams are, her most cherished memories, etc.
asianguy
I think for those of us who have objections about PUA methodology, the claim has never been that there is NOTHING taught under the banner of PUA that makes sense.
Our claim has been that PUA is an admixture of the obvious with the insidious.
It’s like someone saying: “Try walking to a girl’s house while waving your arms, and singing the National Anthem at the top of your lungs!” This should guarantee that 1) she’ll notice you and 2) consider you to be unique and interesting suitor.
So you do it, and the girl answers the door—listens incredulously for a few seconds—and then slams the door in your face. The PUA post-mortem is:
a) Hey, we said to WALK to her house and you did actually get there, so that part of PUA actually worked!
b) You were actually standing at her front door!! So, score!!!
Obviously there are some common sense parts of PUA that are going to get you the common result. Walking will get you to a destination. Knocking on someone’s door will probably result in the person opening it. But these are not proofs that PUA will get you to your ultimate goal.
In the end, it may just get you widely labelled as a player and a jerk.
@Asianguy
I have never “admitted that some of PUA is accurate”. Stop conforming what you read from me into what little you understand about the world.
I’m not splitting hairs with you about what proportion of PUA is “accurate” or crap.
My contention is that PUA is misleading and harmful for a wide range of reasons. The reasons, I have posted at length elsewhere.
Go back and read to try and understand, if you don’t have a learning disability that is the same reason you took extra long to finish college.
Nice videos, by the way. But whose case do you think will be more convincing if I started posting more videos too?
Keep on living in denial.
@Asianguy,
By the way, one more thing.
Good point regarding credibility. Based on your own admission we have established that you have ZERO credibility. Will you now dismiss yourself from the debate?
ROFL
You’re so stuck splitting hairs and defending PUA like your sex life depended on it you’re not even thinking straight.
raguel, you just did it again. i’ll just cut n paste what i wrote earlier.
You selectively pick and distort statements out of context to debate. You straight up ignore counterpoints and rebuttals. (im not referring to ur scat w/john doe)
http://www.flamewarriors.com/warriorshtm/nitpick.htm
Yet, you clearly have the time to write lengthy diatribes “judging” & lecturing kobukson, PUA, making ad hominem attacks.
Again, you refuse to state your background on the issue while expecting everyone else to see you as an authority on PUA.
You’re quite a hypocritical moron to assume anything about my educational background. Since you’re losing the argument. I see you’re trying to discredit me by questioning my educational history. Why don’t you ask how many degrees I have and what’s my highest level of education? Then again, we shouldn’t be splitting hairs should we?
You should take your own advice and dismiss yourself from this blog.
@King
For the record, I actually agree with you that a fair amount of PUA is harmful and really cheesy bullshit sold by hustlers trying to scam gullible guys. I obviously don’t know what amount since I never paid.
I do think it’s possible to write a “guide” to get better with women that is more specific and can be used in tandem while improving all other areas of a man’s life.
i.e. I see life containing 3 spheres of influence: health, wealth, relationships
if any one of those spheres are lacking or dysfunctional, it will affect the other 2 spheres. I think it’s analogous to becoming a more cultured person, getting in better physical shape while simultaneously working on skills that are directly correlated with attracting women.
@ asianguy
Well for the record, I also agree with your statement.
“I do think it’s possible to write a “guide” to get better with women that is more specific and can be used in tandem while improving all other areas of a man’s life.”
In fact, I have been saying for years that SOMEONE should simply take all of the crap out of PUA and teach being better with women in a realistic way. The problem is that once the whole notion got monetized, it’s all about making the bucks and much less about helping the average guy. The need is *definitely* there, but it’s easier to exploit the need than to tell the truth and help people.
For me, another thing about PUA, is that it’s practitioners are masters of avoiding the obvious when it comes to the bigger numerical picture.
To pull a number out of the air, let’s just say that 10% of both Men and women are truly and strikingly beautiful. Let’s further say that maybe an additional 20% would be considered attractive. Everybody else falls into the average and below average populations.
So, overall the “beautiful people are like 30% and everybody else is 70%.
How many PUAs ever come right out and say, “Every guy is not going to be able to get with the cheerleader/model/Homecoming Queen?” because the numbers don’t lie. There are not enough classically attractive women to go around for every guy who thinks that he deserves one. In fact, they don’t all even date guys.
The truth is that if you are NOT fairly good looking yourself (something you may have little control over) then your chances of dating your fantasy babe are actually pretty slim. Not impossible, but also not very likely.
The recognition of facts like these, is known in many quarters, as “Growing Up.”
That’s not to say that you won’t find crazy good love and lasting happiness, it’s just to say that you may not find it with Dream Barbie. But how many PUAs teach *expectations management* and reality to men? Most will tell you that with the right PAU lines, confidence, and enough tenacity, Quasimodo could date Denise Richardson. I’m not saying that this NEVER happens, but it’s basically a lottery win… don’t expect it.
I haven’t ever read this in the PUA literature. Maybe it exists somewhere, but I haven’t seen it.
@king
I honestly thought it’d be very obvious that looks do matter; even to guys that are bad with women, that PUA does not allow everyone to bag a supermodel.
Here’s my biggest critique of some forms of PUA, mainly mystery method. It breaks down “normal” human social interaction into too many steps and sub-steps to follow. Then it tries to sell that process as if it were some new amazing method of attracting women. The problem is that if a newb starts talking to a girl and starts thinking inside his head A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, B3, he becomes robotic. i.e. he’s not natural and it’s hard to come off natural if all ur relying on is “mystery method”. I personally don’t like the “mystery method” ways, it’s too analytical and inconducive to bonding with ppl, improvisation and conversational flow. Mystery method and similar forms of PUA, have an incentive to overcomplicate things, so that they can package it and resell it as some form of secret jiu jitsu.
Yet, those links I posted above. Kasia recommends very simple, natural “lines” and things to say, do or not do. It’s all free as well. I personally like better asian man’s structure too. It’s very general and easy to remember without cluttering the mind.
Largely, I just don’t see anything wrong with a man who wants to directly improve his dating skills. I remember I was comparing text messages w/my buddy. My texts were a bit brief and not too many emoticons etc… His were more flirty, descriptive, so were the responses he got back from girls. I saw what worked for him and implemented it into my “game”.
Same thing when I started clubbing a while back. My white guy buddy showed me how to dance a little further from a girl, then slowly close the distance and then culminating in a spin move that ends with the girl cradled in my arms, then occasionally transitioning into a makeout in a corner somewhere. (my buddy is not a PUA) also showed me that it’s healthy to have a high tolerance for rejection and that you have nothing to lose when approaching a woman.
Some of my friends are naturally cocky/funny/witty with women, some come off as a friendly laid back nice guy who puts on the move when the time’s right. i sort of observed and used what could work for me, some stuff wouldn’t be congruent with my personality so I wouldn’t use it.
I’d tell him how I’ve been handling this one girl. He’d give me feedback. I’d learn from what he’s doing with his girls etc… We’ll be out at a coffee shop. One of the guys’ll dare me to hit on the waittress, vice versa
I’m a very strong proponent of having a good overall lifestyle:
1. Health-staying on a regular fitness regimen, include a nutritious diet and fashion sense here
2. Relationships- putting in quality time with good friends, family, and dating women.
3. Wealth- career, education, work on achieving goals of financial success so that you can provide for your current or future family
That said, learning to snowboard or going to the opera is not going to teach someone how to flirt with women or understand why she’s flaking out last minute on a date. But I do absolutely agree that trying new experiences are a good thing for your overall wellbeing.
A major problem with a bunch of AMs is that they don’t approach. You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take. If “mystery method” can at least get them to approach, it’s better than nothing. Probably in time, they’ll fiddle around with “mystery method” and develop their own “game”.
King: ” n fact, I have been saying for years that SOMEONE should simply take all of the crap out of PUA and teach being better with women in a realistic way.
I nominate you. In fact, I’ll even make a small paypal donation if you decide to do it. That’s how strongly I believe teaching AMs to be better with women of all races will help their overall happiness in America.
@Asiangay
Let’s not talk about me for a second. First, let us talk about you.
You have admitted you have ZERO experience in PUA. You have never taken a bootcamp, met a PUA, or met a PUA guru. Yet you want everybody to see you as an authority.
You have ZERO credibility on this matter, so going by your own standards, when will you dismiss yourself from this discussion?
Furthermore, Asiangay. That’s a long ass queer post you got posted just now. Did anybody ask you for a field report? I skim through it and I see you doing this and saying that but I don’t see you having sex with any women or making out with them or even dating them.
Why don’t you just save us the trouble and tell us the last time you got laid, short and simple.
You side stepped my questions about ur background. Now you change the topic to how often i get laid? You’re lameness is actually kind of entertaining. i’ll entertain you. Last time for me, was last thurs. My girls on her period.
(i won’t be posting pics either)
@Asiangay:
Anybody can say anything on the internet, but thanks for answering.
Now answer the more important question: Since you have ZERO credibility, shall you remove yourself from the discussion now?
Now if you want to call me lame, pathetic, whatever, please go ahead. I feel you need a freebie, and also, being called names by some retarded child-monkey does not bother me the least bit.
But answer the question.
If you dare.
ROFL
Hmm my HTML tags seem not to be triggering correctly…
@King:
The old school’s assessment of looks is that they mostly help a guy in getting an audition, but that something more is needed to actually close the deal.
What was also acknowledged, but not talked about much (why bother), is that if a guy was at pretty tall and well built, he was in the “high percentile.” For the most part, all those guys need to do is show up. Height matters more than looks, generally speaking, unless height is considered as part of looks for men.
Does height trump wealth and power?
For marriage, perhaps not, but for sexy time, I’d put my money on height.
Check out that link I posted for the psychological study on women and casual sex. They overwhelmingly picked Johnny Depp over Donald Trump.
Actually, horrible example. Trump is taller than Depp.
This is a better link:
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20000112/women-tall-men
It’s a bit complicated, though. There have also been studies that link height with wealth…
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All of you guys are missing a certain elephant in the room. A certain ethnic group dominates the media in American and much of the Western world. This same ethnic group uses the media to piss and shit on Asiam males. This ethnic group also was not famous for being good looking or socially skilled. In fact, they were rather book wormish. However, these days, this group has no problem with dating and marriage.
Do you really think women find guys with hooked noses, sloping forheads, beady eyes and curly hair attractive? Just some food for thought…
Is that you, Mel Gibson?
Mel,
That certain ethnic group has achieved great things. We should learn from that ethnic group rather than be angry. In fact, within the next month, we’re going to have a podcast on that. I’ve already made arrangements with a friend who is from that ethnic group.
Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. See this Twilight Zone episode at abagond:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/05/24/twilight-zone-eye-of-the-beholder/
I once had a girlfriend who was from that same “certain ethnic group”. They meet every Tuesday night to brainstorm ways that they can keep the Asian man down. Then again every Wednesday night for book club.
Wait hang on, we are talking about the same ethnic group, right? Lithuanians?
Lithuanians!! I thought he was talking about ELEPHANTS meeting in a room!
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This is much more thought out than your earlier accounts are there are some acceptable ideas and applied concepts here, but you do still make many flaws. I think you need to re wire your arguments and also you are entering a much more fundamental debate than you realize and there are so many factors at play here on varying levels it would take too much time to address them all, from your views on pua, to your own psychology influencing these. Briefly, the wider debate is on ones own self concept, is it you if you change is it still you, is change improvement right, and you discuss morals and what is ‘right’. These are huge issues and you have a dogmatic narrow view on this, i deduce from your article. I suggest you take a look at some philosophical writings on ethics, and not just follow the norm or divine command theory (if you are religious), this will expand your mind on the topic of ethics and morals, some even argue that no morals can exist at all through virtue of logic and reason.
BUT NOW TO THE RELEVANT RAMBLINGS
The biggest mistake you make is that you are viewing these puas through a very subjective lens and this is heavily influenced by your orginal standpoints and core belief systems. You view these men as puas and not mere men, pua is not creating these bad uncharacteristics in men. Men will always be wanting sex or wanting to get some as you elegantly put, it is an evolutionary desire, and by no means is this immoral. An argument on this basis is absurd, want is ‘wrong’ about wanting sex and getting it, the women consented and most probably enjoyed the sex as well (more than men, perhaps, think about that one). You need to found your arguments in reason my friend not assumption.
Your point on respect for women is a point about man itself. This is again is not confined to pua and many puas do respect women. However, it is easy to how it may appear to disrespect women and on a level. I think this point comes down to the individual, calling a women a hb is a mere description an objectification, but who can honestly say that they do not objectify women on some level. Every time you look at a women your brain evaluates them based on looks, an evolutionary phenomena…
I was going to critique your whole article and i may still do so if it has intelligent responses but right now i simply can not be bothered, at least you have a taste of it.
Actually this is not a mistake… in fact, you are doing the exact same thing. What you are saying is that an argument cannot be informed by the arguer’s understanding of the world. This is absolute foolishness. It’s like arguing that a person cannot relate what they have seen because they have seen it through their own eyes and not someone else’s.
Nobody in any of the arguments above has said that the desire for sex is abnormal or ‘wrong.’ Please attempt to confine your arguments to points that people are actually making. There is an obvious difference between desiring sex and doing ANYTHING at all to get it. The need for food is even more fundamental than the desire for sex. (See Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs) Yet we expect people to obtain their food honestly and without guile or trickery. If a man robs a grocery store of foodstuffs at 2:00 a.m. we don’t shrug our shoulders and say. “Oh well, he was hungry.”
In the same way we don’t excuse it when lowlife PUAs try to justify lying, cheating, pressuring people against their will, sarging, negging, and a myriad of other ethical missteps regularly endorsed by PUAs as “evolutionary necessities.”
Perhaps you would care to elaborate on how the obvious and endemic disrespect of women among PUAs is actually respect in a very good disguise?
Here is some more wisdom from me….. i detect an emotionally disdain for me in your comments. My point on subjectivity remands valid; you have misinterpreted it and placed meaning where there is none. One always views the world through his own lens, his perceptive of the world, his reality and the constructs that fall within it. But we should strive for objectivity and not let bias, be that bias our own, interfere with our judgement. I point out that the author is not objective, obviously one cannot ever be truely objective (or can they?) but there are certainly different levels of it, a scale, which the author slides to the bottom of.
Second point dismissed, it is about the author’s use of the phrase ‘getting some’ in a solely negative way.
Your discussion on the implied bad character of pua is not correct. PUA does not advocate lying or cheating on women, i don’t know where you have got this from but PUA preaches the opposite, that you should tell girls the deal before sex, such as ‘im kind of a free spirit, im not looking for a relationship at the moment, just fun’ or whatever framing you would prefer. No PUA theorizes lying or cheating.
Lastly, the issue of respect for women, one can be a pua or at least study and practice it and have a respect for women. I feel the burden of proof is on yourself (to prove otherwise). There is nothing in pua that is innately disrespectful to women, please feel free to name something (i sure you will name many… ill-informed). Using terms of such as HB are just descriptive, field reports are for users seeking help not bragging about their conquests. PUA can teach you to connect with women better, you can understand them and cater for their desires.
I ask you this, why do you find the seduction community so offensive?. Is it that you may not want to admit your own failings with the other sex, are you afraid you may not be the best version of yourself possible, protection of the ego (an overused concept lol), jealous of their success and ability or not wanting to admit you may have to learn a skill and that you are not born with. These are just mere guesses, do not take them personally, remember i do not know who you are.
Also how much do you know about the seduction community… it goes pretty deep, have you read any books on the subject, met any PUAs or used any techniques? Or just scanned a few websites?
How can that be? I don’t even know you? The intelligent conclusion to make would be that I am reacting to your ideas, not to your person.
Speaking from one’s own worldview, understanding, or conception, does NOT imply a lack of objectivity. Your lack of basic logic here is astounding.
Huh? Are you serious? PUA’s don’t disrespect women and aren’t dishonest? Where should I begin?
1) What is “negging?”
2) What is a “lay report?”
Any person who has gone on any PUA site can see much sexism in what they post.
You can tell a lot of these guys who get into PUA don’t even like women. They want to sleep with them or get into a relationship cause that’s what society tells you will make you happy.
I’ll disagree with one thing on this great final word. I don’t think any of these gurus can maintain a regular relationship. It’s not that they don’t want to, but that they can’t. Who in their right mind with those standards they look for would want to be a girlfriend to any one of these guys? I don’t think any of these guys sleep or get into relationships with any of the women they brag about. Anyone paying attention to their message boards, blogs etc an easily see that. It’s only the ones without any hope who choose to be myopic about it
Lets not even bring up the sexism. Lets just talk about the one thing everyone who wants who join PUA. Their methods don’t even work and when they rarely do, it’s based on not PUA but the fact that the woman probably already liked you to begin with.
Most people are getting into relationships, dating, etc. It’s a select few who aren’t. PUA makes it seem like that’s the end all be all. It isn’t.
The number of PUA members go down each day and will continue to.
Lol, if I ever start a blog I’ll make sure to never mentioned pickup artists, or that is a sure way to attract a slow procession of clowns in.
If an (averagely interesting) man could sleep with every women attracted to him, he would have enough women for life and more, one view anyway. King you are not very clever, and i have i cannot argue with idiots, but i’ve already showed you the error of your thinking whether you choose to accept it or not, goodbye.
I render this discussion as vile as Hitler (Godwin’s Law, look it up lol)
Funny, my Father married my Mother and that was enough woman for him for life.
Hahaha… implying, I suppose, that you never talk to yourself—the chief of all IDIOTS! You have come to this site with this pretentious air of self-importance and feigned intellect, yet you can’t even answer simple questions. Lol! You are twice the fool, because you are not only a fool, but you don’t even realize your own backwardness and tragic lack of intelligence!
In fact, here is a good example:
Do you even realize how stupid that sounds? Vile as Godwins Law?” What? Did you just look that up a few month ago and think it clever? We’ve all known what Godwin’s law is for years now. (BTW, Godwin’s Law is supposed to be a joke about internet conversations, not a real law. dummy) Did you think you were being impressive using big words? Hahahahaaha!
I know I have slight disagreements with a few posters here and there in regards to PUA stuff. However, LOLOLOLOL @ the chump trying to market for RSD on Byron’s site hahaha.
To illustrate how bad it is… even APB describes many of the RSD/ Mystery Method rhetoric as being esoteric and lame. You know that ought to speak volume in and of itself.
The funny thing is, until reading this article here, I had no idea the subject of PUA was brought over because ABCs and the other dude thought PUA and Activism go together as one. What!?!?!
Last comment, no really its going to be the finale…
Thank you for the noble characteristic of intelligence you have perceived in my writings. Just to clarify, the reference to Godwin’s law was to conclude the discussion and illustrate its growing worthlessness…
Stop it… You’re embarrassing yourself.
Just disappear, without attempting any further attempts to mitigate your humiliation.
As vile as Hitler. Wow. When in doubt, pretend to be offended by saying someone’s argument (against PUA, in this case
) is as vile as Hitler.