William and I have recently been debating on whether the Asian Playboy created his own system of pickup, and whether it’s right that Mystery, whom everyone agrees was Playboy’s original teacher, doesn’t get credit on the main section of APB’s website. I’m neither a Mystery nor an APB disciple, so on some level, it doesn’t make a difference to me. However, I think it’s an interesting question, both philosophically and practically. For William, it makes a difference since it’s how he defines himself and his activism. Is he an ABC guy, a Mystery Method guy, or will he do his own thing? To further explore this question in depth, let’s look at martial arts.
In this post are two pictures of guys who invented their own systems of fighting: Jigoro Kano, who invented judo, and Helio Gracie, who invented Brazilian jujitsu (I wanted to put them next to each other, but I’m only a “white belt” when it comes to web design). Both styles come from the original Japanese art of jujutsu (spelled with a “u” instead of an “i”), but both claim and are acknowledged to be unique systems.
I’m a judo man (or at least I was when I was in good shape), and the reason I studied judo was that it was practical and competitive. It wasn’t kata-based fighting where everything was theoretical; with judo, you actually had the ability to fight within a certain framework of rules, and your opponent would fight you. Jigoro Kano invented judo by instituting a system of randori, or free fighting, where people could test their techniques on live partners. It differentiated itself from Japanese jujutsu because:
a) there were new rules
b) there was a new system of training
c) the aim was different. You weren’t trying to hurt or cripple your opponent–judo and the various techniques were an art form that you tried to perfect. In fact, you and your opponent were supposed to be helping each other.
When Kano unveiled his new exercise form, he and his students challenged people to fights. They almost always won. Nobody could say it was part of the same system as jujutsu because the results, the rules, the training, and the philosophy were all different.
Brazilian jujitsu came out a while later, and when they emerged on the world scene, they too challenged people to fights through the Ultimate Fighting Championship, which started during the 90′s. They too claimed to have a new system. When I first saw the techniques of BJJ, the system looked eerily similar to judo. The Brazilian armlock, for example, was what judoka called the jujigatame, and what the UFC announcers called the “new” triangle choke, was called “sankaku jime” by judoka, which means, literally, “triangle choke.” For a while, I personally thought that the system was exactly the same and that they shouldn’t be calling it a new system.
However, upon learning more about BJJ, it was clear that the system was different. Judo, for example, focused on throwing, while BJJ focused almost exclusively on ground work. Judo was devised primarily as a system of education, while BJJ was more focused on winning fights–hence the philosophy of judo, and the push kicks of BJJ. Both were very effective (the top rated MMA heavyweight Fedor Emilianenko, for example, is a judo guy, not a BJJ guy), but they were very different. It is therefore absolutely appropriate to identify them as different systems.
Now returning to the question of the two, possibly three, PUA schools:
If you look at APB’s site and you compare it to the description of PUAs in The Game, there is very little that distinguishes the goals or results. As Kwak mentions, APB pushes unwilling guys to try to get a “lay.” The sexism, which Game writer Strauss acknowledges in the Mystery Method, is still there. They still do “lay reports” with the ABC method and the Mystery Method, and they still frequent the same places. They still objectify women by boasting about conquests.
Ironically, though so many students say that they are trying to find “someone special,” apparently the only teacher who has claimed to have done so is Strauss, who’s no longer in the game. Others make the claim temporarily, and when their sexism destroys their relationships, they move on to the next target.
I could be wrong about the ABCs, but based on what I can see, it’s the same goal, same results, as the Mystery Method. It looks like an Asian clone in yellow skin. The only possible difference is the methodology, which William said he will describe in a future podcast. I’m actually looking forward to hearing this.
Now some of you may wonder why I spend so much time on this. The reason is that I see potential in what William has done. Already, just looking at his site, it’s different. There are no “lay reports,” and none of the other misogyny that infests the sites of APB and Johnny Wolf. He has, in effect, started to lay the foundations for his own system. The aim and philosophy are different from the ABC system. Seeing the lay reports from the APB method and the disrespect that follows discussion in which PUAs participate, it might not be a bad idea to change up the method too. This sexism doesn’t just hurt women; it hurts the men who live it as well through destroyed relationships and bad karma.
As Larry recommended in our BAM podcast, perhaps William should redefine what it means to be a PUA. Or maybe he should toss the label altogether. Whatever system emerges still has to work on resolving the contradictions: teachers trying to teach what none of them have been able to do (finding someone special and permanent), claiming to want to engage women while disrespecting them with objectification, the cult-like hero-worship of the instructors that comes in a system that supposedly teaches independence; but I think it can be done. The reason I believe it can be done is that there are Asian men who have approached, have created relationships, and have lived as self-actualized people, and William can find and learn from these people. To date, there hasn’t been any kind of activism that has done enough to encourage this. It has mostly been a taboo that no one has touched. Most activism focuses on the lower part of Maslow’s hierarchy.
I don’t know if ABCs and Mystery Method are the same or not; what I do know is that they perpetuate the same bad mentality and destructive behavior which prevents people from having good relationships with those around them. As Strauss documents in his book, it destroys lives. BetterAsianMan has a great opportunity to change things up; William could found his own system, his own style. JT will continue to thrive–and more power to him, I like the guy, and I appreciate the way his actions have helped push the dialogue–but if we’re going to strive to be Better Asian Men, why not strive to really become better in all parts of our lives? Perhaps JT can become the student if William succeeds in creating a better system. After all, we’re all on this earth to learn and to help each other.
Returning to the martial analogy, even though Bruce Lee predated modern MMA, he is heralded as an icon. Diego Sanchez, Frank Shamrock, and others have all lauded Bruce as the central figurehead of modern MMA because he was the first to truly mix styles. If modern PUAs want to better themselves once they get over their approach anxiety, they need a new style which will teach them to respect and love women, not one which teaches them to manipulate or objectify. Modern PUA, despite its claims, therefore becomes confining rather than liberating. As Bruce knew, when your style is confining, it may be time to do your own thing. Find a style that suits you. “Be the water.”
No related posts.
But here is an...
I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
Byron,
Here’s a list of differences between the two systems that I highlighted in a previous post:
——–
If you would like me to itemize the differences of both methods in their entirety, we could do that over a podcast, because it would just be way too much typing for me to list out the differences here. However, here are the highlights:
1. The Mystery Method (source: The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed)
a. teaches guys to use indirect body language and indirect conversational topics in order to initiate conversation with women
b. teaches guys to use various forms of “negs” (one variety is called the “shotgun neg”)
c. teaches guys to befriend and entertain an entire group of people that their girl is with, even if they’re only interested in that one girl.
d. teaches guys to raise a girl’s excitement, laughter, and energy level as much as is humanly possible, even if this is achieved by reciting canned routines that are downloaded from the internet
2. The ABCs of Attraction Method (www.abcofattraction.com)
a. teaches guys to use direct body language and to express direct romantic interest in a girl in order to initiate conversation with women
b. teaches guys NOT to use various forms of “negs” on 99% of girls that they meet
c. teaches guys to acknowledge the entire group of people that the girl is with, and give 99% of his attention to the girl he is actually interested in. This is the simply the honest way to go.
d. teaches guys to spend as little time as is necessary in raising a girl’s excitement laughter, and energy level. We teach guys to be fun and exciting, but we explain to them that this is only superficial, and that the most real part of an interaction with a girl is the comfort phase, where you share things about yourself and your personality with the girl. We focus the majority of the bootcamp explaining to guys how to convey themselves. We do not teach canned routines downloaded off the internet, except during the first night of the bootcamp for learning and training purposes. After that night is over, we instruct students to never used downloaded or canned material ever again.
These differences may seem subtle, but if you’ve ever taken the ABCs of Attraction class and watch us do this in person, I can assure you, you will never falsely believe that “The Mystery Method” and the “ABCs of Attraction Method” are in any way similar.
———
-William
Byron,
At the current moment, I sincerely doubt that anyone will ever come up with a better way for someone with my background (see the ABOUT section on betterasianman.com) to learn how to meet, converse with, and date girls than the ABCs of Attraction. If anyone could come up with one, I would certainly promote it.
I have been, and will continue to focus on LIFE AFTER GETTING THE FIRST DATE. As you and I had discussed offline, I do not have anywhere near the same level of expertise as you do in relationships, marriage, and raising children. Practically all of my male friends from my high school and college days are naturally good with women, and they are currently married as well.
Now, one of the most important aspects of “life after getting the first date” is dating ethics. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about it and I’ve also introduced it as a new course module into the ABCs of Attraction. Beyond that, if you’re asking me to teach guys how to have healthy relationships I would be unable to do that at the present moment. Maybe someday in the future, but not right now; I simply don’t have enough experience in that as you do. I am constantly trying to improve myself in this area, but I’m simply not there yet.
However, I’m very knowledgeable on what it takes to meet a girl, strike up a conversation, get a date, and what it is that you’re supposed to do on that date.
-William
Byron,
One more thing– you said, “I don’t know if ABCs and Mystery Method are the same or not; what I do know is that they perpetuate the same bad mentality and destructive behavior which prevents people from having good relationships with those around them. ”
I actually don’t know if the ABCs method perpetuates destructive behavior. In our offline conversation, I shared with you some of the details of the previous committed relationship that I was in, and the specific ways in which I was not the best man I could be. I also shared with you my motivation in one of my specific behaviors, and how that came from a very unhealthy place inside me. I believe that in my case, these things were perpetuated by the ABCs method. In fact, as we discussed, the ABCs method actually taught me to do the opposite, but I went out and did the unhealthy things anyway.
So, in light of what we talked about, do you think that the ABCs perpetuated destructive behavior in my life?
-William
By the way, I need to fix the blockquote feature on this site. I haven’t been able to figure it out how to change it–if you know, please let ME know. In the meantime, please use the italics.
At the current moment, I sincerely doubt that anyone will ever come up with a better way for someone with my background (see the ABOUT section on betterasianman.com) to learn how to meet, converse with, and date girls than the ABCs of Attraction. If anyone could come up with one, I would certainly promote it.
My proposition in this piece was that maybe you should found your own “style.” Why do you doubt yourself, man? Why are you waiting? Just do it yourself. This is why I said that there’s almost a cult-like atmosphere within certain schools of pick up. If this ABCs stuff supposedly teaches independence, why, William, can’t you be independent? Already some PUAs on your site have said that you’ve brought it further than anything they’ve seen. Why not run with that?
One key difference between Mystery students and APB students that I’ve noticed is that Mystery students seem more willing to innovate and think independently. Plus, they analyze more. Haha…look at APB!
Also, look here. One of THE most famous PUAs of all time is an Asian guy, and none of the ABCs guys know about this. “Papa,” according to the Game, co-invented AMOG-ing. How many mentions has this Asian “pioneer” received on BAM? How much support has this Asian brothuh received from the ABCs? I’ve seen zero. Zilch. Yet, I’ve seen AMOG used time and time again. Talk about a ripoff!
Practically all of my male friends from my high school and college days are naturally good with women, and they are currently married as well.
Then why not study what they do and learn from them? More specifically, why not focus on their mindset? William, you’re an independent thinker, so why not just spend some time with them and see what it is that they do?
One thing about styles that I think I should stress: you can work within a style until you change the fundamentals. I’m saying that you should question the fundamentals of this system. They seem to be confining. For you, anyway.
So, in light of what we talked about, do you think that the ABCs perpetuated destructive behavior in my life?
I do. I learn when I talk to you, and one thing I’m beginning to see is that the ABCs teaches dependence on the leader and the categorization of “techniques.” It tells you that you NEED the system. It teaches you that you’re nothing without it.
William, if you’re truly interested in taking your knowledge to the next level, can I ask two favors?
1. Read “the Game” by Neil Strauss. It’s about your Sigung and his #1 disciple, so it’s relevant to our discussion. It’ll help you to learn more about your own history. I want to know what you think about both the journey and the ending.
2. Talk to those old high school and college friends. Don’t focus on the techniques; focus on the mindset. Listen to what they have to say. I’m not saying to be totally silent forever; just listen for maybe a day, or two, or a week.
Knowledge is not going to be spoon-fed to you, no matter what you study. There’s a well-known story about how Jigoro Kano was getting his ass kicked by a larger man during practice. He couldn’t beat him. So he looked at all kinds of books on wrestling, and he found a European book that illustrated the wrestling move known as the Fireman’s Carry. He adopted it to create the throw that judoka call “Kata Guruma.” He practiced it, altered it, and then used it to toss the larger man during randori. One of the top two American judo competitors of all time, Jimmy Pedro, now has Kata Guruma as one of his favorite throws.
Jaehwan,
Regarding the subject of a person coming up with his own style, I’d actually like to challenge you to come up with one. Let the person who thinks that the ABCs method is “bad” come up with a “good” method. I simply don’t find anything deficient with the ABCs method, as far is its stated purpose, which is to help guys navigate through the A, B, C, D, E, and F phases of interaction with a girl.
“Plus, they analyze more. Haha…look at APB!” That’s correct– JT found a fundamental deficiency in the Mystery method, and thus he created his own. I see no fundamental deficiency in the ABCs method, and thus I will not be creating my own. That’s why I said that the person who thinks that the ABCs method is “bad” should come up with a “good” method.
Re: Papa, thanks for letting me know about him. I never knew he existed. That’s why I haven’t mentioned him on bam. I can’t talk about someone that I don’t know exists.
Re: Then why not study what they do and learn from them?
If you’re referring to meeting girls and getting a date, I actually already have studied what they, but I was unable to learn from them. After I took the ABCs bootcamp, I realized that what they were doing actually WAS the ABCs method. They simply didn’t assign names to the thing that they do. Furthermore, while I was studying them and what they do, they were not able to explain what they were doing. I could observe, but I couldn’t repeat what they were doing because they were unable to explain it to me in terms that I, a man who is not naturally good with women, could understand. That’s why we call them “naturals.” They naturally and intuitively know the phases of a romantic interaction. They already do the A, B, C, D, E, and F phases of a romantic interaction naturally, intuitively, and without assigning letters to the phases of a romance that they walk a girl through. However, now that I have taken the ABCs bootcamp, when I hang out with these “naturals,” I know exactly what they’re doing each step of the way. They’re doing the ABCs method.
Re: “One thing about styles that I think I should stress: you can work within a style until you change the fundamentals. I’m saying that you should question the fundamentals of this system. They seem to be confining. For you, anyway.”
What do you mean by this? How am I confined by the ABCs method?
Re: “I do. I learn when I talk to you, and one thing I’m beginning to see is that the ABCs teaches dependence on the leader and the categorization of “techniques.” It tells you that you NEED the system. It teaches you that you’re nothing without it.”
I actually don’t need the system anymore. To help you better understand why, read the last part of my blog entry entitled “Thank You Asian Playboy.”
The ABCs method does not teach dependence on JT. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
The ABCs method does not teach you that you’re nothing with out the ABCs method. How did you arrive at this conclusion?
I could not find the verbiage on the ABCs website that indicates that you need the ABCs method. Where is this located?
-William
I wholeheartedly agree with Jaehwan on this matter. I do not view the concept of pickup as not an art form. Thing is, because these teachings are so ‘formulaic’ matters appear to be unnatural – and women’s intuition can pick that up. When building relationships are so mechanical (ABCDEF phases) there is a false sense of reality imposed on those involved.
“Healthy” relationships are based on building mutual trust, respect and understanding. Those are the fundamentals. But within the pickup community, how is trust and respect supposed to be gained when the fundamentals of the community appear to be antagonistic against these core principles? How can a woman trust someone that “picks up” people on a constant basis – those principles that are applied as a PUA.
I’m only stating the above because I have very healthy relationships in my life with both males and females. And what I’d recommend is instead of teaching these specific ‘formulas’, is teaching guys to focus on self-esteem and do what they can to improve on aspects of their own lives (EXCLUDING the life of “picking up women” and “cold approaching” as many as possible. If such teachings persist, then you are fundamentally teaching that “picking up women” and “raising self esteem” are one in the same, when ultimately those are two completely different aspects.
Life is not mathematical and calculative, so methods should not be based on such methodical teachings. Doing so creates the results of similar cult-like consequences rather than actually “cultivating” something healthy, which is fundamentally improving oneself as an ultimately goal ASIDE from picking women up as practice. Because the art of “picking up women” and seducing them perse is encouraged in the fundamentals, it is easy to view the community as misogynistic. These acts subconsciously portray the objectification of women.
Jin,
It looks like we both posted at the same time. As I mentioned in a previous post, it is really great to hear from you again, even if it is through the veneer of your anonymous internet handle (“Jin”).
You said, “Healthy” relationships are based on building mutual trust, respect and understanding. Those are the fundamentals. But within the pickup community, how is trust and respect supposed to be gained when the fundamentals of the community appear to be antagonistic against these core principles?
Which lesson in the ABCs curriculum teaches guys to not have mutual trust, respect and understanding?
You also said, “And what I’d recommend is instead of teaching these specific ‘formulas’, is teaching guys to focus on self-esteem and do what they can to improve on aspects of their own lives”. And here, I whole heartedly agree with you, and we teach men do do exactly this in AREAS OF THEIR LIVES OTHER THAN MEETING WOMEN. It sounds to me like you’ve never attended an ABCs bootcamp, otherwise you would have known that already.
You said, “Life is not mathematical and calculative, so methods should not be based on such methodical teachings. ” I agree with you on this one. That’s why I have been asking my readers on betterasianman.com for alternative recommendations of methods that I could promote INSTEAD OF PROMOTING the ABCs method. However, the first person to step forward was Byron (the author of this blog), and his first recommendation was that my readers try to learn from Mystery, which, by the way, is really just another pickup artist school anyway. Do you have a better way for someone with my background to seek romance without having to take the ABCs bootcamp as I did? I am still waiting for someone to propose an alternative solution. And by solution, this doesn’t mean that you can just say, “go out and build some self confidence,” or “just be yourself.” That sort of vague advice never helped me, for 29 years. But after I took the ABCs bootcamp, I was able to actually create new dating options and choices for myself. Do you have a recommendation for how someone with my background (see the “One Asian American Man’s Life” blog category on betterasianman.com) to do this?
“Jin,” I’m really glad that you’re participating in this conversation, and I really am glad to hear from you. I was not the best man that I could be when our paths crossed.
By giving your honest and sincere input here, you still have the power to positively influence my life, as well as the lives of all the guys that I will be teaching for the rest of my life.
-William
Jin,
You asked, “How can a woman trust someone that “picks up” people on a constant basis?”
Any single guy who says that he does not try to “pick up” girls on a constant basis is lying. On the other hand, a guy who is in a committed relationship who “picks up” girls is a total scumbag and should be ostracized. You always thought that I did this during the point in our lives when our paths crossed, but you’re wrong about that. It saddens me that you thought this, but I understand your point of view, and I accept it.
-William
Jin,
Re: “the life of “picking up women” and “cold approaching” as many as possible. If such teachings persist, then you are fundamentally teaching that “picking up women” and “raising self esteem” are one in the same, when ultimately those are two completely different aspects.”
The ABCs bootcamps do not teach men that “picking up women” and “raising self esteem” are one in the same. Also, we do not teach men to cold approach as many women as possible, but we do teach men to approach any woman that he is attracted to during the time that he is single. Any man doing that while he is in a committed relationship is a liar and a bad person. Do you believe that a man who is single should not feel free to approach any woman he is attracted to?
-William
I plan to give my candid/earnest feedback on the matter, regardless of the opposing opinions.
In life, in order to be successful we have to step outside of our comfort zones. We have to keep pushing our boundaries. But if in the core teachings and curriculum of the pickup community revolves around pursuing women as part of boundary-pushing and the constant art of seduction, then “self-esteem” and “seduction” become one in the same, no? Regardless of the school of thought, whether it be Mystery Method, ABCs of Attraction, etc. – the CENTRAL focus should NOT be on sex and approaching women.
Every man must learn to bifurcate between “confidence” and “pickup” – hard to do this when the core principals focus on approaching many women on a constant basis. Most people you consider “naturals” with women do NOT approach multitude of women as you think.
You state “Any single guy who says that he does not try to “pick up” girls on a constant basis is lying.” I think this statement is completely and utterly FALSE. Normal single guys don’t go about on a CONSTANT basis picking up women. Only PICKUP artists do that – and those that take the bootcamp do that. As previously mentioned, people in the real world and those that you consider “naturals” in being good with women go about their own daily lives, and usually get introduced by networking and NOT through picking up women on the streets, clubs, bars, etc. as you have been trained to think. This is ultimately why your subconscious thinking is unhealthy to think that in order to find the ‘woman of your dreams’ you must go about picking people up, as if it’s some type of hobby. Although the motto is “to find the woman of your dreams, be the man of hers” is a true motto – I must say that “being the man of HER dreams” does not translate to the pickup of women. I mean, what woman would really want to be associated with someone that habitually and constantly picks up other women they’re attracted to?
If the world of pickup encourages a constant process of picking up many attractive women daily, in a way you are simply hyper-sexualizing women in general and perpetuating the notion that men are after one thing: sex. If a woman experiences men constantly hitting on her and “going direct” on her, it makes her think you’re just like the rest of them. Women ultimately will end up marrying those that are sincere, those that are not pickup artists, those that she trusts and that can become her confidante.
As I know you have great potential William, I will say this. If you want to be a better teacher/better asian man, etc. you must first learn to improve YOURSELF by extracting yourself from this mentality of pickup artistry. To improve means to be FIRST and FOREMOST manifested by leading a good example for others and to discourage the dissemination of lay reports out of respect, otherwise you are merely injecting the subconscious sexual indemnification of all females. As I’ve mentioned, I find the Bifurcation of self esteem and pickup to be extremely important.
As I say all this, I may seem harsh, but I say this all candidly in hopes to HELP you and those that may want advice. My alternative advice for you instead of the blatant promotion of the ABCs of Attraction is the following:
1) Blog about your perception of those you see as successful (in life in general, both professional and in relationships);
2) Itemize reasons why you think this works as opposed to that (i.e. –pickup works because it takes me out of my comfort zone; pickup doesn’t work because it makes me objectify women in ways I shouldn’t); and
3) Find out from those that are married how they met their wives (I believe you will find that most of them did not go about doing so by “chasing” multiple women at a time nor picking up a multitude of attractive women daily). They were probably patient and went about their own lives and were not proactively looking to jump into a relationship (sexual or otherwise).
William,
Jin hit it SPOT ON. I look forward to hearing your response. I think one area where he and I are in total agreement is the listening thing. You seem to rate people based on values and fundamentals that you picked up at bootcamp. I’m saying that the world is a much bigger, much more complex place. It goes back to the same Tom Cruise question again.
“Regarding the subject of a person coming up with his own style, I’d actually like to challenge you to come up with one. Let the person who thinks that the ABCs method is “bad” come up with a “good” method. I simply don’t find anything deficient with the ABCs method, as far is its stated purpose, which is to help guys navigate through the A, B, C, D, E, and F phases of interaction with a girl.”
I already have my own style. If there’s a guy in Portland who’s having problems, tell them to contact me. If I like him, he’ll get personalized tutoring–jaehwan style, not only learn how to talk to women but also how to be a responsible citizen who can look out for others with leadership. I’ll show him activism.
As to the deficiencies in the ABC’s method: If you’ve had no problems with personal interactions, then I’d recommend you to continue doing exactly what you’re doing! I think the 44s and other women get creeped out though, and I think it’s worth your time to examine why. Other people, including King, also get creeped out by this. They ask why a guy who teaches relationships with women doesn’t seem to understand them–and I’ve posted that King quote before. The mindset of the ABC graduate is “me, me, me.” I feel this when I talk to some of you guys.
Now is this a problem with the curriculum? The teacher? I’d say yes. As Miyagi said in the Karate Kid (I have to transfer my old blog!), “No such thing bad student, bad teacher.” Did Mr. Miyagi take a class with the bully’s teacher? No, he could tell a bad teacher from the results.
This is also the reason I say that ABCs teaches dependence on JT. There’s a wealth of information out there, whether it be on Tony Robbins, Papa, Mystery, Frank Chin, whatever. Yet the only place you turn to is JT. What is wrong with this picture?
A real teacher would encourage you to look at everything. Kano learned Kata Guruma from Western wrestling, and he incorporated it into his system. Helio Gracie learned the “Kimura” from a Japanese judo guy named Kimura who beat him in a fighting competition. Not only did this gracious guy acknowledge his defeat, but he named the move after him! (Judoka call the move ude garami.)
“Re: Papa, thanks for letting me know about him. I never knew he existed. That’s why I haven’t mentioned him on bam. I can’t talk about someone that I don’t know exists.”
William, This troubles me more than anything you’ve written to date for two reasons.
1. Here is a guy, Papa, who is a leader/innovator in your field, APB is teaching something that Papa invented, and somehow APB has whitewashed history to make it look like his own invention. APB, if you’re on this board, feel free to chime in because this disturbs me. How can you say you’re supporting Asian men when you whitewash their historic contributions?
2. William, you’re an instructor of PUA. How is it at all possible that I know more about the foundations of your system than you do? I’ve never even been “sarging.” It would be like me lecturing Royce Gracie on the history of BJJ. If you really are an upper belt in PUA (whether it’s an art or not), I’d think you should know the basic history, and this reinforces my notion of the ABCs as some kind of cult, where the leader claims responsibility for all creation.
Would it be worth it to take some of Jin’s advice? The more I learn about the ABCs, the more suspicious I get, and the more convinced I become that it’s a confining system that is holding you back.
Also, will you take my advice by reading “The Game” and re-examining the lifestyles of your old friends?
Jin,
I knew you always saw the good in me, and as I said before, I am so glad to hear from you, even though it is through the false veneer of your screenname, “Jin”. I’ll address each of the points you mentioned:
First, you addressed comfort zones, and that in order to be successful we must step outside of them. That part I agree with. You hit this one spot on. Here’s the part where you’re wrong: the core teaching of the ABCs method does NOT revolve around pursuing women as part of boundary pushing. The central focus is actually not on sex and approaching women, so you’re wrong there.
Second, you said that every man must bifurcate between confidence and pickup, and that this is hard to do when the core principals focus on approaching many women on a constant basis. Again, you’re 100% correct about this. However, the core principle is not to approach many women on a constant basis. So, if your original assumption was right, you’d be right here, but your assumption was not, so you’re not.
Third, you said that men who are natural with women do not pick up girls on a constant basis. I’ll just have to take your word on this. I actually can’t prove it either way, but you seem to have more proof than I do, so I’ll take your word for it. You’re right, and I’m wrong about men who are natural with women. They don’t pick up girls on a constant basis. You also said that I think that in order to find the woman of my dreams that I must go about picking up girls as if it were a hobby. If I did think of picking up girls as a hobby, you’d be right here– you’d be right in thinking that I’m an “unhealthy” person. Unfortunately, you’re wrong. I don’t think of picking up girls as a hobby.
Also, you asked what woman would want to be associated with someone that habitually and constantly picks up other women they’re attracted to? I intend to find out. As I had mentioned on this blog entry:
http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=276
after my heart was broken by the girl that I was dating earlier this year (Jin, take a wild guess at who I’m referring to
), I spent a lot of time thinking about what I could have done to be a better asian man. I KNEW that I was not the best asian man I could be. But now, at the present moment, I am the best asian man I can possibly be. Part of being the best asian man I can be, I decided, was to be completely open and honest and sincere with the girl that I’m dating about my coaching activities, why I got into coaching, and what I teach. I made a decision to do these things:
1) change my screen name on the ABCs community forum to “William” instead of that ridiculous screen name “man cannon”
2) stop writing any form of field report, for the sole reason that my identity, and, by association, the identities of any girl that I”m with, is no longer private due to the fact that I’m an instructor
3) delete all field reports of mine
4) start a blog, called betterasianman.com, wherein I detail even more information about why I decided to take a bootcamp in the first place, and what my life was like after I took the bootcamp with the expressed intention of showing this blog to any girl that I choose to date going forward after going out on at least one or two dates with them
Now, back to your original question: what woman would want to be associated with someone that habitually and constantly picks up other women they’re attracted to? I intend to find out. I’ll introduce you to her when we are married. From the day that I was no longer with you and forward, I have rearranged my life so that any girl that I meet will know everything about my reason for taking the bootcamp, my life after the bootcamp, and my coaching activities, as they are all plainly laid out on my blog, as well as on the ABCs forum for all to see.
Fourth, you brought up something that I feel is VERY valid and 100% correct: “If the world of pickup encourages a constant process of picking up many attractive women daily, in a way you are simply hyper-sexualizing women in general and perpetuating the notion that men are after one thing: sex. If a woman experiences men constantly hitting on her and “going direct” on her, it makes her think you’re just like the rest of them. Women ultimately will end up marrying those that are sincere, those that are not pickup artists, those that she trusts and that can become her confidante.” However, the ABCs of Attraction does not encourage men to constantly pickup many attractive women daily. Your original assumption is false, (with regards to the ABCs of Attraction), so the remainder of what you’ve said there simply doesn’t apply to the ABCs of Attraction. Sorry, you’re wrong again here.
Regarding your statement of how “Women ultimately will end up marrying those that are sincere, those that are not pickup artists, those that she trusts and that can become her confidante.” I can tell from this statement that you haven’t read a single line from the “One Asian American Man’s life” blog category on my blog. Had I not taken the ABCs class, I would most likely never meet such a woman. Don’t you get it? I was socially retarted and didn’t know how to talk to girls. How can a man, like me, who doesn’t even have the confidence to tell a girl that he’s romantically interested in her after meeting up with her in a group/networking/friend gathering multiple times over the course of 8 months possibly meet a woman who would like him enough to someday go on a date with him, much less marry him? (read the blog entry I just wrote entitled “a prisoner to my own dishonesty”) Do you have an answer for that?
Fifth, you raised the subject of how I must improve myself by extracting myself from the mentality of pickup artistry.
Again, I see that you’re only saying this out of ignorance– you simply haven’t been following my blog, so I can’t expect you to have the most up to date information on who I am. It has, after all, been quite a while since we last saw each other. First, please read this entry, particularly “step 5″, and then come back and tell me if you still think I need to extract myself from the mentality of pickup artistry.
http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=276
You also said that if I continue to encourage that people write lay reports, I’m injecting the subconscious sexual indemnification of all females. Um, I have no clue what this means. Indemnification means “compensation for loss or damages.” I think you’re trying to say that I’m causing men to objectify women. I believe you’re wrong in this assertion. Please further clarify why my encouragement of writing lay reports causes men to subconsciously objectify women.
I actually don’t think anything you’ve said sounds harsh at all. In fact, this is one of the most honest posts I’ve seen all month from any person on this website or the fighting 44′s. Unfortunately, your first 5 assertions were wrong.
I like your recommendations for what I should do instead of promoting the ABCs of Attraction, but there are certain problems that you’re still not addressing1
Your #2 is something that I will definitely be doing on my blog.
However, your suggestions of #1 and #3, while good to know, actually do not help people with my background in meeting girls and getting a date. There is no way for a man to establish a heatlhy relationship with a girl until he can first get at least one date with her. That’s the key point that I feel you simply don’t understand, and the reason why you don’t understand is because you’ve never had a problem getting a date in your life. Ever. Think about it, and answer me honestly– have you ever had a in your life go by (while you were single, and not in a relationship) when you did not have the opportunity to go out on date with a guy? Now, imagine my life, growing to the age of 29, and having 2 years go by and only go out on 3 dates while being VERY single. (again, read this blog entry for detail: http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=339) Your advice to someone like me, at the age of 29, after having gone through that is to observe people who are successful, and to “be patient and go about my life without proactively looking to jump into a relationship sexual or otherwise”. Jin, I’m sorry, but that is what I did for 29 years, and it got me absolutely nowhere.
-William
“1) change my screen name on the ABCs community forum to “William” instead of that ridiculous screen name ‘man cannon’”
I dunno. “Man Cannon” is kind of catchy. Mind if I borrow it for the Fighting44s forum?
“after my heart was broken by the girl that I was dating earlier this year (Jin, take a wild guess at who I’m referring to ), I spent a lot of time thinking about what I could have done to be a better asian man. I KNEW that I was not the best asian man I could be. But now, at the present moment, I am the best asian man I can possibly be. Part of being the best asian man I can be, I decided, was to be completely open and honest and sincere with the girl that I’m dating about my coaching activities, why I got into coaching, and what I teach.”
You are too hard on yourself at times, William. There is also the possibility that the problem lay with this woman. Maybe she had some “issues” that caused her to break up with you.
Or maybe the chemistry between you two at this point in your lives was the problem.
You may think that I am “wrong” in so many aspects, but the bottom line is that I believe the after-effects of the bootcamp create an unhealthy mentality. And this you don’t realize – and will hope you shall some day. I think this is why Jaehwon and I are standing firm in our viewpoints on the matter. The problem is, that due to the things that it teaches (and ENCOURAGES in constant woman-approaching) that it leaves a subconscious scar that you yourself do not see. Because you don’t acknowledge this, women eventually will find you a little “weird” or “creepy” and you won’t fully realize why. How are you to figure to it out when your mind is telling you that things are so positive and great, post bootcamp. You have to keep an open mind that perhaps it’s not ALL working. Perhaps you have CONVINCED yourself it has. Otherwise, don’t you think you would have found a lasting relationship by now? Just some food for thought.
Truth is, I think your HEART is in the right place, but I believe your MIND is not. I actually agree with what Jaehwon said when the mindset is “me me me” and I agree. I too feel the same way when I talk to you and the rest of the pua guys (and yes, I’ve had more interaction with pua’s in recent months). And I agree with Jaehwon when he said the 44s persist on “They ask why a guy who teaches relationships with women doesn’t seem to understand them” – You don’t seem to understand women and you don’t realize it. How are you to ultimately help other guys when you yourself are not that good with women? JUST because you can APPROACH comfortably does NOT mean you are good with women and sustaining a relationship. While you appear to be honest, your honesty is a little strange. Life doesn’t work so black or white, and I think that is how you view all this, even in your blog. You take things very very literally, when on a subsurface, life has layers – and everything has its good and bad, and it’s important to realize that. If people think you are creepy, even if they don’t outright tell you, you should take it to heart and take some time to examine it.
And above re: Larry’s response – perhaps this is also the problem – that you guys don’t think it’s YOUR problem at all and that it’s always SOMEONE ELSE’S problem or the other girls’ problems. Listen, I want you all to be successful. I want you to find “the woman of your dreams” and marry her. But you are not going to be able to do that if you keep thinking that this whole approaching women constantly is a healthy thing. Eventually, another girl is going to break up with you because she won’t want a guy that does that on a constant basis, regardless of how he appears to be committed. It’s not someone she’ll be able to trust nor would (in the long run) want to commit to. Then you’ll get your heart broken again in time – this is not what I want to see. If you are impatient and continue to seek relationships via approach then you’re only going to become temporarily satiated. In the long run, it will do you no good.
Life is multi-layered. I believe the community is good in that it has this crazy support system, but I also think it has partially brainwashed you into thinking that all these things will make all positive changes. Only the people who are socially adaptable seem to think that you are somewhat weird and those that are in the community (because they are all somewhat the same) seem to fully support you. It’s a strange repetitive cycle. It’s hard for the rest of us to help you if you don’t acknowledge anything inherently wrong with the system. Perhaps that’s why people haven’t fully spoken up to help you – you get defensive and you shoot down their recommendations anyway. It’s negative reinforcement.
I’m sure we can go back and forth arguing/disagreeing all day about what I’ve written – line for line, word for word – but again, that may be fruitless. That’s why I’m not arguing with you on every single matter as you are doing. Natural social adaptation does not entail literal translations nor does it entail arguing as if we’re in a line-by-line debate. I just think you should take some time to ingest what Jaehwon and I have said – we are both coming from a good place.
William,
Jin is SPOT ON again!
William, of course we’re planning to (and will) debate the merits of the ABC’s, but Jin says something that is very relevant to this topic. She (I’m assuming Jin is female since…well, look at William’s post…) focuses on practicality vs. theory, and this is exactly what I was referring to when I referenced Mr. Miyagi from the Karate Kid in my last post. “No such thing bad student, bad teacher.” We can see the results.
I remember on the 44s when there was this guy called Octaventi who came in to defend APB whenever the discussion moved in his direction. Octaventi kept comparing PUA with sales, which I think is accurate, especially when they rate women by numbers and use terms like “buying temperature.” I think it was a good comparison–not for relating for women, but for talking about what it is that PUA teaches. What few people are pointing out, however, is that as in sales, your prospects vote with their feet. If there’s a problem with your thinking, women will not date you–they’ll walk away. Or else they’ll date you and then leave you. In the case of the 44s women, the PUA creepiness immediately registered with them. I don’t agree with the way some of them treated you, but the visceral reaction was there, and they immediately felt the need to get away.
This part by Jin was right on:
The problem is, that due to the things that it teaches (and ENCOURAGES in constant woman-approaching) that it leaves a subconscious scar that you yourself do not see. Because you don’t acknowledge this, women eventually will find you a little “weird” or “creepy” and you won’t fully realize why. How are you to figure to it out when your mind is telling you that things are so positive and great, post bootcamp. You have to keep an open mind that perhaps it’s not ALL working. Perhaps you have CONVINCED yourself it has. Otherwise, don’t you think you would have found a lasting relationship by now? Just some food for thought.
This is brutally honest:
JUST because you can APPROACH comfortably does NOT mean you are good with women and sustaining a relationship.
I mean, think about it. If the ABC’s fundamentals are off, of course you’re going to run into problems. Women will vote with their feet.
That’s why I think Jin’s advice is very good. I’ll repost it here:
1) Blog about your perception of those you see as successful (in life in general, both professional and in relationships);
2) Itemize reasons why you think this works as opposed to that (i.e. –pickup works because it takes me out of my comfort zone; pickup doesn’t work because it makes me objectify women in ways I shouldn’t); and
3) Find out from those that are married how they met their wives (I believe you will find that most of them did not go about doing so by “chasing” multiple women at a time nor picking up a multitude of attractive women daily). They were probably patient and went about their own lives and were not proactively looking to jump into a relationship (sexual or otherwise).
William, I think you NEED to create your own system for happiness. We should definitely talk about some good parts of the ABC’s, but I think we all know that it falls short and perhaps creates or enables a harmful mindset. The APB system just seems to, well, fall short. I could help you with your new system if you like.
“And above re: Larry’s response – perhaps this is also the problem – that you guys don’t think it’s YOUR problem at all and that it’s always SOMEONE ELSE’S problem or the other girls’ problems.”
You misread my comment. I did not suggest that it’s always someone else’s problem. I was not even making a commentary about the nature of man-woman relations in general.
I suggested that William consider his break up was not necessarily his “fault.” It could have been an issue with his girlfriend or just the dynamics of the relationship.
Jin,
You are so right– any system that encourages constant woman approaching is bad. I don’t know if it leaves a subconscious scar, but it’s definitely dishonest and “bad.”
I’m really sorry you had to waste all of your time typing all of that, because the one fundamental flaw that you still fail to see is that you think that the ABCs of Attraction method encourages men to constantly approach women. This is a false statement. We don’t teach that. Not even close.
-William
William,
We should have a discussion on theory vs. practice. Actually, I was going to post on that before my compassionate side kicked in. Jin is referring to practice, which supercedes theory in most cases. I can teach love and peace like Falun Gong, but if I encourage hatred and fear like Falun Gong, then it no longer matters what theories I teach. You need to look at the results. Going back to Mr. Miyagi again: “No such thing bad student, bad teacher.”
American Heritage Dictionary
en·cour·age (ěn-kûr’ĭj, -kŭr’-)
tr.v. en·cour·aged, en·cour·ag·ing, en·cour·ag·es
1.) To inspire with hope, courage, or confidence; hearten.
2.) To give support to; foster: policies designed to encourage private investment.
3.) To stimulate; spur: burning the field to encourage new plant growth.
teach (tēch)
v. taught (tôt), teach·ing, teach·es
v. tr.
1.) To impart knowledge or skill to: teaches children.
2.) To provide knowledge of; instruct in: teaches French.
3.) To condition to a certain action or frame of mind: teaching youngsters to be self-reliant.
4.) To cause to learn by example or experience: an accident that taught me a valuable lesson.
5.) To advocate or preach: teaches racial and religious tolerance.
6.) To carry on instruction on a regular basis in: taught high school for many years.
v. intr.
To give instruction, especially as an occupation.
Obviously, there is a fine line between teaching and encouraging. Although the ABC’s of Attraction method may teach against constantly approaching women – hell, I don’t know what it teaches – it doesn’t mean the overall system does not encourages a certain behavior. Simply put, if a man is better at getting into healthy relationships, he will be more likely to approach more women. If someone has a higher success rate, he will be more confident, and he will do the action more and more often. And maybe eventually – for lack of better words – a playa is born.
William, all the stuff you have done is rightious, you are trying to help people with something they are not good at. You have been working at removing any negative stigma associated with PUA from your teachings. But to be honest, I feel like the ABC’s of Attraction has become your bible. You seem to have grown a strong attatchment to it, and will shoot down all claims (or claims thrown relatively in its direction) down with a “What you fail to see” I feel like you’re closing yourself off from valid opinions because of something small, and that you’re simple acceptance of an opinion may limit you from truely understand where someone else is coming from. Again, I feel like you’re doing this, you very well may not be.
I would like to point out this:
Jin said:
If the world of pickup encourages a constant process of picking up many attractive women daily…
You reply:
However, the ABCs of Attraction does not encourage men to constantly pickup many attractive women daily. Your original assumption is false, (with regards to the ABCs of Attraction), so the remainder of what you’ve said there simply doesn’t apply to the ABCs of Attraction. Sorry, you’re wrong again here.
You’re refute to Jin ascertation on the “world of pickup” immediately defends the ABC’s of Attraction. Jin refers to the the entire image of the PUA world; whether or not ABC’s of Attraction teaches the constant approaching of women contains a value of naught here.
Like Bryon has mentioned it seems that a theory vs. practice discussion.
William,
I think to continue to foster this discussion you need to stop looking for the single points of statement which may not agree with the ABC’s of Attraction, I feel like you are removing any (if any) credibility in any of the subsequent statements to yourself. If you expect people to remain open on our opinions on the site, I expect you to remain open to the opinions that we give you, albeit when supported [good or bad]. I am not trying to attack you, and I do feel like I am singleing you out, I’m just stating my observations as clear as possible.
I also feel the need to ask you this:
How does the ABC’s of Attraction not encourage the men to constantly approach women?
You’re explanation above starts off saying:
However, your suggestions of #1 and #3, while good to know, actually do not help people with my background in meeting girls and getting a date. There is no way for a man to establish a heatlhy relationship with a girl until he can first get at least one date with her.
But you go on to continue to talk about to continue to talk about the improtance on getting that date. It feels fevrent, are you sure that this is not taught?
Give me a cold, hard answer. This way its clear.
I’m coming in very late into the conversation, so I’m still picking up pieces here and there. So feel free to nit-pick and kick my writing and logic in a metaphorical place of pain. I won’t take offense. Oh and really, correct me if I said anything wrong.
Jason
——————————
encourage. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved October 17, 2008, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/encourage
teach. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved October 17, 2008, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/teach
Jin,
First off, I apologize to you. I COMPLETELY mis-read your statement. You said, “the world of pick up encourages men to approach women daily,” not “the ABCs encourages men to approach women daily!!” I completely misread that, and then went off and wrote an entire essay based on that. Sorry, my mistake! (thank you Larry for pointing this out)
Also both you and Jason are right– sometimes point-by-point arguing is harmful to discussion because
1) it takes things out of context
2) it inherently imposes a moral judgement (i.e., “right” versus “wrong”, “good” versus “bad) on someone’s opinion.
In several posts above, I have imposed exactly such a moral judgement on Jin’s, as well as Byron’s _OPINIONS_, and quite simply, it’s not my place to do that!
There are times when point-by-point arguing is good, but this message thread is currently not one of those cases.
Sorry about that guys!
——-
Jason,
(A) Regarding your question– How does the ABCs of Attraction not encourage men to constantly approach women?
Here’s the cold hard answer: We discourage men from constantly approaching women during the bootcamp weekend, as well as during follow-up conversations.
However when a student is in a bootcamp class, we actively tell our students not to constantly approach women, and that approaching women as a goal in and of itself does not actually lead to real connections with people. In addition to making this blanket statement during the class, we also have many cases where students ask us questions during the “coffee breaks” in-between course modules, as well as contacting me and asking me questions days, weeks, months, and years after their bootcamp class has long since ended. During these post-bootcamp conversations we re-iterate the same principles that we convey during the class.
Below are summaries of some of these conversations. Some occurred during a bootcamp, and some occured after the student had completed his bootcamp.
Case (1)
mentality: approach women in as high numbers as possible
A student once shared with me one experience he had in a night club. (This incident occured at some point several weeks after he had completed his bootcamp). He told me that he went out, saw a girl he was interested in, and started talking to her. He then described to me how much he enjoyed his conversation with this girl, how surprised he was to find that they had certain things in common, and he also shared with me other things they talked about and shared with each other. He told me that they both liked doing a particular hobby, and that after having spent about 2 hours talking to each other that night, they decided to set up a date at a later time to do this hobby together. Then, after telling me all of this, he told me something similar to:
“But, there were a lot of other attractive girls there that night. Should I have continued meeting other girls in order to get more phone numbers just in case this girl flakes out and doesn’t show up for our date?”
(side note: Regarding the “doesn’t show up,” comment, he had told me that this has happened to him in the past, prior to taking the bootcamp, thus it was in the back of his mind.)
First, I told him that he should NOT go out and get more phone numbers as some kind of strange and unnatural “insurance policy.” I told him that the primary purpose and spirit of the ABCs structure is to convey oneself in an honest and sincere way, and going out and “getting numbers” just for the sake of getting numbers in and of itself is totally disingenuous. I also indicated to him that if his intention was to “just get numbers,” it would be pretty obvious to the girl anyway, and that this would serve no purpose other than to annoy the girl and also waste his own time and breath. I told him that if he felt honestly inclined to talk to someone, that he should continue to do that, but that “getting numbers” for its own sake may lead to unhealthy consequences. I then summarized this and posted it on the ABCs community forum for all to see. Many students later commented beneath my comment and explained why they already intuitively knew that this was the “right” way to go, and backed up my recommendation.
Case (2)
mentality: approach women in as high numbers as possible
During the bootcamp, we ask our students to decide upon goals for themselves for the evening. I had a student at this bootcamp come up to me and tell me that that he wanted to set a goal for himself to talk to x nmber of girls that night, and asked me if I thought that this was a “good” goal to have. I told him that when I first took the bootcamp, I chose the goal of talking to 10 women during the first night of the bootcamp, but that the “talk to 10 girls” goal that I wrote down in my notebook was merely a memento of my actual intention (a short-hand reminder, if you will), and not the spirit of my actual goal. The spirit of my real goal was to talk to as many women as I felt inclined to talk to.
I explained to him the reason that I had chosen that actual intention: I have had social anxiety problems my whole life. I have never had any clue what to say to a girl, and as a result, I very rarely tried talking to girls. So I wanted to be free (from the barriers in my own mind) to talk to any girl that I felt the desire to talk to. So, the spirit of what I wanted to do and my fundamental desire was to just talk to as many girls as I wanted to talk to. I then told him that he was free to choose his own goal, but that he should first look within himself, before we actually went out to the lounge, and decide on what the spirit of his desire was. I told him that simply talking to x number of girls would be dishonest– when you do this, you don’t really want to talk to these girls, you just want to fulfill some strange and unnatural mission. I told him that he could do this, but it would prevent him from actually connecting with the girl either in conversation, or in romance, or in any way whatsoever. “Talking to 10 girls” for the sake of talking to 10 girls helps no one, and can potentially lead to other negative consequences, such as continuing to live a life of thinking that women are objects of practice. During this conversation, other students were listening to the conversation. I then re-iterated this to them as well.
Case (3)
mentality: “get laid” with women in as high numbers as possible
Another student, after having taking his bootcamp several weeks prior, told me that he met a girl at a lounge. He said that he enjoyed talking to her, that they had a lot in common, and that they both shared the same sense of humor (which was the primary reason why he stayed in conversation with her the entire night). He then went on to explain that he was not interested in having a serious romantic involvement with her– he merely wanted to have a short-term intimate encounter with her. He acknowledged that he liked her personality, he enjoyed the conversation, and again referred to the similar sense of humor, but he said that he still was only interested in a short-term romantic encounter with this girl at this particular point in his life. However, the girl was giving signals to him that he interpreted as indicating that she wanted to pursue a longer term romantic involvement with him. One such sign was that she would occasionally put her hand on his knee while they were seated, and would gently stroke his leg with her thumb while her hand was placed there. Another such sign was the implied statements she was making about other activities that they could do together, which were based on the things they had in common that I mentioned earlier in this paragraph. Within the context of what he was saying, I understood that this girl was interested in dating him in a romantic context that was certainly not on a short-term intimate encounter basis. He agreed with me on this. He said he “wanted to get laid,” and that he “could have gotten laid, but…” he told me that he did not try to “make a move” on her, and then came to me and asked me if he should have “made a move” on her because he “wanted to get laid” and “hadn’t gotten laid in a while.” He also asked me if he should “make a move” on a girl if this same situation comes up again in his life.
I asked him to reiterate to me whether or not he was looking for any kind of romantic involvement with her that went beyond a short-term intimate encounter at that particular point in his life. He said, “no.”
First, I told him that if he was not romantically interested in the girl, that he could actually try to “make a move” on her WITHOUT SHARING THIS INFORMATION with her, but that this would be dishonest. She’s already dropped hints at wanting to date him, and he’s acknowledged that in his mind, but in his mind he has also already decided that he doesn’t want any kind of romantic involvement with her that goes beyond an short-term intimate encounter. I told him that several negative side effects would result in carrying out actions based on this decision:
1) Because he has already acknowledged in his mind that she is interested in something more than a short-term intimate encounter, based on what she was saying and doing in the context of their conversation, he would be lying to this girl. He’s not interested in pursuing anything more than an short-term romantic encounter with her, and he would be putting up a false front and pretending that he is.
2) She could potentially think that he wants to see her again, when really, she doesn’t. This sets up a situation for all kinds of hurt feelings and broken relationships.
Second, I told him that he could first tell her honestly how he feels about her (i.e., that he’s not looking for any serious romantic involvement with her), and then see where the conversation goes. If that leads to the short-term romantic involvement that he’s looking for, then that actually would be honest, and would not cause the harmful side effects listed above.
Third, I told him that ultimately the choice was his to make.
Case (4)
mentality: approach women in as high numbers as possible
During a different bootcamp, one student asked me, while we were in class and about to go out to a lounge: “Should I approach girls that I’m not attracted to?” It was clear in my mind that he had the mentality of “approaching women in as high numbers as possible. I told him that he should only talk to a girl if he feels a desire to talk to her, and not as an end in itself. I then went on to say that if there was something that interested him– an interesting piece of jewelry, an article of clothing that was of the same color as his favorite color, or if he simply wants to be friendly to people and she seems like a fun person to get to know, then that would be honest. My co-instructor then gave this student additional context on which to make his decision– he brought up the subject of the Mystery Method “opinion openers.” These are basically conversation starters, but using opinion openers that were downloaded off the internet are basically lying, because they are all based on the premise that you want someone’s opinion on something, when really, you don’t care about that subject at all. We then segued into the portion of the lecture where we talk about opinion openers, and how, when you create your own, the student should think of something that is going on in his life that he actually cares about and is actually interested in. Simply being friendly and conversing with “girls that you’re not attracted to” is fine, as long as you’re just being friendly, and as long as you’re actually talking about something you genuinely want to get someone’s opinion on.
During this part of the class, we also advise the students of the harmful side-effects of trying to use conversation starters that were downloaded off the internet:
1) It’s not you and can feel fake to both you and the girl.
2) Dishonesty- some canned material is nothing but lying to the girl
————————–
(B) Regarding your feeling of the ABCs structure becoming my bible
I understand with what you’re saying about my seeming to have grown a strong attachment. All you really get to see of me is what I’ve written on the blog (which mentions the ABCs of Attraction in the VAST majority of posts!!!!), as well as this discussion, which is an outgrowth of my specifically reaching out to Byron and actively asking him to tell me what he thinks is wrong with the ABCs of Attraction. Furthermore, 99% of my comments here on bigwowo.com do indeed talk about some aspect of the ABCs and why it is not “bad” in some way.
I actually have mentioned this in several on-line forum discussions on the fighting 44s:
—
(1) I believe that there must be some “way” other than the ABCs structure for a guy with my background to experience the things I wanted to experience over the past year (see items 2.a – 2.f below)
—
(2) I have have never in my life experienced, and always wanted to experience these things:
(2).a. Learn how to approach girls any time of day and talk to them in a non-creepy and non-needy way
(2).b. Improve my dating options with women
(2).c. Romantically connect with women on a consistent basis
(2).d. Feel confident in knowing that I will never have trouble meeting a new girl and getting a date
(2).e. Learn how to be myself
(2).f. Learn how to express my romantic interest in a girl in a non-creepy and non-needy way.
I’ve always believed B.(1), and that’s why I posted these entries on my blog, which were the only two answers that came from my request:
(3). Jaehwan: http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=107
(4). Kimtae: http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=108
I really believe that there is one out there that B(3), B(4), and possibly other methods could fulfill B.1, and I would like to hear about someone else’s experience in executing that method. I would DEFINITELY endorse a method that has worked for someone else. One of my objectives in creating betterasianman.com was to share with other Asian American men how people with a similar background to mine can experience 2.a – 2.f, just as I have. After taking the ABCs bootcamp, I finally did experience 2.a – 2.f. Really, that’s the only reason why I talk about it all the time on my blog– it’s the only “way” that I know of that has helped me to experience 2.a – 2.f. I actually DID try other methods between 1995 and 2007. I have detailed one of those methods in this blog entry:
http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=339
My hope is that someone will read my blog, see what my life was like (as described in the “One Asian American Man’s Life” blog category, and will step forward and say, “Hey! I have a similar background to you, and I experienced similar things as 2.a – 2.f, but I used a DIFFERENT method. Here’s what I did: ________________” I would then immediately post that information so that other people could try it out.
I know at least 17 people who have a similar background to me, and have been able to experience similar things to 2.a – 2.f using the ABCs. I know 3 other people who have a similar background to me who have each gotten into an exclusive relationship with 1 girl within 1 year of completing their bootcamp.
Now, the only reason why I don’t currently recommend any other method or structure (besides the ABCs) on betterasianman.com is because I have been unable to find any people who have a similar background to me who have been able to experience similar things to 2.a – 2.f using a method other than the ABCs.
-William
Thing is, you don’t need to blatantly endorse the ABCs the way you do. Your site no longer feels like a real blog. It feels more like a complete marketing ploy. And when you supposedly write a “blog” you introduce yourself as William all the time. We all know your name by now.
Again, a matter of perspective. But you need to step outside of the box and think like a normal person would think when they see your site. And as for my opinions as well as Byron’s, well we are generally discussing the pickup community – and ABCs is associated with the pickup society in general. Again, it’s a pickup issue.
And William you are quite quick to respond on your site and retaliate against eveything Byron and I have noted and suggested. As Jason previously noted, ABCs is like your “bible” and it’s quite scary how much endorsing you do. That’s why it has similar to cult-like features – because of the mindset, and I think you are overly immersed.
I’m not going to get into full details here about your own actions as they would get you to simply retaliate again line by line, word for word – not my goal. But you need to remain open-minded instead of turning everything you say, do and write into a blatant marketing ploy. It will be tough to find a sustaining relationship if you continue to sarge a lot, and write and think so methodically. You claim that being with girls comes ‘natural’ to you now – I’d like to say otherwise because you certainly don’t write nor think like a natural normal person would. I want you to find a lasting happy relationship, but I don’t want it to be temporary for you — and if this persists, it’ll be hard for you to find a longer lasting healthy relationship that is sustainable for years.
William (That’s your name, right?
),
Jin again hit it right on. I hope you’ll respond. It’s creepy how you say you’re looking to learn, and then everything goes back to how the ABC’s is right, regardless of the evidence that supports the contrarian viewpoint. Practically, you still haven’t found the long term relationship that you’re looking for.
I’ll wait for your response to Jin’s comments. I really have nothing else to add at this time, other than to say that I’m reading the new biography of the shy Warren Buffett, and he uses the Dale Carnegie method to get over his fear of people (including but not limited to just women). Of course, he eventually moved on to things outside of just getting women.
Byron,
The one single thought that has occupied my mind the most is this:
You need to judge the ABCs by the people who come out, not the theory.
You told me this on Saturday afternoon, and it really struck a chord in me. To observe the people who come out of the ABCs course, I needed to look no further than myself.
First, there’s the subject of sexism. My field reports have long since been deleted from the website, but I can stll recall first tihnking, and then writing, things like,
“The last-minute-reservations (to having sex with me) began as soon as we sat down at the dinner table.”
and
“She wanted me to lead her through the romantic interaction.”
These are comparatively G-rated examples of sexism, there once existed far worse examples in my own field reports, and there exist currently published ones by others (i.e., Johnny Wolf) that are far worse. These statements, as g-rated and seemingly harmless as they may sound, serve to perpetuate a set of roles, or a “place” into which men and women belong. The former implies a set of roles that it’s a woman’s “place” to have reservations about having sex with a man and that it’s a man’s “place” to overcome those reservations; the latter implies a set of roles that it’s a woman’s “place” to “allow” a man to seduce her, and that it’s a man’s “place” to seduce the woman.
Second, there’s the subject of objectification of women. The actual definition of the phrase “objectification of women” is slightly different from the definition of “sexism.” However, if objectification of women occurs on a repetitive and frequent basis, it will necessarily lead to a general overall behavior or attitude that fosters stereotypes of the “set of roles” or “place” into which men and women belong. Thus, objectification of women, while a slightly separate activity, ultimately ends up causing sexism and is therefore just as bad. So, something that someone might consider as harmless as saying,
“Hey, check out that girl across the street– she’s a 10!”
which is basically the same thing as saying
“Field Report– 10/20/08 – HB10″
which reduces a woman to a numeric categorization instead of a human being, when done on a frequent and repetitive basis is sexist.
Sexism and objectification both enforce stereotypes of social roles based on sex. Many women in this world do not want to be treated in a way that subjects them to stereotypes of social roles based on sex. Any system of behavior that causes women to be treated in a way that they don’t want to be treated has an extremely unlikely chance (if it has any chance at all) at being considered a “good” way of behaving. This includes the ABCs system.
Third, there’s the subject of irrational and cult-like behavior. If a person is doing something that has harmful side effects (including sexism, objectification of women, etc.) without knowing that they’re causing these side effects to occur is more than likely exhibiting cult-like behavior. The irrational part comes in when you start picking out individual statements and words from another person’s _opinion_ and imposing your own value system on it in the name of “defending” the said cult. This is exactly what I was doing earlier in this thread (as well as in several other threads of conversation on bigwowo.com). Not only does this kind of behavior come across as cult like, it also causes an unnecessary distraction from the spirit of what that person was trying to say in the first place, and thus wastes everyone’s time.
Fourth, there’s the concept of “guilt by association.” This is something that I have discussed at length with Byron since as far back as 4 months ago, but I unfortunately did not understand this phrase properly until now.When I was beginning to understand this concept, I disabled all links to the other PUAs who have much more obvious examples of sexism and objectification on their websites. While this is a step in the right direction, there is a fundamental linkage that is going on in practically every blog entry on betterasianman.com. However, if there is to be an acknowledgment of an influence in one’s life, then let it be merely that– an acknowledgment, lest it be transformed into religious cult-like fervor, which is what happens when an acknowledgment is repeated for no apparent reason. There are many shades of grey in life, and many things in this world are best expressed when placed in a balance with something else. So, if there is to be a mention in a blog post of an affect that the ABCs has had on one’s life, then that mentioning (or multiple mentions across multiple blog posts) should probably be balanced out with a mentioning of one glaring and extremely important element that is not mentioned: The ABCs does not address the subject of healthy relationships, does not provide guidance in healthy relationships, and that no ABCs instructor is by any stretch of the imagination to be considered a source of information regarding relationships. (These points were raised by Byron in items 1 and 2 on his original entry here: (http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/10/better-asian-man-jaehwans-official-review/), and I have only addressed and acknowledged in writing for the first time now in this comment box. This is not to say that an excessive mention of the ABCs lack of relationship knowledge should be repeated over and over again, as that would be the opposite extreme. There are many shades of grey in life, and the balance is in that grey middle is what should be aimed for in this case.
Fifth, there’s the concept of “life beyond picking up women,” which Byron first mentioned here, in his original post in item #5: (http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/10/better-asian-man-jaehwans-official-review/) if I am to become a better asian man, I must first figure out a way to spend more time (first in my own life, and secondly on my blog) on how to go beyond just picking up women. Yes, it’s important to know how to talk to girls and get a date. I don’t think anyone here is questioning that, but what is important is that this not be portrayed as an end in itself because quite frankly, it’s just not. To continue thinking in this way would be more likened to imprisonment, or possibly suicide.
Sixth, there’s the concept of “finding the woman of your dreams.” The spirit of this statement actually goes beyond just the mere word “find”. It actually implies much more. For most people, this means having a healthy committed relationship with a woman. For others, as silly and immature as this may sound to you guys, it really does mean to simply be able to go out on a date with a woman. That’s what it meant for me 1 year ago. However, this is no longer my goal. Thus, continually writing blog entries on a repeated and constant basis about getting a date is either a sign of the cult like behavior, or an indication that I’m lying, and I really don’t want a healthy committed relationship. If it were my definition of being a better asian man 1 year ago, then perhaps I should have blogged about that 1 year ago. I have a different goal today, so my blog should reflect that goal lest it be re-purposed as a hollow and empty marketing brochure for the ABCs.
(As a side-note about “finding the woman of your dreams,” you mentioned on 3 separate occasions how my not currently being a committed relationship at this moment is an indication of a “failure” of the ABCs, as if it had, in a sense, failed to help me find the committed relationship that I seek. I am still in the process of trying to resolve your opinion with a proverb that I’ve always found to be true, which seems to be contradictory to your opinion in this context: experience is the best teacher. But that’s just something for me to think about as I continue on my journey.)
Aside from these 6 things, I have also spent a great deal of time thinking about the contents of Byron’s blog entries and Jin’s and Larry’s comments in order to remove the plank from my eye and to gain a broader perspective on the ABCs in relation to several extremely important things: sexism as a general topic, objectification of people in general (not just women, but also men, groups of people, ethnicity, race, and nation), ethics (specifically in a teacher/student context), life goals, and communication.
This discussion has greatly influenced my thought processes and my fundamental way of seeing things. After all the discussion, all the reading, writing, (and also phone conversations with Byron), self-study, and introspection, I feel that I finally understand what you have been saying on this website all along. If you go back to the original conversation that I had with you, I specifically came to you requesting that you point out the problems with the ABCs. You’ve given me what I asked for (and so much more), and I hope that this summary of my thoughts communicates to you that I’ve learned a lot from you, and that I am very appreciative of the time and effort that you’ve invested in me. This more than I could ever ask of a friend, and I feel very lucky to have met you.
I’m glad you are able to at least acknowledge some of the things that could potentially be perceived as problematic. I think you could learn a lot from Jaehwan here. And I hope that in due time, you find inner peace and happiness. (I sound like Buddha or Yoda, but hey, I’m a big fan of inner happiness and obtaining long-term life goals).
No need for me to address everything you’ve written, but because of the above response, I do feel like you are trying to understand. And I hope that in that understanding you find happiness and what you’re looking for. : )
Hey William,
Thanks for your response. I’m glad that you can see where we’re coming from.
I know that you and I are going to talk tomorrow night, so without jumping the gun, I guess my next question would be about the next course of action. What does this mean in terms of the direction of BAM? How does this change your associations? In other words, how does thought and knowledge translate into action?
When I talk about your potential, both here and on the podcast, I’m referring to your ability to get people to follow you. This is a good thing. It’s a form of power, especially for activists. (and if you look at my last post here, I’m trying to make this site a big more friendly for activists). It’s an awesome talent, and I enjoy hanging out with people of action.
Thanks again, William, and I look forward to talking with you.
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