[Jaehwan's Note: Jin and William know each other personally, and Jin asked me to post this after she tried several times to contact him but was unable to get a response. I've looked at William's site and it looks like he used something that she wrote, word-for-word, and didn't attribute it to her. William and I spoke by phone this morning. We talked for a good 40 minutes, but it basically concluded by him saying that he needed to "think about it." I responded that there isn't anything to think about. Five hours later, after a few more interactions between him and me, the comment is still there.
Usually this stuff doesn't happen; I think in the AA blogosphere, we've mostly been good about attributing things. Since the wording was taken off my site, and since it's one of my members whose writing was taken, and since I own that copyright on the bottom of the page from which he took the words (and so he's actually taking from me too), I think it proper to post it here and open this up to the community.
Honestly, I hate posting stuff like this, but it's just too big to ignore. I stopped fighting online a long time ago because negativity can kill movements, even if the negative party is right. It honestly pains me to post this. But what else can I do when neither phone calls nor e-mails correct certain behaviors? I happen to feel the same way as Jin, and I'm not looking to create a bigger issue out of this than we have to, but I think it would be equally wrong for me to just let it go without saying something. It's not the way an activist responds to a problem. William, of course, is free to respond here or on his own blog. We could even do a podcast. I won't edit his ideas.
Anyway, feel free to post your ideas or to contact me or William. Maybe I'm totally wrong about this. If you think so, please let me know.]
Leadership, Ethics and Plagiarism
In life, leadership and relationships it is very important to possess positive traits: honesty, sincerity, trustworthiness, understanding, and respect.
The reason for this is because actions and those qualities have a direct and indirect correlation to others that look up to you. When one’s actions do not correlate with what you say/write/preach, then one is being insincere and unethical.
I exemplify this in light of recent events:
On October 29, 2008
Betterasianman.com (“William”) had cut and paste MY exact words found here (
http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/10/pua-schools-and-the-quest-for-liberation/) and transposed it onto his site in response to a comment written. My original opinion/words were:
“I’m sure we can go back and forth arguing/disagreeing all day about what I’ve written – line for line, word for word – but again, that may be fruitless. That’s why I’m not arguing with you on every single matter as you are doing. Natural social adaptation does not entail literal translations nor does it entail arguing as if we’re in a line-by-line debate. I just think you should take some time to ingest what Jaehwon and I have said – we are both coming from a good place” and he plagiarized this specific opinion and posted as if it were his own response (without due credit). His site is here re “self-worth”:
http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=418#comments (which I’m sure he will take down upon reading this or try to cover up his actions). He even deleted my comment when I ‘discovered’ his misuse of MY words.
When confronted on the matter with multiple emails and text messages to take down MY exact words, he became evasive. This was pure plagiarism and in turn is completely unethical.
This concerns me b/c he is supposed to be a leader that teaches ethics and leads by example. For a person to properly teach ethics, one should act ethical, otherwise it comes off as shady and insincere.
To blatantly steal someone else’s word-for-word opinion and transpose such as your own is not ethical. To preach ethics in life and not actualize one’s teaching is not ethical. To evade one’s own intentional misuse of information does not demonstrate an effective, honest leader.
Opinions are not wrong. And to state one’s feelings in one’s OWN words is important. To be truthful means to express one’s own thoughts. Agreeing/disagreeing is one thing, but to plagiarize another’s precise words as a leader brings about light to a myriad of issues and consequences.
Again, the views above are opinions that are of my own. We can all agree to disagree that ethics and other topics are subjective to one’s own perception.
No related posts.
I agree with everything you said. About #1…I think...
8(
After my comment on his blog entry, he deleted it. I simply called him out on the word-for-word copying and then linked it to where I initially wrote it. And then I left another comment, but ALL my comments are filtered on his site. Quite honestly, I think he is merely trying to conceal/hide/disguise his unethical actions. He also does so consistently in real life. I have issues with ‘leaders’ who do not act honestly. He has completely avoided all emails, texts, correspondence in which I ask him to delete his plagiarized comment (especially after deleting mine calling him out on the plagiarism). He should really come up with his own opinions in his own words. Better Asian Man should not preach “if you think I’m bullshitting, tell me” – I am doing so and then he hides. He says, for the first 29 years of his life, he was dishonest. I’d like to point out that he is to this day still dishonest (just concealing it well).
Like you Jaehwon, I really don’t like doing this either. But I believe in freedom of speech (why delete/filter my commments if you (william) have nothing to hide?) In hiding and evading, you are not being an ethical ‘man’ and not owning up to your actions. For someone who teaches a code of ethics, to not lie, steal, cheat – I find it inconceivable that you don’t follow what you preach to others. I have lost a lot of respect for William, esp since he has evaded my concerns and did not own up to his actions (just like the many times as he has proved outside of the internet realm. As the internet realm allows him to appear omniscient). Leaders should lead in an ethical manner. Although this is a minor offense, one should really re-evaluate ethical behaviour as it parlays to who you are at the core.
Byron,
I went back and re-read the comment on my website and the comment on your website. The one on my website is an opinion about relationships. The one on your website is an opinion about bootcamps and the pick up artist community. They look pretty different to me.
-William
the fact of the matter is William you STOLE my words and cut and paste it as your own. Then you blatantly deleted my comments pointing to where u plagiarised. Your argument above doesn’t work because the subject matter discussed doesn’t matter – it’s a matter of cutting the opinion and MY Exact words and using it as your own.
I emailed and texted you several times and you have not responded. Evading the issue and not confronting it dies not gain you respect. Not only are you evasive you delete anything that points to your flaws or make you look bad.
How blind are you to be to not see that stealing my words is not right?
I’ve also tried calling to no avail. All I’m trying to do is talk to you to fnd out why you plagiarized but you can’t even acknowledge that you did in fact. Denial still doesn’t make it right
Ignoring me and deleting my factual comments don’t help either. The truth always unveils itself
Upon my review of the two comments, I find that the written language is quite nearly exactly the same, with the exception of a few name changes.
William, although they’re used in different contexts to debate different things, I don’t see that this makes them any different.
I could use the quote “I’m killing two birds with one stone” when it comes to planning a vacation, and seeing my best friend. Or I could use it when I’m buying a digital Camera, when I pick an ultra-zoom as a compromise between selecting a dSLR and a Ultra-Compact Point & Shoot.
Are you telling me that West Side Story is not a 1960′s modernization of the Romeo and Juliette?
I could go on and on with similar notions.
Although they may seem quite different on the surface, both items of each pair should leave the same impression.
Stop digging your hole.
It only makes it harder to get out.
So the truth comes out.
Jin jumps at judgment against William too quickly. Unless this issue is tried through a court of law, Jin should not be drawing legal conclusions here unless she is a licensed attorney. If I were William, I would be incensed at the accusations.
Things like this happen. It’s not intentional plagiarism. Many times I have sat down at my piano to compose music and I play out something I really like and think is original. Then on second thought, only much much later, do I realize it’s not my original composition at all, but I heard it earlier on the radio and the melodies subconsciously stuck in my mind. Therefore to accuse it of being unethical is premature, at least not before more facts are gathered.
How about this?
William agrees to delete the comments in question on his website. And William also agrees to talk with Jin privately and work out their issues, whether by phone, e-mail, etc. After which, Jin and Jaehwan agree to include some statement on this post that they do not hold hard feelings against William and have resolved their differences (or something to that effect).
There is no point in letting a dispute over a comment that is 86 words long become a flashpoint for a friendship-ending fight.
This whole campaign of scrutiny of William’s endeavours is really starting to resemble a fundie witch-hunt. So he (allegedly) copied someone else’s argument – so what? Take it as a compliment. It’s nice to see Asian activists tackling such a relevent issue as this one in particular and the PUA debacle in general.
If this is an example of Asian activism then I can safely predict the extinction of Asian-American rights in the near future.
This is what it’s like to get fucked over.
the point is b/c he not only simply took my thought but actually cut and paste my exact words and used it in a diff context then denied that he did so. And for a person to teach ‘ethics’ – he shouldn’t steal someone elses work and claim he didn’t. This is not a mere accusation or ‘mistake’ it’s a hard I.P. Fact – and b/c I know him I also understand he doesn’t like anything that perceived him negatively. Look we’re all humans who make mistakes – what? After his bootcamp he claims to be so reformed he no longr makes mistakes? I did not want it to get out publicly to save him embarrassment but he ignored it hoping it would go away – he hoped he wouldn’t get caught initially. He should have dealt directly with me. Whether be has shame or remorse is not the point. The point is to either admit your wrongdoing or simply don’t steal (ESP if you supposedly teach it) and then per his above response DENY any wrong.
akkrypti – I play the piano too and I know what you mean. That is subconscious inspiration for another piece. However I’ve never taken bethoven’s symphony and claimed I wrote it. Or have not taken an entire paraphraph from someone and claimed I didn’t take. I could even understand if William had some memorized mind and accidentally used my exact words. However I know him and doesn’t – he went out of his way and then intentionally cut and paste the exact words. Like I said thi could have saved him public embarrassment if he responded to any of my correspondence or as Ikindly asked to simply delete what he copied – these were all to no avail
Here’s the copy:
William:
http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=418#comments
I’m sure we can go back and forth aguing/disagreeing all day about what Martyr has written — line for line, word for word — but again, that may be fruitless. That’s why I’m not arguing with you on every single matter as you’re doing. Natural social adaptation does not entail literal translations nor does it entail arguing as if we’re in a line-by-line debate. I just think you should take some time to ingest what Martyr and I have said– we are both coming from a good place.
Jin:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/10/pua-schools-and-the-quest-for-liberation/
I’m sure we can go back and forth arguing/disagreeing all day about what I’ve written – line for line, word for word – but again, that may be fruitless. That’s why I’m not arguing with you on every single matter as you are doing. Natural social adaptation does not entail literal translations nor does it entail arguing as if we’re in a line-by-line debate. I just think you should take some time to ingest what Jaehwon and I have said – we are both coming from a good place.
There’s a small typo in the very first ten words, but other than that, it’s word for word with a few name swaps.
Akrypti,
The memory defense was what Kavya Viswanathan used for a long time with her work, and Viswanathan still maintains that it was unintentional, although she has since apologized. Look how long that passage is…86 words, according to Larry. Is it really beyond a reasonable doubt that he didn’t copy it? Even if it were unintentional, I would think that the proper response would be to apologize and take it down.
In any case, I like Larry’s response. William, since it is word for word the same, why not just take it down and agree to talk to Jin? That’s what I was asking you to arrange yesterday, and that’s what Jin was trying to arrange when she tried to contact you.
William, as in the voicemail I’ve left you and the multiple emails I’ve sent you along with the text messages ALL asking for you to take down MY words that you plagiarized to no avail – please call me. I’ve already emailed you multiple times regarding this matter. Since you have also filtered anything I say on your site (positive or not) I can’t write on it. It doesn’t matter to me you use your site as a marketing ploy or to be a ‘hero’ to your followers. I am concerned about your ethics, and want to civilly discuss with you about your actions (copying) and your inactions (evasion). I want to be ‘diplomatic’ about all this, but I’ve just been ‘bottom-lining’ it for you. I’d really appreciate a response. It’s been days. You need to start following what you preach. Thanks.
Yeah, that doesn’t look like fair use to me. Anyways, thanks Jin for proving what I figured out about Will all along.
William,
The LONGER you leave MY words on your site, the longer ppl will actually believe that those are your words when they are not. I do not like resorting to Byron’s page here to communicate with you (but I don’t know where else to turn, as you haven’t responded to any of my communications for days).
If you really believe you did NOTHING wrong, the you can direct your readers here and have them post their own opinions. If you don’t do that, you are acknowledging that you did indeed plagiarize b/c you don’t want to be perceived as unethical. Is it because you know you did wrong? Even if that was the case, why don’t you just take down MY WORDS that you put up on your site? (as I’ve asked many many times)
Again, you are in hiding. You are not actualizing moral ethics. So please stop preaching it. Please simply do not plagiaraize and own up to your actions. I had a lot of respect for your activism efforts (even though I disagree with some methods). I’ve lost that respect a lot, especially in this not following what you preach (re: ethics, calling you out of your ‘full of shit’ aspect, being evasive with communication).
I suppose this issue is especially important to me because I work in compliance and the regulatory realm, so when legalities are involved it raises red flags (on micro and macro levels).
I’ve asked you to contact me the moment it was on your site. You continue not to do so. Why not simply confront the issue with its source instead of beating around the bush with other evasive measures? This could have all been avoided had you taken down MY words initially and/or responded to me to talk this matter out.
William,
It’s been about 48 hours since this was first brought to your attention. The blogosphere is asking for you to take it down and apologize. It’s even on the 44s, where you first conceptualized your idea for an ethics class. It’s not right for you to take someone else’s words and claim it as your own.
Even your sensei has said he has had problems with people plagiarizing from him.
Are you going to take it down?
Please take Larry’s advice. Call Jin and take it down. It’s the ethical thing to do. As Larry says, we don’t have to have any hard feelings, but you have to remove her words from your site.
William,
I really do not want to take litigious actions:
1) for copyright infringement; and
2) against ABC (in direct association with BAM) for having an unethical instructor that teaches ethics which equates to false endorsement against its own ethical teachings/principles.
The factual proof to your blatant plagiarism is as follows:
1) I wrote it FIRST (and you copied it nearly verbatim AFTER-the-fact); and
2) Your writing style historically completely conflicts with my use of words/ideas.
This is not a threat. I’m simply urging you to delete MY words you plagiarized and to call me to discuss. Please don’t motivate me to tell my I.P. specialist attorneys to send a cease-and-decist letter. Let’s not make this a bigger issue than it already is simply due to your evasion to the source.
You have all my contact info to put this to an end. And to own up to your actions. Like I’ve previously mentioned in emails, evading the issue won’t make it go away nor does it correct it nor does it evince positive leadership behavior. So why not just talk to me?
If you believe you were in fact ethical defend yourself OR you can do a survey and present the facts or point your readers here to voice their own opinions. You preach that you don’t like when people simply throw opinions with no solution. I’ve not only offered solutions but have offered you several options as well.
Like I said, litigious action here may be warranted but I do not want to resort to that.
Jin, are you seriously call upon lawyers for this? I don’t even think an injunction, if you could get one, would warrant this scenario. Perhaps we should just chalk all this up to a testament of how big of a dick Will is.
William,
You have also once posted this:
“Criticism without solutions. It’s easy to criticize others’ approaches to various problems However, it’s VERY DIFFICULT to actually propose a solution of your own. (example: my website, betterasianman.com, shows you honestly and sincerely, the approach that I took to address my own social and sexual anxiety. This is an approach that is always criticized.) Also, criticizing other people’s solutions is a one-way communication. You go in, you give your two cents, and then you’re out. Your ego is fully protected at every step of the way. However, when you provide your own solution, your ego is no longer protected, and your solution is open to scrutiny. This is why, when I asked the activists on the Fighting 44’s, who disapproved of my choice of solution to my problem (i.e, taking the ABCs of Attraction bootcamp in order to overcome my social and sexual anxiety), only 3 brave individuals stepped forward to TRY to suggest alternatives. The others, often the ones with the most vocal disapproval, didn’t even try. Their “criticism without solutions” did however, serve one purpose very efficiently: it allowed their egos to be completely protected.”
Then now you go against your exact teachings even here (you go against it in MANY respects:
1) I may have offered criticism, but have also offered solutions AND several options;
2) Is your ego no longer protected? Even *I* wanted to protect your ego when I first emailed you to tell you to simply take down MY wording;
3) Your website does NOT “honestly and sincerely” demonstrate how you overcome your anxiety. This is because even long AFTER your bootcamp and to this day you still have insecurity issues I’ve experienced firsthand; Also, for you to preach about ‘relationships’ when you’re not exactly good at it is also hypocritical. I’d like to quote YOU on this “If you think I’m full of shit then” tell me. So here I am confronting you in many respects (phone, email, blogs, internet, texts, voicemails etc) and I get exactly what you criticized OTHERS for doing. The only marked difference is I’ve trued contacting you MULTIPLE ways, only to be completely evaded;
4) You claim above only 3 ppl stepped up to speak up; thing is MANY people (women especially) have spoken up; however you chose not to even LISTEN to them. You hear but don’t listen and dismiss them by saying something along the lines of “thank you for your opinion” – that doesn’t really resolve anything when you’re not open to actual changes;
5) You primarily only post positive feedback to make yourself look better; it’s tough to “learn” or be “open-minded” when you do that;
I could go on. Shall I? Though I’d really rather simply discuss this. Or put MY thoughts on your BAM site, but after you plagiarized (to protect yourself) you have filtered everything from me so you see it first before it gets posted – something is inherently wrong there or proves you have something to hide and are against freedom of speech when opinions are voiced;
I’ve got more, but this is not supposed to be an attack (and I don’t mean it to nor want it to). You need to come to your own defense.
All comments on William’s site says “awaiting moderation” — that is so he can either change it or NOT post it up at all because he has something to hide! Why can only positive reinforcement comments be put up? William, you have a big ego as is, do you really continuously need that “external validation” (btw…those were my words I used when I spoke to you a while back about asking why you sought so much external validation, and then voila! you now use that as a topic). That is fine – What I’m against now is that you have plagiarized not only my ideas, but my entire wording on my ideas and opinions.
There are so many levels of shadiness here.
William,
Plagiarism is wrong. Plagiarism is Stealing. Just simply remove it. As men, we only have our integrity, honor and word. The longer you leave it up, the more it deteriorates. And you call yourself a pickup artist? What other things have you plagiarized or “stole”…..
RJ
I am suprised to learn that Jin is a female..
Jin, I am curious, how did you know William and for how long?
I don’t know William, but based on his website, all he’s trying to do is help asian men to be more successful with women and I don’t think he’s doing it for the money.
Jin, do you know alot of asian guys? Do you get approach by asian guys at all?
That’s why what William is doing is great. he’s inspiring other asian guys to be more assertive in the social scene.
Bow,
It doesn’t matter how long they know each other or to what extend. That isn’t of importance. The point is that William Plagiarized a text, which is Stealing. Do you questions, a robber how long has he known his victim before robs them?
In addition, regardless of if it was for monetary gains or not it’s still stealing! If someone steals an iPod, but doesn’t sell it for a profit, does that make it alright? Stealing is Stealing.
Regardless if Jin knows a lot of Asian men or not is not the point, nor if she gets approach by Asian men. By asking if Jin gets approached by Asian Men, you’re making the assertion that she doesn’t. Bow, you attack the argument, not the person. You’re clearly an idiot or a noob.
It doesn’t matter if William inspires others are not, or if he’s great or not. He has committed plagiarism, which in nearly all intellectual establishments would be grounds for removal. The fact that he plagiarized, is wrong and it’s stealing. He needs to own up to it, remove it and issue an apology.
Bow, How do you know that he didn’t plagiarized his other texts, which you say inspires others? Perhaps he stole those too?
RJ
…and Yes, Jin gets approached by Men of all races.
RJ,
You need to chill. I am asking Jin, not you. My quesion is about asian guys, I don’t give a shit about other races. I like the fact that he’s out there helping asian brothers, so he got my back.
Bow,
It’s apparent that you never had your ideas or words taken away from you. Until you do, you wouldn’t understand. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad he’s out there helping other Asian brothers be more assertive in the dating scene, but there’s a right way and wrong way in doing it. Stealing someone else’s words to play it off as your own is the WRONG way. It is FRAUD.
It’s like saying John Doe gives to the children, but he does it by stealing from the elderly. Just because he gives to the children doesn’t means his method is right. It’s still Stealing.
Especially, when William is out helping others, he should and needs to have higher standards.
RJ
…btw, I’m glad to know that you got the back of a Thief, Plagiarizer, and Fraud.
Bow,
You wrote: “My quesion is about asian guys, I don’t give a shit about other races. I like the fact that he’s out there helping asian brothers, so he got my back.”
I think you should care about everyone. But your position is your prerogative.
However, while we’re talking about Asian guys, let’s talk about Asian women too. He plagiarized the words of an Asian woman–took her words and is now using them on his for-profit site. Who is going to watch this Asian woman’s back, especially since there’s a black-and-white moral and ethical issue at stake? For all the talk about “be the man of her dreams,” you guys sure ain’t acting like men.
I was giving you PUA groupies the benefit of the doubt before, but it really bothers me that you refuse to take a stand based on morals or ethics. What do you people stand for?
The matter at hand was brought to the attention of ABC – http://www.abcofattraction.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1879&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=20. And this is the response of his “people” is:
“Who the FUCK cares.
End of ongoing discussion and back to sexy ladies shaking them thangs.”
Wow. William. You have trained them well to think like that. Very mature. You all sound like much “better asian men” now. Oh the irony.
And to also have the motto “to get the woman of your dreams, be the man of hers” — I know soo many women who LOVES a man who lies, steals and plagiarizes. That is exactly what women want. You guys are on the right track!
And like I previously said, to have a boy (yes, Will is no longer a man since he can’t even man up and defend himself) teach ethics but can’t practice what he preaches is unethical. Have a code of ethics with such pride, yet cannot follow those exact codes.
To have APB (Will’s “master”) disprove of plagiarism himself, and then have APBs ethics instructor blatantly plagiarize and evade the issue completely evinces William’s core character right there. APB, I agree that people should not plagiarize anyone’s work or words. This is an ethical matter.
William, become a man and just take out the plagiarism already. I initially wrote what you plagiarized directed TO you as advice, how dare you go ahead copy it and then use my advice verbatim to in turn advise Byron who already agrees with me.
There are too many ironies here to count.
Bow,
Since you directed this at me. I’ll respond. I’ve known Will for nearly a year. And your other question, I get approached by Asian guys a hell of a lot. And by other races as well. Getting “picked up” though is not the issue here.
The issue at hand is plagiarism and how it pertains to ethics. I value my words.
Let’s say you were a musical composer. And you love music. And you love writing music. It may not be the greatest but it brings you pride. You hear a song, NOTE for NOTE, and then someone claims that they wrote it after you had it published on CD by the music industry first. I think because you value your song, wouldn’t you be a bit upset that someone STOLE your song NOTE for NOTE?
That is the matter at hand. We simply want to address the ethical issue and plagiarism.
Movement in the social scene is fine and dandy. But the issue here is simple: Stealing words verbatim and taking full credit for it.
Since the original article that started this argument of McCain-Obama proportions talked about BJJ and being a PUA, let’s try to explain things this way, eh?
Helio Gracie has often been credited for creating BJJ–correct me if I’m wrong–as a way to adapt jujutsu for his small frame. One can say that there are very many similarities between the two, and that to those not in the know regarding martial arts, they may look identical. The Gracies, however, would have you believe that their style is a legitimate other style…BUT do acknowledge the roots. Wander into any random BJJ gym and it would not be uncommon to see the flags of both Brazil and Japan hanging on the wall, without a single Japanese person in sight.
Likewise, to those not in the know, they may see the words that William used and think that they are his. The comment he wrote is almost identical to that of Jin, but he changed it as a way to adapt Jin’s words to his own, well, small frame in the manner of Helio Gracie. And, of course, he probably would argue that they are his, a legitimate comment of his own. The difference here is that while the Gracies acknowledge the Japanese contribution to their art…William does not with Jin.
It’s quite sad, actually. I do not know anything about William, but I do know that one does not pick up girls by using someone else’s line. Women want a man, not a xerox machine.
In the end, I don’t know much about BJJ, being a PUA or what it exactly it means when someone steals someone else’s words on the internet (as opposed to print copy), but I do know this…when the copycat, (Helio Gracie of BJJ) faced the original, Masahiko Kimura, practitioner of Judo), Masahiko Kimura kicked Gracie’s a–.
Jin
Thanks for responding. I asked because a lot of my asian friends are so shy when it come to approaching women. It makes me happy that there are guys like APB and William providing a service to help out asian brothers that need help. That’s all.
The reason why I said I don’t care about other races hitting on you cuz I am pretty sure it’s a yes. I see other races hit on asian girls all the time, so nothing new to me. That’s great that there are asian guys hitting on you ..hehe…
Regarding whether William plagiarizes or not, if he did, it’s wrong and he should own up to it. As I said before, what William is doing inspires other asian guys to be more assertive in meeting women, which is great.
Bow:
You wrote: “Regarding whether William plagiarizes or not, if he did, it’s wrong and he should own up to it. ”
Thanks. That’s actually all anyone was saying. Everything else is irrelevant. Most people (not me, but we could get into that later) support the efforts that William makes as he makes them, but with regards to taking Jin’s words and claiming them as his own, he needs to correct that and apologize.
There’s a lot at stake here, man. The blogosphere relies on the integrity of its participants, and so far we’ve all looked out for one another with regards to protecting each others privacy and intellectual property. This is the first time where the editor of a big Asian American website has compromised universally accepted rules of fairness and usage on the web. William needs to make it right, and those around him need to tell him. We need to remain a society of rules, fairness, and security.
These pua’s turned this into some joke on their site (including Will). Will turned this into another marketing logistical ploy by putting up a pretentious acknowledgement after editing my comment to his liking. Goes to show how it will take them two dozen more years until they may actually become “better asian men” — Good luck finding the “woman of your dreams” because with the way things are handled, and the way the overinflated egos are manifested, they’ll never become the man of her dreams.
Jin,
The disingenuousness is the part that bothers me most. Having invested many hours into the relationship and taking him at his word, it was extremely disheartening to see William, the so-called “Better Asian Man,” the head teacher of the ABCs of Attraction’s Ethics Course, throw us all under the bus like this. Stealing, lying, and cheating…he didn’t just do it to you, he did it to all of the participants in the AA blogosphere. It’s also clear that there’s no real remorse here. Well, as I’ve always said, you can’t moralize feeling, just action.
He’s since taken it down, which I guess is all we really wanted. It would be pretty accurate however to say that all honest people who had relationships with William have had those relationships altered because of this incident.
Jin,
I have not edited a single character from your comment.
-William
William,
Sure. And yet you are not in denial of anything else above that ppl have said about you. That comment you just wrote just evinces how selfish you are. And thank you very much for the insincere and pretentious acknowledgement on your site. No sincerity in the non-existent apology. Instead, you mock plagiarism on the ABC site. For a person who is unethical to teach ethics surely makes me realize your core now. And I think in light of all this, I think a lot of people have realize who you really are now. You can continue to feed your overinflated egocentric self. When you act in such way, you will never be able to meet the woman of your dreams because she will always leave you. NO woman will ever want a man that can’t even be honest with himself and with others. So if you find a person that desires a man that is dishonest, a thief, a liar and a plagiarist – you would have found a match made in heaven.
You have not posted comments that were written on your site to protect yourself. Comments that direct to who you REALLY are. This means you just want positive and superficial comments on your site to protect your own ego. And your strategic logistical acknowledgement is pretentious. No wonder you can’t hold REAL friendships or relationships in real life.
This all sounds harsh, but I’m just being honest.
jaehwan , you wrote, “We could even do a podcast. I won’t edit his ideas.”
Why would you need to write that you “edit his ideas”? You won’t but you can? …. like you do at the F44s? Wouldn’t that which is wrong stand on its own merit without you changing it? Wouldn’t an intelligent response from a F44 “sensei” be enough to conter that which is wrong? I guess not. You have to edit other people’s words to prove a point. So who’s the shadier one between you and Will eh? The one who copied a benign response or the one who goes in and changes the text to prove a point? Those who live in glass houses………
william needs to man up and own up to his mistake. how can one teach about ethics when they dont give credit where credit is due? and how can u even do this to a friend? clearly u have no morals. better asian man?! HA please
It’s wrong what happened but comparing this issue with other examples bothers me. What was stolen is a general idea, not intellectual property that warrants something like a copyright or patent.
Granted, the written word falls into the same category but this is the internet we’re talking about where ideas aren’t protected as if they were on printed paper.
Also, this doesn’t automatically void out what William is basically standing for. Sure, while it might be morally bankrupt, his idea of using PUA to help many Asian men out there is commendable.
I think people are just using this issue to void his whole argument. You were looking for an opening and once you found it, you drove a train through it.
Rob,
You nailed it. jaewhan’s first thread he ever started on the F44s was a long anti-PUA thread. He befriended Will falsely agreeing to some minor points only to later try and screw him over over something relatively petty just to bolster his worldview which is explicitly against anything relating to “PUA”. IMO, that’s more morally bankrupt than Will’s petty offense.
OVCP (yeah, I know who you are, OctaGoof),
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
a) I’ve never edited anyone’s ideas. Ever, either here or on the 44s, text or voice. If I have done this, let me know. That’s what I was saying. Most podcasts are edited to a certain degree, so I was saying that I wouldn’t. Is this somehow…bad? You lost me. You probably lost everyone.
I think BlocktheBox once edited your comments (or was it APB’s?) on the 44s by changing them into French through a Google translator. That was funny–you have to admit it. I was laughing for weeks. But with the one exception of a dude who was putting out personal comments (and for who I removed one sentence), I’ve never edited your comments or anyone else’s.
b) How is plagiarism “something relatively petty?” It could get one kicked out of college, so I’m not seeing how you PUA groupies keep saying it’s no big deal. It’s a huge deal.
Rob,
We’re not talking about legal matters–though it could well be. We’re talking ethics. It’s unethical.
I don’t think that Jaehwan “befriended Will falsely agreeing to the minor points” and then intentionally try to screw him over in any way. I think Jaehwan disagreed with PUA methodology and wanted to help Will get better without having to resort to the specific PUA/ABC methodology. Will is a good person that has gone astray with some of the ABC tactics/methodology he was taught. I think we’re all different opinions re: ABC/PUA methods and I think the results of the ABC regimen can have negative affects.
But I think most of us want to make a difference in the AA community better themselves – we just ALL have different ways and methods about going about doing so. I think because of these differing opinions, we’re all slowly going against the other. It’s a “reactive” vs “proactive” measure which I know I’m guilty of too.
And this whole issue arose due to an ethical issue. Plagiarism is an ethical issue. No one has any malicious intent here (even the plagiarizer) however, it’s important to be ethical and lead a good example. We’re allowed to make mistakes but we should own up to our mistakes when the situation is brought to light. Ethics and integrity is important especially if one preaches it.
William,
I’m glad you’re reading this.
Man, you threw us all under the bus. We trusted you, we gave you our time, and you threw us under the bus. I don’t know what else to say.
And lest you seek to stroke your ego by getting validation from your PUA groupies, I’m not the only one who feels this way.
Again, I never said it wasn’t unethical. I said that you can’t connect this issue with his whole idea that PUA will help Asian men.
You’re using this point to completely invalidate his other ideas.
We were on the topic of banana picking in South America and spent 3 hours talking about the history, prices, trade, and health of bananas in Brazil and since I said they were first cultivated there in 1793 when it was actually 1794, you chimed in with:
“I looked it up and it says that it was 1794, you don’t know anything about bananas!”
Rob,
I don’t think I invalidated any of his other ideas. Did I?
I’m talking about ethics. I’m talking about him telling me to my face that he was trying to become a better person and that he was once trapped by dishonesty but now he’s totally honest. You can read his site here. I’m talking about me talking to him on the phone and him refusing to take something off his site that was clearly plagiarized. I’m talking about him taking five days to remove something that never should’ve been there to begin with.
Yes, I’m pissed off. After putting hours and faith in him, I have a right to be.
I don’t think we’ve even mentioned any of his other ideas–except for ethics. If I did, feel free to correct me.
It’s not what was said per se but rather the implication. This goes for Jin as well. What I got was that because he held himself to be a moral compass for his students, this issue reflects on putting his words into practice.
He said that people can use the skills to do whatever they please be it for good or bad reasons. Since he didn’t practice what he said he would doesn’t mean that his students aren’t taking his “do what you will” statement to heart.
It could very well be that all his students have followed his preachings even though he himself has not.
Rob,
Go to the ABCs of Attraction Community forum, and judge for yourself what his students are taking from him.
william – just take down the words and talk to jin in private (email, text, phone whatever). it’s word for word minus a few names and even the style of writing is the same. let’s just be mature and end this stupid feud. it’s really silly that even the hyphens are present in your version of the comment…. it’s pretty ridiculous and shameful. let’s just let this go.
can’t we all just get along? without taking credit for things that don’t belong to us?
This entire issue–which should have been dealt with relative ease– quickly escalated and turned into a train wreck.
Worse still, it prompted a nasty spat between different parties that extended to other websites like the F44s and BAM.
Asian Americans certainly like to fight among ourselves (like crabs in a bucket).
But when it comes to fighting the “enemy”? Not so much….
I agree to a certain extent that this has gotten a little out of hand. We’re starting to attack each other. There is no need for attack. I don’t want us to stray away from the core issue: morality, integrity and doing what’s best for the greater good as AA community. So William was unethical, ‘half-azardly’ acknowledged. Now the question goes, what is going to be done NEXT to prevent this from occurring again?? Though there’s no way to control what an individual does, we need to work together to bring awareness to ensure proper ethics are followed. Organizational collaberation without attack.
I mean I do wish this was resolved sooner – the longer the issue was up, the more problems snowballed. But it is an important ethical issue at hand – It doesn’t help that the perpetrator mocks the situation. This whole situation needs to bring light to how we can be better and how the perpetrator can now work on improving the ‘system’ but he can’t do that until he improves HIMSELF.
Oh, and if someone is going to come to William’s “mature” response – simply take a look at ABC forum, and where he plagiarised. He DID NOT take down the words he blatantly plagiarized. Instead, he changed the name from “William” to “Wet Pussy” who wrote the words: http://www.betterasianman.com/blog/?p=418#comments. You tell me that this is a good leader, good ethics instructor. This is why the situation has gotten more out of hand. – HE MOCKS ethics and doesn’t even take his wrong actions seriously. It’s not progressing anywhere with these types of actions.
Larry,
I agree we need to support each other. But we also need standards.
Check out the link that Jin left. He still hasn’t apologized. Lying, cheating, stealing. I don’t think anyone should get a pass on that, Asian or not.
B.
And William not only changed the author to “wet pussy”, the guy changed the DATE when it was posted too. What kind of half-ass egocentric acknowledgment if he’s gonna pull these stunts? (It’s no wonder the ABC negative message can be perpetuated – this is their instructor that is ‘guiding’ them).
Here it is before he does another change:
“On 11.02.08 wet pussy wrote these pithy words:
….
I’m sure we can go back and forth arguing/disagreeing all day about what Martyr has written — line for line, word for word — but again, that may be fruitless. That’s why I’m not arguing with you on every single matter as you’re doing. Natural social adaptation does not entail literal translations nor does it entail arguing as if we’re in a line-by-line debate. I just think you should take some time to ingest what Martyr and I have said– we are both coming from a good place.
….
~*Wet Pussy*~”
It’s the internet and completely unregulated so I find it pretty annoying people would hold it out as being place where everyone is violating some type of “law.”
It’s the badlands of discussion.
That being said, I think the negative onus has changed from William to Jin. I mean, now it just sounds like sour grapes. If someone steals from me, I’m going to say “you stole.” Now, if I’m able to act on it and punish them, I would. However, if I can’t, you’re not going to catch me constantly screaming about it.
The more time goes on, the more I get the feeling Asian Americans are nothing more than boys and girls rather as men and women.
Yeah Rob, it’s just like if you buy a computer off of ebay. If you send the money, and the guy doesn’t send you the computer, you shouldn’t complain, because all the rules are totally different on the unregulated internet.
Rob:
It’s nice to know that *I’m* now the wrong here. Just because I speak up about the plagiarism issue and the issue of immaturity level of what transpired. It’s *MY* fault. Sure – that’s quite logical. Riiiight. Because what William did was now perfectly fine. So now it’s my fault? Are we all going to do this whole fingerpointing game? There’s no need for it. This would have ended if it didn’t happen to being with. OR if it was taken down right away after the plagiarism was pointed out. THAT fact wasn’t even supposed to be public when I emailed him personally (without threat) simply as a REQUEST for it to be taken down. So don’t turn this around to be a blame game here.
Don’t mind Rob and his hard on for Will. I feel it’s a legitimate complaint. And if we are going to play by internet “rules” then the justice should be something akin to when YTMND jumped all over ebaumsworld.
Jaehwan: I looked at the BAM site. That comment seems to have been taken down.
I agree with your point about standards. However, if people believe that William’s plagiarism is beyond the pale and he doesn’t resolve it with Jin to her satisfaction, then it would be better for *everyone else* to move on and simply ignore him or the BAM site. Ultimately, this is between William and Jin.
Other people should get on with their lives. In the bigger picture, there are more important issues than the world of pick-up artists or dispensing dating advice.
It’s apparent that some people are more interested in deriving a warped enjoyment over this “mini-scandal” than any concern for integrity or honesty–their piety notwithstanding.
There are examples of this behavior on the Fighting44s forum, where people who have *no personal stake* in this issue or even in the Asian American community/activism are reveling with a voyeuristic glee.
Hi Larry,
You’re totally right about the voyeuristic glee from people who aren’t activists. I guess it’s the way of the web, the anonymous internet.
If he removed it, I agree that we should move on then.
We’ve got a big election coming up in less than 24 hours. Earlier today, I posted up an article about politics in the Web 2.0 age.
Since activism is also a real-time activity, maybe we can use Web 2.0 technology to help activism. That’s something useful. I’ve had my own ideas, though I probably need to get more tech savvy.
I’;ve decided to take a bootcamp with APB. Once I am done with the bootmcap, I will pickup Jin.
Larry, does it help you to sleep at night to convince yourself that you’re better than everyone?
RE: Haha
Do you always hide like a punk behind that screen name?
Larry, I know you are but what am I?
I must admit, Larry, hahahah or whatever has a point. Your comment did come off a bit condescending.
re: zzzang
Yeah. Next time, I’ll be cruder and more blunt so that even lil’ punks like HaHa can appreciate the message.
Fact is, William did take it down in 5 days. Maybe it wasn’t as fast as you wanted, but he did do it. Yet, Jin keeps harpin’ on about how its still up as evidence by the above posts. So who’s fanning the flames? Jin, you need to take responsibility for YOUR actions.
And who fanned the flames at the 44s? Note the title changed on Williams thread instead of starting a new thread at the 44s. I think its hypocritical of jaewhan to allow that type of behavior when he’s a mod. Silence is complicity. Then again, he wasn’t so silent. After Will took it down, jaewhan has the gall to ask Will to apologize AND step down from BAM. What next? Ask that his dick be cut off too? Get real.
It’s apparent to me, its not about plagarism as it was quite petty…. over some meaningless crap someone posted. It was about looking for ONE little thing wrong and blowing it up and using it to discredit one person and extending it to everyone he associates with. Just a bunch of self-professed intahllecchualz confusing cause and effect to prove their false presumptions. That’s the real wrong. That’s how hate manifests itself.
It’s like the people who crucified Jesus. It was just a carpenter going around to all the hoes and tax collectors saying that God was his dad. If you disagree, then move on with your life. but petty losers who have much vested into their worldview has to force it on others and instead of giving an intelligent response to Jesus’ claims, they killed him. But in the end, he rose from the dead & done broke outta da tomb & sayin’ that which not need to be said, “See I told ya God was mah dad!!” and … oh well… fuck you muthafuccahs!! LOL
OVCP:
Facts: William took it down, then RE-Posted it as indicated above to author “Wet Pussy” instead of William. Same words.
Anyway, he put it down again now. That’s all I wanted in the first place. Then when it got posted again, I admit I was pretty livid to see the disrespect of “wet pussy” as the new author.
Let me be blunt about this whole matter. This was initially an ethics issue. It should have been taken down and should have STAYED down, not put back up. But now that’s it’s down for a second time – all I hope now is that it stays down.
Truthfully, this should have remained bwtn William and me when I tried to contact him several times to take it down before it became this public spectacle. No one here is CLAIMING to be “intahllecchualz ” so let’s not breed hate and resort to name calling here. This should have been resolved a lot sooner. I never intended it to accelerate to this capacity. And now it’s simply getting a little out of hand. We’re blameshifting left and right and it’s not getting anywhere.
Fine. The comment is down. That’s what I wanted, so right now I’m fine with it. And I hope that it doesn’t happen again – and certain people should stop mocking the plagiarism issue. It needn’t manifest any more hate or blame. The issue should have remained focused on the integrity aspect. We’re all in this AA community together and somehow things morphed beyond what it needed to.
Larry:
Actually, your comment was pretty self-righteous and condescending. Short of being a mind-reader, you really have no way of knowing whether anyone is speaking out of “concern for integrity or honesty,” and I think it’s pretty high-and-mighty of you to decide that they don’t even have a stake at all in the Asian American community.
Larry,
Great post.
Jaeswan – you should listen to Larry more often, otherwise, you’d drag this on forever, which have nothing to do with the issue.
This is turning into a joke…Can’t wait for you to post about dating advice…Oh please, leave that to APB ok….
OctaGoober,
I could respond to you (I know you love my snappy 44s style humor which is why you always emerge with your gooberisms), but William’s copied post is gone, so I’m putting this behind me for now. I’m sure you’ll be around to add your comments on other threads though.
F.H. and zzzang:
Larry was talking more about activists. When he says no stake in the community, I think he’s talking about action/leadership/etc. The 44s isn’t an activist site, and it’s assumed that most of the people there aren’t activists. I think that was what he was describing. There’s nothing wrong with being a non-activist, but there’s usually a different mindset involved.
Anyway, no need to sweat over particulars. Water under the bridge! We’re all friends here, or we all can be. (Even OctaGoob!) I can tell that everyone here means well (with the possible exception of Octa, though even he may come around.). The purpose of bigWOWO is to find activists and to help us help one another and to help Asian Americans. It doesn’t always work (as you all can see with the actions that inspired these 70 comments…haha…), but the opportunity is here. Like me, Larry likes to call in to talk action with activists, so if there is any desire to talk stuff over and to plan action steps, or if you all just want to talk, we’ll set that up. Remember, we’re all on the same team, and activists have to take it to the next level if we have any hope. We need each over.
Now that the plagiarism incident is over (and let me just say that I still respect William for what he’s done with Fallout), I think I personally need a break from this particular incident, but y’all feel free to continue talking. Thanks again for coming here, and I hope to see you on other threads.
Jaehwan, first I don’t know where you’re deriving that meaning from Larry’s words. Second, I don’t care what he meant because the point of matter is that he was condescending to people he doesn’t even know. If he’s really as self righteous as he made himself out to be in that post above I don’t see how he can criticize the affairs and actions of others on business that’s none of his concern.
Guys,
Everything written in this message thread is 100% correct, except for 1 thing: I neither created the author “wet pussy,” nor did I write that comment. I did, however, approve that comment from the moderation queue.
-William
I meant to say “everything written in this message thread to describe me is 100% correct”.
Understood. It’s taken down now. Let’s all move on without the nonsense that’s transpired.
zzzang:
I actually have something to say regarding the topic of condescension, but I have to be somewhere in a few minutes. So if it’s cool, I’ll address this in the next two or three days. Talk to you all soon. Go out and vote!
B.
F.H. and zzzang:
Do you honestly believe that most people on the F44s who were reveling in this issue give a damn about Jin, William, or the plagiarism issue? You both ain’t that naive, are you?
Bottom line: Let Jin, William, (and maybe Jaehwan) handle this problem. They’re the only people that were directly involved in it.
All the voyeurs should find something better to do like gawking at car wrecks. Right now, they’re only stirring the pot and inflaming the problem–like kids egging on a schoolyard fight.
http://ihatebetterasianman.blogspot.com/
’nuff said.
Larry:
Regardless of their intentions, you can only be responsible for your own actions. Do you honestly believe that you’re any better than the people you are so quick to judge, considering your words and attitude here?
You don’t know anything about them. You seem to be very self-satisfied and giving yourself a mental pat on the back for being somehow “above” them. Look in the mirror.
Wow. I left this alone for like…4 days and so much has happened.
Larry is right – I cannot agree with him more, most people on the F44′s don’t give a damn about the individual, they’re simply outright against anything that suggests the slightest bit of female sexualization and objectification.
Of course there is nothing wrong with their views, the problem is this: their simply opposing William because he is a PUA – and this leads them to be against him regardless of whatever he thinks – regardless of any of the good steps he is taking.
Almost everyone’s reactions to this stems from their emotion of quietly accepting him – but with the thought that if he does anything that you don’t like you will call him on it. It’s like highschool drama – It’s like the annoying parent at your child’s recreational sports game – It’s like someone who isn’t quite in touch with the real picture.
As much as I may believe that going public was the right course of action on this, I think that the public perception of what we had worked towards has now all dropped down into crap.
I think we actually mentioned this on the last teleconference – people flock to the things that are “bad” and comment away – yet no one has anything to say on all the “good” that happens.
This conversation is not for anyone but Jin, William and Jaehwan to be involved in – As they’re the only parties directly involved with what has happened.
I’m afraid that picking up the pieces from this will be tough.
I question if we even should.
Quite honestly, I feel like this it is out of our control.
Larry, that’s not the point. Whether or not those 44 people care about the plagiarism doesn’t matter. We’re talking about you. Like F.H. said you were painting yourself as being “above” it all.
You talk about there being more important issues to be concerned about, yet I’m pretty damn sure you participated in some voyeurism of your own. What, did you have 5-10 minutes to kill while you were out saving the world?
Larry, you’re just an amazing human being. The universe is so lucky to have your even-minded brilliance and your ability to call people li’l punks when they disagree with you. You’re not at all condescending.
Guys Please!
Lets not start something over someone getting riled-up over the tone of Larry’s comments. Cause really – it was clear, and he agreed he came of condescending.
There is no need to find the one thing wrong about Larry – unless he himself is looking for it. We don’t have to provoke the hate anymore.
Both of you are at fault for letting it continue/starting it – This is a simple thing, so lets move on.
Haha~, quite honestly, you came of even more condescending than Larry did.
Larry, I don’t know why you let this get to you – We must remember how people act, especially in the anonymous realm of the internet.
Zzzang, have you taken a look at the PUA thread now on the 44′s? Its actually entitled “Better Asian Man is an Unethical Wet Pussy” Its not an PUA or plagerism discussion, its basically everyone there professing a profound hate for William – and letting it out because this news triggered it.
Larry has spent no time taking actions that would provoke someone into expressing their hate for William – Early on he has expressed that he thinks the issue would provide too much public embarassment for him.
We’ve got no need for this here. Lets keep our lives moving.
F.H, zzzang, hahaha:
Let it go.
BTW, are you three all Asian American activists? Next time we have a teleconference, why don’t you call in? We can discuss this issue and other things pertinent to the Asian American community–out in the open. It sure as hell beats hiding behind anonymous screen names.
Jason:
Larry, didn’t own up to anything. He just misdirected everything.
Larry:
You’re such a self righteous ass even in defeat.
Zzzang,
he does, it just reads really bitter – which is his fault.
http://www.bigwowo.com/2008/10/intellectual-property-on-the-web/#comment-369
And as much as I appreciate you opinion of Larry,
There is no reason to blow this up in the same context that this thread has done for William.
I feel like 90% of the conversation in this thread, and related threads on associated sites are filled with messages expressing hate. And Zzzang [Not to focus on you], you could seriously express yourself outside of a negative tone.
“You’re such a self righteous ass even in defeat.”
Can read: I don’t care a damn thing about what you say, elitist.
When you could say something along the lines of:
“I’d like to reiterate, that your reply to Haha’s comment was condescending – I don’t think that you should have done so.”
Which reads: I don’t think you took the right approach.
Key Difference: one is fueled with emotion, the other is fueled with Logic.
We have no reason to fight your ego, that’s why we’re asking you to let it go.
If you want Larry to own up to it, it’s really easy to ask for an apology.
I think Larry decided to put this behind him. Is something keeping you from doing the same?
F.H. – he’s not judging that quickly – you could spend countless hours of silly arguments like such on the F44′s. It seems as such to me: As passionate as the people seem, there are often way too many fights that start as a difference between ideologies that end that continue as long as the two parties continue to call each other names. I think you may be making assumptions, about Larry that you do not quite understand. I feel like your writing is not intended to accuse Larry of anything, but to point it out to him. The problem is, you keep using “you” – when you put things outside of the second-person context it’s a little bit easier to read on the receiving end.
Haha~, By your name, its obvious that you’re not here to own up to your words. You’re only intent was to ridicule Larry. Also, you’re at as much fault as Larry is because of his approach to the subject. Correct me if I am wrong — seriously. If you do so, I fully expect you to not accuse me of anything.
And I’d love to have more people in the teleconference! So you guys should consider.
Haha~, Apologies, I see you’ve made a comment earlier in the thread. Now, I’m curious as to why you use that name.
Jason:
I’m not quite sure how you think I’m assuming things about Larry. I’m reading his words, which sound condescending and holier-than-thou regarding people he’s never met outside of the internet. Also, if you have a problem with the way things are done somewhere, it solves no problems (and is the adult version of playground gossip and smack-talk) to run somewhere else to vent your dissatisfaction. So it’s rich to condescend to others saying they’re acting like children when one’s own actions are no better.
zzzang et al.:
Since this is Jaehwan’s site and out of respect for him, let’s just drop this bickering. And I was serious about that invitation for the teleconference. If you all are Asian American activists, I (and probably the others in our group) would like to hear your take on the issues that affect our community.
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