Frank Chin on “Names”

2008 October 29
by jaehwan

Frank Chin

I received the following e-mail from Frank Chin, and he asked me to post it:

To: Byron Wong
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 7:52:17 AM
Subject:

Byron

Why haven’t you changed your Greek name to an Asian name? It’s been years. If you’re Asian (I mean “Confucian” Chinese-Korean-Japanese) and an actyivist org you would have found an Asian name for yourselves.

The talk abouut Asian dating other thanh Asians is offensive to me. Chinese lit (the Chinese children’s storyu and the heroic tradition) respects individual privacy. What happens in the bedroom and with whom is nobody’s business unless the individual makes his or her provate life public.

The concern should be the children. Your children are going to learn JACK AND THE BEANSTALK with or without you. If your partner is not Chinese and you’re going to tell your kids they’re AA, they should know the Chinese children’s stories. That’s the parents responsibility. The parents should have their own schools (remember Chinese school?) Public school is white and white racist.  If your kds don’t know the Asian stories to match the European stories they’re taught as American, they’re not Asian. They’re American tourists.

You’re conference where you talked to someone who’d written his dissertation on me was without any real content. You didn’t name names till the end and left the impression that feminists have a case against me and for Kingston.

Your interviewee disstertation seems to have strayed from literature into Socioology (feminism).

The feminists haven’t proven they know the history of feminism or why Asian are responsible for changing their history to conform to their view of what should have been, and the rest of the world including whites are left untouched. That racism. AAS, sociocolgy, Karthika, and the name Thymos as you use it is racist at worst and young self-pity to  be generous. But I’m not generous.

TAKEYUKI’S BOOTS is to be circulated privately until it’s published. Is it real? How do you know?

Share this with Thyos and the Fightig 44’s. (I would change the name. 44 is double death to the Asian)

FCC

You’ve gotta have the highest respect for Frank Chin–not only is he a pioneer of Asian American activism, but he’s still active.  He’s one of the few people in Asian American literature who has done it all–he co-founded Asian American Lit, spearheaded and conceptualized the Day of Remembrance, and is now working to bring traditional Chinese stories to Asian American children.  I can tell you from personal experience that it’s an experience to speak with him.  It’s rare to meet someone with Mr. Chin’s achievements who has radically influenced history.

The interview he’s referring to is the one with THX, which we hosted at the 44s West Coast meeting.  You can hear it here.

As for names, the board of Thymos has always been open to change.  It’s just that we’ve never found an Asian name that really works.  Mr. Chin is correct in that it’s a bit funny to have a Greek name on an Asian organization.  Our usage is based on an idea first reported by the Greek Plato, transformed into an idea of recognition by the German Hegel, and interpreted by Japanese American Francis Fukuyama (though whose ethnicity has nothing to do with his or our treatment of his text).

Names are funny.  I just saw an article in the Oregonian last week about a mostly white motorcycle gang who call themselves the Mongols.  I think they probably derived some of their inspiration from Genghis, the same way we derived inspiration from the ideas developed by the aforementioned individuals (although we don’t have the criminal element in Thymos!).  So the question is this: Should an Asian American organization have an Asian name?

I actually agree with Mr. Chin and think he’s right.  Overall, I would love to have an Asian name, as it’s the very first word that hits the eye or ear whenever we write or talk about ourselves.  Ideas or suggestions on this topic?

18 Comments leave one →
2008 October 29

I don’t think it’s that big of a deal to have a Greek name for an Asian American organization. The word Asian is Greek in origin. What matters is whether the individual or group being named identifies with his or her name and the concept behind it. Does the word convey the meaning you want in all it’s subtleties?

Besides, there are many different Asians. So which language do you choose, if you were to choose an Asian name?

2008 October 29

That’s a very interesting letter he wrote to you. Although I would disagree with the part about Asians dating other than Asians, I think I would agree with most of what he wrote to you. I’m appalled that he still has the energy and the determination left to remain active in the realm of the AA literature community. He obviously hasn’t lost much of his spark.

I studied Chin heavily in college and I think he still has not gotten the due respect that he rightfully deserves from the mainstream and the AA activist communities for the incredible, no-holds-barred literature that he commanded during the last quarter century.

Thanks for posting that.

2008 October 29
Jason permalink

I just noticed the other day that on my bus ride to work, I pass by a “New York Style” wok and teriyaki.

Whenever I see a “Wok” or “Teriyaki” restaurant, I always wonder about the authenticity of the food. Often being owned by someone of an inappropriate ethnicity, and the food being (white) American ethnisized.

When Chin talks about the children’s stories, I’m reminded of the restaurants. Because I’ve always felt like even the stories we do get to here from Asian countries in school get extremely ethnisized in a white fashion.

I even think Disney does this a lot in their cartoons - particularly with the characters that we’re supposed to like so that they’re more relatable.

I also think that the stories can do more to help children with ethnic issues when growing up. Since they’ll know more than just what is “white”.

I know that Frank Chin may be writing directly to you about the Chinese stories, but I find it odd that we’re leaving out the Thai, Lao, Cambodian…etc.. stories too. I actually learned stories about monkeys taking coconuts out of trees as I child. And to be honest, I actually usually had to ask my parents about what the Tagalog meant in the stories/rhymes that I had learned to recite as a child.

All this brings me to the name…
If I were to simply hear Thymos on the streetside, I wouldn’t care to think that this was an AA organization. Now I’ve been breed to think that the biggest things about any orginzation I’ve been a part of are mobilization and dissemination. If someone was to over hear the name, chances are not much more would happen.

Being Filipino, say if I had overheard someone talking about the organization AnakBayan [Translates roughly into Children of the Nation] There is a chance that I will ask about whats going on and what they’re doing. The name itself would definitely spark my interest. And largely due to associations.

Now if we look at history, it seems that more often AA communities are forced to eventually integrate into the regular mainstream (white) society. When I think of integration, I do not think of disassociation. The adoption of “white” names and the “white” lifestyle - where as the mainstream, can simply chose not to integrate our lives into their homes. It’s reminiscent of choosing a certain lifestyle as being the “correct” one. To me it feels like a one way conversation, and probably why the word assimilation is used over the integration.

Now, to use a white [or more specifically Greek in this case] name calls out the old trend of assimilating into the mainstream, and losing a piece of Asian culture in doing so. I feel that in this respect, a white name can be a disregard to the history of Asian America.

Now with Thymos coming from western philosophy, and the combination of Thymos being an Asian American organization, it may say to some that the “Western” Philosophies are greater in concept to the “Eastern” ones. Yet again, another component that disregards and by interpretation can say that the white world is better than the asian world.

Of course, when you pick another name, there is a large chance that people will find it cliche, and not so special. And since there is hardly any dissemination of the knowledge that would have people understand the point of the new name, it may then lose its significance.

Whats in a name anyways?
Whatever anyone may choose to interpret.

I actually really like the name Thymos. Its got a ring, and even now since you guys have somewhat of a name in the community down there, that name carries the reputation. Of course, when I think of Western Philosophies [well, not the old ones, but more current stuff...ie, Noam Chomsky with his gigantic cult following] I’m reminded of a bunch of old, white “intellectuals” sitting in a room talking about everything that they can which involves no action or mobilization.

….Yeah…
Lol.

Hopefully you get something out of that Byron. It may come across as jargon cause I’m quite sick right now.

2008 October 29

Thanks for your comments, All!

TMM,

The “activists” definitely cheated Frank Chin. Don’t worry though. Karma exists, and he’ll eventually get the recognition he deserves, as long as people like you and me continue to organize, remember, and remind.

James,

Thanks for your comment! It actually does pretty much sum up what we do. So I guess it’s right for us, but it is hard. I know of one other young leaders group under JACL called “Kaizen,” which means “continuous improvement” in Japanese, but that’s not us–we’re not “continuous,” we’re “in your face.” Forget the incremental stuff.

I don’t know if this is too esoteric, but the Hegelian Master-Slave Dialectic was where we first found inspiration in the word. I actually found the term while reading “The End of History and the Last Man” by Francis Fukuyama.

I guess another question is whether we’ve moved past that idea. I think we have, but the description is still extremely powerful.

Jason,

Thanks for your comments. It’s totally helpful. You pretty much hit it right on. People don’t turn and react when they hear the word Thymos, and you have to explain it to them. It adds a layer of complexity that sometimes doesn’t help.

You’re also right about the Eastern/Western comparison. As Asian Americans, it was what was (and really still is) available to us in this country. Most of writings on systems, whether we’re talking about democracy, communism, or other large systems, (and I may be ignorant on this matter) may come from Western sources, and since we’re working in a system from within a Western country where we were all raised, it’s where we got our material. Now that’s not to say that we can’t progress from that…

We actually did come up with an “Asian ___” name, but it didn’t stick. People said it was a great idea, then people just reverted because it wasn’t catchy enough. So if anyone does have a catchy name, please let me know.

2008 October 30
Jason permalink

“Asian ____ formerly known as Thymos”

Making it hip like the Artist, formerly known as the Prince.

Lol. I kidd.

2008 October 30

We should just use a symbol!

2008 October 30
Jason permalink

Perfect!

And when you talk to people about it:
“Hey, we’ve got a *motion corresponding to symbol here* coming up pretty soon!”
“Yeah! I’m really excited to go to the *exact same motion* meeting!”

It’ll turn heads!

2008 October 30
Jin permalink

I see where Frank is coming from. And from the tone and his work, he is quite passionate as an ‘active’ activist and I have a lot of respect for that.

As for the children learning about one’s own culture, if I am understanding him correctly, I agree that it is important for them to not only acknowledge one’s own culture but have pride along with it. But without knowledge as a baseline, how is one to have ‘pride’? Pride can equate to power. And power can equate to perseverance.

Ok, so I may be straying a bit. As for Asian name for an Asian organization - I understand where he is coming from, but I’m not quite sure if I 100% agree with it. And I’m not sure ‘why’ quite yet. I think naming a racially-designated organization name outside of its so-called race does not equate to lack of respect for that race. I’ll have to think of an example for this (my mind is so clogged with other information right now, it’s hard to concentrate).

2008 October 31

Jason,

Ooops. Looks like I forgot to respond to one of your particular comments.

When Frank Chin was here, he actually told a Japanese story. He believes in telling the other ones too. But I think his primary expertise is his knowledge of the Chinese stories.

We need to have a secret handshake. That would definitely promote community.

Jin,

I agree with Frank on the stories. It’s cool because all these “representations” are already there if we look for them. I think my main question is how they integrate with Asian American life. That would be an interesting question, and there are probably enough people who know the stories and live in the U.S. for us to find out.

2008 November 2
Akrypti permalink

How is “Kartika” not an “Asian” name? The journal’s namesake is derived from a term in Sanskrit and also refers to traditional Buddhist symbolism. I can’t think a more “Asian” name for a journal, other than “Asian Journal.”

2008 November 2

Akrypti:

He’s saying that there’s a major cultural difference between East Asian American and South Asian American. I agree with him that there’s a big difference. Although I guess Kartika has writers from both cultures…

2008 November 3

Actually, I’d almost say “yul-gi” in Korean comes close (sorry, don’t have han-gul font installed on my computer yet - I suppose, that itself should earn some wrath from Frank Chin… Frank Chin! I am so jealous. And glad to see that he’s still fiery as hell) but I guess that’s would exclude non-Korean readers?

2008 November 3

Hey Mama Nabi,

Thanks for coming to my site! You’re the first person with an avatar, including myself…I’m going to have to learn a thing or two from you!

2008 November 3

He does have a good point, but like others have mentioned, the hard part is because an AA group encompasses more than just East Asians.

This is why I think the 44s is a pretty good name because it means something to all Asians.

Perhaps creating a word from multiple Asian languages? (or find one that’s pronounced similarly across Asian languages).

2008 November 3
Akrypti permalink

Journey to the West, a classic Chinese myth, has as its main plot point a group of folks from China going to India to fetch sacred Buddhist texts to bring back to China.

Based on Chin’s mentality, we should segregate ourselves by race, culture, ethnic background. If there isn’t a solid documented origin from the country and culture we want to identify ourselves as part of, then we ought to reject it.

Tomorrow, instead of going to work in a skirt suit and pumps, I should put on han fu zuang. Is that what we’re saying here?

2008 November 4

JJ:

Good points! You see what we went through in finding a name…

Akrypti:

I think the argument would be that Buddhism originated in India but no longer exists there in any substantive form. Chess also came from India, though it’s now primarily a European game. So if Kasparov went to India, his Journey to the East would still be European.

In Thymos’s defense, I don’t think any Greeks took the name Thymos for any Greek org. :)

2008 November 4
Jin permalink

This argument is about pleasing everyone in the Asian Community - with what’s transpired and all, we all need to first learn to respect each other intra-racially. We are so culturally varied it’s difficult to please everyone unless we name it “asian-american” something - even that itself can cause issues due to the “american” name in it. Why don’t we all just write some suggestions. You can’t please everyone but at least we can throw ideas around. (Some of my recs are: Elasian, Centrasian — yeah I know these are really corny, but they are just ideas without using different languages).

2008 November 4
Jason permalink

Jin,

You’re right it is about making the entire Asian Community happy. I’m not sure what issues you’re implying come with the “American” name in it. The only real difference I’ve ever noticed with having the “American” part in a name/label are the issues - some be in America, others being elsewhere. Or in a specific case of personal experience with the shortened term “Fil-Am” which is typically used to describe the Filipino American youth who aren’t quite so connected with their “roots” or don’t know their language. This particular name creates a value system on which people are rating their “Filipino-ness”. This is an idea that I cannot stand at all.

If you’d rather this discussion continue off this thread - you can e-mail me about it. I’d really like to hear more. Or maybe we’ll just do it in the next Teleconference too - It kind of relates to what I had mentioned in some of the e-mails.

Byron,

I thought about that as a possibility for Mr. Chin. I figured it made the most
sense to see it as a conversation between you and him - and not a conversation between him and the world. [Of course, I'd love to be scolded by him - as so many others would too - by having him post and telling me I'm all wrong. lol]

And my only real advice is to stick with the name you’ve made a reputation for.
Really, I think Thymos should.

One you build that reputation strong enough, people will turn their heads at the name and know what its about - I believe you’ll be able to reach that point.

A greek word can eventually become as disconnected from Greek as Chinese food [ ie. Wok / Teriyaki ] has become increasingly Americanized. Hell even worse here there is a “Lumpia Teriyaki Express” talk about money making device in a name. No offense but it really makes this pop in my head “white people flock to it” but I guess by that I mean everyone - more like the white culture not the skin color.

I believe as time goes on you can claim it as your own. Using a living language can allow us to do amazing things linguistically. We can adopt words and make them our own. Hell, in the Philippines plenty of words are made up of English and Spanish words - Japan borrows words from just about anything and makes them their own. Who says we cannot do so here?

And if you don’t know I hate that “Ain’t ain’t a word if it ain’t in the dictionary crap” I always joked to make my own addendum to the Webster’s Dictionary so I could claim things as words in the dictionary.
Hell even better…
Urban Dictionary

Right now, I don’t think there is a better name than Thymos.
Hearing it now, [and not before] it says everything I need to know right there.

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