William, the Better Asian Man, surrounded by women
Many of you have probably seen my discussions of PUA, or Pick Up Artistry, for Asian American men. You may have heard my Fallout Central podcast where I spoke with the Asian Playboy, the first person to racialize PUA for Asian Americans, or you may have seen my pieces on Asian American Male-ism here and here. You may have also heard my interview with William from BetterAsianMan.com here. Dialectic the Stealth MC, one of the owners of the Fighting 44s, wrote a piece endorsing Betterasianman here. On the Fighting 44s, it has been a long battle, with lots of negativity and protest against William, even though one of the owners endorsed him. I myself never endorsed BAM or the Asian Playboy, though I do respect both of them for the proactive steps they are taking in Asian American society. Not only have I never endorsed them, but I’ve also recently been a bit quiet on the fallout that has taken place in the discussions over PUA, feminism, and sexism.
So let me give my appraisal on the situation, along with my official review of BAM.
First, I believe that some people are giving William far less credit than he deserves. After putting together Fallout Central, the most successful Asian American podcast to date, along with that awesome class at Wellesley on Asian American male sexuality, I believe he deserves respect. He puts so much time into activism, and he’s accomplished a lot. To sit there and bash the guy without challenging his logic (“Sexist! Objectifier!”) seems to me to be disrespectful and uncalled-for, especially when it comes from people who put far less effort into changing or engaging society than he does. It’s not easy being an activist–I can tell you that from experience, and if these people would engage him a bit more, I think they’d understand the logic of where he’s coming from, even if he doesn’t always do it in a polished manner.
Second, people are painting this as a male vs. female thing. As I’ve mentioned earlier, men and women see the world differently. On another level though, it’s not male vs. female but rather activist vs. internet participant. I have not once met a single female activist who opposes his activities. There are, for example, female activists on 8Asians.com who brush him off, but they don’t condemn him. There are female members of Thymos who think the concept is good. Even Reappropriate Jenn accepted his advertising, which I think is a pretty strong message of support. Plus, William has female activists who talk on his site as well; his podcast two Sundays ago featured two guests who are women. It really bothers me that some people use the internet to bash him, and I wish more people would just call in rather than taking the easy approach of using their fingers to do the “talking.” If they heard what it is that he’s trying to do, I really believe they would behave differently. His system is not perfect, but it isn’t going to get better unless people work together.
(And for those who say it’s different when you’re a woman, I KNOW it’s possible for women to sit in the same room as a PUA without losing their cool–check out the women on the View, or check out Reappopriate Jen’s site.)
Now let me be straight–I understand both men and women are sometimes at different stages. Many of his detractors may not be comfortable in real-time communication, and they may feel threatened by the possibility of being proven wrong. I also don’t mean this as a personal attack–most of these internet people are probably good people, and I know some of them personally. But hiding behind the internet simply doesn’t help anyone, and it hinders the changes that we so badly need. If you’re afraid of real-time communication, at the very least you need to realize that most life takes place off-line and to give some leeway or constructive criticism to people who are trying to make change.
So let me give my view of BetterAsianMan.com itself.
1. I think there are some serious problems with some of the endorsements on William’s site.
I have no problem with him mentioning Asian Playboy since that is where he learned his skills, but I don’t see why he can’t critique the problems on Asian Playboy’s site. If you’re an activist, you need to still take a stand for what is right. APB has people boasting about threesomes and other sexual acts on his site which is, in my opinion, disrespectful towards women. You can’t have it both ways–if you want to teach men to meet women, you’d better make sure they respect women, otherwise you can’t expect women or men who love women to support you when you endorse a guy who has videos of men bragging about blowjobs on his website.
He also links up to people like Johnny Wolf, who have as a goal in life nothing more than just sleeping with skanky women. That’s fine–it’s totally consensual and there’s nothing morally wrong with that–but let’s not call it empowerment. Such dalliances take place at the expense of women since society gives different treatment to promiscuous men and promiscuous women. I took a look at both Johnny and APB’s site, and both of them lack any kind of curiosity into improving society and respecting women. In activism, you need to choose your friends carefully, especially when those friends are only in it for self-gratification.
2. William is not an expert on relationships, nor is APB or Johnny Mouse. This needs to be put out there, front and center. If you read William’s blog, you’ll notice–he NEVER talks about his relationships; he only talks about his loneliness and his approach. It never goes beyond this. It would be like writing a book about running a marathon and only writing about the first mile.
Why is this important? It’s important because the basic unit of society is the family, and if Asian guys are acting like a bunch of gigolos (which he isn’t, but which some of his endorsees are), they’re not fulfilling their strongest activist roles as fathers and husbands. This isn’t a heterosexual thing either–all men need to be husbands and fathers for a society to be strong.
Now this is not to say that what he’s doing is bad, per se. You can’t become a husband or father without first having the ability to attract women. But attracting women is just a first step, not an end in itself. Making PUA an end in itself is to really stop short of what human beings can really achieve.
3. On a positive note, I think a LOT of good is coming from the fact that William is using his activist skills to challenge peoples’ beliefs. His postings and activities have generated much badly needed discussion on Asian American gender issues, and the fact that there is so much resistance and emotion on both sides tells me that it’s an important issue.
4. Social skills are an important part of empowerment. If he’s teaching Asian men to approach women in an honest manner, he’s doing at least one good thing.
5. It really does have to go beyond just picking up women. I’ve listened to some of the podcasts, and I usually only like listening to the ones in which he talks to cool people, like the one two Sundays ago in which he interviewed James, the guy who runs the Alpha Asian blog. Just talking about picking up women gets boring after a while. I can only imagine how boring it must get for women. The fact is that most men who have the ability to make change in society are not the kind of guys who need PUA lessons, and if you only cater to that wounded demographic, larger social change which pushes the envelope on human achievement will never take place.
Read “The Game” by Neil Strauss, and you’ll see how surprised the actor Tom Cruise gets when meeting Strauss. He says something along the lines of “Imagine what PUAs could achieve if they put their energy into doing something more constructive.”
So this is my long-winded appraisal of Better Asian Man. I support William in what he does, but I can’t yet give him a full endorsement because of #1 above. #2 and #5 need to be put front and center, and #3 and #4 need are items which his detractors need to take into account. Overall, I think that William will someday change the world of Asian American activism, if he moves past Pickup and cuts off his ties with guys who promote sexism. This BAM site is just one step in the right general direction.
Related posts:
Byron,
Thanks for providing your honest feedback (be it positive or negative) about betterasianman.com. I am taking some time to read and understand the points you’ve raised, and I look forward to continuing the conversation with you in order to resolve our differences in opinion.
-William
Hey Jaehwan, glad you enjoyed my interview. I think the PUA thing can help some guys develop social skills and confidence. Some guys just don’t have enough life experiences, so they didn’t develop enough emotional resiliency to deal with people, let alone members of the opposite sex they find attractive. So in this sense, the PUA thing is empowering to some Asian men.
William,
Looking forward to your response! Let’s keep the dialogue going. Regardless of what the non-activists say (and regardless of whether or not there currently exist points of disagreement), the fact that you’re pushing the envelope is definitely having a good effect on the way we talk about activism. I look forward to further discussions!
James,
I agree with everything you said. I just think:
a) It’s like a remedial class. Remedial is good, but there needs to be a next step.
b) Fatherhood and Husband-hood (is that a word?). I think that’s where the focus needs to be. Plus there needs to be more respect for women, which is part of fatherhood and husband-hood.
I’m looking forward to both your comments and William’s response. Also–and this is something that you won’t see from any of the “internet activists”–I’ll be talking more about the respect-for-women aspect. Most people just say, “William, you’re wrong!” I’m actually going to try to come up with some concrete ways to make things right. Hey, maybe WE can try to come up with some concrete ways to make things right.
Thanks for your both of your comments, and thanks for supporting my blog!
B.
Byron,
Regarding a), thank you! That makes me feel that the method I’ve proposed (taking the ABCs of Attraction bootcamp) is a method that works, and can accomplish the job of helping guys find fulfilling romance.
Regarding b) (fatherhood & husbandhood), I am unable to advise men on how to do this, as I am neither a father nor a husband. However, if you can find an Asian American man who is a father who has provided personal testimony on how to be a good father and husband, I would happily link to that website and endorse his method.
Regarding b) (respect for women), I feel that the contents of my website clearly demonstrate that I respect women. If I am wrong about that, please clarify.
I like the part about working with me to come up with some concrete ways to make things right. Let’s do it.
-William
William:
Fatherhood and husbandhood–that’s me! I’m a beginner, so I can’t teach it. However, I can blog about it. Maybe that can be a challenge for me. If I do, I’ll let you know. I hope to blog about it.
As for you personally, even if you are not a husband or father, you could still acknowledge its importance or examine the question of whether it’s important. You could look into your personal life for this as you have with other issues. What happens after men attract women?
Maybe we can make this a question: Do you think Fatherhood and Husbandhood are important in society? If so, why? If not, why?
On the question of respect for women–your own content is fine, nobody disagrees with that. But you still link to Johnny Mouse and APB. And you don’t challenge the content on their sites. Given the fact that we agree that the content is sexist, it’s a problem regardless of the rest of your content on your site. Agree? Disagree? At the very least, if in fact they’re part of your movement, there should be some sort of challenge to what they do.
As an example, there are people in my movement whom I challenge. In the end, we may disagree on issues and may move forward in spite of that disagreement, but I do make a point to mention that I disagree with their method or views or actions.
B.
I think William endorses ABC of attraction, but appears not to speak against it because he to a certain extent admires that these Pickup Artsts (PUAs) bed MANY women. Because of this fascination, he too tries the same tactics they do in real life. Many of these PUAs bed many multiple women at a time (as indicated in their lay reports and blogs).
I also don’t agree with certain lifestyle choices and things that are taught in the curriculum.
i.e. if the PUAs get a girl to their apt and these girls resist their advances many times, the PUAs are taught to continue to be persistent nevertheless. I think this is disrespectful in many aspects. I don’t agree with many tactics that are taught by APB and JW and I don’t agree with their lifestyle and the way they treat the many women in their lives. As for William, sometimes people are guilty just by association – and we tend to emulate those we look up to subconsciously – lifestyle choices and all. So by being closely associated with APB and JW and how they treat women and what they teach others on how to treat women (generally as sex objects) — it’s tough not to be viewed in the same manner as William too tries to bed as many women as possible (even if you don’t write about them on bam). And these are the same people that taught William – so a lot of the stuff is already ingrained whether realized or not.
I’d also like to bring up the topic of morals. We all have different morals but PUAs (although they don’t teach it) they also don’t endorse RESPECTING women — which in turn makes people think that they are misogynists.
My advice is to instead of 100% agreeing with ABC of attraction, William should break it down to what 50% is agreed with and 50% what is not agreed with. And if he endorses sites like JW and other blogs that talk about fucking women or guys getting blowjobs, he must to some extent agree with them/admire them in some way. It’s hard not to perceive the bam site as true “activism” when he is advocating sites that are perceived to be misogynistic lifestyles.
Jin,
Thanks for your comment! I agree with you.
The point for William, of course, is that silent endorsement equals agreement. If I were to link to something that was blatantly sexist or racist, I’d have some explaining to do. So where is the explanation in BAM’s case?
William,
Would you agree to do as Jin suggests? Would you agree to write something substantive about your position on misogyny on the APB and JW sites? On your site here, it says:
I think my question is this: What do YOU PERSONALLY think? I think it would bring your site more legitimacy as an activist site if you would face some of these issues head-on. Agree? Disagree?
Pingback: Better Asian Man » Blog Archive » Dear Better Asian Man: You are a bad person.
Dear Jin,
Thank you for your honest and candid feedback.
You said, “I think William endorses ABC of attraction, but appears not to speak against it”
This is an incorrect statement. I have spoken against the ABCs of Attraction marketing materials and website verbiage, as I understand how it can be interpreted as offensive to many women. I have discussed this with Byron Wong in very specific detail, and I will be addressing the problems I have with the ABCs of Attraction marketing materials and website verbiage on this blog within the next 2 weeks.
You said, “… but appears not to speak against it because he to a certain extent admires that these Pickup Artsts (PUAs) bed MANY women.”
This is an incorrect statement. The only person that I greatly admire is The Asian Playboy (his real name is JT), but it’s not because he has had sex with many women. I admire him because he has devised a way for me, a person with a long history of social and sexual anxiety, to finally discover happiness and fulfilling romantic relationships.
You said, “Because of this fascination, he too tries the same tactics they do in real life.” This is an incorrect statement. I don’t simply “try the same tactics,” I fully implement all of the lessons of the ABCs of Attraction in their entirety, every day of my life. The most important of these is to “be yourself.”
You said, “Many of these PUAs bed many multiple women at a time (as indicated in their lay reports and blogs).” This is a true statement.
You said, “William too tries to bed as many women as possible (even if you don’t write about them on bam).” This statement is currently false. I once had a goal of having sex with as many girls as humanly possible. During that time interval, this statement was true. However, I abandoned that goal last February. That way of life is not for me. When I’m single, I am completely and totally single, and will date whoever I want to date. However, when I am in a committed relationship, I am completely and totally in a committed relationship.
You said, “if the PUAs get a girl to their apt and these girls resist their advances many times, the PUAs are taught to continue to be persistent nevertheless.” If, by saying, “continue to be persistent nevertheless,” you mean to say “be persistent verbally without physical coercion,” then this statement is 100% correct. If you are implying that we teach men to physically force women to have sex with them, you are 100% wrong. No instructor in the ABCs of Attraction teaches any man to rape a woman. Period. However, an individual is free to say whatever she or he wants to.
You said, “they also don’t endorse RESPECTING women — which in turn makes people think that they are misogynists.” This statement is false. I teach all of my students to respect women. On what basis do you make this claim?
-William
Jaehwan,
I understand what you’re saying, and I understand what you are asking of me. I will respond back to this thread with an answer after I have thought it through some more.
One of the things I am thinking about in particular is whether or not BetterAsianMan.com is an activist website. Quite frankly, I never really thought that it was, but after going back and forth with you about it over the past couple of weeks, I’m beginning to think that it actually could become one. However, I would like to note that my original intention from the point at which I launched betterasianman.com was that it was NOT an activist website. If there is some way that it could be, though, through several iterations of discussions and sharing ideas with you, I see no reason why it shouldn’t be.
-William
Jin,
If you would like further detail on why I abandoned my goal of “trying to have sex with as many women as humanly possible” last February, email me at betterasianman.com. I’d be happy to explain it to you, but not on this forum.
-William
Hi William,
Looking forward to your response.
Activism is cool because it helps other people. You’ve got an usual talent for bringing people in, so if you can bring people in and get them to work for the common good–i.e. activism–why not do it!?
B.
PS: With regards to your message to Jin, I know you and I have discussed the misogyny on APB’s site a few times, but I don’t think we ever went into much depth–at least not to the level that the question would seem to require. So…I’d definitely would like to discuss/hear your ideas on that further!
I make these claims because I know people that know you William and know PUAs and those that went through the bootcamp. While I think that the ultimate goal of “helping ppl get better with women and be a better self” is good in the workshops — somewhere along the way, the things that got taught were ingrained and became twisted. Hard not to when APB ad JW and other lay reports and PUA blogs endorse such behavior of bedding women (the very same ppl that run these bootcamps).
And regarding “respecting women” – it involves chivalry — for which these things are not advocated in the bootcamps or evinced in blogs.
I have major doubts about the whole pickup process. I’ve seen the transformations with people. On the SURFACE it seems good, yet somehow on a deeper level of those that I know, something inherently changed and negatively affected them. After all, immediate gratification and looks alteration can go so far and only creates temporary happiness. The pick up community/seduction community has long term negative affects that I’ve seen and witnessed.
Jin,
I appreciate your candid feedback. You are one of the first people to step forward and give some honest opinions.
You said, “somewhere along the way, the things that got taught were ingrained and became twisted.”
What does this mean? Do you mean that I am twisted? How? Why?
You said, “And regarding “respecting women” – it involves chivalry — for which these things are not advocated in the bootcamps or evinced in blogs.”
You are 100% correct that “respecting women” is not evinced in any blog of any pickup artist that I know of. We do teach men to respect women; it’s one of the core principles. You may continue to believe that we don’t, and you’ll continue to be wrong.
You said, “On the SURFACE it seems good, yet somehow on a deeper level of those that I know, something inherently changed and negatively affected them.” You may be right here, but I have only seen positive changes and positive effects occur in my own life, and in the lives of my students. I have found fulfillment and romance that I’ve never before experienced in my life. Is such happiness a “negative affect?”
You said, “After all, immediate gratification and looks alteration can go so far and only creates temporary happiness.” By what means have you determined whether or not I am happy now, and whether my happiness is temporary?
You said, “The pick up community/seduction community has long term negative affects that I’ve seen and witnessed.” What are these long term negative effects? I would like to invite you to read the entries in the “One Asian American Man’s Life” blog category on my blog, and tell me if you really still believe that my life is worse now than it was before I took the bootcamp.
I’ve been through this with Byron many times before: it is easy to speak in generalities and say “this is bad” and “that is a negative influence,” but if you really want to have a dialogue that extends beyond mere shallow labelling and name-calling, then please provide some specific examples.
-William
Jin,
You may know people who know me and know people who know other people who are PUA’s, but until you’ve taken the actual class, you’re really providing an opinion from a place of not really knowing the contents of what we teach. I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with that because you certainly are entitled to your opinion. But if you are to make your opinions from that starting point, at least be honest about it and don’t pretend that you actually know what we teach.
-William
Jaehwan,
The conversation we had last night on the “emergency edition” of the Better Asian Man podcast was VERY helpful for me. I think that the biggest take-away for me is that I better understand why you want me to articulate on my blog precisely why I think I’m a fundamentally different person from JT and also Johnny Wolf.
Also, when I woke up this morning, my first thought was, “betterasianman.com is not an activist website, it’s a website dedicated to the empowerment of the Asian American man.” This is a thought that I am currently still thinking about.
-William
“But if you are to make your opinions from that starting point, at least be honest about it and don’t pretend that you actually know what we teach.”
No one said that I was pretending to know anything. Nor have I NOT been honest about my expressions and e-pinion nor do I need to clarify how I know what I know. Who’s to say I didn’t take the bootcamp? Nor whether I know you? I don’t have to explain. These are my opinions and thoughts on the matter and we are all entitled to opinions. No one here is either right or wrong. I am simply saying that I disagree with certain parts of the PUA community — why get so defensive? You are entitled to your opinions as well, and if you think it has helped you, then good for you. I never said I had any scientific proof of the negative effects — these are my observations of ppl I know. So again, my opinion is MY opinion — long term negative affects and short term “gain” —– we could go on and on and I’m sure you can keep getting defensive and all, but that’s not my goal – I’m simply here to express MY thoughts against the “seduction community” as contrived as I think it it.
William,
You can’t please everyone. There will be haters… In my view, continue what you’re doing and don’t ever try to please everyone.
Let the haters state their opinion and move on. They have nothing to offer beside baseless criticism.
I applaud you for helping other asian men to be successful with women. As far as APB website boasting threesomes, orgy, etc… There’s nothing wrong with having threesome or orgy, as long as it’s consensual, what’s the problem? Asian men should not have orgy? That’s so fucking stupid.
Jin,
I’m glad that you are now at least being honest about saying that what you’ve written here is merely an opinion.
However, if you would like to assist us in determining what exactly is wrong with the ABCs of Attraction curriculum (or if we should try to eradicate it entirely from existence), this would be a good time to share those specific observations. That’s really the only way to move this dialogue forward. Otherwise, all we’re doing is making baseless criticism that serves to help no one.
-William
PS- Aside from all of this, Jin, it’s really great to hear from you, even if it is through the veneer of an anonymous nickname, “Jin.” I miss you.
Yom,
Thanks for your feedback and support. I really appreciate it.
I agree with you that the vast majority of my critics have not provided any concrete evidence of things that would allow us to modify the ABCs of Attraction curriculum. Still, I am actively reaching out to individuals such as Byron in order to continue to move the dialogue forward, and work towards eradicating the aspects of the ABCs of Attraction curriculum that are “bad.” The very first positive step forward that I was able to take, after brainstorming with the members of the fighting 44′s, was to add an ethics module as a standard part of the ABCs of Attraction bootcamp. So I can’t say that the criticism I’ve received has been useless. At a minimum, that is one step forward, and I look forward to making even more positive changes.
Regarding the threesomes and orgies, I don’t think that anyone thinks that there’s anything wrong with participating in those sexual acts in a consensual way, but many people have a problem with guys writing about those escapades in a way that reveals other people’s identity. Still, I’m not totally convinced that people’s identities are really being revealed in the vast majority of the field reports I have seen on the ABCs of Attraction website, but I will be looking into this further with Byron and I will be addressing this subject, and more, on the betterasianman.com blog in the upcoming weeks.
-William
William,
I think that was the best PUA/non-PUA podcast yet! Looking forward to you posting it. Maybe it can shed some light on the criticisms in both directions. I think it’ll really get the conversation going.
Byron,
I saw you just posted a comment here. For you, it’s 10pm. For me, it’s 1:00am. You must be wondering what the hell I’m doing up this late writing comments on some blog message board. The answer: I’m uploading the podcast
-William
Haha…good to hear! I actually WAS wondering what you were doing up so late!
Well, if it makes you feel better, once you post the podcast, I’ll probably be up late listening to it…
B.