So William posted podcast #2 from two night ago. You can see it here, or you can play it here:
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This podcast topic immediately followed our first bigWOWO podcast, and the purpose was to question William over his linking to APB and Johnny. It’s the exact same crew: William, THX, Jason, James, and me. The original question was framed as follows: If your site is an activist site, and if APB and Johnny promote sexist objectification of women, why do you link to them?
I think the podcast is informative, and I think we all made progress. As I mentioned in my last podcast note, it was an honor to be hanging out with these smart people. There are a couple of post-podcast comments that I have:
1. First, in the discussion, William and I went head-to-head over whether it was APB’s actual content or just the marketing which is sexist. He agreed that the marketing is sexist, but he said that the content is different. He kept repeating that the “marketing” was sexist. I agreed that the marketing is sexist, but I also thought that the content of the lessons were sexist. I challenged him for two reasons, both of which I mentioned in the podcast.
First, it’s clear that the website narratives, along with the lay reports, etc., are part of the curriculum. The fact that these reports are on the web AND the fact that Johnny and Playboy encourage their students to add to these reports proves beyond a reasonable doubt that this sexism is part of the curriculum. You don’t have to be part of a bootcamp to make this assessment.
We have Jin’s report in the comment section here (I need to find a way to add permalinks to our posts). William questions Jin, but even then, we also have John Kwak’s report here. I’ll quote Mr. Kwak:
One negative aspect which does not sit well with me. APB goals for his student is to get a one night lay if possible. I’m not against people wanting to have sex or if people wants one night lay.Up to them.
I guess I’m a bit conservative. I never had a one night lay nor am I ashamed to admit it. Not something I’m used to nor is it important for me to do this. APB wanted to push me to my limit. This is where he became more like a drill sergeant.
I’m sure I could look through the “lay reports” to find more, but this objectification is clearly part of the curriculum. William is an honest guy, but he may simply not be seeing what others are seeing.
(Byron’s Note: First, we’re talking about APB’s classes, not William’s. Second, it’s interesting that William and Kwak both did the bootcamp on William’s birthday. You can see William’s birthday tribute here, and if you look at Kwak’s timeline, it coincides with early October. Funny how we’ve progressed over the past year.)
2. Somewhere in the podcast, William mentions that he continues to promote APB because “I didn’t invent” the system. Well, neither did APB! [Edit 10/11/08: Please see my note below.]
Here’s something to think about, which I just realized yesterday–William credits APB as the creator of the system, but if you look at the lingo of APB and his students: “kino” “AMOG” “sets” and if you’ve read the Game by Neil Strauss, you know that this lingo comes from Mystery, Jeffries, and others–not APB. (As I mentioned in a previous post, “AMOG-ing” was co-invented by a Chinese guy, whose name happens not to be APB.) So why does William have to credit APB, while APB doesn’t have to credit the people who created his system? APB may have modified it, but it was there before he was in the game. APB seems to be a straight up guy, and if we presented this to him, I doubt he would challenge it.
I think APB should give more credit to those who invented his system, but as I understand it, PUA is “open source” and constantly evolving. What this means is that anyone should be free to change the system and claim the system as they see fit. This INCLUDES William and any other APB student.
By the way, I used “Elijah Muhammad” and the Nation of Islam as an example, but Elijah Muhammad clearly did create a lot of the system (though he too inherited from someone, a Mr. Fard.). APB learned his system, then made very slight modifications. There’s a difference.
3. Okay, time for some WOWO-ish thought.
At the very end of the podcast, William asks me whether it was his responsibility if people used these skills for bad purposes, and I brought in the example of a kung-fu teacher who teaches a boy kung-fu to become a bully. We agreed that the teacher does have responsibility, and William says he gets around this by teaching “ethics.”
Here’s a question that came into my head this morning–if you were to ask a kung-fu teacher if he teaches ethics, he’d probably say yes. But he’d never use that word in class. Ethics is a question of what not to do, while good kung-fu teachers try to teach kids what they should do. Good martial arts is proactive. So while ethics is important–and William should be commended for creating the very first ethics class in PUA–I think it has to go beyond that.
How do good kung-fu teachers do it?
I’m typing like crazy but would like to hear YOUR thoughts on this podcast or on other aspects of PUA. What do you think?
[Edit 10.11.08: William asked that I make a correction to say that it is an opinion of mine, rather than a fact, that APB's curriculum is similar to Mystery's. He pointed out that one can see APB's curriculum here, and that APB did in fact attribute his training to Mystery in the Asianweek article here. I still think the two systems look very similar, and I stand by my original statement that the information is hidden and should be more prominent in order to give proper credit and information to Mystery and the public, respectively. William and I are going to do a podcast at a later date in order to clear this up. But out of respect for William's teacher and friend, I'll state for now that my opinion is just an opinion, based on knowledge that is readily available to people who didn't go through the bootcamp.]
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Byron,
One detail you mentioned is actually incorrect. You said, “So why does William have to credit APB, while APB doesn’t have to credit the people who created his system? APB may have modified it, but it was there before he was in the game. APB seems to be a straight up guy, and if we presented this to him, I doubt he would challenge it.”
During the bootcamp class that I took, as well as during each subsequent bootcamp that I attended where the Asian Playboy was present (and also during offline conversations that had nothing to do with any bootcamp), the Asian Playboy acknowledges that Mystery was his original teacher. However, the Mystery Method, as it was taught to the Asian Playboy, is COMPLETELY different from the ABCs of Attraction Method.
If you would like me to itemize the differences of both methods in their entirety, we could do that over a podcast, because it would just be way too much typing for me to list out the differences here. However, here are the highlights:
1. The Mystery Method (source: The Mystery Method: How to Get Beautiful Women Into Bed)
a. teaches guys to use indirect body language and indirect conversational topics in order to initiate conversation with women
b. teaches guys to use various forms of “negs” (one variety is called the “shotgun neg”)
c. teaches guys to befriend and entertain an entire group of people that their girl is with, even if they’re only interested in that one girl.
d. teaches guys to raise a girl’s excitement, laughter, and energy level as much as is humanly possible, even if this is achieved by reciting canned routines that are downloaded from the internet
2. The ABCs of Attraction Method (www.abcofattraction.com)
a. teaches guys to use direct body language and to express direct romantic interest in a girl in order to initiate conversation with women
b. teaches guys NOT to use various forms of “negs” on 99% of girls that they meet
c. teaches guys to acknowledge the entire group of people that the girl is with, and give 99% of his attention to the girl he is actually interested in. This is the simply the honest way to go.
d. teaches guys to spend as little time as is necessary in raising a girl’s excitement laughter, and energy level. We teach guys to be fun and exciting, but we explain to them that this is only superficial, and that the most real part of an interaction with a girl is the comfort phase, where you share things about yourself and your personality with the girl. We focus the majority of the bootcamp explaining to guys how to convey themselves. We do not teach canned routines downloaded off the internet, except during the first night of the bootcamp for learning and training purposes. After that night is over, we instruct students to never used downloaded or canned material ever again.
These differences may seem subtle, but if you’ve ever taken the ABCs of Attraction class and watch us do this in person, I can assure you, you will never falsely believe that “The Mystery Method” and the “ABCs of Attraction Method” are in any way similar.
William,
Point taken; maybe I stand corrected. In my own defense, up until now, neither APB nor any of his students have been clear about exactly what it is that he does or where it came from.
For example, if you google “Asian Playboy Mystery,” there are NO references in at least the first couple Google pages to APB’s site (and maybe none period). This would indicate that he doesn’t publicly credit Mystery. So to outsiders, he’s definitely not crediting his source–it would be like writing a book and only secretly giving credit when talking to people who paid to meet you. When I mentioned Mystery method on your blog, you also didn’t let me in on the secret that Mystery is your Sigung. So if I’m wrong about the attribution, at least there’s a good reason!
Also, when a poor college student asked you, William, about what it is exactly that you do, you told him he had to spend $1,300 to find out. When someone on the 44s implied that PUA was teaching men to hurt women, you told the ladies that they’d have to fly to New York before making that assessment. When Minority Militant called in for your podcast, he asked about specifics, and you didn’t reveal (see the account by “Provost” here). Most of us see how APB uses the same terminology without crediting Mystery, and so it seems to most of us outsiders that it’s the same–which is a perfectly logical assumption, especially since honestly, it’s sometimes hard to get answers when we ask questions. So we’re all in the dark because we’ve been kept in the dark by the Asian PUAs! Does it make sense that some women view your method as suspicious? It’s suspicious because there isn’t full disclosure, and people feel that adherents are being evasive.
Your post above says a lot, more than anything that has been said so far. Seriously. So why didn’t you just say this all before???
Going on from here, can we agree on full disclosure of everything you guys do? I don’t think it’ll affect Playboy’s business either way: Mystery’s methods are totally public, and people still pay several grand to study with him.
I would definitely welcome the opportunity to do a podcast. Let me get together some questions to ask, and we can arrange it.
Byron,
Mystery was not my original teacher; he was the Asian Playboy’s original teacher.
You are correct in saying that I have not talked about the specifics of the curriculum of the ABCs of Attraction. Prior to reading your comment above, when I had
1. been asked by the college student
2. told the ladies of the 44′s that they’d have to fly to NY to observe a bootcamp in its entirety (which, by the way, I offered to pay for their airfare and 3 nights of hostel expenses)
3. didn’t reveal specifics to the Minority militant
I was originally thinking that any information I provide would be incomplete without the context of the bootcamp in its entirety. I still do, at this moment believe that this is the case, however, I am re-evaluating my original opinion in this regard due to what you’ve written here.
You asked, “Does it make sense that some women view your method as suspicious?” Actually, it doesn’t make sense to me, considering that I offered to pay for their airline ticket and 3-nights of hostel expenses for them to come to the next bootcamp and observe the curriculum for themselves.
You said, “It’s suspicious because there isn’t full disclosure, and people feel that adherents are being evasive.” However, by putting my money where my mouth is, and offering to pay for 100% of a person’s travel expenses, is actually not evasive, but quite the opposite.
You said, “Your post above says a lot, more than anything that has been said so far. Seriously. So why didn’t you just say this all before???” My answer: you are the first person to assume that the ABCs of Attraction method was created by someone other than the Asian Playboy. This is an incorrect statement that we should definitely discuss.
I’ll call you up to set up a time when we can talk about it. I also need to find out from the Asian Playboy if it’s ok for me to go into specifics without him on the phone. If that is not ok, then I’m going to drag his ass into the conversation and you can ask him yourself.
-William
Byron,
One more thing: You are 100% correct in saying that most of the terminology you see on the ABCs of Attraction forums, as well as on the Asian Playboy blog was originally invented by Mystery. Some examples are:
1. neg
2. 2-set
3. HB
4. amog
However, the actual ABCs of Attraction method was not created by Mystery. But, we’ll talk about that on an upcoming podcast
-William
William,
I appended a small edit to the post above, contingent on our next podcast. Looking forward to it!
Just a few things:
Mystery was not my original teacher; he was the Asian Playboy’s original teacher.
I know–that’s what Sigung means! Cantonese Power, man!
So if I studied under a guy who studied under Yip Man, Yip Man would be my Sigung. I don’t know if it applies if it’s considered a different system, but you get what I’m saying. You’re two generations removed from Mystery.
You asked, “Does it make sense that some women view your method as suspicious?” Actually, it doesn’t make sense to me, considering that I offered to pay for their airline ticket and 3-nights of hostel expenses for them to come to the next bootcamp and observe the curriculum for themselves.
You said, “It’s suspicious because there isn’t full disclosure, and people feel that adherents are being evasive.” However, by putting my money where my mouth is, and offering to pay for 100% of a person’s travel expenses, is actually not evasive, but quite the opposite.
I know you’re not trying to be evasive, but telling people that they have to fly out to NYC and spend three days straight with you and a bunch of guys isn’t exactly cost-free for most people. It’s almost like saying that they have to pay in order to get an answer out of you. I could use myself as an example–if you had made that offer to me, I wouldn’t be able to afford to take three days away from my family and job, even if you paid for my trip. It’s a big expense on your side, but it would be a greater expense on my side.
Plus, there’s the gender thing. As King4aDay says here (#38):
What worries me slightly is that this awkward offer is being extended by the very fellow who is teaching the course on how to better understand women! I may be wrong, but the way that you have couched this “offer of proof” demonstrates to me a very fundamental misunderstanding of how women are likely to react to certain male advances.
I probably wouldn’t be that harsh, but King is right. It would be like saying, “Go out with me, you’ll never know if I’m a great guy until you actually experience time with me.” Why would a girl do that? It’s suspicious; most are probably thinking, “I asked a simple question about his methods, and he wants me to fly all the way out to NY in order to get the answer? Why can’t he just tell me? Unless that PUA is hidin’ something…”
I can understand you asking for a woman to call into your podcast. That’s reasonable, and it’s wrong of them to call you names and attack your character. As Joe Biden says, “Say it to me!” But phone calls are quick and free. Flying and staying at a youth hostel aren’t.
I’ll call you up to set up a time when we can talk about it. I also need to find out from the Asian Playboy if it’s ok for me to go into specifics without him on the phone. If that is not ok, then I’m going to drag his ass into the conversation and you can ask him yourself.
Sounds like a plan! I actually am thinking right now about an interesting question: “What constitutes a “new” system as opposed to a modified system?
Byron,
Well, if flying out to New York City is no good, then you let me know which city I need to go to, and I’ll run a bootcamp there and then this won’t be a problem.
The main reason why I offered to pay a few hundred dollars to bring someone over here was to provide a way for people to make judgments about the program based on an actual knowledge of the contents of the program, rather than by making criticisms of the program from a place of not really knowing what is contained in it. You can tell me that I’m making an awkward offer, you can say that my offer is “bad” because it’ll cost you more than it costs me, and you can tell me that I’m suspicious. I’m sure you could come up with plenty of other reasons to not attend a bootcamp, even if I held one in your home city. But until you attend one, you can’t say that you know what is actually taught. We can come to a close approximation of that by talking about it on the podcast, so for now, or until you can attend a bootcamp, that will have to do.
-William
I hear you, but at the same time, King is right.
For me personally, if you had one in Portland, I personally would attend. Set up a time with me, have one in Portland…I’ll be there. Promise.
But that’s just me personally. Most people aren’t going to want to hang out with you unless they know more about you. Some of the women of the 44s, for example, don’t like you enough to hang out with you. They may (or may not) be interested in seeing how your PUA is activist in nature, and if you want to communicate it, you’ll have to convey it in words. That’s the bottom line. YOU have to make the sale before they’ll look more into it. You can’t propose they fly to New York, and then accuse them of evasiveness if they don’t show–the cost is just too high for them, and most of them don’t have the level of interest that you and I do.
This is the way it is with everything. It’s life. I could be the best, for example, financial planner in the world, but for me to say, “Just try me out” isn’t enough. If I’m in sales or leadership, I have to be the one to sell it before asking people to go through with it. I have to tell the story in words.
Does this make sense?
Jaehwan,
Yes, that makes perfect sense, but if they’re not willing to take the offer, then they should retract statements like “the ABCs of Attraction teaches men to harm women.” ‘cuz really, until they attend a bootcamp, they just don’t know, and they shouldn’t pretend that they do
-William
William,
In all fairness to them, I don’t think anyone explicitly said that it “teaches men to harm women.” I think some of them said that it teaches men to objectify women, which…it does.
Okay, I guess this is a discussion for the podcast too.
Looking forward to seeing your essays!
William,
Why are you devoting so much time talking to this guy Jaemo? Continue what you’re doing with the podcast and ignore this guy – all he does is complaint and criticize. I rather hear you talk with other PUAs or topics that can help asian guys instead of back and forth with Jaemo retarded complaints.
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Haha…”Jaemo!”
Check out my new piece here. Which school are you?
Dear yourmama,
One reason why I am having this ongoing conversation with Byron is because he is the only man who is naturally good with women who seeks to understand me, a man who has never been naturally good with women. I feel that some benefit can come out of my ongoing dialogue with him.
I’m glad you like the content of the betterasianman.com podcast, and thanks for your support.
-William